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lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128106036.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:37:33 jimmyrussels [464fa630@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.79.166.48] has joined #lisp 01:38:20 peterhil` [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 01:41:26 -!- jimmyrussels [464fa630@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.79.166.48] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:46:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-60-177.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 01:46:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-60-177.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 01:46:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 01:52:58 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-180.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:54:59 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-180.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:56:13 -- 01:57:27 is that like --MARK--? 02:00:03 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-mvkonmzssmdizgnc] has joined #lisp 02:01:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:01:43 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@188-143-60-177.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 02:01:43 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 02:01:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-60-177.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 02:01:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 02:01:51 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2A232.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:02:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:03:24 Finished translating functional RB tree into lisp. Knockoff of this: http://web.archive.org/web/20100629235553/http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~dons/data/RedBlackTree.html 02:03:50 Wondering whether to put it in my heresy library alongside the "const hashtable" (knockoff of the clojure trie container) or something standalone. 02:04:00 pnq [~nick@ACA2A232.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 02:04:48 -!- lemonade` [~lemonade_@pool-71-178-182-87.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 02:06:45 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@206.205.176.2] has joined #lisp 02:09:00 jlongster [~user@pool-108-4-74-122.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:46 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 02:20:14 sizz [~sizz@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:50 irpanech0 [~user@24.68.147.165] has joined #lisp 02:29:52 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 02:37:02 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:37:22 ton [~MTX@119.42.98.252] has joined #lisp 02:37:49 *ton* ( : m[T]x :ï: Closing Script ( ºêÒºÒÂ..ä»áÅéǹêÒÒ... ) :ï: sCript : ) 02:37:49 -!- ton [~MTX@119.42.98.252] has quit [] 02:41:53 kevin01123 [~user@97-91-232-86.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:41:57 -!- kevin01123 [~user@97-91-232-86.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has left #lisp 02:42:12 kevin01123 [~user@97-91-232-86.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:43:13 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:47:32 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:48:18 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@206.205.176.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:49:19 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.221] has joined #lisp 02:56:53 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:59:44 -!- kevin01123 [~user@97-91-232-86.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:00:32 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 03:01:44 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483B23D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:04:36 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.23.126.80] has joined #lisp 03:06:45 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:06:54 jake__ [~jake@74.213.226.253] has joined #lisp 03:08:42 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.126.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:12:07 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.64.170] has joined #lisp 03:16:23 -!- Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.14.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:17:40 Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.12.19] has joined #lisp 03:17:56 francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176172076.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:18:22 -!- tensorpudding_ is now known as tensorpudding 03:31:16 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2A232.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:35:02 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:35:36 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:36:42 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 03:37:39 gendl [~gendl@c-68-41-192-171.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:00 Hi, does anybody know a portable way to find out the full pathname to the currently running Lisp executable? 03:38:20 or just its directory component? 03:38:37 in Allegro CL you can say (translate-logical-pathname "sys:") 03:38:39 gendl: there's no portable way: what's the pathname of the Movitz executable? 03:39:06 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:42:03 makes sense. I guess that always has to go thru an implementation-dependent layer. Will do. 03:42:23 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.221] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:43:22 gendl: that wouldn't prevent the specification of semi-standard, ie. if such a thing exists, then it should be available with such and such API. 03:43:35 but that would represent a lot of hypothetical work. 03:45:03 teggi [~teggi@113.172.63.246] has joined #lisp 03:45:08 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-18-66.washdc.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 03:45:47 -!- springz is now known as springz-lunch 03:51:41 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:52:20 well I'm putting it in the :glisp package for gendl right now, at the moment I only cover Allegro CL, LispWorks, and SBCL. 03:52:32 So, in Allegro CL we have (translate-logical-pathname "sys:") 03:52:51 does anyone know what that would be in LispWorks and SBCL? 03:52:57 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:53:35 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 03:53:58 I'm calling it glisp:executable-homedir-pathname 03:56:53 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:57:03 gendl: I see sb-ext:*core-pathname* but nothing for the executable in the manual? 03:57:47 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.65.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:57:47 is that core normally in a different directory from the executable? 03:57:49 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 03:58:08 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.194] has joined #lisp 03:58:12 -!- razieliyo [~user@unaffiliated/razieliyo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:59:29 gendl: I think so. It is on my system, and I haven't done anything particularly unique. 03:59:54 I see there is also a "sys" logical pathname host defined on SBCL just like in Allegro 04:00:16 that's intended to point at sources, I believe 04:00:24 but the intention is for it to point to location of the system's sources, not so much the exe of a deployed build 04:00:39 Oh, there you go then? 04:01:05 Ok i'm going with sb-ext:*core-pathname* until something better comes along... 04:03:27 gendl: pjb: Make it a CDR ;) http://cdr.eurolisp.org 04:04:44 well, pjb's right, there's no reason the lisp has to have a place in a filesystem. presumably it would be more of a trivial-foo layer 04:06:25 -!- holycow [~fekoff@69.172.160.67] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:06:58 Bike: another non-standard layer without a fixed API. I know it's not as complex as usocket or bordeaux-threads but it's still just a library without any means to ensure compatibility between versions. 04:07:16 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:07:45 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:57 Bike: If some system needs to know lisp's place in a filesystem it's obviously incompatible to a lisp which doesn't have a place. So it won't matter if the CDR won't be implemented on such lisps. Besides I don't think there is a modern implementation which doesn't have a place. 04:10:46  and on LispWorks it looks like we have *LISPWORKS-DIRECTORY* 04:11:17 I'll go through my whole :glisp layer at some point and see what all might qualify for CDRs. 04:12:31 naryl: Have the user tell it. 04:12:49 Depending on what place means - do you mean 'current working directory'? 04:13:34 neo^ [75db0491@gateway/web/freenode/ip.117.219.4.145] has joined #lisp 04:14:18 slightly offtopic, but has anyone ever come across architecture notes on the symbolics machines? 04:16:53 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.64.170] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:18:36 I'm just using that "place" for runtime builds where i have some support files (e.g. .js and .css files for a web app), and I always know where they will be relative to the lisp's executable directory. 04:18:49 So I want to have a reliable way to find out that pathname from within the app. 04:19:22 without depending on what the current-working-directory happens to be (just in case that got changed around for some reason, or the whole thing got started from some unknown current-working-directory). 04:20:19 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.64.170] has joined #lisp 04:22:57 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:15 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@187.57.79.42] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:23:28 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:23:41 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 04:26:07 -!- hyoyoung [seoz@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has quit [Quit: quit] 04:26:21 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:30:36 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:30:48 gendl: furthermore, it's really hard to determine on a POSIX system. Eg. on MacOSX, the user could move the application bundle after having launched it. 04:31:06 gendl: on unix systems you can move or delete files while they're used. 04:32:56 -!- neo^ [75db0491@gateway/web/freenode/ip.117.219.4.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:32:58 When in doubt, ask the user to tell you. 04:33:17 If that gets annoying, they can automate the answer with a script. 04:33:43 Yeah, let's report the breakages onto the users. 04:33:44 neo^ [75db0854@gateway/web/freenode/ip.117.219.8.84] has joined #lisp 04:34:19 It's a matter of policy vs. mechanism. You're not smart enough to figure it out automatically, so have whatever runs you do it. 04:34:38 That's good to keep in mind. But for server applications, moving the executable around is not so much of an issue. 04:35:17 gendl: server applications can be launched with a script that tells them where to find their files (which may not be the same place as the executable for should-be obvious reasons). 04:35:22 The same applies there; your installer can set up a script to tell it. 04:35:30 Avoid magic. 04:35:50 i added (setq slime-startup-animation 1) to my .emacs yet the prompt doesn't animate when it appears 04:36:05 yep, avoiding magic is a good iea. 04:36:06 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 04:36:06 idea* 04:36:39 it is tempting to try to build everything into the executable so the startup script can be a one-liner. 04:36:52 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:37:23 because I already have what is essentially a startup script which is my restart-init-function in the lisp. 04:37:25 That's fine -- command line arguments are enough. 04:37:43 keeping track of too much startup thingies can make me more insane than i already am 04:38:16 You could use an oracle, but that might be more trouble than it is worth. 04:38:35 Well, an internal oracle is probably simple enough. 04:38:50 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 04:38:57 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:39:06 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:41:23 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@43-65-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:12 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 04:45:32 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 04:46:14 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7210.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:46:39 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:47:47 gendl: another example, is when running in a chroot jail. 04:48:58 lz1dec [~d@50-0-150-70.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:31 got it, slime-banner 04:50:20 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:32 asvil [~asvil@178.121.217.32] has joined #lisp 04:52:00 efazati [~efazati@unaffiliated/efazati] has joined #lisp 04:53:10 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:53:24 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 04:57:22 -!- lz1dec [~d@50-0-150-70.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:57:57 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:44 lz1dec [~d@50-0-150-70.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:36 -!- sizz [~sizz@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 05:03:58 -!- lz1dec [~d@50-0-150-70.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:05:46 -!- springz-lunch is now known as springz 05:08:12 -!- btbngr [~btbngr@host86-171-39-175.range86-171.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:09:10 btbngr [~btbngr@host86-171-39-175.range86-171.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 05:10:24 dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:39 holycow [~fekoff@69.172.160.67] has joined #lisp 05:13:21 nikodemus [~nikodemus@176-93-191-189.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 05:20:41 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 05:22:20 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:25:48 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:26:58 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176172076.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 05:28:01 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:33:07 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-kzhhmtznzyvcvptd] has joined #lisp 05:33:22 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-kzhhmtznzyvcvptd] has quit [Changing host] 05:33:22 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:36:52 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:40:03 nipra [~nipra@125.20.84.54] has joined #lisp 05:41:09 Can someone instruct me, or point me to clear documentation, about how to profile SLIME? I am mostly sure that that is the cause of very annoying delays that continue to occur. 05:42:44 vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-146-140.dsl.sil.at] has joined #lisp 05:45:04 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 05:45:04 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 05:45:04 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 05:52:18 Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 05:52:21 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has left #lisp 05:52:53 -!- BBShortc` [~user@mar92-5-82-225-147-167.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:54:29 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:57:58 tensorpudding_ [~michael@108.87.21.144] has joined #lisp 05:58:15 stassats` [~stassats@pppoe.178-66-25-220.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 05:58:25 -!- stassats` [~stassats@pppoe.178-66-25-220.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Changing host] 05:58:26 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:01:32 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.126.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:04:20 mucker [~mucker@183.83.21.171] has joined #lisp 06:04:30 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 06:05:37 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:05:52 antonv [~user@93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp 06:08:28 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 06:08:33 -!- ebw`` [~user@krlh-4d0202be.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 06:08:53 Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:17 fe[nl]ix: sorry about being so picky 06:10:34 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@176-93-191-189.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:15:21 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:16:23 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 06:17:26 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.47.168] has joined #lisp 06:17:27 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 06:20:32 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 06:20:39 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-68-41-192-171.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:23:41 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:25:02 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.47.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:27:01 kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:21 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 06:30:45 -!- antonv [~user@93.125.49.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:30:46 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 06:30:55 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:31:14 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-fofceygjxmkgnfvg] has joined #lisp 06:31:32 -!- trebor_home [~email@dslb-088-069-155-235.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:33:29 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:37:01 Quadrescence: does ELP not work for you ? 06:38:15 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:38:37 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 06:38:38 -!- Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.12.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:41:56 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 06:42:26 egnarts-ms, I guess I don't know how to use it. 06:43:09 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:44:51 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:45:13 -!- neo^ [75db0854@gateway/web/freenode/ip.117.219.8.84] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:46:02 Quadrescence: i started by just reading the header of "elp.el".. it seemed to show me the way of using ELP 06:47:05 tensorpudding__ [~michael@99.148.192.25] has joined #lisp 06:47:11 ELP just works by wrapping symbol definition of a function symbol into the code that performs metric calculations 06:47:27 * by wrapping function definition 06:47:56 it changes (symbol-function ) of the symbol when you call elp-instrument, 06:48:13 and restores that in elp-restore, AFAIR 06:49:50 dnm: ping 06:50:08 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@108.87.21.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:50:19 -!- irpanech0 [~user@24.68.147.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:52:19 clisp doesn't have proper support for threads. it's experimental 06:52:24 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-gfwndzplnihsfvof] has joined #lisp 06:53:36 experimental doesn't make it any less proper. 06:56:04 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-108-4-74-122.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:56:05 do threads at least *work*? 06:57:53 Sure. 06:58:30 clisp uses pthreads. i think i can compile to c and it will work on most platforms 06:59:19 i have yet to learn much lisp. i am considering using it for a project. 06:59:40 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@43-65-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has left #lisp 07:00:20 Why do you want threads? :) 07:00:24 (progn (mt:make-thread (lambda () (loop repeat 10 do (sleep 3) (princ ".") (finish-output)))) (loop repeat 10 do (sleep 3) (princ "x") (finish-output))) prints: x.x..x.xx..xx..x.x.x ; and returns NIL after 30 seconds. 07:00:27 perhaps i will try to do test cases of all the functionality to avoid wasting too much time 07:00:49 or try another implementation that works on the platforms you care about. 07:00:51 some basic "will it work in lisp" tests 07:01:35 it seems like clisp is the most well-developed lisp and most widely compatible 07:01:55 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:01:58 adnap: what makes you think that? 07:02:01 clisp can be compile to c/c++ with ecl 07:02:06 and it is standardized 07:02:07 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 07:02:16 kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-30-213.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 07:02:16 adnap: no, clisp cannot compile to C or C++. 07:02:25 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:36 hi 07:02:37 pjb: http://ecls.sourceforge.net/ 07:02:38 clisp only compiles to byte code (but then, it can use a JIT Compiler to convert the byte code to native code). 07:02:44 the only lisp we discuss here are implementation of the Common Lisp standard, including clisp and ecl. 07:02:46 adnap: ECL is not clisp! 07:02:47 pjb: am i mistaken? 07:02:53 adnap: yes entirely. 07:02:55 are there lisp videos online? 07:02:59 adnap: you're confusing implementations and languages. 07:03:04 i.e. they all are standardised. 07:03:13 theos: there are. 07:03:29 pjb: oh, you're right 07:03:30 pjb great! can you provide some links please? 07:03:36 theos: no I can't. 07:03:39 :/ 07:03:40 theos: hint: I'm not google. 07:04:02 pjb unfortunately, google cant either :/ 07:04:05 so, when i said "it seems like clisp is the most well-developed lisp and most widely compatible", i meant the common lisp standard 07:04:19 Call it CL. 07:04:28 what i mean is that i think i should code to the common lisp standard 07:04:30 adnap: or COMMON-LISP. 07:04:52 adnap: the Common Lisp standard has absolutely no provision for multi-threading. 07:04:53 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:05:16 adnap: if you want to deal with threads, you will have to use implementation specific extensions (or use the portability package BORDEAUX-THREADS). 07:05:21 The CL standard doesn't have threads. Many free and ported implementations offer them as extensions. Same for proprietary implementations. 07:05:30 oh 07:05:43 CCL and SBCL are common choices when you want threads in an open source implementation. 07:05:45 i wonder if ecl has threads 07:05:49 it does 07:05:55 i need to use ecl 07:05:58 i'm targeting android 07:06:02 adnap: almost all CL implementations have threads. 07:06:11 https://github.com/ageneau/ecl-android 07:06:11 adnap: check: what-implementation is at telnet://clis.informatimago.com:8101 07:06:18 clozure cl also has an android port 07:06:29 telnet, how quaint 07:06:41 stassats`: don't complain, it's in the cloud! 07:06:53 yeah. wtf 07:07:36 Why do you need to use ECL for android? 07:07:39 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:07:50 because java is too mainstream 07:08:02 for what? 07:08:32 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@188.19.233.30] has joined #lisp 07:08:38 Zhivago: because adnap wants to see if CL can work for him... What are you going to suggest, that he first code his own port? 07:08:46 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-30-213.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:09:21 i don't know how to use telnet :( 07:09:23 i would say that CL is a bad choice for android, at least for the current phones 07:09:29 i tried "telnet clis.informatimago.com:8101" 07:09:39 adnap: replace : with space 07:09:55 cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 07:10:04 His implication is that only ECL runs on android. 07:10:16 I don't see why clisp wouldn't also run, for example. 07:10:19 stassats`: why do you say that? 07:10:26 adnap: man telnet 07:10:47 pjb: no need 07:10:59 adnap: because the current phones are too low-powered 07:10:59 although, wtf is this 07:11:13 stassats`: what does that have to do with lisp? 07:11:50 adnap: it helps you select CL implementations. 07:12:02 pjb: i think i will consult the internet! 07:12:06 Zhivago: there's also ecl. I don't see why you assume that porting to android is trivial. From the sidelines, it appears to require a lot of mangling compared to other linux platforms, even from C. 07:12:06 adnap: that's what you should ask yourself, it's not me who's targeting android 07:12:07 adnap: so answer 0 to any question, but that about the threads, and see what implementations have threads. 07:12:22 -!- cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Client Quit] 07:12:32 * There's also CCL, that is. 07:12:33 stassats`: are you trying to make an actual point? 07:12:42 hyoyoung [seoz@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has joined #lisp 07:13:17 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:22 "don't target android" 07:13:24 stassats`: i just wanted to know what you meant about phones being too low-powered and you didn't explain 07:13:38 i don't want anymore 07:13:42 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.64.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:13:45 alright 07:14:48 well, my strategy is to do the bare minimum programming to make some test cases to see if the project will actually work 07:14:51 nydel0g [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:19 and if it fails to work, i can at least document my work so that it might help people 07:15:30 so others know whether it's feasible 07:15:33 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 07:15:39 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 07:15:48 i'm at least interested enough in lisp to spend some time learning and programming 07:15:57 i already know that it isn't 07:16:03 isn't what? 07:16:07 cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 07:16:10 feasible? 07:16:16 yes 07:16:25 but you aren't making an argument 07:16:34 so i have no reason to accept your claim 07:16:46 whatever you wish 07:16:59 stassats`: istr p_l saying it was practical with ecl. 07:17:03 benny` [~benny@i577A7E12.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:17:13 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.64.170] has joined #lisp 07:17:39 -!- tensorpudding__ is now known as tensorpudding 07:18:21 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has joined #lisp 07:18:28 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.64.170] has quit [Client Quit] 07:18:29 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-230-161-149.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:19:37 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:19:59 -!- nydel0g [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:20:04 pjb: it told me ecl! 07:20:24 pjb: just like i was going to use since it's the only thing that will compile for android :p 07:20:52 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.217.