00:00:18 Ah yep, bug in Alexandria. 00:01:25 Man, I hope cl-test-grid will finally give us some good cross-impl testing. 00:02:47 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.148.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:05:14 Is Alexandria bug reporting just done via the mailing list? 00:06:36 rme [~rme@50.43.156.122] has joined #lisp 00:09:17 oh, i didn't know SBCL is a fork of CMUCL 00:09:25 sellout1 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:36 i've dabbled with SBCL, and recognize its popularity 00:10:00 the only reason i started dabbling with clisp is that it is available under both linux and cygwin 00:10:50 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:10:58 yates: Personally, I find CLISP quite frustrating. I use CCL and SBCL everywhere. 00:11:07 rme_ [~rme@50.43.134.17] has joined #lisp 00:11:19 sellout1: so how do you get it under cygwin? do you build it? 00:11:28 what's CCL? 00:11:33 yates: Clozure CL 00:11:38 ewe. 00:11:44 that java thingie? 00:11:55 yates: No, that's Clojure  not a CL. 00:12:07 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.108.40] has joined #lisp 00:12:11 why would you want to run a lisp in cygwin? 00:12:23 yates: Yeah, why not just on Windows? 00:12:31 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.156.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:12:57 because it is part of a bigger cygwin-based development environment 00:13:33 rme [~rme@50.43.136.83] has joined #lisp 00:14:10 and if you stay inside cygwin, you don't have to deal with those little (but painful) PITAs like differences in pathname conventions 00:15:37 -!- rme_ [~rme@50.43.134.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:18:25 pnq [~nick@ACA2C531.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 00:18:41 hekate [~ubuntu@unaffiliated/hekate] has joined #lisp 00:19:05 basically, the encompassing development environment is based on gnu make files (running under cygwin), so one has to translate pathnames and deal with other idiosyncracies when using tools which cross the windows/cygwin line 00:19:14 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-130-91.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:20:44 and why does the encompassing dev. env run under cygwin? because i wanted it to be cross-platform, namely, windows/cygwin and linux. 00:20:45 and it is. 00:21:20 thanks for educating me on CLs. 00:23:17 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 00:24:51 -!- pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:25:38 is ltk able to target cli-based "gui"s in addition to normal graphical guis? 00:27:04 cafesofie [~user@ool-18e4c9a0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:29 yates: If tk can, it can 00:28:10 Xach: ok, right. 00:28:47 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has joined #lisp 00:28:49 bedouin [~bedouin@delqn.com] has joined #lisp 00:29:28 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-130-91.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:30:03 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-130-91.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:31:24 any ideas for google summer of code for lisp? 00:31:42 is there anything students can do for the community good? 00:33:25 -!- bedouin [~bedouin@delqn.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:34:19 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-130-91.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:34:28 Is it possible to trace a method? 00:36:39 <[6502]> is lisp a good first programming language to learn? 00:36:45 Yes. 00:36:52 yes 00:39:30 -!- tiglog [~topeak@118.186.129.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:39:58 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:41:43 gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has joined #lisp 00:43:23 sea [~user@64.210.43.119] has joined #lisp 00:43:33 Hi all, I've got a question about the RNG here. 00:44:02 I took the average of N random numbers in the interval [L,U], and that number is always very close to (/ U 2.0) 00:44:09 Which is what you would expect. 00:44:27 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.185.102] has joined #lisp 00:44:35 [6502]: if your aim is to program 6502 microprocessors, then 6502 assembly language could be a good first choice... :-) 00:44:50 but when I write a program that loops until it that average number differs from (U/2) by more than a certain delta D, it never returns. 00:44:56 There are several 6502 Lisp assemblers. 00:45:02 or rather, Lisp 6502 assemblers 00:45:26 Which is bizarre, the RNG is uniformly distributed, which is fine, but shouldn't it at least sometimes produce some unfair numbers? 00:45:30 Xach: true, I know of at least one of them 00:45:48 sea: that is normal 00:45:52 (no pun intended) 00:46:00 but you would want to know 6502 assembler first methinks 00:46:27 Why is that normal yates? Why doesn't the RNG have a non-uniformly distributed mode which it enters sometimes? 00:46:30 <[6502]> I was wondering if lisp freedom is too dangerous for a beginner... may be a beginner needs a well defined path instead, then later learning there are other possible paths, and then later the freedom of building your own path 00:46:54 sea: no, it doesn't 00:47:25 but then it is theoretically impossible for the lisp RNG to produce 0,1,2,3,4,... in sequence, which /should/ be possible in a truly random sequence. 00:47:27 sea: are you sure that it *never* returns? Assuming real randomness, when N and D are large, the expected number of trials can be very high. 00:47:29 [6502]: follow a text like Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation using Common Lisp 00:47:40 pkhuong: It's been running for about 5 hours now 00:47:40 KDr2 [~kdr2@123.112.70.206] has joined #lisp 00:47:42 if i remember the name correclty 00:48:03 david touretsky would be the author 00:48:06 sea: and? How many iterations do you expect? 00:48:12 [6502]: you'll get a biased answer here, I think... that said, Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs is among the best introductory programming courses ever assembled, and it uses lisp. 00:48:27 well, scheme 00:48:36 the kernel of the RNG is probably a linear feedback shift register, which never goes outside a certain numerical range 00:48:48 but for pedagogical purposes in the beginning the two are roughly equivalent. 00:48:51 I only expected a few, the program is written to take the average of the numbers and returns when that average - middle is greater than a certain delta (20). That's a trivial case that should occur rather often. 00:49:15 The middle number is 500, so 20 is a decent choice. 00:49:23 sea: figure it out, it's basic discrete math. You'd be surprised. 00:49:53 pkhuong: Why don't you enlighten me? You're saying that N random numbers will never include the sequence {1,2,3,4,5} 00:49:56 yates: the kernel of the PRNG is probably mersenne twister. LFSRs are old and inefficient. 00:50:28 sea: no, I'm saying that the odds of observing an out-enough-lier can be surprisingly low. 00:50:44 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:50:56 <[6502]> sea: the average of an increasing number of uniform random values in the interval [L, U] will tend to (L+U)/2 as the number of sample increases, this is the law of large numbers (LLN) 00:50:57 loktight [~loktite@c-98-202-2-109.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:16 Yes, that's the result that I'm seeing here 6502. 00:51:26 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.185.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:51:32 That's intuitively correct, but I would expect that /sometimes/ that doesn't happen. 00:52:22 -!- loktight is now known as loktite 00:52:31 <[6502]> sea: but this (despite what most gamlers thinks) doesn't mean that if the current mean is lower than (L+U)/2 then next sample has an higher probability of being above the theoric mean 00:52:54 <[6502]> gamlers=gamblers 00:53:10 pkhuong: even so, the statement is true. however i see now this isn't sea's conceptual problem 00:53:11 <[6502]> thinks=think 00:53:12 *[6502]* just can't write 00:53:22 I just can't wrap my mind around this. 00:53:23 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@188.250.87.9] has joined #lisp 00:53:38 sea: see eqn 16 in . 00:53:50 6502, why can't it produce the number 10 infinitely? That must happen at least sometimes 00:54:06 sea: why? 00:54:26 sea: try a smaller delta, like 2, and see if it returns, just to get a sanity check 00:54:28 sea: not infinitely, but it can produce a very long string of 10. You just haven't observed it yet. 00:54:57 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.185.102] has joined #lisp 00:55:07 Okay, I see. 00:55:24 The case where it would return is exceedingly rare, and so I haven't observed it yet. 00:55:53 and even if I did observe it, adding more random numbers has a higher chance of just increasing the average towards the middle value again. 00:55:53 and you might need to wait around for trillions of time the purported age of the universe to see it... 00:56:17 sea: how many numbers are you summing to get the average? 00:56:25 10,000 00:56:46 Ah, but if I summed a smaller amount of numbers, it would return faster. 00:56:59 oh yeah. there's the problem. the variance of your estimated mean is going to be very very low for that many numbers 00:57:00 The large number of samples has a huge probability of approaching the middle value. 00:57:05 yes 00:57:06 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-108-110.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:08 Right, I understand now. 00:57:27 Gee I thought I was completely misunderstanding random numbers. I'll quickly sum 100 numbers and see what happens 00:57:31 try, say, 50 00:57:36 yeah 00:58:13 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:58:15 Hah, it returned immediately 00:58:23 and thus the theory is verified. 00:58:28 one way of looking at this is via estimation theory, which i've alluded to. google for it if you're interested 00:58:32 Okay thank you all. I can rest in peace now 00:58:37 sea: good! ya lernt sumtin, eh? 00:58:43 I did! 00:58:51 laters. Happy lisping! 00:58:54 -!- sea [~user@64.210.43.119] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:59:01 -!- cafesofie [~user@ool-18e4c9a0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59:18 [6502]_ [5e24f39c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.243.156] has joined #lisp 00:59:36 -!- [6502] [5e24f39c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.243.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:59:40 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:00:03 <[6502]_> sea: consider this... as the number of coin throws increases the ratio heads/tails will approach 1.0; however the difference of counts between heads and tails can also grow indefinitely (it's a random walk). Actually given any M the different will become greater than M and smaller than -M infinitely many times 01:00:24 <[6502]_> different=difference 01:00:26 -!- antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:03:25 mgodshall [~quassel@pool-108-36-207-226.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:25 <[6502]_> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2001-10-25/ 01:04:10 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A46C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:07:31 -!- [6502]_ [5e24f39c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.243.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:11:43 fantasticsid [~user@2001:da8:8001:708:dcf:e2b4:c946:bd9a] has joined #lisp 01:12:22 BeWhy [~chatzilla@c-76-124-138-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:30 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:23:06 cafesofie [~user@ool-18e4c9a0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:32 pcavs [~Adium@c-65-96-169-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:08 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.185.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:30:38 -!- BeWhy [~chatzilla@c-76-124-138-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:31:39 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-177-79.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:33:06 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-181-226.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:35:57 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:37:59 -!- venk [~user@mail.protocomtechnology.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:38:54 vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtech.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:40:47 -!- pinc0de [~pinc0de@cpc1-hudd8-0-0-cust362.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:47:39 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.185.102] has joined #lisp 01:48:45 -!- heow [~heow@208.72.159.219] has left #lisp 01:48:56 -!- asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879AE1.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:51:16 antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has joined #lisp 01:53:16 -!- mgodshall [~quassel@pool-108-36-207-226.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:54:57 mgodshall [~quassel@pool-108-36-207-226.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:26 -!- antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:55:51 [6502]: the ratio will not necessarily approach 1.0. The odds of approaching 1.0 do increase, though 01:58:00 -!- tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:59:50 -!- kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:05:01 kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:31 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-181-226.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:14:04 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-181-226.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:17:24 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-181-226.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:20:42 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483CFB2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:27:41 tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #lisp 02:29:39 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-181-226.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:32:59 -!- Riz_ [~Riz_@75.57.171.22] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:37:35 oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.245] has joined #lisp 02:43:10 -!- ghuntley 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quit [Quit: rme] 03:37:51 -!- Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.108.40] has left #lisp 03:38:42 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:39:26 flipout [~scense@75-175-123-46.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:16 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2C531.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:43:21 hi all..i have a clos question - I can't seem to use make-instance in initarg, initform or as a default-initargs? how do i declare a slot with an instance of a class as an initial value (not a just a primitive)??? 03:44:37 flipout: why do you think you can't use make-instance in init*? 03:45:03 pnq [~nick@ACA2C531.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 03:45:41 (wait, are you using make-instance with the same class your initform is for?!) 03:52:36 flipout: http://paste.lisp.org/+2R3E 03:53:00 when I (defclass book () ((author :type author :initarg :author)) (:default-initargs :author (make-instance 'author))) 03:53:04 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:53:20 i get (print (author (make-instance 'book))) 03:53:20 Error: No applicable methods for # with args (#) 03:53:21 cit [~tnelsond@75-167-227-227.dvnp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:37 Hello guyths. 03:53:57 already had (defclass author () ((name :type atom :accessor name))) 03:54:15 flipout: (print (slot-value (make-instance 'book) 'author)) 03:54:30 tks pjb 03:54:46 i'm using clos with openmusic 03:55:07 flipout: http://paste.lisp.org/+2R3E/1 03:57:06 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:58:25 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:58:32 -!- cit [~tnelsond@75-167-227-227.dvnp.qwest.net] has left #lisp 03:58:44 lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.80.112] has joined #lisp 04:00:40 kk..why is the initarg prefixed with a :? is it referring to a generic function that is generated by defclass? the in the spec :initarg 'provides a mechanism for supplying a value for a slot in a call to make-instance.' 04:00:51 typo are the initargs 04:02:16 pjb the segment and point cls do not have default-initargs that correspond to the x y etc initarg labels 04:03:11 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 04:05:16 flipout: (make-instance 'geo:point 'geo:x 2 'geo:y 3) or (make-instance 'geo:point :x 2 :y 3) ; your choice. 04:05:32 flipout: they have initform instead. 04:06:00 Wait, I thought initarg stuff used keywords? 04:06:24 Sgeo: they specify &key parameters. &key parameters are symbols. 04:06:45 -!- dnolen [~user@p72-0-226-118-static.acedsl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:07:28 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 04:07:39 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:09:53 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:13:00 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.176] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:16:59 ibnarrashid [~ibnarrash@ool-18bccf65.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:56 -!- ibnarrashid [~ibnarrash@ool-18bccf65.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 04:20:08 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:20:31 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 04:24:51 -!- FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: http://www.facefox.com] 04:27:38 -!- machine2 [~machine4@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:34:34 am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.101] has joined #lisp 04:37:34 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:41:18 ok pjb..may have more questions for here as i have blown my brains out on java 04:42:38 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:42:55 solussd [~solussd@108.167.2.53] has joined #lisp 04:46:59 flipout: Your writing indicates significant brain-damage, yes. 04:51:04 -!- solussd [~solussd@108.167.2.53] has quit [Quit: solussd] 04:54:36 -!- fantasticsid 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connection] 06:30:01 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:17 pnq [~nick@172.162.197.49] has joined #lisp 06:32:51 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:33:12 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:39 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:37:46 Zhivago relax.. 06:40:37 fukushim_ [~fukushima@z1.61-193-209.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:41:35 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:42:08 -!- fukushima [~fukushima@z113.211-19-93.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:43:51 idling on the lisp channel with a literary nickname 06:46:31 -!- ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:49:18 -!- poindontcare [~user@cpe-76-172-78-4.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the 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has joined #lisp 07:34:31 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:36:06 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has joined #lisp 07:36:23 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.137.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:37:31 JKiiski [~JKiiski@178.239.197.163] has joined #lisp 07:39:29 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-uyaduowefomedrby] has joined #lisp 07:45:16 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.101.182] has joined #lisp 07:52:05 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 07:55:41 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:02:17 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-108-110.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 08:07:06 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.108.77] has joined #lisp 08:07:36 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:07:40 good morning 08:07:54 'morning 08:10:58 impulse32 [~impulse@65.92.153.91] has joined #lisp 08:11:05 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 08:12:28 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:13:57 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:15:15 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:21:43 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:22:28 is there a difference between ., and . ,? 08:22:35 that is, dot-comma and dot-space-comma 08:22:57 norvig seems to use both throughout PAIP 08:26:55 Dalek_Baldwin: there is no difference. 08:28:12 Dalek_Baldwin: this is one of many situations where whitespace doesn't matter in terms of correctness, but style conventions recommend using one space 08:28:26 hm 08:28:42 I think at one point he mentions it should be equivalent to using ,@ 08:29:33 but I'm not really seeing it 08:29:34 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@188.250.87.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:30:02 splittist [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has joined #lisp 08:30:05 Dalek_Baldwin: you misread the one place. 08:30:07 morning 08:31:55 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:33:25 -!- jerQ [~jere@jerq.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:34:38 Dalek_Baldwin: (a . (b c)) == (a b c) so (a . ,r) == (a ,@r) 08:35:05 Dalek_Baldwin: however, ,@ can be used in the middle of the list too: (a ,@m z) 08:35:07 okay he says it has the same effect if it's at the end of a list 08:35:56 -!- snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:36:07 ahh I get it 08:36:10 snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 08:44:44 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 08:45:09 I've been kind of surprised that I'm finding this book hard to follow 08:45:30 after I already went through some lisp books that are supposed to be harder 08:46:18 -!- redsky [~vigil@adsl-074-229-197-048.sip.mco.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:47:01 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:47:07 maybe it's the top-down presentation of the program details that's doing it 08:47:18 -!- drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:47:35 drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has joined #lisp 08:48:08 krrrcks [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has joined #lisp 08:50:04 -!- timb [~tim@bacon2.burri.to] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:50:55 jewel [~jewel@196.215.168.160] has joined #lisp 08:55:02 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 08:55:27 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2C531.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:56:29 timb [~tim@bacon2.burri.to] has joined #lisp 08:57:05 pnq [~nick@ACA2C531.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 08:57:49 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 08:59:09 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 08:59:40 TheMue [~TheMue@p5DDF5118.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:46 diginet [~diginet@ppp-70-247-40-9.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:06:10 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.94.1] 09:06:27 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2C531.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:06:45 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-91-176.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:07:40 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ggtzkpzbutlqzaba] has joined #lisp 09:08:48 pnq [~nick@ACA2C531.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 09:09:15 Dalek_Baldwin: you are not alone. 09:09:26 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.146.129] has joined #lisp 09:10:02 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.146.129] has quit [Client Quit] 09:10:08 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.146.129] has joined #lisp 09:10:14 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.146.129] has quit [Client Quit] 09:13:00 bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has joined #lisp 09:14:24 -!- JKiiski [~JKiiski@178.239.197.163] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:16:06 bas_ [~bas@89.184.179.185] has joined #lisp 09:16:06 -!- bas_ is now known as Skola 09:20:27 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.146.129] has joined #lisp 09:21:07 -!- spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:21:32 -!- cafesofie [~user@ool-18e4c9a0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the 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[~zfx@109.174.157.242] has quit [Changing host] 10:24:39 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 10:28:32 AWizzArd [~the@splendidlord.com] has joined #lisp 10:29:08 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.136] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:29:51 For debugging purposes I would like to see inside a (with-output-to-string ...) form what was write-string'ed so far. Is that possible, and if yes: how? 10:31:55 how about (trace write-string) ? though that may be used anywhere in the repl 10:33:26 AWizzArd: no. but you can use a broadcast string to write to two output string streams and then use get-output-stream-string on one of them 10:33:31 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 10:33:41 AWizzArd: get-output-stream-string "resets" the stream, which is why you'll need two streams. 10:34:12 AWizzArd: you can certainly write the results back to the stream, too. 10:34:32 AWizzArd: so i was wrong. the answer is "yes". of course. 10:34:34 :) 10:37:59 sight, slime doesn't work on ECL again. the message "S;tac;k; oLvoeardfilnogw" is quite funny 10:38:10 /sight/sigh/ 10:39:17 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.146.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:39:25 i guess i'm just used to other projects being somewhat working most of the time when taken from VCS 10:39:40 jerQ [~jere@jerq.fi] has joined #lisp 10:39:48 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@100.Red-88-11-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:11 -!- timb [~tim@bacon2.burri.to] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:43:23 bas_ [~bas@89.184.179.185] has joined #lisp 10:43:50 KDr2 [~kdr2@123.122.121.0] has joined #lisp 10:44:14 -!- bas_ is now known as Sokla 10:44:16 -!- Sokla is now known as Skola 10:45:43 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 10:48:17 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 10:49:09 timb [~tim@bacon2.burri.to] has joined #lisp 10:51:04 nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:51:04 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:51:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:51:24 momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a6a.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:54:54 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:55:37 -!- nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:56:12 xyxu [~xyxu@67.198.208.99] has joined #lisp 10:56:49 -!- momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a6a.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:59:45 TheMue_ [~TheMue@p5DDF7406.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:40 -!- TheMue [~TheMue@p5DDF5118.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:02:40 -!- TheMue_ is now known as TheMue 11:04:07 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@67.198.208.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:14:59 urandom__ [~user@p548A4381.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:48 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-iqwlmduvqiqmuwws] has left #lisp 11:23:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:26:12 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has joined #lisp 11:28:22 [SLB] [~slabua@host89-69-dynamic.182-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:28:22 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host89-69-dynamic.182-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 11:28:22 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 11:29:35 antonv [2e35c31b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.27] has joined #lisp 11:31:00 silenius [~silenius@i59F72594.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:31:19 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:32:41 H4ns: thanks 11:32:58 many people gave up music after the premiere of beethovens 9th symphony. the events of september 11th, 2001 are the beethoven's 9th symphony of our time.......a sublime message to the world 11:34:01 if you're going to troll, at least be on-topic 11:35:32 whoops..butterfingers 11:35:54 i gave up looking for a better language after i encountered Common Lisp 11:37:04 Beethoven's ninth, is a musical disaster. Especially the last movement. Bad taste, ugly music, bad ideology. 11:37:08 Common Lisp is a sublime message to the world! 11:37:21 H4ns: worked, thx :) 11:39:35 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:45:51 snearch [~snearch@f053007152.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:46:35 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@65.92.153.91] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:47:31 -!- silenius [~silenius@i59F72594.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:51:53 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 11:57:31 The bane of good languages is that lisp attracts too good breed of a programmer, so every one of them reinvents the wheel, and will die convinced his wheel was slightly better then other guy's wheel 11:57:49 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:59:38 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 12:02:30 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@143.93.53.41] has joined #lisp 12:02:33 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 12:09:04 I don't think that's exclusive to good programmers 12:10:33 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:15:53 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 12:17:36 speaking of which, I'll paste http://paste.lisp.org/display/128429 as I'm not sure if my new wheel should be square or hexagonal 12:19:41 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 12:20:01 I've been toying with this idea of wrapping all my stream-like processing in transactions, and I'm sure I'm reinventing the wheel, but maybe there's a better way 12:20:16 Yuuhi [benni@p5483AED7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:24:12 -!- shifty [~user@114-198-85-202.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:24:13 maxm-, perhaps lisp strictly attracts wheel re-inventors :) 12:24:30 not necessarily a good breed of programmers. 12:25:29 Guthur [~user@host86-150-156-18.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:25:50 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:26:07 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:12 bjorkintosh: its actually extremely insightful to watch some episodes of junkyard wars. Its especially funny when team realize their initial design was wrong, with 10 minutes left 12:26:54 lots of parallels to software development, plus they insert all-girl team for greasy titties ratings now and then 12:27:09 something you'll never get with lisp. 12:27:11 cobol, perhaps. 12:27:14 not lisp. 12:28:04 hefner: Do you mean "proceed"? Or is that a term I should know but don't? 12:28:29 Or a pun? 12:30:49 *Xach* goes with "play on words" 12:32:02 hefner: that code actually looks pretty sensible 12:32:05 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Quit: cya] 12:32:51 hefner: I expect if you try to handle large volume with it, you'll have to come up with a batch protocol, coz it will cons like crazy creating all the lambdas (unless you do lots of (locally speed 3 safety 0) and dynamic extend play 12:35:36 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 12:35:54 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.136] has joined #lisp 12:36:30 Xach: yeah, I mean proceed. that's embarrassing. :) 12:36:55 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.101.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:37:08 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.249.206.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:37:25 Procedures gotta procede 12:37:51 I figured I might be bastardizing some terminology, but not the spelling. 12:38:04 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-249.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 12:38:38 to me "channel" terminology immediately associates with "threading" "workers" and then locking? 12:38:57 concurrency is hard to reason about 12:38:58 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:39:57 is there a lisp enabled gcc ? 12:40:01 lol 12:40:13 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0FB6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:41:24 in my own stuff rather then trying to create "acid" type bulletproof thing, instead try to code for retries/robustness. Using stuff like "increment seq number on each iteration", other process (reader) keeps track of seq number that it last read, and catches up until seq numbers are same 12:41:56 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:41:58 hope to switch to zmq later from home grown stuff 12:42:46 add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-18-255.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 12:43:45 when creating something that intended to be used in high/vol high/performance environment, you need to test early in that environment, otherwise write in REPL and test there philosophy misleads you into continuing with a bad design, that will only be evident when you put it into real use 12:47:12 "if I cared about performance, I'd be writing in C" 12:47:13 BeWhy [~chatzilla@c-76-124-138-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:40 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 12:48:07 tiglog [~topeak@117.79.233.241] has joined #lisp 12:48:50 -!- tiglog [~topeak@117.79.233.241] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:50:09 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-39-76.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:54:01 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:54:01 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.184] has joined #lisp 12:54:04 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.39.131] has joined #lisp 12:54:16 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 12:56:02 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:56:09 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:56:15 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@100.Red-88-11-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 12:58:31 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 12:59:30 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:03:24 gridaphobe [~user@cpe-74-68-151-24.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:04:55 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:05:22 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:05:29 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:55 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-230-198.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:12 dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:30 chupish [182c5af4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.44.90.244] has joined #lisp 13:15:52 hefner: transactions don't work for I/O in general 13:16:28 rme [~rme@50.43.152.225] has joined #lisp 13:17:19 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-237-186.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:32 realitygrill [~realitygr@wsip-174-70-27-140.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:34 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:19:48 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-230-198.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:23:52 -!- dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:23:56 fe[nl]ix: I'm really only interested in plugging my own computations together, but care to elaborate? 13:24:37 *hefner* really isn't sure what he's doing or trying to do 13:24:52 rme_ [~rme@50.43.189.209] has joined #lisp 13:25:21 -!- rme [rme@71560FC0.1B3AA978.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Ping timeout] 13:25:22 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 13:26:05 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@100.Red-88-11-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:23 -!- AWizzArd [~the@splendidlord.com] has left #lisp 13:26:45 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.152.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:26:46 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 13:27:13 hefner: imagine trying to use transactions for I/O from a socket, it's trivial to show how it can fail: if the transaction aborts, you can't push the data back to the socket 13:27:33 fe[nl]ix: depends on the implementation. 13:28:15 The problem there is not transactions. 13:28:21 dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:23 But trying to maintain a global coherent state. 13:28:40 If you don't need to do that, then failure isn't a big problem. 13:28:48 the only way to make it work is for the sender and the receiver to use some protocol for synchronization 13:29:13 No. You can simply have it driven by the thing that needs it. 13:29:15 fe[nl]ix: it works on higher level then that. See open group XA spec. You can't push data back from socket, but idea is that if you pushed it into the socket, you are already in some global transaction (ie you removed it something from some list, and pushed to socket) 13:29:21 Make it so you don't need to roll side-effects back. 13:29:37 if ultimately receiver fails to receive if / process, you want to be notified and rollback the "remove thing from the list" part 13:29:42 And organize your system so that it will (re)generate that data (or something similar) as necessary. 13:30:31 people already thought it out in 1980s and what they came up with was two phase commit protocol, and a spec for it, called XA 13:30:42 If you want to destroy information, then you need to get a token from the interested parties that makes it clear that they are no longer interested in it. 13:31:06 But for computations, that's not a big issue, as you can recompute if necessary. 13:31:17 which works perfectly well, ie you stand one big transaction, change oracle db, change microsoft db, then send jta message, receiver receives it, sends mq message, mq messages causes mainframe db2 database to insert a record 13:31:26 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:31 and then originator does abort() and everything is magically undone 13:31:35 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:32:00 hard to beleive but it works with the right setup (XA aware drivers / connectors on everythingw0 13:32:15 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 13:32:37 That's because they're trying to maintain a global coherent state. 13:32:44 Simpler to avoid that kind of thing. 13:33:26 Lately I've been using a kind of 'futures decoupled via a cache' approach. 13:34:15 You hit a cache for the values you want, and misses inspire an asynchronous generation process. 13:34:41 Then the next time you hit the cache some of the things you missed last time may be there. 13:34:43 so what does caller do on a miss, just use stale data? 13:35:04 if it has to wait for result, then "async" part makes no sense to me 13:35:15 It does whatever the hell it wants to. 13:35:31 Which might be to sit on its fingers for a second. 13:35:47 Or make do with the data it did get, or whatever. 13:36:29 The nice thing about this is that if the system is overloaded, then it degrades gracefully - and popular request keep on getting served. 13:37:03 And it handles unexpected client death without any problems -- unfetched data will get decached naturally. 13:37:15 can cached values depend on other cached values? 13:37:26 -!- rme [rme@ABDE1058.14728EE.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Ping timeout] 13:37:32 Sure. 13:37:33 you need to serialize the cache of course or it may submit tons of background "refresh this" requests for same thing 13:37:35 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:37:44 if there are multiple concurrent client 13:38:02 actually you need to remember that a request for thing was sent, not to send it again, 13:38:03 The cache needs to know that it's generating a value for a given key. 13:38:09 No. 13:38:22 ah yea thats what i meant 13:38:38 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.189.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:38:44 is this for web type stuff? 13:38:55 seems what most people do when they have to scale 13:38:59 Well, it's for a search engine. 13:39:10 So, distributed storage and so on. 13:40:01 ah... "Son you know computers, why you no write google yet?!" (joke) 13:40:28 asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879AE1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:40:35 Ads are hard. 13:42:52 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:44:19 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:53:14 wws [~billstcla@p-68-237-140-116.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:26 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:53:30 -!- wws is now known as billstclair 13:53:34 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-68-237-140-116.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:53:34 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:53:43 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-179-19.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:53:45 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:56:03 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:19 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-181-226.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:56:28 zfx [~zfx@109.174.157.242] has joined #lisp 13:57:31 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-237-186.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:59:25 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 14:01:01 Zhivago: Old news: http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/dig.html 14:01:59 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0FB6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:03:17 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.136] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:03:29 -!- krrrcks [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has left #lisp 14:03:33 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@wsip-174-70-27-140.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 14:03:50 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:05:02 -!- gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-yihbsfhlbipmeijf] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:05:20 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-220-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:05:44 -!- zfx [~zfx@109.174.157.242] has quit [Changing host] 14:05:45 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 14:07:20 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 14:08:02 Sure. The important point is that Google is an Ad company. :) 14:08:33 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:08:38 -!- Skola [~bas@89.184.179.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:12:26 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-383969.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:16:49 rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has joined #lisp 14:16:54 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 14:17:10 dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:53 Hmm 14:18:15 Slime offers arglist hints for "(apply #'foo " but not FUNCALL or MULTIPLE-VALUE-CALL. 14:18:19 *Xach* looks into it 14:19:59 Xach: arglists for funcall don't make much sense 14:20:00 wakeup [~max@p5DE8EB5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:12 *maxm-* cackles in glee as Xach discovers the wonders of arglist-dispatch and swank-match:match 14:20:22 Xach: when are you going to write (funcall #'foo ) instead of (foo )? 14:20:24 hello 14:20:38 stassats: v. true. however, different situation for multiple-value-call, which is what prompted me to check. 14:20:40 what was that word for feeling of enjoyment of other's misfortune? 14:20:48 Schadenfreude 14:20:50 that's sort of a mix of apply and funcall 14:21:24 :) 14:21:26 arglists for m-v-c make sense 14:21:48 although how they will be highlighted? 14:21:57 Anyone knows where I can read about SBCL's dependencies? 14:22:04 stassats: good question 14:22:06 Xach: if you search lisppaste for arglist-dispatch, there is my example there for making (def (method blah) args) do hints based on generic function template 14:22:39 I am wondering if SBCL could be compiled with a alternative libc, like uClibc or similar 14:22:43 i'll add arglists to m-v-c anyway, it's still useful 14:22:57 stassats: thanks. 14:23:21 wakeup: I don't know, but you might get a faster response on the mailing list (or by just trying it) 14:23:44 wakeup: as it runs on freebsd, osx and other systems, i doubt that it has many glibc dependencies. 14:24:28 Yeah it doesn't say anything in the compile how-to either 14:26:25 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:26:54 wakeup: it depends on a libc. 14:27:27 Xach: done. 14:27:50 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:50 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:27:50 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:28:04 I don't think we have any overly obscure deeply-entrenched GNUism, particularly given the number of platforms we support. 14:28:12 pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has joined #lisp 14:30:21 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:37 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 14:31:24 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:32:48 stassats: thanks 14:32:53 -!- jewel [~jewel@196.215.168.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:34:08 hmm commonqt can't find libsmokeqtcore.so with opensuse updated to kde 4.8 14:34:37 run ldconfig -v, it has /usr/lib64/libsmokeqtcore.so.3 but did not made a link for simple .so 14:36:21 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@100.Red-88-11-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 14:41:41 -!- splittist [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:41:54 H4ns: did you have anything to do with cl-paypal? 14:43:30 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:43:55 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:45:56 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:46:04 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-383969.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:46:41 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-407644.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:48:16 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:49:46 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-220-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:56 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@123.122.121.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:19 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-220-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:51:33 fwiw: your name is in the test file. like ediware, it's a token of trust. 14:52:59 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:53:35 "My name is a consing word" 14:54:36 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-220-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:54:52 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:55:46 Franz List? 14:56:16 vtz [~user@client-73-37-12.speedy-net.bg] has joined #lisp 14:58:30 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:59:06 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@100.Red-88-11-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:41 CrazyEddy [~dendrocer@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:03:31 realitygrill [~realitygr@wsip-174-70-27-140.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:02 -!- MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:04:17 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:05:24 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:05:54 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 15:06:00 Greetings lispers 15:06:39 heh I never realized franz -> list thing 15:06:54 *maxm-* has a flashback "what else I had been missing" commercial 15:10:08 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:26 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:37 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-211-194.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:10:46 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.39.131] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:11:20 -!- yates [~user@184.76.132.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:11:24 lol. /me neither 15:12:53 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-77-152.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:12:57 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:14:11 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-155-194-223.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:23 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-194-223.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:14:29 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 15:14:52 -!- drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:14:59 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:14:59 gigamonkey: I like the gigamonk moniker. It's like a more peaceful version of the thought experiment. 15:15:00 Xof_: herep 15:15:08 dlowe: heh. 15:15:08 drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:14 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:15:42 If a billion monks copied the bible infinitely, eventually all works of shakespeare would be created from transcription error. 15:15:43 *gigamonkey* smites dlowe with his +2 Mace of Bludgeoning. 15:16:16 metaphysician [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 15:16:17 logicgeezer_ [~user@129.215.36.46] has joined #lisp 15:17:05 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:17:24 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:10 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 15:21:13 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:22:24 I have a style question, is there a more appropriate way to handle a (with-slots (a b c d) obj (setf a 'a b 'a c 'c)) situation? 15:22:53 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:24:09 yvdriess: seems ok to me 15:24:20 okay 15:24:30 yvdriess: you could also use with-accessors 15:25:31 maxm-: it's not just franz -> list, the implementation was called "franz lisp" 15:25:58 -!- benny [~benny@i577A207F.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:29:07 come to think of it allegro makes sense now 15:29:07 15:30:10 which means "fast" 15:30:13 my erc started doing double RET for some reason 15:31:14 ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@fsf/member/chibapet] has joined #lisp 15:31:37 fast compilation or fast runtime :) 15:31:38 -!- metaphysician [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:32:02 fast runtime or fast run time? 15:32:27 hello, gigamonkey 15:32:48 gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-ibgzyccuyomyrbev] has joined #lisp 15:33:54 metaphysician [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 15:34:25 fast heap-is-exhausted-buy-a-pro-version 15:34:48 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.39.131] has joined #lisp 15:35:02 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:35:43 *maxm-* sent them a pricing query, have not responded yet. they probably run credit check on everyone to see how much they can get :-) 15:36:32 -!- metaphysician [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Client Quit] 15:38:08 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:38:57 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:39:40 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:39 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@wsip-174-70-27-140.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 15:45:27 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.80] has joined #lisp 15:47:52 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 15:50:04 mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-132-33-164.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 15:50:07 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:51:43 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120310173008]] 15:52:48 stassats: any changes to SBCL compiled with Clang? (like, size/performance)? 15:53:35 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.80] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:54:12 jdz: I wouldn't expect the difference to be more than trivial 15:54:21 dlowe: true, but still 15:55:03 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:55:04 compilation speed of SBCL does not change much, either, probably 15:55:15 since most work is done by SBCL itself 15:55:28 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.80] has joined #lisp 15:55:33 -!- drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:55:43 jdz: slightly smaller size of the runtime 15:55:51 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 15:56:14 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-407644.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56:15 and i couldn't detect a change in the performance beyond the measuring error 15:58:07 my runtime (x86-64) is 824K 15:58:44 a related question -- how good (or bad, for that matter) of an idea is it to strip the runtime? 15:58:53 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 15:59:00 it's good 15:59:14 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:59:49 jdz: cores weigh in at dozens of MBs. Not sure there's a point in stripping the runtime. 16:00:16 pkhuong: i know, just wanted to know. 16:00:41 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:00:57 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 16:00:59 stripping made it go from 824K to 198K 16:01:04 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:20 I have a console app in LW, even with lots of tree shaking, it comes in at ~8MB 16:02:35 On the plus side, the contribution of my code to that is pretty small. So, even when I add to the code, the size hardly changes. 16:02:58 ThomasH: that makes me feel slightly better about just compressing the core ;) 16:03:00 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-uyaduowefomedrby] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:03:15 -!- Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:03:26 pkhuong: Ah yeah, that's a decent strategy. 16:03:44 wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has joined #lisp 16:03:47 should not worry about code size, unless you into embedded or "code as an art project" like demo scene or volkov commander 16:04:29 pkhuong: I even try to reduce the size by have it delete packages that aren't needed at runtime like ASDF and QL. 16:04:41 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:05:54 wouldn't the treeshaker do that? 16:07:06 maxm-: or maybe sometimes it's nice to share small applications that aren't 50mb in size. 16:07:13 stassats: Now that you say it, that would make sense. But, the deliver function has a :delete-packages keyword, so I assume that it doesn't. 16:08:13 -!- ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@fsf/member/chibapet] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:09:28 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:09:51 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:18 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:11:08 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:27 ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@phlegethon.blisses.org] has joined #lisp 16:11:27 -!- ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@phlegethon.blisses.org] has quit [Changing host] 16:11:27 ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@fsf/member/chibapet] has joined #lisp 16:12:35 benny [~benny@i577A20F9.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:14:02 -!- BeWhy [~chatzilla@c-76-124-138-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:14:21 -!- ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@fsf/member/chibapet] has quit [Client Quit] 16:14:42 ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@phlegethon.blisses.org] has joined #lisp 16:14:42 -!- ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@phlegethon.blisses.org] has quit [Changing host] 16:14:43 ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@fsf/member/chibapet] has joined #lisp 16:16:01 So, I just spent the past few weeks auditing some legacy Fortran 77 code. Getting back to lisp today is very nice. 16:16:11 Relaxing 16:16:13 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053007152.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 16:17:55 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:18:06 welcome back to nirvana ThomasH 16:20:06 -!- gridaphobe [~user@cpe-74-68-151-24.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: school] 16:20:12 madnificent: It's a short respite, I'll have to pick it back up next week. Before we can move these guys out of the 1980's, we have to be able to show that we understand what they're doing and that the new approach is equivalent. 16:21:14 isnt fortran better than ever? 16:21:37 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:22:23 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:27 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:22:28 mcstar: The standard seems to be updated periodically, though compiler support seems to lag a fair amount. It's still surprisingly useful in certain areas. Just goes to show, right tool for the job is important. 16:23:19 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:22 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:23:33 ThomasH: it is definitely not a legacy language afaik, and the more powerful the computers are the bigger the difference fortran can make in speed, thats all im saying(am not a fortran user) 16:23:51 setmeaway [setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has joined #lisp 16:24:08 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:46 my sorrow is that i have no application for lisp atm :( 16:24:55 cl that is 16:25:02 corni [~corni@p508FD1B2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:03 -!- corni [~corni@p508FD1B2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:25:03 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 16:27:15 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:27:45 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-wnkmmdtztxkmacfq] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:27 The most difficult thing about working outside of lisp is not being able to just eval or compile current form, top-level or otherwise. 16:29:13 My development method has become very much "Try It And See". 16:29:50 I'm missing M-. and documenation lookup if I'm working with libraries I don't know 16:30:22 slime is really great, i miss that the most 16:30:38 All in all, Common Lisp very much gives me the feeling that looking under the hood is encouraged 16:31:22 it's very easy to explore unknown libraries with e.g. IntelliJ, too (probably other java IDEs as well) 16:31:22 Neronus: Absolutely. But even after reading the docs on something I don't know, it really helps to be able to try the function at the REPL to make sure that it actually works the way I interpreted the documentation. 16:32:31 im writing a qt app that uses boost serial io too, and eventually has to work on windows too, i thought about trying CL but, c++ seemed less error prone 16:32:36 limetree: That's true. 16:32:43 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-78.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:33:49 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:34:32 mcstar: Does CommonQt not support Windows? 16:35:00 glacing over the site, it would need msvc 16:35:06 glancing* 16:35:13 I don't think that boost serial is easy to get from Common Lisp 16:35:41 mcstar: Well, the Microsoft SDK is free to use. I think you can get by with that. 16:35:48 im sure it can be done one way or another, but it would take too much time, i could use the experience though 16:36:23 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-108-81-170-163.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:35 (im not very experienced with CL, so it was safer to stick with c++, but then, when will i learn, yeah?) 16:36:58 I guess that's your job? 16:37:01 mcstar: You're going to have to have C++ on Windows anyway. Nothing is going to make you learn it like a concrete application. 16:37:19 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:37:44 it would have to be distributable, the application 16:37:54 i was worried about that too 16:38:11 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:38:21 sbcl makes a huge image, and im not sure whats the best choice on windows, ccl? 16:38:35 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 16:38:43 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:38:50 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:38:59 -!- slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 16:39:30 CCL is good, although SBCL is getting much better. You should focus on getting it working on your primary OS, which I'm deducing is Mac. Then, tackle the issues on Windows. 16:39:42 Does it have to be closed source? 16:39:45 no, linux 16:40:18 -!- sellout1 is now known as sellout 16:40:19 it would be preferable if the user didnt need to install anything, just run the exe 16:40:20 -!- vtz [~user@client-73-37-12.speedy-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:41:05 Otherwise I would advocate a generic SBCL/CCL whatever that comes with the sourcecode + quicklisp. You then launch lisp, add your code as a local project, tell quicklisp to load the project and wait. 16:41:07 mcstar: My statement still applies. Don't get too hung up on the compatibility. 16:41:41 i was afraid i couldnt solve some situation before deadline, did this kind of thing ever ahppened to you guys? 16:42:20 I'm a PhD student, I don't deliver software :) 16:42:25 i mean switching to some tools/environment that you liked but wasnt sure it will work flawlessly 16:42:41 mcstar: Never, all of my projects work out exactly as planned. ;-) 16:42:43 Neronus: this is just on the side for me 16:42:48 ThomasH: XD 16:43:10 mcstar: I think I'm overlooking your use of the boost serial IO, too focused on the QT side. 16:43:18 im a student too(physics) just need the money :) 16:43:20 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@143.93.53.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:44:02 ill work hard to eventually use CL for something real 16:45:13 mcstar: If it was just a case of using CommonQt, I'd say go with CL. But, if you are having to write the FFI to boost serial IO, that's a different matter. FFI to C++ in CL is not pretty. 16:46:03 it is quite possible that Cl has already some library that can do async serial io, boost just seemed very handy and easy for c++ 16:46:16 Is it actually pretty in any language? I had the impression that pretty much every languages interfaces best with C and to varying degrees of not at all with C++ 16:46:21 mcstar: Search CLiki. 16:46:40 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-108-81-168-185.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:58 Neronus: i just want to mention scipy.weave.inline thats pretty pretty 16:47:30 i dont think it can get better than that, ofc that approach can have its downsides 16:48:06 Well, I don't know if you can actually embedd C++ in ECL. C works, of course 16:48:07 mcstar: I think there is a CL interface to 0MQ that is in pretty good shape. 16:48:20 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-108-110.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:19 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-108-81-170-163.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:49:32 -!- slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 16:50:05 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:50:13 *Neronus* thinks about trying to get a job in IT after his PhD for some time to get some experience and then try himself as independent IT guy implementing stuff in CL 16:51:29 -!- MikeSeth [~me@174-143-244-95.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:51:29 MikeSeth [~me@unaffiliated/mikeseth] has joined #lisp 16:51:42 Neronus: The first rule of using CL in projects is "You do not talk about Common Lisp" 16:51:44 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 16:52:11 -!- dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:52:19 Tell them you're using "a variant of Clojure, that hot new thing you've been hearing so much about" 16:52:52 that compiles to native code 16:53:17 It helps if you use Clozure CL, then you can say "Clozure" and everyone thinks you mean Clojure. 16:53:17 native _or_ jvm if they're .. that way 16:53:19 Neronus: Focus on what the application is supposed to accomplish and always steer the conversation away from the specific language. Talking about the specific language will just give some muckety muck manager an opportunity to "Manage". 16:55:49 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-107-122-25.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:56:32 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@192.188.108.71] has joined #lisp 16:57:50 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:42 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:58:46 -!- antonv [2e35c31b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:59:01 ThomasH, Xach: I'll heed that advise in about 9 years. First I'll finish this PhD and then I'll need to get some industry experience; I don't think that writing papers actually counts 16:59:07 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 17:00:13 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:01:27 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-108-81-168-185.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:01:59 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-160-107.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:44 realitygrill [~realitygr@wsip-174-70-27-140.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:26 easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 17:11:24 zfx- [~zfx@109.174.157.242] has joined #lisp 17:12:06 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@wsip-174-70-27-140.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 17:13:27 ah, stripping an executable dumped by stumpwm removes the core 17:14:35 you can get things quite slim if "works" is not a priority 17:15:28 *ThomasH* chuckles 17:15:33 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:15:39 well, it still works. With the default core ;) 17:15:55 -!- zfx- [~zfx@109.174.157.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:19:24 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:20:02 -!- easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has quit [Quit: Outta here?] 17:20:14 !yes 17:20:18 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-48-223.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:20:21 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:20:48 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:49 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-48-223.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 17:21:14 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:21:44 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:04 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:23:23 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:25:09 gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has joined #lisp 17:26:34 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:27:28 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:20 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:32:33 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:33:04 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ggtzkpzbutlqzaba] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:33:36 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-160-107.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:34:55 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 17:35:11 Is there a procedure to map over a multidimensional array? 17:35:35 didi: no, but you can make one using row-major-aref 17:35:55 dlowe: Thanks. 17:35:59 also, loop 17:37:24 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:37:24 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-179-19.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:37:28 and map over a displaced array 17:38:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:41:54 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:42:04 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-179-19.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:44:03 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:44:12 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:44:57 Hum, :displayced-to is interesting. (make-array (array-total-size foo) :displayced-to foo) 17:45:37 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:47:23 didi: :displaced-to (just to help you avoid errors) 17:47:38 tritchey [~tritchey@108.60.121.114] has joined #lisp 17:48:35 msmith1 [~msmit297@adsl-184-36-178-215.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:04 sellout: oic. Thanks. 17:50:41 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host249-171-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:51:23 S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has joined #lisp 17:53:38 -!- dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:53:48 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 17:54:03 wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has joined #lisp 17:55:04 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has quit [Client Quit] 17:55:17 wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has joined #lisp 17:58:04 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 17:59:03 zfx [~zfx@host86-166-93-7.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:04 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:59:36 antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has joined #lisp 18:00:08 -!- zfx [~zfx@host86-166-93-7.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:00:09 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 18:00:36 -!- msmith1 [~msmit297@adsl-184-36-178-215.asm.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 18:02:25 Posterdati [~tapioca@host249-171-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:05:41 hi 18:06:20 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:10:48 -!- chupish [182c5af4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.44.90.244] has quit [Quit: be back later] 18:12:40 -!- billstclair is now known as wws 18:20:23 -!- mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-132-33-164.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:24:28 mcstar1 [~mcstar@adsl-89-134-25-21.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 18:24:36 -!- antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:25:59 Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:16 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:32:38 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:33:05 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-166-107-217-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:12 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:35:22 jewel [~jewel@196.215.168.160] has joined #lisp 18:38:00 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:39:23 kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 18:41:14 kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 18:41:32 -!- kmcorbett_ [kmcorbett@clozure-C1AA9842.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 18:42:26 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-166-107-217-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:42:27 -!- kmcorbett_ is now known as kmcorbett 18:42:56 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483AED7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:47:08 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:47:59 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:49:15 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:49:24 chupish [182c5af4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.44.90.244] has joined #lisp 18:52:07 Yuuhi [benni@p5483AED7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:20 easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 18:53:09 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:53:24 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:53:53 realitygrill [~realitygr@184-49-131-53.washdca.washdc.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:04 kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 18:54:53 -!- kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:55:00 kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 18:55:37 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-67-232-182-18.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:45 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:55:45 -!- kmcorbett_ is now known as kmcorbett 18:55:48 hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:48 osa1 [~sinan@31.140.4.75] has joined #lisp 19:01:43 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:01:47 -!- TheMue [~TheMue@p5DDF7406.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: TheMue] 19:02:02 -!- easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has quit [Quit: Outta here?] 19:05:55 How can I undo a shadowing? (I just want to be able to re-eval my package definition, but there's a conflict because I previously shadowed a symbol.) 19:06:27 austinh: unintern 19:06:32 Xach: Thanks! 19:06:55 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.39.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:07:14 l1sp.org/cl/unintern explains in detail 19:08:22 you can delete a package altogether 19:09:22 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 19:10:00 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:11:47 Ralith_ [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:59 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:14:27 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.36.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14:28 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:14:28 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has left #lisp 19:15:06 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:15:48 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:16:30 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-94-93.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:17:13 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 19:17:33 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-77-133.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:19:01 gigamonkey: are you here? I'm here 19:24:43 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:26:24 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-385190.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:29:37 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 19:29:58 espadrine [~thaddee_t@acces2342.res.insa-lyon.fr] has joined #lisp 19:30:38 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:30:52 *sbryant* waves 19:32:38 Is there some complex benchmark of popular modern CL implementations? 19:32:45 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:53 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:32:53 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:32:58 e.g. how much time do they need to compile maxima on a given hardware. 19:33:02 naryl: The application you're working on, it's the best benchmark you can have. 19:33:10 how ... 19:33:15 naryl: are you in the business of compiling maxima? 19:33:44 ThomasH: I'll have to port it to all implementations to find the best by all parameters combined. I don't want to port my app to 6 implementations. 19:33:54 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:34:17 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:03 naryl: Then how do you expect a benchmark to provide you the necessary information? What is wrong with the current implementation that you've used for development? 19:35:15 SBCL. Too much RAM. 19:35:31 Can you ever have too much RAM? 19:35:32 YES, 70MB is too much for me! 19:35:43 It needs too much RAM. 19:35:59 ECL can't compile all the required libraries. 19:36:09 I guess it's either CLISP or CCL (on Linux). 19:36:21 naryl: Which libs are you having trouble with on ECL (just curious). 19:36:21 If 70MB is too much RAM, save time and purchase more RAM. 19:37:12 sellout: Last time I checked (11.1.1) it was cl-irc. I'll check 12.2.1. 19:37:29 -!- bagrelm [~bagrelm@c-71-207-165-211.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:37:55 alexandria :/ 19:37:55 naryl: Ok. I just reported a bug in Alexandria that breaks it on ECL this morning. Was wondering if you hit the same one. 19:38:00 yes :) 19:38:05 naryl: Heh :) 19:38:24 Anton V. of cl-test-grid reported it on github, too, i think. 19:38:30 or somewhere 19:38:44 Oh, cool. Hooray cl-test-grid :) 19:38:48 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081AF94.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:22 Of course, the real test for cl-test-grid is making it easy to test things before they get into QL (or even into a VCS). 19:39:41 Actually... 19:39:43 naryl: Why is 70 MB too much? 19:40:01 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 19:40:14 Xach: I didn't realize Alexandria was on github, else I would have checked. Its project page says nothing about how to report bugs. 19:40:56 ThomasH: I have a VM on a local cloud hosting. And I just play a funny game of minimising its cost with given services running. Currently it costs me around $2 per month and RAM is $1.50 with SBCL costing around $0.70 per month. 19:41:05 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@184-49-131-53.washdca.washdc.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 19:41:09 reb: ThomasH: So, basically, Just For Fun :) 19:41:17 sellout: it isn't. i'm trying to find out where i saw it first. 19:41:22 his report, that is. 19:41:37 I should get it down to $1 per month :) 19:41:41 naryl: Interesting. Then I think you should focus your efforts on ECL. 19:41:48 Xach: Maybe on the mailing list  I only looked at March. 19:41:51 Or on making enough money to use SBCL 19:42:08 Xach: I make more than $2 per month... 19:42:11 :D 19:42:25 phew 19:43:24 Xach: ECL is a very interesting implementation for three more reasons: 19:44:36 1. Applications built with ECL won't provoke a WHY IS IT SO HUGE?!? reaction. 19:44:48 2. Libraries are .so 19:45:06 hmm... forgot the third. Anyway. It's the least surprise for mainstream languages users. 19:45:08 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-150-156-18.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:45:15 Which is important for desktop applications. 19:45:51 er 19:46:40 being fast is more important to me 19:46:44 ecl is interesting but it's slow and broken too 19:47:06 (at least its loop implementation seems incompatible) 19:47:11 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:47:48 and this is 2012, where printer drivers can be 200MB 19:48:12 even sbcl with a compressed core is reasonable, and ccl i believe can be tiny 19:48:22 its loop implementation is correct, just more strict 19:48:29 oGMo: But people still ask questions when they download an unreasonably big package. 19:48:56 stassats: ah, i'll have to find what it was upset about and patch it then 19:49:08 no other implementation complained, so it seemed odd 19:49:25 I would really like to patch SBCL's loop with something stricter to catch cases like that earlier. 19:49:31 most likely it's upset about for x while y for z 19:49:42 an option for strictness would be nice 19:49:48 oGMo: http://sprunge.us/hgjR? 19:49:52 I should also do builds on more than just SBCL. Maybe that would be easier. 19:50:07 i'd really like to make my own LOOP package, which handles this situation in the right way 19:50:16 naryl: er no nothing likes that afaik 19:50:20 oGMo: CLISP also complains about LOOP brokenness, but only a warning. 19:50:27 oh wait i see 19:50:40 And I tend to ignore CLISP warnings, because they're mostly asinine. 19:50:42 dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:43 stassats: Is for x while y for z valid? 19:50:51 ThomasH: no 19:50:54 sellout: hrm, i don't think clisp had any issue in the case i saw; it's been awhile though 19:51:20 i also had issues getting an ecl that didn't segfault which didn't increase my enthusiasm ;/ 19:51:23 stassats: Ok, didn't think so, but in the context it appeared your were saying it was. 19:52:04 oGMo: well, that's ECL i know, each time i update from git something breaks down 19:52:43 stassats: i think it just needs to be more specific about which options to use on which platform .. auto detection would be nice 19:53:01 ECL is what allowed me to bootstrap Lisp at Amazon  there was already a version of it installed (apparently some accounting team had written internal tools in CL), and it made it possible for me to embed the CL logic in the C++ server framework. Then later, once I had a CL server framework, I switched to SBCL. 19:53:25 the lisp virus 19:53:45 sellout: recently? 19:54:30 sbryant: I left Amazon in 2007. I heard they finally replaced my CL-based service with a Java one in 2011. So there is probably none there at the moment. 19:54:52 :( 19:54:52 on the one hand, ECL constant brokenness in git drives one to use only the released version, but on the other hand, how will all the bugs be fixed if nobody tests it 19:55:14 sellout: I heard (Steve Yegge) that Amazon used to be mostly CL 19:55:15 sbryant: But their SoA makes it relatively easy to write services in any language. 19:55:24 i just wish Juanjo used branches or something when rolling working on experimental code 19:55:34 sbryant: When did he say that? I don't think that was ever the case. 19:55:34 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:56:07 sbryant: The old Web templating system was sort of Greenspun from the C preprocessor. It was the most horrible thing every. 19:56:08 -y 19:56:12 Ah 19:57:01 loktight [~loktite@c-98-202-2-109.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:46 sellout: I've always been curious about the overhead associated with their SoA 19:58:32 I didn't think the C preprocessor was capable of greenspunning 19:58:35 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 19:59:23 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 19:59:40 sbryant: Well, the bottlenecks at Amazon are above the level of the SoA, since the Web layer is single-threaded Perl. So a page calls a service, gets a response, possible passes those results into the next service call, etc. until it has gathered all the data it needs. There is some trickery done for "non-blocking" calls, but it only works in certain cases. 20:00:05 okay cool 20:00:25 Ralith: Well, you wrote your "macros" as C functions, but largely things were #DEFINEd 20:01:47 My CL service was intended to get around that  you basically wrote an SQL-ish query, and it would handle calling appropriate services and aggregating the results, etc. So you called one service from Perl, and the rest was magic. 20:02:07 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:02:13 man, amazon sounds like a huge hack 20:02:23 I an awesome huge hack 20:02:52 Ralith: Yes. But the SoA part is nice. Gives a lot of team-independence. The Web layer has always been super-nasty. 20:02:52 sounds better then booking.com though :) 20:02:59 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:05:50 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:08:00 -!- mcstar1 is now known as mcstar 20:08:49 sellout: thanks for the info 20:09:50 sbryant: Steve said about how some of the internal tools were done in lisp of various kinds 20:10:11 p_l: you're right. 20:10:27 :3 20:10:40 some big program used in customer support was done with Elisp supposedly 20:10:43 Please pass Nikodemus my thanks for supporting CCL in linedit if/when he appears. 20:12:14 kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 20:12:38 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:12:44 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:12:45 -!- kmcorbett_ is now known as kmcorbett 20:13:34 sellout: if you don't mind my curiosity, where do you work now? 20:13:46 Ralith: I work for Clozure. 20:13:52 oh nice 20:13:57 Yes, very :D 20:14:00 *Ralith* envy >_> 20:14:31 I was wondering what would be sufficiently appealing to draw someone away from a characteristically desirable Amazon position 20:14:32 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-179-19.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:14:43 what is linedit for? is it primarily a repl enhancement for slime? 20:14:51 not for slime; for non-slime. 20:14:56 slime has emacs :P 20:15:28 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 20:15:37 so, it's for terminal repl stuff? 20:16:00 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-179-19.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:16:06 or anti-emacs haters. 20:16:27 sykopomp: i hate anti-emacsers! 20:17:24 everything I've read about cl so far is so emacs focused that I didn't even question that, ha 20:17:39 What about those of us that just think emacs is meh? 20:17:52 Is there a procedure to produce a list of lists from a two dimensional array? `#2A((1 2) (3 4)) => ((1 2) (3 4))' 20:18:04 ThomasH: burn them at the stake 20:18:05 workflow [~workflow@178-83-8-30.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:18:08 ThomasH: Hate on emacs all you want, but don't complain about copy-pasting code into your clisp repl. :) 20:18:38 didi: why do you want to do that? 20:19:00 didi: That's a fairly simple function to implement, good exercise. 20:19:28 stassats: I have a two dimensional array that I treat as a grid. I want to pretty print it. I was thinking of converting it to a list of lists and use `format' to pretty print it. 20:19:31 Write to string, then read back skipping the first three characters. 20:19:59 didi: what do you mean by "pretty print"? 20:20:04 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c16f8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:13 stassats: Probably that format can't iterate over arrays. 20:20:20 with ~{ ~} 20:20:20 A CL IDE is nice simply for the fact that you can modify it on the fly using CL libraries. Emacs+Slime is just good enough to prevent the development of an open-source CL IDE. Clozure aside, since it is Mac specific. 20:20:24 naryl: Yes. 20:20:30 didi: I'd just write your own domain-specific printer. 20:20:44 didi: then don't use format 20:20:48 stassats: I want to print the elements in well defined rows and columns. 20:20:55 didi: That is not a good reason to convert it to a list. 20:21:07 ThomasH: It was just my first idea... 20:21:20 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081AF94.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:21 Apparently it's an unpopular one. 20:21:31 ThomasH: Slime is an open-source CL IDE 20:21:41 hi 20:21:59 didi: You can e.g. iterate with loop using format's ~< ~> to justify columns. 20:22:00 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Quit] 20:22:17 (loop for item across array...) 20:22:18 stassats: Ok, to clarify, a CL IDE with an editor written in CL. 20:22:19 or use pprint-logical-block, like a man 20:22:25 naryl: Hum... 20:22:30 didi: create a format function for it ;) 20:23:09 Great idea. We have extensible loop, why not make an extensible format?! 20:23:26 loop is extensible? 20:23:26 it's the other way around 20:23:35 Ralith: I mean iterate. 20:23:40 stassats: format is extensible? 20:23:41 An IDE fully implemented in CL is very convienent, that's all I'm sayin' 20:23:45 naryl: yes 20:23:56 ThomasH: in what way? 20:23:59 ThomasH: it is? how do you know? 20:24:21 stassats: Ralith: I know. It was my graduate project :) 20:24:48 you know what? 20:24:50 ThomasH: debugging an application from the same process as the application itself isn't particularly fun. 20:24:51 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:24:53 Xof_: another try. You here? 20:25:05 naryl: oo, details? 20:25:10 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:25:51 Ralith: Sadly I didn't ask for any input so it's... well... completely unusable. And badly designed. I got an A. :] 20:25:53 stassats: Because I can modify it using CL libraries. 20:26:00 naryl: haha 20:26:02 oh well 20:26:05 Ralith: I know because I use LW. 20:26:10 you learned from the experience, I suppose! 20:26:14 ThomasH: LW is written in CL? 20:26:30 Ralith: https://bitbucket.org/naryl/i2de/overview 20:26:33 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 20:26:44 (LOL last commit message) 20:26:47 naryl: this was for a degree? What kind of program? 20:26:51 ThomasH: so, which library you want to use to modify slime? 20:27:25 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0FB6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:27:31 Ralith: I don't know about all the way down, but enough that it doesn't matter. If you know otherwise, just say so. 20:27:38 Ralith: a text-mode IDE on ncurses running in the same lisp-machine you develop the product in. 20:28:01 ThomasH: I know next to nothing about LW. That's why I asked. 20:28:07 stassats: For starters, using meta-sexp on a buffer. That would be very handy. 20:28:11 i'd presume at some point it starts being a C graphics toolkit. But above that it makes a lot of sense to use CL 20:28:15 A bit like CCL's Hemlock (probably, hadn't checked) but not built around a text editor. 20:28:18 naryl: I mean, what kind of degree program? 20:28:38 stassats: And not too difficult, I have been meaning to get that working, probably wouldn't take more than an afternoon, day tops. 20:29:29 meta-sexp is a parser generator, in what way do you want to use it to make slime better? 20:29:33 Ralith: IT specialist. It's somewhere between a bachelor and a master. 20:29:52 5.5yrs 20:30:00 interesting 20:30:03 not in CS, I suppose? 20:30:10 stassats: I think we're having a failure to communicate. Sorry for that. 20:30:12 or does that not map at all 20:30:47 ThomasH: you can resolve it by telling what you're trying to do 20:31:46 Ralith: It maps badly. We had mainly programming, network administration and some automated control systems. 20:32:07 + a bit of electronics 20:32:21 naryl: so, can you fix printers? 20:32:31 stassats: No one can fix printers. 20:32:42 no 20:33:11 hmm... 20:33:14 those are the forbidden arts, sealed away for eternity 20:33:19 stassats: It's no single thing, that was just an example. So, the example is that with a CL based editor, I can create a meta-sexp parser context from the buffer, parse the contents of the buffer for some reason, and generate a new buffer with the results. Standard emacs fare, just done in CL. It could all be done in emacs, my point is that it is convienent doing it entirely in CL. 20:33:22 function INSTALL-REPL &key wrap-current eof-quits 20:33:25 Installs Linedit REPL input handler. (SBCL and CCL only.) 20:33:40 Then you run (linedit:install-repl) and... 20:33:43 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-115-44.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:33:43 > Error: LINEDIT:INSTALL-REPL is unsupported on Clozure Common Lisp. 20:33:58 ThomasH: you mean, instead of having to do it in emacs lisp 20:33:59 I basically pretend elisp is CL until it breaks  which usually doesn't take too long. 20:34:21 prxq: Yes 20:34:38 What did Nikodemus exactly mean by CCL? Is there other CCL than Clozure CL? 20:35:12 Corman Common Lisp 20:35:29 ThomasH: I see. Well, people have wanted something like that for a while, but the fact is that it takes a lot of work and long term commitment. 20:35:37 snearch [~snearch@f053007152.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:36:15 can anyone comment on how meta-sexp compares to cl-yacc? 20:36:20 and emacs is there to increase the barrier to entry quite a bit 20:36:28 prxq: Sure, my previous point was that Emacs+Slime was just good enough to prevent it's development. 20:36:33 One is a LALR parser generator. 20:36:48 francogrex [~user@109.130.129.200] has joined #lisp 20:36:56 ThomasH: ah ok :-). Yes. 20:37:10 prxq: Alternatively, you can use LW. 20:37:43 prxq: So, the barrier is time or money, which can be considered interchangeable. 20:38:01 ThomasH: Someone else might correct me here, but I think the Clozure IDE maybe works on Windows these days. 20:38:08 Ralith: I still think (since I like fiddling around on the production server) that an IDE you can comfortably inspect or edit current system with without emacs-over-ssh would be good to have. 20:38:20 s/or/and/ 20:38:24 pjb: and the other is an LL one, yes. Beyond that? 20:38:28 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:38:46 sellout: Cool, I haven't been following it that closely. I knew there was some work going on with the graphics library, just hadn't been following it. 20:38:53 sellout: it has highly experimental windows support. It starts, but is not very usable. 20:39:04 as of several months ago, anyway. 20:39:10 ThomasH: Obviously, neither have I ;) 20:39:29 sellout: what are they paying you for then?! 20:39:48 hanging out in #lisp, obviously. 20:39:48 stassats: They'd be paying me a lot more if I was running Windows ;) 20:39:49 :D 20:39:55 Ralith: meta-sexp makes it easy to write parsers for LL(1) grammars. 20:40:17 pkhuong: I am curious if they differ in any meaningful way other than the class of grammar they support. 20:40:36 -!- chupish [182c5af4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.44.90.244] has quit [Quit: will be back on later] 20:40:43 gigamonkey: I am here 20:40:46 I am also Xof_ 20:40:53 Ralith: meta has a moe operational definition, which in a lot of ways makes more sense than going through the generative grammar formalism of YACC. 20:41:29 pkhuong: WRT debugging apps, LW does a good job of running your app in a separate thread, I think. Anyway, it's separate from the listener and editor. There is a task manager for handling problems. I've never run into any major problems. 20:41:43 but by and large, beyond the abilities and limitations of their respective grammars, they have the same featureset? 20:41:59 or a highly similar one, at any rate 20:42:08 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:42:42 Ralith: I have no idea what you consider as their feature set. "Generates parsers"? 20:43:17 housel [~user@ip70-187-191-250.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:33 s/task manager/process browser/ 20:43:47 realitygrill [~realitygr@64.134.101.252] has joined #lisp 20:44:44 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 20:45:01 naryl: you can use emacs in xvncserver rather conveniently (a lot better than emacs over ssh) 20:45:02 *ThomasH* is a total LW shill. Please pardon me, I'll dial it back. 20:45:13 pkhuong: cl-yacc parsers take a stream of tokens and returns an object constructed by your specified actions. To my knowledge, that is the full extent of what cl-yacc is useful for doing. 20:45:30 antonv [5d7d31e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.232] has joined #lisp 20:45:44 meta-sexp seems to do more. 20:46:04 meta-sexp goes for semantic actions instead of generating parse trees. Opinions differ. 20:46:11 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:46:50 I like meta-sexp because the grammar is more intuitive to me than other parser generators. 20:47:31 i parse by hand, i'm not smart enough for generators 20:47:34 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:53 stassats: I write my own simple recursive descent parser generator. 20:47:56 I do that on occasion, it just gets tedious 20:48:02 Apart from that, the description you gave is so abstract it seems to border on useless. You could be talking about a TCP/IP packet transducer. 20:48:05 -!- wakeup [~max@p5DE8EB5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:48:29 stassats: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/rdp/ 20:48:44 *ThomasH* is totally a meta-sexp shill. 20:49:05 I don't think you really understood what I was asking, but it's moot 20:49:18 pjb: i know nothing about parsers, CL lets me get away with it 20:49:36 *Neronus* likes parser combinators 20:49:46 wakeup [~max@p5DE8EB5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:53 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:50:54 Neronus: I've never taken the time to read enough to understand the difference. 20:51:58 scombinator [~user@203.171.40.170] has joined #lisp 20:52:41 Ran it with CCL (found three portable alternatives to sbcl-specific stuff in the process). 20:53:09 CCL: ~60MB, SBCL: ~240MB. 64bit. 20:53:41 SBCL needs a tree-shaker 20:54:14 so write one? 20:54:36 Or fund one. 20:54:58 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:55:05 Let's profile. What's so bigin sbcl? 20:55:49 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-67-232-182-18.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 20:55:51 tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.171.99] has joined #lisp 20:55:57 If I suggested someone's car needs an oil change, is it my responsibility to change it just because I know what it needs? 20:55:58 -!- kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:56:11 scombinator: "ok". Happy? 20:56:12 scombinator: or to fund it. yes. 20:56:25 pjb: heh 20:56:42 scombinator: If you are driving their car, yes, you should change it or fund it. 20:57:00 yeah I haven't used SBCL for a while now 20:57:17 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:57:21 Because it doesn't have a tree-shaker, right? 20:57:43 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:57:57 Not really... there are far bigger pain points than that, but they mostly have to do with SBCL being CL, and I can hardly fault it for that 20:58:20 *sykopomp* wonders how much it would cost to reduce SBCL's overall footprint significantly. 20:58:21 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-115-44.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:58:53 Is a tree-shaker fundamentally different than a garbage collector? 20:59:49 With the added difficulty of happening at compile-time 21:00:10 ThomasH: it has to be guided by user input to be more aggressive. 21:00:40 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.137.25] has joined #lisp 21:00:58 ThomasH: guess what 'eval' does to tree-shaking? 21:02:43 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-164-121.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 21:04:47 Where is an SSC when you need one? This just reminded of something, let me google it. 21:05:22 ZabaQ [~johnfredc@ip-89-176-173-114.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 21:07:13 Here it is, numecent cloudpaging. Seems like that technology has some concepts applicable to shaking the tree. 21:07:52 pcavs1 [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has joined #lisp 21:08:05 ThomasH: the fundamental problem is that through eval and compile you can, in principle, access everything 21:08:06 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:26 so you shake the tree and nothing falls out 21:09:16 you start out with a tree, and end up with a shaken tree of the same size 21:09:30 prxq: I can appreciate that. Since we've established the role of the user, that would be highlighted in the manual as "avoid these things for best results." 21:09:38 -!- pcavs [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:09:50 Kryztof: yo. 21:10:17 I'm curious about your use of R. Also is it okay that I put a copy of SWANKR on github. 21:10:37 (I didn't see a license file or anything so I assumed it was at least as open as SLIME.) 21:11:43 -!- wakeup [~max@p5DE8EB5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:11:48 wakeup [~max@p5DE8EB5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:00 -!- osa1 [~sinan@31.140.4.75] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:13:12 ThomasH: another possibility would be to substitute eval and compile with small interpreters. 21:13:31 and rip out the big compiler instead 21:13:59 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:15:12 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:15:13 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129174088.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 21:15:35 prxq: Is space the only thing impacted by tree-shaking or does it affect performance as well? 21:15:36 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 21:15:52 ThomasH: it could. In a positive way. 21:16:07 ThomasH: treeshaking requires global analysis. With that, you could further optimize. 21:16:13 ThomasH: I don't think 'tree shaking' is explicitly defined 21:16:16 Eg. doing direct linkage of function calls. 21:16:32 or more inlining. 21:16:32 ThomasH: I would suggest providing a replacement eval that is given a limited environment, and suggest users use it instead 21:17:03 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@100.Red-88-11-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 21:17:16 prxq: Ok, I'm just cursious about this at a cocktail discussion level. I don't want to give the impression that I'm going to run off and do some work in the area. 21:17:24 *curious* 21:17:54 ThomasH: fair enough :-) 21:18:10 I thought that what pkhuong meant by user input was that you might specify a deployment that didn't have, for example, eval 21:18:38 frankly, given how much resources even a phone has, I would not really bother too much. 21:19:02 -!- scombinator [~user@203.171.40.170] has left #lisp 21:20:41 bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:2420:ea0:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has joined #lisp 21:21:39 ThomasH: so you are not intending to develop a tree shaker like the one lispworks has... 21:21:53 pjb: Yeah, that was how I conceptualized the process. I was thinking something that did that coupled with some kind of feedback from actually running the target process, then applying data from the run, experimentation, etc. Some AI compiler. 21:21:58 gigamonkey: what can I tell you about R? Other than it's nearly Lisp :) 21:22:14 did you get swankr working? Yeah, similar openness to R and SLIME 21:22:15 Then why bother? Just use lisp! 21:22:18 francogrex: Not remotely, just trying to get a little conceptual understanding. 21:22:26 pjb: Indeed. 21:22:51 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-18-255.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:23:16 at the moment, I use R primarily to do quick, moderately-advanced visualisations 21:23:49 kool 21:24:42 Behold! The great pretty print grid procedure 21:24:45 Kryztof: I guess my main question is, should I learn R or should I try to find statistical routines to use from Lisp. 21:25:15 What would benefit lisp more? 21:25:45 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-385190.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25:46 pjb: well, R seems like a pretty manky language. Though certainly it has facilities and some language features that make it very powerful for it's purpose. 21:27:17 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 21:27:26 A maybe more useful way to ask the question is: assuming you know Lisp well, where's the cross-over point (in terms of program complexity or something) where you'll really wish you could write in Lisp? 21:27:34 (There may not be one. But I'm guessing there is.) 21:27:42 gigamonkey: as I get older, I come to believe that the power of a niche is stronger than the power of smart hackers with the ultimate programming language 21:27:52 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@64.134.101.252] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 21:28:06 We must be getting older at the same rate. ;-) 21:28:10 R the language is... odd; it's not going to win many prizes. (On the other hand, it has unwind-protect, handler-bind and restart-case, so it's not so bad) 21:28:24 -!- wakeup [~max@p5DE8EB5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:28:28 the wackiest thing is the confused-lazy argument evaluation, I think 21:28:44 but it has an ecosystem of statistical analyses that mean that you don't have to write them yourself, mostly 21:28:59 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-107-035-184.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:02 wakeup [~max@p5DE8EB5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:12 and a whole heap of other stuff. If I want to look at a dataset, slice it in seven different ways, try marginalising over various parameters in a linear or non-linear model, plot regression curves or locally-estimated smoothing approximations, and generate a collection of svgs with links to each other, I'd use R 21:30:28 if I were writing high-performance networking code, I wouldn't use R 21:30:36 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053007152.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:30:37 Kryztof: If you see it like that, why would you use lisp? Do you see a niche for it? 21:31:04 in fact frankly if I were writing any kind of networking code at all, I wouldn't use R; it's quite unbelievably hacky how to support the extremely minimal networking in slime 21:31:19 Neronus: not much of one, no. 21:31:33 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:31:40 -!- CrazyEddy [~dendrocer@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:31:50 gigamonkey: -> http://common-lisp.net/project/rcl/ 21:32:10 at "locally estimated smoothing approximations" I realized Krystof is so far beyond me, he can as well being doing magic 21:32:55 it survives, but it does not thrive. (That's OK, there are plenty of languages which I put in that category.) 21:33:17 *maxm-* still struggles with entry level stat problems like: 20 ppl in a room with you, being interviewed in 5 booths, being called in blocks of 5, what is prob of you ending up interview next to this here girl 21:34:55 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-211-194.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:25 2/5*1/19 + 3/5*2/19 21:35:42 Kryztof: That's the problem I see for it, too. So I guess I should relearn some of the more popular languages if I want to get a job :) 21:35:44 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:35:51 (I hope. It's so easy to get probability questions wrong, particularly on IRC :) 21:36:16 *Neronus* was bad in probability and numerics in univseristy; the rest was a lot better 21:36:23 Neronus: well, you could do what I did. (Hang around on IRC until your imaginary friends invite you to take part in a lisp-flavoured startup) 21:36:24 Kryztof: I found its faster for me to write lisp program that simulates scenario like this using (rand), then to do actual math.. 21:37:03 Probability theory is not that bad once you get to the abstract stuff like mass theory 21:37:06 don't tempt me to go further off-topic in singing the praises of probability theory. 21:37:16 the concrete stuff is the beautiful bit! 21:37:35 the only consistent extension of boolean logic under uncertainty. (Take that, "fuzzy logic") 21:38:12 I need to readd up about that 21:38:16 If you ever make me draw blue balls from urns you will need a new urn :) 21:38:16 sounds very cool 21:38:36 Edwin Jaynes, "Probability Theory: the Logic of Science" 21:38:58 (run, don't walk, to your nearest bookshop). 21:39:15 I actually worked with Markov Decision Processes in my last paper. That was how I learned the nice side of it 21:39:16 anyway, gigamonkey, I would say that if you can get over the wonkinesses, R is relatively pleasant to use 21:40:38 for me, substantially nicer than all the other BLAS-based (array-based, if you will) languages that I've tried. (like Matlab. If I never have to think about Matlab again, then at least this afternoon advising a graduate student will have been a good way to go) 21:41:44 :) 21:43:23 -!- dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:44:44 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:44:55 daniel__2 [~daniel@p5082B185.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:03 CrazyEddy [~leptopros@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 21:45:41 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:55 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082AE70.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:48:11 -!- rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:49:25 -!- wakeup [~max@p5DE8EB5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:49:29 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:50:24 wakeup [~max@p5DE8EB5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:07 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.137.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:56:51 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.14.79] has joined #lisp 21:58:32 DataLinkDroid [~David@1.129.58.203] has joined #lisp 22:01:48 I use RCL, it's very neet to be able to call R in lisp like : (r "fisher.test" (r% "matrix" '(14 44 16 50) :ncol 2 :nrow 2)) 22:02:45 the results: (1.0d0 (0.39937670141178894d0 2.4544697148745938d0) 0.9943635811128847d0 1.0d0 "two.sided" "Fisher's Exact Test for Count Data" "structure(c(14L, 44L, 16L, 50L), .Dim = c(2L, 2L))")... 22:02:55 I think it might be if, for whatever reason, your data are being generated by Lisp 22:02:57 I think someone mentioned a code walker a while back that returned a tree of CLOS objects; does this ring any bells? 22:03:53 but why is that better than R> fisher.test(matrix(c(14,44,16,50), ncol=2, nrow=2)) ? 22:04:20 yes, I have lisp data on which I call R functions and return the results in lisp again... then do R plots on 22:04:35 I was so much time on branch cut errors with trig functions. Ugh. 22:04:39 *waste* 22:04:40 for that case, I am a bit more of an advocate for org-mode and babel 22:04:56 because I'm normally doing that as part of writing a document of some kind 22:05:10 and having the code with the document is for me a completely compelling advantage 22:07:40 I also use maxima (not as a standalone) but I build it with Lisp... at least it's all in lisp. But as mention by Kryztof and others the power of R is mainly comes from the stats professors that make stats libs for it... so it's become an unvoidable monster for statisticians 22:07:58 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:08:07 Kryztof: you were off factor of 4 http://paste.lisp.org/display/128433 unless I miscoded it :-) 22:08:12 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.32.57.245] has joined #lisp 22:08:27 why are all the languages targeted at math really screwy 22:08:32 *maxm-* came up with the problem while waiting to be fingerprinted for citizenship, got called before I can do the math 22:08:49 Enerccio [~enerccio@158.194.169.130] has joined #lisp 22:09:01 -!- loktight is now known as loktite 22:09:04 hello, is there a way to override the warning of not used parameter? 22:09:13 ie 22:09:15 ;;;*** Warning in (METHOD NORMALIZE (MVECTOR)): RFUNC is bound but not referenced 22:10:49 Enerccio: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/d_ignore.htm#ignore 22:11:04 maxm-: waiting to be fingerprinted for citizenship? or mugshot for police records ;) 22:11:14 maxm-: I don't think your "chosen-people" is right. 22:11:15 didi: thanks 22:11:34 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-78.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:11:38 can't it generate the same person in multiple booths at the same time? 22:11:45 I think LISP should mean Love IS Parenthesis 22:11:46 doh 22:12:03 ok, let me recode 22:12:18 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.171.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:12:43 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.108.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:13:04 also, I think you count way too many failure cases 22:13:25 you count all the booth allocations where neither you nor your intended target are included 22:13:43 doh x2 22:13:53 since there are (about) three of those, it's not surprising that you're a factor of four out from what I continue to hope is the right answer :-) 22:14:10 three of those for every one that you /are/ in, that is 22:14:15 -!- wakeup [~max@p5DE8EB5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:14:27 hold hold on, let me see if I can come up in 20 minutes what you came up with in 5 seconds :-) 22:15:13 if neiether were selected, would not (and) statement fail? 22:15:22 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:42 because position returns nil if 0 (me) or 1 (girl) is in the choosen-people list 22:15:46 wakeup [~max@p5DE8EB5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:47 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 22:17:01 right, the and returns nil, so you count that booth allocation as a failure 22:17:21 even though both you and the girl remain to be selected in a later group of five 22:18:20 I would like to read CL code without loading or compiling it, but CL:READ chokes on package qualified symbols when the package is undefined. What alternate methods should I consider? 22:18:45 here is how I understood the problem. Your 20 people would effectively be divided up into four groups of 5. The only group you are interested in is your group; it is a "success" if in your group you are seated next to your stalkee, and "failure" if in your group either your beloved is not present or not seated next to you 22:19:58 Vivitron: pjb has a CL reader that isn't the real CL:READ 22:20:02 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-48-223.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:20:34 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-48-223.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 22:21:27 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:21:54 Kryztof: yes problem is badly defined, somehow I was thinking "in the next batch", coz I knew I'll get called (they give you a number, and there is a display with the current number) 22:22:25 Davidbrcz_ [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 22:22:35 my answer continues to be correct in that case ;-) 22:23:06 I added annotated version where I remove ppl from list, but it did not change result 22:23:29 next annotation coming up where I remove ppl until no more left 22:25:25 Xach: Thanks for the pointer, I'm checking it out. 22:30:09 -!- wakeup [~max@p5DE8EB5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:30:34 Looking at the WP page on LALR parsers, Disadvantage 3 applies to me, "Understanding the parsing algorithm is often quite difficult." Actually, all of the disadvantages apply to me. 22:30:39 Kryztof: you were right :-) 22:30:45 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:15 yay 22:31:22 would you like to hear my reasoning? 22:31:55 yes 22:33:01 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:33:43 the only thing that matters is your group. Once you're selected, you have a 2/5 chance of being on the edge (with one neighbour), in which case you have a 1/19 chance that the person next to you is your target. Alternatively, you can be in a middle booth, with 3/5 chance, in which case either of your neighbours could be your target (2/19). Hence 2/5*1/19 + 3/5*2/19 22:34:31 man so simple once explained. 22:34:37 http://www.springerlink.com/content/vr524j741l6100x7/ Moped? has anyone heard of this before? 22:35:06 maxm-: I do both the probability and the explaining for a living 22:37:19 Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has joined #lisp 22:38:35 Kryztof: educator? 22:38:40 professional gambler. 22:38:44 haha 22:38:54 but then he'd be incentivized not to explain. 22:38:57 On TV (hence the explaining) 22:39:30 man its so counter-intuitive that knowing you'll be in 1st batch does not change the probability 22:41:33 Not to go off topic :) by discussing Lisp but... What are best practices regarding package names and nicknames? Should packages have aggressively shortened nicknames? What happens if two packages have the same nickname? 22:41:51 docAvid: what's the best practice to avoid collision? 22:42:15 docAvid: if programmer A uses short names, and programmer B uses long names, is it good enough to avoid collisions? 22:42:28 docAvid: what about if there are 100 programmers with 1000 libraries? 22:42:43 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:42:55 There are 676 2-letter package names. One is already used: CL> 22:43:07 There are 17576 3-letter package names. 22:43:27 Kryztof: okay, I'll be learning R then. The nice folks at No Starch sent me a free copy of The Art of R Programming so I might as well. 22:44:02 (Sorry for the delay, my kid woke up from her nap.) 22:44:21 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.185.102] has joined #lisp 22:44:55 pjb: the distribution of package names is not random. 22:45:12 pjb: So it is important to avoid collision? Part of what I was wondering is if the nickname system has some way to appropriately resolve collisions. 22:45:41 docAvid: a related question is whether you write: dict:get dict:put and alist:get alist:put, or you have package names com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.dict and com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.alist, and you use them with symbols named dict-get dict-put alist-get alist-put ? 22:46:17 docAvid: you can rename package, but it's inconvenient and errorprone. Any library that has calls to (INTERN  "my-package") will break if you rename its package. 22:46:45 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:47:45 docAvid: for my question, my answer is that in general it's better to (:use package-name) than to use qualified symbols in the source, because that declares the dependency in a nice and easy to lookup place. 22:47:55 Therefore long package names are no problem for me. 22:48:00 I thought about writing code that takes a package A and automatically creates a new package that B reexports the external symbols of A. Then instead of writing A:foo I can write B:foo. While this would certainly work, I don't think that its good practice in library code. 22:48:17 Yep. 22:48:50 Neronus: check out comp.lang.lisp, some guy did it already and announced a week or so ago 22:48:56 flipout_1 [~scense@75-175-122-198.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:27 *maxm-* gonna definitely try his stuff, as it looked awesome 22:49:31 I got the full text pdf of that article MOPED debugger if someone is interested 22:50:38 -!- flipout [~scense@75-175-123-46.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:50:40 Neronus: you may also like to toy with package-local-nicknames 22:50:48 maxm-: Still, its not a good idea. If we all start to introduce new packages in our libraries that just reexport old packages, then the finite namespace problem becomes worse exponentially 22:50:54 It looks trivial to define an add-package-nickname using rename-package, if I'm not missing any pitfalls. 22:51:01 madnificent: That's what I dreamt of. That exists? 22:51:29 Vivitron: It works, but everybody else will see your nicknames, too. Same problem as with my approach 22:51:56 https://github.com/3b/package-local-nicknames pkhuong has something similar, i don't know which one will receive love in the future 22:51:59 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.185.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:52:19 OK, for SBCL. Something portable? 22:52:24 "Any library that has calls to (INTERN  "my-package") will break if you rename its package." 22:52:44 is there something equivalent that wouldn't break if package was renamed? 22:52:54 Neronus: what he implemented is local package nicknames too, you can do (defpackage (:local-nickname :long-winded-package-name :nickname :foo)) then inside your package you can do foo:whatever, even though long-winded-package-name has no such nickname 22:53:19 kennyd: keeping track of library names so that you can call (intern  *my-package*). 22:53:21 Neronus: i think there was something that was somewhat portable, but i'm not sure where to find it. 22:55:31 kennyd: package-rename does not necessarily rename the package. You can also just add nicknames 22:56:28 maxm-, madnificent Thanks. Maybe its time for trivial-local-nicknames of some kind 22:56:56 don't know if you can do it trivially, requires changing the reader 22:57:27 through read macros that is 22:57:31 I have a fastcgi library that is only supposed to work with one request at a time (no threads). So I have a package called cve.request and functions like OUT, IN, etc. pp. So it would be really nice to write (request:out) instead of (cve.request:out) 22:57:36 Neronus: ask around again when there's more activity, you'll find the library. i think the main issue was fleshing out the edge cases. 22:58:59 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:59:02 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.185.102] has joined #lisp 22:59:40 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 22:59:46 madnificent: OK 23:01:18 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:26 -!- pcavs1 [~Adium@63.139.127.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:04:01 maxm-: You still read comp.lang.list? I had the impression that nothing useful is going on there anymore 23:04:37 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:04:57 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-107-035-184.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:05:17 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.185.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:05:21 here, for a limited time of 10 minutes full text of Moped "Moped is a portable debugger that uses enhanced tracing facilities and backtracing to discover unusual...": http://zzcl.dyndns.org enjoy 23:06:23 francogrex: what should i use moped for? 23:06:40 Been searching various FORMAT documentation, but can't seem to find this: I'm looking for the simplest way to have portion of the format string repeated based on an argument... is there any directive I can put around the 'x' here that will print 5 'x': (format t "x" 5) 23:06:42 madnificent: no idea they claim it's a portable debugger 23:07:18 (format nil "~V,,,'x<~>" 5) => "xxxxx" 23:07:28 article is about 1.6 M it's from 1990 23:08:05 -!- Bugson [~Bugson@87-204-6-135.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:08:09 pjb: really, that format thing has been a blast for me personally. i wanted to print out org-mode tables, and that helped me a lot 23:08:39 robot-beethoven: but if x is actually xyz, I don't know yet if it's possible. 23:08:43 robot-beethoven: pjb's answer will only work for a character, not for a string with more than one character 23:09:38 it isn't too complex to make a function which would do that though 23:10:27 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:35 in this case I just need a character 23:10:46 I hope it can be useful for someone who would make a library out of it 23:11:08 *madnificent* would like to have a working stepper in slime 23:13:21 seconded 23:14:08 robot-beethoven: http://paste.lisp.org/+2R3M 23:16:33 -!- flipout_1 [~scense@75-175-122-198.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:16:33 flipout [~scense@75-175-124-180.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:55 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.185.102] has joined #lisp 23:19:18 flipout_1 [~scense@75-175-125-99.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:22 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.220] has joined #lisp 23:19:46 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-48-223.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:19:57 MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has joined #lisp 23:20:32 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-48-223.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:07 -!- flipout [~scense@75-175-124-180.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:22:50 good night every one 23:23:32 pjb: thanks! 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