00:03:57 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:05:58 -!- rstill [~rstill@12.104.144.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:06:36 MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has joined #lisp 00:08:07 -!- paul0 [~paul0@200.175.62.106.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 00:08:18 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 00:08:33 achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:07 nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 00:11:02 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:13:26 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:13:34 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:13:34 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:14:13 -!- nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:14:34 drumond19 [~drumond19@186.214.54.97] has joined #lisp 00:14:45 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.99.37] has joined #lisp 00:15:13 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 00:17:26 rme [~rme@50.43.187.220] has joined #lisp 00:17:51 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:19:08 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.9.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:19:25 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:20:54 -!- Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.99.37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:54 Farzad` [~farzadbek@46.225.99.37] has joined #lisp 00:21:16 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:04 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 00:24:06 rgc [~user@173.Red-79-158-82.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:39 quality comments: http://i.imgur.com/HwqSt.png 00:25:08 code in a picture? and you're asking for _quality_ comments? 00:25:52 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 00:25:55 i am saying that the code has quality comments 00:26:20 pun [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 00:27:49 it's true. there is no faking the funk. 00:28:00 pjb: if you could only half believe in something, then couldn't you have an arbitrary level of belief? I believe in -(-x and +x)=.75% belief where _=no belief, -=half belief, +=full belief and so on 00:28:40 i don't know why i typed that 00:29:34 oconnore: hindsight is easy 00:30:33 oconnore: yes. My point. 00:33:28 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 00:34:26 francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176432497.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:35:41 stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.119.197] has joined #lisp 00:36:09 antifuchs, :)))) 00:37:28 -!- rgc [~user@173.Red-79-158-82.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:39:03 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:39:29 -!- kennyd [kennyd@78-1-175-101.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:41:32 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.145.91.227] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:42:28 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.197] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:42:46 superflit [~superflit@75-166-68-85.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:54 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@209.226.201.250] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:53:33 francisl_ [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176432497.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:54:08 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-119-226.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:15 -!- francisl_ [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176432497.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:54:33 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176432497.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:54:33 francisl_ [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176432497.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:54:45 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:21 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:48 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:06:02 what is a good way to create a 2 element cyclic list? 01:06:40 -!- strange_ [~behelit@c213-89-59-224.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:06:43 i tried (defvar x '(1 2)) (setf (cddr x) x) but that just hangs on my system 01:07:02 kruhft: Do that, but (setf *print-circle* t) first. 01:07:13 ah 01:07:36 Otherwise your system will try to print (1 2 1 2 1 2 ...) which is impossible, of course. 01:08:13 is *print-circle* a dynamic? i tried to set it in a let but it didn't stick 01:08:28 Yes. 01:08:34 your binding is out of extent when it's printed 01:08:41 oh yeah, duh 01:08:44 thanks 01:09:07 You can do like (let ((*print-circle* t)) (print '#1=(1 2 . #1#)) nil) of course. 01:09:09 and the easiest way is '#1=(1 2 . #1#) 01:09:30 yes, that's how it was printed 01:09:53 You can enter it like that as well. 01:10:01 i'm trying to make a fast way of flipping between 2 values 01:10:31 between 1 and -1 without multiplying by -1 each loop 01:10:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:11:12 (let ((x 1) (y -1)) (loop do (rotatef x y))) 01:11:30 that would work 01:12:27 or (loop for x = 1 then y and y = -1 then x) 01:12:58 you need to check what's is actually faster, this or multiplying 01:13:02 the rotate is good 01:13:10 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-119-226.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 01:13:13 i'll time the two 01:14:37 they're pretty much equal 01:14:48 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 01:15:06 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-meowkusdmfenvaue] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:16 -!- dotemacs [u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xbdxsyqpyvtvhyqq] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:16 -!- rvirding [u5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-igvfyedckhsxoeck] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:16 -!- ocharles_ [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xhiqqahuinlospni] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:33 6.338 vs 6.192 over 10000000 iterations 01:15:40 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 01:16:10 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-comajksizedjsfko] has joined #lisp 01:16:28 well then, (loop for x = 1 then (- x)) looks better 01:16:53 -!- NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dygnfxcabakqkrwz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17:48 how would i translate (dotimes (i n) (incf result (/ a (incf odds 2))) (rotatef a b)) into loop? i've never really used it before 01:19:01 what is a high-level description of what it's doing? 01:19:07 calculating pi 01:19:17 -!- Farzad` [~farzadbek@46.225.99.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:19:35 doesn't look like 01:19:43 from 1... sum -1^n/2n-1 01:20:01 it's a formula from liebniz 01:20:12 1-1/3+1/5-1/7... 01:20:50 it's quite amazing i'm just writing a program to verify it 01:21:24 well i wrote it actually but i was just wondering how to flip between 2 values faster than (setf x (* -1 x)) 01:21:45 Is that actually a bottleneck in your program? 01:21:48 the use of exact rationals far outwieghs the runtime anyways so it doesn't really matter 01:21:50 no 01:22:11 just wanted to know a better way to do it 01:22:13 (* 4 (loop for i to 1000 sum (/ (expt -1 i) (1+ (* 2 i))))) 01:23:55 ocharles_ [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-arlkuasxbajbrutg] has joined #lisp 01:24:41 actually, that should be from n=0... sum -1^n/2n+1 01:24:53 but thanks for the loop example 01:25:12 kruhft: my example is right 01:25:18 kruhft, that alternating series will converge very slowly 01:25:26 yes i know 01:25:38 kruhft, at least use the series expansion of 16 atan(1/5) - 4 atan(1/239) 01:25:43 i'm not doing it to actually calculate pi 01:25:55 Quadrescence: cl:pi is faster 01:25:55 i'm just trying to verify a very interesting forumula that i found 01:26:23 stassats`, to LIMITED PRECISION! 01:26:38 it just amazes me that he found and verified it...you really only get 4-5 decimal places at 10000 iterations 01:26:49 daedalus_ [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:56 how he proved that relation is pi...boggles the mind 01:26:58 i think mr. Leibniz did it analytically 01:27:03 kruhft, the mathematical properties make it more evident 01:27:22 Quadrescence: and what would those be? 01:27:38 kruhft, the expansion of arctan 01:27:51 taylor expansion? 01:27:52 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:27:56 yes 01:28:25 Quadrescence: on clisp cl:pi has unlimited precision 01:28:52 (also, 5-6 digits is enough for anyone) 01:28:58 stassats`, https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/numericl/src/5fe8fe7089f4/src/experimental/pi-chudnovsky.lisp 01:29:09 i like how using lisp gives the rational approximation of the relation and how at infinity iterations you have a ration with 2 infinities that equal an irrational 01:29:47 i read somewhere that knowing pi to 20 digits allows you to calculate the radius of the galaxy down to a single atom, or something like that 01:29:54 on SBCL (expt -1 n) is optimized to (if (evenp n) 1 -1) 01:30:04 stassats`, I was going to ask that 01:30:08 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:38 (i sent a patch some years ago) 01:31:53 actually, it's more clever 01:32:40 it's when it's -1, it's (- 1 (* 2 (logand 1 y))) 01:32:43 no branching! 01:32:50 wow! 01:33:30 kruhft, see the code above if you want to see an ugly looking way to compute a beautiful series which computes pi 01:33:40 -!- daedalus_ [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:33:41 and oddp for floats 01:34:23 yikes, if only for the lack of contrast and i hate to complain about that :) 01:34:31 kruhft, i hate that 01:34:40 https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/numericl/raw/5fe8fe7089f4/src/experimental/pi-chudnovsky.lisp 01:34:52 thanks 01:35:34 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:35:39 i like leibniz's better, it's prettier 01:36:03 I think this one is prettier. Very profound. 01:36:15 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:27 it looks more complex 01:37:08 pnq [~nick@AC82C7AE.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:37:14 yes it does. Notice how all of the coefficients fit in 32-bit integers :) 01:37:39 and it calculates arbitrary values of pi? 01:37:47 yes 01:37:48 your pi calculations just increase entropy in the universe 01:37:48 dotemacs [u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fwddbenxslzsdmoe] has joined #lisp 01:38:00 doesn't everything? 01:38:04 stassats`, so does my PowerPC 01:39:09 so the constants all fit into 32 bit integers but do intermediate results? 01:39:17 -!- francisl_ [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176432497.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl_] 01:39:20 ie. could this be written in C? 01:39:20 kruhft: in this case it's the only result 01:39:44 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-yygjipasfbmxkxor] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39:44 is it using clever use of rollover i mean 01:39:56 if so, that's pretty damn clever 01:40:45 kruhft, you need bignums. You can't do arbitrary precision without it. But you can easily avoid having to do huge multiplications and whatever 01:41:26 "yo momma so big she doesn't fit into a bignum" 01:42:09 (on a 16-bit architecture) 01:42:21 bigmum 01:42:25 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:42:38 stassats`, addressable memory 01:43:06 unless of course bignums-on-disk is your thing ;) 01:43:37 bignums-in-the-cloud 01:43:43 haha 01:44:56 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 01:46:42 NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uyouikrmcpynlygw] has joined #lisp 01:47:03 X99 [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 01:47:22 rvirding [u5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nwbkhlqlduxyehjt] has joined #lisp 01:48:28 -!