00:01:44 -!- kanru`` [~user@61-228-148-40.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:04:04 -!- naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-247-132.w90-4.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:06:32 n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@178.46.11.128] has joined #lisp 00:08:14 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.47.209.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:10:23 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:18:16 MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has joined #lisp 00:19:59 nelson- [~user@a89-152-184-27.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 00:20:11 pachon [u6073@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rupicgczbsicapyd] has joined #lisp 00:20:15 -!- pachon [u6073@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rupicgczbsicapyd] has left #lisp 00:21:18 -!- nelson- [~user@a89-152-184-27.cpe.netcabo.pt] has left #lisp 00:22:19 -!- n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@178.46.11.128] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 00:23:44 sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 00:24:57 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:28:16 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BC39.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:31:30 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:28 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has quit [Quit: #WeeChat #Mises #emacs] 00:36:17 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:38:07 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:38:11 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:39:25 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:12 clintm [~clintm@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:03 -!- venk [~user@mail.protocomtech.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:57:16 -!- ainm [~ainm@211.Red-79-159-6.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc))] 00:59:07 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 00:59:56 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Client Quit] 01:00:21 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:02:53 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:06:24 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.238.43.70] has joined #lisp 01:06:36 antgreen [~user@CPE0021910f07ac-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:06:55 -!- c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.238.56.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:07:32 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:08:28 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:38 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-30-31.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:20:29 vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtech.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:20:39 flipout [~user@75-175-122-6.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:21 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:21:48 adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:48 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:50 you are all going to yell at me for asking this basic question: how, using common lisp, do i load a library (a folder of files that declare lisp functionjs)_ 01:24:24 flipout: Create an ASDF definition file and use Quicklisp. 01:24:26 there is no answer to this on the internet, because the trolls have decided to hide this information. which trolls 01:25:09 flipout: I'm pretty sure there is an answer. Without looking, I bet you could find it on CLiki. 01:25:12 ok..FirstStepsWithAsdfAndAsdfInstall tks 01:25:21 tks ThomasH 01:25:29 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:27:20 flipout do you have quicklisp? 01:27:25 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@200.48.22.49] has joined #lisp 01:29:08 (ql:quickload :quickproject) (quickproject:make-project ..) will make .asd, package etc files for you, to give you an idea how lisp files are usually organized 01:32:22 -!- clintm [~clintm@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: clintm] 01:32:48 -!- pnathan1 [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:34:18 adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:46 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 01:37:12 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:38:06 Quickproject is great. 01:50:34 if you're interested in lisp employment opportunities (CO, USA, no telecommute), please PM me 01:52:17 retupmoca [~retupmoca@adsl-99-119-128-139.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:06 kornshell [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has joined #lisp 02:04:30 tks kennyd 02:05:01 I am trying to include screamer in my OpenMusic environme 02:06:47 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA22324.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:07:17 ebobby [~fms@50-0-172-141.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:03 kanru`` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:40 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:12:47 -!- davlaps [~davlaps@pool-108-49-122-166.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 02:13:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 02:13:34 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-107-3-142-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:04 -!- flipout [~user@75-175-122-6.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:14:45 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@37.99.83.104] has joined #lisp 02:14:45 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:16:49 -!- kornshell [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:21:41 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.238.43.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:21:48 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.149.83] has joined #lisp 02:24:29 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 02:27:51 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:32:16 -!- CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:32:27 -!- lebro [~monx@ool-18bc4a28.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:34:35 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 02:34:56 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:40:44 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:41:25 adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:41 wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:42:17 -!- wildnux_ [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:44:45 billitch [~billitch@pool-96-246-58-59.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:46 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:45:47 Is there a handy place on the internet that describes techniques for optimizing for space taken up by various structures? 02:46:17 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 02:48:00 herbieB: I dunno, but I would imagine it would involve minimizing indirection 02:49:52 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-107-3-142-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 02:49:56 herbieB: that's pretty language independent. 02:50:32 In the worst case, you can hack something up with the FFI, like some people at ITA. 02:50:44 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:51:40 Yeah, I was hoping not to go that route. What I'm looking for is just some simple steps to analyze the space taken up by various parts of my giant corpus of data with the goal of minimizing waste. 02:51:49 Radium [~carbon@117.203.8.93] has joined #lisp 02:52:02 Other than blow a slot away, run (room) 02:52:07 Rinse repeat 02:52:22 the first step it to write your requirements explicitly 02:52:41 The second is to think, sometimes hard, sometimes not, ideally with partners. 02:53:12 i do like thinking with partners 02:53:14 if you know what i mean 02:54:10 pkhuong: I think I'm missing something, there. Are you just being glib? 02:54:10 Blackboard all the way. Whiteboards don't have the right drag, and permanent marker mishaps are much too frequent. 02:55:30 Kron [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has joined #lisp 02:56:09 herbieB: 32-bit Lisp architectures can take half the memory footprint of 64-bit ones, if you're not heavy on strings & bytes. That might get you somewhere as a very easy step 02:56:33 herbieB: no. There's really next to nothing that's CL specific. Avoid heap-allocated immediates, use specialised arrays if you can, but that's pretty much it; in both cases, the design you'd find after step 2 would lead you to ask those questions. 02:56:46 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:56:46 are you talking about reducing the footprint of each individual structure instance by clever bit tricks, or about algorithmic analysis to reduce the number of structures needed? 02:57:49 I'm talking about ensuring with confidence that the way I've organized my data in memory takes up the least space in order to hold tens of millions of records. 02:58:19 And to know what I should give up where in order to get more space. For instance, right now each record is taking 600 bytes, or so. I want to be able to understand why, so I can tweak. 02:58:22 Why are you storing your data in memory? 02:58:32 herbieB: what are your records like? 02:58:37 pkhuong, on the wall of yours truly, next to bed: http://imgur.com/w8IxJ.jpg 02:58:41 Just a struct of some 50 elements. 02:59:05 Zhivago: It's just for a prototype for my boss for some processing we'll be doing later this eyar 02:59:17 Well, memory doesn't scale well, so ... 02:59:26 herbieB: what are the struct's slots like? 02:59:26 Zhivago: Would rather just get it all handled in memory to make it easier/faster while prototyping until we go full scale with a real solution 02:59:34 herbieB: which lisp implementation, what CPU arch? 02:59:41 Then why are you worried about size? :) 03:00:01 Just pick a subset for the half-arsed prototype. 03:00:17 Zhivago: It's for financial stuff, and he'd really like to have a full month of data for the prototype 03:00:43 Don't worry, I've gone back and forth about this :P The reqs are what the reqs are 03:00:52 Is it possible to redefine a defstruct? 03:00:59 didi: at your risks and preils. 03:01:02 perils as well. 03:01:09 Anyway, it's sbcl, x86 64 bit. The slots are normally empty, but sometimes have keywords, sometimes ints, sometimes strings (max lenght of 10 or so) 03:01:23 do you flyweight your strings? 03:01:41 teggi [~teggi@113.172.42.8] has joined #lisp 03:01:45 herbieB: sorry, if I had more useful information, I might be able to help you. 03:01:59 pkhuong: If I've just defined one and spotted an error, how can I proceed? 03:02:03 Quadrescence: you sleep in chalk dust? 03:02:45 As it is, I'll go with the generic "struct of arrays"; arraylet-backed vectors if you want to append values. 03:02:46 Ralith, yes 03:02:48 :{ 03:02:49 pkhuong: Right. I don't want someone to look at my data structure and tell me how to improve it. I just need some techniques for analysing the data overall to udnerstand what problem areas need to be played with. I basically want to be able to profile my memory within the data. 03:03:21 Phoodus: No, not yet. That's the kind of optimization I don't want to code until I can know if it's worth attempting. 03:03:51 herbieB: em, doing (room) or whatever can tell you how much space strings are taking up 03:04:02 but on a test set, you should easily be able to analyze the amount of redundancy in your string storage 03:04:14 and it's pretty darn easy to code; not some grand challenge 03:04:56 in sbcl, there are heap walkers and such in the sb-vm package 03:05:20 Hm, ok 03:05:29 herbieB: I don't know that there are any techniques. In SBCL, you can peek at src/compiler/generic/objdef.lisp to get an idea of how things are represented. Basically, nearly everything is a sequence of words (one per slot), with an additional header word (except for CONSes). Fixnums, single floats and characters are tagged, everything else if heap-allocated. Specialised vectors look like C, with a header and a size field. Structs have a header word, 03:05:37 though it's quite easy to explode out into all directions; from a struct instance, there's its definition type, which has symbols, which has a package, which points all over the universe, etc 03:06:50 Hm, would there be an easy way to do something like (apply #'+ (mapcar #'sizeof (mapcar #'get-slot-from-o *data*))) ? 