00:05:35 -!- gric [~gric@leloop/gric] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:09:10 tensorpudding_ [~michael@108.87.17.114] has joined #lisp 00:09:34 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.62.222] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:13:11 I may have found a memory leak in SBCL, could someone confirm me it's one? http://paste.lisp.org/display/129278 00:14:50 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 00:15:10 -!- TimKack [~user@c-2ec2be8e-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:16:10 I suppose CLOS caches should be made to use weak pointers 00:16:14 nowhere_man: unfortunately, the MOP mandates regular, strong-reference-ful, lists in some places. That may well be one of them. 00:18:00 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:18:23 pkhuong: but weak pointers are not part of CL, how can MOP forbid their use? 00:18:49 nowhere_man: by mandating the use of lists. 00:19:50 ha, ok 00:22:23 pkhuong: in compute-applicable-... ? 00:22:53 in the data structures. 00:22:55 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:21 pkhuong: in the concepts part of the MOP, the word seems to always be "available as a list", but could that be result of the corresponding reader/accessor, whatever the internal structure? 00:26:37 s/word/~ing/ 00:27:11 sure, maybe. 00:28:23 ok, thanks for the help 00:28:37 futuro [~user@opennic/futuro] has joined #lisp 00:29:22 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-125-146.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:03 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:30:18 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:39 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 00:30:47 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:31:32 I'm currently encountering some confusion with let and lambda. In paste http://paste.lisp.org/+2RSA , defcommand doesn't make a new command called whatever is in (car command-list), but instead creates a new command called "name" 00:31:51 and I'm having trouble figuring out why 00:32:04 futuro: defcommand is a macro that doesn't evaluate its first argument. 00:32:19 Ah! 00:32:57 that makes so much sense now 00:36:02 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 00:36:37 -!- tobben [~torbjorn@h-126-55.a258.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:37:30 redscare [~ydl@BAKER-FOUR-SIXTY-SIX.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 00:37:40 -!- republican_devil [~ddcgavins@pool-108-13-218-184.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:38:11 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #lisp 00:38:47 i know that this is a lisp chat, and that the actual algorithm is generally more important than the code, but i was just wondering, with comparable algorithms, does anyone know if Haskell compiled with GHC would run faster, slower, or about the same as lisp compiled with SBCL? 00:39:11 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 00:39:33 <|3b|> redscare: yes 00:39:40 maybe 00:39:51 <|3b|> it would be faster, slower, or about the same 00:40:18 that sounds about right 00:41:11 <|3b|> you could find algorithms that would favor either environment, and you could spend different amounts of time tuning either code, or tune the code with more or less skill 00:41:46 |3b|: but there is no absolute? because I think it is pretty definitive that, for example, compiled lisp runs faster than python. 00:41:55 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:42:02 i know people hate these sorts of questions i probably deserve the sarcasm :) 00:42:07 <|3b|> i doubt even that is absolute 00:42:08 redscare: than python compiled with cl-python? 00:42:11 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:19 redscare: don't you realize how dumb those considerations are? 00:42:25 <|3b|> python calls out to C for lots of stuff for example, so depends on how well your algorithm uses that 00:42:40 plus, timsort is pretty nice. 00:44:52 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 00:47:31 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 00:48:46 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:53:17 well there is a practical motivation for this. I have to write some simulations, but there is no tight deadline, and it's pretty straightforward to write in C (so i should do that, right? :)), and I wanted to learn a new language I could use in the future for this sort of stuff. 00:53:42 compiled performance is not a deciding factor, but still important. and i'm very drawn in by the apparent power of lisp 00:53:48 <|3b|> well, the official answer in this channel is 'use (common) lisp' 00:54:09 *|3b|* suspects you would get other answers elsewhere though 00:57:05 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 00:57:15 redscare: have a look at the references on http://cliki.net/Performance 00:57:24 tiglog [~topeak@123.114.124.21] has joined #lisp 00:57:35 -!- superflit [~superflit@75-166-78-87.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:58:52 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:59:18 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-150-21-142.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59:24 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 00:59:34 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:04:38 tensorpudding__ [~michael@99.23.122.101] has joined #lisp 01:08:16 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@108.87.17.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:09:55 is there a way to evaluate the 'name' variable before defcommand uses it, so it has the value of (car command-list)? 01:10:15 I tried checking in the hyperspec, as well as testing in my REPL, but I'm coming up empty handed 01:11:27 <|3b|> if there is no functional interface to whatever DEFCOMMAND does, you might have to build code and EVAL it 01:11:45 <|3b|> or call it from a macro instead of a function 01:12:08 futuro: try seeing what defcommand expands into? it might call an underlying function, which may or may not be exposed in the interface 01:13:51 what do you mean by "exposed in the interface"? 01:14:04 -!- xjrn [~innocuous@c-67-174-244-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:14:19 Just that the underlying function may not be something the developers intended for you to use. 01:16:06 Ahhh, I see 01:17:50 I definitely don't want to be "recreating" defcommand, so reading the internals is just to get a better idea about what it's doing. 01:18:42 So, if I understand correctly, I should read up on macro's. 01:18:52 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-173-66-213-19.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 01:19:01 You might not even need to check the source, just (macroexpand-1 '(defcommand ...)). Yeah, understanding macros is prerequisite for that. 01:20:53 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 01:22:20 -!- Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:22:57 Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:42 Will do, thank you. 01:31:44 -!- futuro [~user@opennic/futuro] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:33:32 -!- vervic [~vervic@188-23-238-165.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:37:03 -!- pok [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:37:55 pok [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 01:41:58 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:42:19 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 01:43:26 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-098-024-165-246.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 01:47:55 -!- didi 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[~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 07:44:21 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:44:42 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 07:46:17 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:46:38 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 07:47:22 -!- manahino [~manahino@softbank126108006128.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56:16 teggi [~teggi@123.21.175.206] has joined #lisp 07:57:46 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.147.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:01:43 petter [~user@217.118.44.36] has joined #lisp 08:08:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-114.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:09:18 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.147.68] has joined #lisp 08:10:25 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:10:37 I've used to keyword arguments like (skip-lines 0), but how do you specify the field-separator of http://paste.lisp.org/display/129326 ? 08:12:18 petter: i don't understand the question 08:13:01 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.102.66.134] has joined #lisp 08:13:14 stassats`: I don't understand the syntax of the keyword argument ((:field-separator *field-separator*) *field-separator*) 08:13:21 clhs &key 08:13:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm 08:15:18 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-210.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:15:42 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 08:16:15 stassats`: ok thanks, it's just the "long" version: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129327 08:16:46 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:16:58 yes 08:17:16 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.102.66.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:17:22 is there any reason for using this over the "short" form? 08:17:41 did you notice that it uses a different variable name? 08:17:56 and a special variable, at that 08:19:19 so (field-separator *field-separator*) will not work since *field-separator* is bound at reader time? 08:19:57 that sounds confused 08:20:56 when you call (map-csv-file ... :field-separator #\a) *field-separator* gets bound to #\a in the body of map-csv-file 08:21:01 I am... will (field-separator *field-separator*) be equivalent? 08:21:08 petter: no! 08:21:15 did you read the link to clhs? 08:21:42 ok, I get it now, thanks! 08:22:22 it would be the same as (defun foo (&key bar) (let ((*bar* (or bar *bar*))) ...)) 08:22:30 -!- X-Scale [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:24:15 again thanks, that explains it all 08:30:20 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.39.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:41:38 -!- Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.3.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:44:49 Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.0.252] has joined #lisp 08:48:24 killerstorm [~killersto@46.150.96.87] has joined #lisp 08:50:24 araujo [~araujo@190.38.84.85] has joined #lisp 08:50:25 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.84.85] has quit [Changing host] 08:50:25 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:51:33 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d142-179-78-231.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 08:52:14 vervic [~vervic@188-23-206-82.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 08:56:28 -!- bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:57:07 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 08:57:29 hi. I want to experiment with rapid web app prototyping/development in CL. Something which would make developing simple apps about as hard as editing wiki pages. 08:58:27 I already tried this a couple of years ago, using ABCL, bindings to Java RDF library and some macrology. 09:03:19 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.51.246] has joined #lisp 09:03:30 This Java RDF thing is kinda awesome as it provides prolog-style query language which is fairly fast because it works directly with SQL database. But it's ABCL only, obviously. 09:05:23 -!- Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.0.252] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:06:14 Also there is Elephant which lets one to define database just by defining classes. But it's not exactly as 'rapid' as RDF, although perhaps making classes is not a problem to CL programmers. Other ideas? Thoughts? 09:08:16 add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-32-55.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 09:08:35 Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.0.252] has joined #lisp 09:10:27 -!- killerstorm [~killersto@46.150.96.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:10:31 killerstorm: there are a few rdf libraries. and serialization libraries. 09:13:05 teggi_ [~teggi@123.21.175.206] has joined #lisp 09:14:00 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.175.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:16:03 -!- teggi_ is now known as teggi 09:24:01 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:24:53 killerstorm [~killersto@46.150.96.87] has joined #lisp 09:31:35 -!- killerstorm [~killersto@46.150.96.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:35:53 manahino [~manahino@softbank126108006128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:41 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.175.206] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:36:49 teggi [~teggi@123.21.175.206] has joined #lisp 09:38:28 pjb: I committed a cffi change that fixes iolib compilation 09:40:37 ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-043-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:49 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:41:25 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has joined #lisp 09:45:33 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs27123025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:46:10 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129219058.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:46:39 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.175.206] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:47:03 teggi [~teggi@123.21.175.206] has joined #lisp 09:51:11 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 09:52:04 fe[nl]ix: meant to ask you, why resurrect fiveam rather then use stephil? 09:52:49 *maxm* remembers checking all available test frameworks a few years ago, and seemed there was consensus stephil is most mature / stable etc 09:53:02 "consensus" 09:53:14 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.51.246] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.96.1] 09:53:18 no such consensus 09:53:24 I don't like stefil 09:54:28 not looking to start a flamewar, just wondering what does it offer over stephil.. my only problem with stephil is the "test package does not match *package*" warning, which imho is un-nessesary and prevents from arranging tests in a certain way 09:54:41 maxm: it is called stefil. 09:56:43 H4ns: doh, don't know why I keep writing it this way, sorry. 09:56:49 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@75.Red-88-7-128.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:18 maxm: i personally don't use any software from dwim.hu. i don't like the programming style and the "we don't document" attitude. 09:57:30 stefil is from dwim.hu now? 09:57:37 maxm: it has always been 09:57:37 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.147.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:57:45 1) the debugger doesn't pop-up on test failure. I hate that 09:58:03 hmm debugger pops up for me 09:58:17 2) the tests aren't compiled by default, but evaluated 09:58:30 I was referring to fiveam 09:59:37 -!- Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:59:47 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 10:01:04 ah.. for the debugger thing, I use (stefil:funcall-test-with-feedback-message) from asdf:perform 'asdf:test-op, which is non-interactive version 10:01:19 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs27123025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:01:20 *maxm* thinks he probably started using stefil before whole hu.dwim business started 10:01:36 at least it does not pull half of their library now unlike other stuff 10:03:36 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has joined #lisp 10:05:08 *robot-beethoven* wonders... which is the simplest way to test if a pathname (such as "images/") is the base-path of another pathname (such as "images/birds.png")? 10:06:06 robot-beethoven: pathname-directory + mismatch? 10:06:31 alexandria:starts-with-subseq too 10:06:49 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 10:07:36 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 10:07:46 maxm: thanks, i need to remember that one 10:07:58 you probably want to ensure pathname is absolute before comparing if you want to handle cases like ../ vs /home/user/images/blah.gif 10:08:37 Guthur [~user@host86-150-21-142.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:09:11 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs27123025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:12:25 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-125-146.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 10:12:57 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-5-217.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:15:26 now that I've said it, tried to find out how to make arbitrary pathname absolute.. (well its truename if file exist, but what if it does not) 10:15:35 asdf seems to devote around half-page function to it 10:16:22 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-74-181.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:17:31 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-61-39.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:17:33 TimKack [~user@c-2ec20fcf-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 10:18:42 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-125-146.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:26 nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 10:25:19 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:28:05 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs27123025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:34:28 francogrex [~user@109.130.103.241] has joined #lisp 10:34:48 maxm: common lisp has no notion of a "current directory", so there is no portable way to turn an arbitrary relative pathname into an absolute pathname. 10:36:12 how to check that an sbcl build was with thread support? is it inn *features* ? 10:36:18 H4ns: *default-pathname-defaults* is more-or-less that 10:36:21 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-122-250.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:22 H4ns: why, there is, (make-pathname :directory '(:absolute) :defaults #p"foo") 10:36:34 francogrex: yes 10:37:16 ok I don't see anything; then mine was built without threads 10:38:25 what is :GENCGC ? 10:38:36 francogrex: not threads 10:38:41 stassats`: that turns "foo" into an absolute pathname, but it does not tell you where (open #P"foo") would open the file. 10:39:15 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:39:21 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@75.Red-88-7-128.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 10:39:36 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 10:39:45 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-125-146.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:42:07 *default-pathname-defaults* doesn't really work, it's #p"" on clisp and ccl 10:43:17 #-clisp(probe-file *default-pathname-defaults*) #+clisp(ext:probe-directory *default-pathname-defaults*) 10:43:45 blah 10:43:54 (ext:probe-directory *default-pathname-defaults*) => T 10:44:07 now that's useful! 10:44:14 (truename *default-pathname-defaults*) seems to work everywhere 10:44:18 Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:34 even on clisp, surprisingly 10:45:25 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.103.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:45:47 pathnames are fun 10:46:17 like a russian roulette, never know when they will stop doing what you were expecting 10:47:17 (directory "") returns (#p"current-dicectory"), except on Allegro 10:47:37 on allegro it returns everything 10:48:21 "If the pathspec is not wild, the resulting list will contain either zero or one elements." 10:48:35 (wild-pathname-p #p"") => NIL 10:49:18 and the same on lispworks 10:50:39 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-210.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:51:24 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:52:12 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:53:30 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 10:53:46 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:56:53 nikodemus [~nikodemus@87-95-52-234.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:57:01 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:57:15 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 10:57:20 at least you have to pay to be using allegro, it won't just happen 10:57:31 mmm, but you never know who's going to use your lib I guess 10:58:39 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-177-236-86.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:56 francogrex [~user@109.130.103.241] has joined #lisp 10:59:29 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:59:34 -!- TimKack [~user@c-2ec20fcf-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:59:56 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:00:07 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 11:00:16 where do i enable the built with threads, I saw on a blog that it should be in the src file 11:00:16 wtetzner The_third_man jjkola howeyc hugod clop yeltzooo derekv a7p 11:00:16 pchrist cods timb Modius mon_key gz rpgsimmaster ArmyOfBruce housel fmu 11:00:16 __class__ gffa jiacobucci Utkarsh slyrus hiredman rvirding NimeshNeema 11:00:19 ocharles_ SeanTAllen finnrobi Nshag yroeht jaxtr wyan dnm scode brendyn 11:00:22 jerQ lnostdal nitro_idiot_ enn ``Erik rdd gilez g0 k9quaint alanpearce_ 11:00:23 oh noes 11:00:25 cYmen arbscht tvaalen ccl-logbot literal 11:00:30 *** Users on #lisp: felipe Obfuscate _stink_ galdor Axioplase_ tomaw pkhuong 11:00:34 e__krappi yan_ Fade ozzloy luis aoh mal sav ineiros sigjuice froydnj 11:00:37 rootzlevel sawjig oconnore copec gf3 johs BigEndian jayne boyscared guaqua 11:00:37 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-209-72.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:00:40 Bucciarati 11:00:40 *** #lisp modes: +Ccn 11:00:43 *** #lisp was created on Sunday 2003/08/03 11:30:32 PM 11:00:47 ERC> where do i enable the built with threads, I saw on a blog that it should be in the src file customize-target-features.lisp but can't find it maybe it's an old post 11:00:53 what happened! 11:00:59 francogrex: you screwed up 11:00:59 you screwed up! 11:01:04 damn 11:01:07 obviously 11:01:19 francogrex: then you could read the documentation in the sbcl source directory 11:01:27 francogrex: it tells you how to enable threading. 11:01:34 ok 11:01:54 wasn't threaded build default on linux? 11:02:07 francogrex: ./make.sh --with-sb-thread 11:02:24 ok simple 11:03:29 sorry for copy paste above 11:03:58 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:04:46 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.103.241] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:07:17 -!- Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.0.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:08:51 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: Out of this 3D] 11:09:16 *maxm* tried finding equivalent of asdf:truenamize in other likely libraries 11:09:21 osicat, cl-fad 11:09:23 seems none 11:09:57 osicat (absolute-pathname) does not simplify ../../ components, cl-fad does not have such function 11:10:07 imho should be part of cl-fad? 11:11:40 maxm: cl-fad already has tons of platform dependent code, so i tend to agree. 11:11:57 well makes it silly not to use asdf:truenamize anyway, its there and if your system has .asd file you already require :asdf 11:12:07 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:12:22 Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.14.238] has joined #lisp 11:17:04 H4ns: you probably should merge your temp filename lib into it as well.. 11:17:41 why not make it "dwim with filenames" lib, lib already has good name recognision 11:28:10 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:28:52 -!- vervic [~vervic@188-23-206-82.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:30:05 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.175.206] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:30:27 teggi [~teggi@123.21.175.206] has joined #lisp 11:30:48 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 11:32:13 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-098-024-165-246.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:34:15 maxm: true 11:34:34 maxm: i'll work on that. 11:35:03 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:35:15 maxm: merging truenamize makes a lot of sense as well. i'll open issues 11:35:49 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.39.207] has joined #lisp 11:36:24 maxm: other suggestions: https://github.com/edicl/cl-fad -> open issue 11:37:09 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:18 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:39:00 sure will do when I think of something.. My next big project is lispyfing my market data storage, which would use a lot of file/path stuff, (it uses filesystem as db thing similar to git), so I sure it will come up a lot 11:39:30 tensorpudding__ [~michael@99.148.205.151] has joined #lisp 11:39:51 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 11:41:20 pnq [~nick@ACA2DFA5.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 11:42:15 btw completely offtopic but may be of interest to all the professors here :-) I long had an impression that after rar/bz2/ha2 there could be no other improvements in compression... But when wrangling with storage of 100th of gigs of tick data, i had to compress them, so I was testing various methods (ended up bz2'ing them) 11:42:40 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.102.66.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:43:33 and was surprised that a simple diff-coding of tick data (ie storing a few diffs in price from previous tick, with escape mechanism for larger differences), before bz2'ing, improved compression by around 60/70% comparing to raw bz2'ing.. 11:44:42 maxm: for binary data, there's a python library that simply transposes bytes (e.g. an array of doubles becomes 8 arrays of bytes), and that also helps a lot. 11:44:45 so imho an compression pre-processor, that tries to detect regularity in the data, then diff-code it, would seem to be a valid idea to improve compression algos 11:45:58 maxm: that already exists. Look at 7zip's filters, for example. The demsoscene people have really impressive stuff that re-codes stuff to make it better compressable. 11:46:26 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-210.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:46:45 my take on it, that if I open a binary file in any kind of hex view, if it has any kind of regularity, its immediately obvious to the naked eye.. should be possible to automate it, and I was surprised at how huge of a difference it made comparing to just using archivers on raw data.. (it had same improvement with bz2, gz and ha2, so its generalized) 11:46:51 ah cool 11:47:11 man, I always come up with ideas someone else already done :-\ 11:47:54 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:48:37 bz2 and gz are all based on similar algorithms that detect repeated patterns and express the repetitions succintly. Filters are domain-specific hacks. 11:50:18 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@87-95-52-234.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:50:52 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.147.68] has joined #lisp 11:51:15 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:51:29 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:22 killerstorm [~killersto@46.150.96.87] has joined #lisp 11:53:30 yea I know how lz derived compression works in general, just was surprised at pre-processing step making a noticable difference.. Microsoft .cab uses similar tricks from what I understand, detecting the common calling convetions, and diff coding them or something 11:54:25 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:55:37 in fact 7-zip already does exactly what I had in mind 11:55:54 but I had this idea way before :-) around 2002/2003 when I started collecting tick data 11:56:21 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:51 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.102.66.72] has joined #lisp 12:04:57 benny` [~benny@i577A7F76.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:05:08 -!- benny` is now known as benny 12:05:30 H4ns: So can you recommend an RDF library? Last time I've checked they were kinda half-assed in comparison to Jena. Although, perhaps, that's OK for non-critical use. 12:06:32 Anyway, I wonder what lispers would think about using triple store for db. I hope that maybe the thing I'm going to do will be useful to others. 12:06:58 But if reaction to RDF-y Prolog-y backend is "wtf is this shit?" I'd rather go with classes :) 12:07:13 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:08:08 -!- tensorpudding__ [~michael@99.148.205.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:11:34 killerstorm: there is no such thing as consensus in the common lisp community, so use whatever you think is most useful. 12:12:26 killerstorm: the closest to jena when it comes to triples and common lisp is allegrograph. the open source offerings are not nearly as complete. 12:13:02 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:13:16 killerstorm: personally, i'm more into using classes and object persistence, but that is just me. i'm using bknr-datastore for that, and it is relatively agile in that it does not use a database with a separate schema. 12:13:17 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@5353701D.cm-6-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 12:13:27 killerstorm: there are other serialization libraries. 12:13:42 chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has joined #lisp 12:13:43 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has quit [Changing host] 12:13:43 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 12:14:50 cnl [~cnl@95.106.36.201] has joined #lisp 12:14:59 killerstorm: see also picolisp, which embeds both a database layer with transactions and a prolog "query language" 12:15:19 but that's not CL anymore 12:15:38 http://software-lab.de/doc/ref.html#dbase and http://software-lab.de/doc/ref.html#pilog 12:16:49 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-114.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:17:47 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-114.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:18:20 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-189659.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:18:42 kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-181-118.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 12:21:00 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-386360.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 12:22:35 -!- brendyn [brendyn@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:65b4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:23:16 killerstorm: https://github.com/kraison/vivace-graph-v2 may be of interest. 12:23:54 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:23:58 -!- kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-181-118.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:24:34 -!- Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.14.238] has quit [] 12:24:59 Thanks. Looks promising. 12:26:50 brendyn [brendyn@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:65b4] has joined #lisp 12:30:55 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.147.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:32:12 [SLB] [~slabua@host227-161-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:32:12 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host227-161-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 12:32:12 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 12:32:46 vivace doesn't have a license? 12:33:42 killerstorm: if you don't have a huge amount of data (which is what you should probably assume for most of what you do) then bknr-datastore is a lot of fun. it's fast and very easy to setup. 12:44:02 TDJACR [~TDJACR@unaffiliated/tdjacr] has joined #lisp 12:47:09 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 12:48:30 hi,how can i format a C source code in linux style,if it's written in a single line? 12:48:59 cfy: ##c might know. 12:49:39 TDJACR_ [~TDJACR@ool-44c0f02e.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:00 -!- TDJACR_ [~TDJACR@ool-44c0f02e.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:50:02 francogrex [~user@109.130.103.241] has joined #lisp 12:50:24 -!- killerstorm [~killersto@46.150.96.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:50:24 -!- Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:50:58 pkhuong: can i auto format source code,like this http://paste.lisp.org/display/129331 12:51:33 BrianRice` [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:33 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:51:34 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 12:51:49 TDJACR_ [~TDJACR@ool-44c0f02e.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:56 pkhuong: sorry.i join a wrong channel 12:52:00 I built sbcl with threads on windows... works so so, especially when I run in inferior lisp process when the debugger is invoked it just hangs... :-/ 12:52:08 -!- TDJACR_ [~TDJACR@ool-44c0f02e.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:52:15 FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has joined #lisp 12:52:44 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-098-024-165-246.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:53:46 pkhuong: i though i'm in #emacs :) 12:53:50 -!- TDJACR [~TDJACR@unaffiliated/tdjacr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:54:07 TDJACR [~TDJACR@unaffiliated/tdjacr] has joined #lisp 12:54:16 -!- TDJACR [~TDJACR@unaffiliated/tdjacr] has quit [Client Quit] 12:54:42 TDJACR [~TDJACR@unaffiliated/tdjacr] has joined #lisp 12:54:53 -!- TDJACR [~TDJACR@unaffiliated/tdjacr] has quit [Client Quit] 12:55:17 TDJACR [~TDJACR@unaffiliated/tdjacr] has joined #lisp 12:55:27 -!- TDJACR [~TDJACR@unaffiliated/tdjacr] has quit [Client Quit] 12:55:37 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2DFA5.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:55:59 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-098-024-165-246.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:56:07 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined 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structures, it would have been nice to have a way to specify this kind of constraint 13:19:07 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-210.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:25:46 does cffi push something on *features* re fsbv? 13:26:56 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2DFA5.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:27:15 -!- TDJACR is now known as NotADJ 13:30:16 pnq [~nick@ACA2DFA5.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:31:09 -!- NotADJ is now known as TDJACR 13:33:57 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:36:30 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-32-55.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 13:37:10 -!- killerstorm [~killersto@46.150.96.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:42:33 -!- harish [~harish@119.234.170.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:42:55 tiglog [~topeak@117.79.232.225] has joined #lisp 13:44:06 -!- tiglog [~topeak@117.79.232.225] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:44:31 tiglog [~topeak@106.3.63.229] has joined #lisp 13:45:10 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[~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:39:52 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.147.68] has joined #lisp 16:41:13 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 16:41:22 -!- xristos is now known as Guest7205 16:42:00 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Client Quit] 16:43:37 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-jbyavobijchtvxwq] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:46:30 stassats`: ping 16:51:07 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:12 fe[nl]ix: p 16:53:23 -!- two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:54:50 I have a feature request for slime: custom file loaders 16:55:00 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@75.Red-88-7-128.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 16:55:05 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-205-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:02 what does that mean? 16:56:04 e.g., if a file ends in \\.asd, C-c C-b will execute (asdf::load-sysdef ) 16:57:33 customize the behavior of slime-load-file, slime-compile-file and slime-compile-and-load-file 16:57:45 don't know about including it into slime, but it's easy to make a short contrib 16:58:02 sure, whatever doesn't bother heller 16:58:43 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@75.Red-88-7-128.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:36 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:08:08 fe[nl]ix: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129335 17:08:53 thanks :) 17:09:14 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-205-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:09:23 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-22-114.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:24 and you can just bind C-c C-l to it 17:11:44 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:12:07 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:14 wonderful 17:12:16 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:12:47 it actually can be made into an official contrib 17:13:16 helmut doesn't care about contribs 17:13:36 ok :D 17:14:01 if more people want such functionality and have other ideas what other loading operations can be added, then i'd consider adding it 17:15:28 -!- S1am [nomail@eth-209.20-homell.natm.ru] has left #lisp 17:15:49 all sorts of other functionality can be added 17:16:40 such as: find out what ASDF project the file is part of, and set a custom dynamic environment for compile and load 17:16:46 e.g integration with named-readtables 17:17:05 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:21:10 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-22-114.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 17:23:17 named-readtables works fine as it is 17:27:03 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@75.Red-88-7-128.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 17:28:12 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:32:03 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 17:35:33 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:36:49 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:38:47 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.148.201.132] has joined #lisp 17:40:13 BrianRice` [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:13 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:40:15 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 17:41:28 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.206.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:43:27 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:44:29 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 17:44:35 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:47:13 BrianRice` [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:13 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:47:14 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 17:50:21 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:29 FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has joined #lisp 17:51:42 stassats`: it does? 17:53:06 BrianRice` [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:07 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:53:07 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 17:53:14 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-386360.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:55:17 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 17:56:35 BrianRice` [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:36 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:56:37 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 17:58:33 BrianRice` [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:33 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:58:34 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 17:59:08 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:59:29 tali713` [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:30 -!- tali713` is now known as tali713 17:59:36 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:59:52 BrianRice [~water@75-172-8-148.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:59 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-173-66-213-19.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:05:49 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@201.53.12.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:06:00 francogrex [~user@109.130.103.241] has joined #lisp 18:06:55 this condition: (loop while (> (and (length *Y*) (length *X*)) 1) do ... should it not stop the loop if at least one of the two is eqial or less to 1 ? 18:07:56 *|3b|* would expect it to error 18:08:03 it did 18:08:06 <|3b|> AND doesn't return something suitable for use with > 18:08:27 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:08:42 <|3b|> well, not always 18:08:55 <|3b|> though i guess LENGTH would tend to do so 18:09:09 slyrus_: yes 18:09:10 so it should be (and (> (length *Y*) 1) (> (length XY*) 1)) ... ? 18:09:10 ERC> 18:09:21 *|3b|* possibly needs to think about it more carefully, which is a bad sign for code that should be simple 18:09:36 add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-32-55.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 18:10:22 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:30 <|3b|> ok, thinking further, LENGTH always returns something TRUE, so that AND always returns (length *y*), and (length *x*) is ignored 18:10:36 stassats`: emacs/slime don't seem to have any particular support for named-readtables, which is what I thought fe[nl]ix was talking about 18:10:50 slyrus_: named-readtables does, and it works ok 18:10:51 <|3b|> so yeah, (and (> ...) (> ...)) would be better 18:11:06 aha! ok 18:11:13 (> (min (length x) (length y)) 1) 18:11:15 stassats`: then I'm just ignorant of how one uses such support properly 18:11:29 slyrus_: what kind of support do you need? 18:11:36 it works seamlessly for me 18:11:50 i've got a buffer with an (in-readtable ...) form, I'd like stuff below that to be read as if using that readtable 18:12:03 umm... when I do slime-eval that is 18:12:11 slime-eval-region, etc... 18:12:23 that should work 18:13:26 if I slime-eval-region the (named-readtables:in-readtable ...) form, then, yes, slime-eval-region subsequently uses the reader in question 18:13:38 but I don't have to do do that for, say, (in-package ...) 18:14:01 well, that usually is already done when you load the code through asdf and then edit it 18:15:13 arguably. but I think this should work more like (in-package ...) which requires some support from slime 18:15:34 patches are welcome 18:15:50 an admission that the current situation isn't ideal is welcome :) 18:16:11 it's ideal for me! 18:16:27 otherwise i'd fix it myself 18:16:38 heh 18:16:53 the other problem I'm running into isn't named-readtables specific 18:17:34 it's that if one does slime-pprint-eval-last-expression on #P"foo.bar" one gets "foo.bar" 18:17:46 not #p"foo.bar" 18:18:23 emacs' backward-sexp isn't sufficiently intelligent 18:18:28 for my tastes anyway 18:18:32 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.103.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:47 hence the slime-pprint-eval-region patch I sent to slime-devel, which helps, but still doesn't fix the problem 18:18:56 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 18:20:01 do you evaluate lone pathnames in files so often? 18:20:52 two- [~textual@67.23.193.215] has joined #lisp 18:21:33 no, that's the non-custom-readtable version of what I do evaluate in files often 18:21:45 i see 18:21:52 e.g. #M{CCC(C1=CC=CC=C1)=C(C2=CC=CC=C2)C3=CC=C(OCCN(C)C)C=C3} 18:22:27 which is shorthand for (parse-smiles-string "CCC(C1=CC=CC=C1)=C(C2=CC=CC=C2)C3=CC=C(OCCN(C)C)C=C3") 18:23:09 -!- CampinSam [~Sam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:23:38 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81CA20.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:25:18 pnq [~nick@AC81CA20.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:27:20 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:29:14 tensorpudding__ [~michael@99.148.199.229] has joined #lisp 18:32:10 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.148.201.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:33:26 -!- tensorpudding__ is now known as tensorpudding 18:34:03 ehu: thanks! 18:34:43 welcome. 18:35:09 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81CA20.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:38:45 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-69.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:39:15 -!- ghost_ [~ghost@2001:da8:d800:101:216:d3ff:feae:1b91] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:01 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-210.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:42:02 stassats`: I think I can see how one might fix the in-readtable thing, but the backward-sexp thing looks more problematic 18:45:09 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.175.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:28 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:50:08 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-69.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:50:18 -!- naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-145-125.w83-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:51:48 dacoda [~user@178-25-14-11-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:52:56 VieiraN [~VieiraN@177.103.136.5] has joined #lisp 18:53:36 -!- dacoda [~user@178-25-14-11-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:55:33 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.160.221.61] has joined #lisp 18:56:16 nikodemus [~nikodemus@178-55-57-180.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:56:18 antonv [5d7d3142@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp 18:57:02 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.199.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:58:41 -!- tensorpudding_ is now known as tensorpudding 19:01:10 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-69.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:12:17 Is it good practice to use interned symbols for package names etc. like (defpackage #:mypackage) ? 19:12:21 -!- Borbus_ is now known as Borbus 19:12:37 Borbus: that's an uninterned symbol. 19:12:55 Oop, I meant uninterned 19:13:04 imo no. i like completing on keywords, so i like using keywords for package names 19:13:15 but there are differing opinions 19:13:15 (I seem to be dropping characters today) 19:13:21 DDR [~chatzilla@d142-179-78-231.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:39 however, most agree that it /is/ good form to use uninterned symbols (or strings) for things like the export list 19:13:52 so you don't litter another package with symbols that don't belong there 19:14:01 I dislike polluting my completions, so I actually use strings; bah at modern mode. 19:16:26 So if you don't use uninterned symbols for the export list, you may get those symbols interned before you've even loaded that system? 19:16:58 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.66.141] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 19:17:03 Just by your lisp loading all the defpackages when it starts or something? 19:17:37 i don't think that ever happens 19:17:44 dnolen [~user@p72-0-226-118-static.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:47 I use strings for symbol names in DEFPACKAGE as well. 19:18:29 How could it litter a package with symbols then? 19:18:52 TimKack [~user@c-2ec20fcf-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 19:19:28 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 19:19:36 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-192-69.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:19:44 madnificent: vivace-graph-v2 has a proper license now 19:19:55 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-192-69.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:20:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-114.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:21:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-114.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:22:16 Borbus: that defpackage form is READ in a package, whatever it may be. 19:24:02 H4ns: that was fast 19:24:47 So only those symbols that you actually use get interned instead of every one that is exported? 19:24:57 Borbus: defpackage form is executed when the system is loaded, not before 19:25:19 i sense some confusion 19:27:29 I do too.. I guess I'm confused about when defpackages are actually read and evaled 19:28:26 it doesn't really matter, as long as before the packages they define are used 19:32:29 -!- EarlGray^ is now known as EarlGray 19:37:27 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-98.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:39:12 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:39:26 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@177.103.136.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:40:09 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.39.207] has joined #lisp 19:40:17 VieiraN [~VieiraN@177.103.136.5] has joined #lisp 19:43:47 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:44:51 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@199.180.99.47] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:45:13 lemoinem [~swoog@199.180.99.170] has joined #lisp 19:49:11 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:50:03 Bike [~Glossina@63-230-161-149.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:03 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-114.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-114.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:55:22 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@178-55-57-180.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:55:53 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:04:07 YokYok [~david@vmailbox.org] has joined #lisp 20:05:33 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:09:30 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-80-40.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:09:33 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-80-40.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:09:35 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-10-200.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 20:10:16 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-10-200.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 20:10:52 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:12:47 wtf 20:13:30 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:13:32 nickserv-password-alist is a list of a pair, and auto-join-alist is a list of pairs.....yet the one is getting accepted the other not ? 20:13:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-64-29.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 20:13:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-64-29.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 20:13:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 20:16:04 MoALTz__ [~no@92.8.228.0] has joined #lisp 20:18:05 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-098-024-165-246.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 20:18:11 -!- Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:18:24 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-122-250.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:19:24 TimKack` [~user@c-2ec295b6-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 20:19:34 malaparte [~P@124-149-65-154.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 20:19:36 -!- antonv [5d7d3142@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:19:39 -!- superflit [~superflit@75-166-69-218.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: superflit] 20:19:56 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-098-024-165-246.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:25 -!- TimKack [~user@c-2ec20fcf-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:20:28 -!- phrixos [~foo@unaffiliated/phrixos] has quit [Quit: phrixos] 20:20:31 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:38 Does anybody know how to force drakma:http-request to return ASCII (currently getting an octal vector)? 20:20:46 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-69.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:21:29 paul0 [~paul0@201.47.45.226.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 20:21:42 malaparte: :external-format-out, iirc. 20:21:46 <|3b|> i think you can add types to drakma:*text-content-types* 20:22:02 Sounds like a header messup. 20:22:10 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-69.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:22:26 <|3b|> by default only returns text/whatever as a string 20:22:58 Looks like there's a way to force things the other way, to always return an octet vector. (-: 20:23:10 Odin-: some RPC style thing return utf-8 encoded data, but don't specify any mime type. It's conveninent to decode it asap. 20:23:40 And external-format-in only applies for text responses. 20:23:42 It's an xml rss feed, without any extension in the url. 20:23:55 Thanks btw. Have a few leads now. 20:24:10 Just give up and either octets-to-string it, or see if your XML parser will take an octet stream. 20:24:14 malaparte: I'd always ask for octets and decode with babel (or octet-to-string) 20:24:34 oOoOoo! octet to string 'eh? ***checks it out**** 20:24:39 if it's going to be passed directly to cxml, no need to decode it either. 20:25:05 pkhuong: Well, the fact that it's done doesn't mean it's not a messup. :p 20:25:13 *malaparte* is a total lisp newbie and really appreciates the help :-) 20:25:17 In fact, it's probably more robust that way. 20:25:36 Odin-: not convinced. It is binary data, it just happens to be decodable, like HTTP. 20:26:09 -!- TimKack` is now known as TimKack 20:26:48 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-20-245.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:35 Also, slime mysteriously stops showing possible completions and toggling M-x slime-autodoc-mode does not bring it back. Any ideas? 20:28:22 malaparte: is your lisp busy computing stuff? 20:28:27 nope 20:28:31 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:28:58 I assume it isn't, it shows "CL-USER>" 20:29:10 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-240-217-131.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:29:50 autodoc isn't completions, fwiw, it's the arglist display in the minibuffer 20:31:18 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-192-69.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:31:21 Yes. That is what has mysteriously disappeared. 20:31:51 pkhuong: Binary data that's not decodable is somewhat ... useless. The reason content-type exists is to tell you how to decode it. 20:32:58 Odin-: "decodable to text in a well-known format" If the binary protocol specifies that, not sure the content-type is useful. 20:33:29 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:33:34 Thanks, flexi-streams:octets-to-string is doing the job nicely :-) 20:34:59 pkhuong: Then the binary protocol should be specified as the content-type. But that's not a question of "how to solve this programming issue", but a "what's proper engineering" question that's ultimately a subjective question. 20:35:16 Odin-: indeed. 20:38:15 Although, of course, the solution of having the HTTP layer just throw the (payload) octets at you and leaving the decoding of that payload entirely to the client code is probably the cleanest. 20:38:37 But would lead to an awful lot of octets-to-string calls in the common (HTML) case... 20:40:10 Odin-: but RPC-type workloads that just exploit HTTP for communications is different. 20:40:38 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:41:34 *malaparte* Is a newbie, but hasn't yet figured out why people don't just use lisp all the freaking time for everything. 20:41:42 *malaparte* goes to get a coffee 20:43:47 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44:06 malaparte: I have often wondered that 20:45:32 vervic [~vervic@188-23-202-233.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:45:51 I mainly don't understand why people use java... ugh 20:47:58 -!- vervic [~vervic@188-23-202-233.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Client Quit] 20:52:46 vervic [~vervic@188-23-202-233.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:01:42 -!- easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has quit [Quit: Outta here?] 21:01:51 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 21:02:48 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:03:38 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-235-166.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:20 trebor_home [~email@dslb-178-004-027-091.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:30 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-227-97.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:05:37 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:06:29 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:09:56 malaparte, Borbus: the libraries available for java can make it worth using the language. the solid amount of programmers available for it, and the fact that they tend to be replacable to some extent make it an interesting decision for management (which generally doesn't know what they're deciding at that time, so they mainly minimize risk) 21:12:12 Still, there are plenty of languages on the JVM. Clojure, for instance... 21:12:32 madnificent: But Java is just such a bad idea for so many scenarios, I often wonder why it's used so much in the educational setting 21:12:40 *madnificent* mumbles something about Clojure and it being redundant 21:12:51 Or Scala or whatever-you-like. 21:12:56 borkman: Clojure, Groovy, Scala, Gosu, to name a few 21:13:13 madnificent: Redundant of what? 21:13:34 TDJACR: given that one of my teachers asked me how i would do my project without variables, i'd say that they probabl lack knowledge of lisp. 21:13:36 -!- hagish [~hagish@p57BCF9FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:13:36 What I can't get over is that it seems easier to write javascript IN LISP! than it does to write javascript in javascript. I mean. I am blown away. 21:14:04 TDJACR: no reason to make another language, i don't see what they're trying to solve, aside from the fact that people assume common lisp has issues. 21:14:08 borkman: ABCL too 21:14:19 madnificent: What level of education was that at, if you don't mind my asking? 21:14:31 *malaparte* wonders if there are any other awesome examples of Lisp writing into another language where it is easier than writing language X 21:14:38 TDJACR: ir. computer science 21:14:53 madnificent: ir? 21:15:14 malaparte: I guess prolog would be a case, Erlang too (there's a lisp layer ontop of Erlang already available, Erlisp IIRC) 21:15:18 TDJACR: civil engineering. i must say that that's the most extreme question i had received. 21:15:25 dim: wowowowowowowowow 21:15:36 hagish [~hagish@p57BCF9FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:42 sorry it's lfe, https://github.com/rvirding/lfe 21:16:01 LFE, Lisp Flavoured Erlang, is a lisp syntax front-end to the Erlang compiler. Code produced with it is compatible with "normal" Erlang code. An LFE evaluator and shell is also included. 21:16:09 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@92.8.228.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:16:15 madnificent: Was this at uni/secondary school? 21:16:24 uni 21:17:10 dim: any other examples? I need to know all the things! 21:17:11 kocatepe [kocatepe@176.239.22.219] has joined #lisp 21:17:29 it's not like I know about them, go find some better sources already :) 21:17:41 :) 21:17:42 TDJACR: it wasn't a professor though. so you know... things can go wrong. but regardless, very few would have known (if any) that it is a compiled language. and very very few will have known that it had on OO system. especially the latter is considered important for teaching. 21:17:45 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:50 malaparte: I'd guess cl-lex and cl-yacc could be used here as examples too 21:18:03 madnificent: Ah okay. I was going to say that for a secondary school teacher who soley follows an AP or IB style curriculum, they would likely be limited to java knowledge. I know at the secondary school I went to, the CompSci teacher was actually a calc teacher who learned Java 21:18:28 madnificent: I read something about unis going away from OO in freshman year 21:18:47 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:19:02 chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has joined #lisp 21:19:03 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has quit [Changing host] 21:19:03 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 21:19:04 madnificent: a french teacher claims that Scheme is better than CL as a first language for teaching, because it's not so rich (API, features, etc) so that you still have traction to write basic code yourself 21:19:04 *malaparte* Is thinking that if he used CL for his programming languages course, shit would have been alot easier 21:19:29 What do you guys think of Haskell 21:19:33 apparently he's using bigloo scheme 21:19:55 dim: in brussels, they use scheme in the first year. i guess it makes sense. i don't particularly mind it. 21:20:45 Scheme seems nice because you can learn it in about 10 minutes and then it gets out of the way 21:21:09 I learnt with Ada and in parallel some easy 8-bits ASM, I would have loved to have CL first. I did enjoy Ada though. 21:21:14 TDJACR: it takes the completely different route than lisp in terms of dynamic extensability (as in, at runtime). aside from that i diskliked their object system. next to that, and the odd syntax i had some fun in it. 21:21:15 I think assembly is good for beginners 21:21:26 Not necessarily x86 21:21:43 Borbus: i think you are wrong 21:21:47 it was called micro3, the thing they had us play with, and it came with some kind of emulator 21:21:48 Knuth's fake assembly? 21:21:53 mmix? 21:21:56 MMIX 21:21:58 (M)MIX yeah 21:21:59 Interesting. Personally, I'm still trying to wrap my head around functional languages. It's weird to use them after being primarily a Python and Java user. 21:22:06 I think Borbus is right that ASM is important 21:22:07 MIXAL actually 21:22:18 Is the assembly language, MIX is the architecture 21:22:24 then you can have a term project to write a CL compiler targetting the ASM you were presented 21:22:29 dim: it is irrelevant for beginners 21:22:33 not at all 21:22:41 depends on what you're trying to teach them of course 21:22:42 How about going for an assembly language for one of those small microcontroller project kits? 21:23:01 MMIXAL and MIXAL are completely different, though :) 21:23:25 For pure computer science, it's probably not necessary, but for programming I think it's essential to learn it near the beginning 21:23:31 Texas Instruments have a microcontroller with a simple assembler, similar to knuthian assembler, I've **heard**. 21:23:58 ahah, https://gist.github.com/2316075 21:24:10 DCPU-16 is the new ASM, kids :) 21:24:28 Oh dear. This is getting out of hand. Awesome. 21:24:30 and that gist is a CL compiler for it, it seems 21:24:33 dim: it is exactly as relevant is being able to build your own cpu. in theory i should be capable of doing so. and sometimes it's handy to know how data is sent through and what caches will operate when. it's even fun to know how you could, in theory, make the cpu more capable for your goals (or at least more minimalistic), but it is -in no way- important for a complete beginner to programming to have any recollection of 21:24:33 things. it is important to learn how to structure and interpret applications. how to build them and how to make them better. for a novice, i'd agree 21:24:41 Basically I think bottom up learning is best: learn ASM, notice how annoying it can be for many (most) tasks you actually want to do, see the need for higher level languages, compilers etc. 21:25:05 dim: you need to learn and read code 21:25:08 madnificent: you're talking practical skills when school is there mainly for education, being computer educated means knowing about ASM 21:25:18 But get a sense that at each higher level you necessarily lose some power, but gain some productivity 21:25:20 pkhuong: in this case I'm yet to read it :) 21:25:57 dim: and there is a different to what you should expect from a beginner and what you should expect from a novice student. don't go troubling their brain with fiddly details when they're trying to grasp the big scheme of things. 21:26:14 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@201.53.12.75] has joined #lisp 21:26:16 Far too many java/C++ programmers think the compiler is magic and that's bad 21:26:22 -!- tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-20-245.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:26:49 madnificent: again, I did Ada and ASM in parallel and I enjoyed it. 21:27:02 Borbus: well the compiler and the computer are magic, but the point of a programmer is to become a good sorcerer, ie. to know the magic for what it is: sufficiently advanced science. 21:27:03 imho kids should be taught forth 21:27:10 dim: it isn't just about fun, it is about use and making sure they can learn fast. 21:27:29 I'm really glad I learned MIX(AL) too becasue it uses self modifying code which is actually from before my time... 21:27:34 Borbus: those who don't understand the science are doomed to cargo spell casting. 21:27:41 madnificent: no. it's about educating them, learning fast is not a goal, I don't think so, learning solid basis is more important. 21:27:47 madnificent: so it's all down to goals 21:28:01 You want self-modifying code, nifty number theory and brain-melting micro-optimisations? Play corewar. 21:28:15 Borbus: under that reasoning, you must first learn how to build hardware to implement an algorithm. and when you want to do that, you should first get a grasp on how it can be done, so you must first learn transistors. ah, but that requires chemistry. the barier stating "asm is important" is an artificial one, and it is likely not the correct one. 21:28:21 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-192-69.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:22 not tongue in cheek, seriously.. It teaches several concepts at once. That memory consist of both bytes and words/cells. That these are addressed by integer indexes. That word and address size may be different. That stuff in structures and arrays is allocated in cosecutive cells.. The concept of stack, and compilation, and such 21:28:44 madnificent: with enough time I would actually 21:28:50 madnificent: Transistors isn't chemistry, it's quantum physics! 21:28:52 its as good as teaching assembler to give enough understanding of how CPU's work, but introduces more high-level concepts alongside 21:28:59 You have to draw the line somewhere and I don't think ASM is unreasonably low 21:29:08 nyef: >:P 21:29:17 Borbus: but would you want to start there? 21:29:29 ngz [~user@103.69.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:40 madnificent: I wish I had 21:29:52 nyef: statistics soon enough, physicist friends of mine tell me :\ 21:29:57 Borbus: are you trolling or are you serious? 21:30:14 At ASM or quantum physics? I meant ASM 21:30:15 madnificent: yes, indeed, you have to learn physics and chemistry. It's assumed it's in the general culture you've been taught in school and high school, before reaching university and learning about things like CS. 21:30:48 *malaparte* oh noes! But we need a computer to learnz about Quantum Phyziks and Chamstry 21:31:32 Learning things in the order they were discovered seems most intuitive to me 21:31:36 Yes. That could make for an interesting pedagogical game, where each teacher tries to show how their matter is the most fundamental and how it explains the other matters :-) 21:31:41 pjb: i seriously doubt that everyone here that assumes that ASM is a necessary skill for a *beginner*, knows enough chemistry to build a basic transistor. 21:31:51 Borbus: sure, let's learn about phlogistons first. 21:32:10 madnificent: you may not know exactly how to do it, but you should know the principle and have an idea of what's involved. 21:32:20 But indeed, it'd be preferable to be able to do it. 21:32:34 Why don't student build transistors in high school? 21:32:38 students 21:32:38 interestingly, that'd put lambda calculus very early in the course plan... Sometime before even using a computer. 21:32:42 pjb: i think it is irrelevant. you could make the transistor in another way, it would be just as good. why would you need to know the exact process? 21:32:47 pkhuong: yes, that's maths. 21:32:55 point is: you pick a level of abstraction and start reasoning on that. 21:33:11 pjb: kids nowadays need to get some CS background/education at about the same time they're learning physics and chemistry, I'd venture 21:33:21 madnificent: furthermore, some students learn better with a hands on approach. 21:33:43 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-386360.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:54 The main problem I've seen around me when studying, was that people didn't see why they were being taught what they had to learn. 21:33:56 madnificent: ASM is indeed necessary if you want to have some understanding about what happens, it's not forcibly necessary to be good at high-level programming, but undoubtly will help you --- I fail to see any downside 21:34:12 I believe in JFDI : Yield the force. 21:34:16 pjb: yes, very much so, hence learning in the order of discovery 21:34:20 pjb: "we make electricity in a nuclear reactor, that's similar to a controlled nuclear bomb. we don't have the budget for a controlled nuclear reaction, so as a school project you'll make a nuclear bomb." :D 21:34:48 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:34:53 I remember learning calculus in maths at school.. we were taught how to "differentiate" (take down power, multiply by old power) 21:35:09 That's not learning anything really though, it's just being taught an algorithm 21:35:34 You only really understand when you apply it to the thing Newton invented it for 21:35:44 Borbus: sounds like you learnt an important lesson 21:36:16 *malaparte* back to the REPL 21:36:27 madnificent: would be enough to visit the nearby nuclear power plant. 21:36:28 dim: as with anything: it takes time to learn and master. you have to pick what you'll learn. i think a sound theoretical understanding of algorithms, composability and code complexity is more important than the concept of a stack. with the concept of a stack, you'll be able to microoptimize an O(n^2) sorting algorithm. with the concepts of complexity, you'll do the same in O(n.log(n)) 21:36:33 hands-on approach is best.. You can always detect ivory tower educated programmer..They know esotheric concepts and try to apply singleton-this factor-that to everything. "but why writing too much to A screws up B?" when A and B are consecutively declared varibales (no matter if global or stack) 21:36:43 Borbus: and yet, integration was discoeverd and understood before differentiation. 21:37:06 i meant they have no idea on how code actually translates into hardware 21:37:07 Well.. it was summation 21:37:35 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-230-161-149.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:37:36 superflit [~superflit@75-166-69-218.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:07 -!- TDJACR [~TDJACR@unaffiliated/tdjacr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:38:16 madnificent: we're talking past each other 21:38:26 Borbus: no, we're talking newton or leibniz discovering integration. 21:38:37 TDJACR [~TDJACR@unaffiliated/tdjacr] has joined #lisp 21:39:03 madnificent: one of my most instructive extrascholar experience, was when I visited the workplace of a friend: the radio emetors of RTL. They had big electric generators, antenas so powerful you could hear the radio from the gutters when raining, and instead of cables, they had to use tubes because the density of electrons was so big that they would make full cylinders break. 21:39:07 maxm: I and my 10 years in higher education are sorry for your stereotypes. 21:39:50 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 21:39:58 dim: it is an optimization. you need to pick one of two battles: ASM, or something else in the curriculum of a beginning programmer. i'd say knowledge about code complexity is more important than ASM. 21:40:17 madnificent: you need both. 21:40:21 madnificent: you're not willing to understand the context in which I think ASM is useful, it seems 21:40:21 You mean algorithm complexity? 21:40:27 Or problem complexity even 21:40:36 Borbus: algorithm 21:40:52 dim: willing is not the correct term :) 21:41:17 pick your poison 21:41:20 pjb: depends on what you state a beginning programmer is :) 21:41:25 madnificent: and remember that algorithm complexity is computed in function of axiomatic operations: you could define an O(n) algorithm in terms of calls to MEMBER and APPEND and be happy. 21:41:31 I'm about to call it a day so I won't spend more time on it, sorry about that 21:41:55 Yeah.. personally I got an intuititon for algorithm complexity long before I learned the formalities of what an efficient algorithm was and the big-o notation etc. 21:42:09 pjb: yes, and with that you've learned a more important lesson than what's current in our current architecture. 21:42:21 Problem complexity (NP-completeness) isn't very intuitive though 21:42:31 Quite unintuitive in fact 21:42:50 you don't have to teach asm, but imho line oriented basic with goto and gosub is not that bad 21:43:30 I think if you tell someone who has programmed for a year or so and implemented efficient algorithms that it's almsot certain they cannot solve travelling salesman efficiently they will be very surprised 21:43:45 line numbers map to addresses, and the way gosub is explaned how it saves the old line number it came from, then does "goto" to the given one, then comes back, is pretty much how actual CPU work 21:43:47 It's pretty damn important though.. so that they don't waste their time trying 21:43:52 maxm: the simplified basic constructs of how code is executed seems to be something that's at least more sane than ASM. 21:43:59 madnificent: ASM is very very good for learning binary, registers, 2-complement, code pointer and memory access, understanding that there's a real memory hierarchy (register, cache lines, RAM) and all, and you need to be exposed to that somewhen 21:44:12 kid who learned programming with line-number oriented basic, will write a working compiler for a stack/register VM faster, then kid educated to write in scheme 21:44:15 Borbus: why not? Solving NP-hard problems efficiently is what I spend my days doing. 21:44:55 Depends what you mean by solving 21:45:02 Borbus: http://www.tsp.gatech.edu/concorde.html <- these guys spent decades. 21:45:06 dim: the memory hierarchy can be understood without any issues without the knowledge of ASM. the amount of time it takes for a ram chip to get a page from ram to the cache and from there into the registers is something that isn't defined in ASM. 21:45:14 Borbus: finding provably optimal solutions. 21:45:33 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:38 madnificent: I'm just saying that doing ASM helped me understand those things 21:46:54 Well, assembler is fun in general (exclude ix86). 21:46:57 it's like being told and playing with it 21:47:13 and yes it was not x86 asm 21:47:23 that, i can understand. but it doesn't seem necessary to me, at first. but i grant you that it will certainly help. 21:47:42 pkhuong: yes but it's quite different to solving a problem in P obviously 21:47:55 I'm not saying necessary to understand, I'm saying necessary as a cultural background, as education 21:47:59 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-69.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:48:02 Implement cons, car, cdr and cond in assembler and then program in lisp :-) 21:48:05 and I'm saying useful at certain things, while at it 21:48:18 -!- TDJACR [~TDJACR@unaffiliated/tdjacr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:48:37 pjb: I saw a very nice blog post about just that not too long ago, implementing Lisp on some 80s machine, it was an excellent read 21:48:38 Or just implement lambda in assembler. 21:48:49 I'd like to find it again but lacks google fu just now 21:49:09 Borbus: how? Heck, I often solve problems that are in P by re-expressing them as NP-hard problems that I can ship to pre-existing solvers. 21:49:10 driving a motorcycle is something that may be useful to them, yet we choose not to learn them that. the question is: "is it worth the time" 21:49:11 Isn't the minimum set of function more than that? 21:49:22 -!- ludston [~user@CPE-121-216-33-118.lnse1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:49:24 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-69.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:50:23 TDJACR [~TDJACR@unaffiliated/tdjacr] has joined #lisp 21:50:40 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 21:50:42 pjb: found it, http://ahefner.livejournal.com/20528.html 21:50:48 -!- vervic [~vervic@188-23-202-233.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: vervic] 21:51:24 -!- TDJACR [~TDJACR@unaffiliated/tdjacr] has quit [Client Quit] 21:51:28 who was trying to do ASM in lisp earlier? 21:51:55 madnificent: have a read here http://ahefner.livejournal.com/20528.html :) 21:52:13 dim: that's not a lisp either. 21:52:47 pkhuong: I don't know what you want me to be saying here 21:52:53 dim: nive. 21:52:56 nice 21:53:03 dim: do you honestly believe that that's the single greatest thing heffner has done for us? ^_^ it was a fun article to read though. i believe that such knowledge of basic constructs and how to combine them programmatically (as is common for lispers) is an important trait. 21:53:43 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-192-69.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:54:02 dim: that's not a lisp targetting the NES, it's a nifty macro assembler written in lisp. 21:54:21 yes, and? 21:54:42 what makes you think I wanted to paint that as a lisp? 21:54:59 I'm confused (and tired, so maybe that's not from you) :) 21:55:10 You said you saw a thing about immplementing Lisp on an 80s machine 21:55:13 *madnificent* is fairly sure we're not all participating in the same argument 21:55:29 I think it started with 23:22 then you can have a term project to write a CL compiler targetting the ASM you were presented 21:55:30 that blog post is not "implementing Lisp on some 80s machine", just like that gist wasn't "a CL compiler for [DCPU-16]" 21:55:40 *maxm* did not know lisp back then, but I was mind blown after seeing working x86 assembler defined in 2 pages of forth code 21:55:46 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-187-216-209.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:55:47 pkhuong: I'm yet to read that gist, you know 21:55:55 it's just what I understood from the google link 21:56:06 spent 2 months or so bootstrapping my own forth from scratch immediately after 21:56:19 maxm: that's what forth does to you. 21:57:05 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.39.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:57:05 pkhuong: oh, I see where you're coming from now 21:57:18 yeah he implemented an asm in lisp, not a lisp in asm 21:57:39 maybe I'm confused enough to be only good at sleeping, now :) 21:57:59 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:58:10 TDJACR [~TDJACR@unaffiliated/tdjacr] has joined #lisp 21:58:11 dim: for bonus points, don't bootstrap your lisp writing assembler in emacs, but by keying in it in binary. 21:58:33 Cray Style. 21:58:37 Using something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PDP-1_control_board.jpg 21:59:08 they knew how to have fun those days 22:00:21 -!- TDJACR [~TDJACR@unaffiliated/tdjacr] has quit [Client Quit] 22:00:53 TDJACR [~TDJACR@unaffiliated/tdjacr] has joined #lisp 22:04:23 dim: yes. The power switch is funnily close to single-step and similar to it 22:04:34 vervic [~vervic@188-23-202-233.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:05:17 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-32-55.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 22:05:54 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@201.53.12.75] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:00 (but actually those were magnetic core memories, so power off wasn't catastrophic). 22:09:22 -!- TDJACR [~TDJACR@unaffiliated/tdjacr] has quit [Quit: One Last Time] 22:09:29 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:10:33 -!- two- [~textual@67.23.193.215] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:13:46 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 22:15:57 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-90-138.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:19 -!- ngz [~user@103.69.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:18:39 core memory was annoying from security pov when you had to service it, sometimes ;) 22:19:42 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:22:12 TimKack` [~user@c-2ec2a1f0-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 22:23:08 -!- TimKack [~user@c-2ec295b6-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:24:20 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:37 -!- paul0 [~paul0@201.47.45.226.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 22:31:09 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-240-114.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:32:43 sausage2 [~gaerga@unaffiliated/sausage2] has joined #lisp 22:32:47 Hi! 22:33:01 So I want to make this cock sucking machine! how do I do that in LISP? 22:33:12 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@187-15-149-253.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 22:33:21 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o p_l 22:33:21 first you have to define various options 22:33:50 TDJACR [~TDJACR@unaffiliated/tdjacr] has joined #lisp 22:33:58 :speed (fast slow) etc... not sure what would be a good name for the force/amount of suction 22:34:52 true that! 22:34:53 -!- vervic [~vervic@188-23-202-233.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: vervic] 22:34:57 p_1 so are you cranky now? 22:35:04 gonna ban me? gonna +q me? 22:35:37 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 22:36:27 just flipped the master weapons switch. Rest will depend on you as it happens, there's something called teledildonics 22:39:42 damn it. 22:39:59 too intelligent channel to troll. What to expect from a lisp channel 22:41:10 *maxm* just had an idea for a porn startup 22:42:46 maxm: teledildonics probably aren't too viable yet, at least outside of rather fringe market 22:43:08 -!- tiglog [~topeak@106.3.63.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:44:40 Oh, CLISP. *sigh* 22:45:18 p_l: teledildonics is the future. 22:45:36 And the future is NOW. 22:45:40 p_l: watch "Surrogates". 22:46:45 ngz [~user@103.69.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:50 pjb: haven't yet. But I'm not saying it's ot the future 22:50:37 vervic [~vervic@188-23-202-233.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:57:42 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:56 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:59:18 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 22:59:22 -!- lboat [~lboat@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.3] 22:59:40 lboat [~lboat@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:37 *maxm* realizes google statistical brute force machine now has a job of matching "teledildonics" with his other searches to come up with stuff 23:02:43 well on the 2nd thought its not that worse then any of my other searches 23:03:40 -!- kocatepe [kocatepe@176.239.22.219] has quit [] 23:03:58 kocatepe [kocatepe@176.239.22.219] has joined #lisp 23:04:30 maxm: funny thing - the scare about "web history"... the directions posted by many a site to "disable" it actually enrolled you in for the first time, because it's *disabled* by *default* 23:05:20 -!- kocatepe [kocatepe@176.239.22.219] has quit [Client Quit] 23:05:59 in the end its like this, by time you 30+, you already left so many traces in "the system", that worrying about google or amazon or such, is a drop in the bucket 23:06:53 to avoid it, one has to go full retard like crazy right wing folks, or like rms and restrict yourself from society 23:07:00 maxm: actually, the big traces are completely elsewhere, and completely silent... bills, various shopping, etc 23:07:14 yea thats what I'm talking about 23:07:21 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o p_l 23:07:58 "Hunh, this is weird, this file is not in my style at all  must not have touched it in a while." *editing* "Oh wait, this is the CLISP source." 23:18:13 -!- magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:19:48 magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has joined #lisp 23:19:52 Bacteria [~Bacteria@2001:388:608c:946:71e4:3581:93fc:add4] has joined #lisp 23:24:05 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-187-216-209.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:24:14 -!- hagish [~hagish@p57BCF9FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:24:22 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-043-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:26:00 -!- ngz [~user@103.69.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:42 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-098-024-165-246.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 23:29:21 -!- sausage2 [~gaerga@unaffiliated/sausage2] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 11.0/20120312181643]] 23:29:22 pnq [~nick@ACA32E71.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:13 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:38:45 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA32E71.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:38:58 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:40:37 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-187-216-209.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:41:32 pnq [~nick@ACA32E71.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:45:41 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-235-53.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:45:47 Hi 23:49:19 kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-28.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:49:44 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:49:57 Can one control where an implementation creates temporary files when compiling a form? For me on Windows, ACL is trying to create C:/temp.lisp, which is denied. 23:50:29 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:51:06 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:51:08 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 23:53:35 Quadrescence: yes. 23:53:45 [SLB] [~slabua@host121-61-dynamic.61-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:53:45 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host121-61-dynamic.61-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 23:53:45 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 23:53:56 -!- vervic [~vervic@188-23-202-233.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: vervic] 23:54:06 clhs compile-file 23:54:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp_fi.htm 23:54:20 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:54:25 Quadrescence: (compile-file "src.lisp" :output-file "/tmp/src.fasl") 23:55:04 lilin [~lilin@116.19.167.215] has joined #lisp 23:55:09 So, I'm thinking of getting a VPS in an effort to un-shittify my web presence. (Right now I have an extremely cheap static site host but that's very boring, I want a Linux + SBCL + hunchentoot + my old dynamic web framework stuff that I'll clean up.) Any recommendations? 23:55:14 A number of years ago I was with slicehost which was pretty great but now they've been acquired by rackspace and I'm kinda wary of them... I'm thinking of going with linode, formerly the "obvious competitor" of slicehost. 23:55:18 I guess I need at least a 512MB to run a dynamic site on SBCL, right? 23:55:52 pjb, But I'm not sure how that relates to SLIME; how to get C-c-c to invoke COMPILE-FILE with a different output-file 23:56:12 Quadrescence: I'm not usre how youc question relates to SLIME! 23:56:59 Quadrescence: but in either case, CL has clhs, slime has its fine manual, asdf has its fine manual. They all explain how to direct where binary files should be created. 23:57:21 Rackspace works if it fits you, they seem to have better pricing than EC2. Linode works as well 23:57:53 someone suggested a really good German company here a few months ago 23:58:04 for VPS 23:58:50 hetzner 23:58:53 I've been meaning to ask, because I will be changing providers soon 23:59:13 that them 23:59:28 awesome, cheers fe[nl]ix