00:00:02 Xach: tis ok, found the answer 00:00:03 meh I'm not combative at all, calling you an idiot was uncalled for, sorry. But I'm a big believer into "practicality and results" over theoritizing, and generally I'm a of a tinkerer/engineer mindset, while your approach smells to me of academia :-) 00:02:13 Knowing what might happen on familiar implementations is definitely something valuable. But you're wrong to think this is pure "academia". If it were, I wouldn't find it terribly intersting, either. 00:02:19 yes, in theory int x, *p = x; void *foo = (void *) (p+10), then printing foo is undefined behavour.. But I'm 100% certain that you will not find a compiler that does not compile that code, or that will miscompile it into something that will crash 00:02:53 Posterdati: A long time ago, I wrote a tic-tac-toe on z80, without a computer, in hexadecimal (then I had a few minutes to try to type it into a Z80 machine and see that it didn't work, but no time to debug. Still it was nice and fun. 00:03:06 maxm--: I think Clang either already does, or will, include an error for that 00:03:14 pjb: z80 was amazing 00:03:18 anyway, I'm stopping this discussion from my side, in the we not going to change its other mind.. My position is still its "how many angels on the tip of a needle" type thing 00:03:26 pjb: z8000 is a mess :) 00:03:37 maxm--: I believe gcc does exploit that sort of thing now, and llvm should soon. 00:04:08 pkhuong: yea with aliasing and stuff, but I think its smart enough to only note dereferencing 00:05:08 italic [~hello@pool-71-127-138-218.rcmdva.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:15 maxm--: without "academia" lot of things wouldn't come out easy... Programming is strongly related to math, every program in fact is a theorem, so people like Turing, McCarty and so on gave a great impulse to programming because they have strong "academia" roots IMHO. 00:06:01 Ah ha! Porn may not be copyrightable in US law. If that's true, we could add some porn to free software to make sure its copying is not prevented :-) 00:06:16 Er ... what? 00:06:28 pjb: not prevented but perverted 00:06:33 well I fully admit my failings there.. IMHO world need both einstains and teslas 00:06:45 pjb: That seems like an extremely dubious legal interpretation. 00:07:06 http://torrentfreak.com/you-cant-copyright-porn-bittorrent-defendant-insists-120206/ 00:07:12 *p_l|backup* meanwhile notices that Heroku will do lisp hosting 00:07:20 maxm--: no, not really. We'd need more 007 to eliminate the evil oligarchs who prevent the emergence of new technology to go on selling their oil. 00:08:23 mhenderson: Indeed. An extremely dubious legal interpretation. 00:08:32 maxm--: practicality is useful in mass production contexts 00:09:02 When Richard Handl was arrested for attempting to split the atom on his stove. Careful, if you bring home some granit. You may be arrested for trafficing in radioactive materials. 00:09:20 The US is the country of the insane, not the country of the free. 00:09:22 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:38 "You're always free to leave." 00:09:49 Posterdati: "every sufficiently large program contains at least one bug". "Every sufficiently large program can be made smaller by at least one statement", so by induction any program can be reduced to a single statement which does not work 00:09:50 pjb: seems to be the whole world follows gladly the US example. 00:09:52 Well, in this case, it's Sweden. :-) 00:10:05 Frozenlock: indeed. 00:10:36 maxm--: that's quite the fallacious deduction here. 00:10:38 did you here about the british couple getting deported after the bloke twitted about being 'Off to destroy America' 00:10:41 hear* 00:10:55 Guthur: supposedly some "helpful citizen" reported them 00:10:57 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.49.60.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:11:06 pkhuong: it meant to be humorous 00:11:12 maxm--: use acl2 to prove your statement! SYNTAX ERROR IN 0... shshfhah BOOM!!! 00:11:20 p_l|backup: really, I assumed it was standard keyword monitoring 00:11:38 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.49.42.14] has joined #lisp 00:11:55 pjb: I passed the porno phase, now I'm looking for naked cute girls only 00:12:25 Guthur: afaik reality is that the cybermonitoring was mostly bust unless targeted (that is, old-style monitoring), not because of not finding anything but because of massive amounts of mainly meaningless data 00:13:42 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 00:13:52 p_l|backup: cybermonitoring??? Is it true? Then I shouldn't buy that 22 years old girl from Sweden! 00:14:37 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:14:48 p_l|backup: oh paid with paypal, obviously 00:14:55 -!- Illiux [~nol@150.212.20.176] has quit [Quit: Illiux] 00:14:59 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:15:19 it's a scam 00:15:29 p_l|backup: paypal? 00:15:43 p_l|backup: no she is blonde 00:15:49 Guthur: buying a girl from sweden and paypal both 00:15:57 its funny after you are asked when crossing borders "have you ever posted statements critical of on any online forums" 00:16:02 I assumed Posterdati was joking 00:16:32 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:16:33 Posterdati: any merchant accepting paypal for that is a scammer, methinks ;) 00:16:56 Guthur: :) 00:17:11 then you are trapped between "no" and technically perjuring myself, saying "yes but I meant it as a joke" and admitting stuff, or going "I refuse to answer questions until I talk to my lawyer" and having "we have a smartypants here, get him" reaction 00:17:31 maxm--: me? 00:17:34 p_l|backup: s/for that //; # Fixed it. 00:17:37 world is crazy :-) 00:17:41 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:12 maxm--: Not sure you can even get a lawyer in US border zones 00:18:24 you technically haven't entered the US 00:18:28 Odin-: I accept PayPal, but that's because not every system supports bank transfers, nor is getting a card processor sensible at the moment 00:18:49 *Guthur* assumes they didn't make it past immigration 00:19:07 Guthur: they probably didn't rescind that law, but at one point they made it so that any laws you might want to depend on are worth less than toilet paper 00:19:46 p_l|backup: I think that is pretty much the case 00:19:53 maxm--: or assume "critical" implies a non-parallel section of code, and that this has never applied to statements about a country online, and later if they call you on it, claim the question was vague and you answered to the best of your knowledge 00:20:24 obviously, that's how real life works. 00:20:40 obviously _any_ of this is how real life works 00:21:22 oGMo if I learned anything from watching c-span, and congress grilling fat cats, "I don't recall" is the best universal defence 00:21:22 00:21:53 maxm--: a nuke with suicide switch is better 00:22:03 http://i40.tinypic.com/ejzevb.jpg 00:22:09 this is why I love sweden 00:22:21 too bronzed 00:22:48 http://i39.tinypic.com/25gxvzs.jpg 00:22:50 Posterdati: Should we be noticing something? 00:22:55 waveman [~tim@124-168-114-219.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:23:17 I hope you're discussing editor colour schemes. 00:23:21 http://i39.tinypic.com/ng4p6r.jpg 00:24:06 Illiux [~nol@mc-wireless-pittnet-150-212-11-30.wireless.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 00:24:07 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:25:41 maxm--: yeah don't try that at a border 00:25:46 Odin-: general idea seems to be swedish girls are hot, and if any of them come closer then a meter, they spontaneously start making out 00:26:04 "are you carrying any contraband?" -> "i don't recall" won't go well 00:26:08 *shrug* 00:26:11 This conversation needs to end. 00:26:20 sure 00:26:22 Doesn't seem too different from the nightlife scene in Iceland. 00:26:23 kruhft [~user@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:27 maxm--: the result is spectacular... 00:26:42 And yes, it's ... somewhat off topic. 00:26:55 Odin-: are you from iceland? 00:27:02 Posterdati: Yes. 00:27:12 to get back on track - has anyone considered running Lisp on heroku.com? 00:27:31 Odin-: cool place too :) 00:27:47 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128175100.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:27:57 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 00:28:19 p_l|backup: They do CL? 00:28:41 Odin-: I like northern girls 00:28:47 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.13.76] has joined #lisp 00:28:55 Odin-: there's now a way to load basically anything 00:29:01 my last offtopic post before xach wakes up, but its pretty funny how conversation went from lisp being newb unfriendly, to teaching programming, to internet monitoring and end up up with posting jailbait :-) 00:29:19 maxm--: if that's jailbait, I'm father time. 00:29:22 It's not funny. You guys are killing the SnR here. 00:29:42 austinh: I shot the sheriff! 00:30:07 Beware of logs! :-) 00:30:37 Odin-: is CL = Cun**Ling**????? 00:30:57 Posterdati: ... 00:30:58 pjb: Beware of Dogs 00:31:01 O_o 00:31:54 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.26.130.175.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 00:34:16 Odin-: anyway, on Heroku you can now load binaries from S3, with a 'buildpack' that sets the environment 00:34:47 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.49.42.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:35:09 -!- ddp [~ddp@otwbsc02.oceanic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:35:44 bye people 00:37:24 -!- Illiux [~nol@mc-wireless-pittnet-150-212-11-30.wireless.pitt.edu] has quit [Quit: Illiux] 00:39:18 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 00:42:08 -!- wildnux_ [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:42:16 Illiux [~illiux@mobile-166-147-099-237.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:17 What's a good cl Irc lib? I tried cl-irc and immediately found myself fixing bugs in it. 00:43:41 This is good. Send the patches back to the maintainer. 00:44:39 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:45:53 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@209.131.196.174] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 00:48:35 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:48:40 solussd [~solussd@user-0cdvten.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:48:52 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 00:53:12 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.49.49.44] has joined #lisp 00:53:19 lispyone [~lispyone@24.144.8.66] has joined #lisp 00:53:45 If I concatenate two arrays of type 'bit, the result doesn't seem to be of type 'bit. Why/how can I change this? 00:54:12 ex: (concatenate 'array #*000 #*000) 00:54:20 -->#(0 0 0 0 0 0) 00:54:39 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:55:00 Frozenlock: this are not arrays. You cannot concatenate arrays, only sequences! 00:55:01 Frozenlock: That's because you're asking for the return type with that 'array. 00:56:12 Frozenlock: this is not C! 00:56:19 Hm. 00:56:46 In C they only have vectors, so they call them array to give themselves some importance. 00:56:46 try 'simple-bit-vector instead of array 00:57:01 hypercube32 [~hypercube@246.111.188.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:57:04 'array shouldn't work in that position. 00:57:25 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:58:14 setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:58:25 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:59:32 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:59:46 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:48 Frozenlock: Which implementation doesn't barf on that? :) 01:00:32 clis doesn't seem to complain. 01:01:12 clisp 01:01:16 CCL, SBCL and ECL all do... 01:01:23 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:01:38 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:01 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:02:23 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:12 -!- carlo_au [~carlo@ppp59-167-0-161.lns1.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:03:12 'simple-bit-vector works flawlessly, thanks! 01:03:24 Now I'll meditate on the difference :) 01:03:38 Frozenlock: Also, instead of 'array you should use 'vector. 01:03:50 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:03:54 bit-vector works too. Why should you prefer simple-bit-vector? 01:04:09 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:22 array is _not_ a subtype of sequence... 01:04:33 just a first thing that come to my head, yes 'bit-vector should work too 01:04:39 -!- Illiux [~illiux@mobile-166-147-099-237.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 01:07:40 -!- notzmv [~zmv@186.204.150.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:07:43 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:08:03 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:11 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:10:31 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:51 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:13 -!- vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-150-095.dsl.sil.at] has quit [Quit: vervic] 01:14:21 -!- phao [phao@187.91.243.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:15:15 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:15:36 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:16:58 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 01:18:09 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:25:13 -!- italic [~hello@pool-71-127-138-218.rcmdva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:25:36 ApeShot [~user@cpe-076-182-098-158.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:26:33 So what exactly is the behavior of reader macros like #+sbcl or #+allegro - my impression is that the next expression is only read if the implementation is the mentioned on. 01:26:35 Is that right? 01:27:30 That's wrong. 01:27:44 Where is this documented? It is pretty hard to google for. 01:27:59 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 01:28:20 kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:33 google for common lisp sharp plus 01:28:44 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:31:08 pjb: that returns a single result which is not particularly informative, when googled in quotes 01:31:27 I didn't say google for "common lisp sharp plus". 01:31:35 fair enough 01:31:43 And i was wrong anyway 01:31:48 it does contain the information 01:32:47 Thanks 01:32:57 pjb: also thanks for those memos about calling slime from emacs 01:33:06 Sure. 01:33:06 pjb: just got them, and they will be extremely useful 01:33:30 And you can call emacs from CL too, to implement the user interface ;-) 01:33:46 -!- vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtechnology.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:35:36 ltaoist [~mo@183.20.110.3] has joined #lisp 01:37:09 Is there a way to do something like "on every system _except_ allegro" 01:37:19 ? 01:37:26 #-allegro 01:37:30 -!- billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:37:35 Most excellent 01:38:03 Have you followed the links? http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/24_aba.htm 01:38:14 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483AE19.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:39:02 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 01:39:22 Demosthenes [~demo@me02c36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:52 Have now. 01:41:21 -!- shaunxcode [~chatzilla@c-98-202-35-176.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:43:26 vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtech.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:47:14 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:48:41 -!- solussd [~solussd@user-0cdvten.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: solussd] 01:53:15 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-169-14-16.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:53:29 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:54:50 -!- kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:55:42 kanru` [~user@118.163.10.190] has joined #lisp 01:56:42 -!- Buglouse [~buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:57:51 -!- vairav [~vairav@209.49.23.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:58:21 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:59:01 saint_cypher [~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has joined #lisp 02:00:23 Buglouse [~buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:06:39 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 02:18:42 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:51 paul0 [~paul0@189.26.130.175.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 02:23:01 shaunxcode [~chatzilla@98.202.35.176] has joined #lisp 02:25:52 gko [~gko@27.246.34.106] has joined #lisp 02:26:08 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:14 -!- ApeShot [~user@cpe-076-182-098-158.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:39:27 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:41:27 -!- shaunxcode [~chatzilla@98.202.35.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:44:08 -!- christopher_ [~christoph@192.188.108.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:44:45 vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:08 Pomo [~Pomo@192.188.108.71] has joined #lisp 02:45:21 -!- Pomo [~Pomo@192.188.108.71] has quit [Client Quit] 02:45:46 Pomo [~Pomo@192.188.108.71] has joined #lisp 02:48:56 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 02:49:03 Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 02:52:09 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:35 -!- ysph [~user@adsl-065-013-204-170.sip.mgm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:59:46 solussd [~solussd@user-0cdvten.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:00 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:04:41 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:05:27 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:23 -!- cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:08:16 -!- Neronus [christian@heraklit.ayous.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:08:36 Jubb [~ghost@pool-72-66-102-48.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:43 Neronus [christian@heraklit.ayous.org] has joined #lisp 03:09:20 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:09:47 cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 03:13:18 -!- h0x00 [~Ivoc@91.207.42.52] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 03:13:21 -!- mlm_ [~mlm@pool-96-255-227-156.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:18:23 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:18:25 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.49.49.44] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 03:25:15 Whoa, hefner is on slashdot! Congrats, hefner! 03:26:01 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:27 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:35 whoa, crazy 03:29:07 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:30:52 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ugwbaeofsbmqbpki] has joined #lisp 03:31:41 -!- vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:40:27 -!- solussd [~solussd@user-0cdvten.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: solussd] 03:41:20 Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:27 theBlack1ragon [~dragon@213.219.158.68.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:00 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 03:43:35 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:43:50 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:43:51 vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:55 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.158.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:44:55 -!- theBlack1ragon is now known as theBlackDragon 03:48:14 congrats! 03:48:45 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@64.9.146.153] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:48:57 thanks. 03:51:01 totzeit [~kirkwood@64.9.146.153] has joined #lisp 03:52:52 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-27-188.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:57:07 kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-238-225.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 03:58:28 shaunxcode [~chatzilla@c-98-202-35-176.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:45 -!- Buglouse [~buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:14:24 Buglouse [~buglouse@65.28.172.255] has joined #lisp 04:17:26 teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has joined #lisp 04:17:54 Harag [~phil@dsl-146-202-89.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 04:17:57 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:26:47 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 04:30:31 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.103] has joined #lisp 04:32:41 not CL (Scheme) but of interest to Lisperati, Dan Friedman's sweet presentation @ Clojure/conj on relational interpreters written in miniKanren, and CLP(FD) via cKanren, http://blip.tv/clojure/dan-friedman-and-william-byrd-minikanren-5936333 04:34:08 kleppari_ [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 04:35:00 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:36:19 billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has joined #lisp 04:37:11 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 04:39:01 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:40:15 frx [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has joined #lisp 04:43:59 -!- frx [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Quit: quit] 04:44:27 frx [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has joined #lisp 04:45:05 rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has joined #lisp 04:51:01 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:55:19 I just read about AARON the robot that paints (apparently done with allegro cl), but what I want to know is did the dewd use LISP from the beginning of the 40 year project? 04:55:20 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.103] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:57:39 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:58:24 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.26.130.175.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 05:00:13 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-72-66-102-48.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:04:09 phao [phao@177.115.62.98] has joined #lisp 05:05:45 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1176449092.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:05:59 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:06:04 I am typing (compile-file "t.lisp" :system-p t) at my ECL repl... the manual says that this should generate a .o file, but it doesn't... any clue why? ( I am on windows here ) 05:06:11 following this http://ecls.sourceforge.net/new-manual/ch24s06.html 05:06:30 the program is run actually, after I type this, and the name of the generated fasl is given 05:07:22 -!- gko [~gko@27.246.34.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:07:31 -!- teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:15:44 -!- vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtech.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:16:07 -!- Buglouse [~buglouse@65.28.172.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:20:17 Have a gcc installed? 05:23:38 no 05:23:40 ops, yes. 05:24:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-141.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:25:17 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 05:25:36 I am on windows btw 05:25:47 Buglouse [~buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:26:56 dimilar [~user@124.160.56.108] has joined #lisp 05:27:09 sunmix [~user@223.207.23.221] has joined #lisp 05:28:03 And these guides are telling me to call c:build-program, but my ecl tells me that this function doesn't exist 05:29:38 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:30:23 it certainly used to.. 05:30:51 hefner, do you have ecl in there? 05:31:19 my ECLs are all quite old, I'm not going to update them right now, but I definitely see "c:build-program" in my old application build script 05:31:46 isn't there an option to only load the compiler in optionally? 05:31:57 oh, yeah. try (require 'cmp), perhaps 05:33:22 =) 05:33:23 worked 05:34:54 -!- frx [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (EOF)] 05:35:06 -!- dimilar [~user@124.160.56.108] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:35:16 has anyone ported franz's ntservice.cl to CFFI? I want to create a Windows service using Clozure CL. 05:36:21 dimilar [~user@124.160.56.108] has joined #lisp 05:37:15 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 05:39:46 -!- shaunxcode [~chatzilla@c-98-202-35-176.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:41:36 Posterdati [~tapioca@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 05:44:56 worked just fine 05:44:59 I expected faster code 05:45:04 ops, a faster program. 05:45:17 phao: how could you? 05:45:44 gcc is slow. you can write in sbcl programs that run faster than programs doing the same thing compiled with gcc. 05:45:53 http://cliki.net/Performance 05:46:03 it's just that an eqv scheme program compiled with csc runs much faster.. but again, I have no clue how to properly use ecl 05:46:10 pjb, using MSVS cl here 05:46:29 Microsoft makes a cl compiler? 05:46:37 no no 05:46:45 cl is hte name of the c/c++ compiler of ms visual studio 05:47:50 Are you sure ecl can use it? 05:48:02 Otherwise, ecl has a bytecode compiler, with a vm. 05:48:23 yes... I have generated a .exe file 05:48:31 ok 05:48:32 it's showing the output of the command calls 05:49:59 pjb, in the scheme program, the major optimization was to use fx=, fx+, fx-, ... 05:50:03 instead of =, +, - 05:50:28 to make arithmetic be based on fixnum 05:51:27 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:52:27 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 05:56:30 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:56:41 -!- hypercube32 [~hypercube@246.111.188.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:56:45 [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 06:00:42 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-129-110.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:00:53 -!- dimilar [~user@124.160.56.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:01:06 dimilar [~user@124.160.56.108] has joined #lisp 06:01:49 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:02:04 -!- phao [phao@177.115.62.98] has quit [Quit: Not Here] 06:03:26 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ckxovhxzaoujfuhd] has joined #lisp 06:04:02 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7A62.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:05:57 shaunxcode [~chatzilla@c-98-202-35-176.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:51 -!- rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:11:02 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@110.140.66.49] has quit [Quit: Bye] 06:12:31 -!- maxm-- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:12:40 maxm-- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 06:13:18 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:14:13 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:15:02 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:15:55 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:55 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:15:55 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 06:16:14 I'm really happy that someone has taken the "port EL to CL" idea and run with it 06:16:21 http://tromey.com/blog/?p=709 06:17:45 ZabaQ [~Zaba@85-132-136-40-static.vivo.cz] has joined #lisp 06:18:36 -!- Buglouse [~buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:19:12 -!- r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:19:59 r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has joined #lisp 06:22:01 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has joined #lisp 06:24:05 -!- Kron [~Kron@69.166.23.81] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 06:24:23 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:25:12 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:26:16 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:26:22 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.45] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:29:59 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.178.28] has joined #lisp 06:32:10 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:30 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 06:33:32 -!- shaunxcode [~chatzilla@c-98-202-35-176.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:34:03 Buglouse [~buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:35:30 frx [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has joined #lisp 06:36:11 hello. is there a built in way to check uptime of a lisp program? 06:36:23 (seconds-since-program-started) or something 06:37:31 gko [~gko@27.243.167.122] has joined #lisp 06:38:51 frx: no 06:39:30 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-024-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:12 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.78.18] has joined #lisp 06:45:42 frx: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_in.htm 06:45:58 Some implementations e.g. SBCL base it on startup time but it's not portable. 06:46:20 that's fine, I'm using sbcl. thanks 06:46:25 ysph [~user@mobile-166-147-124-046.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:09 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@85-132-136-40-static.vivo.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:53:10 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.178.28] has quit [Quit: ...] 06:56:25 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:56:59 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-123-126.