00:05:19 and lispworks works not only on windows 00:05:54 -!- tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has quit [Changing host] 00:05:54 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 00:16:22 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:16:32 -!- brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:17:07 -!- tougas [~Adium@64.238.96.125] has left #lisp 00:24:13 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-013.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 00:27:09 -!- borodon [~Borodon@ip68-106-150-168.cl.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:28:47 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.151.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:29:10 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 00:31:53 *maxm* finally learned to do interactive rebase from egg 00:36:05 -!- ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:40:13 -!- ysph [~user@68-113-85-213.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:40:51 -!- ainm [~ainm@111.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc))] 00:41:12 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.181.9] has joined #lisp 00:47:06 Hi guys, I want to create an empty list and then later append a struct into it. But I can't figure out how to append anything to the variable. 00:47:30 clhs setf 00:47:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_setf.htm 00:48:15 Aha, got it 00:48:19 Thanks stassats 00:48:28 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-160-22-104.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:49:18 brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-013.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:49:37 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:52:45 ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:52:59 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-70-14-105.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:35 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 00:58:46 -!- Froward [~uh-oh@c-71-200-123-212.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: even in laughter, the heart of Snorlax is sorrowful. and the end of that mirth is heaviness.] 01:03:07 -!- ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:03:55 -!- dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-184-119.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:06:28 leo2007 [~leo@123.112.96.123] has joined #lisp 01:08:02 antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has joined #lisp 01:13:04 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:13:50 nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 01:18:45 cage [~cage@FLH1Aaq228.fko.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 01:20:28 statonjr [~hz8rdw@cpe-174-096-171-160.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:23:48 ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:25:17 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 01:26:10 -!- __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:26:33 is there some list somewhere of where lisp implementations get their MOP? Or what package, etc? 01:27:21 __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:23 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 01:32:55 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:33:13 -!- nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:36:27 -!- antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:42:50 osman [~Sam3t@88.233.165.121] has joined #lisp 01:42:53 sa 01:42:54 -!- osman [~Sam3t@88.233.165.121] has left #lisp 01:43:41 If not, can we make a page on cliki or something? 01:43:59 Quadrescence: I believe closer-mop has a readme listing the provenance of the supported mops 01:44:03 guacamole [~guacamole@cpe-66-68-137-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:44:03 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 01:45:16 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 01:47:08 nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 01:47:49 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:49:00 http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/repos/closer-mop/closer-mop-packages.lisp 01:50:03 -!- kanru`` [~user@61-228-145-105.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:51:36 -!- nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:56:05 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:56:39 -!- guacamole [~guacamole@cpe-66-68-137-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 01:57:13 francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176343411.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:00:43 nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 02:03:01 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:03:14 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:04:40 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.208.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:07:56 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-163-152.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:09:04 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0EF2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:09:18 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0065.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:09:46 -!- ASau [~user@128-72-117-212.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:10:07 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-250-163.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:10:32 ASau [~user@128-72-117-212.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 02:12:18 I'm adding an additional keyword argument to an existing function. The function is currently being called like "apply the-func some-args"; how can I get my keyword parameter to be passed through while still using apply? 02:12:19 -!- nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:12:46 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:13:15 simon_weber: (apply the-func :key arg some-args) 02:13:40 Bike: oh, perfect. I think I tried that but did it backwards 02:15:34 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:18:51 ikki [~ikki@189.247.208.25] has joined #lisp 02:21:57 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-163-152.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:22:35 Bike: I'm having trouble getting that to work. Here's a paste I'm expecting to give '(a b c d), but currently gives "illegal keyword/value pair in ..." 02:22:36 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129095 02:23:24 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-163-152.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:23:50 simon_weber: That's not how you specify &key params, it should be (lambda (a b c &key d) ...) 02:24:13 simon_weber: And then, you still need to get the argument order right. 02:25:02 simon_weber: it's not like python; the keyword actually exists as an argument 02:25:28 S11001001: oh, I see. you called it: I'm a python guy. Bike: got it, thanks. 02:26:05 simon_weber: get used to this; py3k is also unforgiving about that 02:26:37 S11001001: right again; haven't worked with 3k much. thanks for the tip 02:27:58 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:30:01 complete beginners question, if I run `ecl -load server.lisp` will it run compiled or interpreted ? 02:31:08 didi [~user@177.64.28.98] has joined #lisp 02:32:06 -!- statonjr [~hz8rdw@cpe-174-096-171-160.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 02:32:24 -!- mensch [~mensch@c-67-189-240-148.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:32:25 *|3b|* suspects interpreted, not really sure with ecl though 02:34:09 I tried with three implementations. sbcl, ecl, and ccl 02:34:27 *|3b|* would expect sbcl and ccl to compile 02:34:42 I wanted to check how web server performed, I just wanted to be sure that I got the full performance 02:34:48 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-114-149.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:40 perfect 02:36:12 kanru`` [~user@61-228-151-132.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:25 <|3b|> might try -eval '(load (compile-file "server.lisp"))' instead on ecl 02:37:39 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0065.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:37:49 <|3b|> (for real use you would probably want to compile it in advance though) 02:38:16 I tried that, but can't compile because it can't find hunchentoot, which I load with quicklisp 02:38:30 I need to read more to understand how package work 02:38:41 <|3b|> 'system' not 'package' in this case 02:38:48 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0358.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:39:03 it looks quite complicated even after reading Pratical common lisp and land of lisp 02:39:14 <|3b|> 'package' in CL means a sort of namespace object, so we call groups of files making up a library something else, specifically 'system' 02:40:02 <|3b|> if you just need hunchentoot, you could probably just quickload it with another -eval before that one 02:40:31 <|3b|> or just wait until someone who knows how to use ecl properly shows up to suggest something better :) 02:42:06 *|3b|* suspects the correct solution would involve writing a .asd for your server, and loading that with quicklisp 02:42:22 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129096 02:42:31 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:33 here is how I declared things 02:42:46 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has joined #lisp 02:43:10 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0358.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:43:13 <|3b|> yeah, you generally shouldn't be loading other things from a source file like that for real projects 02:43:21 but it fails when it tried to compile, complaining about hunchentoot not install 02:43:55 I have sbcl and clozure installed, same result 02:44:10 <|3b|> they complain you mean? 02:44:15 yeah 02:44:59 is there any good tutorial on how to manage package? I feel like I still have plenty to learn 02:46:44 <|3b|> minion: tell francisl about xach-asdf 02:46:45 francisl: look at xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 02:47:30 perfect, thanks, Im on it 02:47:55 francisl read an updated version linked at the beginning. http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html 02:56:24 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483AFC8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:53 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B725.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:57:56 *didi* recommends Xach article 02:58:09 It's newbie friendly. :^) 02:58:44 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:59:30 CrLF0710 [~user@114.96.65.232] has joined #lisp 03:00:28 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:04:23 nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 03:09:16 -!- cage [~cage@FLH1Aaq228.fko.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:14:19 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.185] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:17:01 cage [~cage@199.38.234.107] has joined #lisp 03:20:49 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5091D235.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:23:18 Quaydon [~aaaaaaa@cpe-071-068-114-143.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:23:41 -!- jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:26:34 arrdem [~arrdem@resnet-46-169.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 03:27:58 -!- brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:28:59 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.208.25] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:34:28 jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:44 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-163-152.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:38:10 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-163-152.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:38:55 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-163-152.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:52:08 guacamole [~guacamole@cpe-66-68-137-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:56:31 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA31136.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:56:54 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-83-233.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:56:56 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-83-233.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:56:59 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-28-169.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 03:57:41 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-28-169.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 03:58:37 teggi [~teggi@113.173.29.162] has joined #lisp 04:01:18 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:02:10 -!- guacamole [~guacamole@cpe-66-68-137-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 04:03:29 -!- oiig_ [oiig_@112.161.134.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:03:45 -!- CampinSam [~Sam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:08:58 -!- Quaydon [~aaaaaaa@cpe-071-068-114-143.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:09:39 I followed Zach's blog on package + quick lisp, now Im a step ahead. but --load "my file.lisp" stop working 04:09:53 -!- nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:10:11 what is the preferred way to launch an app from shell? 04:13:00 <|3b|> you can load your code with asdf or quicklisp now? 04:14:11 quicklisp 04:14:28 but if I do `sbcl --load my server.lisp` 04:14:45 doesn't work, complain that my package doesn't exist 04:15:18 <|3b|> if so, you can probably use -eval "(ql:quickload :foo)", replacing "foo" with the name of your system 04:18:38 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:58 it works, thanks, next step how to build a binary with ecl 04:23:00 <|3b|> http://ecls.sourceforge.net/new-manual/re03.html looks like one way 04:24:49 -!- fukushima [~fukushima@z128.124-44-151.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:25:22 CrLF0710` [~user@114.96.65.232] has joined #lisp 04:26:02 what kind of performance should I expect from hunchentoot? right now ab gives me 20req/s for a hello world 04:26:22 thanks for the link, I was not looking at the right place 04:26:46 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:27:09 <|3b|> probably depends on implementation, haven't bothered to benchmark it though, so don't know any numbers 04:27:34 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 04:28:11 -!- CrLF0710 [~user@114.96.65.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:29:29 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:29:59 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:25 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:32:29 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:35 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-163-152.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:33:42 -!- tensorpudding__ [~michael@99.32.56.172] has quit [Quit: tensorpudding__] 04:36:08 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.112.96.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:36:41 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:47:45 <|3b|> francisl: fwiw, with hunchentoot from git on sbcl, i get ~2k/sec on the default page 04:49:02 look like my version of ab on lion return weird results. I tried on my other machine and the same code return about the same as you 04:49:13 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 04:51:54 metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 04:56:25 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.184] has joined #lisp 05:01:04 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:01:45 dino82 [75c49131@gateway/web/freenode/ip.117.196.145.49] has joined #lisp 05:03:40 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:47 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:04:25 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.56.172] has joined #lisp 05:05:52 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 05:06:01 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:06:12 -!- ec [~me@ell.io] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:10:10 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7999.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:13:57 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:14:40 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.119.155] has joined #lisp 05:15:05 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.56.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:16:49 pnq [~nick@AC8123FA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 05:17:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-123.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:18:20 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002130088196.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:19:38 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 05:22:14 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 05:23:05 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:26:49 kevin01123 [~user@97-91-232-86.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:30:43 I've got some simple code here that I can't get working. http://pastebin.com/uXJjeiep From what I understand, the cond predicates should be evaluated sequentially, so when it hits the 'infinity symbol, it should return the other entry. However, it skips both of those, goes all the way to the t in the cond expression, and complains that 'infinity isn't a number. Why does this happen? 05:30:44 cmm [~cmm@109.65.214.84] has joined #lisp 05:31:53 -!- didi [~user@177.64.28.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:32:28 <|3b|> the list (QUOTE INFINITY) is not EQ to the symbol INFINITY 05:35:08 Oddity [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 05:37:09 huangho [~huangho@189.116.106.220] has joined #lisp 05:37:27 |3b|: Gaaaaaah. Thank you. 05:44:19 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 05:45:21 -!- huangho [~huangho@189.116.106.220] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:54:18 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 05:56:34 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8123FA.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:56:34 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:57:37 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has joined #lisp 05:58:02 pnq [~nick@AC8123FA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 06:09:11 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 06:13:18 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 06:16:23 kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-180-83.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 06:19:50 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.119.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:23:11 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8123FA.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 06:25:29 pnq [~nick@AC8123FA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 06:25:46 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-244.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30:26 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:34:28 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.127.166] has joined #lisp 06:36:58 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.42.170] has joined #lisp 06:39:47 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8123FA.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:40:04 -!- CrazyEddy [~counterri@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:42:33 pnq [~nick@AC8123FA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 06:42:35 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:45:53 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176343411.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 06:49:47 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 06:55:20 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 06:56:47 CrazyEddy [~shortly@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 06:58:06 klltkr [~klltkr@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:02:13 fukushima [~fukushima@z128.124-44-151.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:07:01 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8123FA.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:07:02 CONSTANTP, what a great function 07:07:16 Quadrescence: it's sometimes useful, yes 07:07:24 -!- jakky [jokk@2001:470:33:2::1ce] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:07:31 useful in micro-optimizing and macro-writing 07:07:36 yep 07:07:57 and SBCL is quite nice in the sense that things like (+1 2) is CONSTANTP -> T 07:08:07 (+ 1 2) i mean 07:08:20 Oh I didn't realize that. Nice! 07:09:05 pnq [~nick@AC8123FA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 07:09:52 -!- metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:11:25 jakky [jokk@2001:470:33:2::1ce] has joined #lisp 07:12:42 Micro-optimizing the computation of "of {x1, ..., xN}, are any M of them true?" here https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/src/8d81d9525659/m-of-n-circuit.lisp 07:13:25 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8123FA.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:15:48 or rather http://tinyurl.com/7oug238 if you want fixed examples :) 07:16:50 Quadrescence: what's with that last expansion having M in it? 07:17:18 actually that's a bug! 07:17:21 good eye 07:17:32 thought so, but wasn't entirely sure what was going on 07:17:52 It should be `(any-n-of-m ,(- m truths) ...), I think? 07:18:11 no, (- ,m ,truths), since m is non-constant 07:18:30 i.e. it has to (probably) compute (- m truths) at runtime 07:19:36 ah. 07:20:06 Well... you could use constantp on m as well, couldn't you? 07:20:39 probably, but then I have to decide if it's an integer, somehow 07:21:07 probably overcomplicated. sensible. 07:21:32 I'll assume the compiler will do that constant folding. The question is: will it do it before it hits the compiler macro 07:21:59 ferdynan_d [~ferdynan_@cs78225212.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:23:13 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:12 -!- kanru`` [~user@61-228-151-132.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.50.1] 07:27:53 if you call (defpackage b) after (in-package a), b is only visible from within a, right? 07:29:05 <|3b|> package names are global 07:29:38 ah, so no such thing as sub-packages? 07:29:48 <|3b|> not in the CL spec 07:30:27 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:32:10 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-175-3-20.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:33:10 -!- shifty [~user@114-198-37-54.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:34:23 shifty [~user@114-198-37-54.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:34:54 oiig_ [oiig_@112.161.134.227] has joined #lisp 07:35:44 is there a rationale behind not having sub-packages? 07:35:53 -!- kevin01123 [~user@97-91-232-86.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:36:43 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c37cf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:27 kanru`` [~user@61-228-151-132.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:32 thekilon [~kilon@athedsl-410964.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:40:46 hi 07:42:50 robot-beethoven: what exactly would be the meaning of a sub-package? one that automatically :imports all symbols from its parent? 07:43:08 -!- kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-180-83.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:46:10 robot-beethoven: i think the rationale for not having that in cl is that no agreement exists that it would be universally useful. 07:46:45 robot-beethoven: _or_ it could be that noone had the idea when the standard was written. 07:47:44 I was thinking in terms of using sub-packages to split a package into multiple namespaces 07:48:11 robot-beethoven: what do you need the hierarchy for? 07:48:32 probably silly reasons ;) 07:48:52 -!- thekilon [~kilon@athedsl-410964.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:48:58 <|3b|> allegro has hierarchical packages if you really want them 07:48:59 robot-beethoven: i'm not implying that. 07:49:51 I'm making a little web-page generator, package :web 07:50:19 it has a few files that deal with different areas: html, css, js, svg, etc 07:50:57 perhaps they should just be in their own packages, but till now I've been considering them all part of :web 07:51:15 robot-beethoven: i'd put them into separate packages. 07:51:29 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-401021.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:52:39 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-401021.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:53:10 H4ns: that's what I'm thinking... I like to keep names short, and the separate namespaces will allow this 07:53:11 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.42.170] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.95.1] 07:54:23 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-401021.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:54:51 robot-beethoven: so what makes you want hierarchical packages again? 07:56:55 H4ns: I was thinking of having the separate packages (for html, css, etc.) being sub-packages of :web 07:56:56 *|3b|* assumes the ability to use relative package names would help there 07:57:22 |3b|: ah, that i understand. 07:57:56 H4ns: though now it's no longer seeming that good to me, why lock them up inside :web 07:58:35 <|3b|> robot-beethoven: it isn't a bad idea, just not a general enough one 07:58:45 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.42.170] has joined #lisp 07:58:48 klltkr_ [~klltkr@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:59:20 <|3b|> you would just have robot-beethoven.web and robot-beethoven.svg, then they could use relative names to access eachother 07:59:24 Whitesquall [~notwhites@94.242.145.107] has joined #lisp 07:59:45 <|3b|> but the problem is that still doesn't help anyone else that wants a short name for one of your packages 08:00:08 so it is more about package naming than about symbol scope, right? 08:00:24 yes 08:00:34 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-80-4.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:00:37 i like short package names :) 08:01:01 local package aliases would be useful, again 08:01:06 <|3b|> yeah 08:01:58 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:02:06 *|3b|* wonders if anyone would fund a package-local-nicknames spec 08:03:13 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:03:47 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 08:03:51 metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 08:03:52 -!- klltkr_ [~klltkr@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:04:30 H4ns: are you the H4ns that makes bknr-datastore? 08:04:39 robot-beethoven: yes 08:05:36 zorro77 [zorro77@2.227.168.232] has joined #lisp 08:05:39 ciao 08:05:43 !list 08:05:46 robot-beethoven: "made" would be more descriptive 08:05:52 !.list 08:05:54 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has left #lisp 08:06:06 !:list 08:06:33 -!- zorro77 [zorro77@2.227.168.232] has left #lisp 08:06:39 zorro77: we are real people here, please use english sentences. 08:07:11 H4ns: is the manual currentish, or is it better to learn usage from the source? 08:07:15 |3b|: i'd be supporting a cdr on that. 08:07:42 robot-beethoven: i've updated the tutorial a while ago. not all features are documented, but the manual still should be useful. 08:08:54 uh, i thought i had updated the tutorial, but apparently never pushed it :( 08:09:09 H4ns: does one need to be very familiar with the MOP to use bknr-datastore? 08:09:31 robot-beethoven: no, as a user, you don't need to understand the mop. just clos. 08:10:05 robot-beethoven: the tutorial looks current enough, too. 08:11:05 robot-beethoven: look at the presentation slides, too. 08:12:46 -!- dino82 [75c49131@gateway/web/freenode/ip.117.196.145.49] has left #lisp 08:13:05 H4ns: thanks! -- looking forward to playing with this. I love the idea of not needing to map to SQL 08:14:04 robot-beethoven: it works pretty well for me in the applications that i've based on it. 08:16:03 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 08:16:38 H4ns: does bknr have any facility for scaling beyond a single lisp image? 08:16:44 Ralith: no. 08:16:47 aw 08:17:05 I guess if you've had so much success that you need to do that you can spare the effort to port to SQL, though. 08:17:35 Ralith: right. that is my thinking. i've had my share in creating systems for collossal scale that never saw more than just a few users. 08:17:47 *Ralith* nod 08:18:08 as engineers we love to design for extreme circumstances 08:18:18 but it's often the least efficient approach. 08:18:21 (ironically) 08:18:36 i happen to appreciate the simplicity of the small scale 08:18:57 and also, by addressing the large scale too early, one is always addressing the wrong problems first 08:24:39 benny` [~benny@i577A11E8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:25:20 -!- benny` is now known as benny 08:27:46 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 08:28:03 extreme circumstances ? 08:28:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:29:19 homie: "we're becomming as successful as twitter" would be such an extreme 08:29:21 -!- oiig_ [oiig_@112.161.134.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:34:48 replore [~replore@EM117-55-65-135.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 08:46:52 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 08:46:53 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 08:51:59 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:52:15 homie: yes, like circumstances where all the electricity sources external to a nuclear reactor are cut off. 08:52:32 homie: that's where the politicians and economists arrive and say, no that's not possible. 08:52:59 homie: and that's where the earthquakes and tsunnamies arrive to contradict the politicians and economists, proving the engineers were right. 08:53:25 Let's just hope radioactive contamination will kill all the politicians. 08:58:27 ehu` [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:01:26 -!- metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:01:55 what if a vulcan begins to grow from under ? what if an asteroid hits it ? 09:02:02 lol 09:03:54 ok local extremes.... 09:05:10 add^_ [~add^_^@m83-185-142-102.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 09:15:13 homie: small asteroids are dealt with the concrete around the reactor. Big asteroids are a bigger problem than the radiation and nucleotides released by the reactor. 09:16:26 As for the volcan, engineer choose places where volcan don't grow from under. But the point is that what's catastrophic for a nuclear reactor is to lose electric power. Anything can happen to it, as long as you have electric power to shut it down. 09:16:59 Now, I'd tend to agree that the designs are silly if a nuclear power reactor needs external energy sources to operate. 09:17:13 But that's another question. 09:18:02 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 09:19:53 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:21:27 The problem is keeping the nuclear waste safe for centuries. 09:21:40 And requiring competent people to run them. 09:22:23 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-401021.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:22:32 -!- unsymbol [~unsymbol@unaffiliated/unsymbol] has left #lisp 09:31:23 Zhivago: the nuclear waste is radioactive: therefore it's not a waste, it's an energy source! 09:31:52 But yes, the problem is to have enough competent people. It's not with the current state of the education systems worldwide that we can have enough of them. 09:32:57 does that mean the chain ins not exhausted effectively ? 09:33:20 Far from it. 09:34:00 Well, depends on the purpose actually. The current nuclear reactors are quite effective, at producing plutonium. 09:34:23 jah but the normal chain leads to lead! 09:35:12 reaction chain/path whatever.... 09:35:31 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:36:05 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@90.150.174.164] has joined #lisp 09:36:09 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 09:39:55 behelit [~behelit@c213-89-59-224.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:42:36 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:43:10 jdz [~jdz@host211-15-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:45:08 -!- behelit [~behelit@c213-89-59-224.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:45:17 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:45:22 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 09:46:20 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:46:37 m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.197] has joined #lisp 09:51:16 -!- splittist [b2c6684a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.198.104.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:54:02 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.127.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:55:04 zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-163-13.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 09:56:56 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002130088196.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 09:59:53 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:59:58 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 10:00:18 klltkr [~klltkr@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:00:25 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 10:03:07 -!- jdz [~jdz@host211-15-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:03:17 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:04:02 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:10:34 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:10:38 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 10:11:09 I made a blog post about the code I pasted earlier, if anyone is interested: http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=1352 10:13:31 truncated in rss :( 10:13:56 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@141-162-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:09 Xach, I still haven't figured that out :S 10:15:24 hagish [~hagish@p5091D014.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:24 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:50 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@141-162-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has left #lisp 10:18:00 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@141-162-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:17 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@141-162-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has left #lisp 10:30:28 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:30:34 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 10:31:37 skulls [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has joined #lisp 10:34:17 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:34:21 -!- cage [~cage@199.38.234.107] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:36:34 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:40:04 -!- replore [~replore@EM117-55-65-135.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:44:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:46:17 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 10:56:07 Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.11.184] has joined #lisp 10:57:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:57:45 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 10:59:23 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.29.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:59:45 driftcrow [~user@118.253.11.61] has joined #lisp 10:59:52 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c37cf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:04:21 m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.197] has joined #lisp 11:04:46 Guthur [~user@host86-160-22-104.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:05:09 -!- driftcrow [~user@118.253.11.61] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:07:40 -!- dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has left #lisp 11:08:27 dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 11:08:35 hi 11:08:49 so, what about this trivial-temporary-file lib? :) 11:09:07 dim: we recognized that it won't work on windows 11:09:23 even what we wrote yesternight? 11:09:27 dim: but for the time being, you can use it - http://paste.lisp.org/display/129090#10 11:09:57 dim: yes. #P"/tmp/" ain't good on windows. and we can't portably access the environment. 11:10:30 dim: i don't have a windows box right here, but i'm going to look for one tomorrow and try to come up with something satisfactory. 11:10:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:10:54 I would have imagined that the environment is more portable than that 11:10:59 dim: we also put the stuff into alexandria so that we could use remove-from-plist and not have to resort to :allow-other-keys 11:11:18 dim: "the environment" was not a common concept when common lisp was standardized 11:11:26 ahah 11:11:26 :( 11:11:47 alexandria should probably offer something here, right? or would that entail doing FFI? 11:12:28 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 11:12:42 dim: most implementations offer getenv of some sorts, but then there'd be platform specific issues, too (i.e. windows vs. unix etc) 11:13:10 it all is teh suck. such a simple problem :/ 11:14:21 well, maybe i'll try something with a logical pathname later on 11:15:20 that said all you need for the code to work well on windows is making sure the caller is passing down an existing directory, right? 11:15:32 like, test that before entering the max-tries looping 11:17:01 right. that'd be a fair change to make. 11:17:45 one could bail out by testing the directory for existence and displaying a message with instructions on how to initialize the logical pathname for temporary files. 11:18:28 behelit [~behelit@c213-89-59-224.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:19:21 hey, that's another member of my standard utils.lisp 11:21:14 I or we have to figure out a solution to everyone having their own utility library. 11:21:23 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:22:08 Quadrescence: the solution is to move all those things that are non-controversion into alexandria 11:23:14 H4ns: A proper with-temporary-file that uses syscalls would depend on cffi but cffi depends on alexandria 11:23:37 tcr1: "proper" in what sense? 11:23:48 H4ns, Unfortunately, I'm not sure that's proven to be an effective solution. Or maybe it's my problem because I haven't tried to integrate any of my utilities into it. 11:24:27 H4ns: It's a very filesystem specific operation so it makes sense to me to ask the OS to handle it 11:24:30 Quadrescence: it works well for me. i live without a personal utils.lisp 11:24:54 entrix_ [~entrix@95-25-187-178.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 11:24:57 mkstemp in glibc does the same thing, except for random generation 11:25:04 so i don't see how it would be any more proper 11:25:16 H4ns, here's my util lib :( --> https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/qtility/src 11:25:16 -!- entrix_ [~entrix@95-25-187-178.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 11:25:34 Quadrescence: i'm not going to adopt yours either :) 11:25:45 haha, no, I'm not suggesting it 11:26:15 now, i don't know how windows does it, but i don't expect it to be any different 11:26:31 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:26:35 replore_ [~replore@EM117-55-65-135.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 11:27:01 the only remaining issue is the initialization of the *temporary-directory* special variable 11:27:24 H4ns: There's a variety of general-purpose functionality that cannot just be expressed using Common Lisp. Alexandria is not a place for it. (It could. but it would change what alexandria is quite dramatically.) 11:27:41 tcr1: i'm not debating that. 11:28:12 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 11:28:22 tcr1: open-temporary/with-open-temporary-file seem to be candidates for alexandria, though. well, except for this one little thing :) 11:29:38 H4ns: with the testing of the directory up-front we're back in package trivial-temporary-file I think, which I'll include in Postmodern sources for now 11:30:26 before that though, some civic action needs being done... 11:30:55 joachifm [~joachifm@ulrik.uio.no] has joined #lisp 11:33:54 -!- Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.11.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:33:54 -!- ferdynan_d [~ferdynan_@cs78225212.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:34:38 well, rain is against that plan, back to CL 11:35:43 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:35:48 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:37:33 not totally serious about this, but maybe? http://paste.lisp.org/display/129090#11 11:38:36 that'd at least be a common lispy solution, but it'd also be slightly alienating, i guess. 11:45:46 I need to read on logical-pathname-translations 11:45:54 (info "(ansicl) logical-pathname-translations") 11:47:09 entrix_ [~entrix@95-25-80-1.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 11:47:19 *Xach* means to write about those too 11:51:59 dim: i think http://paste.lisp.org/display/129090#12 is pretty good, as it gives a proper error message on systems that don't have /tmp/ 11:52:00 mmm, complex stuff 11:53:31 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.56.172] has joined #lisp 11:53:54 -!- harish_afk [~harish@119.234.210.250] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:54:11 I would add the probe-file in the open-temporary function just before entering the loop... 11:54:25 and that needs to be a writable directory, too 11:54:53 maybe using ensure-directories-exist 11:55:16 dim: i don't agree 11:55:34 why not? 11:55:39 dim: adding extra checks won't make the error messages much clearer 11:55:40 H4ns: with-simple-restart won't loop 11:56:04 exactly, I'm trying not to loop at all when we know before hand we can't succeed 11:56:12 stassats: grr. that is one of the reasons why i dislike loop 11:56:21 ragazzaaaaa [~shshhwset@host145-8-dynamic.245-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:56:26 well, it has nothing to do with LOOP! 11:56:52 hrm. partly. 11:57:07 i'm removing the restart, it does not add much value anyway :) 11:57:16 -!- ragazzaaaaa [~shshhwset@host145-8-dynamic.245-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 11:57:19 other than showing that i don't know how to use it :) 11:58:46 CL-USER> (directory "/tmp") => (#P"/private/tmp/") 11:58:59 dim: you cannot probe a directory for writability anyway. and ensure-directories-exists would not be the right thing on windows. 11:59:09 mm, doesn't way about it being a writable directory 12:08:08 directory returns truenames for which most implementations follow symlinks. 12:08:19 (as they probably should do). 12:09:40 interestingly with-open-temporary-file as written is not closing the stream nor deleting the file, should I be worried? 12:10:00 not closing? 12:10:32 with-open-stream might be doing that, sorry 12:10:50 with-open-stream performs a series of operations on STREAM, returns a value, and then closes the STREAM. 12:10:52 ok then 12:11:09 what about deleting the temporary file created by the macro? 12:11:41 I can see why we don't want to do that, but that needs being documented 12:12:42 Temporary files should be delete after OPEN. 12:13:18 (with-open-stream (stream (prog1 (OPEN "/tmp/file") (DELETE-FILE "/tmp/file"))) ) 12:13:46 pjb: many uses of temporary files require processing the file with another program before it is deleted 12:13:57 does that even work in windows, pjb? 12:14:08 dim: no. 12:14:10 I'm not sure :-) 12:14:17 H4ns: those cases are served with open-temporary, I think 12:14:33 But if the file is used by other processes, it's not so 'temporary' anymore. 12:14:35 you only use with-open-temporary-file when you're ok to delete the file as soon as your BODY is done 12:14:42 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-123.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:14:53 well, say, another block of code 12:14:55 I guess 12:15:00 dim: i'd use w-o-t-f to return the name of the file. the point of the with- is to close the file when it is completely written. 12:15:45 dim: one could return the name of the file, similar to with-output-to-string 12:15:55 written as it is it's not even returning a specific thing 12:15:59 just what body does 12:16:25 right. which is not entirely unexpected, given the name 12:19:10 dim: that could be an option of the operator. 12:19:55 open has :rename-and-delete and close has :abort. 12:21:07 flipout [~user@75-175-124-15.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:10 I'm still at System "trivial-temporary-file" not found 12:21:26 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@252-34-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:28 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@252-34-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:21:59 i'm leaning towards alexandria 12:22:22 I'm including it into postmodern to avoid having postmodern depend on alexandria 12:22:30 sure 12:23:38 it's the age of quicklisp, nobody would care about alexandria dependency 12:23:56 rain stopped, back in some :) 12:24:23 Don't! 12:24:27 It's all wet ouside! 12:24:34 Wait for it to dry up. 12:24:56 ( And with some luck, it'll rain again before it dries up! :-) ) 12:25:48 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-058-085.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:58 -!- entrix_ [~entrix@95-25-80-1.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:33:07 harish [~harish@119.234.210.250] has joined #lisp 12:34:38 -!- replore_ [~replore@EM117-55-65-135.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:35:25 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-1-252.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:37:35 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c37cf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:22 kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-71-192.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:38:30 entrix [~entrix@95-25-80-1.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 12:39:44 -!- behelit [~behelit@c213-89-59-224.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:39:52 -!- entrix [~entrix@95-25-80-1.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 12:43:43 back 12:44:29 it's said that to write good code you need to exercise from time to time, let's pretend I just did :) 12:45:23 exercise in writing code? 12:46:33 like stretch your legs, have a walk, do some sport, oxygen the brain 12:46:49 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:47:39 so postmodern is a single QL entry and its top directory contains 4 .asd files, each defining a system, some of them depending on some others 12:48:02 I'm adding a 5th asd file here, and QL fails to consider it, it seems 12:48:10 I don't see any file to "register" the asd files 12:48:18 OIW, I'm lost. Again. 12:48:38 I find that pauses from coding are a big boost to productivity and quality. Using these pauses for exercising is probably a good thing 12:49:02 I find it very hard to switch brain to think about something else 12:49:03 dim: if you make modifications, copy to ~/quicklisp/local-projects and delete the system-index.txt file. 12:49:15 oh, system-index.txt 12:49:20 (the copy I already did) 12:49:26 ok 12:49:37 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs78186070.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:49:43 does one need to delete system-index.txt? 12:49:55 oh, now QL sees my new package! 12:50:09 Be sure to boot your lisp from ~/ after having deleted system-index.txt, because there's a bug that makes it build it wrongly otherwise. 12:50:12 stassats`: when adding a new .asd file in a local-projects/ yes 12:50:15 you mean system? 12:50:22 sustem-index.txt 12:50:28 system-index.txt 12:50:59 system-index.txt now contains Postmodern/trivial-temporary-file.asd 12:51:12 http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/faq.html doesn't say anything about system-index.txt 12:51:47 (defpackage :trivial-temporary-file (:nicknames "tempfile" "tmp") ...) allows me to :depends-on :trivial-temporary-file and use tmp:open-temporary-file, right? 12:53:04 replore [~replore@EM117-55-65-136.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 12:53:06 -!- replore [~replore@EM117-55-65-136.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:54:34 dim it's asdf system that allows your system to be used in :depends-on, not the package 12:55:02 right 12:55:12 -!- joachifm [~joachifm@ulrik.uio.no] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:55:21 I mean, asdf makes the package loaded, and it has a nickname 12:55:30 now I can use the nickname in the code that depends on the package, right? 12:55:47 yes 12:56:24 it fails. 12:56:54 dim: asdf systems and packages have no direct relation 12:57:05 well asdf allows to load packages? 12:57:15 dim: just put the file, including the package definition in the top, into the postmodern asdf system 12:57:29 dim: no, asdf allows you to load systems. packages are unrelated to them. 12:57:42 I'm trying to copy what postmodern already does to define the other systems and packages 12:58:00 mmm, right, I still have things somehow mixed up in my mind here 12:58:15 dim: you don't need a new system if all you need is temporary files in one part of postmodern. 12:58:40 I want to make it easy to dump it all and instead depends-on alexandria 12:58:45 dim: it is very simple, which is the problem. 12:59:08 dim: yes, that is very easy. just put it into a self-contained file, the package definition and the functions. done. 12:59:27 (:nicknames tempfile temp tmp) rather than (:nicknames "tempfile" "temp" "tmp") seems to be doing the trick... 12:59:45 dim: but still problematic. 12:59:45 CL-USER> (find-package 'temp) 12:59:45 # 12:59:48 yeah, it works 12:59:52 Use: (:nicknames "TEMPFILE" "TEMP" "TMP") 13:00:00 dim: if you want to do it right, use (:nicknames #:temp #:tempfile #:tmp) 13:00:02 then it breaks, pjb 13:00:07 #:, ok 13:00:29 dim: it breaks if you use lower-case spelling because your reader upper-cases all symbols before interning them. 13:00:37 (so that I'm not polluting some random package with my symbols, right?) 13:00:53 dim: right. also, i'd not define nicknames that are not used. 13:01:08 and if you use symbols, you're interning them in the current package, which will cause problems when you try to import or use packages exporting symbols with the same name. 13:01:19 so #:temp only then 13:01:38 I prefer to use strings for package designators instead of symbols. 13:01:42 dim: ... which is why the #: syntax is best - it does not intern the symbol and works with non-standard reader case conversion settings. 13:01:43 pjb: not with #: IIUC 13:01:59 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:02:11 Yes, #: or : are ok. 13:02:14 I'm already using #: in some other places, just was fighting with nicknames 13:02:18 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 13:02:18 good 13:02:25 so much details to trip on 13:02:26 i like : syntax, because who cares about what is interned into KEYWORD 13:02:56 Furthermore the package name may already be used as keyword for other purposes, such as *features*. 13:03:08 stassats`: true, for package names, keywords are fine. not so much for exported symbols, i think. 13:03:10 with all that I still have to actually test the bulk-copy feature of a git only branch of postmodern to see if that works with non-allegro implementations and then decide if I can depend on that for pgloader, meaning pushing for inclusion upstream etc 13:03:16 ah, the fun of CL open source :) 13:04:37 i avoid adding non-package names to keyword package, because i like tab-completing keywords 13:05:24 nikodemus: for keyword arguments? 13:05:35 nikodemus: would you accept http://paste.lisp.org/display/129090#13 into alexandria? 13:05:52 nikodemus: say "i don't know" and i'll post to the mailing list instead :) 13:06:12 fuzzy completion should have contextual completion, when it shows keywords of the function at the top 13:06:19 (but it doesn't, still) 13:07:32 H4ns: my instinct is to say no, because eg. osicat provides the same facility, but in a more secure manner 13:07:55 nikodemus: not on windows 13:08:00 nikodemus: osicat temp file facility does not work on windows 13:08:32 hm 13:08:33 and even if you modify it to work on windows, library function of windows is rather weak 13:08:59 mailing list, then 13:09:04 and mkstemp isn't any more secure, except that it uses a different algorithm to generate random files, but that can be changed later 13:09:19 nikodemus: ok 13:10:26 well just use your own random naming function 13:10:37 that's not a good argument 13:11:09 it is when the default is plenty good enough :) 13:15:28 -!- fukushima [~fukushima@z128.124-44-151.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:15:56 dbushenko [~dim@93.125.19.84] has joined #lisp 13:16:06 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c37cf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:16:14 -!- dbushenko [~dim@93.125.19.84] has left #lisp 13:17:33 -!- Oddity [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:18:47 fukushima [~fukushima@z128.124-44-151.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:19:01 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs78186070.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:26:05 guacamole [~guacamole@cpe-66-68-137-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:28:27 nikodemus [~nikodemus@178-55-224-46.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:29:31 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:34:17 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:35:45 -!- guacamole [~guacamole@cpe-66-68-137-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 13:38:40 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@182.Red-88-7-133.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:54 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@178-55-224-46.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:39:32 -!- arrdem [~arrdem@resnet-46-169.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:46:53 nikodemus [~nikodemus@178-55-224-46.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:47:08 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:49:13 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:16 So it seems asdf:defsystem doesn't expect a :name option. I had that in some of my systems, but it seems it's useles. Am I right? 13:52:38 Well, it seems the :author is not defined either in the ASDF manual. Where are specified the attribute one can or should give to asdf systems? quicklisp? 13:53:02 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@182.Red-88-7-133.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 13:53:44 asdf has its own docs, you can even have them in Info format 13:54:01 dim: I'm reading the ASDF Manual, and observe that it doesn't define those fields! 13:54:07 (info "(asdf) The defsystem grammar") 13:54:18 http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/The-defsystem-grammar.html#The-defsystem-grammar 13:54:29 There's no :name, no :description, no :author, etc. 13:54:44 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 13:55:19 Harag [~phil@dsl-243-196-47.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:55:20 pjb: Yeah, I always just check asdf.lisp  the possible keywords are just the slots on the system class. (or component/module/etc) 13:55:44 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@182.Red-88-7-133.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:06 sellout: then one should DELETE the documentation! 13:56:24 pjb: Yeah, agreed. Where is Fare? 13:56:27 There's no point in having a documentation if it's not complete or synchronous with the code. 13:56:51 yes 13:57:30 I have exactly 425 copies of asdf.lisp on my hard disk 13:57:32 send a patch 13:57:35 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:36 :-) 14:00:41 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 14:00:47 Correction, there are only 292 asdf.lisp files on my HD, the others are files containing "asdf.lisp" in their name. 14:00:51 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:01:23 what is this, Pascal beat up on asdf maintainers day? 14:01:56 Kryztof: He's always beating up on someone. I think Fare is one of the better-prepared to deal with it ;) 14:02:10 yeah, but he's not the only pascal indulging in it 14:02:33 Kryztof: Oh? I didn't see Costanza's stuff. Heh. 14:03:02 whiny "you guys are doing all this free work that I don't think suits me personally" crap 14:03:28 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 14:03:30 I'm okay with asdf.lisp, it's the documentation that's misleading me :-) 14:03:34 only expressed even more insultingly 14:05:31 Otherwise, about the size of asdf.lisp, while I agree that small streams make big rivers, I'd consider TCP/IP packet size: it doesn't take more time to download asdf.lisp when it's 65537 byte than when it's 131068. 14:09:49 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:10:39 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 14:13:12 Where? 14:14:46 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 14:14:54 asdf-devel 14:16:13 Well, general requirements are surprisingly different for specific tools such as asdf than for normal libraries. 14:16:25 H4ns: Postgresql protocol error: Unexpected message received: I --- maybe the copy protocol implementation from mcna isn't ready 14:18:01 pjb: right, because asdf is trying to solve a human problem rather more than a technical problem. And ask three humans how they'd like to organize their code, and they'll come up with ten answers 14:19:35 -!- ehu` is now known as ehu 14:23:16 -!- eni is now known as albacker 14:23:20 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:23:20 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #lisp 14:31:39 it's best not to ask humans about their preferences anyway, because they never really know what they prefer. I for one welcome the robots 14:34:20 is http://www.jarw.org.uk/lisp/jarw.html very known and used? 14:34:32 a friend wants to use that for its unix crypt implementation in CL 14:34:38 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:34:48 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-058-085.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:35:08 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-160-22-104.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35:34 it requires http://clocc.sourceforge.net/dist/port.html that's not in QL yet 14:36:00 mensch [~mensch@c-67-189-240-148.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:30 dim: your friend may be interested in ironclad (http://method-combination.net/lisp/ironclad/) 14:39:48 thx 14:40:47 ironclad has no support for plain unix crypt apparently 14:41:08 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-163-152.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:41:40 ainm [~ainm@238.Red-83-33-83.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:48 tomekd789 [tomekd789@hbm66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:42:07 man crypt tells me crypt() uses DES "with variations" 14:42:09 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:42:30 Guthur [~user@host86-160-22-104.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:34 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-163-152.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:42:37 reading some crypt() implementations should tell you more 14:43:21 dim: what do you need it for ? 14:43:24 I'm going thru http://mohiji.nfshost.com/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-windows/, and I'm at "Download and Install Quicklisp". 14:43:55 Alas, after restarting the CLISP as requested, it looks like "autostart" doesn't work. 14:44:09 renard_ [~renard@2a01:e0b:1:150:ca0a:a9ff:fef1:a847] has joined #lisp 14:44:12 hi 14:45:11 I've created the file .clisprc.lisp, but it looks like it's not processed at CLISP startup. Any hints pls? 14:45:33 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-80-4.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:46:28 tomekd789: it's probably in the wrong directory 14:46:32 hi renard_ 14:46:40 tomekd789: I doubt anyone here uses CLISP on Windows, but the blog post you linked to appears to allow commenting! 14:47:37 I am starting CL I asearch arround how to use the crypt(3) system functions 14:47:56 renard_: what do you want to do with it ? 14:47:57 tomekd789 IIRC clisp uses HOME environment variable if it exists 14:47:57 tomekd789: also, "looks like doesn't work" is not a very useful problem description 14:48:11 I found jarw which has a full lisp inplementation of the crypt(3) function 14:48:43 fe[nl]ix: trying to encrypt a password using the standard unix crypt function 14:49:09 An other way is to use cffi right ? 14:49:10 why crypt() and not something else ? 14:50:32 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-141-69.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:50:40 fe[nl]ix: such as ? 14:51:00 OK, I've got it. I was wrong with paths indeed. Thanks. 14:51:37 renard_: PBKDF2 14:52:10 fe[nl]ix: thanks for the tip 14:52:32 galaris [~galaris@catv-188-142-168-95.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:52:35 renard_: pbkdf2 is available in ironclad, iirc 14:52:50 but I wouls like to show how a password looks under different schemes shich as crypt, md5, sha1 etc.. 14:53:07 Thus I would like to uzse crypt() any way 14:53:13 vxqw [153567@smaragd.ifi.uio.no] has joined #lisp 14:53:14 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-163-152.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:53:14 Yes I do use ironclad 14:53:27 but unfortunatly it ds not provode crypt 14:54:33 dim: all the fuzz for nothing :/ 14:54:35 renard_: I think I would just extract crypt.lisp from jarw package 14:54:46 H4ns: wait, I'm not done, it was just a break 14:54:53 H4ns: seems the I message is empty result 14:54:57 dim: I think I gonna do that yep 14:54:57 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55:16 I'm a little surprised it's not already implemented in the protocol support in postmodern, but well, might as well have a try 14:55:58 renard_: I would even clean out jarw from the clocc/port dependency :) 14:56:40 port using mk:defsystem rather than asdf :( 14:59:30 seems crypt.lisp doesn't actually depend anything.. just defpackage and load it 15:00:00 kanru``: yep 15:00:17 but jarw depends on port I guess 15:00:29 would be great to add it in QL 15:00:59 -!- sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:02:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:02:49 renard_: fork them on github and add support for asdf, adding to the mk:defsystem support it's having now? 15:03:52 OK, slime started in emacs, thanks again. :) 15:03:58 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-141-69.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:04:19 dim: Yep let's do that 15:06:23 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-141-69.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:08:39 On MS-Windows, it would depend on whether it's a clisp compiled for MS-Windows or for Cygwin. 15:08:41 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 15:09:27 can "official SLIME" and clojure-mode coexist in the same emacs session? 15:09:33 tomekd789: better create it with clisp itself! (close (open #P"~/.clisprc.lisp" :direction :output :if-does-not-exist :create)) and then search where it's createde. 15:10:08 tomekd789: on Cygwin it should be $HOME/.clisprc.lisp ; on MS-Windows it should be %USERPROFILE%/.clisprc.lisp or something. 15:13:37 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.184] has joined #lisp 15:17:00 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has joined #lisp 15:17:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:19:59 pjb: so wasteful!! 15:20:20 pjb: use :direction :probe 15:20:33 -!- tomekd789 [tomekd789@hbm66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:21:31 right I was thinking about :probe but didn't remember if it worked with :create. 15:22:23 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.238.48.84] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:26:28 metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 15:26:53 Kron [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has joined #lisp 15:30:46 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:31:51 tomekd789 [tomekd789@hbm66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:33:15 -!- galaris [~galaris@catv-188-142-168-95.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:35:18 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:35:31 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:36:01 Radium [~carbon@117.203.14.123] has joined #lisp 15:39:09 -!- CrLF0710` [~user@114.96.65.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:42:11 chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has joined #lisp 15:42:11 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has quit [Changing host] 15:42:11 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 15:47:15 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:50:22 dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:42 sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 15:51:51 pjb: thanks for the remarks regarding temorary file names. where do you like to see :case :common? 15:53:12 H4ns: in make-pathname. 15:53:44 pjb: ok 15:55:06 pjb: the thing with using a longer random number is that the random state will most likely not be initialized in a clever fashion by most users 15:55:13 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:55:18 On the other hand, if the directory is not a logical pathname, you don't need to use :case :common; But if it is a logical pathname this implies that either you upcase the prefix or you specify your function such as the user gives only a 'word' (as defined 19.3.1 Syntax of Logical Pathname Namestrings). 15:55:28 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:55:35 H4ns: you need to initialize it yourself in your own random state object. 15:55:51 pjb: thus, adding some other factor (like the internal real time) reduces the likelyness that the same sequence of random strings is generated by two programs. only slightly, but it does. 15:56:11 Not much. 15:56:48 real time has a 1 second resolution and uses now 7 base-36 digits. 15:57:06 In one second on a multi-gigaHz machine you can have a lot of created files. 15:57:08 right. but with two programs that don't seed the random number generator, using only a randum number will generate the precise same sequence in the two instances. 15:57:37 About one million, but 41 bit of randomness is way over 20 bits of collision. 15:57:43 pjb: in my implementation, real time has 1 ms resolution 15:57:51 That's why you need to initialize the random state yourself! 15:58:08 That's still one thousand files created in 1 ms. 15:58:43 pjb: we'll not converge here. 15:59:21 No problem. Once again alexendria gets an inferior solution. How happy I am with cesarum! :-) 16:01:53 -!- tomekd789 [tomekd789@hbm66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:02:02 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 16:02:23 For example, if you repeat 10000 times, you can easily do that during the same 1ms. 16:04:30 Eg. it would be much more useful to use the PID than the time. 16:04:52 PID + a small random number and you will never have any fortuituous collision. 16:04:58 i know. but then, getting the pid has the same problem as getting something from the environment 16:05:02 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.102.107] has joined #lisp 16:05:03 Yes. 16:05:20 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:05:21 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:06:26 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:08:55 pnq [~nick@ACA3865C.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:25 -!- harish [~harish@119.234.210.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:10:48 no trivial lib in either case? 16:11:17 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 16:11:42 -!- naiv_ [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-284-202.w83-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:12:24 joachifm [~joachifm@ulrik.uio.no] has joined #lisp 16:12:28 tomekd789 [tomekd789@hbm66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:17:55 meh just use (defun small-random-number () and #+sbcl: (get-bytes-consed) #+whatever and then (get-internal-run-time) as default for everything else that you don't have specific thing for 16:18:18 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002130088196.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:18:19 then initialize random state from xoring them 16:18:30 reinit every 30 minutes if you paranoid 16:19:02 the difference in (get-internal-run-time) or bytes consed should be enough between similar processes 16:19:29 maxm: same program, started twice, same inputs => same number of bytes consed. 16:19:33 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-135-106.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:20:14 H4ns: well I thought about you doing it 1 time when it was called, not at load time 16:21:18 -!- metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21:25 ie (defvar *initial-random-state*) (defun ensure-initial-random-state () (unless (or (boundp '*initial-random-state*) (< (* 60 30) (get-universal-time) *last-reinit-time*)) ... do the needful, remember time we did it ...)) 16:22:29 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-31-148.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:23:07 harish [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 16:24:43 maxm: (defvar *my-random-state* (make-random-state t)) 16:25:18 pjb: the way I was reading scrollback discussion, if you start 2 processes in same second, they would get seeded with same number 16:25:30 Not with (make-random-state t). 16:26:05 And while the rest of each process may need to have a common seed, your library must not use it! 16:26:18 uh, (make-random-state t) is the right thing to use 16:26:24 pjb wins again 16:26:26 It must use its own random state initialized according to the library needs, in this case (make-random-state t). 16:26:31 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-384704.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:27:00 *maxm* looks at sbcl implementation and it does the right thing anyway by using /dev/urandom 16:29:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:30:08 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:33:24 the saga continues: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129090#15 16:35:01 you don't need to call translate-logical-pathname, it's done by open. 16:35:18 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@178-55-224-46.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:35:19 nikodemus` [~nikodemus@188-67-198-103.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:36:00 pjb: (pathname stream) returns the untranslated pathname on sbcl 16:36:21 That's good. 16:36:27 That's what we want. 16:37:12 that may be what you want, i want a translated pathname really 16:37:15 Your call to remove-from-plist has wrong arguments. 16:37:23 Then document it! 16:37:39 pjb: just read the docstring :D 16:38:32 :-) ok I lose. 16:38:39 phew 16:38:46 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.42.170] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.95.1] 16:38:52 this logical-pathname-translations thing is hairy 16:39:25 it requires an expert to tell what is hairy about it. i'm all ears. 16:39:58 its documentation does not help understanding what it's good for and why I would use that 16:40:02 -!- nikodemus` [~nikodemus@188-67-198-103.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:40:08 -!- hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: now you have two problems.] 16:41:30 dim: that allows your program to use portable literal pathname, instead of using constantly make-pathname, defering the mapping of those portable literal pathnames to real pathnames to a later, run-time configuration, possibly provided by the user. 16:41:37 dim: cf. load-logical-pathname-translations 16:41:38 but well I'm trying to decipher the bulk-copy.lisp behavior, it's sending an empty query that's why it gets the I message back it's not ready to receive 16:42:03 why copy-query-csv-mode is returning an empty query... (nil from the backtrace), I'm trying to understand 16:42:32 dim: i've not written that code, so i can't comment. 16:42:54 yes, sure, I might ask more specific questions 16:43:00 I'm discovering CLOS too here :) 16:43:13 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.42.170] has joined #lisp 16:44:02 *Xach* now needs a connection-killing (via RST) proxy 16:44:23 tcp or some higher level protocol? 16:45:09 I am testing some HTTP code that can be restarted on network errors, and I need some reliable network errors. 16:45:31 haproxy has a forceclose option that you could maybe find interesting here 16:45:41 or unreliable network success? 16:45:57 nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs78186070.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:46:02 stassats: predictable failure is the need 16:46:12 it forcibly close the connection between the proxy and the server as soon as the server is done, even if the client is still receiving the content 16:47:04 does not look like it in fact 16:47:56 dtw [~dtw@dsl-roibrasgw1-fe84fb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:48:04 -!- dtw [~dtw@dsl-roibrasgw1-fe84fb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Changing host] 16:48:04 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 16:52:58 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:53:28 Xach: there's a program called tcpkill 16:53:46 Xach: it tries to inject RST packets into tcp flows based on a tcpdump filter 16:54:00 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 16:54:08 tcr1: thanks, i'll take a look 16:54:21 Xach: or packit 16:55:57 thanks 16:56:08 *maxm* digs his hd for old nuke.c but probably got lost in the crash before I had raid 16:56:25 plus linux changed to randomize tcp window seq numbers or whatever 16:57:28 -!- nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs78186070.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:58:09 pjb: what's up with duplicate rdp stuff in com.informatimago? 17:00:46 Xach: there's an old simplier proof of concept version in small-cl-pgms. I'll remove the asd files from it. 17:02:07 nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 17:04:40 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-400855.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:05:18 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:51 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-243-196-47.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 17:06:43 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-384704.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:07:02 bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 17:07:52 -!- vxqw [153567@smaragd.ifi.uio.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:34 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:11 -!- quasisan1 [~sanep@c-24-218-184-186.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:10:12 Xach: or even iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp -d a.b.c.d --dport 80 -j REJECT --reject-with tcp-reset 17:10:12 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:47 CampinSam [~Sam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:19:50 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:21:04 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:49 -!- kilon_alios is now known as kilon 17:23:16 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:27:36 morning 17:28:42 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:28:58 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:23 ebobby [~fms@50-0-172-141.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:33 e 17:30:38 -!- __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:33:45 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-171-160.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:11 quasisane [~sanep@c-24-218-184-186.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:50 Xach: the best way to add a package to quicklisp is openning a github issue isn't it ? 17:43:54 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host187-229-dynamic.3-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:23 behelit [~behelit@c213-89-59-224.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:46:32 __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:32 value CL-POSTGRES::|csv| is not of the expected type (MEMBER CL-POSTGRES::TEXT CL-POSTGRES::CSV). 17:46:40 ok found the culprit, H4ns 17:52:21 -!- skulls [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:24 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:55:03 mucker_ [~harsha@183.83.227.117] has joined #lisp 17:55:29 it seems I'm now having expected errors 17:55:48 well, I will need to see about that in more details, later 17:56:04 -!- nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:56:18 brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:05 -!- mucker_ [~harsha@183.83.227.117] has quit [Client Quit] 17:59:11 mucker_ [~harsha@183.83.227.117] has joined #lisp 17:59:26 naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-284-202.w83-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:59:31 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-160-22-104.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:59:44 -!- mucker_ [~harsha@183.83.227.117] has quit [Client Quit] 18:00:04 Bike [~Glossina@75-175-3-20.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:25 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:15 mucker_ [~harsha@183.83.227.117] has joined #lisp 18:01:25 -!- mucker_ [~harsha@183.83.227.117] has quit [Client Quit] 18:01:38 mucker [~harsha@183.83.227.117] has joined #lisp 18:01:40 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:02:01 nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs78186070.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:03:59 -!- antifuchs [foobar@care.boinkor.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:05:31 Is there a way to figure out what are the keys (primary and foreign) of a table with postmodern? 18:05:37 antifuchs [foobar@care.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:14 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-114-149.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 18:11:02 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-120-173.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:56 The_third_bug [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:21 -!- mucker [~harsha@183.83.227.117] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:16:36 mucker [~harsha@183.83.227.117] has joined #lisp 18:18:49 -!- The_third_bug [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:19:24 The_third_bug [~The_third@LNeuilly-152-21-27-127.w193-253.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:19:49 Posterdati [~tapioca@host187-229-dynamic.3-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:21:49 hi 18:23:35 daimrod: you need to query some service tables 18:23:48 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:25:16 -!- mucker [~harsha@183.83.227.117] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:25:36 I'm using the official rt kernel on debian wheezy, mmmmh latency seems a bit reduced 18:28:10 mucker [~harsha@183.83.227.117] has joined #lisp 18:28:51 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-141-69.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:29:39 Farzad` [~farzadbek@46.225.102.107] has joined #lisp 18:30:10 alvis`` [~user@tx-184-6-180-2.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:12 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:30:23 -!- tdubellz [~tdubellz@freenode/staff/tdubellz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30:32 beetbot_ [~dxq@m5md.x.rootbsd.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:41 Vivitron` [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:34 ``Erik_ [~erik@pool-108-3-159-149.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:37 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 18:32:52 sjl_ [~sjl@li136-50.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 18:32:59 enn [~eli@codeanddata.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:09 -!- brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:33:19 tr-808_ [brambles@79.133.200.49] has joined #lisp 18:33:44 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 18:34:27 hiredman_ [~hiredman@ip67-152-53-125.z53-152-67.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:54 Zemyla_ [~zemyla@ec2-50-19-77-190.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 18:34:59 -!- tomekd789 [tomekd789@hbm66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Wychodzi] 18:35:22 FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has joined #lisp 18:35:25 renard_: correct 18:35:26 -!- __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:35:29 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:35:52 araujo_ [~araujo@190.38.61.1] has joined #lisp 18:35:57 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:36:04 _death [void@flash.ignite.lol.vc] has joined #lisp 18:36:08 renard_: yes 18:36:24 _main_ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:50 Xach: You know how newbies tend to put #'ql:quickload in files to load dependencies instead of properly making an ASDF definition? What about throwing a STYLE-WARNING when quickload is detected in a file?... 18:36:56 Perhaps something like: (define-compiler-macro quickload (&whole whole &rest args) (declare (ignore args)) (when *compile-file-pathname* (warn "~S is not intended to be used in files to declare dependencies.~%It's recommended to make an ASDF system instead." 'ql:quickload)) whole) 18:37:07 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 18:37:18 And perhaps pointing to an ASDF tutorial in the warning or something. 18:37:32 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@182.Red-88-7-133.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 18:37:40 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:37:53 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-174-096-171-160.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.102.107] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.14.123] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-141-69.netcologne.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- hiredman [~hiredman@ip67-152-53-125.z53-152-67.customer.algx.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- alvis` [~user@tx-184-6-180-2.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- beetbot [~dxq@m5md.x.rootbsd.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- ``Erik [~erik@pool-108-3-159-149.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- Zemyla [~zemyla@ec2-50-19-77-190.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- adeht [void@flash.ignite.lol.vc] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- enn_ [~eli@codeanddata.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:53 -!- sjl [~sjl@li136-50.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:37:59 -!- mucker [~harsha@183.83.227.117] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:38:13 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 18:38:15 mucker [~harsha@183.83.227.117] has joined #lisp 18:38:15 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:38:33 -!- mucker [~harsha@183.83.227.117] has quit [Client Quit] 18:38:42 Radium [~carbon@117.203.14.123] has joined #lisp 18:38:48 peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:50 what about non-newbies? 18:38:51 mucker [~harsha@183.83.227.117] has joined #lisp 18:38:57 i wouldn't be happy about such a warning 18:39:29 stassats`: There could be an option to disable that globally... You use quickload in files? 18:39:36 -!- _main_ is now known as __main__ 18:39:50 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 18:39:52 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5091D014.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:39:54 Hexstream: I'd rather solve it by writing how I like to develop stuff and suggest others do the same. 18:40:07 i don't use quicklisp, but i do use asdf:load-system in files 18:40:11 which is basically the same 18:40:18 One option would be to have a keyword argument to quickload that would disable the warning for that call... 18:40:19 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 18:40:31 -!- FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:40:53 -!- FACEFOX-DOT-COM [~gfdffdfd@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:42:16 -!- machine2 [~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:42:44 perhaps quicklisp should ask during installation "are you a newbie, y-or-n-p" 18:43:11 That could be an idea! 18:43:19 peterhil` [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 18:43:31 machine2 [~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:46 it could give more insulting error messages to newbies, too 18:43:51 quicklisp-newbie-helper 18:44:06 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@182.Red-88-7-133.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:16 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 18:44:19 Hexstream: There's no defsystem involved in a single-file Lisp script. 18:45:17 *Xach* does not write single-file lisp scripts 18:45:36 FACEFOX-DOT-COM [~gfdffdfd@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:36 Ok, I don't really do that kind of thing. A global option to disable this warning would still work. 18:45:46 Xach: good for you, it's a pain :-( 18:46:32 tcr1: you should probably know that there is another regular user who uses "tcr" as a nickname, you might want to use something else to avoid confusion 18:46:38 well, formerly regular :( 18:46:55 still, someday he might come back, best not to cause confusion and false hope 18:47:18 *Xach* goes to another buffer to cry 18:48:11 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 18:50:15 I heard he's writing c++ these days along his colleagues. Not worth a tear, man. 18:50:22 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:52:55 FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:17 snearch [~snearch@f053000185.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:55:58 arrdem [~arrdem@resnet-46-169.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 18:56:30 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has joined #lisp 18:57:02 -!- Farzad` [~farzadbek@46.225.102.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:00:32 Xach: I pushed updates to my asd, removed the asd from small-cl-pgms/rdp, and updated the :description and :license, added some :long-description ;maintainer, etc, and copyright year. 19:00:43 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:18 stassats`: I have code for that: http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=public/bin&h=a60ceb5246fc85211f97b26f416aa5ecb3e1048c&hb=4e35b52b9bb8e0a50d4dbfda2d3138e0e2bef849&f=insulte 19:01:43 perhaps I should include it in my library with a .asd ? 19:01:52 Is there a popular demand? 19:01:57 Espèce de sajou enragé ! 19:01:57 19:02:01 -!- mucker [~harsha@183.83.227.117] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:02:12 Patagon analphabète ! Espèce de flibustier analphabète ! Bande de sauvage mégalomane ! 19:02:15 mucker [~harsha@183.83.227.117] has joined #lisp 19:02:54 upper case, it burns 19:03:18 You're exagerating, for one single form that has been copy-pasted in uppercase! 19:05:50 -!- bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 19:06:05 -!- foocraft_ is now known as foocraft 19:10:03 -!- The_third_bug [~The_third@LNeuilly-152-21-27-127.w193-253.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:10:54 The_third_bug [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:16 and the name would be ToxicLisp 19:17:00 and people would know upfront that it's toxic and unfriendly, and they wouldn't feel the need to complain about it in blogs and hackernews 19:18:42 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA3865C.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:19:12 zuchel [~marcin@178-36-81-152.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 19:20:49 -!- zuchel [~marcin@178-36-81-152.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 19:21:21 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:22:55 or Snuggle Lisp 19:23:01 to totally mess with expectations 19:24:44 ikki [~ikki@189.247.202.179] has joined #lisp 19:27:25 That said, Captain Haddock's insults are not profanities. 19:28:02 *Xach* has lost context entirely 19:28:25 nixfreak [~nix@mn-10k-dhcp1-5344.dsl.hickorytech.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:26 Xach: my insult script above generates Captain Haddock's style insults. 19:29:16 Espèce de sapajou enragé = Kind of rabid monkey ; it's not a profanity. 19:29:49 It should be SPL  Social Problems (of) Lisp 19:30:04 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:31:33 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:32:52 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.202.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:35:17 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-048.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 19:35:32 sacred profane lisp 19:42:40 rtaylor [~rtaylor@69.172.160.67] has joined #lisp 19:42:49 -!- rtaylor [~rtaylor@69.172.160.67] has quit [Client Quit] 19:44:11 stassats`: do you have some links? I didn't find anything related to service tables. 19:47:25 -!- mucker [~harsha@183.83.227.117] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:47:40 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:49:06 nvm, I think I've found it. (pg_*) 19:50:21 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c37cf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 hi 19:55:33 -!- ainm [~ainm@238.Red-83-33-83.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:56:13 -!- ebobby [~fms@50-0-172-141.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:57:38 -!- nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs78186070.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:58:29 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:58:58 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 20:00:38 noob question what are the double parentheses for ? 20:01:17 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:01:26 There's no double parentheses in lisp. 20:01:42 nixfreak: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6ec4dab4a8d57f6e 20:01:51 at the begining of a line 20:02:06 Even at the beginning of a line. 20:02:30 There may be two parentheses, but there is no such thing as a double parentheses. 20:02:45 (at last, until you're not a newbie anymore and can write a reader macro). 20:03:01 s/last/least\ 20:03:22 nixfreak: can you give an example of that double parenthesis? 20:03:34 ok 20:03:55 pjb: hi 20:03:59 flip214: hi 20:04:02 hi 20:04:06 ((if (> X 10) * +) X Y) 20:04:13 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has quit [Quit: Out of this 3D] 20:04:22 See, no double parentheses. 20:04:30 Just two parentheses. 20:04:44 ok I meant 2 parentheses 20:04:51 nixfreak: that is scheme 20:05:00 nixfreak: not common lisp 20:05:05 actually its newLisp 20:05:08 nixfreak: parenthesis construct lists, it's just a list with a list inside it 20:05:24 ok that makes sense 20:05:24 nixfreak: anyway, in this case the expression in call position computes the operator 20:05:26 nixfreak: and when you try to evaluate it, it won't be a valid common lisp code 20:05:40 nixfreak: because this channel is about Common Lisp 20:05:50 nixfreak: http://paste.lisp.org/+2RMC 20:05:53 and newLisp is unwelcome here 20:06:03 oh i didn't know that sorry 20:06:04 -!- hiredman_ is now known as hiredman 20:06:15 newLisp is retarted (in the literal, time-bound sense). 20:06:26 nixfreak: but still check my paste. 20:06:44 There are no parentheses in lisp. 20:07:08 yeah but its pretty awesome for networking and a scripting language 20:07:11 Quaydon [~aaaaaaa@cpe-071-068-114-143.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:07:18 nixfreak: CL is more awesome! 20:07:26 nixfreak: I use clisp for all my scripts. 20:07:35 clisp is awesome for networking too. 20:07:41 ainm [~ainm@238.Red-83-33-83.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:46 -!- two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:07:54 can clisp start a http daemon with 1 line command 20:08:22 Yes. 20:08:25 There are no spoons.. I mean parentheses. It is not parentheses that you write, only yourself. Ommmmm. ;) 20:08:35 nice lol 20:09:28 oiig_ [oiig_@112.161.134.227] has joined #lisp 20:09:30 i like the paste pjb pretty cool how you mapped that out 20:09:55 so it arc a retarted lisp also ? 20:10:01 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-319463.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:10:17 _root_ [~Scalable@li252-14.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:22 nixfreak: what? newLisp can't do that with 1 line command? 20:10:39 I just typed; (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:draw-list ' ((if (> X 10) * +) X Y) :title "((if (> X 10) * +) X Y)") at my CL REPL. 20:11:06 nixfreak: the only lisp the discussions about which are welcome here is Common Lisp 20:11:08 not sure haven't tried 20:11:13 ok 20:11:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:11:38 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-123.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:13:01 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-400855.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 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has joined #lisp 20:22:14 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:22:52 Oddity [~chatzilla@d207-216-60-199.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:08 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-158-87.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:46 -!- Oddity [~chatzilla@d207-216-60-199.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:23:46 Oddity [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 20:24:39 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:25:42 -!- arrdem [~arrdem@resnet-46-169.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:25:52 [SLB] [~casper@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 20:26:01 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-236-133.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:16 pjb: i finished reading the skeptical light table essay. seems dead on about the "will it scale" question 20:26:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-123.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:26:36 I agree. 20:26:46 -!- MoALTz 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seconds] 20:49:08 aerique_ [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:49:15 *maxm* feels left out, I missed whole light table whatever debate 20:49:16 nitro_idiot_ [~nitro_idi@www31335u.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:49:18 DrForr_ [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:25 froggey_ [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 20:49:31 who do I need to follow or what aggregator to read to get this stuff 20:49:33 tessier_ [~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #lisp 20:49:36 kaol_ [kaol@piperka.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:45 except reddit which I block, coz its like catnip :-) 20:49:48 wccoder_ [~wccoder@S01060026f3c6bad7.no.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:54 timb_ [~tim@bacon2.burri.to] has joined #lisp 20:50:00 CampinSa1 [~Sam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:06 Zemyla_ [~zemyla@ec2-50-19-77-190.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:32 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-026.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:50:47 -!- toekutr 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[~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:54:41 -!- Zzompp [~zzompp@host-94-101-5-197.igua.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:54:41 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:54:41 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@www31335u.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:54:41 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:54:41 -!- timb [~tim@bacon2.burri.to] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:54:42 -!- _death` is now known as _death 20:54:42 -!- _main_ is now known as __main__ 20:54:51 Radium [~carbon@117.203.14.123] has joined #lisp 20:55:42 hackernews 20:55:58 you can also learn how bad common lisp community is there 20:56:00 when did that appeared 20:56:05 -!- karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:33 -!- FACEFOX-DOT-COM [~gfdffdfd@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:58:02 which site is that, thehackernews.com? 20:58:10 coz just hackernews.com says its closed 20:58:22 you don't know about hacker news? impressive 20:58:39 -!- FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:58:55 *maxm* used to get all his news from reddit mostly, until I blocked it for productivity reasons 21:00:19 I'd have gone for stupidity reason first. 21:00:42 -!- CampinSa1 is now known as CampinSam 21:01:02 pkhuong: you can quickly get good "general mood" stuff, still required only subscribing to specific subreddits 21:01:12 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:01:17 -!- froggey_ is now known as froggey 21:01:17 yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has joined #lisp 21:02:03 FACEFOX-DOT-COM [~gfdffdfd@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:08 ie a wave of "thinking of opening a futures account to short euro" questions in r/investing, was a good social indicator of euro bottom 21:02:28 maxm: http://news.ycombinator.com/ 21:02:34 maxm: and it's written in Arc! 21:02:57 it has reddit-like productivity implications, though 21:03:02 stassats: yea found it.. just assumed it was blog post about it, tohught graham had enough money for domain name 21:03:51 it started out with ycombinator posters and is still used to promote ycombinator, so I think the domain name is a feature 21:03:54 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-026.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:03:54 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:04:25 i don't know, it's boring most of the time 21:04:47 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 21:05:15 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@182.Red-88-7-133.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 21:05:16 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-026.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 21:05:20 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:06:20 karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:06:55 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177960550.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:07:11 gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has joined #lisp 21:07:32 FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:31 -!- kilon_alios is now known as kilon 21:08:50 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:09:41 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177960550.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:09:54 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 21:13:18 ok, after a first glance hacker news is pretty much a feed of reddit with around 2-3 weeks delay 21:13:38 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-319463.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:05 *maxm* still browses reddit but only from my phone while in a bathroom on on a train or such, its just main box where its 127.0.0.1'ed 21:14:22 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:15:08 are you running reddit from your desktop? 21:16:00 stassats: no, I put www.reddit.com into /etc/hosts as lame way of getting out of habit of browsing it every time I take a break 21:16:39 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-115-160.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:03 pnq [~nick@AC81081A.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:26 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-026.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:18:54 (just kidding) 21:20:27 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:20:34 -!- hagish [~hagish@p57BCF88D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:20:49 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177960550.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:23:04 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:25:25 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177960550.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:25:32 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053000185.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:25:36 isismelting [~jo@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:58 pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 21:26:14 -!- isismelting [~jo@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 21:27:24 isismelting [~jo@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:05 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-60-72.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 21:31:28 vervic [~vervic@91-114-187-99.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:33:30 -!- flipout [~user@75-175-124-15.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:32 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:34:32 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:35:49 Yay for zsort! 21:36:12 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 21:36:53 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.181.9] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 21:44:52 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m83-185-142-102.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:44:58 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has joined #lisp 21:46:34 hagish [~hagish@p57BCF88D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:21 -!- Kron [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:50:51 -!- antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:50:55 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:08 pjb: do you think that using logical pathnames for temporary files is a good idea? i'm a bit unsure. i like them, but the restrictions on the names could be bothersome. 21:51:29 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c37cf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:52:22 brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:22 pjb: using them in the (standalone) library would kind of promote them. i'm pretty sure that some people will hate the decision, though. 21:53:33 H4ns: In general I like logical pathnames. I think it's a good idea to use them to provide a conforming API. 21:54:03 pjb: i'm going to refer to cltl2 (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/html/cltl/clm/node208.html#SECTION002715000000000000000) in the documentation for information on logical pathnames. or do you have a better link? 21:54:10 the spec is not quite helpful 21:54:23 H4ns: you could easily take just a pathname, and use pathname-name to get a prefix and suffix. Yo could modify the #\X in the pathname-name. 21:54:40 Therefore the user could pass a logical pathname as well as a physical pathname. 21:54:50 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.181.9] has joined #lisp 21:54:59 You'd just create a new similar pathname with (make-pathname :name new-name :defaults old-pathname). 21:55:16 that is a good suggestion, thanks 21:55:17 infiniteone [~infiniteo@c-76-126-91-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:52 err, with :case :common and an uppercase new-name in case it's a logical pathname. 21:56:29 pjb: you'll get to review the stuff anyway. 21:56:52 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:06 so, the problem with copy in postmodern is about symbols and interning 21:57:54 dim: mhh, you're dealing with stuff that has been written for allegro cl's "modern" mode :( 21:58:10 :format (ecase format 21:58:10 (:text (intern "TEXT" #.*package*)) 21:58:10 (:csv (intern "CSV" #.*package*))) 21:58:10 :delimiter delimiter 21:58:18 I'm doing that in the open-copier function 21:58:26 in the make-instance call 21:58:40 it was done in 2 locations instead 21:58:45 use '#:text instead of "TEXT" 21:59:08 or even better, use (intern (string format) #.*package*) 21:59:38 what about checking it's either 'text or 'csv, not another value? 22:00:02 oh, wait, sure. 22:00:32 (ecase format ((:text :csv:) (find-symbol format #.*package*))) 22:00:40 then we have to be able to compare it again to text or csv symbols in the source code, is some case or ecase constructs, hence the intern dance 22:01:35 dim: i'm only concerned about the case of the symbols at the moment. not sure about the context. 22:01:54 *madnificent* uses the name of symbols to get the right casing 22:02:30 madnificent: (string format) is what i meant to write above :/ 22:04:21 yeah, that'd work nice 22:07:00 -!- infiniteone [~infiniteo@c-76-126-91-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobiuWpdkd&fin2qu3R] 22:09:13 -!- brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:10:08 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.181.9] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 22:11:00 brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:34 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:15:59 -!- oiig [oiig_@112.161.134.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:16:19 -!- hagish [~hagish@p57BCF88D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:18:12 daniel___ [~daniel@p5B3269CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:54 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:20:46 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082B8BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:21:07 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:21:52 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-hudd6-0-0-cust741.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:22:51 is there a lib that returns current compilation policy portably? only thing I found is "defun compiler-policy" swank-sbcl.lisp 22:23:18 *maxm* is actually making his ffi stuff be smart and load either debug or release version of c++ side depending if speed > debug 22:23:54 Let the user set it. You should not need to touch it! And library should absolutely not contain any declaim optimize! 22:24:12 thats where that index of quicklisp systems could have been handy, but the guys's website is down 22:24:20 -!- araujo_ [~araujo@190.38.61.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:24:35 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 22:24:53 jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 22:25:09 pjb: user will set it, but I want the ffi stuff to load the c++ lib that correponds to it.. ie with (speed 3) it will load -O6 version of c++ lib, but with (debug 3) (speed 1) it will load -O0 version of c++ lib 22:25:40 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:25:55 the hell is -O6? 22:25:58 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:26:12 pjb: why shouldn't libraries contain optimization notes? 22:26:16 anyway /me slaps himself for going into dicking around mode, and just hardcodes it for SBCL for now with error for #-sbcl 22:26:30 seangrov` [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:39 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:30:20 Ralith: its a g++ optimization flag, don't know if it actually does anything nowadays comparing to -O2, but it used to in gcc 3.x days 22:32:53 "man gcc" no longer has it.. /me has a TODO item to investigate all new gcc 4.x stuff like profile guided optimizations and stuff 22:33:04 maxm: gcc only goes to O3 22:33:32 and O2 is most of the time a better choice 22:33:53 (unless you know your code like MPlayer of yore) 22:41:31 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:43:24 -!- Oladon [~Oladon@c-67-176-80-90.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:44:13 klltkr [~klltkr@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:44:41 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 22:45:39 two- [~textual@67.23.193.215] has joined #lisp 22:46:18 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-24-218-184-186.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:46:24 quasisane [~sanep@c-24-218-184-186.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:36 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:23 -!- vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtech.com.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:52:47 -!- isismelting [~jo@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:54:31 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:54:44 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:35 pun [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 22:57:03 Kron [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has joined #lisp 22:57:59 easytiger [~user@184.75.242.114] has joined #lisp 22:58:16 pjb: https://github.com/hanshuebner/temporary-file/blob/master/temporary-file.lisp 22:58:26 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:00:44 -!- brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:01:49 H4ns: could it be wise to default to /tmp and throw a warning when we don't know the implementation of getenv? or would it be assuming too much? 23:02:52 it looks really nice btw 23:03:10 dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:58 madnificent: not sure about the default - i think the list in getenv is pretty complete, and i'd like to avoid duplicating the compiler conditionals once more. 23:04:25 H4ns: actually, i'm suggesting that getenv or directory-from-environment should default to false (and perhaps warn) when getenv isn't implemented, instead of erroring. 23:04:46 well, and "looks really nice", it is mostly boilerplate now :) 23:05:21 but it's well thought out boilerplate! 23:05:28 would it not be better to error out on an unknown platform, assuming that "/tmp/" might not actually be the right path? 23:05:29 minion: chant! 23:05:29 MORE AWESOME 23:05:49 -!- tessier_ [~treed@216.105.40.125] has quit [Changing host] 23:05:49 tessier_ [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 23:05:53 like, say, when run on genera, /tmp/ would certainly not do any good as a default 23:06:09 likewise on mcl for macos 9 or so 23:06:12 H4ns: then why does *default-temporary-directory* default to #p"/tmp/" for any non-windows system? 23:06:31 fair question 23:06:54 i'm not sure about #+windows either. that is more like a place holder for now 23:07:05 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:08:33 wow this temo file question has taken a strange form 23:08:34 huangjs [~user@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 23:08:39 this is going way past the normal development of a w-t-f system, but perhaps it's smart to use #+linux and #+windows (i don't know what mac is, nor what it's value should be). 23:08:40 ideally, it should be #+windows and #+unixish and #-(or windows unixish) (error "don't know where to place temporary files" 23:08:59 that sounds sane 23:09:30 dim: have you read what has been discussed on the alexandria mailing list? welcome to common lisp, man! :) 23:09:35 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:09:47 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 23:10:14 I haven't. archives? 23:10:14 yes, everything needs to be perfect 23:10:40 dim: http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/alexandria-devel/ 23:11:31 in terms of perfection, i'd say drop the or in *d-t-d* or let getenv return nil on unsupported platforms. the combination of both feels off to me. i see the difference there though, so i can imagine others not aggreeing 23:11:43 after a really shitty day, :temporary-file makes me a bit happier 23:13:00 madnificent: it would be proper to warn if no default for the TEMPORARY-FILE logical pathname host can be established, but continue. 23:13:54 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:14:42 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.42.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:14:49 since it's a temporary file, why isn't it being deleted in the with-.. macro? 23:14:50 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.97.165] has joined #lisp 23:14:59 after the body 23:15:15 because it may be needed afterwards 23:15:21 H4ns: are you talking about the initialization of *default-temporary-directory* warning, #'directory-from-environment warning, or #'getenv warning? 23:15:28 kennyd: i might add a :keep keyword argument. 23:16:07 *madnificent* would like that addition (and would assume it to default to nil, others may disagree) 23:16:39 I would like :keep keyword with it defaulting to nil too 23:17:22 H4ns: hidden dependencies are a bad idea 23:17:33 madnificent: with what rationale? 23:17:50 fe[nl]ix: what do you mean? 23:18:05 the #+bordeaux-threads code 23:18:18 fe[nl]ix: hrm. alternatives? 23:18:20 stassats`: having :keep default to nil? 23:18:23 i don't know why would anyone create a temporary file and then delete it, without passing it to another program or something afterwards 23:18:27 madnificent: yes 23:18:33 a straight dependency on b-t 23:18:55 stassats`: back in the day, one would use a temporary file to deal with data larger than main memory. 23:18:58 stassats`: because you're using a temporary file, the name implies it will exist only momentarily. i'd assume the code which uses the file to be ran in the with-open-file block. 23:19:12 H4ns: right, my /tmp is in memory! 23:19:17 fe[nl]ix: i would like to avoid that because there is no reason why this code can't be used on non-bt platforms. 23:19:22 pjb: the i just read through the HN comments on that take-apart of light table, and was really disappointed 23:19:46 madnificent: the name implies that it opens a temporary file and then closes 23:19:52 it's not named with-temporary-file 23:20:22 Invalid lambda list (NIL &BODY) 23:20:22 DataLinkDroid [~David@1.129.148.46] has joined #lisp 23:20:31 dim: ? 23:20:33 looks invalid to me 23:20:35 CCL chokes on (defmacro with-file-name-lock-held (() &body body), it seems 23:21:00 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:21:08 maxm: I see no mention of -O6 in the gcc manpages. 23:21:13 dim: are you sure? 23:21:40 0: (CCL::PARSE-MACRO-INTERNAL TEMPORARY-FILE::WITH-FILE-NAME-LOCK-HELD (NIL &BODY) ((LIST* 'PROGN TEMPORARY-FILE::BODY)) # NIL) 23:21:54 H4ns: that's going to break easily. example: proj.asd has :depends-on (:bordeaux-threads :temporary-file :other-proj). temporary-file gets compiled with #+bordeaux-threads. 23:21:58 dim: must be something else. this is not ready to use anyway. 23:22:04 dim: that doesn't look like the code you showed us 23:22:41 fe[nl]ix: does bordeaux-threads compile on non-threaded lisps? 23:22:41 oh that might be the #-bordeaux-threads version 23:22:46 (defmacro with-file-name-lock-held (() &body) `(progn ,@body)) 23:22:47 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-103.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:51 open implies you'll get a stream, not a path. aside from how i assume it will be used, i understand your reasoning. though still i think it ould be much handier. furthermore, making it :keep default to t accidentally will lead to the generation of a shitload of files, erroring out when the service has been running for quite a while. 23:22:51 H4ns: then the author removes the dependency on b-t or maybe reorders the deplist, now when loading proj, an error will be signaled during the load of temporary-file because "package BORDEAUX-THREADS does not exist" 23:23:19 H4ns: yes, locks are no-ops and make-thread signals an error 23:23:22 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 23:23:30 Good morning/afternoon/evening, everyone 23:23:32 madnificent: that's why you set :keep to nil when you need it 23:23:34 fe[nl]ix: okay, then i'm good to go. thanks! 23:24:06 it's easier to fuck up by deleting what doesn't need to be deleted, than by creating too much 23:24:06 brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:22 H4ns: in this case you're lucky. in general, it's a bad idea to have that kind of hidden dependencies 23:24:23 stassats`: no, if you have to set keep to nil, you will discover you did it wrong when the original dev is long gone. if the file has been deleted immediately, you'll notice it has been when you are using the w-o-t-f 23:24:26 -!- n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@90.150.174.164] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 23:24:54 fe[nl]ix: no, i mean i'll just have the straight dependency like you suggested. 23:25:16 ok 23:25:34 i didn't get your first sentence 23:26:06 what? 23:26:19 you can delete a non-deleted file, you can't do the reverse with a deleted file 23:26:48 stassats`: but you can still set :keep to t, indicating that you know you will have to remove it manually later on. 23:27:55 madnificent: while i tend to agree with you, what would be a use case for w-o-t-f where the file would _not_ be needed afterwards? 23:27:59 if you're not thinking about it, you'll create a shitload of files (which is an ass for people not boasting 10TB of ram memory in which they can host /tmp/, like you do) 23:28:40 -!- brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:28:41 H4ns: we use cl-fann, for instance. that takes it's data in a file, reads it, and creates an in-memory structure from it. once the structure has been built, the file isn't needed anymore. 23:28:41 madnificent: while i can easily come up with examples where i would like to keep the file, i have more trouble imagining where i don't want to keep them. 23:28:44 Grrr. I want to hack SOMETHING, I just don't know WHAT. 23:29:08 mmm, IU='m back to "TEMPORARY-FILES" is not a defined logical host 23:29:16 you write a script which data mines a db for suspected murderers, and it requires two days to run, you put the results into a temporary file, you haven't used wotf before, and you're hasty, because if you don't catch the murderer, he will strike again on next friday night and today is wednesday 23:29:26 and boom, with-open-temporary-file deletes the file! 23:29:37 dim: as i said, not ready for use yet. 23:29:38 stassats`: using w-o-t-f for that wouldn't be very smart ;-) 23:29:41 now you have another victim! 23:29:53 -!- Vivitron` [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:30:04 H4ns: creating, opening an deleting a temporary file is a common idiom when the creator can pass a file descriptor to the other processes that need to use that file 23:30:38 madnificent: didn't have time to think it through! 23:30:48 fe[nl]ix: while i agree that this is possible, passing a file name is much more common. 23:31:10 H4ns: the same holds if you need to pass a file name 23:31:10 two macros maybe? 23:31:26 w-o-t-f and w-t-f ? 23:31:34 madnificent: well, if your script creates a file, and you don't need it, you will see it immediately, won't you? 23:31:42 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81081A.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:31:58 so, i don't see how that's a problem 23:32:04 dim: hehe. you've shaken the common lisp world! 23:32:17 brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:22 oops sorry, didn't mean to awake you :) 23:32:31 and you can't bring the temporary file back if it's deleted, unless you can summon angels or something 23:32:43 but then, you wouldn't need to be writing code in the first place 23:33:26 stassats`: how will i see it? it is there... i assume it is not. i'm not checking /tmp for everything i do. if it would default to nil, i'd notice that the application doesn't work. i'd check the folder and discover that the file isn't there. see the :keep option in there and know that i'd have to use that. 23:33:30 H4ns: (eval-when (:compile :load :execute) 23:33:41 you did miss :compile, maybe on purpose 23:33:49 with that change I can quicklod 23:33:54 quickload even 23:34:07 https://github.com/hanshuebner/temporary-file/commit/ff6cc65aa2d33754f33d0d8732426e2c4b797bed 23:34:09 madnificent: you shouldn't be assuming anything then 23:34:32 reading documentation is not hard 23:34:37 dim: interesting. i'll need to investigate that. 23:34:54 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:35:09 stassats`: sensible defaults... if you don't assume anything, then you certainly wouldn't have an issue discovering that you need the :keep option. people like me do assume stuff and want it to be nil. 23:35:13 but if you don't read documentation, and you assumed it wasn't deleted, but it is, it's less painful to be wrong if :keep is t 23:35:40 eventually your disk will fill up and you will notice 23:35:42 keep and not keep are really two distinct use cases 23:36:51 when the file is kept, the pathname should be returned. that would be with-output-to-temporary-file, analogous to with-output-to-string 23:37:14 with-open-temporary-file should not keep the file, and return whatever the body returns 23:37:17 -!- __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:37:33 -!- brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:37:38 stassats`: filling up disk with open files that have no directory references? 23:38:04 p_l: i don't get what you said 23:38:18 _main_ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:32 heh. just stumbled into discussion, and I got reminded of a case in Unix where you have files that are still opened by an application taking space but not showing up 23:39:48 (was actually an interview question) 23:40:12 so we're answering an interview question here? 23:40:18 mmm, it's a rather complex one :) 23:41:03 dim: nah, something that can happen, and was just included as one of many things I got quizzed at Google, so I was reminded of it by this discussion 23:41:20 -!- _main_ is now known as __main__ 23:41:51 incf H4ns, build analogous to the standard 23:42:02 >_< 23:42:35 p_l: how can it happen? 23:43:00 madnificent: just delete a file that is still in use by some other application in *nix 23:43:04 what standard? the standard doesn't delete files, unless a non-local exit happens 23:43:08 thats kind of a lame unix inetrview question 23:43:12 google got easy 23:43:27 maxm: nah, the full thing was "deal with the problem with minimal downtime" 23:43:39 with more and more issues coming up as you resolved it 23:43:57 should be more something like if your forked a process, and then parent process exited, after that child process does getppid() what it will print 23:44:26 stassats`: w-o-t-t-f could be analogous to cl:w-o-t-s, and be implemented in the way you want it, w-o-t-f would then be for removing the file. 23:44:46 maxm: one question led me to doing memory surgery on a forkbomb to add garbage that would cause SIGILL 23:44:56 https://github.com/hanshuebner/temporary-file/blob/master/temporary-file.lisp 23:44:59 p_l: ah I love practical questions. what did you respond? lvextend, lsof -n then kill the pid? 23:45:06 that's it for today. 'nite. 23:45:27 goodnight H4ns 23:45:58 oh noes, long lines 23:46:04 pnathan1 [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 23:46:31 maxm: various, I was out of physical storage so I just found the offending application, first tried to make it reload (SIGHUP etc) and thus possibly reopen the files, finally finding the fd and closing it manually (through /proc//...) 23:47:20 the forkbomb... that was a funny one, because every time I fixed it I got a more insane case. So I exploited text segment sharing and had the forkbomb overwritten 23:48:11 mikos [~mikos@188-223-31-58.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:48:19 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:50:17 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 23:51:02 kpreid [~kpreid@Lark.price.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 23:52:59 -!- dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:54:11 p_l: (set-macro-character #\\ (constantly nil)) (set-macro-character #\| (constantly nil)) (setf *read-base* 36) 23:54:16 how do you recover? 23:54:37 stassats`: I start by LARTing the responsible party 23:55:11 (yes, that was included in my interview responses after hearing "someone else ran the forkbomb as root") 23:56:08 well, that's actually easy: (cl:setf *read-base* 10.) 23:56:27 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.14.123] has quit [] 23:56:27 -!- Quaydon [~aaaaaaa@cpe-071-068-114-143.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:57:59 alright, the same thing, but with (set-macro-character #\c (constantly nil)) 23:58:09 heh 23:59:45 well, that's easy too 23:59:46 hmm... Required module SWANK-IO-PACKAGE::SWANK-MEDIA was not provided 23:59:50 (multiple-value-setq (*read-base*) 10.)