- kevin01123 [~user@97-91-232-86.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:50:00 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:53:40 nydel [~jo@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:45 -!- X99 [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:53:59 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 01:54:27 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:55:06 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:55:21 daedalus_ [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:10 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:34 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:59:37 daedalus__ [~daedalus@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:29 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.187.220] has left #lisp 02:04:33 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:06:27 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:09 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 02:08:40 -!- pun [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Quit: Host computer in shutdown mode.] 02:10:49 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:12:30 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 02:12:32 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:12:40 redscare [~lenskiy@BAKER-ONE-EIGHTY-ONE.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 02:13:14 just wondering, is there a real difference between ' and #'? 02:13:41 'x == (quote x) and #'x == (function x) 02:14:24 Clearly we should have #quux and not #'quux 02:14:54 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 02:15:01 but when i type (apply '+ '(1 2 3)) it still works? 02:15:22 i'm wondering if there is a reason to use #'x over 'x? 02:15:23 redscare: yes. 02:15:32 -!- naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-219-35.w109-208.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:15:38 redscare: if + is CL:+, there's no essential reason. 02:15:49 redscare: if + is another symbol named + there's a big reason. 02:16:22 pjb: i am just starting out with lisp and what confuses me most is the quoting. could you explain this please? 02:16:54 (shadow '+) (defun + (&rest args) (apply 'cl:+ args)) (flet ((+ (a b) (concatenate 'string a b))) (list (apply (quote +) '(1 2 3)) (ignore-errors (apply (function +) '(1 2 3))))) 02:17:39 redscare: in CL, in a lot of occurences, one may use another object to designate a given object. 02:18:17 redscare: for example, string designators are characters, symbols or strings. So instead of (string= "ABC" string) you can write (string= 'ABC string) and get the same result. 02:18:43 Similarly, package designators are string designators or packages. 02:19:21 pjb, why do you suppose the authors of the spec decided to have these designators? 02:19:33 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:19:40 Because it's more practical. 02:19:46 How? 02:19:56 because symbols are strings 02:20:30 pjb: i am sorry, this may seem elementary, but I still fail to see the usefulness of #'. I can define a function foo and pass it to another function bar by simply using 'foo. What cases does this break for? 02:20:42 redscare: FLET 02:20:50 naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-219-35.w109-208.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:21:21 redscare: try (defun x (a) (car a)) (flet ((x (a) (cdr a))) (print (funcall #'x '(1 2))) (funcall 'x '(1 2))) 02:21:23 Maybe CL should do what PHP does and allow "123" + 456. 02:21:25 Instead of taking a Quadrescence where I am, and pointing to him to say  doesn't understand, I can use the designator "Quadrescence". 02:21:43 and just say "Quadrescence doesn't understand.", and everybody understand. 02:21:51 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:22:01 Quadrescence: 456 is a number, not a string 02:22:12 redscare: (function sin) returns a function. (quote sin) returns a symbol. 02:22:18 redscare: function, symbol. 02:22:22 Two different things. 02:22:54 pjb: ok. but i can call (funcall symbol args) yes? 02:23:00 Unfortunately, function are binary objects, full of cryptic object code, and often quite big, so they're hard to type. 02:23:05 redscare: not 02:23:06 no 02:23:07 Instead we give them names and type the name. 02:23:16 redscare: not with FLET 02:23:21 redscare: you can, but sometimes it's not the same thing. 02:23:25 stassats`: he was making a joke about PHP, I think 02:23:28 See my flet above. 02:23:46 oconnore: php is sad, not funny 02:23:50 pjb: sorry for not letting this die, but is flet the only exception or are there other cases? 02:24:00 (defun f () 'hi) (flet ((f () 'lo)) (list (funcall (quote f)) (funcall (function f)))) 02:24:09 redscare: labels too. 02:24:44 You can invent other situations. The interpretation of a symbol as a function named by that symbol entirely depends on the function you give this symbol to. 02:25:03 stassats`, do you believe that if there exists a bijection between data types P and Q, that P and Q should be able to be used interchangeably? 02:25:13 CL:APPLY and CL:FUNCTION (and therefore CL:MAPCAR etc), are specified to use (symbol-function symbol) when you give them a symbol. 02:25:19 stassats`: at some point I think you loop back around 02:25:21 redscare: when you redefine foo, the old #'foo will refer to the old definition 02:25:22 But another function could do something else with the symbol. 02:26:04 -!- sammi` [sammi@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-qwjouwicqbpbnfnd] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:26:22 pjb, stassats`: thank you, i think i understand. so symbols are special in their own right, and only become variables or functions when they are evaluated? 02:26:58 redscare, not quite. Somewhere inside APPLY, there's code that says "please get the function associated with this symbol" 02:26:59 Quadrescence: symbols are just strings in named hashtables, it has nothing to do with bijections or whatnot 02:27:00 redscare: (defun call (f) (etypecase f (symbol (list 'hi f)) (function (funcall f)))) (list (call (function list-all-package)) (call (quote list-all-package))) 02:27:09 it's not that the symbol evals to a function 02:27:51 and it makes perfect sense to have (string= symbol x) instead of (string= (string symbol) x) 02:28:22 stassats`, data type conflation is a good source for errors. 02:28:34 because all string* operators accept string designators 02:28:40 if you don't want it, use EQUAL 02:28:55 Quadrescence: if you want haskell, you know where to find it 02:29:07 is (= 3 3.0) => T wrong too? 02:29:12 in your view 02:29:52 If I had things the way I wanted, then yes I'd say that shouldn't be equal, or rather (= x (float x)) shouldn't be. 02:30:09 in eql it doesn't 02:31:23 rmillerx [~rmillerx@24.96.144.242] has joined #lisp 02:31:42 pspace [~andrew@d118-75-192-10.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 02:33:36 and can you show me how the fact that STRING* accept string designators can be a source of errors? 02:34:58 Quadrescence: = is a numeric comparison, not an identity comparison. 3.0 does equal 3 numerically even though they are different things. 02:35:59 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 02:36:00 oconnore, that's why I clarified with (= x (float x)), which isn't true for all x, especially if you're allowed to use rationals, even if you restrict rationals to the precision of a given float type. 02:36:28 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p54839E83.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:37:43 oconnore, the reason I wouldn't want (= 3 3.0) is because I see 3.0 = [3 - epsilon, 3 + epsilon], where epsilon is the "float epsilon" 02:39:11 x + epsilon doesn't mean you'll get a different number 02:39:53 I am speaking mathematically. In fact, I should have used () and not [] 02:40:22 Quadrescence: mathematically, floating point numbers are exact for integers below a certain threshold. 02:40:43 oconnore, you're right 02:41:11 binary floating point is not what's used in mathematics 02:41:44 stassats`, you're also right 02:41:53 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 02:42:21 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:43:48 Anyway, lisp is how it is, and this is getting off-topic. 02:46:12 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:52:54 emma_ [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 02:56:07 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 02:56:14 -!- emma is now known as em 02:58:35 -!- BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:02:26 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@101.173.59.41] has quit [Quit: Bye] 03:03:04 Gundisalvus [c7621193@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.98.17.147] has joined #lisp 03:03:18 setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:33 is anyone here well versed in lisp for autocad? 03:03:40 no 03:04:00 kornshell [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has joined #lisp 03:04:08 ISF [~ivan@187.106.49.167] has joined #lisp 03:04:16 Gundisalvus: ask autocad to integrate ecl. 03:04:18 Not understanding the sarcasm, although it is a LISP channel, not everyone has experience with autocad 03:04:28 sammi` [sammi@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-wpfttvzmwmkuzkwp] has joined #lisp 03:04:35 Gundisalvus: well, the channel specialize on Common Lisp. 03:05:02 Gundisalvus: it's not a LISP channel 03:05:11 Gundisalvus: type /topic 03:05:14 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:31 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 03:05:43 hmm I see, I figured haha thank you. Does anyone know then where I could find an autocad channel which could help with lisp? 03:06:06 i doubt such exists 03:06:16 Gundisalvus: if it's just a lisp question we probably can. But you would have to ask it instead of babling for nothing. 03:07:37 It's more autocad related in terms of the functions and after reading a ton of documentation I can't find the specific commands to do particular things. Since this isn't an autocad channel and as you have said it is a channel which specializes in common lisp, it is doubtful that any here would know. However I appreciate the help and understanding 03:07:47 teggi [~teggi@113.172.56.22] has joined #lisp 03:08:41 -!- Gundisalvus [c7621193@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.98.17.147] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:12:58 -!- kornshell [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:23:48 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:25:50 -!- rmillerx [~rmillerx@24.96.144.242] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 03:33:41 -!- redscare [~lenskiy@BAKER-ONE-EIGHTY-ONE.MIT.EDU] has left #lisp 03:35:54 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:40:00 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:45:25 francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176432497.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:45:57 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176432497.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 03:49:31 -!- drumond19 [~drumond19@186.214.54.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:53:00 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[~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 12:26:25 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:28:45 -!- metacoder [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:29:16 robolobster54 [~robolobst@195.55.84.163] has joined #lisp 12:29:28 Hi. I'm trying to install propagators (https://github.com/namin/propagators), but following those instructions (namely to run (load "load") in scheme in the propagator/ directory) produces the error "Unable to find file "load" because: File does not exist" How to proceed? 12:29:56 LOL Extra LOL: so, in C++ when you define foo(int) and foo(char*) and call foo(0), it's foo(char*) which is called, because 0 is the null pointer :-) 12:30:26 robolobster54: we discuss common lisp in this channel 12:30:28 robolobster54: wrong channel - ask on #scheme 12:30:36 Sorry, thanks 12:32:05 And when you hear that after having read a C++er say that he's fed up with people saying that in "other" languages you can do this or that (in one line eg. (CHANGE-CLASS object newclass)), while you can do the same in C++ (with fifty lines and three more classes), it's too good :-) 12:32:32 pjb: does calling foo((int)0) work? 12:32:53 No, not even. 12:33:05 ... whut 12:33:10 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs27100107.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:33:17 (int)0 in C++ is defined to be the null pointer. 12:33:31 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 12:33:35 (Just like NIL is the empty list and false boolean in C). 12:34:28 >_> 12:34:32 Which doesn't preclude any bit representation of (void*)0, like CL:NIL can be represented differently from the other symbols in a CL implementation (a few did/do). 12:36:46 -!- kennyd [kennyd@78-1-175-101.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:37:12 kennyd_ [kennyd@93-141-62-192.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:37:33 Well, in my g++ (Gentoo 4.5.3-r2 p1.1, pie-0.4.7) 4.5.3, foo(0) calls foo(int); it must have been a bug it their version of the compiler. 12:37:59 so. The standard wants to call foo(char*)? 12:38:27 metacoder [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 12:39:18 #c++ might be a good place to ask :) 12:39:27 -!- robolobster54 [~robolobst@195.55.84.163] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:40:13 true 12:40:14 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has left #lisp 12:40:43 pjb: well c++ guy may respond to, "have your tried using change-class in a multi-threaded environment, while you have methods specializing on a new or old class" 12:40:53 -!- metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:41:14 *maxm* hopes nikodemus work fixes it, coz currently i can't use change-class in any parallel code 12:41:46 maxm: change class is inherently hostile to threaded code 12:42:15 so no hope? why can't it just use atomic replace on whatever clos hashtables 12:42:21 (defmethod foo ((x bar)) (call-next-method)) ; what should happen if you change-class on the argument while the method is executing? 12:42:39 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:42:41 ie make all the clos hash tables linked from single change, then prepare all stuff before hand, then just (setf) the cell 12:42:50 doesn't work like that 12:42:52 from single change -> from single cell 12:43:50 iirc change-class is in itself thread safe already, but if you change a class of an instance that is being used by a method specialized on it, all best are off 12:43:58 maxm: because it has to change the slots too. 12:44:09 perhaps grow or reduce the object size too. 12:44:16 or re-order slots 12:44:40 But that's beside the point, in C++ they also have the same problems with threads. 12:44:42 some of the semantics of executing methods could be made sane, but it would come with a serious global performance hit 12:45:06 mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-hudd6-0-0-cust741.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:13 I would say that common sense use of change-class 12:45:14 some of the semantics of executing methods cannot be made sane, because change-class may simply violate them 12:45:30 is to make object more specilized, that is slots will be added 12:45:50 I understand the "oh, we can't handle _all_ cases", so can just as well not do it 12:46:30 maxm: even adding slots is heinously tricky to get right 12:46:47 maxm: which is much preferable to "we can handle some cases but you'll run into problems later on" 12:46:51 most of the real smarts in PCL are about slot access optimizations, and adding slots completely kills them 12:47:01 the bottom line is "threads suck" 12:47:35 maxm: and AFAIK the really common use case is "no-one else has this object yet, so change-class is OK" 12:48:28 mostafa_a [~mostafa@86.57.5.234] has joined #lisp 12:48:31 oh well.. i just kind of had a really neat hack that uses change-class, but had to give it up due to this problem 12:48:49 -!- mostafa_a [~mostafa@86.57.5.234] has left #lisp 12:48:58 nikodemus: doh, you saying that part is fixed? 12:49:15 i'm not aware of there being any issues with it 12:49:26 maybe there are, but no-one has reported them to me 12:49:31 nikodemus: because my use case was certainly the no one else has this object yet, and I change-class it to different class (classes themself not changing) 12:49:45 maxm: that should be fine 12:49:59 nikodemus: wait a minute, have you just basically said that clos won't ever be thread safe? 12:50:00 ok, I'll try it again soon and see if it worked 12:50:05 if it doesn't work, send email to sbcl-bugs or put it up on launchpad 12:50:24 H4ns: define thread-safe ;) 12:51:04 H4ns: i said that there are clos operations that will never be thread safe, like arbitrary change-class 12:51:05 pkhuong: change-class can be called on any object, any time, without breaking the integrity of the running image would be one thing that i'd expect. 12:51:40 define breaking integrity 12:51:41 nikodemus: which is kind of the same thing. i guess it would be good to have that documented somewhere. 12:52:08 nikodemus: anything that one cannot recover from within lisp 12:52:49 things i can see it causing: strange type errors, and slot values mysteriously not changing despite a method completing (because it used the instance vector from before change-class, and got clobbered) 12:53:43 the spec itself says that calling change-class from a method specialized on the old class is risky because the other methods in the call chain will go on being called on an object that possibly can't be applied to them anymore. 12:53:56 exactly that 12:54:19 parallelism just extends that to all threads 12:54:26 robolobster54 [~robolobst@109.144.220.2] has joined #lisp 12:54:40 but with threads is that not extended to "calling change-class is risky"? 12:54:43 nikodemus: do we have membars? 12:54:50 So when you have threads, you need to put locks over almost every operations :-) 12:54:51 membars? 12:55:15 memory barriers. That'd be one way that threads could make things worse, if we missed some spot. 12:55:45 pkhuong: we do, but imo we don't put them in all the places we should 12:56:31 last time we talked about it, i was in the minority. i wanted (setf (place-seen-by-another-thread) (make-instance 'foo)) to be sane outside x86oids as well 12:57:00 it's atomic. Let the user insert membars where needed. 12:57:12 harish_ [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:57:25 except that outside x86oids the other thread might not see a completely initialized instance 12:57:40 ah, right. We definitely want a barrier after initialisation. 12:58:00 i'm pretty sure i was told we that's for the weak the last time this came up :) 12:58:31 well, definitely for struct instances and vectors. Not sure for CLOS (: 12:58:35 ...and as long as we don't have an arm port, also somewhat theoretical. (ok, there's ppc) 12:58:44 *H4ns* thinks that most people who use threads overestimate their power :) 12:59:47 i'm also starting to think we should have a lock-slot on most objects, so you could do (with-locked-object (x) ...) and have it work on everything except conses and immediates 12:59:48 intertwingled control flow 13:00:07 but i'm still on the fence with that 13:00:55 nikodemus: to them, I say look at the best practices for java. We're told to re-invent pthread-like synchronisation objects on top of synchronised methods/slots. 13:00:57 *maxm* is wondering if stop the world machinery could not be used for this somehow 13:01:19 hm 13:01:44 something like stop the world -> "i am the only thread, fear me and despair" -> do the PCL needful changing instances -> run the world again 13:02:03 doesn't help if other threads are in a bad state when you do that 13:02:14 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 13:02:17 so it's back to "expensive synchronization" 13:03:04 bet how does GC do it? 13:03:21 pseudo-atomic allocation sequences 13:03:26 I mean if I do (sb-ext:gc) I can be pretty sure world stopped doing it right? 13:03:32 <|3b|> maxm: GC just needs to move things, not wait until nothing is using them 13:03:50 maxm: and, in fact, we don't move things that others might be using. 13:03:56 ah 13:03:59 it's cheap synchronization, because it is intensely special cased 13:04:30 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:25 *maxm* just likes brainstorming, sometimes useful things come out doing it, or trigger some associations in other people that make useful thing come up in their heads 13:05:47 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@Lark.price.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 13:07:53 pkhuong: I had mfence vop laying around somewhere 13:08:09 but I since had seen someone add it to assembler 13:08:14 is there any documentation that describes what is atomic and what is not, in threaded sbcl? 13:08:56 src/compiler/x86-64/insts.lisp: (define-fence-instruction mfence #b11110000) 13:09:27 i.e. can i read a hash table from one thread while another writes to it? can i update a globally bound special variable while another thread might read it, stuff like that? 13:11:17 hash tables' non-thread safety is documented. Re specials, yes, but I don't think it's documented. 13:11:47 updating cells is atomic, but can be delayed by caching, if you need update cell, then read cell that can be changed by other thread, you need mfence 13:12:29 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:13:08 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.36.7] has joined #lisp 13:13:34 H4ns: is STM too high-level for your needs? 13:15:03 i thought we had hash-tables documented these days? 13:15:31 nikodemus: what I wrote (: 13:15:47 oh, misread 13:16:00 flip214: i'm not really looking for some library to make things easier to use. i'm looking for documentation that describes how standard lisp constructs behave in the presence of multiple threads. 13:16:01 but more documentation is definitely needed 13:16:08 minion: chant 13:16:08 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:16:08 MORE DOCUMENTATION 13:16:18 especially of the "discursive, how to actually use threads sanely" type 13:16:21 minion: chant 13:16:21 MORE DOCUMENTATION 13:16:25 this is an interesting presentation: http://cl-www.msi.co.jp/solutions/knowledge/lisp-world/reports/cbbcl-slides.pdf 13:16:28 hmmm, is that hardcoded? 13:16:42 flip214: you'll find out. but not by trying more. 13:16:50 nikodemus: exactly that. 13:16:50 while on topic of threads: https://github.com/nikodemus/SBCL/commit/4285851f9c0d5689be6a260e96451a64e82d775b 13:16:56 Wikipedia actually has a decent example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_barrier 13:17:04 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 13:17:27 nikodemus: I'm pretty sure the model we're taught in college and most textbooks is wrong, so... 13:18:24 nice, disentangling exit-thread and terminate-program. 13:18:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:19:04 amusingly, that came about when trying to write madeira:exit -- it made me realize how sucky our QUIT was 13:20:01 what if someone calls terminate-thread on a main thread? 13:20:25 actually I have no idea what would happen right now too 13:20:48 ok kills the process 13:21:08 yes 13:24:52 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:27:53 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@75.Red-88-7-128.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:34:12 H4ns: sadly, the non-bogus spinlock implementation in that slide is bogus... 13:36:23 pkhuong: that's what i meant with people who overestimate their power :) 13:36:38 morning 13:38:10 H4ns, pkhuong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect 13:39:50 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@75.Red-88-7-128.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:42 what does lispworks' atomic-fixnum-incf do when the number overflows? 13:43:43 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-022.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 13:43:54 -!- redline6561_ is now known as redline6561 13:45:47 n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@37.79.35.177] has joined #lisp 13:45:53 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0FE3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:45:54 a) it overflows with it b) it ensures that it's argument is also atomic ? 13:45:58 lol 13:46:00 saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA0101.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:48:11 climatecode|nb [~nickbarne@5e0cc388.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 13:48:30 Phooodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:41 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.47.210.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:48:46 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:49:14 why does (let ((x 3)) (progv '(x) '(4) (list x (symbol-value 'x)))) => (3 4) ? 13:49:30 ISF [~ivan@187.106.49.167] has joined #lisp 13:49:44 How is the outer binding active? 13:49:55 -!- Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:49:58 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-121.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:50:19 climatecode|nb: you haven't declared X special, so a lexical lookup is executed. 13:50:42 (note that if this is evaluated without the outer binding, I get (4 4)) 13:51:21 without the outer binding, the code isn't standard CL, and, on some implementation, a special lookup may be executed. 13:51:23 do you also get an error message? 13:51:25 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-121.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:51:34 a warning 13:51:35 -!- hnsz [~hnsz@a80-100-41-184.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #lisp 13:51:40 No. FWIW, his is LispWorks. 13:51:48 hnsz [~hnsz@a80-100-41-184.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:51:51 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@75.Red-88-7-128.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 13:52:20 "a lexical lookup". Where will I find that defined in the CLHS? 13:53:09 Wikipedia might be better for that. 13:53:12 (I thought I grokked the distinction between dynamic bindings and lexical bindings, but I fear I might have been skating on thin ice). 13:53:57 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@75.Red-88-7-128.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:25 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-qesgddozxiwrfhsu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:54:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scope_%28computer_science%29#Lexical_scoping_and_dynamic_scoping 13:54:47 I do know the difference between lexical scoping and dynamic scoping. 13:55:14 (20 years ago I was writing compilers for a living). 13:55:28 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 13:55:41 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:46 *sykopomp* remembers reading/watching something where an old lisper was talking about how hard it was, when lexical scoping first came around, to explain it to their phd colleagues. 13:56:39 the twist which Lisp brings is the existence of symbols at runtime; this has some pretty deep consequences in the language semantics but is pretty much skipped over in most Lisp materials. 13:56:43 -!- saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA0101.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:57:20 -!- robolobster54 [~robolobst@109.144.220.2] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:57:25 i wonder why PROGV doesn't signal any warnings when used on undefined variables 13:57:27 Maybe I'm confused, but is there a need to distinguish between "symbol" and "variable" when looking at scope and binding? 13:57:27 climatecode|nb: symbol values are not lexical. 13:58:04 -!- sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:58:19 I'm just having my first coffee and didn't sleep much last night, so I'll sit back and listen. 13:58:49 (in other programming languages, which have variables rather than symbols, lexical bindings can mostly be resolved at compile time, and at runtime all you have are values and stack slots). 13:59:06 [got to dash off on an errand; will return to pursue this question in about 40 minutes] 13:59:08 so is lisp 13:59:19 lexical variables are resolved at compile time 13:59:23 jlongster [~user@pool-108-4-74-122.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:34 climatecode|nb: lexical bindings are resolved at compile time. It's just that they're mapped with symbols rather than strings. 14:00:43 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:00:57 dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:42 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 14:01:58 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-121.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:02:19 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0E1E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:03:26 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-409524.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:03:39 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-121.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:05:11 -!- pnq [~nick@AC810C19.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:05:39 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 14:06:20 -!- dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has left #lisp 14:06:35 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-121.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:06:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-022.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:07:36 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-022.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 14:07:53 hey I'm sshing into a comp via eshell, how do I edit a file? 14:08:10 whoops, thought it was the emacs channel 14:08:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:08:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:09:07 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-121-223-199-47.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:09:18 dekuked, have you looked at tramp mode? ssh can share connections for that sort of thing 14:09:34 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-121-223-199-47.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:10:35 xecycle [~user@2001:da8:8000:e104:ca0a:a9ff:fe72:7a0d] has joined #lisp 14:11:15 ChibaPet: I'll look into that, thank you 14:11:54 embeddable-maxima failed to build for me, can I use a normal maxima inside my common lisp program? 14:13:03 dekuked, if I remember correctly, Ctl-x-f hostname:/path/to/file 14:13:14 -!- replore_ [~replore@EM117-55-65-133.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:42 xecycle: yes, you can 14:13:52 +1 for tramp 14:14:00 stassats: Are there any documentation on that? 14:14:13 i don't know 14:16:50 I Googled for "use maxima from lisp", relevant links stated the embeddable one, but none told me how to load the maxima libraries. 14:17:40 just read the code 14:23:45 gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:25:26 saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA103C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:26:07 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 14:26:29 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0E1E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:27:14 dlowe: any particular reason why local-time:make-timestamp and make-timezone are macros instead of functions? 14:28:48 slyrus: make-timezone is a macro because it was in Naggum's paper 14:29:17 and I feel queasy about using defparameter in a function 14:29:43 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:34 oh, no. that's define-timezone 14:32:22 make-timezone is a macro because that's how defstruct did it 14:32:27 -!- metacoder [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Quit: metacoder] 14:32:30 -!- naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-219-35.w109-208.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:32:30 I don't take responsibility for that one 14:32:58 hmm... ok. I was trying to apply it, but then I realized I actually wanted encode-timestamp, so it doesn't really matter at the moment :) 14:33:09 dlowe: and make-timstamp? 14:33:27 -!- n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@37.79.35.177] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 14:33:43 same reason, one presumes 14:33:45 timestamp used to be a struct. Maybe that's it 14:34:14 probably no good reason, honestly 14:35:36 dlowe: I have a trivial library that (now) sits on top of local-time and allows for representation of some simple operations on intervals so that one can represent arbitrary durations, which, as I've learned, aren't necessarily convertible into, say, seconds. 14:36:04 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:36:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-165.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:36:30 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:37:35 naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-200-146.w109-208.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:38:47 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 14:39:32 -!- dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:39:54 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.49.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:41:29 robolobster54 [~robolobst@77.241.58.140] has joined #lisp 14:41:55 -!- robolobster54 [~robolobst@77.241.58.140] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:51 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-35-217-237.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 14:43:44 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 14:44:18 -!- vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-151-131.dsl.sil.at] has quit [Quit: vervic] 14:45:58 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has joined #lisp 14:47:01 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129170 <- yeah. The "fixed" version is somewhat longer. 14:47:53 Don't forget to test on PPC! (-: 14:48:05 slyrus: nice. is it online? 14:50:27 lol exactly the implementation i ended up using in cilk 14:50:51 -!- xecycle [~user@2001:da8:8000:e104:ca0a:a9ff:fe72:7a0d] has left #lisp 14:51:04 funnily enough compare and swap based implementation, has higher performance then original mfence based implementation, at least on my hardwarde (quad opterons) 14:51:51 maxm: that's actually expected on x86oids. 14:52:30 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:52:46 I used worker state (unique per worker) as token, and stealing was (cas (task-state) :state__waiting :state__running) 14:52:47 dekuked [~user@mail.kesnermorrissey.com] has joined #lisp 14:52:48 dlowe: no, but i'll put it up later this morning 14:53:03 where victim and thief are worker numbers 14:53:35 the mfence implementation used dekker protocol 14:55:07 CILK major idea which is under-appreciated and is the key to all of its performanec improvements 14:55:10 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:55:35 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:56:00 is that you compile 2 versions of your parallel code, the fast and slow. Slow has to be correct and expansive.. Fast is non-parallel depth-first version 14:56:12 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120417165043]] 14:57:14 then you build the computation is such a way, that only when there is a free worker, it picks up the "slow" version of the tasklet.. But that slow version calling itself recursively, calls the fast version 14:57:19 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:57:56 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has left #lisp 14:58:02 once lparallel implemented the above logic, even without task stealing, it got performance close to cilk 14:58:30 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has joined #lisp 15:02:10 climatecode|nb: re progv: I asked a very similar question here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128281 and got a helpful answer here: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/2012-03/lisp-2012.03.11.txt 15:02:15 lparallel did it with limiters, basically (plet ((var1 (computation1)) (var2 (computation2))) expanding into (if (have free workers) (...real fancy plet...) (..regular let ...), with have 15:02:43 with have-free-workers being optimistic non-locking primitive, and real plet case doing the expansive accounting of number of free workers 15:03:13 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:03:32 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 15:07:27 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:08:34 does anyone know about the compatibility of cl-darcs with the 2.8 branch? 15:08:41 version* 15:08:46 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-022.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:10:19 you can try it and tell us 15:10:46 iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:10:46 -!- YokYok [~david@vmailbox.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:10:50 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:11:02 darcs use is getting lean on the ground around here. 15:11:08 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:12:15 X-Scale [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 15:14:24 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:14:29 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:56 jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 15:15:31 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:15:38 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:15:47 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 15:18:16 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-409524.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:18:51 darcs should be use case as in what went wrong, and difference between theory and practice 15:19:56 couldn't the same case be made about cl? :P 15:20:06 it is exactly because git started out as thrown together collection of c++ and shell scripts, which anyone could hack on, that it took off... darcs never took off, because there were maybe 1 or 2 people who understood the actual conflict resolution code, and how it failed in corner cases 15:20:13 s/c++/c 15:20:45 dekuked: no cl is git in lisp case of this, with role of darcs being scheme 15:20:46 maxm: that's not true 15:21:08 most work on git was done by the same few people 15:21:47 fe[nl]ix: well thats the impression I got from the mailing list, and yes I used darcs (to vc my dotfiles collection that I move from machine to machine), and I hit exponential explosion after maybe 3 merges 15:21:54 of changes done on different boxes 15:22:23 the problem with darcs is its design 15:22:36 pnq [~nick@AC820F04.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:22:39 I doubt that more or better programmers could have improved it considerably 15:22:52 maxm: what do you mean exponential explosion? 15:23:08 yes that was my point.. the programmers on darcs were too good, so they wrote code only they could hack on 15:23:30 so when they needed redesign, no one could offer no useful things, and even most brilliant coder can get stuck 15:24:30 dekuked: darcs had a corner case, when merging the code that previously had been already merged (the very common case), that had exponential runtime based on number of commits in each branch 15:24:34 is "too good" a nice way to say "bad"? 15:24:48 dekuked: once you hit the problem, only way to fix with history preserved, was to use a backup 15:24:52 that's mostly been fixed. IIUC, that was an issue with the underlying theory. 15:25:21 Same deal with darcs2: the hurdles aren't in the code, but in getting the concepts right. 15:27:38 maxm: when did that happen? ~2010? I've heard they fixed stuff like that, and that it can now handle much larger codebases, but I've yet to see that 15:28:06 there are things i like about darcs, but the not having a clear notion of history was the dealbreaker for me. it would be lovely if there was an unholy marriage of git and darcs: git for mostly-linearized history on master, darcs for managing patches still in flux 15:28:26 climatecode|nb: Your progv you also be written as: (let ((x 3)) (progv (compute-variable-list) (compute-value-list) (list x (symbol-value 'x)))) ; lexically, the variable x is bound to 3 here. 15:29:20 v 15:30:16 dekuked: yes it was a few years ago, I had switched to git by then 15:30:24 -!- jiacobucci1 is now known as jiacobucci 15:30:49 nikodemus: there are tools that do that with git 15:30:50 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-35-217-237.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:53 since you can't say "ok I will not use VC for a year, waiting for darcs to maybe get fixed" 15:30:54 e.g. quilt 15:31:08 -!- iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:31:48 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-165.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:32:23 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:32:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-165.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:32:40 to be honest, i'm pretty happy just using rebase -i, add -i, and occasionally citool 15:33:28 pjb: It's just strange because (progv (list (intern "X")) '(1) x) => 1 15:33:50 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:33:55 do you need a variable to exist before creating a new 'variable binding' in CLHS-speak? 15:34:26 you need to declare it special 15:34:38 bumb [joo@79.133.200.37] has joined #lisp 15:34:58 -!- bumb [joo@79.133.200.37] has quit [Quit: bumb] 15:35:40 sykopomp: and x is not lexical in your example, so it's assumed to be special by your implementation 15:36:07 Radium [~carbon@117.203.6.123] has joined #lisp 15:36:14 -!- dca [~user@178.252.127.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:36:49 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 15:37:01 dca [~user@178.252.127.251] has joined #lisp 15:37:04 right. I was trying to understand the behavior because the entry for progv doesn't spell out how lexical/dynamic vars interact in it. 15:37:30 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-1-86.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 15:38:15 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:38:48 -!- pnq [~nick@AC820F04.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:40:30 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 15:40:40 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:41:16 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs27100107.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:45:48 Kryztof [~user@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:45:53 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:50:45 -!- setekhid [~setekhid@223.65.9.231] has left #lisp 15:50:50 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-165.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:51:55 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-165.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:53:08 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.6.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:55:47 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 15:56:51 sykopomp: that's because there's no lexical binding, so the compiler has no choice but to issue a special variable reference. 15:57:07 (let ((x 42)) (progv (list (intern "X")) '(1) x)) --> 42 15:57:21 Here there is a lexical variable x, so the compiler finds it and deals with it. 15:57:29 dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:39 I think that (progv (list (intern "X")) '(1) x) is not conforming, because here X is a free variable. 15:57:55 You would have to write: (progv (list (intern "X")) '(1) (eval 'x)) to make it conforming. 15:58:34 would it really be conforming? My interpretation of what stassats said is that you needed to declare X to be dynamic *before* ever having progv bind it. 15:59:25 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@75.Red-88-7-128.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:41 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@75.Red-88-7-128.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:56 sykopomp: I think that may be one correct reading of the standard, yes. 16:00:03 does anyone have an example on how to use the clunky case when else syntax with postmodern? i can't get an else clause to work. 16:00:27 H4ns: I would've thought you could find tons of them in that codebase. 16:00:44 sykopomp: let me check 16:00:51 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.115.245] has joined #lisp 16:02:04 sykopomp: seems as if someone hacked s-sql to support else 16:02:14 sykopomp: well, you can have a dynamic binding without a global declaration of specialness. The question is whether progv implies an implicit local declaration of specialness. I'd say that it does, since it's specified to create new dynamic variable bindings. 16:02:20 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:21 sykopomp: vanilla postmodern does not seem to do it. 16:02:52 sykopomp: but you're right that with a call to (eval 'x) you would have to declaim x special before calling eval. 16:03:04 H4ns: here's an example I found in my own code: (:case ((:is-null 'n.id) 'd.description) (t 'n.nickname)) 16:03:16 (progv '(x) '(1) x #|<- local special variable|#) 16:03:51 Well only the (let ((x 42)) (progv '(x) '(1) x #|<- lexical variable|#)) case shows that progv doesn't declare it special. 16:03:54 So there :-) 16:04:12 sykopomp: ah, that is nice. in that codebase, there was indeed a change to make :else work, but the t is fine. 16:04:26 sykopomp: thank you! 16:04:31 H4ns: np! 16:04:59 You would have to write: (let ((variables (compute-variable-list))) (proclaim `(special ,@variables)) (progv variables (compute-value-list) (eval (form-with variables)))) to make it conforming. 16:05:08 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-121-223-199-47.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:05:56 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:06:04 And runtime proclamations of specialness can be funny while you're incrementally developing your program :-) 16:06:06 pjb: yeah. When I've used progv in the past, it seemed to me implementations generally allow undeclared variables, so that's how I've always used it. 16:06:31 but the funky behavior of lexical vs dynamic might be a good reason to try and make sure they're already declared somewhere. 16:07:03 -!- dca [~user@178.252.127.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:07:27 dca [~user@178.252.127.251] has joined #lisp 16:08:01 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:08:05 -!- treyka [~treyka@ip-188-118-20-209.reverse.destiny.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:08:20 i don't get why PROGV doesn't signal any warnings 16:08:31 stassats: why would it? 16:08:41 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-165.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:08:41 the variable could be locally declared special in some places 16:08:48 or accessed through symbol-value. 16:09:00 to help catch errors 16:09:09 I don't see the error. 16:09:30 logical errors 16:09:49 a style warning, *maybe*, but I would find it most annoying in exactly the cases it's meant to be used (embedding interpreters that use CL's special lookup directly) 16:10:09 please make DEFCLASS signal a style-warning for undeclared generic functions while you're at it, please. 16:10:38 sykopomp: huh? 16:10:52 *sykopomp* is just being picky. 16:11:25 I don't even understand what situation would trigger the style warning you're looking for. 16:11:36 he wants warning on :accessor foo not being declared as (defgeneric) before 16:11:44 ^ 16:11:59 would kind of suck i think, unless there is sb-ext:muffle for it 16:12:12 ah. That'd piss off more people than it'd help, I would think. 16:12:17 I'm saying those cases should have the same "Implicitly creating new generic function X" style-warning. 16:12:26 probably, unfortunately. 16:12:29 pkhuong: SETQ signals a full warning, while the variable can be declared special somewhere up in the stack 16:12:59 stassats: SETQ mutates an inexistent binding. PROGV creates a new one. 16:14:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-165.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:15:08 alright, i don't really care, i'm not going to use PROGV anytime soon 16:15:18 chturne [~chturne@2.28.99.43] has joined #lisp 16:16:02 that makes as much sense as asking that (let ((x 42)) (declare (special x)) ...) signal a style warning if X isn't globally special. 16:16:15 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-409524.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:16:41 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 16:16:50 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 16:16:52 Greetings lispers 16:19:03 -!- kilon_away [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 16:20:32 I've made some updates to my docbrowser tool, and I would like some feedback. What I did was to hide all functions that are default accessor functions for classes, and document those together with the slot information in the "Classes" tab instead. 16:21:08 So, for example, in the following page, there is no entry for, say, CHUNKED-STREAM-INPUT-CHUNKING-P in the function list. That one is only mentioned under that slot in the classes tab: 16:21:19 http://docbrowser.dhsdevelopments.com/show_package?id=CHUNGA\ 16:21:21 http://docbrowser.dhsdevelopments.com/show_package?id=CHUNGA 16:21:24 Is that good? 16:21:34 pkhuong: alright, makes sense then 16:21:46 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:22:08 *maxm* is wondering if (declare (x special)) without let in 2 separate functions, and communicating through it, could be a useful pattern? without having a defvar or let 16:22:37 It is. It's what I call local special variables. 16:22:44 (declare (special x)) 16:22:48 in fact I just tried it, and it works, but weirdly enough just "x" from repl prints the last assigned value to it, but (setq x something) gives error about undefined variable 16:23:17 is something a defined variable? 16:23:28 no constant 16:23:30 maxm: SBCL? simple forms don't go through the compioler. 16:23:38 yea plain sbcl repl 16:23:48 ajohnson` [~user@h66-173-26-254.mntimn.dedicated.static.tds.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:51 or by error you men warning? 16:24:14 let me paste code http://paste.lisp.org/display/129173 16:24:29 Which is why it's useful to (set '*evaluator-mode* :interpret) to live patch a b0rked compiler (: 16:24:43 maxm: no error there, only a warning. 16:24:45 maxm: i see no errors ther 16:24:46 e 16:24:47 loke: I haven't been following your doc browser. Is it supposed to document the external API or everything? 16:25:07 I meant warning not error sorry 16:25:16 ThomasH: yes. It documents the external API for all apckages in your VM 16:25:42 ThomasH: the site I posted is just a test site, the idea is that you run it in your own image 16:27:07 ThomasH: source code is here if you're interested: http://code.google.com/p/docbrowser/source/checkout 16:27:27 loke: Ok. Organizing the slot accessors with the slots hides them a bit. What didn't work about including them on the function tab? 16:27:45 ThomasH: Some packages has a _lot_ of accessors 16:27:46 -!- ajohnson` [~user@h66-173-26-254.mntimn.dedicated.static.tds.net] has left #lisp 16:28:02 ThomasH: basically 80% of the function list became accessors. 16:28:19 loke: Yeah, I can see how that would be a problem. 16:30:53 Perhaps I should add a checkbox to show/hide those 16:30:55 hmm, actually the specialness had quickly taught me to put earmuffs on "play" vars in repl 16:31:23 due to (defvar win (make-some-test-window)) and later all code having lexical win miscompiling 16:32:05 but I just realized, with above pattern, I can make (deftemp x (whatever)) from REPL, then x having the right value in repl, without having any lexical x affected 16:32:09 which is kind of cool 16:32:37 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:32:42 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-244.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:44 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 16:33:31 in fact since in developing qt, where I it uses repl-eval-hook to pass forms into gui thread, and the dotted calls qt converter, I can just replace any (defvar ..) (defparameter..) and (setq) done from repl with above thing 16:33:40 *maxm* likes making his life easier 16:33:49 ticking_ [4a7d9e56@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.125.158.86] has joined #lisp 16:37:56 -!- ticking_ [4a7d9e56@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.125.158.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:39:27 ghost_ [~ticking@218.22.21.23] has joined #lisp 16:42:58 -!- Ynot [~Y@sd-24164.dedibox.fr] has left #lisp 16:44:31 -!- ghost_ [~ticking@218.22.21.23] has left #lisp 16:50:03 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-165.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:56:00 doxygen can't be the right way to document code when it results in a 500MB *gzipped* tarball. 16:56:44 what's a 500MB in this day and age 16:57:34 that's either way too much information or a lot of filler. 16:57:49 Odin- [~sbkhh@214-106-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is] has joined #lisp 16:58:45 ah. It seems to be mostly pngs. gzip only saves ~1/3. 16:59:27 achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:14 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-njaoezphrkdwgsuj] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:04:13 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-sxpgrpkddcysofpe] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:04:40 -!- Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.115.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:08:18 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:10:01 m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.146] has joined #lisp 17:10:40 sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 17:16:46 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:18:25 -!- chturne [~chturne@2.28.99.43] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:21:34 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-35-217-237.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 17:23:50 -!- achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:23:57 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joined #lisp 18:13:25 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-107-122-25.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14:37 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:15:28 When you launch an infinite loop in slime from a .lisp buffer, how can you cancel it? 18:15:30 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-116-235.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:15:39 (it's run in a separate thread) 18:16:10 can you kill it from the thread inspector? 18:16:11 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-154-89.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:25 How do you reach the thread inspector? 18:17:04 -!- ikki [~ikki@fixed-203-69-105.iusacell.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:17:11 C-c C-x t 18:17:15 or M-x slime-list-threads 18:17:33 Ok, thanks. 18:17:54 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:18:06 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:18:10 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:18:32 pkhuong: set doxygen to create _not_ antialiased PNGs - that should reduce the size by ~90% or so. 18:18:38 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-226-252.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:19:09 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 18:23:57 kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@173-166-107-217-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:16 stat [~stat@dslb-094-218-224-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:21 sykopomp: how did you know about that command?: I've been trying to follow this http://www.pchristensen.com/slimecommands.pdf 18:25:28 never would have guessed slime could do that 18:25:38 cool 18:26:41 dekuked: Probably the same way you just found out about it -- someone mentioning it in a relevant context on IRC. 18:27:08 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-140-93.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:27:11 *maxm* usually discovers new commands by doing M-x slime.*list 18:27:13 or similar 18:27:26 to see if package has any commands related to list or threads or whatever 18:28:40 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:29:48 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-121.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:29:57 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-192-121.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:10 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-20-97.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:30:39 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-206.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:31:02 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-206.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:32:57 -!- kmcorbett_ [kmcorbett@clozure-C1AA9842.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 18:34:27 sykopomp: ah okay, just wondering 18:34:50 -!- kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@173-166-107-217-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:35:44 ikki [~ikki@fixed-203-69-105.iusacell.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:28 kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@173-166-107-217-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:27 -!- mon_key` [~user@74-143-70-82.static.insightbb.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:40:10 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 18:40:38 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:31 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.169.159] has quit [Quit: tensorpudding] 18:43:42 *maxm* keeps stepping on (let ((t (some-kind-of-time)))...) having for some reason "whats a one letter for var containing time => t" somehow hardwired in the brain 18:44:07 it's easier to access slime-list-threads from slime-selector 18:44:49 http://slime-tips.tumblr.com/post/10980136698/slime-selector and http://slime-tips.tumblr.com/post/11313993519/monitoring-and-controlling-threads 18:45:08 dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has joined #lisp 18:48:43 tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.169.159] has joined #lisp 18:50:31 -!- eli 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seconds] 19:00:21 -!- katerbau [~axel@xdsl-81-173-154-77.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: katerbau] 19:01:57 nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:36 eli [~eli@racket/eli] has joined #lisp 19:02:41 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:02:41 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-121-60.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:54 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 19:03:16 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:08:22 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA103C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:11:16 gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has joined #lisp 19:12:35 -!- The_third_bug [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:13:14 adasfdasfgo [b1205e0b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.32.94.11] has joined #lisp 19:15:38 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:39 tougas [~tougas@64.238.96.125] has joined #lisp 19:17:01 dardoria [~boiantz@92-247-214-154.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 19:17:53 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 19:17:54 -!- dardoria [~boiantz@92-247-214-154.spectrumnet.bg] has left #lisp 19:20:53 two- [~textual@67.23.193.215] has joined #lisp 19:20:56 -!- adasfdasfgo [b1205e0b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.32.94.11] has left #lisp 19:22:39 -!- ikki [~ikki@fixed-203-69-105.iusacell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:23:36 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.17] has joined #lisp 19:24:00 can format wrap text? 19:25:56 H4ns: yes 19:26:06 ~ H4ns: ~<~@:> I think, maybe ~:< 19:26:22 ok, thanks 19:28:15 it's more complicated than that 19:28:28 no i just need to comprehend the description. 19:31:38 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@76-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:00 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.92.62] has joined #lisp 19:32:48 (let ((*print-right-margin* 10)) (format t "~<~a ~a ~a~@:>" (make-list 20))) seems to work 19:33:43 differently in each implementation 19:33:54 H4ns: i think you're better doing it yourself 19:34:16 stassats: yes, seems like it. 19:34:16 So it doesn't wrap text, it wraps list of words. 19:34:25 thanks! 19:35:45 and errors on clisp 19:36:40 -!- FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: http://www.facefox.com] 19:36:54 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81875A.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:37:31 clisp doesn't like (format t "~<~a ~a ~a~:>" '(1 2 3)) 19:38:02 Because it's not good. 19:38:04 Try: (format t "~<~a ~a ~a~:>" 1 2 3) 19:38:15 ~< is not like ~{. If you want to process a list you need ~{ too. 19:38:16 because clisp is not good? 19:38:32 Because your arguments are not good. 19:38:55 pnq [~nick@AC81875A.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:57 why, what clhs says is not good enough for clisp anymore? 19:39:14 FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:18 -!- FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:39:53 FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:56 -!- FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:42:09 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 19:42:56
hello, does anyone know how to find the current version from a running SBCL? 19:43:06 clhs l-i-v 19:43:06 lisp-implementation-version: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_lisp_i.htm 19:43:10 FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:14 -!- FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:43:47 FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:50 -!- FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:44:01
stassats: Thanks! (I can't believe I missed that when looking through the output of (apropos 'version) !) 19:44:14
... that's /exactly/ what I was after! :) 19:45:10 FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:14 -!- FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:45:52 FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:56 -!- FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:46:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:46:19 -!- anonus [anonymous@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:2cc7] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:46:31 FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:34 -!- FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:46:34 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:48:25 FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:16 anonus [anonymous@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:2cc7] has joined #lisp 19:50:25 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:50 ikki [~ikki@fixed-203-69-105.iusacell.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:32 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 19:55:44 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81875A.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:57:56 -!- dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has left #lisp 19:58:33 -!- stat [~stat@dslb-094-218-224-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:00:09 -!- ikki [~ikki@fixed-203-69-105.iusacell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:01:11 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 20:09:05 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 20:09:38 -!- xan__ [~xan@80.174.78.241.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:11:05 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 20:12:39 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:14:15 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:15:13 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 20:17:04 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.195.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 20:17:47 -!- dekuked [~user@mail.kesnermorrissey.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:17:52 -!- FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:18:42 dekuked [~user@mail.kesnermorrissey.com] has joined #lisp 20:19:53 FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:49 https://github.com/rpav/CheckL <- shameless self-promotion. easy dynamic testing that integrates with FiveAM! 20:23:11 *j_king* checks. 20:23:16 *stassats* checkls 20:23:29 'touche 20:23:52 what's "dynamic testing" ? 20:23:56 oGMo: what's up with directory t? is it written in t? 20:24:03 t, the scheme dialect 20:24:26 fe[nl]ix: it means you just write the code that returns the result, and it remembers. if it changes in the future, it lets you know 20:24:36 if the new value is right, you keep it 20:25:30 then you can write all the values to a file for later, and it's text so you can put it in your VCS 20:25:52 fe[nl]ix: probabilistic testing 20:26:10 ah, this way 20:26:13 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.66.141] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 20:26:14 dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 20:26:26 I thought it would be extension to quickcheck features in fiveam 20:26:32 is that like quickcheck? 20:27:31 probably, i haven't seen those, and i didn't see them looking at the docs for fiveam today, so :p 20:27:54 oh 20:27:56 No, quickcheck is randomized testing. 20:27:59 no, nothing like that 20:28:58 this is for _defining_ your tests without all the headache, then letting you drop them into fiveam later without any _more_ headache, and then integrating it all with asdf _still_ without headache 20:30:49 so, instead of generators, you write historical data 20:33:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:53 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:34:10 FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has joined #lisp 20:34:19 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 20:35:01 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:35:47 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:35:52 basically .. i mean my workflow is generally "test the function and make sure the result is right" so i figured, why not automate 20:35:55 -!- n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@178.47.211.115] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 20:36:05 writing values into a source file is essentially historical data anyway 20:36:56 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-144-126.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:36 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-144-126.as43234.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:38:04 heh chinese guys sent me wrong glasses and given 50% discount. So I ordered most expensive +$200 lenses for $100 20:39:49 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-126-94.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:40:50 i don't have glasses, maybe that's why i don't see how this is on topic? 20:40:55 dlowe: https://github.com/slyrus/time-interval 20:41:19 stassats: i'll be writing better code in pimped out glasses 20:41:27 stassats: my glasses are programmed in lisp. 20:41:39 obviously we need pimped out wearable computer programmed in lisp 20:42:00 who's up for porting movitz to google's thing? 20:43:11 what google thing? 20:43:20 ah, glasses 20:43:36 well, i have ccl running on that other google thing 20:43:52 -!- dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:44:22 I hear the one thing will run the other thing 20:44:28 so that's probably close enough 20:45:18 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 20:48:34 -!- dekuked [~user@mail.kesnermorrissey.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:16 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:52:09 -!- tougas [~tougas@64.238.96.125] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:52:26 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-35-219-144.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:02 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.195.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:56:51 -!- BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:59:33 -!- asvil [~asvil@37.45.196.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:59:46 -!- ``Erik_ [~erik@66-118-151-70.static.sagonet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:59:52 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.209.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:47 BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:15 -!- pinterface1 [~pinterfac@173-22-6-159.client.mchsi.com] has left #lisp 21:10:02 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:12:07 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:14:31 -!- gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:14:34 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:15:27 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:15:42 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 21:16:42 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 21:17:40 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 21:18:00 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:18:45 katerbau [~axel@xdsl-81-173-154-77.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:20:49 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 21:21:05 booyaa` [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:08 Does anyone have tips for running a lisp in small memory ($7 VPS = 128MB)? Is clisp my best option? It's the only compiler I have found that starts up with < 8MB resident (or under 25MB resident, for that matter). 21:22:35 add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-1-86.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 21:22:40 oconnore: yes. 21:22:49 Then you may try ecl. 21:23:03 clozure might work out, in 32bit mode, and with lots of swap and locked down max memory 21:23:29 -!- Kryztof [~user@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:24:11 setting up (optimize (size 3)) might help, too 21:24:34 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@75.Red-88-7-128.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:24:52 p_l: I love clozure, but I couldn't get it to reduce initial memory usage using the command line flags, perhaps there are options I don't know about? 21:25:07 unsure, haven't used it for that 21:25:24 ok 21:26:06 oconnore: you mean virtual memory? 21:26:22 oconnore: make sure that you try out what happens if you hit the memory allocation limit. sbcl crashes hard in that case, don't know about other implementations. 21:26:29 ccl -n -R $((64*1024*1024)) <--- seems to work 21:26:42 diginet [~diginet@adsl-69-153-135-124.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:54 I ended up with virtual space as 168M 21:27:09 stassats: I don't care about virtual memory, just resident. 21:27:45 stassats: if it isn't paged in, it doesn't count against my quota 21:28:16 right now it shows ~5M for me as resident, but linux is unreliable in reporting 21:28:57 oconnore: well then, command line options won't help you 21:29:00 oconnore: the image is mapped from file 21:29:11 -R sets reserve for heap expansion 21:30:23 i have a long running ccl process, and it consumes 43M, on 64-bit 21:31:14 can I get ccl in a terminal window instead of the weird GUI thing? 21:31:21 I just want to type it at my shell 21:31:34 jroes: what OS? 21:31:39 p_l: osx 21:31:40 os x 21:31:46 what else? 21:31:47 in OSX, just launch the lisp, not the IDE 21:32:02 ccl has no gui except on osx 21:32:09 whats the bin called? 21:32:16 Farzad [Farzad@46.225.107.185] has joined #lisp 21:32:21 `ccl` isn't in my path 21:33:04 /cl 21:33:10 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 21:33:11 gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has joined #lisp 21:33:22 ikki [~ikki@fixed-203-69-105.iusacell.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:25 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:33:41 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:33:41 try: locate 86cl.image 21:34:00 -!- katerbau [~axel@xdsl-81-173-154-77.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: katerbau] 21:34:02 jroes: there's ccl in scripts directory 21:34:03 should find you the executable (executable will be *without* .image suffix) 21:34:27 jroes: edit the paths in it and put it in your path 21:34:52 -!- booyaa` [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:36:29 aha! This is excellent: I was using ccl trunk by accident. I moved to the 1.8 stable release and resident usage dropped to 4.6MB on startup 21:36:29 -!- Farzad [Farzad@46.225.107.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:36:31 hum 21:36:47 who cares about usage on startup? 21:37:09 https://gist.github.com/7bd4005da2caca1d00a4 21:37:13 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:37:20 that's a bit odd 21:37:28 stassats: people who are running a process on a 128MB VPS? Why is that so confusing? 21:37:59 it's confusing because i doubt you just run $ ccl and do nothing else 21:38:21 stassats: of course I do other things, but I have to have room for those other things. 21:38:30 jroes: did you "edit the paths" 21:38:46 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:38:48 oconnore: so, why don't you measure the real things then? 21:39:34 stassats: *oh*, you meant edit the paths within that script. hah! 21:39:50 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 21:40:07 jroes: i did, yes, you can else set CCL_DEFAULT_DIRECTORY 21:40:28 and there're two ccl scripts, ccl64 and ccl 21:41:46 stassats: because if the process is taking up too much memory, I can't run those other things? I suppose I could measure usage on my 64 bit laptop, but that would be a useless measurement. 21:42:23 you can run 32-bit ccl on your laptop 21:42:44 oconnore: usage on startup doesn't tell you anything except deceiving you 21:47:44 stassats: it tells me a lot. If I have 20MB to work with, and I start with 5MB resident, then I have 15MB to work with. If I start with 20MB resident, I can't do anything at all. 21:48:49 if you have 5MB resident on start up, and load 15MB of your own data, doesn't mean that you won't end up with 45MB 21:49:41 -!- diginet [~diginet@adsl-69-153-135-124.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:50:35 the size of the CCL image is 26M, it shows you just 5M, because it didn't load everything, because you didn't force it to, so your measurements are worthless 21:50:45 stassats: I don't believe I ever made that assertion. 21:50:47 load your app, run it, and then you will see what you actually want to see 21:52:42 stassats: the only assertion I am making is that if I have 20MB to work with, and CCL starts with 28MB resident, it is a non-starter. Give up and go home. Luckily that did not end up being the case. I don't understand what your point is. 21:53:25 the 5MB it shows you are not real 21:53:32 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:53:34 how many times do you want me to repeat it? 21:54:28 oconnore: the thing is that implementation A may start with 2 MB free, but can allocate 1 M conses in that space, while another may start with 4 MB free, but can allocate only 128 K conses. 21:54:52 oconnore: or one implementation may deal with 8bit/char strings while the other needs 32bit/char. 21:55:19 it that it doesn't allocate anything, but mmaps a file, and until it doesn't access the parts it needs for your application to work, the OS won't load them into memory 21:55:39 which makes measurements worthless 21:55:42 stassats: You are being ridiculous. If the program eventually exceeds available memory I will have to adjust. Right now I am just happy that I can get to a repl. 21:56:17 saying right things is ridiculous now, great 21:56:23 well, good luck then 21:57:04 well, I'm testing how much memory will some common webappy set of libs take 21:57:47 32bit SBCL is workable on 128MB vps if you are only deploying this app and nothing more 21:58:07 stassats: I understand that you are correct. The 5MB is a lie. I am still happy that I can get to a REPL. I understand that it may not end up working. I don't care right now, there is plenty of time to change later. If worse comes to worse, I can upgrade my VPS. It's not that big of a deal. 21:58:23 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:58:35 i start ccl, top shows RES is 5MB, run (ccl:gc), and it shows me 14M 21:58:41 i don't see what you're happy about 21:58:48 hmmm... I got to 174M, but I didn't account for file mappings 21:59:00 stassats: 14M is better than 28M 21:59:12 14M are not real as well 22:00:22 with HUNCHENTOOT POSTMODERN YACLML DRAKMA CL-JSON I get ~34M from (room) 22:02:47 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-107-3-142-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:09 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-116-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:07:38 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:11:33 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA103C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:16:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:18:56 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:20:17 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:21:18 paul0 [~paul0@200.175.62.106.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 22:21:22 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-1-86.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 22:21:37 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#lisp 23:19:45 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:21:43 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 23:22:05 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.169.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:22:16 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:22:22 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 23:22:24 -!- tensorpudding_ is now known as tensorpudding 23:23:10 jackrabbit [~kyle@arh2050.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 23:23:48 -!- jackrabbit is now known as jack_rabbit 23:25:22 turns out, portable programs can't define primary methods for classes on initialize-instance 23:25:37 MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has joined #lisp 23:25:48 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:26:08 and commonqt did, and ccl recently changed so that it doesn't like it anymore, spent more than an hour figuring it out 23:26:39 Does anyone here know how to load clisp modules? I'm totally new to it. 23:27:12 jack_rabbit: are you talking about clisp, the common lisp implementation? 23:27:24 well, it's fixed now, but the CFFI folks remain suspiciously silent on that issue which prevents commonqt from working 23:27:33 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 23:28:21 what's a primary method? 23:28:42 clhs glossary/primary method 23:28:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_p.htm#primary_method 23:28:43 Yes. I've done work with SBCL in the past, and have worked with raw sockets in C, and now I am trying to use raw sockets in lisp, using CLISP. 23:29:16 I've been reading a reference page for something called rawsock, which appears to be a CLISP "module" 23:29:38 jack_rabbit: did you try require yet? 23:29:47 slyrus_: "In standard method combination, primary methods are unqualified methods and auxiliary methods are methods with a single qualifier that is one of :around, :before, or :after." 23:30:10 ok, thanks stassats 23:30:35 and i already started writing up a bug report to CCL, good think i check my facts 23:30:36 thing 23:30:37 yes. I did (require "rawsock") 23:31:00 But got "no such file" or somesuch 23:31:22 "LOAD: A file with name rawsock does not exist" 23:32:07 nice to see somebody developed what I had in my head only as a rough idea into an actual product: http://www.clojureatlas.com/?ring-session=916f7e8a-6f55-4b79-b753-5c8d90ecf51a 23:32:23 i guess i need to make a solid write up on that cffi issue and put it in the bug tracker, complaining on the ML and here didn't get me anywhere 23:32:26 for clojure, but oh well (: 23:32:31 jack_rabbit: not knowing clisp well, i'm guessing that it is a compile-time option 23:32:59 What exactly does that mean? 23:34:11 jack_rabbit: that i don't have a clue. i'm just looking at the manual and the source code. 23:34:18 antifuchs: the audio is out of sync! 23:34:24 aw no 23:35:12 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:15 or flash just fucks it up, as usual 23:35:30 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:33 Well in that case, is there some standard way that network devices are exposed to lisp? 23:36:41 jack_rabbit: no standard way, but maybe iolib has something 23:36:58 diginet [~diginet@adsl-69-153-135-124.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:53 well, file system access is standard, just look in /proc or /sys 23:38:14 :) Everything is a file! God I love *nix. 23:38:44 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 23:39:17 Alright. Thanks H4ns and stassats. I'll have a look at iolib and standard file access. 23:40:44 -!- Phooodus is now known as Phoodus 23:42:30 -!- two- [~textual@67.23.193.215] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:45:10 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@arh2050.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:47:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-64-50.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 23:47:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-64-50.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 23:47:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 23:49:55 is there a way to know how much memory a variable or a list is using? 23:50:02 no 23:50:16 -!- diginet [~diginet@adsl-69-153-135-124.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:50:36 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:51:16 not portably 23:52:01 how does the (time (some-form)) work then. it has a way to monitor the mem usage, or the profiling. we got no access to such things? 23:52:21 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:52:30 Farzad: it does it in an unportable fashion 23:52:47 (let ((free-memory (free-memory))) (some-form) (- free-memory (free-memory))) 23:52:54 -!- MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:53:26 Farzad: CL:TIME is allowed to call implementation-specific routines 23:53:28 but it won't tell you how much memory your list is using 23:53:30 like GC counter 23:53:39 p_l: what isn't allowed? 23:53:51 everything CL is allowed to call whatever it wants 23:54:08 stassats: true. 23:54:20 my answer could have been misunerstood 23:55:16 Farzad: why do you need to know, though? 23:55:50 -!- xjrn [~innocuous@c-67-174-244-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56:23 i am heavily using classes, with lots of slot, just wanna make sure it's not getting too much mem 23:57:04 well, just use them and see how much memory your implementation is using 23:57:05 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:57:13 MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has joined #lisp 23:57:32 in what package is the (free-memory)? 23:57:35 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:57:43 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:43 it's in my head 23:57:49 oh lol 23:57:52 -!- Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has quit [Quit: even in laughter, the heart of Snorlax is sorrowful. and the end of that mirth is heaviness.] 23:58:29 TIME will call the right free-memory for you, if you need it 23:58:36 antonv [5d7d3142@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp 23:59:34 it's a bit complicated, the classes i mentioned are representing html tags, and they change on the fly, the children