00:00:11 heh 1/2 the time everyone complains the CycKB is filled with garbage 00:00:31 so now they get their wish... no prior data! 00:00:46 but a person can take opencyc published KBs and load them 00:00:51 with not too much effort 00:02:29 one can pretend 5 levels of KB tinykb->OpenCYC->ResearchCYC->FullCYC->SomeProjectCYC 00:02:35 *maxm* unfortunately has to decide not to look into it for now, since to really evaluate if its worth looking into, by itself will take a week or so 00:02:52 priorities/shmiorities 00:03:03 well much of what i am saying is to help promote LarKC here in ##lisp 00:03:34 dmiles_afk: you need some kind of a cleverbot like gimmick. 00:03:59 ie even a simple query interface, where it can be shown to infer non-trivial stuff, and give people "wow" 00:04:47 oh and not fair to expect Cyc to be AI (probly some of it's cycorp's fault) .. but instead just a empty sheell to write an AI in (the best!) 00:05:26 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-22-241.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:05:34 well they claimed to basically have all the "common sense" assertions already done, just plug in facts -> AI results 00:05:41 dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:43 but seems not so simple 00:06:24 -!- hiredman [~hiredman@ip67-152-53-125.z53-152-67.customer.algx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:06:27 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gone] 00:06:32 right .. Cyc needs a toploop (agent based demo) to actuyalyl maybe for once use those facts 00:07:12 their NL demos show off onmly what such a program might defer english it doesnt understand to some english query system 00:07:24 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:08:38 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:04 (if the program (ego-centric agent) really doesnt know anything about answering a question as a form of user-satification goal in its plan... send their query to this demo module) 00:09:08 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-186-40.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 00:09:48 (demo module at the URL you posted) 00:11:27 or tie meeting the "user-satification goal" as completed by calling to some lisp function that calls the demo code 00:12:18 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:13:40 way more of *that*type* of 'agent centered' programming needs to take place in Cyc.. but so many other things (new demo modules to be written) take its place 00:14:10 but yeah.. for 10 years now (i am guilty) i still have not completed the "wow" app 00:14:30 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gone] 00:15:27 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:55 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:15:55 -!- ainm [~ainm@111.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc))] 00:16:09 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:22 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:45 francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176341587.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:21:48 arrsim [~user@ppp118-209-64-7.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 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[~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:43:33 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:48:18 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-121-60.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 01:49:19 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-162-20.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:58:33 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:48 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:59:26 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:59:57 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:04 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:03:22 can anyone recommend a library for doing simple 2d graphics, something that can update incrementally as opposed to making an image and exporting it 02:05:52 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:25 Quadrescence: cairo? 02:07:44 hm, i guess it's worth a try... 02:11:21 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 02:12:12 hmm... use vecto, export itermedite steps to graphics, replace the image? 02:13:05 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:13:31 sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 02:13:55 p_l, I don't know how that process would work. Sounds tiresome. 02:14:25 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:14:28 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:43 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:21:54 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 02:22:08 Ralith_ [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:17 -!- Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.17.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:22:31 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:23:21 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 02:24:57 Quadrescence: well, you write vector graphi into a cavas, and now and then export the state into PNG which you display 02:25:48 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:26:02 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 02:28:16 antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has joined #lisp 02:29:30 -!- arrsim [~user@ppp118-209-64-7.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:29:37 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:29:50 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 02:30:09 arrsim [~user@ppp118-209-64-7.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:41 kanru`` [~user@118-168-71-68.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:51 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:39:36 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:39:58 -!- arrsim [~user@ppp118-209-64-7.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:41:06 meiji11 [60333c78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.51.60.120] has joined #lisp 02:42:45 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:45:37 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:46:30 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:47:55 arrsim [~user@ppp118-209-64-7.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:01 -!- antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:50:49 kornshell [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has joined #lisp 02:52:46 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-186-40.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:56:17 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483B725.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:58 teggi [~teggi@113.173.29.162] has joined #lisp 02:58:19 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p54839C13.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:00:08 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-223-108.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 03:08:36 -!- gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-arpggaeejowxpfbh] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:08:51 gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-qjovxihqbnmlxbxl] has joined #lisp 03:10:03 nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:19 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:22:43 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 03:23:59 -!- kanru`` [~user@118-168-71-68.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:26:20 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 03:31:53 ap03 [~ubuntunoo@nat0.staffs.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 03:32:07 i get the feelin` that Lisp is dead. 03:32:19 -!- ap03 [~ubuntunoo@nat0.staffs.ac.uk] has left #lisp 03:32:45 heh 03:33:26 386 people in the channel and lisp is dead? :) not the best pickup line i bet 03:35:06 Indeed 03:35:22 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:35:46 -!- dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:13 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:38:28 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:38:32 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002130088196.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 03:39:41 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 03:41:08 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 03:41:15 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:43:38 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:44:29 -!- seabot is now known as beetbot 03:48:10 p_l, when is the last time you NRECONCed something 03:49:19 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:50:20 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:50:37 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:50:43 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 03:51:55 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 03:52:00 Greetings lispers 03:52:17 Greetings ThomasH! 03:52:21 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 03:52:31 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 03:52:34 What would be an example of using something other than the null lexical environment with a macro? 03:52:38 Hey Bacteria 03:53:12 Bacteria: Did you ever see the audited version of some code you pasted a while ago? 03:53:35 Bacteria: To clarify, I audited the code and pasted on the same site. 03:53:51 :o I never saw it! 03:54:09 How did I miss that? 03:54:43 Bacteria: No big deal, I think you had left #lisp. I had some problems trying to annotate your paste, so maybe it never actually posted. 03:55:04 Ah damn 03:56:16 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:50 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:58:32 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.64.131] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:58:48 morlos [~morlos@cpe-98-154-126-164.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:58:51 lemoinem [~swoog@162-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:55 Can someone tell me what they might think "symcat" would mean if they saw it as a lisp function 04:00:02 concatenate symbols 04:00:03 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-80-108.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:00:14 good! 04:00:24 then that's a go for an API function 04:00:33 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:00:33 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-80-108.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:00:35 seems allright to me 04:00:47 kanru`` [~user@118-168-71-68.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:48 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:03:50 -!- CampinSam [~Sam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:05:43 Can anyone think of an example where a lexical environment other than the null lexical environment is used with a macro? 04:06:07 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@c-76-23-252-81.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 04:06:11 I think usually when the macro itself needs to call macroexpand. 04:06:40 *ThomasH* is trying to process that. 04:07:24 As in, the macro is doing some kind of walker, so it needs to macroexpand its subforms. If it so happens that the macro is used in say a macrolet, it needs the environment to fully macroexpand them. 04:07:36 ThomasH: implementers of setf-expansion users also 04:07:46 which is an example of what Bike said 04:07:50 I think cl-cont uses it that way, if you want a concrete example. 04:08:58 Bike: Thanks, I'll go look. I don't understand how to specify the lexical environment for a macro. Thanks S11001001 . 04:09:23 How to specify...? 04:10:26 Bike: Create an environment object to use instead of the null environment. 04:10:26 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:10:34 ThomasH: Oh, you can't do that. 04:10:44 -!- kornshell [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:10:52 you accept one from something else 04:11:03 check out macro lambda lists 04:11:14 Here, try this: (defmacro test (&environment env) (print env) nil) (test) (macrolet ((a () nil)) (test)) 04:11:29 That's what I'm reading about. 04:11:47 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.54.87] has joined #lisp 04:13:39 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:14:42 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:17:00 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-244.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:17:20 Trying things out on a few implementations. 04:18:54 ThomasH: I'm still not sure I understand what you're asking. You can't create reified environment objects, but you can make lexical environments in the usual ways, e.g. let, flet... 04:19:09 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:24:19 Bike: My question didn't make sense because I don't have a good grasp of how the macro interacts with the environment. 04:24:44 Bike: Your example was useful, but I'm trying to understand the details. 04:27:11 ThomasH: Macro functions don't interact with the lexical environments they're used from except for through env params, I don't think. 04:27:34 phadthai, a tougher one: CONSYM 04:27:38 what do you think? 04:28:33 hmm it resembles so much cons, that it makes me think of gensym :) 04:28:41 ThomasH: e.g., (defun kar (x) (car x)) (macrolet ((a () (kar '(1 2 3)))) (flet ((kar (x) (cdr x))) (a))) => 1 04:29:19 or of create-symbol 04:29:34 "construct symbol" is what I had in mind 04:29:44 construct a symbol from a bunch of weirdo bits and pieces 04:29:54 CL-USER> (qtl:consym "HELLO" 'world #\! "-" 1 2 3) 04:29:54 #:HELLOWORLD!-123 04:29:55 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 04:30:06 s/create-symbol/make-symbol/ 04:30:11 isn't that usually called "symbolicate"? 04:30:19 Bike, maybe! 04:30:33 Bike, my convention is actually NOUN-ify. :) 04:30:48 mapsym? heh 04:30:52 *Bike* shrugs 04:30:58 Bike: I think I understand a little better now. The environment variable is really only useful when relying on things like macroexpand, which is what I'm doing that prompted to try to understand it. 04:31:12 i hate choosing abbreviated names, but i am making an exception here because I don't like long names in macros 04:31:12 *prompted me* 04:31:27 ThomasH: Yeah, I don't think the environment parameter can really be used for anything but passing to functions that take it. 04:31:57 <|3b|> ThomasH: you can do some tricks with adding things to env with symbol-macrolet, then reading them out with macroexpand 04:31:59 Bike: Ok, thanks. 04:32:04 ThomasH: There were some proposals to allow you to query it for info, but they were rejected. Extensions sometimes do that, I think? 04:32:10 <|3b|> for example to pass parameters between levels of a set of related macros 04:32:19 |3b|: Example of this? 04:32:19 -!- nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:33:15 Say, anyone know if there's a gpg lib for common lisp? 04:33:34 hmm I don't remember if ironclad has such, but worth checking 04:33:35 ThomasH: Oh, now that I think about it, I've been thinking about this wrongly. Macro functions don't interact with the lexical environment they're /called/ in any more than other functions do, without the env parameter. 04:34:28 Bike: Ok, I think that makes sense. 04:34:33 pnathan: I remember some ffi layer over gpgme also, I don't know its name though 04:35:12 A'ight. 04:35:55 <|3b|> Bike: https://github.com/3b/3b-swf/blob/master/low-level/swf-primitive-types.lisp is an example 04:36:34 ThomasH: there is some example also in the Issue COMPILER-LET-CONFUSION Writeup part of the hyperspec 04:37:00 <|3b|> it defines a set of macros (like ub8 for unsigned-byte 8) describing some binary data, which can be used to read, write or calculate the size of that data depending on context 04:37:08 |3b|: Thanks. 04:37:14 <|3b|> https://github.com/3b/3b-swf/blob/master/low-level/swftype-read.lisp#L161 is an example of setting up a 'read' context 04:38:33 <|3b|> those macros are used as part of a DSL for defining binary structures, so the definition doesn't need to care how it is used 04:41:12 |3b|: Would a dynamic variable not have worked? 04:41:31 <|3b|> Bike: idea is to decide which expansion to use at compile time 04:41:59 oh, right. 04:42:30 <|3b|> probably could have done some CLOS/MOP magic that would have been nicer though, assuming i understood that sort of thing :p 04:42:32 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:42:51 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:42:56 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 04:43:26 <|3b|> originally it just defined a complete set of macros with macrolet for each case, then expanded the bodies inside the appropriate macrolet, but sbcl compiles macrolets inside methods slowly :( 04:45:10 If I use MACROEXPAND-1 on a macro that uses the environment variable, the null lexical environment is printed as NIL in LW and # in SBCL. This is fine according to the hyperspec, but it is messing up some internal testing I'm trying to perform by comparing the expansions. 04:45:37 What is it you're doing? 04:46:56 Bike: Internal testing of lisp-unit. I'm trying to think of something short to paste to illustrate the problem, but am very tired and feeling like just giving up for the night. 04:48:44 Basically, I use MACROEXPAND-1 to expand the macro and then compare it with a hand generated version of the expansion. I'm beginning to realize that this may not be possible in this case. 04:49:07 At least in SBCL, it works fine in LW and CCL. 04:49:23 <|3b|> sounds reasonable, why do you need to print the env for that? 04:52:13 |3b|: I don't actually PRINT the env, the macro expansion includes a macroexpand-1 form, so the env gets printed there. 04:53:37 huh, so the macroexpand-1 call isn't at macroexpansion time? 04:53:56 <|3b|> yeah, that sounds a bit strange, not completely sure though 04:55:23 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:07 Sure, without a paste, this is very confusing. I'm going to get some sleep and maybe then I'll be able to put together a decent paste to illustrate the problem. 04:58:02 -!- jlongster [~user@mail.3north.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:58:47 Thanks for humoring my fatigued ramblings. 04:58:54 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 04:59:08 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 04:59:10 good night. 04:59:16 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.238.60.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:03:40 francisl_ [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176343411.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:04:37 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 05:04:45 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176341587.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:04:45 -!- francisl_ is now known as francisl 05:08:16 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:16 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:10:54 -!- benny [~benny@i577A10B6.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:12:02 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:17:29 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 05:19:11 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-60.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:19:25 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 05:20:11 -!- harish is now known as harish_afk 05:22:19 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:23:59 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-162-20.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:24:50 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 05:25:34 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-162-20.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:26:04 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:30:24 isismelting [~jo@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:24 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has joined #lisp 05:33:53 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176343411.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 05:34:59 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 05:37:22 -!- isismelting [~jo@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 05:38:19 uh oh! http://paste.lisp.org/display/129077 05:41:21 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 05:43:50 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:44:41 -!- meiji11 [60333c78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.51.60.120] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:45:50 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 05:55:23 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.77] has joined #lisp 05:56:50 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:01:49 -!- morlos [~morlos@cpe-98-154-126-164.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: morlos] 06:02:50 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:06:14 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.119.155] has joined #lisp 06:09:26 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:11:20 Can someone opine about using WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT here on line 31-32: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/formulador/src/c09438cf1d58/formulador.lisp#cl-31 06:11:29 as opposed to using EVAL-WHEN with earlier stuff? 06:13:38 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.199.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:16:43 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 06:18:44 benny` [~benny@i577A7999.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:19:41 ynniv [~ynniv@c-76-23-252-81.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:23 thom_logn [~thom@pool-173-60-243-134.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:58 <|3b|> Quadrescence: looks rather odd, and i don't think class instances are portably usable with defconstant 06:29:22 |3b|, how do you mean? 06:31:05 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-173-60-243-134.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:31:14 <|3b|> undefined behavior if you evaluate the form with 'different' values (as in not eql) 06:31:25 <|3b|> and it can be evaluated at compile, load or both 06:31:39 <|3b|> so it might be evaluated twice, with different instances 06:34:07 <|3b|> not sure if defclass in the same file is enough for it to be able make an instance t compile time for that matter 06:36:08 thom_logn [~thom@pool-173-60-243-134.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:26 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 06:37:44 hi,does some one use trivial-timeout? i tried this (with-timeout (1) (do nil (nil) (ignore-errors (with-timeout (2) (sleep 0.01))))) on sbcl 06:37:50 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:38:02 but it won't signal timeout error and won't stop 06:41:20 <|3b|> Quadrescence: also, it is common to name constants like +empty-box+ to avoid conflicts with normal variables 06:41:36 |3b|, yes, I made an exception here 06:42:20 for consistency with -box. But really I should make a singleton class... 06:44:21 *|3b|* isn't sure about either 06:44:51 <|3b|> having a constant risks accidentally modifying it, and you still need to check for other instances that happen to be empty anyway 06:45:30 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-162-20.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:46:26 *|3b|* supposes you could have a non-singleton empty-box class that just always returns 0 and can't be resized 06:46:40 <|3b|> or that CHANGE-CLASSes when resized 06:47:07 <|3b|> but still has the same problem with empty normal boxes, unless they check for 0 and CHANGE-CLASS too 06:47:29 <|3b|> (which might not be completely unreasonable depending on which operations you do more of) 06:48:35 -!- oiig_ [oiig_@112.161.134.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:49:28 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-162-20.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:50:18 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-173-60-243-134.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:56:05 thom_logn [~thom@pool-173-60-243-134.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:29 puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:05:18 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@c-76-23-252-81.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 07:06:32 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:06:43 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-216-42.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:43 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-216-42.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:06:43 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 07:07:06 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:07:11 wws [~billstcla@p-216-227-81-121.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:57 |3b|, you raise some interesting modeling issues i didn't think of. 07:09:41 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-173-60-243-134.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:11:33 sacho [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 07:12:04 kornshell [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has joined #lisp 07:12:20 -!- xjrn [~innocuous@c-67-174-244-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:12:23 -!- benny` is now known as 18VAAG467 07:12:30 -!- 18VAAG467 is now known as benny` 07:12:50 Harag [~phil@dsl-243-180-187.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:12:51 -!- benny` is now known as benny 07:18:07 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:18:19 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:15 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:21:24 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-216-42.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:24 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-216-42.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:21:24 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 07:25:01 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:27:39 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:29:04 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:30:19 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@209.52.84.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:39:35 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 07:39:47 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.77] has joined #lisp 07:45:27 -!- Oladon [~Oladon@c-67-176-80-90.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:46:26 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-019.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 07:47:14 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-317953.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:48:35 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 07:48:57 bolic [~balor@p4FF7E05B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:49:58 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-175-3-20.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Stable thought output rate below emergency threshhold value. Please stand by.] 07:53:04 metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 07:58:44 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 08:00:26 sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 08:01:31 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 08:01:56 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:02:04 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-317953.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:02:12 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:21 sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 08:02:26 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-317953.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 08:02:33 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:03:53 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:06:47 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:12:09 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:14:44 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 08:18:35 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:27:44 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:28:47 cfy: what do you need timeouts for? 08:30:18 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-157-68.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:28 cfy: i'm asking because if you want to use them to exit tight loops like the one you've used as an example, you might not be able to get them. 08:31:24 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-132-208.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:31:33 nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 08:31:39 cfy: and as a general safeguard in multithreaded programs, you should rather not use them either. 08:34:10 -!- nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:38:56 metacoder [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 08:40:19 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-32-123.btc-net.bg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:40:53 -!- metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:43:47 fantasticsid [~user@178.18.16.11] has joined #lisp 08:43:58 thaum [~arun@122.179.96.64] has joined #lisp 08:44:55 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:45:19 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:45:22 -!- fantasticsid [~user@178.18.16.11] has quit [Client Quit] 08:47:14 slyrus [~chatzilla@209.52.84.50] has joined #lisp 08:48:18 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:49:51 hagish [~hagish@p57BCF88D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:33 ehu` [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:53:46 -!- metacoder [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:56:36 -!- thaum [~arun@122.179.96.64] has left #lisp 08:57:26 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:57:30 metacoder [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 08:58:14 -!- Guest78493 is now known as CrazyEddy 08:58:49 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:06:02 -!- metacoder [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:12:27 thekilon [~kilon@athedsl-407798.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:13:55 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:15:09 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-317953.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:18:35 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:24:42 H4ns: i'm using timeout for a searching function,my searching function sould get a path in 0.03s or it may cause many seconds to get a path.i try to rearrange the points,then let the function to search them. 09:26:27 cfy: i think it would be safer to check the maximum run time within your search algorithm. 09:28:26 H4ns: yeah,you are right.i will try to not use timeout later :) but is it a bug? 09:28:48 H4ns: i think it can't work on sbcl,but it does on ccl 09:29:46 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:29:57 cfy: i'd expect them to work only for i/o 09:30:03 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-216-42.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:03 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-216-42.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 09:30:03 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 09:31:55 -!- harish_afk [~harish@119.234.210.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:33:05 harish_afk [~harish@119.234.210.250] has joined #lisp 09:33:58 nikodemus [~nikodemus@178-55-38-11.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:37:26 H4ns: oh. 09:44:53 -!- kanru`` [~user@118-168-71-68.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:45:45 joachifm [~user@131.211.253.105] has joined #lisp 09:47:55 i think this is a platinum question here, but... why not to start gathering money for issuing new standard ? or ask Franz to make one ? 09:48:27 anonus: what do you think would a new standardization process cost? 09:49:15 you mean money ? 09:49:35 anonus: of course. 09:49:35 not only money 09:49:42 I am sure not only money 09:49:55 nerves! 09:49:57 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 09:50:32 i dunno but i think it's definitley will be much cheaper than 94 standard because there is not much competiting corporation that use lisp today 09:50:55 *are 09:50:59 *corporations 09:51:23 anonus: you obviously have no idea. 09:52:14 lambda is midas gold man! 09:52:15 yep, but i supposing that it is real amount 09:52:19 anonus: first off, it is unclear who needs a standard and for what. with a clear mission, any standardization process will fail. furthermore, suggesting that franz could "make" a new standard shows that you do not have much insight into the common lisp world as of today. 09:52:45 _without_ a clear mission, a standarization process will fail of course. 09:52:56 so, why franz can't do this ? 09:53:21 anonus: because noone except franz would want to implement a "standard" that franz has "made" 09:53:41 why not ? 09:53:44 anonus: and then, why would _they_ want to "make" a "standard"? what would you do to motivate them? 09:53:55 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has joined #lisp 09:54:01 so you mean it would be biased ? 09:54:08 anonus: because they have lives, customers, interests? writing standards is not a fun activity. 09:54:27 ah 09:54:29 and if we ask them veeery please ? >.< 09:54:37 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-223-108.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:54:39 and give them money ? 09:54:46 anonus: how much do you have? 09:55:29 personally i willing to donate $1-2k for new standard if one start gathering money 09:55:35 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:55:35 *i'm 09:55:39 anonus: i guess that given a few $100k, it would be possible to motivate someone to work on a standard. but as i said, without a clear mission, such a standard would be a paper tiger. 09:56:02 -!- diginet [~diginet@adsl-69-153-135-2.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:56:07 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-385889.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:56:19 diginet [~diginet@adsl-69-153-135-2.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:20 does anyone doubt that existing standard is crap ? 09:56:33 yes. i like it very much. 09:56:37 because it outdated 09:57:47 recycle` [~user@99-10-120-63.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:31 anonus: the problem is not that a new standard would not make sense, the problem is that too few people use common lisp. and because there are so few users, that is no reason to standardize again. 09:59:00 -!- recycle [~user@99-10-120-63.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:59:02 anonus: standardization is needed when a language is used a lot and the fragmentation becomes a bother for many people. it is these "many people" that common lisp lacks. 09:59:19 -!- thekilon [~kilon@athedsl-407798.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:59:34 H4ns: standard is not about quantity of people, it's about quantity of implementations 09:59:58 anonus: suppose that some rich dude would come up with funding for a new standard and even manage to find people who wrote that standard. what would be the motivation for franz, clozure, lispworks and sbcl to actually spend a lot of time implementing that standard? 10:01:12 anonus: with a language that has many users, it is those users who put pressure on the implementation vendors to implement the standard. these users do not exist with common lisp. 10:01:39 H4ns: whats up with you kind of depressive attitude last few days 10:01:48 ok, maybe not franz, but opensource implementations would implement standard i think 10:01:52 anonus: go to franz and tell them that they're not implementing, say, the sequence cdr. they'll shrug you off unless you offer to give them the money to implement that standard. 10:02:16 anonus: If you are interested about the topic, I suggest you listen to Peter Seibel's ILC 2010 talk, "Common Lisp Standardization: the Good, the Bad and the Ugly." Unfortunately apparently I suck at googling it. 10:02:20 maxm: i'm not depressed. i'm just writing more. 10:02:41 on a blogging spree or writing code? 10:02:46 and if franz will make new standard, we will have franz+opensource implementations that implements new standard 10:03:06 didi: ok, i'll try to find it 10:04:19 anonus: if if when when, but my question is who. who is going to step up and say "here i am, i will be heading this standardization process, my mission is $foo, it will take a few years and in the end we'll have common lisp 2.0". 10:04:44 the standardization is not a "lone person" process, its a discussion 10:04:55 someone whom we offer the money, which we gather 10:04:59 *maxm* actually quite enjoyed reading banter in CLHS source comments 10:05:38 maxm: the discussion was not held by those people because they so much loved discussing, but because they were working on the standardization process. 10:06:11 anonus: that someone needs to be taken seriously by all compiler vendors to begin with. 10:06:20 H4ns: also you seem to think franz etc are interested in standatization 10:06:24 ok, let it be franz 10:06:28 maxm: not at all. 10:06:46 anonus: franz is not a person, it is a company. 10:06:54 and what ? 10:06:57 H4ns: almost every code snippet I seen from allegro, from the get go uses their proprientory hash tables and utilities/macros, rather then CL ones 10:07:14 anonus: talk to them first, before you acclaim that they be the new standardization body. 10:07:20 and they don't sell CL stand-alone, they only sell the bundle with their other tools (I know coz I tried to buy it) 10:07:47 so its against Franz interest to have a better standard, coz they want to hook you into their prop. tools 10:07:53 ok, i'll do it 10:07:57 maxm: so? i worked for franz and i know the people. you don't need to convince me. 10:08:07 ah ok 10:10:54 anyway I see no reason in being depressed, its not that there are not enough lisp users, its that most of them some some form of attention deficit, and could never finish a library to useful state 10:11:13 also we can just ignore the commercial implementations and issue the standard for opensource ;) 10:11:59 but SBCL is slowly getting better, there is CCL biting their ankles etc 10:13:04 -!- joachifm [~user@131.211.253.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:15:00 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-223-108.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 10:15:37 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:15:46 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-216-42.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:47 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-216-42.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:15:47 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 10:17:16 anonus: just to put money into your perspective: the sbcl kickstarter campaign, which was about implementing some of the things that would be part, just part, of a new cl standard, raised around $16k. this is for just _implementing_ _some_ of the changes, with no standard written. and writing a standard would be much more expensive than that. 10:17:30 -!- guymann [~charles@64-252-121-252.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:17:50 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@162-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:18:00 -!- SaidinWoT [~sfrazier@66.96.251.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:18:13 lemoinem [~swoog@162-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:24 H4ns: and what? this is not so much 10:18:49 -!- puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:19:20 guymann [~charles@64-252-121-252.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:30 anonus: if you have money, start writing CDRs. You may write one about the mapping of logical pathnames to POSIX physical paths. You may write another about threading. Another about sockets. Another about FFI. And so on. Take each portability library, and write a CDR specifying it. When you will have spend a couple of years of your money doing that, you will be able to ask implementers to implement those specifications instead 10:19:30 of their deviant variants. Then perhaps with a bunch of CDR (and their prototype implementations portability libraries), you will be able to gather people to officialize a new standard. 10:19:43 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:19:54 http://cdr.eurolisp.org 10:19:57 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 10:19:59 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 10:20:00 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 10:20:13 anonus: in the meantime, don't bother us with that, we're busy writing lisp code 10:20:23 pjb: thanks! :) 10:21:04 maxm: you probably meant more lack of interest than attention disorder :) 10:21:38 SaidinWoT [~sfrazier@66.96.251.117] has joined #lisp 10:21:53 joachifm [~user@131.211.253.105] has joined #lisp 10:22:06 hm, iteresting 10:22:36 so from 2006 year no one has written cdr for example about threads ? 10:23:06 anonus: let me see.... no. 10:23:13 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:23:20 so no one cares ? 10:23:37 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:23:44 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-216-42.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:45 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-216-42.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:23:45 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 10:23:58 anonus: no one cares enough to write a cdr, because writing a cdr about threads would be rather hard. 10:24:16 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-3.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:24:31 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 10:24:31 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: reboot] 10:25:00 anonus: but if you care, you can write one yourself! 10:25:43 why i would if no one cares and only one who will be interested in it is me ? 10:26:20 anonus: i'd be interested in reading it. 10:26:51 you can read my poetry, it's already done 10:26:59 anonus: *shrug* 10:27:13 anonus: poetry is something that i reeally don't care much about. 10:27:16 Guthur [~user@host86-160-22-104.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:27:22 anonus: the question is: I give you 50,000 . What will you do next year? Get sunburn in the Seychelles, write Lisp code, or write CDRs? 10:27:32 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 10:27:38 i whould try to write it if someone interested in using it 10:27:57 pjb: i'll write cdrs 10:28:25 and write lisp code 10:28:30 this also involves looking at both implementation-specific interfaces and the overlay ones like bordeaux-threads, noting pros and cons, evaluating what is missing in some implementations but present in others, if that's too hard to ask implementation writers to add or not (if unrealistic it won't get implemented at all), etc 10:28:37 in this priorities 10:28:42 I also encourage you to do so if you have enough interest, it can't be a bad thing 10:28:44 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:28:52 Kvaks [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 10:28:58 anonus: good. Now create a campain on http://www.indiegogo.com/ and see how much money you get to write those CDRs. 10:29:13 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Client Quit] 10:29:19 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:24 pjb: no single $ i think, because no one cares 10:29:33 anonus: you never know. 10:29:53 i think i'm the only one here who want to donate to new standard 10:30:04 Kvaks [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 10:30:06 I would like to have more CDRs. I would like to write a couple even. But I don't have any money. 10:30:25 anonus: there are wother ways to give to Lisp than to write a new standard. 10:30:41 Basically, writing lisp applications do better good to lisp now than anything else. 10:31:07 Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has joined #lisp 10:31:07 why do you saying that cdr needs huge amount of money ? 10:31:43 anonus: if you can write an application that all linux user will want to download and use, therefore that all linux distributor will package along with its dependencies (ie. some lisp implementation and lisp libraries), this will do better good to lisp than writing all the CDRs of the world. 10:32:04 anonus: I don't say that. I'm saying that any amount of money is better spent on writing lisp code that writing CDRs. 10:32:43 i dont think so 10:33:18 anonus: ask everywhere, you'll see that it's the general opinion. 10:33:19 because you can spend less money to write lisp applications if you have cdr that implementation implements 10:33:30 anonus: no, not really. 10:33:36 ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has joined #lisp 10:33:54 anonus: any application worth anything will be 99.99% of application specific code, and 0.01% of portability layers. 10:33:54 why not? 10:34:10 pjb: we're not there yet, I think 10:34:27 look at the boradeux-thread developers, they spent a lot of time to implement such lib 10:34:51 eeh 10:34:57 although it seems many compatibility layers already do exist, it's still strange not to have the standard propose anything about networking code and multi-threading and subprocesses etc 10:35:21 maybe i'm very bad programmer but my progs consume up to 30% to compatibility layers 10:35:22 anonus: the problem is that it's too early to standardize on a given thread API or mechanisms. More experiments is needed. 10:36:41 araujo [~araujo@190.38.61.1] has joined #lisp 10:36:41 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.61.1] has quit [Changing host] 10:36:41 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 10:37:12 why? speaking theoretically what can stop us from standartizing boradeaux-threads ? 10:37:15 anonus: anyways, if you fell so inclined, go ahead, it won't be bad. Start writing a threading or a socket CDR. 10:37:54 *making boradeaux-threads as standard 10:37:59 Yes. 10:38:12 But notice how the API of bordeaux-threads is not frozen yet. 10:38:28 That's why I'm saying it's too early. 10:38:40 and limited compared to what some implementations provide 10:38:42 But you can start early too. 10:38:52 pjb: that objection makes no sense 10:39:10 -!- hagish [~hagish@p57BCF88D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:39:20 I'll gladly retract any such objection. I don't want to object on writing CDRs. 10:39:52 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:39:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:40:13 i think standartization is not the process of one man 10:40:40 anonus: sure. the CDRs you write will be commented and critisized. 10:40:49 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:40:51 eni [~eni@31.171.153.13] has joined #lisp 10:40:53 ok 10:40:56 And standardization will take a bunch of CDRs written by several people. 10:40:59 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:41:18 pjb: the B-T API is not frozen because B-T is only a compatibility layer 10:41:30 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has joined #lisp 10:41:36 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@162-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:41:58 If I was a implementer, I'd target the portability libraries as much as possible. 10:42:29 -!- dnm [~dnm@li97-254.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:42:29 it is not an implementation from scratch, in which case the API instability can be taken as a consequence of the author's not being sure about its quality 10:42:43 -!- gilez [~gdmalet@tux.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:42:59 I'm thinking about the removal of recursive locks. 10:43:39 dnm_ [~dnm@li97-254.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:43:55 -!- tycho [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:44:06 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-216-42.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:06 there is still no continuations in cl T_T 10:44:06 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-216-42.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:44:06 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 10:44:06 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-83-233.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 10:44:10 tycho [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:19 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-83-233.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 10:44:23 anonus: no. 10:44:50 Until recently nobody knew how to make them compatible with CL constructs. 10:44:51 it was not the questions, just fact 10:44:59 (there's a recent paper about it). 10:45:52 i think the best way is just implement it as special form 10:48:56 a practical cdr would specify the condition hierarchy for cl and list which of the conditions are signalled by what function. 10:48:58 gilez [~gdmalet@tux.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 10:49:37 lemoinem [~swoog@162-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:46 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:53:19 -!- joachifm [~user@131.211.253.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:54:17 m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.228] has joined #lisp 10:57:32 add^_ [~add^_^@m83-185-142-102.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:57:58 some standard condition class should have a caused-by member too 10:58:20 for chaining conditions which is very common pattern as people build libs that depend on libs that depend on lib 10:59:04 how nice would that be! 10:59:31 H4ns: that could be good candidate for inclusion into alexandria 10:59:50 as it already has "make conditions easier" thing 11:00:16 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:01:00 maxm: that i am not so sure about - i think it should be a separate reference implementation that could be included by implementors. 11:02:05 (and (< x 0) (< y 0) (> x 9) (> y 9)) <--- anyone can answer me how it can signal a type-error on x or y being -1 ? 11:02:16 sammi` [sammi@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-owlgyhdtwvaefnqx] has joined #lisp 11:03:06 (declare (type (integer 0) x)) 11:06:19 there's no such thing 11:07:14 p_l: where's the code? 11:07:50 p_l: you sure you did not do (defvar x whatever) before? 11:08:13 and that condition doesn't look satisfiable 11:08:49 then it should return NIL, not a type-error. 11:09:05 I'd bet it's sbcl. 11:09:41 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:10:19 (defun foo (x y) (and (< x 0) (< y 0) (> x 9) (> y 9))) compiles fine in sbcl and seem to work 11:10:35 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.54.87] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 11:10:50 http://paste.lisp.org/+2RLJ 11:11:28 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 11:11:32 p_l: we told you the condition returns always NIL. 11:11:41 Therefore it's aref that complains on the negative index! 11:11:57 p_l: no type errors, just unreachable code deletion notice 11:11:58 p_l: try OR. 11:12:08 ... right 11:12:18 and formats IF like that? 11:12:28 with NIL on the same line as the condition 11:12:50 -!- Bugson [~Bugson@87-204-6-135.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:13:20 have you tried (when (array-in-bounds-p *grid* x y) (aref *grid* x y)) ? 11:15:51 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:17:03 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-162-20.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:19:17 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 11:20:09 or if you insist on using magic numbers, (when (and (<= 0 x 9) (<= 0 y 9)) (aref *grid* x y)) 11:21:49 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-162-20.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:21:59 -!- sammi` [sammi@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-owlgyhdtwvaefnqx] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:21:59 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:21:59 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:21:59 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:21:59 -!- hyoyoung [seoz@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:21:59 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:21:59 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:22:23 p_l: never use > or >= ! 11:23:03 If you had written: (and (< x 0) (< 9 x) (< y 0) (< 9 y)) you would have noticed the problem immediately. 11:24:52 silenius [~silenius@i59F76FC6.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:25:06 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-160-22-104.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:26:46 in a multi-threaded program I need something like a pipe to push data from a reader thread to 1 or more worker threads, and I'm considering http://lparallel.com/api/queues/ to do that 11:27:02 any advice? maybe it would be better to just use streams? 11:27:16 can you send lists over streams and avoid reparsing them? 11:27:44 CL streams dont make pipes. 11:27:52 You'd need to use gray-streams to create a pipe. 11:28:35 sammi` [sammi@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-owlgyhdtwvaefnqx] has joined #lisp 11:28:35 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has joined #lisp 11:28:35 Kvaks [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 11:28:35 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 11:28:35 hyoyoung [seoz@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has joined #lisp 11:28:35 BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:35 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:46 thread communications would merit some standard :) 11:28:52 -!- kornshell [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:29:04 pjb: can you send lisp data in gray-streams or just formated text? 11:29:40 You can make a binary gray-stream. 11:29:55 dim: i'd use a queue. streams are not specified in the context of threads anyway. 11:29:56 But it's not a queue of lisp objects. 11:30:23 yeah so lparallel looks like a much better tool here 11:30:35 would you recommend another implementation? 11:31:00 pjb: thanks for the "always use <" suggestion. i've used that right away. 11:31:04 I see about 10 packages related to "queue" in QL 11:31:24 dim: you're using lparallel already, so why not just stick with it? 11:31:35 speaking of using others advice, H4ns, I've converted my code to stop importing symbols from used packages :) 11:31:57 H4ns: not the same project, I've been using it in a little bench program code and now I'm working on pgloader 11:31:57 H4ns: one of the snippet I've been taught by my CS teacher at the university :-) 11:32:12 dim: great. i hope enhances your experience. 11:32:44 well it's what I did already in python, in fact, exceptions apart 11:32:58 but I though shadowing import would be superior an approach 11:33:00 H4ns: I wonder why languages still have > and >= :-) 11:33:57 QL proposal: have ql:system-apropos output an URL to the lib's main website or documentation 11:36:14 dim: open an issue :) 11:36:49 i don't say "if 9 is less than x", i say "if x is greater than 9" 11:37:12 The following symbols are exported by the lparallel.queue package. (The lparallel package does not include lparallel.queue.) --- I can't help wondering why 11:37:20 <|3b|> >and >= are more obvious in infix languages 11:38:25 Guthur [~user@host86-160-22-104.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:38:52 The point is to sort the variables and the bounds of the segments. 11:38:53 how can I use emacsclient with emacs-snapshot 11:39:21 <|3b|> Guthur: first port both to CL :p 11:39:30 oops wrong channel 11:39:38 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@188.19.138.221] has joined #lisp 11:39:46 in the original problem, (and (< x 0) (> x 9)), the issue is obvious 11:40:09 |3b|: it has been tried I believe, hehe 11:40:36 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-135-106.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:40:43 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:40:54 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-51-207.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:42:38 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:44:42 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:44:59 mathslinux [~user@106.3.63.206] has joined #lisp 11:45:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:45:18 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-385889.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:46:30 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-160-22-104.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:47:13 -!- mathslinux [~user@106.3.63.206] has left #lisp 11:52:33 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:55:08 Guthur [~user@host86-160-22-104.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:57:43 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@182.Red-88-7-133.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:30 joachifm [~user@131.211.252.43] has joined #lisp 12:00:07 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-fhwahbcevthamhbe] has joined #lisp 12:00:32 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:05:41 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-fhwahbcevthamhbe] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:10:20 I guys, I've got a weird thing going on when parsing a string from a file. 12:10:30 I'm calling (if (string= (subseq pdb_line 0 4) "ATOM") 12:11:08 did you know that you can do (string= pdb_line "ATOM" :end1 4) ? 12:11:15 The string pdb_line is "ATOM 13 ." 12:11:20 I did not know this 12:11:31 dim: That's interesting. By "stop importing symbols" you mean, "do not (:use #:foo)"? 12:11:58 but either will fail if the string is shorter than 4 12:12:19 Yeah. I have a check to make sure it's longer than 4 12:12:45 But for some reason my if statement there works 12:13:03 I don't think it should... 12:13:16 It should be 0 3 12:13:21 Right...? 12:13:25 (= 4 (mismatch "ATOM" pdb-line)) doesn't require length checking 12:13:30 Or am I actually retarded and cant count 12:13:58 it should be 0 4, (subseq "ATOM 13 ." 0 4) => "ATOM" 12:14:07 eni [~eni@31.171.153.13] has joined #lisp 12:15:23 Hmm, I don't think I understand how subseq works then 12:15:45 clhs subseq 12:15:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm 12:16:02 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002130088196.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:16:11 -!- joachifm [~user@131.211.252.43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:16:25 Ahhh, bounding index designators 12:17:26 the best way is (alexandria:starts-with-subseq "ATOM" pdb-line) 12:18:04 Oooh 12:18:30 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:23:03 didi: yes 12:23:26 Bacteria: cl-lex and cl-yacc are good helpers to write parsers 12:24:21 Ah awesome, that's quite neat stassats` 12:24:38 dim: Oh cool. I'll look into these! 12:25:33 is there a way to easily know a package nickname? 12:25:35 There's also: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.string:prefixp "ATOM" string) 12:25:57 Bacteria: (string= line "ATOM" :end1 (min (length line) (length "ATOM"))) 12:26:10 D: 12:26:12 jdz [~jdz@host211-15-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:26:21 dim: read CLHS! 12:26:33 dim: hint: there's a permuted symbol index. 12:26:38 pjb: (= (length "ATOM") (mismatch "ATOM" line)) is shorter 12:27:00 dim: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Perm_N.htm 12:27:02 stassats`: sure. 12:27:19 -!- jdz [~jdz@host211-15-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 12:27:24 or (zerop (search "ATOM" line)), but it might be slower 12:27:28 I gave the MIN solution as a generic solution. 12:28:11 pjb: I use the Info version of the clhs 12:28:53 (info "(ansicl) package-nicknames") 12:28:56 jdz [~jdz@host211-15-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:29:12 (package-nicknames 'lparallel) => nil 12:29:54 dim: Wouldn't that make using symbols from other packages uncomfortable? A long package name could make it almost impossible to read. 12:31:11 didi: that's why I'm reading about package nicknames 12:31:16 dim: oi 12:31:20 dim: oic, even 12:31:23 it would make easier to read, because you will know where the symbol comes from 12:32:15 stassats`: Take pjb's prefixp example, `com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.string:prefixp'. It's a long string to time and read. 12:32:23 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has left #lisp 12:32:24 s/time/type 12:32:29 didi: that's just pjb 12:32:47 didi: sane package names are easy to read 12:33:16 I see. 12:33:47 1- you don't type it, because you copy-and-paste it from apropos or lspack output, or you complete it with slime. 12:34:05 2- you (:use "COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM.STRING") in your defpackage form and just type (prefix p s). 12:34:17 ferdynan_d [~ferdynan_@cs78225212.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:34:37 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-223-108.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:34:54 3- it's a hierarchical package name. Use a hierarchical package name add-on and just type cesarum.string:prefix 12:35:29 alexandria:starts-with-subseq is longuer. 12:35:38 s/ue/e/ 12:37:27 *pjb* is just in advance on his time. 12:38:35 -!- silenius [~silenius@i59F76FC6.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:40:32 jacobw [~jacobw@fedora/jacobw] has joined #lisp 12:41:50 well (lparallel.queue:pop-queue queue) is long too 12:42:04 a nickname such as lqueue would be good 12:42:09 can I install such myself? 12:45:50 dim: some packages make it easy to use them without :use, i.e. by not repeating implicit words in the function name and using short package names 12:46:10 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-319012.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 12:46:14 cl-lex and yacc are two of those 12:46:23 lparallel not so much 12:46:34 dim: you can rename packages (cl:rename-package) 12:46:54 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:57 -!- bolic [~balor@p4FF7E05B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:47:32 dim: open issue on github to add nickname, its in active development so guy will probably do it next day 12:47:35 I could maybe rename to the same name and add nicknames 12:48:46 maybe I should just :import-from 12:49:09 naeg_ [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:49:12 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 12:49:19 dim: there also seems to be :package-renaming system in quicklisp 12:49:33 check it out, never used it, but seem to have (with-effective-package-renaming) thing 12:49:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-019.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:51:07 fowl_ [~fowl@99-117-5-219.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:05 behelit [~behelit@c213-89-59-224.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:52:32 *maxm* looked at it, and its geared towards renaming packages by using around method on asdf compiles 12:52:40 so not really the local nicknames thing 12:52:42 ok, anyone know of a good tutorial/information on finding and installing third party modules? 12:52:49 (sbcl) 12:52:58 -!- wws is now known as billstclair 12:52:59 http://www.quicklisp.org 12:53:00 behelit: it is called quicklisp, http://quicklisp.org/ 12:53:05 thanks! 12:53:09 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-216-227-81-121.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:53:10 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 12:53:11 oh yeah, heard of that. 12:53:28 quicklisp is the installing half of the story at least 12:54:11 if (ql:system-apropos "thing") doesn't hit for you you should check cliki.net and common-lisp.net 12:54:14 -!- gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:54:14 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:54:14 -!- dkasak [dkasak@s0.barwen.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:54:19 dkasak [dkasak@s0.barwen.ch] has joined #lisp 12:54:37 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:39 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-243-180-187.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:54:39 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-60.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:54:39 -!- fowl [~fowl@99-117-5-219.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:55:11 gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 12:56:14 ok, lots of graphics modules. anyone know of a module that would allow me to load an image (jpeg) and crop it using a mask? 12:56:32 behelit: i'm using cl-gd 12:57:59 seems like it could work. 12:58:02 thanks again. 12:58:26 (rename-package 'lparallel 'lparallel '(lp)) 12:58:27 (rename-package 'lparallel.queue 'lparallel.queue '(lq)) 12:58:32 that's so much better:) 12:59:09 behelit: maybe https://github.com/hanshuebner/quickhoney/blob/master/src/imageproc.lisp can give you some inspiration 12:59:34 behelit: installing quicklisp is very easy, using it to get cl-gd is probably as easy as installing cl-gd strait off, so I recommend going that route 12:59:49 Vivitron: will do! 13:00:09 Vivitron: i'm not sure whether quicklisp automatically compiles the c wrapper 13:00:15 (just saying) 13:00:32 ah, I'm not sure either 13:00:35 oh 13:03:25 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 13:04:18 doesn't seem to do that 13:04:30 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0128cb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:37 just go into the source dir and type 'make' 13:04:43 hi 13:05:34 where does ql put the source? 13:05:37 is there a good 'getting started with common lisp' document somewhere? I.e. setting up slime and emacs with SBCL (of course there are other CLs) 13:05:52 behelit: ~/quicklisp/... 13:06:02 ah, yes, including quicklisp. 13:06:10 ah, was looking for a dot-prefixed dir. thanks 13:06:26 prxq: http://mohiji.nfshost.com/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/ 13:07:30 H4ns: thanks! 13:08:18 I'm having a lot of success with my CL proselitizing lately. The word 'exponential' comes to mind. 13:08:44 i hate that word proselitizing.... 13:08:55 sounds like a chimera 13:09:19 prose + litizing ? 13:09:33 not even complete.... 13:10:06 proselytizing 13:10:22 wth lytizing ? 13:10:28 where does that come from ? 13:10:43 prose ok .... 13:11:13 i would think that it is pro+selytize, but that's off-topic 13:11:21 nvm 13:12:45 (it's actually pro+lytos) 13:13:08 oh man i thought that was a word out of 2 or so... 13:13:12 ok ok now i see 13:14:24 lol 13:14:31 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:52 -!- nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:16:24 hagish [~hagish@p5091D235.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:36 -!- naeg_ [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:17:04 nikodemus: is there any reason you patching slime rather then use pkhuong's delayed lambda thing? 13:17:54 ah doh it says right in the next email that SBCL will be fixed as well 13:18:13 pro+elite the s is a ..... 13:18:25 bridge ? 13:19:03 homie: OT, please stop 13:19:10 ok 13:20:28 maxm: because slime needs to work with older sbcl's as well 13:20:58 my interest in this that I also use auto-flusher thread in log4cl so it exibits same problems 13:21:05 I agree the word isn't nice. But the fact is that I think the winds are changing. 13:21:53 osa1 [~sinan@88.242.232.46] has joined #lisp 13:21:58 -!- osa1 [~sinan@88.242.232.46] has left #lisp 13:22:44 I added links to Getting Going with CL on http://www.cliki.net/Getting%20Started 13:22:47 prxq: is it because clojure brings lisp into the mainstream? other reason? 13:23:55 prxq: only an English speaking person would find proselyte not a nice word. It's a great word, with pedigree! 13:24:05 -!- ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:25:10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo2eH3-R09I <= how I imagine H4ns 13:25:16 please don't kick me :-) 13:25:26 lol 13:25:37 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 13:26:07 pjb: i've removed much of that page as the links were dead 13:26:18 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-125-4.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:27 maxm: that's flattering 13:26:45 pjb: (the first section of that page, i mean) 13:27:10 H4ns: you could not have finished watching... 13:27:32 maxm: indeed. i'm too busy making grumpy remarks. 13:27:44 the life is fleeting and cruel 13:29:12 I have no idea what has changed. Perhaps it is indeed clojure and to some extent julia. 13:29:13 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-157-68.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:29:30 naeg_ [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 13:30:01 prxq: i could imagine that some of the hipster folks now come to common lisp because they detest the jvm :) 13:33:43 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.95.1] 13:34:20 -!- cage [~cage@FLH1Aaq228.fko.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:35:36 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:57 Oladon [~Oladon@c-67-176-80-90.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:48 pjb: Continuations with CL? That's interesting. Is this paper available online? 13:41:25 getting gd running was hard. almost all tests pass now, but i still get " illegal function call" when trying to runt he example code 13:41:52 behelit: oh, exactly where? and what problems did you have? 13:42:25 ehu` [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 13:45:05 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:45:24 -!- hugod is now known as Guest96944 13:46:17 dino82 [75d98b90@gateway/web/freenode/ip.117.217.139.144] has joined #lisp 13:47:27 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 13:47:46 ainm [~ainm@111.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:20 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-250-163.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:49:48 H4ns: http://dpaste.com/735101/ 13:49:58 the file `fix.lisp` contains an example from the site 13:50:08 (and asdf loading of cl-gd) 13:50:39 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-162-20.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:51:27 behelit: you forgot to (use-package :cl-gd) 13:51:44 behelit: what problems did you have with the installation? 13:52:57 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:53:42 nefo_ [~nefo@58.37.41.221] has joined #lisp 13:57:13 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:58:18 H4ns: various (i'm a *total* newbie) :) now i'm getting name-conflicts 13:58:50 behelit: did you restart your lisp yet? if you did not, please do. 13:59:08 -!- nefo_ [~nefo@58.37.41.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:59:43 damn slime "resolve-conflict" restart needs to be refactored to provide 2 restarts for 2 packages, rather then using (read) to read a number 14:01:48 maxm: you dislike entering the number? it never bothered me 14:01:51 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-125-4.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 14:02:12 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-125-4.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:22 ah 14:02:23 maxm: I had a virology lecturer named Hans. "Hallo class. Today ve are going to talk about ze herpes virus." 14:02:28 now it works, thanks H4ns! 14:02:44 behelit: have fun! 14:03:32 maxm: i had that as a christmas wish in 2007 or so 14:03:49 http://xach.livejournal.com/96625.html -- 2006 14:04:40 Xach: i like the comments! 14:04:50 H4ns++ 14:04:57 I don't get the 2 comments in there 14:05:13 maxm: they are from friends of mine who read my blog but who care nothing for lisp 14:05:55 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 14:06:20 i know, i know...i should get better friends. 14:07:42 *maxm* does not get the whole blogging culture.. Interestinly how I can spew crap for hours on irc 14:07:57 but writing a post is a chore 14:08:20 It is hard work worth doing 14:09:48 CampinSam [~Sam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:51 1+ for blogging. 14:11:04 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:11:11 I can't do it, but people who can absolutely should. 14:15:50 those who can, do, those who can't, blog 14:17:49 imho its related to whole extrovert vs introvert thing.. 14:17:53 Some people sometimes think that their work will speak for themselves, but if you don't say a word, no one will know what your commit log is saying. 14:18:19 *maxm* always lols when he hears the expression "he is a intensely private person", since it rings a bell 14:19:40 -!- ferdynan_d [~ferdynan_@cs78225212.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:20:25 Even more important to the programming community, which is a voracious reader. 14:21:26 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.199.230] has joined #lisp 14:24:34 -!- CampinSam [~Sam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:26:27 -!- Oladon [~Oladon@c-67-176-80-90.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:27:06 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 14:31:23 i think the difference between irc and blogging is the scope of your propositions 14:32:32 i only do irc, blogging seems labourious to me as well 14:33:42 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:44 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 14:44:07 dnolen [~user@cpe-69-203-204-197.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:46:23 didi: I saw that paper mentionned last year in #scheme IIRC. 14:48:26 -!- Guest96944 [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 14:51:16 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has joined #lisp 14:53:29 / 14:53:46 banlist 14:54:08 whoops 14:57:29 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-043.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 14:58:33 kanru`` [~user@61-228-145-105.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:01 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@220.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:59:35 nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 15:00:16 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:03:46 -!- dino82 [75d98b90@gateway/web/freenode/ip.117.217.139.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:06:00 -!- nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:06:06 shizzy0 [~user@c-24-91-161-73.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:47 nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 15:09:56 -!- nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:11 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-69-203-204-197.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:10:51 nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 15:12:11 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@80.203.136.220] has joined #lisp 15:13:18 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:13:41 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 15:14:00 i use to put my commit in a blog, I think no one read it ;) 15:14:36 -!- nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:14:38 -!- naeg_ [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:15:29 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 15:15:34 Greetings lispers 15:16:01 Last night I was rambling about the null lexical environment. It's causing problems with internal testing in lisp-unit. 15:16:29 So, I've pasted what I think describes the issue -> http://paste.lisp.org/display/129084 15:16:38 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 15:18:39 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-043.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:19:17 Really, it's not so much the null lexical environment, but the representation and how it is printed. 15:19:56 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-045.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 15:21:10 ThomasH: NIL is a designator for the null environment. It's not necessarily THE null environment. 15:21:30 ThomasH: just don't depend on the environment? 15:21:35 pjb: True. 15:22:27 stassats`: I thought about changing assert-expands to not include the environment, but I don't use that assertion often enough to feel confident that that is acceptable. 15:24:46 I think that this issue would arise with using assert-expands, anyway. It is probably not just an issue with internal testing. I think it is a fundamental problem with assert-expands. 15:25:27 phrixos [~foo@adsl-77-86-94-94.karoo.kcom.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:31 -!- phrixos [~foo@adsl-77-86-94-94.karoo.kcom.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:25:32 phrixos [~foo@unaffiliated/phrixos] has joined #lisp 15:31:21 Ugh, I think this actually does expose a fundamental problem with assert-expands, the code internally uses EQUAL to test the expansion with the expected form and that will fail miserably when you have GENSYMS. 15:31:30 Among other problems. 15:39:40 xjrn [~innocuous@c-67-174-244-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:46 does it even make sense to do unit testing on macro expansions? 15:44:00 stassats`: I'm beginning to wonder that myself. 15:44:09 i thought unit tests were for testing the preservation of semantics 15:44:25 while the code changes 15:46:58 Primarily, I think there are also secondary benefits during initial development. 15:49:21 the code does change during initial development too 15:51:28 -!- sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:53:03 Testing assert-expands using assert-expands generates a result that is worse than the problem I'm getting with the internal testing. I get a long, printed, representation of the lexical environment, at least on LW. 15:53:17 chturne [~chturne@2.28.99.43] has joined #lisp 15:55:36 mathrick_ [~mathrick@94.144.63.10] has joined #lisp 15:56:43 zhangkaizhao [~zhangkaiz@27.47.17.172] has joined #lisp 15:56:51 -!- zhangkaizhao [~zhangkaiz@27.47.17.172] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:57:21 zhangkaizhao [~zhangkaiz@27.47.17.172] has joined #lisp 15:58:04 -!- zhangkaizhao [~zhangkaiz@27.47.17.172] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:58:29 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:59:35 zhangkaizhao [~zhangkaiz@27.47.17.172] has joined #lisp 16:02:28 mensch [~mensch@c-67-189-240-148.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:11 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-319012.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:12:07 francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176343411.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:13:50 sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has joined #lisp 16:14:12 -!- theos 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seconds] 17:23:38 dekuked [6c14d93b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.20.217.59] has joined #lisp 17:27:01 dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-184-119.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:31 dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 17:29:59 -!- chturne [~chturne@2.28.99.43] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:30:35 brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:27 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@162-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:35:31 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:39:08 -!- brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:42:41 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:42:45 brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:23 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:51 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:44:06 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:45:52 -!- jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:26 oiig_ [oiig_@112.161.134.227] has joined #lisp 17:47:29 -!- dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:49:24 -!- brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:50:46 what's the difference between flet and labels? 17:51:01 clhs flet 17:51:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 17:51:18 the scope of the defined functions within definitions 17:51:28 FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has joined #lisp 17:51:32 essentially, use labels if your functions are recursive 17:51:43 stassats: thanks 17:51:55 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:00 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-244.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 17:52:10 rather, use labels if your functions refer to functions defined in the same LABELS 17:52:14 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-148-191.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:52 although tbh i'm not sure there's any real disadvantage to just using labels all the time is there? 17:54:14 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@182.Red-88-7-133.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 17:54:24 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-125-4.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:55:23 -!- ainm [~ainm@111.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:55:55 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:57:45 dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 17:58:33 clarity, and ability to make a wrapper that calls the global definition with the same name (provided by a macro, eg.) 17:59:19 nikodemus: it's usually not a good idea to use the same name 17:59:20 ainm [~ainm@111.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:26 -!- shizzy0 [~user@c-24-91-161-73.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:01:40 stassats`: i meant something along the lines of (defmacro with-foo-context (...) `(flet ((foo () (foo (context))) ...)) 18:02:18 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.184] has joined #lisp 18:02:38 good or bad, you can't do what with labels 18:03:15 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-244.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:18 interesting 18:03:51 ehu` [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:04:35 Bike [~Glossina@75-175-3-20.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:54 but clarity is generally the reason i use flet unless i need labels 18:05:26 it's the same as let vs. let* 18:05:39 jlongster [~user@mail.3north.com] has joined #lisp 18:05:47 *prxq* uses labels exclusively 18:10:11 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:14:49 LispFail [~LispFail@62.254.165.178] has joined #lisp 18:16:32 Could anyone help me please? 18:16:40 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-95.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 18:16:44 it's a very simple fix im sure 18:16:46 http://pastie.org/3829552 18:17:01 are you trolling? 18:17:07 sorry? 18:17:33 im looking for genuine assitance 18:17:44 this is the most silly way to do it 18:17:48 looks like homework 18:18:09 minion: advice 11911? 18:18:09 You wrote the same thing twice here. The cardinal rule of programming is that you never ever write the same thing twice. 18:18:11 its something my friends are working on 18:20:25 how would we diplay the letter? 18:20:29 *display 18:21:11 employing common programming techniques 18:21:20 (write-char #\N) 18:21:22 like loops and variables 18:23:34 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-83-233.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23:34 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-83-233.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23:39 sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has joined #lisp 18:23:54 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-83-233.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 18:24:01 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-83-233.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 18:25:39 LispFail: maybe you should read a book like this one: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 18:26:49 i have no interest in learning lisp 18:26:57 im an object orientated programmer 18:27:46 this troll is not very good 18:27:58 how is this a troll 18:28:31 Because you're asking questions while displaying complete disinterest in learning or understanding anything. 18:29:42 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-045.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:30:23 eni [~eni@31.171.153.13] has joined #lisp 18:31:36 im just enquiring for a friend 18:31:42 just trying to find him help 18:31:49 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.29.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:32:02 LispFail: have him come here 18:32:05 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:32:24 ill get him 18:33:00 LispFail: btw, if you are an "object-oriented programmer", learning lisp would be very educative. 18:33:02 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-148-191.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:03 i understand that but i just find it incredibly difficult 18:34:51 LispFail: ok, just saying. :) 18:35:45 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 18:35:59 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-148-191.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:36:32 LispFail: the function max only handles numbers. the count calls in the mostcommon function only return numbers and so the character information is not returned from the function in any way. you need another kind of approach 18:37:19 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-129-38.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:29 Ok Adeon: We need to use Max to get the actual number of times the letter is done right? but then somehow write the letter hmm 18:38:22 hi 18:39:19 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-146-184.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:25 you can't use the max function to compare all of them at the same time because it loses information 18:40:34 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-148-191.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:40:51 how would we both get the number of times AND the letter though? 18:40:52 you could, for example, make a function that loops over the characters, checks if for a character counting the letters is greater than the highest count we've seen so far and also store the character that had the highest count 18:41:14 Is there some tree-searching equivalent to find? 18:41:47 you could return it as a (values a b) thing or a pair like (cons a b) 18:41:49 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-129-38.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:41:57 flip214: no 18:42:05 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-146-193.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:35 stassats`: thansk 18:42:37 *thanks 18:42:46 Adeon: i shall get my friend he is the brains :P 18:43:22 flip214: (block nil (subst-if nil (lambda (x) (when (eql y x) (return x))) tree) nil) 18:44:04 stassats`: thanks, but that'll cons a lot 18:44:17 how come? 18:44:44 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-146-184.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:45:16 "(subst new old tree) makes a copy of tree," 18:45:33 so at least temporarily there'll be a lot of conses 18:45:45 -!- LispFail is now known as DrLisp 18:46:37 nsubst-if then 18:47:27 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-230-179.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:28 and read the two sections later 18:47:46 "If no changes are made, the original tree may be returned" 18:48:48 yes, might be the simplest way ... of course, the classic way is to have an own recursive function 18:49:19 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-146-193.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:49:52 I can't seem to find the COPY command support in postmodern 18:50:23 have you tried using it? 18:50:51 -!- dino82 [75c481b2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.117.196.129.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:51:22 -!- Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has quit [Quit: even in laughter, the heart of Snorlax is sorrowful. and the end of that mirth is heaviness.] 18:52:21 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-153-68.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:21 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:16 BenAUK [~BenAUK@62.254.165.178] has joined #lisp 18:53:16 -!- BenAUK [~BenAUK@62.254.165.178] has quit [Client Quit] 18:53:59 pnq [~nick@ACA31136.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:54:03 I've been using postmodern a little for a very simple benchmark I needed to script, now I'm trying to use it to build pgloader 18:54:18 (pgloader already exists in python, I want to code next version in CL) 18:54:23 have you tried using the COPY command? 18:54:32 what's pgloader ? 18:54:34 I can't find its documentation 18:54:46 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-128-108.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:01 so I don't even now how it's supposed to be spelled, nor how to arrange the params, etc 18:55:09 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-230-179.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:55:13 copy-from, copy-to, copy direction, etc? 18:56:04 time to read postmodern sources 18:58:04 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-153-68.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:58:58 Oladon [~Oladon@c-67-176-80-90.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:57 dim: postmodern does not come with copy support, but we've got some changes on our branch to add that. 19:00:23 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-124-10.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:24 dim: i don't know how well they work with non-acl, but you can surely have a look. https://github.com/mcna/Postmodern 19:00:56 brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:29 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.184] has quit [] 19:02:55 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.184] has joined #lisp 19:03:04 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-128-108.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:03:55 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-124-10.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:38 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:05:20 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:07:14 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-124-10.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:08:45 -!- brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:08:58 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:10:06 brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:18 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 19:13:34 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:41 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@31.163.221.123] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 19:14:08 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@31.163.221.123] has joined #lisp 19:26:08 H4ns: you work at allegro? 19:27:20 and btw thx for that link, looking at it 19:27:25 tomekd789 [tomekd789@hbm66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:27:46 any chance to have copy support upstream? 19:29:42 -!- Oladon [~Oladon@c-67-176-80-90.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:32:03 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:32:30 Need help on Allegro CE Express 8.2, just quick hints. I've added new files to the project, say, definitions.cl. After starting the GUI, I compiled the file manually (compile-file "definitions.cl"), but it seems like the operators are still not defined at the REPL level 19:32:37 What am I doing wrong? 19:32:47 tomekd789: compiling does not load 19:32:59 tomekd789: try loading after compile 19:33:00 Oladon [~Oladon@c-67-176-80-90.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:11 e.g. (load (compile-file "foo.cl")) 19:33:12 CampinSam [~Sam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:33:18 mm, allegro is Franz and you mentionned it with a past tense H4ns, sorry 19:33:28 Xach, I'll try, thanks 19:35:16 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0128cb.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:35:24 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.184] has quit [] 19:35:57 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.184] has joined #lisp 19:39:25 tomekd789: if you're in a hurry (eg. while developping), you may also load without compiling. 19:39:34 -!- brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:39:56 -!- a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:42:35 tomekd789: Then, don't forget that you're using interpreted code and wonder why it is dog slow. 19:43:14 and so easy to debug (in allegro) 19:45:19 Xach: How does debugging interpreted code differ from compiled? (Curious, not trying to be snarky) 19:46:39 -!- colz [1f2ce64f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.44.230.79] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:47:39 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-80-4.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:48:15 lemoinem [~swoog@162-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:18 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has quit [Quit: Out of this 3D] 19:51:15 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-124-10.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 19:51:34 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-124-10.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:55 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.184] has quit [] 19:52:10 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:52:51 Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.11.184] has joined #lisp 19:54:19 stassats`: Took your advice and got rid of the lexical environment variable in that unit testing assertion for macros. Still not sure that the assertion isuseful, but want to leave it in for now. 20:03:08 brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:01 -!- Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:05:12 dim: we've got some folks in our shop who use allegro, which is why some of the changes we have in our forks of open source software are not tested on other implementations. 20:07:47 -!- airolson [~airolson@174.119.26.215] has quit [] 20:07:48 dim: about getting the stuff upstream: if it runs on allegro only, i guess marijn will not like it. 20:07:49 -!- blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:08:09 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:46 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:11:24 -!- Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.11.184] has quit [] 20:11:31 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:12:25 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483B725.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 20:13:10 ThomasH: for example, when interpreting you can debug the macros (the interpreter may interpret the calls to macroexpand). Once compiled, you have to debug the macro-expansions. 20:13:30 ThomasH: in any case, this is higly implementation dependant, anything can occur. 20:13:40 Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.11.184] has joined #lisp 20:20:25 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 20:20:36 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 20:21:58 ThomasH, thanks, it works. 20:23:24 -!- dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:24:07 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@94.144.63.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:26:46 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176343411.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 20:27:40 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-244-221.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:28:28 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B725.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:51 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-235-29.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:05 pjb: Ah, yes, I've actually done that in SBCL before by setting some variable so that things weren't compiled. Forgot about that. 20:38:16 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has quit [Quit: It's Saturday!] 20:41:09 -!- DrLisp [~LispFail@62.254.165.178] has quit [Quit: DrLisp] 20:41:23 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002130088196.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 20:42:02 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.214.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:45:35 H4ns: I think I will need it to run on CCL and SBCL, so I might at least check that it's the case and report 20:46:34 this load/compile distinction is implementation dependent right? some will run bytecode no matter what and I think CCL is compiling no matter what, too 20:47:02 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-395824.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:52:43 nif [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 20:53:07 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.203.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:53:11 all implementation details are implementation specific 20:53:24 -!- nif is now known as manners 20:54:33 dim: yes, and one of the goals of ANSI CL was to make sure programs would mostly behave the same whether compiled or not 21:02:39 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@178-55-38-11.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:03:14 asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879A7F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:05:49 -!- brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:06:48 H4ns: (loop for (x . more-p) on some-list ...) is a nice trick :) 21:10:20 slyrus [~chatzilla@204.239.250.1] has joined #lisp 21:11:56 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:13:04 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:13:33 dim: indeed. not mine, though. i rarely use loop, foolishly :) 21:15:37 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@204.239.250.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:17:29 I discovered loop in elisp with (require 'cl) and I'm very fond of it 21:18:03 it can really simplify the code you're writing, at the expense of having to learn when not to use it :) 21:18:26 in my experience, it starts out easy with loop but then it becomes messy 21:18:31 oh and my favorite fibonacci implementation uses it too :) 21:18:36 -!- jlongster [~user@mail.3north.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:19:07 i rarely use fibonacci numbers :) 21:19:14 that's when you need to reconsider, if it's not simplifying your code... well... no reason to use it I think 21:19:35 I needed something to try out some CL implementations :) 21:19:42 slyrus [~chatzilla@204.239.250.1] has joined #lisp 21:19:46 to get a feeling if you want 21:19:54 francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176343411.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:20:01 -!- manners [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:14 a one-liner was good because it allowed me to skip packages etc 21:20:26 i've come to accept that other people master loop better than i do. maybe you're one of them. 21:20:40 I don't think so, I'd be surprised 21:20:55 I've been using loop in cases where a mapcar was all I needed ,for example 21:21:18 the one liner is (defun fib (n) "Return only the n'th number from the series" (loop repeat n for x = 0 then y and y = 1 then (+ x y) finally (return y))) 21:21:21 so in the end, is more a matter of style than anything else. 21:21:24 manners [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 21:21:39 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:43 that's my n00b approach here yes 21:21:47 fibonacci numbers don't touch me at all 21:21:51 loop can make for very easy to read code 21:22:02 that's what they claim 21:22:06 hehe 21:22:18 in my life as a cl programmer, i have seen many loops that were not at all "easy to read" 21:22:21 I agree it's very easy not to use it too :) 21:22:35 my favorite is (defun fib (n) (let ((current 1) (previous 0)) (dotimes (i n) (shiftf previous current (+ previous current))) previous)) 21:22:51 loosing track is easy when you're too deep into your code 21:23:01 stassats`: that's a pretty one :) 21:23:11 -!- phrixos [~foo@unaffiliated/phrixos] has quit [Quit: phrixos] 21:23:30 shiftf. mmm. I'm too n00b here, I dislike setf like code 21:23:33 even though fibonacci numbers don't touch me. 21:25:57 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.185] has joined #lisp 21:29:54 you know about the fibonacci pigeons right? 21:34:06 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-395824.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:18 -!- manners [~nor@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:04 (system:make-temp-file-name) is allegro specific it seems 21:40:12 alexandria to the rescue? 21:40:43 dim: alexandria has no such thing. 21:40:59 I just found out (reading its io.lisp) 21:41:18 what then? #+ccl specific? 21:41:39 osicat 21:41:45 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:55 http://common-lisp.net/project/osicat/manual/html_node/Files-and-Symbolic-Links.html#Files-and-Symbolic-Links 21:42:26 does osicat work on windows? 21:42:30 dim: looks proper. i'm not sure about the dependency though 21:42:51 yeah I'm trying to see if that needs some FFI/libc things already 21:43:10 stassats`: Osicat is a lightweight operating system interface for Common Lisp on POSIX-like systems, including Windows, licensed under a MIT-style license. 21:43:11 dim: postmodern does not, i think. 21:43:29 just checked, it doesn't 21:43:31 postmodern is implementing the socket protocol and not using FFI, right 21:43:38 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:43:57 i'd just use a simple home-grown temporary file name generator 21:44:30 just to avoid bringing a dependency into postmodern, I guess? 21:44:38 which dependency? 21:44:42 "just" might not be the best spelling here 21:44:50 stassats`: we're talking about adding osicat here 21:44:57 osicat has no temporary file generation on windows 21:45:08 ikki [~ikki@189.247.208.25] has joined #lisp 21:45:20 osicat:open-temporary-file will not work there? 21:45:35 nope 21:45:36 I could see special casing the feature on allegro too 21:45:50 just use a simple make-temp-file-name function. 21:46:01 as it requires running on the same server as PostgreSQL... 21:46:34 i mean, it is not rocket science. it'd be nice if you made it configurable through a special variable so that one can put the temporary files onto a disk with more space. 21:46:43 #+allegro ... #-allegro (error ...)? 21:47:18 dim: i have no dependencies tmp file names generator in log4cl test suite, seems to work 21:47:44 again that's a narrow case where your application code is running on the same host as PostgreSQL, it can not be made to work on the network, that code path where you need a temp file, so... 21:49:00 erm, well, it is not entirely uncommon to run the database server on the same box as the lisp, especially during development 21:49:17 or if you need maximum performance, like when bulk loading data 21:49:29 so "narrow case" is not quite what i'd see here. 21:50:01 steal maxm's code, and make sure that the directory can be configured. 21:50:55 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:51:37 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 21:52:45 will do that later, ok, it's soon to be midnight though 21:53:26 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:13 (and as a pgsql dba copy to/from on the server file system really is not something you casually do, in the psql client you'd use \copy for that) 21:55:08 dim: in any case, i expect code to run with the database local or remote, and i'd be dismayed to see such a restriction. 21:55:44 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:55:50 me too, but well, immediate goal is to see if I can use the allegro specific bulk-copy code in ccl 21:56:13 it seems I can't properly use #+ and #- though 21:56:24 dim: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129090 21:56:38 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@204.239.250.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:57:18 #-allegro (error "use-temporary-file requires using allegro") 21:57:18 )) 21:57:37 that's ugly, is it common to need to move the closing parens onto next line? 21:57:55 dim: no. it is not common and not needed. 21:58:04 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:58:17 well CCL would fail to compile with a syntax error until I did that 21:58:33 no. 21:58:39 i'm sorry. there must be something else. 21:58:46 -!- mathrick__ is now known as mathrick 21:58:55 that would only be good news, pasting 21:59:26 mikos [~mikos@5ac8890e.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:08 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129091 22:01:42 hehe, you're even using loop here 22:01:54 i can assure you that #+ and #- work regardless of line breaks 22:02:02 i'm using simple loops quite often. 22:02:29 H4ns: what if the file is created in the meantime? 22:02:48 stassats`: then the open will fail 22:03:02 stassats`: that is the api of make-temp-file-name, however bad one may find it. 22:03:59 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.56.170.85] has joined #lisp 22:04:37 brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:04 H4ns: ok it's compiling fine with your addition 22:05:22 will test tomorrow 22:06:03 dim: good luck 22:06:43 you need to open the file, so why not (loop thereis (open name :if-exists nil ...)) 22:06:49 well if I decide to start a non-locally-edited-and-broken PostgreSQL it might be easy enough to test :) 22:06:57 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.199.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:07:38 stassats`: that'd be better, no doubt. 22:08:39 (loop for pathname = (make-pathname ...) until (open ...) finally (return pathname)) 22:08:44 maybe something like that even 22:09:02 you need a stream 22:09:04 mmm, will thereis embed the returning? 22:09:34 _or_ you could call the function open-temp-file and do it right there. 22:10:27 (open (format nil "~a.csv" (make-temp-file-name)) :direction :output 22:10:27 :if-does-not-exist :create))) 22:10:42 it's used this way, so I don't need a stream back stassats` 22:10:44 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:11:07 use it another way 22:11:24 it's a good parallel with the case when you're given the filename, though, this way 22:14:11 dim: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129090#1 22:14:35 dim: note that (pathname stream) on an open file stream returns you the pathname. you'll want that to delete the file. 22:15:35 the current code doesn't delete the temp file explicitely 22:15:51 it only closes the stream 22:15:59 why use let and when and return instead of just THEREIS? 22:16:21 stassats`: same question, and same preference over thereis 22:16:24 stassats`: i don't understand loop. just annotate the paste 22:16:38 -!- behelit [~behelit@c213-89-59-224.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:18:04 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082B8BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:25 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129090#2 22:19:33 Error: An allocation request for 10125016 bytes caused a need for 22544384 more bytes of heap. This request cannot be satisfied because you have hit the Allegro CL Free Express heap limit. (...) 22:19:35 -!- daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082A268.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:19:46 tomekd789: \o/ 22:19:51 Do you know about a simple free implemenation of CL 22:20:07 without such (...) limitations? 22:20:18 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129090#3 22:20:21 I use CCL and sometimes SBCL, you should be fine with them 22:20:29 dim: looks proper, except that the (or directory *...) can be just *temporary-directory* 22:20:30 you don't need :if-does-not-exist :create with :directory :output 22:20:50 -!- zhangkaizhao [~zhangkaiz@27.47.17.172] has quit [Quit: ] 22:20:53 dim, are they difficult to learn? 22:20:59 H4ns: ok, you'll recognize your own code here though :) 22:21:18 dim: sure, i'm not blaming anyone. 22:21:19 tomekd789: they are common lisp, they don't require any learning 22:21:29 stassats: "haha" 22:21:32 tomekd789: I'm finding CL uneasy to learn but I wouldn't say that's becuse of either ccl nor sbcl 22:21:36 stassats, I guess so, I mean the environment 22:21:37 tomekd789: they don't come with a graphical ide. 22:21:46 H4ns: yeah, coo, sorry about that mirror effect then 22:22:11 well, if you want a perfect open-temp-file, then add :element-type and :external-format keys too 22:22:13 tomekd789: http://www.cliki.net/Getting%20Started 22:22:18 -!- mikos [~mikos@5ac8890e.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 22:22:28 and the possibility for :direction :io 22:22:47 and any implementation specific parameters 22:22:57 tensorpudding__ [~michael@99.32.56.172] has joined #lisp 22:22:59 stassats: a specific one is good enough here, I guess, and thanks for the :if-does-not-exist bits 22:23:04 and a pony! 22:23:25 well, just &rest with apply will do 22:24:04 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m83-185-142-102.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 22:24:40 some cleanup http://paste.lisp.org/display/129090#4 22:24:54 -!- Nisstyre is now known as nisstyre 22:25:05 -!- nisstyre is now known as Nisstyre 22:25:17 stassats: it's not even exported! it's not part of the lib! 22:25:53 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.56.170.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:25:55 dim: i like it. even the thereis is nice 22:26:15 see, loop has some merits :) 22:26:37 and thanks a lot, it's a good teamwork here 22:27:01 makes me feel good about both the community and the language ;) 22:28:08 the only bad thing I can say about CL is that I'm now 36 notifications behind on el-get and I should get back to spending some time on it real son now 22:28:36 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129090#5 22:28:51 nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:22 H4ns, this cliki.net looks really great. Thanks! 22:29:33 stassats: are you ignoring other keys when doing that? 22:29:41 and now - good night. :) 22:29:44 -!- tomekd789 [tomekd789@hbm66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Wychodzi] 22:29:53 dim: what other keys? 22:30:13 the &allow-other-keys other keys 22:30:43 to correct my own mistake: the function should be called open-temporary-file 22:30:45 :) 22:31:02 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:31:07 open-temporary, and with-open-temporary-file 22:31:17 right. 22:31:36 what library is that in? 22:32:15 dim: i don't understand your question 22:32:29 renamed open-temporary because it's not returning a file but a stream 22:32:49 dim: the other keys are in the &rest parameter. 22:33:00 stassats: I'm wondering if &rest will eat &allow-other-keys elements so that apply is able to pass then down 22:33:16 thx H4ns, that was indeed the question 22:33:39 -!- dekuked [6c14d93b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.20.217.59] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:34:22 as in: i seem to remember hearing something like with-temporary-file from a library somewhere 22:35:07 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129090#6 22:35:13 madnificent: dim is working on postmodern and we've talked him into not pulling in another dependency for this. 22:35:27 what about making generate-random-name another key argument? 22:35:36 H4ns: which doesn't even exist 22:36:08 osicat has no mkstemp for windows 22:37:06 and you probably don't want to check infinitely 22:37:24 (generate-random-name #.*package*:generate-random-name) 22:37:31 can you do that on a function you're not even exporting? 22:38:06 -!- mel0on [1000@h-91-136.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:38:42 do what? invalid syntax? 22:39:11 I think I saw that form somewhere 22:39:43 what is it even supposed to do? 22:39:57 all symbols are read into the current package 22:40:01 reference current package at read time 22:40:09 this doesn't make sense even if it were legal 22:40:10 dim: you think (generate-random-name 'generate-random-name) 22:40:17 I read that in an asd file maybe then 22:40:31 #.*package* is valid, what you showed isn't 22:40:37 ok 22:40:49 (generate-random-name #'generate-random-name) then 22:41:01 dim: or that. 22:41:02 well, it's actually valid, if you have a package named *package* 22:41:19 hehe, I don't 22:42:03 H4ns: what library is it in otherwise? 22:42:16 madnificent: i don't know. 22:42:20 ah, ok 22:42:27 madnificent: maybe this should become trivial-temporary-file 22:42:45 it _is_ actually a problem that i've run into several times. 22:42:50 i thought it could fit in alexandria 22:42:58 *madnificent* too 22:42:59 i'm reading the code of mkstemp, they claim "We use a clever algorithm to get hard-to-predict names." 22:43:14 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129090#7 22:43:29 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-124-10.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:43:46 H4ns: doing trivial-temporary-file out of that is a good idea but means we've lost the initial point not to bring in another dependency 22:43:48 dim: the counter? 22:44:21 dim: true - but it would be trivial enough to just copy in when an extra dependency is unwanted. 22:44:24 stassats: plug your own generate-random-name 22:44:34 H4ns: that too 22:44:46 the default generate-random-name should be better, it will produce very bad result if the random returns a low number 22:44:57 dim: and it become less trivial when it tries to incorporate stuff like the process id or other platform dependent information into the name 22:45:16 stassats: "very bad" because? 22:45:17 do we have an easy portable UUID generation code here? 22:45:33 dim: no 22:45:42 too bad, that would have solved it. 22:45:54 H4ns: high possibility of collisions 22:46:10 but seriously, how would the loop be extended to limit the number of tries? 22:46:36 i guess i know 22:46:52 repeat +max-tries+ ... finally (error "couldn't create a temporary file") 22:46:52 (loop for tries below 10 thereis ...) should do it 22:47:25 stassats: that looks good. put some information into the error message, too 22:47:55 first, we need to define a condition class 22:48:24 I need to learn about conditions, and CLOS, but I also need to get some sleep 22:48:25 stassats: right. why not do it properly? 22:48:36 dim: you've said that a while ago 22:48:38 ... 5000 thousand lines later... 22:48:49 I'll be happy to quickload your trivial-temporary-file lib tomorrow guys :) 22:48:50 stassats: are you typing it? or should i? 22:48:57 H4ns: no, i'm not 22:49:56 man mkstemp 22:49:56 http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man3/mkstemp.3.html 22:50:02 gn, and thx much 22:50:08 goodnight dim 22:50:49 they've made man pages awful, i like opensteps htmls better 22:52:14 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.238.48.84] has joined #lisp 22:52:20 i'll need to snitch its index somewhere 22:52:34 and not openstep, but open group 22:55:33 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129090#8 22:56:29 H4ns: in w-o-t-s you will likely want to have access to the file's temporary path 22:56:39 madnificent: (pathname stream) 22:56:39 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.130.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:57:07 -!- asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879A7F.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:57:40 ah, that's nice 22:57:55 you're putting it on github, i presume? 22:58:25 S11001001 [~sirian@c-98-216-249-29.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:29 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@c-98-216-249-29.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:58:29 S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has joined #lisp 22:58:32 not yet. 22:58:42 i wonder about the package name 22:59:02 (trivial-temporary-file:with-temporary-file () is a no. 22:59:15 -!- Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.11.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:59:57 *madnificent* finds it ok, but he tends to :use packages 23:00:02 (temporary:open ...) and (temporary:with-open-file ...) maybe? 23:00:26 temporary seems like a name that could easily clash with something people make to try something out 23:00:27 that is kind of tempting, but then you can't :use the package. 23:00:59 10 sounds like a low number, mkstemp in glibc does it 238328 times 23:01:17 stassats: muha! for whatever that is supposed to be good for. 23:01:33 with-temporary-file sounds right for the package name. many people call :use package 23:01:36 stassats: "i tried 23 thousand times, then gave up". that is nothing but silly. 23:01:46 sorry, for the macro name, not the package name 23:01:48 on a large multi-user system, that's not really unreasonable 23:02:37 how is it different from using osicat? 23:02:46 maxm: it works on windows. 23:03:13 serious question, as it seems we starting to really fragment into 100th of tiny libs 23:03:36 maxm: since quicklisp í don't care anymore :) 23:03:53 imho discussion on some mailing list and putting it into one of the more establisehd libs is better then yet another tiny lib 23:04:21 alexandria might work. 23:04:25 madnificent: well the problem is even with quicklisp, if there 5 different things that have temp file in them, you have to try them all, and quicklisp searching is not the best yet 23:04:30 H4ns: and it'd be nice if it would understand XXXXX, like mkstemp does 23:04:37 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 23:05:20 stassats: a format string would be right, i think 23:05:21 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-95.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:05:25 i'll be back in a bit 23:06:57 H4ns: also imho need generate file name should be exported, as well as API to to get system's native temp dir 23:07:03 maxm: you mean the issue of finding which dependency is pulling in a particular package? 23:07:12 H4ns: coz one of use cases may be creating a temp dir, not temp file 23:07:45 you could just publish it and extend it when it's needed. 23:07:54 madnificent: no, finding the library to use for particular functionality 23:08:02 perhaps that's not very lispy 23:08:28 maxm: i don't see how small libraries make that much harder. you can search the functions through that new search engine. 23:09:21 well you end up with 30 different dependencies, and a small one-feature lib, is much more likely to be abandoned then larger one 23:09:58 it's portable, it doesn't matter if it's abandoned 23:10:21 plus, you don't load all sorts of crap or have to search through a big system, in order to find that little thing you need. 23:10:48 maxm: alright, you'll be the one pushing it into big libraries 23:11:22 *madnificent* wouldn't mind it being available in alexandria 23:11:28 maxm: individual functionalities are just as easily abandonned in large libraries. 23:12:38 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:13:13 madnificent: btw what is this search thing you mentioned? did quicklip got a way to apropos inside the system's sources? 23:13:29 -!- jdz [~jdz@host211-15-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:13:55 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0EF2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:15:32 I was intrigued enough to look at glibc per stassats's comment; 238328 is, indeed, perfectly sensible 23:16:11 S11001001: why? 23:16:23 maxm: no, it was an external thing. i saw it on github, let me search. 23:16:50 maxm: i don't think it returned the system name (yet) 23:17:20 H4ns: it used to be 62, the complete set of possibilities, but that was too many, so they just took 62³ instead 23:17:41 maxm: it was at http://lisp-search.acceleration.net/ source is at https://github.com/AccelerationNet/manifest-search-web 23:17:41 with 6 Xs, there can be 62^6 variants, and mkstemp is used in every program, which can be easily exhasted on a busy system 23:18:13 theoretically you always provide your own prefix/suffix 23:19:34 i'd argue that instead of increasing the number of attempt, i'd have the developers fix their program. 23:20:14 in particular on a very busy system, it would be rather silly to further increase the load by polling for a free temporary file name. 23:21:25 10 is a very low number 23:21:53 yeah. 100 is better. i've also pulled the internal-real-time into the name 23:22:04 not sure about the template, though. 23:22:39 i don't see why you wouldn't default to a really high number. if you're doing this on a very large scale, you know something is going to take a long time. there are no good ways to solve the bad code. 23:22:45 maybe the prefix should not be called prefix, but format, and default to "temp-~A" 23:23:13 madnificent: i tend to like code that fails fast 23:23:40 madnificent: the most likely cause for a failure would not be name contention, but inability to write to the temporary directory. 23:23:41 *madnificent* prefers code that i can expect to work statistically 23:24:21 it takes 3 seconds here to check 238328 files 23:24:31 i bet it's faster in C 23:24:55 that would make 10000 a reasonable amount of tries 23:24:59 i'd guess 23:25:19 three fucking seconds keeping the system busy when it is already loaded? that does not sound like a good thing to do. 23:25:35 but who am i to judge? i'll just set it to 10000 23:25:44 lisp is slow, whatcha gonna do 23:27:33 H4ns: 10000 would be .126 seconds, that's sane. no? 23:28:31 madnificent: not at all. 126 milliseconds are ages. 23:28:50 for discovering something that's likely a configuration issue, i don't mind 23:28:52 you can't convince me, but i'm not arguing. it'll be 10000 23:29:19 a failing system every 126 ms is not good 23:29:48 on a busy box, wasting many milliseconds to get a temp file is not good 23:29:49 Froward [~uh-oh@c-71-200-123-212.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:49 stassats: like H4ns said, it'll likely fail because you don't have access to the folder 23:30:17 on a busy box, you want to make sure that you're not wasting additional time that you could easily NOT waste 23:30:33 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:38 so setting the limit high papers over a programming problem. 23:30:48 shouldn't you make sure it by profiling or whatnot, and not by crashing? 23:30:52 (potentially) 23:31:12 stassats: you'll rarely profile high-load situations. 23:31:13 graceful degradation 23:31:22 fail fast 23:31:23 :) 23:31:27 whats wrong with &key num-tries? 23:31:27 we'll not converge. 23:31:45 if you had an alterantive for w-t-f, wouldn't you use it anyways? or if it really was optional, lower the limit just in case (and probably throw warnings when it fails) 23:31:46 from trivial to convoluted in no time. 23:32:12 H4ns: if the low responsiveness of a system is a failure, then it'll happen fast 23:32:28 H4ns: i had expected all my willpower trying not to make unhelpful comment about it :-) 23:32:35 expanded rather 23:32:41 maxm: i've implemented you suggestion 23:32:48 youR 23:32:49 oh yeah, why is max-tries a constant? 23:33:11 sorry, lag 23:33:30 stassats needs to explain :p 23:34:12 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:34:18 i'll take a slow working system instead of a non-working system any time 23:34:42 hm, i'll try to create 238328 temporary files and see how slow mkstemp is 23:35:00 err, 56800235584 23:35:09 (good luck, eh) 23:35:23 over all that talk, we've overlooked that we're now having keyword arguments that are incompatible with open 23:35:42 so we need to put this into alexandria 23:35:55 <3 lisp overengineering <3 23:36:01 just pass :allow-other-keys t 23:36:07 not to be taken the wrong way, but when I find myself agonizing over the trite details like this, I try to (figuratively) slap myself, and do "eyes on the prize" thing... Similarly when doing a design meeting or meeting with a client 23:36:14 stassats: wow 23:36:26 we techies tend to go into crazy loop on these things 23:36:56 maxm: if it's reused, it's worth the hassle 23:37:32 stassats: what is that :allow-other-keys thing? i've read it before but forgot. 23:37:52 to ignore unrecognizable keywords 23:38:02 madnificent: well if you going to go through the hassle, and are worried about multi-user high-load system, then there are file modes, avoiding symlinks, etc etc.. Which are bigger security/stability threats then number of tries 23:38:12 stassats: sure, is that a feature of function invocation? 23:38:29 clhs 3.4.1.4.1 23:38:29 Suppressing Keyword Argument Checking: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dada.htm 23:38:42 maxm: i agree. though you shouldn't shy an argument about something small :) 23:38:54 hammer. 23:39:15 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129090#9 23:39:20 dim: btw did you found the way to do 3.4.1.4.1 thing in the info? coz I it makes it hard to lookup something ppl paste.. I'm thinking of hacking the coversion script to include them in the text 23:39:28 jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:48 alexandria:remove-from-plist would be better, of course 23:40:09 stassats: that is what i had thought. 23:40:30 it just shows that cl keywrods aren't really composable 23:40:38 H4ns: perhaps make +max-tries+ a special variable instead of a constant? in that case it can be shadowed in portions of the code. 23:40:40 work of art 23:41:06 you lose keyword checking for open-temporary, at remove-from-plist at least makes it easy not to lose it for open 23:41:09 or does that open you up to certain misuse? 23:41:30 madnificent: not at all. fair suggestion. 23:41:45 stassats: ok, so it becomes a proposed alexandria addition. 23:42:22 very cool 23:42:23 what's the record on most annotated paste? 23:43:48 defvar temporary-directory should be (or (and (find-package :asdf) (funcall (find-symbol (string 'getenv) "TEMP"))) or such 23:44:09 in fact it should be an exported function (system-temp-directory) 23:44:24 now i think i have to capture the value of *max-tries* into a slot of the signalled condition. yikes. 23:45:00 a restart, TRY-SOME-MORE 23:45:24 maxm: you suggest that i should just peek randomly for a getenv function? i'm not sure, opinions? 23:45:50 stassats: sounds funny 23:46:00 H4ns: well either that or require :asdf.. Actualy just require asdf, coz silly not to depend on it if your system has .asd file :-) 23:46:10 the TEMP suggestion btw so it works on windows 23:46:16 ok, i think the record for most annotations is 38 23:46:24 stassats: link? 23:46:36 maxm: we can't have a run-time dependency on asdf, no. 23:46:40 http://paste.lisp.org/display/97598 23:47:17 H4ns: then use the above thing, it works just tested: (funcall (find-symbol (string :getenv) :asdf) "PATH") 23:47:24 tougas [~Adium@64.238.96.125] has joined #lisp 23:47:28 sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 23:47:34 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-80-4.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:48 looks just like some log split into 39 pastes 23:47:49 err (when (find-package :asdf) (funcall (find-symbol (string :getenv) :asdf) "PATH")) 23:47:51 maxm: i'm reluctant. 23:48:13 there should be trivial-getenv 23:48:22 maxm: because then i'll have to deal with making sure that the environment variable contains a directory pathname 23:48:25 stassats: indeed. 23:48:29 H4ns: well hardcoded /tmp will for sure fail on windows 23:48:41 maxm: fair point. 23:50:00 maybe use the compile-time setting of TMPDIR or whatever the variable is called on windows? 23:50:29 H4ns: I think windows always puts it into envvar, was along time 23:51:15 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@31.163.221.123] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 23:52:24 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129090#10 23:52:31 i need to give it a break now. 23:52:45 with no windows support, it sucks anyway 23:53:09 a line break 23:53:12 this is mine code used in test http://paste.lisp.org/display/129093 23:53:22 I assume it works on windows, coz I have a few lispworks users 23:54:06 (ignore-errors (handler-case)) what's that? 23:54:38 donno, was in a hurry 23:55:06 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176343411.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 23:55:16 or actually may have been bad cut-n-paste or failure of my paredit-magic thing 23:55:18 weird 23:55:32 -!- ainm [~ainm@111.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:55:41 but anyway, the idea is right 23:55:59 mel0on [1000@h-91-136.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 23:59:41 ainm [~ainm@111.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp