00:01:40 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:09 *maxm-* did not even knew clisp had threads 00:02:11 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:05:08 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-179-113.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:08 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-179-113.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:05:08 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 00:05:13 -!- BrianRice [~water@174-21-120-125.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:05:24 BrianRice [~water@174-21-120-125.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:40 ikki [~ikki@187.193.177.90] has joined #lisp 00:08:30 BrianRice` [~water@174-21-120-125.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:30 -!- BrianRice [~water@174-21-120-125.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:08:31 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 00:08:54 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:13:08 jewel [~jewel@207.239.114.206] has joined #lisp 00:14:21 -!- kai_ [~kai@f052103094.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:16:25 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.184] has joined #lisp 00:17:57 -!- tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has quit [Quit: tkellen] 00:20:03 -!- gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:06 kai_ [~kai@f052101223.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:20:18 gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:20:18 -!- gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:24 gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:23:17 -!- gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23:32 gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:23:45 -!- gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23:56 gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:26:50 -!- gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:27:03 gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:31:00 facefox [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:03 dmj111 [~user@c-98-235-94-211.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:38 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 00:40:14 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-8-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:40:28 tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has joined #lisp 00:43:04 -!- jewel [~jewel@207.239.114.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:43:26 DataLinkDroid [~David@110.140.247.3] has joined #lisp 00:43:55 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.193.177.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:46:31 Froward [~uh-oh@64.134.68.241] has joined #lisp 00:47:58 -!- Frowardly [~uh-oh@64.134.68.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:50:14 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:50:19 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:50:19 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 00:52:51 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:55:21 -!- kai_ [~kai@f052101223.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:58:57 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-116-245.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:02:08 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-132-64.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 01:07:36 malbertife [malbertife@bl9-66-13.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 01:09:37 does anyone else when they're tired mix up the keybindings for going to the repl and exiting emacs? 01:09:42 it's pretty scary 01:11:33 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:12:00 *p_l* recalls something about F12 r 01:12:10 doesn't seem similar to C-x C-c 01:12:56 -!- arborist [~arborist@e182028077.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:13:12 limetree: redefine them. I use C-z r for the repl 01:14:22 I use slime-selector's C-c s r 01:15:30 yeah, I have C-z for slime-selector 01:15:37 it's not quite the same, though 01:17:06 I bound slime-selector to F12 01:18:04 C-c C-z opens it up in a new window. although the exact behaviour is still a mystery to me. 01:20:17 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:22:36 What's the default for the REPL? 01:24:29 C-C C-z is default 01:24:43 ty 01:25:53 -!- agumonkey [agumonkey@143.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:26:21 *Xach* uses slime-selector a lot 01:27:04 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@110.140.247.3] has quit [Quit: Bye] 01:27:30 ikki [~ikki@189.139.19.59] has joined #lisp 01:29:28 *limetree* started using paredit today and thinks it's quite fantastic. 01:29:37 it makes editing source code quite fun 01:34:13 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.176] has joined #lisp 01:37:36 doesn't it? 01:37:45 -!- malbertife [malbertife@bl9-66-13.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:38:07 limetree: use emacs' client-server mode 01:38:22 then the odd accidental exit does no harm save losing your window layout. 01:43:02 kwertii [~kwertii@unaffiliated/kwertii] has joined #lisp 01:51:08 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:51:30 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:46 i have (setq confirm-kill-emacs 'y-or-n-p), no accidental exists 01:52:07 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.19.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:52:21 A lot of useful things accidentally exist. 01:53:00 I always have an inferior lisp running; no accidental exit (: 01:53:53 merely the prompt raises my pulse a bit :P 01:54:20 pkhuong: well, i have slime-kill-without-query-p set to T 01:54:31 -!- Froward [~uh-oh@64.134.68.241] has quit [Quit: even in laughter, the heart of Snorlax is sorrowful. and the end of that mirth is heaviness.] 01:55:39 wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:11 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 02:00:26 -!- jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:01:36 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 02:02:11 -!- ignacio [~ignacio@unaffiliated/ignacio] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:02:15 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:03:17 dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:40 hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:07 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A8E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:04:57 ikki [~ikki@69-r9-r1m.bb.itelcel.com] has joined #lisp 02:06:54 justicefries [justicefri@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:e325] has joined #lisp 02:16:12 -!- Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:16:26 Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:37 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has left #lisp 02:19:23 -!- ikki [~ikki@69-r9-r1m.bb.itelcel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:21:27 gigamonkey [~pseibel@adsl-108-200-141-229.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:15 KDr2 [~kdr2@123.122.127.48] has joined #lisp 02:23:25 hm, how can sort return a smaller list? 02:23:55 it can't, you're miscalculating it 02:25:07 length before sort returns 25, length after returns a smaller number 02:25:19 length of what? 02:25:24 the result of sort? 02:25:35 limetree: note that sort is destructive. 02:26:05 So if you sort a list after the sort the original list is likely to be destroyed. 02:26:07 oh right, I'm getting a different head 02:26:31 the sorted list is what SORT returns 02:26:33 Basically, you need to use the result of sort and abandon any references to the original list. 02:26:36 everything else garbage 02:26:44 yeah, thanks :) 02:30:25 -!- Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:32:38 dru1d [~lukasz@ip-82-177-172-217.net.azartsat.pl] has joined #lisp 02:41:46 -!- tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has quit [Quit: tkellen] 02:43:33 fantasticsid [~user@178.18.16.11] has joined #lisp 02:43:49 tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has joined #lisp 02:44:00 -!- tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has quit [Client Quit] 02:45:32 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:46:22 -!- Simul` [~user@97-93-224-156.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:47:35 stassats` [~stassats@pppoe.178-66-8-202.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 02:47:40 -!- stassats` [~stassats@pppoe.178-66-8-202.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Changing host] 02:47:40 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:47:59 tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has joined #lisp 02:50:24 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:52 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-100.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:52:16 A cffi question. Is there any way to tell cffi to look for libraries in a certain place, before looking in the standard locations? Well, besides setting LD_LIBRARY_PATH. 02:52:39 cffi:*foreign-library-directories* 02:53:27 i'm not sure about the order 02:56:04 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:58:36 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-8-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:48 ckairaba [~ckairaba@39.104.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:27 -!- cbp` [~user@187.208.0.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:04:37 -!- dryman [~dryman@OpenISDM.iis.sinica.edu.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:04:51 dryman [~dryman@OpenISDM.iis.sinica.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 03:05:26 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:14 *stassats* testing GC on SBCL compiled with clang 03:09:38 seems to be noticeably faster when running shootout binary-trees benchmark 03:10:10 or wait 03:10:41 retesting, they had a different heap size 03:11:02 no difference, that's good too 03:11:46 -!- ckairaba [~ckairaba@39.104.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 03:12:09 what else can i test which is depends on the runtime? 03:13:25 hmm... is there something hairy enough in save-lisp-and-die? 03:13:39 ok, i'll try that 03:15:26 i don't have a large enough core, appears the same 03:16:32 anyway, i'll run tests and then commit the changes which allow to build SBCL with Clang 03:18:54 how crazy would it be to modify Linux ABI to allow for more cheap C calls from lisp? 03:19:30 very, because you would have to recompile the rest 03:19:31 stassats: simpler to change our calling conveniton. 03:19:53 however, you are free to ditch some C calls in favor of directly calling sysenter/sysexit and such 03:19:56 p_l: that should be the least of the problems 03:20:54 pkhuong: but besides calling convention, there also some flags which need to be set and restored 03:21:44 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 03:23:07 fp and pc, could they be left intact? 03:23:56 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 03:24:36 -!- dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:24:36 -!- rme [rme@833E80F1.333FC83A.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:24:36 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.184.114] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:24:54 sbcl takes 620K when compiled with clang, instead of 795K 03:25:04 who wanted smaller executables? 03:27:40 yeah, I have some code on which clang is obviously better than gcc on code size. There's a bunch of SSE moves, and GCC compiles them as movapd, which takes 1 more byte (the #x66 size override) than clang's movaps. Really strange. 03:30:46 alek_b [~alek_b@99-10-120-63.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:28 i should also measure compile times 03:31:55 namoamitabuddha [~namoamita@114.94.227.60] has joined #lisp 03:32:04 Is there anyone using lush? 03:33:15 or another lisp shell? 03:34:41 fjl [~fjl@178-25-98-61-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 03:35:35 Patzy: you there? 03:37:05 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:37:28 stassats: you should compare their sizes stripped. 03:38:30 the SBCL I have here, compiled with gcc 4.6.whatever, goes from 656K to 183K stripped 03:39:21 176K for clang, 199K for GCC 03:40:34 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:41:26 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 03:51:03 3:27.27 for clang and 3:27.18 for gcc 03:51:22 which is a measurement error, so, the same 03:52:58 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:53:54 What about lush? 03:54:10 nobody uses it 03:54:12 namoamitabuddha: same answer as 20 minutes ago. 03:54:16 everybody here uses CL 03:54:45 pkhuong: sorry. 03:55:02 -!- namoamitabuddha [~namoamita@114.94.227.60] has left #lisp 03:55:15 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:35 namoamitabuddha [~namoamita@114.94.227.60] has joined #lisp 03:56:45 But you use CL as shell? 03:57:13 as an interactive shell, no 03:57:17 for writing scripts, yes 03:57:29 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-8-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:57:34 stassats: I don't think that patch will build on win32. 03:57:57 ikki [~ikki@187.193.177.170] has joined #lisp 03:58:02 do they have a different gcc? 03:58:14 Can you show me an example to enter? 03:59:29 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.81.77] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:59:32 stassats: no, never mind. it should be fine. extern is on the declaration and inline on the definition. 03:59:50 lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.87.249] has joined #lisp 04:00:54 now, building with MSVC! 04:01:00 or intel c 04:01:08 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-146-183.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:01:20 OT, what music do people here hack to? 04:01:29 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-124-118.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:44 the sound of silence 04:02:20 'silence or ,silence ? 04:02:33 (the first is the Simon and Garfunkel song) 04:02:39 stassats: have you tried enabling whole program optimisation with clang? 04:02:41 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-122-247.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 04:02:55 pkhuong: nope 04:03:01 haven't tried changing anything 04:03:16 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-124-118.as43234.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:03:44 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-124-118.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:52 will just changing CFLAGS be enough? 04:03:54 the gc-common/gencgc split looks like it might hurt. 04:04:55 stassats: not quite. You need -O4 and to link with llvm's toolchain. 04:05:57 -!- fjl [~fjl@178-25-98-61-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:06:39 alright, trying 04:07:28 3 and a half minutes is so long, can't wait for new haswell cpus 04:07:35 i bet build time will go down to 2 minutes 04:07:48 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM49-252-19-31.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:08:54 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-157-194.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:08 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-124-118.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:09:57 -!- acelent [~user@sigma02.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:10:05 cbp` [~user@187.208.0.7] has joined #lisp 04:11:28 can't build with -O4 04:12:33 -O4 == -O3 04:13:02 namoamitabuddha: thanks for this wonderful piece of misinformation 04:13:47 stassats: oh, forget it. You need gold and additional patches. 04:13:53 stassats: Let me find a demonistrate. 04:14:19 pkhuong: yeah, installed gold, to no avail 04:15:42 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:16:36 stassats: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gcc-optimization.xml 04:16:44 does it work if you add -flto to LINKFLAGS? 04:16:50 stassats: see FAQ 04:16:50 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.58.205] has quit [Quit: tensorpudding] 04:16:53 nowhere_man: we're not discussing GCC. 04:16:59 leo2007 [~leo@111.194.94.193] has joined #lisp 04:17:34 namoamitabuddha: even. 04:17:35 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.58.205] has joined #lisp 04:18:48 pkhuong: no 04:19:02 pkhuong: Is it a common sense? 04:19:50 namoamitabuddha: other compilers might have completely different options, it just happens that many conform to POSIX/XPG/SUS cc(1) 04:20:05 araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has joined #lisp 04:20:05 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has quit [Changing host] 04:20:05 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:20:17 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.58.205] has quit [Client Quit] 04:20:45 pkhuong: khm, looks like the final linking call to CC doesn't include CFLAGS 04:21:51 stassats: right, but it does include LINKFLAGS. 04:23:49 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.58.205] has joined #lisp 04:24:17 ok, added -use-gold-plugin to LINKFLAGS, now it complains about a library being missing 04:24:23 _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.47.109] has joined #lisp 04:25:02 and debian doesn't include it 04:27:18 nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-43-237.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:28:51 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.47.109] has quit [Client Quit] 04:30:12 acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 04:30:13 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM49-252-19-31.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:32:44 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:40:36 Vicfred [~Futaba@189.228.22.127] has joined #lisp 04:47:51 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-123-147.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:08 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-157-194.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:49:05 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:49:20 _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.47.109] has joined #lisp 04:49:33 -!- fantasticsid [~user@178.18.16.11] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:51:10 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:45 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 04:52:27 pkhuong: managed to build the run-time, failed when saving a core 04:52:48 bah 04:52:56 just no space left 04:53:27 what? I expect my hard drives will die before I run out of space! 04:53:45 that's a ramdisk 04:53:48 ah. 04:54:05 and by default it's only 1.6G for some reason 04:54:47 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.176] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:55:13 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.47.109] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:55:26 crap, just deleted a library i shouldn't have deleted 04:55:39 to hell with it, i'll try next time 04:57:33 1.6G?... 4G machine perchance? 04:57:42 8G 04:57:47 hmmm 04:58:01 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:58:03 on 4G it's 772M 04:58:09 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-115-68.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:27 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:58:33 if that's linux, then with non-standard tmpfs defaults 04:58:38 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-123-147.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:59:30 it doesn't really matter 05:00:02 _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.47.109] has joined #lisp 05:00:18 true 05:02:44 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.47.109] has left #lisp 05:02:57 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:04:50 -!- CrazyEddy [~tablet@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:07:42 colonel_panic [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:08:10 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:09:50 _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.47.109] has joined #lisp 05:10:24 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 05:11:00 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-44-124.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:11:10 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-174-201.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:24 Can I make my own namespace? Is there a place in a symbol where I can store my own data, so to speak, and have my macros access it, and provide a function to serve as a place similarly to find-class 05:13:47 using a hash-table 05:14:09 What about symbol-plist? 05:14:25 Or is global hash-table better for some reason? 05:14:25 if that's what you want 05:14:47 Sgeo:packages? 05:15:15 pkhuong: alright, finally compiled it, no changes in my tests 05:16:13 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.47.109] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:16:40 stassats: darn. I was hoping for some speed ups in GC. 05:17:06 how to best test the gc? 05:17:25 binary trees probably isn't too bad? 05:17:32 -!- nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-43-237.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:17:50 it only spends 1.2 seconds out of 15 in GC 05:18:01 optikalmouse [~user@bas1-toronto07-1177887058.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:18:05 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-43-237.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:18:17 ,o/ 05:19:06 I'm trying to understand how CLIM applications produce output, wtf does output recording even mean... ;/ 05:19:35 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-100.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:19:46 CrazyEddy [~hail@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 05:20:10 why are you using CLIM? 05:20:40 I'm not, I'm reading about it :p 05:21:42 What's with the difference in argument order between, say, getf and gethash? 05:21:51 -!- KognizantKog [~Kognizant@72.168.55.98] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- *I* use it, so it must be good!] 05:22:21 ,gethash 05:22:29 ...that's not how the bot works is it... 05:22:29 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-43-237.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:23:13 no 05:23:43 and there's no bot anymore 05:23:47 Aww 05:23:48 (channel's bot, that is) 05:24:36 Hmm 05:25:03 -!- tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has quit [Quit: tkellen] 05:25:04 *Sgeo* imagines making a sandbox by having the code run in a package and all other packages being renamed to gensyms 05:25:31 Just exposing needed functions to the package where usercode is running 05:30:04 Man, I wonder where the bot went 05:30:13 I wasn't here to see it 05:30:26 to robot heaven 05:33:29 /join #robot-heaven 05:33:32 must have went to hell 05:33:58 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.193.177.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:38:21 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has left #lisp 05:39:34 slyrus [~chatzilla@72-254-80-255.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:33 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.228] has joined #lisp 05:43:09 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.226.44] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 05:43:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-212-35.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:49:08 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-115-68.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:49:13 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.132.159] has joined #lisp 05:51:09 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-115-156.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:06 jerQ [~jere@jerq.fi] has joined #lisp 05:54:32 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has joined #lisp 05:57:08 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-115-156.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:01:34 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-118-236.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:20 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-43-237.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:05:17 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-154-251.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:06 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-43-237.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:07:08 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@176.97.27.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:07:40 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-43-237.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:08:08 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-118-236.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:08:49 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.194.94.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:09:47 -!- mensch [~mensch@c-24-128-27-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:09:53 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-100.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:12:02 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-43-237.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:14:01 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:15:14 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-116-165.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:49 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.58.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:18:08 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-154-251.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:21:08 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-116-165.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:25:52 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@unaffiliated/kwertii] has quit [Quit: bye] 06:26:56 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-124-77.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:01 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:31:39 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:48 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-43-237.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:32:04 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:32:08 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-124-77.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:33:58 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-117-77.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:57 optikalmouse: output recording means building a scene graph 06:40:28 or, "retained mode" drawing 06:42:21 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 06:42:29 Does anyone use islisp? 06:43:38 I hadn't even heard of it before seeing it mentioned in PCL 06:45:17 No module system, ick. *cough* just like Scheme *cough* 06:45:33 Although I think Scheme's fixing that in more recent reports? 06:46:55 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 06:47:32 How good/bad is SBCL at static type inference? Because if it's really good at it, maybe I won't miss that aspect of Haskell so much 06:47:48 (lambda () (+ "5" "6")) gives me a warning 06:48:05 _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.47.109] has joined #lisp 06:48:41 Why wouldn't it? 06:49:12 austinh, because I assume it doesn't need to, it could just leave it until runtime when the error would actually occur 06:49:51 Why wait? 06:50:41 it catches a lot of stupid errors like that. 06:51:14 Still won't catch as many stupid errors as Haskell, will it? 06:51:23 -!- cbp` [~user@187.208.0.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:51:38 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-117-77.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:51:54 of course not. 06:52:10 are these legitimate questions, are you just being obnoxious? 06:52:27 (..or..) 06:52:51 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.35.85] has joined #lisp 06:52:54 Trying to convince myself to stick with CL, I guess. Macros are a pretty convincing reason, though 06:53:13 Haskell (well, Template Haskell) does have macros, but .. they're somewhat annoying 06:56:51 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-153-19.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 06:57:06 chimeracoder [~phoenix@c-24-91-19-6.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:18 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-144-92.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:41 Why not use both? 06:59:59 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.11.254] has joined #lisp 07:01:22 Has quicklisp completely superseded asdf, even though the website says it's still in beta? 07:02:17 quicklisp uses asdf...... 07:02:18 that's a little like asking if apt has superseded make 07:02:24 it does not supersede it.... 07:02:24 chimeracoder: Do you mean asdf-install? 07:02:31 austinh: yes 07:02:37 Then, yes. 07:03:17 Ah, thanks 07:03:54 I was having issues with lisp packages, but I'm in the middle of installing quicklisp now, so hopefully that will solve it 07:04:12 it will not solve all issues........ 07:04:22 the packages itself have bugs ....... 07:05:11 mostly in the portable things stuff.....like sbcl keywords found in #+cmu sections etc....and other bugs tooo..... 07:05:19 yeah, possibly 07:05:28 but I think it's just an installation issue 07:05:40 we'll see soon enough...! 07:05:44 well, however you can correct those after you get the sources...... 07:06:20 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:08:35 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 07:09:16 Could there be a Common Lisp implementation on a system with no files? 07:09:21 Hmm, any chance anybody here is using Arch? 07:09:22 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.47.109] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:10:33 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:10:35 Sgeo: Why not? 07:10:35 chimeracoder: Why do you ask? 07:10:48 docAvid, various standard functions that talk about files 07:11:00 Which? 07:11:08 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-144-92.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:11:45 with-open-file, for instance (yes, I know that's a macro) 07:11:55 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-122-77.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:08 austinh: I'm just getting problems installing packages whichever way I try; how did you configure your setup (if you're on Arch)? 07:12:19 IIRC, before tonight, I literally installed nothing but clisp 07:12:22 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 07:12:46 chimeracoder: Most people here don't use a package manager to install Lisp related stuff. 07:13:31 chimeracoder: er, one that is related to a Linux distribution, I should say. Quicklisp is a package manager. 07:13:57 austinh: neither did I; I was wondering if that might have been the problem 07:14:26 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-69-212-127-115.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:53 chimeracoder: What lisp-related problem are you having? 07:15:33 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 07:15:39 Sgeo: I'm not an expert but it seems to me that as long as you could implement Lisp pathnames in a way that made sense for the system, you could have a complete Common Lisp. If not, the pieces that have to do with file i/o would obviously have to be left out. 07:16:51 Oh, it's just telling me that it can't find the packages, right after I installed them (first with asdf, now with quicklisp). 07:16:52 Before I spent too much time chasing this down, I wanted to make sure that this is in fact how I'm supposed to be installing it, rather than via some package 07:17:47 so thanks - I'll poke around some more 07:18:31 chimeracoder: I know some Linux distributions used to use something called "common lisp controller" that might affect the search path for lisp packages. 07:19:30 hmm, perhaps that's it 07:19:51 what distro are you on? or are you not on Linux? 07:19:59 chimeracoder: I use Debian. 07:20:26 chimeracoder: But I don't install anything Lisp related through my linux distro. 07:21:41 chimeracoder: Are you using the clisp you installed via Arch? 07:21:47 yeah, I am 07:22:07 chimeracoder: Any reason you want to use clisp? Say, rather than SBCL? 07:22:47 let me rephrase that - until tonight, I was using CLISP from the Arch repos 07:23:01 just installed SBCL, though 07:23:12 via Arch, or manually? 07:23:55 _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.47.109] has joined #lisp 07:24:17 via Arch - is there a reason to keep sbcl independent of pacman as well? 07:24:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-212-35.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:24:32 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 07:25:20 austinh: I used to use Arch for all of my development libraries, since the AUR is generally very well-maintained, and that makes it easier to keep everything consolidated 07:26:14 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-138-116.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:16 chimeracoder: The conventional wisdom is to avoid the Linux package managers when dealing with Lisp. 07:26:27 yeah 07:27:14 I'd installed it earlier tonight - I guess I'll just go back and un/re-install 07:27:24 -!- namoamitabuddha [~namoamita@114.94.227.60] has left #lisp 07:27:24 They just don't seem to keep up to date, and they use things like common-lisp-controller, which don't play well when using packages outside the distro. 07:27:38 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-122-77.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:27:59 It's really easy to install an SBCL binary and then use Quicklisp for everything else. 07:28:10 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:28:26 Maybe I should install sbcl from the website 07:28:31 My distro uses 1.0.50 07:28:41 Yeah, as I was saying, I used to use Arch for all my development libraries, but in the last three weeks or so, that stopped working so well 07:29:12 because I started having to install Perl and Haskell libraries, and I found that those were horribly disorganized, compared to the Python ones I was mostly installing before 07:30:53 mathrick [~mathrick@176.97.27.149] has joined #lisp 07:30:55 Yeah, I like Debian for all the software and libs that I really don't want to think about, but anything I deal with directly, I install manually (or use things like Quicklisp). 07:31:27 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.11.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:31:57 austinh: That's probably a good philosophy for Arch too (I don't know about Debian, but Arch is supposedly better at keeping packages up-to-date than most distros) 07:32:25 except for haskell packages (I was using xmonad), I've never had issues with the stuff that I wasn't developing directly on 07:32:56 but I threw in the towel and just started using CPAN/gem/etc 07:33:14 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-139-205.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:13 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 07:34:20 On a separate note, aside from the performance, is there a difference/advantage to SBCL vs. CLISP? 07:34:38 Kvaks [~kvaks@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 07:35:07 I was never really clear; I just used CLISP because that's how I started learning lisp 07:35:08 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-138-116.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:35:39 SBCL is what, I believe, most people use here. CLISP is often noted for its ability to run on more platforms, but it doesn't seem to be as actively maintained as SBCL. 07:36:22 I see 07:36:51 SBCL is really fantastic. Highly recommended. 07:37:05 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-140-159.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:30 Yeah, I'd been meaning to get around to it - an app I wrote recently was a perfect candidate for threading, so I wanted to give it a shot 07:39:38 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-139-205.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:42:20 what about elisp? 07:42:41 Hmm. Anyone else having problems loading the quicklisp packaged rfc2388-20120107-http with sbcl? I keep getting problems with the non-ASCII characters on the ASDF load, which doesn't seem to be respecting the :coding-system I start SLIME with. 07:43:04 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.47.109] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:43:04 theos: What about it? 07:43:22 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-114-91.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:27 austinh elicp vs clisp vs ccl vs sbcl? 07:43:44 elisp is not a Common Lisp 07:43:57 emacs lisp? 07:44:07 oh 07:44:46 To get around the problem, I just removed the non-ASCII characters, but I wonder if this is a symptom of something larger that is problematic. 07:45:11 _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.47.109] has joined #lisp 07:45:14 alright, I'm off to bed... austinh, thanks for the help 07:45:26 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:45:38 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-140-159.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:46:32 -!- chimeracoder [~phoenix@c-24-91-19-6.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:47:48 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.235] has left #lisp 07:49:29 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-43-237.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:49:40 easye: Are you on Windows? Someone mentioned an issue a few days ago regarding UTF-8 characters in the package Author's name. 07:50:04 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-43-237.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:50:08 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-179-113.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:08 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-179-113.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:50:08 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 07:52:19 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-118-179.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:08 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-114-91.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:54:20 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-43-237.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:56:25 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-229-255.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:35 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:59:38 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-118-179.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:01:08 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-229-255.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:06:11 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@65.92.153.91] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:08:06 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 08:08:14 Is it a bad idea to use *read-eval* and *print-readably* to store and retrieve hash tables? 08:14:05 francogrex [~user@109.130.139.138] has joined #lisp 08:14:15 austinh: Nope, running sbcl-1.0.55 on OS X 10.7.3, which is why this is a bit odd is that I know that Xach tests this way. 08:14:16 (LOOP FOR ((X Y)) OF-TYPE (FIXNUM) ON '((1 2) (3 4) (5 6)) COLLECT (+ X Y)) in sbcl 08:14:17 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-155-51.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:41 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:14:58 Which makes me think my definition of SLIME-LISP-IMPLEMENTATIONS in .emacs is somehow wrong. 08:15:22 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:15:47 francogrex: did you generate it randomly? 08:15:57 from the ansi tests 08:15:59 vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.2.203] has joined #lisp 08:18:03 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-234-141.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:59 is that some novel way to report bugs? writing code snippets with "in implementation" appended? 08:21:08 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-155-51.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:22:44 and it can be argued that the form is invalid 08:24:08 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-234-141.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:24:08 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:24:09 -!- cmbntr [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:25:34 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has joined #lisp 08:25:35 cmbntr [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has joined #lisp 08:27:22 If a lisp didn't have lexical scoping, would it be possible to add it? 08:27:27 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-236-130.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:05 stassats`: it's not to report a bug, it's to argue that the form is invalid, ansi-tests are not written by a God 08:29:31 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-237-19.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:00 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has joined #lisp 08:30:16 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 08:31:52 but, it is valid 08:32:38 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-236-130.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:35:31 ebw [~user@krlh-4d0340bd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:01 hi 08:37:00 I will try to expand it 08:37:28 macroexpand 08:37:31 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-140-96.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 08:37:57 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 08:38:08 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-237-19.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:39:20 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-69-212-127-115.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 08:39:54 Are environments gotten from &environment supposed to be ... usable, as in being able to look inside them? Or are they opaque, just to be passed in to macroexpand-1 and the like? 08:40:03 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-239-37.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:38 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-140-96.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:44:38 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-239-37.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:45:27 ngz [~user@69.205.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:02 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.149.138] has joined #lisp 08:48:13 they are implementation-defined. 08:48:35 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-100.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:48:43 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-100.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:49:57 -!- stlifey_ [~stlifey@116.26.30.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:50:00 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.139.138] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:52:19 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.47.109] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:53:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:56:06 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.210] has joined #lisp 08:57:01 _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.47.109] has joined #lisp 09:00:57 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-153-189.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:55 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.210] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:03:03 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-134-217.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 09:04:22 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.210] has joined #lisp 09:06:08 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-153-189.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:10:59 -!- ghuntley [~ghuntley@14-200-9-232.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:12:03 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:12:16 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-179-113.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:16 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-179-113.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 09:12:16 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 09:12:25 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-396916.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:17:17 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-219-4.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:19:33 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:20:33 ghuntley [~ghuntley@14-200-9-232.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:26:38 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-134-217.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:27:05 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:27:08 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:27:13 m7w_ [~chatzilla@80.249.86.210] has joined #lisp 09:27:16 -!- m7w_ is now known as m7w 09:31:52 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 09:32:26 fjl [~fjl@178-25-98-61-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:34:02 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-43-237.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:37:22 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-43-237.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:37:55 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-43-237.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:42:14 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-43-237.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:43:44 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-124-248.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:56 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-236-204.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:49 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-124-248.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:54:37 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 09:56:04 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@87.247.4.147] has joined #lisp 09:56:04 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:59:53 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081A77D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:12 francogrex [~user@109.130.139.138] has joined #lisp 10:02:54 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@p5081A77D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:54 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081A77D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:03:06 -!- Ragnaroek_ is now known as Ragnaroek 10:04:37 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:13:39 malbertife [~LaGaVuLiN@bl9-66-13.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 10:14:02 oh fuck you all phoney lisp hackers 10:14:13 *rohityadav* leaving this retard channel 10:14:15 -!- rohityadav [~l33t@14.139.228.210] has left #lisp 10:14:20 thank gods 10:14:33 ???what was that about? 10:15:10 Sgeo: enlightenment 10:16:41 teggi [~teggi@123.21.160.39] has joined #lisp 10:17:33 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-029-200.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:38 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:21:05 -!- colonel_panic [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:22:34 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:25:08 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.47.109] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:26:01 -!- pelirrojito [~daniel@101.98.132.91] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:26:24 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:27:29 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-115-250.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:18 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-236-204.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:30:10 -!- Vicfred [~Futaba@189.228.22.127] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:30:39 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.139.138] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:31:38 add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-40-126.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:39:18 pnq [~nick@ACA25454.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 10:39:38 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:45:08 _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.47.109] has joined #lisp 10:46:17 -!- malbertife [~LaGaVuLiN@bl9-66-13.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:46:45 malbertife [malbertife@bl9-66-13.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 10:47:50 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-396916.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:48:08 daem0n [~yaargh@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has joined #lisp 10:49:28 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-402598.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 10:55:32 fractal_heart [~mzhang@adsl-71-146-142-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:17 hagish [~hagish@p5DCBEF31.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:22 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 11:00:29 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:00:44 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 11:02:15 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5DCBEF31.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:04:19 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:04:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:05:54 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:06:00 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 11:10:02 In SBCL, I should be able to make an executable with sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die from an executable made with sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die, right? 11:13:43 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 11:14:07 http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc/ 11:14:10 Uh, that sample usage 11:14:20 The fact that the author doesn't use earmuffs in there is disconcerting 11:14:38 hagish [~hagish@p5DCBEF31.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:25 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.47.109] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:19:23 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA25454.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 11:20:05 agumonkey [agumonkey@143.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:22:19 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128177064.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 11:22:21 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-136-232.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:22:40 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.160.39] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:23:11 -!- MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:25:02 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-115-250.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:25:28 pnq [~nick@ACA25454.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 11:28:10 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-151-99.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:16 -!- kpal [~kpal@5ac28f67.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:28:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-219-4.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:29:52 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 11:29:58 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-151-99.as43234.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:30:06 -!- fractal_heart [~mzhang@adsl-71-146-142-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:30:07 [SLB] [~slabua@host89-69-dynamic.182-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:30:08 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host89-69-dynamic.182-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 11:30:08 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 11:30:10 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-136-232.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:33:27 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:35:09 kai_ [~kai@e177090103.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:35:16 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 11:35:33 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-172.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:35:35 http://paste.lisp.org/display/128272 11:36:25 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:37:36 Actually, also ,else instead of ,@else 11:37:48 Am I missing something here, or is this just nonsense? 11:38:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.55.158] has joined #lisp 11:38:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.55.158] has quit [Changing host] 11:38:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:39:03 colonel_panic [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:39:34 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@87.247.4.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:39:39 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-226-44.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:40:03 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA25454.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:40:48 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:41:52 rwiker [~rwiker@80.202.200.233] has joined #lisp 11:42:37 pnq [~nick@ACA25454.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 11:43:11 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@176.97.27.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:47:17 Oh, I don't think the , is a problem, considering if takes one form and .. wait, hmm. 11:47:31 Blah, I'm confused 11:48:11 ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.27] has joined #lisp 11:48:15 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@p5081A77D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:57 Although really it shouldn't be needed in the else clause 11:51:07 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:51:09 But still, why the symbol macro? 11:51:24 A sort of "try again" thing? 11:51:41 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has joined #lisp 11:57:24 Sgeo, yes, use of IT in the ELSE clause will run TEST again. 11:57:43 -!- colonel_panic [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:58:38 Seems strange to me, too 11:59:21 osa1 [~sinan@88.240.135.102] has joined #lisp 12:00:16 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 12:00:25 The AIF version here makes more sense to me: http://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap6.html 12:01:15 -!- kai_ [~kai@e177090103.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:02:03 ebw` [~user@krlh-4d035edc.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:38 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:03:19 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:03:24 -!- ebw [~user@krlh-4d0340bd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:04:32 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 12:04:45 Yuuhi [benni@p5483CC3E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:38 -!- fjl [~fjl@178-25-98-61-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:09:06 pon1980 [~pon1980@h66n6-haes-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:09:06 -!- Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@p5081A77D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:09:49 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:27 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:10:38 -!- daem0n [~yaargh@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has quit [Quit: o/] 12:10:44 -!- malbertife [malbertife@bl9-66-13.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [] 12:10:53 -!- pon1980 [~pon1980@h66n6-haes-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:11:33 -!- dru1d [~lukasz@ip-82-177-172-217.net.azartsat.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:11:38 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:13:03 kai___ [~kai@e179021093.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:13:37 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 12:22:03 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA25454.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:23:03 pnq [~nick@ACA25454.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:30:48 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.2.203] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:37:32 Sgeo: there are CL tutorials as short as 100 pages. Instead of asking silly questions here, you could have read it ten times and know CL already. 12:37:32 peterhil [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 12:42:29 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA25454.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:43:54 normally you'd use symbol-macrolet like that if you wanted to use IT as a place, but I don't see any instance of cl-irc doing that, and putting around just one clause is bizarre. 12:44:19 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:45:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-196.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:48:53 pnq [~nick@ACA25454.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:48:58 -!- chr_ [~user@ti0061a380-dhcp0736.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:50:21 -!- Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:53:34 CrLF0710 [~user@114.96.70.149] has joined #lisp 12:54:43 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:56:07 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 12:58:57 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@80.202.200.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:03:35 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:05:04 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-8-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:16 hm.. is cl-ledger not available via quicklisp? 13:08:14 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA25454.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:10:26 pnq [~nick@ACA25454.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:13:55 rme [~rme@50.43.184.114] has joined #lisp 13:15:41 ecraven: doesn't build 13:15:49 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:16:09 *Xach* looks for cambl 13:17:16 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:17:28 Xach: thanks. :( unfortunate, i've already upgraded all my scripts for ledger to ledger 3 syntax :( 13:17:37 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:17:55 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-132-64.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:18:33 hmm, it triggers "This is probably a bug in SBCL itself" 13:19:38 which means that sbcl is not enterprize-ready 13:19:48 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:22:34 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:49 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:23:45 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:25:08 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-253-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 13:25:29 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA25454.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:27:29 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.136] has joined #lisp 13:28:00 pnq [~nick@ACA25454.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:28:53 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 13:28:59 did the functions in LOCAL-TIME get renamed from LOCAL-TIME< to TIMESTAMP< etc.? 13:30:41 -!- osa1 [~sinan@88.240.135.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:33:24 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:33:56 Dodek [am291698@duch.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 13:36:14 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:36:28 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-177-65.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:36:30 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-177-65.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:36:58 urandom__ [~user@p548A4C18.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:48 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:39:55 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:39:57 eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has joined #lisp 13:42:39 -!- dsp_ [~dsp@cowpig.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:43:37 dsp_ [~dsp@134.117.69.79] has joined #lisp 13:44:04 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:52:08 cmm: "enterprise ready" doesn't mean "bug free"; it just means "a stable set of bugs" (at least according to all the products I've used) 13:52:14 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA25454.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:52:59 SBCL is very frustrating in that regard, that its stable enough that bugs only show up every few weeks 13:53:29 so you vaguely remember "man it did it again, just like a few months" but it happens to infrequently to establish a pattern 13:54:16 hopefully nikodemus work on removing *world-lock* stuff will help in this regards, as a lot of these seems to be deadlocks and such, related to streams 13:54:18 and clos 13:55:04 A priori, I doubt this is related to the compiler lock. 13:57:23 how does cl-ledger compares to gnucash functionality wise? 13:57:36 pkhuong: I can reliably trigger a deadlock related to the world lock 13:57:47 fe[nl]ix: with printing? 13:57:59 *maxm-* is kind of at his limit with gnucash, my last monthly import took 40 minutes, and generating income/expense report takes at least 5 minutes now 13:58:18 pkhuong: maybe, not sure. happens only under slime 13:58:34 pkhuong: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.slime.devel/10749 13:59:13 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:59:32 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:00:07 fe[nl]ix: my take on it is that basically ansi-stream stuff takes on one of the per-stream locks, then calls sb-gray generic 14:00:22 since the generic been redefined, it does (with-world-lock ....) to rebuild itself 14:00:26 -!- segfault_ [segfault@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-vjdnjjvwjbwwuxbs] has left #lisp 14:00:59 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:01:37 maxm-: your take on what? 14:02:23 pkhuong: above deadlock fe[nl]ix is having. I also seen it a few times, they happen when you define any new gray stream generics 14:02:39 i mean any new methods on gray stream generics 14:04:36 can probably create reproducible test case with a day or two of work, but I figured since nikodemus redoing all that stuff anyway, why bother 14:10:23 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 14:11:17 ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.68] has joined #lisp 14:11:18 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081A77D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:11:24 now that i think about it, does SBCL provide any guarantee on calling stream functions from two threads without locking? 14:11:38 coz slime auto-flusher thread just does finish-output, without any locking 14:12:02 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-226-44.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 14:12:07 maxm-: no. SLIME uses their own stream class. 14:12:08 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:12:28 a priori, it's the recursive locking that makes me wary. 14:13:53 But I don't know of any transparent way to work around that. The best I can come up is to stop with the recursive locking, and ignore all the messages when we'd enter recursive locking. 14:13:56 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:14:04 Also, wrap all that in without-interrupt. 14:14:13 maxm-: i've been tracking all financial transactions over 4 years now, reports are still almost instantly (though i haven't gotten cl-ledger to work yet, still using the c-version) 14:14:57 ecraven: maybe you're just not rich enough 14:15:23 that is very probably, too :) 14:15:35 no bignums used anywhere here :-/ 14:15:40 pkhuong: found it, Slime it uses (with-slime-output-stream ..) which waits on the "buffer write lock" in all its gray stream methods 14:15:49 maxm-: yes. 14:17:03 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.174.27] has joined #lisp 14:17:19 pkhuong: just thinking out loud here, if these generics (ie stream-finish-output) get modified, (by methods adding to them), then any call to them would go through (with-world-lock () ... rebuild the dirty generic function here ), and that happens before dispatch 14:17:19 osa1 [~sinan@88.240.135.102] has joined #lisp 14:18:02 could be. 14:18:09 so we have 2 cases, 1) sb-gray generics are not dirty. Any write to slime streams and flusher thread all go thrugh (with-slime-output-stream ...) which serialises on "buffer write lock" 14:18:14 I'm trying to see how hard it would be punt to sb-eval instead of deadlocking. 14:18:55 It's the recursive locking that is just patching over a fundamental issue here. 14:19:07 case 2: sb-gray generics are dirty. Any write to slime streams and flusher thread stuff, call the generic function, while holding the "buffer write lock", generic dispatch does (with-world-lock ...) to rebuild generic 14:20:02 now any output from (with-world-lock), such as "Redefining method bla bla", that potentially reaches any stream that is SLIME-OUTPUT-STREAM, will enter (with-slime-output-stream ...) recursively 14:20:14 which will block forever waiting on "buffer write lock" 14:20:19 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 14:20:33 there is your case above in all its glory.. Unless I'm completely off my rocker here 14:20:50 no, it is what likely happens. 14:21:34 There are other issues, though, and the recursive lock only helps hide some of them. 14:22:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:23:10 fundamental problem is, any compiler output, if it can go to a gray stream 14:23:42 I mean not any, but from inside of (with-world-lock) 14:23:54 This is another problem caused by threads. :) 14:23:57 no. The fundamental problem is that recursive locking is rarely if ever the answer. That code isn't re-entrant, and the compiler triggering output itself is only a common way it could happen. 14:25:00 simple solution would be to delay any compiler output, or such, by rebinding all streams to some kind of (safe-delayed-stream) thing, when rebuilidng generic stuff 14:25:13 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:15 AFAICT, none of the methods are safe to be interrupted; I don't see why they're in a recursive lock. 14:25:36 then once generics are no longer dirty, flush the output to previous values of the *standard-output* and other stream vars 14:26:03 maxm-: that only fixes a common symptom with using COMPILE in PCL. 14:27:25 pkhuong: ok, so what is your solution? basically to somehow prevent the "rebuild generics" code from reaching any user code whatsoever? I don't know of any other way that user code can be reached from there, other then writing to streams 14:27:49 maxm-: macroexpansion. 14:28:42 or, less commonly, custom transforms. 14:29:35 hmm, I think we mean diff things by "code that should not be interrupted".. I'm taking it to be the small piece, that sits in generic function dispatch and does (if (any-methods-added-to-gf) (rebuild-dispatch-stuff)), you seem to think of something bigger 14:29:50 afaik (rebuild-dispatch-stuff) won't do any macro-expension 14:29:53 Like I wrote 10 minutes ago, I'm looking into punting to sb-eval instead of deadlocking. 14:30:42 maxm-: prove it to me. Even with a codewalked/macro-expanded input, inline functions will trigger further macroexpansion. 14:30:49 pkhuong: my SBCL knowledge is not enough to extract meaning from above, so I take it as "pkhuong: i have a solution that will fix it" 14:31:00 maxm-: sb-eval is the interpreter. 14:31:42 ok then you know better.. I just kind of assumed that rebuilding generic dispatch is just fiddling with the bits in the hash tables it uses, and does not go anywhere near macro-expansion 14:32:49 Most of PCL is lock-free. There's a couple operations wrt (re)defining types that go through the world lock, but, mostly, the problem is COMPILE. 14:33:58 anyway, imho as a practical thing on what to do 14:34:06 is to write a test case for above 14:34:17 then wait for nikodemus stuff, and see if it got fixed 14:34:51 the practical thing to do is stop with the recursive locking in SWANK's streams. It doesn't fix anything. 14:36:41 don't see how thats possible, gray streams interface lets your stream be practically anything 14:37:02 I don't follow. 14:37:39 pkhuong: slime streams are implemented as gray streams. Gray streams protocol is implemented as a set of generic functions, that are called on stream objects. 14:37:48 -!- eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has left #lisp 14:37:57 true. 14:38:16 You saying methods implementing these, should not do any locking 14:38:32 no. I'm saying they shouldn't use recursive locks. 14:39:10 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:39:23 vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.2.203] has joined #lisp 14:39:57 pkhuong: I don't see how above situation would be any different if it used non-recursive lock 14:40:23 deadlock happens because it tries to obtain same lock from diff thread, how is that helped by having non-recursive lock 14:41:02 maxm-: the design should be re-viewed, because, even if we fix the CLOS thing, the recursive locking is broken. 14:41:28 I sketched an alternative, and it would be safe from the CLOS-trigered deadlock. 14:41:49 ok as long as you guys have a pathway to fix it 14:42:11 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:42:24 *maxm-* does not pretend to know enough to actually help, other then trying to figure out general outline 14:42:55 recursive locks are like regexes; you think you need recursive locks to solve a problem... 14:43:40 ouss [~user@p4FD47867.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:12 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.184.114] has quit [Quit: rme] 14:45:26 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081A77D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:29 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:46:07 anyway, if I find a few free hours, I'll try to come u with a reprocudable test case for above, so at least there is some agreement if things are working or not.. It will not use recursive locks, as I think recursive does not matter in this case.. It would deadlock with any type of serialzation, as its thread 1 watiing for B while holding A, and thread A holding B while waiting for A thing 14:47:32 inaimathi [~inaimathi@bas1-toronto61-1279436950.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:47:37 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:47:59 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:48:06 the fix is very easy if we don't care about performance (: 14:48:24 *maxm-* had completely lost his train of thougth.. goes to make coffee 14:48:43 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:48:57 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 14:50:21 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:30 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 14:59:55 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:59:59 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:01:44 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:06:36 *pjb* guesses it's Gomez who made maxm's train explode. 15:07:39 And here we have the story of how posix has recursive locks... 15:12:55 nialo-_p [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:19 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:15:20 tkellen [~tkellen@68.169.219.4] has joined #lisp 15:18:02 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:19:50 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:21:18 benny` [~benny@i577A32C6.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:21:44 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7125.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:22:42 -!- benny` is now known as benny 15:23:01 -!- nialo-_p is now known as nialo- 15:24:41 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 15:24:52 pjb: who is gomez? 15:25:15 Gomez Addams of The Addams Family. 15:27:58 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMxJtMoTnx8 15:27:58 -!- kruhft [~user@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:28:00 -!- osa1 [~sinan@88.240.135.102] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:28:05 osa1_ [~sinan@88.240.135.102] has joined #lisp 15:32:31 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:33:08 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-249.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:33:53 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:35:57 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.174.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:36:22 pkhuong: interesting read from the posix guy 15:36:26 pkhuong: interesting post 15:37:10 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:37:26 heh we finished reading it at the same time 15:37:41 :D 15:38:37 -!- gigamonkey [~pseibel@adsl-108-200-141-229.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 15:38:46 -!- apwalk [~apwalk@71-14-74-142.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:38:58 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.35.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:39:36 krake [~krake@p50859589.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:47 -!- krake [~krake@p50859589.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:39:49 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:40:39 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:41:02 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:44:26 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.58.205] has joined #lisp 15:44:50 apwalk [~apwalk@71-81-131-222.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:45:14 -!- optikalmouse [~user@bas1-toronto07-1177887058.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45:26 optikalmouse [~user@bas1-toronto07-1177887058.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:45:47 so. I can avoid COMPILE and punt to EVAL (with an opportunistic COMPILE later on when possible), with the downside that any interpreted function that's upgraded to a compiled function will still go through a trampoline (so, one more level of indirect jumping). 15:46:29 -!- CrLF0710 [~user@114.96.70.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:46:54 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:47:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.78.149] has joined #lisp 15:47:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.78.149] has quit [Changing host] 15:47:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:47:32 pkhuong: i feel I would understand it if I've seen the piece of code you talking about 15:47:37 file/function? 15:48:35 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:48:44 there are 3 functions that call COMPILE in PCL. 15:49:35 loke, p_l: there's a fork of hu.dwim.rdbms which is further ahead on the OCI support: http://src.knowledgetools.de/tomas/porting/ 15:49:49 *attila_lendvai* adds this link to the readme 15:50:47 -!- apwalk [~apwalk@71-81-131-222.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:51:57 pkhuong: ok I see it, I did not realize generating generic dispatch involves COMPILE, thought it was all bit-fiddling 15:52:26 The problem here is that COMPILE grabs the world lock; nikodemus is working to fix that. However, in the meantime, we can detect when we'd fail to grab the world lock, and instead punt to the interpreter. 15:52:29 but being realistic about it 15:52:47 why sacrifice performance, when a) you know what you are compiling 15:52:57 there 0 chance it will call any user macroexpansion 15:53:09 maxm-: where does that 0 come from? 15:53:39 -!- osa1_ [~sinan@88.240.135.102] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:53:40 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:53:42 apwalk [~apwalk@71-81-131-222.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:54:06 -!- apwalk [~apwalk@71-81-131-222.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:54:14 pkhuong: ok i'm a bit wrong 15:54:20 did not noticed ,code 15:54:42 big bit, that one 15:54:43 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:54:44 still, what are the chances of any user macroexpansion having locking? 15:55:07 only realistic scenario is the stream output, as any custom streams on threaded lisps, will have their own locks 15:55:49 so I would rather not lose even 3% performance, to be 100% correct for a scenario that can be triggered only through contortions 15:55:51 method combinations mean that we can have fairly arbitrary code in effective methods. 15:56:39 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@123.122.127.48] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58:15 just saying, my opinion is we lived with it being broken for that long, if stream output case is fixed, but other potential scenarios are not, without loss of performance that is my preferred case 15:58:34 but if you go for 100% correctness, fine with me also, you the maintainer 15:58:41 just saying my preferenrce 15:59:34 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.235] has joined #lisp 16:00:56 mensch [~mensch@c-24-128-27-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:38 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:02:35 any loss of performance would happen in case of contention on the world lock. 16:03:34 so fast method thing speed will remain the same (I mean once it regenerated things?) 16:03:38 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:04:01 if so then certainly go for 100% correctness.. I misunderstood your comment to mean there will be a permanent hit on any clos methods 16:04:24 the usual case is unaffected, and the idea is that, on the long run, the worst case is that some methods go through an additional indirect jump. 16:04:59 kruhft [~user@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:22 Even that can be fixed, actually. 16:07:19 honestly I remove my objections alltogether.. if its just 1 indirect jump it won't be noticeable over the noise 16:09:18 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:14:20 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-187022.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:15:30 Kenjin [~josesanto@a89-155-149-57.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 16:16:09 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:17:17 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-402598.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:17:40 eno [~eno@70.137.133.209] has joined #lisp 16:17:40 -!- eno [~eno@70.137.133.209] has quit [Changing host] 16:17:40 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:17:53 colonel_panic [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:18:19 -!- naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 16:18:22 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 16:19:14 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:19:55 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-188590.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:21:40 -!- kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-187022.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:22:23 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:22:41 -!- colonel_panic [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:23:39 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.87.249] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:58 lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.85.218] has joined #lisp 16:24:49 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:25:52 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 16:25:58 I passed watching the lines of #lisp go by, had dreams like this: http://xkcd.com/224/ 16:26:02 passed out* 16:26:08 kilon_alios [~kilon@ppp-94-64-187-175.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:26:36 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:26:54 But that's false, pure perl propaganda. 16:28:23 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-188590.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:28:51 perl is kinda crap 16:29:24 I used to like it 16:29:27 -!- fudanchii [~adie@180.244.166.41] has left #lisp 16:29:32 why is cells-gtk3 loading gtk2 ... 16:29:33 perl is kinda off-topic 16:29:51 whoops I forgot this isn't #emacs ... 16:31:13 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:31:19 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:33:01 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:33:02 cbp` [~user@187.208.0.7] has joined #lisp 16:33:18 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 16:33:42 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Client Quit] 16:34:31 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:35:21 sleetdrop [~sleetdrop@114.249.222.244] has joined #lisp 16:38:45 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@p5081D3AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:47 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081A77D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:40:58 -!- Ragnaroek_ is now known as Ragnaroek 16:41:29 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:42:30 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:42:40 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:44:09 -!- docAvid [~user@74-94-233-157-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:44:27 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:44:33 pjb, to me it says more "world malfunction" and less "perl's great" 16:45:27 Well, unless you consider ghosts ufos and witches, the world is rather bug free 16:47:22 I guess ignorance is bliss to some ;).. but we're off-topic 16:48:29 rme [~rme@50.43.184.114] has joined #lisp 16:49:59 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 16:50:52 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.190] has joined #lisp 16:51:53 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 16:51:54 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:52:54 The world is full of bugs. 16:53:26 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:53:44 Any introduction to human perceptual or reasoning systems will rapidly demonstrate that. 16:55:05 Any introduction to entomology will rapidly demonstrate that, too. 16:55:51 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 16:56:13 -!- inaimathi [~inaimathi@bas1-toronto61-1279436950.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 16:58:59 *optikalmouse* looks up "entomology" 17:01:12 antifuchs [foobar@care.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:16 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:06:16 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:06:20 -!- kilon_alios [~kilon@ppp-94-64-187-175.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:07:31 francogrex [~user@109.130.139.138] has joined #lisp 17:07:55 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:08:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:09:30 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:13:27 -!- optikalmouse [~user@bas1-toronto07-1177887058.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:15:44 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-8-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:17:23 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 17:17:54 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:21:48 don't turn the picture mode 17:23:55 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:24:16 Hephaistos [~Hephaisto@unaffiliated/hephaistos] has joined #lisp 17:24:44 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081D3AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:24:56 What is the best resource to get started with lisp, and specifically for webapps? 17:25:14 http://cliki.net/ 17:25:30 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:25:57 Is clisp the best lisp or lisp like dialect for webdev? 17:26:20 Hephaistos: Graham made billions writing a web application with clisp. 17:26:34 If it was good enough for him, shouldn't it be good enough for you? 17:27:08 *maxm-* really did not understood exactly what graham app was 17:27:13 Referential appeals to authority do not bely the try utility of a thing. 17:27:21 maxm-: a web shop, IIRC. 17:27:23 was it something akin to geosites, and stupid yahoo exects bought it? 17:27:40 Hephaistos: it's not an appeal to authority, it's an appeal to $$$$$$$$$. 17:27:45 coz the way I understand it, they immediately abandoned it and it basically disappeared 17:27:59 Well, they tried to rewrite it in C++ :-) 17:28:10 I've heard the argument that for the web, Clojure is what you should be using for lisp-like languages. However, I've not seen any substantial arguments either way. 17:28:18 Google's smarter, they let the ITA CL code alone. 17:28:35 Hephaistos: We don't care. Use whatever you want. 17:28:46 Nobody made a billion with Clojure yet. Somebody did with clisp. 17:29:02 web shop builder, because a web shop wouldn't be meta enough 17:29:13 Obviously you lack the perspective to comment on the question, but I'm sure you don't speak for everyone. 17:29:27 imho survivorship bias is really under-estimated.. We study and study patters of people at the top, and it always a different "special" technique, or management strategy, or whatever that brought them there, then tons of people try to emulate.. Yet maybe original guy was just at the right place at the right time 17:29:34 realitygrill [~realitygr@69.212.127.115] has joined #lisp 17:29:41 Hephaistos: All right, don't worry anymore I'm /ignoring you. 17:29:57 and I'm fairly sure I've actually bought something from someone using the yahoo store thing after when it would have been bought out, so I don't think it disappeared completely 17:30:16 . 17:30:43 Hephaistos: seriously like, you should be using 1. If on linux SBCL 2. If on windows CCL or Lispworks 17:31:11 You mean for development environment or webserver? 17:31:14 Hephaistos: pretty much all libraries will work on SBCL and CCL. SBCL is known for very fast code, but slow compilation time, CCL for very fast compilation times and somewhat slower code. 17:31:48 for development.. For actual production, you have to decide for yourself, and /me recommending something would be stupid as I don't run production website 17:32:05 mgodshall [~quassel@pool-108-36-207-226.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:18 Ok. I mean from a pure utility standpoint though. I'm very interested to use clisp, but I've heard that the lisp webservers are lacking, and that for the web, Clojure is a superior platform at this time. Is there any truth to this statement? 17:32:37 personally at this particular point, if I had to run web app in production, I would run CCL (with no disrespect or anything to SBCL, which is my main lisp for development) 17:33:34 Hephaistos: pretty much bullshit.. Clojure is niche "look ma, I can compile to jvm language. You'll be doing enterprise java basically, with lisp syntax 17:33:56 I see. 17:33:57 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 17:34:52 your libraries will be java libraries. To do anything interesting you'll have to read javadocs. Pretty much you will be better off with just tomcat and eclipse 17:36:29 I'm completely new to the functional paradigm, coming over from the popular interpreted scripting languages PHP/Ruby/Python for webdev. Something I fear is poor documentation and ambiguous implementation methods. 17:36:42 In Hunchentoot up to par with Apache et al.? 17:37:25 *maxm-* is not qualified to answer this, as I did not do any serious lisp web development, other then hello world type stuff 17:37:31 <|3b|> Hephaistos: this channel is about Common lisp, which we abbreviate CL. "clisp" is a specific implementation of common lisp 17:39:15 OK. I'm trying to ascertain if CL is the best choice for a budding functional programmer specifically targeting web development. 17:39:24 <|3b|> CL doesn't have any particular focus on "functional" 17:39:39 <|3b|> it is quite happy to mix iterative, OO, functional and metaprogramming 17:39:49 It is however classified as a functional language. 17:40:04 I do understand it is a multi-paradigm language. 17:40:33 I'm especially interesting in the metaprogramming/DSL aspect of it. 17:40:52 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.58.205] has quit [Quit: tensorpudding] 17:41:11 *|3b|* suspects most of the people active here would use CL when given a choice 17:41:27 I am reading the examples in rosettacode.org. Some codes are disgraceful! 17:41:38 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:41:41 *|3b|* suspects that is a rather biased sample though 17:42:09 I'm looking for a biased sample, hopefully someone able to say "This is why CL is the best choice for web dev vs. other languages" 17:42:30 <|3b|> because it is the best language in general 17:42:31 http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Hash_from_two_arrays as an example 17:42:47 <|3b|> (not that 'best' says much) 17:42:58 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.58.205] has joined #lisp 17:43:02 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:43:21 <|3b|> if you want to assemble ready made components, CL might not help you as much as more popular languages 17:43:31 |3b|: I found a better languages: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Loops/For#Chef 17:43:32 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:33 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:43:33 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:44:11 it's the best in the world 17:44:18 Pre-packaged components a la ruby gems are certainly a plus, but if CL is powerful enough that I can roll my own with some degree of brevity, I'm not adverse to it. 17:45:02 Speed of implementation is my primary concern. 17:45:55 If CL is the "best" language but even at an intermediate skill level projects take twice the time to develop and deploy, it's not the best for a high turnover web dev company. 17:46:06 Which I run. 17:46:28 use other languges then, C CPP JAVA etc 17:46:53 I routinely deploy 2-3 projects a month, and what I want is to know if CL would allow me to deploy 3-5 project a month at an upper skill level 17:47:23 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-146-145.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:29 Almost all of my webapps are basic CRUD, nothing too fancy. 17:48:37 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:49:11 Hephaistos: I'd suggest learning more about CL in the background, then figure it out for yourself 17:49:15 CL is not always the best choice for well-trodden territory workable by unskilled interchangeable parts. 17:49:27 and that ^ 17:49:41 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:41 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:49:41 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:49:47 it makes for easy metaprogramming, but it might take time to get there 17:49:54 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.210] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:50:07 I see. 17:50:22 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.210] has joined #lisp 17:50:52 its more simular to perl in that regard then to ruby or python, that there are mulitple competing libraries for almost everything 17:51:43 so you have to chose and decide for yourself, or roll your own.. with quicklisp CL is getting its own CPAN-like thing, so its easy to test stuff out 17:53:59 webserver wise aserve is old / stable / working, hunchentoot is latest and greatest, stable and in active development, drakma is lisps equivalent of perl lwp-request stuff 17:54:45 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.235] has left #lisp 17:54:56 <|3b|> do people still use aserve? 17:55:05 Jovlang [~user@36.109-247-16.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:11 isnt paste.lisp.org runs on it? 17:55:12 Hmm. I just have this urge to get the hell out of PHP/Ruby and to a lesser extent Python (which I use for sysadmin as well as webdev), but it just always comes back to PHP/Ruby just being the best tool for the job these days, mostly just on their critical mass alone. 17:55:16 if so tons of ppl use it every day 17:55:53 I hate PHP as a language. 17:56:57 <|3b|> looks like it uses araneida, which is pretty dead whether lisppaste uses it or not 17:56:58 again try it.. You probably won't find as many lisp programmers as PHP programmers, but those that you find will be of higher quality 17:57:04 Looking at lisp/scheme and also Haskell/Erlang, I just see there's a better way...but the ecosystems are still too anemic for a production company. We don't really do any cutting edge stuff. 17:57:11 if you pay $80-100/hour, I'm sure Xach will go work for you :-) 17:57:38 or maybe not, /me is not sure where the salaries are for senior developers are these days 17:58:04 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.235] has joined #lisp 17:58:37 -!- ouss [~user@p4FD47867.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:58:43 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:58:45 is it just me or are cdadr, caadar etc hard to grok? is it good style? 17:59:02 <|3b|> usually a bad sign 17:59:12 <|3b|> you should be using some better abstraction 17:59:21 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:44 Jovlang: there are a small handful that are recognized fairly easily. old-timers sometimes can instantly tell you "that accesses the first arg of the lambda list of a defun form" or similar. 17:59:57 (first (second list)) is clearer then (cadr list) imho 18:00:20 <|3b|> wouldn't that be (first (rest list))? 18:00:30 only one thats clearer then first/rest is (cdddr list) seems better then (rest (rest (rest list))), but you can also use (subseq list 3) 18:00:31 <|3b|> or (second list)? 18:00:50 well actually that would make a copy, but anyway 18:01:13 |3b|: thats why its clearer :-) 18:01:42 <|3b|> (nthcdr 3 list)? 18:01:48 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:02:23 is this code reasonably clear: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128277 18:02:55 <|3b|> SETF is generally preferred over SETQ 18:03:03 anyway, these are for adhoc development, when you change things on a fly, and don't want to lose your train of thought, you do them.. But once you refactor/rewrite a bit, you abstract them out, use (destructuring-bind), or change your lists to CLOS objects anyway 18:03:22 <|3b|> and if nact-lists is global, you should use DEFVAR or DEFPARAMETER and name it *nact-lists* 18:03:39 this is elisp 18:03:40 Jovlang: completly incomprehensible to me at 1st glance 18:03:47 just asking about the cadar etc part 18:03:51 <|3b|> if it is elisp, you should ask #emacs :p 18:04:29 don't you all use emacs? ;o 18:04:38 no 18:04:46 <|3b|> we use emacs to edit CL code 18:06:49 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:06:56 -!- Hephaistos [~Hephaisto@unaffiliated/hephaistos] has left #lisp 18:07:19 <|3b|> a better abstraction would help there, nothing says what the structure of those lists is or should be 18:07:29 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 18:08:37 <|3b|> if it has to stay as lists, you could hide the c[ad]r stuff behind accessors, or you could switch to structs or classes or whatever elisp has 18:08:58 Kenjin_ [~josesanto@a89-155-149-57.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 18:09:48 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:10:51 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:11:42 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@a89-155-149-57.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:13:25 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.11.254] has joined #lisp 18:19:02 ha, I ended up using caar, cadar, caadar and cdadar within 20 lines 18:19:06 i'll rewrite later 18:19:44 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:21:47 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:23:07 sounds like made up sci-fi race language.. kdar kadar! kadakar kar?! 18:24:22 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 18:24:43 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-177-65.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:24:55 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 18:25:31 well, it looks like it works. 18:26:06 aye 18:26:07 and bye 18:26:18 and sb-eval got a tiny feature improvement (compiling interpreted functions that close over values) on the way. 18:26:24 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-177-65.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:26:26 -!- dmj111 [~user@c-98-235-94-211.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:26:34 *maxm-* rolls out the shoulder patting machine 18:26:42 -!- ngz [~user@69.205.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:26:45 but seriously you the man 18:28:13 iLogical [~iLogical@187.59.66.175] has joined #lisp 18:28:14 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@187.59.66.175] has quit [Changing host] 18:28:14 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 18:29:42 Huh, ColdFusion now has something called cfscript? 18:30:51 -!- Jovlang [~user@36.109-247-16.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:31:46 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356]] 18:32:42 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Client Quit] 18:32:53 iLogical [~iLogical@187.59.66.175] has joined #lisp 18:32:54 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@187.59.66.175] has quit [Changing host] 18:32:54 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 18:33:14 -!- sleetdrop [~sleetdrop@114.249.222.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:42 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Client Quit] 18:34:57 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 18:35:19 asvil` [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 18:35:29 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:37:08 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:38:51 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:41:29 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:44:39 Kenjin [~josesanto@a89-155-149-57.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 18:47:14 -!- Kenjin_ [~josesanto@a89-155-149-57.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:47:46 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:48:38 -!- drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 18:50:32 Sgeo: and that is relevant to #lisp exactly how? 18:50:54 Well, obviously, lisp hasn't anything called lpscript! 18:52:31 H4ns, someone linked to a Rosetta Code page 18:52:46 No actual relevance to Lisp 18:53:00 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:53:19 I have a question about the difference between (progv ...) and (let ((..)) (declare (special ...)) ...) perhaps best posed as a paste http://paste.lisp.org/display/128281 18:53:46 drwho [~drwho@216-122-174-206.gci.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:50 I linked to the rosetta code, I like to see and compare the weirdness of the languages? CL is there as well, very present 18:55:23 Vivitron: the question is when the bindings are known. For a lexical binding, it's known at compilation time, since it's in the source text. Therefore the compiler can resole the references at compilation time. Hence the first x is the lexical x, and it's value is 0. 18:55:48 Vivitron: progv creates the dynamic bindings at run-time. So only run-time expressions such as (symbol-value 'x) can get them. 18:56:15 Or if you call a function that refers to a special variable named x. 19:00:38 Thank you, I think that clears it up for me. 19:01:47 You could have something like: (progv (list (progn (format *query-io* "Variable? ") (finish-output *query-io*) (read *query-io*))) ) 19:02:03 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-137-134.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:22 (it would make sense if you had some eval in there with some expression read from the user too refering the same variable ;-) 19:05:02 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-146-145.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:05:12 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.139.138] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:06:15 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA011C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:07:45 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-178-006-217-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 19:10:20 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 19:10:29 maxm-: does the test case in look right? 19:11:55 pkhuong: Yea that looks right, altho I did not wrote my own test case yet 19:12:09 make fe[nl]ix test it with his iolib rebuild thing 19:14:22 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:14:23 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:59 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:15:41 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:15:41 lol 19:16:14 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:16:21 Pushed in all its gory history, at . 19:17:09 Jovlang [~user@36.109-247-16.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:12 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-8-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:20 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.176] has joined #lisp 19:18:30 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 19:18:54 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:42 pkhuong: will test 19:20:16 *maxm-* adds pkhuong to "do not diss" list 19:22:14 *maybe* the upgrading logic should be moved to sb-eval. I'll think about it some other time. Time to work on that other sort of optimisation, the one that brings in scholarships ;) 19:24:04 iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 19:24:18 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:24:33 dto [~user@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:12 -!- dcguru [~chatzilla@66.129.60.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:31:41 I failed to understand the (subst 'wrap-function 'identity lambda-form) part 19:32:04 dcguru [~chatzilla@66.129.60.130] has joined #lisp 19:37:51 Kryztof: we have some function-generating functions. We also want lazy/opportunistic re-compilation to apply to the result of function-generating functions. 19:38:47 That's what wrap-function does. But we don't want that on the result of actually compiled functions, so I used to take the wrapping code out. It's simpler to just depend on a compiler macro, though. 19:43:04 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-029-200.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:44:09 -!- axion is now known as branbran 19:44:15 -!- branbran is now known as axion 19:46:06 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:48:08 z1l0g [~jgw@216.99.214.24] has joined #lisp 19:48:16 hola 19:48:49 ˇHola! 19:48:55 how can I use ":" as a character object? #\: won't work 19:49:17 z1l0g: why not? 19:50:28 dunno - I'm working thru the LoL book and am trying to extend a tweak-text block to deal with ":" 19:52:23 in the REPL the data after ":" gets treated as variable 19:52:55 *Xach* does not understand, might understand with a paste to paste.lisp.org 19:53:16 heh, yeah, sorry - just a second.... 19:53:38 Can anyone point me to a Lisp package that is written in a functional style? 19:53:46 -!- iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:19 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 19:54:46 zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:55 FSet? 19:55:54 pkhuong: Thanks! 19:57:05 McRibbit [~user@astmatix.ida.liu.se] has joined #lisp 19:57:55 I downloaded a library from quicklisp, and it has a bug that is easy to fix, but makes the library unusable. What's the kosher thing to do? 1)Modify the file(s) in /quicklisp/software/.. or 2)Take a copy of the system and include it as part of my project? 19:58:37 zulu_inuoe: take a copy in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ 19:58:47 zulu_inuoe: i don't quite understand how fixing the bug makes it unusable. how does that work? 19:58:53 zulu_inuoe: i tend to copy th project to local-projects in that case, fix it locally and contact the author 19:59:11 Xach: Aha sorry I meant the big itself makes it unusable. The fix is very trivial and fixes it 19:59:15 the bug* 19:59:28 zulu_inuoe: ah, what madnificent and pjb said, then. 19:59:43 Roger. Thanks all 20:00:19 @Xach: okay - here's code and REPL session ooutput: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128285 20:00:36 zulu_inuoe: firing off email or openinng issue (if library is on github) about the bug is also a good idea 20:01:04 maxm-: Yes, I've already opened an issue on their github 20:02:40 z1l0g: I understand. The behavior of : in a symbol is deeply hard-wired into CL. You could use FOO\: if you want to still use it. 20:02:45 basically I just want to have ":" in input be treated as character object 20:03:22 z1l0g: not quite. what you're asking is for : in a symbol to be part of its name rather than a package marker. 20:03:31 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:03:32 iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 20:03:32 I see; probably this example isn't really how the task would be accomplished in practice 20:03:39 #\: works fine here. 20:03:57 Ralith: see paste. 20:04:10 z1l0g: you are confusing (quoted lists of) symbols and strings. 20:04:15 really? I'm using ECL so maybe it's implementation-depenent 20:04:20 no. 20:04:48 z1l0g: it's common in older or introductory texts to represent text as lists of symbols. You get a form of tokenizing for free this way. 20:04:48 you are feeding your code a list of symbols. This is not a string, and does not contain characters. 20:04:55 z1l0g: your mention of "character objects" is confusing. it's not really at issue here. 20:05:28 However, it's a shortcut, and, if you want strings, you should (ultimately) work with strings. Symbols aren't strings, as you just discovered. 20:05:49 oh okay; I got the term when searching on "#\" on l1sp.org 20:07:03 yeah, think I'll not fiddle with this bit of code and move on to the next chapter 20:07:11 fractal_heart [~mzhang@adsl-71-146-136-146.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:36 thanks for the feedback though; very helpful 20:08:17 -!- z1l0g [~jgw@216.99.214.24] has quit [Quit: That's it for today] 20:11:50 coming from doing metaprogramming in ruby, i found symbols to be slightly annoying in common lisp at first. i realised that it was the correct way of doing things, but it felt more cumbersome. i'm not surprised someone got confused over it as i don't think other languages have visible equivalents. 20:12:44 -!- asvil` [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:13:37 I think symbols are a pretty cool guy, eh is very versatile and doesnt afraid of anything 20:16:10 -!- rme [rme@833E80F1.333FC83A.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Quit: rme] 20:16:10 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.184.114] has quit [Quit: rme] 20:16:37 madnificent, hmm, what are things like in Ruby vs CL? 20:17:02 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-137-134.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:47 Sgeo: you use strings in ruby. that works just fine until you try to combine multiple code-generating abstractions. the method names could easily clash. 20:18:24 osa1 [~sinan@31.140.112.214] has joined #lisp 20:19:02 Things like monkey-patching in Ruby and Smalltalk always bother me, I feel like the possibility of conflict is too high 20:19:19 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-137-134.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:19:20 Sgeo: ruby is more centered on building code that looks as if you wrote it. common lisp correctly abstracts the meaning, adding some added complexity (which fades away over time), ensuring that you don't get into big problems by the time you can't fix them anymore. 20:19:30 Sgeo: indeed 20:20:01 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:45 madnificent, I think z1l0g's confusion could easily come from some tutorials that represent what is really textual data like '(you are in a house) 20:24:40 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:14 When I first learned CL from a professor and we were "learning" the load function, he said "Load is the only place were you will ever use double quotes". Oh boy 20:25:35 o.O 20:25:50 Was it spelled LISP? 20:26:05 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-124-174.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:05 LISP. a digital frontier. 20:26:10 Haha. Yes he's an old timer.. 20:26:20 I have to say, I wouldn't mind being able to use quasiquotation with strings... 20:28:02 In one of the programs were we generated output (HE WANTED IT TO LOOK LIKE THIS) 20:28:39 I.E. (print (list 'this 'is 'silly)) 20:29:16 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-137-134.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:29:27 zulu_inuoe, did he mean in his class? 20:29:33 Or in general when working with CL? 20:29:54 I -hope- it was the former. But deep down I know he meant the latter 20:31:02 impulse32 [~impulse@65.92.153.91] has joined #lisp 20:31:45 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.132.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:34:05 *Xach* hacks more on quickproject 20:35:37 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 20:35:41 Xach: Adding new features? 20:36:00 austinh: yeah. going to make it process a directory for template files. 20:36:14 Yay! That's exactly what I was hoping for. 20:36:28 I use it a lot and I keep meaning to customize it. 20:37:50 Hopefully will be done today. 20:38:04 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-124-174.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 20:38:11 *Xach* has had some hacking success this week via caffeine 20:39:16 asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879AE1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:40:30 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:40:49 -!- osa1 [~sinan@31.140.112.214] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:41:09 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA011C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:41:18 Xach do you mean the drug or is that some new framework 20:41:35 :) 20:42:25 im actually trying to cut back on coffee. its great for programming, but not so great for the stomach or for sleep 20:42:39 It's even better for programming after a break (: 20:43:01 hello pkhuong. 20:43:39 *hefner* only recently learned he can program without excessive caffeine, and probably more effectively 20:44:13 I'd say it depends on the task. 20:44:44 dto: I abstain most of the time. 20:44:52 dto: so lately, when i use it, it works 20:45:12 pkhuong: build ok, now running the tests 20:45:26 fe[nl]ix: nice. 20:45:33 Xach: id like to get back there. i'm at that place where you just get back to baseline after 2 cups 20:45:58 did you work on quicklisp ? 20:46:19 dto: A bit, yeah. 20:46:25 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.93.147] has joined #lisp 20:47:04 cool. 20:47:23 hefner: madness, next thing you'll say we have to give up our modafinil and adderal too 20:48:45 pkhuong: seems fine, only 3 expected failures 20:49:33 maxm-: keep'em, if you can use them without your "programming" degenerating into six hours of reading wikipedia articles about physics that you don't understand. 20:50:47 fe[nl]ix: now let's see if it fixes the deadlocks in iolib 20:51:11 hefner: from what I understand they supposed to have the opposite effect ie hyper-focus, not ADHD 20:51:34 pkhuong: it didn't :( 20:51:54 fe[nl]ix: Can you get me a backtrace of all the threads involved? 20:51:55 fe[nl]ix: doh 20:53:20 pkhuong: slime only prints one backtrace then unwinds, apparently 20:54:06 Say I have an output character stream, is there a standard way to create an (unsigned-byte 8) stream that outputs into that character stream? 20:54:15 fe[nl]ix: judicious use of list-all-threads, interrupt-thread and backtrace-as-list should work(?) 20:54:19 fe[nl]ix: whats your test case, simply building? you delete-system al the iolib.xxxx packages, then rebuild? 20:55:06 zulu_inuoe: no 20:55:18 Xach: Roger roger. Thanks bud 20:55:25 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.149.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:55:32 krrrcks [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has joined #lisp 20:55:35 pkhuong: http://pastebin.com/kmcYGufd 20:55:42 zulu_inuoe: you can kinda do the opposite with flexi-streams 20:58:00 fe[nl]ix: it's the auto-flush thread's I'm interested in. 20:58:09 Xach: Good tip. Thanks 20:59:13 hmm pastebin.com does not even resolve here 20:59:23 hi! i have a small lisp project. we are going to put our data in a postgresql database. the production system will be linux, but some of my colleagues are working with windows. I am not sure if I should use CL-SQL or postmodern. Any hints how to decide? 20:59:39 just fixed itself 20:59:42 krrrcks: postmodern is more modern 20:59:49 krrrcks: postmodern 21:00:00 krrrcks: it doesn't use FFI at all, it speaks the postgres protocol. it has a nice abstract query syntax. 21:00:16 Ah! No FFI sounds interesting! :) 21:00:18 it has great docs. 21:00:41 I had some issued with CL-SQL ... (last project I used it with SQLITE) .... 21:01:33 Well, then I'll give postmodern a try! :) *G* 21:01:48 maxm-: I just rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl*/work/iolib/ 21:02:05 I have flipped through the project page and it looked interesting. 21:03:36 fe[nl]ix: and then you just load-system? 21:03:48 ,l 21:03:59 hmm just did same several time, and it does not happen 21:04:29 *maxm-* is actually on old sbcl, 1.0.50.46 21:04:38 but I'm in debug 3 mode, lemme restart 21:05:43 fe[nl]ix: another question, are you on actual snp machine, ie real multiple cores or cpus? 21:06:32 alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-249.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:44 maxm-: core i7 21:07:45 hmm now when I try to recompile it, it gives me :warning: IOLIB.BASE also exports the following symbols: (... everything in CL package ) 21:07:55 iolib from cl:quickload 21:08:00 ka2be [~ka2be@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:08:02 ka2be_ [~ka2be@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:08:09 -!- ka2be [~ka2be@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:09 -!- ka2be_ [~ka2be@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:11 pkhuong: what happens if a thread had interrupts disabled and I call interrupt-thread ? 21:08:15 maxm-: use HAED 21:08:43 fe[nl]ix: the interruption is logged and delayed. 21:09:20 fe[nl]ix: git://gitorious.org/iolib/iolib.git is teh right place? 21:10:03 wuj [~wuj@207-237-2-224.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:10:17 maxm-: https://github.com/sionescu/iolib 21:10:53 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 21:12:15 hmm says can't find :idna 21:13:25 -!- dmh [~dmh@unaffiliated/dmh] has left #lisp 21:13:54 what C lib do i need to intsall? 21:13:59 coz it can't find lfp.h 21:14:51 libfixposix 21:15:03 mathrick [~mathrick@176.97.27.149] has joined #lisp 21:15:06 I guess? 21:15:16 -!- McRibbit [~user@astmatix.ida.liu.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:15:32 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.93.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:16:16 osa1 [~sinan@31.140.112.214] has joined #lisp 21:16:18 p_l: yes 21:16:37 maxm-: https://github.com/sionescu/libfixposix 21:16:41 -!- krrrcks [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has left #lisp 21:16:50 maxm-: or see http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.iolib.devel/422 21:17:37 meh damn thing installed itself into /usr/local/lib rather then /usr/local/li64 21:18:33 weird still can't find it 21:19:09 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA011C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:19:40 -!- ebw` [~user@krlh-4d035edc.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:50 ok, make install forgot to run ldconfig apparently 21:21:22 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:21:49 fe[nl]ix: I now have full replication of your setup, and just did my first rm -rf ~/.cache and ,load cycle, still no reproduction 21:22:51 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.2.203] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 21:23:00 *maxm-* gonna download pkhuong branch, see if it fails tehre 21:27:38 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5DCBEF31.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:27:58 MrBusiness [~MrBusines@184.99.7.19] has joined #lisp 21:28:36 blah, doc/clean.sh goes into forever loop if tehre is no manual directory 21:29:24 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-40-126.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:31:31 in fact that shit just forkbombed my system 21:31:50 *maxm-* has 15000 sh clean.sh processes 21:31:52 wtf 21:32:05 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-237-2-224.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:32:07 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:01 -!- acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has left #lisp 21:33:21 -!- sellout1 is now known as sellout 21:34:07 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@164-177-151-185.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:34:07 fe[nl]ix: I have an additional patch; no clue if it's principled, though. 21:34:24 daem0n [~yaargh@host-89-241-100-80.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:25 -!- daem0n [~yaargh@host-89-241-100-80.as13285.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:34:25 daem0n [~yaargh@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has joined #lisp 21:34:29 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-170.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:34:44 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-170.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:36:50 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-177-65.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:36:57 pkhuong: just a moment 21:37:15 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-177-65.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:37:24 daniel__2 [~daniel@p5082ABF4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:00 *maxm-* is having hallucinations 21:38:14 must be all thoes stimulants. 21:38:15 fe[nl]ix: http://paste.lisp.org/+2QZG/2. It works on my really artificial snippet. 21:38:40 http://i.imgur.com/2JM1W.png <--- bash and zsh work fine, sh can't find directory 21:38:54 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:38:59 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:39:14 -!- daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082BC44.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:40:12 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:40:23 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 21:41:06 ok, apparently CDPATH from the env confuses /bin/sh 21:41:12 thought I was going crazy for a second 21:42:33 pkhuong: I'm compiling your version, and will try to reproduce his thing 21:42:49 maybe its something that got broken between 1.0.52 and tip 21:43:16 1.0.50 rather, thats what I got 21:44:17 pkhuong: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128287 21:45:29 pkhuong: http://common-lisp.net/~sionescu/snooper.log 21:45:35 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:46:17 fe[nl]ix: nice. Is there a deadlock in there? 21:48:18 no, but there's an instance of "World lock" after a (SB-PCL::CACHE-MISS-VALUES # pkhuong: my analysis of the backtrace is like this: after (defmethod) that changed the gray stream generics, 1st guy who gets to call them, is slime auto-flush-thread, which is sitting there holding "write buf lock" and world lock. At the same time, main thread (where asdf:loading continues), prints some output, which does (with-recursive-lock "write-buf-lock"), which calls check-deadlock, which detects deadlock 21:49:32 I don't understand why check-deadlock detects one, because at this point the main thread is printing a message from iolib-grovel, and it should not be holding world-lock.. 21:49:49 so really main thread should simply be sitting waiting 21:51:32 ahh actually main thread tries to write output, gets to stream-write-string, which tries to obtain world lock 21:51:49 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:52:03 pkhuong: see frame # 271, thats where your code should have fixed it 21:53:37 there's nothing at 271. 21:53:38 actually cancel that, got mixed up.. my original analisys is right 21:53:58 271: ((SB-PCL::FAST-METHOD STREAM-WRITE-STRING (SWANK-BACKEND::SLIME-OUTPUT-STREAM T)) # # # "; " 0 2) 21:53:58 21:54:26 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-8-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:55:06 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-172.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:14 thats the main thread trying to write to slime stream, at this point it enters (with-slime-output-whatever (with-recursive-lock-held "buffer write lock"), write lock is at this point held by auto-flush-thread... 21:56:46 all this goes on through frames from 271 through 266, at which point I would have expected main thread to simply wait on "buffer write lock" 21:56:56 but for some reason check-deadlock fires 21:57:01 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:57:47 -!- Jovlang [~user@36.109-247-16.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:01:52 running pkhuong sbcl drops me into ldb with heap exhausted when swank is loading.. Gonna run tests.sh 22:02:46 dru1d [~lukasz@ip-82-177-172-217.net.azartsat.pl] has joined #lisp 22:03:39 pkhuong: compiling with that last patch ... 22:04:21 -!- osa1 [~sinan@31.140.112.214] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:04:52 has anyone gotten the diff hunk naming trick to work? 22:05:04 *maxm-* has it working 22:05:08 fe[nl]ix: actually, I have another patch that'll help with the backtrace *you* observed. 22:05:17 if globally does not work for you, you need git >=1.7.4 22:05:28 DataLinkDroid [~David@1.130.200.28] has joined #lisp 22:05:51 no, I've got 1.7.4.4 but can't seem to get it working globally or locally 22:06:30 slyrus: paste your ~/.gitconfig and ~/.gitattributes on paste.lisp.org 22:06:56 pkhuong: ok, I'm waiting 22:07:03 slyrus: also do strace git diff 2>&1 | grep gitattr 22:07:21 stylus: it will show if it indeed tires to access ~/.gitattributes 22:07:23 fe[nl]ix: http://paste.lisp.org/+2QZG/3 <- no need to lock when the layout is valid. 22:07:57 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:04 wow, that (and ...) line is full of copy/pasted redundancy (: 22:09:43 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-117-154.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:52 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@a89-155-149-57.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 22:10:03 ferhr1 [~ferhr@186.215.18.55] has joined #lisp 22:10:15 ok, compiling 22:11:25 I'm off for supper. Back in ~1h. 22:11:26 What do people think about denest? 22:12:05 weird, after running tests.sh, it now runs without dropping myself into ldb 22:13:22 *maxm-* hits himself upside the head... Apparetly I forgot to switch to pkhuong branch before compiling, no wonder its fubared 22:14:20 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:15:00 -!- ferhr1 [~ferhr@186.215.18.55] has left #lisp 22:16:30 *Sgeo* is trying and failing to explain to a non-Lisper why the name denest makes sense. 22:16:39 Considering that what denest does is actually does the nesting. 22:16:49 maxm-: ok, got it working. thanks! 22:17:41 slyrus: you welcome, what was it misspelt filename? 22:18:02 misplaced. should have been in .git. and then eventually I got it working globally. 22:22:53 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.11.254] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7-dev] 22:25:06 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:26:20 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-139-121.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:10 -!- xjrn [~chatzilla@c-67-174-244-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 10.0.1/20120308152750]] 22:28:54 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-117-154.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:32:54 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:34:36 Sgeo: you are an idiot: http://groups.google.com/groups/search?hl=en&as_q=denest&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=10&scoring=&lr=&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=2012&as_maxd=1&as_maxm=1&as_maxy=2012&as_ugroup=comp.lang.lisp&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&safe=off Since irc logs are on http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ 22:34:36 https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Accl.clozure.com+denest&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a 22:34:47 Sgeo: nobody ever used the word 'denest' in cll or in #lisp! 22:34:49 meh I kept misreading that stack trace... damn thing is too confusing with the mutex / thread recursive printing... Mutex prints the thread thats holding it, which inside of it prints mutex its waiting on, which inside of it prints thread that holding it 22:35:11 -!- daem0n [~yaargh@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has quit [Quit: o/] 22:35:36 pjb, there's one hit. Unless you're trying to tell me I should have googled? 22:36:16 No. I'm trying there's no point in poping random words on #lisp asking what people think about them. 22:36:29 http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/9ijq1/before_you_start_learning_lisp/c0cxop0 22:36:39 reddit! Mouahaha! 22:36:44 http://lisp-editor.berlios.de/autodoc-many/Package_DENEST.html#Package_DENEST 22:38:22 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 22:39:02 Sgeo: it's like if I asked what people think of sgr. 22:39:14 It's but an obscure macro in my sources. Who cares? 22:39:27 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 22:39:52 ooh ooh, I've got a function named SGR! I bet it does something completely unrelated to yours! 22:40:19 Matter of fact, there's also a function SGR in COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM.ECMA048. 22:40:31 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 22:40:40 Probably nothing in common with that sgr macro. 22:40:46 its a real deadlock, with repl thread holding "world lock", and trying to obtain Slime's "buffer write lock" inside of slime's stream-write-string. The auto-flush-thread is trying to obtain write-lock, while holding "buffer write-lock".. 22:41:09 rme [~rme@50.43.184.114] has joined #lisp 22:41:17 problem is, slime uses recursive lock, and calls its own finish-output from its own stream-write-string, while holding its own lock, which succeeds, because lock is recursive 22:41:34 I *think* I like the "denest" idea, but can't imagine myself using it. 22:43:04 but since all gray stream generics are dirty, the finish-output tries to obtain world lock, which is currently held by REPL thread, that had rebuild the generic function it was rebuilding, but still calls it with world lock held 22:45:21 nepnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:49:23 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 22:54:20 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.148.198.127] has joined #lisp 22:57:00 pkhuong: that worked 22:57:06 :) 22:57:41 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.58.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:00:13 ahh cool, so it was the with-world-lock in wrapper.lisp 23:01:23 *maxm-* still could not reproduce it, I've made a loop of compiling iolib's gray.lisp, and changed auto-flush-timeout to 0, but it just keeps chagging along.. My box is either to fast or too slow not sure which 23:02:17 what cpu ? 23:02:23 quat opteron 23:02:34 well actually 2 2-core opterons 23:03:21 imho debugging this would have been so much eaiser if there was option for teh lock, to remember the call site it was locked from 23:03:32 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:46 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:04:11 trivial to do in C/C++ with __FILE__ and __LINE__, actually probably trivial in sbcl also, same way I do extract "function being compiled" from lexenv 23:06:11 ie # would have been obvious where it came from 23:06:36 Kenjin [~josesanto@a89-155-149-57.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 23:08:35 Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:47 hello Faré 23:09:26 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483CC3E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:10:40 Fare: I think ASDF should get file encoding support, I'm working on it 23:11:01 what say you about that ? 23:12:28 -!- iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:15:03 file encoding support? 23:15:10 as in utf8 vs whatever? 23:15:20 yes, that probably would be nice, if not too intrusive. 23:15:32 and that probably needs to be in asdf itself vs an extension. 23:16:01 hi 23:16:24 I'm modifying ASDF itself 23:17:00 yes, I believe that's kind of required to do it right. 23:17:01 sigh. 23:17:08 the priority chain would be: global default(UTF8), overridden by a system-specific setting, overridden by a modeline in the file 23:17:11 did you see my package-renaming.git ? 23:17:34 currently, the global default is to let the implementation choose. 23:17:42 I'm a little bit worried about changing the default. 23:17:44 absolutely not 23:17:48 utf8 23:17:49 -!- mgodshall [~quassel@pool-108-36-207-226.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:18:00 to be compatible with emacs, I need to get to the "coding" file-variable 23:18:06 that will break the port to Genera :-) 23:18:21 at least that's what I understand from https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Recognize-Coding.html#Recognize-Coding 23:18:21 wow, you are trying to preserve emacs compatibility that way? 23:18:47 it should be pretty easy to parse the modeline 23:18:49 ok - what's the bare minimum you need in asdf as hooks that you can implement in an extension? 23:18:55 "the first non-blank line in a file" 23:19:25 I'm not sure it's a feature to move too much complexity in asdf. 23:19:36 Then again, I'm not sure -- at the very least, a debate on #lisp is healthy 23:20:23 I tend to agree that a modern default should be utf8. 23:20:28 why implement this as an extension ? the code will be pretty short 23:20:35 ok 23:21:02 if you can keep at least the functionality in functions that are not married to the asdf object model, that's better 23:21:09 then the code can be reused by e.g. xcvb. 23:21:12 just find the first non-blank line, find the text between two "-*-", split by #\; and look for a "coding:" 23:21:23 ok 23:21:46 that's not the algorithm used by emacs. 23:21:48 seems like it should be set per module/file, not acrosst he whole system 23:21:56 Indeed. 23:22:00 fe[nl]ix: ^5. That'd been bothering me for a while (: 23:22:04 (and slime, etc., should it ever accept a dependency on asdf) 23:22:05 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:20 pjb: what is the algorithm ? 23:22:23 tensorpudding__ [~michael@99.56.172.46] has joined #lisp 23:23:02 fe[nl]ix, if you have a branch that I can pull from, that's great. 23:23:12 See https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blobs/master/tools/make-depends.lisp 23:23:17 Fare: I'll send you an email when I'm finished 23:23:22 excellent 23:23:39 -*- are looked on the first two lines. Local Variables: / End: are looked in the last 512 bytes. 23:23:44 fe[nl]ix: can you try without the second patch, just in case? 23:24:09 actually, without the first. The second is obviously right. 23:25:03 you mean the short one in annotation #2 ? 23:25:43 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.148.198.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:25:46 yes. The one that patches dfun.lisp 23:26:11 ok, building 23:26:21 thanks a lot! 23:30:16 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 23:32:26 -!- asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879AE1.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:34:45 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-139-121.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:34:46 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-148-31.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:25 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:38:14 KDr2 [~kdr2@123.120.153.17] has joined #lisp 23:43:34 mgodshall [~quassel@pool-108-36-207-226.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:42 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:44:29 pkhuong: Failure: threads.pure.lisp / (WAIT-ON-SEMAPHORE TIMEOUT MANY-THREADS) 23:45:36 So I think I stumbled on a pretty nice way to "visually" represent inter-file dependencies in .asd files: https://github.com/Hexstream/hevent/blob/b2a5de8b940ed8517ff3226dae8bd7871837769f/hevent.asd (nevermind that I'll reorganize this old project from multiple packages and files into 1 or 2 packages and 3 files...) 23:45:36 -!- Dodek [am291698@duch.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:46:07 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.116.191] has joined #lisp 23:46:38 -!- agumonkey [agumonkey@143.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:47:15 is there a way to define a method on every slot of a class? one that works for all? 23:47:35 Farzad: methods aren't really related to slots. 23:47:41 Farzad: they are related to generic functions. 23:47:41 fe[nl]ix: eh, wtf? Is that a new failure as well? If you ignore that, how does iolib fare? 23:47:55 setf i mean sry 23:48:02 freiksenet: same deal 23:48:31 pkhuong: deadlock: http://common-lisp.net/~sionescu/snooper2.log 23:49:08 it would seem that both patches are necessary 23:49:34 I'll test again later, but now I must go to sleep 23:49:35 -!- mensch [~mensch@c-24-128-27-99.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:50:05 Xach: is it possible? 23:50:18 fe[nl]ix: it's ok. I'll get someone else to check the logic, but I expect it'll go in soonish. 23:51:05 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@123.120.153.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:51:10 Farzad: The question is not really well-defined, due to a bad mental model you have, which Xach tried to help you rectify... 23:51:57 KognizantKog [~Kognizant@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 23:51:59 Hexstream: ok, u mean i can do :after setf? 23:52:39 ... Do I? Maybe you should show some code, so that we may help you more effectively. 23:52:59 me? 23:53:18 Farzad: Who else would I be talking to? 23:53:58 the problem is that i have a class that i need to have a hook on every access to its slots so i can do some general thing, how do i do that? 23:54:13 Farzad: Oh. The MOP can do that. 23:55:00 Hexstream: i'm gonna have to read the art of the meta object protocol? 23:55:06 Look into SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS. It's not part of the standard, but part of the MOP, which is a widely implemented extension. Use closer-mop for portability. 23:55:26 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:55:43 Hexstream: thanks 23:55:51 Farzad: Well, not a bad idea to do that eventually, but I'd wait until you have some CL experience under your belt before you read it to enjoy it more... 23:56:56 Hexstream: is there a free version of it around? like pcl? 23:57:14 Hello 23:57:40 Farzad: Chapters 5 and 6 are available online. That specifies the MOP. But reading the previous chapters, which are not available online, is recommended for good understanding. 23:58:05 Hexstream: oh and will that slot-value-using-class work for the subclasses too? 23:58:07 http://www.alu.org/mop/index.html is the available-online part. 23:58:32 It will work for classes that use your own custom metaclass... 23:59:09 Hexstream: ok time to read :) thanks for the help! 23:59:18 francogrex [~francogre@109.130.139.138] has joined #lisp 23:59:22 Farzad: np. Have fun! 23:59:23 -!- zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #lisp