00:00:31 is that ok? 00:00:56 Posterdati: ok, this bug is unrelated to what you have.. You can avoid it, but doing (ql:quickload :flexi-streams) first, and then doing (trace laod) and loading your system 00:01:39 -!- havocjoseph [~jbane@66-55-201-98.gwi.net] has left #lisp 00:01:44 *maxm* notices debugging stuff is like catnip to himself, juts can't stop :-) 00:02:16 worked! 00:02:34 ok, now see if it actually loads the 'fasl for file where diode-1 is defined in 00:04:00 no, models.lisp is not loaded 00:04:54 ok, then go up the first thing it loads should be .asd file 00:04:59 is your file is actually in there? 00:05:05 yes 00:05:10 ah wait 00:05:28 acutally first do (asdf:find-system :your-system), then inspect it and see if (cl-source-file "model") is in there 00:05:32 clhs let 00:05:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm 00:05:52 it will be models.fasl not models.lisp 00:06:35 maxm: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129207 00:06:52 yes, no models.fasl is loaded 00:07:00 from .cache etc right? 00:07:27 I mean loaded from quickload 00:07:48 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-126-229.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:05 ok, hold on, do (find-system :circuit-solver) 00:08:09 you know how to inspect? 00:09:04 CL-USER> (asdf:find-system :circuit-solver) 00:09:04 # 00:09:44 -!- two- [~textual@67.23.193.215] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:09:44 maxm: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129207#1 00:09:59 ok I got it 00:10:03 you have .bak directory 00:10:11 notice teh absolute-pathname 00:10:20 yes I'm seeingit 00:10:21 yes I'm seeing it 00:10:24 what is it? 00:10:37 it loads your .asd file from the .bak directory 00:10:47 naaaaaaaa 00:10:48 you probably have your entirye Development/lisp added 00:10:56 yes 00:11:26 felideon [~felideon@184.105.242.75] has joined #lisp 00:11:38 and it finds the .asd file in the circuit-solver.bak first, before one in simply circuit-solver 00:11:59 you can't make .bak directories, coz if there are duplicate .asd files in the tree, it will just use first one it finds 00:12:56 .sbclrc --> http://paste.lisp.org/display/129207#2 00:13:05 how do you tell quicklisp where to find your system? I assume you added ~/Development/lisp to ql:*local-project-directories* ? 00:13:30 oounr [~oounr@188-194-255-32-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:13:47 CL-USER> ql:*local-project-directories* 00:13:47 (#P"/home/angel/quicklisp/local-projects/") 00:13:47 CL-USER> 00:14:57 hello, in a nutshell, could you tell the the 'recommended' way to have a solid 'live' CL documentation inside emacs, i'm getting a bit confused because of all the different approaches (dpans2texi, texinfo rendition, HyperSpec, Comman Lisp ANSI Standard ...)? 00:15:23 i would prefer a SLIME-based solution, of course, but that's the recommended way anyway, i suppose 00:15:53 oounr: i often use the C-c C-d d and C-c C-d h bindings 00:16:25 oounr: also, quicklisp contains repl-utilities which allows you to write things like (readme packagename), which is rather nice. 00:17:19 Posterdati: ok, I'm confused then, do you have link from ~/quicklisp/local-projects to ~/Developmet/lisp ? 00:17:36 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:17:51 no 00:18:02 Posterdati: and also is ~/Development/lisp/circuit-solver.bak the right directory? or it should be ~/Development/lisp/circuit-solver/ (without .the bak) 00:18:20 ~/Development/lisp/circuit-solver/ 00:18:34 ok, then simply move the .bak directory out of there 00:18:38 my problem is that i don't know which resource i should use for documenation (Is HyperSpec recommended?) and how to integrate it into Emacs so that i have an offline copy 00:18:43 madnificent: see ^ 00:18:49 it picks up your bak directory before the real one 00:18:50 maxm: there's a .old too 00:18:53 yes 00:18:54 that too 00:18:59 yes 00:19:10 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:19:26 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 00:19:37 move them out, I still don't understand how it finds them, you must have the Development/lisp somewhere.. like asdf (:tree ) thing 00:19:56 *maxm* actually got bitten by the same thing a few months ago, confused the hell out of me 00:20:02 should have remembered it sooner :-) 00:20:19 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-186788.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:28 anyway, this concludes this investigative session, cause found, mystery solved 00:20:37 -!- dryman [~dryman@OpenISDM.iis.sinica.edu.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:21:12 maxm: it works! 00:21:15 maxm: thanks 00:21:29 CL-USER> (mapcar 'symbol-package (find-all-symbols "DIODE-0")) 00:21:29 (#) 00:21:37 CL-USER> (mapcar 'symbol-package (find-all-symbols "DIODE-0")) 00:21:37 (#) 00:21:53 dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-184-119.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:12 maxm: so sbcl is working at least 00:22:20 maxm: good! 00:23:18 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-108-200-140-133.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:44 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 00:23:55 maxm: I don't recal it, but I used quicklisp function to add the path 00:24:24 Xach: how about if (directory **/*.asd) finds two asd files with same name, give error instead of using 1st one.. I was bitten by this before, and now Posterati.. Ie cp -rp my-project my-project.bak, and it picks up .asd file from .bak dir first 00:24:38 oounr: for lisp standard code the CLHS is a good resource. you can also get it for offline browsing from quicklisp, i think. for external systems, it depends. most sytems have docstrings implemented, which means that you can basically access it through the repl (and as such, slime can hook into it) 00:25:09 maxm: you were very kind and got a lot of patience with me, thanks again 00:25:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-014.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:25:22 C-c C-d C-d on the symbol is the easiest way to see docstring for me 00:25:49 pjb: thanks to you too, you're my living lisp manpage :) 00:26:47 you people have to forgive me, but Lisp is so vast, c++ is not comparable 00:26:57 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-014.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 00:31:48 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-014.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:42:23 -!- homie 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#lisp 03:11:55 foopq [~AsIrcBotL@CPE602ad091f75b-CM602ad091f758.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:12:35 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-155-208.as43234.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:12:59 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-155-208.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:52 -!- NotADJ [~TDJACR@unaffiliated/tdjacr] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:19:55 TDJACR [~TDJACR@unaffiliated/tdjacr] has joined #lisp 03:20:26 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:21:38 -!- pnq [~nick@AC817B16.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:22:56 pnq [~nick@AC817B16.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 03:25:28 And now, the com.informatimago.common-lisp library comes with _documentation_! http://www.informatimago.com//develop/lisp/doc/ 03:28:38 -!- foopq [~AsIrcBotL@CPE602ad091f75b-CM602ad091f758.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:31:04 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:31:36 xjrn 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05:55:32 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 05:56:18 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 05:57:33 -!- FACEFOX-DOT-COM [~gfdffdfd@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:04:23 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: Out of this 3D] 06:07:21 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 06:08:32 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 06:08:57 nipra [~nipra@122.177.217.176] has joined #lisp 06:09:17 FACEFOX-DOT-COM [~gfdffdfd@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:56 yates [~user@nc-71-48-9-61.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:11 is clisp 2.49 ok for building sbcl? 06:12:37 INSTALL says "only some versions" 06:14:54 it *seems* to be running ok with clisp 06:16:10 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.96.1] 06:17:35 ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-88-32.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:18:08 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[~gfdffdfd@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:25 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-175-14-176.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep, panic] 07:29:38 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 07:30:53 -!- FACEFOX-DOT-COM [~gfdffdfd@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:31:37 jigboot [~Inc0gnito@ip72-207-16-214.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:42 xecycle [~user@202.120.55.140] has joined #lisp 07:37:27 Can I convert a string to symbol without interning it into the current package? 07:37:44 (in Common Lisp) 07:37:50 (make-symbol string) 07:38:02 why do you want to do that? 07:38:11 Thanks. 07:38:33 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has joined #lisp 07:38:37 FACEFOX-DOT-COM [~gfdffdfd@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:38 I want to prepend some symbols with "$". 07:38:55 I am sick of NIGGERS! 07:39:03 That is why I joined Chimpout Forum! 07:39:14 You can visit the forum here! http://www.chimpout.com/forum 07:39:18 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o p_l 07:39:21 xecycle: are you sure that you know what you're doing? 07:39:21 We are not white supremacists! 07:39:22 -!- p_l has set mode +b *!*Inc0gnito@*.sd.sd.cox.net 07:39:23 -!- jigboot [~pl@089-101-208053.ntlworld.ie] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (jigboot) 07:39:30 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o p_l 07:39:56 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:39:56 stassats`: Yes. 07:40:07 -!- FACEFOX-DOT-COM [~gfdffdfd@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:40:15 i'm not sure 07:40:27 xecycle: if you simply want to make symbols with $ in front, just name write them like that 07:40:54 stassats`: I'm working with Maxima, where a maxima symbol corresponds to one in lisp with $ prepended. 07:40:54 (intern (concatenate 'string "$" "A")) might be what you want. 07:41:47 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 07:42:14 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:42:26 And it would be convenient for me if I could write (mlambda (omega t) #$cos(omega*t)). 07:42:54 Ah, missed a $. Should be #$cos(omega*t)$. 07:43:41 xecycle: so, you're writing a reader-macro that will transform code between #$$ into maxima calls? 07:43:56 p_l: No, this is already provided. 07:44:16 I'm just writing the mlambda macro. 07:44:29 ah 07:50:17 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:50:34 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:01 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:24 FACEFOX-DOT-COM [~gfdffdfd@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:08 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:57:52 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has joined #lisp 07:59:15 hi, has anyone gotten gambit-android-example to build? 07:59:29 unglue: I suspect #scheme might know 07:59:42 okay, thanks :) 08:01:10 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:05:00 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:08:25 benny` [~benny@i577A1175.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:11:02 -!- kornshell [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 08:11:56 kornshell [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has joined #lisp 08:16:37 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d142-179-78-231.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 08:19:36 _tca [~tca@thewired.me] has joined #lisp 08:22:08 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-385330.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 08:22:58 -!- harish_afk [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:27:47 make-symbol doesn't seem to do what I wanted. It generates #:$symbol, not the same as $symbol. 08:28:53 #: is there to show that it's uniterned 08:28:59 *uninterned 08:29:45 And it doesn't work. So I should use intern? Why. 08:29:58 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-165.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:32:08 harish [~harish@119.234.133.189] has joined #lisp 08:32:14 Hmm, after all intern works. Guess I should just forget about the intern problem. 08:32:53 xecycle: #: is reader macro for uninterned symbol (so the symbol-name is without it still) 08:33:50 p_l: I understand that, but the underlying code simply doesn't work with uninterned symbols. 08:35:24 I could reasonably guess maxima was never intended to be called from lisp, they thinks users will use the maxima syntax. 08:37:43 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 08:37:57 Ah. (eq (make-symbol "name") 'name) => nil. I'm afraid I was wrong. 08:38:19 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129209096.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 08:39:55 -!- harish [~harish@119.234.133.189] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:40:55 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.96.1] 08:42:54 INTERN should have been called MAKE-INTERNED-SYMBOL, probably, that way the difference between it and MAKE-SYMBOL would be more apparent 08:43:52 -!- oounr [~oounr@188-194-255-32-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:44:16 or perhaps MAKE-SYMBOL should have been defined to take an optional "package" argument 08:50:56 gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:e498:c030:eaea:2a66] has joined #lisp 08:58:01 -!- saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA120F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:59:08 -!- bobweaver [~bobweaver@ubuntu/member/bobweaver] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:06:10 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.56.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:11:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-165.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:13:29 -!- mel0on [1000@h-91-136.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:14:33 Levenson [~Levenson@193.110.239.168] has joined #lisp 09:14:49 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@193.110.239.168] has left #lisp 09:26:23 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 09:26:26 trigen [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has joined #lisp 09:26:57 strange_ [~behelit@c213-89-59-224.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:28:24 -!- xecycle [~user@202.120.55.140] has left #lisp 09:35:04 -!- strange_ [~behelit@c213-89-59-224.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:36:51 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 09:38:42 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.87] has joined #lisp 09:41:58 mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-hudd6-0-0-cust741.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:44:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-61-13.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 09:44:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-61-13.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 09:44:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:44:29 strange_ [~behelit@c-5eeaaaae-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 09:45:28 ykm [~ykm@182.237.190.48] has joined #lisp 09:52:15 Harag [~phil@dsl-243-193-187.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:54:12 -!- achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:58:18 Karl_H [~karlh@g228225180.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:59:07 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:00:04 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 10:00:21 Radium [~carbon@117.203.1.209] has joined #lisp 10:00:34 Hi. I could need a quick hint with the clozure cl repl on Linux. When invoked form the bash I can't navigate through the command history by pressing the arrow keys like i can on windows. Any tips, even if it is a stupid question? 10:01:01 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 10:04:58 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:05:21 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 10:09:24 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.1.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:11:07 use readline/rlwrap 10:11:20 or better, Emacs + SLIME 10:12:20 add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-1-86.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:12:53 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-197-9.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:13:30 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:14:24 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-74-181.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:14:32 daimrod: Thanks a lot. That is what I was looking for. I use Slime for projects but it is a little heavy for quick scripting in the shell. 10:14:51 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-153-69.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:16:08 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-140-93.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:16:53 -!- gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:e498:c030:eaea:2a66] has quit [Quit: Hhhhheeeeeeellllllllpppppppppppppppppppppp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!] 10:16:56 unless your shell is Emacs. :) 10:17:35 ok. I see my mistake ;) 10:17:45 minion: linedit? 10:17:46 linedit: Linedit is a portable line-editing console library for Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/linedit 10:17:52 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs78186070.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:18:18 it has things like tab completion 10:19:14 morning 10:19:18 well, afternoon 10:19:45 -!- ykm [~ykm@182.237.190.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:23:25 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-209.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:23:35 Does linedit work with ccl? I tried to load it via quicklisp and did (funcall (intern "INSTALL-REPL" :linedit) :wrap-current t) as described in the sbcl install instruction. 10:23:44 Did not work 10:24:24 "Did not work" 10:24:24 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010c62.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:31 very nice description of a problem 10:27:39 sorry: http://paste.lisp.org/+2RPA 10:28:08 seems to be unsupported :) 10:28:58 remove wrap-current 10:30:29 same error 10:32:06 but i think rlwrap will do the job. If you know the solution you find the help you would have needed: http://www.cliki.net/rlwrap ... 10:32:47 So again, thanks a lot. 10:32:53 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-165.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:33:55 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-165.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:35:54 francogrex [~user@109.130.127.179] has joined #lisp 10:36:57 it works on ccl, but somehow the loading of the ccl specific file got borked by asdf 10:37:09 -!- strange_ [~behelit@c-5eeaaaae-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:38:12 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:38:37 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:39:05 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 10:40:36 i think i got it 10:40:54 or not 10:45:20 looks like an ASDF bug 10:45:34 but this feature is not documented, so i've no idea how it's supposed to work 10:45:47 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 10:46:17 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-62.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:46:38 strange_ [~behelit@c-5eeaaaa4-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 10:46:48 hi 10:46:58 not documented in the code, in the manual it is, and it says "FIXME: such conditional compilation has been reported to be broken in 2009." 10:47:54 argh 10:48:12 nikodemus: can you just make it #+ccl and #+sbcl? 10:51:08 nikodemus: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129215 10:51:14 i have a (:port-file ...) implemented, that i was going to publish in madeira 10:51:46 i'll stick it into linedit.asd for now 10:51:46 much prettier 10:52:54 #+'s not particularly ugly, but is very easy 10:53:52 yeah, but it breaks system introspection 10:54:12 (packaging ops, etc) 10:55:45 if it were included into ASDF 10:56:29 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:56:52 fix pushed 10:57:04 (not tested on ccl, though) 10:59:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:02:36 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-1-86.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 11:07:42 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:08:07 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:12:00 Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.15.60] has joined #lisp 11:13:36 -!- Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.15.60] has quit [Client Quit] 11:15:22 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:16:15 hi 11:16:37 so, dynamic bindings available in threads, I'm back. :) 11:17:39 Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.15.60] has joined #lisp 11:18:09 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.127.179] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:19:58 ok so defvar against (declare (special *stats*)) changes nothing 11:20:13 my monitor thread is not seeing the modifications I did to *stats* from the main thread 11:20:22 -!- Karl_H [~karlh@g228225180.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:20:22 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 11:21:15 dim: dynamic bindings are thread local 11:21:34 araujo [~araujo@190.38.61.1] has joined #lisp 11:21:34 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.61.1] has quit [Changing host] 11:21:34 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 11:21:35 he is confused by the term binding I think 11:21:53 how do you go about sharing a global var then? 11:22:00 (defvar *foo* :global) (let ((*foo* :local)) (make-thread ...)) ; the thread sees :global 11:22:01 -!- Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:22:04 a CL var is either a lexical or a dynamic binding, right? 11:22:04 dim: bound means (setq *stats* 'whatever) will be visible in other threads... (let ((*stats* 'whatever)) ...) will not 11:22:25 I'm now doing defvar, not using let 11:22:26 the dynamic binding at its outermost level is global 11:22:26 (defvar *foo* :global) (setf *foo* :global2) ; all threads see the assignment 11:22:53 as in when there is no binding.. 11:23:08 (defvar *foo* :global) (let ((*foo* :local)) (setf *foo* :local2) (make-thread ...)) ; the thread sees :global 11:23:08 binding -> let or argument of lambda or such 11:23:23 here's how I start the lparallel kernel (let* ((lp:*kernel* (lp:make-kernel (1+ jobs) :bindings `((*standard-output* . ,*standard-output*) (*error-output* . ,*error-output*) (*stats* . ,*stats*)))) 11:23:42 your *stats* become thread local 11:24:03 global environment has bindings too, but i'll not argue the terminology 11:24:03 nikodemus: I have to read about that :global thing then 11:24:21 well you know what I mean 11:24:34 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 11:24:54 it seems intuitively obvious to me, wondering what language you programmed before :-) 11:25:08 nikodemus: what if the setf in your example happens in another threads? 11:26:03 dim: do you understand how special (aka dynamic) variables work? 11:26:17 I think I do, having done a lot of Elisp programming 11:26:30 well, a lot, my share at least :) 11:27:09 dim: so you understand how (let ((*special* :new)) ...) is visible during the dynamic scope of its body outside the lexical environment 11:27:16 yes 11:27:32 it so happens that I'm starting the monitor and the worker threads from that scope 11:27:44 dynamic scope does not get transferred with thread 11:27:47 what I don't know at all yet is how the scope extends to threads 11:28:00 dim: do you know how stack / activation records work? 11:28:44 maxm: apparently there's a :binding in lparallel to that end, which uses a facility provided by bordeaux-threads 11:28:49 dynamic context lives on the stack. when you make a new thread, that thread doesn't see /any/ of the dynamic context/bindings of its parent. it gets a new stack 11:29:46 nikodemus: yes, I though it would be this way, but maxm is talking to me about some variable that you can see from all threads 11:30:26 dim: lexical variables are visible to all threads that see the lexical scope 11:31:02 dim: if you never bind a defvar, then modifications to that via setf are globally visible 11:31:25 I'm using push here 11:32:06 (and I didn't bind it in any lexical scope, as far as I understand what lparallel:make-kernel does to its :bindings args) 11:32:10 before we confuse you farther, I think dim needs to establish a mental model of stack, scope and such.. Ie I'm not sure if there is some "gentle introduction on how computers work" that explains the simplest stack machine type VM and how stack pointer moves around, and stack frames and such 11:32:20 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:32:26 maxm: I'm ok there, really 11:32:43 :binding you give it is rewritten into (let ((*var* value) ....)) once it establishes its thread 11:32:44 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 11:32:51 I've been doing C, Erlang, Elisp, python, Java, SQL and some for more than 10 years now, so that's not where I'm lost if you ask me 11:32:55 so passing *stats* in :bindings, makes it thread local in the new thread 11:33:31 the whole idea of :bindings is to pass list of variables that should be made thread-local in dynamic scope of the new thread.. Otherwise they will remain global 11:33:42 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-385330.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:33:46 lparallel/bt evaluates the initialization forms of :bindings in the new thread 11:33:50 they are not to pass info to the thread, they are to establish thread's initial dynamic scope 11:34:01 so the defvar would automatically be part of the threads dynamic scope if I'm not explicitely adding them to their dynamic environment, because doing so will in fact add them to the lexical env? 11:34:11 yes 11:34:13 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-397779.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:34:20 dim: wait, what? 11:34:26 defvar is never about lexical 11:34:28 there's some serious confusion here 11:34:29 ah, I expected that, thanks :) 11:34:36 except the lexical part you got it 11:35:05 ok, so makes it thread local but still part of the dynamic environment 11:35:09 dim: what is it you want to do, exactly, but without reference to specific /way/ of doing it? 11:35:42 nikodemus: I want to be able to communicate data between threads upon request 11:35:51 when you shadow a globally defined variable, it creates a binding, and the binding is put into TLS 11:36:16 I have a "monitor" thread running which is maintaining some data, and I want to "publish" that data to a web frontend 11:36:39 stassats`: TLS being Thread Local S? 11:36:47 T L Storage 11:37:01 yes, think of dynamic variables as C pointer, that is stored in TLS of each thread 11:37:12 initially when thread is created, it points to global location 11:37:13 (defstruct data (list nil) (lock (bt:make-lock))) (defvar *data* (make-data)) (defun push-data (data) (bt:with-lock ((data-lock *data*)) (push data (data-list *data*))) (defun pop-data ...) 11:37:21 all access to variable is done through that pointer 11:37:24 now just use PUSH-DATA and POP-DATA from threads 11:37:48 is there a portable version of sb-concurrency:queue? 11:37:57 s/version/analogue/ 11:38:03 not yet 11:38:17 will madeira also have mailboxes? 11:38:18 (let ((*var* :new)) ...) internally makes a new cell, changes pointer in the TLS to point to that cell (remembering the old value), then runs code inside let... Everything that is called from inside, will see :new, since they access it through pointer 11:38:25 stassats`: that's the plan 11:38:36 good, i like mailboxes as an abstraction 11:38:39 once (let) exits, it restores the pointer to what it was.. At the outermost level its back to pointing to the global var 11:38:40 maxm: see lparallel.queue 11:39:42 ok now the *stats* is global and the monitor sees modifications I did from the main thread 11:39:46 dim: since you want to pass information between threads, you only need (1) an object to use as the channel of communication that takes care of synchronization (2) a global variable where you stick that object -- just defvar it, and you're done 11:40:06 never LET-bind it, don't add it to :bindings in kernel, etc 11:40:30 the :bindings is what confused me, thanks all for explaining 11:41:19 :bindings is made for explicitly doing the other use-case, when you want each thread to start with the same value then have their own TLS, good 11:41:29 so, now I have to consider locking 11:41:39 is there some atomic operation? 11:42:02 I will have a single thread where I edit the data, and N threads (hunchenhoot workers) that will only read it 11:42:11 no portable 11:42:30 well, setting variables is usually 11:42:35 atomic 11:43:31 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-3-213.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:43:34 (defvar *lock* (bt:make-lock)) (bt:with-lock-held (*lock*) (hammer-time)) 11:43:42 so I could prepare the next version of it in a local scope binding, then setf atomically 11:43:58 i suggest making a class containing your data, and putting lock inside as slot, then making global var contain instance of the class 11:44:40 and then some generic functions on that class to implement updating and reading the data with the lock I guess 11:44:48 can I have shared and exclusive locks? 11:45:31 yes, or make your own macro (with-serializing (obj) ... do stuff to it...) which expands to (with-lock-held (slot-value obj 'lock) ... do stuff to it ) 11:45:32 yes, but bt doesn't provide them 11:45:47 you need to either roll your own, or use them from some other source 11:47:16 mucker [~harsha@183.83.227.117] has joined #lisp 11:47:18 if you want to be fancy, you can make separate (defclass synchronized-object () ((lock :initform (bt:make-lock)))), then make it parent of all your classes instances of which need locking... 11:47:20 well setf being atomic would allow me not to use a lock at all I think 11:47:41 don't assume setf is atomic 11:47:45 ok 11:48:44 now I need to dive into lists and vectors deep copy functions 11:49:39 i mean, practically speaking, setf of /some/ things is going to be atomic. like SVREF, CAR, CDR, defstruct slots... -- but things like GETHASH and SLOT-VALUE aren't entirely safe assumptions 11:50:08 some implementations may specify which things are atomic vrt. setf, but you can't depend on it 11:50:38 in fact now is the time when I need to think about what data I want to publish exactly, how to represent it internally then in JSON, and then I will read about defclass etc 11:50:47 most implementations also provide CAS these days, which allows you to skip explicit locking in many cases 11:51:06 are you reading practical common lisp? 11:51:54 as IIUC defclass is not really about data structure themselves but closures and methods etc, how to unify access to a data structure -- I mean you would still use a vector or an array inside a class 11:52:18 I've read some of Practical Common Lisp before yes 11:52:40 now I'm mostly reading the specs and some newer APIs, and advices here :) 11:52:58 defclass is about datastructures 11:53:09 you don't have to use arrays or vectors in it 11:55:28 -!- Dodek [am291698@duch.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:55:30 yeah right 11:55:42 pffff, CL is strange 11:55:53 nothing is single purpose in there :) 11:55:54 read the CLOS sections of PCL 11:56:03 minion: Keene? 11:56:04 Keene: "Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS" by Sonya E Keene. http://www.cliki.net/Keene 11:56:15 I did so, the 2 chapters, some time ago, will do that again 11:56:20 *dim* bbl 11:57:58 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:58:48 keene is good too. still not sure if i agree with the make-foo policy, though. sometimes i think it's exactly right, sometimes i think it's deeply wrong 11:59:39 hi 11:59:56 (well, i guess it really comes down to what you consider part of the interface. for keene the functions are the interface, and classes are more opaque -- if you consider classes part of the interface as well, then it's different) 12:00:19 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:00:57 I've got a problem accessing slot in a class: (class-slot-name *object*) returns ; Evaluation aborted on # ~I~_when called with arguments ~2I~_~S.~:>" {10055D2E53}>. 12:02:13 what's not clear about it? you have no method for the generic function CLASS-SLOT-NAME defined for the class of *object* 12:02:48 did you put :accessor class-slot-name into the slot-definition? 12:03:03 Posterdati: (defclass foo () ((slot :initarg :slot :accessor foo-slot))) (defvar *object* (make-instance 'foo :slot "ding")) (foo-slot *object*) => "ding" 12:03:53 nikodemus: the class I try to access is in a package 12:04:20 packages contain symbols, not classes 12:04:42 Dodek [am291698@duch.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 12:04:49 have you read and understood the package chapter of practical common lisp? 12:04:53 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-165.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:05:18 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-171-160.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:05:22 (package-name::class-slot-name *object*) 12:05:33 nikodemus: yes 12:08:06 (defpackage :bar (:use :cl)) (in-package :bar) (defclass foo () ((slot :initarg :slot :accessor foo-slot))) (in-package :cl-user) (defparameter *object* (make-instance 'bar::foo :slot "dong")) (bar::foo-slot *object*) 12:08:11 *madnificent* should get his hands on (book Keene) 12:08:23 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:08:56 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 12:09:43 -!- adhoc [adhoc@50-56-189-236.static.cloud-ips.com] has left #lisp 12:10:27 nikodemus: look at my class definition --> http://paste.lisp.org/display/129218 12:10:36 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-165.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:11:10 Posterdati: think about the error message. it tells you that (1) the generic function exists (2) but doesn't have an applicable method. this means that either (a) the object is not of the class you think it is (b) you haven't defined the accessor method you thought you did -- perhaps you defined it on a nother generic function with a similar name, or a string= name in a different package 12:11:24 why do you have :accessor element-elements-list? 12:11:40 didn't you define it in element already? 12:12:30 stassats`: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129218#1 12:13:03 and classname-slot is usually a bad name for accessors 12:13:21 nikodemus: but what is the method to access elements-list? 12:13:27 minor stylistic concerns aside it's fine 12:14:07 Posterdati: so why do you define element-elements-list while the ELEMENT class doesn't have such a slot? 12:14:19 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:14:53 stassats`: shall I add element-elements-list in element to? 12:15:35 where? you don't have a elements-list slot in ELEMENTS, element-elements-list doesn't make any sense 12:16:01 ok 12:16:28 (element-elements-list (make-instance 'element)) ; BOOM, as expected 12:16:29 and by having accessors without a class prefix would make less trouble 12:16:33 my purpose was to use element as base class with common slots for the other classes 12:16:57 Posterdati: (foo-of object) is one naming convention that's not too bad 12:17:08 so 12:17:17 (foo object) is not bad too 12:17:33 I have to remove the element-elements-list that it is bad 12:17:34 unless FOO is in CL 12:17:43 it is not bad, just doesn't make sense 12:17:55 bad as in causes problems 12:18:11 if ELEMENT is supposed have an ELEMENTS-LIST, then add that slot there 12:18:40 if it isn't, then don't try to extract element-list from an object that doesn't have it 12:19:49 is it ok? http://paste.lisp.org/display/129218#2 12:20:01 *nikodemus* feels like a cranky old man saying this, but: re-read pcl. you're misunderstanding stuff that's pretty elementary, and covered there 12:20:30 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-61-13.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 12:20:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-61-13.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 12:20:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:20:32 Posterdati: yes 12:20:46 ok, I understood, thanks 12:20:50 though your documenation is pointless 12:21:00 yes I have to elaborate more 12:21:04 ok in the sense of less ugly, but it won't make (elements-list (make-instance 'element)) work any better 12:21:37 ? 12:22:13 shall I use slot-value? 12:22:15 Posterdati: you should just remove it, those slot names are sefl-descriptory 12:22:52 Posterdati: ELEMENT class doesn't have that slot, and there is no applicable method on ELEMENTS-LIST on an ELEMENT. only on NETLIST 12:23:01 ah you mean :documentation in defclass clause 12:23:48 Posterdati: please indicate who you're talking to. you're a bit hard to follow sometimes 12:24:14 stassats`: ah you mean :documentation in defclass clause 12:24:20 indeed 12:25:18 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-321616.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 12:26:59 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs78186070.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:27:33 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-397779.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:28:56 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 12:30:05 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-171-160.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 12:30:43 (slot-value *my-netlist* 'circuit-solver::elements-list) --> slot is missing 12:30:57 lsam [~user@host12-20-dynamic.54-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:31:01 *my-netlist* is a netlist object 12:31:25 did you create a new object after you redefined the classes? 12:31:38 I restarted 12:32:07 (not that it would matter) 12:33:06 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129218#3 12:33:21 I read the object from a sexp in a file 12:33:58 why did you paste it? don't you see that it's not an object? 12:34:24 how are you going to write programs if you can't do simple debugging? 12:34:47 uh ok 12:35:28 it should be an object not a list 12:35:38 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010c62.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:36:25 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:37:04 -!- kennyd [kennyd@93-138-103-254.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:38:09 -!- strange_ [~behelit@c-5eeaaaa4-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:42:01 kennyd [kennyd@78-0-221-198.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:44:27 -!- setekhid [~setekhid@223.65.15.165] has left #lisp 12:44:56 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@188-143-61-13.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 12:44:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:45:06 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 12:45:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-61-13.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 12:45:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:48:23 strange_ [~behelit@c-5eeaaaa4-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 12:50:18 stassats`: by not writing bugs in the first place? 12:50:31 that doesn't seem likely 12:51:22 i'll grant you that 12:51:35 Aribe [~Ari@188.Red-79-146-127.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:05 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 12:52:56 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:55 stassats`: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129218#4 12:59:14 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@178-164-242-115.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 12:59:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:59:14 stassats`: it was a problem in the sexp to object function translator 12:59:15 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 12:59:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-242-115.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 12:59:21 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:02:02 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 13:04:27 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:04:52 stassats`: solved! 13:04:59 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 13:07:16 harish [~harish@119.234.188.218] has joined #lisp 13:08:03 -!- eni is now known as albacker 13:08:27 -!- mucker [~harsha@183.83.227.117] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:10:45 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