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[~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 05:25:59 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:26:58 BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has joined #lisp 05:27:47 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-148-224.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:33:31 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-5-217.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:34:05 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:38:14 -!- antifuchs [foobar@care.boinkor.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:38:55 antifuchs [foobar@care.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:05 Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:41 (defun ()_ (x) ..... 05:46:50 -!- permanente [~profmakx@2a01:4f8:150:3181:2::20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:46:56 malaparte: sure. 05:47:19 malaparte: more fun, using a right-to-left language :-) 05:47:29 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:35 *malaparte* runs away 05:48:28 <|3b|> need to escape the () in the name though, or use some other character that looks similar 05:52:07 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:52:45 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:53:11 permanente [~profmakx@2a01:4f8:150:3181:2::20] has joined #lisp 05:53:51 (defun \(\)_ (x) ..... 05:54:21 Hmmm. #lisp is not my REPL! 05:54:38 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.39.207] has joined #lisp 05:55:06 "Coding system iso-latin-1-unix not suitable" 05:55:06 or |()_| 05:57:03 jack_rabbit [~kyle@arh2050.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 05:57:23 I am having trouble deleting the first item from a list. It seems to do nothing. 05:57:25 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:57:54 <|3b|> you probably ignored the return value of whatever you used to remove it from the list 05:58:01 jack_rabbit in lisp there are no side effects 05:58:11 <|3b|> malaparte: sure there are 05:58:14 *malaparte* is a newbie, not sure if this is correct 05:58:18 yeah there you go 05:58:21 <|3b|> they just might not happen to what you expecte them to 05:58:22 I'm using the delete function, which is supposed to be destructive modification. 05:58:33 jack_rabbit: no. 05:58:47 jack_rabbit: it's not _supposed_ to be destructive, it's _allowed_ to be destructive. 05:58:48 BlankVerse [~pankajm@p9225-ipngn100206daianjibetu.nara.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:58:53 <|3b|> destructive doesn't mean it modifies bindings 05:58:59 okay. 05:59:03 And being destructive doesn't mean it does anything meaningful with the cons cells of the list either. 05:59:16 -!- clintm [~clintm@c-71-197-178-162.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: clintm] 05:59:24 That's what I figure. My binding still points to the first element, right? 05:59:41 (maplist (lambda (c) (setf (cdr c) nil)) list) could be part of delete and still be conforming, IIRC. 05:59:52 jack_rabbit: yes, that's the problem you have. 06:00:10 The list without the deleted element is the result of the delete function. You must use it. 06:00:29 so how can I go about doing something like this? should I just setf my variable to the new list? 06:00:43 Yes. 06:00:50 (setf list (delete item list)). 06:00:51 cool. Let me try that real quick. 06:02:15 I'm worried about copying these lists, though, as they may be huge. 06:02:35 are the items eq to the old ones? 06:02:49 jack_rabbit: maybe lists are not the right data structure for your application? 06:02:59 *|3b|* wouldn't expect much copying from DELETE 06:03:18 jack_rabbit: most implementations will try to optimize things out, so (setf list (delete item list)) won't copy anything. 06:03:45 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 06:03:46 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 06:03:46 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 06:03:50 If you find an implementation that copies and if that's a problem, you can always implement your own non-copying delete. 06:03:51 clintm [~clintm@c-71-197-178-162.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:03 What type of data-structure should I be using? I'm modeling a simple SQL-ish server. 06:04:04 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:34 <|3b|> depends on what operations you want, and what you want to optimize for 06:04:51 *|3b|* personally would pick 'an sql server' as the data structure for that :p 06:04:56 I obviously understand that the inner-workings of an actual SQL implementation are way more complicated than what I can probably hack together. 06:04:57 <|3b|> (or sqlite or something) 06:05:15 Right. This project is only for the fun of putting together a simple SQL server. 06:05:27 <|3b|> or a hash table for something really simple 06:05:54 jack_rabbit: you could use arrays if you plan random access to tables. 06:06:10 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:06:16 what do you mean by "random access?" 06:06:34 <|3b|> "huge list" and "sql-ish" sounds like a bad combination though, linear searches through long lists tends to not be a good idea 06:06:39 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-uajktckxqcsmexxb] has joined #lisp 06:07:06 jack_rabbit: if you want to be able to quickly access any arbitrary row in a table by its index 06:07:11 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 06:07:19 I'm not as concerned about searching. I may at some point try to implement sorting for binary searches, but as of now, that's not a concern. 06:07:34 jack_rabbit: if you don't want to do that (i.e. if your indexes hold references to the rows), then there is nothing wrong to use a list to represent the table extent 06:07:49 A vector. 06:08:02 H4ns: how are arrays represented in memory? like C arrays? 06:08:07 So row ids can be the index of the row in the vector. 06:08:12 jack_rabbit: that is implementation dependent 06:08:26 jack_rabbit: but they give you constant random access time. 06:09:00 Makes sense. 06:09:26 *|3b|* would expect something resembling a C array as part of a lisp array though (they need a bit more since they probably have dimensions and type information along with the contents) 06:09:40 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-217.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:09:44 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:09:47 I would think they'd have to be pointer arrays for constant access time. 06:10:08 C-like pointer arrays, that is. 06:10:30 setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:10:35 |3b|: struct { typeinfo array_type; sizes...} ;) 06:10:41 jack_rabbit: "constant" is not really true anyway, but with an array, accessing any element is cheap. with a list, the whole list needs to be traversed to access the last element. 06:10:54 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 06:11:32 right. they're linked lists, so dereferencing the "next" pointer in each cons cell is required. 06:11:35 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 06:11:54 I would think that this would be pretty cheap on modern processors, though, which are designed for fast dereferencing. 06:12:03 Unless you have hundreds of thousands of rows. 06:12:20 <|3b|> cheap per element is still O(n) 06:12:20 jack_rabbit: nowadays, RAM is hundred if not thousands of time slower than the processor! 06:12:38 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:58 jack_rabbit: so it's much better to multiply indices than to walk thru a in-memory list. 06:12:59 pjb: good point. 06:13:27 jack_rabbit: with a simple sql implementation, you don't need random access to table rows by their index, so you're good with lisps. 06:13:30 lists 06:14:01 jack_rabbit: an SQL database would more likely look like a tree of chunks 06:14:13 where chunks are "arrays" 06:14:22 Is it possible to do a binary search on a linked-list? 06:14:40 jack_rabbit: yes. 06:14:44 jack_rabbit: no. you'd have to implement an index for that. 06:14:50 you can make a tree out of cons cells 06:14:58 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.39.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:14:58 jack_rabbit: (it is possible, but slow) 06:15:10 jack_rabbit: take all the odd cells on one hand and all the even cells on the other hand. 06:15:14 And repeat recursively :-) 06:15:19 H4ns: right, Would it even be faster than a linear search? 06:15:23 <|3b|> binary search on a list would involve a linear search to find the middle 06:15:31 jack_rabbit: it wouldn't. 06:15:32 <|3b|> unless you have a connection machine or something 06:15:34 jack_rabbit: depends on the test function, but it is not likely. 06:15:48 Use a skip-list. 06:16:19 What about a complimentary array of "pointers" to the cons cells? 06:16:29 Seems sloppy I guess. 06:16:31 jack_rabbit: why the list then? 06:16:36 Right. 06:18:36 How nasty would it be to convert my current code to use arrays? 06:18:59 jack_rabbit: we don't know your code, so how would we know? 06:19:25 jack_rabbit: why do you want to switch to arrays? it seems that you can have loads of fun with lists, or is there a problem? 06:19:37 jack_rabbit: if it's nasty to change a data structure then it means your code is not well structured. 06:19:40 H4ns: I guess I should have phrased it as: how compatible are functions that manipulate lists with arrays 06:19:44 Scrap it and rewrite it with more abstraction! 06:20:00 jack_rabbit: both lists and vectors are sequences. 06:20:03 jack_rabbit: they're different, but there are similarities. 06:20:45 I agree with the fact that if it's difficult to change a component of a program (especially in lisp), it's probably poorly written 06:21:20 I'm doing this to practice my lisp, and have re-written parts of this program several times, making improvements. 06:21:41 (I'm very new to lisp, and it's conventions) 06:22:49 Anyway, thanks. I'm off. 06:25:29 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@178-55-57-180.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:27:07 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@arh2050.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:28:04 nikodemus [~nikodemus@178-55-57-180.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:30:27 -!- BitRunes [~ghost@2001:da8:d800:101:216:d3ff:feae:1b91] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:32:10 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@178-55-57-180.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 06:32:37 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:34:35 -!- clintm [~clintm@c-71-197-178-162.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: clintm] 06:35:03 -!- dfox_ [~dfox@rei.ipv6.dfox.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:39:35 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 06:40:59 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:47:02 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 06:48:18 -!- pnq1 [~nick@AC8CFC0C.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:51:52 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:58:16 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has joined #lisp 06:59:37 eni [~eni@31.171.153.13] has joined #lisp 07:01:35 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:08:13 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.149.50] has joined #lisp 07:09:46 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:11:30 cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 07:16:45 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@108.87.21.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:17:14 -!- permanente [~profmakx@2a01:4f8:150:3181:2::20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:20:11 -!- alvis` [~user@tx-184-6-180-2.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:23:33 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.166.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:23:34 profmakx [~profmakx@2a01:4f8:150:3181:2::20] has joined #lisp 07:24:00 -!- profmakx is now known as Guest15697 07:24:06 BitRunes [~ghost@2001:da8:d800:101:216:d3ff:feae:1b91] has joined #lisp 07:24:48 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.213.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 07:25:09 -!- gko [~gko@220.228.255.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:26:35 ferada [~ferada@dslb-094-219-157-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:25 kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 07:27:58 ur5us [~ur5us@210.193.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 07:30:34 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:31:00 -!- Guest15697 [~profmakx@2a01:4f8:150:3181:2::20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:31:33 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176173836.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 07:32:04 permanente [~profmakx@2a01:4f8:150:3181:2::20] has joined #lisp 07:32:23 -!- kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:32:43 SoleSoul [50b2a0e7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.178.160.231] has joined #lisp 07:33:20 Hi. I don't want to start a flame war but I want to know the Lisp family of languages. Which dialect should I look into first? 07:33:36 SoleSoul: Common Lisp 07:34:07 SoleSoul: well, this channel is about Common Lisp. So we are rather biased. 07:34:21 I'm asking because people say that scheme is more "pure" or something and better represents the special aspects of list 07:34:22 *p 07:34:39 SoleSoul: people say arbitrary things 07:34:43 oh, sorry, I thought that "lisp" is all of them 07:35:08 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 07:35:19 SoleSoul: Scheme has more "academic" bent. Common Lisp grew out of trying to standardize several commercially used dialects, and tends to be more oriented toward practical application 07:35:32 (at least without considering unportable code) 07:35:56 minion: advice on portable? 07:35:56 #12017: It doesn't need to be portable, it just needs to work on your system. 07:36:23 true 07:36:39 but Scheme's level of unportability was what drove me towards common lisp :) 07:36:55 ok. So, if common lisp is good enough for a newcomer, can you point me to a recommended compiler and ide? 07:37:09 on linux, sbcl and slime 07:37:11 SoleSoul: what platform? 07:37:28 I'm using linux and windows 07:37:41 SoleSoul: http://mohiji.nfshost.com/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/ 07:37:51 SoleSoul: http://mohiji.nfshost.com/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-windows/ 07:37:53 SoleSoul: for Linux, Emacs + SBCL + SLIME (a mode for Emacs) + Quicklisp 07:38:04 minion: faq? 07:38:04 faq: Nikodemus' CL FAQ: http://random-state.net/files/nikodemus-cl-faq.html 07:38:23 SoleSoul: http://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/  I'm having some success with this on windows. 07:38:31 looks good. So I have to learn emacs? :) has the time come? inevitable? 07:38:37 SoleSoul: yes. 07:38:57 SoleSoul: the amount needed to use SLIME for basic stuff isn't that big :) 07:39:16 SoleSoul: having mastered emacs is a skill that you'll find useful in many occasions, even if you don't use common lisp later. 07:39:18 SoleSoul: This is an integrated package, just run the .bat file and you land in Emacs with slime started for you. 07:40:00 ah, thanks antoszka. It would help start on windows. 07:40:44 ok, I got the picture. may I ask, why steel bank of all the others? it seems like there is a consensus... 07:40:55 it's fast 07:41:08 SoleSoul: there is no consensus, it is just most popular here. 07:41:48 SoleSoul: i also like to use ccl, and even allegro and clisp from time to time. 07:41:57 I still prefer ccl 07:42:02 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:43:07 loke [~elias@69.175.115.115] has joined #lisp 07:43:12 I have all I need in order to begin, I think. Regarding a book to learn from, I've read stuff about lisp for hours, and I found this book: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ would you recommend it for me? 07:43:24 yes 07:43:42 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 07:43:51 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-6-83.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:43:51 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-6-83.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:43:52 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:44:06 SoleSoul: see http://random-state.net/files/nikodemus-cl-faq.html 07:44:08 SoleSoul: it is recommended if you've been a programmer before and maybe know some object oriented programming already 07:44:15 SoleSoul: www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/  that could be another one worth looking at (depending on your expertise) 07:45:05 SoleSoul: you may find it pretty basic at first, but it describes some important lisp notions pretty clearly. 07:45:18 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-114.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:46:45 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:47:31 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:47:31 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:47:51 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 07:51:20 I know C++, some assembly and Haskell, and bits and pieces from ruby, python, C#, Java, Smalltalk. It is all so interesting! Which book then? 07:51:35 pcl 07:51:49 -!- loke [~elias@69.175.115.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:51:58 Ok thanks! 07:52:46 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: [ Close the World, Open the nExt ]] 07:53:20 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-zxwlznsceqmebvyd] has joined #lisp 07:53:41 Thank you everyone. I may be back in a month or so after play with Lisp (or probably a lot sooner when I have questions) goodbye. 07:54:17 -!- SoleSoul [50b2a0e7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.178.160.231] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:55:01 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pad-sh-1.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:56:36 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 07:57:34 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:57:38 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-114.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 251 seconds] 07:59:58 -!- permanente [~profmakx@2a01:4f8:150:3181:2::20] has quit [Changing host] 07:59:58 permanente [~profmakx@unaffiliated/profmakx] has joined #lisp 08:00:09 -!- permanente is now known as profmakx 08:01:49 eni [~eni@31.171.153.13] has joined #lisp 08:02:24 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-nfuqmayasebobgza] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:02:31 -!- November [november@osiris.parodius.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:03:41 -!- stlifey 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springz_ [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 09:32:40 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pad-sh-1.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:33:21 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: reboot] 09:34:03 feep [~feep@p4FCF7AFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:09 hi 09:34:19 I'm on 64-bit gentoo and trying to cross-compile ecl for mingw32 09:35:09 feep ,you are so brave 09:35:20 http://pastebin.com/F53LQ9TH 09:35:38 sammi`: well I want to target win32 and my existing toolchain is mingw32 so it's kind of unavoidable 09:36:24 there is no lisp stuff available on windows? 09:36:26 the relevant line is @(defun mp::make-process (&key name ((:initial-bindings initial_bindings) Ct)) 09:36:30 sammi`: "lisp stuff"? 09:36:32 Dodek [am291698@duch.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 09:37:16 like a lisp compiler 09:37:25 feep: it is usually easier to not cross compile 09:37:27 peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 09:37:44 Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has joined #lisp 09:37:48 -!- michael_alex [~michael@c-76-105-6-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:37:52 H4ns: That is marvellously helpful. 09:38:10 feep: ? 09:38:12 I'm not sure how to implement it though given that I'm on linux and need to target windows and my toolchain is mingw. 09:38:17 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has left #lisp 09:38:21 it's kind of what you'd consider unavoidable constraints. 09:38:25 sorry, bit miffed 09:38:27 no offense 09:38:59 Guest83461 [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has joined #lisp 09:39:21 I do appreciate the advice, it's just hard to follow. 09:39:52 feep: and you have no way to build on your target? Some folks in #sbcl tell me wine works pretty well as a cross-build environment as well, fwiw. 09:39:55 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 09:40:35 pkhuong: yeah but I'm not going to do that. I mean, I can run test stuff on the target, but I'm not gonna do it by simple virtue of the fact that I _like_ having all my dev stuff on the same architecture more than I need ecl. 09:41:42 not to mention advantages in build automatization. 09:41:46 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 09:42:21 like I said, I'm told wine works well for SBCL, and SBCL plays much nastier OS-dependent tricks than ECL. 09:43:24 -!- Guest83461 [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:43:29 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:44:44 anybody seen Xach lately? is he OK? 09:44:58 jdz: he's ok 09:50:37 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:51:19 problem with blogging and tweeting every day, when one takes a break people think you died :-) 09:54:52 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.241.192] has joined #lisp 09:55:00 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has joined #lisp 09:55:22 add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-60-96.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 09:57:15 -!- gko [~gko@220.228.255.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:57:32 mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.210] has joined #lisp 09:58:21 Houl [~Parmi@194.94.79.226] has joined #lisp 09:58:21 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-uajktckxqcsmexxb] has joined #lisp 09:58:21 _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 09:58:21 weelevel [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 09:58:21 fooc [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:47 -!- Houl [~Parmi@194.94.79.226] has quit [Changing host] 09:59:47 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 10:00:27 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:04:41 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has joined #lisp 10:05:26 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:05:56 jfleming [~jfleming@46.243.25.78] has joined #lisp 10:07:09 Ralith_ [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has joined #lisp 10:07:14 okay, as far as I can see dpp is supposed to edit out the :: but it doesn't 10:07:20 -!- Ralith [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:07:22 or else I'm completely misunderstanding this 10:09:32 also chance that get married 10:10:16 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:11:15 Guest61828 [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has joined #lisp 10:13:24 shizzy0 [~user@132.198.9.71] has joined #lisp 10:14:48 okay 10:15:13 if I read this correctly, dpp's translate_function isn't doing its job. but I still don't get why this only happens when crosscompiling. I'll try changing it to filter out :: and see if it changes 10:15:26 -!- Guest61828 [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:15:33 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 10:17:55 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d142-179-78-231.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 10:22:56 I think I see the problem, or something like it .. if the dpp configure didn't include this symbol, then the dpp binary would not include it. that could be why it's failing to translate it. 10:24:27 okay so I basically need to build a dpp that has the correct flags but runs on x86. I think. 10:24:31 er, x86/linux 10:25:39 oh look, there it builds :D 10:27:30 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:28:12 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442267.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 10:28:19 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442267.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 10:28:37 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442267.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 10:29:29 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:31:08 ozzloy [~ozzloy@ozzloy.lifeafterking.org] has joined #lisp 10:31:08 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@ozzloy.lifeafterking.org] has quit [Changing host] 10:31:08 ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has joined #lisp 10:35:05 -!- Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:36:38 benny` [~benny@i577A80F2.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:37:01 -!- springz_ [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:37:02 -!- benny` is now known as benny 10:38:40 hey, does anybody know anybody with ecl commit rights? I think I found a bug~ 10:39:55 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-094-219-157-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:40:03 feep: contact the ecl mailing list. ecl internals are rarely discussed here. 10:40:10 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:40:36 aw, thanks 10:42:39 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.70.166] has joined #lisp 10:43:26 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 10:46:51 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has joined #lisp 10:47:10 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.70.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:47:36 kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-16.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:48:03 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:49:27 i think only juanjo has commit rights, but he rarely visits #lisp 10:52:35 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:52:38 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-16.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 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[~paul0@201.47.45.101.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 12:52:43 (loop (multiple-value-bind (more key value) (next-entry) (unless more (return nil)) ... 12:52:57 that would better user thereis, right? 12:53:16 (loop (multiple-value-bind (more key value) (next-entry) thereis more ... 12:53:27 not really 12:53:36 oh well I needed to write it down, yet 12:53:38 yes 12:53:59 the unless is not evaled in the same place than the thereis, namely in the multiple-value-bind body 12:54:01 ok 12:55:36 even if you change your loop to multiple-value-setq (so that thereis works) it will not do what you want 12:55:50 well, you have not stated what you want anyway 12:56:03 this code is pasted from the standard directly 12:56:08 (info "(ansicl) with-hash-table-iterator") 12:56:43 not the one using extended loop 12:56:57 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has joined #lisp 12:57:15 morning 12:57:29 jdz: I'm not sure I see the one you're mentionning 12:58:13 whatever. i have a meeting to attend. 12:58:24 see you :) 12:58:41 hi slyrus_ 13:00:54 (with-slots (counts lock) counter (bt:with-lock-held (lock) (incf (gethash username counts) count))) 13:01:04 -!- booklet [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:01:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-63-157.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 13:01:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-63-157.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 13:01:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:01:12 is there something obviously wrong in there? CCL debugger is not helping me as much as I would like 13:01:19 value NIL is not of the expected type NUMBER. 13:01:52 oh 13:02:00 default value in the gethash call might help :) 13:02:12 indeed :) 13:02:25 yeah, playing with too many new things at once leads to being lost 13:02:41 that's my first CL class here :) 13:02:49 and my first hash table 13:02:58 and my first locking with bordeaux-threads 13:03:01 so... :) 13:03:49 *sykopomp* wonders if SBCL supports atomic-incf on hash tables. 13:04:29 profmakx [~profmakx@unaffiliated/profmakx] has joined #lisp 13:06:39 -!- zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-163-13.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:07:49 -!- shizzy0 [~user@132.198.9.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:08:00 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:08:08 Quadresce [~quad@c-24-131-149-41.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:21 -!- Quadresce [~quad@c-24-131-149-41.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:08:21 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 13:09:19 I need to read some more about defgeneric, what's the use case? 13:09:38 I've just tried doing the defmethod directly and it seems to be ok without the defgeneric 13:09:59 -!- Quadresce is now known as Quadrescence 13:10:34 dim: you need defgeneric if you want to use nonstandard method combination. it is also useful for adding documentation to the generic function. 13:11:41 adding docs to a non-existing generic function, I'm not following? 13:12:17 dim: think of it as specifying an API, that is implemented by defmethods. 13:12:17 oh, you can actually modify an existing one too 13:12:21 dim: badly expressed by myself. it is useful to define a generic function and document it at the same time. 13:12:23 *dim* reading (info "(ansicl) defgeneric") 13:13:14 jfleming: if I'm not writing a lib and don't think there will be any subclassing of my utility object, I can bypass defgeneric, right? 13:13:38 you can also use defun 13:13:39 it looks a little like this Interface thing in Java, for now 13:13:50 slyrus_: mmm. right. 13:15:16 dim: I would consider it poor style to have defmethod (or defclass, for that matter) define generic functions automatically. Lambda list congruence can get confusing, documentation can't be put in the right place, and my hunch is that if you're doing plain defmethods you're likely also thinking of CLOS like Java-style OO. 13:15:42 oh, and even simple typing mistakes are harder to catch. :) 13:16:31 here I'm just using a defclass so that I can handle an hash-table and its lock in the same place 13:16:45 and I will use only one instance for all the life of the program 13:16:58 and it's not a lib and won't get a subclass 13:17:09 if you don't have to extend, why not just defun? :) 13:17:13 I mean, a closure would do, but I might as well learn about defclass while at it 13:17:15 like slyrus_ said. 13:18:00 defclass is easy. It defines a data type with named slots and has miscellaneous conveniences that involve methods! 13:18:29 you can use generic functions with builtin datatypes and defstructs the same way. 13:19:59 dim: there's no technical reason you _can't_ bypass defgeneric and just use defmethod, but there are good reasons to use it. I've found it quite useful to define an API which I then implement as collections of methods that are specialised around different classes to which I want the API to apply. Different storage backends for a web application, for one example. 13:20:12 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-60-96.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 13:20:30 sykopomp: I've been told defstructs has no value when compared to defclass 13:20:40 Guest57489 [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has joined #lisp 13:20:54 dim: I don't know who told you that. I'd tell them to get stuffed. 13:21:18 I think it's a bit like Lisp macros: you have to be working above some minimum size threshold before its value really starts to show, but once you've understood the idea, there's no reason not to use it in the small where it makes sense. 13:21:19 hehe 13:21:24 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:21:24 too many tools in CL :) 13:22:03 so I'll be using defgeneric even here, then, or I'd have to rethink and use two separate defvar/defparameter, one holding the hash-table and another for the lock 13:22:05 defstruct has its place. I find myself using it a lot these days. :) 13:22:09 It's an industrial toolkit; it's a rare job on which you'll use all of them. 13:22:12 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 13:22:40 now, editing question, what's the difference between the defgeneric :documentation entry and the defmethod docstring? 13:23:17 :documentation applies to the generic function. 13:23:34 That's an easy one. The defgeneric documentation gets automatically inherited by each of the defmethods that implement it. 13:23:48 -!- Guest57489 [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:23:57 inherited?... 13:24:14 OK, so I misphrased it, but the word seemed to fit. 13:24:27 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has joined #lisp 13:24:40 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:25:17 They do strike me as a very class-based OO kind of critter, though - defgeneric defines the class, and defmethod defines the instances. I wouldn't want to stretch the analogy much further, but it works for me to that point. 13:25:35 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-204-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:37 I can get that yes, interface and implementation 13:25:41 jfleming: think type classes. 13:25:50 or 'protocols'. 13:26:19 -!- Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.2.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:27:00 I have to say it early, so now: I don't like OOP at all, or in fact I didn't like it until reading the two chapters about it in Practical Common Lisp. At least OOP looks like a good and rich tool set to have and use rather than your only way to see the world. 13:28:25 I like CLOS :) 13:30:09 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:04 Guest39422 [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has joined #lisp 13:31:44 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@ct1corp.globo.com] has joined #lisp 13:31:47 I think I will too :) 13:32:50 CL-USER> most-positive-fixnum 13:32:51 4611686018427387903 13:32:57 aw yeah i've been waiting a whole year for this 13:33:15 1152921504606846975 here, with CCL 13:33:26 yeah I just tried CCL too 13:33:46 but we all secretly know who does numerics better 13:34:05 so why everyone isn't using clisp? 13:34:15 ;) 13:34:16 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@75.Red-88-7-128.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:38 dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:24 wasn't CLISP better in *bignums*? 13:35:31 well or is cmucl the target here, meaning sbcl nowadays? 13:35:33 Quadrescence: it took you that long to get an x86-64? 13:35:33 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:35:38 p_l: just read that on their home page 13:35:43 pkhuong, yes, and still, this is windows :{ 13:36:05 dekuked` [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:09 p_l: yeah. punting to GMP is in my queue. 13:36:29 at least it's not Windows Mobile! 13:36:35 writing a better bignum lib competitive with GMP in CL is in my queue 13:36:35 (I dearly hope) 13:36:52 morning! 13:37:13 -!- dekuked` [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:37:39 dekuked` [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:49 Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.2.169] has joined #lisp 13:38:45 shizzy0 [~user@132.198.144.230] has joined #lisp 13:38:55 -!- dekuked` [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:39:23 maybe I'll work on that a little more today 13:39:31 -!- dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:41:02 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@037096009212.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:41:35 -!- Guest39422 [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:45:38 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:47:42 is there a hash function in CL that one can use directly? 13:47:46 antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-fbqwflacpbolphsl] has joined #lisp 13:47:53 clhs sxhash 13:47:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sxhash.htm 13:47:53 *dim* wants to partition the lock 13:48:32 thx 13:48:35 Quadrescence: good luck with that 13:48:51 :) 13:49:23 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-204-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 13:49:41 scrimohsin [~a9h6d5a@gateway/tor-sasl/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 13:51:34 ajay_ [~ajay@CPE0023bee41a54-CM0023bee41a51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:58 gilez [~gdmalet@tux.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 13:52:30 -!- ajay_ [~ajay@CPE0023bee41a54-CM0023bee41a51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:52:47 comatosekid [~comatosek@CPE0023bee41a54-CM0023bee41a51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:52:53 -!- Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.2.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:52:54 dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:59 stassats`: I figure, the low-hanging fruits are in the constant factors, and that would also help an implementation that punts to GMP (: 13:53:20 hey, can someone help me figure out how to run a standalone script that interacts with a django db/models?: https://gist.github.com/2635200 13:53:36 I'm trying to go off this, but I think it's too old: http://www.b-list.org/weblog/2007/sep/22/standalone-django-scripts/ 13:53:46 how many bt locks would it be reasonnable to use at once? 13:53:53 pkhuong: the only hope would be to use code generation to your advantage 13:54:00 -!- comatosekid [~comatosek@CPE0023bee41a54-CM0023bee41a51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:54:14 gmp has lots routines specifically optimized for different sizes of operands 13:54:22 oh dang it, wrong channel 13:55:08 comatosekid [~comatosek@CPE0023bee41a54-CM0023bee41a51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:58:48 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053005093.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 13:59:08 -!- comatosekid [~comatosek@CPE0023bee41a54-CM0023bee41a51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:59:14 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 14:00:54 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 14:00:59 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:11 comatose_kid [~comatose_@CPE0023bee41a54-CM0023bee41a51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:50 stassats`: when did that ever stop me? ;) 14:04:32 how's napa-fft going? fft can be used for multiplications 14:04:55 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05:21 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:05:28 it works, and is competitive with the state of the art. Not sure it's precise enough. I should ask Brad about this. 14:06:24 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:06:46 but I'm more interested in multi-dimensional FFTs. There's a neat generalisation of bit-reverse in there. 14:07:09 In commonqt, how do I access an enum? Particularly I'm interested in Qt::LeftDockWidgetAre, which I can see exists because (qt:qapropos "leftdock") returns it. 14:07:26 (#_Qt::LeftDockWidgetAre) 14:07:47 no, wait 14:07:47 Aha! 14:07:49 No? 14:08:26 no, right 14:08:42 Yeah, it works. 14:08:47 stassats`: Thank you. 14:09:05 i was confused just that i tried it and it didn't return for me anything sensible 14:09:26 because it's Area 14:09:39 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 14:10:10 sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 14:10:14 Now, how do I do something like `Qt::LeftDockWidgetArea | Qt::RightDockWidgetArea'? 14:12:10 (enum-or (#_Qt::LeftDockWidgetArea) (#_Qt::RightDockWidgetArea)) 14:12:14 -!- Guest90767 [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:12:22 stassats`: Nice. Thank you. 14:12:27 Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.2.169] has joined #lisp 14:12:43 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 14:12:46 -!- xristos is now known as Guest94904 14:13:00 why use qt? i had trouble w/newton-cotes. 14:13:17 moogman [~BONGO@cpc1-sgyl30-2-0-cust778.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:13:48 sorry. wrong buffer. 14:14:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:14:39 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 14:14:52 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-63-157.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 14:14:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-63-157.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 14:14:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:15:07 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has joined #lisp 14:16:13 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16:18 Yamazaki-kun 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[~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has joined #lisp 14:57:52 -!- weelevel is now known as hpd 14:59:33 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 14:59:59 peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 15:00:21 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:00:25 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has joined #lisp 15:01:46 chenbing [~user@115.205.0.82] has joined #lisp 15:04:35 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-hudd6-0-0-cust741.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:05:44 -!- xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:06:05 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.208] has joined #lisp 15:07:14 xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 15:08:28 hrm is specifying :type (or nil some-type) not correct for structure slot-type? 15:08:54 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:09:11 oGMo: you probably want (or null type). 15:09:27 gah, duh, thanks 15:09:33 still pre-coffee 15:09:52 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 15:11:22 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:11:56 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl22-64-78.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:12:15 -!- scrimohsin [~a9h6d5a@gateway/tor-sasl/scrimohsin] has left #lisp 15:12:17 is SBCL 1:1.0.40.0-3 well supported by slime? 15:12:20 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:12:34 mmm. second try is better. 15:12:39 probably not. That's more than a year old. 15:14:18 hiyosi [~hiyosi@102.124.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:15:00 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:15:09 WARNING: These Swank interfaces are unimplemented: (DISASSEMBLE-FRAME SLDB-BREAK-AT-START SLDB-BREAK-ON-RETURN) 15:15:09 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has left #lisp 15:15:11 pnq1 [~nick@AC81039F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:25 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has joined #lisp 15:15:50 -!- permanente [~profmakx@2a01:4f8:150:3181:2::20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:15:55 permanente [~profmakx@2a01:4f8:150:3181:2::20] has joined #lisp 15:15:57 -!- pnq [~nick@AC810028.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:16:38 it seems to be able to start slime every second attempt 15:17:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:17:23 dekuked`` [~user@mail.kesnermorrissey.com] has joined #lisp 15:17:32 -!- antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-fbqwflacpbolphsl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:18:41 dim: You know what they say: second time's a charm. 15:18:43 -!- dekuked` [~user@mail.kesnermorrissey.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:19:06 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:21:16 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 15:21:34 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 15:21:34 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Client Quit] 15:22:05 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 15:22:50 -!- permanente [~profmakx@2a01:4f8:150:3181:2::20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:23:42 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Client Quit] 15:24:18 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:24 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:24:55 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:25:31 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has joined #lisp 15:28:29 dekuked [~user@mail.kesnermorrissey.com] has joined #lisp 15:29:13 profmakx [~profmakx@2a01:4f8:150:3181:2::20] has joined #lisp 15:29:19 -!- pnq1 [~nick@AC81039F.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:29:40 -!- profmakx is now known as Guest83036 15:30:03 francisl_ [~flavoie@199.84.162.165] has joined #lisp 15:30:05 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:30:23 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-uajktckxqcsmexxb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:30:30 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.150] has joined #lisp 15:31:33 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:31:34 -!- francisl_ is now known as francisl 15:32:44 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-204-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:20 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:33:54 -!- Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.2.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:34:04 -!- Joreji [~thomas@94-177.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:34:19 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 15:35:03 *didi* got his first memory fault with commonqt 15:35:08 Oh well. 15:37:21 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:38:05 the cl specification doesn't include anything posix specific, right? 15:38:11 Spion_ [~spion@77.28.244.106] has joined #lisp 15:38:15 nope 15:38:21 -!- Spion_ [~spion@77.28.244.106] has quit [Changing host] 15:38:21 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:40:12 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-16.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:40:45 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:40:46 Yay, crisis averted. Keep going. 15:40:49 though it sometimes winks as if to say "here's something that happens to be in posix, I bet implementers will use this posix feature to implement it" (e.g. truename) 15:42:02 -!- Guest83036 [~profmakx@2a01:4f8:150:3181:2::20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:42:05 -!- maxm- [~user@openchat.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:42:05 maxm- [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has joined #lisp 15:42:36 visar [~visar@46.217.69.175] has joined #lisp 15:43:06 permanente [~profmakx@2a01:4f8:150:3181:2::20] has joined #lisp 15:44:02 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.148.205.18] has joined #lisp 15:44:15 -!- manahino [~manahino@softbank126108006128.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:29 The value 563329856708608 is not of type SB-THREAD:MUTEX 15:44:44 now it seems like lparallel is not working with that version of sbcl either. nice. 15:45:17 that's a squeeze machine after all, damn it 15:46:53 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:47:19 anyone know if default alignment changed between gcc 3.x and 4.x on amd64 15:47:30 time to test that ccl package for debian :) 15:47:34 some of my old data seems to have structure alignment a bit off (yea I know forgot pragma pack) 15:47:49 seems to be for structures involving enums 15:48:29 well at least I got the whatever->version so not all is lost 15:51:47 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 15:53:28 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 15:53:36 -!- permanente [~profmakx@2a01:4f8:150:3181:2::20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:54:37 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Client Quit] 15:54:40 permanente [~profmakx@2a01:4f8:150:3181:2::20] has joined #lisp 15:55:02 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 15:56:45 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:57:53 oh it seems a manual svn co of ccl shows the same behavior 15:57:59 Kron__ [~Kron@2.49.66.141] has joined #lisp 15:58:04 and that's in lparallel.queue 15:58:21 could it be due to some updates in the QL packages? 16:00:26 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 16:00:58 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:02:04 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.66.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:02:05 or a nasty bug I didn't spot :) 16:02:25 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-67-116-253-131.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:12 I'm just barely working my way through amop 16:03:49 -!- e-gone is now known as bobby 16:03:56 -!- bobby is now known as ebobby 16:04:22 why do I see people complaining about clos around here? specifically I saw someone say it's getting 'long of the tooth' or some variation and most people seemed to agree. I mean, it just doesn't seem to have any flaws obvious to me. 16:04:46 -!- permanente [~profmakx@2a01:4f8:150:3181:2::20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:04:59 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-094-219-157-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:05:13 bzzbzz_ [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:05:14 -!- dekuked`` [~user@mail.kesnermorrissey.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:05:30 oops, think I fixed that now 16:05:51 permanente [~profmakx@2a01:4f8:150:3181:2::20] has joined #lisp 16:06:45 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:09:04 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:11:05 [SLB] [~slabua@host155-160-dynamic.9-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:11:05 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host155-160-dynamic.9-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 16:11:05 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 16:12:49 -!- permanente [~profmakx@2a01:4f8:150:3181:2::20] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:15:10 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:18:29 jdz [~jdz@host73-89-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:20:35 clos is fine.. I have not seen anyone complaining, linky? 16:20:39 zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-163-13.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 16:22:31 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:22:40 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-383016.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:24:03 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-231.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:24:21 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:25:25 booyaa` [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:19 well, maybe I'm making it up. I don't know; I just remembered people complaining about it. Thought it was here. Probably just misremembering. 16:26:32 dekuked: prob. they mean CLOS can sometimes be a bit verbose but not borken or bad. 16:26:34 is there a lib for dns lookups? 16:26:50 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:27:01 I swear i seen one on github 16:27:18 usocket might do that? 16:27:21 but could not remember the name.. either cl-dns or cl-libresolv or something like that 16:27:34 iolib 16:27:35 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:27:42 thanks to http://rosettacode.org/wiki/DNS_query#Common_Lisp 16:27:48 ahh if its just gethostbyname then almost everyone will have it 16:27:56 I thought you meant async host lookup 16:28:09 tensorpudding__ [~michael@99.56.160.140] has joined #lisp 16:28:29 usually dns lib ppl mean async lookup, as synchronious lookup is generally considered part of socket api, ie gethostbyname() 16:29:03 well if I need to be doing #+ccl that's not fun 16:29:06 look at how drakma does it 16:30:40 snearch [~snearch@f053005093.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:31:30 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.148.205.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:31:33 good idea 16:32:36 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 16:33:00 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-383016.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:34:12 kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-187-128.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:34:29 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@037096009212.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 16:37:26 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 16:37:42 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-204-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 16:38:50 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-204-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:00 dekuked: the point is that if you don't like CLOS, you can use another OOS, or write it yourself. 16:39:08 dekuked: there's for example KR. 16:39:18 http://cliki.net/KR 16:39:44 Or O'Tool's CLON. 16:39:56 dekuked: or you can write your own OOS, in five minutes. 16:40:33 no, I like clos. I'm just wondering if I'm on the slow side for realizing whatever flaws it has. 16:41:14 I've heard people complain that multiple dispatch isn't scalable! 16:41:30 dekuked: you probably won't hit it, then 16:41:32 Like, when you need to dispatch on 10,000 arguments. 16:41:34 so you shouldn't have it at all, even if most dispatches reduce themselves to single-dispatch. 16:41:47 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 16:42:30 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:44:01 I'm not really following; I'm assuming that multiple-dispatch is fast? 16:44:22 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:44:48 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.162.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:07 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 16:45:18 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 16:45:30 i've benchmarked it a bit and on sbcl it usually meets the "no more than 3x slower" standard 16:45:41 dekuked: more like "fast enough" 16:45:46 specializing on more or later parameters tends to be slower 16:46:25 but yes, it is by far fast enough, i've been using it extensively for graphics rendering stuff and it's trivialized by other overhead 16:47:04 dekuked: iirc, genfuns that dispatch on only one argument should be as fast as regular singly-dispatch methods. 16:47:23 you only see a difference vs defun over millions (tens? hundreds?) of calls 16:47:46 (this applies to multiple-argument genfuns where all but one arg is specialized on T) 16:48:20 in sbcl at least (defmethod foo (a b c d e f (g specializer)) ...) is slower to call than (defmethod ((a specializer) b c d e f g) ...) 16:48:35 orly. 16:48:39 hm. 16:48:40 &rest slows things slightly, &key murders things to death 16:49:03 well, it's been a few years since I was crawling through SBCL's CLOS optimizations. :) 16:49:30 sykopomp: yeah i can't complain though .. most things i've encountered specialize on the first parameter, and that is pretty blazing, so 16:49:34 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:50:06 it may be slower than C++, but .. C++ 16:50:31 kilon_alios [~kilon@ppp-94-64-178-5.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:50:49 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 16:51:11 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:51:24 -!- kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-187-128.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:52:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:55:48 tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.123.208] has joined #lisp 16:57:08 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.123.208] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:57:55 tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.123.208] has joined #lisp 16:58:20 -!- tensorpudding__ [~michael@99.56.160.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:58:44 -!- xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:59:33 _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:40 -!- _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:00:05 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:00:13 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 17:00:25 -!- xristos is now known as Guest71614 17:05:23 kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-176-7.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:05:32 hmm, on a trivial example, sbcl is 2-3x slower than c++ compiled with -O0, and almost exactly 10x slower than compiled -O2 17:05:40 that is a lot closer than i expected actually 17:06:09 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:16 ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-043-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:05 (incf (asdf :when and :unless)) ! 17:07:13 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:07:34 oGMo: http://cliki.net/Performance ; sbcl can also be faster. 17:07:49 s/be faster/generate faster code/ 17:08:15 -!- kilon_alios [~kilon@ppp-94-64-178-5.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:08:52 -!- jdz [~jdz@host73-89-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 17:09:13 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:09:15 pjb: sure, but i'm talking not particularly optimized generic function calls dispatching on structs. i could easily make it faster, of course, but this alone is really good imho 17:09:17 truman [~Miranda@knowingly-handling.volia.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:00 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-231.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:13:22 hi 17:13:29 yates [~user@nc-71-48-9-61.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:56 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.123.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:14:06 -!- BitRunes [~ghost@2001:da8:d800:101:216:d3ff:feae:1b91] has quit [Quit: ] 17:14:32 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.149.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:14:33 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.61.89] has joined #lisp 17:14:43 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 17:14:45 when writing a lisp "package", is there a standard mechanism for differentiating "public" functions that are APIs to the package from "private" functions? 17:15:05 yates: public functions are "exported" 17:15:15 ah. 17:15:32 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:37 actually, public *symbols* are exported 17:15:50 some of those symbols will have functions attached :) 17:16:15 so then the follow-on question is, once i've loaded a package, can i tell from the REPL what symbols are exported, or do i have to look in the source (.lisp) file(s)? 17:16:22 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 17:16:56 (i suppose this is all presuming there is no formal documentation for the package, i.e., a web page or somesuch...) 17:17:23 (do-external-symbols (sym :weblocks-demo) (if (fboundp sym) (print sym))) 17:17:41 probably as good as you'll get there 17:17:43 that is one such way, i have found. 17:17:49 i see - ok thanks dlowe 17:19:11 another question (though slightly related): i'm using emacs/slime and getting slightly confused about getting documentation strings. 17:19:20 (defun external-symbols (package) (let ((result nil)) (do-external-symbols (sym (find-package package)) (push sym result)) result)) 17:19:26 i know that for emacs elisp functions, i us C-h f 17:19:52 i have it bound to C-c d f, but i may have changed prefixes 17:20:01 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 17:20:02 what do i use for sbcl functions? 17:20:14 ah, heys oGMo 17:20:22 er, C-c C-d f, i think 17:20:22 s/heys/yes/ 17:20:26 right 17:20:31 i knew that... 17:20:34 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-216-175.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:20:49 dlowe: thanks 17:20:53 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:22:00 remind me to never again call COMPILE-FILE with a DEFCONSTANT that's initialized with a function which loops between 1 and 10^10 17:22:24 spun a few cpu cycles, eh? 17:22:40 well it's still compiling :( 17:22:54 ctrl-alt-delete 17:22:57 NO! 17:23:03 I can't lose progress. 17:23:48 dlowe: or just use (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:list-external-symbols package) 17:23:58 Quadrescence: (interrupt-process ... (return-from ... nil)? 17:24:02 -!- Munksgaard [~philipm@tyr.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:24:21 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 17:25:48 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 17:26:59 bleh, marshal relies on print for structs ;/ 17:27:00 kpal [~kpal@5ac28f22.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:08 Munksgaard [~philipm@tyr.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 17:27:41 pjb: that's nearly the length of the actual function 17:30:02 dlowe, haha 17:30:31 dlowe: +1 17:30:36 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:31:09 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-67-116-253-131.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:31:36 pjb: is that a commercial package? (i.e., do you have to pay for it?) 17:32:08 (ql:quickload "com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package") 17:32:31 (ql:quickload "com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum") 17:33:14 i take it you are Pascal Bourguignon? 17:33:17 It's AGPL3. You can get it for $0, and you can use as you wish. But if you distribute software or run a website using it, you must also publish your sources. 17:33:20 yates: yes. 17:33:27 (see how i picked that up? sharp, eh?) 17:33:31 At least that's what / who pjb says. 17:33:43 I mean /who pjb 17:33:57 nice to meet you, Pascal. I'm (guess who?) Randy Yates. 17:34:06 Nice to meet you! :-) 17:34:09 :) 17:34:30 aha - the "Why Lisp?" question answered! (twice, nonetheless!) 17:34:41 The documentation is at http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/doc 17:35:24 Argh, the link to the ALU case studies is a zombie. 17:36:11 pjb: still doing much 7090 assembly? :) 17:36:43 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.148.195.59] has joined #lisp 17:36:52 ledai [~lda@159.Red-83-36-190.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:04 the machine looks to be, what, 70s-ish? 17:37:39 that's cool, btw. i used RSX11-M and VAX/VMS back in the day... 17:37:54 No, 7090 is late 50's early 60's -ish. 17:37:59 oh my. 17:38:09 LISP 1.5 was implemented there. 17:38:19 LISP (1) was implemented on a 704/709. 17:38:48 you probably know Dave Pitts? http://www.cozx.com/~dpitts/ibm7090.html 17:39:06 dekuked` [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:32 ... 17:39:39 pjb: is there a 7090 assembly language instruction set on the web? 17:39:52 (sorry, i digress..) 17:40:20 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.61.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:40:25 I had a very weird epiphany right now about AGPL. It's quite possible you might not need to follow the "A" additions to GPL, at least in Poland. Might depend on where you used the code 17:41:12 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:19 -!- dekuked [~user@mail.kesnermorrissey.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:41:41 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@134-158-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:35 pjb: holy smoke, how long you been using emacs? 17:43:42 lol 17:43:50 your package list is impressive, if only for the quantity 17:44:21 *p_l* isn't that much of a longtime emacs user, but probably hit the current limit on how far in the past you can get without being born before 70s 17:45:49 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 17:45:58 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:46:27 kushal [~kdas@114.143.160.163] has joined #lisp 17:46:27 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.160.163] has quit [Changing host] 17:46:27 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:46:39 francisl_ [~flavoie@199.84.162.165] has joined #lisp 17:47:07 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:58 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:47:58 -!- francisl_ is now known as francisl 17:50:13 kanru` [~user@199.195.142.182] has joined #lisp 17:50:16 ngz [~user@103.69.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:53 -!- kanru` [~user@199.195.142.182] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:15 kanru` [~user@199.195.142.182] has joined #lisp 17:52:50 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:54:21 dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:55 -!- sammi` [sammi@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-jfhjmkrohbygpwga] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:56:32 -!- dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:56:38 -!- dekuked` [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:57:00 dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:39 antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-wjifgwhbnkmemthd] has joined #lisp 17:58:21 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:36 -!- tensorpudding_ is now known as tensorpudding 18:02:38 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-187-216-209.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:02:48 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:03:30 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:05:13 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-231.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:05:25 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 18:07:14 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:33 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:09:16 what happened to the channel bot topic ? 18:09:28 did anyone decide ? 18:09:34 ,topic 18:09:44 ,topic 18:10:37 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@037096009212.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:11:15 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:11:17 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-129-71.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:52 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:18 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-233-177.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:14:34 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-129-71.as43234.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:15:40 sammi` [sammi@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-baswwpnlagzyxefa] has joined #lisp 18:16:35 there never was one 18:19:21 yates: I've been using emacs from 1989. I've been programming in CL exclusively since 1999, but some of my CL code is as old as 1994/6. 18:19:40 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:04 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:20:26 homie: we use the standard irc feature /topic instead. 18:20:32 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:21:22 p_l: if that was the case, I might add exclusions for those countries 18:21:38 It would be too easy to host your web services there. 18:21:47 #; 18:21:56 oh. sorry. just practicing 18:22:46 pjb: nah, it would probably depend heavily on where in the stack the AGPL code was used 18:23:02 oh no, the bikeshed discussion has contaminated #lisp. 18:23:05 :( 18:23:31 sykopomp: heh 18:23:32 -!- truman [~Miranda@knowingly-handling.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 18:23:46 sykopomp: instant classic! 18:24:16 pjb: I doubt anyone would go for it, but it just highlights to me a messy situation involved there. Especially since I very much like GPL for *application* code, as it gives certain level of insurance to a client 18:25:14 CL is too perfect, so all people can come up with for CDRs is 2-line syntax hacks that shorten existing code by 4-5 characters. 18:25:21 ;D 18:25:26 sykopomp: hahhahahaha 18:25:28 true 18:25:40 p_l: users have the same problem with web site: they put their data there, and don't know what happens to it, and get some results not knowing how they came out. 18:25:48 sykopomp: if it hadn't be pascal costanza, the suggestion would have been ripped to pieces in no time 18:25:59 I found so far... 2? Maybe 5 ideas tops that actually make sense for CDR 18:26:12 so it seems to insert lots of data into PostgreSQL with postmodern one has to generate himself the sql statement, and I guess that calls for with-output-to-string and format, right? 18:26:15 H4ns: indeed, I would have answered to it sooner. 18:26:49 dim: pomo:sql-compile 18:27:25 oh, I don't think so 18:27:37 for CDR ideas, one is small in actual implementation terms, but useful (IMHO), two involve a bit of coding in guts of implementations (extensible sequences and hashtables), 2~3 are package hacks that might, or might not, be useful much, but might simplify organization of code 18:27:55 the first one being optionally non-interning reader 18:27:57 mmm, that said. 18:28:01 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 18:28:33 imho not non-interning, but late-binding reader 18:28:35 p_l: well-defined specific conditions thrown by all of cl: 18:28:53 dim: hm? 18:29:18 Hm. How many CDRs relate to package conveniences? (things like hierarchical packages, package-local-nicknames, symbol aliases, etc) 18:29:26 I want to produce insert with 100 rows per values instruction 18:29:33 reader reads "potential symbols".. these have a name, but their package is unknown.. Once these symbols are actually used, some resolution could be done, since resolution may be different on the context 18:29:42 insert into foo values (a, b), (c, d), (e, f), ...; 18:29:58 wraped in transactions of 100 insert queries 18:30:33 dim: and that can't be done with pomo:sql-compile? 18:30:36 that's either that or using the COPY FROM syntax, which is not available at all in postmodern, except with the patch you mentionned, and that I'm yet to find the time to make working 18:30:41 sykopomp: that's the last three I mentioned. hierarchical packages, relative packages (from Symbolics CL, also do package-local nicknames for you), and conduits 18:30:51 H4ns: apparently not, single line oriented, update like syntax 18:30:57 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:31:30 the non-interning reader, btw, is iirc 3 lines of code to insert in SBCL's reader 18:31:32 dim: ah. so you need to hack s-sql to support that syntax. 18:31:35 if not less 18:31:54 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:32:19 H4ns: I'm just solving a little practical problem, I'll get back revisiting the tool set when it works 18:32:43 I'm still in the phase where I mainly get a taste of CL you know :) 18:32:57 dim: enjoy 18:33:41 so today's taste bite was having 16 parallel threads filling up a single hash table with 1024 lock partitions with some data (will be 33 millions lines when running for real) 18:34:17 do you have access to fancy hardware? 18:34:26 16 threads make no sense unless you got 16 cores 18:34:39 maxm-: that's single, *affordable* cpu these days 18:34:42 now I have to actually push that data to a database so that I can apply a hashing function in there then distribute the result over to some shards (256 of them) 18:34:51 doh, /me is behind the time 18:34:56 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:03 what kind of box i can build myself with 5-10k budget these days? 18:35:16 maxm-: at least 16 cores with good amount of ram 18:35:20 probably more 18:35:22 maxm-: amazon EC2, and the CPU time is spent on 16 remote machines, local threads are just filling the hash-table, not doing anything intensive, only IO 18:36:05 maxm-: 16 cores is "single Interlagos-based Opteron"... and "there's an architecture update coming next quarter" 18:37:31 maxm-: with ~20k USD, I think you might be able to get 64 cores 18:37:46 amd64, that is 18:37:56 SPARC makes cores cheap 18:38:26 so opterons are back in business? The quick google search shows ppl going with xeon X5675, whatever that is, says 12 cores 18:38:30 POWER7 not so cheap but still many 18:39:27 maxm-: Xeons got better max speed per core, Opterons are quite visibly comparable in price/efficiency area 18:40:21 a good motherboard and you might get a powerful VM server (with secure PCI-e bypass etc.) 18:40:43 also need to check cache sizes and fsb bandwidth, btw ... 18:40:46 is there a good US builder who builds these? I'm really sucky with hardware, so I have to order it rather then building myself 18:41:24 maxm-: check reddit /r/buildapc (or something similar) 18:41:37 -!- two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:41:38 blackwol`: both architectures happen to not have an FSB anymore, though IIRC only Sun made the non-compliant multi-IO Opteron motherboards 18:42:13 really weird that 2.4 gz 4-core box seems like a fossil these days 18:42:17 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 18:42:42 kurgh [~user@mail.oceanworks.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:30 maxm-: put an ssd in it. 18:43:32 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 18:43:37 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@c-76-23-252-81.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 18:43:42 2.4 ghz quad core isn't slow. ;) 18:44:12 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.197.45] has joined #lisp 18:44:15 well the way ppl talk about 16 core being affordable these days.. When I build this box, it was around 8k total from monarch computers 18:44:22 maxm-: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813151219 <--- 4 socket motherboard supporting 16-core cpus 18:44:58 p_l: k, haven't been up on hardware for years. too many options, obsoleted too fast. 18:45:21 did the motherboard sizes change? 18:45:35 blackwol`: the fun bit: that part didn't change for AMD since first K8 18:45:57 coz maybe I can just rebuild my box with new mb.. I'd like to keep my raid5 and the case is actually really solid.. Not a single fan failed in 5+ years 18:46:54 *maxm-* got to calculate the value of building new "ultimate workstation" or just getting a solid new one, and transitioning to amazon EC stuff 18:48:07 pnq [~nick@ACA24A3B.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:48:15 -!- ledai [~lda@159.Red-83-36-190.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ledai] 18:48:18 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:07 maxm-: well, this one was for idea with a VM server 18:49:07 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:49:18 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:49:22 "private cloud", as the marketoids call it 18:49:34 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.162.165] has quit [Quit: francisl] 18:51:05 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@214-106-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:51:32 -!- kurgh [~user@mail.oceanworks.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:51:43 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51:44 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 18:53:07 kurgh [~user@mail.oceanworks.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:39 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:56:43 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.195.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:57:20 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.192.55] has joined #lisp 18:57:21 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:35 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:02:45 jack_rabbit [~kyle@arh2050.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 19:03:23 -!- visar [~visar@46.217.69.175] has quit [Quit: visar] 19:04:07 -!- kpal [~kpal@5ac28f22.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:41 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-103-044.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:49 -!- kurgh [~user@mail.oceanworks.com] has left #lisp 19:11:17 -!- billitch [~billitch@70-36-196-160.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:12:04 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:12:52 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:13:27 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 19:13:58 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.162.165] has joined #lisp 19:17:17 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 19:17:29 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA24A3B.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:18:57 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:19:05 nikodemus [~nikodemus@178-55-57-180.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:19:21 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:19:30 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-108-4-74-122.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:19:55 pnq [~nick@ACA24A3B.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:10 wow, I almost want to rejoin pro@ to slap some sense into people 19:20:22 hrrhrr 19:20:36 hahaha 19:20:54 Kryztof: which people ? 19:21:09 Kryztof: pro got infected? 19:21:16 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-11-91.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:21:50 p_l: http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/pro/2012-May/000723.html 19:22:25 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:22:54 well, the first thing I want to say to Pascal is "you made the CDR be a Document Repository" 19:23:05 ah, that 19:23:15 so why worry about whether anyone cares about your document? That's all CDRs are, documents. If you care, write it 19:23:23 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-67-232-187-238.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:26 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 19:23:44 I think that him trying to lecture Peter Seibel on the semantics of EQL was particularly funny 19:24:12 can I directly format an alist keys and values with ~{~a~^, ~}, somehow? 19:24:22 Kryztof: well, I thought there was a requirement of actual implementation before it went anywhere further 19:24:29 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.192.55] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:25:03 also, if pcos puts such stuff for CDR... I think I should get off my ass and submit few of mine after exams. with patches for SBCL to implement them 19:25:06 tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.170.161] has joined #lisp 19:25:14 p_l: no, CDR is just for Documents. (Are you thinking of SRFIs, CLRFIs or similar) 19:25:30 hmm 19:26:30 Kryztof: I think there was *some* proposed method of getting a CDR from "unimportant text file on some server" to "de facto, practical standard"... assumig other people agreed with it 19:26:48 TimKack` [~user@c-2ec22154-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 19:26:49 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:27:14 -!- TimKack [~user@c-2ec22154-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:29:08 dim: you can do it as: (format t "~{~/fmt:cons/~}" a-list) 19:29:14 (defun fmt:cons ) 19:29:16 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA24A3B.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:29:20 just did that 19:29:24 that's quite awesome 19:29:35 (format sql "insert into ~s values ~{~/fotolog-comments:print-assoc-as-sql-values/~^, ~};" table alist))) 19:29:43 well the function and package name are quite long now 19:29:47 but still 19:30:02 pnq [~nick@ACA24A3B.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:24 is fmt:cons something quite "standard"? my own definition is quite specialized here tho 19:30:35 (format stream "('~a', ~a)" (car arg) (cdr arg)) 19:30:43 no reason to suppose it's generally applicable 19:31:21 -!- ngz [~user@103.69.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:31:21 defun fmt:quite-specialized-cons  ;-) 19:31:38 hehe 19:31:44 that's what I about did 19:31:45 -!- TimKack` [~user@c-2ec22154-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:32:08 But you can add a nickname to your package so that it's as short as fmt, or import your formater function names into CL-USER and just write "~{~/sql-value/~^ ~}" 19:32:09 I'm not exporting it, still the name ain't great 19:32:27 well I don't really care about it being too long, honnestly 19:32:33 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:32:43 well, not *that* much anyway :) 19:33:12 (with-hash-table-iterator (next-entry counts) (loop for (more? key value) in (values-list (next-entry)) thereis more? ... 19:33:18 another win for loop, that, too 19:33:24 TimKack` [~user@c-2ec22154-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 19:34:54 dim: you can import unexported symbols: (import 'fotolog-comments::sql-values 'cl-user) 19:35:38 mathrick [~mathrick@176.97.27.149] has joined #lisp 19:36:22 I'm doint it the other way 'round 19:36:29 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@2.49.66.141] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 19:36:35 (in-package #:fotolog-comments) from the REPL 19:36:53 then when it feels ok I tweak the export list then ql:quickload again the pacakge 19:36:59 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 19:36:59 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Client Quit] 19:37:02 or go test on the target env 19:37:09 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 19:37:09 ~/ doesn't use *package*, but cl-user. 19:37:14 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:44 _3b: do you have css anywhere for your colorize syntax output (3bmd)? 19:38:05 pjb: what's that ~/ you're mentioning? 19:38:12 oh the format one 19:38:21 ok good to know 19:38:21 Yes. 19:38:45 -!- jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has left #lisp 19:39:38 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA24A3B.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:40:22 what's the format magic to do \n + same indentation as current point? 19:40:38 or do I have to use ~<~> etc? 19:41:05 where would I go to learn more about machine learning libraries for lisp? cliki doesn't have many pointers there 19:41:54 (format t "yadda ~Cyoddi~%" #\vt) :-) 19:42:09 dim: there's no "current point" notion exported. 19:42:13 araujo [~araujo@190.38.84.85] has joined #lisp 19:42:13 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.84.85] has quit [Changing host] 19:42:13 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:42:25 so yes, count the characters yourself and use ~<~>. 19:42:49 I've missed something. Why would I use madeira-port over reader conditionals? 19:43:00 For anyone that's read about the release, anyway. 19:43:27 pnq [~nick@ACA24A3B.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:52 e271 [d52f4724@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 19:44:14 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:17 I don't think I've ever seen vertical tab used for real anywhere 19:45:22 _3b: nm, found the chunk of code in colorize 19:46:01 swiley [~swiley@227.sub-75-197-198.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 19:47:01 When I pass a list to a function, i.e. (function-name varname) where varname bound to ('this 'that), is the list coppied in memory? 19:47:54 jack_rabbit: You mean replicate? 19:47:58 yes. 19:48:03 jack_rabbit: Nope. 19:48:29 I thought lisp functions where "by-val" though? 19:49:02 Or does that just mean they are usually designed not to modify the data that they are passed? 19:49:11 jack_rabbit: yes, but most values are references :-) 19:50:19 jack_rabbit: only characters and fixnums are copied. All the other values are references. 19:50:22 so If I have a function like this: (defun return-x (x) x), will (eq (return-x x) x) be T? 19:50:30 Yes. 19:50:35 Awesome! 19:50:36 Unless x is a character or fixnum. 19:50:44 Cool. 19:50:48 If x is a character or fixnum, (eq x x) may be nil. 19:51:04 what is fixnum type? 19:51:05 (eql x x) -> T ; always. 19:51:36 jack_rabbit: implementation dependant. It's a supertype of (signed-byte 16). 19:51:47 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 19:52:00 jack_rabbit: see most-negative-fixnum and most-positive-fixnum. 19:52:29 I was referring to lists in that function, where (eq (this that) (this that)) is only true, if (this that) is the same in memory 19:53:04 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl22-64-78.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 19:53:14 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA24A3B.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:53:23 Yes. if x is bound to a cons cell, (eq (return-x x) x) --> true. 19:53:40 (it's actually a generalized boolean, so it may be different from T). 19:55:11 awesome. What about functions like (first x)? Will this be eq to the first element of x, if x is a list? 19:55:22 pnq [~nick@ACA24A3B.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:55:37 jack_rabbit: same answer. depends if (first x) is a fixnum or character or not. 19:55:54 jack_rabbit: just read the hyperspec. 19:55:55 clhs eq 19:55:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq.htm 19:55:58 clhs eql 19:55:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_eql.htm 19:56:07 Great, thanks! 19:59:24 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 20:00:11 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA24A3B.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:01:00 -!- swiley [~swiley@227.sub-75-197-198.myvzw.com] has left #lisp 20:01:44 -!- comatos__ [~comatose_@CPE0023bee41a54-CM0023bee41a51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:02:15 comatose_kid [~comatose_@CPE0023bee41a54-CM0023bee41a51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:47 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 20:09:55 -!- 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seconds] 20:20:09 gigamonkey_ [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-204-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:09 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-204-191.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:20:09 -!- gigamonkey_ is now known as gigamonkey 20:21:51 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:22:54 michael_alex [~michael@nat10-222.cs.ucdavis.edu] has joined #lisp 20:23:53 ynniv [~ynniv@204.9.220.45] has joined #lisp 20:23:58 if I make-hash-table :size 33000000 then clrhash it, when is the memory really freed and should I really care? 20:24:21 dim: no, you should not care. 20:24:42 we're talking about 2GB of RAM, it seems 20:24:44 garbage collection is done whenever the implementation chooses to do it. 20:25:14 can I "free" an special (as in defvar) instance? 20:25:20 some implementation do incremental garbage collection, ie. they collect some garbage everytime you cons; some other do it periodically,. stopping everything while collecting. 20:25:20 no 20:25:29 (setf *x* nil) 20:25:30 (it's containing the hash, I might want to avoid clrhash (slot-value ... 20:25:34 you can remove the reference by setting it to nil 20:25:40 (defun free (variable) (set variable nil)) 20:25:43 (free '*x*) 20:25:50 hehe 20:25:59 setf is good enough, really 20:26:17 I just want to be sure it's hinting the GC the way I think it does 20:26:17 or (defmacro free (x) `(setf ,x nil)) 20:26:21 (free (car list)) 20:26:37 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-318464.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:30:31 dim: if you're at the repl, objects may stay around for a while due to the variables * ** and *** 20:31:24 pnq [~nick@ACA26E3B.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:31:34 yeah I won't be at the repl, or at least in a "clean" one from this perspective 20:31:34 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.162.165] has quit [Quit: francisl] 20:35:14 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA26E3B.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:35:45 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-67-232-187-238.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 20:36:45 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@h77-53-198-146.dynamic.se.alltele.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:38:53 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:43:06 ok I'm fond of the lparallel.queue facility as a way to implement a dedicated monitoring thread 20:43:24 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 20:43:41 I'm not sure how much I need that when compared to just locking *standard-output* here, but still, it feels nicer to share a minimum 20:44:18 -!- saschakb__ [~saschakb@p4FEA06B7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 20:45:37 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 20:45:48 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053005093.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:46:28 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-255-243.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:46:56 larsthegeek 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21:30:13 you don't even need to clrhash it 21:30:26 just lose the reference to the hash-table 21:32:03 -!- antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-wjifgwhbnkmemthd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:32:14 -!- CampinSam [~Sam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:32:58 dekuked` [~user@mail.kesnermorrissey.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:05 -!- shizzy0 [~user@132.198.144.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:34:04 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-103-044.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:34:43 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@134-158-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has left #lisp 21:36:08 -!- dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:37:01 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.96] has joined #lisp 21:37:15 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.28] has joined #lisp 21:38:47 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 21:38:55 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:39:31 jacius 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[Quit: leaving] 22:07:40 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:08:18 dl` [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 22:09:15 -!- lboat [~lboat@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:10:18 *sshirokov* just got an HTTP server working in his node-like CL project 22:10:42 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 22:10:56 https://github.com/sshirokov/hinge -- Been hacking towards HTTP for a bit, finally got it working and it ended up being totally not slow or ugly 22:10:59 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:12:06 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 22:12:26 Didn't have a good way to measure performance until I got an HTTP "Hello World" functioning, and managed to churn 2500 req/s on the first try 22:13:10 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:13:14 Anyone interested enough to look and opine? 22:13:24 -!- booyaa` [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 22:13:36 I got pretty slow results when I tried using libevent2 compared to iolib :( 22:14:05 I'm based in libev for the event core 22:14:35 Through https://github.com/sbryant/cl-ev 22:15:59 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0038.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:17:34 francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176173836.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:17:46 I didn't like the iolib multiplexer, because the ql versions could never get the timers to work correctly and the only solution I heard was "use the git version", and that pulled in more external deps just to lift iolib up 22:18:19 So I opted to just root myself in libev, if the alternative was more C deps anyway 22:18:31 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:18:39 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:19:08 dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:19:49 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:21:38 sykopomp: that's odd. I'd expect libev to be much faster 22:22:47 fe[nl]ix: I'm still trying to figure out why. I may actually be using libevent2 wrong. I'm consing up a lot of event objects while adding/removing listeners. 22:23:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-240-240.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 22:23:20 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-240-240.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 22:23:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 22:23:33 I had some trouble decoding the sb-sprof output for both versions :) 22:23:46 I bind a lot of closures to watchers, but I try to keep them running for as long as I can and reuse the same foreign watchers and closures every chance I get 22:24:09 |SLB| [~slabua@host33-161-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:24:11 -!- e271 [d52f4724@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.47.71.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:24:31 So I stop it in libev but keep the callback in the jump table, waking up the same watcher next time I know it needs to run 22:24:39 -!- dl` [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:25:00 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has left #lisp 22:25:04 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 22:25:28 Well, I'm consing up new closures with the iolib version, as well, so that can't account for the massive slowdown. 22:26:08 What are you ending up rebinding all the time? 22:26:10 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:26:19 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:26:37 iirc, I couldn't figure out how to reuse event objects in libevent2. You can create them, add them to the event base, and delete them, but not remove and reuse them. 22:26:53 sykopomp: IIRC, libev uses a RB tree underneath. if coded improperly it could waste a lot of time rebalancing 22:27:02 Ah 22:27:13 fe[nl]ix: libevent2, not libev. 22:27:21 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-318464.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:39 right 22:27:43 one of'em 22:27:58 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:27:59 I read their code some time ago 22:28:43 I wonder what pattern libevent2 expects when the application wants to pause repeatedly (such as when you've drained your output buffer) 22:29:00 http://pod.tst.eu/http://cvs.schmorp.de/libev/ev.pod#ALGORITHMIC_COMPLEXITIES -- libev advertises the complexities of its operations 22:33:29 -!- harish [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:34:01 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:54 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:38:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:39:01 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:25 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:46:42 Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-194.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:39 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-255-243.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 22:52:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-57-21.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 22:52:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-57-21.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 22:52:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 22:52:22 DataLinkDroid [~David@1.155.57.221] has joined #lisp 22:58:15 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:59:30 -!- TimKack` [~user@c-2ec22154-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:25 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:02:11 -!- Cosman246 [~user@D-69-91-157-62.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:03:01 tyson1 [~Ian@65.93.93.219] has joined #lisp 23:03:27 -!- tyson1 [~Ian@65.93.93.219] has left #lisp 23:04:17 TimKack [~tkack@c-2ec22154-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 23:04:47 tyson1 [~Ian@65.93.93.219] has joined #lisp 23:04:50 -!- tyson1 [~Ian@65.93.93.219] has left #lisp 23:04:50 this era will not end well... I'm playing buzzword bingo, and all the business channels are full of "captivate, engage, leverage, social networks, and mobile-enable" 23:04:59 not offtopic because of y-combinator 23:05:01 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.28] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07:03 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:07:03 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@201.53.12.75] has joined #lisp 23:07:21 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 23:09:21 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:00 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:10:37 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 23:14:49 -!- ebobby is now known as e-gone 23:18:40 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.28] has joined #lisp 23:21:44 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.96] has joined #lisp 23:26:54 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:30 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:22 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:31:01 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 23:31:56 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:32:59 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:33:30 manahino [~manahino@softbank126108006128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:39 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.241.192] has joined #lisp 23:37:37 -!- ledai [~lda@159.Red-83-36-190.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ledai] 23:38:36 lilin [~lilin@116.19.167.215] has joined #lisp 23:41:28 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:46:19 -!- vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-155-031.dsl.sil.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:47:41 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:19 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@037096009212.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 23:49:44 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@201.53.12.75] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:54 vervic [~vervic@vie-078-142-134-236.dsl.sil.at] has joined #lisp 23:54:05 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 23:54:21 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56:14 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:57:40 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@204.9.220.45] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 23:59:00 -!- lilin [~lilin@116.19.167.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:59:49 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]