00:00:45 Karmaon [~john@gateway/tor-sasl/karmaon] has joined #lisp 00:03:44 fjl [~fjl@178-25-98-61-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:04:24 I'm looking for documentation on metaclasses, does anybody care to help me out? 00:04:50 amop? 00:04:51 fjl: there you go: http://alu.org/mop/index.html 00:05:08 thanks 00:05:35 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA229C8.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:05:53 Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-49-137.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 00:05:56 the links on cliki are broken, I'll change them to point to alu.org 00:06:14 fjl: the art of the metaobject protocol is a good book for it, as Ralith said. it can also be interesting to check p-cos's old blog posts and links. 00:06:26 that is to say, i found some interesting links in there 00:06:36 -!- Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-49-137.public.utexas.edu] has left #lisp 00:06:41 it may help if you explain what you're trying to model 00:07:35 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:07:54 zfx [~zfx@host109-156-19-112.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:15 -!- zfx [~zfx@host109-156-19-112.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:08:15 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 00:08:47 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:21 the link above is two chapters from AMOP which specify the meta-object protocol of CL 00:09:22 madnificent: i don't have a copy of AMOP handy (but our library has one) 00:09:28 they're self-contained 00:09:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:09:59 stassats: i didn't find it extremely clear without reading AMOP, but i think it is self-contained, yes. 00:11:18 i learned MOP from it (because i don't have AMOP) 00:11:30 actually, i have a pirated PDF, but i'm too lazy to read the whole thing 00:12:10 ok, i've updated the links. thanks for your help. 00:12:12 stassats: now that i look at it again. i think i tried to read it from the webpage, reflowed for the ebook reader. that probably messed up the format, making it much less fun to read. that probably didn't help me much. 00:12:14 fjl: nice library 00:14:00 Ralith: definitely, they even have "On Lisp" 00:14:45 AMOP is fairly famous even among non-lispers 00:14:59 -!- Inode [~nothing@time.uk.chromedpork.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:16:36 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-117-44.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 00:18:04 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 00:18:28 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:23:03 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.109] has joined #lisp 00:27:59 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: [ Close the World, Open the nExt ]] 00:28:00 -!- kai_ [~kai@f052098223.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28:29 -!- ngz [~user@69.205.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:30:11 [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 00:33:17 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:55 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:36:37 -!- prip [~foo@host137-9-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:37:00 ltaoist [~mo@183.20.101.241] has joined #lisp 00:37:53 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:23 ApeShot [~user@rrcs-24-106-184-123.se.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:38:48 Hi - I have a question about symbols, packages and the reader. 00:39:17 I am the author of shadchen, https://github.com/VincentToups/shadchen 00:39:37 you can ask questions without abstracts 00:39:40 It is a pattern matching library which defines a variety of 'built in' patterns 00:39:45 If economists were right I would have paid $5 to bind a printout of PCL from its website instead of paying full price for the book. 00:39:53 And lets the users define their own patterns 00:40:02 It uses the pattern definition facility to define a few of its own 00:40:29 It is kind of a complicated question 00:40:35 I think, anyway 00:40:38 *stassats* waits until symbols come on stage 00:40:41 Aethaeryn: the money you spend on things doesn't only result in you receiving the product, it also involves influencing the market. 00:41:21 Never mind 00:41:33 I should just read the hyperspec carefully 00:41:40 that never hurts 00:41:45 <> 00:41:59 but reading the hyperspec is a good thing 00:42:07 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:11 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:42:31 And, in fact, I just thought about it all carefully and now I think I know the answer 00:42:33 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 00:42:49 So thanks! 00:42:50 hi everyone. 00:43:05 hey dto! 00:43:11 hi dto 00:43:26 Snaffu [~Snaffu@oh-69-34-16-39.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:40 :) 00:43:52 i'm going to try to have a productive hacking session tonight 00:44:18 dto: upon what do you hack 00:45:49 ApeShot: a project called Blocky, a game engine and (hopefully) visual multimedia programming system in common lisp 00:45:59 Oh hey, you are the blocky dude 00:45:59 waterpie [~waterpie@ppp-94-64-180-63.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 00:46:04 ha 00:46:07 We talked about my blog posts about monads once 00:46:10 oh! 00:46:14 are you using a different nick ? 00:46:16 Blocky rocks 00:46:17 oh it wasn't on irc. 00:46:24 It was in the comments to the blog 00:46:35 ApeShot: ---> check out #blocky as well, we can avoid making noise in here. 00:46:45 I am still into using lisp for game development but I got a job programming in CL and now I'm burnt out all the time 00:46:55 oh, 00:47:06 is it crunch time or is the place always like that 00:47:07 dto: no matter if you take the noize of #blocky to #lispgames i think 00:47:13 dto: crunch time 00:47:17 madnificent: ok 00:47:17 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:47:20 sty [~quassel@dsl-67-212-26-15.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:30 dto: plus I still have my job as a scientist 00:47:35 dto: it is exhausting 00:48:40 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 00:49:00 ApeShot: come to #lispgames :) 00:49:55 prip [~foo@host178-126-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:50:54 brb 00:52:17 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:53:11 ah nothing like killing your interest in a platform as having to hack on it for a living 00:53:34 production/legacy code always is such a startling mess comparing to any opensource/hobby stuff 00:54:20 maxm-: you're so right 00:54:21 -!- Froward [~PANZERKON@206.231.99.110] has quit [Quit: even in laughter, the heart of Snorlax is sorrowful. and the end of that mirth is heaviness.] 00:54:26 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:56:59 opensource is often a mess too 00:57:18 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-117-44.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:11 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 00:58:36 yeah but it usually doesn't kill your interest in whatever language you use 00:59:38 i absolutely loved Erlang when i started using it, now i hack Erlang code all day at the office and it really sucks sometimes 01:00:03 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: [ Close the World, Open the nExt ]] 01:00:18 i think that's more disillusionment when what looks good in the tutorial meets real life 01:01:55 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:01:55 Anyone know what emacs face is used for the bar at the top of the slime-repl buffer, with the port and pid in it? 01:02:19 sellout: emacs knows. 01:02:26 sellout: M-x customize-face RET 01:02:28 pjb: But I can't get it to tell me! 01:02:41 M-x face-at-point RET 01:02:44 pjb: I can't get the point onto that area. 01:02:45 it doesn't use a face 01:03:08 stassats`: No? 01:03:23 oGMo: nah, i wouldn't say that. it took 2 years of daily usage to make it suck 01:04:24 stassats`: Where does it come from? 01:04:34 oGMo: and it's still nice for a lot of things i do at work 01:04:44 sellout: it's a header-line 01:04:49 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05:25 Is there a way to exit gracefully from iolib:event-dispatch? 01:05:37 sellout: slime just sets header-line-format, and header-line uses `header-line' face 01:05:39 stassats`: Then it uses the header-line face. 01:05:40 Thanks. 01:06:47 ah. exit-event-loop. Heh. 01:07:08 Ansik [~user@124.116.208.29] has joined #lisp 01:09:10 -!- Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:09:27 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-186.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:10:43 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-186.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:12:32 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:14 stassats`: sorry if i was a douche yesterday. bad mood. 01:14:48 you were just misinformed 01:15:04 no there may have been general douchiness 01:15:08 anyway. 01:15:16 To be frank, I've never been a huge CL fan anyway - I prefer Scheme. Working with CL has made me like it more, but I still sort of think the language is too big and somewhat antiquated. 01:15:35 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:15:40 some say CL is too small 01:15:45 Ape: Understandable. 01:15:58 Antiquated in what ways? 01:16:16 Filesystem stuff is weird, the package design is weird (see Racket for a much more elegant system) 01:16:24 ghoti-: has no built-in emoticon support in FORMAT 01:16:26 stassats`: based on what i know of mop, i could probably replace my object implementation with CLOS in a matter of hours. i'm not certain i'll get a performance boost though 01:16:56 stassats`: lol 01:16:57 I think CLOS is actually somewhat ill considered in its details 01:17:09 ApeShot: shhhh :) 01:17:24 I prefer multiple dispatch object systems as much as the next guy 01:17:25 stassats`: Very nice. :D 01:17:45 But CLOS is so free form that code becomes very idiomatic across programmers 01:17:50 Ape: Actually, I don't think that racket's package system is comparable to CL's. 01:18:01 That might be a good thing 01:18:03 the only thing ive ever found a bone to pick with about CL, is the filenames stuff. but that's literally all. i love everything else 01:18:09 I find it easy to work with Racket's modules 01:18:19 It is a pain to work with CL's 01:18:25 Quicklisp helps _tremendously_ 01:18:28 But still 01:18:34 Ape: That's because CL effectively has a fixed set of modules. 01:18:47 Ape: Packages handle namespaces, instead. 01:18:54 palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:58 I mean packages 01:19:07 Sorry for the inexactness of my language 01:19:12 Yeah, but racket packages are modules, iirc. 01:19:15 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:19:27 ApeShot: if you're trying to do rackety things with CL packages, of course it's a pain, just don't do that 01:19:33 [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 01:19:34 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:19:36 Well, as a means of segregating code, they are nicer, to me 01:19:49 -!- waterpie [~waterpie@ppp-94-64-180-63.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:19:50 -!- kruhft [~user@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:20:02 Ape: The important thing about packages (as namespaces), imho, is to solve the problem of separate authorship. 01:20:04 Which means that I don't have to become an expert on the module system in Racket to use it effectively, whereas in CL I must know significantly more about packages 01:20:21 ApeShot: and packages in CL are really simple 01:20:39 Ape: I agree that CL packages are not particularly good at doing what modules do well. 01:20:46 For instance, I came in today because of a weird behavior in the way symbols are interned in macro bodies across package boundaries 01:21:08 -!- prip [~foo@host178-126-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:21:23 That is how someone deeply confused about packages might phrase it. 01:21:24 -!- ltaoist [~mo@183.20.101.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:21:45 Xach: what does it say that a person _can be_ deeply confused about them 01:21:53 Ape: If you understand a package as being essentially a coherent unit of symbol authorship, it might make more sense. 01:21:56 hi xach. 01:22:13 ApeShot: that a person is easily confused? 01:22:20 stassats`: herp dep 01:22:33 hi dto 01:22:40 Anyway, this is all not particularly important 01:22:49 Programming Languages aren't about approaching an ideal 01:22:52 They are about getting things done 01:22:55 CL lets you get things done 01:22:58 I do things with it 01:23:25 Frankly, if packages were renamed 'authors', it would probably be less confusing to anyone. 01:24:06 So what would you do for modules, in that case, given that authorship isn't generally considered a critical feature for a language 01:24:10 and modules are 01:24:21 I mean who cares if it lets you delineate authorship well? 01:24:28 and scheme doesn't have either! 01:24:34 Scheme doesn't, sure 01:24:42 Racket has _great_ modules 01:25:05 -!- sepuku [~sepuku@83.212.45.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:26:57 -!- Snaffu [~Snaffu@oh-69-34-16-39.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:27:20 and i don't think it's simple 01:29:00 can someone explain to me the difference between CL macros, schemes hygenic macros and explicit-renaming macros 01:29:05 and their applications/use cases 01:31:01 CL macros just transform the code, and hygienic macros ensure that there's no variable conflicts 01:31:44 kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:53 CL Macros work on lists of symbols and lists 01:31:57 Scheme macros work on syntax 01:32:17 A benefit of which is that they can automatically ensure hygeine because syntax contains information about the scope of symbols 01:32:26 CL macros works on lists of numbers too 01:32:35 Atoms, symbols, lists 01:32:37 I should have said 01:32:55 symbols are atoms too 01:33:13 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-186.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:33:22 and the term is s-expression 01:34:12 prip [~foo@host199-197-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 01:34:29 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-186.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:34:52 Automatically ensuring hygiene is not necessarily a good thing. 01:35:27 Ah, Scheme vs. CL! 01:35:48 It is if you can break it 01:35:56 They both suck, but on opposite ends of the straw. 01:36:02 it is, if i can't break it 01:36:13 I kind of prefer Scheme macros once I get used to them 01:36:20 eh, i confused myself 01:36:25 But in a way, they are like CL's packages - they take to long to get used to 01:36:26 in negations 01:36:30 maybe there should be an option to switch to hygiene 01:36:36 I usually prefer things that I get used to, too. 01:36:38 What's the problem with packages? 01:36:45 ltaoist [~mo@183.20.101.241] has joined #lisp 01:36:47 Cosman246: most scheme implementations provided cl-style macros 01:36:51 provide 01:37:38 I wish more CL's provided pattern matching macros 01:37:45 Even without hygeine 01:37:54 It is a nice way to write simple macros 01:38:00 I'm sure there are implementations 01:38:15 if they're simple, why do you need pattern-matching? 01:38:54 destructuring does a good job for simple macros 01:40:04 I'm writing notes on my ideal lisp (nothing serious yet), so... 01:40:55 yay MFTL 01:41:23 MFTL? 01:41:53 my favorite toy language 01:42:04 Pattern matching is a lot more aggressive than `destructuring-bind` 01:42:05 or lisp 01:42:06 At least it can be 01:42:30 i don't like aggressive macros, they scare me 01:43:30 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-186.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43:52 sepuku [~sepuku@83.212.45.206] has joined #lisp 01:44:05 ah 01:44:41 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-186.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:44:46 I'm writing it in spec format, so that if I ever get around to learning how to write a compiler and such, I'll have something to do 01:45:07 you don't need a compiler with lisp, you know 01:45:07 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 01:45:08 It'll probably implemented similar to the way Shen is implemented 01:45:14 so yeah, probably not 01:45:22 Once I've figured everything out, well,.... 01:45:36 see you in a hundred years! 01:45:57 or is it just 50 years left? 01:48:07 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 01:48:46 probably 5 01:49:47 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:12 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:55:24 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:58:44 ApeShot: so i dont quite get what working on the "syntax" vs working on lists of symbols actually implies though practically; nor do i understand why hygiene is important? it keeps its own lexical scope? 01:59:59 It is related to scope, yes 02:00:07 -!- brooke [~brooke@c-71-63-19-18.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:00:36 http://dorophone.blogspot.com/2011/08/survey-of-syntactic-extension_25.html 02:01:30 -!- ApeShot [~user@rrcs-24-106-184-123.se.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:03:03 |nix|` [~user@cpe-184-153-22-96.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:03:55 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:05:01 -!- |nix| [~user@cpe-184-153-22-96.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:07:51 -!- holycow [~holycow@pdpc/supporter/bronze/holycow] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:13:19 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:13:40 erm 02:13:58 commonQT neesd visual c++ on windows, this is for compile time only, right? 02:14:09 yes 02:14:28 for the compilation of the library, that is 02:15:10 :D 02:17:09 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-40-50.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:21:57 -!- sty [~quassel@dsl-67-212-26-15.acanac.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:24:14 wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has joined #lisp 02:24:45 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:59 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:25:23 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:5c0:1400:b::b793] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:30 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128057225.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:29:00 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:31:06 -!- fjl [~fjl@178-25-98-61-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:31:38 -!- vairav [~vairav@209.49.23.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:32:09 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:32:30 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:32:53 does something like ${MAIL?} return an exit value 02:33:24 that doesn't look like Common Lisp 02:33:44 whoopS!! wrong channel, sorry 02:33:50 vairav [~vairav@209.49.23.82] has joined #lisp 02:33:53 i thougth i was in #bash 02:34:17 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:34:29 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:34:40 gko [~gko@27.242.70.164] has joined #lisp 02:35:05 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:35:34 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:40:09 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:42:12 CrLF0710 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[~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:25:58 CL macros rox sox! 03:27:07 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 03:32:33 hello mon_key. 03:34:16 Jubb [~ghost@pool-72-66-102-48.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:47 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:37:46 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:50 -!- solussd [~solussd@rrcs-76-79-44-2.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: solussd] 03:40:00 cheier [~amedueces@c-98-251-147-85.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:59 dys` [~andreas@krlh-5f73690d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:04 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:43:50 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f71c6e3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:43:57 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-50-021.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 03:43:59 Harag 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chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-40-50.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:21:04 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-62-119.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:24:54 Does anyone here know the current state of SWIG support for CFFI? 15:25:02 brown````: unchanging 15:25:04 -!- brown```` is now known as reb` 15:25:21 reb`: good enough to start off a binding for C libs, though 15:27:08 Do you know which version of SWIG is best for CFFI? 15:27:23 reb`: just grab latest one, you won't notice changes 15:28:58 kpal [~kpal@194.182.142.5] has joined #lisp 15:29:19 I have 2.0.4. The C++ code I'm wrapping includes typemaps.i, since it's been wrapped already for Python. There's no evident typemaps.i file for CFFI. 15:30:06 ahh, wrapping C++ 15:30:11 that's... problematic 15:30:41 How so? No CFFI support for C++ wrapping? 15:30:48 JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 15:31:06 reb`: more like C++ is fscking annoying for SWIG 15:31:17 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:31:32 Well of course ... Looks like I need to do some manual reading. Sigh. 15:31:46 hippo [~kp@catv-80-99-123-177.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:31:54 Thanks! 15:32:25 you might have to create your own equivalent of typemaps.i 15:32:25 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:32:40 gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 15:33:12 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@216.99.52.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:36:22 -!- kpal [~kpal@194.182.142.5] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:37:35 Yes ... the cffi SWIG config contains support for many type mappings, but not for some that my C++ code is using. 15:41:45 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:42:18 -!- Patterngazer_ [~Patternga@globulon.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Quit: REALITY.SYS Corrupted: Re-boot universe? (Y/N/Q)] 15:42:45 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:43:35 rootzlevel [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 15:43:58 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 15:44:43 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:45:25 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:47:23 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:47:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:50:16 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.1/20120208060813]] 15:51:18 reb`: nested classes? 15:51:50 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 15:52:41 decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has joined #lisp 15:53:29 So far no. 15:55:27 didn't the qt bindings use something that wrapped C++? 15:55:30 Ah I believe that's the only real thing (and ternary statements as I've found out) that SWIG will have problems with 15:55:42 For C++ anyways 15:55:59 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.177.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 15:56:01 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:57:12 oGMo: a completely different approach 15:57:16 ah apparently it just uses smoke which is qt-specific 15:57:44 not Qt-specific anymore, afaik, but little documented and unclear 15:58:47 p_l: swig is annoying enough for C .. i had to manually patch it just to produce working output. convenient, but poorly-maintained. 15:59:05 for 0L it would generate #xL or similar 15:59:36 oGMo: in my case, copying the declarations to SWIG files instead of including *.h fixed some problems 15:59:40 er #oL because it thought the 0 meant octal 15:59:41 oGMo: I had a similar experience but I kind of expect it. 16:00:21 p_l: unfortunately i had far too many to deal with, and fixing the source wasn't too hard 16:01:04 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] 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ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:18:19 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:18:58 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:19:16 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 17:19:20 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:19:27 quazimodo: if your fasls load i would assume it "decompiles" quite well (: 17:19:56 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 17:21:34 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177698446.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:21:51 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.206.142] has joined #lisp 17:22:50 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 17:23:59 lispmeister [~fix@elemica.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:02 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:16 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit 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#lisp 17:37:27 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:37:55 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-26-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:15 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:40:43 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:41:04 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 17:41:32 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-117-44.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:27 how so? 17:43:28 quazimodo: use disassemble 17:43:29 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:44:22 quazimodo: if my "decompile" you mean "revert into almost-original source code form" then the answer is "not" 17:44:43 it would be easier with clisp. Try disassemble on clisp and compare. 17:45:13 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:45:27 pjb: even with clisp, the macro expansions will be invisible in the binary and make the 'decompiled' program look rather different than the original source form. 17:45:54 pjb: i do agree that in theory, the process could be reverted. in practict, it is harder in common lisp than in other languages due to macros. 17:46:11 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 17:46:38 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:47:10 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:47:17 quazimodo: are you concerned about theft? 17:48:50 sigi-ntb [~sigi@host-85-27-110-224.brutele.be] has joined #lisp 17:49:36 Xach: not concerned, curious tho :D 17:50:03 splittist [~splittist@74-104.198-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:50:07 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:50:08 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:50:10 step 1, making something worth stealing, is way harder than step 2, protecting it 17:50:28 morning 17:50:31 sure 17:50:37 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:50:48 -!- Quadresce is now known as Qworkescence 17:51:07 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:12 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 17:51:43 quazimodo: outside of rigid bytecode systems (where language is heavily related to internal bytecode), like JVM w/ Java (Dalvik too), .NET with C# (or VB.NET, I guess), it's usually quite hard to get back to code 17:51:58 Xach: here is an amazing riff for your correct answer http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=UhQKol7PFzA#t=320s 17:52:52 p_l: cool 17:53:07 quazimodo: and some code just fucks with you 17:53:10 -!- icrazyhack [horieyui@115.173.218.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:53:11 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:53:14 like snap4 17:53:41 hrm cool 17:53:42 p_l: it's hard to get back to the original code, or close to it. But it's not hard to get back to some more or less usable source code. 17:53:56 -!- lispmeister [~fix@elemica.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 17:54:06 icrazyhack [horieyui@115.173.218.132] has joined #lisp 17:54:21 There are tools to do that. 17:54:25 I tried disassembling snap4, got unreadable mess. Original VLM2 for Alpha was easier, though possibly mind-bending to someone used to certain languages 17:54:30 true 17:55:13 I was taking the case "compilable code that the original developer would recognize" 17:55:39 hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:12 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 17:58:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.168.227] has joined #lisp 17:58:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.168.227] has quit [Changing host] 17:58:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:58:37 i emailed the guy whos listed as the maintainer for cello, ill see what he says about its usefulness/development etc 18:00:39 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:01:14 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 18:02:36 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-117-44.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 18:04:15 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 18:04:15 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:06:19 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has joined #lisp 18:07:01 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.65.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:08:24 zophy [~zophy@host-5-150-220-24.midco.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:51 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:10:39 what's his name 18:11:40 why don't you just take the project and make it your own? 18:14:19 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14:43 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 18:15:10 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: home!] 18:21:41 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@67-0-105-114.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:22:49 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:23 quazimodo: Is that Kenny? 18:24:59 fjl [~fjl@178-25-98-61-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:25:59 -!- Cosman246 [~user@D-173-250-158-169.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:27:21 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:33:32 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:33:45 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:33:47 -!- nepnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:37:20 -!- fjl [~fjl@178-25-98-61-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:38:23 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-249.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:40:07 *Xach* starts off with a fresh system with no extra libraries installed, waits to see how many quicklisp projects fail 18:40:44 Joreji [~thomas@64-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:41:09 Xach: are you minded to dress as a medieval Japanese person this year? That seems to be the theme of ILC2012. 18:41:27 fuun 18:42:06 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.125.53] has joined #lisp 18:42:41 nope 18:43:29 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:29 splittist: what/who gave you that impression ? 18:45:31 too much of a financial & temporal disruption 18:46:29 splittist: didier verna ? 18:46:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:47:00 if I somehow get the funding, I wouldn't mind showing up in traditional garb :D 18:51:48 *sykopomp* reconsiders the wisdom of going to ILC2012 to hang out with a bunch of embarrassing gaijin. 18:52:28 lol 18:52:54 "uhh, I came here looking for the conference on speech impediments. Wrong place I guess. See ya." 18:52:55 -!- Guest75069 [~root@li129-64.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:53:18 -!- sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 18:53:40 -!- am0c_ [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:54:18 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 18:54:19 -!- hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: hydo] 18:55:48 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 18:56:20 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 18:57:55 -!- mdh [~user@cpe-98-155-81-158.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:59:02 superjudge_ [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:00:43 Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:35 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:01:51 superjudge 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[~user@49.49.193.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:16:39 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-184-069.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:10 -!- Eyes|Infinite [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:18:00 Joreji [~thomas@64-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:18:38 waterpie [~waterpie@ppp-94-64-187-179.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:21:02 Eyes|Infinite [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 19:21:25 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:17 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:22:48 fe[nl]ix: I'm making fun of the announcement, which implies that the conference is made up of tutorials, speakers, a technical session, tours of Jidai-Matsuri, and participating in the parade dressed in historical costume. 19:23:24 stickycake [~stickycak@64.17.247.66] has joined #lisp 19:23:26 RomyRomy [~stickycak@64.17.247.66] has joined #lisp 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has joined #lisp 19:54:24 does nikodemus still come around? 19:55:26 NickServ says he was last seen Feb 4 19:55:39 -!- decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:56:42 superjudge_ [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:57:05 hefner: yeah 19:57:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:57:25 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-244-50-48.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 19:59:02 decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has joined #lisp 20:00:17 Harag [~phil@dsl-244-50-48.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:00:18 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:00:18 -!- superjudge_ is now known as superjudge 20:00:48 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:01:30 -!- nepnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:05:14 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-carl-201-141.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined 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21:54:58 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-carl-201-141.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 21:55:12 -!- asvil` [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:58:11 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-20-192.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:20 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 21:58:32 ravster [~user@184.175.28.107] has joined #lisp 21:58:36 Hello all 21:58:40 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:58:44 -!- sigi-ntb [~sigi@host-85-27-110-224.brutele.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:58:58 HHello 21:59:02 hi 21:59:08 Bah. New IRC client. Do not like. 21:59:22 (Waiting for Xcode to download so I can build Emacs.) 21:59:57 gigamonkey: why do you need to build it? 22:00:05 hes an applehead 22:00:15 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:16 I'm too lazy for that; I just get it from http://emacsformacosx.com/ 22:00:17 Because that's how I roll. Though good point, I probably don't need to do that. 22:00:27 gigamonkey: and then, there is the pressing question: will etsy become a lisp shop now? 22:00:27 rme: is that the plain GNU emacs. 22:00:35 H4ns: unlikely. 22:01:32 gigamonkey: I'm not sure what you mean. It works with the Mac's window system. 22:01:40 *H4ns* takes the opportunity to download that emacs as the 23.2 he has crashes too often 22:01:43 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:02:01 I don't think you need to download gigabytes of xcode these days just to compile stuff, there's supposed to be a relatively tiny package with gcc / tools / system headers / etc 22:02:04 rme: there's that Aquamacs thing that dorks around with key bindings to make them more mac like or something. I don't want that. 22:02:08 gigamonkey: I'm pretty sure that's the version I use, and it's plan gnu emacs; no aquamacs madness. 22:02:48 The link I mentioned is not Aquamacs. 22:02:58 rme: yeah, that looks like what I want. Plain Ol' Emacs. 22:03:36 sellout told me about at some point when I was whining about Aquamacs 22:04:13 Any one here a hard-core enough IRC user to run one of those persistent clients that you can disconnect from and reconnect without missing anything? 22:04:26 And if so, which one? 22:04:35 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.125.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:04:51 irssi in a screen session 22:05:13 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-20-192.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:29 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-189945.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:38 jsnell: 130odd megs, isn't it? And people complain about SBCL core sizes. 22:05:58 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.206.142] has joined #lisp 22:06:23 splittist: like I said, relatively tiny :-) 22:06:34 weechat in a tmux section. 22:07:09 (oh meh) 22:08:52 -!- dnjaramba_ [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:09:45 -!- naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:09:49 sykopomp: how's that better than irssi? 22:09:58 dnjaramba_ [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 22:10:29 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.206.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:10:53 gigamonkey: erc on multi-tty emacs 22:11:02 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:11:19 access from anywhere, ie at home from laptop via X session, or from client site via ssh etc 22:11:48 H4ns: I haven't used irssi, and all my friends recommended weechat. I enjoy weechat a lot. It has a little package manager for plugins sane defaults, and is just generally easy to manage. 22:12:16 solussd [~solussd@user-0cdvten.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:31 sykopomp: ok, thanks! 22:12:49 -!- sepuku [~sepuku@83.212.45.206] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:13:21 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:13:59 naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has joined #lisp 22:14:27 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177698446.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:17:37 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 22:18:30 -!- solussd [~solussd@user-0cdvten.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: solussd] 22:18:33 sigi-ntb [~sigi@host-85-27-110-224.brutele.be] has joined #lisp 22:20:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:21:35 -!- sipo [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:22:31 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:22:45 So does anyone actually use CLFSWM? It sounds interesting but I couldn't get it to work. 22:27:44 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:28:12 docAvid: i fetched it from quicklisp, that seems to work 22:29:26 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-carl-201-141.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:55 kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 22:29:56 That's what I did... I was trying to run it under Xephyr, think that would be a problem? 22:30:33 maxm--: how do you ensure that your emacs server doesn't crash when it has an X window open on a remote desktop and the connection closes? it seems to crash here when that happens. i run it through screen and that works just fine though. 22:30:49 hi, is the form #:|setf foo| right for exporting a setf macro 22:31:05 kenanb: only symbols are exported. 22:31:28 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.106.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:31:37 docAvid: that could be 22:32:08 kenanb: One pattern I've seen when people want to 'hide' writers is to name writers using (setf %foo). 22:32:26 (or if not hide, just point out that it's not meant to be used, really) 22:32:26 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:46 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:48 alexander lehmann uses it like i wrote in his cl raytracer tutorial, but it failed 22:32:50 docAvid: are you on a debian-based distribution? 22:32:57 that's as close to hidden as you can generally get, short of a lexical closure 22:33:08 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-238-208.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:33:10 madnificent: yes 22:33:37 docAvid: you should be able to test like so: startx /etc/X11/Xsession /usr/bin/emacs -- :1 22:33:44 so how should i export a setf function normally 22:34:13 docAvid: that should start a new x server session and give you an emacs session. load slime in that, quickload clfswm and run (clfswm:main). that should get you started 22:34:17 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-117-217.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:23 kenanb: if you export foo, setf foo is exported also 22:34:31 at least, in your terminology of exporting 22:34:33 rgc [~user@99.Red-83-43-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:37 madnificent: Thanks I'll try that 22:34:56 docAvid: good luck. you'll see an error if it doesn't work, it's handy to debug :) 22:35:06 madnificent: ah, cool, i wonder why he also exported the setf form in that weird syntax 22:35:17 kenanb: no, you can only export symbols. 22:35:20 kenanb: i don't know, but it looks really really odd to me 22:35:29 thanks pkhuong sykopomp madnificent 22:36:21 kenanb: you should think about packages as symbol containers though. they don't hide any functionality or anything, they just toy with which symbols you can safely access from outside. if you can access the symbol upon which the setf operation is defined, then you can call the setf operation too. 22:39:38 -!- ngz [~user@69.205.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:39:54 madnificent: i see, i didn't have any confusion on cl package system until i say lehmanss (defpackage #:linalg (:use :cl) (:export #:matrix #:matrix-at #:|setf matrix-at|)) form 22:40:30 i don't wonder why he wrote that, i wonder how the hell the code didn't fail in the video 22:40:43 kenanb: perhaps you can try to contact him about it. it could be something he exported with an emacs macro or something of the likes. by accident. 22:40:51 I don't think exporting #:|foo| has any meaning 22:40:55 in fact, it's a bit surprising it's not an error 22:41:22 why? 22:41:23 kenanb: well, it also exports the symbol #:|setf matrix-at|, a symbol which you probably didn't try to use. so it works perfectly fine when you export it, but it shouldn't be there. 22:41:30 you can export #:foo 22:41:34 yes, you can 22:42:04 and I can't imagine a situation wherein you would actually want to. 22:42:19 and why wouldn't it have meaning. perhaps you want to use it in the form of an inum. it all depends on the intended usage. 22:42:43 madnificent: an inum? 22:42:53 enum, enumeration, sorry 22:43:00 -!- docAvid [~user@74-94-233-157-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:43:00 madnificent: it's an uninterned symbol. 22:43:11 perhaps you were thinking of |setf matrix-at|? 22:43:21 Ralith: no, i'm not. 22:43:42 Ralith: I think we're talking about passing arguments to defpackage's :export, here. :) 22:43:51 so do I. 22:44:03 hmm, not it runs perfectly 22:44:09 the form i just wrote here 22:44:48 the error actually occurred somewhere else i guess, after slime restart it is all good 22:44:57 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:45:06 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:06 i may want to export #:monday for instance, even though i don't have functions which operate on it. because, maybe, it's used elsewhere. or perhaps i use it in a purely symbolic fashion and i don't need to have explicit references to it (as long as all users of my library use the same symbol for monday). 22:45:30 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 22:45:37 madnificent: ah, perhaps you're thinking of :|monday|? 22:46:06 er, :monday in that case 22:47:16 i can feed either :monday or #:monday to the export clause of my package... 22:47:39 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-4d0536ac.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 22:48:04 oh right, that operates on designators, not the symbols itself. 22:48:14 defpackage takes any string designator. yes. 22:48:20 *Ralith* has been doing too much haskell lately 22:48:38 but please don't write "FOO" in your :export. It messes with modern lisps. 22:48:56 who are you advising of that? :P 22:49:06 i think i'd spit out my coffee by accident when i'd see that 22:49:08 everyone 22:49:15 everyone who will ever write a lisp library. 22:49:39 heh 22:50:01 but (:export #:some #:symbols) is okay, right? 22:50:08 yes 22:50:21 yes, I was confused. 22:50:24 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:24 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: make like a tree, and get the hell out of here] 22:50:33 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-23.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:51:06 daimrod: the issue is that when you provide "FOO" to defpackage, "FOO" is used as the symbol name. In standard CL, there is no difference because #:foo and :foo are both read with symbol-name "FOO" 22:51:40 but in modern-mode lisps, "FOO" ends up exporting the symbol FOO, which will be distinct from the symbol foo. 22:51:55 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-23.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:52:13 more concisely: some lisps are case sensitive these days, which has the obvious effects on code that assumes otherwise. 22:52:23 common lisp is case sensitive. 22:52:41 ah I remember a problem with a lisp when I had to use (use-package "PACKAGE-NAME") because (use-package :PACKAGE-NAME) didn't work... 22:52:46 case-sensitive upcasing 22:53:02 sykopomp: I rate communicating the point higher than pedantry :P 22:53:22 you write it quietly, cl makes it shout 22:53:35 common loud 22:53:45 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 22:54:44 Ralith: there is nothing pedantic about sykopomp's remark. it is not "some lisps" that are case sensitive. common lisp is. it is just that some lisps and some users decide to use a non-standard readtable-case setting. 22:54:49 Ralith: in a conversation where we've been talking about #:|foo| vs #:foo, I think it's relevant to be abit more pedantic. 22:55:06 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:55:09 fair point. 22:55:18 H4ns: modern-mode is more than non-standard readtable setting, for the sake of sticking with pedantry. 22:55:27 (which is why modern-mode is necessary) 22:55:32 i'm not quite as sure whether it is good advice to tell people to support non-standard readtable-case settings, though. it can get really really messy, in particular with generated symbols. 22:56:32 my last attempt to convert the whole open source world that i've been using to modern mode failed. it cost a lot of time, and looking at it from a little distance i could not see the benefit of it. 22:57:16 H4ns: pretty much the only useful excuse I have for using modern-mode is easier interop with case-sensitive languages. 22:57:22 H4ns: I had intended to oversimplify for the sake of being comprehensible without an understanding of readtables :P 22:58:09 but even that is kind of a shaky point 22:58:15 sykopomp: well, one way is to import the casing habits of the other language into lisp, another is to map to our-prefered-naming-style 22:58:21 H4ns: today I accidentally discovered alexandria's format-symbol, which is pretty sweet (format-symbol t '#:is-~a-p 'foo) -> 'is-foo-p  which made me think that generating symbols wasn't so bad anymore. 22:58:41 even if I *could* type XMLHttpRequest in parenscript, I would still prefer to do (setf xml-http-request XMLHttpRequest) 22:58:46 sellout: uh, that is sweet indead 22:59:30 sellout: what he said. 22:59:45 i said indead! :) "indeed" of course 23:00:30 yesterday i saw yet another academic who thinks untyped is the same as dynamically typed. i am starting to give up and thing, maybe it is 23:01:22 I hear you can just buy diplomas these days and people will think you're more valuable. 23:03:39 decafbad [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has joined #lisp 23:03:41 the guy is Matt Might, obviously knows his stuff, but using untyped and dynamically typed interchangably is a big mistake. 23:03:47 I hear sykopomp, having only a film school degree, resents formal qualifications :D 23:05:12 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-124-101.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:05:34 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-20-192.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:26 kenanb: Matt Might's definition of type isn't yours. 23:07:01 pkhuong: what do you mean 23:07:04 -!- ravster [~user@184.175.28.107] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:07:27 http://matt.might.net/articles/best-programming-languages/#scheme 23:08:11 kenanb: in most of the academic world, "static type" is redundant. Types are intrinsically static; that's why type theory was invented after all (to rule out proposition like Russell's paradox). 23:08:45 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@69.199.88.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:08:49 What you're referring to is instead described with terms like [runtime] safety. 23:08:51 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-20-192.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:09:07 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-20-192.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:19 JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 23:10:25 pseibel [~user@adsl-76-254-20-192.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:32 -!- pseibel [~user@adsl-76-254-20-192.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:10:44 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-20-192.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:10:46 sykopomp: you mean certs? :P 23:13:12 Joreji [~thomas@64-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:14:58 -!- v0yager_ [~v0yager@173-8-81-129-BusName-tn.chatta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:15:07 sepuku [~sepuku@83.212.45.206] has joined #lisp 23:15:25 pkhuong: hmm, i see, so that is why he didn't edit the post despite my correction request :) 23:17:16 -!- naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:18:38 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-133.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 23:22:42 -!- splittist [~splittist@74-104.198-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:24:48 -!- eak [~user@84-72-6-37.dclient.hispeed.ch] has left #lisp 23:26:43 -!- decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:26:57 -!- decafbad is now known as decaf 23:29:08 docAvid [~user@74-94-233-157-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:33 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:35 splittist [~splittist@74-104.198-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 23:32:00 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:34:00 -!- kai_ [~kai@e177088020.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 23:35:09 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:35:49 -!- kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@xdsl-78-34-235-196.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:36:49 ltaoist [~mo@183.20.101.241] has joined #lisp 23:40:09 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 23:40:16 sellout: that may be his name 23:40:30 kennyd: are you the cello guy? 23:41:04 -!- sepuku [~sepuku@83.212.45.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:16 quazimodo: I'm thinking kenny t, not kenny d. 23:41:49 hahaha 23:42:25 *quazimodo* scratches his bottom 23:44:57 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 23:45:19 timack [~timack@hlfx57-2b-44.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 23:47:36 ewwl either way 23:47:41 i emailed him to see what'll happen :D 23:47:57 i think that cello might be part of cells project now :/ 23:48:28 -!- decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:50:33 senj [~senj@S01060026f323bcdf.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:37 -!- sigi-ntb [~sigi@host-85-27-110-224.brutele.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:54:19 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 23:54:30 -!- Ashii [~Ashii@c-0657e255.246-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:55:38 -!- Cosman246 [~user@D-173-250-188-8.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:58:55 Ashii [~Ashii@c-0657e255.246-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:58:56 -!- Ashii [~Ashii@c-0657e255.246-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit]