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It's a big special case. 01:31:43 i am writing a macro to read a simple config of multiple 2 item lists where the first item is an accessor function and the 2nd is a value to write 01:32:15 <|3b|> ok, so you are passing the method name and value to the macro? 01:32:24 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:28 <|3b|> in that case just use ` and , as normal 01:33:30 <|3b|> and CDR isn't the "second" item in a list.. it is the entire rest of the list after the first item 01:34:19 ok, i'll try some more 01:34:38 -!- horieyui [~horieyui@115.173.241.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:34:46 -!- timack [~timack@hlfx58-2a-202.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:34:49 <|3b|> if you paste what you have to lisppaste or somewhere, we can give more specific answers 01:34:58 ok great 01:40:33 Kovensky [kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:43:54 -!- snits [~snits@75-167-15-187.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:44:38 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:47 sysfault [exalted@c-69-141-108-208.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:48 -!- sysfault [exalted@c-69-141-108-208.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:46:48 sysfault [exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 01:49:13 -!- achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:52:21 antgreen [~user@CPE0021910f07ac-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:53:14 pnq [~nick@AC822D90.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:54:55 optikalmouse [~user@bas2-toronto10-2925235839.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:56:59 I have a .asd in xyz directory. how do I load that up using quicklisp? 01:57:22 symlink the .asd into the path that quicklisp/sbcl looks at? 01:58:05 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 01:58:07 symlink the directory into quicklisp/local-projects/ 01:58:19 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:58:46 <|3b|> http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/faq.html#local-project 01:59:38 optikalmouse: i used this method i think i read on Xach's blog: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Configuring-ASDF.html 02:00:13 axion: ok cool thanks 02:01:19 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.180.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:01:44 |3b|: http://codepad.org/8RSwKjdo i can't get the setf to compile 02:02:35 <|3b|> axion: try (site-config (port 8080) (root "/))? 02:02:50 <|3b|> actually, nevermind.. that macro is wrong 02:03:00 oh 02:03:24 <|3b|> that's how i would expect to pass those args to an &body argument though 02:03:25 Why'd you use that nested backtick before the setf form? 02:03:43 hmm. what was the form to enforce types again? 02:03:50 <|3b|> Bike: because the macro is broken :p 02:03:56 not sure i was trying all sorts of things all day 02:04:03 to make it so that a particular function rejects anything but a 'string, say. 02:04:32 check-type? etypecase? 02:04:38 |3b|: well I know that :P. Just want to know what kind of thought process is behind that. 02:06:01 ok I just did a symlink of my projects into ~/quicklisp/local-projects but they won't load up. do I have to tell quicklisp to update its list of systems or what? 02:06:10 noumena [~user@70.134.72.101] has joined #lisp 02:06:32 bingo, thanks. 02:06:35 (check-type) 02:07:45 lichtblau: not sure if this makes sense, but some sort of find-definition/find-rule interface to cxml-rng would be nice for validating subsets of the document as one goes about building it up 02:08:31 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:08:43 <|3b|> axion: http://codepad.org/DlS6AnU5 is closer, but that macro seems a bit excessive even if it works 02:09:12 <|3b|> axion: might be easier to just add initargs to the class and create it with the right values to start with 02:09:43 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.180.219] has joined #lisp 02:10:07 agreed 02:10:15 <|3b|> axion: also, you should probably be using DEFVAR to create that *config* var rather than SETF (unless there is more code elsewhere that defines it) 02:11:28 i'm trying to abstract a user-centric config that is loaded external from the project when a function is called 02:12:31 <|3b|> with initargs, you could store the args in a plist (:port 8080 :root "/") and use APPLY #'REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE on that list to reconfigure it 02:12:56 nice, i'll look into that then 02:23:43 jiggliemon [~jiggliemo@pool-173-58-9-84.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:44 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-219.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:25:40 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 02:29:25 heh that is such an elegant approach 02:29:30 thank you 02:36:46 huangjs [~user@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 02:40:43 -!- sysfault [exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:41:10 Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.2.40] has joined 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[Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:52:13 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.202.245] has joined #lisp 04:52:59 -!- c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.238.20.167] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:59:37 SurlyFrog1 [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:59:47 -!- SurlyFrog1 [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:02:47 felideon [~felideon@184.105.242.75] has joined #lisp 05:04:19 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:04:24 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:04:37 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 05:05:04 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 05:06:27 -!- tashbear [~tash@unaffiliated/el-tash/x-7763973] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:12:42 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 05:14:24 republican_devil [~g@pool-108-13-218-184.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:34 :) 05:14:35 lisp 05:14:44 I wish there was a database in lisp. 05:14:54 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:15:12 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 05:17:19 well there's AllegroGraph 05:17:49 commercial product however 05:21:31 -!- les [~les@unaffiliated/les] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:21:45 metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 05:21:58 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 05:25:41 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:25:55 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:26:31 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 05:32:16 -!- metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Quit: metaphysician] 05:32:19 yeah 05:32:25 love free software not closed source 05:32:33 dont wana buy something else aside from microosft 05:33:00 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-245.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:33:23 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 05:33:24 -!- davlaps [~davlaps@107-0-204-137-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 05:34:17 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has joined #lisp 05:34:26 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-245.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:35:33 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:37:21 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has quit [Client Quit] 05:37:31 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:37:52 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 05:38:13 lm12 [~lm12@cpe-174-097-230-205.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:39:22 I believe there's cl-sql 05:39:29 There's also elephant 05:41:16 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:47:10 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 05:51:15 attila_lendvai 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[~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:03:50 yeah 06:03:56 idea is to avoid postgresql 06:04:00 and friends 06:04:09 looking for somethign mroe liek prevayler or magma 06:05:27 minion: cl-prevalence 06:05:29 cl-prevalence: cl-prevalence is an implementation in Common Lisp of the Object Prevalence concept using both XML and s-expression based serialization. http://www.cliki.net/cl-prevalence 06:06:04 minion: rucksack 06:06:06 rucksack: Rucksack is a persistence library for Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/rucksack 06:06:08 yeah 06:06:12 I know about cl-prev 06:06:17 not sur eif its maintained 06:06:18 hmm 06:06:31 minion: bknr 06:06:32 bknr: bknr is a meta-projects containing an ObjectStore (bknr-datastore), a template system, a web framework and support for images, blogs, billboards, etc. http://www.cliki.net/bknr 06:07:24 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:07:49 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 06:11:56 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 06:13:34 oow thats interesting 06:14:14 work software is really bad 06:14:22 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:14:23 I might try and rewrite some stuff in lisp 06:15:13 DataLinkDroid [~david@CPE-121-216-16-228.lnse1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:15:17 -!- achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:15:29 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-190-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:17:36 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-245.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:19:12 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:22:00 les [moreorles@lesharris.com] has joined #lisp 06:22:01 -!- les [moreorles@lesharris.com] has quit [Changing host] 06:22:01 les [moreorles@unaffiliated/les] has joined #lisp 06:22:02 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 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[~mint@ip70-191-88-25.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:43 mathslinux [~user@117.79.233.240] has joined #lisp 06:35:14 -!- mathslinux [~user@117.79.233.240] has left #lisp 06:36:04 -!- mint_ [~mint@ip70-191-88-25.sb.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 06:36:44 metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 06:36:59 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 06:37:16 Good morning 06:38:05 -!- kami` is now known as kami 06:40:25 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-85.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:44:01 -!- irus [~user@58.239.196.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:44:58 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:48:08 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 06:48:53 ACC__ [~ACC@118.113.40.29] has joined #lisp 06:49:37 good morning, may your day be lispy 06:50:34 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 06:52:35 -!- metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:53:04 -!- pnq [~nick@AC822D90.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:53:18 metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 07:16:49 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:17:28 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:18:04 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 07:19:47 two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:58 how can i translate a keyword symbol into a quoted symbol? 07:23:31 (list 'quote keyword).. but it's likely that you didn't mean that 07:25:21 i have a function that takes a plist and runs (some-function "value" 'key) 07:25:31 for each pair 07:26:11 jakky [jokk@2001:470:33:2::1ce] has joined #lisp 07:26:19 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:27:04 and i would like to remove the colon 07:27:23 fantasticsid [~user@2001:da8:8001:708:7c00:d549:ab1a:d1d2] has joined #lisp 07:27:45 why would you like to "remove the colon" 07:27:57 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:29:03 because i have functions named without them id like to call as the keys in the plist without colon 07:29:17 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 07:30:10 Keyword symbols are just the same as other symbols, except that they're in the special keyword package. "removing the colon" isn't really the right way to think about it. 07:30:20 one way is (find-symbol (symbol-name keyword) "PACKAGE-NAME") 07:30:48 but it may make more sense to have an explicit mapping between the keyword symbols and the function names 07:31:05 or just not use keyword symbols, but the actual function names 07:31:06 -!- jakky [jokk@2001:470:33:2::1ce] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:31:57 also, what Bike said.. learn about packages and symbols 07:33:36 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:38:57 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:39:29 847372 07:39:32 847372/412 07:39:44 (/ 847372/412 83) 07:39:56 Sorry... Wrong buffer. 07:41:20 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-17-90.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:41:56 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-240-217-184.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:26 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:45:36 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:45:59 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.61.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:47:35 -!- Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.2.40] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:49:52 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-134-182.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:33 Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.17.209] has joined #lisp 07:50:56 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-159-37.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:51:43 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:52:40 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 07:56:22 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 07:56:37 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-134-182.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:57:10 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-136-216.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:09 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has joined #lisp 08:06:43 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:06:55 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 08:09:42 benny [~benny@i577A1B25.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:10:46 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:15:26 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:16:07 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 08:18:50 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-136-216.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:19:16 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-132-29.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:06 08:22:06 Hi all. Does anybody use cl-xmpp? 08:23:23 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:24:16 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 08:24:28 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-175-22-210.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 08:25:18 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:25:27 asvil: I have tried. 08:25:40 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 08:25:45 asvil: And I remember, that something was fuc*ed up. 08:27:59 -!- fantasticsid [~user@2001:da8:8001:708:7c00:d549:ab1a:d1d2] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:29:52 otwieracz: I have the same situation. ok, I will continue searching library or bindings to xmpp 08:30:09 -!- Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:30:18 asvil: There's no alternatives, IIRC. 08:30:20 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 08:31:16 trivial-xmpp, but repo is unavailable now. 08:32:00 About (maphash function hash-table), is there something I can do inside function to stop iterating? 08:32:02 Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has joined #lisp 08:35:03 -!- clintm_ [~cmoore@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:38:48 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:38:48 alvis``` [~user@tx-184-6-178-38.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:25 -!- alvis`` [~user@tx-184-6-178-38.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:39:31 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 08:39:57 sn0rri [~sn0rri@athedsl-168492.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 08:46:04 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:46:10 -!- metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:46:37 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 08:48:23 metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 08:49:39 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 08:52:35 I think ~. 08:55:10 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:56:24 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.194.106.191] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.95.1] 08:56:52 I figured it out (block ... (maphash (lambda ... (return-from ...) 08:58:23 -!- metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Quit: metaphysician] 09:01:43 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:11:18 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:12:02 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 09:16:24 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:17:58 add^_ [~add^_^@m83-185-142-102.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 09:19:02 tcr1 [~tcr@46.184.160.203] has joined #lisp 09:20:08 -!- tcr1 is now known as tcr 09:20:28 hey there 09:20:29 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:21:13 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 09:22:19 -!- two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:32:39 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:33:27 froggey 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15:34:50 ApeShot [~user@rrcs-24-106-184-123.se.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:34:57 Anyone using parenscript on Allegro? 15:35:13 I cannot make it transcode all-lowercase symbols as lowercase variables 15:35:25 eg element is transcoded to ELEMENT 15:35:33 but this-element is transcoded correctly as thisElement 15:35:40 This is allegro specific behavior 15:35:47 On SBCL element -> elememnt 15:35:50 element, I mean 15:36:49 The issue is almost certainly to do with allegrocl's surprisingly frustrating modern mode and its partial support for named readtables clashing with parenscript's dependency on an "cross platform" named-readtables implementation 15:37:32 I have tried creating a readtable for my code which has the readtable-case :preserve 15:37:40 I've also tried using the parenscript readtable 15:37:49 nothing works 15:37:58 Could also be an issue with *printer-case* 15:39:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:40:20 apeshot: using allegro modern? 15:40:36 and yes readtable case matters 15:41:18 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.54] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:41:37 Fare: yes 15:41:42 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:52 Fare: I've tried several different readtable-cases, however 15:41:59 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:41:59 None seem to have an effect 15:42:13 Fare: I am using named-readtables, the library, to set the case 15:43:03 So I define a readtable with (:case :preserve) and then use in-readtable at the top of my parescript file 15:43:20 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.54] has joined #lisp 15:43:48 I'd guess parenscript is "fixing" the symbols with - in them during mangling 15:43:52 But they are being read as all caps too 15:44:25 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA27863.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:44:54 Also important, the symbol TEST, say is transcoded as test 15:45:04 So that implies some readtable somewhere is in :invert mode 15:45:12 But not according to any of the readtable definitions 15:45:12 mathslinux [~user@117.79.233.240] has joined #lisp 15:45:43 -!- mathslinux [~user@117.79.233.240] has left #lisp 15:46:25 is the bug in the UI or in the underlying symbol? what's the symbol-name? 15:47:03 just a sec 15:47:44 (list (symbol-name 'x) (parenscript:ps x )) 15:47:44 is 15:47:50 -!- alvis``` [~user@tx-184-6-178-38.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:47:52 ("x" "X;") 15:48:08 So the symbol-name is "x" 15:49:07 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:53:34 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56:30 You know, maybe this is somehow the "correct" behavior 15:56:57 I just tested it on sbcl and it happens there too 15:57:06 my sbcl/quicklisp setup is compiling fasls every time it loads my app, despite the fact that the fasl files exist 15:57:09 not sure how to debug 15:57:35 Sounds like its looking in the wrong place for the cache 15:57:55 so it has separate ideas about where to read and write fasl files? 15:58:22 Never mind, on my issue 15:58:36 that would explain what I'm seeing, but seems weird 15:58:37 encode-js-identifier does encode "x" as "X" but (ps x) is "x" 15:59:08 On Franz (ps x) is "X" 15:59:28 this sucks because I can't make any library calls without making them all caps 15:59:40 God, I could kill the people at Franz for "modern mode." 16:00:42 apart from that problem.. I have huchentoot/sbcl running on redhat's free openshift hosting platform so people can host lisp webapps for free 16:01:04 http://lisp2-atgren.rhcloud.com 16:01:10 oops 16:01:16 http://lisp2-atgreen.rhcloud.com 16:01:18 guymann [~charles@64-252-121-252.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:47 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:04:29 just about to post instructions on github 16:05:08 fyi, there's a heroku setup for common lisp too 16:05:54 bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 16:06:05 yes.. so now there's competition 16:06:14 it's all good 16:06:18 I'm curious, I have a very thin class that I use as a wrapper to a cffi foreign pointer. all the wrapper class does is associate an informative human readable name to the pointer (e.g. NSObject) 16:06:37 but really, I only ever want to use the underlying pointer when I manipulate this object 16:07:16 in C, you can specify a type cast operator so that whenever you do var something = myObjcet it implicity does var something = myObject.pointer() 16:07:25 would there be an equivalent in CLOS? 16:08:03 (I'm asking because I can't see how it could be... but maybe I don't know something) 16:08:10 ainm [~ainm@163.Red-88-18-194.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:12 You might be able to write a setf to sort of get that effect 16:08:14 Not sure 16:08:22 Probably not what you want 16:08:31 yeah, I want in the other direction 16:09:10 Honestly, I think this has no answer, because in C it is the assignment operation that does the type translation, but in lisp, there is no such thing as an assignment. 16:09:11 CLOS can't really dispatch on the expected output type of an call 16:09:34 You can write a monad 16:09:41 And the syntax for monad usage 16:09:43 instead of a class? 16:09:59 Well, your object is an instance of a simple monad 16:10:02 It wraps the pointer 16:10:48 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 16:10:57 bind is (lambda (mv mf) (funcall mf (access-pointer-of mv))) 16:11:05 and return is (wrap pointer) 16:11:16 It is also applicative 16:11:20 Consider the following function 16:11:35 (lambda (f v) (funcall f (pointer-of v))) 16:11:39 that is fmap 16:11:50 You can at least define such a function and use it everywhere 16:12:07 But you can also write a few macros to make this a syntactic rather than semantic abstraction. 16:12:21 Probably not worth the overhead 16:12:48 that fmap above is wrong, actually 16:12:51 ah, I think your point about Macros is probably correct. 16:13:11 (lambda (f v) (instance-of-wrapper (funcall f (unwrap v)))) 16:13:21 about the fmap, maybe I'm not getting it. Let's say I have this function that is some real code: (defun do-something (class) (foo (class-pointer class))) 16:13:33 how would I put the monad to use in tehre? 16:13:44 lisp has no monads 16:14:22 and i don't see what's the problem, you just need to call POINTER in the points where it interacts with CFFI 16:14:33 It is somewhat involved 16:14:41 You can look at my monad code in elisp 16:14:43 https://github.com/VincentToups/emacs-utils/blob/master/monads.el 16:14:44 yeah, I'm just sharpening my skill. Seeing if things can be done better. 16:14:57 stassats`: all of this is being keyboard-macro'ed anyways. 16:14:58 But what I recommend is to write your macros as you go 16:15:13 And use the fact that this is a monad or applicative instance to guide you 16:15:29 But don't try to solve the whole abstract problem of dealing with wrapped data 16:16:01 yeah. I'm not. I was just wondering if there was a method to achieve the C trick, which is quite useful in many ways. 16:16:22 why bring monads into the discussion? this is lisp, not haskell 16:17:05 monads work in lisp, too 16:17:23 Fare: but that doesn't mean that you need them left and right 16:17:58 I think ApeShot noticed that Shaftoe's problem admitted a monodic solution 16:18:09 it's not a common lisp parlance to describe things as "monads" 16:18:37 stassats`: because monads are awesome 16:18:40 if the goal is to confuse people in the shortest amount of text possible, then alright 16:19:23 stassats`: I admit it can be confusing, but note that I do not advocate that Shaftoe solve his problem this way, only that it has this structure, which might guide thought on the right solution 16:19:34 The essence of this issue is that his data is wrapped 16:19:48 This implies things about its usage which should guide his programming 16:20:05 My suggestions are not extremely practical 16:20:09 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 16:20:14 But on the other hand, I use monads in Lisp all the time 16:20:23 It isn't as if they are impractical 16:20:24 it shows 16:21:55 -!- ApeShot [~user@rrcs-24-106-184-123.se.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:01 the only explanation of monads that ever made much sense to me, not being a haskell programmer, was drewc's paper accompanying smug. 16:23:03 Shaftoe: Yeah, sounds like a forwarding pointer. 16:23:45 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 16:24:08 Shaftoe: One solution would be instead of packing the metadata with the data itself, is to put the data into a weak hash-table. 16:24:16 tcr: indeed. The only alternative I was able to think of was to leave the pointer bare, but somehow intercept print-object calls and on the fly slap a name on it 16:24:21 hah. 16:24:24 yes 16:24:25 Fade: monads are just another level of indirection 16:24:51 maybe I'll do that. 16:24:55 Shaftoe: How would you do the thing in C? 16:25:05 Did you really talk about plain C? 16:25:10 for years I wrote them off as a mind-hack so that haskell programmers could convince themselves to do I/O 16:25:54 Fade: it's actually a pretty nifty pattern to describe sequences of actions. 16:25:55 the simplest and most straightforward way is to just call POINTER whenever you need 16:26:33 tcr: no, I mean c++, obviously, since I Was talking about an oop technique 16:26:34 pkhuong: *nod* 16:27:49 tcr, stassats`: just pouring myself some more coffee, I did realize that there's no point in packing the metadata since print-object is an inherently seldom used function (REPL). I might as well do the CFFI lookup of the name every single time I use print-object. 16:28:24 old habits, I guess. 16:28:37 you just want to pass bare pointers around? 16:29:01 yeah. have them have their own type, but yes cffi pointers. 16:29:06 He wants some foreign pointers be printed specially 16:29:07 -!- sysfault [exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:29:19 can you subclass foreign pointers? 16:29:21 pointer is a wrong word, they're handles. I get them from cffi and I feed them to cffi. I never dereference them 16:29:57 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA07E7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:29:59 stassats`: you're asking me? I'm not sure what you're asking. 16:30:35 Shaftoe: can you make sure the pointers you have are your pointers? what if another application uses CFFI and pointers, your print-object method would interfere with it 16:30:47 is this conformant behaviour? On SBCL 1.0.55.mumble (typep -0 '(mod 10)) => T 16:30:55 lichtblau: around? 16:30:59 unless you can have a separate class for pointers, of course 16:31:00 mon_key: why wouldn't it be? 16:31:22 (= -0 0) => T 16:31:29 stassats`: yes, that would be not good. But I'm *assuming* I can handle print-object based on a defctype declaration, no? 16:31:34 even if the defctype is just :pointer. 16:31:41 pkhuong: stassats`: i can see how it would be. just making sure 16:32:15 Shaftoe: you can do manual dispatch in the method 16:32:30 but if an implementation use print-object to print pointers itself? 16:32:51 stassats`: you mean taht I can only specialize on :pointer type, and then I have to manually dispatch, right? 16:33:09 you can't specialize on types 16:33:15 this is the part where my knowledge of the lisp typesystem + cffi is weak. 16:33:19 I see. 16:33:20 ok. 16:33:31 specialization is on classes and EQL 16:33:45 I see. 16:34:10 so how do you even specialize on a pointer? (like, any pointer) ? 16:34:21 sysfault [exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 16:34:27 or is that the completely unspecialized print-object that handles that? 16:34:43 DEFTYPEs are not resolved in a specializer, right? 16:35:32 right 16:35:58 -!- sysfault [exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has left #lisp 16:36:17 Shaftoe: Is it mostly for developing, I guess? 16:36:50 tcr: it's so that when you play on the repl, you have useful information. 16:36:59 There's always *PRINT-PPRINT-DISPATCH* 16:37:00 what good is a repl if everything you manipulate is hex nubmers. 16:37:04 You could provide a custom  what pkhuong said 16:38:03 indeed, pretty-print might be my prefered direction. 16:38:05 i would just use a wrapper class 16:38:28 modifying how pointers are printed globally sounds rather fishy 16:38:37 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:38:41 there's one last thing that I Do that the wrapper calss achieves. I wrap my pointers into these so that I Can type-check them. so that people aren't passing the wrong handles to various apis. 16:38:49 alright. it was a nice educational tour. 16:38:50 He's going to restrict it to the subset of pointers that he owns 16:39:14 how can you know which pointers do you own? 16:39:20 tcr: I think stassats` point is that I might accidentally snag others' pointers along the way 16:39:26 in a hash-table? 16:39:30 create mayhem 16:39:30 yeah 16:39:39 which I agree with. 16:39:43 stassats`: I don't think that's always going to work. 16:40:12 pkhuong: a hash-table? 16:40:50 stassats`: cffi pointers are raw SAPs on SBCL. EQ doesn't work on SAPs, and EQL isn't modified to handle them either. 16:41:40 well, you can do sap-int on it 16:41:42 Shaftoe: wrap them in a CL structure or class; you'll avoid a metric ton of stupid bugs that way. 16:42:34 pkhuong: yes, that's what is already happening right now. this whole debate was an academic excercise in determining if there was an easier way to do it. The conclusion seems to be: no. 16:43:25 Shaftoe: how do you do memory management? 16:44:11 for the pointers? good question... it's not a quick answer. 16:44:36 where I Can, any interaction with the layer gets memory managed on the wrapper layer. and I build lisp data structure on the other end. 16:44:42 otherwise, the memory is managed by objc. 16:45:00 so, if I say lookup a class by name, it'll give me a pointer to a class. 16:45:17 I'm assuming that pointer is constant because it's a globally set thing. 16:45:30 iow: I can test equality by that pointer. 16:45:40 Is such and such class equal to such and such? 16:46:22 Granted, this is the simple bits. I haven't gotten to things that I know will be dynamic. But even then, I'm assuming that the objc will handle the memory management. i.e. to free the pointer, I will have to call an objc cffi 16:47:15 in general, objc does not have stuff like strings. 16:47:39 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 16:47:43 you pass around NSString's. Passing strings, even in objective c itself, is considered ffi. 16:47:50 So really, all I have to manage is object instance lifetimes. 16:48:23 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-190-92.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:31 so, it's not automatic? 16:48:42 or you plan on using finalizers? 16:49:00 stassats`: at the application layer it might be, but at this layer, it's barely more than assembly. so no, it's not automatic. 16:49:02 antgreen` [~user@CPE0021910f07ac-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:31 stassats`: no, it won't be that way, as far as I can tell. I haven't gotten to that part of the implemantation yet, but basically, it goes like this: 16:49:49 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-190-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:50:06 I can never allocate or free memory outside of the objc runtime and pass it *to* the objc runtime. 16:50:30 so whenever I would like something that can interact with the objcrt, I have to call the objcrt itself to get an instance of some class. 16:50:39 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE0021910f07ac-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:50:45 that instance, by default, always inherits memory management methods. 16:51:30 so let's say I want to create a string, then pass it to a window function, all I need to do is make a macro "with-string" -like, and do alloc at the top and release at the bottom. Both of which are actual calls to the runtime. 16:51:34 (so objc_sendMsg) 16:51:42 there's no explicit memory management going on. 16:51:47 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:52:09 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:09 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-133-31.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 16:52:26 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-133-31.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:30 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-190-92.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:53:03 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:53:04 so in lisp land, part of my reader macro structure or whatever, could be to have a "with- " macro where I define a bunch of lexical objcrt, and the macro at the end calls "release" on each of them. 16:53:12 MAGIC =) 16:53:19 and then it makes me coffee. 16:54:46 Bike [~Glossina@75-175-22-210.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:50 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.42.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:55:51 emacsuser [59d476e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.212.118.232] has joined #lisp 16:56:23 Steve__ [~Steve@c-71-195-232-180.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:03 what type of coffee 16:59:14 arabica, of course. 17:00:13 ok, good 17:00:38 I've been trying to understand the mysterious Y-coffeemaker recently 17:00:42 so what are the infamous changes on cffi you guys are working on? 17:04:53 -!- antgreen` [~user@CPE0021910f07ac-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:04:59 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 17:06:00 Shaftoe: how's your objc thing coming along? have you released any code yet? 17:06:27 slyrus: nah, just some rambling monologues = 17:06:28 ) 17:06:40 MORE CODE! 17:06:48 MORE CODE, LESS TALK. 17:07:14 slyrus: it's actually not bad, so far. But I'm far too shy to release what I got just yet. 17:07:24 bah 17:07:24 also, it's simple. 17:07:42 It's just the wrappers. 17:08:07 this is in SBCL? 17:08:21 CFFI 17:09:18 ^ 17:09:35 what it *is*, though, is osx only for now. 17:09:39 I mean apple objc 17:09:42 not gnustep 17:09:53 yeah, but, still, which lisp are you developing it in? 17:10:00 sbcl 17:10:22 If you don't use anything specific to sbcl, you're developing it on COMMON lisp. 17:10:44 Have you used anything sbcl specific? 17:10:48 indeed. I'm relying entirely on cffi 17:10:49 nope. 17:11:01 it's too simple to need specific stuff. 17:11:07 I find sbcl users quite arogant. 17:11:30 minion: advice on portable? 17:11:31 #12017: It doesn't need to be portable, it just needs to work on your system. 17:11:32 ask me again when I am working on exceptions. 17:11:41 minion: chant 17:11:42 MORE CODE, LESS TALK 17:11:46 lol 17:12:16 I also like "portability is for canoes". From Code Complete 17:12:20 minion: botsnack 17:12:21 botsnack: thanks 17:12:53 pjb: wow. arrogant for even lisp users? that's the creme-de-la-creme :) 17:13:31 pspace [~andrew@wsip-98-175-224-146.cl.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:55 -!- Steve__ [~Steve@c-71-195-232-180.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:14:04 pjb: I hope you didn't say that because I said it was too simple. I meant that in a humble way: what I'm doing is simple stuff. weekend warrior 17:14:30 -!- ainm [~ainm@163.Red-88-18-194.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc))] 17:14:52 slyrus: no, nothing and nobody specific :-) 17:15:00 Just a general impression. 17:16:05 Kron [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has joined #lisp 17:16:32 hmm. is there a portable way for a macro to slurp the definition of a function? (think wrapper generator) 17:16:56 a function that is *not* inside the macro itself. 17:17:09 or maybe that's an ass backwards way of going about doing things? 17:17:18 function-lambda-expression, if it is available. 17:17:26 Shaftoe: most probably the latter. 17:17:34 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:18:08 -!- pspace [~andrew@wsip-98-175-224-146.cl.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:18:19 aight. 17:19:01 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-16-203.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:19:05 But you can shadow and define defun yourself it you want to catch them. 17:19:24 or provide a defun* and require that users pass only functions defined with defun* to your macro. 17:20:25 pjb: I'm going to go with the more normal way of doing it. but it has the downside that I am mergine my cffi layer with the cffi wrapper layer. 17:20:42 s/mergine/merging/ 17:20:46 let's see what comes out of it. 17:21:20 iow, I'm going to make a macro defcfun* which expands to defcfun and its wrapper lisp call. 17:22:06 the downside is that if, for some reason the gnustep version of the runtime is different, I will no longer have an abstraction layer to shield the upper folks. 17:22:14 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:22:26 minion: chant 17:22:27 MORE NORMAL 17:22:34 no, mionion. no. 17:25:18 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 17:25:44 achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:55 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:25:59 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@79.245.204.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:27:56 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:31:25 t0lkman [~Talkman@c-67-170-223-126.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:06 adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:10 pspace [~andrew@wsip-98-175-224-146.cl.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:36 sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 17:35:33 -!- sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Client Quit] 17:36:07 sysfault [~exalted@c-69-141-108-208.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:07 -!- sysfault [~exalted@c-69-141-108-208.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:36:07 sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 17:36:52 Froward [~uh-oh@64.134.68.229] has joined #lisp 17:39:18 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA07E7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:06 kevin01123 [~user@97-91-232-86.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:41:31 Is there a way to bind a closure to the function namespace? I've been trying something like (flet ((my-func () (make-closure))) ...), but it doesn't seem to work. 17:42:24 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.180.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:42:39 can't do 17:44:02 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177960550.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:45:03 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:47:48 kevin01123: you can only on a global function: (setf (symbol-function 'f) (make-closure)) 17:47:49 (f) 17:48:04 Locally youc an do it thru a gensym: 17:48:15 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 17:48:21 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-16-203.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:47 (let ((closure (gensym))) (flet ((my-func () (funcall closure))) (setf (symbol-function closure) (make-closure)) (my-func))) 17:49:05 You could as well do: (let ((closure (make-closure))) (flet ((my-func () (funcall closure))) (my-func))) 17:49:16 -!- pspace [~andrew@wsip-98-175-224-146.cl.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:49:29 pspace [~andrew@wsip-98-175-224-146.cl.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:47 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:50:04 -!- achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:50:31 -!- ft [efftee@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:50:48 pjb: Ah okay, thank you! Is it considered bad style to do something like (mapcar my-func list) instead of (mapcar #'my-func list)? Is the sharp quote good style? Or does it matter? 17:51:06 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:08 I don't like #' so I write (function f) instead. 17:51:15 But (mapcar my-func list) has a different meaning! 17:51:32 It means that my-func is a variable bound to a symbol denoting a function or a function. 17:51:39 kevin01123: it's ok to do (mapcar my-func list) if you have a variable named my-func, so, you don't need to create a local function just to use #'my-func 17:52:06 (let ((my-func 'sin)) (mapcar my-func '(1 2 3))) => (0.841471 0.9092974 0.14112) 17:52:13 In the cffi ref, it says: "On implementations that don't support foreign-funcall cffi-sys::no-foreign-funcall will be present in *features*. Note: in these Lisps you can still use the defcfun interface." . How does that work if defcfun is a macro that exapnds to foreign-funcall? 17:52:30 (flet ((my-func (x) (sin x))) (mapcar (function my-func) '(1 2 3))) => (0.841471 0.9092974 0.14112) 17:52:45 (mapcar 'sin '(1 2 3)) => (0.841471 0.9092974 0.14112) 17:52:48 Shaftoe: it wouldn't expand to foreign-funcall 17:53:22 Okay! Thanks guys. 17:53:43 stassats`: I understood that part, but what I mean is that somewhere the bridge to cffi land occurs. Why not call *that* thing foreign-funcall. I guess it's not really that important. 17:54:23 Shaftoe: what thing? 17:55:16 stassats`: if the defcfun interface works on corman lisp (for a definition of "works" that I assume means what it shoudl mean), it would imply that there is a foreign function call being made. 17:55:30 stasstas`: so why would the foreign-funcall interface be absent on corman lisp? 17:55:31 it doesn't imply 17:55:50 if there's no foreign-funcall, cffi wouldn't be able to use it 17:56:00 stasstas`: so it's faking calls? I don't get it. 17:56:02 so it would use whatever implementation uses to define foreign functions 17:56:36 so why not wrap cffi:foreign-funcall around that for corman lisp only? 17:56:53 around what? 17:57:08 tacoman [~taco@198.111.39.45] has joined #lisp 17:57:10 there's nothing to wrap cffi:foreign-funcall around! 17:57:23 so does cffi work at all on corman-lisp? 17:57:44 you have the code, take a look 17:57:49 Does anybody use corman lisp? 17:57:49 I shall. 17:58:02 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 17:58:26 rgr 17:58:39 but if corman doesn't have foreign-funcall, but can define functions which call foreign functions when called, then it just uses this functionality 17:59:13 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 17:59:49 I see. 18:00:14 so at that point, foreign-funcall becomes "too low level", but defcfun just uses already available scafolding. 18:00:21 it's like, you have no lambda and funcall, you can only define global functions and call them 18:01:00 you can, of course, fake it in some way, but, apparently, nobody did it for CCL 18:01:10 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:01:15 well, corman seems to be windows only, so I shan't care about Corman. 18:01:26 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:01:44 Shaftoe: gnu objc runtimes runs on MS-Windows. 18:02:02 GNUstep too (at least at one time had a MS-Windows backend) 18:02:04 my canoe, she sinks. 18:02:15 alright, I'll stick to defcfun 18:02:58 you can stop caring about Corman 18:02:59 You can alway #+corman or whatever they use to identify themselves. 18:03:04 be as arrogant as SBCL users are 18:03:15 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:03:19 But notice that ccl clisp and sbcl run on MS-Windows too. 18:03:36 pnq [~nick@AC841E18.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:56 hah 18:04:14 -!- n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@188.19.142.11] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 18:04:25 #+corman is not a good solution if my aim is to avoid coding twice as much. 18:04:40 even if one path of code is run only 0.001% of the time, it won't change the amount of monkey typing. 18:04:53 #+corman(error "This product doesn't work on Corman Common Lisp") 18:05:06 hah. now *that* is an elegant solution =) 18:05:21 full of the arrogance we pride ourselves in 18:05:40 -!- tacoman [~taco@198.111.39.45] has left #lisp 18:06:04 #+corman(error "This product doesn't work yet on Corman Common Lisp") 18:06:19 -!- bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:06:30 The "yet" makes it less arrogant, and gives hope. 18:06:46 is it a justified hope? 18:07:01 Whether the hope is illusory or not makes arrogance come back, but conspicuously :-) 18:07:07 bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 18:08:27 As user of a freedom implementation, she would understand that there's hope she provides a patch; as a user of a proprietary implementation, she wouldn't hope thinking about such a thing, and could despair. 18:09:20 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-16-203.