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If I have a package that's being used by QL, and I wrap it up into a larger project (kinda making something like a bio-lisp like thing), do we just make a ticket to retire the old project, and add the new, larger project? 01:05:43 I have a long ways to go before this'll be needed, but thinking ahead a little 01:07:40 Yes 01:09:33 k k, thanks. 01:09:43 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:15:00 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 01:15:52 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-dktfsgnoskeqnojn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:32 nik0 [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has joined #lisp 01:21:23 momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a2f.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:26:52 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has joined #lisp 01:26:58 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:27:38 -!- nik0 [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 01:28:34 i want to activate some ContextL layers so they're available at macro-expansion-time. but i can't seem to wrap my head around how i should do that. it essentially means that i have to ensure a certain variable is modified before the forms are macro-expanded, and undo the changes after. 01:31:11 i am using parenscript and clsql in a package and they cause name conflicts over get-time, how do i fix this without having to select resolve conflict in debugger? 01:31:55 Avoid importing get-time. 01:32:07 Zhivago: how? 01:32:18 By ... not doing it when you set up the package. 01:32:31 Farzad`: by not importing the packages into your package, use fully-qualified names. 01:32:48 daem0n [~yaargh@host-84-13-244-145.opaltelecom.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:48 -!- daem0n [~yaargh@host-84-13-244-145.opaltelecom.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:32:48 daem0n [~yaargh@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has joined #lisp 01:32:51 if you want to easily rename some packages, conduits work nicely for that 01:33:39 Farzad`: one option is to put (:shadow #:get-time) in your defpackage form. then you must explicitly refer to clsql:get-time and parenscript:get-time when in-package your package. 01:33:51 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 01:33:58 -!- daem0n [~yaargh@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has left #lisp 01:34:08 Farzad`: or you could decide you want one or the other sans prefix, so you could use (:shadowing-import-from #:clsql #:get-time) or (:shadowing-import-from #:parenscript #:get-time) 01:34:52 thanks that will do :) 01:35:37 You don't inherit packages, you use them, and the symbols exported from used packages are not imported but inherited. 01:35:45 I generally avoid importing symbols where practical. 01:35:54 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 01:36:14 -!- momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a2f.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36:14 Knowing that bar is actually foo:bar is often more useful than not typing in foo: 01:36:33 Shadowing inhibits inheritance. 01:38:28 -!- chimeracoder [~chimeraco@c-24-91-19-6.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 01:40:10 redsky [~vigil@adsl-074-229-197-048.sip.mco.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:36 -!- ravster [~user@184.175.28.107] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43:43 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.94.152] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:44:06 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.12] has joined #lisp 01:46:32 nik0 [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has joined #lisp 01:47:09 if slime-inspector is able to show "A proper list:", does that mean it walks the whole thing and would be easily capable of showing the length as well? 01:47:36 *Phoodus* is dealing with lists in the 10s of thousands to millions 01:47:38 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:48:51 since you can't use apply with "and", what's an elegant alternative? I remember reading about one, damned if I can remember now that I need it though. 01:49:02 every? 01:49:25 redsky: http://lisptips.com/post/11608641449/how-do-i-apply-and 01:50:20 thank you. knew it was simple, but googling with "and" is tricky feat 01:50:44 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 01:51:58 yes 01:52:08 http://www.securelist.com/en/blog/667/The_Mystery_of_the_Duqu_Framework 01:52:10 (lambda (a b) (and a b)) 01:52:18 For a more general approach to that class of problem. 01:54:44 joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has joined #lisp 01:57:41 -!- nik0 [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has quit [Ping timeout: 620 seconds] 02:02:09 zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:02 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:13:17 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:30 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-25-16.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:14:17 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:31 nik0 [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has joined #lisp 02:17:47 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-91-47.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:18:14 sacho [~sacho@95-42-91-47.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 02:18:19 springz [~springz@199.119.206.50] has joined #lisp 02:20:38 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@ip98-169-80-239.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:20:59 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-97-192.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:09 mgodshall [~quassel@pool-108-36-207-226.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:00 it seems that swank:start-server has had its :coding-system argument removed, and I don't see where I can set it now. I want UTF-8. Anybody know what the new magic is, or if it defaults to UTF-8 now? 02:27:34 -!- ASau [~user@95-24-201-82.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:28:55 -!- nik0 [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has quit [Ping timeout: 624 seconds] 02:34:13 Was I pinged in here earlier? 02:35:32 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.51.39] has joined #lisp 02:35:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.51.39] has quit [Changing host] 02:35:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 02:35:55 -!- mgodshall [~quassel@pool-108-36-207-226.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:36:08 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 02:36:21 -!- rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:37:09 rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has joined #lisp 02:41:33 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:43 nik0 [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has joined #lisp 02:49:52 If I have the name of a package as a symbol, how can I call a function in that package? For instance, *foo* is the symbol bar. I want to call bar:baz. (*foo*:baz) gives me an error that the package *foo* is not found. 02:50:10 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A897.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:57 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 02:52:05 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483AC86.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:52:35 I think (funcall (symbol-function (find-symbol (symbol-name 'baz) *foo*)))? 02:53:01 Ohhlemme try that :-) 02:53:30 gko [~gko@220.228.255.202] has joined #lisp 02:53:47 see find-symbol, find-package, symbol-name, and read about how symbols and packages work, because you've got a little mixed up 02:54:01 Bike: that was *perfect*. Thank you so very much. 02:54:20 oh, hefner's right, you should look at find-package as well. 02:54:28 how do i prevent parenscript from lowercaseing the resulting script? 02:54:30 okay 02:57:38 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:57:38 -!- nik0 [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 02:58:43 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 03:00:09 -!- pnq [~nick@AC817FD8.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:02:37 pnq [~nick@172.129.127.216] has joined #lisp 03:05:08 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xheyvlslkcpqtkot] has joined #lisp 03:06:19 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 03:08:09 -!- agam [agam@nat/google/x-ldtirtbebwrifmon] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 03:10:55 -!- rme [rme@833E80F1.333FC83A.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:10:55 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.184.114] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:11:42 mgodshall [~quassel@pool-108-36-207-226.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:50 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-237-2-224.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:15:03 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 03:16:33 nik0 [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has joined #lisp 03:22:43 technically you don't need the symbol-function, as a symbol is a function designator on its own: 03:22:44 CL-USER> (funcall (find-symbol (symbol-name '+) :common-lisp) 1 2 3) 03:22:44 6 03:23:25 Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:39 stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.31.67] has joined #lisp 03:26:52 solussd [~solussd@108.167.2.53] has joined #lisp 03:28:49 -!- nik0 [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has quit [Ping timeout: 615 seconds] 03:35:06 zer0drew [~guest@h255.154.22.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:46 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:36:08 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:38:21 i am trying to make a multiple column list pane similar to the CAPI's multiple-column-list-panel. I have a table with the first row being a list of button panes for the titles but my second list is a list of text-fields. is there a way to iterate through the second list to return the nth list? i've tried (loop for i from 0 to (- (length list) 1) return (nth i list)) but this only returns once. 03:38:45 -!- Farzad` [~farzadbek@46.225.106.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:39:44 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:40:13 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2CB6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:42:10 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 03:45:28 -!- fractal_heart [~mzhang@adsl-71-146-134-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:46:37 nik0 [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has joined #lisp 03:51:47 -!- pnq [~nick@172.129.127.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:52:51 -!- hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:53:01 jlongster 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nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 07:16:32 fasta_ [1334259@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:16:39 nik0 [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has joined #lisp 07:16:43 crypto_ [~z0d@q.notresp.com] has joined #lisp 07:17:03 _KDr2_ [~kdr2@123.112.70.206] has joined #lisp 07:18:46 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:18:54 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:19:17 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 07:20:13 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:21:16 _main_ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:41 -!- BrianRice [~water@174-21-120-125.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:21:41 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xheyvlslkcpqtkot] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:21:41 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@123.112.70.206] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:21:41 -!- __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:21:42 -!- fasta [1334259@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:21:42 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:21:42 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:21:42 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 07:21:55 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-200-151.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:55 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-200-151.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:21:55 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 07:21:56 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:23:57 Ralith: ping. 07:24:03 that didn't take long 07:24:37 Ralith: darcs get http://www.pps.jussieu.fr/~jch/software/repos/cpc 07:24:46 "The grammar is in the files lexer.lisp and parser.lisp; it's for 07:24:46 a superset of C99, all of the extensions are marked with a comment 07:24:55 saying "; extension"." 07:24:56 -!- _main_ is now known as __main__ 07:25:09 and 07:25:11 "This version is no longer maintained (the new version of CPC is written 07:25:12 in Caml), so I'm not going to fix any bugs you may find. However, 07:25:12 you'll welcome to use it in any way you wish. (I'd appreciate it if you 07:25:12 acknowledged my contribution, though, a simple sentence of thanks 07:25:14 somewhere in the docs is more than enough.) 07:25:16 " 07:25:53 ooh, Norvig's gonna teach program design 07:25:57 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:26:13 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-200-151.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:14 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-200-151.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:26:14 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 07:26:58 -!- saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA0E4C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:27:29 dnm: thanks! 07:27:35 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:27:52 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 07:28:05 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 07:28:23 -!- nik0 [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 07:28:58 Ralith: Heh, don't thank me, thank jch. 07:29:10 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ivafezvcinngzxzl] has joined #lisp 07:29:18 I was thanking you for spending the time and pinging me :P 07:29:32 (I appreciate jch's generosity too, certainly) 07:29:36 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.183.88] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 07:30:03 -!- X-Scale` [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:30:36 No worries at all. Again, thanks for the pointers! 07:31:13 nmnnnn 07:31:58 Woops. 07:32:02 I blame lag. 07:32:20 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-142-197.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:05 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 07:33:05 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 07:33:06 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:33:59 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.189.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:44:38 kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 07:46:30 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.69] has joined #lisp 07:46:39 nik0 [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has joined #lisp 07:46:47 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-142-197.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:48:28 -!- lakatos [~lakatos@c3.uaic.ro] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:52:24 nauar [~nauar@ip235200.bcn.altecom.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:30 lakatos [~lakatos@c3.uaic.ro] has joined #lisp 07:55:26 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:55:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:58:23 -!- nik0 [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 07:58:40 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:58:45 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:00:00 good morning 08:00:07 morning 08:00:59 motning 08:01:13 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-142-197.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:20 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:06:02 bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has joined #lisp 08:08:58 teggi_ [~teggi@123.20.51.9] has joined #lisp 08:09:56 dnm: Do you mean the code for the parser? 08:10:44 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:11:24 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.165.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:16:41 nik0 [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has joined #lisp 08:17:48 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:17:52 -!- zer0drew [~guest@h255.154.22.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has left #lisp 08:18:44 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:26:01 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-108-110.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: h g .goonaayAtA nw.dngi,yi] 08:28:34 -!- nik0 [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has quit [Ping timeout: 608 seconds] 08:28:56 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-44-180.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:29:10 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-77-133.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:29:19 TheMue [~TheMue@p5DDF6A03.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:18 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 08:31:05 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:31:56 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.69] has joined #lisp 08:32:19 bas_ [~bas@89.184.179.185] has joined #lisp 08:32:24 -!- bas_ is now known as Skola 08:33:54 shachaf_ [~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 08:33:54 -!- shachaf_ [~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:34:06 albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:06 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:34:06 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #lisp 08:34:52 ASau [~user@128-68-14-203.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:37:27 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 08:38:39 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-91-176.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:41:24 -!- BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:42:28 hi 08:43:16 BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:17 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:45:05 splittist [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has joined #lisp 08:45:10 morning 08:46:07 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-60-28.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:46:40 nik0 [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has joined #lisp 08:48:29 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 08:56:23 -!- newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:56:50 -!- mikekelly [~mike@ks391369.kimsufi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:57:15 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:57:20 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 08:58:20 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 08:58:55 -!- nik0 [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has quit [Ping timeout: 624 seconds] 09:00:10 -!- sawgij [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:04:08 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-tydbezzlkcbvrkvg] has joined #lisp 09:07:09 nik0 [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has joined #lisp 09:08:04 -!- nik0 is now known as nicko 09:08:33 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 09:14:22 -!- nicko [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has left #lisp 09:16:21 -!- lakatos [~lakatos@c3.uaic.ro] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:16:33 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 09:17:02 DataLinkDroid [~David@CPE-124-183-88-10.lns13.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:18:31 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 09:18:39 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 09:18:44 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Client Quit] 09:22:51 -!- cafesofie [~user@ool-18e4c9a0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:26:20 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:29:25 -!- gko [~gko@220.228.255.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:30:27 bon jour 09:30:41 bonjour monsieur. Ca va? 09:31:44 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-172.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:32:55 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:33:02 gko [~gko@220.228.255.202] has joined #lisp 09:33:10 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:34:07 Neronus: well enough, thank you :) 09:34:08 -!- _KDr2_ [~kdr2@123.112.70.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:34:19 Neronus: and to follow US protocol: how are you? 09:34:30 ca va bien, merci :) 09:34:34 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-oevurydwxteibcjw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:35:52 cosa è questa lingua voi parlare? 09:36:20 gibberish! 09:36:30 i thought so! :) 09:37:08 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39:39 chr`` [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 09:40:50 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:40:52 -!- chr` [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:43:30 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 09:49:48 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:51:35 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-tooqszvvtkrrsguz] has joined #lisp 09:51:49 newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has joined #lisp 09:53:08 -!- chr`` is now known as chr 09:53:44 teggi [~teggi@113.172.36.30] has joined #lisp 09:53:49 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:55:02 -!- teggi_ [~teggi@123.20.51.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:57:58 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:58:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:01:31 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:02:38 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 10:03:02 vervic [~vervic@e209-156.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:03:20 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.94.1] 10:03:40 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 10:06:03 -!- MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:06:43 Now my bibtex parser with parser-combinators can even handle nested braces. And has documentation \o/ 10:07:11 it's also a lot longer now (factor 2.5) mainly because of documentation 10:08:35 lakatos [~lakatos@w5.uaic.ro] has joined #lisp 10:08:52 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:09:42 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:12:16 Neronus: want to make it 50 times bigger? add tests! 10:14:05 jdz: my pet project has only 30% tests (SLOC) ;( 10:16:32 Netfeed [~netfeed@cinch/fan/netfeed] has joined #lisp 10:17:24 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 10:19:52 -!- gko [~gko@220.228.255.202] has quit [] 10:21:14 jdz: My test is my list of publications (4) and the list of papers for which I have written a summary so far :) 10:22:03 Not automatic, but who cares? The code's not going to change anyway (I hope) 10:22:17 famous last words 10:22:39 :) 10:23:08 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 10:25:23 -!- springz [~springz@199.119.206.50] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:27:43 Joke: "Elder, what does the word automatically mean?". "It mean..Your mother is a whore, and you are automatically her son!" 10:28:05 Ukrainian humor, may not be funny to all 10:28:06 What a country! 10:29:23 maxm-: how do you know it's Ukrainian? 10:29:48 maxm-: judging from your link from yesterady about Latvian jokes, they were nothing like Latvian... 10:30:26 jdz: because I'm ukrainian and its a shortened variant of ukrainian joke about bandera's rebels teaching young recruits to shoot ak-47 10:31:20 makes a lot of sense 10:33:23 -!- orivej [~orivej@ip-83-149-3-163.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:36:41 do all lisp files , compiled to fasl files or is something triggered exclusively by calling functions like compile-file ? 10:37:01 kilon: asdf:compile is often used 10:37:13 or perhaps it's asdf:compile-file, not sure atm 10:37:15 (decf flip215) 10:37:47 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 10:37:54 so I assume fasl files are optional, and they are used for their speed ? 10:38:50 allegrocl docs state that fasl stands for "fast loading" 10:39:27 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:39:35 optional for you: yes. Optional for the implementor: No 10:40:25 -!- pspace [~andrew@d118-75-188-8.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:41:24 I dont understand how it can be optional for me and not for implementor 10:41:41 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:41:46 kilon: easy, you don't ever have to compile your source files. 10:43:11 it's optional for fasls to be fast 10:43:33 for all you know, they can be just lisp code with compilation semantics applied 10:44:06 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 10:44:25 yeah, minimized sources! 10:44:36 works for JavaScript, so should work for lisp, too 10:44:38 ok so the compilation of fasl is not the same as the compilation when i execute a lisp file 10:44:49 see 3.2.2.2 10:44:54 how do you "execute a lisp file"? 10:45:16 KDr2 [~kdr2@123.122.97.8] has joined #lisp 10:47:43 sbcl my.lisp 10:48:04 or using the load-file function 10:48:31 kilon: LOAD does not execute a file, it loads it 10:48:46 kilon: and LOAD works on fasl files, too 10:49:28 yeah i meant , calling the functions afterwards 10:49:48 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:50:01 kilon: what about calling the functions afterwards? 10:50:19 for execution of lisp commands 10:50:39 kilon: what is your question, again? 10:50:42 there are no lisp commands, and they are not executed. 10:51:24 sexps are not commands ? how so ? they dont perform actions ? 10:51:26 kilon: seruously. you need to read a good book on lisp, and maybe another. 10:51:27 kilon: you lack basic understanding of lisp. this makes it hard to interact with you 10:51:40 I have read Land of Lisp 10:51:50 now I am reading Practical Common Lisp 10:52:15 kilon: expressions are expressions, they are not commands 10:52:22 how so ? 10:52:43 and my intial question is when fasl files are created 10:53:07 kilon: easy, there is no "command" entry in The Standard 10:53:12 Land of Lisp mentioned nothing of lisp expression (aka forms ?) not being commands 10:53:20 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:53:37 kilon: there are _no_ "commands" 10:53:43 CLIM has commands 10:53:46 I dont follow, by "command" I mean a instruction that produces a result 10:53:51 i'm pretty sure you do not mean those 10:54:00 kilon: we call them functions. and we call them. 10:54:07 for example a=10 or print "hell" 10:54:22 that doesn't look like lisp 10:54:26 kilon: seriously. it helps if you use our language. and no, you cannot expect us to adopt your fantasy language. 10:54:42 kilon: you will have a very hard time communicating on technical topics if you use your own invented vocabulary 10:54:59 I dont follow what "commands" has to do with the specific of a programming language, its a general term 10:55:29 ok then sexp 10:55:40 bzzzt! 10:55:42 i assume that included any lisp instruction 10:55:53 there are no "instructions", either 10:55:57 :D 10:56:06 is it generic? i heard "expressions" and "statements", not "commands" 10:56:11 kilon: and it's not funny 10:56:58 yes we use term "Command" alot in schools here in Greece for teaching programming 10:57:12 and commands are for things like "ls" in shell 10:57:15 and yes its used as a general term 10:57:18 kilon: you are teaching programming? 10:57:24 no 10:57:46 thank god! 10:57:47 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:57:49 #lisp is no Greece 10:57:51 if there was one 10:58:05 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:58:15 can you explain to me why lisp has no commands since you are know programming better than me ? 10:58:47 kilon: can you explain to me why your nick is "kilon" and not "nolik"? 10:58:48 anyway 10:59:10 because lisp is not an interactive shell 10:59:13 "kilon" is an ancient greek word 10:59:14 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.137.26.211] has joined #lisp 10:59:24 TheMue_ [~TheMue@pC19F6455.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:26 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:59:27 no idea what "nolik" is 10:59:36 so should I say sexp instead ? 10:59:42 you should not 10:59:44 or lisp forms ? 10:59:57 kilon: you should say function if you mean function, you should say call if you mean call. it is very simple. 10:59:58 is there any book that explains those basic concepts ? 10:59:59 in what context? 11:00:12 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00:12 kilon: these basic concepts are covered in every lisp book 11:00:13 Common Lisp standard has a glossary, you should go read for what terms there are and what they mean 11:00:20 and how you encompass all lisp interaction into a single term ? 11:00:32 joy 11:00:35 kilon: what is a "lisp interaction"? 11:00:36 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:00:54 including lisp function calls, class creations , macros etc ? 11:01:18 kilon: in the beginning, you call a function. that is what it is called. 11:01:26 kilon: not "command". not "interaction". 11:01:32 -!- TheMue [~TheMue@p5DDF6A03.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:01:32 -!- TheMue_ is now known as TheMue 11:01:49 a lisp source file contains forms 11:01:51 functions are called, macros are expanded. not very hard, is it? 11:02:01 I know what a function is 11:02:18 you have not given a slightest clue that you do, so far 11:02:48 well I know that function is a collection of statements and that is callable 11:03:01 it is not a collection of statements 11:03:05 what is it ? 11:03:13 a mapping from X to Z 11:03:39 kilon: l1sp.org/cl/glossary/function 11:03:41 and no Land of Lisp did not make clearn those things thats why I am asking 11:04:19 but functions in lisp are not functions, so they may have side-effects also 11:04:28 not pure functions, that is 11:04:47 kilon: maybe land of lisp was not the right book for you and you need to read another. 11:04:52 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:04:53 kilon: also, there are no statements in Common Lisp 11:05:02 ok 11:05:16 that is why I am reading Practical Common Lisp 11:05:21 kilon: very good. 11:05:25 mayeb it will be better 11:05:39 kilon: so now read some more. you need to get your terminology straight. 11:05:41 maybe it is better 11:05:50 make sure you pay attention to terminology that is used 11:06:07 add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-5-113.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 11:07:03 you still have not replied to my question though 11:07:27 kilon: please ask again 11:07:39 or is there a link that can shed some light to the specific of lisp compilation for sbcl and ccl ? 11:07:59 the spec has a chapter or two on compilation 11:08:06 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.183.88] has joined #lisp 11:08:11 i'm pretty sure you've been given a reference already 11:08:48 kilon: this one: l1sp.org/cl/3.2.2.2 11:09:37 thank you 11:09:41 kilon: i hope you will be able to navigate to section 3.2 by yourself 11:09:53 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:10:23 I am not sure my brain is so smart, but i will try 11:10:25 kilon: make sure you don't miss 3.2.1 11:11:00 thanks again , reading it now 11:11:41 I assume I must read the hyperspec inside out since it applies for all common lisp implementation 11:11:56 it does 11:12:23 kilon: you can get away with carefully reading good books. the spec is normative, but not an easy read. 11:12:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:13:23 you never know I have found difficult to read book easy and easy to read book difficult in the past, brain works in mysterious ways 11:16:55 by the way you were correct that I did not use proper terminology, think is I am greek and in greek the word "command" ("entoli") is a basic computer term so I made the assumption it was widely used in English speaking countried too, I was suprised when I googled it that it does not and is only associated with terminal and command line prompts 11:17:35 and yes in Greek text , the "command" term is used to describe everything associate with a programming language 11:17:39 told ya so! 11:17:47 kilon: welcome to the wonderful world of "Lost in Translation" 11:18:12 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 11:18:16 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ivafezvcinngzxzl] has left #lisp 11:18:48 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-tooqszvvtkrrsguz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:19:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.52.241] has joined #lisp 11:19:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.52.241] has quit [Changing host] 11:19:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:19:16 p_l: lesson learned :D 11:19:17 leo2007 [~leo@111.194.94.220] has joined #lisp 11:19:40 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.183.88] has quit [Read error: 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[~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:11:54 n 12:12:52 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:14:06 krrrcks_ [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has joined #lisp 12:16:32 for those interested: i solved my ccl on windows32 problem with postmodern (#ccl guys helped): http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/postmodern-devel/2012-March/001007.html 12:17:33 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-142-197.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:18:24 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:19:01 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.183.88] has joined #lisp 12:19:15 now thats old school debugging 12:26:53 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-otbvslljfvxzsxva] has joined #lisp 12:28:40 -!- crypto_ is now known as z0 12:28:41 -!- z0 is now known as z0d 12:28:50 -!- z0d [~z0d@q.notresp.com] has quit [Changing host] 12:28:50 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 12:28:57 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@CPE-124-183-88-10.lns13.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Bye] 12:30:16 mathrick [~mathrick@128.65.66.180] has joined #lisp 12:32:35 soxx` [~user@h-73-200.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 12:33:46 -!- TDT [~user@50-83-108-248.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:34:58 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.194.94.220] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.94.1] 12:35:16 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:37:01 cafesofie [~user@ool-18e4c9a0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:09 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.183.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:41:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:41:08 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-85.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:45:06 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d012c0d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:23 I quite liked it 12:46:28 hi 12:51:26 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:29 -!- kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:55:25 leo2007 [~leo@123.123.252.10] has joined #lisp 12:56:50 deech [~user@99.126.111.162] has joined #lisp 12:57:54 kwmiebach [kwmiebach@vps-6813.united-hoster.de] has joined #lisp 12:58:25 Hi all, is there a way to save REPL input into a file. For instance if I re-define the function "foo" at the REPL, the change is in this image but the code is lost. 12:59:20 deech: It's far better to write functions in a file and send them to Lisp with a command of some sort. In slime it's C-c C-c. 12:59:43 deech: But there are some hoops you can jump through to save repl input, like "IBCL" 12:59:48 deech: and DRIBBLE 13:00:04 but, don't do that 13:00:46 No, don't. 13:01:35 The use-case is to tweak things like dimension numbers for a UI. I want a rectangle that's X by Y and I tweak X and Y at the REPL because I get immediate feedback but forget to copy-paste the one that worked into a file. 13:01:57 deech: Don't do that. 13:02:03 deech: if you work off a file in the first place, you'll not forget. 13:02:07 you can get immediate feedback by doing C-c C-c from your source file. 13:02:39 Try DESCRIBE on the function in order to recover the code. 13:02:54 sykopomp: Ah, I didn't know I get immediate feedback from C-c C-c I thought I'd have to load it and then re-run some command on the REPL. 13:03:02 no 13:03:02 deech: nope 13:03:18 lakatos [~lakatos@w5.uaic.ro] has joined #lisp 13:03:44 well, i don't see deech saying he's using SLIME :/ 13:03:53 jdz: I am :) 13:03:54 then it's time to start 13:04:02 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 13:04:03 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 13:04:21 Thanks for all your help! 13:04:27 happy hacking 13:05:02 -!- deech [~user@99.126.111.162] has left #lisp 13:05:21 BOOM! 13:06:55 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.183.88] has joined #lisp 13:06:58 -!- lakatos [~lakatos@w5.uaic.ro] has quit [Client Quit] 13:07:10 inaimathi [~inaimathi@bas1-toronto61-1279436200.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:07:30 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Client Quit] 13:08:45 vervic [~vervic@e212-237.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:08:56 -!- vervic [~vervic@e212-237.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Client Quit] 13:09:06 Can anyone tell me what am I doing wrong here? I just got this result in the REPL: 13:09:22 (defparameter test (make-hash-table)) ;; => TEST 13:09:34 (setf (gethash "one" test) 1) ;; => 1 13:09:48 (gethash "one" test") ;; => NIL NIL 13:09:53 oopa 13:09:53 inaimathi: You have to specify that you want #'equal as your test. 13:09:54 inaimathi: you should use a test that compares strings properly in make-hash-table. 13:10:08 equal or equalp are the useful ones for strings. 13:10:11 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-221-7.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:10:17 I seel 13:10:26 you mean seal? 13:10:26 *Xach* frequently makes (defun make-string-table (&key case-sensitive) ...) 13:10:27 and, apparently, can't spell to save my life today 13:10:33 :P 13:11:54 lakatos [~lakatos@w5.uaic.ro] has joined #lisp 13:12:07 Yup, that works. Any idea why the Hyperspec example would imply that 'eql would work properly? http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_has.htm#make-hash-table 13:12:34 'eql does work properly. 13:12:54 It's just a matter of understand what 'eql means. 13:13:14 inaimathi: i'm looking at the example now and it is crystal clear 13:13:23 facepalm 13:13:31 inaimathi: the example produces the same results as yours 13:13:40 Yup, that was entirely a pebcak error 13:13:56 Man, this "reading" is good stuff. I should try it sometime. 13:14:10 It's overrated. 13:14:10 although it can return 1 as well 13:14:11 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@128.65.66.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:14:16 after trying the "reading" thing, try out "comprehension", too :) 13:16:19 dekuked [~user@pool-108-7-203-109.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:04 Although, personally, I think that CL gets strings wrong. 13:18:03 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 13:18:11 Hunh. There's a nearby town called Hygiene. Wonder if they have a Scheme user group. 13:18:35 They might have a problem. 13:19:09 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:19:55 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:20:48 -!- solussd [~solussd@108.167.2.53] has quit [Quit: solussd] 13:21:05 solussd [~solussd@108.167.2.53] has joined #lisp 13:22:04 Zhivago: strings as vectors of characters? 13:22:20 we humans, we optimize. so much info out there, even narrow specialists, can't possible read in-depth everything related to the subject. Since books have some kind organization, skimming through them to find relevant parts is fine 13:22:43 key is to kind of bootstrap oneself through a tipping point, where you can trust you judgement enough as to which parts to skip 13:23:11 A lot of lispers I know got started in scheme as the bootstrap 13:23:20 and then, you know, they wanted to write software 13:23:25 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:23:37 rimshot 13:23:49 with a nuke 13:24:04 dlowe: Yes. 13:24:16 dlowe: Or, rather, mutable vectors. 13:24:29 To be fair, I hear Racket is pretty good in terms of facilities, though, if you want to attach your fortunes to a single implementation. 13:24:44 If they were immutable and didn't involve characters, that would be a great improvement. 13:25:05 dlowe: iirc it's common that if you agree with being locked to single implementation, scheme was doable 13:25:32 Zhivago: "didn't involve characters" ? 13:25:35 -!- solussd [~solussd@108.167.2.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:25:57 fe[nl]ix: perhaps he means treating lists of integers as strings. 13:26:06 fe: Yes. Characters are the big problem of strings. 13:26:22 I'd rather than strings were just composed of substrings. 13:26:28 heow [~heow@208.72.159.219] has joined #lisp 13:26:31 s/than/that/ 13:26:46 *jdz* looking up the verb "rather" 13:27:07 Zhivago: that's a rope what you're looking for, right? 13:27:07 then we encode letters using various numbers of empty substrings? 13:27:11 But allowing a decomposition into a sequence of octets would be ok. 13:27:27 A rope would be one option. 13:27:56 I find it rather useful to be able to memcpy a string, or even DMA into it 13:27:57 dlowe: why not? have an empty string as empty string, and a successor ... nothing more is needed. probably not practical, though. 13:27:58 But anything that got rid of characters would be enough. 13:28:11 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@100.Red-88-11-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:28:21 Zhivago: so, IIUYC, a rope made of bytes? 13:28:34 flip: Don't care what it's made of. 13:28:55 -!- heow [~heow@208.72.159.219] has left #lisp 13:29:04 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:29:07 as long as it's not bytes 13:29:13 err, characters* 13:29:27 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 13:29:28 Yes. Characters are the great design flaw of these ancient languages. 13:29:32 I think the character abstraction is worth having, but I wouldn't have minded immutable ropes 13:29:41 The character abstraction doesn't work. 13:29:44 I'm not overly inconvenienced, in any case 13:29:59 Zhivago: I see it working all over the place. 13:30:07 Only in some places. 13:30:16 It doesn't work in unicode systems, for example. 13:30:31 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-97-192.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:33 what 13:30:42 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:31:20 What people consider to be a character is, in unicode, a combining character sequence. 13:31:25 -!- lakatos [~lakatos@w5.uaic.ro] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:31:29 Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:38 that's irrelevant 13:31:43 Right. We abstract that bit out so we don't have to think about it 13:32:09 You can only abstract that bit out if you represent all of your text as strings. 13:32:47 hey, somewhat off-topic, but where do you guys get your tech/programming/lisp news? 13:32:49 Since you need a string to carry a combining character sequence. 13:33:04 What people consider to be a character is a concern only to graphical systems, not to a search engine, for example 13:33:06 dekuked: Planet Lisp, lisp.reddit.com 13:33:26 fe: That's complete and utter nonsense. 13:33:38 how so ? 13:33:48 fe: Search engines need to decompose documents and queries into features sets. 13:34:12 fe: In order to do that, they need to be concerned about what people consider to be meaningful units of text. 13:34:52 fe[nl]ix: actually, consider case-insensitivity 13:35:05 fe: Consider Korean text for example -- morphological boundaries can occur within characters. 13:35:37 fe: Consider Thai text -- characters need to be composed out of multiple code-points to be meaningfully handled. 13:36:08 fe: Consider the mapping between Simplified and Traditional Chinese characters. 13:36:16 that's what unicode normal forms are for 13:36:22 fe: Wrong. 13:36:32 people want to switch between simplified and traditional? ew. 13:36:32 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:36:36 fe: That's what unicode combinig character sequences are for. 13:36:47 dlowe: It's useful in search. 13:36:48 I guess I shouldn't be surprised. 13:36:50 yeah 13:37:13 dlower: Particularly when you get the Japanese variants involved which are a pain in the are to type with anything else. 13:38:37 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:38:51 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:10 not to mention that thanks to CJK common mapping you got overlapping codepoints, so in order to figure out if the character is korean, simplified chinese, traditional chinese, or japanese, you need extra data about context 13:39:43 that's interesting 13:40:21 or just forget about it and use english and ASCII 13:40:35 yeah, because unicode encodes "glyphs" not "letters" 13:40:36 Ascii isn't sufficient for English. 13:40:42  ("hito" - human in japanese)<--- iirc makes one codepoint... common to 4 different glyphs 13:40:56 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@100.Red-88-11-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:05 p_l: That's a feature, mostly. 13:41:07 rme [~rme@50.43.146.151] has joined #lisp 13:41:24 p_l: same in chinese, although it's pronounced "ren" 13:41:30 p_l: The annoying bits are the variants, such as the Japanese variants of 'black' and 'diagram'. 13:42:10 Zhivago: for search one would need more complex normal forms than the official ones, but still that doesn't make current strings useless 13:42:57 fe: The problem with current strings is characters. If you never use characters, then they're reasonably ok, but inefficient. 13:42:58 and I can't see how there could be some different data structure that is better than strings in every conceivable case 13:43:20 for what I do they're very efficient 13:43:22 fe: This is why newer languages tend to not have a character type. 13:43:35 Unlikely, since you pay for their mutability. 13:43:49 pay what ? 13:44:12 The overhead of every string being a distinct object. 13:44:34 Which makes composition and decomposition expensive. 13:44:42 there are symbols, if you want them 13:45:03 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-63.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 13:45:12 hmmm, perl6 has this: "Perl6::Str tries to solve this problem by introducing a string object with an API similar to that of Perl 6 (as far as possible), and emulating common operations such as substr, chomp and chop at the grapheme level." 13:46:31 Symbols have their own problems, such as carrying around a load of crap, and not being garbage collected. 13:47:10 they are GCed 13:47:21 Zhivago: do you have a library that does strings right? 13:47:34 making strings identical is not without costs too 13:47:51 jdz: Javascript does a decent job, python is a reasonably close second. 13:49:01 i don't see how avoding the term "character" and using integers instead solves anything... 13:49:22 Zhivago: which python ? 13:49:27 kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-183-183.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:49:51 vervic [~vervic@e212-237.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:49:58 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:50:14 jdz: It avoids any interfaces processing text in terms of non-strings. 13:50:34 jdz: isn't it mostly to avoid confusion? In Unicode, there isn't really anything called "character". They only talk about codepoints 13:50:39 jdz: Pretty much any interface that deals with a character is fundamentally broken. 13:51:01 meanwhile 14-year who thinks character is someone you play in games, is hacking together next facebook in PHP 13:51:02 loke: A combining character sequence is what unicode refers to 'character' as. 13:51:10 boonrumor [~voxrumor@apo.aweber.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:13 Zhivago: yes, same as using integers instead 13:51:17 Zhivago: But do they actually call it a "character"? 13:51:42 jdz: Fortunately no-one uses integers for text processing, because that's just silly. 13:51:59 Erlang does. 13:52:01 :) 13:52:08 C does :-) 13:52:25 -!- vervic [~vervic@e212-237.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has left #lisp 13:52:26 CL does! 13:52:27 plain lists with integers in them, too! 13:53:14 (subtypep 'character 'integer)  NIL 13:53:17 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-25-16.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:19 TDT [~user@50-83-108-248.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:30 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:53:37 (typep (char-int character) 'integer) -> T 13:54:10 Fine, a character has a numeric representation. That's like saying that lists are string because they have a string representatoin. 13:54:14 JavaScript has characters, since there are String.charAt and String.charCodeAt 13:54:30 Java has String.codePointAt() :-) 13:54:38 jdz: What does "Hello".charAt(0) return? 13:54:51 Zhivago: a character! 13:54:58 A string. 13:55:13 Zhivago: documentation says: «Returns the specified character from a string.» 13:55:45 i'm yet to find the definition of what a character is, though 13:56:05 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-63.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:56:07 jdz: It's a string that corresponds to a unicode code-point. 13:56:07 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0E4C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:56:22 Javascript provides a minimal decomposition of strings, which is regrettable, but still ... 13:56:36 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:57:08 snearch [~snearch@f053008068.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:57:12 Returns a String containing the character at position pos in the String resulting from converting this object to a 13:57:23 String. 13:57:36 _schulte_ [~eschulte@ip98-169-80-239.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:48 x.charAt(pos) is equal to the result of 13:57:58 x.substring(pos, pos+1) 13:58:13 Anyhow. It's an improvement, but not perfect. 13:58:23 http://paste.lisp.org/display/128346 13:58:29 perfect library writing time! 13:59:26 loke: If you read that definition, you'll see that characters are all context dependent. 13:59:42 Zhivago: that's my point 13:59:46 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:59:56 loke: In some contexts "foetid" has 6 characters, and in others 5. 14:00:01 Unicode themselves can't settle on a single definition, so it's no surprise #lisp can't either :-) 14:00:14 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-63.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 14:00:19 Good. If you accept that, then it's clear that a character type is incoherent. 14:01:15 Zhivago: Sure. I never argued otherwise. In fact, I agree with you fully. 14:01:50 I just said that CL has a character type that is technically not an integer. I never said it was good (I think it's pretty bad, but an unfortunate consequence of history) 14:02:29 The way moden CL's handle it is pretty much as good as they could. A character represents a Unicode codepoint. Anything else would have been more suboptimal 14:02:33 Zhivago: no, only that different use cases require different approaches 14:03:02 fe: Meaningless. 14:03:13 it puzzles me how people(like you it would seem) are so obsessed with finding universal solutions 14:04:46 fe[nl]ix: really? you've not had enough problems dealing with text in languages other than English (well, containing characters outside the 8859-1 set)? 14:04:49 The puzzlement is probably due to lack of experience with the real world. 14:04:58 benny [~benny@i577A2991.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:05:17 there would be so much less suffering if some people did not assume everybody in the world only uses English... 14:05:31 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-63.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:06:06 *sykopomp* always thought CL had pretty fantastic unicode support. 14:06:25 sykopomp: you can't please everybody 14:06:31 Can't even case-fold properly. 14:06:32 nobody can, though 14:06:45 jdz: you can't please Zhivago* 14:07:10 What exactly is the problem? 14:07:20 Characters. 14:07:23 I think everyoe who has worked with internationalisation and Unicode for any significant amount of time tends to agree with Zhivago 14:07:34 If you can have plain ASCII characters in CL then there is no efficiency problem, right? 14:07:38 People who hasn't just don't understand the problems 14:07:56 Fortunately characters are slowly disappearing from programming languages as people figure this out. 14:08:31 I don't really understand the problem. Perhaps if useful code were written to solve the existing problem, it would be clearer. 14:09:02 i'm sure Zhivago has a library that handles strings corretly, but just won't share 14:09:26 the secret sauce that solves all our problems? 14:09:28 If a language only has Unicode support and no way to process ASCII (a very useful subset), then it seems questionable. 14:09:47 problems i didn't even know I had :( 14:09:57 fasta_: ASCII is a strict subset of Unicode, so if you can process Unicode you can process ASCII 14:10:09 loke: I just said that... 14:10:19 loke: please make an attempt to understand what I said. 14:10:29 but what you said doesn't make sense! 14:10:40 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-63.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 14:10:44 stassats: I am sure that someone here understands what I said. 14:10:49 It would indeed be very questionable to have Unicode support and not be able to process ASCII, because you would have to redefine what "have Unicode support" means. 14:11:04 japanese guys seems to write excellent software without all this confusion (judging based on wanderlust).. they have no problem mixing mental models of using punctuation as markup, while separating unicode/multibyte character strings with them, ie folder names 14:11:20 By that I mean that there is only an unicode API and not one to work just with what in C are chars. 14:11:36 It seemed kind of obvious, no? 14:11:47 maxm-: well, have you tried interoperating with Japanese? A lot of them still don't use Unicode 14:11:48 maxm: Sounds like you've confused unicode with an encoding. 14:11:59 Japanese is most fun when you have shift-jis. 14:12:00 urandom__ [~user@p548A4896.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:03 yes technically you can get in trouble treating multibyte string as array of chars, but really, if you go around scanning for ':' then split the string based on that, very likely you end up with 2 valid multibyte strings 14:12:27 Or euc-jp, which is ambiguous with euc-kr and euc-cn. 14:12:29 ppl seem to have this mental model that when accessing strings by indexes, they only do it for ascii chars 14:12:29 fasta_: no, and i still don't really understand you 14:12:38 not ascii but basically lower 256 chars 14:13:01 Zhivago: yeah, maxm just convinced me that you're right. There's no good reason to have a character type. 14:13:35 stassats: unicode requires more than 1 byte to represent. Lots of data in the world only uses ASCII. If you _have_ to use more bytes than needed, then the programming language hinders development. 14:13:41 existence of huge japanese / asian web seems to disprove your point 14:13:51 stassats: I am making a trivial point. 14:13:59 fasta: Unicode isn't an encoding. 14:14:13 fasta_: that's encoding, programming languages use whatever they want internally 14:14:17 *maxm-* has no beef in it, just saying that people found practical ways of dealing with this stuff, and have no problems.. 14:14:24 dlowe: share your enlightenment. I still don't get it. 14:15:17 Zhivago: unicode is a mapping from code point to pretty glyph, right? 14:15:30 maxm: Haven't processed quite a lot of the japanese / asian web, you're wrong. 14:15:42 sykopomp: it's a difference between the mindset of "very likely" and "with certainty". A lot of application software operates according to the former assumption 14:15:44 There are vast tracts of malencoded documents. 14:16:06 If a document is malencoded, you should return 'learn to encode correctly'. 14:16:19 You shouldn't even attempt to do anything with it. 14:16:34 that's not an option a lot of times. 14:16:35 fasta_: that's suboptimal for usability 14:16:44 right! lets just ignore the web, it is all wrong. 14:16:46 fasta_: unicode is a mapping of integers to glyphs, not octets to glyphs 14:16:48 dlowe: long term it is the best solution. 14:16:49 in fact, the whole world is all wrong. 14:16:55 It's also not easy to determine if a document is euc-jp or euc-cn except by statistical analysis. 14:17:12 Which is why unicode is such a big deal. 14:17:30 fasta_: i've heard in SBCL, for instance, characters are represented by way more than 8 bits; i can still deal with ASCII with no problem. So I really don't get the point you're trying to make. 14:17:32 fasta_: not really. people will abandon technologies entirely if they aren't usable enough 14:17:54 jdz: by 21 bits 14:18:03 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@123.122.97.8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:03 stassats: thanks! 14:18:04 jdz: if they are, then the language is crippled already. 14:18:20 fasta_: ok, goodbye. 14:18:20 anyway. hacking is more fun than grousing about real world/technology interactions 14:18:22 jdz: or rather the implementation. 14:18:48 fasta_: you are saying nonsense 14:19:02 I don't see the problem with using characters to represent strings on the user side. What's wrong with having a character-based internal representation, and functionality to handle a variety of encodings for communication with the outside world? 14:19:25 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.92.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:19:27 sykopomp: let me reflect that back on you: what's wrong with not having characters? 14:19:35 characters are convenient, typed objects 14:20:06 if I take a character in isolation, i can distinguish it from an integer, or a string 14:20:20 stassats: no, I am not. If in assembly language I can express exactly what I want, and I cannot do so in SBCL, then SBCL is strictly less flexible and less optimal. A programming language shouldn't hurt the machine's native abilities. 14:20:29 if you have a string, you can distinguish it between strings of length 1 and other strings 14:20:44 drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:50 Zhivago's idea of having 1-dimensional "strings" as substitute for characters solves nothing. You still want to write a parser to parse "10" into number 10, you have to have some way of converting "1" to 1 14:21:02 -!- Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:21:14 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:21:20 dlowe: a string of length 1 is a string of length 1. I'm not about to start representing integers as arrays of 1 value. 14:21:23 so you'll have (code-point-from-string "1") returning 1 as opposite to (code-point-from-char (aref "1" 0)) 14:21:23 maxm: That's easy -- have a mapping. 14:21:30 fasta_: still no sense 14:21:34 maxm: Wrong. 14:21:40 stassats: well, that's your problem. 14:21:43 Have a mapping from "1" to 1, etc. 14:22:00 fasta_: no, it's your problem. 14:22:02 maxm-: what about digits in other scripts? Not everyone uses arabic numerals 14:22:04 in the end you renamed foo to bar, but the need to have these attributes is not eliminated by rename.. So what if its now string-aracter instead of character 14:22:13 jdz: because? 14:22:13 dlowe: I consider that an ambiguity with little to no value. 14:22:32 fasta_: because you're talking nonsense, and poeple here don't have to endure it. 14:22:43 fasta_: arguing against obvious isn't worth it, so i won't 14:22:59 dlowe: thats "what my aunt had a beard" type argument 14:23:24 maxm: You're gibbering. 14:23:32 maxm-: it's a practical reality for many people 14:23:41 *maxm-* does not care if predator's alien's can't use my programming language 14:23:48 just because it's not *your* problem doesn't mean it's not *a* problem 14:23:54 maxm: If they're strings, then they can represent the required text. 14:24:01 maxm: A character can't. 14:24:20 jdz: 21 bits is more than the minimum required numbers of bits. As such, it is not optimal. As such the implementation is crippled. What can you possibly not understand about that argument? 14:24:21 dlowe: what culture on earth does not use arabic numerals? cmon, don't give me "blah blah such and such tribe in amazon" 14:24:31 maxm-: Chinese 14:24:37 maxm-: Japanese 14:24:37 yeah. duh. 14:24:54 *maxm-* looks at nikkey quote 14:24:58 dlowe: Arabic and Hebrew have different characters for the numbers 14:25:00 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:25:00 I see characters as glyphs, and encoding those glyphs depends entirely on the external encoding used -- and that encoding is only worth doing on I/O, not inside my program. 14:25:14 fasta_: the argument is false 14:25:25 *maxm-* looks at the volume dial on his outdated sony stereo 14:25:32 fasta_: you used more words than necessary to make your point, so you are crippled. what's so hard to understand about this argument? 14:25:34 looks like 1 to 10 to me 14:25:37 stassats: that means that at one point in my reasoning, you must have found a flaw. Where? 14:25:41 maxm-: the one made for americans? that's very clever of you. 14:26:04 fasta_: every point 14:26:20 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.184] has joined #lisp 14:26:20 kushal [~kdas@114.143.162.9] has joined #lisp 14:26:21 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.162.9] has quit [Changing host] 14:26:21 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:26:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_numerals 14:26:43 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:47 stassats: so, show me wrong then. 14:27:04 dlowe: so you saying when a japanese guy writes todo list to buy some eggs,he uses "buy eggs" I don't mean "ten" as in word 10, but do they actually use different number system? 14:27:05 http://danielschereck.com/wp2002arabia/arabicimages2/text-arabic-numbers0-9.jpg 14:27:08 if so I'm mind blown 14:27:24 maxm-: Yes, they do. "ten" looks like a plus sign 14:27:39 http://www.wikihow.com/Count-to-Ten-in-Japanese 14:27:42 maxm-: actually, if you decide to go with "different number systems", then welcome to the crackpot that are european languages 14:28:04 stassats: yes? 14:28:24 but you don't expect that to work the for loop in your favorite programming language right? 14:28:27 iirc french has base-60 somewhere, germany got the weird base-12 going for first 12 + PDP-endian format, etc. 14:28:39 Danish has base-20 14:28:54 *maxm-* has flashes of russian algol like thing they tried to introduce in schools, where all the operators were in cyricllic 14:29:06 maxm-: common among logo versions 14:29:11 English has that weird base-100 thing. 14:29:38 Try this search -- http://www.google.com/search?q=%ce%c4%bb%af 14:29:51 sykopomp: actually, english got base-12 in first 12 numbers, decimal got tacked on it seems 14:29:55 but anyway, you may have confused me, but from practical standpoint my position is unchanged, its not a big deal, and having characters is fine 14:30:04 fasta_: i have no stake in arguing with you 14:30:07 *maxm-* goes back to coding 14:30:17 maxm: Chinese traditionally uses numbers with place markers. 14:30:26 stassats: at no point did you argue. 14:30:34 stassats: all you said was 'nonsense and wrong'. 14:30:39 maxm-: "having characters" works fine, as you say, but only because you rarely (if ever) actually do anything with individual characters. 14:30:46 maxm: e.g., 10 10,000s 5 100s. 14:30:54 stassats: perhaps you should consult a dictionary on the notion of 'arguing'. 14:31:07 Having characters works fine if you never use them for text processing. 14:31:16 that's correct, i don't want to argue 14:31:29 The search I gave above shows that there's plenty of malencoded documents around still. 14:31:48 Perhaps it's better to argue here, now that arguing on c.l.l has been completely ruined in the last couple of days :-) 14:31:48 stassats: that fits your Wikipedia role perfectly! 14:31:54 Having characters is fine if you're doing text processing. 14:32:10 stassats: I bet you always delete useful articles. 14:32:21 That's a search for the chinese word 'culture' encoded in euc-cn, but interpreted in utf-8. 14:32:23 fasta_: go away 14:33:49 fasta_: the point is, Common Lisp implementations work with superset of ASCII character repertoire, while still keeping the ability to work with ASCII. in what fucking dimension are you living to consider this to be a deficiency? 14:34:40 jdz: it is his dimension. consider leaving it at that. 14:34:46 jdz: In that it doesn't handle text properly, because text can't be handled properly in terms of individual characters. 14:35:02 I disagree :\ 14:35:05 jdz: functionality wise it is not a deficiency. It a deficiency when there is no way to say "This is ASCII, only use 1 byte for its representation.". 14:35:12 syko: Yes, but you're wrong. 14:35:22 ascii is actually only 7 bits 14:35:24 Zhivago: really, when all you care about and have is ASCII? 14:35:24 external strings of bytes can't be handled properly in terms of individual characters. 14:35:34 but you can still have a character representation for glyphs for internal programs. 14:35:37 have you seen that ludicrous display last night? 14:35:38 stassats: and a byte is not 8 bits. 14:35:39 I still don't see what's wring with that. 14:35:40 fasta_: 7 bits, get your facts right! 14:35:45 Internal strings of text can't be handled proper in terms of individual characters, either. 14:35:50 jdz: a byte is not 8 bits. 14:35:56 Zhivago: and I don't see why. 14:36:03 fasta_: really, do tell me 14:36:04 And I was oversimplifying. 14:36:10 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has left #lisp 14:36:13 fasta_: you can have 7 14:36:30 sykopomp: Because there is no coherent, universal set of characters for text. 14:36:32 I can match on #\: when splitting a string. 14:36:36 jdz: how about you answer the f*cking question? 14:36:39 fasta_: you can have arrays with element type (unsigned-byte 7) in Common Lisp, let's see you get it inC 14:36:44 Zhivago: so? 14:36:53 sukopomp: But you can't match on a thai letter when splitting a string, like that. 14:37:01 Zhivago: why not? 14:37:10 H4ns: ? 14:37:14 sykopomp: Because thai letters require multiple characters. 14:37:16 jdz: ok, so you could just have said 'in CL there is a way to work with such data, namely via (unsigned-byte 7)'. 14:37:18 fasta_: sorry, i missed your question in the sea of nonsense 14:37:29 sykopomp: There is a real issue. Say you're writing an editor, and the buffer is a CL string. Say there's an e with accent acute in the buffer. That can be either #\u+00e9 or #\u+0065 + #\u+0301 (combining acute accent). What should forward-char do? 14:37:29 fasta_: nope, that's besides the point 14:37:47 ahhh, the unicode combining characters. 14:37:57 jdz: all I asked for is an API where you can know that CL will only use the minimum requires space to process a known ASCII only document. 14:38:08 Which brings us back to the point that characters are fine, if you never use them for text processing. 14:38:25 fasta_: if you say the document contains characters, then characters you would get. 14:38:26 So you might as well get rid of them, so that ignorant people don't use them for text processing and fuck things up. 14:38:35 fasta_: and it would still work with ASCII 14:38:48 jdz: but it would use 21 bits and not 8. 14:38:53 fasta_: 7 14:38:55 jdz: or 7, whatever. 14:38:58 I'd still like to be able to distinguish between subsequences and individual item groups. 14:39:06 fasta_: would you get it in C? 14:39:15 fasta_: sorry to break it to you, but CL doesn't guarantee how anything should be implemented 14:39:21 would it be possible to treat a character type as character groups, and distinguish those from subsequences? 14:39:25 stassats: fine, SBCL then. 14:39:29 fasta_: would you use only 7 bits (minimum required) in C, in assembler? 14:39:31 The Unicode guys have a notion of a "grapheme cluster". 14:39:38 syko: And you can only do that by defining a set of what you consider to be 'individual items'. 14:39:41 jdz: no, you would use 8. 14:39:45 fasta_: why? 14:39:47 and SBCL has simple-base-strings, which use 8-bits, but other implementations don't have it and have no problems 14:40:00 syko: And that will differ from use-case to use-case. 14:40:08 fasta_: by your definition, it's a waste of 1 bit per character! 14:40:09 jdz: you could use 7, but it requires more arithmetic operations and likely more registers. 14:40:47 actually... does the standard actually says that you have to support ASCII in internal representation? 14:40:49 jdz: also mostly documents don't encode anything in the last bit. 14:41:19 jdz: but you could create documents that would assume you process it in a different way. 14:41:26 Zhivago: what cases would grapheme clusters not work for? 14:41:27 p_l: Just a subset of the ascii character set (as opposed to encoding). 14:41:32 jdz: anyway, you seem to be a good troll. 14:41:56 syko: Grapheme clusters are fine, but there is no universal set of them. 14:42:05 syko: So you can't map them to characters. 14:42:22 Zhivago: yeah, just checked. the only guaranteed thing is ordering 14:42:42 Zhivago: I'm wondering whether it would be possible to represent strings as sequences of grapheme clusters, which may be individual characters, or multiple characters. 14:42:55 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:43:02 fasta_: it was your reasoning that using any other number of bits than 7 to represent an ASCII character is wasteful 14:43:15 fasta_: so go back under your bridge now, please 14:43:27 jdz: and in fact it is. 14:43:35 jdz: it wastes energy. 14:43:36 fasta_: yeah, shoo 14:43:40 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:43:51 syko: Sure, but there's no point. 14:44:11 Zhivago: Really, I'm just uncomfortable about having an ambiguity between substrings and individual items in it. 14:44:12 fasta_: actually it doesn't... manipulating 8 bit quantity is faster than manipulating 7bit quantity 14:44:22 syko: You can just decompose a string into a head consisting of one of the things you consider to be a useful grapheme cluster today, and the tail. 14:44:35 p_l: manipulating 8 bits when you only need 7 is wasteful by definition. 14:44:38 I feel like (elt string 0) -> subseq is a violation of a contract. 14:44:41 sykopomp: Why does there need to be individual items? 14:44:47 p_l: it is just that hardware happens to use 8. 14:45:08 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:46:40 -!- soxx` [~user@h-73-200.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:46:53 Zhivago: "the thai character represented by this sequence of characters" 14:47:03 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.92.192] has joined #lisp 14:47:08 I'd like to be able to count said characters, too. 14:47:25 sykopomp: But there are multiple decompositions. 14:47:48 sykopomp: Take Korean for example -- a character is a syllable, but it's also decomposable into letters. 14:48:17 sykopomp: Usually you want to operate in terms of syllables, but morphological boundaries can occur within a syllable. 14:48:22 sykopomp: is it not that you want to be able to know how large the area is that the string or substring needs to be printed? 14:48:35 sykopomp: And at those times you want to decompose the text differently. 14:48:41 sykopomp: or what do you need the "character count" for? 14:48:57 H4ns: that's one use case, yes. 14:49:21 I'd like to have a sensible, consistent way to compare string length. Maybe that's not possible. 14:49:29 sykopomp: under the line of the argument here, counting characters is wrong. 14:49:36 Why do you care about string length? 14:49:57 Zhivago: wouldn't that be taken care of by representing characters as clusters, and letters as characters within that cluster? 14:50:00 sykopomp: and i tend to agree. it is useful to know about sizes in term of screen estate or storage. but character count? 14:50:11 If you want to know how much space it would take to print, walk down it, decomposing into whatever maps into glyphs, and accumulating the widths. 14:50:32 sykopomp: No, because you can then decompose the letters further. 14:50:49 stassats: simple-base-string doesn't allow all characters in the 8-bit range ... (map 'simple-base-string #'code-char '(65 200 65)) fail. 14:50:50 sykopomp: What's hard to grasp is that there is no universal, minimal decomposition of text, that is useful in all cases. 14:50:58 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:51:00 this just keeps getting more complicated, doesn't it? 14:51:00 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 14:51:11 reb: ascii is 7-bit 14:51:12 Zhivago: let's be off topic in ##c 14:51:12 It just seems like that to English speakers, because English uses a degenerate alphabet. 14:51:25 tomodo: relevant to my interests 14:51:33 Many English letters are represented by multiple characters, for example. 14:52:05 So people are used to dealing with a super-decomposed representation, and ignoring the composition that they do when processing it. 14:52:11 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 14:52:31 e.g., the letter thorn is now represented by the digram 'th'. 14:53:54 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 14:54:45 Riz_ [~Riz_@75.57.171.22] has joined #lisp 14:56:27 -!- Riz_Lappy [~Riz_@adsl-75-57-166-85.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:58:09 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:04:35 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:04:53 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:06:07 -!- kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-183-183.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:06:21 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:06:34 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-402261.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:06:44 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:07:02 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 15:07:57 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 15:08:38 -!- inaimathi [~inaimathi@bas1-toronto61-1279436200.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 15:09:38 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:09:38 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:10:59 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 15:14:02 lisp noob here: how would I test two conditions before "executing" something? i.e. if TRUE and NOT 1 do this 15:14:49 (and a b) might be useful. 15:14:56 drone: (ql:quickload 'drakma) (drakma:http-request "http://gigamonkeys.com/book") is a good way to do that. 15:15:33 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:15:35 sykopomp: so just go read a whole book? got it. 15:15:40 zhivago: thanks 15:15:48 drone: or just a simple, basic introduction to the language. 15:15:53 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:15:53 drone: It's a good book, and free, and will help you get over the hump of the basics. 15:15:58 drone: which were your failed attempts? 15:16:24 jdz: using a cond, but as i understand it that operates much like a case statement 15:16:59 drone: nope, it acts like nested IF expressions 15:17:44 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:17:45 drone: maybe you want (when ) 15:18:08 jdz: I can go ahead and stick two conditions in there? 15:18:21 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 15:19:49 drone: yes, combining them with AND if they both have to be true, or OR if only one of them has to be true 15:20:02 drone: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-standard-control-constructs.html has a breakdown of how to compose things like that. 15:20:34 jdz xach: that was what I was looking for, thanks. 15:22:55 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2991.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:23:59 wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has joined #lisp 15:25:20 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-25-16.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:26:06 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:14 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-63.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 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[~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:41:52 a noob question, but what does the f stand for in setf, getf and so on? field? form? 15:42:00 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:44:14 "place" 15:44:33 The f is silent. 15:44:38 fplace 15:44:53 heh, ok 15:47:05 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-otbvslljfvxzsxva] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:48:02 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-20.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 15:48:08 Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:37 i believe someone linked to a discussion they had in the beginnings of common lisp, about removing the f 15:48:37 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.36.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49:28 -!- krrrcks_ is now known as krrrcks 15:50:51 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120310173008]] 15:56:13 common flisp? 15:57:17 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:59:00 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:59:58 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-402261.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:18 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-402261.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:01:13 -!- sbelmont [~user@114.205.86.94] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:28 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053008068.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 16:01:33 mgodshall_ [~quassel@76.161.200.249] has joined #lisp 16:03:01 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-402261.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03:07 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:03:46 -!- splittist [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:03:53 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:04:07 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-97-192.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:06:58 (mapcar 'reverse (reverse (maplist 'identity (reverse '(a b c d e))) 16:07:04 pro coding, I tell you 16:07:05 -!- Skola [~bas@89.184.179.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:07:41 -!- agam [~agam@c-67-188-3-174.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 16:08:14 -!- drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has quit [Quit: work] 16:08:44 )))) 16:09:12 yeah that's copy paste for you 16:09:19 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-tydbezzlkcbvrkvg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:09:26 Qworkescence: I recently did something not too entirely different to generate the potential next versions from "1.3.2", e.g. "2", "1.4", "1.3.3", "1.3.2.1" 16:09:50 it felt pretty rad 16:10:37 :) 16:11:39 vervic [~vervic@e212-237.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 16:13:31 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:14:20 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 16:17:05 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:17:56 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:20 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 16:20:05 -!- nauar [~nauar@ip235200.bcn.altecom.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 16:20:16 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.148] has joined #lisp 16:24:10 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-gbyfvybeudvxzbsz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:26:03 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:27:24 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:27:30 tomodo: you fsay that like there's fsomething weird about it 16:27:57 hehe 16:28:08 -!- jewel [~jewel@c-76-102-3-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:30:04 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:30:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.80.202] has joined #lisp 16:30:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.80.202] has quit [Changing host] 16:30:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:31:52 -!- vervic [~vervic@e212-237.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Quit: vervic] 16:31:57 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33:41 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:35:31 ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-068-128-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:41 agam [~agam@216.239.45.16] has joined #lisp 16:37:01 dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 16:38:52 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:39:33 hi, is there a portable (or ACL specific) way to get more precise information about which things/instances take the most space (starting at some root point)? or even getting a count for every distinct class would be helpful :) 16:40:24 (if someone has a snippet, else i'll do it myself) 16:41:48 agam_ [agam@nat/google/x-rmfeetkbuikwuklp] has joined #lisp 16:41:57 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 16:42:05 -!- agam [~agam@216.239.45.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:43:12 ccl has ccl:heap-utilization, but that's obviously not portable. 16:44:24 hmm, those functions look very interesting though 16:48:12 check (room) and see if it accepts any implementation specific params 16:48:19 pnq [~nick@AC810F73.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:48:29 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:48:51 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:48:56 I remember that in SBCL looking at sources for (room) one is able to come up with code to iterate all objects in memory or such 16:49:06 nope, it only gives me basic types and a lot of information about areas 16:49:20 ah okay, i don't see anything like that here :/ 16:49:43 ask ACL, if you have commercial license, thats what you pay them money for, support 16:49:51 can just as well use it 16:50:16 :) yeah i'll do that, just thought maybe this is faster 16:50:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:50:58 k thx, and i'll probably look into the sbcl stuff as well 16:52:33 -!- hugod [~user@70-36-138-124.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:52:45 setf = set form because a place is written as a form in general. 16:53:14 In (setf (car x) (cdr x)), (car x) is a form that designates the place to set. 16:55:58 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-63.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:58:26 -!- krrrcks [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has left #lisp 17:01:10 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:02:02 -!- Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:02:07 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:03:25 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:09:03 -!- Ralith 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[~ferada@dslb-088-068-128-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 18:07:34 *Fade* wonders if it would break the spec if pi was defined in terms of tau 18:08:25 -!- drone [~drone@ip68-13-152-156.om.om.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:08:56 having a TAU symbol in the CL package would, I think 18:11:01 gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-yugwpavhbvicquka] has joined #lisp 18:13:52 Fade: as the floating-point binary description of tau would have (in ieee) just the exponent changed by +1, I don't think that there'd be much practical use. 18:14:21 Nearly every CL compiler will optimize (* 2 PI) at compile time anyway. 18:15:08 my neice is just getting into trig, and I was thinking it'd be easier pedagogically to explain it in terms of tau. 18:15:47 that seems inadvisable 18:15:59 Why has pi two legs and tau one? 18:16:07 given that her formal education will still be in terms of pi 18:16:27 don't want mixed messages, etc 18:16:37 Ralith: it wouldn't matter. The point is to learn to make one's own abstractions. 18:17:05 I thought the point was to help her learn trig quickly. 18:17:13 well, since she can do the work in terms of tau and then just search replace 2pi 18:17:38 if her flailing math teacher doesn't understand the tau notation. 18:18:31 anyhow, I think i've been converted by the tau manifesto. :) 18:19:10 these are just letters 18:19:57 These are just glyphs. 2 or   18:20:32 Fare [~Fare@74.125.59.116] has joined #lisp 18:21:10 You could as well write r instead of 2r. 18:21:18 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-yugwpavhbvicquka] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:21:42 -!- totzeit1 [~kirkwood@204.15.3.100] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:22:24 AFAIK the "2*pi" tau has three legs, see http://tauday.com/images/figures/palais-tau.png 18:22:48 flip215: That's an older article. 18:22:50 -!- dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:23:10 I'd like it. 18:23:15 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@186.221.140.240] has quit [Quit: humhum] 18:23:24 flip215: tau has the benefit of being in Unicode already. 18:23:34 hartl make a pretty good argument for #\GREEK_SMALL_LETTER_TAU 18:23:52 the fact that there's already a unicode representation for it being a component. 18:24:18 -!- gigamonkey [~pseibel@adsl-99-24-218-232.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 18:26:28 why don't call it circle-circumference? 18:27:03 you mean +unit-circle-circumference+? 18:27:28 not enough words 18:27:44 pi has no wings 18:27:58 standard constants have no wings 18:29:59 pi r squared 18:30:17 tomodo: ? 18:30:24 just have (defun circle-circumference (radius) ...) 18:30:29 like EXP does 18:30:38 there's no e 18:30:45 e = mc^2 18:31:03 -!- cyphase_ is now known as cyphase 18:31:16 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@adsl-99-109-42-165.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:31:16 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 18:31:34 e^i-1=0 no? 18:31:52 true, Eulers theory 18:32:05 e^i=1 18:32:12 ^^^ 18:32:30 hugod [~user@ppp-71-139-27-225.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:03 pjb: e^i+1=0 (really, e^i=-1) 18:33:11 i looks like pi 18:33:24 stassats: IT eats a lot of pie. 18:33:47 Do you like Donald Knuth 18:33:58 if so, run this command: vlc http://stanford-online.stanford.edu/seminars/knuth/101206-knuth-500.asx 18:34:19 is he talking about lisp? 18:34:23 pi 18:36:13 hydo [~hydo@205.175.116.21] has joined #lisp 18:36:23 -!- hydo [~hydo@205.175.116.21] has quit [Client Quit] 18:39:03 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:30 -!- BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:39:43 hydo [~hydo@205.175.116.21] has joined #lisp 18:39:57 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.123.252.10] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.94.1] 18:40:00 -!- hydo [~hydo@205.175.116.21] has quit [Client Quit] 18:40:47 BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has 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[Quit: hydo] 19:23:08 kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-178-206.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:23:26 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:24:22 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 19:25:25 -!- hugod [~user@ppp-71-139-27-225.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:25:39 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:19 -!- rpgsimmaster [~rpgsimmas@system00.packetstability.com] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 19:32:43 rpgsimmaster [~rpgsimmas@system00.packetstability.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:52 -!- kai_ [~kai@f052097030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:36:02 kai_ [~kai@f052097030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:42:41 -!- pnq [~nick@AC810F73.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:44:50 chupish_ [182c5af4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.44.90.244] has joined #lisp 19:45:02 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:39 pnq [~nick@AC810F73.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:49:00 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 19:49:15 hi 19:52:21 -!- boonrumor [~voxrumor@apo.aweber.com] has quit [Quit: boonrumor] 19:54:28 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 19:56:24 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-ybsxcyccvytuseaq] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:06 anyone here involved with ELS or registered recently 20:01:18 the registration page seems a little dodgy 20:01:29 I went there two years ago. Is it recent enough? 20:02:08 pjb: not really unfortunately 20:02:24 it looked fine a while back now its just odd 20:02:34 and seems to redirect to some facebook lark 20:03:04 ...or something 20:03:49 I suppose I'll fire off an email 20:04:20 -!- pnq [~nick@AC810F73.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:07:12 and the fact there is tiny smiley in the bottom left corner of the website is not filling me with confidence 20:07:34 so small I thought it was actually dirt on my monitor 20:08:19 *maxm-* just had his first experience with having bad charges on my credit card, so be careful 20:09:12 I'm not going any further without contact from the organisers 20:09:14 was from a legit vendor (bought from them via amazon, then directly from their site), popup in the end of the order, please be nice and fill in teh survey about our site for 1 year subscription to 4 magazines of your choice.. 20:09:37 15 days until early registration ends so there is at least some room 20:09:45 *maxm-* is used to subscribe and 90% forgot to cancel model, so I did it and made todo item to unsubscribe, next week $200 in fraudulent charges 20:10:08 crumbs 20:10:10 ...not nice 20:10:57 I have my flight and all booked, so I would like to go the conference 20:11:06 though Zadar looks awesome anyway 20:11:40 flights from the UK and accommodation were very reasonable 20:12:00 actually about the same price as the conference 20:12:24 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has left #lisp 20:15:01 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 20:15:31 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@p5081EDAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:42 X-Scale` [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 20:15:49 -!- gf3 is now known as GoogleAndroid 20:15:56 -!- GoogleAndroid is now known as gf3 20:16:30 tlw8913 [~tenorplay@nat1195.oc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:18:01 if I get an error saying my condition statement is unbound in a function, what should I be looking for to fix it? 20:19:16 function in question at http://codepad.org/v9qzGLna 20:19:22 Error in package management, or spelling in function calls. 20:19:44 tlw8913: right there, you have a variable named COND that's unbound. 20:20:09 am I mistaken thinking that cond is the condition statement? 20:20:12 Then you have a non-form sexp: ((null children) nil) This is not Common Lisp code. 20:20:22 No, here COND is a variable. 20:20:32 using xlisp if that helps any 20:20:43 You also have a strange indentation, you're calling a function named T, which is probably not defined. 20:21:37 phrixos [~Foo@unaffiliated/phrixos] has joined #lisp 20:21:46 And you have a strange formating andindentaiton. Here it is corrected: http://paste.lisp.org/+2R1F 20:21:52 I'm probably about 13 shades of wrong here...I need cond to be my condition statement that checks if I have an empty children list, if it's not empty I need it to do the rest 20:21:56 guy simply forgot () around (cond ...), no need to be difficult 20:22:04 tlw8913: (cond ((null children) nil) ...) is what you want. 20:22:33 tlw8913: any special reason why you are using xlisp? 20:22:39 tlw8913: to apply an operator in lisp, you should write (, the operator name, the operator argument and ). This is the first lesson in lisp. So it's assumed you know it. And if you don't write (, that means you don't want to apply an operator. 20:22:42 It's what my professor told us to use 20:23:19 I just think I overlooked them, I'm very new to lisp 20:23:21 tlw8913: but on his (or his university//school) computers, or on your computers? 20:23:29 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:23:36 university-supplied personal laptop, if that helps any 20:24:00 tlw8913: because I can understand him making you use xlisp if it's already installed on his computers (and have been for 25 years), but I can't understand it if you have to install it yourself on yours. 20:24:17 tlw8913: irk, that's the worst combination :-( IMO. 20:24:29 I can't answer that one 20:24:41 well, at least it is a lisp. Could be {worse;} 20:25:21 tlw8913: now, xlisp seems to be a lisp-1, it's described as a superset of scheme on xlisp.org; perhaps you should ask on #scheme? 20:25:50 a lisp-1 isn't that mysterious 20:25:58 prxq: I wonder. Some teachers are so belated wrt lisp 20:26:25 *maxm-* does not get these well meaning professors trying to teach lisp without showing emacs, or teaching some basics first, its sad 20:26:26 Well the point is that we can hardly advise to use CL to write xlisp programs to a newbie if it's a lisp-1. 20:26:36 francogrex [~user@109.130.143.229] has joined #lisp 20:26:53 Teachers should be upgraded to Common Lisp. 20:26:54 pjb: most likely the teacher is insisting on "everything-with-recursion" braindamage. 20:26:56 It's not a lisp class, it's an AI class that uses lisp as a teaching tool, so maybe the professor just wanted something quick and easy that he already knew? 20:27:10 tlw8913: yes, definitely. 20:27:11 then noobs come here, and get cold shower too, holding grudge against "that lame language" forever 20:27:30 tlw8913: anyways, the syntax is (cond ), not cond  20:28:03 pjb: thanks for the tip. Now I'm fighting with about 13 other bugs in this one function... 20:28:10 typical noob mistakes I'm sure 20:28:20 drysdam [~dr@pool-71-161-95-235.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:28 -!- phrixos [~Foo@unaffiliated/phrixos] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:28:35 tlw8913: well if it's really scheme like, it should be (define (f args) ), not (defun name (args) ). 20:29:06 tlw8913: what editor are you using? 20:29:57 using Notepad++ and copy-pasting my test code to xlisp 20:30:19 at the very least it helps keep my parentheses paired properly, any ideas on a better one? 20:30:23 -!- Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@p5081EDAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:30:25 tlw8913: might pay off to try emacs. Autoindents lisp correctly 20:30:25 Yes, AI teachers are not there to teach you how to work. 20:30:33 tlw8913: emacs + paredit. 20:30:41 ignore paredit. 20:30:51 Don't ignore paredit. 20:31:14 I think xlisp is a hacky mashup sort of thing, so it has some CL things and some Scheme things. And the audacity docs say it has a "defun" special form. 20:31:17 I've heard of that for *nix machines, but my xlisp is on Windows, is there an emacs for Win? 20:31:26 you probably can get inferior-lisp mode working with xlisp. 20:31:35 tlw8913: yes, there is emacs for win 20:32:13 tlw8913: ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/emacs/windows/ 20:32:33 For the curious, I got the function to work correctly...http://codepad.org/CnUSoarQ is the corrected fn 20:33:10 Notice, we prefer http://paste.lisp.org/new here. 20:33:21 pjb: oh come on 20:33:32 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:33:34 prxq: that's for you too. 20:33:36 Sorry, C++ forums like codepad, I'll add a new bookmark 20:33:39 prxq: type /topic 20:34:06 tlw8913: lisp code is not formated and colorized like C++ code. 20:34:22 You could just use if 20:35:02 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:35:17 But cond is not bada. 20:35:28 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.146.151] has left #lisp 20:35:31 pjb: fair enough. I'll start using that now that I know about it :) 20:35:55 tlw8913: Check paredit: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ParEdit 20:36:14 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.137.26.211] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:36:34 getting inferior lisp working (being able to evaluate defuns conveniently) is far more important than paredit. 20:37:03 prxq: but it's as trivial: M-x customize-variable RET inferior-lisp-program RET 20:37:26 still way more important 20:38:02 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:39:18 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-79-54.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 20:40:11 tlw8913: if you are a programmer, you can probably make CL just like xlisp in an afternoon, and then write your xlisp program on a CL implementation with emacs+paredit+slime. 20:40:21 instead of emacs + paredit + inferior-lisp. 20:41:18 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.143.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:33 pjb: aren't you exaggerating a little bit? Bug for bug compatibility isn't that easy to get right. 20:41:49 pjb: are you saying "do it right then dumb it down"? :P 20:41:55 I cannot stress enough just how optional paredit really is 20:42:08 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:43:56 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-221-7.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:46:04 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:46:29 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:46:53 tlw8913: What I mean is that CL implementations provide a better development environment than the toy lisps you find right and left. 20:47:13 So if you have to write a program in a toy lisp, better define the toy lisp in CL, and develop it there. Then deploy it on the toy. 20:47:41 Eg. there's no swank on xlisp, so you cannot use slime for xlisp. But if you define a XLISP package in CL, you can use slime. 20:48:11 cmm: but it's so more agreable to edit lisp code with paredit. 20:48:40 nonsense, /bin/ed is a perfectly viable IDE. 20:49:29 To write what? a unix kernel? 20:49:34 I'll get to work on that later tonight. As it is, I have a class in 10, so I should get going. Thanks for your help, everyone! I'm sure I'll be back later this evening... 20:49:45 Ralith: ? 20:49:58 -!- tlw8913 [~tenorplay@nat1195.oc.edu] has left #lisp 20:50:13 naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has joined #lisp 20:50:15 -!- xan__ [~xan@80.174.78.220.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:50:56 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-193-140.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 20:50:58 sykopomp: ? 20:51:27 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 20:51:29 -!- naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has quit [Client Quit] 20:52:40 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-63.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 20:52:44 Ralith: ? 20:52:53 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-68-41-30-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 20:53:16 sykopomp: ¿ 20:53:20 Ralith: ? 20:53:32 ! 20:54:01 Ralith: I'd love to keep this going, but not in #lisp. 20:54:56 indeed. 20:56:49 yeah, take it to #??!!!?... 20:58:05 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d012c0d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:58:23 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d012c0d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:29 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-124-63.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:02:10 don't forget the ¿ 21:05:03 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:06:43 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0E4C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:08:59 emacsuser [~user@89-212-118-232.static.t-2.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:50 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0E4C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:10:55 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 21:11:18 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:13:22 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.70.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:13:26 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.12] has joined #lisp 21:14:55 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 21:16:53 -!- inaimathi [~inaimathi@bas1-toronto61-1279436200.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:57 malkia [~malkia@external.treyarch.com] has joined #lisp 21:20:13 when all lisps started dying off in the 80s and after the mathematical bastard child scheme, they - all the people involved - got together and released their 'greatest hits' album, and they named it 'Common Lisp'. we - the common lisp lovers - are still listening to this 'greatest hits' album because it reminds us of times when machines were simpler. because what's Lisp if not a simple 'cons' machine. Macros are made of cons. But the 21:20:14 more you're using CLOS, arrays, sturcs .. the more you find yourself in the dreaded C++ land.. a simple alist, caddr, mapcar feels so much better than hashmap, defstruct, and dotimes... Gentlemen, let me remind you of a simpler time: (cons a nil). 21:21:25 what. 21:21:39 all I have to say 21:21:40 if it's not made out of lists, it's not lisp? 21:21:41 nice story 21:21:53 emacsuser: http://www.miscupload.com/upload/1230937027008866348057.gif 21:21:58 whatever you're smoking, I *don't* want any. 21:22:33 yeah, good stuff 21:25:00 hey tlw8913: try lispbox 21:27:10 emacsuser: you're right. 21:27:24 emacsuser: notice that for small structures, alists are faster than hash-tables. 21:27:55 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:28:14 good observation 21:28:47 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081EDAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:56 M-x psychoanalyze-pinhead 21:29:44 H4ns: I was really expecting that you had made that command up 21:29:57 -!- cafesofie [~user@ool-18e4c9a0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:00 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:30:52 I should have guessed otherwise consider M-x butterfly 21:32:26 cafesofie [~user@ool-18e4c9a0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:26 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-48-223.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:32:59 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-48-223.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:30 emacsuser 4/10. A better troll would have been more subtle and drawn more people into discussion first 21:33:50 you don't start hit songs from a awesome guitar solo, you start slow 21:33:55 maxm-: but thank you for feeding him! 21:33:58 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:34:15 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 21:34:22 H4ns: i did not feed him, feeding him would be discuss substance of his message 21:34:26 not trollin, bro 21:34:36 "bro" 21:34:56 and the point of all this is 21:35:55 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 21:36:12 -!- kai_ [~kai@f052097030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:14 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:36:20 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@ip98-169-80-239.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:37:53 that lisp IS dead after all. We're hearing the 'greatest hits'. The band is not gonna come back. The appearant rise of lisp in the last 10 years is just because of the internet. All other languages got many times more popular during this same period of time. A few of them a lot more (python -which is designed to lose, btw). So lisp is dead, it won't rise now, and even less in 10 years time (then there will be 'JAVA 2' or some similar 21:37:53 shit). 21:38:06 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 21:38:07 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*user@*.static.t-2.net 21:38:17 (incf Xach) 21:38:18 see what you did maxm-, this is your fault 21:38:18 hehe 21:38:44 I wonder if that's Xah Lee 21:39:21 ahah 21:39:25 Nope. 21:39:30 all that talk about "popular", "rise", "fall", what's the point anyway? these discussions are really for amateurs. 21:39:39 Xah Lee hates cons cells, iirc 21:40:07 daniel___ [~daniel@p5B326963.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:31 emacsuser: I'm pretty sure your walls of text are not convincing too many people that the thing they are working on (and know quite well) is dead 21:40:40 change of strategy, perhaps? 21:40:41 sykopomp: I only realise now why you incf'd Xach 21:40:55 after he charged to admin phasers 21:40:58 oh, so much for walls of text (: 21:41:01 to/the 21:42:03 emacsuser: UrT? (sorry if not) 21:42:13 -!- daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082B586.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:43:28 DataLinkDroid [~David@1.138.135.24] has joined #lisp 21:45:28 i took a break today and hacked rainbow-delimiters to do this: http://ogmo.mephle.com/no-parens.png .. somewhat inspired by pretty-lisp.org .. kinda fugly and harder to use than parens imho 21:46:16 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:47:46 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 21:48:37 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 21:48:56 oGMo: eek, put the crayons back in the box and never touch them again 21:49:51 oGMo: looks wicked :-) 21:50:16 well in reality i don't even use rainbow-delimiters, i've found setting parens to "barely visible grey" to be the best approach, but i was slightly curious as to exactly how well it would fail to work ;) 21:51:58 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d012c0d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:47 Xach: is there a good single search site that will look through places where people host CL code/projects (GitHub, c-l.net, etc.) for keywords, the usual? 21:54:04 dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:13 I hate always asking here, and general purpose search engines are too broad. 21:54:27 google-fu is weak with you 21:54:29 hi, anyone know if luke@balooga.com , maintainer of lispbuilder-sdl, is still around 21:54:42 dnm: I don't know, sorry. I usually write: lisp 21:54:43 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-245-37.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:55:00 Xach: Yeah, what I guess was the case, but figured I'd ask (heh). OK. 21:56:26 dnm: also github.com/search, lets you search by language 21:56:28 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-231-170.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:47 maxm-: Yep. Thanks. 21:56:54 ie language: common lisp search in: repo/code/everything, search text: penii 21:59:55 -!- dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 22:03:23 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:04:05 dnm: there used to be google code search, but that got sunset 22:05:02 *maxm-* is almost convinced ppl in google have no clue what are they doing 22:05:30 they shutting down useful stuff, google+ is honestly a disaster.. Their only hope is to monetize android somehow 22:05:51 -!- chupish_ [182c5af4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.44.90.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:06:20 maxm-: google code search didn't generate revenue, so it got axed. that's standard business logic 22:06:21 sorry for offtopic, talking google gets me into stock talk mode 22:06:23 -!- mgodshall_ [~quassel@76.161.200.249] has quit [Quit: gurgle gurgle] 22:07:31 maxm-: actually, I quite like Google+, got to meet some awesome people, use it to keep in contact with family (compared to Skype, hangouts work great) 22:07:58 *Xach* ponders a CL source search engine 22:08:14 Xach: QL would be a nice starting corpus 22:08:14 antifuchs: Yeah, that was a big disappointment. Alas. 22:08:28 it does not cost them anything their interns probably waste more cluster time on screwing around then code search hosting.. And IMHO advertising for programming related books on code search 22:08:45 Xach: I see my mind virus has taken root. ;] 22:09:37 Xach: google.com/codesearch/? 22:09:47 p_l: probably depends on one usage pattern, I specifically went on it coz none of my relatives are there to pester me 22:10:00 hmm. that link used to exist. 22:10:31 codesearch has been taken down. 22:10:32 Comparing #common-lisp search on g+ and twitter, twitter has tons more useful stuff 22:11:25 i read http://paulgraham.com/ambitious.html the other day - the first idea is to build a new search engine for hackers 22:11:56 the first two words of the essay title are correct imho: frighteningly abbitious 22:12:04 *ambitious 22:12:12 *dnm* just wanted to avoid writing a UBF and/or BERT-RPC implementation in CL if someone had already written a decent one. 22:12:25 see the amount of activity on paste.lisp.org.. I sometimes juts browse pastes for 30 minutes, seeing how people do all kinds of cool stuff 22:13:09 ehu: no, a lispsearch 22:13:18 dnm: someone has cl-bert 22:13:24 totzeit1 [~kirkwood@204.15.3.100] has joined #lisp 22:13:51 all these people are either current or future engeneers, CIO, CTO's and basically all the nerdy/geeky positions.. Google should want them posting and sharing that stuff on g+.. They can't catch up to facebook, they have to differentiate 22:14:21 -!- ddv [~ddv@unaffiliated/ddv] has left #lisp 22:16:16 Xach: https://github.com/esessoms/bert ? 22:16:28 dnm: I think so 22:16:47 *dnm* nods 22:16:49 Looking at it now. 22:18:08 maxm-: then... why not start posting links to lisppaste? 22:18:29 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:29 -!- ZombieChicken [~none@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:18:43 maxm-: also, you gave me a great idea for an application (though probably it won't be commercialized) 22:18:45 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-197.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:19:06 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:20:38 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-85.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:20:46 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:21:39 p_l: its hard to have geeky convo on g+, coz it screws up formatting.. On twitter its no problem, coz everything is in links anyway, but g+ supposed to be "twitter where you can have conversations" 22:22:41 *maxm-* thinks that g+ probably had markup for literals (ie two spaces in front or such), but some suit decided it would make it "too nerd frendly" and we don't want that 22:23:40 maxm-: actually I suspect the nerds responsible for the markup just used links to internal pastebin or source viewer 22:24:28 man even reddit has it, and what one can't say about it, is that it became techie refuge, quite the opposite 22:25:39 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:26:52 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:31:19 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 22:32:05 hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:08 -!- hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:33:08 dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:25 project2501b [~lpt@109.171.130.235] has joined #lisp 22:33:42 hey guys. is there a "data structures and algorithms" book in lisp? 22:34:13 Xach, i'm having a user on OSX who uses the app version of CCL and his asdf cant' find the blocky directory, isn't there some way to have his quicklisp build blocky as a local project? 22:34:33 thats me, the user 22:34:47 Xach: ah i think i found it 22:34:51 who tried to be a lisp coder too, with good terminology 22:34:55 kilon: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/faq.html 22:35:08 kilon: section: "can i load a local project that isn't part of quicklisp" 22:35:24 kilon: i'm going to recommend that in INSTALL now as the default, and not the symlink approach 22:35:30 hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:44 -!- Fare [~Fare@74.125.59.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:41:20 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@100.Red-88-11-23.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 22:43:14 -!- loktigon [~loktigon@c-98-225-150-57.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:44:10 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-20.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:43 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:47:05 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 22:47:19 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:50:47 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:52:50 quick warning if any of you here haven't heard about http://mailman.nginx.org/pipermail/nginx-announce/2012/000076.html yet: nginx has an extremely serious security bug that can result in very embarrassing/damaging things happening. patch ASAP. 22:57:48 dto: check it out into ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ perhaps 22:57:50 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:01:11 Xach: is quicklisp.org down? 23:01:32 wait, there it is. 23:01:34 that was weird. 23:02:00 Ralith: was rebooting it with new nginx 23:02:01 Works for me. 23:02:04 ah. 23:02:12 (probably did not need the reboot, wanted to use a big hammer) 23:05:20 MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has joined #lisp 23:07:42 *Xach* writes more documentation 23:08:41 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:08:58 yay 23:09:07 Don't get too excited! It's for quickproject 23:09:17 hfh 23:09:26 "heh", I mean (stupid colemak layout) 23:09:31 (stupid brain rather) 23:10:00 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177889799.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:11:01 wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-76-183-91-176.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:01 Xach: am trying to use buildapp. It works nicely on my 64-bit Fedora 16 box, but on 32-bit CentOS5, the resulting binary exits immediately. Any idea? 23:12:56 I even tried brining the CentOS5 sbcl up to the same version as on F16. No luck. 23:13:14 umm I see colemak replaces the capslock with backspace 23:13:40 antgreen: hmm, some kind of heap randomization or other security thing? 23:13:49 antgreen: does regular save-lisp-and-die :executable t work? 23:13:55 -!- totzeit1 [~kirkwood@204.15.3.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:14:06 Guthur: yeah, I don't do that 23:14:10 the claim that it is the third most popular after qwerty and dovak didn't do much for me, considering I had only heard of those two anyway, hehe 23:14:15 too useful to have it as ctrl (: 23:14:27 antifuchs: indeed 23:14:37 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-5-113.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 23:14:53 -!- hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: hydo] 23:14:56 anyway, it's less insane than dvorak, and less painful than qwerty - still a bit of a mindbender (: 23:14:58 Xach: haven't tried. let me see 23:15:00 if dvorak is too mainstream for you, you just well may be a hipster 23:15:12 it's mildly inconvenient having to use other peoples keyboard layouts though 23:15:21 I enjoy colemak too 23:15:24 maxm-: people don't make decisions the way you think they do 23:15:28 except for playing nethack :/ 23:15:45 hahaha, yes 23:15:46 *maxm-* is dvorak user, after getting a scared straight by his doctor, with my hand going numb after two 70 hour weeks at work 23:15:47 -!- kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-178-206.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:02 -!- dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 23:16:32 maxm-: those are long weeks 23:16:48 KDr2 [~kdr2@123.120.152.56] has joined #lisp 23:16:49 Xach: I take that back 23:16:54 I would evaluating my employment situation rather than keyboard layout if that was the norm 23:17:04 Guthur: fate of being a consultant, you can't say no to unlimited OT 23:17:09 since you are paid for it 23:17:19 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0E4C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:22 ah thats totally different 23:17:22 my program is just behaving differently, and exiting after doing some stuff 23:17:27 with no output 23:17:54 when I run it from the repl it runs perfectly 23:18:01 hmm 23:18:27 dvorak goes surprisinly well with vi 23:18:47 left hand is up/down, right hand left/right, but you can used to it very quickly 23:21:49 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:22:31 antgreen: ah! hmm 23:22:36 *madnificent* switched to emacs when switching to dvorak 23:28:10 as long as we talking layouts and keyboards, this is keyboard I use (when switching to dvorak I was actually scared of losing my ability to type, so went full crazy with it, switched to dvorak, changed posture, started using kb tray) 23:29:05 http://www.comfortkeyboard.com/keyboards_comfort.html <- I swear by this product, its awesome.. Patent system actually doing something useful 23:30:07 full 3d positioning, with easy locking.. Full programmable remapping, my left spacebar is esc.. Left win key + right side of the keyboard is arrow keys, and ins/home/del/pgup/pgdown 23:30:54 also nice conversation starter, ppl always stopped by my desk :-) 23:35:34 that does look pretty amazing 23:35:42 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:35:59 -!- nauar [~Grunt@29.Red-88-27-95.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 23:36:43 photos don't do it justice. I have mine configured so my palms are almost vertical close together like holding ski poles, with numpad way out of the way 23:36:49 maxm-: linux support? 23:37:02 "You can even get a Foot Pedal (or three!)" 23:37:02 :D 23:37:03 foot pedals 23:37:04 wccoder: all remapping and macros are fully in hardware 23:37:22 could bring a whole new dimension to emacs use 23:37:25 lol 23:37:47 maxm-: sweet. when you switched to dvorak how long before you were comfy? did you just go cold turkey? 23:38:18 maxm-: rubber dome switches? lol 23:38:39 what were they thinking 23:38:40 wccoder: it has "sun-mode", which I turned on, and it makes right win key super, left one hyper, unless you enable the arrow key feature, in which case left win key becomes on/off toggle for making right side an arrow-keys + ins/home/next and del/end/prior 23:39:09 wccoder: aproximatly 1 week until I was ok, I went cold turkey 23:39:32 wccoder: aproximately 1 month until I got back to old typing speed, and started forgetting querty 23:39:32 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.184] has joined #lisp 23:40:00 vsync: hey, manage to unwind your stack yet? 23:40:10 wow, that's a $300 keyboard... 23:40:42 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:40:44 wccoder: well I have mine for last 6 years 23:40:48 so its kind of an investment 23:40:50 i absolutely *hate* the happy hacking keyboard i bought. the only nice thing is the small size, so i can throw it in a backpack 23:40:54 its very rugged 23:40:56 the more i think of it, Emacs needs foot pedals 23:41:04 could be awesome 23:42:13 maxm-: ya, it sounds really sturdy, and i totally get the investment thing - 2.5 years of working from an ikea TV stand + table arranged into an "L" and i finally broke down and bought a real desk. it was a good investment. :) 23:42:24 well in my mind at least, reality is probably a different matter 23:42:53 Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has joined #lisp 23:45:00 -!- mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-135-195-50.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Quit: mcstar] 23:45:20 mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-135-195-50.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 23:46:09 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@123.120.152.56] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48:27 ah forgot to mention if you buying it buy usb version, the original ps2 version does not have win keys, which are extremely useful. I ordered wrong one by mistake (ppl were still using ps2 keyboards 5 years ago), and it came with no win keys 23:48:34 but these guys replaced it for free 23:49:17 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@adsl-99-36-220-229.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:27 -!- mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-135-195-50.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:50:37 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:51:03 mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-132-33-164.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 23:51:47 -!- Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has quit [Quit: even in laughter, the heart of Snorlax is sorrowful. and the end of that mirth is heaviness.] 23:53:27 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:54:38 -!- anonus [anonymous@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:2cc7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:54:59 -!- emacsuser [~user@89-212-118-232.static.t-2.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]