03:06:52 -!- billitch [~billitch@pool-96-246-58-59.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:07:32 ah, sb-introspect:map-root is the object walker, not in sb-vm 03:07:45 herbieB: no. 03:08:47 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.8.93] has quit [] 03:08:55 If you want the size of the structure object itself, it's easy, though. Take the number of slots (count twice for complex double float slots), add 2, round up to an even number. That's the number of words it uses. 03:09:09 (or disassemble its constructor, and see how much mem it allocates) 03:09:40 I'm pretty sure the structure itself isn't going to end up being the problem. Or rather, I would be surprised if it were. 03:10:06 But, really: "it takes one word per slot, plus some small overhead"? That's true in almost any (sane) language. 03:10:11 symbols are flyweighted, integers will very very likely be immediates on a 64-bit platforms, so the only thing that'll be externally allocated would be the strings 03:10:46 what do you mean "flyweighted"? 03:10:50 Phoodus: Yeah. And I might get a giant gain out of doing that. It's a place to start 03:11:11 and if they come in a form that isn't know to be base-char, then they might be >1 byte per character 03:11:13 Phoodus, oh, like the ""design pattern"" 03:11:17 Phoodus: interned? That's not flyweights, at least not what it was 10 years ago. 03:11:38 yeah, I tend to over-use that term 03:11:39 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:12:01 herbieB: one way is to NOT store the data in memory. If you can compute it, then don't store it. Another, in particular for big data (strings, arrays, images, etc) is to compress it. 03:12:45 if you can replace your strings with integers, and ignore the actual character values besides input & reporting, then you can dodge strings altogether 03:13:04 struct of arrays. 03:13:06 though that's a bit more work than just interning them 03:13:27 pjb: Certainly. There's a lot of techniques that are language agnostic, and I'll be seeing if any are slam dunks. Just wanted to make sure there was no obvious "duh, just do X and CL takes care of it" 03:13:38 For instance, if you could tell CL to just flyweight the strings for you 03:13:42 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:30 herbieB: eg. once I implemented a quad-tree geographic index, by removing all the pointers. The tree structure was implicit from the offsets in the vector. Since the nodes were just ints, it was quite compact. 03:14:42 ILTWYS"J". Well, CL makes reuse of components the default, unlike C++. 03:15:18 on a 64-bit platform, sometimes even the ascii encoding of an integer is smaller than the 8-byte register size, so compressing an entire record into some variable-length encoding would likely work as well 03:15:22 herbieB: in the case of lisp, that means you would allocate a big array of (unsigned-int 32) and encode/store your data in there with a minimal amount of pointers. 03:16:00 pjb: Right, right. Probably a bit outside of the scope of a prototype :) 03:16:04 herbieB: as for the 64->32, you can go further and ->16 or even ->8; ie. using byte-code makes the code shorter than using 32-bit words. Using 8-bit offsets will make your data shorter than 64-bit pointers. 03:16:24 herbieB: but it all depends on your data and the algorithm you want to use to access it. 03:16:28 Right 03:16:38 (I have no idea what ILTWYSJ means) 03:16:57 that, or you could use smaller integers. And since that's hard to actually get in CL (well, actually... ;), that's why I'm suggesting structs of (specialised) arrays for the third time. 03:17:06 Though this came up: http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=25783 03:17:17 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 03:17:23 I like the way you say "just". 03:17:55 I Love The Way You Say Just. 03:17:58 Ha 03:18:02 Ok 03:18:10 I Love To Watch You Say "Just"? 03:19:09 Anyway, specialized structs is a ways off, and heck, maybe simply telling the boss man "yeah, too much work, no quick way to do this, how about two weeks of data?" is godo enough for me :) 03:19:12 but yeah, reduce your strings to references to a shared pool, if that doesn't help then convert everything to ints and squeeze them as hard as possible 03:19:13 Thanks :) 03:19:25 sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 03:19:59 flipout [~user@75-175-122-6.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:12 hello. is there a function that will combine two functions into one? (combine 'foo 'bar) => (lambda (x) (foo x) (bar x)) 03:20:42 herbieB: also, you can go the ITA way, use mmap and FFI to store the data in raw memory (which is a variant of the big array method I mentionned). 03:20:45 there was something in alexandria IIRC 03:20:55 sezo: not in this way. 03:20:56 sezo: the verb you're looking for is compose. 03:21:28 herbieB: intern, use simple-base-strings if you can, consider using encoded utf-8 in octet vectors otherwise. 03:21:28 sezo: the stuff you'll find in libraries will be related to currying, not composition 03:21:34 tiglog [~topeak@123.114.127.89] has joined #lisp 03:22:21 sezo (defun combine (&rest funs) (lambda (x) (let ((results '())) (dolist (fun funs (values-list results)) (setf results (multiple-value-list (funcall fun) x)))))) 03:22:22 sezo: but I don't think the pattern of calling two functions on the same input happens often enough in CL to have made it in alexandria. 03:22:53 thanks. alexandria:compose does something different. so is there another name to a function like this? 03:23:36 pjb nice touch about returning all the results as values 03:23:47 sezo: I just implemented you example. 03:24:19 i didn't return values 03:24:31 Sure, implicitely all the values of bar. 03:25:00 You should have written (lambda (x) (foo x) (bar x) (values)) if you didn't want them. 03:25:01 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-36.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:46 sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 03:29:49 Radium [~carbon@117.203.8.93] has joined #lisp 03:30:35 RomyRomy [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has joined #lisp 03:32:38 -!- zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-165-111.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:34:35 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:34:38 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 03:36:49 clintm [~clintm@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:05 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.149.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:37:46 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:39:50 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:40:05 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:41:05 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 03:43:55 -!- flipout [~user@75-175-122-6.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:44:26 lispnewbie [6c23a916@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.35.169.22] has joined #lisp 03:44:46 -!- pdponze [~pierre@37.0.41.146] has left #lisp 03:44:50 hi everyone 03:46:02 wow over 100+ users and no one responds..... 03:46:24 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:46:37 Please be quiet. 03:47:00 sorry wasn't trying to be rude 03:47:36 You might do better with a question. :) 03:48:10 ok how do i do an inventory in lisp? 03:48:39 for a textnadventure 03:49:05 That sounds like it might involve iterating a list. 03:49:17 like, (setf (inventory player) '(sword)) 03:49:45 (push 'sword (inventory player)) ; "you get ye sword" 03:50:25 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 03:50:36 huh i know setf inventory is a parameter whats (sword)? 03:50:38 (incf (item-count player "sword")) (: Otherwise those gold coins will be a pain to manage. 03:51:25 special-casing money is a time-honored tradition 03:51:39 There's no need to special-case it. 03:51:53 Just have a notion of quantity. 03:51:53 of course not 03:51:53 nah. (inventory *player*) => '(gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold gold ...) 03:52:05 or even better whats (incf (item-count)) 03:52:23 Ralith: or those ****** tiny red potions. 03:52:30 incf is function increment right? 03:52:38 pkhuong: hah, that's another matter 03:52:42 Not a function, but an operator. 03:53:03 (defvar x 0) (incf x) x is now 1. 03:53:35 A smooth operator? 03:53:38 why not (+ x 1) 03:53:57 lispnewbie: try it in your favourite implementation. 03:53:58 lispnewbie: incf is more like (setf x (+ x 1)) 03:54:35 i use common lisp with the land of lisp book as my guide 03:54:51 when you modify the inventory, just give each object an opportunity to interact with every other object, and make piles of gold always merge with each other 03:55:17 there is an example of making a inventory in that book 03:55:17 Doesn't work for counterfeit gold. 03:55:29 You need to do the merger at the point of display. 03:55:42 s/the/a/ 03:55:52 ok thanks, i guess i should comtinue reading at this point 03:56:42 Zhivago: That's a separate issue. You could merge real gold and counterfit gold piles separately, as I imagined, but combine them for display like you say. 03:57:25 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 03:58:01 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 03:58:02 this kind of world modeling is great fun. 03:58:07 hefner: bonus points: prove that the rewrite rules converge. 03:58:07 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.64.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:58:37 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.90.102] has joined #lisp 04:01:59 extra double bonus points if you make the compiler do it for you. 04:02:16 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:02:34 double plus plus bonus points if the compiler always terminates. 04:02:41 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:03:40 -!- ebobby [~fms@50-0-172-141.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:03:48 You only need objects to look at objects 'below' them in the inventory, and then perform the hooks on both 04:04:13 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1686.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:04:47 I don't know much about term rewriting; it seems like you'd want to place the objects in a lattice and show that the rewrite rules are all strictly increasing (or decreasing) along it. 04:04:54 Is that roughly right, or do I speak nonsense? 04:06:57 hefner: The rules should not have cycles, and never increase the total number of items 04:07:01 hefner: I don't think that's enough for confluence, only termination. 04:07:20 pkhuong: oh, right. 04:08:08 For example, let's say we have the rules AB -> D and BC -> E. What does ABC become? 04:08:57 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.137.11] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:09:30 -!- DDR is now known as CIA-DDR 04:09:59 If, on the other hand, we also had DC -> F, AE -> F, it wouldn't be an issue (there's a fork, but it's actually a diamond ;) 04:10:35 and if you prove P=NP, you get a cookie! 04:10:43 Is there a problem with having a well defined ordering on the rules? 04:11:27 scombinator: there's an UI issue. I would be pretty pissed at the game designer if I had different final inventories depending on the order in which I picked up items. 04:12:08 -!- CIA-DDR is now known as DDR 04:12:35 scombinator: that seems like it's reframing the problem into a question about an automaton that applies the rules (in whatever way it happens to apply them). 04:12:36 pkhuong: Well perhaps, but I can't see a use-case for having such complex rules that isn't a UI issue anyway 04:12:51 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:11 is it safe to use ~ character as a reader macro? 04:13:38 scombinator: yup. The easiest way to show convergence is to make sure the rewriting rules are trivial ;) 04:13:58 pkhuong: doesn't seem an unreasonable outcome to me, when you put it that way; now I imagine picking up an egg in the bottom of my pouch, with everything piled on top, versus picking the egg up last. 04:14:43 ..but learning how to prove confluence sounds more interesting to me. :) 04:14:44 hefner: Introduce the player as having OCD, and being meticulous about sorting their inventory 04:14:45 You'd put the egg in your hat pocket, anyhow. 04:14:52 hefner: I envision myself throwing a controller at the screen. 04:15:23 pkhuong: You'd play a text adventure with a controller? 04:15:33 3d text adventure. 04:15:35 scombinator: that must be why he's so frustrated. 04:15:37 hefner: term rewriting and all that is the usual reference, I believe. 04:15:54 hjkl is too complicated for me. 04:16:35 *hefner* wouldn't dream of abusing #lisp to patch the numerous gaping holes in his computer science education. 04:16:42 ebobby [~fms@50-0-172-141.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:43 -!- lispnewbie [6c23a916@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.35.169.22] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:22:34 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.8.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:22:47 sezo: I think that there's a list in the reader syntax character page. 04:28:40 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:29:17 -!- 18VAAD1KD [brambles@79.133.200.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:30:26 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 04:34:55 kleppari_ [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 04:36:18 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:36:56 slyrus [~chatzilla@rrcs-67-79-36-131.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:40:25 -!- ``Erik [~erik@pool-108-3-159-149.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:40:36 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@37.99.83.104] has quit [Quit: 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[Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:09:48 just a question from a lisp newbie, is the preferred editor for lisp emacs ? 08:10:08 dropster: the short answer is yes 08:10:13 ivan-kanis [~user@130.98.204.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:17 also on windows =? 08:10:23 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:10:27 yes 08:11:03 dropster: because you _will_ want to use SLIME 08:11:03 thanks il try to get it up and running here 08:11:12 the long answer is yes, too :) 08:11:39 H4ns: the long answer would be "for the sake of your own sanity, yes" 08:11:43 :) 08:12:22 dropster: use http://ourcomments.org/Emacs/EmacsW32.html 08:14:58 thanks, was trying the gnu emacs version 08:15:28 dropster: emacsw32 is gnu emacs with windows patches. it comes ready to install, download it and you'll be running right away. 08:15:59 downloading 08:16:10 dropster: In case you are used to VIM, the SLIMV (equivalent of slime for vim) maintainer is also on windows, so that should work fine, too. 08:16:32 im used to notepad+ :) so this is new territory for me 08:19:13 is it me or is the asdf documentation (here: controlling where asdf saves compiles files) not terribly clear? 08:19:46 thx for the help 08:21:29 or, asked in a different way, does anyone have some examples how asdf output translations should be used? 08:22:29 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@130.98.204.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:25:38 -!- whh [~wh@112.91.81.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:26:56 ivan-kanis [~user@130.98.204.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:24 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-029.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 08:29:33 whh [~wh@112.91.81.82] has joined #lisp 08:31:03 mel0on [1000@h-73-200.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 08:31:44 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:32:33 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:33:07 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:34:41 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:35:15 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-44-35.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:37:15 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:40:04 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.197.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 08:41:20 ViLord [~ViLord@herse.ipb.fr] has joined #lisp 08:41:28 hello 08:41:54 I would like to use multiple-value-bind in a do form. Is it possible? 08:42:08 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:43:35 anyone? 08:43:37 yes 08:44:40 what you can't do is bind the variables in do using M-V-B 08:45:06 Ok thank you 08:45:10 M-V-B itself can appear in DO in any place an expression can -- it's just an expression, after all 08:45:19 but I would like to do exactly that 08:45:44 yes of course 08:46:15 so is there a mean to bind the variables inside the do ? 08:46:19 you can use (setf (values ...) ...) to assign to the variables at the top of the loop 08:46:35 you can write the whole thing as a tagbody, or use LOOP 08:47:12 setf can bind multiple values from a function ? 08:47:29 assign, not bind 08:47:43 sorry assign 08:47:55 (defun foo () (values 1 2 3)) (let (x y) (setf (values x y) (foo)) (list x y)) 08:48:23 bbl 08:48:25 ViLord: sometimes, a simple LOOP and RETURN are clearer than DO or a complex LOOP 08:48:50 what he said :) 08:48:57 ViLord: i'd even say that DO rarely is the clearest option. 08:49:23 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:49:27 H4ns, did you have chance to peek at my cl-who patches yet? 08:49:43 nikodemus: hold on 08:49:46 ok thank you ^^ I will try to consider your advices ^^ 08:50:35 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@94.144.63.6] has joined #lisp 08:52:04 nikodemus: i like them, should i pull? 08:52:39 (i'll leave my sarcastic note to myself) 08:53:11 jdz: don't! our toxicity level is too low! 08:53:23 nikodemus: send me a pull request once you're ready 08:53:55 minion: chant 08:53:56 MORE INTERESTING 08:54:11 H4ns: it should be fine to pull the whole branch -- i just split it into separate requests for clarity 08:55:57 i merged the test changes and am waiting for the pre/indent changes 08:56:11 arquebus [~arquebus@184-157-249-158.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:32 new request sent with the remaining changes 09:02:07 chturne [~chturne@host86-136-158-113.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:02:45 nikodemus: *bow* 09:03:48 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.136] has joined #lisp 09:05:02 -!- tiglog [~topeak@123.114.127.89] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:05:23 thanks. the 
 has been a thorn in my side for ages, but didn't get around to doing anything to it till now :)
09:06:22  nikodemus: i'm not using cl-who myself, so it did not hurt me.  i'll try to make a release later this month, before the next ql dist.
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09:09:11  damn!  i forgot to reject the patch because the documentation has not been updated :/
09:09:31  nikodemus: can talk you into doing that?
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09:12:52  updating the docs? sure
09:13:00  thanks!
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09:13:30  hefner: heh yea formal education is useful.. I had found myself many a time implementing something I thought extremely clever, only to brag about it, followed by "isn't that XYZ?" followed by an hour of wikipedianing, realizing that if I ever had heard of XYZ before, would have saved me days of blindly trying useless ways of doing stuff
09:13:34  it's maintained by hand, right?
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09:15:34  ie coming up with complicated system of saving ambiguous parser's paths in parallel, until I stumbled on earley parser
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09:26:10  can anyone recommend a library for parsing command line options?
09:26:54  a just when i asked, i found that clon was what i was looking for.
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09:42:25  erm, well, maybe not.  clon seems to be rather heavy.  so if anyone has suggestions...
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09:45:55  H4ns: there was a discussion on this on cl-pro list recently
09:46:01  "recently"
09:46:13  jdz: let me check that out, thanks!
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10:42:42 *Xach* adds preloading
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11:05:00  Xach: Should I worry: ; Warning: Unknown tar block payload code -- 120 ; While executing: ql-minitar:unpack-tarball, in process repl-thread(13).
11:05:00   
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11:21:29  H4ns: documentation added
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11:25:52  Xach: building emacs22 is not as easy as i thought it would be
11:27:18  its makefiles are borked, it can't find libraries in the right places
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11:33:48  (and i gave up)
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11:58:14  stassats`: I don't remember having any difficulty building emacs from 20.7 to 23.4.2
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11:58:50  i congratulate you
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11:59:20  Hello
12:05:02  pjb: not a big deal
12:05:20  stassats`: darn
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12:39:01  ciao
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12:41:34  oh! oh!
12:41:50  now i can find out foreign library dependencies.
12:43:38  Xach: your powers grow day by day... if you continue like this you'll be able to take over the world in no time at all!
12:44:08 -!- fe[nl]ix is now known as lacedaemon
12:44:15 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix
12:45:12 *Xach* thinks of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCdt4AfSqqg
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12:46:32  Xach: how ?
12:46:37 -!- kilon_Afk is now known as kilon
12:47:16  fe[nl]ix: qlmapper plus sbcl's foreign library registry
12:47:36  I'll have to fiddle a bit to isolate the library to the system that initiated loading it
12:48:49 tashbear [~tash@unaffiliated/el-tash/x-7763973] has joined #lisp
12:50:04 *Xach* scratches chin, head
12:52:07  you could topologically sort the systems by their dependencies
12:52:30 *H4ns* gets a flashback of lorder 
12:52:36  | tsort :)
12:52:50 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:53:20  curiously enough, both lorder and tsort are still distributed with osx
12:56:05 chavezgu [~chavezgu@CableLink38-217.telefonia.InterCable.net] has joined #lisp
12:57:22 *Xach* has never heard of such mystical tools
12:58:00 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp
12:58:05  Xach: i'm resisting the urge to explain
12:58:07  Xach: debian package bsdmainutils ....
12:58:18  Thank you for your forbearance
12:58:49 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@94.144.63.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
12:59:15  Hmm, are there tools (not necessarily Lisp) that can simulate a connection reset? I'd like to have a spotty webserver to test some stuff with Quicklisp's http fetcher.
12:59:32  It would be nice to have a reliable, consistent failure mode against which to test.
13:01:21  I hear China has one of those
13:02:15  I bet teclo has scads of such tools, all written in pure CL by the experts in the field and the language
13:02:25  "no time to share, too busy climbing poles"
13:02:52  it's our major revenue source!  We sell our custom network flakiness technology to mobile operators the world over
13:03:29  oh, your business must be doing good in Italy judging by their networking quality!
13:03:30  it's the only possible explanation for mobile broadband's behaviour
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13:03:46 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.46.11.128] has joined #lisp
13:04:59  Xach: Not quite the same thing, but: http://9to5mac.com/2011/08/10/new-in-os-x-lion-network-link-conditioner-utility-lets-you-simulate-internet-and-bandwidth-conditions/
13:05:21  Xach: Although now, it's installed like this: http://stackoverflow.com/a/9659486
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13:09:28  Hmm, is sb-sys:*shared-objects* the best thing to look at for finding what foreign libraries are loaded?
13:09:57 stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.26.112] has joined #lisp
13:10:03 naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-247-132.w90-4.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp
13:10:17  yes
13:10:27  Xach: did you see what fun you're missing by updating ql only on demand? https://adblockplus.org/blog/downloading-a-file-regularly-how-hard-can-it-be
13:10:29  The pathnames there are relative - are those resolved by the linker? Is there a way to get the full resolved name?
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13:12:21  Xach: 1) yes and 2) the only way I know is to parse /proc/$pid/maps
13:12:42  assuming linux
13:12:49 *Xach* is very linux
13:13:16  thanks fe[nl]ix!
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13:16:24  Xach: something like cat /proc/$(pidof sbcl)/maps | awk '/r-xp 00000000.+\.so/ {print $6}'
13:16:29 -!- mklappstuhl [~martin@e179011122.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
13:16:51 *Xach* will do it in lisp
13:17:11  /proc/self/maps in sbcl is 3,500 lines long
13:19:02  Xach: I use sleep 5; sudo ifdown eth0; sleep 2; sudo ifup eth0. The 5 seconds is to give me to to switch back to the app and start the download
13:19:51  guess can do same thing by using iptables, or what is it called these days to block certain host, but was too lazy, and 2 second connection drop had not bothered me much
13:20:10  Xach: that's caused a problem before.  Because we do kernel-level write protection for the generational collector, the kernel has to keep lots of separate map entries
13:20:39  the ITA team always complained that we didn't support the more-than-262144 entries they needed
13:20:40  Xach: then dpkg-query -S and remove those owned by libc6
13:20:43  or something, anyway
13:21:10  there's a kernel limit that 64-bit sbcl could easily exceed
13:21:16  fe[nl]ix: I think I'll forward from sb-sys:*shared-objects* rather than backwards from the maps
13:21:31 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-177-242.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp
13:21:40  Kryztof: I've run into it on my 64-bit system
13:21:48  you must do some serious lisp programming!
13:22:07  I cried a little when the default heap changed from 8GB. I regularly use close to that.
13:22:10  and also some older kernels had horrible performance with lots of separate mappings
13:22:23  or dynamic space size
13:22:30  Xach: you may get false positives. I've seen at least one project explicitly loading libc even though it's redundant
13:22:44  fe[nl]ix: good to know. i'll keep watch for that kind of thing.
13:22:47  or libresolv
13:22:55  Xach: 8GB of heap, just to add a funny caption on an image?
13:23:37  "funny"
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13:25:37  ha took me a while tofind  where I had it, apparently it boot.local echo 965530 > /proc/sys/vm/max_map_count
13:25:56  otherwise SBCL chockes once it reaches around 13 gigs working set size
13:26:32  donno if its still needed actually, been there since opensuse 10.0
13:27:22  maxm-: can you enable hugepages?
13:28:14  flip214: have not tried that, since I know nothing about it. I remember vaguely reading that modern kernels automatically have them enabled on amd64 anyway?
13:28:29  maxm-: how modern is your kernel?
13:28:50  what does "cat /proc/meminfo  | grep huge -i" say?
13:28:56  2.6.37.6-0.11-desktop #1 SMP PREEMPT
13:29:06  would reduce the number of mappings immensely
13:29:48  maxm-: http://lwn.net/Articles/423584/ says "Transparent huge pages in 2.6.38
13:29:48  "
13:30:28  try "echo 32 > /proc/sys/vm/nr_hugepages" and restart sbcl
13:30:29  that would be totally unhelpful with sbcl
13:30:32  flip: everything zero, except last line says Hugepagesize:       2048 kB
13:30:44 hrs [~textual@ip-128-239-135-42.v4.wm.edu] has joined #lisp
13:30:58  jsnell: perhaps. don't know enough about sbcl.
13:31:24  flip214: I wrote it down as todo for next time I run huge simulation, have not done this it for a while
13:31:35  will let you know if it worked
13:32:43 *maxm-* is currently on a gui / visualization / reworking market data storage/collection part of his project
13:33:02 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
13:33:08  sounds interesting
13:33:46  Kryztof: just to load telecom billing files
13:34:32  flip214: its no big secret, one line summary of my project is "better TradeStation with lisp as scripting"
13:35:20 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp
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13:35:52  bonjour
13:36:00  for fast file byte-sized file io (containing characters or bytes) in which only lisp needs to access the data, would mmap be smart?
13:36:13  or should i look at other constructs?
13:36:42  madnificent: I used sb-sys:mmap for framebuffer access ... only bytes and u32, though
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13:37:14  flip214: i'd guess osicat is a 1->1 translation of that
13:37:37  guess so, yes
13:37:38  madnificent: as long as you're happy with using the FFI to access it and the file size stays constant, maybe
13:38:18  fe[nl]ix: are there alternatives for non-constant file size?  (i think i'll have to reorder everything in that case, but you never know)
13:39:24  alternatives to mmap() ?
13:40:24  alternatives to reading (random) and writing (sequential) content from/to disk without too much of a performance hit (though the hit will most likely all be disk latency)
13:42:34  madnificent: how about just mmap()ing up to the max you're using? Do you know that in advance?
13:42:35  Xach: commonqt doesn't load its libraries until the first application is started
13:43:02  stassats`: i wonder how common that practice is
13:43:16 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@94.144.63.14] has joined #lisp
13:44:15  madnificent: optimize later
13:44:18  It loads it with (ensure-smoke :qtcore) (ensure-smoke :qtgui), you can do it from around  method
13:44:30  madnificent: mmap(2) for reading, write(2) for writing
13:45:18  and how random is random?
13:45:25  flip214: i may be able to estimate it
13:45:32  on modern filesystems you can mmap 8 gig file, only write to 1st and last gig, and it will only use 2 gigs of space
13:45:39  xfs supports this for sure coz thats what I'm using
13:45:54  ls -l will say file is 8 gigs, but du will say 2
13:45:57  stassats`: random is: jump to a section, read a few megs from it, jump to a completely random next section.  the file is probably around 1GB
13:46:19  madnificent: would it go back?
13:46:24  flip214: it'll change over time though, but i could make it work like a vector works, i guess.
13:46:25  stassats`: yes
13:46:30  you need to give special options to rsync and tar to copy such files correctly, otherwise it will copy it as 8 gig one
13:46:59  madnificent: i reckon read(2) and mmap(2) will give you similar performance
13:47:16  you can't blog about using read(2)
13:47:21  writing a file with holes is a good way to kill sequential read performance
13:47:29  under linux does not read use mmap for small files anawy
13:47:29  stassats`: why would i use both, instead of just mmap?
13:47:41  H4ns: no holes, but random access
13:47:43  H4ns: shouldn't be true anymore for ext4
13:47:51  madnificent: both as in?
13:48:55  flip214: sure, if you write the whole file before it is flushed to disk, it won't be slow.  if you write a bit, then flush to disk, all bets are off with respect to sequential allocation of blocks.
13:49:20  H4ns: then don't flush ;)
13:49:23  in general, files with holes are a pain in the arse.
13:49:23 cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has joined #lisp
13:49:26  stassats`: i was looking at foreign-string-to-lisp, does that use read(2)?
13:49:29  flip214: thank you for your advice!
13:49:30  of course, preallocating helps ...
13:49:38  H4ns: unless your FS supports extents
13:50:10  stassats`: H4ns is talking about needing -H for copy and rsync, not about the storage, IIUHC
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13:50:38  H4ns: that (ext4) is going to be interesting for me soon.  thanks for the hint.
13:50:51  madnificent: what foreign-string-to-lisp has got to do with read(2)?
13:51:17  stassats`: you said use read(2) and mmap(2)...
13:51:26  stassats`: never mind, i misinterpreted the sentence.  my bad.
13:51:35  ok
13:52:05  does read have benefits over using mmap?
13:52:15 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
13:52:46  you need less address space
13:52:54  madnificent: do bananas have benefits over apples?
13:53:01 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp
13:53:06  oh yes, they're yellow
13:53:09  potentially more control
13:53:10  H4ns: yes!  you can shoot people with a banana, which makes me happy.
13:53:25 -!- ainm [~ainm@222.Red-83-33-82.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services]
13:53:28  madnificent: you can use pipes and sockets
13:53:31 ainm [~ainm@222.Red-83-33-82.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp
13:53:56  with small enough pipes you could put two of them into the socket and electrocute yourself!
13:54:08  just like with a banan
13:54:09  a
13:54:36  maxm-: not relevant in this case, but that's true
13:54:47  not relevant, hear hear! :)
13:54:54  stassats`: address space isn't an issue an 64bit afaik
13:55:00 *maxm-* loved to ask "you have largedb.dmp.gz" and need to import it to oracle, your steps, given that uncompressed dump size is larger then physical disks to potential dbas, to sort out those with fake unix credentials
13:55:01  s/an/on/
13:56:22 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
13:56:44  also potentially when reading sequentially, some OS may have read ahead logic in read(2), which may not be there for mmap
13:57:03  mmap does read-ahead as well
13:57:12  well, at least in linux
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13:58:16 *madnificent* is wondering why one would use read(2) over mmap(2) or vice-versa
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13:58:48  madnificent: read() can do unaligned access; mmap() normally gives a 4kB aligned address.
13:59:01  read() is one-way; mmap() (with proper flags) writes automatically, too.
13:59:28  read/write is two-way
13:59:28  read() and write() you know what you write; mmap() can write _anytime_, ie. doesn't necessarily do so when you expect it.
13:59:38  stassats`: yes, but read() is one-way
14:00:35  i don't understand this statement
14:00:37  flip214: so you'll have to close and flush to make sure the mmap is written to disk.
14:00:59  madnificent: no, even msync() isn't guaranteed to do that IIUC
14:01:02  man fsyncdata
14:01:03  Sorry, I couldn't find anything for fsyncdata.
14:01:06  man fsync
14:01:07  http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man2/fsync.2.html
14:01:24  stassats`: if you're only using read(), you can never destroy data on disk.
14:01:49  the same goes to mmap
14:01:50  stassats`: fdatasync, perhaps
14:01:54  if you use mmap() with the wrong parameter and have a buffer overflow/random erroneous write, you might kill data.
14:02:16  stassats`: no, because mmap() can haz PROT_READ only
14:02:37  with PROT_WRITE any stores might be written back to disk
14:02:38  what?
14:02:57  stassats`: if you mmap(), changes might reach disk.
14:03:13  so far we have apples, oranges and bananas; why add a pineapple too?
14:03:17  given sequential write and random read, read(2)/write(2) might make more sense.  i can also, to a reasonable extent, assume that reads and writes will not occur at the same time.
14:03:22  if you read() from a filehandle, changes in your local buffer _won't_ be written.
14:04:31  stassats`: so you need f_fullsync
14:04:38  need?
14:04:46  madnificent: what problem are you trying to solve, really?
14:04:49  stassats`: to force writing
14:04:59  H4ns: database-like structures on disk.
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14:05:29  madnificent: and the data is so large that you can't just read it into memory?
14:06:06 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!]
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14:07:06  H4ns: correct
14:07:44  have you considered using an existing database, like postgresql?
14:08:23 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp
14:08:55  postgresql uses an advanced technique known as read(2) and write(2)
14:09:25  Xach: ... and adds a few orders of magnitude of overhead
14:09:41  stassats`: yes, however the way we access the data is ill-suited for conventional databases.  we're building one that does solve our issues.  the file-based backend is used both as a persistent store and for the information of which we know it will likely not currently be used.
14:09:47  Wooho
14:09:54  Xach: i'm not saying it is relevant, but discussing mmap, or read/write, or postgres really is pointless.
14:09:56  My template system works pretty neatly now
14:10:16 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp
14:10:17  madnificent: exactly how large are the files?
14:10:34 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
14:10:37  And pretty fast
14:10:49  H4ns: there seems to be an implied assumption that the simplest techniques are unsuitable but it isn't clear to me why.
14:11:16  Xach: i'm not assuming anything because i know nothing about the problem at hand :)
14:12:00  stassats`: depends on the data that we're processing.  but 20 gigs would be on the higher end.
14:12:11  Xach: also, "simple" is not a very well-defined term.  did you want to say that using postgres is "simple"?
14:12:18 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-189386.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp
14:12:20  that will fit perfectly into memory
14:12:29  stassats`: it doesn't we tried
14:12:36  H4ns: I want to say that a complex, full-featured, high-speed system like Postgres uses read and write to read and write its data.
14:12:49  H4ns: And that a similarly high-speed and useful system might be able to do the same.
14:12:50  stassats`: we have a 16gb server at the moment.  still memory is rather expensive at the moment
14:12:52  what does redis use? :)
14:13:01  One might even be able to use read-sequence and write-sequence!
14:13:01  Xach: ah, understood.
14:13:35  Xach: i misinterpreted it as well, but thanks :)
14:13:38  Xach: right.  with the benefit that one would have the data in lisp sequences rather than bytes.
14:15:10  hefner: What Would NoSQL Jesus Do?
14:15:36  read-sequence and write-sequence might not be that bad.  i can migrate to semthing different if it would perform well enough fairly easily.
14:15:36  No manual entry for save
14:15:52  s/semthing/something/
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14:16:20  * and wouldn't
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14:18:33  redline6561: I need some code examples, the cl-web-utils repo doesnt contain any ;p I'm trying to document every single function/macro
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14:18:50  when i started writing my database, i used s-exps and READ
14:19:00 -!- kilon_alios is now known as kilon
14:19:03  hefner: redis swaps to death instead of writing my data to disk ;)
14:19:21  optikalmouse: let me see if i have any good examples...
14:19:25  now i have a compact binary format and my own I/O routines
14:19:56  stassats`: yeah, we worked our initial tests with s-expressions as well.  everything in memory.  then we went to using arrays and more advanced queries.  now the data size dictates a different approach.  it's nice we can go through all stages though.
14:20:32  16GB of memory sounds rather small
14:20:58  i can have as much in my desktop for the price of a dinner
14:21:20 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-34-42.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp
14:21:29  stassats`: then you should enjoy it.  my constraints are different :)
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14:29:48  optikalmouse: i don't really have examples for much more than define-json-request and define-xml-request. here's a simple example of the former: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128870
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14:30:37  redline6561: those are the main two functions, ja?
14:31:18  redline6561: how do you use the request afterward? (artist/blogs 123908123)?
14:31:21  optikalmouse: yep. they're very similar in intended usage.
14:31:54  optikalmouse: as i recall that would return a json object, yeah.
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14:34:00  redline6561: so the only thing that happens is that there's a json or xml parse of the result of the http request?
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14:35:48  optikalmouse: more or less. https://github.com/redline6561/cl-web-utils/blob/master/simple-http-request.lisp#L81
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14:37:58  redline6561: is there any reason why simple-http-request is a macro? :S
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14:38:29  optikalmouse: you could ask the original author but he's not around :P
14:39:08  redline6561: oh right you're just the maintainer! :P
14:41:12  redline6561: actually I just figured it out, it needs to fudge around with the argument list (all-args-p)
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14:43:03  macroexpand-1 is a good friend with will's code (esp. older code like cl-web-utils)
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14:47:07  heh, I forgot about macroexpand-1
14:47:21  I've been working with Ruby for the last few months and it's so....weak sometimes.
14:48:28  SLIME's C-c C-m and C-c M-m are even better friends
14:48:37  macroexpand-1? you mean C-c C-m?
14:49:00  i should totally write C-c C-m for Elisp
14:49:53  heheh
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15:10:33  If I assign a new package to *PACKAGE* in a dynamic context, what impact does it have? Does it affect anything else except for the default package for INTERN?
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15:11:29  loke: a lot of things use *package* as the default value of an optional argument.
15:11:41  is there a thing like prog1 but for let? already looked in alexandria
15:11:43  loke: INTERN is one, but most package-related functions are similar.
15:12:16  e.g. export, import, use-package
15:12:29  Xach: you mean things like FIND-SYMBOL?
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15:12:41  ah ok
15:12:54  sure, that's one too. and it affects things that call INTERN implicitly, like READ or READ-FROM-STRING
15:14:24  loke: and you probably do not want to _assign_ to *package*, but _bind_ instead
15:14:36  jdz: well, "dynamic context" helps.
15:14:36  or maybe that's what you meant
15:14:46  Yeah. I use LET
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15:16:02  It's my template stuff of course... I can generate internal variables inside the template, and in order to make sure they are kept, well, local, I do this:
15:16:02  http://code.google.com/p/docbrowser/source/browse/template/parser.lisp#216
15:16:16  Actually, line 213
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15:16:50  Damn, this project makes me learn new stuff. I love that :-)
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15:20:09  Where do you delete the package?
15:20:43  Nowhere
15:20:46  Aren't they GC'ed?
15:20:50  I wouldn't think so.
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15:21:08  A package is a global resource referenced by name into which things can be put at any time.
15:21:16  Just the name?
15:21:25  Yes.
15:21:29  Ooooh
15:21:30  damn
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15:21:40  And I thought I was so damn clever...
15:21:48  So you could conflict with anyone who defines a package named G42 for whatever reason.
15:21:54  Ya, obviously
15:22:01  loke: you could dedicate a package to the purpose and flush it after use
15:22:29  I can't, since I have one package per template
15:22:35  then again... I don't really need that
15:23:04  Now that I think about it. The template generator only creates lexical bindings, so I might just as well have a single package for all tempaltes.\
15:26:44  There fixed.
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15:45:25  *package* is also used by the printer to decide whether to print the symbols qualified or not.
15:47:46  A package can be garbage collected if you delete it (and lose all references to it, and, depending on the implementation, to all of the symbols whose home was the deleted package).
15:51:30  one of my favorite special cases
15:52:19  (let ((*package* (find-package :keyword))) (prin1-to-string :foo))
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15:54:17 *hefner* doesn't get it
15:55:01  hefner: normally when *package* is the home package of a symbol it prints with no prefix or package marker
15:56:11  But in the case of keyword, IIRC, there's an exception and the colon is still printed.
15:56:37  Yes, that's it.
15:56:39  yes, an explicit exception
15:57:04  printing a keyword is a special case regardless of *package* though, yes?
15:57:11  yes
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16:20:40 <_8david> I'm trying examples from cl-l10n docs, e.g. (cl-l10n::format t "~,vU" "%A" 3192624000).  According to the manual, that prints `Saturday', but it doesn't.  Am I doing it wrong?
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16:22:10  What does it print instead?
16:22:35 *vsync* knows nothing of that but what's your time zone?
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16:23:36 <_8david> Well, I have one Lisp (CCL) that errors out, and one (Allegro) that doesn't print anything.  Admittedly not with the same version of cl-l10n.
16:23:51 tony87 [~tony@adsl-ull-133-86.50-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp
16:23:58  Maybe the error includes important clues.
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16:25:31 <_8david> Zhivago: sure, but if actual debugging is required, I will do it myself.  I just wanted to check whether maybe someone here is a heavy cl-l10n user and immediately knows how to do it.
16:25:47 <_8david> anyway; turns out that (cl-l10n:format-time nil 3192624000 nil nil cl-l10n:*locale* "%A") does what I want.
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16:26:05  An enlightened notion. :)
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17:20:45  navel-gazing hack project: CL on DCPU-16 http://0x10c.com/doc/dcpu-16.txt
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17:26:33  I like how every coder who knows about minecraft instantly jumped at the chance to code DCPU-16 stuff.
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17:28:43 *stassats* doesn't get the fuzz about this dcpu thing
17:29:33  stassats: I guess many people have a pent up urge to play with machine code, and some of them don't have the sense to channel their energies toward a machine that actually exists
17:31:13  hefner: +1
17:31:50  :)
17:32:03  There was a time where a computer was entirely comprehensible by a human brain. I think it's a call back to those times.
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17:33:07  Plus, creating things in a game that you can share on youtube is cool. Programming a real machine is dorky.
17:33:53  Wait, so DCPU-16 is an in-Minecraft CPU that someone built?
17:35:40  no, what's his name's new cpu-based mmo
17:35:59 *stassats* doesn't get all the fuzz around minecraft either
17:37:03 *wccoder* googles
17:37:35  hefner: well, a virtual world you could "program" would be neat .. neater than minecraft imo, though i think you get very limited memory capacity, so a full CL is probably not going to happen
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17:38:40  dlowe: On Mac there was a digital circuit simulator, on which I patched a 4-bit CPU.  The memory was painful to do, since there was no way to generate the circuit automatically.  Everything had to be done by hand.  When I lost the work because of a crash, I abandonned the project :-(
17:39:08  But the basic mechanisms worked, I fetch codop and decoded them :-)
17:39:08  oGMo: Oh? Ask gb about the early versions of CCL.
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17:39:51  oGMo: I'm dreaming of a D&D where wizards program spells in lips.
17:39:52  lisp.
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17:40:28  oGMo: I thought your "cpu-based mmo" line was a joke, but I googled and it's not  holy crap.
17:40:29  sellout: well from what i read (which is admittedly only the original page) i think you get on the order of bytes .. if early ccl fit in that i would be impressed though :)
17:41:02  pjb: atrocity archive style
17:41:15 *hefner* would like to know more about how, and how well, ancient MCL fit into machines with only a few megs of ram
17:41:24  oGMo: LISP 1.5 worked in 32Kword memory.  Other lisps worked on smaller memories on PDP computers.
17:41:45  pjb: sure .. you can do lisp in a few K, but i don't think you can do full CL in a few K
17:42:07  The symbol names won't fit in a few K
17:42:10  but you don't really need to in this case
17:42:37  oGMo: Oh, that is small. Early CCL was well under 1 MiB, I think around 700 KiB.
17:42:44  sellout: nice
17:42:49  You can compress them :-)
17:43:18  (that's pre-MCL CCL  When the first C was Coral, not Clozure)
17:43:28  you could page them if you have solid storage but i don't think 0x10c does
17:43:36  The first Lisp on Mac ran on 1 MB RAM, even if 4 MB was advised.
17:43:58 BrianRice [~water@75-172-21-21.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp
17:44:03  Besides, you can always implement a subset of CL.
17:44:13 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.92.213] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:44:21  or something like GOAL perhaps (?)
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17:51:55  Shen
17:52:24 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp
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17:54:44  It can be fun to try to make things small.  We're pretty profligate consumers of memory these days.
17:55:10 Yuuhi [benni@p548399D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp
17:55:20  that's not where the bleeding edge is, though
17:55:31  the challenge now is using it all productively
17:55:40  and for that... there's 64-bit sbcl
17:56:30  And 64-bit ccl too, you insensitive cad.
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17:57:40  using less memory would come in handy for ARM devices, like phones
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18:03:55  It may not matter.  Devices are starting to have 1GB of memory already, and that's starting to be quite comfortable territory for any reasonable CL.
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18:04:25 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77-46-225-138.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
18:05:33  only if you don't have to share it
18:06:12 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has joined #lisp
18:06:14  doesn't seem like anyone gets anything done these days with loading 256 MB of libraries first
18:07:04 -!- Kron [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!]
18:07:16  without, rather.
18:07:20 Kron_ [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has joined #lisp
18:07:30  no, the first way round was right too
18:09:19 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-204-106.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp
18:09:46  rme: there still be cheap ones with less memory
18:10:08  will be
18:10:32  speaking of which
18:11:19  http://xach.com/tmp/foreign-libraries.sexp
18:11:28 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2507E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
18:11:28  an application of qlmapper
18:12:07  not great, as it doesn't show that libssl is actually loaded for drakma, e.g.
18:12:47 -!- mklappstuhl [~martin@fak8.grp.tu-berlin.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
18:12:53  still, it was easy to write and only took 40 minutes to produce
18:13:14  shuffletron has so many dependencies!
18:13:21 pnq [~nick@ACA2507E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp
18:15:13  it's out of control.
18:15:27  Xach: why, the link does show it
18:15:55 *stassats* is slowly writing his ogg/vorbis decoder in lisp
18:16:13  stassats: sounds like a fun project.
18:16:26 Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has joined #lisp
18:16:29  stassats: the link does show what?
18:16:44  Xach: ("drakma" (("libssl.so.0.9.8" "/usr/lib/libssl.so.0.9.8")))
18:17:08  stassats: right, i mean that many other projects show "libssl.so" when it is really their dependence on drakma that introduces it.
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18:17:10  hefner: yeah, will be finished in 5 years at this rate
18:17:22  Xach: oh, ok
18:17:35  stassats: an ideal report would only show foreign libraries that are needed directly rather than by required libraries
18:17:56  and doesn't show commonqt at all, as expected
18:18:14 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.136] has joined #lisp
18:18:24  a bummer
18:18:41  you can find which libraries i had to find & build by hand by looking for "/usr/local"
18:18:47  extradebian libraries
18:19:08  not too bad, all things considered
18:19:22  speaking of which, dlowe
18:19:25  how goes the sbcl repo?
18:20:52  Xach: you could check the changes to *shared-objects* in the around method to the method asdf uses to load dependencies
18:21:27  Xach: I got stalled trying to set up multiple distributions/architectures, and then I've been really sick for the past month
18:21:36  I'll get back to it soon
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18:21:54  stassats: hmm, can you flesh that out in more detail?
18:22:02  I'm not familiar with that feature of ASDF
18:23:16 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
18:23:22  Xach, you're a GNU Stow fan I hope, for that /usr/local stuff.
18:24:42  Nope.
18:24:50  Are you familiar with it?
18:25:05  Nope.
18:26:18  Ah. So, you have /usr/local/stow/package, and build with "make foo; make install prefix=/usr/local/stow/package", and then go into /usr/local/stow and say "stow package". It populated the appropriate places in /usr/local with symlinks to /usr/local/stow/package, and works nicely for isolating packages and facilitating clean upgrades and so forth.
18:26:26  I'll check it out sometime.
18:26:47  There's a Debian package for it. (apt-get install stow) - pretty useful for precisely your situation.
18:27:25  The situation that would be helpful for me is if it made a dep and stuck it on a repo on a server somewhere so I can set up a new system more quickly.
18:27:25  The nice part is that things look for /usr/local/whatever as you'd expect, so nothing custom has to happen for finding includes, libraries, etc.
18:28:07  That could be machined, I think. You could do your build and make a tarball of each relevant stow directory.
18:28:27 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2507E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
18:29:15  The only place that would be potentially messy would be optional build parameters that might include varying content based on what ./configure sees when you build the package. This could be alleviated with a throw-away build environment chroot or whatever, of course. But that's a bit more infrastructure.
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18:39:40 *Xach* sticks source tarballs in dropbox for now
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18:49:27  H4ns: submitting that patch to alexandria is taking just as much debate as I expected >_>
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18:53:48  Ralith: What about LET1 as a name?
18:55:20 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has joined #lisp
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18:57:00  Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128875
18:57:43  you can even pinpoint in which file it happens
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18:58:13  sellout: not a bad idea.
18:58:19 *Ralith* pings nikodemus 
18:58:21  Ralith: heh not sure if it was in my subconcious from you previously discussing it, I just asked if there is such a thing a few hours ago
18:58:32 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.46.11.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
18:58:37 -!- Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
18:58:59  Ralith: after finding myself writing lots of (let ((obj (make...))) (long-winded-setup-of-obj) obj)
18:59:07 Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has joined #lisp
18:59:12  I *thought* that was a common usecase ^^
18:59:39 *stassats* finds himself not subscribe to alexandria-devel@, amends this situation
19:00:03  especially when the setup's long winded, so it's not at all obvious when you begin reading the form that you're ultimately returning obj
19:00:32  stassats: thank you very much
19:01:22 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-158-119.as43234.net] has joined #lisp
19:02:08 -!- bondar [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit []
19:02:22  and somebody should totally do something about qt spitting gobbles of "STYLE-WARNING: Undefined alien"
19:02:38 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
19:02:55 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-120-5.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
19:04:05 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.7.48] has quit [Quit: leaving]
19:04:48  STYLE-WARNING: [qr code that links to the text of the warning]
19:05:49  well, where would you find somebody who will write qr code spitting machine?
19:06:29 sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has joined #lisp
19:07:31  does SLIME have any docstring displaying functionality, similar to the arglist prompt?
19:08:01  it occurs to me that "(func &rest args) ; docstring" would be a convenient format
19:08:14  C-c C-d does describe symbol
19:09:04  Ralith: I'd be curious to know how well that would work out in practice. My impression is that docstrings are too arbitrarily formatted for that to be really useful.
19:09:14 -!- mucker [~harsha@183.83.227.117] has left #lisp
19:09:37  Xach: you can display minibuffer on a second monitor
19:10:02  Xach: that occurred to me too, but I have a hard time imagining it being detrimental, and docstrings *are* frequently concise one-liners.
19:10:03  We should standardize on a format for doc strings.  I'd use reST (restructured Text).
19:10:24  Ralith: M-x slime-documentation
19:10:31  even large, formatted docstrings often begin with a concise one-line summary
19:10:35  Emacs convention is that the first line of the doc string is a short oneliner.
19:10:54  stassats: rather less interactive than I was hoping for.
19:11:00  the .md that github uses is almost good, but paragraphs inside lists seems to work only intemediatly
19:11:13  Ralith: how interactive were you hoping for?
19:11:13  Ralith: what's wrong with (let (...) (prog1 obj (long-winded-setup-of-obj))) ?
19:11:26 bjonnh [~bjonnh@bdn33-2-89-86-25-253.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp
19:11:32  stassats: something in the minibuffer, a la arglists, really.
19:11:36  or similarly automatic.
19:12:01  no, there's nothing and i don't see it growing anything like this
19:12:11 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.7.48] has joined #lisp
19:12:13  why's that?
19:12:19 moderndandy [~x5easy-1@host109-155-23-47.range109-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp
19:12:30  because i don't think it's useful
19:12:48  on what basis?
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19:12:58  Ralith: I like your idea.
19:13:13  \o/
19:13:13  There are 88 macros in CL.  Let's write 88*88 combinations of macros, for a nice library of 7744 macros.
19:13:20  Ralith: here for 5 minutes or so
19:13:24  oh god all of #lisp reads alexandria-devel don't they
19:13:33  let-prog1, let-prog2, let-let, let-if, if-let, etc.
19:13:44  Ralith: docstrings are too long, you usually need them to read only once
19:13:53  nikodemus: was just marking sellout's suggestion for reference
19:13:58  ,lol@macrocombos
19:14:03  Ralith: try (tooltip-show "long winded text") in emacs
19:14:07  Ralith: now i do!
19:14:18  ah
19:14:43 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp
19:14:44  (tooltip-show "long \n winded \n text") works too.
19:14:52  ah, I can see how that wouldn't scale well.
19:15:11  trimming to the first line would work sometimes, but perhaps not reliably enough to be worthwhile.
19:15:13  Xach: if slime started showing the first line of docstring somewhere, i bet people would start trying to make the first line useful
19:15:16  Ralith: I'm quite sure the "long winded text" should be no major issue. Just have some setting where you tell it max amount of lines to display.
19:15:43 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-80-89.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
19:15:43  nikodemus: could be
19:15:54  schmx: I'd envisioned it just stripping newlines, and not bothering trying to display anything that doesn't fit
19:16:09  the minibuffer suddenly going multiline always annoys me a bit >_>
19:16:11  Ralith: oh. keeping it simple. BAH!
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19:17:17  Ralith: You could even have a docstring buffer for displayering.
19:17:22  maxm-: so in the minibuffer, handled as I described, I don't think the longwindedness is an issue.
19:17:27  if a function needs to have a constantly displayed docstring around it, then its badly named and its arglist is bad
19:17:28  schmx: if I had more screen space I might do just that!
19:17:33  and no amount of documentation will fix it
19:17:41  first line is really not that much more useful then function name itself
19:17:50  s/first its/it's/
19:17:55  pjb: short helpful one-liner is the convention for a lot of things.
19:18:00  stassats: certainly, but I observe that there is empty space to the right of the arglist in my minibuffer, and there are nonzero instances where having the docstring there would have been useful.
19:18:15  it seems harmless at worst and not infrequently helpful.
19:18:31  to me (if this is implemented) the ideal workflow would be a key binding, that for the form you currently typing, would popup large tooltip, out of the way of where point is, with (documentation ...) of the current object
19:18:35  you can write a contrib for it
19:18:44  fair enough
19:18:50 *Ralith* eyes elisp warily
19:18:57  and publish it, and maybe some other maintainer will commit it
19:19:09  but i don't like the idea and won't touch it
19:20:05  I don't know much about how the minibuffer is managed, or SLIME's internals--is it sane for a contrib to append to the arglist output without modifying slime's core (or other contribs)?
19:20:13  FWIW, emacs display docstrings for variables when you use eldoc
19:20:34 -!- two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
19:20:43  in elisp?
19:20:47  Ralith: no idea if that's even possible
19:20:50  Ralith: yes
19:21:04  yeah, that's why I asked
19:21:11  it seems like it might be a tricky point
19:21:28  perhaps it might take control of the minibuffer and invoke the arglist generating code itself?
19:21:38  actually if people would agree on standard format for describing function args, similar to javadoc @arg
19:21:42  Ralith: that sounds better
19:21:57 *Ralith* shall have to poke around in the code
19:22:04  the proposed (display-tooltip) thing, can show the documentation for arg the point is on (it already knows it to make it bold in autodoc)
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19:22:25  maxm-: I think the informal convention is that ALL-CAPS text refers to the symbol of the same name
19:22:54  it's just not often formatted for easy isolation
19:23:01  which I guess was your point
19:24:18 *maxm-* personally had a mismash of styles in his docstrings, lately I've meen using markdown syntax tables.. It looks like org-mode or mysql table, but lighter, with no outer border
19:24:40  maxm-: that would look like a psql output's table
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19:27:41  Problem with them, often in explanation of arguments, you need inner sub-list, ie TYPE =>  one of :BAR (description of bar) :BAZ (description of baz)
19:27:54  so you can only do 1 level, coz nested text tables look way ugly
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19:29:17 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:29:19  while working with large datasets (say couple of million records) do people prefer any particular kind datastore in lisp applications ?
19:29:37  my own!
19:30:31  stassats, means you wrote it from scratch ?
19:30:31 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2507E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
19:30:41  yes
19:31:08  otherwise, i'd use something like postgresql
19:31:31  is it web-scale?
19:31:52  hefner, will not be directly used by web
19:32:12  hefner, have to write an API which can used by any other system
19:32:39 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-320369.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
19:32:44  target is to provide the information and manipulate (mostly matching symbols/names) in an efficient manner
19:33:01  stassats, my knowledge is not that good :(
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19:38:18  kushal: if its adhoc project, ie you don't care about transactions/concurrency etc, imho just storing stuff in hash table, and using :cl-store system, to save/restore it from blob
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19:39:04  Hum. There's no portable way to check if a character is simple, is there?
19:39:07  kushal: it will handle pretty much everything inside, lists, hashes, structures, CLOS instances etc
19:39:47 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
19:39:56  kushal: I had successfully stored/restored complex tree of assorted stuff with this method, with blob sizes in the gigabytes
19:40:05  maxm-, ok,
19:40:19  And, are there implementations in actual use that have characters that aren't simple?... (as in, have implementation-defined attributes). If not, maybe I can just assume simple characters...
19:40:28  maxm-, but that also means the system should have enough RAM , correct ?
19:40:49  Hexstream: what is a simple character?
19:40:53  kushal: yes, this method is for stuff that fits into memory
19:40:59  ok
19:41:01  clhs 13.1.3
19:41:01  Character Attributes: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/13_ac.htm
19:41:28  Ah
19:41:55  maxm-, any other choice than this ?
19:42:05  if your stuff does not, then the shortest "time to prototype" is probably an SQL database. There is a lispy database called elephant, but I have not tried it so don't know if its any good
19:42:05  clhs glossary/simple
19:42:05  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm#simple
19:42:11  (also)
19:42:40  kushal: I know elephant is in quicklisp, and it least one project (cl-twitter?) uses it as backend to cache stuff
19:42:59  maxm-, the current implementation is using mysql as backend
19:43:24  maxm-, ok, I can see in elephant's page that development is slow from 2009
19:44:02  elephant was hard to get into quicklisp and i don't think it's all that easy to use out of quicklisp, either.
19:44:07  kushal: also if you have dinoros, allegro folks have commercial solution which from the description on their website is basically best thing ever, transacting with one hand, y-combinating with the other, but again I have not tried it. THeir solution is called AllegroCache? i think
19:44:10  So, I guess the right question to ask is: "Is there an implementation in current use that has implementation-defined character attributes?" and the answer I expect is "No."
19:44:41  maxm-, yes, AllegroCache and AllegroGraph
19:45:12  so what is your problem with mysql, performance?
19:45:59 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp
19:45:59  Hexstream: our venerable lisp machine users would challenge that claim.
19:46:13  darn. slippery fellow.
19:46:45  he reads logs
19:46:51  He reads logs compulsively, so you could just continue to refer to his nick and some time later he will arrive to continue the conversation.
19:46:58  It's like email, but more annoying.
19:47:29  hah
19:47:48  and you can't talk bad things about him behind his back
19:47:50 *Xach* imagines future April 1 post: ASDF upgraded, now works only on Genera
19:48:27  maxm-, yes
19:49:50  kushal: well essentially you probably would want to join #mysql and discuss it there
19:49:59  maxm-, :)
19:50:03  since there are lots of different scenarios, and ways of fixing them
19:50:17  maxm-, true, slowly fixing them one by one
19:50:37 achiu [~achiu@216.174.109.254] has joined #lisp
19:50:39  maxm-, and was also looking into what all other options we have :)
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20:21:17  how do i find the asdf search paths in common lisp?
20:21:47  asdf:*central-registry*  ?
20:21:57  No.
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20:22:57  flipout: I'm not sure if there's a supported, terse way to find that out.
20:23:12  flipout: I'm curious, too. You probably could get an answer on the asdf-devel mailing list.
20:23:51 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20:23:57  OpenMusic 3 : 1 > (push "C:/stefil" asdf:*central-registry*)
20:23:57  ("C:/stefil" *default-pathname-defaults*)
20:23:57   
20:23:57  OpenMusic 4 : 1 > (asdf:load-system :stefil)
20:24:01   
20:24:03  Error: The symbol "LOAD-SYSTEM" is not external in the ASDF package.
20:24:13  flipout: You are using a very old version of ASDF.
20:24:19 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.32.62.108] has joined #lisp
20:24:30  http://l1sp.org/asdf/asdf.lisp is the latest
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20:25:18  OpenMusic 4 : 2 > (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'stefil)
20:25:19   
20:25:19  Error: #<***error while formatting: string "~%~:[~;Error: ~]~a~%", arg types (symbol asdf:missing-component), error 'Fancy directives in delivery require keeping PPRINT by :KEEP-PRETTY-PRINTER : "~@              ~@[ or does not match version ~A~]~
20:25:56  this seems to indicate asdf was able to attempt to load the system
20:26:36 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0485.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:26:43  flipout: What Common Lisp implementation are you using?
20:28:43 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-192-6.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp
20:29:02  is there a common lisp form for finding that out? i am using what ever is bundled with openmusic 6.5.1
20:29:21  flipout: (lisp-implementation-type) and (lisp-implementation-version)
20:29:26  it should be lispworks-based
20:29:36 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.26.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20:29:44  "LispWorks"
20:30:00  6.0.1
20:30:16  you are probably using a delivered binary
20:30:34  that has had some CL functionality stripped, on the assumption that you are not doing CL programming
20:30:38  use sbcl instead
20:31:13  i will takelook
20:31:25  tks Xach Kryztof Posterdati
20:31:51  ok
20:32:00  flipout: are you on Linux
20:32:01  ?
20:33:27  windows
20:33:47  i don't think i can switch lisp implementations and continue to use openmusic
20:34:25  it could be possible but no time
20:34:33 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp
20:34:57  Question:  How much do people regularly use the REPL variables -, +, *, / and their friends nowadays?
20:35:28  jcowan: a lot. Interactively.
20:35:43  Notice that they're useless in programs.
20:35:47  Sure.
20:36:12  *, **, *** constantly. / occasionally.
20:36:29  I'm writing a trial balloon for (scheme repl) library, and I'm introducing them in the forms --, -+, -*, -/ because Scheme is a Lisp-1.
20:36:47  flipout: this? -> http://repmus.ircam.fr/openmusic/home
20:37:55  jcowan: now, I'd say 90% of the time, it's *, ** and *** that are used. Instead of  +, ++ and +++ you would use M-p and M-r
20:38:58 *hefner* recalls doing #.+ frequently for some reason, whilst stuck without line editing
20:39:20 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has joined #lisp
20:39:24  Chicken supports #n where #1 is the first value bound by this REPL, #2 is the second, and so on.  Absolute, not relative.  These numbers appear in the prompt, which is ;#n>, making it a comment.
20:40:31  jcowan: I like that approach better.
20:41:14 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20:41:26  It's nice that you can cut and paste multiple interactions and the prompt doesn't get in the way.
20:42:14  for some reason, this absolute versus relative reference business makes me imagine a CL repl inside a spreadsheet
20:43:04  hefner: SES.
20:43:17 *hefner* ses relax.
20:43:30  Of course, once emacs is rewritten in CL, SES will use CL forms instead of elisp ones.
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20:46:22  I'd totally use that if elisp had CL's numeric tower.
20:47:14  jcowan: when I'm using a repl as a calculator the somewhat strange looking (* * *) get's used regularly to square the last result
20:47:26 *jcowan* chuckles.
20:47:51  jasom: my god, it's full of stars.
20:50:33  how often do you need to square the last result?
20:50:43 mklappstuhl [~martin@e179015090.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp
20:52:09  I thought emacs had already been rewritten in CL a few times.
20:52:32  jcowan: there's Hemlock, yes.
20:52:44  But we'd want to be able to run all the emacs libraries.
20:52:49  more promising is being able to use Emacs with Guile.
20:52:53  Right.
20:52:56  optikalmouse: I agree
20:52:59  full numeric tower :D
20:53:17  Lexical scope.
20:53:27 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20:53:39  modules, namespacing
20:53:40  CL has a full numeric tower
20:53:45  emacs lisp has lexical scope
20:53:51 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp
20:53:52  emacs24 has lexical scope.
20:53:58  no?
20:54:50 -!- cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: quit]
20:54:57  I really don't know anything about 24.
20:55:08  Emacs - The Jack Bauer Release
20:55:14   :-)
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20:57:23  ooh, bidi, shiny!
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21:01:56  lexical scope in emacs lisp.  Now what is the world coming to? ;)
21:02:07 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp
21:02:24  They still lack reader macros and packages.
21:02:32  anyway, I have no idea, I'm just kicking up dust ;)
21:03:15  Posterdati: yes
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21:04:16  meh no more (let ((fubar-internal-var 'must-unfubar-you)) (setq ad-return-value ad-do-it)) ?
21:04:21  that sucks
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22:13:01  So! What did you make?
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22:18:29  Xach: ?
22:18:37 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp
22:18:59  What did you make?
22:19:51  who was the question directed at?  it seems to come out of nowhere
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22:20:06 *|3b|* just fixed bugs, not gotten to the point of making something yet :(
22:20:33  madnificent: No need for meta, and if you made nothing, no need to remark!
22:20:35 *|3b|* hopefully has slime-proxy back to working with relatively recent slime at least
22:20:48 *madnificent* made sexml and should really publish it
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22:22:15  i thought it was directed to some specific person
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22:25:11 *rme* hacks a graphical midi viewer
22:25:56  neat!
22:26:08 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:26:09  I made a type inference engine!
22:26:14 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.32.56.43] has joined #lisp
22:26:17  it's not quite debugged yet, though.
22:27:14 *|3b|* hasn't made one of those in a while... wonder if i'll ever get back to that project
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22:32:38 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:33:15  now with qlmapper out, i should have no obstacles in collecting statistics
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22:40:11  i like statistics, i should probably bolt down stats collection to specbot
22:40:26  although i can do it retroactively from logs
22:44:25 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp
22:45:42  hey, can you guys help me name this function?: (lambda (x) (if (stringp x) x (format nil "~(~A~)" x)))
22:45:45 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)]
22:46:05  what about it?
22:48:20  I'm just trying to think up an ideal name for it
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22:48:47  descriptively and concisely refer to what it does
22:48:53  how about princ-to-string?
22:49:17 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.107.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
22:49:37  except it downcases symbols
22:49:56  but doesn't downcase strings
22:50:15  what do you call something like that?
22:51:15  how about you name write-to-string :escape nil :case :downcase then?
22:52:08  robot-beethoven: do you only want symbols and strings?
22:52:24  if so, then call STRING-DOWNCASE
22:52:27  call it
22:53:02  oh, you're not downcasing strings, then write-to-string it is
22:53:03  I want numbers too
22:53:14  (write-to-string x :escape nil :case :downcase)
22:53:41  numbers, strings, and symbols (but if symbols, I want them downcased for the printed output to avoid TOO MUCH INTENSITY)
22:53:45  you might name it after its intended use, since the particular behavior want is rather arbitrary
22:55:12  princ-with-downcased-symbols ?
22:55:47 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving]
22:55:53  humanize-output?
22:56:20 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:56:27  ah, that's shorter, and expresses the underlying idea
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22:56:43 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
22:58:27  if that's intended for printing anyway, you can just use PRINC or ~a everywhere and just bind *print-case* to :downcase at the top
22:59:56 -!- mklappstuhl [~martin@e179015090.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
23:02:19 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
23:02:41  does *print-case* only effect printing, and not what's actually interned?
23:03:31  it has PRINT in its name, not READ
23:03:38 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-34-42.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
23:03:46  :)
23:04:36  clhs readtable-case
23:04:36  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rdtabl.htm
23:04:40  for the opposite
23:05:55  stassats: that's not a reason, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_acc.htm
23:06:38  a reason for what?
23:06:59  and http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_accb.htm
23:07:01 rvirding [u5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rdnbiiwfhlqwvxin] has joined #lisp
23:07:28  There are variables that have have "READ" in their name but that impact PRINTing.
23:07:51  of course, PRINTing should produce READable output
23:07:59  Fortunately, only variables having "READ" in their name impact reading, but it is not obvious a-priori.
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23:14:41 guymann [~charles@64-252-120-203.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp
23:14:44  hi #lispers :)
23:15:01  hello there
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23:45:22 *Xach* hacks and hacks
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23:54:37 kanru``` [~user@61-228-148-40.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp
23:55:27  at this rate there will be no things for others to hack on
23:55:44 shifty` [~user@114-198-37-54.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp
23:57:00  a risk i'm willing to take
23:57:08  stassats: thanks for your asdf code, it is working nicely
23:57:28  great
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