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:12:05 -!- rme [rme@8CB7B04A.47C9A248.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Quit: rme] 18:12:05 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.137.11] has quit [Quit: rme] 18:13:53 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-190-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:18:49 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:22:21 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:22:21 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 18:23:29 DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:41 antgreen [~user@CPE0021910f07ac-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:23:58 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@91-67-230-210-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:25:14 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:25:42 [SLB] [~slabua@host92-170-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:25:42 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host92-170-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 18:25:42 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 18:26:18 mwyrobek [~mwyrobek@caz50.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:26:50 tomekd789 [tomekd789@hbm66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:28:14 will have 2 questions: 18:28:15 1. 18:28:17 ;(ql:quickload "ieee-floats") 18:28:17 ;(import 'ieee-floats::encode-float64) 18:28:17 ;(import 'ieee-floats::decode-float64) 18:28:29 does not compile at startup, but works interactively 18:28:44 any idea how to put it to the .cl file to make it "autostart"? 18:29:10 (Error: Package "IEEE-FLOATS" not found. [file position = 51] 18:29:10 [condition type: READER-ERROR] 18:29:10 CG-USER(1): (import 'ieee-floats::encode-float64) 18:29:10 ) 18:30:08 the 2nd one: I'm confused. Or even astonished. First pls look at the piece of code: 18:30:21 (defun conv-rnd (infile outfile) 18:30:21 (with-open-file (in-file infile 18:30:21 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) 18:30:21 (with-open-file (out-file outfile 18:30:21 :direction :output 18:30:22 :if-exists :supersede 18:30:24 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) 18:30:26 ( 18:30:28 (file-position in-file 1023) 18:30:32 (when in-file 18:30:34 (loop for single-byte = 18:30:36 (prog1 (read-byte in-file nil) (read-byte in-file nil)) 18:30:38 while single-byte do (write-byte single-byte out-file)) 18:30:40 ))))) 18:30:41 tomekd789: we have one: can't you use http://paste.lisp.org/new ? 18:31:09 pjb, I didn't know this exists, thanks! 18:31:50 Next time, read the topic. (Just a good idea for irc in general) 18:32:28 pjb, what's "captcha"? 18:32:30 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:32:42 jtza8, it would help me more... I'm a newbie (but learning fast) 18:32:46 tomekd789: depends on whether you use firefox or w3m. 18:32:53 tomekd789: in general it's a number. 18:32:58 firefox 18:32:58 -!- treyka [~treyka@83.101.5.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:33:04 tomekd789: Heh, np 18:33:07 what is the number for? 18:33:26 So there aren't spam bots filling the paste board. 18:33:44 A captcha is to check that you are human. 18:34:15 OK, I've got it 18:34:22 now I've got some link: http://paste.lisp.org/+2RI9 18:34:26 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:26 it's actually a rather simplistic captch 18:34:27 a 18:34:35 shall I refer to it now? 18:34:41 i could solve if i wanted to 18:34:59 we'd accept a question from a bot able to answer it. 18:35:01 stassats`: It's the thought that counts. 18:35:18 pjb, :) 18:35:26 jtza8: it won't stop a determined attacker 18:35:36 OK, since I've got the link, may I ask the actual question? 18:35:45 noumena [~user@70.134.72.101] has joined #lisp 18:35:48 but will stop riff raff 18:36:08 just ask the question! 18:36:22 stassats`, OK ;) 18:36:29 i see that you have a wrong set of parenthesis 18:36:44 tomekd789: the right way to deal with packages is to write a defpackage form and to use asdf to load them in the right order. 18:37:01 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-170.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:37:19 -!- bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:37:26 pjb, OK, I'll look for "defpackage", thanks 18:37:32 bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 18:37:52 stassats`, do you mean the code I pasted? 18:37:57 tomekd789: yes 18:38:17 well, I took it promptly from the "practical common lisp" 18:38:17 parenthesis around file-position and when, this is wrong 18:38:54 tomekd789: http://paste.lisp.org/+2RI9/1 18:40:26 tomekd789: with-open-file won't bind the stream to nil unless you explicitely ask it for with :if-does-not-exist nil or :if-exists nil 18:41:17 pjb, thanks... But I don't understand :( 18:41:26 looking at the syntax 18:41:55 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:42:05 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@188.19.142.11] has joined #lisp 18:42:24 OK, maybe I've got the idea... 18:42:31 -!- bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:42:44 (how the heck you deal with such number of parentheses...) 18:43:06 tomekd789: for the quickload question - essentially, the compiler doesn't just go through each form in turn evaluating them, as if they were sequentially entered interactively. You want a system definition, like pjb said. 18:43:06 Not in notepad, that's for sure :P 18:43:37 tomekd789: with emacs and paredit. 18:43:40 jtza8, I'm using the Allegro CL built-in editor 18:43:48 it shows matching 18:43:58 -!- kami` is now known as kami 18:44:00 still, there's a lot of room for mistakes, as I can see 18:44:28 now I understand why it copied in-file to out-file, but couldn't position 18:44:34 pjb: you can grab asdf 2.20.12 and try having a suitable ~/.config/common-lisp/asdf-output-translations.conf 18:44:35 that's not enough. Paredit let you edit structurally. It doesn't need to show matching parentheses, because it ensures that there are always matching parentheses. 18:44:48 because the poor interpreter tried to evaluate the right part first, and apply to the left one 18:44:50 (well some command can remove the balance, but then paredit stops working). 18:45:02 I would put :hostname before :implementation so you have more sharing with fewer symlinks 18:45:20 also, hostname seems to be a short version on most implementations 18:45:42 Guys, thanks a lot indeed :) 18:45:44 if your site has many homonyms distinguished by sub-domains, you lose. 18:45:55 Fare: that's already that. When we have a safe way to obtain hostnames on all implementations and targets, we can update it. 18:46:02 Fare: indeed. 18:47:06 tomekd789: The parens are a way of thinking, if it doesn't make sense yet, don't stress it. There are good reasons for using them this way. 18:47:20 rme [~rme@50.43.137.11] has joined #lisp 18:48:16 can anyone give me the results of (machine-instance) on RMCL and CormanLisp ? 18:49:01 jtza8, it does, more and more ;) 18:51:18 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.238.48.102] has joined #lisp 18:55:09 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:55:32 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@50.Red-88-11-24.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 18:55:49 -!- Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:58:01 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-141.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:58:21 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:00:19 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-190-92.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:01:37 pjb: hi 19:02:34 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-16-203.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:43 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-141.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:03:51 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:05:35 -!- noumena [~user@70.134.72.101] has left #lisp 19:05:42 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-141.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:07:40 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 19:07:54 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:08:10 mensch [~mensch@c-67-189-240-148.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:57 jakky [jokk@2001:470:33:2::1ce] has joined #lisp 19:14:12 clintm [~cmoore@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:34 -!- clintm is now known as hydo 19:14:38 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:15:13 adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:07 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:16:43 adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:55 -!- jakky [jokk@2001:470:33:2::1ce] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:19:03 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:19:08 adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:46 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-133-31.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:25:11 Matt_ [aefcca64@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.252.202.100] has joined #lisp 19:29:45 I've heard that lisp is the "programmable programming language". Is there a way to change the way comments are interpreted? #| is terribly awkward to type for me. Could you help me out please? Thank you! I've heard that some Lisp-ers think beginners are trolls, I promise I'm not one, I just would like an answer please. 19:31:11 Matt_: you can use ; to comment till the end of line. 19:31:19 Matt_: semicolons mark comments until the end of the line, and are much more common. 19:31:22 ; is easier to type, and emacs can block comment with ;. 19:31:38 is it normal that running (asdf:test-system 'cffi) just hangs after saying that it's going to do 281 tests? 19:31:49 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:31:56 Matt_: otherwise it's trivial to write a reader macro to comment something: just read that something and return nothing. 19:32:05 Matt_: a good exercise in reader macros. 19:32:10 mikos [~mikos@5ac889db.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:23 ok, I think I'll do that, thank you. I don't use emacs, but I wish that my editor did (sublime text 2) 19:32:38 like #+(or)? 19:32:44 like I said, I'm still learning, it sounds like it'll be a fun exercise, thanks for the suggestion 19:33:31 how come everyone gripes about lispers offering too many choices and then gripes when told they should use emacs? :) 19:33:57 Matt_: or you could add a command to paredit bound to M-# to #| block comment |# the next sexp. 19:34:01 there should be something to gripe 19:34:20 I don't know what that means, I mean, I just learned about bindings :) 19:34:39 sorry if I seem ignorant, thanks for your answers 19:35:27 Matt_: paredit is an emacs module, so if you don't use emacs But just to say it would be trivial. 19:35:36 jakky [jokk@2001:470:33:2::1ce] has joined #lisp 19:35:43 alright 19:35:58 is emacs worth it? 19:36:16 it sounds like a steep learning curve 19:36:31 less steep than ViM 19:36:32 in my opinion it's worth it because of slime 19:36:43 CL requires learning too 19:36:44 c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.80.236] has joined #lisp 19:37:07 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.238.48.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:37:22 Matt_: it's not steep, because you should plan to be learning emacs for the rest of your life. 19:37:35 hmmmm 19:37:36 So if you're 20, that's a slow slope. 19:37:42 younger :) 19:37:57 idk 19:38:01 I'll think about it 19:38:30 Matt_: then you should really learn emacs! Ask any emacs user, they all will tell you their only regret is not having learned it earlier. 19:38:35 (same as for CL actually). 19:38:52 actually, I learned JavaScript first because I was interested in web development 19:39:01 and then I heard the Lisp was a huge influence of JavaScript 19:39:10 so I thought that it'd make me a better javascripter 19:39:17 if I learned the language that influenced it 19:39:19 That's correct. 19:39:30 and I find that Lisp is so elegant 19:39:35 Frowardly [~uh-oh@64.134.68.229] has joined #lisp 19:39:36 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:39:52 I'm annoyed I didn't learn it sooner 19:40:20 -!- Froward [~uh-oh@64.134.68.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:40:23 as pjb says, that's the usual reaction 19:40:26 See. That'll be the same with emacs. 19:40:37 Matt_: are you running MacOSX? 19:40:54 no, I'm on windows, why? 19:41:15 http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/windows/ 19:41:20 i learned emacs early enough, so i have no regrets 19:41:24 Because there's a different url for MacOSX emacs. 19:41:29 Matt_: you probably want lisp cabinet. 19:41:32 oh thanks! 19:41:38 ok 19:41:38 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:42 Matt_: http://lispcabinet.sourceforge.net/ 19:41:47 thank you 19:41:51 pre-configured emacs+slime+... 19:41:59 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 19:42:09 I'll download it and tell you all what I think 19:42:36 woodz [~wooodz@host86-130-190-243.range86-130.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:15 achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:18 why does the lisp community have a reputation for being mean? I mean, you're all so helpful 19:43:45 hmm... am I going to hafta build single-threaded SBCL to test cffi? 19:44:02 Matt_: well, you could read the irc logs :-) 19:44:09 minion: logs? 19:44:09 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 19:44:21 Matt_: or news:comp.lang.lisp 19:44:55 ok 19:44:59 comp.lang.lisp doesn't seem that toxic these days 19:45:05 at least I don't see it 19:45:08 I've a big kill file :-) 19:45:32 toxic is the word I've heard described for the news group of lisp 19:45:42 Matt_: we tend to be less helpful if people have a lot of inaccurate preconceptions. 19:45:56 and can't seem to be shaken off of them. 19:46:13 I have a question about your common lisp 19:46:24 It's yours now too :-) 19:46:29 then we release the toxins, this kills the newbie 19:46:41 Or make him stronger. 19:46:54 I know there's no "best", but I've been using SBCL 19:47:00 SBCL is popular. 19:47:03 CCL is also. 19:47:17 but 19:47:17 those're the two big free ones. 19:47:24 the problem was that 19:47:30 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 19:47:32 my hello world was 10 mb or so 19:47:33 http://www.cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20implementation 19:47:39 is that normal? 19:47:41 only 10 mb? 19:47:43 Yes. 19:47:46 ok 19:47:47 no, that's too low 19:47:51 It includes a compiler and a library. 19:47:57 Don't look at it. 19:48:09 so if I do more complex things 19:48:13 That said, nobody had so far any interest in making a CL compiler generate small code. 19:48:25 But you could attain this objective using ecl. 19:48:42 ecl can be deployed as a /usr/lib/libecl.so just like /usr/lib/libc.so 19:48:42 it won't be because of lisp, it'll be because of the compiler and library 19:48:48 So you can have small executable, with ecl. 19:48:53 Yes. 19:48:53 ok 19:49:27 Why do other Lisps not put the compiler and library in a .so? 19:49:33 I've wondered that before 19:49:47 because it's an unnecessary complication? 19:49:48 docAvid: they weren't designed with that in mind. 19:49:55 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:50:20 I'll try out ecl 19:51:14 Matt_: Don't worry about that - write standard code in the Lisp you are most happy playing with and you can always compile it under something that gives smaller results later if it becomes a priority. 19:51:28 ok, thanks for the advice 19:51:41 -!- achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:52:05 Matt_: however, ecl calls out on gcc to compile to native code, and generate the executables, so it's slower than most other CL compilers. Not good while developping. But ok to deploy. 19:52:26 right 19:53:10 besides artificial intelligence, is there anything else that lisp excels at? 19:53:18 everything 19:53:33 ah 19:54:15 Matt_: the ai connection is due to history, not special design 19:54:34 oh, just an accident of history 19:54:45 lisp became popular when ai research got started? 19:54:47 something like that? 19:54:51 starji [~starji@c-76-115-40-108.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:52 picking up chicks 19:55:00 Matt_: they were invented by the same man 19:55:00 ? 19:55:11 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:55:12 lisp and ai research cohabited the same labs 19:55:32 so when the ai researchers wanted to code, they reached for lisp 19:55:33 I understand 19:55:42 cool 19:55:55 Matt_: basically, lisp got at one point was *only* hgiher level language that supported symbolic processing, which was common element of AI research back then 19:56:02 -got 19:56:15 the other was Fortran (and not even Fortran 77) 19:56:29 John McCarthy, the man who discovered lisp, coined the term "Artificial Intelligence" 19:56:38 why do you say discovered? 19:56:49 Matt_: I use it to develop prototypes, particularly when I need both interactivity and performance. Often, the prototype is all that's needed. 19:57:13 Matt_: it started as a theoretical experiment, till some student implemented EVAL in assembly 19:57:54 I have a question about the difference between common lisp and scheme. This may be an odd question, but which is more...fun? 19:57:58 It was fundamentally flawed as well. 19:58:13 what was, assembly? 19:58:21 Matt_: I prefer CL. 19:58:28 the definition of EVAL. 19:58:31 oh 19:58:37 Matt_: See http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 19:58:43 Matt_: you'll most probably get more answers for cl here, as this is a cl channel :) 19:58:44 Matt_: depends on what you want to do. Scheme is certainly a lot more fun to extend in complex and novel ways. 19:59:11 pjb: that's the least noticeable difference between CL and Scheme 19:59:34 Matt_: And for fun see http://paste.lisp.org/display/122296 19:59:53 nice file name, happy.lisp, haha 20:00:10 stassats`: that's the most fundamental, along with call/cc. The others can be wrapped arround with trivial libraries. 20:01:00 anything can be wrapped 20:01:15 it's a turing tarpit 20:02:10 Matt_: also, scheme has the mother of all monads (continuations + side effects), which means we can do a lot more things without modifying the compiler or evaluator. These days, I'm more interested in building programs than in creating tools to help me build programs, so I don't use scheme much. 20:02:25 monads? 20:02:34 who cares about differences on the scale "how easy it is to implement one in another", if you wanted to use Scheme, you would use scheme, and lisp1 vs. lisp2 is a small differences when it comes to actually writing programs 20:02:48 both languages have macros, yes? 20:02:54 yes 20:03:13 Matt_: the idea came from a unix program called happy, which wished Happy New Year to its users: http://www.webservertalk.com/archive107-2005-4-1013758.html 20:03:17 you can have continuations in CL too, or at least that's what I read (with code) 20:03:29 pjb: you know about the happy numbers too? 20:03:30 And now, google groups finds posts in other websites but not in itself!!! 20:03:38 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03:44 pjb: http://tapoueh.org/blog/2010/08/30-happy-numbers.html 20:03:44 dim: yes, but not with a TRIVIAL library. You need a code walker. 20:03:44 urandom__ [~user@p548A246A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:53 -!- machine2 [~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: : http://www.beta.facefox.com/index.php?do=/user/register/] 20:04:02 hmmm, you know what, I've got all the time in the world, I'll learn both languages 20:04:06 And a code walker is not super trivial, it's just like implementing CL itself. 20:04:23 there's a continuation implementation with macros in On Lisp, but I wonder if that's production ready or just a toy implementation 20:04:27 Matt_: you WILL learn the three of them: Common Lisp, emacs lisp and Scheme. 20:04:29 -!- ASau [~user@128-72-117-212.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:33 But you will prefer CL. 20:04:41 http://www.bookshelf.jp/texi/onlisp/onlisp_21.html 20:04:46 why should I prefer CL? 20:05:09 You should not. Some people prefer scheme. But try them and see for yourself :-) 20:05:16 ASau [~user@128-72-117-212.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:05:30 ok, I think I will 20:06:08 BeWhy [~chatzilla@c-76-124-138-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:08:26 LiamH: around? 20:09:41 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-141.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:11:09 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-141.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:11:46 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-141.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13:32 is common lisp the majority of lisp that people use, or is that scheme? 20:13:53 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:14:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:15:03 nikodemus [~nikodemus@87-95-244-7.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:15:25 nevermind, it doesn't matter, thanks for the advice guys, I'll go play with lisp 20:15:26 -!- Matt_ [aefcca64@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.252.202.100] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:15:44 -!- Kynes` [~GTSpyVan1@75.14.218.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:16:13 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-141.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:17:07 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-85.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:17:51 Kynes` [~GTSpyVan1@adsl-75-0-10-84.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:47 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@87-95-244-7.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 20:25:12 Matt__ [aefcca64@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.252.202.100] has joined #lisp 20:25:53 Matt__: not on-topic here, but lately there is also clojure 20:26:04 hmmmm? 20:26:14 I got off this channel for a while 20:26:18 I don't know what you're talking about 20:26:27 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-10-103.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:34 if you're talking about alternative languages, then from what I've heard 20:26:42 (another lisp besides cl and scheme) 20:26:50 clojure uses the jvm 20:26:58 Matt__: Nobody said anything while you were gone 20:27:03 oh really, haha 20:27:26 I went and tried out emacs, and I didn't like the GUI, is there any reason why I might want to give it a second look? 20:27:43 I use it in text mode here, so why the gui? :) 20:27:59 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:04 what do you mean 20:28:11 GUI has nothing to do with how you actually work in Emacs. I have the button bar and menu bar permanently disabled. It's very keyboard centric. 20:28:11 I use it in the GUI because the fontlock, tooltips, and layout are slightly nicer that way 20:28:30 Matt__: were it not shiny and colorful enough? 20:28:43 no, I didn't like the yellow cursor 20:28:49 and... 20:28:50 you can change that 20:28:50 Totally configurable :) 20:28:50 a yellow cursor? 20:28:52 :O 20:28:58 hang on 20:29:02 so that's why people hate emacs 20:29:04 :) 20:29:06 the cursor is the wrong color 20:29:13 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 20:29:15 Now we know - somebody tell Stallman! 20:29:22 running it in a text terminal also solves that, btw! 20:29:39 to be fair is yellow really the default color these days? 20:29:43 that's horrible if so 20:29:46 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.136] has joined #lisp 20:29:50 les: no 20:29:59 lisp cabinet ships with a color theme 20:30:14 a light-on-dark 20:30:15 one 20:30:30 I liked sublime text 2 better because it's simple 20:30:32 Default under a window system is black-on-white with a black cursor 20:30:48 I can easily access the file system 20:30:52 leo2007 [~leo@123.123.251.39] has joined #lisp 20:30:56 and then I use emacs 20:30:58 and it's different 20:31:07 did you expect it to be the same? 20:31:07 I've also tried vim 20:31:10 but that was just...weird 20:31:11 no 20:31:24 I expected them to be different, they're different software 20:31:48 I expected all of these useful, amazing features 20:32:20 those weren't readily apparent 20:32:58 emacs, as I've heard 20:33:01 you're talking strange things 20:33:02 is extremely customizable 20:33:20 Really useful amazing features are rarely readily apparent. Readily apparent features tend to be crippled. 20:33:20 can you type full sentences instead of pressing enter so often? 20:33:40 sorry, it's a bad habit 20:34:08 Matt__: some commercial implementations provide fancy IDEs 20:34:15 so you add you're own features? 20:34:17 Matt__: you can easily patch erc (on emacs) not to send a message upon RET, but upon another key (eg C-RET), so that you can keep your habit and still produce something acceptable :-) 20:34:20 *your 20:34:34 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 20:34:40 pjb: :) 20:35:02 funny 20:35:32 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 20:36:06 -!- woodz [~wooodz@host86-130-190-243.range86-130.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 20:36:34 so is the amazing feature of emacs that you can customize it? 20:36:52 Matt__: well, yes. Emacs is an emacs lisp program with a good editing library. 20:36:57 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:11 what is slime? 20:37:12 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Quit: reboot; brb.] 20:37:15 There are other emacs lisp programs such as erc, gnus, ses, vm, w3m, etc. All running on the emacs vm. 20:37:21 minion: slime? 20:37:22 slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 20:37:27 No. The amazing feature of Emacs is that thousands of hackers who came before have customized it, shared their customizations, and now it can do anything. 20:37:39 superior, huh? 20:38:13 Matt__: it's only a reference to the process tree. 20:38:17 in emacs there are superior and inferior lisps :) 20:38:18 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:38:24 inferior process = child process ; superior process = parent process. 20:38:31 emacs and lisp comes from before unix! 20:38:52 does emacs? 20:39:11 -!- Frowardly [~uh-oh@64.134.68.229] has quit [Quit: even in laughter, the heart of Snorlax is sorrowful. and the end of that mirth is heaviness.] 20:39:43 "The first Emacs was a set of macros written in 1976" 20:40:06 lnostdal [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:23 Holy cow Emacs was born in the same year as me 20:40:49 haha 20:40:51 achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:58 Matt__: http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov for a slime demo (if the link still works) 20:41:00 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:41:01 And Lisp was born March, 4th, 1959. 20:41:07 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-95-229.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:07 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-95-229.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:42:41 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75df39.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:42 there's also http://www.multicians.org/mepap.html to read about early Emacs history, not sure if that happened before unix though 20:44:14 Yes, gosling emacs was before the first unix emacs. 20:45:23 Matt__: If you are interested in some reasons to love Emacs, check http://emacsrocks.com/ 20:45:34 ok thank you 20:46:38 my my. a first milestone. unattended building wrapper layer. 20:46:54 the equivalent of a single copper winding. 20:47:11 on my copper winding around nail over USB based keyboard implementation 20:47:30 hi 20:50:54 Ralith_ [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:08 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:51:18 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 20:51:59 Shaftoe: interesting, any pictures? 20:52:06 -!- Matt__ [aefcca64@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.252.202.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:52:25 phadthai: none! =) 20:52:44 oh well :) 20:53:12 I promise to share once I'm marginally satisfied - not even moderately satisfied 20:53:46 alvis [~user@tx-184-6-178-38.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:08 -!- tcr [~tcr@46.184.160.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:54:33 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-120-123.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:40 -!- achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:01:05 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:01:26 anyone know what part of the clhs describes the debugger in the most detail? 21:01:36 *Ralith* is terrible at finding things that aren't in the symbol index 21:02:27 -!- pspace [~andrew@wsip-98-175-224-146.cl.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:03:37 it does describe the debugger in detail 21:03:48 clhs invoke-debugger 21:03:50 Matt_ [aefcca64@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.252.202.100] has joined #lisp 21:04:18 crap, oom killed them 21:04:18 that's not quite as much detail as I was hoping for 21:04:58 Sorry for an offtop: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128965 21:05:04 many thanks guys! :) 21:05:16 ainm [~ainm@163.Red-88-18-194.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:25 clearly, i need more than 8G memory 21:06:59 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-95-229.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 21:08:00 tomekd789: isn't that too random to be random? :-) 21:08:36 that's the problem with random 21:08:46 [as in that dilbert strip] 21:10:01 -!- Matt_ [aefcca64@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.252.202.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:10:39 prxq, why too random? 21:10:45 the chi^2 test is telling 21:11:11 I don't think prxq was actually serious. 21:11:13 the 1st approach was too random indeed, 99.9% of random samples would exceed the threshold 21:13:18 -!- pnq [~nick@AC841E18.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:14:07 pnq [~nick@AC841E18.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:14:10 tomekd789: I do not know what you are doing, sorry. Is it in the backlogs of this channel? 21:14:30 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:33 antoszka got it right, I attempted a joke 21:16:33 huangjs [~user@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 21:18:24 prxq, in fact it doesn't matter (replying to both statements ;) ) 21:18:24 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.86.211] has joined #lisp 21:19:44 -!- c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.80.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:22:34 luis: here 21:23:23 -!- mikos [~mikos@5ac889db.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:23:53 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.180.219] has joined #lisp 21:24:42 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:24:46 LiamH: I've pushed a couple of fixes to a new branch on the cffi repo. Do you happen to have a 32-bit machine handy? 21:25:48 antgreen` [~user@CPE0021910f07ac-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:25:50 luis: No 21:25:59 Matt_ [aefcca64@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.252.202.100] has joined #lisp 21:25:59 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.136] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:26:19 Shoot. Me neither. 21:26:25 -!- pnq [~nick@AC841E18.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:26:27 64 bits all the way! 21:26:50 luis: What's the problem? 21:27:22 Are lexical bindings in lisp like local variables in javascript, and dynamic bindings like global variables? 21:27:26 Well, I made an ECL-specific fix that may or may not work on 32-bit. 21:27:42 luis: Ah, well I don't use ECL in any case. 21:28:04 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE0021910f07ac-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:28:32 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 21:29:00 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 21:29:06 luis: BTW did you notice had to do a last-minute patch; it turns out expand-to-foreign-indirect was broken. Good thing I decided to make a simple example of cffi-libffi, which didn't work because of bug. 21:29:21 Matt_: "yes" for the former, "not quite" for the latter 21:29:38 i have a 32 bit machine somewhere 21:29:55 what do you want it for? 21:29:57 could you clarify why "not quite" for dynamic bindings? 21:30:01 LiamH: *cough* automated tests *cough* 21:30:22 luis: Yes indeed, can you run them? 21:30:37 I can't 21:30:46 prxq: need to run cffi-tests from the bugfix-v0.10.7.1 branch on a bunch of lisps 21:31:13 -!- BeWhy [~chatzilla@c-76-124-138-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:31:23 Matt_: Dynamic bindings are scoped on the call stack, not unscoped like a global. In practice they are often used like globals. 21:32:20 I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean 21:32:36 the first sentence, I mean, the second sentence I get 21:34:23 LiamH: I can, yes. ISTR you had some trouble running the suite. What's the issue? 21:34:48 what do you mean by a call stack? 21:35:31 luis: I don't recall exactly, but it had something to do with it looking for 32-bit libraries (ironically). Also, there are no (exact, step-by-step) instructions provided for running the tests, which would be helpful. 21:35:32 Matt_: So like... (defvar *bar* "quux") (defun foo () *bar*) (let ((*bar* "blah")) (foo)) ... returns "blah" but leaves the original "quux" binding when it's done - a true global would have changed it to "blah" 21:36:11 oh 21:36:12 ok thank you 21:36:14 I'm probably explaining it horribly :) someone else want to try? 21:36:33 does anyone have a better example? 21:36:51 thanks for try docavid 21:36:58 *trying 21:38:37 what is the star syntax of *bar* for? I've never seen that before 21:38:53 is that just the name? 21:39:08 LiamH: I think we've made the 32-bit thing optional 21:39:17 LiamH: have you tried running the suite after the merge? 21:39:45 luis: no, haven't tried in a while 21:41:56 Matt_: yes, it's just a naming convention. 21:42:34 Matt_: are you reading a Lisp book? 21:42:37 ok 21:42:42 http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Common_Lisp/First_steps/Beginner_tutorial#Binding 21:42:55 Matt_: have a look at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html 21:42:58 but when it got to the difference between lexical and dynamic bindings 21:43:20 it said "For our purposes at this point, dynamic bindings are not much different from lexical bindings, but they are made in a different way and do not have the same finite extent of the LET form" 21:43:24 is that good for beginners? 21:44:12 Matt_: PCL has helped me understand a bunch concepts that are uncommon in other non-Lisp languages. I highly recommend it. 21:44:33 Matt_: Lisp beginners, yes. It assumes previous programming experience. 21:45:12 I've not done real programming, really, I'm not that great of a javascripter 21:45:57 thanks for the link 21:46:24 I've been learning D to compensate for me having not programmed a real application before 21:46:30 but lisp looked far more interesting 21:46:44 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:24 Matt_: if you find PCL hard, have a look at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ then go back to PCL. 21:47:40 ok 21:47:46 actually 21:47:48 I tried that 21:48:01 but I didn't like the boxes 21:48:04 it was too many boxes 21:48:04 heh 21:48:06 and not enough code 21:48:23 gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has joined #lisp 21:49:12 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 21:50:35 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:50:47 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:48 luis, do you have an alternative that doesn't use as many boxes? 21:52:08 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-141.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:53:15 *stassats`* cries, are fd-handlers on sbcl ever usable? 21:54:37 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:55:16 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m83-185-142-102.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:55:23 *stassats`* added reconnection to specbot 21:55:40 wasted too much time on fd-handlers 21:56:07 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:04 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@91-67-230-210-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:59:12 is using iolib for non-blocking IO the only option? 21:59:51 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-141.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:01:01 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:01:23 pspace [~andrew@d118-75-188-8.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 22:03:04 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:03:39 -!- ainm [~ainm@163.Red-88-18-194.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:03:44 ainm [~ainm@162.Red-83-33-84.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:48 -!- tiglog [~topeak@106.3.63.128] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:05:30 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-121-176.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:07:04 Matt_: try PCL, see if that works. 22:07:26 Matt_: did you find the chapter on variables useful? 22:08:35 hm, maybe if i cal wait-until-fd-usable with :serve-event nil it will behave more reasonably 22:08:54 CampinSam [~Sam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:09:08 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 22:09:22 am I reading file:///usr/share/doc/HyperSpec/Body/22_cbc.htm incorrectly? I expected (format nil "~20,'0,'|,4B" 314) to print out a | every four 0s or 1s... 22:10:13 ah sorry for the link 22:10:29 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5B326A43.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:10:51 daniel [~daniel@p5082BE52.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:12 oops, I haven't read that yet, sorry luis 22:11:19 hang on 22:11:48 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129057010.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 22:12:31 here's the link: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_cbc.htm 22:12:59 ~mincol,padchar,commachar,comma-intervalB. 22:13:28 <|3b|> prxq: use : modifier, and doesn't work on pad chars anyway :/ 22:13:34 <|3b|> see ~d 22:15:11 |3b|: ah ok. thanks 22:15:48 well, i guess crappy reconnect is better than no reconnect 22:16:42 hm, iolib.multiplex:wait-until-fd-ready seems to respect timeout much better 22:16:49 Is there a way to trace a specific genfun method? 22:17:30 Ralith: SLIME used to have C-u C-c C-t, the TRACE syntax depends on your Lisp. 22:17:36 i hope i can use use usocket with iolib.multiplex:wait-until-fd-ready 22:17:38 used to have? 22:17:48 stassats`: why not iolib's socket stuff? 22:18:20 Ralith: i have to rewrite cl-irc 22:18:41 *Ralith* has a mostly-working async IRC backend put together 22:18:41 well, cl-irc is awful and all, but i have only one day left 22:18:46 not API-compatible ofc 22:18:59 then i won't be near desktop for three days and i want bots to restart themselves 22:19:02 stassats`: iolib's got a usocket compat layer doesn't it? 22:19:04 ah. 22:19:28 stassats`: what's wrong with cl-irc? 22:19:35 luis: usocket just uses sbcl sockets, and i can get an fd from there, so i hope it'll be just plug-n-play 22:19:37 (just curious) 22:19:50 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:20:27 prxq: strange API, you have to write your own polling and things 22:21:21 has a built-in event loop 22:21:33 which is always a PITA 22:21:38 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-101-186.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:23:58 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.61.203] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:24:10 ok, iolib.multiplex:wait-until-fd-ready seems to work fine, now i need to implement ghosting 22:24:31 tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.161.74] has joined #lisp 22:24:44 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-132-131.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:25:51 -!- Matt_ [aefcca64@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.252.202.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:26:44 Matt_ [aefcc74f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.252.199.79] has joined #lisp 22:26:58 Do you guys have recommendations for lisp video tutorials? 22:29:16 -!- rme [rme@8CB7B04A.47C9A248.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Quit: rme] 22:29:16 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.137.11] has quit [Quit: rme] 22:30:25 i am not aware of any recent ones. 22:30:43 shame 22:32:25 we're old-school, reading books 22:32:52 I abhor video tutorials 22:33:07 take half an hour to tell you something you could have read in five minutes 22:33:09 they are slow 22:33:20 and then you can't go back and refer to it 22:33:31 there were some a couple of years ago on using slime, IIRC. I never watched them, though (honest and pure lack of interest and time) 22:33:39 i can understand video tutorials to photoshop or inkskape 22:33:41 they were reputed to be good 22:34:57 videos are good for learning workflow. Marco Berringer's slime tutorial is a good example of something that's actually faster than reading. 22:35:02 that said, 'lisp 22:35:08 isn't the same thing. 22:35:26 that were the ones. Shaftoe: do you have a link? 22:35:43 minion: slime.mov? 22:35:43 slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 22:36:08 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:13 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-16-203.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:36:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B_4vhsmRRI 22:36:17 Matt_: there you go :-) 22:36:28 Shaftoe, stassats`: merci 22:36:32 stassats`: you are minion's master aren't you 22:36:33 I'm not interested in using slime actually 22:36:37 <|3b|> there are the sicp lectures if you count scheme and/or general programming in "lisp" :p 22:36:42 I ask him to do stuff and he just answers stupid things. 22:37:03 Shaftoe: i am at the moment, but that's been in his DB for a long time 22:37:12 s/his/its/ 22:37:16 hah. and you knew that =) 22:37:44 well, i knew that before it was running on my desktop 22:38:36 ok, so is there way I could preserve case for slime completions while not having to intern symbolc that use | ? 22:39:22 no 22:41:39 adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:44 aight. camel case to lisp style, it is then. 22:43:44 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:46:23 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:46:52 -!- tomekd789 [tomekd789@hbm66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has left #lisp 22:48:41 -!- mwyrobek [~mwyrobek@caz50.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:50:00 hmm. the cffi:translate-camelcase-name is no longer? 22:50:14 c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.67.234] has joined #lisp 22:51:54 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.86.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:56:02 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 22:58:13 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-156-1.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:46 hm, something wrong with ghosting 23:00:44 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-120-123.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:01:26 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 23:05:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:48 huangjs` [~user@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 23:07:11 -!- huangjs` [~user@190.8.100.83] has quit [Client Quit] 23:09:22 -!- antgreen` [~user@CPE0021910f07ac-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:09:47 *stassats`* starts hating irc protocol 23:12:09 bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 23:12:31 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75df39.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:17:15 Is there a way to define a different print method for #'print vs. #'princ? 23:17:36 (to accomplish functionality similar to a string printing as "foo" versus foo) 23:17:47 yes, *print-escape* 23:18:30 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-156-1.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:18:45 I see 23:18:49 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-95-229.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:18:52 not the mechanism I'd expected 23:19:02 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-148-182.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:25 djanatyn [~user@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 23:20:41 mikos [~mikos@188-223-31-58.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:22:27 huangjs` [~user@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 23:23:33 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:42 -!- bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 23:33:20 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-148-167-55.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:33:42 Guthur [~user@host86-148-167-55.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:34:24 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.180.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:35:06 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.180.219] has joined #lisp 23:36:09 lebro [~monx@ool-18bc4a28.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:36 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@188.19.142.11] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 23:41:31 -!- Matt_ [aefcc74f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.252.199.79] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:41:49 d'oh, i think i got how to ghost properly, i need use a different nick first 23:43:02 -!- ainm [~ainm@162.Red-83-33-84.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc))] 23:45:05 is there a reference somewhere for weblocks that for example simply lists the widget/renderers it comes with? 23:50:43 -!- sammi` [sammi@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-zeylzistdgslfkab] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:55:09 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55:34 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:55:40 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:59 yay, proper reconnection for specbot