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:21:08 wait 07:21:09 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:09 07:08 < stassats`> clozure cl also has an android port 07:21:14 forgot 07:22:54 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:23:26 there's no official support for ecl to android, and ecl isn't the most stable implementation, and in my experience on desktop ECL is slower than CCL, and seeing how ccl on android isn't very fast on quite a modern CPU, i'm not sure ECL can be used for anything substantially interactive 07:23:42 unless, of course, all you do is calling android API, but then why use lisp? 07:23:55 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.160.223.238] has joined #lisp 07:24:01 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:24:03 mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-hudd6-0-0-cust741.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:24:28 i was thinking of doing the gui in java and the underling program in lisp. i think someone is working on android java bindings for lisp though 07:24:56 I don't think that you've researched this very well. 07:25:03 *underlying 07:25:10 Have a look at SL4A. 07:25:33 It runs cpython, ruby, etc on android as native programs using an rpc bridge for api. 07:26:22 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:27:07 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.192.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:27:28 here: http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.ecl.general/8306 07:28:13 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.64.170] has joined #lisp 07:28:27 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:29:36 antonv [~user@46.53.195.42] has joined #lisp 07:30:50 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:03 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@188.19.233.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:31:20 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:31:51 -!- jake__ [~jake@74.213.226.253] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 07:32:12 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 07:32:35 -!- ofan [~ofan@unaffiliated/ofan] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 07:32:53 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 07:35:19 ofan [~ofan@unaffiliated/ofan] has joined #lisp 07:36:05 stassats`: ecl-android can created a cross-compiled binary for android. so i think i can write a java app that creates a gui and invokes the binary 07:38:15 good morning 07:38:38 mvilleneuve: morning -_- 07:38:44 mvilleneuve: it's night here 07:38:47 adnap: I think that perhaps you are hopelessly naive about how android works. 07:38:50 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-38-172.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:51 i am sleepy 07:38:54 adnap: But, best of luck. 07:41:10 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:42:38 ur5us [~ur5us@253.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 07:42:46 insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:45:19 tensorpudding_! 07:45:27 *adnap* eats tensorpudding_ 07:46:11 *robot-beethoven* is waiting for his Lisp Machine Phone 07:46:20 that would be cool 07:46:53 also, phone designs suck. phones should be much bigger (ti-83-sized) with big keyboards 07:47:23 and if you don't have a big pocket, fuck you! 07:47:38 bringing up to your ear too fast should bring you close to a concussion 07:47:42 or no pockets at all in the case of some girls i know 07:47:54 *adnap* laughs 07:48:34 can phone designs be left out of #lisp? 07:48:39 sorry 07:49:02 "bringing one up to your ear" 07:49:02 (at some point in the future, smartphones may weigh less than a ton and be as small as a refridgerator) 07:49:51 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 07:50:29 -!- efazati [~efazati@unaffiliated/efazati] has left #lisp 07:51:47 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-mvkonmzssmdizgnc] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:53:40 -!- alvis```` [~user@tx-184-6-180-2.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:55:25 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 07:55:38 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 07:58:36 could anyoen think of an idiom similar to "that's the spirit!" ? 07:59:25 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:59:27 also if anyone knows of idiomatic expression thesaurus please let me know? while we're on the subject. 08:06:47 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.21.171] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:07:17 -!- pspace [~andrew@c-24-5-81-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 08:09:08 that's not in the spirit of topic 08:09:53 mucker [~mucker@183.83.51.123] has joined #lisp 08:12:03 stassats, you've helped me a few times at least, don't you know i'm always working in vain on a language parsing chat repl like eliza but jungian? 08:12:32 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:12:40 nydel: this channel is about lisp programming language, not an english language consultancy 08:14:11 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-35.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:19:50 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:20:36 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 08:20:42 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-107-122-25.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:21:37 irpanech0 [~user@24.68.147.165] has joined #lisp 08:24:44 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.160.223.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:25:57 similajau [~similajau@118.100.225.20] has joined #lisp 08:26:33 -!- similajau [~similajau@118.100.225.20] has quit [Client Quit] 08:26:58 stassats, of that i'm aware. there just isn't a lot going on so i thought i'd try informality out. it didn't go over well, if you were wondering. 08:27:07 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-11-139.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:29:19 graspee [~graspee@02dd1c10.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 08:29:45 TimKack [~tkack@c-2ec2134b-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 08:30:12 Radium [~rajesh.na@117.220.48.26] has joined #lisp 08:30:20 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:32:33 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:37:50 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 08:38:07 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:40:56 -!- nipra [~nipra@125.20.84.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:42:19 kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-30-213.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 08:42:32 nipra [~nipra@125.20.84.54] has joined #lisp 08:44:20 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:49:45 gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has joined #lisp 08:50:04 -!- benny` is now known as benny 08:57:10 anyone know when dnm gets on? 08:57:12 interesting implementation of value cells (for flat closures with assignment) in Lua. Closures point to shared value cells that themselves point to the data. While the original activation record is active, the value cell points directly on the stack, and then to the heap when the frame is popped. Not sure what I think of the trade-off: double indirection in closures, but no indirection in the original function. 08:57:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:58:03 how do they move it from the stack to the heap? 08:58:38 or do they allocate their stack from the heap? 08:58:56 ezakimak: the value cell itself is heap-allocated. 08:59:14 It just initially points to the stack, and the stack value is copied to the heap before popping it off. 08:59:43 so function return becomes more expensive? 08:59:55 (but only if there's a closure?) 09:00:09 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 09:00:22 no gc needed w/o a closure for those data either 09:00:49 it's easy to make sure no value cell is allocated for bindings that aren't closed over, in either case. 09:01:21 i gotta think that double negative through. 09:03:42 ezakimak: more classically, a mutable cell is allocated to hold the binding's value, and everything (closures and the original frame both) indirects through it; everyone goes through a single indirection. 09:08:47 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d142-179-78-231.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 09:09:41 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-35.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:18:45 dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 09:18:52 morning 09:20:12 -!- mikaelj [~tic@c83-249-198-162.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:20:20 add^_ [~add^_^@m90-131-121-26.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 09:20:46 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 09:25:09 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 09:27:16 -!- gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:28:01 gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has joined #lisp 09:28:38 -!- nipra [~nipra@125.20.84.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:29:43 mikaelj [~tic@c83-249-198-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:29:51 ccomendant [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ccomendant] has joined #lisp 09:30:44 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:35:40 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:35:51 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:40:16 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:43:12 ... the neat bit here is that a clever GC could switch to regular single-indirection code in due time. 09:44:01 qnavry [~cow@c114-76-15-67.eburwd4.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:45:25 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:46:13 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 09:47:57 -!- irpanech0 [~user@24.68.147.165] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:50:06 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 09:53:55 [SLB] [~slabua@host174-173-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:53:55 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host174-173-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 09:53:55 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 10:00:21 -!- holycow [~fekoff@69.172.160.67] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:13:23 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 10:14:51 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Quit: howl's moving server] 10:16:38 jewel [~jewel@183.62.46.82] has joined #lisp 10:20:01 Avishek12 [Avishek12@117.201.102.228] has joined #lisp 10:26:20 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:30:58 Yuuhi [benni@p5483AE88.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:44 paul0 [~paul0@189.115.60.104] has joined #lisp 10:33:18 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:33:40 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:39:32 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-38-172.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:40:34 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #lisp 10:40:34 -!- jewel [~jewel@183.62.46.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:43:30 -!- Radium [~rajesh.na@117.220.48.26] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:47:14 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:48:32 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:49:51 Radium [~rajesh.na@117.220.48.26] has joined #lisp 10:50:18 at a risk of being ridiculed by SBCL implementers, IMHO challenge going forward with regards to GC is getting rid of stop the world, and towards continuous or parallel gc... 10:50:40 clock race had pretty much reached the limit, and number of cores race started 10:50:46 there's no silver bullet when it comes to gc 10:50:55 as always Ada and all the parralel language inventors were 20 years too early 10:51:11 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:51:25 you could split the heap up and thus gc different zones in parallel 10:52:21 always tradeoffs no matter what you try though 10:52:35 ezakimak: Like Erlang. But it has isolated threads (processes). In CL There is no memory isolation. 10:52:41 *maxm-* was looking at sources of what became dylan runtime, and all the gray vs black vs white arenas screwed with my head until I just rm -rf'ed it before I started writing my own lisp 10:52:56 good decision in retrospect 10:53:03 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 10:53:03 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 10:53:03 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:53:12 "leave to others what they do better then you" 10:53:26 yeah, but you probably learned a lot trying 10:53:36 you could read a paper or two instead, learning GCs from the sources is rarely a good ideea 10:54:02 hard to see the algorithms from under the optimizations 10:54:08 Ulysses_ [~Editor@41.160.19.147] has joined #lisp 10:54:29 it had very good documentation from what I remember, not just the sources.. It was a C++ library for building GC's 10:54:29 nipra [~nipra@125.20.84.54] has joined #lisp 10:54:44 hey all 10:56:28 -!- Ulysses_ is now known as Editor 10:57:05 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:57:12 -!- Editor [~Editor@41.160.19.147] has left #lisp 10:58:06 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:58:23 -!- Radium [~rajesh.na@117.220.48.26] has quit [] 11:04:26 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:10:45 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@253.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:14:35 -!- vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-146-140.dsl.sil.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:14:35 Radium [~rajesh.na@117.220.48.26] has joined #lisp 11:15:13 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Quit: poof] 11:15:30 vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-146-140.dsl.sil.at] has joined #lisp 11:17:24 -!- antonv [~user@46.53.195.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:27:52 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@111.134.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:32:10 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 11:32:38 maxm-: sure. Problem is, this is a Hard Problem. 11:35:42 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 11:36:38 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 11:36:48 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m90-131-121-26.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 11:36:57 concurrent/incremental GCs are complex and tend to slow the mutator down, and making parallel GC faster than single-threaded code requires a lot of thinking. A friend of mine asked Damien Doligez why OCaml doesn't have that sort of fancy GC when he wrote some nice papers (including his thesis) on the topic. Answer: they're too complex to debug and work with. 11:37:43 it'd make sense to get a reasonable serial gc first 11:38:41 stassats: yup. 11:38:53 It might even be designed to be reasonably parallelised 11:38:57 asvil [~asvil@178.121.217.32] has joined #lisp 11:39:14 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-25-220.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:39:27 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:40:08 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-25-220.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 11:40:17 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:40:25 and it's still memory-constrained, so throwing many threads at it won't help that much 11:42:05 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 11:43:12 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:43:31 hi,which library do you use to create images?i have tried ch-image,but it's seems slow.And i failed to install cl-gd through quicklisp 11:43:52 running the cl-gd-test,it says:Test 1 failed with the following error: Can't resolve foreign symbol "gdImageCreate"... 11:44:04 cl-gd requires gd library installed on linux 11:44:06 minion: vecto? 11:44:08 vecto: Vecto is a graphics library that uses cl-vectors and ZPNG to draw vector graphics to PNG files. http://www.cliki.net/vecto 11:44:49 maxm-: i'm using gentoo,the gd library installed on my linux is 2.0.35 11:45:48 cfy: well this is weird then. H4ns is current maintainer I think, he should be active pretty soon being in europe 11:46:07 maxm-: did i need to enable static-libs? 11:46:26 no, cl-gd will try to load .so file 11:46:37 you should have /usr/lib[64]/libgd.so.2 11:47:24 maxm-: oh.thanks.yes,it links to libgd.so.2.0.0, 11:47:33 /usr/lib64/libgd.so.2.0.0: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, stripped 11:49:49 cfy: that should be good. did you build the cl-gd-glue.so thing? i'm not sure whether ql:quickload does that, probably not. 11:50:23 H4ns: no,i don't have cl-gd-glue.so 11:50:42 cfy: go into the cl-gd source directory and type "make", then you should be all set. 11:50:53 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:51:11 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 11:51:15 *H4ns* opens an issue to automate that 11:51:40 H4ns: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129438 11:51:45 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 11:51:54 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.12.190] has quit [Quit: xyxu] 11:52:14 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has joined #lisp 11:52:26 H4ns: oh,my systems seems not have libiconv 11:52:27 remove -liconv, it is no longer needed. 11:52:58 that is already gone in the git version, but the release is still pending, sorry. 11:53:25 -!- Avishek12 [Avishek12@117.201.102.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:54:32 H4ns: thanks,it can pass most of tests now :D http://paste.lisp.org/display/129439 11:54:33 Avishek12 [Avishek12@117.201.105.86] has joined #lisp 11:55:12 cfy: don't worry about the failing tests. 11:56:51 H4ns: okay:) BTW,what's the speed of cl-gd? 11:57:00 cfy: what do you mean by that? 11:57:51 pnq [~nick@ACA29A9D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 11:58:04 cfy: gd uses well-tuned common gif, png, jpg and tiff libraries and is written in c. cl-gd is just a small wrapper around gd, so it is pretty fast for most operations. 11:58:13 H4ns: nothing,just curious 11:58:26 H4ns: oh,got it:D 11:58:37 cfy: if you want to do per-pixel operations, use do-pixels 11:58:38 xyxu [~Adium@58.41.12.190] has joined #lisp 11:59:29 -!- Avishek12 [Avishek12@117.201.105.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:59:31 H4ns: got it 12:00:56 *maxm-* had integrated it with repl-pictures so I can do stuff like (simulate-scenario whatever) returning trading system equity curve as a picture, that gets inserted right into repl 12:02:12 *maxm-* shudders at the enormity of eventual task of implementing repl/like listener directly in his app, which IMHO is needed if I go in teh direction of selling it 12:02:17 maxm- similar to what racket does? 12:02:34 maxm-: that's what CLIM is all about. 12:04:12 kennyd: never seen how racket does it, look into contrib/slime-repl-pictures in slime. Basically instead of # you see an image in repl 12:07:49 actually repl-pictures in not in regular slime it seems.. honestly don't remember where I got it, or if I implemented it myself.. I think I got it from someone pasting it 12:08:31 if you want it I'll send it 12:09:53 sure I'd like to have a look. I was planning to do something similar. sounds pretty useful when work with images etc 12:10:42 -!- xyxu [~Adium@58.41.12.190] has left #lisp 12:10:45 xyxu [~Adium@58.41.12.190] has joined #lisp 12:10:49 right. a slime integration for cl-gd would be tres chique 12:11:42 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:59 could it be easily extended to draw my own objects? 12:12:36 unwritten code can do anything! 12:12:52 Except for make a decent cup of tea. 12:13:07 damn it, dropbox interface is so un-intuitive 12:13:13 Zhivago: that depends on the i/o capabilites of the machine, and your perception of "decent". 12:13:16 where is "gimme url for this public folder" thing 12:13:35 Probably somewhere in a right-click. 12:14:28 ok https://www.dropbox.com/sh/asj7pcksp72un8t/iIXtyT4HjO 12:14:35 thought it could give links to individual folders 12:14:43 harish [~harish@155.69.194.6] has joined #lisp 12:15:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:15:16 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:17:19 to use add to slime-setup modules list, to return picture (values 'whatever (make-instance 'swank::picture :url "/tmp/whatever.png") 12:17:42 url is misnamed, its passed directly to 1st arg of Emacs (create-image ) 12:17:52 thanks ill give it a try when i'm at home 12:18:37 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:21:21 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:21:47 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:23:49 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:24:03 mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:24:53 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:26:23 what would be the best way to fix the warning in http://paste.lisp.org/display/129440 once and for all (i.e. in cl-ppcre) 12:26:37 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 12:27:03 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 12:27:03 register-groups-bind is handy, but it is also a bit unidiomatic and the fact that the variables can end up being bound to nil is downright annoying, i think. 12:27:48 (in particular, as register-groups-bind does not evaluate the body if there is no match, so a mismatch between registers and variables seems like being an indicator of a bug) 12:28:09 hi, I have an array with a fill-pointer like "(make-array 0 :fill-pointer t)", I use vector-push-extend to add elements to it. When I delete an element with (setf vector (remove foo vector)), then that new vector is not vector-push-extendable anymore, how should I do this? 12:29:01 -!- hyPiRion [~jeannikl@178.21.132.8] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:29:06 hyPiRion [~jeannikl@178.21.132.8] has joined #lisp 12:29:31 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-25-220.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:29:33 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-25-220.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:29:33 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-25-220.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 12:29:37 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-25-220.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 12:29:44 LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-162-153.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:30:01 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:30:03 ah, with delete instead of remove it works 12:30:25 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 12:30:42 H4ns: there are strange interactions between alternation/repetition and registers. 12:31:48 pkhuong: so you are saying that there are legitimate cases where a register may end up as nil? 12:32:12 H4ns: yup. 12:32:37 pkhuong: so maybe a empty-register-value keyword argument would be in order? 12:32:41 I don't know that I've seen any code use that in the wild, though (modulo the fact that we can't express grouping without registering) 12:34:08 H4ns: of course 12:34:32 (?:.*) match will be the entire thing, but register empty.. Unless I forgot my regexp 12:34:34 H4ns: I would go for a form. 12:34:35 or simply .* 12:35:28 maxm-: groups are not captured and thus are not bound to registers, as far as i know. 12:35:41 -!- xyxu [~Adium@58.41.12.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:35:53 ok, I must have misunderstood groups vs registers... Not familiar with cl:ppcre terminology on it 12:36:02 H4ns: right, there's simply no register in this case, not an empty or unmatched one. 12:36:39 wtf is registers then? man perlre /register shows nothing 12:37:34 *H4ns* is still not convinced that nil is a good default value for unbound registers 12:37:40 H4ns: how about (r-g-bind ([var | (var default-form)] ...) ...)? 12:38:02 pkhuong: nice. that makes a lot of sense 12:38:10 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:12 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:38:16 pkhuong: thanks! 12:38:24 -!- guther_ [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-trkyujrqcmcuvqja] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:38:44 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-negbnrfihgqrxrrf] has joined #lisp 12:38:50 H4ns: maybe add &optional (var default matched-p) 12:38:51 gl. If I wanted to make it SBCL-friendly, I'd find some way to default the default-form to (error ...) ;) 12:39:52 pkhuong: i'd want to be able to specify a form to be executed when there was no match. currently, the body is just silently skipped, which i find rather annoying. 12:39:59 maxm-: perlre calls them capture buffers. 12:40:14 H4ns: ah, that's something else (: 12:40:24 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 12:40:36 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@111.134.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:40:40 pkhuong: something else to not like about register-groups-bind, yes :) 12:41:17 make a new iface, I don't like the name too 12:41:21 H4ns: &key mismatch in the second argument? 12:42:24 H4ns: ... or generalize r-g-bind to have a set of cases. The last one can be the default. 12:42:29 (cl-ppcre:when-matched (lambda-list for groups) ...) similarly (if-matched (vars) consequent otherwise) 12:43:17 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:43:25 allow vars to have default values and matched flag individually 12:43:48 pkhuong: all the possibilities! 12:44:00 H4ns: yeah (: 12:44:11 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:44:11 pkhuong: i guess i'll go for the default and the mismatch keyword argument for now. 12:44:22 imho when-matched if-matched kind of similar to when-let if-let 12:44:38 binding and conditional execution together 12:49:38 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 12:49:44 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 12:52:38 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@111.134.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:54:04 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 12:55:10 H4ns: ... I think you're supposed to use normalize-var... 12:55:47 pkhuong: that is what i've just found out from looking at the source. 12:57:22 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA29A9D.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:57:28 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-178.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:58:16 pkhuong: and it does not solve the problem either, because even if a normalizing function is specified, the default is still nil 12:59:06 it does solver the problem of parse-integer being passed nil. 12:59:14 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:59:34 pkhuong: how? i've tried using ((#'string foo)), but the warning is still there 12:59:36 -!- paraboli1e [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:59:36 *solve. And now back to writing about solverS. 12:59:44 :) 13:00:12 pkhuong: go ahead. r-g-b this is too ugly to fix in a backward compatible manner anyway 13:00:13 H4ns: ((#'parse-integer number)) 13:00:28 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d01259d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:36 uh, nice 13:00:37 :) 13:00:40 *bow* 13:00:48 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:01 H4ns: the normalizing function is only called when the register is full; otherwise the variable is bound to NIL. 13:01:04 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has left #lisp 13:03:32 it looks rather unusual but works very well. 13:05:30 I think I'd have rather specified it so that ((parse-integer number)) worked. It's always possible to pass a lambda there if evaluation is needed. 13:07:56 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:08:04 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:08:25 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-35.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:08:48 pnq [~nick@ACA29A9D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:11:43 -!- harish [~harish@155.69.194.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:12:42 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-180.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:12:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:13:41 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA29A9D.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:14:11 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-180.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:14:27 naiv_ [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-206-84.w109-208.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:15:37 -!- naiv 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[~add^_^@m90-131-121-26.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 14:24:46 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:25:25 -!- felideon [~felideon@184.170.255.36] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 14:26:18 -!- blackwol` is now known as blackwolf 14:27:51 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:28:23 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:28:34 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 14:30:05 xyxu [~Adium@61.171.42.155] has joined #lisp 14:33:54 -!- qnavry [~cow@c114-76-15-67.eburwd4.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:36:27 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 14:37:52 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:38:02 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 14:38:24 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:41:02 'morning 14:41:56 'morning 14:43:36 heya, j_king 14:44:01 sup 14:44:03 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-tculkzcnswdqdkno] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:45:04 heading into the final stretch on my project. 14:45:16 which means that the halcyon days of procrastination are seriously over. ;) 14:45:22 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:45:29 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 14:45:53 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:46:45 ah. the lisp one? 14:46:50 yeah 14:46:52 jelly. 14:47:00 how's it going? 14:47:14 good. things are looking solid. 14:48:35 Nice. 14:50:15 My attempt at sneaking CL into 'work has been derailed by the clojure peeps. 14:50:40 well, that's a little unfortunate, but I'd rather use clojure than java directly. :) 14:52:09 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:52:09 -!- ahinki [~ahinki@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0/20120509070325]] 14:52:22 3.6 14:53:24 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:53:45 It makes the puritan in me throw up in the back of my throat a little when people claim this is a 'good' lisp and that it's the future of lisp.. but it's something i guess. 14:53:54 j_king: We have a project in clojure. 14:54:12 I still don't understand why would anyone choose it over CL. 14:54:33 Other than using java libraries which wasn't the reason in our case. 14:55:52 naryl: I don't really know myself. Seems baking in concepts into the language is all the rage these days. 14:56:56 btw :) 14:57:12 Can I make SLIME macroexpand a macro before looking for IN-PACKAGE form? 14:57:17 *forms 14:59:24 naryl: probably not easily. The magic happens emacs-side. 15:00:03 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:01:48 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 15:01:58 Greetings lispers. 15:02:09 -!- DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@184.99.7.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:02:30 jlongster [~user@pool-108-4-74-122.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:29 -!- cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:03:35 Although I thought the Clojurescript idea of tying to the google closure framework was a neat idea. 15:06:50 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 15:08:24 Yow. Anybody here had a chance to give ACL 9.0 SMP a spin? 15:09:23 luis: if anything, the number of ACL users here is dwindling. 15:10:02 I can imagine. 15:10:06 hi luis :) 15:11:24 naryl: I had to extend the package-detection regex when I started using my own wrapper. 15:12:45 multiprocessing seems to go awry after a dumplisp. Oh well. 15:13:12 fe[nl]ix: konnichiwa 15:14:02 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:15:12 -!- hitecnologys [~noname@46.233.227.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:16:29 -!- xyxu [~Adium@61.171.42.155] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:17:02 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:17:43 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:18:03 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:18:17 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 15:19:01 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:19:09 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 15:19:43 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053013127.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 15:23:05 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 15:30:06 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@pool-70-22-217-21.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:24 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:35:38 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 15:35:59 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:36:32 lemoinem [~swoog@252-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:42 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:39:11 Can I find 3rd part of clos chapter, which describe AMOP for cltl2ed book? 15:39:12 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:39:19 Hi all. 15:39:44 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:41:47 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:35 there's no MOP in cltl 15:42:43 MOP is described in AMOP 15:43:16 http://www.alu.org/mop/index.html contains chapters which describe MOP specifically 15:48:45 In cltl2 sources there is notes about 3rd not approved section. I think may be someone has. 15:50:26 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:50:32 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-179-47-99.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:53 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:53:08 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:55:01 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:55:16 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.33.28] has joined #lisp 15:55:20 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:57:31 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:01:30 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:02:37 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@111.134.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 16:03:43 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:05 DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@184.99.7.19] has joined #lisp 16:08:32 zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-yszjnddgoknnarvs] has joined #lisp 16:10:43 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:11:29 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.93] has joined #lisp 16:12:30 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 16:15:13 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:19:04 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 16:19:18 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129158092.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 16:22:27 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.202] has joined #lisp 16:25:08 mensch [~mensch@c-67-189-240-148.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:04 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host223-230-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:27:01 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:28:00 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 16:28:35 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 16:31:03 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:07 Jasko [~tjasko@108.60.121.114] has joined #lisp 16:31:15 cnl [~cnl@95.106.55.40] has joined #lisp 16:32:37 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33:54 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.121] has joined #lisp 16:34:42 what a strange post by Didier Verna 16:34:44 -!- hiredman [~hiredman@ip67-152-53-125.z53-152-67.customer.algx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:34:52 and commenting on his site seems to be broken 16:36:59 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:39:14 Posterdati [~tapioca@host13-229-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:39:34 why seemingly knowledgeable people chose to confuse people is beyond me 16:39:52 s/chose/choose/ 16:40:18 tritchey [~tritchey@108.60.121.114] has joined #lisp 16:40:57 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:42:37 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:44:29 Seems to be about 1/3 legitimate gripe, 1/3 implementation brokenness, and 1/3 insanity. 16:44:36 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:45:18 i don't understand the premise, making {} to be () is just (set-macro-character #\{ (lambda (stream char) (declare (ignore char)) (read-delimited-list #\} stream t))) (set-syntax-from-char #\} #\)) 16:45:47 dekuked` [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:54 Pretty much, yeah. 16:46:21 ( wants to read until it encounters ), why would it work should it work with } 16:46:48 -!- cnl [~cnl@95.106.55.40] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:46:50 on *ould work too many 16:46:57 because he's got wrong the model of how the reader works 16:47:08 What's it about? 16:48:19 -!- dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:49:01 -!- mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:49:02 when the tokenizer is different from the AST-builder, you can say "make #\{ a synonym of #\( and #\} of #\)" and the parser will work with that that 16:49:15 nah guy just had a thinko. When you trying to do something fast, you rely on instincts.. At first glance "oh, just set { and } to same shit that handles ( and )" seems like a good idea 16:50:02 his wrong turn is immediately starting to write blog, rather then thinking for a bit why it does not work 16:50:24 indeed 16:50:28 *maxm-* suffers from same symptom, so he can sympathize 16:50:54 kilon [~kilon@188.4.64.221.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:51:05 one thing is complaining in #lisp, another on a syndicated blog read by millions of innocent lispers 16:51:21 but he's a teacher, it's humiliating to see a demo go wrong in front of a few hundred students(guessing here) 16:51:22 *maxm-* chuckles at "millions" 16:51:26 Millions of innocent lispers? 16:51:44 *ThomasH* hopes there was sarcasm in there, somewhere. 16:51:48 i rounded it up 16:52:19 -!- zbigniew [~zb@ipv6.3e8.org] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 16:52:21 i don't know the real number of innocent lispers 16:52:54 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 16:52:56 Zero. Once you've used lisp long enough to consider yourself a lisper, you're jaded and cynical. 16:53:01 stassats`: 0, all lispers are nocent somehow 16:53:31 at least the title was right 16:53:40 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Client Quit] 16:53:53 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 16:55:12 cnl [~cnl@95.106.55.40] has joined #lisp 16:55:17 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:55:41 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:57:27 Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host13-229-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:58:00 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 16:58:27 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-179-47-99.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 16:58:37 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-179-47-99.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:45 Hi. In new version of swank (dated 20.04.12) function create-server doesn't have keyword koding-system. Do somebody know is it feature of bug? 16:58:58 s/koding/coding/ 16:59:09 a feature 16:59:15 it's utf-8 now 16:59:27 Ok, thank you. 17:01:28 nikodemus [~nikodemus@176-93-191-189.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:02:15 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 17:02:54 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:03:17 -!- ccomendant [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ccomendant] has left #lisp 17:04:46 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.33.28] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.96.1] 17:07:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:10:05 pnq [~nick@AC8178C4.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:10:28 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@111.134.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:10:28 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:11:03 ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-043-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:10 -!- vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-146-140.dsl.sil.at] has quit [Quit: vervic] 17:20:32 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 17:20:36 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:22:12 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:24:37 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.160.223.238] has joined #lisp 17:25:16 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-179-47-99.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:25:46 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:00 araujo [~araujo@190.38.84.85] has joined #lisp 17:27:00 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.84.85] has quit [Changing host] 17:27:00 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 17:27:31 -!- Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host13-229-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:27:42 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@111.134.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 17:28:00 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-35-217-188.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:51 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@111.134.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:30:14 jacobw [~jacobw@fedora/jacobw] has joined #lisp 17:30:36 jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 17:30:52 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@176-93-191-189.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:32:06 nikodemus [~nikodemus@176-93-191-189.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:36:06 if { } should mean anything, then i'd say it'd mean a progn, and i don't think that would be too hard to implement 17:36:47 irpanech0 [~user@184.66.174.87] has joined #lisp 17:38:20 I think it should mean Ponies. 17:39:10 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 17:43:27 -!- two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:43:45 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:44:56 sykopomp: i'm in doubt, should i want { } in lisp now, or should i still hate the concept? 17:45:16 madnificent: You should want ponies. Lisp is irrelevant. 17:46:16 *madnificent* goes hunting ponies. rainbow-colored pony-blood ahead! \o/ 17:46:38 \o/ 17:49:58 -!- DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@184.99.7.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:51:41 I think I'd rather see { } as a literal JSON object, but one that does something intelligent if it appears in a backquote. 17:52:09 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@54-79-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:12 madnificent: I want {} for lambdas. Just write the reader and let the user (with named-readtables) decide. 17:52:19 nyef: that'd actually be kind of sweet. 17:54:32 gigamonkey: My code is littered with (apply #'st-json:jso "field" value "field" value (compute-extra-fields)). Almost makes me miss XML-mixed-mode. 17:55:35 *j_king* shudders at {}. 17:58:48 -!- tensorpudding_ is now known as tensorpudding 17:59:31 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:03:24 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.147.30] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 18:06:24 -!- niko [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:07:19 ciaranb [~user@5acba986.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 18:08:21 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:09:18 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.147.30] has joined #lisp 18:09:20 gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:09:25 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:11:04 mucker [~mucker@183.83.227.117] has joined #lisp 18:12:32 klltkr [~klltkr@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:12:47 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 18:14:01 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:14:27 there probably at least one perverse person out there who did /regexp/ using cl-ppre too, of course with (defvar *_* ) 18:14:31 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 18:14:35 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:39 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:45 -!- ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@fsf/member/chibapet] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:51 strobegen [~strobegen@188.168.72.152] has joined #lisp 18:20:59 ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@fsf/member/chibapet] has joined #lisp 18:22:17 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 18:22:56 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:23:01 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:25:24 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:11 nyef: combine that with what naryl said, and it may be something useful. { } can be used as a grouping construct for a literal data format in more than one situation (matriches ([] may be better there), json documents, 18:27:35 pressed enter by accident, but it's clear enough, i guess. 18:28:33 Fare [~Fare@216.239.55.82] has joined #lisp 18:30:21 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.63.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30:40 metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 18:31:56 stassats`: read-delimited-list only reads proper lists. It cannot be used to substitute {} for (). You have to write your own reader macro to replace (). 18:32:07 (a . b) --> {a . b} 18:34:29 Guthur [~user@host86-169-18-64.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:34:55 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:35:56 kilon_alios [~kilon@77.49.244.92.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:36:02 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:23 it's easy 18:36:49 Yes. But it's not just calling to predefined functions. 18:37:29 well, nobody in their sane mind would want to actually replace () with {} 18:38:13 -!- kilon [~kilon@188.4.64.221.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:38:17 Yes. 18:38:52 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 18:38:57 And while being easy, the reader macro for #\( is one of the biggest (only that for #( is bigger, because it tries to optimize memory). 18:39:08 stassats: really? ISTR there being quite a racket around that concept... 18:39:42 that said you could write a parameterized reader macro that would let you do replace () easily. 18:40:22 foom: i said "sane" 18:40:25 For literal matrices, I'd rather have $$\begin{array} ... or something. 18:40:42 @_@ 18:41:19 The main reason I haven't written the reader macro to make it work is that the emacs side of making it all work is beyond me. 18:41:38 nyef: I quite like matlisp's [ ; ] or [[ ] [ ]] syntax. The only problem is that the semicolons confuse SLIME-REPL 18:41:41 Yes, teaching emacs the new syntax is a bore. 18:41:48 -!- sepuku [~sepuku@37.32.198.59] has left #lisp 18:41:54 It would be marginally better if emacs was written in CL. 18:42:09 pjb: The real problem is getting the LaTeX preview stuff to integrate nicely. 18:42:27 SMOP 18:42:37 But even then, just defining a CL reader macro is not enough IMO. One should give a higher level (declarative) definition of reader macros, that could be use to generate the reader macro function, and by the editor. 18:42:52 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:42:55 pjb: you don't really need it to be parameterized, just use the unicode database, it has which characters are mirrors of which others. :) 18:43:23 nyef: yeah... There are some tools to nearly instantaneously refresh latex renders on edits. It might be simpler to hack something with that and pandoc (: 18:43:30 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:43:32 well, perhaps some people want to write things like {hello{ {howdy{  18:43:50 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:43:53 or nyef, I have no idea what has been talked about, but there's whizzytex (automatically show a rendered update) and auctex (shows inline previews) 18:44:42 Yea, "perhaps", but not really. 18:44:52 Quadrescence: I'm thinking like auctex's preview-latex, but in lisp source, with SLIME integration. 18:45:21 foom, are common in physics, so-called "bras" and "kets". 18:45:59 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 18:46:50 the problem with all those { is that it's a bad name for something and you can't have two { at the same time, while you can give macros and functions better and different names 18:47:25 stassats`: let's dispatch on the character between # and { ! 18:47:37 pkhuong: you can have only digits there 18:48:07 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:19 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8178C4.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:50:51 making $ not a dispatching macro-character, and then $json{} 18:50:57 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:51:31 -!- metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:52:30 pnq [~nick@AC8178C4.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:52:48 it could even dispatch based on *package* (: 18:54:00 inline xml never even made it into Java. 18:54:07 although, it was pretty close I think 18:55:04 foom: and it's already in xmlisp! 18:55:40 foom: sexml replaces the need for that. xml is ugly, s-expressions are nice. pkhuong's comment is probably more helpful though. 18:56:05 inline xml is just a terrible idea. 18:57:14 s/inline // 18:57:26 sometimes, xml is necessary. inline is not. 18:58:25 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@54-79-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:59:05 looks like the Troll worked 18:59:45 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:00:40 ignas__ [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 19:02:13 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8178C4.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:03:10 DDR [~chatzilla@d142-179-78-231.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:34 pnq [~nick@AC8178C4.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:07:39 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:08:50 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:42 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:06 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 19:17:31 -!- fukushim_ [~fukushima@z128.124-44-151.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 19:18:48 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:49 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-031.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 19:19:03 fukushima [~fukushima@z128.124-44-151.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:20:17 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:21:10 -!- Radium [~rajesh.na@117.220.48.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:21:21 Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.3.23] has joined #lisp 19:21:32 -!- irpanech0 [~user@184.66.174.87] has left #lisp 19:22:51 zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-163-13.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 19:24:18 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 19:28:39 dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:52 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:28:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:29:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:30:00 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:31:38 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-031.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:33:16 fAz4 [~amir@2.179.50.52] has joined #lisp 19:38:25 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 19:38:55 Joreji__ [~thomas@65-211.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 19:38:55 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-103-044.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:50 irpanech0 [~user@184.66.174.87] has joined #lisp 19:43:28 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:43:47 set-syntax-from-char explicitely says: A macro definition from a character such as " can be copied to another character; the standard definition for " looks for another character that is the same as the character that invoked it. The definition of ( can not be meaningfully copied to {, on the other hand. The result is that lists are of the form {a b c), not {a b c}, because the definition always looks for a closing parenthesis, not a closing brace. 19:45:11 i'm not sure why you would want to use () [] {} for the same thing in CL .. variety? heh 19:45:13 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:22 -!- NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uimfjzrvqzxdcmnu] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:45:55 oGMo: to complain that you need to write more than two lines of code to do it 19:46:18 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-comajksizedjsfko] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:46:21 stassats`: heh 19:46:27 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.227.117] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:46:43 -!- ocharles_ [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-arlkuasxbajbrutg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:47:14 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:08 Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host13-229-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:48:37 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:49:14 -!- dotemacs [u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-plbejgwxscnmndmm] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:51:36 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:52:15 antgreen [~user@CPEf0def1ad1e4e-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:54:00 oGMo: one reason may be to read depraved clojure or scheme sources with the CL reader. 19:54:07 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.202] has joined #lisp 19:54:26 francogrex [~user@109.130.134.245] has joined #lisp 19:54:52 -!- ignas__ [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:54:56 (but you'd use [] rather). 19:55:07 Well racket has conses written with {} too. 19:58:08 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 19:58:58 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.134.245] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:59:26 Do lispers worry about the color of bikesheds too much? 20:00:12 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:18 This conversation and the one on the reader macro to ignore a form have generated more discussion than warranted. 20:02:13 too much talk, too little code 20:02:20 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129158092.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:02:45 -!- zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-yszjnddgoknnarvs] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03:09 ocharles_ [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cyhdugefabiwsjwc] has joined #lisp 20:03:23 zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-juveadnttnzoftnd] has joined #lisp 20:03:46 reading {} lists: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129445 20:04:25 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jazmgcjrvmcqthka] has joined #lisp 20:04:32 ThomasH: it's not bad, it allowed me to find a bug in my reader! :-) 20:04:54 yuck 20:05:12 com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.reader:: is very nice 20:05:50 pjb: Hah! The critical difference is that you just wrote and learned something, in other cases it's just been a lot of hot air. That's my point, just implement it, if it catches, great, if not, you probably learned something. 20:05:55 stassats`: the point is that CL only exports read-delimited-list that doesn't handle dotted lists. 20:06:06 ThomasH: exactly 20:06:26 ThomasH: it's not hot air, how the code looks is important 20:06:40 if you want it, make it, use it, otherwise you have too much time on your hands 20:07:08 Well the code looks clean: (make-lisp-list-macro-character #\{)) '{a {1 2 3} {} c . d} 20:07:17 pjb: which point? 20:07:34 the point of Didier Verna's troll. 20:07:44 is it? 20:07:54 stassats`: Taking the art of trolling to a new level? :-) 20:07:56 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:08:00 pjb: i saw no point in it 20:08:13 "In passing, it also surprised me that SB-IMPL::READ-LIST is not implemented in terms of READ-DELIMITED-LIST." 20:08:21 the real point was "don't go off-script during a demo" but i think that's an old one 20:08:30 Well, sure. 20:08:39 pjb: well, he didn't know that read-delimited-list cannot be used 20:08:41 But he's a jazzman! 20:09:01 The trend now seems to be put the demo in a YT video and just run that. No fuss, no muss, no errors. 20:09:26 do any cl implementations support reversing execution? 20:09:40 ThomasH: except for flash crashing 20:09:44 dekuked`: what does that mean? 20:09:55 dekuked`: no, but you could use CL to implement such a system. JMC worked on it a little. 20:10:19 for debugging with slime. I know ocaml supports, and I think gcc just got in the mainline. 20:10:28 supports it* 20:10:31 -!- fAz4 [~amir@2.179.50.52] has left #lisp 20:10:43 dekuked`: see also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBVQYNfckhQ ; it could be implemented easily enough in CL. 20:10:53 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-25-220.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:10:57 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-72-129.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 20:11:16 dekuked`: nope. You could try to hack something up with fork, but fork and threads don't play nice, and slime without threads can be painful. 20:11:25 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:11:39 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-25-220.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:11:39 francogrex [~user@109.130.134.245] has joined #lisp 20:11:41 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:11:42 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-72-129.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 20:12:07 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:12:30 dotemacs [u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pzpdrjkfdduabczk] has joined #lisp 20:12:35 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:12:51 -!- irpanech0 [~user@184.66.174.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13:32 iocor [~textual@eduroam-wireless-pat7.nomadic.bris.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:13:34 -!- iocor [~textual@eduroam-wireless-pat7.nomadic.bris.ac.uk] has quit [Changing host] 20:13:34 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 20:13:43 pkhuong: could you elaborate on that? I don't understand. 20:14:22 pjb: thank you for the youtube video, looks very interesting. also, couldn't find anything googling "jmc common lisp reverse"; did you have a specific link in mind? 20:14:46 so what asshole do i bill $ for blacklisting my domain 20:15:03 |SLB| [~slabua@host231-169-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:15:18 dto: blacklisting where? 20:15:31 -!- Joreji__ [~thomas@65-211.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:15:48 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-80-4.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:16:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:16:39 dekuked`: you want some sort of checkpointing to implement time-travel debugging sanely. I think ocaml's uses fork and bytecode annotations. But fork only copies memory, fds, etc., not threads. So forking a threaded application won't give you the checkpoints you need. On the other hand, I find SLIME without threads annoying to use. 20:17:14 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:17:14 p_l: http://www.sorbs.net/cgi-bin/db 20:17:15 oops 20:17:19 p_l: one moment 20:17:32 gdb supports it now, somehow. 20:17:59 foom: in theory you can rollback memory in threaded application 20:18:19 205.178.146.62 p_l i hardly send any mail at all from that address, but have had problems with signing up to various things and i never get the email and have to use something else 20:18:25 might require stepping or dense checkpointing 20:18:31 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@111.134.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 20:18:35 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:18:43 dto: did you try setting up SFP and such for your domain? 20:19:24 what's sfp? i just use Network Solutions webmail 20:20:05 dto: I don't remember acronym expansion, but there's a bunch of DNS records you can use to help in "proving" your domain 20:20:13 dekuked`: google for john mccarthy reversible computing ; but nothing stands out glaringly. 20:20:24 as well as proving you weren't the sender when someone claims so 20:20:53 i'm going to abandon that domain name and email address instead.. i don't have the time 20:21:10 yikes, didn't even realize you were talking about mccarthy 20:21:14 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:00 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.134.245] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:07 [SLBoff] [~slabua@host72-161-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:22:20 Wow, GDB recommends non-free software?!? What has this world come to! 20:22:20 dto: well, if you're going to set email under your own domain, take care of all those. Although not all servers lockout non-SFP-approved mail, it helps avoiding misidentification 20:22:37 foom: what are you talking about? 20:22:43 p_l: thanks. 20:22:49 http://sourceware.org/gdb/news/reversible.html 20:23:21 foom: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/xindong/oopsla10.pdf, http://dmtcp.sourceforge.net/. I remember trying something like dmtcp on SBCL (without success). 20:23:27 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-169-18-64.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:34 Joreji_ [~thomas@65-211.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:23:48 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.47.168] has joined #lisp 20:24:11 -!- |SLB| [~slabua@host231-169-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:24:56 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:25:05 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:25:32 yup, their ptracery tricks land us straight in ldb. 20:25:51 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@111.134.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:26:02 foom: where do you see non-free ? 20:27:18 well, running under kvm is still an option. 20:27:42 fe[nl]ix: Well, UndoDB, VMware Workstation 7.0, dunno about the other ones in that list. Maybe them too. 20:28:30 Joreji__ [~thomas@65-211.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:29:16 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:32:34 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@206.205.176.2] has joined #lisp 20:33:00 it says "several remote targets", that's just support for a certain backend, certainly not a recommendation 20:33:19 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-80-4.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:33:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 20:36:48 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@188-143-66-147.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:38:21 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.64.170] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 20:38:46 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:38:47 dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:11 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:41:05 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 20:41:28 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.47.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:45:28 -!- Joreji__ [~thomas@65-211.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:45:32 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 20:45:52 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@65-211.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:46:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-35.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47:16 Joreji [~thomas@65-211.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:47:24 Joreji__ [~thomas@65-211.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:48:08 -!- strobegen [~strobegen@188.168.72.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:51:06 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m90-131-121-26.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 20:52:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@65-211.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:53:07 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 20:54:12 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-026.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:54:29 OliverUv [~gandhi@h-62-13.a163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 20:54:50 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:55:53 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:57:17 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@206.205.176.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:43 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:59:34 -!- zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-juveadnttnzoftnd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:05:44 francogrex [~user@109.130.134.245] has joined #lisp 21:07:22 dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:18 -!- ocharles_ [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cyhdugefabiwsjwc] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 21:17:45 -!- iLogical is now known as robatsch 21:17:47 ocharles_ [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nvzjdvuxczeulixe] has joined #lisp 21:19:09 Guthur [~user@host86-169-18-64.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:20:56 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-026.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:20:56 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-030.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 21:22:14 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:23:33 Can I find in GUI toolkit, in which I can draw custom widgets? It seems, that all gtk bindings do not support it. 21:23:59 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25:28 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@111.134.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 21:26:52 they do. It is, in the end, just a simple 'widget' object with custom paint method... 21:27:47 -!- ciaranb [~user@5acba986.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 21:27:49 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 21:28:52 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-030.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:29:14 p_l: please, give me link. May be I try to find wrong pattern of code. 21:30:29 -!- Joreji__ [~thomas@65-211.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:30:30 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:30:42 I don't remember toolkit specific parts, but clgtk2 iirc supports subclassing, so all you need is to subclass apropriate gtk2 class and fill in requisite parts (event handling, painting) 21:30:56 -!- dekuked` [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:30:57 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-014.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 21:31:03 -!- dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:31:03 CommonQT *does* support subclassing 21:31:42 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:31:52 plus in gtk you can really just make a generic "widget", draw in it, and respond to events 21:31:55 -!- antgreen [~user@CPEf0def1ad1e4e-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:32:10 it's only really tricky if you want to make a widget that you export for other things to use 21:32:23 Joreji__ [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:32:26 oGMo: Qt has similar bas class 21:32:49 p_l: yeah .. been awhile since i did qt but it has a similar model 21:32:59 or it did back in like qt3 :P 21:33:32 asvil: can't guide further because it's been *ages* since I did GUI stuff 21:34:31 alvis [~user@tx-184-6-180-2.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:11 p_l: I will re-read cl-gtk2 tutorial. 21:35:38 i had a smartass idea about generating a stub shared library that re-execs into lisp on link and uses CFFI callbacks 21:36:01 it's time for C to be second-class 21:38:07 oGMo: for qt? 21:38:38 oGMo: just hook into symbol resolution 21:38:39 asvil: no just in general, but you really don't need to do any such thing 21:39:13 as long as the library you load uses default resolution instead of explicit symbol handling... 21:39:18 unless you want people to write C and link to a .so that you wrote in lisp 21:40:10 p_l: i'm not sure you even need to do that .. the only real trick is getting things running in a lisp, and after that it should work normally 21:41:03 but i have no desire to write code in another language, so i haven't bothered 21:41:23 -!- [SLBoff] is now known as [SLB] 21:41:28 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host72-161-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 21:41:28 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 21:43:06 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8178C4.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:43:36 oGMo: I'm planning on revisiting that concept sometime in the future to fix SBCL's blind spot in foreign thread handling 21:45:28 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-230-68.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:30 p_l: nice! 21:45:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-014.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:46:33 oGMo: it won't help againt things that would directly call clone(2), but it would work for pthreas on linux by masking apropriate pthread functions 21:46:38 pnq [~nick@AC8178C4.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:47:24 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-192-78.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:47:31 p_l: that would probably cover the vast majority of cases 21:47:36 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:50:02 p_l: I like the russian approach of spawning a temporary lisp thread context. 21:50:31 i wonder how painful it would be to integrate seccomp into sbcl for true sandboxing on linux 21:50:42 I had a crazy idea a while back about writing sb-thread bindings for the gtk thread operation structure, so that any gtk thread that got spawned was spawned as an SBCL thread using CREATE-THREAD and then did a call-out to the C function it was supposed to run. 21:51:50 nyef: sometimes i think it is better to write lisp-only GUI toolkit, instead of using qt,gtk,etc,etc, 21:51:53 ysph [~user@adsl-070-147-172-248.sip.mgm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:36 asvil: That was my conclusion as well, although it's a lot easier to get eye candy if you use one of the other toolkits. 21:52:40 hmm I'm trying to use asdf :In-order-to, it seems to always recompile 21:52:52 maxm-: Your first mistake was to use asdf. 21:53:17 *maxm-* is getting really tired of this shit... its either xvcb thing or write my own 21:53:49 pkhuong: my idea was that foreign code calling pthread_create would jump into Lisp code which would reate the thread 21:53:58 but I like asdf ~/.cache thing, but its just so messy, thought of implementing the ~/.cache thing myself kind of puts me off it 21:54:06 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:54:40 nyef: yes, I forgot modern market 21:54:53 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:55:01 nyef: what gtk binding are you use& 21:55:10 oGMo: SBCL would get SIGKILLed very quickly if the only allowed syscalls truly are read/write/exit/sigreturn. But, then again, so would any programing using malloc. 21:55:20 At this point? I don't. 21:55:21 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:55:58 Haven't had the time to do anything in terms of Lisp and GUI these days. 21:56:44 Even if I've been hoping to blow the dust off of nq-clim at some point and actually get something running, even if it's a text-mode input editor. 21:57:05 -!- OliverUv [~gandhi@h-62-13.a163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:57:06 OliverUv_ [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 21:57:23 pkhuong: right but you use the helper approach to allow other calls, allocate a heap up front, etc 21:58:06 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.134.245] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:58:16 nq-clim? 21:58:48 oGMo: can the helper call mmap/munmap on the sandboxed process's part? how about spawning threads, or playing with their interrupt mask? 21:59:28 nq-clim is my occasional attempt to implement a CLIM-like system. 22:00:28 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-043-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:00:59 pkhuong: i'm not sure how those are used in sbcl, but you could mmap before you seccomp. i was under the impression seccomp was on a per-thread basis 22:01:15 if someone got nq-clim up that would be good 22:01:21 revival of clim 22:01:50 nyef: did you publish? google does not know it:) 22:02:41 I can find http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/nq-clim-2011-03-28.tgz but I'm not entirely sure what's in it. 22:04:25 There's basically not even enough to open a window on the screen, let alone behave as a coherent user interface. 22:04:31 -!- ysph [~user@adsl-070-147-172-248.sip.mgm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:04:34 oGMo: ah, it's the linux definition of process. I don't see how dropping privilege for only some threads that share address space with privileged threads is useful sandboxing though. 22:05:15 pkhuong: you can choose to share only some memory in linux 22:06:25 oGMo: doesn't work very well with SBCL's model of pretending to be an OS. 22:06:36 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:07:19 i'd have figured sbcl pretending to be an OS would make it easier, but sadly i don't know the guts very well ;/ 22:07:47 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:09 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d01259d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:12:36 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:13:18 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.217.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:14:13 |SLB| [~slabua@host91-160-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:14:27 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:14:35 pkhuong: you can unshare aress spaces as well 22:14:51 *adress 22:16:21 anyway, if you want sanboxing, userland virtualization would work better, but locks you to either x86 or amd64 cpus with specific capabilities 22:17:37 p_l: there are a few things .. selinux and whatever google is actually using for chromium (all i can find is "we were going to use seccomp but didn't") 22:18:48 full virtualization is interesting, and if a bit heavy, at least immediately doable 22:19:36 oGMo: seccomp was afaik extended for chromium on amd64, x86 used userland virtualization (through segments - when you don't need to run code other than ring 3, it's not that heavy) 22:19:47 what's wrong with dropping privs at the process level? 22:20:05 p_l: hrm interesting 22:20:22 -!- robatsch is now known as carpete 22:20:44 anyway, even with that, Chrome could have been brought down by "while(true) { }" 22:21:18 but each tab is a separate process or thread 22:21:21 [SLBoff] [~slabua@host251-68-dynamic.182-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:21:24 pkhuong: it's not enough 22:21:42 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:21:59 -!- |SLB| [~slabua@host91-160-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:22:26 oGMo: doesn't help you when you saturate cpu 22:22:26 fe[nl]ix: compared to dropping a single thread's privilege and executing an assembly monitor in the same process? 22:22:33 -!- kilon_alios [~kilon@77.49.244.92.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23:10 p_l: well, unless it kills the kernel, you can monitor and kill the offending process, or use process accounting or whtanot 22:27:37 oGMo: basically, with the way CL in general works, I don't see how sandboxing a single thread can be safe. We'd have to sandbox the whole lisp process, and we're back to the original generic problem. 22:30:37 oGMo: yes, but with all cores saturated, especially on non-server config which has bias towards "interactive" processes like Chrome, it can be... hard 22:30:38 pkhuong: i'm not sure why that would be the case. it's not a matter of sandboxing what you can do in CL; assume that if you want to destroy the process, you can, but it's sandboxed from the rest of the system. and at a kernel level. 22:31:08 pkhuong: it's not really different than running lisp in a VM, except you do some things in the lisp kernel, instead of assume they're in the OS kernel 22:31:21 whether you can do this in sbcl is a different story, obviously 22:31:40 oGMo: let's say you sandbox one thread. It's still sharing the same heap as non-sandboxed threads running unaudited code. 22:32:00 p_l: the OS is still there. if it's a problem, configure it to kill overactive processes 22:32:04 pkhuong: no, it's not 22:32:17 oGMo: ah, so we're sandboxing the whole SBCL process? 22:32:29 pkhuong: it has a separate heap and can only interact with the trusted process by a preallocated memory space 22:32:38 oGMo: SBCL only has one heap. 22:32:39 oGMo: killing overactive processes is counterproductive in practice, at least on desktop 22:34:27 p_l: not really .. you're implementing measures to run untrusted code locally. your web browser already does this and it works, if poorly, but only due to its implementation 22:35:07 p_l: it's not impractical to throttle processes that are untrusted, and kill them on demand, much like closing a misbehavinga app or webpage 22:35:40 so, I'm still wondering, what is the point of sandboxing a single thread if it has its own private heap anyway? 22:36:15 pkhuong: it would be highly useful for running bits of untrusted code locally 22:36:31 why not do it in a separate process? 22:37:20 pkhuong: it still needs sandboxed .. the point is sandboxing the process from the entire system, with a whitelist of permissions, not just other threads 22:37:28 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@176-93-191-189.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:37:46 right, so we're back to the generic problem of sandboxing a process. 22:38:17 we were talking about something else? 22:38:19 There isn't much that can be CL specific about this? 22:38:24 oGMo: it' hard to accurately recognize when to throttle an otherwise well-bahving process 22:38:39 -!- Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host13-229-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:45 yes, we were talking about integrating seccomp *into* sbcl. 22:38:52 pkhuong: implementing seccomp would probably be sbcl-specific. there may be other methods now, and more beyond that soon 22:39:04 oGMo: why? it's just a regular process. 22:39:40 nikodemus [~nikodemus@176-93-191-189.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 22:43:31 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@176-93-191-189.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 22:43:32 -!- Fare [~Fare@216.239.55.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:45:16 -!- carpete is now known as iLOGICAL 22:45:47 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 22:47:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:48:46 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:04 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-103-044.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:49:13 agdm [~agdm@124.93.203.52] has joined #lisp 22:49:19 -!- agdm [~agdm@124.93.203.52] has left #lisp 22:50:15 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 22:51:01 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8178C4.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping 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