00:03:24 -!- ledai [~lda@205.Red-88-18-194.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:05:09 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:05:41 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.32.61.251] has joined #lisp 00:06:11 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-rzyjrvcbveggdypy] has joined #lisp 00:06:42 IPmonger [~ipmonger@165.123.243.248] has joined #lisp 00:09:55 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.102.71.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:10:15 prip [~foo@host117-121-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:10:25 hiyosi [~hiyosi@102.124.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 00:10:40 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:11:35 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:25 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@204.9.220.45] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 00:15:01 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-098-024-165-246.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:35 -!- tensorpudding_ is now known as tensorpudding 00:16:47 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.164] has joined #lisp 00:17:44 -!- Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.6.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:17:55 OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 00:19:18 Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.7.122] has joined #lisp 00:22:20 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.185] has joined #lisp 00:25:05 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:53 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:27:01 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:29:57 stickycake [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has joined #lisp 00:29:57 RomyRomy [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has joined #lisp 00:30:18 okay! so I've found why genera will not run with a current X server 00:30:28 bug in the X server it seems. 00:31:13 MassRoute [~MassRoute@mail.inthekoots.com] has joined #lisp 00:31:14 SELL CC US,UK,AU | SMTP, MAILER, RDP, PHP SHELL, C99, R57 | 00:31:30 -!- MassRoute [~MassRoute@mail.inthekoots.com] has quit [Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 00:34:07 weirdly, I got Genera started with a date in 2012. isn't that supposed to be impossible? 00:34:25 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:36:00 pmetzger: Genera didn't have Y2K problem iirc, it was the the time keeping chip 00:36:32 well, there was some claim that the VLM wouldn't come up with a date after Jan 2000 00:36:35 pmetzger: for optimum chances for running, use some old distro with X.Org 6.x 00:36:37 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@188-143-58-245.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:36:44 No need any more. 00:36:45 -!- Vivitron` [~user@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:36:45 snap4 didn't have that problem 00:36:56 I'm debugging the flaw in the xserver source with the author 00:37:13 there is a bug in dix/inpututils.c which was rewritten in 2008 00:37:45 pmetzger: there's another problem you won't be able to fix with X.Org 00:37:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-58-245.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 00:37:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-58-245.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 00:37:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 00:37:54 are you sure? 00:37:59 (and what is the flaw?) 00:38:05 you might be able to fix it in snap4... if you decompile it 00:38:18 pmetzger: it's a hairy issue caused by new xlib which uses xcb 00:38:33 imagine what would it be if you put your energy in something worthwile 00:38:34 I'm up to my eyeballs in X code right now. I'm clearly not afraid of hair. 00:38:56 kanru` [~user@199.195.142.182] has joined #lisp 00:39:13 stassats`: Imagine if everyone enjoyed doing the same thing? the world would be a boring place. 00:39:27 same thing? 00:39:41 p_l: anyway, what's the issue? 00:40:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:40:45 You can also use an old Xnest. 00:40:56 pmetzger: I haven't debugged it fully, but certain behaviours which are alright with classic xlib were omitted with xcb 00:41:18 that's probably a protocol issue like the one I'm dealing with now. 00:41:35 pmetzger: no, it was xlib internals 00:41:40 I now have a full debugging X server running under gdb. when I hit it, I'll fix it with the x.org people... 00:41:47 you sure it is xlib internals? I can fix that too. 00:41:54 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 00:41:54 -!- stickycake [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has quit [Quit: stickycake] 00:42:03 pretty sure, cause using classic xlib fixed it 00:42:15 without changing the server 00:42:24 so I could simply run genera with the classic xlib. 00:42:28 bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 00:42:28 that would be easy enough. 00:43:09 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:43:21 the fact that the C source to the new x86_64 genera isn't available on some samizdat server is a bit weird given that the whole rest of it is... 00:43:33 i don't feel like this is on topic 00:43:53 stassats`: tell me more about your feelings, says eliza. 00:44:31 you can take your discussion to #x11 or whatever it's called 00:44:55 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:46:24 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:46:31 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:57 stassats`: come on, it's at least an interesting discussion of software archeaology 00:47:17 better than doing folks' homework... 00:48:01 RomyRomy [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has joined #lisp 00:48:01 stickycake [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has joined #lisp 00:48:12 slyrus__: if it were about lisp, and not about some intricacies of Xlib 00:48:49 xlib was developed in lisp originally. 00:48:55 X, I mean. 00:49:05 pmetzger: That's because VLM was afaik never written in C - snap4 was generated into C by modifying original compiler (which would output alpha assembly). The official x86_64 and ppc64 VLM never got released outside of a handful of people 00:49:09 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has quit [Client Quit] 00:49:09 -!- stickycake [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has quit [Client Quit] 00:49:10 we ignore the issue of graphical display in various lisps to much as it is. i find this exercise intriguing. 00:49:59 many thins are intriguing 00:50:02 IIRC, the way this was done (according to the README) was to change the assembler (in Lisp) to put out C code instead of Alpha assembler. 00:50:23 which means a C code file probably is out there somewhere. 00:50:46 pmetzger: yes, on the harddrive of the guy who made the modified assembler 00:50:46 And yah, I understand that the x86_64 version was never released. The IP issues here are particularly intriguing given what I know. 00:50:56 p_l: yes. :) 00:51:27 the odds that anyone could successfully sue him for releasing it are essentially zero. no one can prove they own Genera at this point based on my research of a couple of years ago. 00:51:37 but that's a long story and right now I just want to make this work. :) 00:51:38 sbcl, while very topical, has its own channel, because most people don't care for its internals 00:52:01 *magnificrab* sees genera discussion and wakes up 00:52:12 pmetzger: afaik, both ppc64 and x86-64 versions might have been stopped by simple lack of commercial viability - there were *official* ports, to OSX, but outside of few screenshots from alpha testers I found nothing 00:52:13 a magnificrab indeed! 00:52:26 "official" in what sense? 00:52:36 Andrew Topping never legally owned Genera based on my research. 00:52:37 pmetzger: by Symbolics 00:52:45 stassats`: I that it was because we didn't want our internals discussions polluted with everything else, not the other way around :) 00:52:47 Symbolics ceased to exist many many years ago. 00:52:48 s/that/thought/ 00:52:56 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 00:53:18 slyrus__: it's both 00:53:21 pmetzger: original symbolics ceased - there's a company that inherited the assets 00:53:24 There is a DBA that DS still has with which he sells old hardware and "licenses" 00:53:39 p_l: no there isn't. I researched this for weeks. Andrew Topping never paid ABN Amro for the assets. 00:53:51 pmetzger: i wanted to say something witty here in response, but it appears most of GEB has been largely pushed from my working memory. Time for a re-read 00:54:05 But DS's claim to be able to sell licenses comes from the fact that Andrew Topping made a deal with him... 00:54:28 well, since there's no chance to see a discussion about actual lisp, i can just solve it easily 00:54:30 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has left #lisp 00:54:37 http://www.symbolics-dks.com/ <--- those guys 00:54:42 Topping was, so far as I can tell, a professional con man. He was also a murderer and a rapist. No, I'm not joking. The NYPD never proved he murdered his wife so he wasn't charged, but he did spend time in prison for other crimes... 00:54:58 yes, I know. "DKS". 00:55:25 He was not the person who claimed to purchase the IP. He was the last salesman Symbolics had and he bought up the old parts inventory when they folded. 00:55:40 The IP was "bought" by Andrew Topping but he never paid for it, or paid his lawyers. 00:55:46 heh 00:55:51 or paid to transfer the company. 00:56:12 He never transferred the copyrights or trademarks properly with the US copyright office or PTO. 00:56:13 I think in 2~3 years the copyright might pass anyway 00:56:23 no, copyright in the US is now 90 years. 00:56:28 sick, isn't it? 00:56:45 pmetzger: fortunately, US copyright term isn't recognized internationally 00:57:09 Anyway, the last owner of record of the copyrights and trademarks was a Delaware company that ceased to exist in the late 1990s for lack of anyone paying the annual fees to the state of Delaware. 00:57:26 Topping neither perfected his interest in that corporation nor transferred any copyrights or trademarks. 00:57:38 and he never paid the bankruptcy people for the assets, though he claimed he owned them. 00:57:53 but off that topic. 00:58:20 I have an X server to debug.... 00:58:49 heh 00:59:33 sounds like the right way to find the owner is to infringe and see who sues 01:00:12 many people could try to sue, but no one could succeed in court in showing they have title to the IP. 01:01:14 in fact, anyone could, in theory, try to sue anyone at any time. :) 01:01:59 exactly. infringing sounds like a low-risk activity in this cse. 01:02:01 case. 01:02:14 in more sensible times, the copyright protection could be lifted through that 01:02:17 the Macsyma trademarks are also gone btw. Expired many years ago without renewal. As are the Macsyma copyrights de facto. 01:02:29 "low risk" probably doesn't summarize it. 01:02:37 "nearly zero risk" :) 01:03:20 pmetzger: epsilon risk ;) 01:03:23 Topping was quite a character. I spoke to him once by phone before his death. 01:03:57 The heart assist machine keeping him alive was quite audible. He apparently never paid Mass. general hospital for that or for his treatment. He was quite good at not paying people large bills. 01:04:15 unfortunately, I suspect the actual materials from symbolics might be lost 01:04:27 including developement stuff 01:04:43 what do you mean? the source code? 01:04:59 all of that is in the opengenera image that's on bittorrent. 01:05:23 pmetzger: hmm... I couldn't find some of the code - most was in fasls 01:05:36 the code is in a tape image in the tarball. 01:05:43 ahhh 01:05:46 the tape is in symbolics format. 01:05:49 nice 01:06:00 pmetzger: so, I have to mount the tape from Genera over NFS? :) 01:06:19 in theory you need a lisp machine to read it, but I have it mostly deciphered and once I have my lispm up I intend to write a small C or Ruby program to unpack such tapes and release it. 01:06:31 p_l: in theory, if you want it right now. 01:06:50 I'm missing a virtualization-capable cpu to have it run at sensible speed 01:07:13 you are looking for OG2_SOURCE_DIST.TAPE;1 01:07:21 that's the file in the tarball with the sources. 01:07:49 you don't need a virtualization capable CPU to run the genera binary -- it isn't a virtual x86 after all. 01:08:24 pmetzger: yes, but it was the easiest way to avoid complicated setup 01:08:40 I loaded an old Ubuntu into VMware and ran VLM inside 01:08:45 ah, yes. 01:08:49 I'm doing something rather like that now. 01:08:51 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:09:38 https://www.dropbox.com/s/x3ngio8d5re2tb2/screen.PNG <--- some time ago :) 01:10:05 cool. :) 01:10:17 I have it booted now, but I need to GDB the live X server to make it come up. :) 01:10:20 not a good thing. 01:10:30 time to isolate the test case so I can patch it. 01:10:48 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 01:17:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 251 seconds] 01:20:25 springz_ [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 01:22:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-58-245.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 01:23:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-58-245.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 01:23:00 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 01:24:35 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@199.180.99.172] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24:54 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.94.171] has joined #lisp 01:31:32 -!- IPmonger [~ipmonger@165.123.243.248] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 01:33:34 gcv [~gcv@c-24-6-51-174.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:36 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.12.190] has joined #lisp 01:35:37 -!- robolobster54 [~robolobst@77.241.58.140] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:36:48 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.193.157.109] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:39:13 can someone tell me whats so super-cool about genera? 01:39:37 other then historical "wow".. Ie revolutionary for its time, but so was mozaic 01:40:11 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-098-024-165-246.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:40:17 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-098-024-165-246.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:40:31 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43:01 maxm-: For me, I like to have a good record of the past, especially things that were novel, interesting and haven't been matched since in some ways. For something like Genera, that means having the ability to run it and not just have screenshots and written docs. 01:43:33 maxm-: well, turtles all the way down, dynamic modification of the runtime, quite nice GUI system, etc. 01:44:06 but I can do all of that with my current CL? and "nice gui system" looks horrible by today standards.. Ie it looks about same as windows 1.0 01:44:27 does it have source level stepper? 01:44:31 simular to edebug? 01:45:02 iirc yes 01:45:21 the debug capabilities were very good 01:45:35 also, it was actually much better than windows 1.0 01:45:41 well, thats something.. How did they implement it, same way as SBCL, or codewalking instrumentation like edebug? 01:45:50 maxm-: "todays stadnards" would appear subjective 01:46:08 I don't care if it is useful. :) 01:46:08 i personally wish my workstation functioned like genera 01:46:13 no idea, but there was full access to all components so tracing microcode was possible 01:46:17 But I think it would be useful. 01:46:21 oh cmon, you can't tell me you find gui in that screenshot appealing..I'm all for minimalism, I run stumpwm 01:46:22 it's pretty close to it with xmonad 01:46:44 maxm-: I find that gui appealing. 01:46:48 maxm-: some of tht comes from the 1bit displays of old 01:46:54 ok, guess tastes differ 01:46:59 -!- gcv [~gcv@c-24-6-51-174.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gcv] 01:47:03 from my point if view, it is just a bloody shame that a historical artifact of such interest is unavailable to study. 01:47:04 disclaimer: I also still run a VAX daily. 01:47:28 magnificrab: I know others who do too. Personally, I prefer emulators. :) 01:47:33 personally, I'd like to resurrect *some* parts of Genera, namely its GUI *model* 01:47:42 pmetzger: i have a couple of simh's running as well 01:47:44 what was cool about it? 01:47:49 -!- kanru` [~user@199.195.142.182] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:47:54 maxm-: you know CLIM? 01:47:59 simh ivory would be interesting. :) 01:48:00 but the idea of having an mv3100 collecting dust is not a nice one 01:48:00 with presentations etc? 01:48:16 maxm-: it was heavily based on LispM's, including Genera 01:48:24 p_l: I know about clim, but afraid i'll horrible insult someone if i voice what i really think of it :-) 01:48:30 magnificrab: OTOH, running the physical hardware makes it possible that it will die sooner. 01:48:32 pmetzger: i need to get tru64 licenses for my alphaserver so i can load up genera on it. 01:48:55 pmetzger: it was still in its original box until about 2 years ago :) 01:49:04 we found 2 of them in a warehouse. 01:49:08 magnificrab: you can load it on any x86_64 linux box it seems, though I suspect based on your stated tastes you want real iron. :) 01:49:16 *p_l* has emulated PDP-10 (TOPS-20), VAX (VMS), Alpha (VMS), S/370 (MVS) and z10 (z/OS) 01:49:27 commonqt seems quite a nice API for me, and once you get CommonQt up and running, its absolutely a pleasure to work with 01:49:33 err "qt api" I meant 01:49:42 pmetzger: yeah, i have an ubuntu vm for that 01:49:44 I'd really like to see a simh symbolics machine. that would be cool. 01:49:45 its not the same 01:49:46 maxm-: Qt is IMHO lower level than the bits I want to resurrect 01:50:07 p_l: no ITS? 01:50:22 magnificrab: currently not installed, was my first 36bit 01:50:29 well you can build on it, I had build up MVC framework on top it, with full deep copying of arbitrary CLOS objects, and reset/undo 01:50:54 magnificrab: btw, you can get Tru64 licenses for free, though sometimes it takes some mails 01:50:56 p_l: last time i tried to load it up, my salvager tape appears to have suffered some rot 01:51:02 but Qt GraphicsView framework is a work of art 01:51:06 p_l: really? where? 01:51:09 its absolutely stunning what that thing could do 01:51:22 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.102.67.204] has joined #lisp 01:51:29 maxm-: I was thinking of resurrecting various things related to listener-style environment, while still exporting all power of, let's say, Qt 01:51:37 p_l: it would appear that the thing that makes genera hang on dumping is the same X error I'm fixing now. 01:51:46 *maxm-* is not sure what "listener style environment" means 01:51:47 magnificrab: you need to bother someone at HP, afaik 01:51:56 could you give example as in "it allows me to do x,y,z" 01:52:07 p_l: makes sense. If only i knew someone at HP 01:52:15 used to have David Hawley's email address 01:52:21 I know people who certainly have copies of Tru64. 01:52:30 but I don't know if they have licenses. 01:52:35 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.61.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:52:37 that is, extras 01:52:48 pmetzger: I've considered starting a project to write a symbolics emulator to hook into simh, but i've never had time 01:52:48 IIRC, it used to be that every CPU got a free license. 01:53:02 but I don't remember if that was true or not. my Alpha memories are fading. 01:53:10 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:53:17 maxm-: Building *quickly* simple interfaces out of very simple things like "display " where is automatically formatted properly and can be interacted with, and the same for input (presentations) 01:53:27 pmetzger: base OS license still works 01:53:41 might need a X11 license, though 01:53:57 p_l: where is basically arbitrary object? 01:54:01 anyone here a gdb guru btw? 01:54:27 isn't that what slime inspector does (its kind of limited by only having 1 instance of it available at a time, but otherwise) 01:54:36 maxm-: yes. An arbitrary object for which you can define presentations 01:54:53 maxm-: slime is kind-of inspired by it 01:55:17 francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176433200.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:55:49 well honestly its nothing too evulationary.. Turbo pascal 5.x had it, and any debugger in existence basically 01:55:57 too revolutionary I mean 01:57:09 allowing objects define their own presentation I guess is a nice thing, but for example Java IDE's have limited ability to do it too, by calling obj.toString() 01:57:41 maxm-: except that instead "toString" or using a debugger, it's a standard interface construct which you can copy/paste etc. 01:58:08 anyway, sorry I just wanted to know whats the buzz is about, no insult intended to you software archeologists 01:58:15 none taken 01:58:49 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:52 -!- TimKack [~user@c-2ec20125-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:58:54 *Ralith* wishes debuggers other than SLIME had SLIME's relevant features 01:59:17 what's the syntax in gdb to print out all the values in an array? 01:59:22 I'm tired and my memory is poor. 01:59:25 well unless you mean stepping and display all the local variables :-) 01:59:45 I have a pointer to an array of N values and I want to extract all of them. 02:00:06 *maxm-* got close to displaying all local variables and normal stepping by doing declaim notinline for all symbols in CL package, but it broke in subtle ways on non-trivial functins 02:00:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:01:13 i'm rather new to SLIME. what's the syntax for inspector? 02:01:49 pmetzger: do you know the length? 02:02:15 yes. 02:02:29 magnificrab: I usually do C-c I on the object, or middle-click->inspect 02:02:44 I think I probably want p/x (KeyCode[168])modkeymap -- I'll see if that works. 02:02:48 -!- springz_ [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Quit: change client] 02:02:53 pmetzger: print array@10 -> 10 entries printed 02:03:04 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 02:03:10 pmetzger: print array[x]@y print y entries starting at x 02:03:46 *maxm-* is surprised (inspect obj) shows default text inspector and not slime one 02:04:03 maxm-: thanks. That's quite useful 02:07:13 OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 02:11:32 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:45 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 02:19:40 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has left #lisp 02:22:19 okay, test case for the X bug isolated, and about to be sent to the owner. :) 02:23:52 wizdom [~wisdom@c-68-37-216-107.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:20 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25:23 -!- wizdom [~wisdom@c-68-37-216-107.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:25:42 wizdom [~wisdom@c-68-37-216-107.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:24 -!- wizdom [~wisdom@c-68-37-216-107.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:36:56 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:22 wizdom [~wisdom@c-68-37-216-107.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:50 manahino [~manahino@softbank126108006128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:57 -!- booyaa` [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:44:44 robolobster54 [~robolobst@77.241.58.140] has joined #lisp 02:49:04 -!- kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-1-145-21.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:53:18 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-153-195.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 02:56:13 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2422D.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:57:24 -!- michael_alex [~michael@nat10-222.cs.ucdavis.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:58:44 gko [~gko@220.228.255.204] has joined #lisp 03:01:10 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 03:01:10 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-149-102.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:03:18 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:04:22 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-8.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:05 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@FLH9Aab022.nra.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:06:08 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:06:42 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 03:06:57 hello all 03:08:47 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:14:18 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:16:51 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.66.141] has joined #lisp 03:17:11 ynniv [~ynniv@c-76-23-252-81.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:13 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@c-76-23-252-81.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:21:51 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@177.103.136.5] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:21:55 peterhil` [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 03:22:03 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-153-195.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:22:12 holycow [~holycow@host-64-151-208-2.bchsia.in2net.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:43 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:46 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:35:56 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:36:35 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:55 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:41:28 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:42:41 BlankVerse [~pankajm@FLH9Aab022.nra.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 03:46:04 wolkefm [~wolkefm@129.137.181.108] has joined #lisp 03:47:38 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@201.53.12.75] has joined #lisp 03:50:47 -!- pmetzger [~pmetzger@166.84.161.166] has quit [] 03:51:49 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@201.53.12.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:52:00 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 03:58:02 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.94.171] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:58:22 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.92.72] has joined #lisp 04:01:11 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:02:34 pnq [~nick@ACA2422D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 04:03:51 -!- chenbing [~user@115.205.0.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:07:29 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2422D.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:12:04 teggi [~teggi@123.21.175.206] has joined #lisp 04:15:33 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176433200.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:16:44 francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176172191.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:17:41 Vivitron` [~user@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:56 -!- Vivitron` [~user@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 04:18:07 Vivitron` [~user@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:44 -!- wizdom [~wisdom@c-68-37-216-107.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:26:13 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:26:28 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:27:17 asvil [~asvil@178.121.94.18] has joined #lisp 04:30:47 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176172191.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 04:42:55 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.185] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:43:33 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:44:45 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 04:47:17 IPmonger [~ipmonger@c-68-84-210-68.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:27 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120420145725]] 04:51:39 kanru` [~user@199.195.142.182] has joined #lisp 04:51:40 francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176172191.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:55:05 Good morning. There is picture about CLOS methods calling. But I lost link. Anyone remember it? 04:57:32 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176172191.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:58:12 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 05:01:32 :arounds :befores initforms :afters then :arounds 05:01:36 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:01:51 (return to :around) 05:02:07 that what you meant? 05:02:14 mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-hudd6-0-0-cust741.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 05:04:23 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:08 alvis``` [~user@tx-184-6-180-2.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:16 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:06:39 borkman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:46 -!- alvis`` [~user@tx-184-6-180-2.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:06:46 -!- wyan [~wyan@fnords.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:06:47 mel0on` [~user@h-91-136.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 05:07:19 -!- borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:07:30 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:07:52 -!- mel0on [~user@h-91-136.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:07:52 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:08:11 wyan [~wyan@92.243.10.205] has joined #lisp 05:08:14 -!- gensym [~tg@85.158.178.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:08:30 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 05:08:48 gensym [~tg@85.158.178.76] has joined #lisp 05:10:21 -!- IPmonger [~ipmonger@c-68-84-210-68.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 05:11:02 wait a moment, I'll give you a link 05:11:25 https://www.dropbox.com/s/x56u0jela93amyq/clos1.jpg 05:12:27 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:12:45 kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@164-177-155-66.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:12:54 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-64-151-208-2.bchsia.in2net.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:14:44 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:15:39 can I have slime connect to an existing ccl image? it's running some script that's talking to stdout, can I get the output somehow? 05:16:31 dim: yesish/no 05:16:37 -!- kwmiebach__ [~kwmiebach@164-177-155-66.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:16:52 dim: you need to break into the debugger and start a swank server so that you can connect to the running process. 05:17:12 dim: the output is not buffered by default 05:17:36 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 05:18:08 Spion [~spion@77.28.255.53] has joined #lisp 05:18:21 -!- Spion [~spion@77.28.255.53] has quit [Changing host] 05:18:21 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 05:18:36 peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 05:18:41 I will have to look at that later, like 2h from now, if the script isn't over by then 05:19:08 if that is what you must do, that is what you must do 05:19:58 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 05:20:00 yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has joined #lisp 05:20:09 p_l: thanks 05:21:05 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:23:38 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:23:50 jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has joined #lisp 05:26:03 -!- jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has quit [Client Quit] 05:29:58 -!- Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:34:54 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 05:35:49 -!- shifty [~user@114-198-37-54.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:36:33 -!- dnolen` [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:38:00 snearch [~snearch@f053000081.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:38:35 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-124-200.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:56 H4ns: yeah, kids first 05:39:31 oh the ccl process is now gonw 05:40:40 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-140-51.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:46:08 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-124-200.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:48:34 -!- robolobster54 [~robolobst@77.241.58.140] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:52:43 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:53:20 alvis```` [~user@tx-184-6-180-2.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:04 -!- alvis``` [~user@tx-184-6-180-2.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:54:07 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:56:21 -!- superflit [~superflit@75-166-69-218.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: superflit] 05:57:09 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:57:38 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:58:41 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:00:29 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:02:00 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 06:02:39 -!- wolkefm [~wolkefm@129.137.181.108] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:05:13 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-rzyjrvcbveggdypy] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:06:04 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-153-195.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 06:09:12 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 06:09:12 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 06:09:12 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 06:09:36 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 06:09:47 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 06:10:13 Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:48 shifty [~user@114-198-37-54.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:14:08 Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 06:14:48 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has left #lisp 06:17:44 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.167.230] has joined #lisp 06:20:22 lebro [~Adium@ool-18bab4b8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:27 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@14-33-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:59 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:22:59 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:30 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:29:59 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 06:32:38 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 06:33:37 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:34:13 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-48-12.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:13 howeyc_ [~howeyc@2607:f2f8:a958::2] has joined #lisp 06:36:16 leku [~mjf@shell.dhp.com] has joined #lisp 06:36:27 anyone know if the loper-os guy comes in here? 06:36:31 Stanislav 06:36:39 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 06:36:41 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:36:44 hi 42 06:36:48 -!- ashish [lostcase@freebsd/developer/ashish] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:37:55 -!- otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:37:57 ashish [lostcase@freebsd/developer/ashish] has joined #lisp 06:38:08 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 06:38:11 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:38:19 -!- howeyc [~howeyc@2607:f2f8:a958::2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:38:33 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-115-142.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:41 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@14-33-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has left #lisp 06:39:51 -!- howeyc_ [~howeyc@2607:f2f8:a958::2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:41:13 howeyc [~howeyc@2607:f2f8:a958::2] has joined #lisp 06:42:27 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-cvasfuzgnvdongdr] has joined #lisp 06:42:30 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.167.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:43:16 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@120.154.185.178] has quit [Quit: Bye] 06:47:04 cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 06:47:30 robertbrook [~robertbro@87-194-221-198.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:47:57 -!- Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:48:30 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-153-208.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:16 any weblocks users here? 06:51:20 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-115-142.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:51:36 I've been putting off trying the loop macro in my lispy adventures... don't have that "solid grasp" feeling of it like I do with the other iteration constructs. is it optimal (even urgent) for me to learn it and start using it? 06:52:08 robot-beethoven: not necessarily 06:52:32 I have to admit that I like it, but I prefer mapping functions 06:52:59 p_l: I like the mapping functions too... any good way to use them on plists? 06:53:02 a good mini reference for loop is here: http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~shapiro/Courses/CSE202/Summer2004/ 06:53:26 section 22 06:54:44 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 06:55:19 robot-beethoven: no idea, I rarely used plists... one way would be to first change from plist to alist and have something along the lines of (mapcar (lambda (x) (let ((x1 (car x)) (x2 (cdr x))) )) (plist-to-alist plist)) 06:55:54 ezakimak: that looks like a nice, concise description, thanks! 06:57:16 -!- robertbrook [~robertbro@87-194-221-198.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: robertbrook] 06:58:58 dangling-pointer [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ccomendant] has joined #lisp 07:00:19 p_l: I think I prefer alists too. I have a plist now because it's a &rest parameter that's getting forwared through apply as a bunch of &key arguments.... looking for the most elegant way to add keyword defaults if they're not in the plist (or there, but nil). 07:01:25 learning loop could be convenient, but I wouldn't call it urgent, (loop for (k v) on '(k1 v1 k2 v2) by #'cddr do ...) 07:02:06 that's shorter than my current implementation with do 07:04:17 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has joined #lisp 07:06:05 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128060076.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:08:15 Land of Lisp gave me the impression that there's been a bit of a "holy war" over the loop macro 07:09:04 robot-beethoven: yes... but take a look at the iterate macro, that's very similar to loop but more lispy 07:09:05 my impression is that the holy wars have largely died out due to declining usenet participation 07:10:09 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-123-190.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:05 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:11:38 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:12:37 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-153-208.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:15:12 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 07:19:17 Oddity [~Oddity@d75-156-94-13.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:17 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@d75-156-94-13.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:19:17 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 07:20:36 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 07:20:44 benny` [~benny@i577A1206.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:20:50 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: .] 07:22:22 robot-beethoven: i find alists rather clunky and consider them to be more or less an anachronism 07:22:41 robot-beethoven: and (setf (getf plist :key) value) is really handy 07:23:00 -!- Lazik [~Lazik@unaffiliated/lazik] has quit [] 07:25:40 -!- nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 07:26:28 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:27:39 -!- cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:27:55 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:28:35 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.102.67.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:30:51 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:31:18 robot-beethoven: for iterating over plists, i use alexandria:doplist or - rarely - loop for (key value) on plist by #'cddr 07:31:50 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 07:31:52 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-123-190.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:32:32 -!- magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:32:38 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:32:52 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:33:01 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 07:33:09 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:33:48 -!- acieroid` is now known as acieroid 07:34:30 magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has joined #lisp 07:40:57 I almost suggested a doplist, useful that it's already in alexandria. a nice thing about "do"-macros is that they follow such a common pattern that they don't place much burden on readers who are unfamiliar with a particular one 07:42:10 a mapplist would be kind of nice, but i think it is not there because it would be unidiomatic (mapping functions in cl accept one or more lists as argument, hence the reversal of function and list argument) 07:44:36 -!- Guest67008 [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:44:43 TimKack [~user@c-2ec214db-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 07:45:17 kindHuman [lostcase@unaffiliated/changednicks] has joined #lisp 07:47:15 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 07:47:42 -!- xristos is now known as Guest14071 07:49:36 -!- Guest14071 [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:51:13 xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 07:53:17 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:53:38 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 07:55:02 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:55:06 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 08:04:23 H4ns: hmmmm, it's time for me to look into alexandria 08:04:51 quicklisp makes it so easy for me to try these libraries; it's great 08:05:06 -!- xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:06:43 xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 08:06:54 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 08:07:39 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053000081.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:08:07 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 08:09:49 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-122-245.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:33 -!- Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.7.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:14:35 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-125-151.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:29 -!- kindHuman is now known as nicebot 08:16:04 -!- benny` is now known as benny 08:16:12 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-122-245.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:16:37 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@FLH9Aab022.nra.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:18:31 is alexandria a good library to :use? or do people generally qualify it's good uses? 08:19:11 robot-beethoven: some do this, some do that. i don't :use anything 08:20:22 -!- nicebot is now known as human_bot 08:21:11 EvilTosha-ub [~eviltosha@isa1.alpha-pc.com] has joined #lisp 08:23:49 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:24:36 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-157-214.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:21 I've found it's easy enough to add local nicknames to packages 08:27:27 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:27:44 (rename-package package package nicknames) 08:27:52 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-125-151.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:27:59 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@63.130.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 08:28:02 I'm doing '((cl-lex lex) (cl-ppcre re) (lparallel lp) (lparallel.queue lq) (postmodern pg)) 08:28:25 that allows me to both always qualify and keep sane :) 08:29:11 dim: these nicknames are not "local", though. 08:29:47 Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.7.122] has joined #lisp 08:30:25 I mean they're only in the scope of my project, as I didn't publish it 08:30:50 dim: There's an unportable and unfinished library for local nicknames. 08:30:52 https://github.com/3b/package-local-nicknames 08:31:05 sounds awesome :( 08:31:19 Anyone wants to try and turn it into a document for CDR? 08:31:21 :) 08:31:22 dim: i said that to point out that what you're doing might fail on you in the future. 08:31:54 Is there a place where CDRs are published/discussed? 08:32:35 H4ns: right, now that you mention it I can see that 08:32:36 They're published on some secret page linked from #lisp : http://cdr.eurolisp.org/ 08:32:47 And discussed only on #lisp. At least that's what I was told. 08:33:10 naryl: they're also discussed on the pro@ mailing list 08:33:11 ;) 08:33:31 it looks like my :export list is not read entirely. I'm confused. again. 08:34:39 they have their own mailing list(s?) too, I was glancing at it and the last discussion was about standardizing a way for users to know if a CDR was implemented on their system -- I think the CDRs will be worth more if that is followed through 08:35:59 IMO the first step is a list of implemented CDRs on implementations' pages. No need to change the language and gets the info to whoever needs it. 08:37:10 I think programmatic determination of CDR availability would provide significant value 08:38:01 the discussion mentioned features or agreed upon package names, but seemed to leave the issue unresolved 08:39:03 jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has joined #lisp 08:40:21 Vivitron: It's needed for portable libraries. But until CDRs are mentioned somewhere on SBCL/CCL/ECL etc downloads pages along with the table of supported platforms they'll be mostly ignored. 08:40:21 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:40:31 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-11-91.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:40:59 CDRs are _documents_ 08:42:35 ql:where-is-system to the rescue 08:42:50 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@195.160.233.181] has joined #lisp 08:43:12 cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 08:44:04 documents describing what? Standardizing a feature's (MOP, generic comparison etc) interface and behaviour? 08:44:44 And when there is interface and behaviour it can be implemented either in a portable library or as an implementation extension. 08:47:14 ahinki [~ahinki@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 08:47:22 "can be implemented" 08:47:33 someone has to do that; that means that someone needs to care enough 08:47:47 at the moment, it appears that no-one cares enough about many (any?) of the proposals currently documented 08:48:28 to fix this: describe something that is actually of value, document it carefully enough, and implement it in one or more implementations or as a portable library 08:48:35 Kryztof: there are some that were implemented first and proposed second (: 08:48:36 -!- xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:48:41 And nobody will care enough if nobody knows about it. SBCL's home page should get a table saying that it doesn't implement any of CDRs linking to cdr.eurolisp.org :) 08:48:51 Kryztof: package-local-nicknaes works on SBCL btw. 08:48:57 for me at least. 08:48:58 naryl: but it does! it implements CDR 3 08:49:17 right :) 08:49:20 sorry :) 08:49:25 Kryztof: I think part of the not-caring is because without the last step of programmatic determination of a CDRs implementation, users are forever relegated to either implementation specific code or reliance on portability libraries 08:49:39 um 08:49:59 "relegated"? 08:50:13 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 08:50:17 -!- xristos is now known as Guest73153 08:50:32 pkhuong: I will admit that the MOP is partially implemented by many CL implementations :-) 08:50:39 actually, it would be nice if we had at least some informal RFC-style forum for such things with actual implementations of the proposals 08:51:07 p_l: that was tried too. It foundered because no-one proposed anything of any interest and no-one did any of the necessary boring work 08:51:33 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:51:49 In my experience, the problem with all of these things that people suggest all the time is that no-one cares enough to actually do the work that is necessary to make them sustainable 08:51:59 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 08:52:52 (I tried, once. Good times) 08:53:10 it is certainly not a matter of creating another discussion group. 08:53:27 poor H4ns 08:53:47 why, because i'm good at creating them? :) 08:54:12 more because you created the last one 08:54:20 Kryztof: *checks-his-dictionary* err, not relegated after all -- new good stuff won't send us to an inferior position 08:54:54 Kryztof: i was not the initiator, though. and in my personal perception, pro@ is not so bad. 08:55:11 it's probably not so bad 08:55:41 I can't remember why I unsubscribed, except that I probably had more lisp discussion venues than lisp programming, professional or otherwise, at the time :) 08:56:14 -!- nicdev_ [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:56:59 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:57:21 -!- lebro [~Adium@ool-18bab4b8.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 08:57:36 as for programmatic detection of CDR support: don't test for some *feature* or some magic symbol: test for the functionality that you need 08:57:48 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 08:58:02 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@164-177-155-66.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:58:25 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:59:13 -!- kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@164-177-155-66.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:59:26 Kryztof: I'll try that. 08:59:45 for example: (let ((mflv (apropos-list "MAKE-FILE-LOCAL-VARIABLE" nil t))) (if (= length mflv 1) (funcall (car mflv '*my-variable*)) (error "M-F-L-V not supported"))) 09:00:19 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 09:00:34 -!- cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:01:16 on the other hand, there you could not bother testing at all, and your code will work in environments supporting make-file-local-variable and not in those which don't. 09:05:16 cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 09:06:47 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 09:07:06 Kryztof: thanks 09:07:20 Kryztof: file local variables is implemented somewhere? 09:07:23 *are 09:07:48 except as asdf extension 09:08:55 no idea 09:08:59 almost certainly not 09:09:36 I didn't find it in clisp, ccl, or sbcl, although it's "MAKE-VARIABLE-FILE-LOCAL" 09:09:55 leo2007 [~leo@120.33.26.6] has joined #lisp 09:10:01 sure. That's the second part, about people not caring enough 09:10:28 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 09:10:28 but if something provides it (e.g. a library) then code with the above will work 09:10:42 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 09:10:52 and for something like make-variable-file-local, maybe it is better if the functionality exists but not completely crucial 09:10:52 ledai [~lda@177.Red-83-61-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:16 (length alist) is O(N)? 09:13:25 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@63.130.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 09:13:27 yes 09:17:33 -!- shifty [~user@114-198-37-54.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:18:26 shifty [~user@114-198-37-54.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:19:14 BrianRice` [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:15 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:19:18 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 09:20:23 BrianRice` [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:25 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:20:25 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 09:21:17 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@195.160.233.181] has left #lisp 09:24:17 BrianRice` [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:18 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:24:20 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 09:25:50 -!- kanru` [~user@199.195.142.182] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:29:54 peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 09:34:49 -!- manahino [~manahino@softbank126108006128.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:40:53 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d142-179-78-231.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 09:43:01 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-156.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:44:35 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-156.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:53:08 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-cvasfuzgnvdongdr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:54:59 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:56:18 zfx [~zfx@109.174.157.242] has joined #lisp 09:58:11 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-156.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:59:20 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:01:57 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:01:57 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-156.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:02:12 harish [~harish@155.69.142.3] has joined #lisp 10:02:56 Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@gateway/tor-sasl/mattsg/x-78535695] has joined #lisp 10:03:30 -!- harish [~harish@155.69.142.3] has left #lisp 10:06:29 -!- leo2007 [~leo@120.33.26.6] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.96.1] 10:07:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-58-245.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 10:07:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-58-245.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 10:07:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:07:54 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 10:08:51 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.66.141] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:10:20 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-seebcnuvsorkoajo] has joined #lisp 10:17:56 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-seebcnuvsorkoajo] has quit [Changing host] 10:17:56 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 10:25:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 10:25:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:26:31 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:26:32 -!- Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@gateway/tor-sasl/mattsg/x-78535695] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 10:26:52 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-157-214.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:27:44 Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@gateway/tor-sasl/mattsg/x-78535695] has joined #lisp 10:28:42 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 10:29:45 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Client Quit] 10:30:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:31:46 leo2007 [~leo@120.33.26.6] has joined #lisp 10:32:45 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 10:35:40 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 10:38:26 harish [~harish@155.69.142.3] has joined #lisp 10:38:54 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 10:40:35 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 10:41:16 First candidate for CDR2 amendment. http://paste.lisp.org/display/129400 10:41:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-58-245.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 10:41:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-58-245.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 10:41:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:41:26 It's from package-local-nicknames source. 10:41:37 -!- Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@gateway/tor-sasl/mattsg/x-78535695] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:42:29 -!- gko [~gko@220.228.255.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:43:24 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 10:47:47 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-130-75.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:50 you can't amend CDRs 10:53:08 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.12.190] has quit [Quit: xyxu] 10:54:19 Can you write a new revised version? Like CDR 4. 10:54:46 e271 [d521469d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 10:55:02 (Makes sense of course. What if somebody implements the old CDR and then it changes? Amendment should be a new document.) 10:56:26 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-224.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:57:36 -!- Guest73153 [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:58:57 sure, you can write a new version 10:59:13 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 10:59:17 -!- xristos is now known as Guest27710 11:00:57 larsb [c10cd2f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.12.210.241] has joined #lisp 11:01:46 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:02:06 -!- Guest27710 [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:02:07 -!- larsb [c10cd2f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.12.210.241] has left #lisp 11:02:09 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 11:05:13 xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 11:06:03 -!- Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:07:22 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:07:44 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-098-024-165-246.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 11:08:06 -!- xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:09:27 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-130-75.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:09:43 xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 11:09:47 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:12:48 rdd` [~user@2001:6b0:3a:1:f2de:f1ff:fe65:183b] has joined #lisp 11:12:56 -!- rdd` [~user@2001:6b0:3a:1:f2de:f1ff:fe65:183b] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:13:52 snearch [~snearch@f053000081.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:14:56 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-127-161.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:13 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:17:16 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053000081.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 11:20:06 -!- xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:21:53 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-178-143.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:22:47 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-178-143.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:23:27 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-127-161.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:23:54 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-156.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:24:14 xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 11:25:19 is LOCALLY without declaration valid portably? 11:25:46 of course 11:25:48 yes 11:27:51 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-178-143.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:34:30 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 11:35:08 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:36:39 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.94.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:37:05 -!- leo2007 [~leo@120.33.26.6] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.96.1] 11:38:06 gigamonkey_ [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-8.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:06 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-8.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:38:07 -!- gigamonkey_ is now known as gigamonkey 11:39:51 is it sane to modern lisp to compile form like this effeciently, (let ((obj (thing-returning-unknown))) (locally (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0) (debug 0))) (is-enabled-for (locally (declare (optimize (debug 1) (safety 1))) obj))) where is-enabled-for is inline function 11:40:40 idea is to get obj checked for correct type, declared as arg in the is-enabled-for, only once, and as efficiently as possible, leaving rest of is-enabled-for to be as speedy as possible 11:41:03 in fact for non-sbcl I probably should use (the 'asserted-type obj) 11:41:24 i don't get it 11:42:16 the object will be checked for the correct type only once in any compiler without any declarions 11:42:18 *maxm-* apparently has memory-fault in log4cl, when loggers are specified at runtime.. No one hit it yet, coz either not many ppl use it, or no one uses explicit loggers (I sure don't) 11:43:45 since 99% of cases logger is constant at runtime, I have a check for if its enabled wrapped into safety 0, speed 3 debug 0, so it compiles to a few instructions... But I forgot about the code path where logger is specified at runtime, like (log:debug (expression-returning-a-logger) ...stuff...) 11:43:47 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-107-122-25.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:45:20 just get rid of all optimize declarations, it won't make it noticeably faster auto-magically 11:45:30 mucker [~mucker@202.65.155.202] has joined #lisp 11:45:55 it actually does, thats the critical path 11:46:32 faster in real applications? or faster when measuring the logger performance? 11:46:43 if b), then your optimization is premature. 11:46:55 *maxm-* actually has tons of traces/debug statements throughout, and removing safety 0 speed 3 prevents dynamic-extent of the logging statement closure from working, so it will start to cons 11:47:05 H4ns: Don't ruin maxm-'s fun. :) 11:47:39 naryl: i can't anyway. he is immune to reasoning. 11:48:22 -!- zfx [~zfx@109.174.157.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:49:01 *maxm-* knows a difference between premature optimization, and optimizing critical path piece, and yes I have seen ppl killing their application by using logging that cons too much (altho in Java not in lisp) 11:49:20 heh. 11:49:34 *jdz* wonders when will people stop being obsessed with (safety 0) 11:49:37 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 11:50:05 jdz: BUT IT"S FASTER!!!1111 11:50:20 fast is good, even if it's wrong 11:50:22 meh, next you'll say all the "truely-the" things in SBCL are not needed either.. I mean why bother 11:51:09 all i want to say is for people to stop bothering with (safety 0) and use (safety 1); the performance gains are not worth it. 11:51:12 (if any) 11:51:36 -!- xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:52:05 (safety 0) is particularly annoying in untested library code that is published to be used. 11:52:22 People... I need some help. With one of the most difficult tasks in software development. 11:52:22 stassats`: I don't see how if you know at compile time, that what you putting into the macroexpansion is a (constantp), that using safety 0 in accessing it is unsafe. 11:52:52 if you know it, then chances are the compiler knows it too 11:53:04 maxm-: then why are you getting memory faults? 11:53:13 xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 11:54:24 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:54:46 -!- cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:54:57 cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 11:55:19 jdz: very easy, I initially had implementation where logger is determined automatically from context. Ie (log:debug "blah x=~s" x)... It determines logger at macro expansion time, then does (let ((logger ..const-logger...)) (when (locally (declare speed 3 safety 0) (is-enabled-for logger :debug)) ... do the actual logging ..) 11:55:37 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-48-12.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:56:24 jdz: so as you can see the optimize thing is very localized, because is-enabled-for is called lots of times, if you put into inner loop of your number crunching, it will show up as 10% or so of the profiling time 11:56:25 maxm-: if i'd want to have fast log flag checking, i'd use a bitmap and some macrology to map from symbols to the bitmap at compile time. 11:56:38 H4ns: it does use the bitmap 11:57:32 maxm-: obviously, it does so in a fashion that made you use non-standard optimizations settings to be fast. maybe you can find a way that is fast and does not require playing tricks. 11:57:45 H4ns: but it also has multiple hierarchies (so you can have independent logging config per vhost or per listener), so its not trivial, but goes through *hierarchy* variable, then through array, to etc.. So optimize helps to reduce it to just few instructions 11:58:03 maxm-: then, it'd be fast also on implementations that have different optimization behavior than the one that you are now optimizing for. 11:58:31 maxm-: right. when you're overengineering, you can easily paint yourself into the "slow" corner. 11:58:36 H4ns: it works perfectly safe when logger is constant.. SBCL has tons of stuff like that where it uses (truely-the) when it knows thing is of certain type 11:59:13 maxm-: so as you can see, you should not use (safety 0) 12:00:12 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@176.97.27.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:00:26 I'd just overwrite machine code, if it were that much of an issue. 12:00:37 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 12:00:59 or change SBCL to produce better code 12:01:08 pkhuong: oh god, what have you done! 12:01:55 cnl [~cnl@95.106.55.40] has joined #lisp 12:01:59 well anyway, should not have asked anyway, expecting this response 12:03:09 I was thinking of breaking out my html template framework into its own library. I need a suggestion as to what I should call such library. It's have been HTML-TEMPLATE if it wasn't for the fact that that has already been taken (it's also not purely for html). I really need some suggestions. 12:03:50 loke: come up with something unique, like troll-beard. that'll make it easier to find the documentation when needed. 12:03:51 html-stencil 12:04:57 stassats`: not bad 12:05:14 bah. square names are square 12:05:26 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:30 I'm really jealous of names like Hunchentoot. How the hel do people come up with these names? I must have absolutely zero imagination. 12:05:48 loke: you could become a zappa fan and then steal from his imagination. 12:05:48 loke: they listen to operas. 12:06:02 H4ns: that must be it. I don't like Zappa 12:06:21 loke: you can also try stealing from britney spears 12:06:29 generate/make/create/spit/barf/print/produce... html-generator, html-spitter, html-barfer etc 12:06:31 loke: although there might be less to find there, granted. 12:06:35 well, template and temple comes from the same word, so you can name it parthenon or something 12:06:48 there is also (W)atever (S)erver (P)ages thing.. 12:06:52 troll-beard would be a pun on mustache 12:06:54 I'm a Skinny Puppy fan, but I don't think a name like "Killing Game", "Worlock" or "VX Gas Attack" would work very well. 12:06:55 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-cxahurvsekvmyaba] has joined #lisp 12:07:13 loke: heh. 12:07:21 H4ns: haha. actually not bad... :-) 12:08:16 Hmm 12:08:30 You've given me something to think about. Thanks guys :-) 12:08:31 minion: what does vxdxq stand for? 12:08:31 Vesiculigerous Xoanon Dermatauxe Xeromenia Quotidianly 12:08:48 minion: I think it should be possible to remember the name :-) 12:08:49 loke: there you go. 5 random letters, that ought to be googlable enough. 12:08:49 good for you 12:09:30 html-compass: round out your html (aka the non-square html library) 12:09:47 is it limited to html? 12:09:59 Skinny Puppy made a CD called "Cleanse, Fold and Manipulate". That name is remarkably appicable to a templating language :-) 12:10:38 Vivitron: compass? really? how many things with that name does search give? 12:11:09 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:11:42 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host223-230-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:12:00 jdz: there's an "HTMLCompass" directional compass, looks like that's it 12:13:15 Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 12:13:18 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has left #lisp 12:13:45 *maxm-* always liked "we can splice and catenate, jointly and together" message from perl autoconf 12:14:17 maybe you can somehow make it into the name... html-tailor or something 12:14:31 maybe name Advanced HTHML Authoring Facility 12:14:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:14:38 and drop the HTML from the name 12:15:43 guys, with such names, lisp will never attract the young and energetic! 12:15:56 master-manipulator 12:16:07 make it makiavelli 12:16:10 world-dominator 12:16:11 Web Authoring Tool, short WAT, as in Angkor Wat, where Wat means "temple" 12:16:18 stassats`: heh 12:16:37 from Khmer 12:16:41 stassats`: woah 12:16:46 not bad 12:17:21 robolobster54 [~robolobst@77.241.58.140] has joined #lisp 12:20:15 twiner, weaver? coz of "web" 12:20:25 it's time to start my webapp server... I'm a bit scared 12:21:17 kiuma: You won't know if it works until you start it. And if you don't know if it works or not you don't know if you need to fix it and can't start fixing it if you need. 12:21:20 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@63.130.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:21:30 snearch [~snearch@f053000081.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:21:40 :) 12:22:09 I can say.... it worked before refactoring 12:22:19 kiuma: then it should work now as well 12:22:23 I know that feel :) 12:22:43 loke, I swear it won't 12:22:45 :P 12:22:56 loke: nope. manual refactoring is prone to errors. And CL has no refactoring tools because 12:23:09 naryl: well yeah. I know 12:23:15 I was being obnoxious 12:23:17 You should write the code correctly from the beginning © Archimag 12:23:28 anyway the fun is there too 12:23:51 naryl, said Alice in Wonderland 12:24:36 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-tdhtfppcbnqpment] has joined #lisp 12:24:40 ok ok, kiuma stop babbling and start to work 12:28:25 you need test suite 12:28:35 is it possible to declare ignore a loop variable? 12:28:38 yea I think so 12:28:51 or is there a magic variable like _ to express it's just a matching var? 12:28:55 add a test each time you find a bug, actually leads to "learning from your mistakes", otherwise mistakes are just forgotten 12:29:31 dim: there isn't, unfortunately. 12:29:47 I'm reading that you can use you can use (loop for (nil b) ...) 12:30:20 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 12:30:25 http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/Lisp/comp.lang.lisp/2006-06/msg01350.html 12:30:27 maxm-, it's a good suggestion, better than blindly write unit tests (like I've often seen in java ... when there is any at all ) 12:30:33 there's an interesting trick inside 12:30:51 dim: that works for destructuring 12:31:34 jdz: but, then again, nearly every loop binding clause is destructuring. 12:32:41 yeah, my comment does not make much sense 12:33:28 (defmacro unused (&rest vars) `(progn ,@vars nil)) (loop ... do (unused a b c) ...) 12:33:31 kiuma: I usuall go through the following loop: Write an item in TODO list => implement it => write the test. 12:33:39 For bugs you first write the test, then fix the bug. 12:33:49 well I'll sit on the useless warnings for the time being 12:34:04 ok 12:35:27 mmm, postmodern's query function will fetch all data up front, it's not an iterator like interface 12:35:34 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:35:49 pnq [~nick@AC811E67.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:36:45 doquery 12:36:54 Is there a library (like BABEL?) that can convert strings, but sending the output to a stream instead of outputting to a string? 12:37:18 minion: flexistreams? 12:37:18 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``flexistreams''. 12:37:21 minion: flexi-streams? 12:37:22 flexi-streams: FLEXI-STREAMS is a library which implements "virtual" bivalent streams that can be layered atop real binary/bivalent streams. http://www.cliki.net/flexi-streams 12:37:26 ah 12:37:27 OK, thanks 12:39:38 -!- mikaelj [~tic@c83-249-198-162.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:40:44 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:41:10 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:41:52 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 12:42:26 loke, just (flexi-streams:make-in-memory-input-stream bytes) 12:42:54 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:43:07 Looking now. Thanks! 12:44:14 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:31 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 12:45:06 -!- xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:45:13 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 12:45:36 -!- xristos is now known as Guest76020 12:45:41 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:45:42 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-5-217.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:46:31 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 12:49:18 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:49:30 If I create a flexi-stream around a binary stream, and then write some binary data using WRITE-SEQUENCE, will the flexi-stream try to encode it, or will it simply eb written as binary to the underlying stream? 12:50:08 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:55:03 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 12:55:38 leo2007 [~leo@120.33.26.6] has joined #lisp 12:58:49 -!- mucker [~mucker@202.65.155.202] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:01:58 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:03:04 -!- harish [~harish@155.69.142.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:04:07 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 13:04:24 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 13:04:33 manahino [~manahino@softbank126108006128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:56 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@Lark.price.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 13:05:07 anil [~anil@14.96.84.194] has joined #lisp 13:05:45 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:06:16 hi all 13:06:33 hello 13:06:57 hi loke 13:09:16 -!- anil [~anil@14.96.84.194] has left #lisp 13:11:08 zfx [~zfx@109.174.157.242] has joined #lisp 13:12:31 what is the right way to ask Xach to refresh a system from github if he can? 13:12:42 *maxm-* pushed a bugfix that he would like to make it into Sunday's release 13:13:32 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 13:17:27 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:20:02 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:25:18 maxm-: he does that automatically every month. 13:26:34 pjb: yea but I don't know his lead time, I just pushed a fix and think he may have already fetched it 13:26:45 anyway I opened issue on quicklisp-projects 13:26:48 xyxu [~xyxu@61.171.42.155] has joined #lisp 13:29:39 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:30:20 I just had my first in-production condition, picked the transfert-error restart (was in a transient thread) and the script just goes on 13:30:25 I'm impressed. 13:30:39 and on the road, see you :) 13:30:42 lparallel? 13:30:50 yes 13:31:06 hm... in-production? :) 13:31:15 TimKack` [~user@c-2ec2290a-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 13:31:28 yes, it's a one shot script but in production 13:31:45 I'm happy with lparallel up to now 13:31:49 -!- TimKack [~user@c-2ec214db-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:31:59 using basic things and the queue module 13:32:17 not doing map/reduce and the like, plet or whatever 13:32:31 just basic threading and communication 13:33:07 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:33:11 I will be happy when it allows you to release the thread when its current task blocks for some reason. Probably impossible without continuations. 13:33:47 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:34:15 i.e. when gets a preemptive scheduler. :) 13:35:26 -!- pnq [~nick@AC811E67.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:37:30 naryl: isn't that what "green threads" do? 13:38:13 pmetzger [~pmetzger@166.84.161.166] has joined #lisp 13:38:46 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:38:47 yes 13:38:57 naryl: it's possible for a task queue, but can lead to pretty bad corner cases. 13:39:08 LispWorks for instance got native threads only in the latest version (6) 13:39:20 as far as i know, at least 13:40:18 tasks are isoated of course. Except when they wait for additional input on some shared var e.g. With current lparallel implementation such tasks block their thread. 13:40:45 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:41:41 naryl: so, you became unhappy when lisp implementations finally started having real threads instead of the green threads? 13:41:55 -!- cnl [~cnl@95.106.55.40] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:42:00 well, s/real/native 13:42:08 ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:42:20 jdz: no, lisp implementations on "green threads" didn't use more than one OS thread. It's even less useful than native threads. 13:43:03 naryl: so, you have a gazillion of native threads that bring your OS to the knees? 13:43:39 naryl: I solved it a bit with code walking, see cl-cilk, but it has severe limitations like no coming-out/sneaking-back into flet/labels, defmethods don't work etc. 13:43:49 so I'll in fact will be switching my stuff to lparallel 13:45:30 dim: have you tried lparallel's sorting? does it work for you? 13:46:16 -!- borkman` is now known as borkman 13:46:33 wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:47:04 -!- TimKack` [~user@c-2ec2290a-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:47:18 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:27 graspee [~graspee@02dd1c10.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 13:48:28 jdz: You're right. I'll just create an OS thread for all tasks that could potentially block and use lparallel only for non-blocking tasks. ~30 threads waiting on a mutex most of the time shouldn't bring an OS to its knees. 13:48:42 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 13:49:09 Also they're not created/destroyed often which is the problem lparallel solves. 13:49:16 the blocking ones. 13:49:28 *madnificent* found node.js's comments on parallization hilarious. first program everything non-blocking then use a single thread. 13:51:24 mikaelj [~tic@c83-249-198-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:52:05 Borbie [~user@cmp-d-8k1gx2j.cmp.uea.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:52:23 [SLB] [~slabua@host33-161-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:52:23 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host33-161-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 13:52:23 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 13:52:39 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 13:54:36 all of real-life scenarios I seen, all were completely CPU bound 13:54:54 real-life scenarios of websites under heavy pounding 13:55:32 to be fair, in all the cases database usually was smaller then physical ram on machine, so was working from cache 13:55:42 Doug Lea's Fork/Join mostly tells you Not To Do That. 13:55:49 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:57:05 harish [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:57:07 gozek [~quassel@195.Red-88-12-178.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:48 I'm wondering if writing a simple REPL in Lisp would be a good exercise for teaching lisp. Grasping that the REPL is doing I think is an important step in learning Lisp. What do people think? 13:58:12 (loop (print (eval (read))) ? 13:58:24 That's a standard exercise for people learning lisp. 13:58:37 My instructor made us write a metacircular evaluator in 1983. 13:58:39 Yeah but actually implementing read and print, and maybe eval 13:58:48 implementing read and print is cruel. 13:58:52 eval is easy. 13:59:03 (for a simple dialect.) 13:59:09 nicdev_ [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has joined #lisp 13:59:30 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:59:45 Just for sexps with no reader macros? 13:59:59 Print I think would be a lot more boring 14:00:10 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@63.130.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 14:00:11 do you want them to take weeks doing this or do you want this to be a normal weekly assignment? 14:00:19 are these grad students or are these freshmen? 14:01:01 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053000081.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 14:01:14 Grad students.. but it's likely they've never done parsing 14:01:33 Unfortunately that sort of thing is not necessary any more 14:01:37 CS grad students who haven't done parsing? 14:01:51 Yeah... 14:02:11 PhD students or masters? MSCS these days feels more like "second undergrad degree" for most of the students 14:02:27 the PhD students I've seen in programming languages know parsing pretty well. 14:02:34 even first years 14:02:54 but anyway, yes, parsing lisp is a pretty good exercise if you keep it simple. 14:03:14 Actually I think if their degree is "computer science" then they have, but there are some related degrees that don't 14:03:16 imho write something practical 14:03:25 even for grad students I wouldn't make them do anything terribly complicated beyond pretty basic s expressions. 14:03:37 Yeah, a REPL is very practical though IMO 14:03:49 I don't understand how you can write any actual software, ever, without running into parsing. It seems like I run into it at every turn. 14:04:03 sykopomp: i would agree, but... 14:04:07 You think the average Java programmer does parsing? 14:04:11 Come on... 14:04:12 yes. 14:04:20 they do. they have to read files containing things. 14:04:27 They use a library 14:04:35 only if it is a format that has a library. 14:04:41 Yes, even Java programmers have to parse. 14:04:42 like XML(spit) 14:05:01 half of what perl programmers do is build parsers. :) 14:05:17 Yeah, a lot of people here use PERL to parse DNA strings 14:05:42 But.. honestly I think a lot of Java programmers wuldn't know what to do if a format didn't have a library available 14:05:43 if you gonna write a parser, Lisp equivalent of BeatifulSoup would be great 14:05:56 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:05:58 probably can base of off sxml 14:06:17 I like LR parser generators. They're underappreciated vs recursive descent. 14:06:24 donno if you can make sxml relaxed enough to parse broken sgml 14:06:24 -!- cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:06:49 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-tdhtfppcbnqpment] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:06:51 ok 14:06:59 that's enough arguing with agile devs for today 14:07:07 I used lex and yacc the last time I did it 14:07:19 there are java programmers, and java programmers.. You can write cool stuff in any language.. Java makes it really easy for bad programmers to write ok stuff, thats why its popular. 14:07:21 The last time I did it not in lisp I should add 14:08:24 You can implement a read and a print in a few minutes. You don't need to implement cl:read and cl:print. 14:09:40 Yeah I wouldn't want to do the cl: versions, just very simple ones, I think it would be good for learning since I find implementing something is a good way to learn what it does 14:10:21 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:53 dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:30 What about an eval from a minimum set of operators? 14:12:53 Borbie: yes, it's quite feasible. John McCarthy showed it was possible in 1959. 14:13:20 Borbie: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/ 14:14:01 Borbie: or you can implement scheme eval. Or a number of different eval: Lisp in Small Pieces http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz 14:15:17 Thanks! I will take a look 14:15:28 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 14:15:36 I found this also: http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/jmc.lisp 14:15:55 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-cxahurvsekvmyaba] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:16:18 mucker [~mucker@183.83.21.171] has joined #lisp 14:16:34 borodust [~borodust@vps-1078386-6573.manage.myhosting.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:52 -!- ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: bah! an] 14:16:53 that last link is great 14:17:24 asvil [~asvil@178.121.94.18] has joined #lisp 14:18:05 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:19:21 -!- borodust [~borodust@vps-1078386-6573.manage.myhosting.com] has left #lisp 14:19:25 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Quit: ] 14:21:41 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 14:21:47 I guess I would need to read McCarthy's paper (actually got a copy of it around somewhere).. not sure why that eval takes two args 14:21:49 *maxm-* is idly wondering if kde has a klisp project buried somewhere where car/cadar is kar/kadar 14:21:49 vervic [~vervic@vie-078-142-130-186.dsl.sil.at] has joined #lisp 14:22:03 Yuuhi [benni@p54839F56.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:35 Borbie: why do you think I gave you that aim-8 link above? 14:22:47 graspee: what's the difference between jmc.lisp and aim-8.lisp ? 14:24:05 The eval in aim-8 has one input as I expected 14:24:18 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:24:52 morning 14:25:15 In http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/aim-8.lisp --> (defun %eval (e) -- how many argument do I see here? 14:25:36 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 14:25:54 Borbie: these evals are broken. 14:26:13 pkhuong: sure, they're using more lambda-calculus than a practical implementation. 14:27:00 They'll evaluate expressions in exponential time or worse. 14:27:27 That just show the difference between writing papers and writing programs. 14:27:47 (the later leads to better understanding of problems, IMO). 14:29:30 pjb: did you do the aim-8 transcription? I'm glad to see it, considering the quality of the pdf 14:29:41 Yes, I did it. 14:30:01 -!- Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.7.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:30:04 Borbie: http://paste.lisp.org/display/18280 a simple REPL. 14:30:27 Vivitron: you may also like this transcription: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/flpl/index.html 14:30:32 what's a recommended manner for learning about cl-cont? 14:30:57 dekuked: continuations? Reading some paper from the scheme library at http://schemers.org 14:31:14 Well, I don't know if it's THE recommended manner, it's what I'd do. 14:31:15 -!- gozek [~quassel@195.Red-88-12-178.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:33:16 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-8.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 14:33:28 pjb: I haven't seen that one before, (push 'flpl *to-read*), thanks 14:34:31 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34:48 I'm not sure if this is still relevant today, but this paper made continuations seems like a pretty cool silver bullet http://double.co.nz/pdf/continuations.pdf 14:35:21 Vivitron: be sure to check http://www.informatimago.com/articles/flpl/figures.lisp ; I had a lot of fun doing that to draw the diagrams :-) 14:35:34 It's not a silver bullet, but it allows some things which are impossible or very hard without them. Like restarts. 14:36:05 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs27123025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:38:54 Posterdati [~tapioca@host223-230-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:44:19 -!- ahinki [~ahinki@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0/20120501201020]] 14:46:33 -!- ledai [~lda@177.Red-83-61-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ledai] 14:49:03 insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 14:49:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:51:59 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 14:52:54 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-227-105.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:06 TimKack`` [~user@c-2ec2bbfa-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 14:53:24 kilon [~kilon@77.49.166.167.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:55:15 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 14:56:51 tfb [~tfb@92.40.229.194.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:57:53 -!- dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:58:43 dekuked [~user@mail.kesnermorrissey.com] has joined #lisp 14:59:13 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:02:15 -!- TimKack`` [~user@c-2ec2bbfa-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:04:01 TimKack [~user@c-2ec2bbfa-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 15:04:33 Odin- [~sbkhh@214-106-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is] has joined #lisp 15:04:37 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:07:09 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 15:08:32 hi, when I call curl-easy-perform in libcurl (C library) it outputs the result to standard output, is it possible to grab that? I tried (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (curl-easy-perform ...)) but it returns an empty string, is it supposed to work? (I may call libcurl in a wrong way, so I'm not sure) 15:08:53 ignotus: use drakma 15:09:03 depends on the implementation. See if it as a run-program with an :output argument. 15:09:05 H4ns: I want libcurl:) 15:09:32 pjb: thanks 15:09:36 ignotus: i can't help with that. but may i ask why? 15:10:02 H4ns: drakma sometimes blows up in various ways (related to utf8 I think), I don't want to deal with that 15:10:07 ignotus: oh, sorry, so libcurl with ffi. You could do more implementation specific magic to redirect fd 1 to some file or pipe that you'd read after. 15:10:10 I just want to fetch content 15:10:26 ignotus: there are various purely lisp libraries to do that. Check the sources of quicklisp. 15:10:43 ignotus: you could have drakma fetch octet vectors instead of strings and never have encoding problems then. 15:11:03 H4ns: that's cool, I haven't thought of that, checking 15:11:39 :force-binary ah, that seems just right 15:11:45 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:14:01 -!- jacobw2 [~jacobw@fedora/jacobw] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:15:18 I called a function in slime, it's started threads, it's running, if I reload the code in Emacs will that impact running code? 15:16:03 dim: yes 15:16:23 dim: but the currently executing function is not changed underneath a running thread. 15:16:35 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:16:36 ok 15:16:53 both useful a definition and not helpful enough here :) 15:16:55 maybe I have just too old libs, would someone please try this out? It errors with "While reading status line: End of file, but expected #\Newline." here (drakma:http-request "http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3770729") 15:18:58 ignotus: that is either a bug in ycombinator.com or in drakma 15:19:04 ignotus: let me find out real quick 15:19:36 H4ns: standing by 15:20:42 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@61.171.42.155] has quit [Quit: xyxu] 15:21:55 ignotus: try (setf chunga:*accept-bogus-eols* t) 15:22:06 ignotus: ycombinator.com does not properly talk http 15:22:35 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:48 H4ns: thanks, it works now 15:22:53 i'd be in favor of setting that flag by default. 15:23:03 "be strict in what you emit and liberal in what you accept" 15:23:17 *nods* 15:23:18 H4ns: I think there should be a single option to drakma. Something like *non-strict-html* 15:23:20 or http 15:23:52 it's a bug in arc 15:23:57 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.164] has joined #lisp 15:24:15 \o/ 15:24:55 -!- Borbie [~user@cmp-d-8k1gx2j.cmp.uea.ac.uk] has left #lisp 15:25:06 -!- kilon [~kilon@77.49.166.167.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:25:22 jdz [~jdz@host167-111-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:26:06 http://weitz.de/drakma/#prob 15:26:18 -!- slyrus__ [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:26:58 is it annoying that paul graham does not care enough? 15:27:11 H4ns: i guess making it proper requires adding additional lines of code 15:27:15 which is a no-no 15:27:24 i see. idiot. 15:29:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:30:21 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:30:22 what's the fuss abut? 15:30:35 jdz: about pg being pg 15:31:37 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.66.141] has joined #lisp 15:31:38 oh, PG's arc webserver is not proper HTTP? 15:31:57 jdz: right 15:35:23 my google skills are lacking when trying to find any explanation from PG's side on the issue... 15:35:33 is there a ticket or something somewhere? 15:35:37 -!- dekuked [~user@mail.kesnermorrissey.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:36:07 i've found http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=705095 15:36:10 i wonder how do people serve files with ARC. most probably they don't. 15:36:32 maybe files are to inelegant for Arc 15:36:53 s/to/too/ 15:37:28 not fixing this is just idiotic. 15:37:46 or maybe he wants to save on traffic 15:37:48 but maybe arc is not meant to be used, really. 15:38:45 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.16.238] has joined #lisp 15:38:52 swilde [~wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has joined #lisp 15:38:55 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:39:57 *H4ns* opened a new issue in chunga and might change the default next time he comes to making a release. 15:40:36 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:55 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:45:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:45:36 ledai [~lda@177.Red-83-61-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:54 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:46:21 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:50:18 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.175.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54:34 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:55:50 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.2] has joined #lisp 15:56:04 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 15:58:21 -!- robolobster54 [~robolobst@77.241.58.140] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:02:05 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@31.163.216.167] has joined #lisp 16:04:38 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.21.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:05:53 -!- dangling-pointer [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ccomendant] has left #lisp 16:06:06 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs27123025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:13:35 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 16:15:20 nikodemus [~nikodemus@178-55-57-180.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:15:24 dim: what lib you using for matching? 16:16:02 dim: I've been watching https://github.com/m2ym/optima on github, seems to be quite a lot of activity, wondering if someone else has time to check it out :-) 16:16:29 maxm-: matching? 16:16:43 cl-ppcre 16:16:45 I guess 16:16:48 ah doh 16:17:00 I thought you were using cl-match or something to match s-exp trees 16:17:30 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:46 for some reason talking about _ confused me, coz one existing s-exp CL matching library (one slime uses), has _ as a special symbol 16:17:57 booyaa` [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:57 sorryI 'm not, I'm just doing classic loop and destructuring-bind, and in the former case it's not readily possible to ignore a match so you get a compile time warning 16:18:19 -!- TimKack [~user@c-2ec2bbfa-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:18:41 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has left #lisp 16:19:29 TimKack` [~user@c-2ec2972d-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 16:21:23 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:25:08 -!- manahino [~manahino@softbank126108006128.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:25:30 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:33:06 pnq [~nick@ACA32474.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:44:17 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:44:56 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:46:05 -!- zfx [~zfx@109.174.157.242] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 16:46:59 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 16:49:10 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:50:06 mucker [~mucker@183.83.227.117] has joined #lisp 16:52:03 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 16:53:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-224.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:54:29 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 16:55:15 -!- pspace [~andrew@d118-75-192-10.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:55:55 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128085110.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 16:56:34 Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:41 btw, my script ran to completion, so thanks to all of you here whove been so helpful :) 16:59:04 did it take two days? 16:59:37 to run? about yes 16:59:53 that's somewhat slow 17:00:03 24h I'd guess really, but with interruptions 17:00:06 kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@164-177-155-66.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:00:16 so it took 2 days to run but it's hard to estimate how much time actually running 17:00:21 bbl :) 17:00:30 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@178-55-57-180.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:01:02 jdijk [jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has joined #lisp 17:01:16 -!- jdijk [jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 17:02:21 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:02:33 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@164-177-155-66.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:03:33 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.229.194.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Quit: gone] 17:05:01 (phase 1 + 2 took overnight, phase 3 3h or so but I had to run it several times) 17:05:19 (because of process disapeared when checking completion) 17:05:47 I guess next step for me are reading on places, finding a log facility and learning condition and restarts :) 17:07:01 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:08:08 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 17:08:25 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:47 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 17:13:00 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.167.230] has joined #lisp 17:13:43 -!- swilde [~wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:19:02 dekuked [~user@mail.kesnermorrissey.com] has joined #lisp 17:19:25 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:40 mgile [~mgile@c-75-71-186-157.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:39 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA32474.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:25:47 ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-043-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:49 pnq [~nick@ACA32474.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:26 kpreid [~kpreid@Lark.price.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 17:31:50 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:32:21 Lord_N_Laptop [~LordNLpt2@unaffiliated/lordnlptp] has joined #lisp 17:33:16 has anyone seen jamithiel/alastair bridgewater around here lately? I'm hunting for info he had on the inner workings of the IWM and SWIM chips (unrelated to nevermore) 17:33:29 jamethiel, sorry 17:34:23 nyef: have you seen alastair bridgewater? 17:34:24 Lord_N_Laptop: the former is nyef 17:34:30 :D 17:34:40 aargh 17:34:50 confusion :( 17:35:08 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 17:35:21 Oh, wow. I haven't thought about the SWIM controller in ages. 17:36:25 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 17:37:09 nyef: balrog and i are doing a bunch of work relating to it 17:37:38 mostly atm it involves repairing a unidisk 3.5 drive which we accidentally damaged a via the IWM connects to during repair/desoldering 17:37:50 it works but inconsistently 17:37:56 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:38:04 gonna use a patch wire 17:38:30 Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.13.155] has joined #lisp 17:38:42 btw, marginally related: does anyone here have a symbolics space cadet keyboard? I'm trying to find one to dump the i8741 on it (which is socketed in pictures i've seen) 17:39:18 I didn't really have any special information, and never got a working driver out of it. 17:40:00 :( 17:40:04 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.102.67.204] has joined #lisp 17:40:11 i think the IWM datasheet is now on bitsavers 17:40:23 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:41:31 Lord_N_Laptop: are you talking about the standard old-style keyboard? 17:41:58 the anicent one with super/hyper/meta/greek/front/etc keys 17:42:45 Lord_N_Laptop: show me a picture. i have old- and new-style symbolics keyboards, but the space cadet is something else. 17:43:27 http://www.talisman.org/~erlkonig/ergonomics/pictures/symbolics%5Espace-cadet-circuit-board.jpg 17:43:43 the i8748 in the top with the gob of black paint over the window is what i'm looking to borrow 17:44:15 the code for handling such a complex keyboard must be mindbogglingly complicated 17:44:28 and i'm interested in checking it out 17:45:41 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 17:47:26 gozek [~quassel@20.Red-88-12-183.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:24 Wow. I hadn't realized that there was a linux driver based on the work I had done to try and make a NetBSD driver for that drive. 17:49:38 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Client Quit] 17:50:12 Lord_N_Laptop: i don't have that one, but i have looked at the old-style symbolics keyboard a lot. it is actually just a very long shift register and a standard matrix scan thing. 17:50:28 Lord_N_Laptop: the shift register is not really realized, though. 17:50:51 ah 17:52:54 balrog [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has joined #lisp 17:53:45 H4ns: do you use it? 17:53:56 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@223-211-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:33 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:57:41 I want to spit out logs in a text file or in syslog. What do you use for that, cl-log, log4cl, log5 or logv? 17:58:39 i know what maxm- uses 17:59:34 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 18:02:29 c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.9.178] has joined #lisp 18:03:25 -!- ledai [~lda@177.Red-83-61-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ledai] 18:04:12 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.16.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:04:54 well I don't have syslog appender in log4cl 18:05:21 -!- dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has left #lisp 18:05:37 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 18:06:20 not sure if there any existing lib wrapping syslog writing? implementing appenders is as simple as making (defclass whatever-appender (stream-appender) ()) and then having (defmethod appender-stream ((a whatever-appender))) 18:07:25 antgreen [~user@70.50.67.25] has joined #lisp 18:08:42 maxm-: of course there is! 18:09:03 https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blobs/master/clisp/syslog.lisp 18:09:25 Otherwise, it's rather trivial to do with CFFI. 18:10:06 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA32474.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:13:17 michael_alex [~michael@nat10-222.cs.ucdavis.edu] has joined #lisp 18:13:34 I think it's funny how often 'trivial' is used on this channel :P 18:14:19 dekuked: yep. A meme transmitted by my math teacher. 18:15:19 dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 18:16:17 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 18:18:07 anybody have success using drakma with https? I'm having mysterious certificate issues. 18:18:08 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:18:10 BrianRice` [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:12 kmee [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 18:21:31 hello. given object how can i get it's class name as symbol? 18:21:55 (class-name (class-of instance)) 18:22:08 thanks 18:23:24 stassats`: no. i tried for a bit, but it is just too foreign 18:23:39 works. actually type-of works too 18:23:48 -!- Lord_N_Laptop [~LordNLpt2@unaffiliated/lordnlptp] has left #lisp 18:27:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:27:43 for standard-objects 18:27:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:28:02 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-178-143.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:28:29 as opposed to what kind of objects? 18:29:04 not standard-objects 18:29:30 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-178-143.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:29:50 kmee: just write the right thing and don't be limited to standard-objects! 18:30:15 kmee: you'll be happy to have followed my advice when you'll have to pass a non standard-object into your code. 18:30:53 i don't know what a non standard-object is 18:31:02 kmee: 1, for example 18:31:08 kmee: (typep 42 'standard-object) --> nil 18:31:24 (list (type-of 2) (class-name (class-of 2))) => ((INTEGER 0 4611686018427387903) FIXNUM) 18:31:37 as I said before. 18:31:43 standard-object is CLOS instance? 18:31:51 yes. 18:31:56 no 18:32:03 standard-object is an instance of standard-class 18:32:13 which is a CLOS instance. 18:32:22 standard-object is the superclass of all, well, standard objects. 18:33:00 pjb: there can be other classes 18:33:29 A dog is an animal. 18:37:44 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:55 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:37:59 pjb: there was no "a" in "standard-object is CLOS instance" 18:39:49 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:06 -!- c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.9.178] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:41:37 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:41:38 -!- antgreen [~user@70.50.67.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:41:51 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C64AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:10 can i somehow remove one print-object method without restarting image? 18:43:40 https://github.com/manuel/edgelisp <--- someone tried building CL-like lisp compiling to JS 18:44:13 isn't that what paredit does? 18:45:06 parenscript, paredit is something else 18:45:13 parenscript even 18:45:35 parenscript is more "a subset of CL" than "something like CL" isn't it? 18:46:00 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47:43 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 18:49:15 kmee SLIME makes it easy. type #'print-object in the repl, then C-c I * 18:49:19 jlongster [~user@pool-108-4-74-122.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:16 kennyd: and not C-c I #'print-object? 18:50:48 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-152-179.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:14 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.164] has joined #lisp 18:53:54 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-227-105.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:54:01 stassats` that works too :) 18:54:24 -!- tensorpudding_ is now known as tensorpudding 18:56:09 hagish [~hagish@p57BCF9FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:46 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:40 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C64AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:58:49 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:00:41 oGMo: BTW, i don't understand how it is possible to have a subset of CL be compiled to JS.. 1) different data types, 2) different keywords / special forms 19:01:18 how is it supposed to translate, say, a tagbody to JS, for example ? this looks like a nonsense 19:01:42 parenscript subset does not contain tagbody 19:02:16 parenscript translate small subset of cl 19:02:35 asvil: yeah, but my point is that Parenscript is conceptually wrong 19:02:37 egnarts-ms: you know about Mr. Turing? 19:03:13 stassats`: yeah, with his famous machine :) 19:03:22 mathrick [~mathrick@193.59.74.18] has joined #lisp 19:03:52 so then, do you know that you're saying makes no sense? 19:04:03 egnarts-ms: and his more famouse Universal machine! 19:04:39 Turing Machines are not interesting: they have a fixed program. Your wash machine is a Turing Machine. 19:04:46 egnarts-ms: may be. let lisp web developers to answer question 19:05:04 Universal Turing Machines are interesting: their fixed program actually interprets a program written on the tape! Just like our computers. 19:05:12 Apple would like to sell Turing Machines. 19:05:20 We programmers prefer to use Universal Turing Machines. 19:05:57 When Apple completes its objective of making only Turing Machines, it'll be finished as a computer company. 19:06:07 stassats`: i don't undertand you, but i admit you may be right about that 19:06:44 egnarts-ms: have you ever seen a cons cell in your x86 processor? 19:06:56 egnarts-ms: i'm saying that you can compile any language to any other language 19:06:59 egnarts-ms: how can you have cons cells if there's only words of bits in x86? 19:07:19 pjb: no. i assume they existed in Lisp machines, right ? 19:07:30 yes but your computer is not a lisp machine. 19:07:38 How can you run lisp on it? 19:07:45 ok, i got the point now 19:07:47 they did not, lisp machines had words of bits 19:08:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:08:36 i just wanted to say that the idea of Parenscript was probably to augment JS with macros 19:08:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:08:47 and they chose not the best way 19:08:50 egnarts-ms: yes, but not exactly. 19:08:52 (from my point of view) 19:09:03 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:09:05 egnarts-ms: the idea is that a lisp programmer wants to write sexps and indeed to write macros in lisp. 19:09:19 egnarts-ms: no matter what target code he's asked to produce. 19:09:28 the idea of parenscript is to let people who are afraid of writing code in ordinary javascript 19:09:41 egnarts-ms: there are a lot of similar system, to generate java, C, Cobol or whatever kind of code. 19:10:03 When you ask a lisper to write C code, he writes some sexps, and a lisp program to generate the C code from it. 19:10:15 egnarts-ms: best way is time machine to netscape office to let them to use common lisp instead of js. 19:10:21 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:10:35 and i just write C code 19:11:16 egnarts-ms: see for example http://paste.lisp.org/display/25134 19:11:26 stassats`: you're not a true lisp programmer. 19:11:53 wizdom [~wisdom@69.7.239.238] has joined #lisp 19:12:15 am i true Scotsman, though? 19:12:33 is true lisp programmer always on the top of programmings technoligies/languages/paradigms? 19:13:26 asvil: I'd say yes: http://vi.sualize.us/view/8147da63ea438088043ec3368d927bca/ 19:13:30 pjb: yeah, this is theoretically implementable and okay, but in practice it is not as good 19:14:04 egnarts-ms: In practice it's as good as you want. 19:14:08 pjb: for example, how would you map cons cells and all the Lisp function operating on Lists to JS ? 19:14:21 JS doesn't have something like a cons cell 19:14:30 what it has is arrays 19:14:45 it is possible to emulate cons cells with JS objects, for example 19:15:04 but you will never build a great Web application that way 19:15:11 egnarts-ms: Let me show you how you do it in Ruby: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/browse_frm/thread/1dac84654bb962e8/40ef140362b2b8ba?hl=en&q=cons+car+cdr+group:comp.lang.ruby+author:pascal+author:bourguignon#40ef140362b2b8ba 19:15:17 (though theoretically everything is fine) 19:15:54 egnarts-ms: why wouldn't you build a great web application that way? if you can run linux on js! http://bellard.org/jslinux/ 19:16:07 egnarts-ms: and this is quite practical, this jslinux. 19:16:10 It RUNS! 19:16:13 zfx [~zfx@host86-166-92-53.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:38 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:07 pjb: this picture I can see long time. One picture for every languages, but there is big sense in it. 19:18:26 language* 19:18:27 egnarts-ms: emacs runs on linux on jslinux on js; therefore you can cons cells on js! 19:19:01 slime inspector is pretty awesome. haven't used it much before 19:19:07 pjb: we're probably just miscommunicating.. in your pastebin example, there are forms like that: (-> this data) 19:19:20 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:19:50 pjb: what does it mean ? it is not Common Lisp expression in the sense that it can be evaluated like a Common Lisp form 19:19:59 * it cannot 19:20:13 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:20:14 egnarts-ms: it can perfectly be evaluated in common lisp, just write the macros or functions needed to run them! 19:20:16 this is rather a statement in C language written like s-exp 19:20:37 egnarts-ms: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/a827235ce7466a92 19:20:49 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 19:20:50 egnarts-ms: I think you've proven enough your ignorance for one day. 19:20:58 egnarts-ms: go study Common Lisp and come back later. 19:21:50 i've seen a -> macro before where (-> object foo bar) is expanded to (bar (foo object)) 19:21:56 egnarts-ms: -> means function for access to object "this" and "data" field of it. I think it can be expressed in common lisp sense. 19:22:40 for access "data" field of "this" object* 19:22:54 pjb: using slot-value rather than -> would be interesting too :) 19:23:04 egnarts-ms: if you knew a little Common Lisp, you could try to formulate real objections, but you knew more Common Lisp, you'd realize they're mute too. 19:23:08 -!- balrog [~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog] has left #lisp 19:23:22 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@201.53.12.75] has joined #lisp 19:23:37 dim: indeed, you're just one function/macro layer closer to CL/away from C :-) 19:25:24 -!- DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@184.99.7.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:26:30 asvil: i know what -> means in C.. but the expression (-> a b) is impossible to make perform the same thing in CL as it performs in pure C 19:26:40 But, pjb, do you know success business stories with code generators? I mean that code generators make programs more complex. 19:26:55 egnarts-ms: perhaps impossible for you. Not impossible for a programmer. 19:27:00 egnarts-ms: no 19:27:01 -!- bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:27:02 egnarts-ms: remember, programmers are sorcerers. 19:27:15 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:27:39 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 19:28:31 a bit is a bit 19:28:39 pjb: why are you so angry with me ? did i hurt you by denying something you believed in ? 19:28:54 egnarts-ms: in particular, cl has "setfable" places. It means that you can write something like: (setf (-> this data) 123). And you can read it (+ 1 (-> this data)). 19:28:59 -> is all about accessing a structure's member, there's this passed by reference detail thing that you might or might not care about though 19:29:02 egnarts-ms: Ok, I don't want to sound harsh. Sorry. 19:29:16 egnarts-ms: but you're saying things are not possible when they're very possible and done everyday. 19:29:34 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 19:29:34 egnarts-ms: you're clearly lacking some fundamental knowledge that has been discovered almost a century ago. 19:29:44 egnarts-ms: what age are you? 2 yo? What are you learning at school? 19:29:55 egnarts-ms: ask for a reimbursment! You're education is lacking! 19:30:32 asvil even (-> this data (+ 1)) worked in the macro I stumbled upon to. it emulates -> from clojure 19:30:45 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-152-179.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:30:58 expanding to (+ 1 (data this)) 19:30:58 pjb: look, in C you just have a pointer, say, named p pointing to some location in memory 19:31:12 egnarts-ms: and know you're proving you don't even know C. 19:31:19 DDR [~chatzilla@d142-179-78-231.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:20 obvious troll is obvious. 19:31:28 egnarts-ms: have a look at http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/TI/Explorer/zeta-c/ 19:34:36 pjb: well, maybe you're right and i'm just not well versed in both Common Lisp and C 19:34:49 egnarts-ms: in any case, it's the occasion for you to get a nice ahah! moment. Learn about Universal Turing Machines, and Turing Equivalence, and the equivalence between Universal Turing Machines and Lambda Calculus. 19:34:53 -!- kmee [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: bye] 19:35:16 egnarts-ms: they you may have a more technical look at compilers. 19:35:29 ie. how to design compilers. Parsers, code generation, etc. 19:36:31 pjb: you have such a poor opinion about me which is based upon a couple of sayings from my behalf.. what do you suppose me doing in "lisp" IRC chat, if i'm so damnedly stupid ? 19:36:51 pjb: does CL attract the worst programmers ? :) 19:36:59 I don't know but so far you only have said things that are false. 19:38:15 i have said things that you haven't understood in the intended sense.. probably my fault is that i cannot formulate thoughts in a good way 19:38:31 can you take it someplace else? i'm not interested in your squabbles 19:38:36 ok, sorry for that 19:39:09 i'm just also dreaming about a thing like Parenscript 19:39:29 ok. So do you have any precise question or problem? 19:39:55 no, i don't 19:40:01 :-) 19:40:14 sacho [~sacho@95-42-65-144.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 19:40:29 egnarts-ms: Then maybe you can lurk here to help others :) 19:41:34 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 19:42:45 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@201.53.12.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:42:45 naryl: you know, it seems that the biggest problem with Lisp folks is that we're too intolerable for things we consider to be wrong. Sometimes those things are actually wrong, though. 19:42:50 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:43:09 egnarts-ms: this is a technical channel. 19:43:18 egnarts-ms: for small talk you should try #lispcafe. 19:43:28 on a technical channel, precision is important. 19:43:49 -!- gozek [~quassel@20.Red-88-12-183.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:44:52 In #lispcafe, it's assumed you have a few beers, so if you say something inconsistent, nobody will be offended. 19:44:55 DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@184.99.7.19] has joined #lisp 19:46:15 I've never seen anyone say anything in #lispcafe, beers or no beers. 19:46:42 That's the problem. 19:46:47 #lispgames if pretty laid back, though 19:46:50 *is 19:46:54 There's not enough publicity for #lispcafe. Most newbies should go there first. 19:47:14 if only #cl wasn't taken by Chileans :) 19:47:18 pjb 19:47:23 Symbolics Ada, a version of Ada written in Lisp. 19:47:24 wow. 19:47:24 why are you such an asshole to pple on here? 19:47:51 leku: I explained above. This is a technical channel. Try me in #lispcafe. 19:48:11 there is nothing wrong with small talk here 19:48:13 pretty sure he was being technical 19:48:14 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-119-76.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:17 and asking technical things 19:48:18 and pjb, you were a big jerk to me yesterday. 19:48:33 maybe not everyone has quite the command of the language or languages as you 19:48:37 but that doesn't mean you have to be an asshole to them 19:48:42 pmetzger: apparently it served its purpose, you eventually came back with a real question. 19:48:44 actually, there is a problem with small talk here. freenode explicitly wants topical channels to stay on topic 19:48:53 leku: you're off-topic 19:48:56 hah 19:49:02 ok sorry 19:49:47 *dlowe* makes a #clnoobs channel 19:49:51 *leku* joins 19:50:59 how many pple are in this channel? i can't tell 19:51:12 looks like a few hundred 19:51:22 yes, between 300 and 400. 19:52:52 pjb: no, you're an unfriendly, unpersonable individual and have little sense of how to deal properly with other humans from what I can tell. 19:53:02 loool 19:53:04 pjb: that's of course your business. 19:53:06 pmetzger: this is not on topic! 19:53:21 pjb: the fact that you're unpleasant and unreasonable? 19:53:21 pmetzger: I meat pjb IRL, I can assure you that's false 19:53:25 an now knock it off 19:53:33 *met 19:53:43 :D 19:53:43 i don't understand why pple have attitudes like this on IRC 19:53:53 pjb was quite unreasonable to me yesterday. repeatedly. 19:54:02 BBShortcut [~user@mar92-5-82-225-147-167.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:02 this kind of shit was typical of EFnet in the 90s , surprised to see it on Freenode in 2012 19:54:23 -!- jdz [~jdz@host167-111-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 19:54:31 I try to be friendly to strangers, following the "be liberal in what you hear, conservative in what you say" type of attitude. 19:54:40 I came in asking a question and he did his best to be cruel to me. 19:54:45 I don't think that's reasonable behavior. 19:54:56 the world has enough problems without creating new ones. 19:55:00 agreed 19:55:02 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix 19:55:07 no one would behave like this in person 19:55:15 but they think they can be king shit on IRC 19:55:24 pmetzger, leku: please stop 19:55:25 here we go gonna be banned now 19:55:59 fine, I'll stop, but being mean to people sucks. people should be friendly to other people and not unnecessarily impolite. 19:56:18 if someone asks a question, the appropriate thing to do is to help them, not to do things like tell them to message a chatbot (which is what pjb did to me yesterday) 19:56:20 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Kryztof 19:56:23 -!- Kryztof has set mode +b *!~pmetzger@166.84.161.166 19:56:29 lol 19:56:38 -!- Kryztof has set mode +b *!~mjf@shell.dhp.com 19:56:52 which part of "please stop" is difficult for people? Honestly. 19:57:07 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o fe[nl]ix 19:58:24 -!- leku [~mjf@shell.dhp.com] has left #lisp 20:00:00 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:01:01 -!- pmetzger [~pmetzger@166.84.161.166] has left #lisp 20:02:14 -!- wizdom [~wisdom@69.7.239.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:02:23 hi, how can I see which part of my program is generating memory leak? or maybe which variable (list, hashmap) is growing uncontrollably? 20:02:32 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@223-211-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:02:33 I am using sbcl and I constantly end up with "game over" 20:02:35 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 20:02:39 puchacz: you can try profiling 20:02:43 heap exhausted, welcome to ldb 20:02:52 statistical profiler, for instance 20:02:54 profiling as per sbcl manual? 20:03:07 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.66.141] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 20:03:19 in slime, enable slime-sprof contrib and M-x slime-sprof-start-alloc 20:03:42 and then M-x slime-sprof-report afterwards 20:03:49 before you blow your heap, of course 20:03:51 before I crash into ldb? 20:03:55 y :) 20:03:57 thanks 20:04:55 and the default heap size changed in sbcl, you should try increasing it 20:05:08 accordingly to your available memory 20:05:15 -!- BBShortcut [~user@mar92-5-82-225-147-167.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:01 stassats: thanks, I see new sbcl command line options 20:06:19 --dynamic-space-size and control-stack-size 20:06:26 -!- Kryztof has set mode -b *!~mjf@shell.dhp.com 20:06:40 they're not new 20:07:23 ok 20:07:24 unless your previous sbcl version was 6 years old 20:07:36 maybe I looked there 6 years ago 20:08:53 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-65-144.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:09:15 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:09:24 sacho [~sacho@95-42-65-144.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 20:09:38 puchacz: portably, you can walk the data accessible from all the symbols. But you may not be able to reach data hidden in procedure or closures. Implementation specific, implementations sometimes provide heap walkers. 20:09:51 puchacz: you can also use ROOM before and after sections and see where it increases. 20:10:14 pjb: I know about room, but it only shows totals, not individual variables.... 20:10:23 pjb: does sbcl provide walkers? 20:10:33 puchacz: but (room t) can help because it gives details per type. 20:10:35 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-71-10.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:10:38 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-71-10.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:10:38 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-22-152.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 20:10:40 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-22-152.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 20:10:50 pjb: oh, (room t) I did not know 20:10:59 (shame I have almost all in conses, no clos) 20:13:41 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:13:46 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:15:06 I typically start out using conses and then move things to objects when it gets unwieldy 20:15:11 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 20:15:37 dlowe: but that shouldn't fill the memory. Only if you keep pushing onto a list somewhere. 20:15:51 Or if you're copying a circular list. 20:16:00 sure, I was saying it wasn't a shame necessarily 20:16:07 to use a bunch of conses instead of objects 20:19:04 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:19:32 who is running cliki? 20:19:56 nslookup -query=soa cliki.net 20:20:02 whois cliki.net 20:20:19 snearch [~snearch@f053000081.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:20:30 drewc it seems. 20:20:37 that is not guaranteed to be useful or accurate, but thanks anyway 20:21:12 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-178-143.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:22:38 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-178-143.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:22:42 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@193.59.74.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:25:36 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:25:59 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-098-024-165-246.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:26:39 wizdom [~wisdom@69.7.239.238] has joined #lisp 20:26:57 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:08 francogrex [~user@109.130.14.176] has joined #lisp 20:28:34 mathrick [~mathrick@193.59.74.18] has joined #lisp 20:29:10 cliki runs on its own 20:30:03 In a sense it actually does. Drewc mentioned that he hadn't touched it in years. 20:31:20 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 20:32:19 mathrick_ [~mathrick@193.59.74.18] has joined #lisp 20:32:24 mgile_ [~mgile@c-75-71-186-157.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:42 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@193.59.74.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:34:18 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Quit: cpc26] 20:36:08 -!- mgile [~mgile@c-75-71-186-157.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:36:08 -!- mgile_ is now known as mgile 20:37:29 lisp reliability! 20:37:32 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:38:00 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:38:38 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 20:45:24 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:51:57 BBShortcut [~user@mar92-5-82-225-147-167.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:12 pnq [~nick@AC82D8F0.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:53:47 Bike [~Glossina@63-230-161-149.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:27 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:55:31 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:58:04 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:02:12 *francogrex* is ecstatic! after all the hoops he had to jump through to install aarmcl on his android, he finally gets: 'CPU doesn't support required features' ! 21:03:13 francogrex: I don't know this aarmcl implementation. Link? 21:03:32 francogrex: otherwise, if it's ccl, you should have said so we could have told you that it only does arm7, not arm6. 21:04:34 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:05:10 nepnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:05:28 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:06:31 -!- wizdom [~wisdom@69.7.239.238] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:07:05 pjb: What about arm8? 21:07:30 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:08:08 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:53 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:16 francogrex: here's a dime, buy yourself a real phone 21:10:40 francogrex: you shouldn't stop on that and get ecl 21:10:44 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@63.130.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:10:51 naryl: I don't know. 21:10:58 Perhaps it's forward compatible? 21:11:00 pjb: yes ccl 21:11:27 stassats: I will try ecl; it's a pity that phone "samsung" is rubbish 21:11:43 how can I know which arm version it is? 21:12:19 Perhaps it's written on the chip. 21:12:21 i have a phone "samsung" which runs ccl just fine 21:12:41 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-156-171.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:47 francogrex: google for arm version identification. 21:13:15 Harder will be to make manufacturer confess what part they used. 21:13:41 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:00 how about cat /proc/cpuinfo? 21:14:02 -!- dekuked [~user@mail.kesnermorrissey.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:14:05 busybox uname -a >> Linux localhost 2.6.35.7 #1 PREEMPT Tue Sep 27 15:10:11 KST 2011 armv6l GNU/Linux 21:14:22 pjb: Sorry, I lied :) Cortex-A8 is ARMv7. Good news. 21:14:36 it's 6, this sucks 21:14:49 stassats: send me that dime now 21:15:00 pay nyef to port SBCL to ARMv6 21:15:14 pay gary to port ccl to ARMv6 21:15:21 that would be good. 21:16:02 well sbcl would be a good idea, instead of ccl going a step back on the android 21:16:17 why do you have such wild conclusions? 21:16:35 sbcl is not yet on android, ccl is 21:16:58 ccl has no official android arm port at all, so all bets are off 21:17:43 next time buy a phone with a more modern cpu 21:17:53 Sorry, my bulk time has already been purchased for the foreseeable future. If I do any SBCL port work, it'll be odd stuff that I can do in my spare time, like fixing up the MIPS backend a bit. 21:18:19 nyef: what if somebody made an offer you can't refuse? 21:18:29 I will try ecl then, I need the NDK to build 21:18:33 I'm very good at refusing offers. d-: 21:18:43 offer he can't refuse sounds like Don Corleone 21:18:56 I could receive an offer to work on it in two months. 21:19:06 to start working on it then, I mean. 21:20:02 how much, I can contribute if you set up a project 21:20:16 mathrick [~mathrick@193.59.74.18] has joined #lisp 21:20:19 If someone IS going to try to do an arm port for SBCL, I'd advise reading my port log, going over my git tree, and then taking the approach of disabling the bits of IR2TRAN that don't compile, rather than dummying in VOPs until it does compile. 21:20:52 And, please, do the partitioned register set thing, not the conservative collector thing. 21:20:54 minion: arm port log? 21:20:55 arm port log: http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-arm/port-log.txt 21:21:24 ... I probably should update that, I think my local copy has an extra entry or two that that one doesn't. 21:23:01 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@193.59.74.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:23:17 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@31.163.216.167] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 21:23:20 ... does that include mention of the XC test suite thing I did, or was that for a different project? 21:24:45 you've gone a good way on the port already 21:24:47 Hrm. There's a brief mention of the approach towards the end of the 2009-May-19 entry, but the actual implementation must have been in a different project. 21:24:59 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:25:07 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:25:23 Unfortunately, I recently bricked my original target hardware, and have been unable to source the file I need in order to unbrick it. /-: 21:25:40 -!- zfx [~zfx@host86-166-92-53.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:29:12 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 21:29:44 sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-65-144.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 21:30:10 -!- djanatyn [~user@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:31:38 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.14.176] has quit [Quit: Duty calls! See you guys later.] 21:33:15 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-65-144.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:33:29 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.94.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:35:20 -!- mgile [~mgile@c-75-71-186-157.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:35 mgile [~mgile@c-75-71-186-157.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:58 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Quit: francisl] 21:38:30 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-hudd6-0-0-cust741.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:39:25 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has joined #lisp 21:42:12 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@193.59.74.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:42:16 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128085110.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:44:56 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:42 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:46:06 Actually, http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git/commitdiff/95d6986e5e96415edbd6839824d99988c5814840 might be interesting reading for someone considering writing a new SBCL backend. 21:47:02 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:52:18 sykopomp: fwiw, the profile you pasted isn't spending time in cancel-finalization per se, but in the clean up around that code. I'll wager it's all the deferred interrupt handling at the end of cancel-finalization (well, with-system-mutex/without-gcing). 21:54:56 pkhuong: what was the issue with finalizers again ? 21:55:26 fe[nl]ix: lots of time spent cancelling finalizers for iolib (?) socket objects. 21:56:20 -!- Guest76020 is now known as xristos 21:57:16 so I should not cancel finalizers, but use some flag ? 21:57:36 fe[nl]ix: if it's normal to cancel finalizers, probably. 21:59:03 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:10 yes, normally users should call cl:close 22:00:24 which cancels the finalizer 22:00:44 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:01:29 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:02:03 you can mark it deleted, so finalizer won't close it twice 22:02:10 I'm inclined to fix improve the complexity of cancel-finalization, but it'll still be a locked bottleneck. 22:02:25 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:03:16 ie (defun close (obj) (with-slots (socket) obj (and (/= -1 socket) (close-fd socket)))) 22:03:28 and finalizer closes and makes socket -1 22:03:45 maxm-: ... the finalizer for the object with the slot socket? 22:03:46 well actually you need to have socket in a sub-object, coz you can't hold a ref to obj itself 22:03:48 Yes, great plan. 22:04:14 *maxm-* does not get, whats wrong with my plan? 22:04:18 it will work 22:04:25 the finalizer must not reference the object to be finalized 22:04:49 ah yea, you have to put it into sub-object and close over variable holding sub-object 22:04:57 but that's a PITA 22:05:25 you can probably even use a cons.. (cons socket-or-stream . closed-flag) 22:05:35 fe[nl]ix: yeah, having a read-only state slot that points to a cons is a bit of a pain. 22:05:37 pkhuong: can't we get ghost references, or what was is that the JVM calls that ? 22:05:47 fe[nl]ix: weak references? 22:06:03 nope, there was one more type of reference 22:07:00 Phantom references 22:07:09 Oh, the magic finalize-only reference that can't be used to resurrect objects? Sounds like a great way to introduce bugs. If we go in that direction, might as well have finalizers run with the single first-class reference to the finalized object. 22:07:11 strong, soft, weak and phantom 22:08:09 like this (defun make-obj (let* ((resource (cons fd nil)) (obj (make-instance 'whatever :resource resource))) (finalize obj (lambda () (unless (cdr resource) (release-resource (car resource)) (setf (cdr resource t))))))) 22:08:16 and the close function do same thing 22:08:51 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053000081.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:09:48 maxm-: that's what we've been talking about over the last ~3 days. 22:09:50 *maxm-* should have thought of this before he did whole shared-ptr hashtable thing maybe... But on the other hand, I can now do stuff (when (eq order stop-order) ..) 22:10:38 pkhuong: ah so you already told him to use that? could have been seeing it in strollback what got me thinking about it too 22:11:57 generally, if you envision thousands of FD's, each with their own callback, you can't make a new callback for each 22:12:49 well I'm making assumption here that you trying to go for automatic GC... 22:12:55 of C side objects 22:13:37 I think I'll just eliminate finalizers 22:14:15 maxm-: there is at best a weak relationship between memory and fd usage. Finalizers can only be a last resort. 22:17:33 *maxm-* had a different thing in mind, as in creating alien callback for each fd 22:17:55 why would you do that? 22:18:15 done 22:18:16 I had a similar (in amount of callbacks) situation, where I allowed attaching callbacks to simulated broker orders, and backtesting a strategy creates a lot of orders 22:18:32 ... A separate alien callback for each fd? Do you have any idea how horrifying that idea is? 22:18:47 so I rewrote it to just have 1 generic callback for each class of callbacks 22:18:55 (Well, separate alien callback function per fd.) 22:19:09 well just ensuring that fe[nl]ix not thinking along same lines as I initially did :-) saving him time 22:19:14 yeah... foreign callbacks can't be GCed, and are stored in a special non-moving space. You'll quickly get a crash if the callback doesn't do the equivalent of finding the appropriate closure and funcalling it. 22:19:51 maxm-: the foreign objects are fds, *int* values. 22:19:52 someone implementing "handlers for FD's" in a straight-forward manner with cffi, may not realise the problem 22:20:25 well actually in this case can just have 65565 element vector I guess 22:20:44 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 22:21:22 *maxm-* stops talking before he confuses anyone or himself even more 22:24:10 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:24:14 Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:37 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:50 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 22:25:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:26:07 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:28:10 cruxeternus [crux@secspeed.com] has joined #lisp 22:28:51 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.227.117] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:29:19 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 22:34:29 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has left #lisp 22:34:40 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:49 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 22:35:32 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:35:51 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:37:01 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:28 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-193-187.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:38:55 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@63.130.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 22:40:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:40:33 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:41:14 ur5us_ [~ur5us@210.193.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 22:41:14 ur5us [~ur5us@210.193.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 22:43:48 -!- |42|`` is now known as |42| 22:45:48 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:46:49 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:49:32 -!- hagish [~hagish@p57BCF9FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:51:19 VieiraN [~VieiraN@177.68.152.157] has joined #lisp 22:55:11 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@177.68.152.157] has quit [Client Quit] 22:55:15 VieiraN [~VieiraN@177.103.136.5] has joined #lisp 23:02:11 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 23:04:51 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:14:40 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:15:08 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:15:34 -!- mgile [~mgile@c-75-71-186-157.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:16:24 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 23:20:53 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:30:38 peterhil` [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 23:30:54 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:36 -!- xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:32:01 -!- ur5us_ [~ur5us@210.193.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:32:01 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@210.193.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:33:46 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@Lark.price.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 23:34:15 -!- ashish [lostcase@freebsd/developer/ashish] has quit [Quit: Whenever we are together, it's always estatically palpitating!] 23:36:12 -!- graspee [~graspee@02dd1c10.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: time for bed] 23:37:18 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 23:37:24 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:39:12 ashish [lostcase@freebsd/developer/ashish] has joined #lisp 23:39:56 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-178-143.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:41:01 fe[nl]ix: It's iolib socket objects, but the slowdown doesn't happen when I use iomux. 23:41:42 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:12 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:42:49 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 23:42:55 pkhuong: thanks for looking at it. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the deferred handling, but I'll stare at it at some point and see if I can make sense of it. :) 23:44:48 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-156-171.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:51:21 sykopomp: doesn't matter, finalizers are no more 23:54:29 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:13 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:23 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:58:29 -!- Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:58:59 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 23:59:05 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.167.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]