00:01:05 -!- kennyd- [~comm@93-139-93-84.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:01:19 chu` [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:02:50 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 00:04:06 -!- chu` is now known as chu 00:08:15 -!- lindes [~user@p4FF1C324.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:12:00 sezo: it actually has a problem with qint64 00:13:18 cesar_pinera [~cpinera@c-24-22-118-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:20 oh? 00:13:25 ah! 00:14:11 -!- sickle|afk is now known as sickle 00:15:44 lisp int isn't auto promoted to qint64? 00:18:51 sezo: try my branch, it has marshalling from system-area-pointer* to anything* or anything& 00:20:46 in any case, don't use this to run external programs 00:21:03 sezo: example usage to use cffi blob of points for fast drawing http://paste.lisp.org/display/128850 00:21:37 "no warranty, works for me" etc 00:22:02 bam! turns out the obj-c runtime is open source. 00:22:11 thanks i'll try 00:22:21 sezo: but you can get output with (#_data (#_readAll in)) 00:22:50 stassats yes that works, but it's an interactive process, I need to write one line to stdout then read one from stdin 00:23:07 write one to stdin and read one from stdout even 00:23:51 #_readLine then 00:24:13 but again, you can do that without Qt 00:24:18 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 00:24:27 hmm I missed readLine 00:24:39 yea using Qt stuff for i/o inside lisp process probbaly wrong thing 00:24:54 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 00:25:30 *maxm-* has yet to experiment on that with zmq, and seeing how it inter-operates with both zmq and qt threads inside same process 00:26:46 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:28:53 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:30:03 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-216-42.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:03 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-216-42.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:30:03 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 00:30:18 it works fine with #_readLine. I wish I could do it with pure lisp, but again external-program only works on ccl on windows, with QProcess it works everywhere Qt does 00:31:08 don't use external-program then 00:32:04 *maxm-* never tried qprocess so can't comment 00:34:58 Other than slime.mov, is there a good place to learn to use slime? 00:34:58 what was the minion feature that allowed to send messages to users when they get online called? 00:35:04 Shaftoe: mail? 00:35:10 hah. 00:35:16 i don't know what compatibility libraries people use, i just use sb-ext:run-program and ccl:run-program 00:35:22 minion, memo for Shaftoe: your hair is on fire. 00:35:23 Remembered. I'll tell Shaftoe when he/she/it next speaks. 00:35:25 commonqt doesn't really run well on anything else 00:35:38 hefner: thanks. that's what I needed. 00:35:39 Shaftoe, memo from hefner: your hair is on fire. 00:35:53 sickle: slime manual 00:36:09 Shaftoe: You can use Freenode's MemoServ. 00:36:25 Shaftoe: but better don't use it now 00:36:31 it's all in flux and may get missed 00:36:32 Qt is bad bad bad 00:36:57 there is nothing better 00:36:58 is there anything like !help or !commands for minion? 00:37:25 minion: help 00:37:26 There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms". 00:37:49 stassats: gtk3 00:38:02 in lisp? 00:38:13 -!- robonyankitty [~mechanyan@li125-243.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:38:29 -!- callen [~callen@unaffiliated/callen] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:38:34 minion: what's the difference between gtk3 and Qt? 00:38:35 qt has similar features but longer hair 00:38:45 stassats: make a binding 00:38:52 minion: memos 00:38:53 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``memos''. 00:38:59 fe[nl]ix: i'm not convinced 00:39:00 minion: help memos 00:39:01 To send a memo, say something like ``minion: memo for nick: the memo''. I'll remember the memo for any nick which is the same as the given nick, +/- differences in punctuation, and any nick which is an alias for it, and give it to them when they next speak. 00:39:20 minion: memo for minion: you are a minion 00:39:21 Buzz off. 00:39:27 Clever kid 00:39:35 i need to learn gtk3, write a binding and rewrite all my code to it 00:39:39 nah, ain't gonna happen 00:40:02 even if it's better 00:40:32 (by some arbitrary criterion) 00:40:52 *hefner* didn't even remember they were up to GTK3 now, still runs a desktop straight outta 2003 00:41:11 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41:22 both gnome and kde4 went full retard as far as I'm concerned 00:41:27 hah! 00:41:28 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 00:41:49 i use ion3, it has 3 in its name too 00:41:51 stassats: qt is not a library, it's an application framework which makes it annoying because it expects you to use its stuff for everything from I/O to threads and external processes 00:42:02 if a newly bought 2011 top of the line laptop, runs kde4 slower then 2006 top box runs kde3, something is wrong 00:42:08 fe[nl]ix: i don't do that 00:42:11 fe[nl]ix: someone had to fix posix. =p 00:43:03 2011 is so passe 00:43:39 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-151-84-76.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:43:48 besides, i have no idea why anyone would run KDE or Gnome, or any other DE, regardless of era 00:43:52 its not really qt4 fault, coz individual kde apps are fine.. But new desktop, with new panel and alt-f2 launcher is an athrocity 00:44:19 stassats: they have these nice tools for configuring the network and bluetooth and all that crap. i kind of miss that in stumpwm at the moment. 00:44:19 alt-f2 xterm RET, it freezes for 10 seconds on typing "xterm" part, searching who knows what 00:44:49 it's figuring out ways it can embarrassingly flash pornography on the screen, probably. 00:45:11 maxm-: maybe ask #kde what is wrong. It's very fast for me and I'm not on any 2011 hardware. 00:45:12 madnificent: I use knetworkmanager with stump with no problems.. in xfce4-panel it shows up in systray, and works fine 00:45:23 as is kwallet, kmix and amarok 00:45:27 madnificent: write one in lisp 00:45:44 (i just configure network from console) 00:45:47 madnificent: I use wicd. 00:45:55 maxm-: systray functionality isn't available in stump, i think. 00:46:01 didi: ty 00:46:02 wicd-curses, actually. 00:46:18 madnificent: you can run external panels, like xfce4-panel, gnome-panel, or lxpanel, which all have systray area 00:46:23 one thing is that those little configuration widgets don't necessarily need to be created for a monster environment, but since that's what "user-friendly desktop" distributions use, most such tools are for those 00:46:42 madnificent: just C-t ! xfce4-panel, or gnome-panel and see what happens 00:46:46 there should be a guide for all these little tools whic replace whatever was built specifically for gnome/kde. it'd really help tiling wm's gain ground (or anything less common) 00:46:55 maxm-: it'll always show up, i guess. i don't want that 00:47:29 *madnificent* discovers he has virtually nothing installed from gnome 00:47:43 i guess people considering using tilting wms already know their way around 00:47:46 xfce4 seems he most stable of the 3 00:48:23 stassats: it's annoying. especially for configuring WPA networks or discovering things. this is OT though. 00:48:43 madnificent: I take it you know about floating groups right? 00:48:50 write a wrapper to iwconfig in lisp! 00:49:04 maxm-: yes, but that's only one thing 00:49:16 or in sh :) 00:49:16 stassats: i'm not interested in learning about it 00:49:38 stassats: iwconfig is passé 00:49:44 one has to limit explorations, as you can't just write your own everything 00:50:30 stassats: it was declared obsolete. iw is the new thing 00:50:30 *maxm-* tries to suck it up and use lesser of available evils, until he has no choice 00:50:48 fe[nl]ix: they can declare obsolete whatever they want 00:51:09 ip goes the same way 00:51:26 they will pray ifconfig out of may dead hands 00:52:26 stassats: we're still in april 00:53:00 maxm-: you can't trust people to do that, always have to do everything yourself 00:53:53 well I just not going to comment on that, less I be accused of offending people :-) 00:54:23 didi: thanks for the wicd hint, it looks like a possible solution 00:54:40 unless if was 5th element reference, in which case great, coz everyone loves 5th element 00:54:49 i don't 00:54:54 madnificent: I was happy when I've found it too. 00:55:39 madnificent: Before it, I was doing nmcli work. Not too fun. 00:57:07 *maxm-* seems to be the only one able to live with stump and standard knetworkmanager.. But I use floating group as my main laptop group, since everything is maximized anyway, unlike on desktop 00:57:12 nif_ [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 00:57:28 -!- nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:00:32 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 01:00:36 -!- nif_ [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:41 nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 01:15:05 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 01:15:56 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:20:59 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B898.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:26:00 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@94.144.63.7] has joined #lisp 01:29:19 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 01:35:42 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.83.156] has joined #lisp 01:35:50 -!- c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.64.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:36:41 prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-5f75f258.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:16 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:38:28 -!- sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: quit] 01:40:03 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0101b7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:41:02 sty_ [~quassel@66.49.228.117] has joined #lisp 01:44:38 -!- da_tash [~tash@unaffiliated/el-tash/x-7763973] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:45:03 lando [~lando@c-98-254-147-186.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:17 jake__ [~jake@63.249.57.43] has joined #lisp 01:53:08 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:53:24 Kron [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has joined #lisp 01:54:38 Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #lisp 01:55:05 Has anyone used Parenscript ( http://common-lisp.net/project/parenscript/ ) for the JavaScript component of their web app? 01:56:05 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:57:01 -!- anonus [anonymous@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:2cc7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:57:14 -!- CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:00:31 -!- jollyG [~JollyG@cpe-075-176-001-037.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:00:35 Aethaeryn: I see a lot of talk about it on twitter and elsewhere but not much here on #lisp 02:00:43 stassats: https://github.com/xach/qlmapper 02:02:12 Xach: Okay, I guess I'll just have to try it and see if it works. 02:03:08 pretty sure it works and is actively used and developed 02:04:13 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:08:19 CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:19:40 Aethaeryn: I'm told i works very well, but I haven't used it myself. 02:19:50 s/i/it/ 02:22:46 Parenscript seems like a great idea. I've read elsewhere that javascript might be the assembly language of the web. 02:26:39 didi: How is it "the assembly language" of the web? 02:27:11 schmx: Every browser only speaks JavaScript, so you need to use it. However, it's not necessarily a good idea to code in JavaScript directly. 02:27:24 So there's dozens of "compile to JavaScript" projects, such as CoffeeScript and Parenscript 02:27:48 They all promise to write better JavaScript than you could write by hand. 02:28:11 schmx: What Aethaeryn said. 02:29:04 flipout [~user@75-175-116-90.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:17 I wonder if in 20 years "compiling to C" and "compiling to JavaScript" will have almost completely replaced "compiling to assembly" 02:32:34 In new languages, I mean. Obviously C can't compile to C. :-P 02:34:00 Aethaeryn: Of course it can. :^) 02:34:27 "Write crappy C and have this compiler compile better C for you before compiling it." 02:34:41 That could be an interesting niche. :-P 02:34:51 Aethaeryn: Or write C99 and compile to C89. 02:35:24 Aethaeryn: Or to a optimized, highly unreadable, C. 02:35:43 C is not a particularly good language for optimization. 02:36:02 I'd put my money on javascript. 02:36:17 Whats wrong with C89? 02:36:28 Pointers. 02:36:33 Pointers are awesome 02:36:40 What is a pointer in C? 02:36:45 A memory location 02:36:52 Wrong. 02:36:53 I think what we need to do is write a program that compiles C to JavaScript and a program that compiles JavaScript to C, and then we should write something in one of the languages, and keep back-and-forth compiling it, for, say, 20 iterations. 02:37:04 A pointer in C is an index into an array. 02:37:10 Which is a location in memory. 02:37:33 If you want to argue about semantics I guess that makes you cool and gives you programmer street credit but I don't really care 02:37:35 sickle: Not necessarily. Consider char b[3]; b + 3. 02:37:46 Zhivago: Yes yes I know how it all works 02:37:59 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-98-92-29.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:59 sickle: Why is b + 4 undefined? 02:38:23 define 'undefined'. 02:38:50 sickle: See the C specification. b + 4 has undefined behaviour. 02:38:59 Yes of course, because it could be anything. 02:39:09 Why is b + 3 well defined? 02:39:21 because it was included in the array 02:39:37 Which element of the array does b + 3 address? 02:39:55 Haha you got me there 02:40:12 That's the problem with C. Most programmers think that they know it. 02:40:29 b[3] = b[0], b[1], b[2] 02:40:58 That's a good feature though. If not you would say "I need forty slots, so let me make b[39]" and that really doesn't make sense. 02:41:04 The problem with pointers is that while they're indexes into arrays, it is rarely practical to carry information about what array they're indexes into around. 02:41:14 What's a good feature? 02:41:16 please take it to ##c. 02:41:31 Zhivago: Do you mind if I /msg you? 02:41:46 Feel free. 02:44:19 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-98-92-29.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:51:13 -!- conntrack [~tor@pdpc/supporter/professional/conntrack] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:52:37 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:11 -!- nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:54:45 nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 02:56:50 c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.238.19.209] has joined #lisp 02:57:00 dylanvee [~dylan@cpe-98-149-161-76.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:57:57 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.83.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:58:09 Hello! University student taking an AI class here, very excited to be learning Lisp. Could anyone help me learn why (equal (car ('foo)) 'foo) returns nil? I'd expect it to be true. 02:58:14 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:58:16 -!- nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:59:15 oops, that should have been (equal '(car ('foo)) 'foo) 02:59:32 darn, third time's the charm: (equal (car '('foo)) 'foo) 02:59:46 dylanvee: what does (car '('foo)) evaluate to? 03:00:02 Xach: 'foo 03:00:08 dylanvee: what does 'foo evaluate to? 03:00:14 foo 03:00:17 there ya go 03:00:18 :P 03:00:28 'foo is a list of two elements, QUOTE and FOO 03:00:31 Xach: I guess I don't fully understand whether 'foo or foo it the atom, then 03:00:33 FOO is just FOO 03:00:44 FOO is FOO 03:00:50 'FOO == (QUOTE FOO) 03:00:55 Xach: Ahh, that's right, I forgot that 'X is shorthand for (quote x) 03:01:13 and at that point you know (quote x) =/= (x) 03:01:33 Using == like that is problematic, since == operates on values, and the value of 'FOO is FOO. 03:01:48 Zhivago: == was supposed to be EQUAL 03:02:12 but if I wrote "'FOO EQUAL FOO" it might not have been clear but I figured since dylanvee knew we were using EQUAL it'd be okay 03:02:51 EQUAL operates on values, too. 03:02:57 I didn't say it didn't. 03:03:01 -!- CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:03:10 Thanks, guys :) 03:03:19 But you're talking about unevaluated things. 03:03:24 Lisp really is cool :) Looking forward to fully understanding it more 03:03:30 dylanvee: enjoy! 03:03:38 That's why it's a kind of mixed metaphor at best. 03:03:56 -!- 36DAA2WSX [brambles@79.133.200.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:04:12 Is that a bad thing? Well at that point its your opinion 03:05:06 -!- Kron [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 03:05:19 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:05:22 Kron_ [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has joined #lisp 03:05:23 Once again the inability to spell "it's" demonstrates its value as a signal of quality. 03:06:01 while on the topic, is #'quote an intrinsic? 03:06:20 what's an intrinsic? 03:06:21 What does 'an intrinsic' mean? 03:06:29 let me rephrase as: 03:06:36 what is the meaning of "special operator" ? 03:06:53 One that cannot be expected to be decomposed by a code-walker. 03:07:03 Or rather, one whose forms cannot be ... 03:07:23 Shaftoe: pretty much means the form won't follow standard evaluation. 03:07:29 Clearly Zhivago is a symbol of the attitude that makes people despite the lisp community 03:07:31 Shaftoe: see http://l1sp.org/cl/3.1.2.1.2.1 03:07:49 right. that's what I was trying to figure out the other day: it shows as a function, but there's no way to make a function do what it does. 03:07:50 Guess what, I can throw in an apostrophe whenever I want and I know what is or is not correct, but I don't care 03:08:00 so I just assumed it was part of hte bootstrapped language. the bare necessities. 03:08:15 sickle: Do you despite things often? 03:08:43 Shaftoe: quote isn't a function. 03:08:56 Zhivago: That depends. Do you consider morphology using apostrophes as grammar or as spelling? 03:08:56 inspecting it in sbcl says it is. 03:09:16 The proper programming answer is "yes." 03:09:29 -!- stickycake [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has quit [Quit: stickycake] 03:09:41 pkhuong: it's clearly not a compiled functiona s we understand it, but that I knew. But what it definitely isn't is a macro 03:09:54 so I was wondering how it did what it did to its variables. 03:10:13 Shaftoe: it's not a function. Arguments to functions are evaluated. 03:10:32 Shaftoe: How are you inspecting it? 03:10:45 (inspect 'quote) 03:10:45 sickle: If you despite things often depends on if you consider morphology using apostrophes as grammar or spelling? 03:10:54 Shaftoe: there's something in the symbol's function slot; you can try to call it and see what happens. 03:11:14 Zhivago: try baiting the easily baited elsewhere. 03:11:22 Zhivago: That is correct. 03:11:22 Shaftoe: It's implementation defined crud. 03:11:23 and also #'quote => # 03:11:32 sickle: You might want to look up what "despite" means. 03:11:32 Xach: Does that make you feel cool? 03:11:33 Shaftoe: see http://l1sp.org/cl/function 03:11:44 Shaftoe: #'quote is something different... try maybe (describe 'quote) or something. 03:11:47 sickle: If you'd like to engage with Zhivago, do it with private messages. 03:11:50 Zhivago: yes, I understand now. 03:12:07 Shaftoe: particularly "An implementation may choose..." 03:12:32 Xach: Thank you for the offer, yet I see a really obnoxious social situation unfolding. He opens a conversation, yet you ask me to take it elsewhere. While I will of course respect your wish, I just find it an interesting concept. 03:13:09 sickle: Zhivago likes to go off on tangents in areas of his expertise, and people who engage him on topics of his expertise do it at their peril. He does not often discuss Common Lisp here. 03:13:24 So, just don't go for it. 03:13:54 But please do look up what "despite" means and learn how to spell "it's". 03:14:13 schmx: (describe 'quote) gives a better answer, yes. 03:14:20 Zhivago: You never answered my question. 03:15:07 sickle: Which question? 03:15:20 Do you consider morphology using apostrophes as grammar or as spelling? 03:15:29 so to sum up, would it be fair to say that quote is part of the bare metal that makes the langage? i.e. that it's actually part of the bootstrapped implementation and is likely written in C? 03:15:41 sickle: Troll elsewhere, please. 03:15:53 shaftoe: Yes. 03:16:00 Shaftoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhb.htm will tell you all about #' 03:16:29 Shaftoe: You mighe be interested in 'minimal compilation' semantics of CL. 03:16:29 Shaftoe: it doesn't exist. Quote is pure syntax; it simply changes whether a sexp is treated as literal data or as code. 03:16:38 and all special forms are so? or some subset is required? 03:16:50 Shaftoe: Are you using emacs+slime? It's quite easy to find the source definition for QUOTE then. in sbcl it's not C for sure. 03:16:50 Shaftoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/03_bbb.htm 03:17:01 Xach: When he gets out of his area of expertise does he usually jump to the "troll" excuse? 03:17:19 -!- cesar_pinera [~cpinera@c-24-22-118-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: cesar_pinera] 03:17:24 Zhivago: thanks. 03:17:31 Shaftoe: Minimal compilation turns CL code into the 'bare metal of the language'. 03:17:37 (Which is still CL) 03:18:01 sickle: Oh, you're well within my area of expertise. You're just trolling. 03:18:11 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:18:59 Shaftoe: M-. in slime will get you to whereever things are defined in lisp source. In SBCL it's mostly lisp. A little bit of assembly. 03:19:15 DuVaul [~DuVaul@pool-108-15-78-245.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:27 Zhivago: The reason I think you're unintelligent is because when I asked you a question, you didn't answer. Instead you called my action trolling. If it is trolling, let's just pretend for a second and go along with it. Do you consider morphology using apostrophes as grammar or as spelling? 03:19:52 Shaftoe: of course the assembly is all lisp too ;) 03:20:13 schmx: thanks. checking it out. Btw, was aware that #' was a function designator. My point was just that calling inspect on the symbol seemed to show a function... but I knew that didn't make sense. I was trying to understand what was underneath 03:20:18 sickle: That's nice. 03:20:32 Stay classy Zhivago 03:20:46 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 03:20:53 I'm not leaving. 03:21:09 Shaftoe: If you have SBCL, M-. on sb-eval::%%eval might be interesting, too. 03:21:31 I do. but don't have the source files. I'm getting that right now. 03:21:55 Xach: eval is interesting because I'll see how it does it, I take it? 03:22:30 https://github.com/nikodemus/SBCL/blob/master/src/code/full-eval.lisp#L1003 03:22:43 Shaftoe: you can see that special forms are basically special cases in the evaluator 03:22:54 -!- DuVaul [~DuVaul@pool-108-15-78-245.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 03:22:58 Shaftoe: how are numbers evaluated? 03:22:58 QUOTE being one of the special cases 03:23:04 (or compiled?) 03:23:58 pkhuong: that's kind of a trick question because it depends on the inital question "what is quote" 03:24:05 Shaftoe: If you find all this veryvery interesting there's a book by the name of Lisp In Small Pieces that's all about implementing lisps. iirc it uses the same method for special forms as SBCL does (ie. CASE). 03:24:07 -!- dnolen [~user@p72-0-226-118-static.acedsl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:24:18 Lisp in Small Pieces is a nice book 03:24:45 Xach: you're right, btw. %%eval totally answers everything. 03:25:05 To paraphrase the matrix: "there is no quote", is the answer. 03:25:06 =) 03:25:13 Shaftoe: absolutely not. There's no need to quote numbers. Quote is only a signal to the compiler or evaluator to consider the second element of that form as a literal value. Quote isn't "implemented" because it's never executed; it's pure notation. 03:25:17 hrs [~textual@ip-128-239-135-42.v4.wm.edu] has joined #lisp 03:25:25 There is quote; it is part of the language's evaluation mechanism. 03:25:33 There is no quote function. 03:25:52 pkhuong: was referring to: Some objects, called self-evaluating objects, do not require quotation by quote. 03:25:54 file:///Users/memet/Development/Lisp/HyperSpec/Body/s_quote.htm 03:25:58 whops. 03:26:09 strike leading edge. 03:26:48 so I guess the answer you were looking for is tha it's evaled? 03:28:20 Shaftoe: rather that numbers are treated as literal values, instead of compiling or interpreting them as lisp code. 03:35:31 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:36:30 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:37:58 gents, this vass fery informativ. I thank you all and bid good night. 03:40:09 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:41:33 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@modemcable037.54-22-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe] 03:44:18 nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 03:44:58 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:50:49 rking [rking@unaffiliated/rking] has joined #lisp 03:51:55 Hrm. I'm configuring devilspie (which says its file is "s-expressions"), and trying to define a function (for sport, and also because it will clean up my config file a bit). When I try my best guess, it says: Error in parsing: Unknown identifier: defun. Any ideas? 03:52:05 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:52:21 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:53:09 rking: if it ain't CL, it's not great to ask here. in that specific case, i don't think it bundles a lisp that can be extended with new functions, i think it just has a built-in set of patterns it recognizes in s-expressions. but I don't really know more about devilspie. 03:53:54 Xach: I don't understand the dialects well enough to know one way or the other. 03:57:10 rking: I think you'll have better luck going from the manual and building from there rather than trying out stuff that works in other Lisps. 03:57:16 it's not a real language. 03:59:04 Xach: I don't think there are any advanced examples like that in the manual. The config looks lisp-like, so I assumed he used some existing compiler. Maybe he wrote some baby version from scratch for no good reason. 04:00:11 rking: it may very well only include a s-expression parser. 04:00:11 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-199-7.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:00:53 rking: the manual lists all legal operations and defining new ones ain't one of 'em 04:01:25 Xach: K. Thanks 04:02:06 Adios! 04:02:07 -!- rking [rking@unaffiliated/rking] has left #lisp 04:03:54 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1033.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:06:44 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 04:07:19 -!- sickle [~Harrison@pool-108-20-196-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sickle] 04:07:34 lebro [~monx@ool-18bc4a28.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:55 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:14:31 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-199-7.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:19:39 -!- nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:20:43 nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 04:21:00 -!- ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: .] 04:21:50 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.238.18.23] has joined #lisp 04:23:38 -!- c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.238.19.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:26:38 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:28:38 -!- nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:29:59 -!- hrs [~textual@ip-128-239-135-42.v4.wm.edu] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 04:30:29 Guys, you've not left Shaftoes confused enough. You should have mentionned that implementations are allowed to fbind all the symbols in CL. #'quote has an implementation specific meaning and can be called if the implementation fbinds it. 04:31:38 wildnux_ [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:31:56 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:35:33 -!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has left #lisp 04:35:49 -!- sty_ [~quassel@66.49.228.117] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:38:19 pjb: That was mentioned and he appered to grasp it. 04:41:48 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:02 ghuntley [~ghuntley@CPE-60-225-85-11.hhui2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:45:03 kornshell [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has joined #lisp 04:46:13 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.27.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:49:38 jayne [~jayne@freenode/staff/jayne] has joined #lisp 04:59:00 -!- 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[~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:50:09 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:51:44 -!- jake__ [~jake@63.249.57.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:52:57 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-5f75f258.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:53:22 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75f258.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:25 -!- c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.63.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:02:47 Where can I read about the meaning of Self%, Cumul% and Total% of slime-sprof? 07:02:57 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.47.25.185] has joined #lisp 07:03:12 Since they look magical, probably in the source. 07:04:44 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.47.25.185] has quit [Client Quit] 07:04:50 Zhivago: I'm reading http://www.sbcl.org/1.0/manual/Statistical-Profiler.html but I'm getting the impression Total% and Cumul% are rotated. 07:09:26 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:32 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:19:36 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.161.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:20:17 -!- CrazyEddy [~hawkbill@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:26:18 Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #lisp 07:26:47 Xach: I found you! http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3815571 07:27:27 Xach: It's a bit self promoting to say "and there are more libraries that are easier to install than ever before." :-P 07:28:08 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 07:30:11 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 07:30:28 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has joined #lisp 07:33:56 -!- EyesIsMine [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:34:10 "total" is the fraction of time allocated for the function itself and its callees. "cumul" is the fraction of time allocated for this function and all the ones taking more time 07:34:51 dsabanin [~dsabanin@195.208.164.212] has joined #lisp 07:35:16 CrazyEddy [~burghalpe@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 07:36:45 Kryztof: That's what I've read from sbcl's page. But doesn't this seems rotated to you? http://paste.kde.org/454220/ 07:39:25 -!- mgodshall [~quassel@pool-108-36-207-226.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:40:22 -!- clintm [~clintm@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:40:27 cmoore [~clintm@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:38 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-252.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:44:35 Aethaeryn: step up and promote quicklisp so that xach has less work. 07:53:08 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 07:53:43 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Client Quit] 07:54:56 Unfortunately, some of the criticisms about Lisp libraries seem to be valid. I didn't find a GUI one I liked. GUIs seem to be a problem made far more complex than they have to be. 07:55:54 I think I'm going to revise my ideas of utilizing Common Lisp by using a web browser with Parenscript as the UI to a cl server backend, since if GUIs are hard anyway, I might as well do something others might find useful. 07:56:24 Aethaeryn: there are bindings for GTK, Tk and Qt. 07:56:33 and there is also Clim 07:56:56 Yes, the GUI problem is probably broader than just Lisp. 07:57:45 What's wrong with those libraries? 07:58:11 Maybe I'm just biased against conventional GUIs all of a sudden. I'm probably not qualified to criticize. 07:58:35 I guess the main issue with the GUI libraries I looked into is that the documentation was weak compared to other languages, but the complexity was the same or greater. 07:58:48 -!- cmoore is now known as clintm 07:58:57 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:59:03 Aethaeryn: ltk is nice and simple (but not extenisve) 07:59:08 Yeah, that's the problem. 07:59:18 It's simple xor potential for future greatness. :-P 08:00:17 Anyway, it's a matter of taste. 08:00:18 Aethaeryn: well, I didn't try Tk, but cl-gtk2 and CommonQt are just bindings, you can follow the C tutorials with some minor changes. 08:00:37 Writing a GUI within a browser seems to be more... cutting edge, sexy, challenging in a good way. 08:01:07 daimrod: Yes, that's probably true. I guess I wasn't creative enough in my googling. 08:01:40 I probably should've come back to #lisp closer to when my searches failed 08:03:40 Anyway, I think Parenscript + cl on the server could be a better solution, although it might ultimately be harder. 08:04:01 That way no one knows that they're using Lisp. >:D 08:04:12 For some reason... people are afraid of it. 08:05:24 it depends on your users, but most people don't give a fuck about what's under the hood. 08:05:53 Well, yeah. But it also makes portability easier. I just write it for sbcl on Fedora 16, my server. 08:06:36 sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 08:07:58 if you write a web apps you aren't targeting an OS but a browser or set of browsers. 08:08:05 -s 08:09:02 Well, yes, I'm targetting two browsers (Webkit and Firefox, you can forget IE if you're doing anything interesting) instead of four OSes and half a dozen cl implementations 08:09:34 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-19.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:10:13 I was probably never going to test it on dozens of possible configurations for just a toy 'learn something' project, but at least I can get away with it if the GUI is Firefox or Chrome 08:11:48 snearch [~snearch@f053012220.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:12:01 And not having to test it in a million different ways might motivate me to actually turn it into something useful 08:12:36 Aethaeryn: Just make something useful for you personally. 08:13:07 I intend to. 08:13:40 Which is why portability of web coding is a good thing, because I probably wouldn't care about anyone else's setup if it was just a desktop program. 08:17:12 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 08:19:07 Athaeyrn: Yes. I have difficulty justifying not using html5. 08:19:35 -!- arvindc [~arvindc@180.151.57.242] has left #lisp 08:20:28 My nick's a good test on if you use tab completion or not >:D 08:21:40 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:23:00 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:23:36 Zhivago: Do you have any favorite libraries you use? 08:23:59 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:24:05 The ones I find on IRC tend to be more lightweight and fun than the ones I find on Google. 08:24:17 Popular != best. 08:25:50 Athaeryn: No. Lately I don't have much time for lisp. 08:26:01 When I do, I'd like to build something like X11 done right. 08:26:12 (Displaying via html5) 08:26:24 Displaying to the desktop via HTML5? 08:26:30 Actually, server-sent-events make a lot of this much easier. 08:26:32 Sure. 08:26:39 You probably should make time for that, then. It's a common idea. 08:26:50 Send widgets to the desktop and have them communicate high-level events back to you. 08:27:02 It's the obvious future, so obvious that I don't know of anyone who is attempting it, but everyone thinks it's inevitable. 08:27:05 e.g., "I was pressed" rather than "mouse-click at x, y" 08:27:19 - 08:27:33 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host187-229-dynamic.3-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:28:43 Zhivago: It would be amazing if you could do it. 08:28:48 I'd use it. 08:28:48 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:29:53 I think there's more demand than you think. 08:29:54 It shouldn't be particularly difficult. 08:30:02 Why don't you give it a try? 08:30:24 Posterdati [~tapioca@host187-229-dynamic.3-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:30:51 I have too many programs I need to write already. 08:30:58 Ah well. :) 08:31:49 -!- kornshell [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/skulls] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:31:53 Aethaeryn: have a look at the MacOS Toolbox, it's so simple! Rewriting it in CLOS would make it even simplier. http://www.pagetable.com/?p=50 08:33:16 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:33:32 pjb: Thanks! IRC is a source of so many ideas! 08:33:48 I need to finish some projects I've started, though 08:34:26 I guess that's one of the advantages people claim Lisp has that is making me learn Lisp 08:34:56 -!- lebro [~monx@ool-18bc4a28.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:37:31 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host187-229-dynamic.3-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:41:05 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053012220.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:42:49 Oh whoops, I forgot to state the advantage. The advantage is power. http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html 08:43:46 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.136] has joined #lisp 08:48:00 auganov [~auganov@83-238-146-241.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #lisp 08:51:55 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 08:59:47 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:01:09 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 09:01:35 *maxm-* is still not convinced javascript stuff is right for fat apps 09:02:48 every serious attempt I seen to write a fat app using extJS and such, toy examples look great, but as it grows in functionality it magically grows into memory and cpu sucking pig 09:03:59 even google guys with all the resources thrown in, and yet google plus and gmail are kind of slowish, and spike CPU to 100% for seconds on simplest tasks in firefox, and what g+ and gmail are doing is trivial, comparing to functionality custom apps require 09:04:37 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:04:46 simularly ever "web trading" platform from ever broker ever is a joke.. TD ameritrade latest attempt is done entirely in flash, and its still a slow joke 09:06:20 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:07:13 cheezypoofs [~rtaylor@69.172.160.67] has joined #lisp 09:10:54 Posterdati [~tapioca@host187-229-dynamic.3-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:13:29 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:13:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-19.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:14:22 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 09:14:44 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:15:38 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 09:16:12 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 09:19:31 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: Out of this 3D] 09:23:50 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.45.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:28:34 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:30:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-6.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:31:02 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:32:00 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ddjzfavprcbqzqhx] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:32:16 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 09:32:44 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:33:02 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.95.1] 09:38:17 Guthur [~user@host86-151-84-76.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:42:02 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:43:18 it's somewhat sickening that Creative turned OpenAL proprietary and then just abandoned it 09:44:18 I certainly hadn't much love for Creative before I learnt that but that's just nasty 09:44:23 sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has joined #lisp 09:44:46 why is that? 09:44:58 you can still take old sources and do whatever you want 09:45:48 oops wrong channel 09:45:56 that was meant for #lispgames 09:46:15 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:46:30 stassats: yeah I think that's what OpenAL Soft has done 09:48:10 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-raerqafhskbgrczk] has joined #lisp 09:48:50 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:53:06 a bit unusual for SBCL to not have had a release in so long 09:53:45 there are some test failures 09:54:12 and release managers were slacking a whole month 09:54:25 (because there was not much changes) 10:00:45 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 10:01:54 borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:41 benny [~benny@i577A1686.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:11:59 what was it that Xach called it? The Teclo vortex 10:12:24 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 10:12:32 are you spinning? 10:16:41 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:19:19 constantly 10:19:32 sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 10:20:57 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:54 fasta [1334259@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 10:22:11 -!- dsabanin [~dsabanin@195.208.164.212] has quit [Quit: dsabanin] 10:23:27 Why exactly is a (let ((x 1) (b 2) (+ x b) better than let x 1 b 2 + x b? 10:23:31 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0A8D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:23:47 fasta: one is lisp and one is not 10:23:56 Guthur: and what is good about the parens? 10:24:07 It seems redundant and therefor useless. 10:24:10 what is good about trolls? 10:24:12 one is lisp and on is not 10:24:30 Guthur: you already said that. 10:24:45 fasta: sorry it seemed you did not hear the first time 10:25:18 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:25:55 Guthur: and why is Lisp better? 10:26:01 -!- MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:26:05 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Kryztof 10:26:10 sorry i need to do something more worthwhile 10:26:14 kill some weeds 10:26:23 -!- Kryztof has set mode +b *!1334259@xs8.xs4all.nl 10:26:23 -!- fasta [~user@81.174.155.115] has been kicked from #lisp by Kryztof (not interested, thanks) 10:26:36 -!- Kryztof has set mode -o Kryztof 10:26:57 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 10:27:22 sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 10:27:27 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 10:27:34 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 10:30:28 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.42.8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:38:04 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:38:40 -!- 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[~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:50:18 Shaftoe [~Moe111@modemcable037.54-22-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 12:50:32 bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:2420:ea0:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has joined #lisp 12:51:44 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: [ Close the World, Open the nExt ]] 12:55:44 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.238.44.79] has joined #lisp 12:55:53 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BC39.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:02 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-011.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 13:00:03 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:02:47 [SLB] [~slabua@host85-170-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:03:01 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host85-170-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 13:03:01 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 13:09:37 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-115.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:11:38 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 13:13:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:20:52 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:21:34 francogrex [~user@109.130.86.82] has joined #lisp 13:22:28 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:23:00 for those who were following the ramblings on yesterday on how to bridge to cocoa, I have found my gordian's knot! wohoo 13:24:27 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 13:26:31 Yay 13:27:41 Kvaks [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 13:28:45 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 13:31:00 stickycake [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:32:44 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:34:58 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 13:38:16 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-30-32.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:45 Xach: yay, indeed. =) I'm actually excited. This'll theoretically open up access to all frameworks that apple offers. that's a lot of stuff 13:41:13 Xach: are you curled in a dark corner already? 13:42:23 heh. I don't see how this can be construed as a Bad Thing 13:42:25 [SLB] [~slabua@host85-170-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:42:26 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host85-170-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 13:42:26 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 13:42:29 shizzy0 [~user@132.198.8.36] has joined #lisp 13:43:44 c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.5.239] has joined #lisp 13:45:09 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.238.44.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:45:15 stassats: so will this affect everyone all the time? 13:45:30 i didn't have any problems with it 13:45:34 me neither 13:45:37 but i haven't restarted 13:46:04 i did restart 13:48:08 so is the knot cut or just identified? :-) 13:48:20 (I guess that was to Shaftoe) 13:48:38 stassats: whether i curl up depends on how many people it affects and how easy it is to work around for 30 days 13:49:18 rmz__: I have a knife in hand, as we speak. The knot is definitely identified. 13:49:20 committing a fix 13:49:42 rmz__: I am actually coding this instant, so you may have an answer in a few hours. 13:50:06 Weee ;) 13:50:26 which lisp are you working in (or will it be available on multiple lisps?)? 13:51:55 i don't know why i didn't have an error 13:51:58 let me try again 13:52:12 (nevermind, use your time to hack instead of answering me, it's a better time to spend it anyway ;) ) 13:52:38 rmz__: I'm actually working from bare C. Right now, I'm in the process of determining if just loading the objective C runtime is sufficient for it to bootstrap. I already know that C++ "doesn't work that way", what with exceptions etc. I'm just seeing if objc does. 13:52:55 rmz__: then I need to load the Foundation framework, again, using sticks and stones. 13:53:01 ok 13:53:03 rmz__: if these two steps work, then we're golden 13:53:10 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.86.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:53:12 Thanks for the report, carry on ;) 13:53:20 rmz__: sir, yes sir!! 13:53:22 =) 13:53:47 Shaftoe: yes, the Objective-C run-time is just a C library. 13:53:47 sigh. I'm getting old. The default font size for all IDE's is always too small for me. 13:54:10 Shaftoe: it's known since 1980. 13:54:19 pjb: yes, but there's a bunch of intialization that needs to occur, I'm taking. I'll report back in a bit. 13:54:29 err, 1981. 13:54:31 pjb: iow, it can't be "that easy" 13:54:45 -!- stickycake [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: stickycake] 13:54:51 Xach: maybe it depends on the age of emacs 13:55:03 Sure. It's just a Smalltalk-like object system implemented in C, with a front-end to add some syntactic sugar. 13:55:14 I live in the Age of Emacs 13:55:30 teggi [~teggi@113.172.42.8] has joined #lisp 13:56:30 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:57:38 -!- Phooodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:57:55 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:39 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 13:58:44 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 13:59:07 pjb: are you familiar with the internals of that runtime? 14:00:33 tsuru```` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-30-31.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:48 -!- tsuru```` is now known as tsuru` 14:00:51 optikalmouse [~user@76.9.199.178] has joined #lisp 14:01:13 somebody should test slime on multiple emacs version 14:01:23 where {me} is not a subset of somebody 14:01:27 stassats: sorry that sounds too sane ;p 14:01:43 would you need multiple VMs for this? lol 14:01:47 no 14:01:54 why would anyone? 14:02:04 no idea 14:02:17 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-30-32.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 14:02:26 oh, I see, run different emacs from different installs using the default .emacs? 14:02:43 stassats: I've often wondered how best to test slime 14:02:55 optikalmouse: don't need to install them 14:03:17 Xach: i've used "let the users try it" before quicklisp came around and nobody uses CVS anymore 14:03:54 ingrates 14:04:53 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@203.246.204.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:05:09 but even if you gather all emacs versions, all implementations and multiple versions of implementations, there should be somebody with some bizarre conifugration 14:06:23 maybe there should be quicklisp beta testers? 14:06:25 pnq [~nick@AC833795.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 14:08:32 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 14:08:56 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:09:16 That would be cool. 14:10:07 *Xach* watches the project updates flow in 14:10:53 stassats: I would be happy to run regression tests if it was really really easy. 14:11:25 what kind of testing would be needed? 14:11:58 Shaftoe: I knew the API. GNUstep and Apple ObjC runtimes differ, and Apple latest runtimes diverge. 14:12:15 But the principle is the same, the core of the API should be the same. 14:12:34 pjb: yes, the good news is that the apple stuff is becoming more stable and open. (better documentation, easier access) 14:12:46 Shaftoe: It's also quite well documented on developer.apple.com 14:12:48 Xach: M-x slime-run-tests 14:13:02 (i don't remember how many years ago was the last time i ran them) 14:13:05 pjb: specicially though, do you know for certain if just loading the library is sufficient, or if there are initialization routines that need to be run at specific times 14:13:06 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:13:14 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:19 apple is one of the biggest "steal your shit, and make money with it" offenders.. /me wondering if original khtml developers made any money off their work 14:13:20 Kron_ [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has joined #lisp 14:13:33 pjb: that question is very specific. I'm asking if you know for certain. Because while I have my informed guesses about it, I still have to try it all out. 14:13:34 Shaftoe: I never saw any initialization routine, just loading the objc runtime should be enough. 14:13:57 (That should also run the initialization routines of the library). 14:14:09 morning 14:14:31 pjb: yes, I'm going off of that assumption too. Alright, back to coding. The tricky bit is that if you have an image that is "bare", it's very hard to see if it loaded right. IT's all just a dark room unless you have access to the runtime... 14:14:32 catch 22 14:14:48 Shaftoe: you may check the sources of ccl. 14:15:01 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 14:15:22 pjb: I have run through that in a cursory fashion, and have concluded that it is most likely done at compile time. Which is an easy feat. 14:15:44 I say most likely, because I did not read and understand 200 kilobytes of code ina single day 14:16:21 I mean, check what they do to initialize the ObjC Runtime. 14:16:59 There's something, the @"" notation calls up a specific class, which can be initialized to whatever you want. 14:17:22 tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.161.121] has joined #lisp 14:17:28 pjb: yes, and what I meant is that since their code isn't a package, but built right into the CCL source, it would be absolutely back-handed to not have the linker/build process do that for you. 14:18:10 but no fret. It's all in the queue. 14:18:19 my brain has low bandwidth 14:18:23 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-93-84.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:21:19 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-129-203.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 14:22:51 -!- pnq [~nick@AC833795.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:23:08 it really is fascinating how google searches really reflect the state of the art, more than what is searched for. Searching for "bare metal" or "ground up" for topics like C or C++ returns what one expects, whereas the same searches for ObjectiveC return beginner guides and "ObjC for dummies" guides. 14:24:34 Xach: so, it's emacs 22 14:25:02 kanru`` [~user@61-228-148-40.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:38 maybe quicklisp should have rolling updates for critical fixes 14:26:09 because it's apparent that this won't be the last time such a thing happens 14:26:28 It better be! 14:26:46 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.47.209.143] has joined #lisp 14:26:53 or else what? 14:27:15 hrs [~textual@ip-128-239-135-42.v4.wm.edu] has joined #lisp 14:27:20 Or else I will cry. 14:27:36 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-116-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:23 -!- blackwol` is now known as blackwolf 14:28:55 i guess i'm one the few left using code from source control, but i'm too lazy to update them daily, so you can drop me a line before the QL release to test things 14:29:44 stassats: would it have caught the emacs 22 issue? 14:29:52 nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 14:30:16 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:30:48 i may consider getting emacs 22 and 23 14:31:04 and even xemacs 14:31:17 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:31:35 and 21, /me shivers 14:32:22 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-77-61.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:32:23 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-77-61.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:34:20 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-115.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:35:33 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:37:11 just loading and doing a few things shouldn't take much time, and it would've caught that problem 14:40:14 is there a good primer somewhere on proper package management? (i.e. things to do, not do when writing a library for mass consumption) 14:40:16 ? 14:40:47 there's a primer of improper package management 14:41:20 if you're being serious, then I think that's a good start too 14:41:35 Shaftoe: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2010/11/devils-guide-to-quicklisp-projects.html 14:43:11 hah. great. =) 14:43:22 I can see the grief that inspired that post 14:47:29 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:47:34 stassats`: That's awesome. I shall take heed of such advice. 14:48:25 Take heed and don't follow it! 14:48:45 incidentally, none of my projects are in quicklisp 14:48:47 Xach: I ended up writing my own lexer 14:49:04 loke: that seems to be a popular thing 14:49:08 stassats`: slime is yours 14:49:15 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 14:49:20 Greetings lispers 14:49:23 Xach: i mean my own projects 14:49:46 Xach: Well, the lexer turned out to be one of the ugliest pieces of Lisp code I've ever written :-) 14:49:55 Xach: you should add to your list people who name projects after their own names instead ot the topic a thand 14:50:11 in order to ensure one never finds your code. 14:50:20 Behold! 14:50:21 http://code.google.com/p/docbrowser/source/browse/template/parser.lisp 14:50:24 The Shaft theme, for example. 14:51:02 Shaftoe, Shaftow, and Shafto would be a good trio. 14:51:04 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:51:43 loke: (string= (subseq current-line current-position (+ current-position (length *end-code*))) *end-code*) => (string= current-line *end-code* :start1 current-position :end1 (+ current-position (length *end-code*))) 14:51:50 Shaftoe: I do that so I don't mind. 14:51:55 protip 14:52:03 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:52:30 stassats`: thanks. Any help is appreciated :-) 14:52:56 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:53:22 you should use COND instead of IF and PROGN 14:54:01 stassats`: yeah, I should 14:54:06 So I coded up a very uh, crude molecular dynamics simulator yesterday, to try and benchmark it against a c++ version I wrote a while back. 14:54:10 if (null token) return nil => while token 14:54:21 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 14:54:38 Xach: ahh, it's a pet peeve of mine. 14:54:42 stassats`: The last function, PARSE-TEMPLATE-BY-STREAM, is that one correct? I mean, is it the correct way to dynamically generate a compiled function? 14:55:01 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:19 not really 14:55:34 Shaftoe: I try not to do it much any more. 14:55:41 http://pastebin.com/Pw94UTWM 14:55:50 try (compile 'foo '(lambda (x) x)) instead 14:56:09 Ugly code, but if anyone could give me some tips on how to improve it. That'd be awesome. 14:56:12 Bacteria: not a good idea to kill safety like that. Far better to be fast and safe. 14:56:26 Xach: I used to do it too. It's just dirty afterwards. When you have unknown letters peppering your codebase.. .anyhow 14:56:40 Ahh. I don't really understand how the optimise flags work 14:56:54 Bacteria: I'm somewhat interested, but the indentation and formatting is too rough for me to really want to read it, sorry. (If you indent conventionally I still might not understand the code, but maybe someone else will.) 14:57:19 Bacteria: I'll download, audit, and repaste in a minute after I fire off an analysis. 14:57:23 Bacteria: Can't read through the misindentation, but there isn't a single type declaration in there. Everything, arithmetic in particular, will be generic (go through runtime type dispatch). 14:57:23 Shaftoe: surely everyone knows rms, jwz, rpg, and zpb! 14:57:35 Hmm, it looks like pastebin has bastardised the indentation 14:57:45 Xach: are those file formats? 14:57:48 Bacteria: Worse still, you have dangling parentheses. 14:57:50 Bacteria: pastebin didn't put closing parens on their own lines, though. 14:57:51 Xach: right eh? I mean, come on! 14:57:59 jwz and zpb sounds like compression formats 14:58:03 Xach: Indeed that is true 14:58:24 As I said, ugly code. 14:58:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:58:44 Bacteria: also, you seem to be using setf to introduce new bindings (local variables). You want LET. 14:58:50 Ahhh 14:59:04 Bacteria: I recommend reading a bunch of CL code to see how people normally lay it out. 14:59:13 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:59:14 I was reading through a common lisp book and everything was using setf 14:59:19 http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/ is some neat stuff and conventionally formatted. 14:59:27 Awesome! Thanks Xach! 15:00:14 Bacteria: interactively, maybe. Not in functions. 15:00:20 -!- blackwol` is now known as blackwolf 15:00:26 Ahhh, maybe that's why 15:01:02 stassats`: If I COMPILE a lambda form against a GENSYM'ed symbol, will the code be CG'ed when there is no more references to the name? 15:01:21 yes 15:01:25 Good 15:01:48 Another question, are assignments to dynamic variables atomic in SBCL? 15:01:53 pkhuong: I also tried setting types as well, but I didn't notice any changes in speed 15:01:54 loke: you can compile NIL. 15:02:09 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:02:24 loke: special bindings are thread-local; assignment to global symbol-value is atomic. 15:02:52 My goal here is to make my template library as fast as possible, which is also one of the reasons I let the template compile into Lisp code 15:03:00 and right, you can have anonymous functions, but it's better to have a name for debugging purposes 15:03:04 Also, my choice of using a list to contain a struct. Would it have been better to use a vector instead of a list? 15:03:18 pkhuong: do I need to deal with MEMBAR's and stuff after assignment? 15:03:23 Bacteria: better for what? 15:03:27 loke: maybe. 15:03:52 Bacteria: if you're going for pure speed, a struct of array would probably fare best. 15:03:56 Basically, I want the file->template cache to be a hashmap and when I update the cache, I'll copy the hash and add the new element, in order to avoid a global lock on it 15:04:00 there seems to be a project doing what I was looking into doing, but has dropped dead since 2008 15:04:00 Or, is there a better solution? 15:04:03 objective-cl. 15:04:07 anyone hear of this? 15:04:16 Shaftoe: You mean CLOS? 15:04:30 Shaftoe: yes, some guy was working on it but there was some roadblock 15:04:37 *Xach* forgets the details 15:04:39 Shaftoe: i veto it, too confusing 15:04:42 Xach: ach! 15:04:49 pkhuong: Ahhh, I thought as much 15:04:52 stassats`: what's this you veto? 15:05:02 objective-cl 15:05:08 loke: objective-C bridge to lisp 15:05:13 Ah 15:05:24 maybe I should scavenge his stuff 15:05:28 loke: sure, you can do that. N.B. you still need a hash-update lock. I think there's a couple reader-writer lock implementations floating around lisppaste. 15:05:29 Shaftoe: the effort i remember was different 15:05:32 sounds like a dialect of common lisp 15:05:36 not a bridge 15:05:51 name it Golden Gate Objective Lisp 15:05:56 lol 15:05:58 D: 15:06:00 (not really) 15:06:04 you and you're bridge, man 15:06:09 pkhuong: well, if I recreate the hash table on every update (since they are very rare) and simply replace the reference to it, I shoul dbe OK, yes? 15:06:26 pkhuong: as long as I can enforce a MEMBAR between initialising the hash map and the assignment 15:06:33 loke: as long as there's no concurrent update. 15:06:36 I shall propose the very straight forward "CL-ObjectiveC" name. 15:06:53 there already was a verazzano 15:07:00 pkhuong: there isn't. But the question remains, how to deal with membars? 15:07:09 loke: with SBCL's support for membars. 15:07:14 pkhuong: Neat. :-) 15:07:16 CL-Objc being another husk of a project that's been inactive for 5 years 15:07:33 pkhuong: any place in the source code to look at how they're used? 15:07:34 Impartial Common Lisp 15:07:46 loke: M-. on sb-thread:barrier. 15:08:00 pkhuong: thanks 15:08:03 Shaftoe: you could call it pokerchip 15:08:16 Nondiscriminatory CL 15:08:40 pkhuong: nice. Exactly what I needed 15:08:45 nay nay. I shall call it SHAFT-CL 15:08:52 or Desideratum CL 15:08:52 Other lisps will get a mutex instead 15:10:20 loke: a mutex will serialise reads as well. You could use a semaphore and a mutex as a quick read/write lock. Reads take up one token, writes first acquire the mutex, then take all the tokens. 15:10:27 or you can use tunnel instead of bridge, ObjectiveC Lisp Panama 15:10:36 err, canal 15:10:42 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0A8D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:54 so nobody knows of the roadblock Xach mentionned? 15:11:00 pkhuong: Hmm, interesting 15:11:33 well, a tunnel might work too, Pai De CL 15:11:38 pkhuong: I should be able to do that by only touching bordeaux, right? 15:11:43 loke: right. 15:11:53 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:11:53 Shaftoe: something about structure return ABI issues 15:12:14 since objective c uses structure return a lot, or something. 15:12:18 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.26.112] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:12:44 too bad his last diary entry is totally cryptic: http://matthias.benkard.de/objective-cl/JOURNAL.html 15:12:48 stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.26.112] has joined #lisp 15:12:56 it's like the Event Horizon. he disappeared one day 15:13:15 loke: there are other ways that do it directly via mutex/condvar, but some implementations (e.g. CCL) base their concurrency control on semaphores, anyway. 15:14:05 maybe just name it MacLisp? 15:14:21 stassats`: ouch :-) 15:14:22 Xach: heh. looking at his blog, I can see that he started another project with the "Mulk" prefix. 15:14:35 stassats`: that's way beyond what I pretend to be doing here. 15:14:37 Shaftoe: The project I remember was not that project. 15:14:38 pkhuong: But then you'd end up with a single choke point (although short) 15:14:49 *Xach* struggles to remember who was working on it 15:14:59 maybe you're thinking of http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-objc/ 15:15:00 ? 15:16:01 loke: Your implementation's semaphores may well go through such a choke point as well. 15:16:26 sigh. the code is vanished, too. 15:16:31 pkhuong: With the SETF's, if I move everything to a LET. How will this impact on changing the value of a struct? (Sorry if this is just annoying newbie questions) 15:16:56 Shaftoe: don't think so. 15:17:47 Bacteria: introduce new variables with LET, or LET*. Assign to pre-existing variables or places with SETF. 15:17:59 Ahh. Excellent! 15:18:15 Thanks 15:19:33 -!- geek [~geek@unaffiliated/geek] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:19:45 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 15:20:40 -!- nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:23:02 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-319801.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:25:34 mklappstuhl [~martin@e177088071.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:27:09 hey. can anyone point me to a good introduction to lisp from an oop perspective? I want to give it to a 17yrs old friend and most resources I find look like from an old decade 15:27:48 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-12-7.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 15:27:50 minion: please tell mklappstuhl about PCL 15:27:51 mklappstuhl: http://gigamonkeys.com/book 15:27:51 mklappstuhl: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 15:28:18 mklappstuhl: PCL is a fantastic book, and has a couple of chapters on CLOS, Common Lisp's object system. 15:28:39 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-12-7.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 15:29:14 bozhidar [~user@91.202.47.68] has joined #lisp 15:29:18 -!- bozhidar [~user@91.202.47.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:31:28 sykopomp: found that already 15:31:35 I am more looking for a one pager 15:31:48 pnq [~nick@ACA24674.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:31:49 I want him to go through the little schemer 15:32:11 and reading a book like this to start reading "the little schemer" seems overhead 15:32:30 pkhuong: Interesting. Changing the definition of variables from SETF to LET actually sped up the code. 15:33:02 I am more looking for explanations regarding: working with a repl, basic structure of lisp, ... 15:33:51 mklappstuhl: the first 3 chapters of PCL cover that pretty well. 15:34:02 you don't have to read the -whole- book. :) 15:34:10 mklappstuhl: he won't need to read little schemer afterwards 15:34:43 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:34:55 i started learned lisp when i was 17, you don't need kid's books when you're 17 15:35:17 or was it 16, i don't remember 15:35:27 ikki [~ikki@187.193.159.8] has joined #lisp 15:35:37 do you have a grey white beard yet? 15:35:54 no, not yet 15:36:54 *sykopomp* meant to say grey poofy beard or something like that but ended up with two colors instead. 15:37:00 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:37:24 white is more than two colors! 15:38:46 nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 15:39:33 sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 15:39:38 -!- joachifm [~user@ti0150a340-0614.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:05 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-78.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:41:20 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 15:42:13 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:42:26 stassats`: Maybe he does not need to but he's more interested in math than in programming and I think the little schemer provides more mathmatic content in %s 15:42:43 adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:46 sykopomp: Okay, then I'll recommend him to read the 3 chapters first. :) 15:42:47 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 15:45:06 wuqian_ [~wuqian@210.14.142.15] has joined #lisp 15:46:05 -!- wuqian_ [~wuqian@210.14.142.15] has left #lisp 15:46:32 http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm 15:46:42 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-386016.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:46:54 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:07 eni: what about it? 15:47:21 don't know i'm reading it right now and found it kind of interesting. 15:47:45 it's 5 years old, i'm pretty sure many have read it already 15:49:16 probably 15:49:41 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@Lark.price.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:49:48 and i've found it pointless 15:49:55 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-319801.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:50:07 or inspiring! 15:52:02 maybe it can make you feel better about yourself "hey, it's not my fault i failed, it's all this bipolarity" 15:52:59 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-318430.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:53:12 "I'm Donnie Darko! Awesome!" 15:54:09 heh 15:55:39 not sure if there's anyone who sees it like that anyways 15:56:08 -!- kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-386016.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:56:41 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:56:47 -!- nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 15:57:01 maybe the author did 15:57:49 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-386560.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:58:38 nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 15:58:48 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.181] has joined #lisp 16:00:29 stassats`, is he known? 16:00:58 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-318430.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:02:44 eni: well kinda. He's designing this new lisp called shen 16:03:04 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:03:17 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:04:26 he writes new lisp dialects every couple of years 16:07:06 -!- antonv [2e35c394@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:09:11 and they're all The Ultimate Lisp 16:09:14 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 16:09:25 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:09:55 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.43.98] has joined #lisp 16:11:10 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 16:11:17 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-220-73.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:56 Actually, that's not realy true. 16:11:57 -!- wccoder [~wccoder@S01060026f3c6bad7.no.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:11:58 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.42.8] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:12:05 Shen is Qi divorced from CL. 16:12:19 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@87.247.63.68] has joined #lisp 16:12:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:12:23 Basically it is a lisp with the type system implemented in prolog. 16:14:35 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0A8D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:14:39 and 'designing' is a bit off, since he has working implementations. 16:16:50 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:17:05 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:01 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:19:09 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:34 hmm. what comments do people have to "lay on" Doug Hoyte's LOL ? 16:20:00 "meh" 16:20:09 "Reminiscent of the mating call of the common retard". 16:20:09 =) 16:20:14 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-386560.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:20:17 -!- kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-386560.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:20:17 I'll wait for the second edition. 16:20:24 Oh #lisp. you never fail to disappoint. 16:20:26 =) 16:20:49 ok, so... the main thing I must ask is his assertion about the use of CLOS and how it's not always necessary 16:20:58 Obviously true. 16:21:08 I'm looking at this other project, CL-Objc and it makes use of CLOS. I wonder if that's necessary 16:21:28 Shaftoe: you might want to look at CCL 16:21:37 CLOS was retrofitted onto CL. 16:21:46 Some of the bolts are still showing. 16:22:05 oGMo: yes, I have. We've moved past that point atm, though. 16:22:17 Zhivago: e.g? 16:22:51 The types bignum and fixnum. 16:23:23 Shaftoe: i gather you're wanting to make a generalized cl-objc though? ccl is open source, and you might be able to fit it on top of cffi or similar? 16:23:59 Zhivago: but they are types 16:24:03 Array type upgrading is probably another example. 16:24:12 oGMo: the initial observation is that CCL does it magic by integrating the bridge code into the trunk of CCL itself. I want to have a library one can load without having to recompile your image 16:24:18 Zhivago: how are those clos-related? 16:24:33 stassats: They're types that reflect representation choices -- they should logicaly be classes. 16:24:53 so how is that CLOS' issue and not the issue of hte types? 16:25:02 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-011.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:25:27 You asked for an example of where the bolts are showing from where CLOS was bolted on ... 16:25:50 Zhivago: you can't specialize on bignum/fixnum? 16:26:00 oh, I see. 16:26:14 (you can, in sbcl at least) 16:26:17 but what you're saying is that CLOS should be more pervasive, not less. 16:26:31 Systems are permitted to provide classes matching those types, but not required to do so. 16:26:42 oGMo: they are types, you can't specialize on types 16:26:53 Shaftoe: I'm saying that he's obviously right in that you don't need CLOS. 16:26:54 implementations are allowed to add any number of consistent classes 16:26:57 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-019.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 16:26:59 you shouldn't depend on this fact 16:27:02 sure 16:27:07 Shaftoe: And for a long time lisp got along just fine without it. 16:27:08 add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-49-231.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 16:27:14 roger that. 16:27:20 Shaftoe: As to how pervasive it ought to be, that's a moral issue. 16:27:56 part of getting by without CLOS was using different, pre-CLOS object systems. 16:28:07 One of the nice things about a MOP is that given class-of and callable instances you can bolt it on to pretty much anything. 16:29:31 and what about the closure oriented OOP this aforementionned heathen is talking about? Any takers here or shall we burn him at the stake? 16:29:45 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 16:29:52 sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 16:30:24 So, after a lot of work, something starts to work, and I hear myself saying kplah. Puzzled, I gogole for kplah kinglon, and it means "Success!". Have I watched too many Star Trek episodes last year? 16:30:29 Shaftoe: don't do that. 16:31:06 hefner: any particular reason? some good libraries do do it. 16:34:05 Shaftoe: closure are good for one things, objects and methods are good for others 16:34:30 hmm. this CL-OBJC project seems to do exactly what I need. Now I need to find out why it's derelict like the ship from 2001 16:35:27 Shaftoe: a closure is an opaque blob. unpleasant to debug, and CLOS instances are nicer in terms of letting you recompile methods, add slots, etc. 16:35:51 EN-CAP-SU-LATE! 16:35:57 redline6561: alive? 16:36:19 That siad, if one day you happe to write a program in a lisp that doesn't have clos (eg. in scheme) closures are a nice way to implement an object system. 16:36:22 hefner: yes, that is true. But CLOS really is a giant cannon. Smaller "object oriented" idioms can be done very well with just closures 16:36:37 I'm not about to roll out a closure bases CLOS alternative. 16:36:39 optikalmouse: t 16:36:41 optikalmouse: what's up? 16:36:51 optikalmouse: ah, you wrote me about cl-web-utils 16:36:52 Shaftoe: CLOS is not a giant cannon. 16:36:53 I'm just wondering when the giantness that is CLOS is warranted. Don't have the reflex for tha tyet. 16:37:12 what do you mean by giant? 16:37:12 Shaftoe: You can use useful pieces without using every feature. 16:37:24 optikalmouse: meant to write you an email back today... long story short: it should still work, it isn't being actively developed or maintained, might be interesting for inspiration+experiments thoug 16:37:27 *though 16:37:51 Xach: if I want to give a simple line scanner, it is. A line scanner, using closures *is* object oriented programming on a smaller scale. I find that it's much more appropriate than the way you are forced to do it the traditional way (say, Java) 16:38:31 Shaftoe: It can be not a giant cannon and still not be the best tool for the job. Ditch the pejorative thinking. 16:38:36 -!- clintm [~clintm@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: clintm] 16:39:03 what is object oriented programming? 16:39:04 Xach: point taken. I wasn't saying it pejoratively. Just saying it was overpowered for certain situations. 16:39:16 do you need to find a term to the way you write a program to feel better? 16:39:39 not at all. I need to find a way to think that will make me have a good predicate on whether to use something or not. 16:40:30 redline6561: I want to use it for a hackathon on saturday, I have basically 7 hours to code a web app 16:40:50 Shaftoe: why do you not want to use something overpowered? 16:41:02 redline6561: I'll try cl-web-utils and patch it if necessary so that I dont have to waste hours while at the thing :p 16:41:28 optikalmouse: sounds like a plan. :) 16:41:35 sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 16:42:54 prxq: to answer in a very specific and concrete way: I reading code and debating the usefullness of wrapping every cffi function call to the objc runtime library (which itself is a C library) into a CLOS representation. Is it really necessary, I'm asking myself. I have no answers... 16:43:12 perhaps it is. 16:43:33 does it make the code easier to write and understand? 16:43:37 does it make a better API? 16:43:43 I'm not sure it does... 16:43:51 like I said, I have no answers. 16:43:54 is it composable? extensible? 16:44:14 but the thing that bugs me is why take something and wrap it into a similar looking thing of itself. 16:44:30 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:44:52 does it have to be composable? extensible? The upper layers do, but the bridge layer is touching hard metal (an external library) 16:45:17 Shaftoe: foreign library wrappers using CFFI often have a direct binding layer and then some lispiness on top 16:45:48 somebody has to write the layer, it can be made easier to write 16:45:53 -!- mklappstuhl [~martin@e177088071.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:46:35 this is actually something I've encountered before. and it's interesting because this time around I'm tackling with Lisp... 16:47:49 the issue being: objective C is a runtime library that makes an environment. The functions objc library provides are the tools to operate in the environment. So objc already does the OOP part. So do I need to remake another layer of OO on top of that? IT's an extra layer. 16:48:27 there's no step by step algorithms on how to write and structure programs, luckily, humans have a good pattern recognition abilities, so they can apply different techniques accordingly to the situation and improvise 16:48:58 yes, and what I realize as I get older is the step at which I stop and say "wait a minute, do not go further until you see what this will entail". 16:49:00 minion: advice on indirection? 16:49:00 You can't expect automated advice for everything. 16:49:06 lol 16:49:11 iow I'm becoming laziers. 16:49:13 Shaftoe: i think the idea is to provide a metaclass that exposes objc things as clos things ... the glib/gobject interface does this 16:49:44 Aetheryn: IIRC, weblocks uses parenscript. some of our apps use weblocks and parenscript. 16:50:28 minion: advice 11999? 16:50:28 You are a stupid asshole. Shut the fuck up. 16:50:39 very nice advice, i must say 16:51:02 you can outsource profanities to minion 16:51:19 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.181] has quit [Quit: Offline] 16:52:10 hah. was that meant for me? oh my... 16:52:23 minion: was it meant for Shaftoe ? 16:52:25 Shaftoe: what is ``it''? 16:52:52 minion: was 11999 meant for Shaftoe? 16:52:53 Shaftoe: watch out, you'll make krystof angry 16:53:20 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.133] has joined #lisp 16:53:31 redline6561: cl-web-utils only relies on cl-json, drakma, and that's it right? it doesn't use iterate or alexandria? 16:53:42 stickycake [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has joined #lisp 16:53:46 *redline6561* checks 16:54:23 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has joined #lisp 16:54:28 Shaftoe: one often wraps foreign objects into classes because foreign objects are very brittle. The classes can make them safe to have around, providing additional typing, etc. 16:54:56 It's mostly to support tagging. 16:55:05 And because class-of is inextensible in CL. 16:56:36 Well, apart from using defclass, defstruct, etc. 16:57:39 tagging for REPL friendlieness do you mean? 16:57:51 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.181] has joined #lisp 16:58:03 Tagging for dispatch. 16:58:09 so that your program can tell it apart 16:58:15 Think about how class-of operates. 16:58:47 It mostly decodes low-level tags to identify integers and strings and so on. 16:58:53 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 16:58:58 optikalmouse: just tried it after a year or more of dormancy. still compiles fine. depends are cxml cl-json split-sequence drakma and md5 16:59:05 Some of those are instances, and it then looks up their class slot or whatever, and so on. 17:00:39 optikalmouse: load it up at the repl, describe and play with define-json-request and define-xml-request 17:00:48 (i really should add examples and work on the readme :-/) 17:01:29 mklappstuhl [~martin@e179023202.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:01:59 right, gotcha 17:02:26 that's part of the thing though: objc has its own mechanisms for that. 17:02:38 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:03:06 anyways, point about indirection still stands. I have to figure out more and can't get generic advice. 17:03:44 What point about indirection? 17:05:11 -!- diginet [~diginet@adsl-69-153-135-2.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:06:30 as is known, every problem in computer science can be solved by adding another level of indirection 17:06:33 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA24674.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:06:54 Well, except for P == NP. 17:07:08 redline6561: ok cool 17:07:22 pnq [~nick@ACA24674.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:07:23 Xach: finally found what you were talking about http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cl-objc/darcs/cl-objc/KNOWN_BUGS.txt 17:07:23 Zhivago: P == A == BA == NP 17:07:27 diginet [~diginet@adsl-69-153-135-2.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:30 Maybe you meant 'software engineering'. :) 17:07:52 that's a quote 17:07:57 Zhivago: my point was member:minion: advice on indirection? 17:08:00 member:minion: advice on indirection? 17:08:09 minion: advice on indirection? 17:08:09 You can't expect automated advice for everything. 17:08:14 (damn automated things) 17:08:37 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 17:09:27 stassats`: minion needs a command "tell <#lisp-nick> to be nice to <#lisp-noob>" to which minion responds "<#lisp-nick> had better be nice to <#lisp-noob> or he/she/it might blog ill of #lisp" 17:10:01 minion doesn't think it needs such a thing 17:10:20 thats because minion doesn't read reddit :) 17:10:21 -!- nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10:46 for the record, I am not feeling ruffled by comments being made here. 17:10:52 -!- diginet [~diginet@adsl-69-153-135-2.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:11:25 diginet [~diginet@adsl-69-153-135-2.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-019.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:13:52 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:14:14 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-027.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 17:16:01 So Linux Torvalds thinks it's a bad idea to preallocate a huge amount of VAS for the garbage collector in Go; both SBCL and CCL seem to take that approach as well though; comments? (http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1102.1/00233.html) 17:16:15 er s/Linux/Linus 17:16:54 is he an expert on garbage collectors? 17:17:04 -!- pnathan1 [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:17:33 nope, but he is an expert on the linux kernel, and he claims that changes are comming that will make this a bad idea 17:19:02 sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 17:19:51 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:20:52 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 17:21:56 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:22:07 jasom: mlockall on SBCL's heap doesn't make a lot of sense. Transparent huge pages aren't much of an issue (although a software write barrier would be better suited). Finally, the density/TLB issue Linus mentions doesn't exist for most copying GCs. 17:23:05 Sure, I'd rather have a smarter address->metadata mapping scheme, but there are more practical (fragmented or growable heap, for instance) reasons. 17:23:54 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:24:39 incandenza [~incandenz@ip68-231-126-199.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:30 jasom: go's situation with a non-moving fully-conservative GC is different, to say the least. 17:27:12 pkhuong: yes, that makes sense that a copying GC won't run into issues with transparent huge pages 17:27:25 unless they get really huge, like 512GB 17:28:04 which appears to be CCLs default mapping 17:28:09 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has joined #lisp 17:29:36 nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 17:29:44 jasom: there was a slight slowdown when I played with THP, but mostly because we track writes via mprotect at a ~64-256KB granularity. Initial writes to old (boxed) data wound up going the PTE-splitting logic. 17:30:28 Using the (buggy) software barrier gave us a nice, automagic, 2-5% speed-up. 17:30:46 pkhuong: good to know THP is on your radar at least 17:31:38 also part of it is Go's stupidity at having such a large minimum vsize for the heap 17:32:02 I've run SBCL on vhosts with very small ulimits 17:33:25 how small ? 17:35:13 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.136] has joined #lisp 17:38:21 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-54-102.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:38:25 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:41:12 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:41:35 jasom: Go also wants a larger address space to more easily blacklist addresses that it knows would be confused with integer data. 17:41:47 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 17:42:31 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 17:43:00 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 17:43:13 oh man i can't load any .mac file on my maxima_userdir path after compilation.... 17:43:57 i mean those at compile time in my .maxima/maxima-init.mac get loaded and are found, but when i afterwards add a mac file there and try to load it it fails to find them 17:44:40 tho i added those paths as maxima_userdir and appended those dirs to file_search_maxima too... 17:44:50 so i don't know... 17:45:11 wtfbbq 17:46:37 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:46:38 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA24674.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:46:52 stassats`: M-x slime-run-tests gives me 48 failures with Emacs 23.1.1 and Slime 2012-04-07 from Quicklisp, I don't know what to make of it, if anything. I tried to lisppaste it but it says paste too large. =/ 17:47:18 don't make anything of it 17:47:34 Alrighty then. I thought so. 17:47:36 i don't really care about tests 17:47:44 i never run them 17:48:25 Does anyone have some code for copying an entire directory (dir+contents)? 17:48:29 pnq [~nick@ACA24674.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:48:59 (sb-ext:run-program "cp" '("-r" "directory")) 17:49:14 (on Windows with LispWorks) 17:49:58 -!- nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has quit [Quit: Computer: Shutting Down.] 17:50:07 Qworkescence: I thought I'd seen something in cl-fad's documentation, but nope. 17:50:16 Right, yeah, I checked CL-FAD 17:50:22 Nice, I got to use the "Report spam" feature of lisppaste for the first time. I wonder what it does, specifically. 17:50:45 Qworkescence: (sys:call-system-showing-output '("sbcl" "--eval" "(sb-ext:run-program \"cp\" '(\"-r\" \"directory\")))) 17:51:03 *Fade* chuckles 17:51:04 stassats`, you are a terrible person 17:51:05 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-112.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:51:08 andres__ [~andres@wabis.mda.cinvestav.mx] has joined #lisp 17:51:26 -!- andres__ [~andres@wabis.mda.cinvestav.mx] has quit [Client Quit] 17:52:06 On Winders, I think you want copy or xcopy. 17:52:30 I think I can just end up writing a portable copy-directory 17:52:38 Qworkescence: ported, maybe. 17:52:41 trivial-copy-directory! 17:52:47 RomyRomy [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has joined #lisp 17:52:56 Hexstream: adds to spam section in the administration section 17:53:01 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.181] has quit [Quit: Offline] 17:53:24 stassats`: "Which nobody ever visits!" ? 17:53:34 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-115.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:53:34 you have to ask them 17:53:39 Xach, What do you think would be a problem writing such a thing? 17:53:57 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.193.159.8] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:54:12 Qworkescence: different notions on different lisps for what it means to enumerate all entries in a directorie 17:54:15 directory, rather 17:54:38 Qworkescence: I had to mess with it for quicklisp's directory tree deletion stuff. a bit tedious. 17:54:39 and preserving rights and permissions 17:54:49 does osicat even run on windows? 17:54:59 because with-directory-iterator looks like it could be useful. 17:55:01 stassats: If there are enough spam reports from "apparently trustable" IPs, the paste could be presumed spam and then confirmed to be spam by an admin at a later date... 17:56:13 I can see the preservation stuff difficult. But I can't think of any reason why a naive "copy this directory tree from here to here" would be hard, especially with CL-FAD. Perhaps that's a result of my own ignorance though. 17:56:46 this isn't something that lispworks already provides? 17:57:12 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@87.247.63.68] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:57:18 I want to learn clojure for serious development but I am also generally interested in Lisp, is it worth the time to start with some lisp basics or would the benefit regarding clojure be relatively small? 17:57:36 mklappstuhl: I think it may be sufficient to just learn Clojure on its own terms 17:57:44 mklappstuhl: Same for any other Lispy language. 17:57:49 I agree with Xach 17:58:11 rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has joined #lisp 17:58:13 And don't try to apply what you learn in one to what you learn in another until you are fairly advanced in both. 17:58:37 It's not good to write in Common Lisp like it's scheme or any other language. 17:59:20 Xach: Tell me about it... 17:59:36 clojure is too young and too fast changing for serious development 18:00:16 stassats`, are you sure that's true? After all, there have been books written about it. I somehow doubt they're out-of-date now. 18:00:23 Fade, I can't find anything. 18:00:38 i couldn't run things between 1.1 and 1.2 18:00:49 There aren't many subjects books haven't been written about... 18:00:50 Ah, then maybe it is true. 18:01:18 Hexstream, newlisp 18:01:19 ;) 18:01:33 doing something naive to copy a directory using whatever mechanisms your lisp exposes shouldt be trivial... doing something portable will be more difficult. 18:01:44 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: Zzzz] 18:01:46 s/shouldt/should 18:02:08 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-67-232-182-18.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:13 andresgsaravia [~andres@wabis.mda.cinvestav.mx] has joined #lisp 18:02:23 -!- incandenza [~incandenz@ip68-231-126-199.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 18:02:38 zip, copy-file, unzip 18:02:38 :) 18:03:02 anyhow, lispworks must have some interface to the underlying OS filesystem routines. 18:03:08 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 18:03:29 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:03:30 i've only ever toyed with LW on windows, but if you're using it in anger, you must have access to their reportedly excellent customer support. :) 18:04:06 Fade: It has pretty good FFI, afaik, and packs basic COM interface (Allegro reportedly has more friendly API) 18:04:24 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:04:28 can you copy directory with COM? 18:04:32 directories 18:05:49 I'll lisppaste whatever I hack together 18:06:00 stassats`: probably not in the normal sense, but I wouldn't be surprised if storage management isn't exposed by it (which might include background copies of filesystem structures) 18:06:18 -!- jakky [~jokk@2001:470:33:2::1ce] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:08:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-027.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:08:28 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:08:44 antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has joined #lisp 18:08:45 Xach: Wouldn't it be easier to learn things like CL first since there is much more material out there? 18:08:56 jakky [~jokk@2001:470:33:2::1ce] has joined #lisp 18:09:03 learn CL first, stay with CL 18:09:07 -!- CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:09:25 mklappstuhl: Maybe. But I wouldn't then try to learn Clojure through a CL lens. I'd try to learn Clojure as Clojure users learn and use it. 18:09:28 Or do you recommend to use CL material to learn clojure (does not seem like a complete dumb idea since it automatically teaches you some of the differences) 18:09:30 mklappstuhl, it probably won't be conducive to Clojure learning 18:09:38 eni: pretty good link, have not seen in before 18:10:20 mklappstuhl: I think CL is great and worth learning but I don't think it gives you a head start on other stuff, except to the degree that it helps you stop thinking that everything new you learn is a variation on something you learned earlier. 18:10:27 mklappstuhl: Take a newbie advice: Choose a Lisp flavor and go for it. 18:10:41 I don't quite understand why people insist on needing a library's worth of material to learn a language. Isn't a single book or webpage or something good enough to at least get started? 18:10:53 recycle [~user@99-10-120-63.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:24 maxm-, :) 18:12:37 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:12:58 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA24674.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:13:05 I am just more concerned that Clojure documentation does not cover all the characteristics well enough since it is already used by many in specific domains 18:13:15 (mostly web) 18:13:39 Was that understandable 18:13:49 Not to me, no. 18:14:26 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@94.144.63.4] has joined #lisp 18:14:53 mklappstuhl, Are you suggesting something like this: since Clojure is used a lot in, say, the web, that the documentation will not cover something else, like scientific computation? 18:15:11 I fear that I lose some of the things CL (or another lisp) would teach me by going with clojure first. Many people in the clojure world already use it in a very web-focused way and I would like to learn it in a more multi purpose setting 18:15:14 you can't even compute logarithms in clojure! 18:15:20 without calling Java 18:15:23 stassats`, :))) 18:15:27 or loading a module which calls java 18:15:31 Qworkescence: yes, for example 18:15:40 or is it called a contrib 18:15:45 CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:53 pnq [~nick@ACA24674.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:00 stassats`: I was just about to ask why you are taking this bold stand for CL 18:16:22 because i'm in a CL channel? 18:16:52 mklappstuhl, I think if you just start learning Clojure, you'll be fine. If you feel things are lacking, identify them. But I suspect that if the treatment of some subject matter is not covered, it probably can be found in other books, even if those books aren't about Clojure. 18:17:13 Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:48 mklappstuhl: /topic. If you want to talk non-CL, use a non-CL channel. 18:17:59 mklappstuhl: clojure even has its own super-special channel for clojure! 18:18:16 try talking about CL there 18:18:26 sykopomp: this channel is called "lisp" I did not want to talk about clojure here I just searched general advice regarding lisp 18:18:32 ski_: sorry 18:18:40 sykopomp: : sorry 18:19:01 mklappstuhl: this channel is called lisp, and it's about Common Lisp 18:19:06 mklappstuhl: check the topic 18:19:13 stassats`, The original question was legitimate, and it branched. 18:19:20 i believe there's #clojure --> over there 18:19:29 nikodemus: stassats` I saw it and I am not here for an argument 18:19:52 well, a question "why do you like CL so much?" is a bit strange 18:20:26 stassats`: I was just curious, didn't notice that this channel is about CL only then, sorry again 18:20:37 *sykopomp* opens the valves on the neurotoxin canisters. 18:20:52 sykopomp: you're mean! 18:20:56 Is it toxic enough? 18:20:57 stassats`, no, the question was "why are you taking such a bold stance" 18:21:09 Qworkescence: i took a poetic license 18:21:24 and being in this channel is irrelevant to that 18:21:49 You could replace "clojure" by any other lisp dialect. In my opinion I asked a legitimate question, I'm thankful for the answers I got Qworkescence Xach 18:22:02 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:22:10 pnathan1 [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 18:22:28 mklappstuhl: I answered to the degree that the advice applies to learning Common Lisp. I'd really rather not see an extended discussion of other Lispy languages. 18:23:49 s/Lispy/lesser/ 18:23:53 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:24:08 maybe someone should create #lisps 18:24:16 Me neither. I just looked for opinions wether It makes a difference regarding teached concepts when learning CL or another lispy language 18:25:15 Guh, be polite to the newbies. No sense in flaming people who are ignorant. 18:25:16 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:25:29 I don't get why you people here are so much against talking about different languages or whatever 18:25:51 because the looser the focus, the worse the signal-to-noise ratio 18:26:09 mklappstuhl: it's just that the topic of this channel is Common Lisp, not Lisp in general. 18:26:13 because i joined here to discuss Common Lisp 18:26:30 Kryztof: I completely understand that but I did not interupt a running discussion also no one else asked something 18:26:33 if i wanted to discuss something else, i would've joined a different channel 18:26:35 same here 18:26:51 somewhere there's an explanation of how IRC communities behave, maybe about #kernelnewbies? 18:26:57 ie. i would not log on to #lisp if it covered multiple dialects 18:26:58 maybe we should go into ##c and talk about Java. They're related enough, right? 18:27:00 mklappstuhl: it interrupted silence 18:27:09 "a particular set of IRC communities" 18:27:13 guys, come on, quit ragging on it 18:27:24 you're wasting more time whining about topics than talking about relevant stuff 18:27:26 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Quit: ] 18:27:26 Kryztof: I am not an IRC newbie I just feel like people here are a little strict 18:27:44 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-112.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:28:38 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 18:28:59 This is an on-topic channel, not a watercooler channel, mklappstuhl. Yes, people can be nasty about it. I'm sorry about that. 18:29:41 there's #lispcafe, or something, which is looser 18:29:44 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.45.218] has joined #lisp 18:29:45 I understood. Thanks for your time and sorry for interrupting your peaceful silence 18:29:47 ;) 18:29:57 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.43.98] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.95.1] 18:31:39 -!- rmz__ [~rmz@ti0071a380-dhcp4857.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:32:14 stassats`: so when you say you might test slime on multiple emacses, what form would a test take? 18:32:20 just try to load it? or something more thorough? 18:32:31 Xach: loading, trying a thing or two 18:33:15 stassats`: interactively? or automatically? 18:33:26 interactively 18:34:10 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.43.98] has joined #lisp 18:34:31 i don't really know how to automate "does the debugger work properly?" 18:34:46 Me neither. 18:34:52 What's the standard way (if there is one) to represent a tree in cl that has a value at every node, not only at the leafs? 18:34:54 Something with cl-expect, maybe. 18:35:06 something semi-automated 18:35:14 it'll launch things and will be the judge 18:35:25 "debugger -- 10.0 10.0 9.8" 18:35:44 sepi: (defclass node () ((value ...) (kids ...))) or similarly with defstruct 18:35:44 sepi: structures work well for trees 18:35:45 sepi: Is it binary? 18:35:46 or classes 18:35:52 rmz_ [~rmz@ti0071a380-dhcp4857.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:36:09 s/and will/and i will/ 18:36:14 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 18:36:19 I like (list value left right), but I might be biased. 18:36:36 sepi: using cons cells is a nice simple, compact representation for 2-element structures. But anything beyond that, just use regular structures 18:37:12 (or lists like didi says, if simplicity of syntax is more important) 18:37:14 nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has joined #lisp 18:38:13 clintm [~clintm@209.147.113.113] has joined #lisp 18:39:14 lists are anonymous data structures, which make them hard to work with and reason about 18:41:02 -!- clintm [~clintm@209.147.113.113] has quit [Client Quit] 18:41:14 clintm [~clintm@209.147.113.113] has joined #lisp 18:41:14 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-112.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:41:25 I love them. 18:41:44 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:41:47 stassats`: ah, that sounds good :) 18:44:44 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:44:55 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-112.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45:11 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA24674.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:45:22 -!- CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:45:36 stassats`: yeah, building them is easy and usually pretty readable, but when making calls like (third list), you do lose meaning. Making named accessors is useful to keep intent, but then might as well just build structures 18:46:26 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-112.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:46:27 but if the code is small enough to fit on 1 screen, a simple comment like ";; Lists hold (id value left right)" or something can suffice 18:46:50 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 18:47:42 ehu` [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:49:05 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 18:49:52 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-67-232-182-18.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 18:49:54 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-112.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:51:09 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 18:51:10 You could also use defstruct with :type list 18:51:36 doesn't help when debugging 18:51:47 Phoodus: (defun letf (tree) (second tree)) 18:51:52 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 18:52:09 -!- flipout [~user@75-175-116-90.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:52:14 CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:37 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Client Quit] 18:53:42 tashbear [~tash@unaffiliated/el-tash/x-7763973] has joined #lisp 18:54:57 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 18:55:00 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-112.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:55:09 rme [~rme@50.43.137.11] has joined #lisp 18:56:47 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-019.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 18:57:57 <|3b|> should losing a connection to slime cause worker threads to be killed? 19:01:15 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 19:04:28 |3b|: i don't expect them to 19:04:46 <|3b|> ok, any idea what happens when they try to send output? 19:08:55 -!- clintm [~clintm@209.147.113.113] has quit [Quit: clintm] 19:08:59 *|3b|* has 3 workers blocked on "buffer write lock" which is owned by a 4th worker in FINISHED state, trying to figure out if i broke something or if it is just bad luck and could have happened without my hacks 19:09:16 clintm [~clintm@209.147.113.113] has joined #lisp 19:10:39 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: Out of this 3D] 19:11:30 -!- clintm [~clintm@209.147.113.113] has quit [Client Quit] 19:17:39 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314164.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:20:21 spanner [~quassel@128.249.96.10] has joined #lisp 19:20:26 -!- antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:20:37 -!- spanner [~quassel@128.249.96.10] has left #lisp 19:24:09 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:24:33 chturne [~chturne@host86-136-158-113.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:25:10 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 19:25:58 -!- nif is now known as boy`` 19:26:05 mechanyancat [~mechanyan@li125-243.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:55 |3b|: if one of the other threads is blocked on "world lock" then its the deadlock pkhuong recently fixed 19:27:27 maxm-: the lock is owned by a dead thread. 19:27:34 oh 19:27:48 pkhuong: you have thought about my suggestion of including call site into locks? 19:27:59 pkhuong: would make debugging these trivial.. 19:28:56 call site as in the file/function from which lock was locked, if lock would read # 19:29:37 *maxm-* plans to patch his sbcl for above, when I get into zmq stuff 19:30:01 -!- Lone_Wanderer [~Dan@209-6-50-94.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 19:30:35 jlongster [~user@pool-96-253-85-90.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:39 holycow [~holycow@host-64-151-208-2.bchsia.in2net.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:16 DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:08 -!- tashbear [~tash@unaffiliated/el-tash/x-7763973] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:33:43 DDR: Wow, it's a small Internet 19:34:04 heh 19:34:04 wccoder [~wccoder@S01060026f3c6bad7.no.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:35 i love the thought of australians i talk to daily be physically oriented at a near 180 degree to me 19:34:38 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:34:50 its a small net and the world aint that big now either 19:35:01 -!- boy`` is now known as girl`` 19:35:05 sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 19:35:13 holycow: where are you located? 19:35:18 canada 19:35:22 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C6A54.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:23 -!- girl`` is now known as car`` 19:35:30 same. vancouver island here. 19:35:35 vancouver here 19:35:37 heh 19:36:04 was planning on going to tofino this year, other things always get in the way tho 19:36:23 same for me, although this year might be the year :) 19:36:27 time for a new lispvan 19:36:39 hi Xach 19:36:48 that indeed may be the dase 19:36:49 case 19:36:55 those guys don't meet so much any longer? 19:36:59 arnsa [~arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 19:37:05 what type of work do you do? 19:37:10 lispers ride in a van and write code? 19:37:11 system admin 19:37:18 Xach is another person who's everywhere. In #lisp, on Hacker News, on the cover of a Lisp book I bought. 19:37:24 stassats`: sounds creepy, heh 19:37:33 Honestly, everyone's probably 2-3 degrees of separation from each other if they use IRC. 19:37:52 holycow: mind if i ask where? 19:37:56 Aethaeryn: heh, and on frickin reddit and mailing lists 19:38:26 -!- car`` is now known as nough`` 19:38:52 holycow: I, sadly, had to add reddit to my host file redirecting it to 127.0.0.1 because I don't trust myself to get any coding done if I can access reddit. 19:39:01 wccoder: oh, heh. my own company. i'd rather not identify because i tend to say stupid things online 19:39:11 :) 19:39:23 were are pretty tiny tho 19:39:25 Facebook's redirected in a more funny way... 199.59.149.230, so you get twitter's home page when you bring up facebook.com 19:39:29 np 19:39:42 looking to start adding lisp to the sysadmin toolbox more and more though 19:39:46 Oh, hi Aethaeryn! 19:40:02 How've you been? 19:40:21 Okay. 19:40:34 Aethaeryn: hah! 19:40:54 wccoder: i am always impressed by folks like xach who simply don't get emotional over stuff 19:41:16 people in this channel are really quite great at creating a good online presense too 19:41:32 but he did cry over slime! 19:42:24 :) lol. 19:42:41 DDR: I got addicted to emacs, the gateway drug to Lisp. 19:42:48 But other than that, I'm fine. 19:43:07 i haven't seen harag around for a while - does anyone know how he's doing? 19:45:04 Whups. I still haven't really seen the light for Emacs or Lisp, I'm picking up more of the second one. :) 19:45:23 Setting *GENSYM-COUNTER* in LOOP -> http://paste.lisp.org/display/128855 19:45:57 Well, I use emacs for the same reason I use irssi for my IRC. Once I do something long enough that requires heavy keyboard use, having to use the mouse at all, ever, seems to get in my way. 19:46:08 -!- nough`` is now known as nif 19:46:16 I'm learning lisp because http://paulgraham.com/avg.html 19:46:59 Working on internal tests for lisp-unit, I'm comparing the printed representations of macroexpansions. So, I set *GENSYM-COUNTER* to a known value so that I can make the comparison. Works in CCL and LW, fails in SBCL. Is this a problem with SBCL or am I doing something that is implementation dependent? 19:47:06 pdponze [~pierre@37.0.41.146] has joined #lisp 19:48:08 ThomasH: for variables are initialized to NIL first 19:48:33 "If you chose technology that way, you'd be running Windows." Heh. 19:48:51 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:48:52 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:49:08 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:51 -!- neena [neena@unaffiliated/neenaoffline] has left #lisp 19:49:52 french [~french@195.136.1.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:02 davlaps [~davlaps@pool-108-49-122-166.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:16 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-112.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:50:50 -!- french [~french@195.136.1.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:51:30 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:52:16 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-112.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:52:55 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-019.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:53:00 alvis` [~user@tx-184-6-178-38.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:02 -!- alvis [~user@tx-184-6-178-38.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:55:10 emma_ [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 19:57:00 -!- emma_ is now known as em 19:57:23 -!- em is now known as emma 19:57:30 -!- emma is now known as em 19:57:32 clintm [~clintm@67.137.67.110] has joined #lisp 19:58:00 stassats`: Yes, I see that know looking at the LOOP macro expansion in LW. I guess I'll just collect the results from a LET form that sets *GENSYM-COUNTER*. I can't decide if SBCL catching this is better than CCL and LW not catching it. 19:58:02 -!- jollyG [~JollyG@KennPAT.uncc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:58:10 *now*, not *know* 19:58:32 sbcl just has type of *gensym-counter* declared 19:58:51 which causes NIL to conflict 19:58:54 you can try for *gensym-counter* of-type fixnum = 1 19:58:58 or rather for *gensym-counter* fixnum = 1 19:59:17 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-150-217.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:23 stassats`: Understood. My point is I'm not sure if declaring the type is a feature or a bug. 19:59:53 From the spec: "Value Type: a non-negative integer." That's clear to me. 19:59:56 SBCL is allowed to do that 20:00:07 moreover, "its value must always be a non-negative integer." 20:01:18 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:01:43 or even better, for *gensym-counter* number = 1 20:02:16 Given the difference between CCL, LW, and SBCL, there's clearly some latitude on where to check the value. 20:03:06 implementations aren't required to check anything, you have to make sure you present a conforming program 20:03:27 stassats`: That's a lot of latitude. 20:03:46 stassats`: unsigned-byte ;) 20:03:54 pkhuong: needs of-type 20:04:01 -!- Tordek [tordek@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:04:29 Tordek [tordek@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has joined #lisp 20:04:33 stassats`: I was just looking at the loop syntax trying to find your last suggestions. 20:04:44 -!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has left #lisp 20:05:17 stassats`: simple-type-spec::= fixnum | float | t | nil. So would number. 20:05:34 i blame sbcl 20:05:49 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.43.98] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.95.1] 20:06:49 ThomasH: so, make it of-type number 20:07:06 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75f258.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:08:59 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C6A54.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:11:13 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:12:03 -!- Kynes` [~GTSpyVan1@adsl-75-0-14-91.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:12:32 Kynes` [~GTSpyVan1@adsl-75-0-15-238.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:28 tashbear [~tash@unaffiliated/el-tash/x-7763973] has joined #lisp 20:14:18 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-6.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14:41 hmm am I allowed to do non-local exit from a :test function of map? 20:15:03 *maxm-* seems having intermediate problems with it and qt 20:15:04 of course, but map has no :test functions 20:15:46 hmm actually yes I rewritten my stuff using map, was using find before, but still having a werid problem 20:16:05 how weird? 20:16:13 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@128-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:16:50 -!- rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:16:50 http://paste.lisp.org/display/128858 <- intermediately crashes inside of QObject::objectName on invalid pointer 20:16:57 like 1 out of 10 times, seems to depend on gc 20:17:21 seems to actually crash on the exact object that has the target name 20:17:39 around 4 level deep inside of groupbox, layout, grid, then stacked layout 20:17:59 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-252.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:18:02 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has quit [] 20:18:36 what object? 20:19:21 I'm searching starting from qdialog, for the QStackedLayout with specified name 20:19:21 stacked layout, ok 20:19:58 I'm gonna rewrite it without return-from to eliminate that one first 20:20:12 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has joined #lisp 20:22:00 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:25:35 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has quit [] 20:25:36 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:25:40 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:58 iterative version has the same version.. I think problem is that QList marshaller uses weak hash table for returned objects, and depth first search sometimes heats the GC, which causes them to be deleted, so as it returns from depth-first dive into 1st child, remaining elements are no longer valid qobjects 20:28:11 s/same version/same problem/ 20:28:29 <|3b|> what does the DEF (FUNCTION Q) part do? 20:28:54 it uses demacs (cl-def clone) with custom flag, which runs it through dotted qt syntax frobber 20:28:55 |3b|: I believe that's a hyppie defun. 20:29:05 Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has joined #lisp 20:29:06 |3b|: Maxm CL 20:29:21 <|3b|> pkhuong: yeah, guessed the DEFUN part, but not the Q :) 20:29:21 so i can write (obj.callReturningSubObj.callReturningSubProperty.whatever) 20:29:42 *maxm-* pasted it before, search paste.org for with-qt 20:29:55 lemoinem [~swoog@128-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:03 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has joined #lisp 20:30:04 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:30:10 -!- pdponze [~pierre@37.0.41.146] has left #lisp 20:30:21 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has joined #lisp 20:32:42 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-228-106.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:32:58 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has quit [Client Quit] 20:34:07 -!- ehu` is now known as ehu 20:34:20 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has joined #lisp 20:34:20 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:34:40 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-245-126.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:51 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@128-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:38:45 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:47 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has joined #lisp 20:38:48 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:39:07 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has joined #lisp 20:39:08 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:39:24 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has joined #lisp 20:39:25 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:39:42 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has joined #lisp 20:43:22 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has quit [Client Quit] 20:44:24 -!- nif [~nif@gateway/tor-sasl/nif] has left #lisp 20:44:33 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has joined #lisp 20:44:34 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:44:49 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has joined #lisp 20:44:50 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:45:05 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has joined #lisp 20:45:06 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:45:25 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has joined #lisp 20:45:26 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:45:34 ha caught it: The assertion (NULL (QT::QOBJECT-DELETED OBJ)) failed 20:45:42 weak cache thing theory was right 20:45:43 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has joined #lisp 20:45:44 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:46:01 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has joined #lisp 20:46:02 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:46:22 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has joined #lisp 20:46:23 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:46:39 hmm in fact qt::%%call probably should have that assert in it 20:46:41 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has joined #lisp 20:46:42 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:46:49 rather then blindly calling with deleted qobject 20:47:00 Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has joined #lisp 20:47:27 lemoinem [~swoog@128-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:28 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.11.193] has quit [Client Quit] 20:48:40 hongminhee [~dahlia@175.125.21.72] has joined #lisp 20:51:33 how would I check what the effective size of a define-foreign-type'd type is? 20:51:41 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:51:43 aka sizeof( foo ) 20:52:23 cffi:foreign-type-size 20:53:30 you know how did i find out? i typed cffi:size 20:54:29 This is an april fools' joke, right? https://github.com/prtamil/LList 20:54:30 that's interesting. I actually did the very same thing and got nothing. 20:54:43 is it because you use some sort of completion preference? 20:55:23 fuzzy completion 20:55:26 in any case, I get your point. I should have read through the autocompletions. I was just reading through the manual instead and couldn't figure it out 20:55:38 a.k.a. the best completion 20:56:00 I get a lot of mileage out of apropos, e.g. (apropos "size" :cffi) 20:56:11 jasom: sounds like an exercise 20:56:23 jasom: do you judge people by their exercises? 20:57:37 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0A8D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:01 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:58:02 *|3b|* judges by the annoyingly short identifiers in the code instead :p 20:58:07 Radium [~carbon@117.203.2.22] has joined #lisp 20:58:08 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.2.22] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:58:26 Radium [~carbon@117.203.2.22] has joined #lisp 20:58:27 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.2.22] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:58:41 Radium [~carbon@117.203.2.22] has joined #lisp 20:58:42 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.2.22] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:58:47 stassats`: it could be an exercise, I suppose. I'm not judging, just wondering what led to the creation of it 20:59:00 Radium [~carbon@117.203.2.22] has joined #lisp 20:59:01 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.2.22] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:59:16 Radium [~carbon@117.203.2.22] has joined #lisp 21:01:41 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-386560.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:12 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:02:28 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 21:04:36 stassats: wow, on first glance this fuzzy complete seems way nicer than whatever I was using 21:04:55 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has joined #lisp 21:06:51 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@128-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:07:53 -!- arnsa [~arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:09:20 -!- Radium [~carbon@117.203.2.22] has quit [K-Lined] 21:11:39 Anyone seen anything like this trying to start SLIME? http://paste.lisp.org/display/128859 21:12:12 I've recently updated emacs, and after seeing this, I grabbed the latest QL dist  not sure what's happening. Happens regardless of the CL impl I try to connect to. 21:12:44 sellout: console emacs? 21:13:05 stassats`: Nope, Cocoa. 21:13:13 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.64.225] has joined #lisp 21:13:40 does netstat show listening lisp? 21:14:08 pdponze [~pierre@37.0.41.146] has joined #lisp 21:16:06 stassats`: Hrmm, it would appear not. 21:16:29 does *inferior-lisp* shed some light? 21:17:40 stassats`: I don't think so: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128859#1 21:17:46 Looks fine to me. 21:19:18 can you just start lisp, then (load "/Users/greg/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-20120407-cvs/swank-loader.lisp") and then (swank-loader:init) and then (swank:create-server :port 4005) ? 21:19:24 if I do a cffi:define-foreign-type, get back a value and immediately call cffi:foreign-type-size but get an error "Unknown CFFI type: OBJC-CLASS-TYPE.", what's going on? 21:19:38 then check netstat and then do M-x slime-connect RET localhost RET 4005 RET 21:19:40 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-64-151-208-2.bchsia.in2net.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:19:46 stassats`: And what led up to this was slime-connect failing with "socks-original-open-network-stream: make client process failed: Connection refused, :name, socks, :buffer, nil, :host, localhost, :service, 54474, :nowait, nil"  even though I could telnet to the swank port and communicate that way. 21:19:53 -!- nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:20:33 does localhost refer to 127.0.0.1? 21:21:58 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:22:38 Ah weird  if I `slime-connect 127.0.0.1 4006`, it breaks, but `slime-connect localhost 4006` works. 21:23:22 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.45.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:23:29 sellout: ISTR someone having ipv6 issues. 21:24:25 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.64.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:24:37 nialo` [nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:48 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:25:49 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:25:49 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 21:26:48 Shaftoe: for some reason it only works with (cffi:foreign-type-size (make-instance 'objc-class-type)) 21:27:03 ah. interesting. let me try 21:27:17 you are right. 21:27:29 that's not really clear from the docs... 21:27:31 which doesn't look like a right thing 21:27:34 ok. thanks. 21:27:40 yea, it doesn't. 21:29:45 also, I'm not confident the answer it gives is correct, but I need to check more. 21:29:59 -!- sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (Session timeout)] 21:32:16 Shaftoe: apparently you have to do (define-parse-method objc-class-type () (make-instance 'objc-class-type)) 21:32:22 then (cffi:foreign-type-size 'objc-class-type) 21:32:37 -!- ered 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qlmapper to do MAP-LOADED-SYSTEMS 22:20:26 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:22:56 *maxm-* added stacked layouts to his qtmvc framework.. ie combobox selecting one of the several other views editing nested sub-objects in the same dialog 22:23:07 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23:35 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.5.239] has joined #lisp 22:24:27 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:24:45 -!- c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.5.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:25:07 adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:33 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:27:07 adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:49 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-220-73.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has 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22:35:53 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 22:36:45 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-112.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:37:35 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:40:36 -!- ainm [~ainm@190.Red-79-146-126.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:40:40 ainm [~ainm@211.Red-79-159-6.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:59 mensch [~mensch@c-67-189-240-148.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:44 i don't know why i get a number raised to the 16'th power for sin(2pi) in maxima 22:50:05 i set ffprec:16 ok but, why do i get an approximate answer ? 22:50:21 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:51:48 err ok, raised to -16 ofc..... 22:52:00 homie: did you try sin(tau)? j/k 22:52:09 nope not yet 22:53:04 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:53:08 and i hope there's a better way for plotting piecewise functions.... 22:54:27 pw.mac is ok, but ....i don't know if my intuition grasps that.... 22:55:26 Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:26 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has joined #lisp 23:05:13 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:11:31 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@94.144.63.4] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:11:50 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-54-102.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:14:25 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14:58 stassats`: i added qlmapper:map-loaded-systems 23:15:36 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:18:28 woodz [~wooodz@host86-130-190-243.range86-130.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:18:37 -!- woodz [~wooodz@host86-130-190-243.range86-130.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:20:03 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-151-84-76.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:22:13 clintm [~clintm@209.147.113.113] has joined #lisp 23:22:19 *|42zZz|* wonders if his colleageus would at all appriciate if his report is presented in pretty graphs rather than dotted lines 23:22:45 -!- |42zZz| is now known as |42| 23:24:51 -!- hrs [~textual@ip-128-239-135-42.v4.wm.edu] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 23:26:30 DataLinkDroid [~David@1.154.248.125] has joined #lisp 23:27:01 pnq [~nick@ACA22324.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:28:44 -!- chturne [~chturne@host86-136-158-113.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:29:56 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-107-3-142-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 23:33:43 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 23:34:44 adu [~ajr@pool-71-241-252-15.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:58 -!- adu 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the heart of Snorlax is sorrowful. and the end of that mirth is heaviness.] 23:58:44 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp