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03:04:13 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 03:07:16 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.12.190] has quit [Quit: xyxu] 03:08:42 -!- pyg- [~root@c-71-207-128-206.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:09:20 pnq [~nick@AC8121C8.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 03:10:13 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-8.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:24 -!- harish [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:10:38 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-67-20.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:11:42 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:11:49 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-138-11.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 03:12:22 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 03:14:13 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:15:31 if I specify a slot with :type foo, can it still be nil or do I have to specify it as :type (or foo nil) ? 03:20:34 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:20:35 harish [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 03:24:37 jake__ [~jake@74.213.226.253] has joined #lisp 03:25:43 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:25:55 yates [~user@nc-71-48-9-61.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:29 what is the return value of (apply #'mkstr args)? 03:26:57 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 03:27:48 i'm trying to grok this: (defun symb (&rest args) (values (intern (apply #'mkstr args)))) 03:28:13 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:18 (apply #'mkstr args) => undefined function MKSTR 03:30:27 what is MKSTR? 03:31:25 (defun mkstr (&rest args) (with-output-to-string (s) (dolist (a args) (princ a s)))) 03:32:42 -!- _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:32:52 (apply 'mkstr '("foo" "bar")) => "foobar". were you expecting something else? 03:34:12 (mkstr 'h 'e 'l 'l 'o) => "HELLO" 03:34:13 i wasn't expecting anything. 03:34:37 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:34:50 (symb 'h 'e 'l 'l 'o) 03:35:10 (symb 'h 'e 'l 'l 'o) => HELLO 03:36:11 MKSTR returns a string, concatenated from the arguments. SYMB returns a symbol, who's name is concatenated from the arguments. 03:37:03 Now I can use HELLO as a e.g as a variable like (setf hello 123) 03:37:42 This means you can construct symbol names from other symbols or strings. 03:37:52 _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:37:58 edgar-rft: ah - i think i see the big function 03:38:30 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:38:35 why is it necessary to use apply? why not (mkstr args)? 03:38:46 instead of (apply #'mkstr args) 03:38:48 ? 03:39:46 because you want to do (mkstr "foo" "bar") and not (mkstr '("foo" "bar")) 03:41:59 mrky [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 03:42:17 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-8.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 03:43:27 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.66.141] has joined #lisp 03:43:53 hello. is there a SLIME binding to inspect last value? 03:43:59 directly 03:44:33 C-h m 03:44:56 teggi [~teggi@123.21.175.206] has joined #lisp 03:46:41 i've read the hyperspec definition but it seems terse and foreign - allow me to rephrase: so is the main purpose of "apply" to "unbox" the argument list into individual elements and pass those rather than the list to the function? 03:46:54 yes 03:47:13 kennyd: thank you. 03:47:36 no problem 03:49:10 in (defun symb (&rest args) (values (intern (apply #'mkstr args)))), is values an accessor or a type specifier? 03:50:01 i need to read. sorry. nm. 03:50:07 (too basic, i think) 03:50:21 (values ..) returns multiple values 03:50:33 (defun foo () (values 1 2 3)) 03:50:47 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/a_values.htm#values 03:51:18 ah. 03:51:26 your function returns just one value so it should work the same without it 03:53:11 so in that usage is values an accessor? 03:53:35 as far as i can see usage of values is useless there 03:54:32 so in the usage (values 1 2 3), is values an accessor? 03:55:26 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:56:00 -!- _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:56:03 i mean, is values used as an accessor or type specifier there? 03:56:17 it's used to return 3 values 03:56:53 you can use multiple-value-* macros to fetch all values, or you can use it directly if you need just the first 03:57:11 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/a_values.htm#values 03:57:46 this is why i'm asking the question. 03:57:53 i didn't follow the link first time. 03:58:02 accessor 03:58:39 ok, thank you mrky. 03:58:44 -!- yates [~user@nc-71-48-9-61.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.96.1] 03:58:58 oh too late, but i was wrong 04:00:05 values there returns just first value instead of two as intern does 04:00:27 is that a common convention? I usually do (nth-value 0 ...) 04:02:23 dan64- [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 04:05:04 nth-value seems to convey the intention better 04:07:27 _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:12:01 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:12:05 -!- _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:13:56 -!- two- [~textual@67.23.193.215] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:16:19 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:16:56 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 04:20:30 paul0 [~paul0@201.47.45.28.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 04:36:28 _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:37:09 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:36 -!- jake__ [~jake@74.213.226.253] has quit 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[~xyxu@58.41.12.190] has joined #lisp 06:24:40 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:25:11 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 06:28:46 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:34:20 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:35:32 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:40:25 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:41:37 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 06:41:37 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.2] has quit [*.net *.split] 06:41:37 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 06:41:37 -!- j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 06:41:37 -!- hpd [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 06:41:37 -!- fooc [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 06:41:58 asvil [~asvil@178.121.94.18] has joined #lisp 06:42:03 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.2] has joined #lisp 06:42:18 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 06:45:55 -!- harish_ [~harish@119.234.0.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:48:50 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 06:51:56 How to fix this error?: Error while invoking # on # 06:54:03 two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:22 zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-163-13.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 07:04:08 imran_sr [~imran@99-72-224-160.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:24 kilon [~kilon@195.74.246.186.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:05:58 kwa1977 [~kwa@101.160.70.147] has joined #lisp 07:07:13 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:10:54 benny` [~benny@i577A7210.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:17:39 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:17:45 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 07:17:55 harish [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 07:18:15 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:21:12 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.193.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:23:10 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@host86-180-91-66.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 07:23:22 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@host86-180-91-66.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 07:23:22 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 07:26:17 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8121C8.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:26:56 e2718 [506d3e82@gateway/web/freenode/session] has joined #lisp 07:27:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:32:20 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@177.103.136.6] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:34:33 drl: by correcting the problem, of course. 07:34:46 answer_43 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 07:34:47 araujo [~araujo@190.38.84.85] has joined #lisp 07:34:47 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.84.85] has quit [Changing host] 07:34:47 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 07:39:21 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:40:09 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:40:41 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:40:42 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:44:10 stlifey_ [~stlifey@119.121.147.30] has joined #lisp 07:46:48 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.181.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:47:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:02:19 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:03:47 nikodemus [~nikodemus@178-55-57-180.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:04:59 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@111.134.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 08:09:10 #help 08:10:45 what's the problem? 08:11:28 jesusito [~user@212.169.187.129] has joined #lisp 08:11:35 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:35 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 08:11:35 j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:35 hpd [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 08:11:35 fooc [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:55 -!- e2718 [506d3e82@gateway/web/freenode/session] has quit [Changing host] 08:11:55 e2718 [506d3e82@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.109.62.130] has joined #lisp 08:13:24 -!- benny` is now known as benny 08:13:27 therein lies the question. 08:18:17 inkjetunit [~wrwrwr@unaffiliated/inkjetunit] has joined #lisp 08:18:50 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.167.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:22:37 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:22:56 -!- kilon [~kilon@195.74.246.186.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:24:27 kilon [~kilon@178.128.42.220.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 08:26:54 no, im good for right now. This is my first time using IRC. I am trying to register my nick and I am waiting for the confirmation email. Does anyone know how long it takes to get it? 08:31:59 probably check spam directory 08:33:05 -!- btbngr [~btbngr@host86-171-39-175.range86-171.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:33:27 oh yea, thanks 08:33:56 btbngr [~btbngr@host86-171-39-175.range86-171.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:35:13 kilon_alios [~kilon@77.49.248.125.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 08:35:28 -!- kilon [~kilon@178.128.42.220.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:37:59 ykm [~ykm@180.148.60.232] has joined #lisp 08:39:33 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@106-173-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:36 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:44:21 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:45:09 mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-hudd6-0-0-cust741.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:49:30 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.52.61] has joined #lisp 08:50:57 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 08:52:09 wolkefm [~wolkefm@129.137.203.9] has joined #lisp 08:52:21 -!- Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:54:53 -!- ykm [~ykm@180.148.60.232] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:56:55 -!- kwa1977 [~kwa@101.160.70.147] has left #lisp 08:58:11 snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 09:00:50 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d142-179-78-231.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 09:03:40 redsky [~vigil@adsl-074-229-197-048.sip.mco.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 09:04:11 -!- e2718 [506d3e82@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.109.62.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:04:24 Error while invoking # on # How to correct the problem? 09:04:44 -!- stlifey_ [~stlifey@119.121.147.30] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 09:05:02 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.147.30] has joined #lisp 09:05:42 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 09:07:37 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:10:46 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:10:46 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:16:21 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:18:05 -!- redsky [~vigil@adsl-074-229-197-048.sip.mco.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:19:53 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 09:24:30 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 09:25:05 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 09:27:52 dze [~user@168.Red-79-159-7.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:21 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:36 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:50:13 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has joined #lisp 09:50:35 ccomendant [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ccomendant] has joined #lisp 09:52:34 robde [~robde@pC19F7DDB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:47 -!- ashish [lostcase@freebsd/developer/ashish] has quit [Quit: Whenever we are together, it's always estatically palpitating!] 10:05:05 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@106-173-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:05:51 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 10:06:01 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-107-122-25.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:07:44 abbe [lostcase@2a01:4f8:131:13c1:abbe:abbe:abbe:abbe] has joined #lisp 10:10:12 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:14:17 graspee [~graspee@02dd1c10.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 10:14:40 vasily_pupkin[m] [~avatar@95-109-223-213.dialup.umc.net.ua] has joined #lisp 10:15:59 -!- vasily_pupkin [~avatar@95-109-196-54.dialup.umc.net.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:17:44 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:17:49 holycow [~fekoff@69.172.160.67] has joined #lisp 10:18:04 hey guys. what is the url of the new cliki software? 10:18:27 i vaguely remember cliki was being upgraded or something and it looked a bit different than cliki.net 10:18:34 theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.211.140.101] has joined #lisp 10:23:28 kilon [~kilon@77.49.171.252.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 10:23:52 holycow: https://github.com/archimag/cliki2 10:24:05 Sorry I don't remember where it's deployed. 10:25:25 holycow: http://cliki2.lisper.ru/ 10:25:38 -!- kilon_alios [~kilon@77.49.248.125.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:27:32 ebw [~user@krlh-5f722753.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:51 -!- answer_43 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:31:10 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-234-132.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:10 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-127-133.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:34:37 kilon_alios [~kilon@188.4.94.41.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 10:35:29 timor [~icke@port-92-195-105-29.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:36:16 -!- kilon [~kilon@77.49.171.252.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:36:21 drl: you just did the equivalent of pasting "make failed" and asking for help. The actual error or warning is earlier in the scrollback. Quicklisp tends to package working versions, if you're not already using its version of CLX. 10:36:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:37:10 add^_^ [~add^_^@m90-141-54-85.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:37:52 there's a couple quicklisp packages that fail to compile on non-UTF8 systems (because of author names) 10:38:41 simply editing out the problem chars or (possibly more difficult but better) change system to UTF-8 10:38:45 woops, sorry missed that 10:38:49 thx naryl! 10:39:28 holycow, you missed my response to your q the other day in the other channel 10:39:35 did you figure it out? 10:39:51 ezakimak: heh, figures! 10:40:02 you working w/weblocks now? 10:40:21 ezakimak: oh it was a weblocks question? heh 10:40:39 i'm working through it right now 10:40:49 oh heh, no i did not figure out how to get the changes to propagate to a live instance 10:41:01 i still have to kill the slime lisp session and restart to see my changes 10:41:14 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-130-117.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:27 (weblocks:reset-sessions) didn't work? 10:41:35 oh are you? sweet! i'm a slowing trying to learn it yeah, the big problem is i am learning lisp at the same time 10:41:40 ezakimak: oh i tried that, no 10:41:50 it seems a little finicky 10:42:20 that resets the session but it doesn't reload the files. what i don't get is WHAT compiles the files in weblocks. i am assuming whenever i make a change to a .lisp file a .fasl gets generated somewhere 10:42:24 you can also just ,restart-inferior-lisp 10:42:30 oh! 10:42:33 let me try that 10:42:43 oh, the what is quicklisp -> asdf 10:42:54 holycow: is there a reason you don't just compile the modified forms interactively? 10:42:58 ezakimak: RESTAS (the framework used by lisper.ru and cliki2) is a bit less finicky ;) 10:43:03 you can (ql:quickload :your-app-pkg) 10:43:03 -!- imran_sr [~imran@99-72-224-160.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:43:52 pkhuong: the standard answer to that would be, i understand how that is supposed to work in principle, i don't know how to do it in weblocks. i can m-c-k the file fine but (weblocks-reset-sessions) does not seem to pick up the changes until i restart weblocks it self 10:44:08 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-234-132.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:44:33 pkhuong, I've observed similar behavior 10:44:45 changes do not always take effect 10:44:57 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-126-5.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:01 perhaps it has to do with huchentoot threading? 10:45:21 and because i know so little about lisp and slime i cannot tell if it is my error or somethign else going on so i have to bruteforce a solution 10:46:42 i've had problems with asdf/cl itself even. had a symbol I needed to shadow, did so and it wouldn't compile. after numerous diff. edits it finally compiled, and wound up at the *original* code w/the first shadow statement working just fine 10:47:02 no explanation 10:47:10 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-130-117.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:47:50 hrm. question. each time i invoke slime from a different emacs instance, do they talk to the *same* inferior lisp, or each invoke their own? 10:47:56 ezakimak: looks like you're playing with tools you're not ready for yet. It helps to keep in mind that every form and definition in CL works by mutating the state of the running image. 10:48:16 ezakimak: each has its own unless you make slime connect to a specific swank server. 10:48:28 that's what I expected 10:48:46 i assume it searches for the next available port 10:49:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:49:10 can swank servers handle multiple clients? 10:49:43 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@dsl78-143-221-77.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:50:21 ezakimak: WFM. I assume you need threads for that to work well. 10:50:42 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 10:52:41 or asyncio 10:53:05 ezakimak: that wouldn't work well when one client is keeping the server occupied. 10:54:09 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@111.134.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 10:56:38 they'd have to lock round eval, but read and print can be fully asyncio 10:56:45 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-224-219.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:17 hrm. not so simple. 10:57:19 nm. 10:57:43 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.12.190] has quit [Quit: xyxu] 10:57:47 wonder how antiweb does it 10:57:49 i.e. not work well. Not that swank without threads works that well even with a single client. 10:58:52 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-126-5.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:59:42 -!- jesusito [~user@212.169.187.129] has left #lisp 11:00:43 metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 11:01:20 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-131-132.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:20 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-224-219.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:02:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:07:51 is there any preference between foop and foo-p for naming predicates? 11:08:50 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-131-132.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:09:02 ezakimak: ISTR a convention, but CL doesn't always respect it (e.g. defstruct).... I just go with whichever looks better. 11:09:23 istr? 11:09:24 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-226-197.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:49 ezakimak: about predicates http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node69.html#SECTION001000000000000000000 11:09:56 "i seem to recall" 11:09:57 -!- inkjetunit [~wrwrwr@unaffiliated/inkjetunit] has quit [Quit: qQ] 11:10:36 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 11:10:59 ezakimak: just learning weblock for the hell of it or working on a more substantial project? 11:11:18 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-121-23.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:32 ezakimak: or restyled version of cltl: http://filonenko-mikhail.github.com/cltl2-doc/en/preds.html#x41-3200006 11:12:01 asvil, thanks 11:12:07 holycow, a bigger project, I hope 11:13:09 sweet. i just need some simple apps to track things. if i can fix up the simple-blog app, that would be perfect for now 11:13:22 simple-blog works ok 11:13:41 one thing that caught me off-guard (I thought it was broken) is that he coded it with a randomized left-margin 11:14:02 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-226-197.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:14:03 so on the page that displays all the posts they are all askew 11:14:05 is it randomized? heh, i figured the author did that. i haven't gottent to fixing that yet. 11:14:14 i thought it was funny 11:14:35 i thought maybe his css was borked at first 11:14:54 heh, if ONLY css was that consistent 11:15:09 if i could just finish figuring out how all the pieces fit together and what knobs to turn, I think i can produce some good stuff with it 11:15:36 but the fact that all the examples are scattered all over the place is really slowing me down 11:15:38 yeah, that is all i am interesting in as well. figure out the knobs and how it all fits together. 11:15:45 -!- kilon_alios [~kilon@188.4.94.41.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:15:51 should we take it to #weblocks? 11:16:10 sure, not good spamming here i guess 11:17:13 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:18:59 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-174.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:19:05 kilon [~kilon@77.49.253.191.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:20:27 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-174.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:21:49 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-20-17.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:22:30 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 11:29:26 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:31:14 kilon_alios [~kilon@188.4.91.0.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:32:38 -!- kilon [~kilon@77.49.253.191.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:36:45 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-117-34.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:02 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-121-23.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:48:11 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:48:55 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 11:49:13 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@178-55-57-180.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:51:30 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 11:54:37 snearch [~snearch@f053011101.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:57:05 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 11:58:42 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:01:47 Lees [~slavadw@188.123.248.79] has joined #lisp 12:01:56 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:02:49 -!- robde [~robde@pC19F7DDB.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 12:04:44 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-117-34.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:07:44 -!- holycow [~fekoff@69.172.160.67] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:08:04 holycow [~fekoff@69.172.160.67] has joined #lisp 12:10:52 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client for Emacs)] 13:08:29 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:52 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-18-66.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:12 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 13:15:15 -!- r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:16:18 r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has joined #lisp 13:22:28 jewel [~jewel@183.62.46.82] has joined #lisp 13:24:14 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:26:50 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:27:27 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-136-148.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:35 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 13:31:06 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:33:33 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:34:41 hi, can I (room) to string? or use room equivalent with more machine readable output? I am using sbcl 13:36:21 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:36:22 puchacz, (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (room)) 13:36:29 dtw: thanks 13:38:05 re plotting, I might as well use PL/R directly http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/Tidbits/bernier/art_66/graphingWithR.html --- too bad the state of cl plotting is what it is 13:38:41 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-150-17.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:40:13 puchacz: what are you trying to do? 13:41:00 stassats: periodically see how much data my caches hold 13:41:35 roughly, so total allocated heap is good enough for me 13:42:32 can't you query your caches directly? 13:43:04 well, easier to check total allocation, trust me 13:53:21 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-225-62.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:45 Guthur [~user@host86-147-204-34.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:50 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:28 zeissoctopus 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[~user@host86-147-204-34.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:13:49 I have a problem related to trees. I have nodes that can be contained in one another. I can query this relation but it's not very cheap. I would like to build a tree/list of trees from this relationships. How would you implement this? 16:15:29 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@27-162-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:56 So... you have a tree of nodes, and the operation for querying for the edges is expensive? 16:17:48 Sorry, let me try again. You have a /graph/ of nodes, that takes the form of a tree, and querying for the edges is expensive? 16:18:31 nyef: yes 16:18:49 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 16:19:13 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.193.55] has joined #lisp 16:19:41 I actually have polygons that can be nested and I can query wheter they are nested. I would likt to get a tree from this 16:19:42 So, what's the real problem? Is the structure you're trying to build important, or are you just trying to make it cheaper to find the edges? 16:19:53 dan64- [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 16:19:53 -!- dan64- [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:20:28 imagine the polygons being the limits of islands with holes in them (possibly containing other islands with holes) 16:20:48 i'd like to extract islands with holes 16:20:51 Hrm. Are they allowed to overlap? Do overlapping nodes count as nested if neither is not fully overlapped by the other? 16:21:00 no, no overlapping is allowed 16:21:34 the polygons are the result of a cutting operation through a 3d manifold 16:22:21 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 16:22:34 What internal data structure do you have thus far? 16:22:50 a sequence of polygons 16:23:03 polygons are themselves sequences of vertives 16:23:18 which are lm:vectors 16:23:24 So, no classes or structures, really? 16:23:38 dan64- [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 16:23:53 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 16:24:13 I've already written functions that query the childhood/parenthood relation between rings (the polygons I've described) 16:25:04 But TYPE-OF on a ring returns something type-equivalent to lm:vector ? 16:25:05 I've also tried by creating a parenthood matrix 16:25:21 nyef: it's a vector currently 16:25:48 Is there any reason you couldn't define a wrapper class around the vector? 16:25:52 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.10.145] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 16:25:59 no 16:26:11 -!- mensch [~mensch@c-67-189-240-148.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:26:20 well, I'd need to change some code maybe, but not too much 16:26:20 (defclass ring () ((vector :initarg :vector :accessor ring-vector))) or similar? 16:26:48 nyef: would be possible 16:27:04 I don't see where this leads though :) 16:27:11 Okay, once you've got that, you have a hook to add surrounding-ring and enclosed-rings slots to hold the edges of your graph. 16:28:23 That makes navigation cheap, and you now have the problem of building the graph (tree) out of your initial data set. 16:28:32 I still don't understand what the problem is (: There's a poset of "islands" and... ? 16:28:55 nyef: i actually have a class for island which is exactly what you've described 16:29:29 So the problem is... initializing the parent/child relationship? 16:29:33 redscare [~ydl@BAKER-SEVEN-THIRTY.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:29:48 pkhuong: well i get a list of unstructured rings from the cutting process and I would like to obtain islands which are to be filled 16:29:52 nyef: yeah 16:30:10 sepi: I'm sorry, I don't get the metaphor. 16:30:25 pkhuong: the problem comes from 3d printing 16:31:13 you have a 3d object which you cut in slices. the cutting process gives you an unstructured list of rings that are either inside or outside borders of the object 16:31:19 How would I loop over a permutation of 2 lists? so if i have (1,2,3) and (4,5,6) i want to somehow act on (1,4), (1,5), (1,6), (2,4), (2,5), (2,6), (3,4), (3,5), (3,6) 16:31:55 redscare: is that a homework? 16:32:08 redscare: how would you loop over one list? 16:32:09 nope. i'm learning lisp for myself. 16:32:18 pkhuong: I'd like to construct objects that have an outside ring and potentially many inside rings. This object which i've called islands will then be filled when printed 16:32:33 pkhuong: (mapcar #'function (1,2,3)) 16:32:41 The simple solution is to start with the set of all rings and the set of rings that have been partially initialized for parent/child relationships (initially empty). Consider each uninitialized ring in turn, see if it is contained by any rings in the initialized set. If it is, recurse on the containing ring to see if it is contained by a child ring. Otherwise, see if it contains any ring in the initialized set... 16:32:50 (1,2,3) is not valid lisp syntax 16:34:02 stassats: sorry copy-pasted 16:34:10 i meant (mapcar #'function (1 2 3)) 16:34:28 anyhow, you know how to iterate over one list, now just do that with two lists 16:34:53 You can possibly do clever things to speed up this initialization, such as using BSP trees to make finding possibly-enclosing rings easier, but getting the basic logic working first would be a good step. 16:34:58 francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176172076.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:35:41 sepi: depending on what makes determining containment slow, it might make sense to maintain a forest of maximal elements. That way containment only has to be tested on each subtree's root, and the rest of the edges can be filled in recursively. 16:35:53 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 16:36:48 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 16:36:52 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:37:02 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 16:37:03 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Client Quit] 16:37:11 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 16:37:12 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Client Quit] 16:37:21 sepi: have you considered using spatial partitioning, such as octrees or BSP? would it help if you split the polygons into convex polys, say triangles? 16:37:29 nyef: by set of partially initialized rings, do you mean what i called islands? 16:37:35 stassats: with two lists i don't get permutations, i get the first element from both, then the second, etc. i want all elements combined 16:37:49 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 16:37:52 btbngr: yeah, I'll eventually use quadtrees I think 16:37:54 and it's not permutations 16:38:03 uh, yeah, i meant quadtrees. :) 16:38:08 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:38:09 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 16:38:11 redscare: be creative 16:38:15 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:38:46 stassats: i was hoping for the most efficient way. creating a list of lists or nesting mapcars and loops? 16:39:05 -!- slilo [~user@host-94-251-99-133.bbcustomer.zsttk.net] has left #lisp 16:39:18 you're learning lisp, why do you care about the most efficient way? 16:39:31 sepi: I mean ones for which you haven't found its place in the tree. 16:39:35 i also notice nyef already suggested bsp, i should really read the backlog before writing. i'll be quiet now... 16:39:46 redscare: what do you think? How would you create that list of lists? 16:40:10 redscare: solve it in any way you can first, then think about it 16:40:28 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 16:40:41 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:40:47 stassats, pkhuong: thanks for your help, i'll look into it a little more myself 16:40:53 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 16:40:58 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:41:08 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 16:41:16 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:41:33 -!- dan64- [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 16:41:35 redscare: If you mean that for every item in the first list you want it combined, pair wise, with every item in the second list then I'm confident you can phrase that in lisp without much effort at all. 16:41:50 Dodek [am291698@duch.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 16:42:02 tali713: really? i can't think of a one-liner... 16:42:11 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 16:42:22 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:42:23 tali713: just getting started with lisp though so i may be missing somethign obvious 16:42:26 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 16:42:30 redscare: why, i just gave you one, (in english) the lisp version is only /more/ concise. 16:42:32 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 16:42:32 redscare: can you think of a two-liner? 16:42:41 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:42:51 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 16:42:55 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:43:05 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 16:43:10 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:45:00 (loop for a in *l1* collect (loop for b in *l2* collect (cons a b))). but is this efficient? 16:45:07 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 16:45:20 why do you care about efficiency? 16:45:33 do i really need to create a brand new list in memory if all i want to do is loop over this with a function and then lose it? 16:46:03 so, why don't you do that? 16:46:06 stassats: i'm learning a new language, i don't want to get into a habit of doing things the slow way 16:46:15 just wondering about best practices 16:46:25 get into the habit of not prematurely optimizing 16:46:43 Best practice? Step one: Make it work. Step two: Make it right. Step three: Make it fast. 16:46:59 redscare: memory comes and goes, you can't be bothered by these little things until /after/ you have demonstrated that there is an efficiency problem. then you can take your fully working code and make it better. do you have fully working code? 16:47:07 Step three a: does it need to be fast? 16:47:17 (loop for a in *l1* collect (loop for b in *l2* DO (print (list a b)))) 16:49:48 ok. i will get more familiar with lisp before i try to make it speedy 16:50:10 sepi: the algorithm to use to build the tree will depend on the query you can do on your relation. 16:50:30 sepi: the easiest is if you can query the adjacency list, ie. the set of children for a given node. 16:51:01 sepi: if you can only query whether nodes a and b are related then the algorithm will be at least O(n*n). 16:51:34 As some backstory, I didn't bother with efficiency for my first major lisp project until it took more than eight hours for it to crash from startup, simulating a process that should have taken seconds at most. /Then/ I asked for help with optimization, and was shown how to bring the execution time down to where it belonged. 16:53:34 It's a lot easier to learn about efficiency techniques once you've already done something inefficiently. 16:55:01 -!- jesusito [~user@212.169.187.129] has left #lisp 16:56:48 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:17 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.94.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:04:37 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 17:04:41 -!- mel0on` [~user@h-91-136.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:05:54 -!- redscare [~ydl@BAKER-SEVEN-THIRTY.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:06:30 ngz [~user@103.69.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:32 sepi: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129430 17:12:44 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-18-66.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:14:18 sepi: if you have several roots, then just collect them in the last maphash of tree-root instead of returning just the first found. 17:16:06 -!- nydel [~jo@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:16:35 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:02 ebw` [~user@krlh-5f722753.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:15 pjb: oh, nice, I'll have a look at the code later but that might be exactly what I need 17:18:51 -!- ebw [~user@krlh-5f722753.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:19:00 sepi: you just need to generate the list of arcs from the relation. As I said, you might have to do an embedded pair of loops on the nodes. 17:21:15 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 17:22:59 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:25:31 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:11 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@27-162-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:28:41 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 17:29:38 -!- inkjetunit [~wrwrwr@unaffiliated/inkjetunit] has quit [Quit: qqqQQQQQq] 17:29:54 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@188.19.233.30] has joined #lisp 17:30:36 redscare [~ydl@18.189.102.194] has joined #lisp 17:30:39 -!- redscare [~ydl@18.189.102.194] has left #lisp 17:32:48 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:34:16 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:35:20 pjb: I don't get what equivalence-classes does :( 17:36:32 https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blobs/master/common-lisp/cesarum/list.lisp#line557 17:36:54 it computes the equivalence classes of the relation TEST. 17:37:21 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_class 17:38:19 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 17:40:12 sepi: in arcs-to-graph it puts together the arcs that have the same nodes in their first position. 17:41:50 razieliyo [~user@unaffiliated/razieliyo] has joined #lisp 17:42:29 pjb: ok, now I get it :) 17:42:31 prog thing can be used just to declare some vars within a function or piece of code? 17:43:08 let can be used for that 17:43:12 razieliyo: yes, but in general you'd rather use LET. 17:43:31 pjb: thanks 17:43:32 prog macros wrap several forms into a single one 17:45:16 kennyd: not really 17:45:43 stassats how so? 17:46:18 well, it's just not true 17:47:31 add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-54-85.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 17:50:03 -!- Joreji [~thomas@65-211.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:50:07 Joreji [~thomas@65-211.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 17:58:36 can anyone ql:quickload nibbles atm? I'm getting errors 17:58:45 what errors? 17:59:02 -!- kilon_alios [~kilon@188.4.91.0.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:59:17 "overwriting old FUN-INFO" 17:59:42 for NIBBLES::%CHECK-BOUND 17:59:51 That's... not good sounding. 18:00:06 What host lisp? 18:00:26 sbcl 1.0.55 18:00:30 sbcl, who else would complain in such way 18:00:55 would be nice to see a line # or something 18:00:59 True, CMUCL would be the other suspect, and they're more likely to just silently do the wrong thing. 18:01:12 Or just silently do something clever. 18:01:22 no, now you sound like php. ;) 18:01:38 lol thats actually pretty good quote 18:01:46 it makes %CHECK-BOUND an known function 18:02:09 *maxm-* meant nyef's one about inefficiency 18:02:15 I rather imagine that %CHECK-BOUND also names some internal magic in SBCL, and that the compiler could be getting confused, but that seems a touch unlikely. 18:02:34 well, if you evaluate defknown twice, it will complain 18:02:36 maxm-: Which one? 18:02:49 it also says: # 18:02:51 Ah, yes, if someone's messing with DEFKNOWN, then that might do it. 18:03:02 so looks like it could be a symbol problem 18:03:02 that its easier to learn about efficiency once you already have something up-and-running thats inefficient 18:03:25 maxm-: Ah, that one. Well, it IS. 18:03:34 you should like tweet it 18:03:36 no better way to learn to tune a car than to start with one that's misfiring... 18:03:43 ezakimak: delete fasls and try again 18:03:54 are they all in the cache? 18:03:58 coz every time I do #lisp search, its always colledge girls and teh same joke about values of nothing 18:04:00 cause I've deleted the cache already 18:04:08 wherever you keep them 18:04:20 it's just quicklisp/asdf defaults 18:04:40 Okay, DEFKNOWN is in SB-C, which is a private package, so there's no obligation to support it. (-: 18:04:56 maxm-: I don't have a twitter account, nor do I particularly want one. Sorry. 18:05:15 defknown usually just works, don't evaluate it twice and you won't get any errors 18:05:21 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:05:28 its either SBCL forgot to gensym something in one of the macros, or he nibbles have two different ftype declarations 18:06:38 I'm not getting the error btw 18:07:00 with 1.0.50.46 18:07:18 maxm-: I fail to see how this could be related to gensym. 18:08:45 ok. wow. it worked that time. 18:08:52 pkhuong: some SBCL macro expanding into doing (flet ((%CHECK-BOUNDS% ()))) without using (with-gensyms (%check-bounds) (flet ((,%check-bounds))) 18:08:59 it's most likely a problem with asdf, it compiles things in a weird order 18:08:59 didn't do anything different. i cleared the cache, restarted sbcl, and it worked. 18:09:19 ezakimak: the file is fine, it just can't be loaded twice. 18:09:32 ohh. cause i've tried to load it many times 18:09:36 like compiling deftransform first, and then defknowns 18:09:36 *maxm-* remembers something similar.. Actuall that may have been with inability to do (with-slots ) on a slot named with CL exported symbol, due to symbol-macrolet failing on package lock 18:09:43 gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:09:43 so i can't quickload more than once because that thing is broken? 18:09:45 maxm-: still. Your understanding of packages and symbols seems broken. 18:10:35 ezakimak: hard to tell which part is broken here, but, no, you can't load it twice in the same image. OTOH, asdf should take of that during normal usage. 18:10:53 seems asdf is quirky sometimes in that regard 18:11:03 ezakimak: you can quickload it more than once 18:11:56 pkhuong: its probably not actually knowing what FUN-INFO is.. Ppl know my methods.. I try 5 different things, one of them usually the correct one :-) 18:11:57 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@cpe-98-14-80-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:14:42 maxm-: it would be nice if you didn't actively confuse others. 18:15:40 francogrex [~user@109.130.134.245] has joined #lisp 18:15:59 how those files are loaded is specified in a somewhat weird way 18:16:01 maxm-: In the python compiler (either the CMUCL or SBCL version of it), a FUN-INFO is a structure that keeps track of information about a function, macro, or special form known to the compiler. Generally, it's not something that a user should even be aware of. 18:16:54 nyef: yes that was what i susspected based on the name and error message.. Does ftype modifies it? 18:17:00 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-147-204-34.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:17:04 maxm-: no. 18:17:29 *maxm-* had seen some really strange things out of SBCL lately.. Like in certail load order of FASL's, suddenly alien type FIELDS slot is nil 18:17:42 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:14 or somehow system B, when one of the files is compiled at the presense of system A, somehow loading B's without system A loaded, throws can't find package A. Recompiling everything seems to fix it... Its very hard to reproduce due to ASDF bug with load order of partially compiled systems 18:19:17 https://github.com/froydnj/nibbles/blob/master/nibbles.asd#L34 so it first compiles fndb.lisp for nib-trans depends on it 18:19:29 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:19:49 but then when x86-64-vm is loaded it does (asdf:load-op "fndb") on it, which loads the fals the second time, and caboom 18:19:56 and it's nondeterministic 18:20:43 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 18:20:44 i don't understand why people can't just #+sbcl the thing 18:20:44 ... I am SO glad that I don't use ASDF for my own stuff anymore. 18:20:54 and instead do some weird dance 18:21:21 nyef: do you use NSDF? 18:21:28 stassats, can you fix it in time for the next quicklisp release? 18:21:40 i? 18:21:50 is it an easy fix? 18:22:49 it's an easy fix with #+sbcl and #+x86, but froydnj may say, like nikodemus said to me earlier, "what about system introspection?" 18:22:55 to which i have no reply 18:23:01 it could be wrapper to aumatically select the continue restart. 18:23:09 stassats: use madeira-port 18:23:15 ... *wrapped to automatically, even. 18:23:32 stassats: is it really the conditionalization that's the problem? 18:24:17 pkhuong: i think the problem is (asdf:load-op "fndb"), if it's not executed first 18:24:29 stassats: For work, I use a custom package-dependency-based build system that I put together. And I haven't done any personal hacking involving more than one file outside of SBCL in ages. 18:25:00 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 18:25:31 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-54-85.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 18:25:37 nyef: i tend not to use anything more than :serial t, so asdf for me is like a glorified load.lisp file 18:25:41 stassats: There's always :serial t... 18:26:04 right, but would somebody think of scaling to thousands of cores! 18:26:23 stassats: Did :serial t for a while, but maintaining the list got to be a pain, so I just did the dependency thing and declared a (much smaller) list of "root packages". 18:27:26 not thousand of cores, but my thing takes around 2 minutes to rebuild 18:28:11 so with :serial t its frustrating to add new utility to whatever-macros.lisp (which needs high up the list list), and then wait 2 minutes 18:28:11 *sshirokov* uses heavy usage of :depends-on (..) 18:28:28 and even serial t does not save you from the load order 18:28:29 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:28:43 *sshirokov* is exceedingly happy with his choice 18:29:18 are you? 18:29:37 Yeah 18:29:43 sshirokov: is it because you like to do extra work for no benefit? 18:29:46 I tried :serial t early on and it just bugged me 18:30:00 No, it's because I like sane dependency descriptions 18:30:03 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:30:51 why do you need dependency descriptions? 18:31:17 ebw`` [~user@krlh-4d0202be.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:22 hm, nibble even has README put into defsystem 18:31:40 i guess it won't compile without it present 18:31:56 Well, for one I can rearrange my deps logically in the ASDF without having to worry about load order 18:32:19 And it makes it easier for me to read what I would have to consider in large refactors 18:32:38 And it saves me from a lot of cases where something works as a coincidence of where I put it 18:33:06 well, those dependencies are hand specified, it doesn't mean that they are right 18:33:13 So I can then extract chunks of the system with a bit more confidence 18:33:23 azrael_ [~azraelgot@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:33:41 Right, but at least there's something there. If it helps you, you're welcome to consider the :depends-on lists comments 18:33:48 Though lightly enforced ones 18:33:51 Hello 18:33:56 it would have been sane if it automatically figured which file depends on which 18:33:59 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:34:05 otherwise, it's just lame 18:34:25 stassats: kind of hard to do for CL. 18:34:34 That tends to go into a weird java/python classpath route 18:35:01 -!- ebw` [~user@krlh-5f722753.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:35:10 pkhuong: it's not easy to do by hand either 18:36:03 Paste in 18:36:17 Doah, thanks iPad 18:36:34 Pastebin 18:37:34 Hrm, isn't there some command that tells me where the paste bin is? 18:37:46 azrael_: no 18:37:54 you can look at the topic, though 18:38:36 Ah right. Thanks. :) 18:39:49 Hrm, it doesn't show up here automatically? 18:39:54 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.134.245] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:40:28 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:40:49 Http://paste.lisp.org/display/129431 18:41:31 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@cpe-98-14-80-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:39 azrael_: the bots are in convalescence. 18:42:31 Ok, I've set up this reader for hash maps but when using it in a lift test file it seems to try and apply the reader function again but read is returning null somehow. Do anyone see anything obviously wrong? 18:42:32 azrael_: where's the error? 18:43:11 I thought it was a problem with lift, but I put it in a function in that file that isn't even called and it still exhibits this problem so I guess it's me somehow 18:43:40 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:58 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:43:59 adu [~ajr@ip-64-134-96-117.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:22 your code is too complex to understand and help 18:45:15 In case that wasn't coherent; tl;dr: I put (hash:copy #{a 1, b 2, c 3}) in a function as the last form, the function isn't called but it's crashing. 18:45:49 The hash is read properly with no problem, but for some reason it tries to read in a second hash that doesn't exist and returns nil 18:45:50 maybe parens are allergic to curly-braces ? 18:46:09 azrael_: we're missing too much code to reproduce your test case. 18:46:43 why did you set-macro-character to } ? 18:46:51 it returns nil 18:47:07 or whatever you return 18:47:21 Ok, annotated the paste with a function 18:47:31 azrael_: if you tell us how it crashes, that's another way to get help. 18:47:59 ; Undefined functions: ; MAKE PUT! 18:48:23 Sorry, im trying. Wife is pestering me, etc. can't keep up. 18:48:53 and #{ is not defined anywhere as a macro 18:49:10 either paste a reduced test-case, or paste the whole thing 18:49:22 Ok, annotated with put! Function 18:49:36 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 18:49:54 and is make make-hash-table? 18:50:23 azrael_: cl:get doesn't work on hash tables. 18:50:25 And now annotated with macro setup 18:51:12 azrael_, your prior line coulda been read so wrong... heh. 18:51:24 :) 18:51:34 And now make and get are annotated 18:52:04 Im closing in on a record no doubt 18:52:32 I don't know what defun-alias is. 18:52:35 you can't use get in setf like that 18:52:53 you need (defun (setf get) ...) 18:52:54 I replaced all the non-standard hash table stuff with standard calls, and it works here. 18:52:57 LISP-newbie [44c6d910@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.198.217.16] has joined #lisp 18:53:18 It works fine. It's just something odd that's happening in lift now. 18:53:35 so what's the problem? 18:53:37 do you want just to read #{} as a hashtable? your code is way too complicated 18:53:56 Hi all. I'm a CS\math minor who has been enticed by functional programming. 18:54:02 azrael_: if we can't reproduce the problem, we can't really help you. 18:54:42 I know, I hope im not seeming impatient or something 18:55:01 Annotated with defun-alias 18:55:25 I am using CLISP+ SLIME w\ emacs. question: inside REPL sometimes when typing in expressions the text turns bold and the REPL will stop evaluating...why? 18:55:26 azrael_: well, given that we don't even have a test case, it's hard to help you. 18:55:32 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:55:47 BrianRice [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:55 Well, the test case is a giant macro soup lift test file 18:56:32 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 18:56:47 I put in the function that causes the problem. That function isn't even called or referenced anywhere. Just being in the .lisp file is enough. I guess I should mention, im on sbcl on mac 18:57:00 LISP-newbie: Can you post an example? 18:57:01 azrael_: what do you do with that file? 18:57:03 Lisp-newbie: because you typed something wrong somewhere wrong 18:57:15 LISP-newbie: hmm and typing enter a few times will resume? 18:57:23 azrael_: can you describe steps to reproduce the problem, starting from a fresh sbcl instance? 18:57:36 -!- rson [~randy@c-68-32-170-89.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:57:37 I have a reasonably large test suite to test out the library im writing. 18:58:20 azrael_: reducing the test case can help you understand where the bug is. 18:58:24 you sure you don't use debug 3 or something? 18:58:37 coz that would prevent get from being inline (I actually not sure) 18:58:44 maxm-: what are you talking about?! 18:58:50 Well, I suppose I could make a minimal package that breaks. I was thinking someone would go "oh your missing an eval-when". 18:58:56 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Client Quit] 18:59:00 why the hell do you make make an alias to make-hash-table? 18:59:04 no...but my expresssion was on the order of (ash (lambda (arg) (func-op var arg) arg ) -1) 18:59:09 azrael_: hard to tell when we don't know how you set up the environment. 18:59:29 pkhuong: he has (defun put! (hash key value) (setf (get hash key) value)) 18:59:51 azrael_: here's your bug (result (make :test equal)). 18:59:57 unless I'm an idiot, that only works when (defun get) is inline, which he does have 19:00:11 LISP-newbie: there should be a debugger window pooping up 19:00:18 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 19:00:22 -!- harish [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:00:39 clisp, being clisp, of course can just crash 19:00:41 azrael_: ah, no. You have it defined up there. 19:00:52 debugger never came up 19:01:07 LISP-newbie: can you look in *inferior-lisp* buffer? 19:01:13 maxm-: might want to test your theories before confusing newbies. 19:01:18 i can 19:01:22 -!- TDJACR [~TDJACR@lilug/member/tdjacr] has left #lisp 19:01:22 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:01:32 azrael_: your code is bad and you should feel bad, rewrite it in a sane way first 19:01:35 hmm ok I'll go test it 19:01:58 no wonder it doesn't work 19:02:05 stassats: Because make-hashtable is putting the namespace in the function name. I have made a library where I make heavy use of packages for the namespace. In my library I can say hash:make instead of make-hashtqble 19:02:29 azrael_: fun. But I don't want to deal with your personal libraries. 19:02:36 stassats: are you always so helpful? I didnt come here to get a tongue lashing from you. 19:03:08 but you got it 19:03:21 pkhuong: I dont mean to ask you too. Im not overwriting anything really fundamental. 19:03:26 azrael_: and the minimal testing that I can try on my end without knowing how you trigger what error seems to do what I expect. 19:03:40 this is the last entry in the *inferior-lisp* window: While executing: SWANK-BACKEND::WARN-UNIMPLEMENTED-INTERFACES, in process 19:04:08 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.2.171] has joined #lisp 19:04:08 nobody interested in helping you debug some monstrous function written in some weird bastardization of CL 19:04:18 stassats: I dont know anything about you so your insults are pretty meaningless. Do you even make a living writing code? 19:04:21 but how does that have anything to do with my REPL thread? 19:04:53 If your trying to be Eric naggum then I think you didnt understand him. He wasnt a jerk just to be a jerk. 19:05:03 azrael_: i'm insulting your code, not you 19:05:28 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176172076.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:05:58 if you want to live in a bubble where nobody is criticizing your output, then #lisp is not for you 19:06:03 I should feel bad, etc. thats just to insult my code? 19:06:07 azrael_: since it seems to work on my end, the problem is probably in the rest of the code... Better reduce your test case a lot. 19:06:13 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:06:32 harish [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 19:06:48 pkhuong: Good advice. I wanted to make sure it wasnt a simple oveersight first before carving out a small test case 19:07:36 LISP-newbie: can you do C-c C-c in the repl? 19:07:39 and see what happens 19:07:42 stassats: I have no problem with constructive critisism. Getting name called and told my code is. So bad I should feel bad doesnt help anything and is rather maningless since for all I know you could be some thirteen year old boy 19:08:05 *maxm-* still does not get it how his definition of (get ..) could possible be used it setf.. I'm making assumption he shadows get.. azrael_ you sure your get is hash::get and not cl::get? 19:08:28 Im sure. Sec, missing another annotate. :) 19:08:29 azrael_: you can stop talking to me, ok? 19:08:42 VieiraN [~VieiraN@177.103.136.6] has joined #lisp 19:08:46 Sure, if you do me the same curtousy. 19:08:51 azrael_: this isn't where the problem lies. 19:09:31 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 19:09:38 I doubt you'll receive any useful help until you can describe a short series of steps to reproduce your problem. 19:09:46 maxm-: Annotated 19:10:11 pkhuong: Understood. Just wanted to clear up maxm-s confusion 19:10:15 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-17.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:10:16 too bad one can't quote dr. Zoidberg without antagonizing peers, oh well 19:10:35 kilon [~kilon@188.4.91.0.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:11:10 *maxm-* feels he misunderstood some very obvious thing in Lisp, that somehow failed to notice until now.. pkhuong can you explain where my error is? I just did what he does, and I'm getting WARNING: undefined function (setf get) when doing (defun put! ..) just I I said initially 19:11:34 ah now its right 19:12:40 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-17.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:12:51 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-17.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:12:56 maxm-: well, if you shadow get to redefine it 19:12:56 maxm-: I have no clue where it is, but it's not in the missing definitions or he'd get a very clear undefined-function condition. 19:13:00 mel0on [~user@h-91-136.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 19:13:01 is an unhandled memory fault more likely from elephant+ffi+bdb or an actual hardware problem? 19:13:08 azrael_: basically there probably more surprises like that missing defsetf that had confused me.. You need to create a minimal example, including defpackage and such 19:13:10 ezakimak: from ffi 19:13:28 ezakimak: blaming hardware is the last step. 19:13:33 minion: advice on ram? 19:13:33 #11924: Well, if you don't know what it does, why did you put it in your program? 19:13:37 argh 19:13:41 well, i did just upgrade recently 19:13:48 minion: advice on bad ram? 19:13:48 #11909: Bad programmer! No cookie! 19:14:05 maxm-: Yea I know. I was hoping I was misunderstanding something about compile time defimitions or some such. 19:14:12 minion: advice 12000 19:14:13 Looking for a compiler bug is the second-to-last resort. The last resort is blaming bad RAM. It's never the correct hypothesis. 19:14:16 vervic [~vervic@88.116.134.106] has joined #lisp 19:14:17 here you go 19:14:42 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-17.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:14:57 wasn't whole bruhaha over cffi was because test system it used evaluated the forms rather then compiling them? 19:14:59 so how do you debug memory faults? 19:15:17 ezakimak: look where it happens, read the code, think hard 19:15:40 maxm-: no, the problem is that the compiler macro wasn't doing the same thing as the out of line function. 19:15:42 it's not my code... 19:15:55 ezakimak: that doesn't change anything 19:16:18 you can get some clue by the address where the memory fault occurred 19:16:30 backtrace is 3 lines: 2 *foreign function: post_signal_tramp* 1 *foreign function: call_into_lisp* 0 SB-SYS:MEMORY-FAULT-ERROR 19:16:32 ezakimak: look at the backtrace, think hard, or report a bug to the mailing list(s) who can help. 19:16:46 ezakimak: just three lines? 19:16:50 yep. 19:16:55 -!- adu [~ajr@ip-64-134-96-117.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 19:16:58 i click "more" and get another error: args out of range 19:17:12 fault at #x7D0 19:17:51 pkhuong: I know the story, and I in fact found the damn bug.. I meant that the test system they use, (it was not stefil), does not run compiler-macros.. Maybe lift does same thing, so azrael_ could be bitten by load-time vs compile-time stuff 19:18:13 maxm-: READing happens at read-time. 19:18:15 azrael_: reduce your test, try it without lift.. if it works without lift, check that it actually compiles stuff 19:18:32 azrael_: the test case should be a call to read-from-string, really. 19:19:07 ezakimak: it's possible that your memory got corrupted 19:19:15 and it's not easy to debug 19:19:17 maxm-: It does seem to work fine without lift but what confuses me is if I put a hash literal anywhere in the lift test file it causes the crash. Even when lift shouldnt be aware of it. 19:19:37 azrael_: how does it crash? 19:19:46 what do you mean by hash literal? 19:19:49 pkhuong: Read-string works, in the REPL it works. 19:19:54 azrael_: if I can't reproduce and I don't know what the error is, you're asking for a lot of telepathy here. 19:20:11 -!- dze [~user@168.Red-79-159-7.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:20:17 azrael_: where is your (set-macro-character) executed 19:20:20 coz if its in the same file 19:20:28 then by the time its executed, file had already been parsed 19:20:37 maxm-: it better be set-dispatch-macro-character. 19:20:39 maxm-: The reader function I pasted is to let me put hash literals in code as you can with vectors etc 19:21:11 pkhuong: could you stop with it, we both know what I meant... go ahead and kick me from the channel or sometihng, if you are so sure I'm misleading the guy 19:21:23 azrael_: but, like maxm- just pointed out, we have no idea how you're using that function. 19:21:24 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:21:43 azrael_: where is your set-dispatch-macro-character call? 19:21:50 pkhuong: I know now that you can't work it out without a test case. Im not expecting you too, only answering what im asked 19:22:01 maxm-: using set-macro-character instead of set-dispatch-macro-character would be one way to cause a "crash". 19:22:11 azrael_: how does it crash? 19:22:24 What happens is: from slime I do , l my-library 19:22:47 That works, then , l my-library-test 19:23:18 azrael_: remember that the call to set-dispatch-macro-character need to be in effect _before_file_is_actually_parsed_ 19:23:19 I put in some debugging code and I see the hash in the file read properly, then at some point later I see the reader get invoked again but there aren't any more hashes 19:23:31 maxm-: Of course 19:23:56 azrael_: what do you see instead? 19:23:59 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 19:24:07 So the load-system my-library-test ends up crashing on a read error 19:24:18 what's the error? 19:24:23 well need to see teh backtrace of the "crash" and go from there. Does lift provide popping of debugger on errors? Try setting (setf *break-on-signals* t), that may stop it 19:24:26 What do you mean "there aren't any more hashes"? 19:24:28 The very first read returns null. But as you can see, it can't be elf 19:24:31 Eof 19:24:37 -!- vervic [~vervic@88.116.134.106] has quit [Quit: vervic] 19:25:00 pkhuong: There is only one hash literal in the file but the reader is invoked twice somehow 19:25:37 is there any other mentions of { characater in the file? or other files? 19:25:59 azrael_: and what is the error? 19:26:04 it would be extremely funny, if its another instance of adding directory to local-projects, and then having my-project.bak with old code there 19:26:05 The second time all read calls return null which causes a crash when it gets to the separator (note that key and value can be nil, that's no problem) 19:26:16 maxm-: No 19:26:50 azrael_: did you by any chance made a backup of your project directory.. As in cp -rp myprojec myproject.old or such? 19:26:50 (when I say null I usually mean nil. Autocorrect is a gift and curse at the same time) 19:27:09 azrael_: it might just be that *read-suppress* is true. 19:27:22 Well, right now I delete all the fasls between loading to make sure I get a clean build every time 19:27:58 azrael_: Just to check for that case (since we spent hours debugging some other guy who ended up having this problem), do (asdf:find-system :your-project), then inspect it, and see that all files are indeed coming from the correct place 19:28:03 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Client Quit] 19:28:06 azrael_: what is the error? 19:28:10 maxm-: Im not sure what you mean. Im using git and I do very granular check ins 19:28:18 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-asgosxemahrjwfkd] has joined #lisp 19:28:28 so i switched my sbcl to run with LANG=en_US.UTF-8, and now in one file I get an error complaining about :EXTERNAL-FORMAT :ASCII 19:29:01 in cl-langutils-20111105-git/data/stem-dict.txt 19:29:10 pkhuong: In the code I read key, then Val, then separator which should be a comma or closing bracket. Im getting nil instead because all reads return nil. 19:29:22 azrael_: if you have ~/lisp-projects directory with multiple projects, then use ASDF :tree facility to make it find all .asd files in ~/lisp-projects... If you by any chance copied ~/lisp-project/myproject to ~/lisp-project/myproject.bak, ASDF may pickup the asd file in .bak directory 19:29:46 azrael_: ah, so there's no CL:ERROR? ok. check if *read-suppress* is true. 19:29:57 asvil [~asvil@178.121.94.18] has joined #lisp 19:30:37 maxm-: Ah ok. But this problem only happened recently when I changed my reader function. Previously I was parsing the whole thing as a string. Now I've changed it to leverage the built in read function as much as possible 19:30:47 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-18-66.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:47 pkhuong: Cool, will do 19:31:22 and I thought there was an actual error. 19:31:42 maxm-: Hence the tight control of what read will return in a given situation. That way I can ensure that I can have nil keys and so on without trouble. 19:31:43 i don't know why my version of #{} is much shorter and simpler, but here it is http://paste.lisp.org/display/129431#7 19:31:52 pkhuong: Sorry for the confusition. 19:31:54 azrael_: just covering all the bases... is your code even called? you can probably put (break) just before (read ..) and see if it pops the debugger.. Then you can look into local vars, to verify that STREAM has the right value 19:32:15 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-17.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:32:25 maxm-: It's called. I put a bunch of debugging in there to verify exactly that and it shows up 19:32:40 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@188.19.233.30] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 19:32:58 nikodemus [~nikodemus@176-93-191-189.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:33:11 azrael_: is the error that you get "seperator (,) or terminator (}) expected"? 19:33:14 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:33:29 stassats: Thank you for your constructive feed back. I notice that your hash will always be equal. Mine uses eql unless string keys are used 19:33:40 pkhuong: Exactly 19:33:50 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-17.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:33:57 azrael_: you could have said as much when I asked what the error was. 19:34:00 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:11 azrael_: yes, it looks like *read-suppress*. 19:34:13 pkhuong: Im sorry. I missed it. 19:34:19 *maxm-* has a feeling of not native english speaker maybe 19:34:30 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.227.117] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:34:41 maxm-: Ack. No just trying to keep up from an iPad. :( 19:34:42 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-17.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:34:44 clhs *read-suppress* 19:34:44 -!- pspace [~andrew@c-24-5-81-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:34:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_rd_sup.htm 19:35:18 well, another case of humans 1, computer 0 19:35:32 azrael_: especially the note. 19:35:46 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.52.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:35:54 pspace [~andrew@c-24-5-81-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:01 does it matter if sbcl is built in an UTF-8 build environment or not? 19:36:07 ezakimak: no. 19:36:26 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-17.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:36:42 it matters where it's started 19:36:55 well it's definitely UTF-8 right now 19:37:31 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:41 is it possible that asdf built stuff in non UTF-8 enironment (UTF-8 is not global yet on my system) 19:37:45 but the build used to bomb if one of the environment variables contained non-ASCII sequences 19:38:01 did that get fixed ? 19:38:07 i think it did 19:38:18 *maxm-* is wondering whats the point of azrael_ system.. ie hash:get hash:put!... 19:38:20 i don't remember whether i committed it or not 19:38:28 usually ppl go and use CLOS instead 19:38:46 pkhuong: Thanks! That look like exactly like the oversight I was expecting that I was making 19:39:10 I assume he also has alist:get alist:put and such 19:39:13 maxm-: I'd rather not say here, makes people mad. :). I'll tell you in private if you like 19:39:38 And I do use clos, I just allow direct calls when you'd rather not have clos overhead or something 19:39:55 azrael_: ah cool.. ignore ppl who are mad :-) if they had their way, we would still be programming with (tagbody) and (go) 19:40:14 or would be abusing clos :) 19:40:21 ah cool, msg me privately, I'd like to look at your stuff once you finished 19:40:47 azrael_: all that time I was thinking that the problem was that you received a NIL instead of a hash table. 19:40:57 I have it set up so that (get collection key) will work for any collection, including non-built in ones 19:41:14 vervic [~vervic@88.116.134.106] has joined #lisp 19:41:23 pkhuong: Im really sorry man. Totally my fault for not being fast enough to keep on top of it 19:41:52 Im getting old. :( 19:42:03 Should have discovered lisp 15 years ago or so 19:43:07 azrael_: yes, everybody should have learned about lisp much earlier. 19:43:20 azrael_: and 99% of the programmers still don't know about it! 19:43:36 Well, I didn't go through college so im going to blame that! 19:44:03 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-asgosxemahrjwfkd] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:44:05 actually, I had more early lisp exposure outside of college than inside 19:44:06 azrael_: I'd just use read-delimited-list and forget about the separators. If you must have commas, you can sort of hack it with (peek-char t), but that doesn't jump over comments. 19:44:15 I learned on the job. Ksh first, then C, then perl (still have nightmares), then c++, then burnout for 2 years, then smalltalk, then lisp 19:44:43 All paths lead to lisp. 19:44:58 -!- jpanest [~jpanest@108-166-73-199.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:44:58 If one is dedicated. Most are not 19:45:24 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c097c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:35 *maxm-* prefers to leave "write awesome generic framework that does everything" things in the "maybe" pile.. they get in a way of sucking your time out of doing what needs to be done 19:45:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-222.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:45:53 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 19:46:19 pkhuong: Im not sold 100% on the comma syntax as it looks alien in lisp code, but I don't want to have something like #{(key . Val) (key2 . Val)} even if that's kind of what im presenting 19:46:45 azrael_: what's wronth with #{key val key val} ? 19:46:48 *wrong even. 19:47:36 pkhuong: Don't know, I toyed with it. You don't think people will get confused if the hash has 10 elements? There would be no visual clues which is the key and which the value 19:48:11 I mean, if the key and values have the same type. Obviously if one is e.g. A string and the other a number then it's clear 19:48:17 azrael_: even with commas or colons, I just break these long lists to have one pair per line. 19:48:30 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:48:40 pkhuong: Hrm, thats a good point. I do that as well actually 19:49:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 19:50:56 And that would simplify the code tremendously. I dont like how long it is, but this covers all edge cases afaik 19:50:57 TDJACR [~TDJACR@lilug/member/tdjacr] has joined #lisp 19:51:19 E.g. Null key, eof in unexpected places and so on 19:51:32 azrael_: read-delimited-list takes care of all that. 19:51:38 Yep 19:51:45 Reading up on it now 19:53:11 ok, i think i know the problem? cl-langutil is doing with-open-file :external-format :ascii, but the file has non-ascii in it (octect sequence 233) 19:53:16 how can i be the first to hit this? 19:53:28 azrael_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129431#8 19:55:47 ezakimak: I think it's common practice when processing english to normalize all accentuated characters away. 19:56:05 hrm. for some reason it's breaking it though 19:57:04 trebor_home [~email@dslb-088-069-155-235.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:17 ezakimak: sbcl treats :ascii as 7 bits, everyone hits this every week when trying out system by a european guy with umlaut in his name 19:57:44 ezakimak: does it use embedded :ascii? Because otherwise the fix is to start SBCL with LANG=en_US.UTF-8 or similar 19:58:19 stassats: Thanks. Why do you need to use cddr? The doc says it r-d-l returns a list of pairs so you could just destructure right in the loop, no? 19:58:21 i did start it with LANG=en_US.UTF-8 19:58:34 clhs r-d-l 19:58:35 read-delimited-list: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_del.htm 19:58:47 azrael_: it does not say that 19:59:07 ezakimak: just a quick check, does sb-impl::*default-external-format* from repl prints :UTF-8? 19:59:21 yes 19:59:31 "Suppose you wanted #{a b c ... z} to read as a list of all pairs of the elements a, b, c, ..., z, for example." 19:59:34 ok then its cl-langutil fault for hardcoding :ascii 19:59:38 DDR [~chatzilla@d142-179-78-231.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:53 yes, it hardcodes :ascii 19:59:55 you should submit bugreport to the author 19:59:58 "#{p q z a} reads as ((p q) (p z) (p a) (q z) (q a) (z a))" 20:00:00 azrael_: it's an example 20:00:04 sure, but how do I fix it today? 20:00:14 "suppose you want #{p q z a} to be read as ((p q) (p z) (p a) (q z) (q a) (z a))" 20:00:31 ezakimak: are you sure the library is meant to handle non-ascii input? 20:00:38 is there a unix tool to strip the file? or should I remove the :ascii in the library? 20:00:42 i have no idea what it even does 20:00:47 just that it's breaking on me 20:00:47 stassats: Ack, never mind, reading fail on my part 20:00:53 ezakimak: go to source, remove :ascii, and C-c C-c the form 20:01:03 ezakimak: where does it break? Do you have a backtrace? 20:01:33 -!- Lees [~slavadw@188.123.248.79] has quit [] 20:01:43 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:02:29 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:03:12 pkhuong: Btw, you were right. 20:03:31 Thanks for your help even one. Even the person im not supposed to talk to anymore. :) 20:03:46 Every one. Ffs. Hard to believe I type. For 20:03:52 For a living 20:04:12 holycow [~fekoff@69.172.160.67] has joined #lisp 20:04:14 hrm. pastebin hung 20:04:22 did you paste to #lisp channel? 20:04:28 tried to 20:04:32 ezakimak: it's only hung reporting success. It succeeded. 20:04:35 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129432 20:04:43 oh. it didn't display to me 20:04:57 that's because you pasted to #lisp channel 20:05:13 oh right. echo is off. 20:06:33 i should really finish moving paste.lisp.org to hunchentoot, fix lisppaste and ship everything to c-l.net 20:06:49 the sooner the better, i'm tired of keeping my desktop on at night 20:07:10 ezakimak: oh neat. It's got a couple accents in latin-1. 20:07:57 azrael_: its fine, stassats is a valuable resource. Whenever anyone comes up with any kind of problem on this channel, he'll attempt to find eventual solution, which is more elegant, or shorter by one character, or similar 20:08:15 which sometimes helps 20:08:28 ezakimak: I wonder when the data files changed. :ascii is the same on both ccl and sbcl (: 20:08:52 amazing how many bugs I've found in the last 24 hrs just trying to get my own stuff done 20:09:28 guess that's part of the job though 20:10:21 otoh, many fewer than in some other language's libs... 20:10:31 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-55-243.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:10:34 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-55-243.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:10:34 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-25-220.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 20:10:37 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-25-220.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 20:11:32 Who's running specbot and minion? I'm wondering if I could invite them to #lisp-pl. 20:12:14 ezakimak: that library seems to be on life support, and the data files are more recent than the loading code. You want :latin-1, though, not :utf-8. 20:12:30 for sbcl? or in the code? 20:13:01 ezakimak: in the code. The data files are in latin-1, not ascii or utf-8. 20:13:20 is there a tool to report that? i tried file on them and it just said ASCII text 20:14:13 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:14:28 mathrick [~mathrick@176.97.27.149] has joined #lisp 20:14:29 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@176-93-191-189.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:14:31 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:15:13 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:15:55 There's enca. You can also try iconv. file doesn't scan the whole file before reporting its guess, and the guilty characters start around line 17k. 20:16:22 antoszka: i am, atm 20:16:47 clhs open 20:16:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_open.htm 20:16:56 -!- vervic [~vervic@88.116.134.106] has quit [Quit: vervic] 20:16:59 Guthur [~user@host86-147-204-34.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:16:59 stassats: Would you mind sending them over to the Polish channel, too? 20:17:16 i wouldn't 20:17:46 vervic [~vervic@88.116.134.106] has joined #lisp 20:18:30 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.64.170] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 20:19:56 is there an implementation of cl that has a :sharing keyword arg for open? 20:20:08 ccl? 20:20:21 i guessed right 20:20:44 *stassats* requests a star or a cookie 20:20:52 is that clojure? 20:20:57 minion: ccl? 20:20:59 ccl: CCL is the Clozure Common Lisp implementation. http://www.cliki.net/ccl 20:20:59 ezakimak: no, it's clozure. 20:21:12 ah. yay. language name puns 20:22:14 stassats: thanks a million. 20:22:15 -!- Joreji [~thomas@65-211.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:22:15 oh dear, it's about threading. 20:22:21 so does sbcl do threading differently? 20:22:24 minion: thanks! 20:22:25 np 20:22:43 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:23:14 ezakimak: no, it does cross-threads streams differently. Pretty much :external. 20:23:34 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:41 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 20:23:42 i grepped the sources and there's exactly one call that does this--only one place to fix 20:23:59 is there a simple translation from ccl's :sharing :lock to sbcl's method for the same semantics? 20:24:10 add a lock? 20:24:33 not so simple.. 20:24:47 ezakimak: does that code really use threads? 20:24:58 it's for weblocks in hutchentoot 20:25:02 so, i'd say yes 20:25:38 ah, this isn't langutils anymore? 20:25:55 nope. changing from :ascii to :latin-1 fixed it 20:26:01 thankyou for that, btw 20:30:33 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:31:51 :sharing :lock seems broken though. The documentation says it's protected with a regular read-write lock, but concurrent readers on a stream can't be good. 20:33:29 don't write locks preclude readers? 20:33:29 oh. nm. 20:33:32 i'll just nop the function--it's only for some logging anyways. 20:34:11 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 20:36:38 that seems to have worked. awesome. 20:41:23 -!- vervic [~vervic@88.116.134.106] has quit [Quit: vervic] 20:41:59 vervic [~vervic@88.116.134.106] has joined #lisp 20:41:59 -!- vervic [~vervic@88.116.134.106] has quit [Client Quit] 20:42:18 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d142-179-78-231.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 20:42:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:43:34 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-147-204-34.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44:35 antonv [~user@93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp 20:49:05 -- 20:50:07 -!- pspace [~andrew@c-24-5-81-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:54:44 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:58:42 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:56 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 21:02:07 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:05:05 dnm: ping 21:05:55 -!- azrael_ [~azraelgot@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 21:06:39 -!- LISP-newbie [44c6d910@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.198.217.16] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:13:59 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:16:55 What's an efficient way to make an array of known fixed contents other than (make-array 4 :initial-contents (list a b c d)) ? 21:17:33 (make-array 4 :initial-contents '(a b c d)) 21:17:56 I assume it'd have to be (:initial-contents `(,a ,b ,c ,d)) 21:17:59 (list a b c d) is not fixed 21:18:14 neither is `(,a ,b ,c ,d) 21:18:19 I guess I'm after if there's a way to make the array and populate it without building a list. 21:18:27 New it up then look over it setting it after the fact? 21:18:34 loop 21:18:38 clhs replace 21:18:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_replac.htm 21:19:21 (vector a b c d) 21:19:33 if that's what you meant 21:19:42 Ah yes, that seems the ticket 21:20:19 For ultimate performance, would building an array and filling it post-creation outrun that? 21:20:48 why do you care so much about performance? 21:21:10 if you want performance, create the vector only once 21:21:16 General knowledge, and technically I'm translating some functional/immutable rbtree code so it technically applies to every node. 21:21:35 you'd need to measure it 21:21:36 vector also needs to build a list (&rest) and to count the elements before allocating the array. 21:22:03 pjb: it doesn't need to build a list, and it can count at compile-time 21:22:20 (let ((v (make-array 4))) (setf (aref v 0) a (aref v 1) b (aref v 2) c (aref v 3) d) v) is th ebest. 21:25:12 pjb: produces very similar code on sbcl 21:26:36 pjb: and has the same performance 21:27:58 Modius: SBCL will detect simple :initial-content lists and fill the array in-place without consing any list. 21:28:00 and (vector a b c d) is slightly faster on CCL 21:28:07 timor101 [~icke@port-92-195-65-126.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:28:09 case closed 21:31:17 -!- timor [~icke@port-92-195-105-29.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:38:59 Modius: you can try (map-into (make-array 20) (lambda () ...returns next result ...)) 21:38:59 21:39:04 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:06 but I don't know how efficiently this will compile into 21:39:23 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:39:37 maxm-: pretty well. 21:39:43 call FFI, fill bytes from C ;) 21:40:05 Phoodus: C call overhead would kill it 21:40:37 I know 21:41:05 ie (let ((cnt 0)) (map-into (make-array 20) (lambda () (incf cnt)))) seems to work.. (half afraid someone will say blah blah CLHS does not allow doing side-effects from passed function) 21:41:21 what? 21:41:39 Guthur [~user@host86-147-204-34.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:56 stassats`: what I said.. 21:42:23 Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host223-230-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:42:24 well, how did you come up with it? 21:43:11 of course it allows side effects 21:43:20 stassats`: based on prior experience, half the time I'm doing something clever, it ends up using undefined behavior or disallowed by CLHS 21:43:46 well in this case there's no problem :-) 21:44:36 but you probably want to declare the type of cnt to something like (mod #.m-p-f) if you're interested in performance. 21:46:32 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 21:53:35 isson [isson@114.108.101.144] has joined #lisp 21:54:10 -!- ngz [~user@103.69.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:55:58 can I push changes in my local quicklisp sources back? or do I have to email them as patches? 21:56:20 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c097c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:56:50 -!- graspee [~graspee@02dd1c10.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: rebooting to linux] 21:56:51 not quicklisp--but stuff managed by quicklisp 21:57:43 push where? 21:57:58 upstream 21:58:00 ezakimak: sources downloaded by quicklisp aren't version controlled. 21:58:20 then why are they all yyyymmdd-git? or is that snapshots? 21:58:33 ezakimak: right, they're snapshot. 21:58:34 because they are taken from git 21:58:49 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c097c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:52 ezakimak: generally you just cd ~/quicklisp/local-projects ; git clone whatever; then it will start loading it from there... 21:59:00 why not just bundle the .git dir with it so it's a clone? 21:59:08 on very recent CCL/SBCL it will even follow symlinks 21:59:24 well, i already edited the stuff directly under dists 21:59:31 ezakimak: why bother? and .git takes a gazillion of space 21:59:40 i thought it was compact 21:59:59 ezakimak: if you want to push changes, you'll want them to be wrt HEAD anyway. 22:00:06 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c097c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:00:11 well, is there at least a way to store the .git sha1 w/the snapshot? cause a timestamp is insufficient 22:00:32 what for? 22:00:34 guess patches should work though 22:00:44 well, cause then you could clone the exact snapshot to make the diff from 22:00:49 quicklisp does not maintain the libs, authors do 22:00:54 or just plop the changes right on top 22:00:59 ezakimak: nobody would accept such a patch 22:01:08 you need to find the author and original git repo, and then submit bug report or pull request 22:01:15 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c097c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:19 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:01:19 not mentioning that it could be already fixed in the latest git version 22:01:23 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c097c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:44 imho for a trivial change like change :ascii to latin-1 just opening issue on github will be enough 22:02:07 ok. i have one more small fix also 22:02:16 a one-liner in flexml.lisp 22:02:18 i would prefer a pull request with a good commit message 22:02:34 i can't give a pull request w/o a repo... 22:02:35 -!- ludston [~patience@CPE-121-216-33-118.lnse1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:56 i don't understand your concerns 22:02:57 failure to communicate here 22:03:02 guess i could clone it and see if head still needs the fix 22:03:13 -!- Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host223-230-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:17 that should've been the first step 22:03:23 *ezakimak* is slow atm--been up too long 22:03:48 ezakimak: goto github.com, target project, click fork, go to ~/quicklisp/local-projects, do git clone of your fork, commit a fix, go back to github.com and submit a pull request 22:04:22 or, just file a one-liner-edit bug report :) 22:04:32 well yes that works too 22:04:47 it's easier just to apply a pull request 22:05:51 having some metadata to tell which revision QL pulled in could be useful though 22:06:20 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: .] 22:07:24 i thought i suggested that :) 22:07:35 ezakimak: indeed, and I concur. 22:07:43 Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host223-230-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:07:43 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@177.103.136.6] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:07:57 probably only needs a single url (repo + sha1) 22:08:05 ezakimak: you assume git. 22:08:10 true 22:08:36 cvs would need a repo + tag 22:08:44 (does anyone use cvs anymore??) 22:09:01 god help them. 22:09:19 ezakimak: I vaguely remember that Xach had a reason for not wanting the sources to be version controlled. I wouldn't want to support forking of QL-controlled sources because it makes replicating bug reports harder. 22:09:45 ezakimak: you're still missing darcs, hg, ... 22:09:50 and svn 22:10:12 and fossil 22:10:39 clbuild pulled nearly from repositories. We had to install all sorts of VCS, and next to no one actually used the freedom to develop locally. 22:10:58 *clbuild pulled nearly everything from repos 22:13:54 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@p9225-ipngn100206daianjibetu.nara.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:14:32 having to install all vcs is not the problem, the problem is newer versions of libraries breaking things and repositories coming off-line 22:14:58 stassats`: that wouldn't be an issue with QL's centralised model. 22:15:14 well, you could always make it flexible--pull from vcs or snapshot depending on availability 22:15:44 ezakimak: thus losing the very point of quicklisp: providing a set of libraries that work together. 22:15:45 known-stable vs track dev 22:16:06 portage does that model--it works very well 22:16:38 Are you volunteering to help suport users who now have a combinatorially larger set of configurations? ;) 22:16:56 and making it work in the first place 22:17:10 minion: clbuild2 22:17:12 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``clbuild2''. 22:17:52 -!- isson [isson@114.108.101.144] has left #lisp 22:18:08 no, you only support stable--dev is dev--you know you might have problems but you have to switch to dev on purpose to get it 22:18:45 but then things like today would be easy--i fixed two bugs in two packages, I could flip to dev, patch there and push, then wait till stable picks it up and move back 22:18:51 ezakimak: that's local-projects. 22:19:11 true, just a different workflow, and different set of tools to do it 22:19:17 well, there's crossover 22:19:22 see clbuild2 22:23:30 sellout [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 22:24:03 ezakimak: well, the first step is to see if Xach would be open to tracking the upstream source for each system. After that, checking a copy out in local-projects is just a small program. 22:24:47 well, i won't bug him now, he's likely busy on the new release 22:33:50 -!- timor101 [~icke@port-92-195-65-126.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:38:15 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:14 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.2.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:44:34 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:45:14 naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-167-77.w83-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:45:14 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 22:45:17 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-147-204-34.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:27 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.94.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:48:29 -!- arrsim [~user@ppp118-209-64-7.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:54 arrsim [~user@ppp118-209-64-7.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:14 VieiraN [~VieiraN@187.57.79.42] has joined #lisp 22:54:44 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-hudd6-0-0-cust741.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:58:15 -!- kilon [~kilon@188.4.91.0.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:16 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:01:46 Are there any conventions lispers use for something (like) assert that's used in debug but not release builds? 23:02:33 -!- Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host223-230-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:57 you could create a macro that checks a global set by inspecting the environment (dev/production) 23:07:24 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-11-139.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:07:36 I'd go with "dear god, no, I WANT to know if something goes wrong in production." 23:07:52 tensorpudding_ [~michael@108.87.22.207] has joined #lisp 23:09:24 good point. 23:09:34 esp. since you can fix it on the fly 23:10:06 rgc [~user@51.Red-79-152-226.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:13 For that matter, I expect that within the next couple of weeks, I'll be rewriting my error logging to suppress the nasty logging for certain broad classes of error, and then writing a monitor agent to send me email whenever anything happens to cause a full backtrace log to occur. 23:11:50 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.193.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:15:56 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:16:47 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:20:35 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:45 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:22:16 vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-159-245.dsl.sil.at] has joined #lisp 23:23:30 The TC Lispers (Twin Cities Lisp Users Group) is looking to adopt a library. 23:23:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-13.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 23:23:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-13.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 23:23:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 23:24:02 We're looking for a reasonably sized, reasonably useful library... 23:24:29 patrickwonders: have you applied for the screening process? 23:24:36 With outstanding bugs but not actively maintained. 23:24:48 The screening process? 23:25:03 to determine if you're fit for adoption 23:25:07 indeed, stassats`, we can't give little lisp children to anybody 23:25:38 Ah, yes. We had our homes inpect by CPS (code protective services). 23:25:41 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:26:08 We scored Lambda's across tge board. 23:26:08 Do you have any parameters for "reasonably sized" and "reasonably useful"? 23:26:23 nyef: thinking of mcclim ? 23:26:26 :D 23:26:33 areneida! /me seeks cover 23:26:41 ara 23:26:46 shi 23:26:51 No. Just something slightly more in use than Garnet maybe, and not too much bigger. 23:27:03 pnq [~nick@ACA2A232.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:27:24 It's our first adoption, so not-a-holy-terror would be good. 23:27:37 mcclim sounds like a nice candidate 23:27:50 fe[nl]ix: No, definitely not thinking of McCLIM. It doesn't need a maintainer, it needs putting out of its misery. d-: 23:28:10 patrickwonders: most useful libraries I know already have at least one developer 23:28:24 nyef: but there are still programs using mcclim! 23:28:26 And, yeah, araneida would be a bad choice as well, considering what tends to happen to people who take up its maintainership. 23:28:37 *maxm-* would vote iterate 23:28:47 the last one I found a bit abandoned, I took it myself(fiveam) 23:28:56 maxm-: We are looking at iterate. 23:29:18 One of our members was a major iterate contributor in the past. 23:29:43 if I had time, I would personally reboot iterate, in a lot more CLOTHy way 23:29:49 err CLOSy 23:29:54 How about CMUCL? It's reasonably large, reasonably useful, and has very few, if any, remaining maintainers. 23:30:03 patrickwonders: but there are many with exactly one developer 23:30:05 fe[nl]ix: I know most are claimed. We wouldn't want to offend. 23:30:30 rathen then (define-clause) stuff have a well thought out set of generic functions... Also allow specifying :collect and such keywords 23:30:39 CMUCL is probably way bigger than we're ready for as a first child. 23:30:48 nyef: cmucl has rtoym 23:31:08 *maxm-* is still wishing for multi-value return by default, ie (finding (values x y z) maximizing (3d-function x y z)) 23:31:12 patrickwonders: you won't offend if you just send patches 23:31:21 stassats`: And is rtoym describable as anything more numerous than "very few"? 23:31:35 although i fail to see utility in cmucl 23:31:43 nyef: but not by "if any" 23:31:47 manahino [~manahino@softbank126108006128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:20 fe[nl]ix: I think that may depend on the frequency of the patches (for some maintainers) 23:32:26 Another option would be to look for a non-existent library that you believe should exist, and just write it from scratch. 23:32:38 i usually use cmucl to check "does this SBCL bug have gray hair or not" 23:32:52 Basically, find a hole in the lisp library ecosystem and try to fill it. 23:33:10 nyef: Yes, pondering that, too. 23:33:17 patrickwonders: in other words, taking full control is not the only way to take care 23:33:22 Is CMUCL old enough to vote yet? 23:33:33 it surely is 23:33:35 just lower the voting age 23:33:41 and send it to battle 23:33:51 also what about the object-store stuff? what was it elephant? 23:34:00 oh--how about rucksack? 23:34:05 *maxm-* never tried it, but I understand it it kind of failed to leave the runway or something like that 23:34:17 drewc is/was rucksacking some 23:34:19 i was going to take a look at it in the near future 23:35:21 -!- manahino [~manahino@softbank126108006128.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:53 CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:30 -!- kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:36:42 Hrm. Most of my independent project ideas are either horribly niche, have a huge scope, can have a working prototype hacked together in an afternoon, or some combination. 23:37:07 nyef: Likewise. ;) 23:37:08 kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 23:37:21 Database migrations for postmodern? That's a niche afternoon project. 23:39:32 Bindings for doing user-mode USB device drivers from Lisp? That's REALLY niche. 23:39:43 One other area we've talked about is providing extensive documentation to some under-documented lib. 23:39:47 (Sample code available, search for lh-usb.) 23:40:37 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 23:40:53 Or how about bindings for linux user-mode input devices? Again, niche, and probably good for a couple of days to work up a prototype at worst. 23:40:55 nyef: I want to write a whole OS. :) Niche and huge scope. But with VMs, never been easier to get going. 23:42:05 i want to write an OS on top of Linux 23:42:08 Heh. 23:42:11 little less scope 23:43:30 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-18-66.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:43:32 Linux Kernel extensions for Lisp-optimized memory patterns would be nice. 23:43:46 IMHO a missing thing would be to 1. Setup a CL docstrings recomended standard for very light markdown like markup..Lighter then markup, similar to the standard used by Elisp. 2. Write a parser for such markup, that parses docstring, and makes a tree of objects such as paragraph/list/definition-list,reference (to symbol) 23:44:02 Heck, if you want OS-type projects, have you seen beach and my OS project pages? 23:44:15 how about add graphviz output of class heirarchies to one of the doctools generators? 23:44:26 just like oxygen does 23:44:28 for point 1. starting point would be to look into docstrings of several widely used libraries, document what formatting seems to be prelevant, and make examples of each type 23:44:47 nyef: Nope... will look. Don't know about the group, but I'm interested. 23:44:49 then have a voting as to which one seems to be most understandable 23:45:26 http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-os/project-map/ is mine, beach's appears to have gone missing. 23:45:54 patrickwonders: "extensive documentation to some under-documented lib." ? 23:45:57 ezakimak: Nice idea. Someone was just asking on sbcl-help today about call graphs, too. 23:46:07 He was approaching it top-down, from the applications, I was approaching it bottom-up, from the lisp and host OS implementation. 23:46:08 iolib ^_^ 23:46:30 ezakimak: the problem is that only standard is using FOOBAR for symbols references instead of elisp's `foobar' 23:46:45 how about a visual callgraph that can accept profiler data and color code it? 23:46:49 patrickwonders: you might want to have a look at my project, DOCBROWSER. 23:46:50 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:46:59 patrickwonders: it somewhat overlaps what you want to do 23:47:00 but everyone does definition-list (ie list of each arg and the description) or plain lists, or even code snippets (ie synopsis) differently 23:47:03 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:47:20 for example some do example snippets in upper case too, some in lower case, some indent by space some don't etc 23:47:30 One of my recurring projects is to try and figure out the CLIM II spec sufficient to write a GUI framework with a similar ethos, but more up-to-date with respect to interaction patterns and less insanity. 23:47:34 fe[nl]ix: I agree on iolib. One of our members wrote a great tutorial on it, but I still feel it leaves lots of iolib uncovered. 23:47:52 http://code.google.com/p/docbrowser/ 23:48:00 patrickwonders: psilord is wout you ? 23:48:04 *with 23:48:37 *maxm-* noticed some project had whatever.clhsdoc files, with lisp-like formatting, but it looks too much like html for my taste 23:48:57 fe[nl]ix: Yep. He just got a job with SIFT a few months ago. 23:49:18 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:49:57 how about find projects that are missing from cliki, and/or update cliki data? 23:50:12 fe[nl]ix: If I hadn't whined about IOLib docs in his presence, I'd not have known of his tutorial. :) 23:50:45 hahaha 23:51:22 taking over existing projects seems to be a hard job.. I thought there would be absolutely no contriversy with taking over :log4cl name, since original was basically unfinished/abandoned for 6+ years, but I was shitted on by pretty much everyone here, and Xach initially refused to include it 23:52:38 maxm-: did you start from the old code base and with the author's benediction ? 23:52:58 fe[nl]ix: no I could not contact the author, but Xach had his new email.. 23:53:12 he was ok with it, so Xach relented then 23:53:39 maxm-: I think CLWS might be in a similar boat now, too. The Quicklisp version is the original that is two+ years old. The 3b fork is active and way improved. I'm lobbying xach to switch. 23:54:13 maxm-: that's not taking over 23:54:36 well I fail to see a difference, original was pretty much unusable 23:54:41 how about simply getting more packages into quicklisp? the more comprehensive it is the better, no? 23:54:50 it was like 1 week project that author abandoned 23:55:03 patrickwonders_ [~patrickwo@mobile-166-147-099-115.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:37 you only took over the name, not the project 23:55:43 Thanks for the ideas, folks. 23:55:54 I gotta run. 23:55:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:56:00 anyway, not going to revesit this, reason I brought it up, it was someone suggested going to Cliki and try to find old/dead projects, so I just related my expirience with it 23:56:06 -!- patrickwonders_ [~patrickwo@mobile-166-147-099-115.mycingular.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:56:28 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:56:57 i have no experience of taking over, only joining projects, and in all occasions i was asked to join them 23:57:05 so, i didn't find it any hard 23:57:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 23:59:50 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp