00:01:05 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:03:29 -!- cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:03:55 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.30.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:04:01 -!- CampinSam [~Sam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:06:05 necros` [~user@187-162-44-212.static.axtel.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:05 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314164.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:06:29 ravster: suppose you want to represent a vector 1 2 3. 00:06:59 ravster: we can do that with a function f such as f(0)=1, f(1)=2 and f(2)=3. 00:07:42 In scheme: (define f (lambda (i) (cond ((= x 0) 1) ((= x 1) 2) ((= x 2) 3) (else (error "Invalid index"))))) 00:07:49 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314164.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 00:08:24 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314164.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:08:41 -!- necros [~user@187-162-44-212.static.axtel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:08:55 The data inside the function needs not be literal constants. 00:08:59 s/x/i ? 00:09:05 Yes. 00:09:37 Suppose we want to represent pairs such as: (kar (kons a d)) = a and (kdr (kons a d)) = d 00:09:42 so this is basic abstraction? 00:09:50 procedural or functional abstraction. 00:10:24 we can write (define (kons a d) (lambda (s) (s a d))) (define (kar k) (k (lambda (a d) a))) (define (kdr k) (k (lambda (a d) d))) 00:10:51 Now (kons 1 2) returns a procedure, whose code is (lambda (s) (s a d)) and whose bindings are a=1 and d=2. 00:10:55 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:11:14 impulse32_ [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314164.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:11:44 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.116.245] has joined #lisp 00:11:53 -!- impulse32_ [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314164.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 00:12:15 When we call kar on this closure, it is called with (lambda (a d) a); ( (lambda (s) (s a d)) (lambda (a d) a)) = ((lambda (s) (s a d)) (lambda (aa dd) aa)) = ((lambda (aa dd) aa) a d) = a 00:12:16 -!- tsoet [~Widoa@78-73-117-181-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has left #lisp 00:12:27 which is bound to 1, so the result is 1 00:13:42 ravster: the trick is to understand that closures are a function + an environment, which is like a record. So it's kind of a simple object with data and a single method, the function. 00:14:00 (the function could dispatch on a "message" parameters, so we don't lose generality). 00:14:08 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314164.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:14:09 ie. closures are equivalent to objects. 00:14:39 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 00:15:04 Okay, you lost me on the last example, but I get closures. And they used closures in the example they gave in the textbook. 00:15:36 and you seem to have the same idea about this 00:15:36 Just try it in the REPL. 00:16:06 then try a list: (kar (kdr (kons 1 (kons 2 (kons 3 'nil))))) 00:16:08 dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-182-64.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:16 Okay, doing that now. thanks. 00:19:52 Notice that you can use closures like that to implement functional vectors. 00:19:55 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:22 (define (vector-set! vector index new-value) (lambda (i) (if (= i index) new-value (v i)))) 00:20:42 (define (vector) (lambda (i) (error "Invalid index"))) 00:21:05 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:21:12 (vertor-ref (vector-set! (vector-set! (vector-set! (vector) 0 1) 1 2) 2 3) 1) --> 2 00:21:25 All this without mutation (that makes some people happy). 00:22:19 (let ((a (vector-set! (vector) 1 42))) (let ((b (vector-set a 1 11))) (list (vector-ref a 1) (vector-ref b 1)))) --> (42 11) 00:22:29 we have applied vector-set! on a, but a is unchanged. 00:22:44 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.30.53] has joined #lisp 00:23:09 Solution to the exercise left to the reader: (define (vector-ref v i) (v i)) 00:23:41 aaahhh, the kons example just made sense to me. thanks. :) 00:23:58 ravster: good. cons cells, ie. pairs are just vectors of 2 elements. 00:24:26 achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:37 -!- paul0 [~user@200.175.62.253.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:28:06 okay. yeah. 00:28:28 drakej [~Marsha@cpe-173-174-140-78.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:20 -!- drakej [~Marsha@cpe-173-174-140-78.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:30:30 so in the vector example, you are building closures on top of closures? 00:30:56 drakej [~Marsha@cpe-173-174-140-78.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:31:23 antgreen [~user@CPE0021910f07ac-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:33:19 -!- drakej [~Marsha@cpe-173-174-140-78.satx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 00:35:57 -!- Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.116.245] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:36:34 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-16-203.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:41 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.116.245] has joined #lisp 00:39:31 thanks pjb 00:42:29 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177960550.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:43:05 mason` [~user@ip72-211-225-236.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:20 -!- pinged [~joe@86-46-141-57-dynamic.b-ras1.rtd.sligo.eircom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:44:44 -!- mason [~user@ip72-211-225-236.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:46:09 -!- necros` is now known as necros 00:47:51 KDr2 [~kdr2@123.112.73.31] has joined #lisp 00:47:52 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483BDE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:51:37 is there a simple way to force the result of a backquote not to share list structure with the template? the hyperspec says a copy might or might not share structure depending on the implementation 00:52:19 in clisp I'm finding that in something like (defun derp (x) `((1 2 3) (4 5 ,x))) the (1 2 3) is shared 00:52:51 why do you care if it's shared or not? 00:53:27 because I might be modifying it 00:53:46 <|3b|> make a copy or build the lists by hand 00:53:49 -!- gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:54:05 gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:54:30 aww, but the backquoting made it look so clean 00:54:49 Dalek_Baldwin: (copy-tree `()) 00:55:35 why just not refrain from modifying it? 00:57:57 what, like make everything entirely functional? 00:59:21 I might like to eventually 00:59:39 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.30.53] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:00:19 -!- daedric [~daedric@2a01:e0b:1000:21:baac:6fff:fe99:7ada] has quit [Ping 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[~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has left #lisp 03:32:05 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:32:06 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 03:34:55 sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 03:35:11 -!- sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has left #lisp 03:35:44 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:37:43 Is it really quiet in here today or is something wrong with my connection/client? 03:38:15 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:38:35 It was quiet ... 03:45:35 Gotcha. I tried to say something about 20 minutes ago but got some dialog box that there was some restriction on the room. I think I just somehow wasn't logged in right. 03:46:12 you weren't in here 20 minutes ago 03:46:15 so, probably. 03:53:25 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 03:58:21 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.65.239] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:58:45 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.64.172] has joined #lisp 04:01:35 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:03:01 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: patrickwonders] 04:06:55 DDR_ [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:02 -!- benny [~benny@i577A17F8.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:07:12 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:09:40 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:09:41 -!- DDR_ is now known as DDR 04:10:38 -!- _tca [~tca@thewired.me] has left #lisp 04:11:20 -!- Kron [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 04:14:23 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:15:17 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:20 -!- achiu [~achiu@rrcs-74-62-252-146.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:31:56 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-16-203.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:32:50 scombinator [~user@203.171.40.170] has joined #lisp 04:35:41 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.29.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:36:09 GreyHatLispHacke [~LilScheme@saeed.torservers.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:11 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-192-6.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 04:37:03 anyone here ever work with the cl-plplot library??? 04:39:11 hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:39:15 jsibelius [~pppppp@78.142.9.74] has joined #lisp 04:40:45 -!- Kynes`_ is now known as Kynes` 04:42:08 -!- hugod 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05:12:19 what's a good equivalent of size_t type? 05:12:34 is there the equivalent type somewhere in cffi that is architecture aware? 05:14:24 sammi` [sammi@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-sdysqlzwlgziigqk] has joined #lisp 05:14:27 -!- tashbear [~tash@unaffiliated/el-tash/x-7763973] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:14:33 the use of CFFI-GROVEL probbaly 05:15:00 rest might depend on implementation. docs might be clearer 05:15:04 -!- Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:15:09 tiny [~tiny@183.3.169.23] has joined #lisp 05:15:33 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:16:15 p_l: thanks. that's a good direction. 05:17:07 Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has joined #lisp 05:18:50 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 05:19:07 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 05:21:35 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 05:23:20 -!- theos 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Flood] 08:45:07 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 08:47:15 it's quiet... 08:47:43 It was ... 08:48:23 >:-| it was. 08:50:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-018.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:51:04 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-018.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 08:56:11 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 08:56:12 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:57:04 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 08:58:22 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-175-251.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:59:51 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-175-251.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:59:57 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-018.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:00:11 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 09:00:12 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:00:44 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 09:01:35 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-175-251.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:03:34 mikos [~mikos@188-223-31-58.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:03:50 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-175-251.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:06:56 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 09:07:10 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.61.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:07:43 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:07:43 ivan-kanis [~user@71.2.205.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:50 sb-impl::*default-external-format* is ASCII by default 09:08:07 -!- Sgeo [~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 09:08:09 Sgeo [~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:09 is there a prefered way to change it than just set this variable? 09:08:42 nowhere_man: set up the environment in which SBCL is started properly 09:08:45 (it's not an external symbol, I expect it says it's not a user interface to the system) 09:09:00 Well, it's an package internal variable, furthermore in a "implementation" package, I wouldn't touch it 09:10:17 It would make a fragile dependency. 09:11:31 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:11:48 -!- achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:12:08 still, my locale was incorrectly set by KDE to fr_FR@euro, shouldn't sb-impl::*default-external-format* be :LATIN-9? 09:12:38 (or :ISO-8859-15, or whatever the canonical alias) 09:13:48 Why does anyone use anything that isn't Unicode? 09:13:59 nowhere_man: i _guess_ the relevant environment variable is LC_CTYPE 09:14:10 or LC_ALL. 09:16:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:20:12 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 09:20:58 kranius [~kranius@version-one.eu] has joined #lisp 09:21:00 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 09:21:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 09:22:04 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@123.112.73.31] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:22:44 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:22:50 Hello. 09:23:43 tsuru```` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-17-90.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:02 -!- kranius [~kranius@version-one.eu] has left #lisp 09:25:11 -!- tsuru``` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-30-3.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:25:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.15] has joined #lisp 09:25:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.15] has quit [Changing host] 09:25:29 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:30:46 -!- mel0on [1000@h-73-200.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:34:23 -!- DDR 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mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:04:13 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:10:37 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@31.163.208.29] has joined #lisp 10:10:43 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 10:10:50 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has joined #lisp 10:14:16 Bacteria [~Bacteria@120.148.38.188] has joined #lisp 10:14:56 msmith1 [~msmit297@adsl-98-92-215-204.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:58 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-229-129.as43234.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:15:24 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-228-173.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:50 anyone know how to force an interpreted function to be compiled and evaluated as belonging to a certain package and not the current one? Without prepending the package name. 10:20:06 -!- gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:20:43 gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 10:20:52 -!- gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:21:19 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-vvfectjltvpjbidy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:21:20 e.g something like (eval (read-from-string "(myfunc a b c)")) but specify somehow that myfunc is part of package foo 10:22:17 what are you trying to do? 10:23:02 gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 10:23:48 (let ((*package* (find-package :foo))) (read-from-string "(myfunc 1 2 3)")) ; but yeah, this has "you're trying to do something strange" smell to it 10:23:50 -!- incandenza [~textual@ip68-231-126-199.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 10:24:14 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-fzntpjcacznnabvq] has joined #lisp 10:24:24 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:24:48 nikodemus: I'm am thanks. I'll give that a shot 10:25:54 s/I'm/I 10:26:17 -!- ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Quit: brb] 10:26:18 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120403211507]] 10:27:12 Flatlander [~tomppa@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has joined #lisp 10:30:08 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:31:36 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:33:24 ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 10:34:42 -!- CrazyThinker` [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:35:28 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-124-34.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:59 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 10:38:07 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:38:57 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-228-173.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:39:53 add^_ [~add^_^@m83-185-142-102.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:42:38 -!- kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.50.1] 10:42:45 http://pastebin.com/Hf1bS5hw 10:42:47 emacs lisp 10:42:49 stassats`: I have a macro that takes a string and after checking that it meets certain criteria, runs read-from-string against it, then tries to evaluate what is returned. The problem that I'm getting is that when I try to evaluate it, I get the function common-lisp-user:myfunction is undefined. But the function in question is one that is defined in the package the macro is defined in. 10:42:51 why doesn't that work? 10:43:06 I've tried not to put pbuf in the last expression into data mode 10:43:08 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:43:46 monotux: try #emacs 10:43:48 monotux: you might need (let ((*package* (find-package :my-package))) (eval "string")) to 10:44:01 ah, sorry, meant msmith1 10:44:01 msmith1: why do you have such a macro? 10:44:24 ... 10:44:32 ((pbuf (current-buffer))) 10:44:37 one ( too little 10:44:43 one less than required 10:44:43 eh 10:45:04 flip214: tried that, not working for me 10:45:20 monotux: well, it's not required, but probably what you wanted 10:45:41 monotux: (pbuf (current-buffer)) will bind pbuf to NIL and current-buffer to NIL 10:45:53 msmith1: bind *package* around the call to READ-FROM-STRING 10:45:56 msmith1: bind *package* around the call to READ-FROM-STRING 10:46:12 oh, lol, sorry, my IRC was not scrolled to bottom :/ 10:46:29 msmith1: since it is in a macro, it's easy to get the scoping wrong -- make sure *package* is bound while read-from-string is executed 10:46:45 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:46:58 stassats`: ah, I see. this language is kinda tricky (or, i'm not very good at it) but it's growing on me 10:47:04 msmith1: so, what kind of macro is that? it seems very strange 10:47:13 hmm, maybe scoping isn't the right word there, but check when things are being evaluated. 10:47:16 CrazyThinker` [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 10:47:49 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-124-244.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:31 stassats` well, It's part of a larger experiment to build an application in a novel way. Well, at least novel to me. 10:50:53 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-124-34.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:52:23 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-124-244.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:29 flip214 jdz Vivitron nickodemus : you guys had it right, thanks 10:53:44 jdz had it right twice! 10:54:26 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.9.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:55:13 :-) yep 10:55:23 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.148.76] has joined #lisp 10:55:28 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-124-244.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:56:46 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-157-207.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:50 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 10:57:49 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 10:58:46 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:59:42 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 11:00:03 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-124-244.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:02:37 dsabanin [~dsabanin@195.208.164.212] has joined #lisp 11:02:59 drl [~drl@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 11:12:23 asvil [~asvil@178.120.86.14] has joined #lisp 11:13:04 akovalenko: ping 11:13:04 ``Erik [~erik@pool-108-3-159-149.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:31 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:15:12 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-121-86.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:38 -!- a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:15:38 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:18:06 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:18:23 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-157-207.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:20:47 Joreji [~thomas@82.113.99.4] has joined #lisp 11:21:23 msmith1: you're doing two things wrong: you're using a macro instead of a function, you're using a string instead of a sexp. 11:21:46 (eval-after-checks '(some expression)) 11:21:48 a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:57 eval-after-checks being a function. 11:23:32 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B13A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:37 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 11:26:17 sammi` [sammi@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-zeylzistdgslfkab] has joined #lisp 11:30:33 pjb: why do you say my using a macro is wrong? 11:30:49 Because you can do it with a function. 11:31:27 Or in anycase, macro and eval should be mutually exclusive. 11:31:59 Notice that in CL, macros take an environment parameter, but eval does not. 11:32:59 so really I should just be able to read-from-string in the macro without using eval 11:33:02 ? 11:33:25 -!- dsabanin [~dsabanin@195.208.164.212] has quit [Quit: dsabanin] 11:33:38 Yes. 11:33:51 But again, why are you using a macro? 11:33:57 What are you doing? 11:33:59 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:34:01 Why are you using a string? 11:34:38 If it's a string passed to a macro, it means you know it when you write the source of your program. Therefore you DO NOT NEED a string! Just write a sexp! 11:35:35 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:36:35 not necessarily, I may not know what the string is as it's being passed 11:36:55 msmith1: yes, necessarily. Otherwise you cannot write that as a macro! 11:37:04 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82.113.99.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:37:12 A macro can only work on something that you write in the source. 11:37:31 If it's not in the source file, then you just CANNOT process it with a macro. 11:37:55 seems to be working just fine for me 11:38:01 :-) 11:38:17 as wrong as it may be 11:38:43 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@71.2.205.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:39:01 -!- CrazyThinker` [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:39:27 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:39:34 "working fine" is not the only goal worth to pursue when writing a program 11:39:57 he probably writing a config parser, or some weird templating system, where certain parts could be code 11:40:01 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA07AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:40:07 "easy to understand, maintainable, extensible, etc." are important too 11:49:17 -!- Flatlander [~tomppa@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:51:36 Joreji [~thomas@82.113.99.4] has joined #lisp 11:54:08 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@50.Red-88-11-24.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:36 adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:48 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 11:56:15 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:56:43 adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:10 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82.113.99.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:57:57 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@120.148.38.188] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 11:58:36 mel0on [1000@213.80.108.13] has joined #lisp 11:59:15 visar [~visar@77.29.222.240] has joined #lisp 11:59:47 Hi all. So akovalenko binary sbcl packages can not be accessed now, link is dead. Have someone got mirror of sbcl-*mswin.msi? 12:01:24 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:36 -!- visar [~visar@77.29.222.240] has left #lisp 12:02:08 visar [~visar@77.29.222.240] has joined #lisp 12:02:44 -!- msmith1 [~msmit297@adsl-98-92-215-204.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:03:46 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:05:16 -!- jakky [~jokk@2001:470:33:2::1ce] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:05:38 -!- ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:06:27 asvil: I don't have it, but you might open an issue on github for it 12:06:48 jakky [jokk@2001:470:33:2::1ce] has joined #lisp 12:09:11 mail sent to anton 12:09:48 morning 12:10:44 lichtblau: if you're curious about where my investigations into yesterday's problem lead me, check out cl-ppcre-devel 12:13:36 aha. Well, in this case, you'd presumably have to fix the copy&pasted&tweaked parsing code in nppcre.lisp, too. 12:14:23 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 12:14:58 flipout [~user@75-175-121-203.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:21 -!- Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:17:26 ghuntley [~ghuntley@60.225.85.11] has joined #lisp 12:17:30 lovely :) 12:18:13 Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has joined #lisp 12:19:35 hmm. I don't see the difference between ppcre and perl here. 12:19:46 echo "b" | perl -ne 'print if /^T(a)|(b)$/' # prints b 12:19:53 isn't that exactly what cl-ppcre is also doing? 12:21:08 ah, I see my mistake 12:21:10 darn 12:21:28 hrm... 12:22:39 -!- jakky [jokk@2001:470:33:2::1ce] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:22:45 Joreji [~thomas@90-123.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 12:24:06 holy cows, just found there is a russian "visual programming language" I never heard of, that has a forum, and is used in space hardware, buran, fregat, proton, sealaunch etc 12:25:08 http://forum.oberoncore.ru/viewforum.php?f=62&start=0 <- their forum.. Gonna try to find english linky 12:26:44 http://www.dragon-tech.org/en/projects/dragon/manifesto/ <- english linky 12:27:03 apparently it uses unicode math chars for operators, already awesome :-) 12:28:40 lichtblau: well, then this looks like another bug in the icalendar Relax NG schema... 12:29:45 that's the bad news... the good news is that I get a lot more of the ical stuff correctly parsed and validated now! 12:30:07 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:31:05 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@Lark.price.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 12:31:29 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.148.76] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:31:43 jakky [jokk@2001:470:33:2::1ce] has joined #lisp 12:31:46 mlkith [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 12:33:05 if lambda didn't exist would this be a correct way to implement it? it seems to work. http://paste.lisp.org/display/128933 12:33:40 yes. 12:33:54 it's guaranteed to work? defining a function in the middle like that 12:34:01 You could also write: `(function (defun ,name )) 12:34:08 Yes, it'll work. 12:34:09 mlkith: try FLET instead 12:34:11 ah nice 12:34:52 The only thing is that compilation-time effects won't be effected at compilation time, which should be no problem, for a lambda. 12:34:58 one thing that doesn't work for: ((lambda (a b) (+ a b)) 1 1) 12:35:23 that case is so special 12:35:44 and vanishingly rare, and never necessary 12:35:54 huangjs [~user@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 12:36:11 I thought I had a use-case for it, but I can't remember it :( 12:36:18 how come this doens't work? http://paste.lisp.org/display/128933#1 . getting (DEFUN #:G0 () 10) is not a legal function name 12:36:20 mlkith: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128933#2 12:36:29 Something to do with preserving call order for &rest arglists and keywords or something. 12:36:39 mlkith: function doesn't evaluate its arguments 12:36:45 ah 12:36:50 Oops, right. 12:36:56 fdefinition does 12:37:08 stassats but ,(gensym) should have been evaluated by my macro? 12:37:34 mlkith: gensym is not the problem 12:37:54 what is? don't get how second version is different 12:38:07 (function (defun x ())) is invalid. 12:38:18 i see 12:38:46 mlkith: funnction names should be either symbols or (setf symbol), (defun ...) doesn't conform to either of those 12:38:48 Only (function x) (function (setf x)) and (function (lambda () )) are valid 12:38:51 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-121-86.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 12:38:56 or lambda-lists 12:39:22 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-121-86.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:24 so my first version is the shortest/simplest i could write it with defun? 12:39:31 Yes. 12:39:37 but you wouldn't write it with defun 12:39:44 why not? 12:39:52 Suppose you don't have flet either 12:40:09 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:40:13 suppose i don't want to suppose anything 12:40:13 mlkith: because it'd be better to use flet if you have it. 12:40:18 mlkith: which is the language that has DEFUN and does not have LAMBDA? 12:40:26 jdz: python? 12:40:33 i wouldn't really write LAMBDA, because it already exists 12:40:46 pjb: it has macros, to? 12:40:49 but flet gives you named-lambda 12:40:54 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 12:40:56 alexandria:named-lambda 12:40:57 Actually, you'd define defun in fucntion of lambda, normally. 12:41:33 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.238.59.35] has joined #lisp 12:43:42 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-121-86.as43234.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:44:06 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 12:47:22 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.220.136] has joined #lisp 12:49:29 c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.2.154] has joined #lisp 12:50:12 when is using :cffi-grovel called for? e.g. if I am building a bridge layer that is very much coupled with a particular major revision of a runtime (implying no changes), is it actually appropriate to use grovel? 12:50:29 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.238.59.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:50:48 (it seems to me an extra layer of indirection prone to headaches, but maybe I'm missing something) 12:52:20 springz [~springz@115.173.150.211] has joined #lisp 12:53:00 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-150.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:53:55 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-226-34.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:56 -!- c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.2.154] has quit [Client Quit] 12:54:27 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 12:55:15 -!- Joreji [~thomas@90-123.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:56:22 Shaftoe: what runtime ? 12:56:28 objc 12:56:45 only on osx ? 12:58:17 yes 12:58:31 only objc2 12:58:49 or actually, 2.0 non legacy 12:59:54 then you can probably hardcode structs FFI definitions safely 13:00:27 alright. that's what I was thinking, but I was wondering if missed some finer point... 13:01:15 you're likely to be safe until the next OSX release 13:01:52 Actually, no. At least not if you want your application to run on the different existing versions of MacOSX. 13:03:45 pjb: the runtime is invariant. objc2.0 is objc2.0. 13:04:12 Oh right, I was thinking about the frameworks. 13:04:26 the general rule I'm following is that the gospel is the documented interface, not the implemented header. 13:04:45 I'm assuming everyone else follows that rule too, and that Apple sticks to its own gospel. 13:05:22 so concrete example, in the spec it says in english: " the new Objective-C ABI (not described here) further constrains sizeof(anInstance) to 32 bits". so I'm actually manually coding that in instead of groveling for size_t 13:05:56 bits ? 13:05:59 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@12.132.197.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:06:28 Yeah, it's a strange wording, but I'm interpreting that sizeof is a 32 bit int. 13:06:51 s/sizeof/size_t/ 13:07:22 the sentence right before that one makes it more clear: "The API constrains several values to 32-bit ints even in 64-bit modeclass count, protocol count..." 13:07:58 -!- huangjs [~user@190.8.100.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:09:02 Joreji [~thomas@90-123.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 13:09:09 -!- gko [~gko@220.228.255.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:10:33 -!- tsuru```` is now known as tsuru` 13:13:03 nikodemus: do you think it's reasonable to modify x86-64 vops to only account for n-fixnum-tag-bits == 1, or should they work for generic values of n-f-t-b? 13:14:00 cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:03 I think it's cool to have the possibility of 1 to 3 13:14:15 is there a neat microoptimization possible without, though? 13:15:22 for e.g. word-to-fixnum you can do LEA X, [Y+Y] instead of LEA X, [Y*N]; the former is a couple bytes smaller 13:16:18 i don't have a strong opinion either way 13:16:39 though unless we regularly test sizes other than 1, they're going to bitrot 13:17:23 maybe a have "build all the oddball variants" month once per year? 13:18:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@90-123.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:19:12 only worthwhile if $PEOPLE are willing to invest the time for fixing the corner cases 13:19:27 some may be easy to fix, some may be maddeningly hard 13:19:52 --> #sbcl? 13:20:01 doh 13:20:14 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:55 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 13:23:18 nikodemus: do you have an estimation about when you'll start madeira? no pressure. 13:23:36 i've already started on it 13:24:13 publication... when i'm pretty sure i don't break backwards-compatibility because i realize the API was wrong 13:24:17 oh, is a preliminary api available? 13:24:26 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:25:23 no 13:25:41 too much maybes still involved 13:26:12 (i don't have the time to handle comments at this stage, so i'm not making it public yet, as much as i'd like to) 13:26:19 feel free to shout at me if you want a guinnea pig to look at something that may well not work. i'm eager to find out what shape it's taking to potentially use it in the future. 13:26:38 i understand. thanks for the status update and good luck! 13:27:13 -!- kennyd_ [~kennyd@93-139-30-124.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Quit: bye] 13:29:25 -!- Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:29:27 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:30:06 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-172.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 13:30:08 woodz [~wooodz@host86-130-190-243.range86-130.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:30:13 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-58.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 13:33:40 Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has joined #lisp 13:36:19 huangjs [~user@200.54.109.17] has joined #lisp 13:40:43 Joreji [~thomas@90-123.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 13:43:41 -!- woodz [~wooodz@host86-130-190-243.range86-130.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 13:52:04 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.220.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:52:44 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 13:55:33 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:56:18 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m83-185-142-102.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 13:56:28 n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@188.19.142.11] has joined #lisp 13:58:12 Bacteria [~Bacteria@120.148.38.188] has joined #lisp 14:00:07 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@31.163.208.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:03:48 -!- Joreji [~thomas@90-123.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:04:19 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-lzneuccijiuuajba] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:13 add^_ [~add^_^@m83-185-142-102.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 14:05:38 hmm above english link for dragon language apparently has no relation to the russian space thing 14:06:00 gilez [~gdmalet@tux.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 14:06:19 russian space thing seems to be subvariant of UML, with space guys having some custom CASE tool that generates code out of it 14:07:19 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-133-210.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:07:27 maxm--: this one: http://drakon-editor.sourceforge.net/ ? 14:08:50 -!- mlkith [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: quit] 14:09:27 yea thats the one 14:10:37 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-rlvnqjzfzmxcfgdc] has joined #lisp 14:10:37 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-rlvnqjzfzmxcfgdc] has quit [Changing host] 14:10:38 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:10:49 basically so far its very similar to UML diagram it seems, but with a bit different spin on it.. Not sure if guy just renamed UML and changed stuff up, or its a geniune improvement 14:11:33 *maxm--* is reading the introductory PDF in russian 14:12:31 ... I am disappoint 14:12:43 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m83-185-142-102.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 14:13:24 is it such an anomaly to see good old flow graphs? 14:13:45 *maxm--* lols at examples including doing stuff in the morning, and one of the conditions is "hangover" 14:14:11 maxm--: anyway, that's nowhere like UML 14:14:48 it's a slightly more advanced variant of stuff I had read in 80s programming books published in East 14:15:10 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:15:24 [SLB] [~slabua@host92-170-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:15:24 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host92-170-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 14:15:24 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 14:15:46 yeah, CASE tools were the fad! 14:16:00 the kind of books that you could find a teenager with his 8bit reading 14:16:03 only diagraming stuff i liked was in some Ada book, with slated rectangles for tasks, rectangles for packages etc 14:16:13 made it easy to reason about parallel stuff 14:16:28 maxm--: it was advocated by at least one publishing series in Poland 14:16:36 as a way to reason about programs 14:16:39 That's indeed oldfashioned: the guy spends his time moving the boxes around. 14:16:58 add^_ [~add^_^@m83-185-142-102.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 14:16:59 optikalmouse [~user@76.9.199.178] has joined #lisp 14:17:00 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:17:02 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:06 pjb: yeah, he should have an automated layout engine 14:17:13 He can't edit directly on the boxes, he has to open a dialog. That's a very bad example of a GUI. 14:17:25 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:17:30 *maxm--* got to that link by reading about space stuff, apparently this is what used in Fregat upper stage, and the russian part of SeaLaunch 14:18:16 Well at least the connections with the boxes seems to be made automatically just moving them over the wires. 14:18:29 maxm--: such design methods were common 14:18:31 But there's no visual feedback of that fact. 14:18:51 maxm--: the difference might be that they put it into automated code generation at some point 14:19:06 Well, if you consider it's used more by physician and space engineers than programmers, perhaps. 14:19:12 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:19:33 pjb: these days they still use "ladder" graphs iirc in many places 14:19:40 I have a feeling they used it as in general algo is described by engeeneers who are not programmers, and then programmers stepped in to feel-in the parts 14:19:48 which are computer representation based on relay logic 14:20:07 maxm--: it was used to work on the whole algorithm and document the code 14:20:58 this seems to me like obvious move from "common documentation/reasoning tool" into "CASE" system 14:21:06 It's Sussman who must be spinning under his fez.. 14:21:36 maxm--: I'm pretty sure that at least at one point I had an old template ruler for those diagrams 14:21:46 heh 14:21:54 *maxm--* read the ada book before he had his first computer 14:22:08 maxm--: basically, you're rediscovering a sound engineering practice of old :) 14:22:16 except someone turned it into unwieldy graphic editor 14:22:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.148.102] has joined #lisp 14:22:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.148.102] has quit [Changing host] 14:22:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:22:45 this would have been *awesome* done slightly similar to Genera environment 14:22:53 not really rediscovering, but kind of surprised to see the CASE things actually used for real 14:23:19 maxm--: I had one too. In 1975. 14:23:23 IBM drive-in consultants pushing Rational tools, RUP and clear-case, kind of killed my interest in these things as impractical 14:23:30 maxm--: well, it's a different branch of CASE than you see often in bussines side 14:23:47 pon1980 [~pon1980@h66n6-haes-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:23:52 I pasted several sheets of A3 together to draw the organigram of a basic interpreter. 14:23:54 -!- pon1980 [~pon1980@h66n6-haes-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:24:19 maxm--: most of the code I had used those diagrams with was 6502 assembly 14:24:25 Unfortunately that was my first big program and I didn't know recursion yet, I had terrible difficulties with parenthesized expressions :-). 14:25:09 what is non-determinism again? are multi-threaded programs non-deterministic? 14:25:13 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 14:25:19 optikalmouse: often yes. 14:25:25 or does it help for me to think of a multi-threaded program as non-deterministic vs deterministic? 14:25:28 (amb 1 2) --> 1 or 2, you never know. 14:25:52 optikalmouse: yes, it does. 14:26:06 optikalmouse: (fork (progn (a) (b)) (progn (c) (d))) 14:26:23 optikalmouse: *concurrent* programs are usually non-deterministic systems composed of deterministic components 14:26:26 yes but you put constrains on them.. I actually found Ada's task with gates notation pretty elegant, their diagrams translated very directly into Ada code.. It had nice graphical notation for guarded gate,with the condition, forgot how it looked 14:26:38 non derministic means that the sequence could be any permutation of (a) (b) (c) (d). 14:26:50 (assuming a b c d are mutually exclusive). 14:27:28 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:34 Well, not any permuation, you still have (a) before (b) and (c) before (d). 14:27:46 did anyone have success with postmodern on abcl? 14:27:58 But your programs should work correctly whatever the order. 14:28:01 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:28:07 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:12 p_l: ah ok 14:28:28 so multithreaded is simply an implementation of concurrency/non-determinism? 14:28:35 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-fcbcaotwludgmjkj] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:28:37 Yes. 14:29:12 optikalmouse: no, it's a possible way to achieve it. there are deterministic multi-threaded programs, just like there are concurrent non deterministic single-threaded programs 14:29:45 but most of the time, threaded programs are non-deterministic, yes 14:30:37 threaded deterministic means you know what the order of execution is across threads, yes? 14:32:31 -!- dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has left #lisp 14:32:46 -!- nepnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:32:56 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@120.148.38.188] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33:07 optikalmouse: doesn't have to be *very* specific, but many typical openmp operations behave deterministic 14:33:10 nepnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:33:15 Bacteria [~Bacteria@120.148.38.188] has joined #lisp 14:33:50 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.61.203] has joined #lisp 14:33:59 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-71-77.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:34:13 ok I think I kinda sorta understand it :p 14:34:35 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:34:49 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-71-77.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:35:58 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:37:45 Hi guys 14:38:06 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:43 hi loke 14:39:14 xach: I have some nice improvments to docbrowser 14:39:19 want to see? (no search yet though) 14:39:29 I'm also using SWANK now, so no more sbcl deps 14:39:36 yes! 14:39:47 OK, hold. I need to open the fw 14:39:48 Bacteria_ [~Bacteria@120.148.38.188] has joined #lisp 14:40:35 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:50 -!- Bacteria_ [~Bacteria@120.148.38.188] has quit [Client Quit] 14:41:25 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.93.242] has joined #lisp 14:42:10 OK 14:42:14 http://115.66.85.121:8080 14:42:37 X-Scale [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 14:42:52 check something with good docs 14:43:16 loke: might be interesting to separate types, conditions, & classes 14:43:17 Drakma is a good example 14:43:22 Yeah. I will 14:43:23 alexandria adds a bunch of types 14:43:28 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@120.148.38.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:43:30 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-192-6.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:47 loke: nice 14:43:56 p_l: thanks 14:44:24 loke: would be fun if I could have something like that integrated locally, the same way as hyperspec-lookup 14:44:31 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:44:34 p_l: it is 14:44:47 p_l: just sync the source, quickload it and run START-SERVER 14:44:59 nice 14:45:05 http://code.google.com/p/doc-server/source/checkout 14:46:01 oops 14:46:03 wrong link 14:46:14 Kvaks [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:46:25 http://code.google.com/p/docbrowser/source/checkout 14:46:30 that's the one 14:46:32 :-) 14:47:27 If you want a feature, just let me know 14:47:32 Or log a bug 14:48:59 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:49:08 loke: I like it. I think the class browser section in particular is a step forward with the collapsable slots/specialized by sections. 14:49:35 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:49:44 loke: :O AWESOME 14:49:51 Vivitron: I'm building this this for myself, primarily. But I'm hoping others would find it useful 14:50:07 is it going to end up being like a Smalltalk package browser? :o 14:50:10 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-29-116.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 14:50:15 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-29-116.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 14:51:15 incandenza [~textual@ip68-231-126-199.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:19 optikalmouse: I have no idea. I've never done any Smalltalk :-) 14:51:29 bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 14:51:38 I wanted to build it because I find it annoying as hell to explore libraraies 14:51:44 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120403211507]] 14:51:59 kanru` [~user@61-228-149-181.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:19 yeah you're going to want to download a Smalltalk and check it out. they have a nice interface for exploring 14:52:52 optikalmouse: I downloaded one not that long ago, but I never could figure out what I was doing and never got to actually touch the language :-) 14:52:56 loke: http://progopedia.com/static/upload_img/2009/11/23/aWorkspaceWithTimeProfileBrowserAndHierarchyBrowser.png 14:53:26 loke: System Browser = listing of packages, then classes then categories of methods, then methods 14:53:43 snearch [~snearch@f053010228.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:53:59 optikalmouse: ah yes. Those things are somewhat more tricky in CL though 14:56:00 loke: visual improvement suggestion, for Slots (3) line etc, put 1st 3-4 slots on the same line, followed by ... if there is more.. so for classes with few slots, it would look like: Slots (3): slot-a, slot-b, slot-3 14:56:19 loke: and add ... if there more.. Cut off by 40 chars or such 14:56:24 maxm--: good suggestion 14:56:31 I will do that 14:56:41 Not now though, as I will go to sleep soon 14:56:53 icrazyhack [~horieyui@115.173.241.77] has joined #lisp 14:56:54 maxm--: Can you put it in a bug report on the google code site? So that I don't forget it? 14:57:29 -!- incandenza [~textual@ip68-231-126-199.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 14:57:30 loke: a little tricky, but I'm sure it's easier than doing it for...Ruby let's say. 14:57:44 optikalmouse: Well perhaps :-) 14:58:21 optikalmouse: Actually, most of my work has gone into designing my template language. :-) The docbrowser is just a test-case for it :-) 14:58:32 I was thinking about it, but Ruby is crap because the documentation is plain text, you have to parse the file itself again to get access to it :/ 15:00:10 -!- Skola [~Skola@89.184.179.185] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:00:29 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 15:02:24 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:04:10 slyrus [~chatzilla@66-140-241-100.ded.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:42 loke: done 15:08:12 maxm--: Thanks 15:08:25 Remember that right now it really doesn't work very well on anything but SBCL. 15:08:44 I've fixed it so that it uses Swank for introspection, but swank behaves seriously weird on CCL 15:09:24 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:34 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@66-140-241-100.ded.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:11:10 BeWhy [~chatzilla@c-76-124-138-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:43 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:25 _class_ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:30 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 15:15:42 how weird? 15:17:00 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:17:11 -!- _class_ is now known as __class__ 15:18:14 stassats: Well... 15:18:29 -!- icrazyhack [~horieyui@115.173.241.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:19:37 well? 15:19:40 Let's take a class. For example BABEL:EXERNAL-FORMAT. Now apply swank-backend:who-specializes on it 15:20:00 The output makes sense, and follows the form as documented in swap 15:20:01 swank 15:20:30 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@50.Red-88-11-24.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 15:20:37 The documentation says: 'The results is a list ((DSPEC LOCATION) ...).' 15:21:12 Hold on. I'll lisppaste the output from SBCL vs. CCL 15:21:53 -!- visar [~visar@77.29.222.240] has left #lisp 15:21:56 oh my, slime went berserk on my ccl 15:23:18 Damn. No ccl on this machine. 15:23:20 Wait a second 15:23:20 icrazyhack [~horieyui@115.173.241.77] has joined #lisp 15:23:29 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053010228.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 15:25:18 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:25:18 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-29-116.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:25:18 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-29-116.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:19 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:27:17 rme [~rme@50.43.137.11] has joined #lisp 15:27:37 oh, i see, ccl stopped working with *communication-style* nil 15:27:41 *stassats* sighs 15:31:54 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:27 -!- huangjs [~user@200.54.109.17] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:34:44 huangjs [~user@200.54.109.17] has joined #lisp 15:37:40 slyrus [~chatzilla@97.72.227.80] has joined #lisp 15:40:02 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.64.172] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:40:20 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:29 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.64.172] has joined #lisp 15:42:12 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-192-6.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 15:44:02 OK 15:44:06 I looked a bit more 15:44:09 My problem is this: 15:44:10 http://paste.lisp.org/display/128939 15:44:30 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.93.242] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:45:06 Look at how in SBCL, the methods are all shown as ((DEFMETHOD ... while in CCL there is both ((:METHOD ... as well as ((CCL:READER-METHOD (:METHOD ... 15:45:26 yes, they are different, is that the problem? 15:45:52 What is the proper strategy for extracting the relevant information without hard-coding all the different ways this cen be represented? 15:46:19 swank isn't really intended for that 15:46:34 clearly 15:46:44 ouch. can't commit changes to slime-cl-indent.el because it has long lines 15:46:59 How long? 15:47:00 ...and not all of them are easy to fix :/ 15:47:19 over 80. slime CVS now enforces short lines 15:47:36 nikodemus: why? Sound annoying as hell 15:48:08 I usually go a bit over 100 15:48:43 116 is the longest I can find with a quick brose in this project 15:48:54 -!- icrazyhack [~horieyui@115.173.241.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:49:05 policy is policy 15:49:20 Yeah, I was just curious as to the reason for that policy 15:49:41 so that you don't have to fix the long lines afterwards? 15:50:52 -!- les [~les@unaffiliated/les] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:52:31 FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has joined #lisp 15:53:16 stassats: no, there's no need, you can just use continuation cards. 15:53:21 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:53:40 Split long lines over two cards. 15:54:24 Ah those youngsters, you have to teach them all this refined techniques 15:54:37 yay. irc at 39k feet. 15:54:59 -!- jakky [jokk@2001:470:33:2::1ce] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:55:21 the guys on ISS are not impressed 15:55:33 heh 15:56:31 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@195.160.233.181] has joined #lisp 15:57:03 can you measure how fast are you going by using ping? 15:59:07 Shozan [~shozan@c-2cb4e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:59:09 -!- bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:59:41 -!- cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 16:00:19 grumble grumble... how do I get format to print 02 or -02 rather than 02 or -2 (which I get with ~2,'0D)? 16:00:30 slyrus: you can't. 16:00:32 stassats: assuming slyrus uses internet in flight, no. 16:00:44 At best, you can get, if you used 4 char width "00-2". 16:01:02 ok, thanks pjb 16:01:07 p_l: why is that? 16:01:12 slyrus: that's strange isn't it? 16:01:51 bogus really 16:01:51 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 16:02:04 stassats: because you're going through a geostationary satellite, so at best you'll get the distance to satellite (which is measurable, yes), but won't be good enough to measure speed 16:04:37 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.171] has joined #lisp 16:04:46 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-58.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:06:29 slyrus: shows that padding isn't really intended for adding leading zeros 16:06:29 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.42.8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:50 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m83-185-142-102.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 16:08:57 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@97.72.227.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:09:10 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129057010.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:09:18 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-58.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:10:00 Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:13 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:00 but you can use "~:[~;-~]~2,'0D" with (minusp n) (abs n) 16:12:45 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-29-116.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 16:12:45 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-29-116.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 16:13:15 les [~les@lesharris.com] has joined #lisp 16:13:15 -!- les [~les@lesharris.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:13:15 les [~les@unaffiliated/les] has joined #lisp 16:13:20 -!- les [~les@unaffiliated/les] has quit [Client Quit] 16:14:07 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:14:14 les [~les@lesharris.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:15 -!- les [~les@lesharris.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:14:15 les [~les@unaffiliated/les] has joined #lisp 16:14:25 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:32 add^_ [~add^_^@m83-185-142-102.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 16:14:49 -!- les [~les@unaffiliated/les] has quit [Client Quit] 16:15:10 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:15:19 -!- dys [~user@krlh-5f71d440.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:21 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:16:08 this looks nice http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/04/12/light-table---a-new-ide-concept/ 16:16:23 violence has been done, and slime-cl-indent.el now wraps at 80 16:16:27 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:16:39 nikodemus: same with changelog entries? 16:17:32 optikalmouse: that's exactly what emacs does 16:17:57 Xach: helmut already did those 16:18:02 ok phew 16:18:28 can't commit anymore if there are long lines -- there's a hook that checks everything going in a commit 16:19:08 are cvs hooks sufficiently atomic, or do you get to do half a commit? 16:19:08 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:19:10 what would be a better wording for a format error: "colinc 0, should be a positive integer"? 16:19:23 or "colinc should be a positive integer, 0 supplied", or something else 16:19:24 pjb: I was thinking more along the lines of racket 16:19:33 it just looks fancier :p 16:19:39 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m83-185-142-102.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 16:19:41 slyrus [~chatzilla@97.72.227.80] has joined #lisp 16:19:52 Is there an apropos function for searching through all documentation of functions/variables? 16:19:57 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-58.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:20:00 stassats: the second is better but it seems like something else might be even better (i don't know what) 16:20:07 *dim* thinks about hemlock and ccl support for webkit, and doing a termkit like cl emacs 16:20:10 Kryztof: because i didn't get strange conflicts, i think it stops them entirely 16:20:12 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 16:20:12 Xach: yeah, i don't really like either 16:20:28 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 16:20:45 "i don't need no 0, give me a positive number" 16:20:58 that interface also looks like Smalltalk too...weird how past ideas are re-interpreted to look shinier :p 16:21:29 jiggliemon [~jiggliemo@pool-173-58-9-84.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:36 Hello! 16:21:36 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:21:41 optikalmouse: but otherwise, it looks nice indeed. Let's implement the same in emacs. 16:21:44 "Think positively, not simply non-negatively" 16:22:10 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 16:22:10 My name's jiggliemon && I don't know what I'm doing 16:22:29 i think this is enough for today 16:22:31 what if sbcl gave error messages like minion talks? 16:22:47 jiggliemon: you are chatting on an IRC channel. the topic of the channel is Common Lisp, so that is the best thing about which to chat. 16:22:51 I just installed clisp on my mac last night, but I can't get it to run my files. 16:22:54 like "sbcl: you speak nonsense!" 16:22:56 pjb: entirely possible, which is scary....just need to get w3m-mode working properly :p 16:23:00 thanks Xach 16:23:10 jiggliemon: how are you trying to run them? 16:23:12 jiggliemon: this is not helpful. 16:23:17 Im doing clisp index.lisp 16:23:24 jiggliemon: http://mohiji.nfshost.com/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-osx/ is a nice guide 16:23:24 Let me get you what's in that file 16:23:26 "Would you /please/ stop making bugs? 3 errors in 40 seconds is too many." 16:23:31 jiggliemon: try to use your finger to type commands into the computer. 16:23:35 jiggliemon: no need. i think you might want to start over from scratch. 16:23:39 minion: tell jiggliemon about pcl-book 16:23:39 jiggliemon: have a look at pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 16:23:41 jiggliemon: check that link and see if it helps. 16:23:58 Alright 16:24:11 add^_ [~add^_^@m83-185-142-102.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 16:24:11 that is also a fine, fine book about common lisp 16:24:42 I got "Little Schemer" 16:24:45 Best to drop that? 16:25:02 jiggliemon: No, but Common Lisp is not Scheme. 16:25:08 it appears to be written back in lord knows when. 16:25:10 Right. 16:25:15 jiggliemon: use a scheme implementation to read the Little Schemer. 16:25:24 les [~les@lesharris.com] has joined #lisp 16:25:25 -!- les [~les@lesharris.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:25:25 les [~les@unaffiliated/les] has joined #lisp 16:25:31 so, nobody has a better idea on this error message? 16:26:01 pjb: right. Im just trying to get bearings on where best to start my intro to the lisp dialects in this day in age. 16:26:17 My scheme attempts (w/ drracket) have been a dead end. 16:26:28 "The value of coling is -1, which is not a positive integer"? 16:26:31 I'll look at your stuff Xach 16:26:43 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:26:46 jiggliemon: http://cliki.net/ 16:26:47 or "should be a positive integer" 16:27:00 stassats: debug? trace? :S 16:27:14 optikalmouse: debug and trace what? 16:27:23 stassats: I dont know, I just wanted to try and be useful =< 16:27:42 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.137.11] has left #lisp 16:27:49 optikalmouse: you can start by reading the context above 16:28:25 minion: tell jiggliemon about faq 16:28:26 jiggliemon: look at faq: Nikodemus' CL FAQ: http://random-state.net/files/nikodemus-cl-faq.html 16:28:26 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 16:29:10 i think i like best so far "The value of colinc is -1, should be a positive integer" 16:29:12 it's *so* good to have minion back 16:29:20 *nikodemus* heaps kudos on stassats 16:29:34 that sounds reasonable 16:30:02 *stassats* still has a lot to do to ship minion back to cl.net 16:31:07 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:32:18 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:34:01 nikodemus: so is clisp not a recommended interpreter? 16:34:16 and we don't signal an error for negative mincols 16:34:25 this cliki says to use OpenMCL 16:34:36 although they don't cause infinite loops, would be nice for debugging too 16:35:06 jiggliemon: I recommend clisp. 16:35:07 jiggliemon: clozure cl is very nice on osx, as it has full cocoa bindings 16:35:19 if this is osx and not prior macos 16:35:20 jiggliemon: clisp has the best debugger, on non compiled code. 16:35:35 "as long as you are just starting out it really doesn't matter. However, if you are expecting a particular group of people to help you, do pick an implementation they are familiar with." 16:35:36 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.93.242] has joined #lisp 16:35:43 http://random-state.net/files/nikodemus-cl-faq.html#which-implementation-should-i-pick 16:35:51 jiggliemon: I told you to read cliki http://www.cliki.net/TutorialClispDebugger 16:36:14 Right - Which does this familiar w/ ? 16:36:30 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:36:48 paul0 [~user@200.175.62.253.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 16:36:51 I'm familiar with clisp and ccl mostly. (but I use all the implementations). 16:37:06 i /think/ most people here use sbcl. ccl and clisp come in second, but i don't have any hard numbers 16:37:50 Alright i'll stick to clisp since it's pretty familiar. 16:37:54 I am certain that most people here use SBCL, and most people who use Common Lisp use SBCL. 16:38:22 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177960550.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:38:27 alright sbcl it is. 16:39:08 Most people here are on Linux? 16:39:26 yes 16:40:14 yeah 16:40:27 Radium [~carbon@117.203.16.56] has joined #lisp 16:40:39 *Xach* uses SBCL on OS X and Linux 16:42:01 *howeyc* uses sbcl on FreeBSD and Windows 16:42:29 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 16:42:30 Installing SBCL was the easiest thing i've done all week. 16:42:55 jiggliemon: good to hear. there are a lot of pitfalls for the unwary, like trying to build it from macports or from debian's central repos 16:42:57 word of caution - don't attempt to install mit-scheme on a mac 16:43:02 *Xach* eyes dlowe 16:43:09 dlowe: will you be at mary chung's on the 19th? 16:43:26 Xach: yeah - I gave up && installed clisp from macports 16:43:29 gonna delete it now 16:43:39 No, keep it. 16:43:44 jiggliemon: you need several implementations. 16:44:01 minion: advice on portable? 16:44:01 #12017: It doesn't need to be portable, it just needs to work on your system. 16:44:03 Not really. 16:44:24 I hope there is a new CLISP release soon. 16:44:26 I don't like macports && I don't like duplicate software on this box 16:44:46 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:57 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:45:12 Thanks for your help guys 16:45:37 Gonna read these things && nikodemus's goodies 16:46:15 jiggliemon: when you don't understand an error message on one implementation, compile with another, you'll have very fast another outlook on your sources! 16:46:16 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:19 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@195.160.233.181] has quit [Quit: egnarts-ms] 16:47:25 -!- huangjs [~user@200.54.109.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:48:33 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 16:49:44 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:51:44 the lisp example at http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html is missing the definition of the function random-elt, sayth CCL 16:52:22 maybe I need http://www.norvig.com/paip/simple.lisp instead 16:52:37 snits [~snits@75-167-15-187.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:41 ainm [~ainm@68.Red-83-36-191.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:43 you can take one from alexandria 16:52:58 norvig.com is down for me? Odd. 16:53:05 well, this is a clever bit of work: http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/04/12/light-table---a-new-ide-concept/ 16:53:15 I guess that's clojure 16:53:20 It is. 16:53:22 but the system would be great for CL 16:53:24 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:53:29 This is exactly what emacs does. 16:53:29 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:35 yeah 16:53:52 the presentation there is pretty novel/interesting, though 16:53:52 Now, the only difference is that emacs split always windows in two, you cannot place little rectangles in the middle of the frame. 16:53:58 But this could be changed. 16:54:03 It's nice. 16:54:57 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA07AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:55:22 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@50.Red-88-11-24.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:34 c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.238.48.155] has joined #lisp 16:55:49 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:55:49 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 16:55:49 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 16:55:49 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.93.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:57:52 i like not having to organize functions into files, like in interlisp 16:58:49 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-116-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:54 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:10 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 16:59:30 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 16:59:33 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:59:38 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@97.72.227.80] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:04:20 with an image based runtime, there's some sense in that. 17:05:46 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:07:17 i wonder if there are things that will break only at runtime with the cffi update 17:07:32 *Xach* wishes for some kind of coral reef of tests to accumulate 17:07:55 *Xach* can probably do that with qlmapper or similar 17:11:16 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-fzntpjcacznnabvq] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:14:06 slyrus [~chatzilla@97.72.227.80] has joined #lisp 17:14:15 bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 17:15:13 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:18:57 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-245.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:21:07 in cffi, the way to do the equivalent of typedef foo *bar; necessarily through define-foreign-type or can defctype be used somehow? 17:21:07 Xach: the semantics for mem-aref changed, so anything using a nonscalar type with mem-aref will break .. i believe cl-gtk2 is one of these 17:21:15 Xach: and yes this is only at runtime 17:21:22 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:21:28 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-175-251.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:21:48 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:22:21 i haven't tested with the final merge, but leading up to, that was the only thing i encountered 17:22:55 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:23:20 Shaftoe: just (defctype foo :pointer) 17:23:35 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 17:24:06 what if I want to do (defcstruct bar ...) and then (defctype foo bar-pointer)? 17:24:17 or do I just use pointer and lose that info? 17:24:25 er .. my C is backwards now .. (defctype bar :pointer) heh 17:25:20 or (defctype bar (:pointer foo)) though i'm not sure how much difference it makes 17:25:56 oGMo: ok, so does the (:pointer foo) actually mean that it is a foo pointer, or does it just make me feel better about something meaningless? =) 17:26:50 the manual says "The new type inherits base-type's translators, if any. " and not much else about what the list means. 17:27:07 so I'm not really clear on what is the proper way to do things. 17:27:21 Shaftoe: with the latest i'm not sure .. (:pointer foo) is understood in more places with the libffi update, but i'm not sure how much it's used for simple types like that. in some cases you may want to use just a bare :pointer so it doesn't perform any magic 17:27:27 (and fyi, right now, I'm just declaring everything :pointer but that's just asking for a disaster) 17:28:53 ime it depends on your wrapper implementation .. i prefer a thin approach with generated wrappers that deref the pointer on demand 17:29:00 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:29:06 if you have lots of type translation it may be a different story 17:29:20 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:13 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:30:22 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 17:31:09 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:31:45 oGMo: yes, I too, prefer the thin wrapper approach. And I know I *can* do it with nothing but pointers, I was wondering though if I should try to keep the information from C of typedef'ing pointer types. (they are all pointers, but they have the type associated). At the very least, it could allow me to enforce that certain wrapper functions are called with the appropriate pointer types 17:32:02 I'll mess around some more, but thanks 17:32:24 Shaftoe: there's no reason _not_ to, in that it might be used later, and you migth be able to query it 17:32:36 yessum, indeed. 17:33:18 good point... so even if (:pointer foo) doesn't actually do what I'd wish it would do, it'd still have the side effect of having created a new ctype... ok. sold. 17:34:15 this is assuming you do all your definitions by hand .. last time i just used a modified swig 17:34:31 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.202.245] has joined #lisp 17:34:37 i should really post the patch someplace because it takes advantage of the new stuff in cffi too 17:35:03 (and the unmodified swig-cffi is broken badly) 17:35:13 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:35:57 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:02 yeah, I'm working on a pet project that might become real one day or not. But the bottom line is that it's a obj-c bridge. and I'm quite intent on a static, completely un-automated initial interface layer. 17:36:16 it's automated in that I used extensive keyboard macros and some list processing. 17:36:29 but I don't want any automation to occur at package load. 17:36:51 heh 17:37:58 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-57-5.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 17:38:35 [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has joined #lisp 17:39:07 joachifm [~user@2001:1ad8:c:a4b:2e27:d7ff:fea9:27b6] has joined #lisp 17:42:27 *[6502]* hates that lexical vars (e.g. function parameters) are interned symbols :-( 17:44:35 -!- hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:44:56 What would you prefer? 17:45:11 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has left #lisp 17:45:16 doesn't the interning take place at read time? 17:46:17 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has joined #lisp 17:46:23 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:46:55 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 17:47:02 Phoodus: yes. 17:47:28 [6502]: but the compiler makes them disappear, so why do you hate it? 17:47:51 [6502]: furthermore, nobody prevents you to write (defun double (#1=#:x) (* 2 #1#)) 17:48:08 heh 17:48:26 <[6502]> the problem is in macros where the symbols you get in input are from random pakages... 17:48:59 what does that matter? 17:49:08 <[6502]> and if you want to generate symbols is not obvious in which package you should intern them 17:49:15 cpinera [~cpinera@134.134.139.72] has joined #lisp 17:49:30 [6502]: gensym does not intern them 17:49:34 [6502]: it's obvious, but you have to be conscious of it. 17:50:13 [6502]: Hmm, I ran into that problem when I was getting started, but not any more. I think it's something that goes away with practice & context. 17:50:14 and document it. 17:50:23 <[6502]> oGMo: i'm talking about anaphoric macros that introduce lexicals in the scope of the caller 17:50:33 Those are generally dreadful. 17:50:40 [6502]: let the user specify the anaphoric variable! 17:50:43 pass the varnames you wish to use into the macro 17:50:49 [6502]: then you have a specific purpose, which should be specific enough to define where they are interned, and what Phoodus said 17:51:02 (aif it (find e s) (print it)) 17:51:03 even if it's a prefix, then the macro can intern up symbols in the same package as the prefix symbol 17:52:14 <[6502]> pjb: suppose i want to introduce (symbol-macrolet ((move-to (x y) ...) (line-to (x y) ...) ... and a dozen more ) ,@body) 17:52:50 <[6502]> pjb: should the caller use (with-canvas move-to line-to arc fill ..... my-canvas ....) ? 17:52:54 you could ensure they are in _your_ package 17:53:06 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:17 <[6502]> oGMo: how can i be sure that the caller didn't intern them first? 17:53:26 then the user can (with-canvas (your-canvas:move-to ..)), or import them if desired 17:53:43 [6502]: if they interned them in your package, that would be rather bad behavior 17:53:59 if they imported your package, they are already using yours 17:54:02 <[6502]> no... i mean the user interned them in its package 17:54:05 *Phoodus* tends to export those symbols 17:54:24 <[6502]> or there is an overlapping with a CL symbol name 17:54:24 export & :use/use-package are typical ways to use someone else's symbols to name things. 17:54:38 shadowing is a way to manage overlaps 17:55:00 <[6502]> seems so complex... :-( 17:55:08 it's really not 17:55:10 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:55:21 it pretty much "just works" 17:55:23 you are likely thinking of symbols and packages in a way that's not exactly accurate 17:55:53 when you do (let ((list (build-something ...))) ...) is it a problem that 'LIST was already interned in another package? 17:57:05 <[6502]> Phoodus: no... but if I pass circle to a macro and the macro has to define a with-circle macro then where with-circle should be interned is a problem 17:57:36 shouldn't it be in your package? 17:58:03 [6502]: you could follow the example set by defstruct 17:58:05 it should go into the same package that CIRCLE came from, but I might see an issue if that original symbol can from yet another package 17:58:20 [6502]: though i also don't like defstruct creating symbols from mine; i prefer to give explicit names, like defclass requires. 17:58:23 <[6502]> oGMo: i think it should be in user package, because probably in the body the user already has "with-circle" 17:58:28 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.16.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:58:51 i think there's a fundamental misunderstanding here 17:59:00 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@97.72.227.80] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:59:48 <[6502]> probably... 17:59:54 <[6502]> i'll try to read some source code 18:00:43 -!- springz [~springz@115.173.150.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:01:00 <[6502]> xach: wow... i never realized before that defclass syntax has this "advantage" by not requiring more interning... 18:01:18 ? 18:01:45 <[6502]> oGMo: in defstruct you say "x" and get magically a "p2d-x" 18:02:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:02:28 <[6502]> oGMo: finding where to intern p2d-x is not trivial 18:02:40 it's not? 18:03:08 <[6502]> oGMo: may be x is from CL 18:03:30 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 18:04:10 <[6502]> oGMo: in (defun rect-area (x y) (* x y)) may be x is CL::x and y is instead my-package::y 18:04:42 <[6502]> or may be I'm totally confused (quite probably indeed) 18:04:53 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:55 Not a good example, because the symbols in CL are finite and static. 18:05:24 <[6502]> Xach: I said CL but of course it could be any of the packages the user is working with 18:05:31 and you have to explicitly import unexported symbols, if that's even compliant 18:06:25 Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:32 the thing is, when you make a package, you always explicitly specify what you're importing, even CL 18:06:38 [6502]: What does defstruct do? 18:06:59 <[6502]> xach: i'll check :-) 18:07:23 [6502]: ah, pretty clear in the spec: "interning the resulting symbol in the package that is current at the time the defstruct form is expanded." 18:07:32 makes sense. 18:07:48 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 18:09:36 <[6502]> Xach: this means that it's unpredictable? 18:09:46 [6502]: I don't see how. 18:10:31 People generally signal the intended current package very explicitly with in-package at the top of a file. 18:11:27 <[6502]> Xach: i thought that an implementation was allowed for example to delay macroexpansion (or even to perform the same expansion multiple times) 18:12:00 ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.40] has joined #lisp 18:12:03 <[6502]> i need to study more... 18:12:07 <[6502]> dinner time... l8r 18:12:23 -!- [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:18:58 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:19:43 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:20:59 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:21:38 would have been cool to come up with new algorithm for read/eval/print, where read returns "potential" symbols, and eval does a "resolve" step before using any potential symbol, passing it to a resolver, with the context 18:21:44 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:21:57 potential symbol being: name, and value of *package* when symbol was read 18:22:38 and default resolver doing the default thing (intern (potential-name s) (potential-package s)).. 18:22:52 maxm--: pjb's reader afaik had a hook 18:22:53 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:23:03 that sounds a lot like what I've been experimenting with 18:23:03 yea but its called at read time 18:23:13 the "context" is available only at eval or compile time 18:23:44 personally, I only want non-interning reader, then maybe relative and hierarchical packages (ACL + ZetaLisp) 18:23:48 ie only when evaluator is processing a special form LET, its known that symbols inside have the context of lexical or special variable 18:24:45 and idea is that resolver could resolve symbol differently based on context, such as for lexical variables, always intern them in the package, of where the LET was read in 18:26:10 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-58.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 18:36:00 Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has joined #lisp 18:36:52 Radium [~carbon@117.203.2.40] has joined #lisp 18:37:19 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:39:45 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:49 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA07AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:40:37 lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-234-209.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:38 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-234-209.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:40:38 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 18:40:44 rannger [~administr@112.94.76.194] has joined #lisp 18:45:27 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.131.133] has joined #lisp 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[~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:00 FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:01 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:09:13 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:09:21 -!- rannger [~administr@112.94.76.194] has left #lisp 19:09:25 BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:56 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA07AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:52 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:24 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 19:13:54 -!- joachifm [~user@2001:1ad8:c:a4b:2e27:d7ff:fea9:27b6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14:03 alvis`` [~user@tx-184-6-178-38.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:44 Bike [~Glossina@192.102.5.50] has joined #lisp 19:16:00 -!- alvis` [~user@tx-184-6-178-38.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:16:04 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:16:23 BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:59 new [~eamon@subtlepath.org] has joined #lisp 19:17:59 -!- BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:18:00 BrianRice` [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:27 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: .] 19:18:35 Little question about "unintern". Does it mean to make symbol have no home package? Or does it mean to delete symbol from current package? 19:19:04 asvil: l1sp.org/cl/unintern spells it out exactly 19:19:05 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:19:28 specs are handy like that 19:19:37 who would've thought! 19:20:03 Oh, thanks. While reading cltl, I forget that I can also read clhs:) 19:20:14 cltl2 unintern 19:20:16 Do implementations besides ABCL and SBCL define crhodes' extensible sequences? 19:20:25 specbot: hey, slacker 19:20:46 asvil: if symbol A::FOO has been imported into package B, uninterning it from B just removes it from B, but it still has a home package of A. Uninterning it from A removes it from A and makes it so it has no home package, but it is still present in B. 19:21:25 -!- paul0 [~user@200.175.62.253.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:21:26 Xach: thanks. 19:22:41 BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:43 -!- BrianRice` [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:24:16 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-29-116.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:24:38 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.219] has joined #lisp 19:24:51 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-29-116.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 19:25:00 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 19:25:14 cltl2 unintern 19:25:14 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node118.html 19:25:40 doesn't have anchors 19:26:21 but anyway, cltl2 tells the same thing about unintern as clhs in this regard 19:28:08 By the way, I am refactoring cltl2ed now, and making index of cltl book better. 19:28:23 I mean LaTeX sources 19:30:23 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:05 paul0 [~user@177.41.242.43] has joined #lisp 19:31:14 slyrus [~chatzilla@184.169.40.209] has joined #lisp 19:31:59 pspace [~andrew@d118-75-188-8.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:24 drl [~drl@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 19:32:43 If it is interesting for someone, you can see sources here: https://github.com/filonenko-mikhail/cltl2-doc-ru 19:32:43 Now there is only russian online html version. But it possible to generate english html for cltl2ed with archors to all symbols. 19:33:16 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:33:55 adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:57 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 19:35:31 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 249 seconds] 19:38:07 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:04 rme [~rme@50.43.137.11] has joined #lisp 19:44:10 -!- ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:45:31 asvil: Sorry to swoop in like kibo, but I saw in the logs that you've been working on the CLTL2 sources. Have you managed to typeset the files with a current Latex? 19:48:46 ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:20 rme, if I understand your question right, than my answer is yes:) 19:51:57 I tried to do it a while ago, but something was choking on parts defun.tex. 19:51:59 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.208.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:52:40 rme. Ah ok. I understand now. 19:53:51 rme: I remake all TeX code, and now there is simplified commands_html.tex, which contain commands.tex, defun.tex, marginal.tex 19:53:58 patrice [~user@vzn18-1-88-165-200-27.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:43 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.217.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 19:55:00 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-29-116.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55:00 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-29-116.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55:40 Also I generate html version of cltl2ed by tex4ht, which provide better result. 19:56:04 -!- flipout [~user@75-175-121-203.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:56:45 You can see online version is here (sorry, russian only): http://filonenko-mikhail.github.com/cltl2-doc-ru/ 19:56:55 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:57:26 asvil: So if I clone your repository, how would I build the document? 19:57:27 But sources also contain english texts 19:58:03 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:59 rme: comment this line https://github.com/filonenko-mikhail/cltl2-doc-ru/blob/master/clm.tex#L3 and just "make" 20:01:26 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:01:27 Thank you. I'm interested in this because I have been thinking for a long time about what to do with ccl's documentation, and this approach might be a possible alternative to our current Docbook manual. 20:02:34 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.2.40] has quit [] 20:04:09 rme: pdf version - comment line and make, html version - comment line and ./makehtml.sh 20:04:50 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 20:04:55 Greetings lispers 20:04:58 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:05:05 -!- bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 20:05:30 asvil: Thanks; it worked. 20:06:48 ThomasH: sup bro 20:08:17 Guthur [~user@host86-148-167-55.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:09:23 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 20:09:31 Radium [~carbon@117.203.2.40] has joined #lisp 20:12:05 -!- patrice [~user@vzn18-1-88-165-200-27.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: bye.] 20:12:12 -!- slyrus 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[~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:34:43 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.2.40] has quit [Client Quit] 20:36:13 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-013.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:36:17 <3 lisp 20:36:50 flipout [~user@75-175-121-203.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:53 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:38:10 -!- Bike [~Glossina@192.102.5.50] has quit [Quit: I had better get something to eat] 20:38:39 Radium [~carbon@117.203.2.40] has joined #lisp 20:38:42 Combatjuan [~charwood@24.111.12.82] has joined #lisp 20:40:51 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.2.40] has quit [Client Quit] 20:43:34 -!- clintm_ [~clintm@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: clintm_] 20:47:20 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:47:40 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 20:48:20 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 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has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:58:28 Radium [~carbon@117.203.2.40] has joined #lisp 20:59:20 madnificient: I must concur. 20:59:44 FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:47 -!- FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 21:00:18 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-013.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:00:19 FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:23 -!- FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 21:00:27 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:00:36 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:00:50 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-148-167-55.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01:18 Guthur [~user@host86-148-167-55.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 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#lisp 21:09:19 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:10:05 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@mobile-166-147-099-075.mycingular.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:13:55 Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.2.40] has joined #lisp 21:14:56 -!- Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.2.40] has quit [Client Quit] 21:15:19 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:15:19 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:35 There is no package named "CLOS" . [Condition of type CCL::NO-SUCH-PACKAGE] 21:15:38 Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.2.40] has joined #lisp 21:15:47 really, ccl is not including clos? 21:15:52 it's not lying! 21:16:06 damn. 21:16:07 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:16:07 clos lives in package "CL 21:16:08 " 21:16:22 -!- antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-iwjaxlxcadsgfwcr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:05 can I add a nickname easily? 21:17:14 -!- Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.2.40] has quit [Client Quit] 21:17:31 dim: What are you doing that you need a CLOS package? 21:17:38 Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.2.40] has joined #lisp 21:17:42 dim: to what? 21:17:44 (ql:quickload "cl-csv") 21:18:17 stassats: I guess if I add 'CLOS as a nickname for CL (given that I understood correctly your last remark that CCL implements CLOS in CL), cl-csv would compile 21:18:38 you guessed wrong 21:19:05 good to know, what part(s) are wrong? 21:19:13 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:19:19 every 21:19:44 nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:47 in fact it's a dependency, cl-interpol, that wants CLOS 21:20:01 so CCL does not implement CLOS at all? 21:20:07 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:20:19 will you stop jumping to wild conclusions? 21:20:36 cl-interpol doesn't want a package named "CLOS" 21:20:38 I'm asking a n00b question (series) 21:21:04 Read error between positions 184 and 207 in /Users/dim/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/cl-unicode-0.1.2/methods.lisp. 21:21:19 ok I didn't read carefully, this file is strange looking 21:21:35 ;;; This file was auto-generated by the BUILD-CL-UNICODE system 21:22:05 dim: I don't know what you are doing, but I just loaded it in CCL 1.7 without any errors. I don't even use CCL. 21:22:09 it's doing things like (|CLOS|::|DEFMETHOD| |CL-UNICODE|::|SCRIPT| 21:22:26 dim: On Windows, if that makes a difference. 21:22:35 maybe I did compile the bloody thing with another lisp implementation 21:22:38 maydid you use another implementation before that? 21:22:42 yeah 21:22:58 how can I clean that up? is it related to "fasl" "cache" I read about? 21:23:24 (rtfm links are welcome) 21:23:56 rm /Users/dim/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/cl-unicode-0.1.2/methods.lisp 21:24:26 hey, that's simple enough 21:24:29 dim: Just tested in an experimental SBCL on Windows and LW 6.1. Works flawlessly. 21:24:35 tomekd789 [tomekd789@hbm66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:24:55 Hats off to Quicklisp and Xach. 21:25:13 i blame clisp 21:25:14 now the file has (DEFMETHOD SCRIPT rather than (|CLOS|::|DEFMETHOD| etc 21:25:24 I did try clisp among others, yes 21:25:37 hi all 21:25:43 a quick newbie question 21:26:03 -!- two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:26:07 It's simple, sorry 21:26:18 ask the question already! 21:26:25 how can I skip first 256 bytes of a binary file? 21:26:38 (dotimes (x 256) (read-byte *infile* nil)) 21:26:41 (file-position 256) 21:26:47 (file-position stream 256) 21:26:49 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 21:26:56 great, thanks! 21:27:34 yes, i was right in blaming clisp 21:30:53 https://github.com/edicl/cl-unicode/issues/2 21:32:57 stassats, (file-position *infile* 256) returns Error: `NIL' is not of the expected type `STREAM' 21:32:57 ... 21:33:06 I'm really a newbie 21:33:16 how can I set & forget? :( 21:33:30 don't pass NIL to file-position 21:33:31 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 21:33:40 Bike [~Glossina@75-175-22-210.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:50 ? 21:34:03 *infile* is a valid file handle, 256 is not NIL 21:34:47 are you sure? 21:35:06 and are you sure that the error is in the call to file-position? 21:35:07 well, about *infile*? 21:35:40 (defparameter *infile* 21:35:41 (open 21:35:41 "C:\\allegro-projects\\Neuro\\noise1.wmv" 21:35:41 :if-does-not-exist nil 21:35:41 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))) 21:35:41 *INFILE* 21:35:56 looks like it works 21:36:13 (when *infile* 21:36:14 (loop for single-byte = (read-byte *infile* nil) 21:36:14 while single-byte do (write-byte single-byte *outfile*)) 21:36:17 - this works, too 21:36:21 yo shouldn't use OPEN 21:36:33 use with-open-file 21:36:45 I'll try 21:36:54 but how can I do it in such case? 21:37:14 I mean, having the *infile* opened, skip 256 bytes, and do the loop? 21:37:56 Ops, sorry, I know the answer already 21:37:58 (with-open-file (stream "C:\\file" ...) (file-position stream 256) (loop ..)) 21:38:16 stassats, thanks indeed 21:38:39 The former version works, too 21:38:46 hm, clisp goes crazy with *print-escape* T 21:38:54 (let ((*print-readably* t)) (print 'list)) => |COMMON-LISP|::|LIST| 21:38:55 just the file extension was not wmv, but wma... Shame on me :( 21:39:17 well, who cares about clisp anyway 21:41:30 stassats, so, fyi: the previous approach also works fine, just the file should exist before someone tries to read it ;) 21:42:02 or you could omit ":if-does-not-exist nil" and it will signal a nice error 21:42:18 and that approach is bad, use with-open-file, it's even easier to use 21:42:21 that's right 21:44:41 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:45:08 stassats, I will 21:45:15 Just one another lame question: 21:45:18 (when *infile* 21:45:18 (loop for single-byte = (read-byte *infile* nil) 21:45:18 while single-byte do (write-byte single-byte *outfile*)) 21:45:21 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-217-143.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:22 DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:31 works fine, but I'd like to copy every *second* byte 21:45:48 then just skip it 21:45:49 how can I do it simply? 21:46:01 well... a hint pls 21:46:11 just read and don't write it 21:46:44 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:47:04 well... the loop does not give any obvious way of doing it 21:47:28 -!- Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.2.40] has quit [] 21:47:34 while ... do - what? 21:47:48 you'll have to figure it out 21:47:57 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 21:48:01 Radium_ [~carbon@117.203.2.40] has joined #lisp 21:48:55 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m83-185-142-102.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:49:06 that's what I thought... thanks 21:52:10 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 21:52:41 meantobennice [~peter@108-243-244-153.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:06 ((ihate) mitt) 21:54:17 ((timer1) cancel) inviteall #hhuttub 21:54:54 H4ns: just did a pull-request for cl-unicode to fix the above issue 21:55:35 -!- ainm [~ainm@68.Red-83-36-191.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:00:12 ainm [~ainm@68.Red-83-36-191.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:14 Well clisp output is readable in whatever environment. CL:LIST wouldn't be readable if *read-base* was set to 25. 22:00:36 But granted, I pushed it beyond what's specified in CLHS. 22:00:40 francogrex [~user@109.130.82.27] has joined #lisp 22:01:17 We should add a *print-really-readably* for this. 22:03:11 stassats, used progn. :) 22:03:23 progn? why? 22:03:38 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:03:45 did you know that DO has an implicit progn? 22:04:09 I'm a newbie. Really 22:04:22 single-byte = (progn (read-byte *infile* nil) (read-byte *infile* nil)) 22:04:29 ugly but works 22:05:36 ahh, you're here as well :D 22:05:47 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@50.Red-88-11-24.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 22:09:38 daniel__ [~daniel@p5B326A43.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:03 p_l, yep, looking everywhere :) 22:10:47 -!- nepnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:10:49 tomekd789: Y U NO on #lisp-pl? 22:11:03 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-159-99.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:14 since I had the choice... ;) 22:11:14 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.108.38] has joined #lisp 22:11:33 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5B3262AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:11:42 nepnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:11:58 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.82.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:12:01 p_l, there's lot more english-speaking users, than PL 22:12:21 DO has an implicity TAGBODY! Even better than PROGN. 22:12:31 -!- optikalmouse [~user@76.9.199.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:12:36 how does one call a cffi C function that goes something like: void* getMeSomething( int* returnedSize ) 22:12:37 ? 22:12:52 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@173-228-88-191.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:57 the parameter (not the return) is the part I'm having trouble with. 22:13:54 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-120-151.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:13:58 (get-me-something (cffi:foreign-alloc :int)) 22:14:32 (obviously) 22:14:39 let me try, but that seems wrong to me. =) 22:14:43 I'll tell you after I try. 22:14:56 pjb, thanks, I will investigate 22:15:01 -!- tomekd789 [tomekd789@hbm66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Wychodzi] 22:15:16 of course you wouldn't use it verbatim 22:15:39 I understand that. 22:16:04 but how is that different from calling getMeSomething( foo ) where foo is some dynamically allocated value 22:16:06 ? 22:16:08 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 22:16:20 does cffi:doreign-alloc return a pointer to what it allocated? 22:16:28 or does it return what it allocated? 22:16:33 ah. I'm an idiot 22:16:36 what else could it return? 22:16:48 unicorns =) 22:16:50 I'm just wrong. thanks. 22:17:03 danishman [~kvirc@62.243.156.218] has joined #lisp 22:17:31 but you wouldn't use foreign-alloc directly, (cffi:with-foreign-object (returned-size :int) (get-me-something returned-size)) 22:18:14 roger roger. 22:18:37 timack [~timack@hlfx58-2a-202.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 22:19:00 well, (cffi:with-foreign-object (returned-size :int) (values (get-me-something returned-size) (cffi:mem-ref returned-size :int))) if you want a complete solution 22:19:37 -!- danishman [~kvirc@62.243.156.218] has quit [Client Quit] 22:23:41 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.86.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:24:39 adu [~ajr@64.134.42.181] has joined #lisp 22:26:29 -!- adu [~ajr@64.134.42.181] has quit [Client Quit] 22:28:18 I am totally tripping on this project. on so many aspects at the same time. 22:28:20 -!- meantobennice [~peter@108-243-244-153.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:28:21 mainly, the REPL though 22:30:12 tripping as in under the influence of? 22:31:37 tripping as in totally having a great time with my hair in the wind kinda thing 22:32:24 maybe it's just because I got some free time for the first time in a while to do a pet project. but I do have the impression the REPL is making me happy more than a stupid gdb prompt would 22:32:32 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:34 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:32:50 also, I do find that the objc is of a particularly awesome elegance. 22:33:34 like not having multiple return values? 22:33:39 -!- andresgsaravia [~andres@wabis.mda.cinvestav.mx] has quit [Quit: andresgsaravia] 22:33:49 that's what...eh 22:34:23 objc? nah, like not being like C++ 22:34:29 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:34:31 -!- BeWhy [~chatzilla@c-76-124-138-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:34:38 that's not a very high bar 22:34:56 I had in the past tried, foolishly, to get a C++ environment up and running in a weird situation. 22:35:21 the hooks and global variables are like a legion of orks... 22:35:57 simply loading the objective c library, oth, is all you need. 22:36:05 also, it's very self contained. 22:36:34 it's just well designed. you don't have these weird things you have to keep track of because someone forgot some small bit... 22:37:04 anyhoo. A runtime that is working the moment I call load-foreign-library makes me happy, that's all. 22:37:25 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-90-138.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:47 it's not been a day and I can already list methods, get classes, instantiate objects... 22:37:52 one day. 22:38:10 I shall stop gushing, now. and return to my little party =) 22:38:19 What are you working on with Obj C? 22:38:37 -!- Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.108.38] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:38:44 docAvid: just doing a bridge. essentially doing what cl-objc once set out to do and then gave up 22:39:06 Shaftoe: Cool :) 22:39:11 Shaftoe: On CFFI? 22:39:15 Shaftoe: you know you have to do two bridges, one to gcc objc, and one to apple objc? 22:39:32 pjb: They're that different? 22:39:55 Not the fundamental features, but there are some divergences IIRC. 22:39:57 docAvid: I should point out the difference with ccl is that I'm intent on a loadable runtime package. not something that gets built into your implementation 22:40:02 sellout: yeah, on cffi 22:40:07 pjb: mainly in objc 2.0 22:40:12 pjb: I'm not sure I comprehend. 22:40:27 it's a dylib. with c functions. assembly code. I call it, it gives me answers. 22:40:28 in ccl, you just do (require 'objc-support), so it's a "loadable runtime package". 22:40:30 There are two different implemtnations of the runtime. 22:40:35 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-29-116.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 22:40:36 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-29-116.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 22:40:49 On by Apple for MacOSX, and one by gcc, which is used eg. in GNUstep. 22:40:54 oh, I see. 22:41:02 no, I'm just aiming for MacOSX for now. 22:41:14 pet project, not save the world project. 22:41:29 Try to include the gcc objc runtime, sothat we can write lisp apps targetting MacOSX and GNUstep/{linux,mswindows}. 22:41:43 if they're not radically different, it won't be an issue. 22:41:53 With alittle more work, you could be the hero that provides a nice universal Lisp GUI! :-) 22:42:05 They have the same roots. 22:42:13 gnustep is a nice gui? 22:42:16 pjb: sush... I do no such thing. I do want proper GUI though 22:42:23 I don't think the runtimes have diverged that much, but Cocoa and OpenStep have, haven't they? 22:42:42 stassats: I like the look of NeXTSTEP indeed, but yes, GNUstep is OpenStep, just like Cocoa. 22:42:50 (modulo their respective extensions). 22:42:51 Or, Cocoa and GNUstep. 22:42:55 I know for a fact that the current Cocoa, even from versions like 10.4 is so different as to be pretty much unusuable 22:43:08 sellout: there are extensions yes. 22:43:18 But GNUstep implements some of them. 22:43:20 but cocoa  the runtime. 22:43:28 Indeed. 22:43:48 so the runtime is the main issue, and for that I'm sticking to objc 2.0, which seems to be splendidly documented on the osx site. 22:43:55 Shaftoe: Right  I'm just saying that even if you support both, making portable applications is still a big hurdle for others (in response to pjb). 22:43:57 it's even open source (modulo some licenses). 22:44:28 selllout: indeed. 22:44:51 sellout: well, if you want portability you always must limit yourself to some subset. Perhaps you won't have flying windows or whatever they have on MacOSX, but to put up a menu and a window with some custom view and some buttons it'll be the same on both plateforms. 22:45:06 I do hope that gnustep moves in step with the newer versions of cocoa, although I'm not abreast as tot he policies etc. 22:45:23 version after version of cocoa came with enhancements I absolutely approved of. 22:45:34 -!- huangjs [~user@200.54.109.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:45:45 Shaftoe: there's some work done in CCL to support multiplatform ObjC GUI 22:45:58 to be exact, them and Cocotron 22:46:28 pjb: the main differences are actually more on the controler side (at least, the difference I personally appreciated). so even if the UI is bland, there's some really useful stuff that doesn't exist prior to 10.5 22:46:49 p_l: one day, I'll look at that. do you know what it is, roughly speaking? 22:47:02 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:47:12 Well sure. But again, that depends on the needs of the application. 22:47:29 indeed. 22:47:35 how about arbitrary needs? 22:47:41 But it's true that Apple makes changes on the API, that's a disagreable moving target. 22:48:28 pjb: I dislike Apple in the big picture, but I've been fond of their work on cocoa. They did a Good Thing. But, I do fear wreckless movements... 22:48:41 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B13A.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 22:48:49 as you said, a moving target. It's like a whale that accidentally kills you because it flapped its tail. To it, it was just moving along. 22:49:10 reminds me a lot of microsoft about 15 years ago. 22:49:26 right around the time when COM because "old news"... 22:49:28 That's why I'm on Linux with free software. 22:49:50 Shaftoe: You feel Microsoft is different today? 22:49:58 different than? 22:50:07 not like Linux doesn't jump left and right 22:50:13 Either Microsoft 15 years ago or Apple today :) your choice 22:50:27 pjb: I deploy stuff on linux for work, too. But I still haven't found something that's as nice to the eyes as OS X ui. I feel cursed for that, mind you. 22:50:57 docAvid: I feel microsoft finally learned to chill the fuck out, and have entered the IBM style grand father stage... just sits around and looks at the kids playing. 22:51:06 Shaftoe: it's based on Cocotron, which is ObjC runtime for windows, and it has some extras to run code written for OSX runtime on GNUstep 22:51:25 -!- ainm [~ainm@68.Red-83-36-191.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:51:32 Again, that depends on the application, but IMO, the most refined look is that of NeXTstep. 22:51:33 ainm [~ainm@67.Red-79-154-72.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:51 from 15 years ago, it definitely has changed. Back then, they wanted to rule everything with .net. I remember the fear and loathing that .net inspired in my daily life. It was everything to everyone. 22:52:07 google image for nextstep and see. 22:52:12 pjb: what distro can I use that has NeXTstep ? 22:52:20 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:52:22 (rather, which is the most painless) 22:52:55 NeXTSTEP has been bought by Apple and morphed into Rhapsody first, and MacOSX then. 22:53:11 I see. It hasn't changed much since it got made, has it. 22:53:23 I remember having played around with Rhapsody in 98... 22:53:30 You may find some NeXTcomputer or some NeXTSTEP 4.2 or 3.3 CDs on ebay. You can run NeXTSTEP 3.3 or 4.2 in an emulator. 22:53:38 Rhapsody was much better than MacOSX. 22:53:43 honestly, I have no big preference. my guiding force is lazieness. 22:53:45 emit [~emit@unaffiliated/emit] has joined #lisp 22:53:49 But it was too alien for Apple customers. 22:53:59 Shaftoe: so on Linux, it's GNUstep. 22:54:21 gentoo distributes it, but there was a bug last time I tried to install it. Perhaps it's corrected now. 22:54:26 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:54:38 Debian has GNUstep 22:56:26 but back to the point, my goal with this cl-obj thing is to make the runtime completely accessible to the programmer, just like the ojbective c runtime is accessible to C 22:56:43 and then to reuse/make a bunch of reader macros that'll just parse/read m files. 22:56:47 then you can do whatever you want. 22:56:55 -!- ainm [~ainm@67.Red-79-154-72.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc))] 22:57:04 can it make me a pony? 22:57:23 ideally, I'd like to have some sort of initialization script that turns sbcl into the equivalent of gcc, so that I replace the call to gcc with a call to sbcl in my XCode target config 22:57:38 stassats: for you, I will make it happen =) 22:57:47 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:57:52 then i'm content 22:58:18 Shaftoe: indeed, perfect to be used with my Objective-CL reader macros. 22:58:25 Stassats: Poof, your a pony. 22:59:23 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:25 pjb: yeah. So really, the thing is a lisp compiler for m files more than anything else. so that whatever you build is an image with a repl and away you go. 22:59:35 m7w_ [~chatzilla@46.28.98.171] has joined #lisp 22:59:41 pjb: anything more is insanity. 22:59:56 and I am not insane. 23:00:14 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.171] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:00:19 _main_ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:28 -!- m7w_ is now known as m7w 23:00:39 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-151-210.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:46 -!- FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:00:48 how do you know? 23:01:02 razieliyo [~user@unaffiliated/razieliyo] has joined #lisp 23:01:07 hi 23:01:09 good question. Maybe minion would know? 23:01:14 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:01:19 minion: am I insane? 23:01:20 minion: is Shaftoe insane? 23:01:20 Usually who says he's not insane is. 23:01:20 what would it mean if you were insane 23:01:21 maybe 23:01:29 Shaftoe: minion is unsure 23:01:30 lol 23:01:33 if you wanted to implement a (for example) binary tree in lisp, would you use OOP or what? 23:01:47 razieliyo: (cons left right) 23:01:57 razieliyo: it depends 23:02:01 (cons (cons 1 2) (cons 3 4)) = balanced binary tree. 23:02:19 nice 23:02:27 so you would just make a few functions to manage them 23:02:42 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:02:45 -!- _main_ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:02:53 i would've used structures for binary trees 23:03:00 Well (defalias left car) (defalias right cdr) (defalias emptyp null) 23:03:09 btw, pjb, how complete are your objective-cl reader macros? 23:03:14 stassats: yes, if you need to label your nodes. 23:03:16 stassats: that's what I was thinking about 23:03:20 could they read an m file? is that even possible, or would yacc be required? 23:03:26 Shaftoe: quite complete. 23:03:28 FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:30 nice. 23:03:30 _main_ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:32 but, how? OOP? what kind of structure can I make in lisp for that purpose? 23:03:34 link_ [~irchon@219.117.195.167.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 23:03:55 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-159-99.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:04:12 -!- link_ [~irchon@219.117.195.167.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:04:21 clintm_ [~cmoore@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:30 razieliyo: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/b8d9376744b4ebb1 23:04:38 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:04:42 razieliyo: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/0c66e597e08be90d 23:04:45 johs_ [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 23:04:55 razieliyo: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/40efa5254dbfac4f 23:05:04 pjb: thanks! 23:05:18 that's enough to start with 23:05:34 fellas, I'm ready to get up and do my thing... it's been a pleasure chattin... I shall be back lata 23:05:44 nuba_ [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 23:05:44 -!- __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:05:51 galdor_ [galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:53 can I count it off? 23:06:01 minion: count it off... 23:06:01 =) 23:06:02 what is ``it''? 23:06:04 -!- mel0on [1000@213.80.108.13] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:12 jpanest_ [~jpanest@108-166-73-199.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:27 minion's smart. 23:07:04 frankaa112 [~frankmax_@dynamic.casap2-79-25-137-41.wanamaroc.com] has joined #lisp 23:07:09 -!- _main_ is now known as __main__ 23:07:55 Shaftoe: actually you have the choice between two implementations: http://groups.google.com/group/objective-cl-announce/browse_frm/thread/97e3f5af24c39045/891be1c9e0f13a66?hl=en&q=objective-cl#891be1c9e0f13a66 and http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/245342429c61800/174852d5fbdc11ac?hl=en&q=objective-cl#174852d5fbdc11ac 23:08:15 ivan\_ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 23:08:34 -!- pspace [~andrew@d118-75-188-8.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:08:44 Jordan_U_ [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has joined #lisp 23:09:27 *maxm--* is weirded out how there are technologies that exist for years, that no one wants to touch with a 10-feet pole 23:09:35 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 23:09:36 Dodek_ [am291698@duch.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 23:09:36 phadthai_ [mmondor@206.248.143.74] has joined #lisp 23:09:45 but as soon as Apple adopts them, they become instantly cool, and the next big thing 23:09:54 :-) 23:09:59 above is re: gnustep/openstep cocoa 23:10:11 RenJuan [~Ren@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:10:14 someone should pitch CL to apple 23:10:23 It's not homo sapiens sapiens, it's homo ovis aries. 23:10:25 bzzbzz_ [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:10:28 so that they make it unusable? no thanks 23:10:45 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:10:45 -!- clintm [~cmoore@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:11:22 stassats`: I thought you were a machead? 23:11:45 never was 23:12:33 maybe when i lose all my marbles 23:12:34 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:12:38 kind of wrong deduction from seeing you patch darwin related stuff in commonqt 23:12:47 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-58.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 23:13:00 _stink__ [~stink@li61-113.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:13:03 i just merged a pull request 23:13:07 ah 23:14:11 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:14:14 stassats: "colinc 0 is not a positive integer." seems simple and clear... 23:14:19 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 23:14:42 -!- flipout [~user@75-175-121-203.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:14:45 0th colinc? 23:15:05 Or "colinc: 0 is not a positive integer." 23:15:34 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-90-138.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:15:42 "colinc=0 is not a positive integer." 23:16:00 but it's too late! i already committed it, taking inspiration from check-type 23:16:00 lebro [~monx@ool-18bc4a28.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:35 It's not the cavalry if it's not too late! 23:16:49 maxm--: it's not about apple adopting it. It's about what my desktop runs. 23:16:49 -!- Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:16:50 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:16:50 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:16:50 -!- johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:16:50 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:16:50 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:16:50 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:16:50 -!- jpanest [~jpanest@108-166-73-199.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:16:50 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:16:51 -!- wyan [~wyan@fnords.info] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:16:51 -!- _stink_ [~stink@li61-113.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:16:51 -!- Dodek [am291698@duch.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:16:51 -!- cmbntr [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:16:51 -!- galdor [galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:16:51 -!- ivan\_ is now known as ivan\ 23:17:15 -!- ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:44 and also, to an extent, the fact that objc is easier to bridge than most other stuff I've ever touched. 23:18:17 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 23:18:21 ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:34 What about the ObjC exceptions? 23:18:57 pjb: now *that* is the most hairy bit that I haven't even begun to consider. But I'm thinking "how bad could it be?" ;) 23:19:20 -!- paul0 [~user@177.41.242.43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:19:25 pjb: thing is, if simple variable assignment had been a headache, then I would have said "f this shit, I haven't even gotten to exceptions yet". 23:19:38 -!- machine2 [~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:19:42 Shaftoe: not too bad. You have to wrap a NS_DURING around each FFI out calls, and an handler-case around each FFI in call. 23:20:03 -!- FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:20:16 pjb: hah. I see what you did there: you were just testing my level of insanity. 23:20:26 pjb: that is indeed, not too bad. 23:20:28 machine2 [~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:32 naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-211-107.w109-208.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:24:02 btw, what class of thing is this "NS_During" you speak of? 23:24:04 Shaftoe: well, NS_DURING is a macro. But it probably calls something in the run-time. 23:24:15 cmbntr [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has joined #lisp 23:24:17 Oops, I thought I had joined #lisp. 23:24:24 Hexstream: FFI 23:24:43 FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:45 -!- phadthai_ is now known as phadthai 23:24:48 pjb: indeed. it's not immediately clear to me where the magic happens. 23:25:09 it's most definitely not a class or object. 23:25:37 yeah, like I said, I'll burn that bridge when I get to it =) 23:25:51 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-158-133.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:05 But at least, it's saner than C++ exceptions :-) 23:26:10 -!- frankaa112 [~frankmax_@dynamic.casap2-79-25-137-41.wanamaroc.com] has quit [] 23:26:10 Seems to me like this FFI excuse could dangerously expand the scope of "acceptable" discussions. But I'll wait and see if someone else steps in. 23:27:11 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-151-210.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:29:37 Hexstream: well, it's about writing cl-objc 23:29:49 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:31 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:31:29 -!- chturne [~chturne@host86-136-158-113.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:32:33 pjb: you can say that again. C++ exceptions are somethign that came out of the film event horizon. 23:33:16 hexstream: we'll stop talking about it, but it's not as if we're drowning out other conversations. 23:34:23 Shaftoe: exactly :-) 23:34:40 Well, you're drowing out silence. ;P I must say that kind of thing is annoying for compulsive log readers. ;P 23:34:44 "drowning other conversations" never worked as an argument 23:35:19 Shaftoe: come again when the american are sleeping :-) 23:35:30 Shaftoe: Amen to C++ exceptions... though technically I think I should have been able to just write the bloody assembly for those 23:36:44 handling *templates* is comparatively easy 23:37:22 though probably would require some extra groveling 23:37:23 I'm American and I was enjoying your conversation 23:38:07 hello, my name is Matt and I'm a Canadian 23:38:08 You're a good one :-) 23:38:08 heh 23:39:35 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:39:56 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-159-31.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:14 -!- Jordan_U_ [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:41:06 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-155-235.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:39 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-158-133.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:44:11 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:44:12 Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has joined #lisp 23:44:45 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-159-31.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:51:28 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-148-167-55.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:53:23 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.137.11] has quit [Quit: rme] 23:54:08 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:27 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:56:07 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 23:56:48 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@173-228-88-191.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 23:58:34 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-116-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]