00:01:27 Xach: thanks. 00:01:29 rstill [~rstill@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 00:01:45 DataLinkDroid [~David@101.171.224.235] has joined #lisp 00:02:06 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-244.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:16 pjb: so was it automatic or manual? 00:02:23 -!- rstill [~rstill@12.104.148.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:33 Well, I restarted before, I'll tell you if it's not automatic next time I add a .asd. 00:07:08 -!- oiig_ [~eohnik@112.161.134.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:09:55 oukkei 00:10:02 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:10:35 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:24 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@188-143-62-18.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:16:37 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-244.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:17:21 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:22:50 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@037096130202.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:24:08 pun [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 00:26:12 mtbeedee [~mbeattie@ool-4576faf3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:54 dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-184-119.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:25 Hey, I have a question... how can I find all of the elements in a list that contain matches by some function for all elements in another list... like 00:27:37 if I have a list ("aa" "ab" "cc" "bb" "abc") 00:27:43 With CFFI, is it possible to make the GC aware of a foreign object so it can free it using a specific function? 00:27:48 and another list ("a" "b") 00:27:56 I would find "ab" and "abc" 00:28:10 fukushim_ [~fukushima@z128.124-44-151.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:28:23 it's not immediately clear how that works, mtbeedee, I don't think. Why not "bb"? 00:28:33 because "bb" doesnt' match "a" 00:28:44 it needs to "contain" both a and b 00:28:55 Would it match "b" "a"? 00:29:10 it would match the string "ba" yes 00:29:13 but not "b" or "a" 00:29:43 -!- fukushima [~fukushima@z128.124-44-151.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:29:57 basically like the second list was a filter where all of the strings there are contained within any matching string in the first list 00:30:09 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:30:11 like 00:30:16 You can probably code that up pretty easily using find and mapping. 00:31:02 yea... I am trying to figure that out.. 00:31:06 here's what I got so far... 00:31:14 (setq x '("aa" "ab" "cc" "bb" "abc")) 00:31:19 (remove-if #'null (map 'list #'(lambda (y) (when (search "a" y) y)) x)) 00:31:24 but that only works on one element 00:31:40 gigamonkey_ [~gigamonke@adsl-108-200-141-91.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:43 also it seems a bit much 00:32:08 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:32:08 -!- gigamonkey_ is now known as gigamonkey 00:34:07 didi: see trivial-garbage 00:35:57 maxm: Thank you. 00:37:08 -!- simon_weber [u4119@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-npjrvnanewpslcvx] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:37:10 -!- ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:37:58 oiig_ [~eohnik@112.161.134.227] has joined #lisp 00:38:00 simon_weber [u4119@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-adyogiphtvekqcvu] has joined #lisp 00:39:38 mtbeedee: I personally don't like to ladder up mapping like that.. I would make a matches? predicate with FLET, then use (remove-if-not #'matches x) 00:39:40 -!- X-Scale [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:40:48 Xach: in the case of a plain directory in local-projects, the asd is found automatically with ql:quickload in ccl-1.8. I'll check later for asd in symlinked directories. 00:40:53 mtbeedee: predicate could look like (flet ((matches (x) (every (lambda (c) (find c x) y)))) ....) 00:42:00 -!- paul0 [~paul0@200.175.60.174.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 00:42:31 mtbeedee: (remove-if-not (lambda (item) (every (lambda (other) (some-function item other)) another-list)) list) 00:42:33 pjb I had hit this before, ql uses (directory "**/*.asd"), which does not work right in older sbcl/ccl, don't remember which version it was fixed it, but pretty recent one 00:42:51 "does not work right" when dirs are symlinks 00:42:56 X-Scale [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 00:43:13 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest33334 00:43:21 maxm: yes, I sent a patch to rebuild system-index in presence of symlinks to quicklisp, and I have it applied here, but indeed, it doesn't help for that situation. 00:43:22 hmm 00:44:17 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-108-200-141-91.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 00:47:37 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 00:48:39 so close pjb 00:48:48 swap the "item" and "other" in the inner lambda and it works 00:49:03 Well, you didn't tell anything about some-function! 00:49:10 heh 00:49:13 That said, good night! 00:49:13 CrLF0710` [~user@114.96.78.107] has joined #lisp 00:49:20 some-function could be (lambda (x y) (search y x)) :P 00:49:26 true 00:52:17 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:52:58 -!- Guest33334 [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:53:26 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:36 -!- pun [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Quit: Host computer in shutdown mode.] 00:55:32 klltkr [~klltkr@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:56:54 Guest33334 [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 01:02:18 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 01:04:21 -!- oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.245] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:08:10 -!- harish [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:15:53 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-244.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:58 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-243-183-57.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 01:19:10 -!- behelit [~behelit@c213-89-59-224.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:21:08 dekuked [~user@pool-108-20-217-59.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:29 -!- The_third_bug [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:22:37 The_third_bug [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:39 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 01:34:00 -!- flipout_1 [~scense@75-175-115-124.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [] 01:41:01 -!- Guest33334 is now known as X-Scale 01:41:35 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:41:43 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:44:01 Quux [ca091892@gateway/web/freenode/ip.202.9.24.146] has joined #lisp 01:46:55 -!- Quux [ca091892@gateway/web/freenode/ip.202.9.24.146] has quit [Client Quit] 01:47:10 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 01:47:34 is there an easy way to convert a string to an integer? 01:48:06 parse-integer ? 01:48:18 ah 01:48:18 ok 01:48:19 thanks 01:48:55 -!- mgodshall [~quassel@pool-108-36-207-226.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: beep] 01:50:02 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 01:50:57 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:51:53 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 01:52:27 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Symbol.htm 01:52:30 -!- X-Scale [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:52:34 The permuted index can be useful. 01:54:31 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:07:52 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has joined #lisp 02:09:13 -!- Kron [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:09:22 mcurry [~user@pool-98-109-86-196.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:07 ebobby [~fms@50-0-172-141.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:19 drumond19 [~drumond19@186.214.50.230] has joined #lisp 02:22:20 Man, FFIs are hard work. 02:25:39 It's often better not to use them. 02:25:56 Consider some form of IPC. 02:27:20 hello 02:27:52 Zhivago: I'm currently using a shell process which I run a program and regex the output. I'm trying a different approach. 02:28:51 What problem are you trying to solve? 02:29:27 Zhivago: Issuing commands like up|down|mute volume to pulseaudio. 02:32:56 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 02:34:49 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 02:35:50 Maybe ECLS would make it easy, and you could then talk to that via a socket. 02:36:02 anyone know about a Lisp user group or gathering of some sort in or near San Francisco ? :p 02:38:11 Zhivago: Looking through pulseaudio sources I can see they use sockets, but I couldn't find a description of the protocol and talking to them the socket way is really down played. 02:38:47 I'm not suggesting that. 02:39:02 ECLS compiles to C and can link directly without an FFI. 02:39:35 You could write client in ECLS and then connect to that CL program via a socket. 02:39:40 paul0 [~paul0@200.175.60.174.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 02:39:43 Hum... 02:39:53 Sending s-exps or whatever you prefer. 02:40:05 -!- CampinSam [~Sam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:40:16 ECLS also supports inline C. 02:42:58 is there a way to have a list like (1,3,5) and a list like ("a" "b" "c" "d" "e") and have it return the 1st, 3rd, 5th elements of the 2nd list? 02:44:12 An infinite number of ways. 02:46:42 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:47:02 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 02:48:57 is there a simple built in function or do I need to go mapping lambdas or wahtever? 02:50:41 mtbeedee: just check 14.2 and 17.3, if there's not something there it's probably not built in. And I don't think there's a builtin for that, no. 02:50:53 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-44-164.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:51:06 what is 14.2 and 17.3? 02:51:12 Of the CLHS. 02:51:17 ah 02:51:24 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-4-228.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:55:14 -!- Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:55:32 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:55:55 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 02:56:06 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:56:28 -!- wyan [~wyan@92.243.10.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:56:47 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:56:47 Yuuhi``` [benni@p54839C1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:41 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-lxizhwwarrtlkcsb] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:57:54 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-ikpawdvndtdejnbh] has joined #lisp 02:58:07 wyan [~wyan@fnords.info] has joined #lisp 02:58:10 (map 'list (lambda (item) (nth (- item 1) '(4 5 6 7 8 9))) '(1 3 4)) 02:58:23 mapping lambdas did the trick again 02:58:23 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483A9D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:58:58 klltkr [~klltkr@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:59:18 Not very efficient, but sure. 03:00:06 -!- dekuked [~user@pool-108-20-217-59.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:00:12 you got a better answer? 03:02:08 By what metric? 03:02:27 you said mine wasn't "efficient" 03:02:32 so whatever you mean by that 03:02:54 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@adsl-68-217-196-137.ags.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:30 You could use nthcdr to avoid rewalking the list each time. 03:05:21 but then you need to reassign and subtract each subsequent number from the latter results 03:05:54 echo-are` [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 03:06:11 daedalus_ [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:50 -!- echo-are` [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:07:20 echo-are` [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 03:07:39 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:08:35 scrimohsin [~a9h6d5a@gateway/tor-sasl/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 03:09:13 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:35 -!- mel0on [1000@h-91-136.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:17:04 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 03:17:21 -!- The_third_bug [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:18:12 douglas19 [~drumond19@186.214.50.230] has joined #lisp 03:18:32 -!- douglas19 is now known as douglasdrumond19 03:19:40 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:21:04 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-10-24.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:21:27 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-44-164.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:21:51 -!- douglasdrumond19 [~drumond19@186.214.50.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:22:15 kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-176.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:22:33 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:22:53 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 03:22:57 The_third_bug [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:29 -!- dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-184-119.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:30:36 sellout: herep 03:30:45 felideon: t 03:30:56 -!- mcurry [~user@pool-98-109-86-196.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 03:31:57 this is a bit OT, but room is quiet. I hadn't realized Cocoa Emacs' annoying generic RGB vs sRGB bug 03:32:37 -!- scrimohsin [~a9h6d5a@gateway/tor-sasl/scrimohsin] has left #lisp 03:32:37 felideon: Yeah, quite annoying. Almost as annoying as not being able to use indexed color for terminal emacs ;) 03:33:11 indexed color? 03:33:16 felideon: I think someone patched emacs to use sRGB, but I don't think it's made it into trunk. 03:33:30 felideon: like 0-15 for a 16-color terminal. 03:33:38 ah 03:33:41 sellout: yeah i'm on emacs 24 pretest and still nothing. 03:34:08 sellout: well anyway, how did you (or your bug reporters) figure out the right colors to use in the theme? 03:34:15 i'm using a different theme :) 03:34:56 felideon: A lot of trial and error  comparing the colors to other apps (that don't have the bug) with the same theme. 03:35:15 felideon: And it'll still vary from machine to machine. I just tried to pick good-enoughs. 03:36:01 the first time i installed the theme i was like "err, this is weird/ugly" and just picked a different color. but today I realized that there was a bug. 03:36:28 sellout: gotcha, thought there was some trickery to calculating values back and forth :) 03:36:52 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 03:37:01 entrix_ [~entrix@93-80-137-91.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 03:37:10 felideon: Sorry, it's just messy :/ 03:37:22 no problem. :) 03:37:24 thanks anyway 03:37:26 -!- ebobby [~fms@50-0-172-141.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:38:23 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:39:20 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:41:47 -!- The_third_bug [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:42:00 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:42:32 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:42:43 BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:23 sellout: whoa 03:43:27 i fixed it 03:43:43 I set my Display profile to Generic RGB. 03:43:51 Oh, heh, nice :) 03:44:05 felideon: Did it mess up colors in other apps? 03:45:25 hmm not that i can tell, yet. 03:46:15 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:46:22 hmm looks awful with Flux disabled, dunno if it's just my eyes aren't used to it 03:46:52 actually, nope seems fine. 03:46:54 *felideon* stops rambling 03:47:55 teggi [~teggi@113.172.60.171] has joined #lisp 03:48:58 The_third_bug [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:18 -!- _tca [~tca@thewired.me] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:52:54 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 03:53:12 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-158-231.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:55:21 -!- homie [~levgue@78.35.173.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:55:52 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:57:11 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:57:38 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-94-204.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:57:41 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-94-204.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:57:42 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-60-224.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 03:57:43 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-60-224.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 03:57:46 Kwucks [ca091892@gateway/web/freenode/ip.202.9.24.146] has joined #lisp 03:59:14 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:43 -!- Kwucks [ca091892@gateway/web/freenode/ip.202.9.24.146] has quit [Client Quit] 04:00:58 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:02:19 Zhivago: I'll stick to my shell solution for now. For the future, I think I'll follow your advice. I like suck at FFIs. 04:02:29 Kwucks [ca091892@gateway/web/freenode/ip.202.9.24.146] has joined #lisp 04:04:03 -!- The_third_bug [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:04:44 s/like/really 04:05:09 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@adsl-68-217-196-137.ags.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:07:06 -!- Kwucks [ca091892@gateway/web/freenode/ip.202.9.24.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:09:05 -!- entrix_ [~entrix@93-80-137-91.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:09:14 -!- como [~como@cpe-67-244-7-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:10:49 The_third_bug [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:35 two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:19 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.60.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:17:32 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:18:15 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dca_ is now known as dca 05:08:27 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@249-58-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:00 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7033.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:11:12 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@249-58-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has left #lisp 05:12:22 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:12:35 -!- dnm__ is now known as dnm 05:12:41 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 05:17:13 -!- The_third_bug [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:17:25 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:20:58 The_third_bug [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:10 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 05:26:37 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 05:28:06 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-244.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:28:39 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[~user@pool-108-4-74-122.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:32:30 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-56.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:33:30 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 06:38:39 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:38:39 hi 06:39:41 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-216.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:41:28 nydel [~jo@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:05 -!- CrLF0710` [~user@114.96.78.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:45:29 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:45:31 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:46:16 [SLB] [casper@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 06:46:25 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.72.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:52:04 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:52:09 Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:19 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:02:07 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has joined #lisp 07:03:08 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:04:53 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:05:33 i'm having an odd problem i don't understand: 07:06:34 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:06:39 i compiled clisp on my system (ubuntu) & uploaded it to my shell account (gnu/linux) - it seems to work well, except any instance of (random()) i call returns the same results 07:07:07 <|3b|> clhs random 07:07:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_random.htm 07:07:16 (random ()) is nonsense 07:07:16 -!- achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:07:22 i did notice that when i uploaded the compiled clisp, some .h files did not upload because they were symbolic links on my system 07:07:38 nikodemus: thank you, how should i have said that> 07:07:41 ? 07:07:48 (random most-positive-fixnum) ; maybe 07:07:54 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:07:59 or (random 1.0) or something else 07:08:18 () is same as NIL, and not a valid input to RANDOM 07:08:19 (thank nikodemus kindly) 07:08:57 nikodemus: of course, sorry i was just using php 30 seconds ago & made a mistake 07:09:20 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-216.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:10:02 |3b|: thank you 07:11:04 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:11:16 ok. so does (list (random 1.0) (random 1.0)) return a list of two identical floats for you? 07:11:42 <|3b|> nydel: more specifically, you probably want to look at *RANDOM-STATE* and MAKE-RANDOM-STATE 07:12:16 *|3b|* is assuming you meant you get the same sequence every time you execute the program, not that it always returns the exact same value 07:13:19 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-175-3-20.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bed] 07:14:32 -!- [SLB] [casper@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: [ Il motivo per cui le persone sono meravigliose, non è forse perché credono nei sentimenti e uniscono le loro vite? ]] 07:14:50 yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has joined #lisp 07:17:12 echo "(print (random 78))" > tmp.lisp 07:17:20 clisp tmp.lisp 07:17:25 returns (27) every time 07:17:37 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 07:18:26 excuse me 07:18:35 it returns 27 every time. not a list 07:19:08 -!- chr [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:19:15 inside clisp repl, (random 78) returns a random interger between 0 & 77 each time 07:19:41 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 07:19:56 mason`` [~user@ip72-211-225-236.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:43 (random 1.0) returns a float 07:20:44 chr [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 07:21:13 nikodemus: any idea why this could be happening? 07:21:24 -!- mason` [~user@ip72-211-225-236.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:21:32 nydel: 09:11 <|3b|> nydel: more specifically, you probably want to look at *RANDOM-STATE* and MAKE-RANDOM-STATE 07:24:42 flip214: (make-random-state) makes no change to *RANDOM-STATE* - but (random 78) changes *RANDOM-STATE* 07:25:03 <|3b|> right, make-random-state just returns a new state, it doesn't store it anywhere 07:25:33 (make-random-state) returns the same value every time 07:25:35 <|3b|> and (make-random-state) just copies *random-state*, which won't help even if you did store it 07:25:53 <|3b|> (make-random-state t) makes a new one 07:26:18 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-121-223-199-47.lns3.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:26:21 nydel: (setf *random-state* (make-random-state t)) «Instead, the initialization of random-state objects is left to the implementor in the case where the argument t is given to make-random-state.» 07:26:31 -!- nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 07:27:01 but is there a reason that i only have this problem when feeding clisp a file? 07:27:30 nydel: clisp starts up with a consistent *random-state* 07:27:31 <|3b|> if you exit it and restart it, you should get the same set of numbers 07:28:03 <|3b|> (from the same set of calls to RANDOM) 07:28:13 so if my file just says "(random 78)" it should return the same value every time? 07:28:32 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:29:02 *|3b|* can't find anything in the spec that requires it, but i'd expect most implementations to do so 07:29:11 implementation defined 07:29:30 (setf *random-state* (make-random-state t)) to initialize *random-state* to a ... random ... state 07:30:16 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-56.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:30:37 "12.9. Random Numbers" says how to fix that - save a file with random-state, and read it back in 07:31:22 the file now contains "(setf *random-state* (make-random-state t))(random 78)" & works as i wanted 07:32:04 i believe i understand all this, thank you all very much 07:35:16 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 07:36:19 are read-macros global? 07:37:15 <|3b|> clhs *readtable* 07:37:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_rdtabl.htm 07:38:22 <|3b|> robot-beethoven: ^ as global as that (which depends on how you use it) 07:41:32 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:46:49 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:49:56 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 07:51:17 naeg [~naeg@170-18-182-46.NbIServ.com] has joined #lisp 07:52:40 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.47.30.170] has joined #lisp 07:54:30 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 07:55:41 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 07:56:17 so there's no way to make a read-macro that applies only to the parameter list of a specific macro call? 07:56:58 *|3b|* can't think of any particularly good ways 07:57:07 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:57:47 make your own read-macro for #\(, which detects that macro call in particular 07:58:02 <|3b|> yeah, that was the not-good way i could think of :) 07:58:20 ie. possible, but tricky, and probably brittle 07:59:35 but yeah, trying to make read-macros context-sensitive goes against the grain 07:59:46 Radium [~carbon@117.203.9.162] has joined #lisp 08:00:02 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:00:11 you can do it, but it's messy and not worth it unless you're writing a whole language on top of read-macros 08:01:24 would the #\( technique cause problems if multiple people applied it in different libraries that end up used together? 08:01:39 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:01:53 yes, but that applies to all read-macros, really 08:02:28 mind, there are ways you can do some of it pretty nicely. (1) readmacro for => magic-symbol or (magic form) (2) have the macro you want to treat that specially expand into (symbol-macrolet ((magic-symbol ...)) ...) or similar 08:02:44 Actually there's a way. E.g. make [foo] expand to (bracket ) and then with-foo-syntax uses macrolet on BRACKET 08:03:06 hey, echo :) 08:03:20 what's up tcr? 08:03:22 I always wanted to publish a library for that for people to rely on 08:03:57 the only issue is about choice of escape characters 08:04:17 hi nikodemus, I'm fine thanks. Just spent three months in the middle east. :-) 08:05:13 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:05:21 how's your arabic? 08:05:57 cl-syntax-sugar supposedly does some work with scoped readmacros and things like with-whatever-syntax. 08:06:35 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 08:07:05 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-102-254.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:07:31 given how often older code has ;;; Mode: foo Syntax: bar Package: baz magic starting lines in it, some old style environments must have had solutions for this 08:08:14 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-gjkmtnlhbslepiee] has joined #lisp 08:09:13 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:09:17 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:09:25 I originally envisioned Slime to be able to cope with that with named-readtables. 08:09:43 mal: That was more about using different Lisp dialects. Common Lisp vs. Zeta Lisp. 08:10:28 tcr: what did the Syntax thingy just do? 08:11:04 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 08:11:06 Tell the IDE what Lisp dialect the file contains 08:13:36 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 08:13:36 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 08:13:36 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:13:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-62-122.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 08:13:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-62-122.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 08:13:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:16:56 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-zlyveecxrmenfvqu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:17:04 -!- naeg [~naeg@170-18-182-46.NbIServ.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 08:17:39 nikodemus, tcr: I've been puzzling, but still don't understand your last two examples with the symbol-macrolet and [foo] expansion... 08:18:53 <|3b|> robot-beethoven: idea is to have a global read-macro, and add meaning locally 08:19:41 Kvaks [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 08:19:43 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:19:56 <|3b|> that way multiple projects can share the same macro, and each interpret it differently in different contexts 08:21:56 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:23:10 <|3b|> still hard to do 100% generically though, since it hard to decide in advance how something like ["]"] should read 08:24:12 sn0rri [~sn0rri@ppp141255064144.dsl.hol.gr] has joined #lisp 08:25:42 -!- gensym [~tg@85.158.178.76] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:26:11 Yes indeed 08:27:38 you could use *bracket-readtable* inside the [] 08:28:23 or (find-bracket-readtable-for-current-package) :) 08:29:48 kanru`` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:22 -!- edgar-rft 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MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:34:39 -!- nydel [~jo@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:39:39 imap.google.com doesn't resolve ??? 10:41:11 nope 10:41:19 What's up with that? 10:41:28 maybe it's mail.google.com? 10:41:30 I don't know 10:41:42 No. This is the advertised IMAP endpoint. 10:42:53 and this is the wrong channel 10:43:27 LIke anyone on the #google channel knows what IMAP is... 10:43:29 easye`: https://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=78799 and now stop it. 10:44:14 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:45:12 H4ns: I'm looking at that page, which clearly indicates that imap.gmail.com should resolve in DNS. I just needed confirmation that this is a current global state, and not specific to the US/EU networks I have control over. 10:45:41 easye`: and it does. 10:45:54 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.235.6] has joined #lisp 10:45:55 easye`: imap.google.com does not, though. can you stop it now? 10:46:10 Ah. Thanks for the typo. 10:46:25 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 10:48:12 Thanks for the warm and fuzzy feeling that #lisp is renown for. 10:48:50 easye`: you made me switch windows 4 times, each time thinking something worthwhile was going on. 10:49:42 easye`: there you got some toxine, too 10:50:03 pkhuong: this is IRC, not the _NY Review of Books_ 10:51:59 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Kryztof 10:52:15 -!- Kryztof has set mode +b *!~user@213.33.70.157 10:52:25 -!- Kryztof has set mode -o Kryztof 10:54:09 -!- tfb_ [~tfb@92.41.196.0.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:54:13 -!- CrLF0710` [~user@223.240.66.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:55:33 daedalus_ [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:08 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:58:08 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@101.171.224.235] has quit [Quit: Bye] 10:59:38 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-nogiorcslsbttyyh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:01:02 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:03:18 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 11:04:14 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs78186070.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:04:53 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:12:47 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:13:18 nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-233.math.tu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 11:14:13 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010179.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:46 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:17:10 -!- Hussaind is now known as Hussain_Away 11:17:13 -!- Hussain_Away is now known as Hussaind 11:17:34 -!- silenius [~silenius@i59F7529F.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:18:02 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs78186070.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:21:51 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:25:26 ikki [~ikki@189.247.202.179] has joined #lisp 11:30:34 -!- nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-233.math.tu-berlin.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:34:18 francogrex [~user@109.130.105.211] has joined #lisp 11:35:46 I have data in a list of 30 numbers, I want to sum the data from 0 to 5 and from 13 to 30 (skipping between 5 and 13) is it doable in one loop? 11:36:52 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-vlnzmsqokcjxhihd] has joined #lisp 11:40:26 <|3b|> (loop for i from 0 for n in numbers when (or (< 0 i 5) (< 13 i 30)) sum n) ? 11:41:54 (+ (apply #'+ (subseq 0 5)) (apply #'+ (subseq 12 30))) 11:42:18 who needs loop for that? :P 11:43:01 Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:04 <|3b|> or (loop for i from 0 for n in numbers unless (< 5 i 13) sum n) 11:44:06 nikodemus: What subseq are you talking about? 11:44:25 feh 11:44:39 (subseq list ...) obviously 11:45:22 I ain't no captain. 11:45:24 <|3b|> summing the whole thing with reduce and subtracting the sum of subseq 5..13 was my next guess 11:45:28 sum(numbers[c(1:6,14:30)]) 11:46:20 sometimes, compressed syntax is handy 11:48:28 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:49:45 (defun slices (seq start end &rest more) (concatenate (type-of seq) (subseq seq start end) (when more (apply #'slices seq more)))) 11:50:05 (reduce #'+ (slices seq 0 5 13 30)) 11:51:00 (+ (reduce #'+ sequence :end 5) (reduce #'+ sequence :start 13)) ? 11:51:38 Kryztof: sum(numbers[c(-7:-13)]) 11:51:50 or -13:-7, don't remember right now 11:52:04 Kryztof: apropos, which reminds me: (type-of "foo") => (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (3)) makes that sort of thing a lot less convenient 11:52:07 ah, only if the sequence isn't longer, right. sorry 11:52:57 is there a reason not to have type-of just say (simple-array character (*))? 11:55:46 nikodemus: why not just ARRAY then? 11:56:52 most specific type which has a class associated with it 11:57:02 would be my preference 11:57:30 class-of? 11:57:47 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 11:57:49 hey, duh! right 11:58:36 that works nicely. now the functions that accept sequence type designators just need to be optimized to deal with class arguments nicely... 11:59:05 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:59:22 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 12:03:01 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:06:12 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:48 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:07:24 all are good, Kryztof I'm not doing R 12:07:35 -!- echo-are` [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:07:57 ok let's take use you guys a little more then since that was too simple a question for you :) 12:08:03 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:08:20 http://francoatgrex.tripod.com I'm trying to translate that algorithm into lisp 12:09:18 davlaps [~davlaps@pool-108-49-122-166.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:34 It's not well written, both my lisp code but also the paper's pseudocode is ambiguous 12:10:01 -!- davlaps [~davlaps@pool-108-49-122-166.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:10:08 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 12:10:58 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 12:12:28 by the way, in R it's sum(c(1:6,14:30)) 12:12:56 but I'll go with |3b| 's unless in a loop 12:23:18 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@ppp141255064144.dsl.hol.gr] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:27:01 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442426.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:27:29 Harag [~phil@dsl-243-251-219.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:27:44 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-243-251-219.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 12:28:53 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:31:04 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:36 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.105.211] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:33:10 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:37:01 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-165-196.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:43:24 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:43:32 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:55:22 Karl_dscc [~localhost@ni009.e-technik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has joined #lisp 12:56:45 hi, I am looking for someone who can help me with websockets in lisp 13:02:48 S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has joined #lisp 13:04:17 entrix [~entrix@95-27-91-232.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 13:04:41 -!- entrix [~entrix@95-27-91-232.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 13:04:49 setmeaway [stemearay@118.45.149.126] has joined #lisp 13:06:40 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:06:51 Karl_dscc: we like real questions 13:08:05 H4ns: like how to set up an websocket server using clws? 13:08:31 Karl_dscc: yes, that is a real question. i can't answer it, though. 13:08:37 ^^ 13:08:46 <|3b|> doesn't it have some simple examples? 13:09:02 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has left #lisp 13:09:15 i tried the example but it does not work 13:10:19 Karl_dscc: maybe instead of starting off very general, you want to ask like "i tried clws, but the example failed like this: " 13:10:41 Karl_dscc: use paste.lisp.org for lisp pastes. 13:10:59 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:11:13 *|3b|* notes that the example doesn't actually start the server, the code to do so is commented out 13:11:38 ha I found H4ns on g+ via who +1'd the Xach post on how he will not post anything useful on g+, thus proving xach wrong 13:12:08 maxm: for his definition of useful, what you just wrote does not prove him wrong :) 13:12:45 H4ns: well his problem with g+ is being scared by going to their dashboard, and seeing how much data they collect and his web history 13:12:45 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:09 yet at least g+ is subject to whatever US laws etc.. LJ is owned by russian guys, who knows what they do with the data 13:14:14 g+ should add posting of 
 blocks to their markup, or buy github or something
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13:17:46  as surprising as it may be, "subject to us laws" is zero consolation for me. i'd much rather fight lj in a russian court than google in an american one
13:18:34  and your main interaction with lj is things that you want to be public
13:19:26  i tried clws, but the example failed like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129132
13:19:28  IMHO either google, facebook, yahoo will buy lj, too big of an asset
13:20:19  i don't know what "lj" is supposed to mean.  is it lisp related?
13:21:13  livejournal. Some lispers maintain their blogs on LJ.
13:21:26  ah, ok.
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13:26:13  Karl_dscc: there no resource-received-binary method in the clws from quicklisp
13:26:50  Karl_dscc: perhaps you are reading tutorial / intro that meant to be used with the git/latest version? happens often with libraries that are under active development
13:29:03 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp
13:29:10 <|3b|> Karl_dscc: are you loading the example code in a separate package?
13:29:31 nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-233.math.tu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp
13:30:08  maxm: hmm ok... strange I thought quicklisp gives the newes versions...I will try the git version, thx
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13:31:00 *|3b|* would have expected ql to have a new enough version for that
13:31:19 <|3b|> nothing but bug fix since feb
13:31:51  Xach: another use case for (ql:quickload :latest) or similar thing
13:32:22 *|3b|* suspects it is just missing exports in WS package, try adding ws:: to the undefined things
13:33:17  maxm: how's that different from ql:update-all-dists?
13:34:08  sykopomp: I thought that simply updates to the latest QL distribution? or will it actually go and download from VC for each system you have installed? if so that its awesome
13:34:36  maxm: it does not do that.
13:34:59 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has joined #lisp
13:35:19  oh, you mean from source control.
13:35:27  maxm: quicklisp is organized in releases.  it interns all packages into one release and makes sure that the packages within one release compile.
13:35:34 sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has joined #lisp
13:35:40  doesn't the new clbuild do something like that?
13:36:04  wasn't clbuild always doing that?
13:37:08  yeah, but I thought the new clbuild integrated with quicklisp.
13:37:13  uh
13:37:16  so you could have some systems from dists and others from source control.
13:37:24  sykopomp: yes, Xach mentioned he started QL as a "better cl-build".. But imho having an option for user to force a system to be DL'ed locally will be cool.. QL has all the data, just make ~/quicklisp/source-tracked-projects and clone from version control in there
13:37:42  "just"
13:39:28  H4ns: you saying "just make a clone" its a big deal? Would not quicklisp backend already have the code nessesary to do it, I doubt Xach downloads every system manually
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13:40:05 <|3b|> maxm: ql client doesn't know how to though
13:40:06  maxm: he does, but the client just interacts with amazon and does not deal with any version control mechanisms.
13:40:22  maxm: that is a design feature, because that is what makes quicklisp portable.
13:41:23  H4ns: yes it obviously kind of "extended" feature, but will be very useful for tracking fast-moving projects
13:41:51  maxm: i would also like to see a feature that allows me to clone a quicklisp dist so that i can hack on it.
13:42:30  does not git support nested projects?
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13:42:59  maxm: it supports submodules, but how is that related to quicklisp?
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13:43:24 <|3b|> Karl_dscc: actually, looks like most of those those symbols are exported, not sure what's going on there, unless you do have an old version, or trying to run things in the debugger somehow confuses things
13:43:24  H4ns: i was thinking of when it does download and verify  all systems
13:44:01  maxm: "it" being?
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13:45:08  "it" being quicklisp backend when Xach prepares a new distribution such as ql-release-x.y, I imagine that all the sources for all systems will be in a single directory. Could not that directory made into git repo?
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13:46:01  maxm: i don't know.
13:46:31 *maxm* has to read up on git submodules, maybe I imagining them incorrectly.. I thought they would allow you to track the "external" git projects as modules of your own project
13:47:13  it does that, but i personally don't want to track an "external" git project, but my own fork
13:47:25  you mark the revid and canonical location of the external project you mean.  But it only works with git.
13:47:26  and everyone seems to want something slightly different.
13:48:26  maxm: last i checked not all projects have moved to git
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13:52:00  anyway, in the spirit of "do it yourself", I would simply be happy if QL exposed system's source / pull URL on the client through api
13:53:33  right now above process for me can be automated manually like this: 1. google project name 2. browse around to make sure I found the right thing 3. git|hg|svn clone into ~/quicklisp/local-projects
13:54:07  my first step is to look at https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects
13:54:28  ah thanks
13:55:32  this is pretty cool, I can do what I want by cloning this
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13:56:44  it is not an api, though.  please do not complain if xach changes the layout of that repository.
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13:58:40  Anyone remember Macroexpand-dammit ?  Was that considered the right approach for a macroexpand-all?  Was there any gotcha to it I should be aware of?
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14:02:11  Modius: I remember looking at it for around 20 minutes, and not being able to figure out which problem it was trying to solve
14:02:35  then I felt stupid for a time, and forgot about it
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14:05:00  A crime against humanity was commited by machines: they made one of us feel stupid!
14:07:36  Which CL would you suggest running on an itanic machine? Linux OS, quicklisp/ffi usability welcome.
14:07:56 -!- ASau` [~user@95-25-227-191.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
14:08:15  antoszka: telnet://voyager.informatimago.com:8102
14:08:19 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp
14:08:44  Connection refused.
14:08:49  Oops
14:09:17  antoszka: it's telnet://voyager.informatimago.com:8101  sorry
14:09:36  Let's see.
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14:12:37  pjb: nice
14:12:44  pjb: wtf :-)
14:12:55  pjb: it suggested XCL for a lInux implementation
14:13:01  pjb: Looks good, but unfortunately doesn't precisely answer my architecture-related question. Is there one, that has a native ia64 backend?
14:13:25  There are some marked specifically with x86_64 backends.
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14:13:53  pjb: ia64 != x86_64.
14:13:56  Yes.
14:14:14  I need help collecting more features for each implementation.
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14:14:39  let's see if I can get a manual compilation of sbcl there.
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14:15:08  antoszka: if you have a gcc targetting specifically ia64, you can use ecl or clisp.
14:15:24  Yeah, I'll try ecl.
14:16:06  I don't know of any lisp targeting ia64, Intel did a good job of making writing compilers for that architecture sound frightening
14:16:13  :)
14:16:25  abcl might be a possibility as well, if you want to go the jvm route
14:16:57  Right. But that's not a very fast machine, so adding the jvm overhead wouldn't be welcome.
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14:22:47  antoszka: it is not entirely unlikely that a jvm-hosted lisp is faster than a natively compiling backend of the low quality that you can expect for itanium, if you can even find one.
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14:23:44  H4ns: clisp says it supports ia64, but I've not used clisp  does it have a native compiler backend, or does it just emit some gcc-compatible stuff?
14:23:55  antoszka: clisp uses its own vm
14:23:58  antoszka: it has a jitc.
14:24:00  I might try abcl then, too.
14:24:02  OK.
14:24:05  But it may not work specifically for ia64.
14:24:21 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-158-231.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp
14:24:41  also check ecl - it piggybacks on gcc, so might be best (haven't checked whether it supports itanium tho)
14:24:54  I'll have a look at the three, thx.
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14:28:12  gcl also piggybacks on gcc
14:28:30  why do you need it to be ia64 specific?
14:28:41  doesn't ia64 run x86_64?
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14:29:28  ia64 is not x86_64
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14:30:02  i know they aren't the same, but doesn't ia64 /run/ x86_64?
14:30:14  as in: doesn't it understand the same instruction set
14:30:17 jlongster [~user@pool-108-4-74-122.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
14:30:21  and then some
14:30:34 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-158-231.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp
14:30:38  Didn't ia64 come out before x86_64?
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14:32:11  madnificent: ia64 is completely different from x86
14:32:30  x86 != x86_64
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14:33:03  are your ready to understand that x86_64 and ia64 are very different and not at all compatible?
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14:33:32  yes, that's an understandable answer :)
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14:33:35  thanks
14:33:55  ok. :)  it is safe to say that ia64 is basically dead as a mainstream platform.
14:34:08  was it ever a _mainstream_ platform?
14:34:35  stassats`: it was intended to become one until intel realized that it would be better for them to keep x86 compatibility forever
14:34:36  in which processor line was ia64 used then?  itanium?
14:34:46  itanium
14:35:01  H4ns: so, it's stillborn
14:35:04  they call it itanic for a reason.
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14:35:44  lol
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14:51:34  mop: if i want to implement my own specializer, do i have to specify a new type of generic function and generic method as well?
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14:53:24  yes
14:53:38  ty
14:53:43  implementing your own specializer is a bit tricky; there's not really enough support in the mop as specified
14:54:05  how so?
14:54:22  one of my long-standing todo items is to improve sbcl in this respect; it's possible, but not easy, in sbcl
14:54:40  madnificent: mostly that you have to rewrite a /lot/ of standard functionality
14:54:51  the whole of the discriminating function stuff needs rewriting, for example
14:55:48  ouch, i wasn't expecting to do that :(
14:56:04  paper at ; look also for mop-27.impure.lisp and mop-28.impure.lisp in sbcl's test suite
14:56:23 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs78186070.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
14:56:44  Kryztof: i'm surprised, why can't i just override compute-applicable-methods-using-classes?
14:56:57  because that is called with the result of (class-of )
14:56:58 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit []
14:57:15  ah, but that's still ok for me
14:57:21  if you have your own specializers, it's unlikely that the class of the arguments is all you need to be able to decide ...
14:57:23  i want to supply more than one class in my specializer
14:57:23  ... oh, lucky :)
14:57:24 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:57:33  oh, you want OR specializers?
14:57:40  no, AND
14:57:46  even easier!
14:57:52  as you were, then :)
14:57:55  do they already exist?
14:58:03  perhaps, i'm not into writing bugs
14:58:57  OR specializers almost exist; that's in the test suite: mop-28.impure.lisp.  But I didn't quite finish the compute-applicable-methods work; I computed the methods, but didn't sort them
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14:59:18  AND specializers should be a fairly easy adaptation
14:59:38  but what should i override so the mop knows it has to use my specializer?  by default it doesn't know where to search for or how to initialize my specializer
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15:00:03  seriously, read the paper and the test cases
15:00:12  ah, it's in the paper as well
15:00:13  thanks :)
15:00:15  this is why I write things :-)
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15:01:26  much text or something i assumed to be trivial.  will enjoy reading it though
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15:04:39  sometimes it also needs to be much text to look properly academic
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15:05:04  are there any plans to use llvm with sbcl?
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15:05:26  Kryztof: i was hoping to get this over with quickly.  even though i'm still at the start of the paper, the writing style is fluid, that's good.
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15:13:34  Okay, basic question time. How can I find out what ASDF systems I have loaded into a running image?
15:14:13  (apropos "SYSTEMS" "ASDF")
15:14:50  so (maphash (lambda (k v) (print k)) asdf::*defined-systems*) ; seems to be it.
15:14:54  Thanks.
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15:15:28  (asdf:map-systems #'print)
15:15:55  (swank:list-all-systems-known-to-asdf)
15:16:13  ... damn. I do have sb-posix loaded. Guess I need to break out sb-alien after all.
15:16:58  it just shows systems for which .asd was loaded, not load-system'd
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15:18:20  Yeah, but every single one of these was brought in either by my base image builder or by quicklisp, so I'm reasonably confident that they were load-system'd.
15:18:35  Or they're test systems, which are safely ignorable.
15:19:24 alvis [~user@tx-184-6-180-2.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp
15:19:51  so, has any found a suggestion on how to lispify this pseudocode? http://francoatgrex.tripod.com
15:20:12  francogrex: how much do you pay?
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15:20:51 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria]
15:21:02  1 cent
15:21:16  it's for the good of spreading knowledge
15:21:25 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:21:54  and you pay just one cent for helping to spread knowledge?
15:22:10  but I can go up to 10 $
15:22:10 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp
15:23:15  i don't think anyone will be interested in translating some anonymous pseud-code
15:23:15  ... I find that there's insufficient context for producing good lisp from that fragment.
15:23:41 BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp
15:25:02 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-108-200-140-20.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp
15:25:20  the full article is here, but it won't necessarily bring more light: http://n.molinari.free.fr/articles/biometrics1.pdf
15:26:04 -!- alvis [~user@tx-184-6-180-2.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:27:17  but I will paypal $10 it's easy money ;)
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15:30:33  So, first off, X becomes time-events, and the entire function becomes "determine-one-cluster" (time-events, growth-rates, minimal-event-number)...
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15:32:54  It looks like Y(i), Y-bar(i), and Y-hat(i) are determined primarily by R(i), X(i), and X(i-1), so those are fairly simple iteration variables.
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15:35:14  Might be even more straightforward with the use of a suitable statistics book as reference.
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15:38:17  to simplify R equals 1 always
15:38:45  but the (i) is disturbing, it's not in the K L N loop
15:40:11  Umm... what?
15:41:07  for k = 1 to N do for L = k + C to N do y(i) ???
15:41:37  that doesn't look like valid LOOP
15:41:41  Y(i), Y-bar(i), and Y-hat(i) are all functions.
15:42:30  For that matter, A(k,l) is also a function.
15:44:04  so it's y(L) the L would be the parameter
15:44:53  You then do your two nested for-loops over k and l, saving the k and l values that produced the lowest A(k,l) value.
15:45:29  Yeah. Standard mathematical function stuff.
15:46:09  ok... well then here's 10 $. send me your email address please
15:46:17  ... and my patience has been exceeded, and I need to get back to work. Good luck. (-:
15:46:39  not kidding, msg
15:46:50  Consider it a freebie.
15:47:11  no, I've never contributed to the lisp community, that's the least
15:47:13  Takes my mind off of dealing with this bloody app server for a few minutes.
15:47:57  10$ isn't really a meaningful sum
15:48:27  it's symbolic
15:48:27  It's not that it's not meaningful, it's that the tax paperwork will cost more than $10.
15:48:32  nope, 10+9E$ is tho
15:48:36  as a gift
15:48:38  lol
15:48:50  francogrex: you still have to pay taxes on gifts.
15:49:08  If the gift makes you pass a threshold, you may have to pay much more taxes.
15:49:10  errr... really? I ... don't
15:49:17 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp
15:49:27  Taxes are awful in most countries.
15:50:05  what you don't have your own "helping children with lisp" non-profit yet?
15:50:27 bpg [~bogdan@unassigned-178.80.183.216.net.blink.ca] has joined #lisp
15:50:49  it's rubbish, charity contributions /gifts should be tax free
15:51:43  francogrex: tell that to your representant.
15:52:04  http://www.linternaute.com/argent/impots/conseils/07/0711-don-manuel.shtml
15:52:18  is bribing an elected official tax deductible?
15:52:50  "Des mariages homos à Lannion" !
15:53:25 *maxm* is intrigued by the red clothed figure
15:53:28  but who will know, it's just some nutter sent me something to my paypal account
15:53:41  it's in #Lisp logs!
15:53:58  one of the lurkers is surely from IRS
15:54:11  the traditional way of doing minipayments like that might be to buy something from a wishlist
15:54:11  IRS lurkers here lol
15:54:38  francogrex: of course! You can't imagine the resources they're investing about it. cispa.
15:54:39  ok, that passes then, the wishlist.
15:54:39  alternatively, just remember that you owe someone a favour when you're in a position to give it
15:55:53  what nickdemos did with the SBCL, how did he do it taxfree?
15:56:00  the contributions
15:56:13  he did not
15:56:27  he paid taxes on it, I forget whether it was as business or personal income
15:56:51  puff! this sucks, gov ripping people off
15:57:04 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.176] has joined #lisp
15:57:36  yeah, not like you use anything which is paid off by taxes
15:58:38  We can give software gratis, but agricultors and landlords don't give their vegetable and apartment gratis.  So we should make non-programmers customer dear for our software.  The sources can be gratis, but the binaries must be sold expensive.
15:58:47  my street is like a strainer of potholes
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15:59:21  they expect me to pay taxes for that... anyway it's a shame I'm digressing a lot
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16:00:21 alvis [~user@tx-184-6-180-2.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp
16:00:35  pjb:  not bad idea
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16:10:10  is there a simple way to convert a integer (form 0 to 255) to a 8-bit bit-array  ?
16:10:41  no
16:10:50  Yes, but it's not portable.
16:11:00  Why do you want a bit-array, anyway?
16:12:51  (loop for i from 1 to 8 collect (if (> (logand 13 (ash 1 i)) 0) 1 0))
16:13:08  but this is not good
16:13:42  a bit-vector won't give you anything an integer doesn't
16:13:43  nyef: I want to convert a 14x7bit bit-array to a 16x8 bit
16:14:08  Stupid bitmap font games?
16:14:19  Why do you have a bit-array in the first place?
16:14:49 -!- entrix [~entrix@95-27-91-232.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
16:15:01  renard_: what's this 13?
16:15:12  pjb: a test number
16:15:20  That... doesn't look like a bit-array?
16:15:32  (make-array 8 :element-type 'bit :initial-contents (loop for i from 1 to 8 collect (if (> (logand 13 (ash 1 i)) 0) 1 0)))
16:15:35  this ds
16:15:45 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp
16:16:01  renard_: if you have a list of numbers in {0,1}, you can coerce it to '(vector bit)
16:16:19  I got a 14*7bit array, I need to add a bit every 7 bits
16:16:19  (let ((n (random 256))) (coerce (loop for i below 8 collect (if (logbitp i n) 1 0)) 'bit-vector)) => #*11001001
16:16:30  Okay, yes, it does. But still doesn't explain why you are working with bit-arrays in the first place.
16:16:47  Bit-arrays are almost always the wrong tool to use for anything.
16:16:55  why ?
16:17:11  Too much overhead compared to other solutions.
16:17:19 phrixos [~foo@adsl-77-86-94-94.karoo.kcom.com] has joined #lisp
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16:18:10  I got solution such as in http://paste.lisp.org/display/129135 to add that 8th bit
16:18:31  but I was looking for better solution
16:18:33  well, bit-arrays come with the obvious bit-wise textual representation
16:18:41  which can be a real win, developing at the REPL
16:19:55  renard_: your function is too big, split it
16:19:56  Can a hunchentoot acceptor have its own dispatch table, or do all acceptors share a common dispatch table?
16:20:11  And, for that matter, how stable / reliable is using an ssl-acceptor?
16:20:18  stassats`: yes that
16:20:32  s why I asked if there is a beeter way to do it
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16:22:03  renard_: It would be time you start learning programming, don't you think? http://paste.lisp.org/+2RN6
16:22:39 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
16:22:44  pjb: thanks
16:22:48  I just started lisp
16:22:54  bit-arrays also have nice bitwise operations.
16:23:07  renard_: that's not a question of language, but a question of programming.
16:23:15  renard_: use the CLHS to find the operators.
16:24:07 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
16:24:16  http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/BitSearch.html
16:24:31  http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/Bitvectors.html
16:24:32  etc.
16:24:50  ok thanks
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16:26:55 -!- achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
16:27:13  So I've just bumped into the problem described here while testing on Ubuntu: http://groups.google.com/group/quicklisp/browse_thread/thread/46bd689eb7392a29
16:27:41 achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp
16:27:43  Is anyone aware of a way of tackling this without asking users to and symlink things?
16:27:54  s/to and/to
16:30:16 -!- behelit [~behelit@c213-89-59-224.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp
16:30:17  SB-WALKER::VARIABLE-GLOBALLY-SPECIAL-P  ? does something like that exist?
16:30:32 strange_ [~behelit@c213-89-59-224.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp
16:31:46 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp
16:31:48  or is it just a limitation of sb-alien?
16:32:35  phrixos: that's a full-grown ubuntu bug, I'd say
16:33:08  I'd have thought it a cl-ncurses bug, myself.
16:33:13  it's certainly a PITA that they use that linker script rather than a simply symlink
16:34:15  nyef: is that a legal .so?
16:34:51  francogrex: I don't know about in sb-walker or in sb-cltl2 or whatever, but it's information that should be available by digging in the globaldb if necessary.
16:35:31 ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-88-32.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp
16:35:40  prxq: It's probably a legal linker script, rather than a .so.
16:36:30  right, so the bug is that the file is called libncurses.so and is a linker script rather than an .so :-)
16:36:35  No, that's not a bug
16:36:41  .so files can be linker scripts, that's allowed
16:36:49 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-40.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp
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16:36:53  Nobody should ever dlopen a .so file
16:37:13  You have no clue what you'd get. Always use the .so.VERSION file at runtime.
16:37:33  fantastic
16:37:55  See http://lispcaveats.tumblr.com/post/13259176455/ffi-linking-against-shared-libraries
16:38:04  So, not an ubuntu bug. Either an sb-alien bug or a cl-ncurses bug. And not quite an sb-alien bug, either, really.
16:38:12 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:38:21  ok, it's an old project called save-object.lisp contains all these nonexisting sbcl symbols
16:38:34  actually, you may use .so while developping, but the executable must use .so.$VERSION
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16:39:28  Yea. Note that your deployment target may not even have the .so file, because that's only needed for compilation.
16:39:47  At runtime, only the .so.1 (or whatever integer) file is used.
16:40:02  hmm
16:40:06  interesting blog post
16:40:16  man I upgraded to latest slime, and this bug is there for years
16:40:23  ... Hey, can you use a pathname of .so.LATEST and have it work mostly automatically?
16:40:36  if you compile the file, that produces xref for compiler notes, you can't go to source from notes
16:40:43  so cl-ncurses should be going directly for 'libncurses.so.5'?
16:40:52  Now, when you install eg. iolib with quicklisp the libraries ends in ~/quicklisp/something and they're hard coded, so when you distribute the executable saved image, they can't find the libraries
16:40:54 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp
16:40:58  this fixes it for me http://i.imgur.com/ftUIO.png
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16:41:11  phrixos: from lisp the question is more complicated.
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16:41:26  phrixos: if the FFI targets a specific version of the library, then yes.
16:41:35  phrixos: yes, you should go directly for a version known to be compatible with the ABI you wrapped.
16:41:44  phrixos: but you could write a lisp program that adapts to new versions of libraries, perhaps?
16:42:11  eg. a program that would read the manual and target a new ABI if available.
16:42:13  phrixos: if you did manual wrapping, select it for the version you used. If you used a script to automatically wrap, the script should emit what library version it used as well.
16:42:36  bearing in mind i didn't _write_ any of this; I'm just trying to use cl-ncurses...
16:42:52 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-108-200-140-20.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp
16:43:38  some libraries don't have a consistent soversion which is annoying.
16:46:09 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:46:15  hmm, that's odd
16:46:24  just having a look in the cl-ncurses source and found this:
16:46:29  (defvar *ncurses-search-paths*
16:46:30    #-win32'("/usr/local/lib64/" "/usr/local/lib/" "/lib64/" "/lib/" "/usr/lib64/" "/usr/lib/")
16:46:31    #+win32'("/users/jacob/src/pdc31dll/"))
16:46:36  haha
16:46:40  that's a good one. :P
16:46:53  sorry, meant the include the related comment:
16:46:54  ;; On some versions of Linux, /usr/lib is a linker script to /lib
16:46:55  ;; (which SBCL barfs on), so we list /lib before /usr/lib.
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16:47:17  yea, that's not useful.
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16:49:38  foom: the problem is that you can never know what .so.VERSION to open
16:49:56 teggi_ [~teggi@123.21.170.30] has joined #lisp
16:50:10  is it libssl.so.0.9.7b or libssl.so.0.9.8e ? or libssl.so.1.0.0, perhaps ?
16:50:25  those are the wrong ones to use too
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16:50:49  fe[nl]ix: that's why e.g. dropbox ships with its own version of libssl
16:50:56  lacedaemon: one or two numbers.
16:51:08  The debug number shouldn't matter.
16:51:10  foom: but my Debian system has no other symlink
16:51:23  oh hey, you're right, libssl is screwy. :)
16:51:25  So depending what API you target, libssl.so.0.9 or libssl.so.1.0
16:51:31  Well, there's no way around it. If you've manually wrapped the ABI, you have to list the ones your wrapping is compatible with.
16:51:35 *jasom* has 0.9.8 and 1.0.0 for libssl
16:52:00 two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
16:52:02  The proper thing to do is have a program that auto-generates a FFI wrapper for whatever version you're gonna require.
16:52:11 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp
16:52:24  foom: or just ship the dll, which is what most programs do
16:53:03  foom: that alone means some 40+ versions for openssl on linux alone
16:53:06  which is why "locate libssl.so.0.9.8" on my system
16:53:16  er finds 5 copies
16:53:17  and who knows what the BSDs do
16:54:31  that's easy, just write a portable SSL in CL
16:54:41  the other option is to package it up for each version of each linux distribution you want to support.
16:54:57  (or become popular enough that other people do that for you)
16:54:59  fe[nl]ix: really? how did you get a count of soversions of libssl?
16:55:13  The problem with shipping the dll, of course, is applying security updates.
16:55:29  (of which openssl has had two in the last week or so)
16:55:45  indeed, dropbox is using an ancient libssl
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16:57:52  foom: 0.9.6, 0.9.7, 0.9.8, 0.9.9, 1.0.0 are around(counting oldish systems like debian stable or rhel4), multiplied by a to g of minor releases(included in the SONAME), plus the distros that omit the revision
16:58:53  some distros include the letter in the soname?
16:59:15  RH and its clones does
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17:00:14  fe[nl]ix: well you can probe for the minor releases since they don't break ABI, right?
17:00:37  "probing" is not something easily done with ASDF
17:00:46 -!- two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:01:04  ASDF has no built-in way to do a ./configure-like system probing
17:01:05  RHEL uses sane names like libssl.so.[456]
17:01:32  unfortunate that it's not standard across distros for the same version of the software, of course...
17:01:53  they need QuickC too
17:02:04  I can swear I've seen libssl.so.0.9.8e somewhere, though
17:02:13  can't remember where :(
17:02:21  yes, libssl.so.4 is a symlink to libssl.so.0.9.8e on rhel
17:02:34  but you'd load the .so.4, not the .so.0.9.8e.
17:02:44  well, Debian doesn't have that
17:02:47  indeed.
17:03:07  usually that sort of discrepancy happens when upstream doesn't care for their ABI properly.
17:03:08  i recently had to send a patch to cl+ssl so that it can load libssl.so.1.0.0 on debian
17:03:39  with a sane upstream, the sonames are provided by upstream.
17:03:54  nobody outside the RH family tree calls it libssl.so.4
17:03:59  anyway, I have a solution to that, just need to finish the code
17:04:08  that blog post by anton vodonosov got me started
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17:05:44  essentially, a macro that calls pkg-config or -config to get the ldflags, and builds an empty .so that only links to the library
17:06:08  so that you always load the same library even if the system gets updated
17:06:21  it even works on OSX :)
17:06:35  couldn't you just use the info provided by pkg-config to load the appropriate .so?
17:08:15  no
17:08:22  pkg-config doesn't give that info
17:08:45 -!- silenius [~silenius@i59F7529F.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:09:00  and it wouldn't be able to compile it without libssl-dev installed
17:09:25 entrix_ [~entrix@95-27-91-232.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp
17:09:51  that's right, but you're in no worse position than if you were building a C program
17:10:09  fe[nl]ix: you also need to extract the symbol versions, to be actually safe.
17:10:12  but i don't have it installed right now and cl+ssl works fine
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17:12:02  foom: what do you need ?
17:12:19  sorry, what do you mean ?
17:12:20  :)
17:12:45  symbol versions are a way of changing the ABI without creating a new soversion.
17:13:03  So, you might have libfoo.so.1, and it can have a function "foo()", which changes its ABI.
17:13:36  They can include foo@NEWVER and foo@OLDVER in the same lib.
17:13:55  when you link a C program, it chooses the symbol version at build time, and so it's going to keep the same behavior
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17:14:20  if you rebuild using the new header files and library, you'll link to the new version.
17:15:47  as an example, look at libc.so.6, it has two copies of regexec, one versioned GLIBC_2.2.5 and one versioned GLIBC_2.3.4
17:16:06  do you have a reference for that ? what you say is not what I understood about the way glibc symbol versioning works
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17:18:43  this looks like a reasonable explanation. http://people.freebsd.org/~deischen/symver/freebsd_versioning.txt
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17:21:46  especially the bit about "Now suppose an incompatible interface change is made to libvector:"
17:24:47  thanks
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17:28:35  foom: that said, in practice, what libraries other than libc do that ?
17:29:11  not even ICU, they just #define icu_foo #icu_foo_42 all over the place
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17:33:29  fe[nl]ix: probably not many, because doing it requires a confluence of unlikely factors: 1) Upstream gives a crap about ABI stability 2) They don't take the easy way out and abandon the previous version and increment the soversion. 3) They are okay with restricting the portability of the compatibility mechanism to ELF platforms.
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17:35:35  ok, so I can declare victory by restricting the domain
17:35:49  like a true mathematician :)
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17:36:58  foom: can you think of a way to bind to the symbol version as well, without putting a wrapper into the dummy library ?
17:37:04  for each function
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17:38:05  fe[nl]ix: sure, call dlvsym instead of dlsym.
17:38:13  then it takes a version.
17:38:39  at build time, extract a list of versions, and have the FFI call dlvsym with those versions.
17:38:43  that's only for loading, but what about introspecting ?
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17:39:06  what do you mean?
17:39:30  how to retrieve the versions from the lib?
17:39:32  how do I extract a list of versions ? objdump ?
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17:40:14  sure, objdump, readelf, or another program linked with libelf.
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17:41:42  hmm, but I'd be bypassing SBCL's linkage tables, which means that core restarts aren't guaranteed to work
17:42:01  well, obviously you have to add the feature to sbcl. :)
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17:44:32  with libc there's no problem because the linker sets as minimum required version the maximum of all bound symbols
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17:46:37  but you're talking about making an .so that links to libc but doesn't actually use any symbols from it.
17:46:44  (or libwhatever)
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17:47:06  yes
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17:48:03  with lates OSX it works invoking the compiler normally, on linux I must add --no-as-needed just to be sure
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17:49:20  right, so you bypassing the minimum version check, there. And in any case, future versions adding a new version of the symbol you use might break you.
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17:52:51  that's right, but since so few libraries use versioning it's not much of a problem
17:53:23  especially since I only need it to add support for openssl and libarchive to iolib
17:53:33  Unless one of those few libraries is of critical importance, such as libc?
17:54:03  in practice, it seems to work with libc
17:54:11  Fair enough.
17:54:24  libc changes ABI so infrequently anyhow, even including new symbol versions.
17:55:08  I've never had any problem with it, although that might be because I always use a very recent system and recompile iolib often
17:56:18  fe[nl]ix: well, what about iolib compiling libraries into ~/quicklisp directory, so that when you launch the executable image from another account you lose?
17:56:49  the current HEAD doesn't do that any more
17:56:55  there's an "installation" problem between quicklisp, iolib (or other system compiling libraries) and cffi.
17:57:08  fe[nl]ix: Since after the beginning of the month?
17:57:19  in what sense ?
17:57:52  I made that change last year
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17:58:15  but I don't know if I can make a new release in time for the next quicklisp dist
17:58:19  Well, as I'm saying, you ql:quickload an app using iolib, save an image, and run it under another account. It tries to go to the original user's ~/quicklisp directory for some lib*.so
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17:58:52  try to use the current HEAD, not the one in QL
17:59:09  I've taken to not saving images based on quicklisp.
17:59:23  fe[nl]ix: ok.
17:59:40  if you have any problems, let me know
17:59:49  fe[nl]ix: but the question is whether one can install and use the lib*.so in a /usr/local/lib or other common directory?
18:00:01  is it possible to create third party quicklisp repos?
18:00:11  prxq: yes.
18:00:16  Why are you hardcoding a search path instead of checking LD_LIBRARY_PATH ?
18:00:17  prxq: but I don't know how.
18:00:30  Or otherwise polling ldconfig?
18:00:30  pjb: yes, you can
18:00:39  nyef: private libraries don't generally get installed in system directories.
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18:00:57  fe[nl]ix: ok. manually or is there a make install or some asdf install invocation?
18:01:04  Sure, for that case, but for system libraries?
18:01:16  nyef: but this is a private library compiled by iolib...
18:01:29  foom: on linux that's that's the current recommended use of /usr/local/lib
18:01:51  fe[nl]ix: I've never heard anyone else say that.
18:01:52  pjb: ah ok. Found the faq item now :-)
18:02:10  fe[nl]ix: /usr/local/lib is for locally installed systemwide libraries, not for private libs internal to an app.
18:02:55  pjb: I'm not sure what the iolib in QL does, it's quite old
18:03:02  ok
18:03:36  foom: that's not a big distinction, as long as the name is "unique"
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18:06:18  but I see your point, that's why I started libfixposix and eliminated the wrappers
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18:11:18  nyef: I modified cffi to keep the "type" of library, either :system or :wrapper
18:11:51  so on deploy one can list© the latter and bundle them with the core
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19:07:53  Hrm. (progn (with-open-file (foo "foo.lisp" :direction :output)) (ensure-directories-exist "foo/") (compile-file "foo")) => an error about reading from a directory. Is this the correct behavior?
19:08:59  (SBCL 1.0.50.1-9d2548c, fwiw.)
19:10:26  IMO it's a bug
19:10:36  i don't think it's correct, but i've seen it before
19:11:04  ensure-directories-exist should complain that foo exists but it's not a directory
19:11:26  Why? Neither "foo" nor "foo/" exist at that point.
19:11:40  fe[nl]ix: the error is from c-f
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19:11:57  But at compile-file, I request "foo", rather than "foo/", so the file opened should be "foo.lisp", not "foo/" (which isn't a file in the first place).
19:12:10  oops, I misread
19:12:12  that should be an easy fix
19:12:25 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
19:12:36  how does it know you want foo.lisp and not foo/ when all you specify is "foo"
19:12:54  howeyc: Because if I wanted the directory, I'd have specified the trailing slash.
19:13:07  because CL pathnames are crazy and don't work like you'd ever expect.
19:13:12  :D
19:13:23  howeyc: You'll see the same behavior from ensure-directories-exist: If you forget your trailing slash, the last component is taken as a filename, not a directory name.
19:13:30  last time i checked, compile-file doesn't work on directories
19:13:56  Even if it DID, I should have to specify the trailing slash to get the directory.
19:14:02  so, you'll always want foo.lisp, not foo/
19:14:29  what if you're nuts and name your files without extensions?
19:14:39  howeyc: you mean without types?
19:14:40  they're not directories
19:14:42  foom: if the underlying OS weren't a *nix, they wouldn't be so off-putting
19:15:06  foom: yes
19:15:53  fe[nl]ix: they still would be. The simplicity of the unix model is a virtue by itself.
19:16:54  I've often wanted to have something like CL pathnames in shell scripts instead of calling dirname and basename over and over
19:17:19  let me ask this, say I have "foo" and "foo.lisp" in my direcotry, what should (compile-file "foo") compile?
19:17:26 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp
19:17:31  Greetings lispers
19:17:33 ysph [~user@mobile-166-147-115-189.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp
19:17:41  howeyc: "foo"
19:17:55 -!- antoszka is now known as ]|[
19:17:59  stassats: Are you sure?
19:18:00  and if foo is a directory? it should know to skip it?
19:18:15 -!- ]|[ is now known as antoszka
19:18:27  nyef: yes
19:18:38  Hrm... Okay.
19:18:40  nyef: i'm sure that it's the right thing and what sane implementations do
19:19:19  I'm not
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19:20:47  Hang on, is (compile-file "foo") to compile "foo.lisp" even allowed by the standard?
19:21:27  Because I'm not seeing a .lisp extension in *d-p-d*.
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19:29:45  it says the way source and compiled files are distinguished is implementation dependent, so maybe type is how implementations do it
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19:30:34  No, no... My point is that I'm passing a pathname without a type component, and expecting it to match a pathname WITH a type component.
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19:31:03  you shouldn't expect anything unless your implementations assures you that you can
19:31:30  On LW, *d-p-d* is set to NIL.
19:31:35  it's not guaranteed but implementations can say "sure, we'll treat 'foo' to mean 'foo.lisp' if it's obvious if that's what you meant"
19:31:39  or even not, frankly
19:32:00  I would tend to say that if foo exists, even if it's something silly like a directory, that's what should be treated as the target for compile-file
19:32:07  Right, so I need to start by fixing my build system, although that whole "let's open a directory as a file" thing is still a bit disconcerting.
19:32:22  only SBCL stumbles on foo/
19:32:23  but here am I, stubbornly expecting tools that break predictably rather than advanced DWIM functionality
19:33:58  I'd advocate removing "foo"->"foo.lisp" magic myself, but I don't care enough to fight that when there are more important battles to be fought in the name of predictability
19:34:32 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-51-29.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
19:34:55  all implementations support and supported "foo"->"foo.lisp", you'll just anger a lot of people by removing it
19:35:22 LiamH [~healy@host-guestw-5-161.dhcp.stevens-tech.edu] has joined #lisp
19:36:35  quite
19:36:46  as I say, more important battles
19:36:54  that doesn't change the principle
19:38:04  (load "foo.lisp") is no problem, but (load "foo.ia64-linux-2.6fasl") is tiresome to type
19:38:54  i'm a little exaggerating, but .lx64fsl is real
19:39:11  and it's changes with implementations and platforms
19:39:37  (load (compile-file "foo.lisp"))
19:40:03  or compile-file-pathname, if you don't want to compile it
19:40:57  at the repl? i don't think so
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19:41:34  Bah. Just use DIRECTORY and take advantage of the mouse-sensitive presentations! d-:
19:41:49  well, in slime, you can complete files
19:42:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
19:42:34  in slime, you can do C-c C-k
19:42:54  and (load "foo.lisp/") works on SBCL
19:43:10  so, I'm interested, since you seem to feel strongly: do you actually do (load "foo") a lot from the repl?
19:43:19  Define "works"? Because I'd expect that to throw an error about some directory not existing.
19:43:21  It then drops an FASL next to the source file, which annoys me now that I'm accustomed to ASDF putting the FASL files in a cache directory.
19:43:29  Kryztof: not from slime
19:43:50  You can compile a buffer in LW without getting an FASL file, not sure how to do that in SLIME.
19:44:02  I do (load "foo") a lot from the REPL, but I wouldn't miss it much if it went away.
19:44:10  Kryztof: i do it because i'm able to do and it's less to type, i would be that much annoyed if i couldn't
19:44:21  (Oh, noes! I have to type five more characters! How horrible!)
19:44:47  nyef: well, with fasls it's a little more and everywhere different
19:45:04  Sure, but I don't really care about fasls.
19:45:21  Actually, I DON'T do (load "foo") that much, I do (load (compile-file "foo")).
19:45:29  ThomasH: I'd like to see a way for the slime fasls to end up in a cache (or simply not existant) too
19:45:43  sometimes i want separate compilation from loading, and maybe from different sessions
19:46:18  Ralith: what's a cache?
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19:46:50  stassats: a cache directory a la ASDF's behavior
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19:47:00  (setq slime-compile-file-options '(:fasl-directory "slime-fasls-directory"))
19:47:07  (it's static)
19:47:16  sounds good
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19:47:42  thanks
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19:53:53  stassats: Can't find that in the documnetation. Does it simply put the fasl file in :fasl-directory or does it create some logical hierarchal directory under that?
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19:56:17 *Ralith* doesn't particularly care what it does, so long as it isn't fragile
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19:57:23  Ralith: It's not so much a matter of care as understand.
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20:02:08  ThomasH: the former
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20:06:50  stassats: Thanks
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20:29:05  ... Can I specify a default for an optional parameter in DEFGENERIC, or do I need to do that per-method?
20:29:25  per-method
20:29:42  Okay, thanks.
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20:30:18  nyef: i sometimes use two methods for that.  one for handling the defaults and one with the actual implementation.  in some cases the former of the two is a function.
20:30:28  nyef: rather, in a higher-level function
20:31:13  Mmm. I might end up going that route.
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20:31:34  I'm still working on roughing in the subsystem I'm building, so that's still a bit up-in-the-air right now.
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21:15:26  is there a standard way to find if a object has inherited from a specific class?
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21:16:55  typep
21:17:13  in the case of multiple inheritance
21:18:23  same
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22:46:20  no canonicalize-specializers-using-class :(  that seems silly
22:47:07  If I want to handle a signal via a signalfd, is it sufficient to have the sigaction set to ignore, or do I actually have to block the signal?
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22:51:05  nyef: manpage says blocked via sigprocmask
22:52:04 -!- Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.116.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
22:52:07  The manpage I have says "normally" and "prevent the signals being handled according to their default dispositions".
22:52:30  I suppose an ignored signal is effectively handled, though. Hrm.
22:53:21  Oh. But sigmask and sigblock are defined in terms of integers. Wonderful!
22:53:33  No need to mess with #$@#^%@ sigset_t objects.
22:54:57 *madnificent* doesn't understand why amop doesn't let him integrate new types of specializers in the regular method definition.  what on earth do you gain by not making that extensible?
22:56:20  Ah. "Backwards compatibility". "Use sigprocmask." /-:
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22:57:51  Okay, going to have to think about this a bit more. At least I seem to have figured out how to force SBCL to not pay attention to the supposedly-deferrable signal, though.
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23:07:43  getting the following error on (ql:quickload :hunchentoot), any ideas?:  http://paste.lisp.org/display/129142
23:08:59  change your external format to something more sensible
23:09:09 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
23:09:15  sounds like you should set your locale to something utf-8'y
23:09:24  (before running sbcl)
23:09:38  I assumed it was utf-8'y
23:09:47  run (sb-ext:run-program "locale" :search t) ; or something to see what it actually is
23:09:49 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.]
23:10:04  depends on your env variables
23:10:16  if it's set to C, sbcl defaults to 7-bit ASCII
23:10:25  which is nice for catching errors (;
23:10:28  but not nice for you (:
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23:26:35  so the "we will start using umlauts in :author field of .asd files, if that does not force slime to make utf-8 default, nothing else will" concpiracy worked :-)
23:27:03  stassats`, antifuchs: thanks, got it working!
23:27:14  yay
23:30:15  maxm: slime doesn't really care about :author in .asd
23:31:11  but that's a good idea
23:31:52  adding to all file headers a ;;; Gratüitøus use of UTF-8
23:31:58  hah
23:32:11  better:
23:32:16  write all the documentation in smallcaps!
23:32:41  my documentation is written in so little caps, it's invisible
23:32:57  fe[nl]ix: you just cause me to notice my erc isn't in utf-8 either :/
23:33:27  my good deed of the day :)
23:33:45  can I assume that emacs itself is?
23:34:03  and go after erc, or is emacs the more likely culprit?
23:34:17  #emacs
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23:40:03  http://la.backpage.com/FemaleEscorts/super-hot-blonde-newbie-visiting-aneheim-now-818-288-5095-23/22286597
23:40:07  I love lisp!!
23:40:11  oh yeahehaehaeh!!!
23:40:26 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix
23:40:28 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
23:40:34 -!- p_l has set mode +b *!*g@*.lsanca.fios.verizon.net
23:40:34 -!- gavino [~pl@089-101-208053.ntlworld.ie] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (gavino)
23:40:41  darn
23:41:13  fe[nl]ix: sorry for kill stealing, IRC lacks in situational awareness ^_-
23:41:17  p_l: you stole my pleasure
23:41:22  :D
23:41:28 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o fe[nl]ix
23:41:40  :D
23:41:52 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o p_l
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23:45:51  shouldn't we let gavino make an error before we ban him?
23:46:28  pasting an ad for a hooker isn't an error?
23:46:31  he's to be banned on sight
23:48:00  madnificent: I can recognize an ad for an escort. Unprovoked and without any intro conversation
23:50:15  madnificent: the how-manieth error would that be?
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23:51:01  my 32-bit counter overflowed
23:51:16  oh no, he's -2 billion missteps in the clear
23:51:25  gavino would have to produce a library of such universal utility that the whole channel paroled him.
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23:52:10  evidence of actual social skills might actually be sufficient
23:52:28  gavino is a well-known troll
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23:54:25  Fade: somehow, i feel that the second coming of Christ is more likely to happen
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23:54:53  to whit.
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