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:34 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-148-107.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:59:49 is a REPL really *that* simple in lisp? (loop (print (eval (read)))) 06:59:56 literally read eval print loop in reverse order 07:00:53 wow, it works 07:02:27 -!- espadrine [~thaddee_t@acces2477.res.insa-lyon.fr] has quit [Quit: espadrine] 07:03:35 yup :) 07:03:47 Aethaeryn: how's LISPing so far? 07:03:55 so this slime thing you guys are pushing here is really probably just two lines of Lisp then? ;-) 07:04:04 No 07:04:27 Cosman246: Lisp is amazingly different. It's hard to do easy things and easy to do hard things. 07:04:27 It has to communicate with the Common Lisp implementation 07:04:43 Aethaeryn: heh :) 07:04:57 and set up a lot of dirty work 07:05:14 zoot` [~user@c-98-237-148-5.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:38 there's a reason most (if not all) attempts to reproduce it in other editors (e.g. venom incarnate, commonly shortened to 'vi') have failed 07:05:57 emacs is written in Lisp? 07:06:00 slime lets you do really neat things. such as for example recompiling the rendering function without ever stopping the renderer 07:06:04 ltaoist1 [~mo@113.94.110.188] has joined #lisp 07:06:16 Aethaeryn: Emacs is written in a different LISP dialect 07:06:36 It's written in a primitive reconstruction of MACLisp, optimized for editing 07:06:39 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 07:06:43 called "Emacs Lisp" 07:07:08 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 07:07:10 If I had to write emacs today (and I realize they didn't have the luxury many decades ago), I would probably do the C parts in Lisp and the Lisp parts in an editorish "subset". Maybe I'd call it Subset Lisp ;-) 07:07:11 (note: MACLisp has nothing to do with the macintosh) 07:07:23 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.103] has joined #lisp 07:07:31 EmacOSX :o 07:07:35 Aethaeryn: Indeed. Many have tried re-writing Emacs 07:07:55 someone's been doing a series on their blog lately about just that 07:08:09 -!- ltaoist [~mo@183.20.110.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:08:09 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.103] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:08:26 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.103] has joined #lisp 07:08:26 Some are currently trying to re-implement Emacs Lisp in Common Lisp 07:08:34 Cosman246: except what you'd really have to wind up doing is have three Lisps. The Common Lisp to do the dirty implementation, the nice Subset Lisp, and the Emacs Lisp compatability mode. 07:08:42 which would be a great win 07:08:51 I wouldn't really bother with "subset lisp" 07:09:12 http://tromey.com/blog/?p=709 07:09:13 I'd just keep it as a package 07:09:20 eh, idk. You could make it a sort of stronger than elisp, weaker than cl, as a bit of a migration route if elisp's not an exact subset 07:09:21 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.103] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:09:29 Cosman246: There's a decent implementation in vim. I think the developer is in this channel. 07:09:41 naryl: I *did* say *most* 07:09:48 :] 07:09:48 naryl: there's a non-emacs person here? :o 07:09:54 no 07:09:58 I use viper-mode 07:10:00 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.103] has joined #lisp 07:10:14 oh, right, there is. 07:10:16 #emacs and #lisp might be two of the only channels with large ERC populations. 07:10:21 hrh 07:10:23 *heh 07:10:38 Aethaeryn: flip213 07:10:39 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.103] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:10:41 Everywhere else on Freenode, irssi is the trendy thing 07:10:57 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.103] has joined #lisp 07:11:00 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-141.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:11:07 I used to use XChat 07:11:10 Aethaeryn: I'm witnessing slow migration to weechat. 07:11:19 weechat-curses 07:11:45 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 07:11:46 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.103] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:12:03 maybe I'll make a cryptically named client that makes no sense, like lini is not irssi, in cl :-P 07:12:22 There is beirc. Fork it :) 07:12:22 Aethaeryn: I'm using vim + slimv 07:12:27 yay recursive acronyms 07:12:28 get rid of the 17% C from emacs, and you are 90% of the way to an operating system that's a Lisp Machine 07:12:36 Indeed! 07:12:51 Cosman246: I want to make an os just so I can have a ____ is not gnu 07:12:57 think of all of the possibilities with -ing 07:13:05 ring 07:13:06 wing 07:13:07 gnu really set us up for a good not-gnu 07:13:08 sing 07:13:09 bing 07:13:12 bring 07:13:14 ling 07:13:18 thing 07:13:18 come on, guys. 07:13:20 for nlp 07:13:41 fine, fine 07:13:42 Thing Hopefully Is Not Gnu 07:13:50 last one: lag "Lag Ain't Gnu" 07:13:53 Bring Really Is Not Gnu 07:14:39 hmm... Linug Is Not Unix/GNu 07:14:57 http://tromey.com/blog/?p=709 07:15:11 A Lisp OS needs a recursive name. 07:15:17 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 07:15:19 Actually, it needs tail recursion, unlike GNU's name. 07:15:23 and http://tromey.com/blog/?p=751 07:16:01 Someone's trying to write a Lisp OS, (as were many), though he won't be using CL, Scheme, Emacs Lisp, Arc, or Clojure 07:16:04 loper-os.org 07:16:53 According to http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html, writing X should be so trivial in Lisp that there should be a dozen attempts already. Of course, the same site says Arc is a 100-year language. 07:17:11 Arc is vaporware 07:17:56 hmm, while searching for tail recursion I found this... http://catb.org/jargon/html/T/tail-recursion.html 07:18:23 oh god, not the 2004 Jargon File 07:18:34 I have a local version which I try to update... 07:18:44 cosman246.com/jargon.html 07:18:46 Cosman246: was it better originally? 07:19:04 before he injected his politics and ego into it 07:19:10 anyway, I must sleep soon 07:19:15 Goodnight, #lisp 07:19:30 sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 07:19:31 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 07:19:40 Cosman246: ah, I kind of like the all-on-one-page version 07:19:44 hello. can i somehow jump to the repl in the middle of a program, while it's already running? 07:19:55 I get to notice things like the similar "recursion" entry at http://cosman246.com/jargon.html#recursion 07:20:39 -!- sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 07:21:11 sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 07:21:29 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.172.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:21:37 sezo (break) 07:22:11 -!- dimilar [~user@124.160.56.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:22:50 gi, just found sb-ext:set-sbcl-source-location (from Xach's blog) 07:23:54 -!- Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:24:07 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has left #lisp 07:27:47 Hmm.... 07:28:00 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:28:08 You can write languages in Lisp, obviously. It's a programming language. 07:28:24 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-144-244.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:35 I wonder how easy it would be to write Lisps in Lisp, e.g. a scheme in cl. 07:29:52 -!- naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:30:08 Aethaeryn: it is easy to write something that is slow, fsvo 'easy' 07:30:35 naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has joined #lisp 07:31:04 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:31:29 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:31:33 -!- zoot` [~user@c-98-237-148-5.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:32:17 H4ns: just a quick google shows that sbcl is way faster than a lot of languages that people get by in (e.g. Ruby, Python, Perl, PHP) 07:33:12 so writing a language in cl is way more usable than, e.g., Python 07:33:22 not surprising as those are interpreted. sbcl compiles to machine code 07:33:51 Yes. 07:33:59 Aethaeryn: i'm not sure how that relates to your question regarding how "easy" it would be to implement a lisp in lisp. 07:34:09 -!- gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:34:22 So, I guess my point is, an interpreted cl language shoudn't be that much slower than another interpreted language. 07:34:45 Aethaeryn: it is not easy to write a fast interpreter. 07:34:57 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:35:49 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:36:03 H4ns: Obviously. 07:36:24 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:36:31 "This would be interesting" and "this can be used on a production machine for real work" are two different things. 07:36:54 good morning 07:36:56 plenty of popular slow interpreted languages out there 07:36:58 Aethaeryn: "this would be interesting" and "this would be interesting" are two different things, too :) 07:37:15 when you want to update some function do you copy/paste it in the lisp repl? 07:37:18 :) 07:37:19 all depends on the machine and the work 07:37:22 after changing source 07:37:40 sezo: no, I press ctrl-c twice. 07:37:41 sezo: no, i press C-M-x 07:37:43 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 07:39:10 where do you press that? 07:39:29 sezo: in the source buffer, with the cursor in the function to recompile 07:40:04 I am using sbcl 07:40:19 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:40:32 sezo: how do you edit your source code? are you using slime? 07:40:41 no 07:40:47 sezo: do. 07:41:23 sezo: here are setup instructions: http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/ 07:42:17 sezo with slime you can code and recompile live, without quitting program 07:42:32 sezo: what are you using to edit code? 07:44:08 ultraedit. I wanted to give emacs a try, but not sure it's a good idea to learn both emacs and lisp at the same time 07:44:49 learn emacs ~= learn lisp 07:44:50 sezo: working with lisp will be easier with slime, for example because you can recompile functions from within the editor. 07:45:49 sezo: you can certainly reload the file after you've changed it, from the repl, but it will be tedious and you'll not have the whole incremental development experience that is a large part of lisps coolness. 07:45:53 I'll give it a try 07:46:03 sezo: basic emacs usage (the equivalent of using ultraedit) is pretty easy to learn 07:46:24 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:46:38 what do you mean by incremental development? 07:47:58 (incf foo) 07:48:57 sezo as an example I have a message loop running in the repl right now, and I can update the function that's called when a button is pressed without quitting the program, without closing the window that use that callback, and without even breaking the message loop 07:49:11 uses* 07:49:20 when do we really need let? most of times I'm just using let* instead of let. also, does let expand into a lambda like explained in SICP, or are modern CL implementations doing something more efficient? 07:49:38 sezo: continuous interaction with the lisp system as you write, modify and test pieces of code - as opposed to the "write / compile / run / test the whole program then repeat" approach 07:49:50 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.78.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:50:32 ok that sounds really interesting 07:51:55 osa1: when you want to do parallel binding. 07:51:58 osa1 I use let when I don't need sequential binding 07:52:33 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:52:33 I almost never need sequential binding. 07:52:51 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-hoogvndvwebneawo] has joined #lisp 07:52:51 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-hoogvndvwebneawo] has quit [Changing host] 07:52:51 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:52:58 the only time it really comes up is when I'm doing complex math or binding a C++ lib 07:53:12 mishoo [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has joined #lisp 07:53:30 jingtao [~jingtaozf@li382-207.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 07:53:33 osa1: i use let when i don't need let*. it makes it easier for me to read the code, as the space where the variables are coming from is limited. furthermore, i tend to use two let bindings if i only one variable depends on the variables earlier specified, for exactly that reason: readability. 07:54:18 for the same reason, i tend to use flet, instead of labels, by default. 07:55:28 thanks. what about my other question? modern CL implementations doesn't expand let's to lambda's like described in SICP, right? 07:55:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-111.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:56:13 disassemble is your friend 07:56:44 #'disassemble 07:56:52 also: M-. 07:58:07 osa1: let is rarely "needed", but it makes it easier to read code. when using let*, you indicate that the initialization forms depend on each other. 07:58:40 osa1: I doubt they do so, but they may. the spec doesn't say how the code needs to be expanded afaict 08:00:18 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.178.28] has joined #lisp 08:02:17 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 08:02:17 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 08:02:17 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:02:31 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:04:22 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-129-110.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:04:48 -!- Buglouse [~buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:06:42 jiaxi [~jiaxi@61.148.56.138] has joined #lisp 08:07:18 -!- lispyone [~lispyone@24.144.8.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:07:47 lispyone [~lispyone@24.144.25.50] has joined #lisp 08:07:49 peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has joined #lisp 08:08:53 tiglog [~topeak@123.114.127.146] has joined #lisp 08:09:50 -!- tiglog [~topeak@123.114.127.146] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:10:17 tiglog [~topeak@123.114.127.146] has joined #lisp 08:11:49 jingtao` [~jingtaozf@117.79.232.163] has joined #lisp 08:12:58 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:13:23 how can I sort strings by size? 08:13:47 Using sort? 08:13:59 yes 08:14:06 'sort' function requires a comparison function, sezo 08:14:10 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@li382-207.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:14:23 search before asking please 08:14:36 sezo: :key #'length 08:15:02 or maybe :key 'length 08:15:23 what's the difference? 08:16:05 Vinnipeg [~zaytsev_k@PPPoE-78-29-97-129.san.ru] has joined #lisp 08:16:34 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:16:41 Scope. 08:19:03 Posterdati: http://ahefner.livejournal.com/20528.html and https://github.com/ahefner/asm6502 08:20:25 hmm what's the difference between flet and labels? 08:20:39 Recursion. 08:21:49 is there a standard function that can render duration (in seconds) to be human readable? "1 days 2 hours.. " 08:23:00 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:23:12 -!- ASau` [~user@95-27-175-50.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:23:24 frx: nope 08:23:51 ASau` [~user@93-80-253-228.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:24:16 mishoo [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has joined #lisp 08:26:23 frx: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127560 might be a start 08:27:00 frx: you may want to lose the setf, which i'd consider gratitious 08:28:00 frx: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127560#1 08:28:06 frx: i have a function for that which works with local-time 08:29:28 vervic [~vervic@chello080109071009.14.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 08:29:31 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:29:48 thanks h4ns. can you paste it too jdz? if you don't mind 08:29:51 love the :key part of sort 08:30:16 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 08:30:16 why does (macroexpand '#(1 2 3)) return #(1 2 3) ? 08:30:46 (sort (list "aaa" "c" "bb") '< :key 'length) returns ("c" "bb" "aaa") 08:31:23 frx: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127561 08:32:25 sezo: And this surprises you because ... ? 08:32:39 Ah, you're not surprised. Good. 08:32:44 just thought it was nice, the :key part 08:34:32 osa1: what did you expect it to return? 08:34:33 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:49 jdz: read-macro expanded form of #(1 2 3) 08:35:17 osa1: you know that reader macros run at read time, right? 08:35:18 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ugwbaeofsbmqbpki] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:35:49 jdz: ok so is there a way to see read-macro expanded form? 08:36:13 osa1: reader macros do not expand 08:36:20 osa1: they run and return objects 08:37:45 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.4.1] 08:39:25 osa1: you can get the function which is associated with a particular reader macro character, and run it on your onw 08:41:08 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 08:42:58 jdz: why does read-delimited-list work different with #\) and #\} as endchar? http://paste.pocoo.org/show/547163/ 08:44:03 -!- Vinnipeg [~zaytsev_k@PPPoE-78-29-97-129.san.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:45:48 osa1: because #\) is a reader macro (get-macro-char #\)) but not #\} 08:46:18 you cannot have a symbol with a #\) in it. 08:46:44 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:46:54 osa1: look in Ctl2 to understand how the reader works 08:47:18 vantage|work [~chatzilla@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 08:48:47 what's the convention behind starting function names with a percent symbol? 08:49:35 ysph: it's a convention to make the function look ugly for unsuspecting eyes and not want to use it 08:50:06 in that case, it has succeeded 08:50:07 ysph: don't use it 08:50:31 osa1: also, read the description of non-terminating-p optional parameter to SET-MACRO-CHARACTER 08:50:32 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.147.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 08:50:39 osa1: and yeah, the whole chapter on reader :) 08:51:08 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 08:51:20 anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has joined #lisp 08:55:53 in sldb, is it showing me the real last in? or could it possibly be further in some other library that is omitted due to compile settings or something along those lines? 08:56:32 ysph: showing you the real what? 08:56:39 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:56:52 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-034.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:57:08 -!- jiaxi [~jiaxi@61.148.56.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:57:20 stack frame 08:57:41 ysph: you can see the backtrace, right? 08:57:47 jiaxi [~jiaxi@61.148.56.138] has joined #lisp 08:58:47 ysph: usually you will see everything in the backtrace, with the exception of foreign or inlined stuff 08:59:49 yes, i should be more specific, the program is hanging, but when looking at the source for the top of the stack trace, i don't see how it could hang there, however there is epoll_wait further along, inside another named lisp function 09:00:42 ysph: how did you end up in the debugger? 09:01:04 i entered from the thread list in slime 09:02:15 -!- frx [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (EOF)] 09:02:31 ysph: well, then it depends on how the thread is being interrupted; but the interruption code will surely have some stack frames 09:06:42 ah, if the epoll_wait is in a method call, would the stack trace show the function calling the method? 09:07:19 ysph: why don't you look at your stack trace man? 09:08:22 i am looking at it, it shows me the function calling the method, my question is, could it be hanging inside the call to the method as opposed to strictly inside the function? 09:08:42 -!- jingtao` [~jingtaozf@117.79.232.163] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:09:04 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 09:09:54 ysph: i have no clue what you're talking about. try pasting your backtrace (paste.lisp.org or something) 09:10:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:12:29 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.113.103] has joined #lisp 09:12:49 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:13:17 splittist [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has joined #lisp 09:13:21 morning 09:14:11 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 09:14:56 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:15:01 kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 09:16:27 blandest [~user@79.112.54.142] has joined #lisp 09:16:39 -!- df__ is now known as df_ 09:16:41 hkarlen [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has joined #lisp 09:19:52 -!- sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: quit] 09:19:53 is there a step by step debugging similar to emacs edebug? 09:20:55 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.176.159] has joined #lisp 09:23:54 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:24:05 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:25:05 ivan-kanis: wrap the form you want to debug in STEP. 09:25:59 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:26:55 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 09:27:02 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:27:03 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:29:20 -!- Athas is now known as jre 09:29:31 -!- jre is now known as Athas 09:29:44 https://gist.github.com/1758647 09:30:37 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:32:59 jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has joined #lisp 09:36:38 -!- vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:36:54 ysph: so, the "hanging" looks like to be in IOLIB.MULTIPLEX::DISPATCH-FD-EVENTS-ONCE 09:37:14 ysph: and the "hanging" probably is a wait on a file descriptor 09:37:27 ysph: and in this case apparently there are 0 of those 09:37:41 i have no clue about iolib, though 09:38:05 ch077179_ [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 09:38:43 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:57 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fkuyjqfxmltpkfpi] has joined #lisp 09:39:19 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:39:28 jdz: i had to force that one, in reality the hang happens after differing execution times, but always with an open file descriptor and a input buffer containing readable data 09:39:40 -!- ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Quit: brb] 09:39:46 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39:52 ysph: maybe not enough readable data? 09:40:45 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 09:40:48 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:40:50 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-206-10.uio.no] has joined #lisp 09:41:35 i'm wondering about that, there must be something in particular that causes epoll to signal an event for the FD, i did try manually reading the data from the FD after entering the debugger and it is all there, just no event fires 09:43:42 ysph: well, does the epoll use edge-triggering? 09:43:58 ysph: reading the epoll man page it looks like that might cause the problem you're seeing 09:44:27 jdz: right, it's using level triggering, i've played around with various configurations 09:45:02 -!- jiaxi [~jiaxi@61.148.56.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:47:06 re stack trace confusion: https://gist.github.com/1758803 09:49:09 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-177-193-169.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:49:43 maybe since it uses a timeout on epoll-wait, there is only a slight chance i will see harvest-events on interrupt 09:50:06 flip213: hi 09:50:20 Posterdati: hi, did you get my message? 09:50:32 I'm reading right now 09:51:14 cmm [~cmm@109.67.197.155] has joined #lisp 09:51:42 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:53:37 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.13.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:55:51 vervic_ [~vervic@chello080109071009.14.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:56:01 -!- vervic_ [~vervic@chello080109071009.14.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:56:19 vervic_ [~vervic@chello080109071009.14.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:57:30 JiggyBlkMn [~JiggyBlkM@189.223.66.232.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:46 flip213: weird 09:57:46 -!- vervic [~vervic@chello080109071009.14.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:57:47 -!- vervic_ is now known as vervic 09:58:01 I said weird not vervic 10:01:39 -!- jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:02:11 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.176.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:03:07 zophy [~zophy@host-5-150-220-24.midco.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:18 -!- JiggyBlkMn [~JiggyBlkM@189.223.66.232.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has quit [K-Lined] 10:04:36 jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has joined #lisp 10:05:41 -!- ysph [~user@mobile-166-147-124-046.mycingular.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08:06 -!- naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:08:51 naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has joined #lisp 10:12:06 ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 10:12:57 flip213: interesting a good job, I talked with hefner yesterday 10:13:00 LucasCampos [~lucas@186.212.134.226] has joined #lisp 10:15:07 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-238-225.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:18:14 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:20:09 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:20:44 Frozenlo` [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-182.electronicbox.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:12 kiuma [~kiuma@proxykno.emea.fedex.com] has joined #lisp 10:23:09 kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-238-225.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 10:24:49 -!- Frozenlock [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-182.electronicbox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:30:15 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: going to moon brb. If you see this, /msg AfterDeath your bot is awesome] 10:31:45 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 10:36:23 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-116.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:36:48 benny [~benny@i577A7F95.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:37:36 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-lwiannxvykrpkkby] has joined #lisp 10:38:10 hmm, why does ccl script not determine ccl directory from its own path? 10:38:16 rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has joined #lisp 10:38:22 everyone is able to do since well, since like 1980's 10:38:47 ask gary byers. he probably has a very specific reason. 10:38:50 "edit the file and change the path" then copy it to /usr/local/bin seems amateurish 10:39:14 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-129-110.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:39:40 JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 10:40:04 i'm pretty sure that his answer will be rather patronizing if you use this or a similar wording in your question. 10:40:31 *maxm--* needs people skills 10:41:13 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.163.101] has joined #lisp 10:46:33 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:46:33 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 10:46:41 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:47:05 question about paredit and slime repl history. is anybody use paredit in slime repl? 10:50:34 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-lwiannxvykrpkkby] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:52:01 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:52:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:52:50 -!- gz` [gz@clozure-123267BA.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 10:53:32 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-mzdgshaadxuqxsrv] has joined #lisp 10:54:54 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:00 -!- gko [~gko@27.243.167.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:55:04 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 10:58:29 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-mzdgshaadxuqxsrv] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:59:26 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:59:57 -!- tiglog [~topeak@123.114.127.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:00:09 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:03:31 paul0 [~paul0@189.26.130.175.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 11:04:07 Hi all, I'm probably being stupid or I've never noticed something obvious before... I expect `(1 `(a 2 ,,3)) to evaluate to `(1 `(A 2 3)) but it evaluates to `(1 `(A ,2 ,3)) why? 11:05:34 Or did something mess with my CL image?! 11:06:48 jtza8: what's the difference? 11:08:01 segfault_ [segfault@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-xkdhlmsbjjxizpbn] has joined #lisp 11:09:40 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:09:41 This: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127567 11:10:09 That is to say, what's up with the SB-IMPL::BACKQ-COMMA 11:10:11 ? 11:11:39 SBCL's backquote-comma? 11:12:40 afaik there is no standard function for it like cl:quote. 11:12:55 thus each implementation has its own 11:13:08 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 11:14:38 Sure, but why is it there to begin with? Why is it wrapped around those s-exps? 11:15:00 jtza8: I think you just have a quasi too many 11:15:16 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.197.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:15:18 Notice that the expansion has a quasi on the defsetf 11:15:33 -!- ltaoist1 [~mo@113.94.110.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:16:07 s/on/in 11:16:12 jtza8: check the http://paste.lisp.org/display/127567#1 11:16:48 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 11:17:30 jdz: why not just ,',@ ? 11:17:46 daimrod: because it's _splicing_ 11:18:15 Thanks jdz 11:18:49 Still a bit confused as to the difference. 11:18:55 -!- kanru` [~user@118.163.10.190] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:19:18 Guess I'll read this in detail: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 11:19:25 hkarlen` [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has joined #lisp 11:19:57 jtza8: well, first of all, you have a comma and right after you have possible many forms spliced in 11:20:28 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 11:20:57 -!- hkarlen [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:20:58 jtza8: my english sucks today 11:22:26 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:23:10 actually, the splicing is not needed, and the boddy of ecase can be just ,',cases 11:23:17 -!- waveman [~tim@124-168-114-219.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:24:46 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:25:02 (i annotated the paste once more) 11:25:02 leo2007 [~leo@114.249.198.151] has joined #lisp 11:25:11 jtza8: you can also read "Quasiquotation in Lisp" by Alan Bawden. 11:25:14 -!- hkarlen` is now known as hkarlen 11:25:23 Makes sense now, thanks. :) 11:25:39 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.178.28] has quit [Quit: ...] 11:26:00 lispmeister [~fix@AStDenis-551-1-127-33.w90-43.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:26:38 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 11:27:09 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 11:27:32 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082A52C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:34 tbh, i have not yet mastered the nested quasiquotation myself 11:28:49 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5B3261AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:29:16 Seems your second form produces an extra s-exp around cases... so your first is needed. 11:29:59 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:04 Quasiquotation is a bit trickier than it seems, seemingly. 11:30:53 Sbidicuda [~antani@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:31:00 I suppose it's the recursive aspect of metacognition that obfuscates quasiquotes a bit... 11:31:25 jtza8: check out the third :) 11:31:25 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@me02c36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:33:51 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-144-244.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:33:56 That one works well. 11:34:33 espadrine [~thaddee_t@acces2477.res.insa-lyon.fr] has joined #lisp 11:34:39 Thanks again, you helped me a lot. 11:40:41 does anyone know an easy way to pretty print json? I'm using cl-json, but unless I'm missing something, it will only output compact json. 11:41:45 limetree: yason can do it. 11:42:19 limetree: sadly, the pprint-json function that it has is undocumented. 11:42:39 -!- lispmeister [~fix@AStDenis-551-1-127-33.w90-43.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:42:57 oh, ok. i'll have a look. 11:43:25 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:44:51 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fkuyjqfxmltpkfpi] has left #lisp 11:45:51 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 11:45:53 i doubt it, but is there a way to "unload" a system/library? yason seems to conflict with cl-json which i already have loaded. 11:46:18 it's the "json" package name I presume 11:46:45 limetree: (delete-package :json) might help 11:47:52 yes, that did it 11:48:08 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-034.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:48:13 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-034.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has 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[~zaytsev_k@PPPoE-78-29-86-147.san.ru] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 12:39:08 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:39:19 rmathews [~roshan@59.92.72.134] has joined #lisp 12:41:41 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:41:51 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-111.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:43:21 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 12:47:28 easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 12:48:12 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 12:49:30 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 12:52:04 ltaoist [~mo@113.94.110.188] has joined #lisp 12:53:17 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.206.142] has joined #lisp 12:55:47 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-123-126.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 12:57:52 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.206.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:57:58 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:58:07 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.206.142] has joined #lisp 12:58:10 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-134-75.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:25 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:00:22 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 13:01:30 hkarlen` [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has joined #lisp 13:02:13 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:04:07 hey guys 13:04:37 q: does slime understand emacs lisp, can it help me write emacs lisp apps? 13:04:49 quazimodo: no 13:04:51 -!- hkarlen [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:05:04 quazimodo: slime is not needed for elisp development. 13:06:01 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:07:46 quazimodo: emacs lisp already has many of the features in slime. 13:07:48 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:08:03 eldoc, edebug, etc. slime was inspired by emacs's lisp development environment. 13:08:14 Slime doesn't add anything to elisp mode, by default at least. There's probably someone's experimental mode out there, but in general, I'd say just use emacs' default stuff. 13:08:29 Yep, what Xach said. 13:09:22 Also, use ielm to get an elisp REPL. 13:09:36 i guess it'd provide a different emacs process for development which may be interesting 13:10:09 (M-x ielm) 13:13:19 quazimodo: You may also like paredit mode, which works in any lisp... but I'm talking way too much as it is. :) 13:13:31 *saying 13:13:34 in slime M-. (find-tag) works straight-out-the-box; is there a way to get elisp do the same, without having to manually create TAGS? 13:14:21 Someone asked that last week and was linked to an elisp library to do it, but the name escapes me now. 13:15:08 -!- hkarlen` [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:15:43 -!- easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has quit [Quit: Outta here?] 13:16:48 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-plzhsldjsebzzsxw] has joined #lisp 13:20:15 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:18 Hello, does compiling a tail-recursive function make it get TCO? 13:21:37 hkarlen [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has joined #lisp 13:21:39 espadrine: that depends on your implementation. the language standard does not guarantee it. 13:22:03 I am using clisp here, and tracing a tco-compatible function clearly shows several layers of recursivity 13:22:11 hkarlen` [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:18 Kron_ [~Kron@129.97.120.121] has joined #lisp 13:22:28 On the other hand, once compiled, the function returns the result directly 13:22:49 espadrine: so the compiler optimized the tail call away. 13:22:55 -!- hkarlen` [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:23:24 hkarlen` [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has joined #lisp 13:23:46 H4ns: Then I tried to compile the non-tco factorial function, traced it, and run it, and it got the same result... 13:24:13 espadrine: DISASSEMBLE might help you understand what it is doing. 13:24:59 espadrine: in common lisp, it is best to not rely on tail call optimization. if you rely on it, you make your code non-portable. 13:25:08 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:25:52 -!- hkarlen [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:25:54 -!- hkarlen` is now known as hkarlen 13:26:53 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:27:01 zgr [~zgrge@79.165.28.140] has joined #lisp 13:27:23 Xach: thanks. Indeed, it does tco when it can, but (trace 'fact) doesn't work if the function is compiled. 13:27:47 (for the meaning of "work" that I had in mind when using it) 13:29:19 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.139.94] has joined #lisp 13:30:42 H4ns: how bad can it be? I've heard a lot of good about tail call optimization. 13:30:52 i've tried to rely on TCO in the past. i wanted to do some debugging, but with the debugging level turned up, my program wouldn't even run. 13:31:00 the stack blew up 13:31:05 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-024-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:31:39 there is nothing bad about tail call optimization. it is just something that is not guaranteed by common lisp, so one can't rely on it in the same sense as one can rely on it in, e.g. scheme. 13:33:01 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:33:32 oh, I see 13:34:37 Patterngazer [~Patternga@globulon.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:47 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:35:38 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA26C81.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:37:30 pnq [~nick@ACA26C81.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:24 lispmeister [~fix@AStDenis-551-1-56-198.w92-160.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:42:45 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA26C81.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:44:07 re 13:44:26 hmm 13:44:31 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-050-171.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:25 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:45:36 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-169-14-16.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:45:37 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:23 ch077179_ [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 13:47:01 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:47:12 -!- zgr [~zgrge@79.165.28.140] has left #lisp 13:47:39 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:48:06 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:48:48 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:48:58 hmm? 13:50:01 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:50:54 is sb-unix:unix-select still the way to select()? 13:51:45 -!- milanj [~milanj_@212.200.217.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:52:05 z0d: well, if you're purely on SBCL it'll work 13:53:08 There is IOLIB-MULTIPLEX though, that I believe does what you want in a somewhat more platform-agnistic way 13:54:29 thanks 13:54:47 z0d: The functions in sb-unix aren't intended for users. If I wanted select(2), I'd probably write something with sb-alien or something. 13:55:25 seems like something that should be in sb-posix :p 13:55:47 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:56:48 *Xach* used sb-alien to interact with epoll instead 13:57:02 Xach: isn't that what iolib does? 13:57:09 Athas [~athas@fw.math.ku.dk] has joined #lisp 13:57:25 _schulte_ [~eschulte@173-12-202-43-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:25 loke: I don't know. 13:57:43 Xach: damn. I was hoping you'd tell me :-) It does seem like it though. 13:57:50 When I needed it, iolib wasn't around. 13:58:30 there isn't that much difference between epoll and select for low to medium traffic 13:59:15 Maybe there's little difference in performance, but I found the programming interface nicer. 14:02:09 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:03:50 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:04:14 Xach: when is the next QL update coming? 14:04:41 I meant to do it this past weekend, but got derailed. I hope to do it before next monday. 14:04:47 you do know that I'm donating money (not much though, unfortunately) every time there is a new QL release or updates to the dists 14:04:57 :-) 14:05:40 *Xach* should spend some of that money on a babysitter, disappear to a cafe for a few hours to do releases 14:05:50 Argh :-) 14:05:51 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Quit: Enlightenment tells me I have to reboot. :( There goes my uptime.] 14:06:12 One release for every updated package 14:06:23 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 14:06:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:08:25 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@173-12-202-43-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:09:26 loke: expect to get _many_ ql releases now ... every day or even every hour ;) 14:10:22 hkarlen` [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has joined #lisp 14:11:21 -!- lispmeister [~fix@AStDenis-551-1-56-198.w92-160.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 14:11:27 Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 14:13:03 If only! 14:13:08 -!- hkarlen [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:13:09 -!- Athas [~athas@fw.math.ku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:15:30 cyrillos [~cyrill@swsoft-msk-nat.sw.ru] has joined #lisp 14:16:05 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@128.113.215.235] has joined #lisp 14:16:05 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@128.113.215.235] has quit [Changing host] 14:16:05 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 14:17:10 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 14:17:22 hkarlen`` [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has joined #lisp 14:20:02 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:20:14 -!- hkarlen` [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:21:16 Buglouse [~buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:56 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:23:54 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@195.160.233.181] has joined #lisp 14:25:29 does anyone know, is there a standard CL function exactly like "mapcar" family but which also accepts a predicate that determines where to stop 14:25:45 i just don't want to map the whole list, for example 14:26:03 egnarts-ms: use non-local control transfer 14:26:16 egnarts-ms: simplest way might be to use loop or iterate ... 14:26:31 jdz: just block/return ? 14:26:41 else you'd need to use mapcan and a local variable that remembers to return nil 14:26:49 ick 14:26:55 egnarts-ms: yeah, but you will not be able to collect the result of mpacar 14:27:00 jdz: but where does he get the first half of the data= 14:27:58 something like (let ((stop nil)) (mapcan (lambda (x) (and stop (progn (if ... (setf stop t)) ... x)))) 14:28:15 That is pretty nasty. 14:28:24 Is there anything like virtualenv or rvm for common lisp that allows you to control available packages and dependencies per project? 14:28:27 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:28:35 rson_: No. 14:28:46 rson_: what is virtualenv or rvm? 14:28:48 Xach: Thanks. 14:29:05 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.105.247] has joined #lisp 14:29:11 egnarts-ms: the loop/iterate version will be much faster if you decide to stop early, as it doesn't look at the whole list 14:29:19 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:30:26 flip123: well yes, and if this functionality is required in multiple places -- nothing prevents from wrapping this logic in a separate defun 14:30:32 jdz: they allow you to modify your environment when working on a project (virtualenv = python, rvm = ruby) such that only packages you specifiy are available. This ensures you're not using a library or anything that you haven't listed in your dependencies, and also allows you to have packages installed that aren't system-wide or even user-wide. 14:30:34 -!- Phoodus [~foo@50.98.2.227] has quit [] 14:33:41 rson_: sounds interesting and not too complicated for CL and ASDF but I know of no existing tool for it. 14:34:35 Xach: yeah, it seems like it would be simple to do. Maybe once I get more comfortable with CL I'll look into it. 14:35:28 fortitudeZDY [~user@222.89.190.19] has joined #lisp 14:36:24 -!- Ttm [~ripault@sao-paulo.lrde.epita.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:42 jewel [~jewel@196.215.168.240] has joined #lisp 14:38:45 kmcorbett_ [~kmcorbett@mobile-198-228-195-219.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:08 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:40:19 -!- kmcorbett [kmcorbett@clozure-9FE07BBF.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 14:41:02 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:42:13 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:42:13 -!- kmcorbett_ is now known as kmcorbett 14:43:06 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.163.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:44:01 -!- sipo [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 14:44:19 -!- fortitudeZDY [~user@222.89.190.19] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:46:14 fortitudeZDY [~user@222.89.190.19] has joined #lisp 14:47:24 yoklov [~yoklov@137.99.241.137] has joined #lisp 14:48:52 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@mobile-198-228-195-219.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 14:49:44 H4ns: using yason, i'm trying to convert a hash table (it's a nested structure) into a json object, and some of these hash tables have symbols for keys. 14:49:55 that doesn't seem to work. i'm not sure how to do it. 14:51:45 -!- Buglouse [~buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:53:41 Buglouse [~buglouse@65.28.172.255] has joined #lisp 14:53:54 sipo [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:17 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.206.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:54:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:55:13 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:59:15 the section "Application specific encoders" in the docs describes it. i'm not used to methods but I can probably figure it out. 15:00:09 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:00:15 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-111.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:00:47 Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-121.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 15:01:40 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129.97.120.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:01:46 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@proxykno.emea.fedex.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:40 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:02:47 wildnux [~wildnux@pool-71-252-145-78.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:29 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:05:21 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:05:27 -!- Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-121.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:06:27 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-121.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 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[~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:17:35 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-134-75.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:18:14 milanj [~milanj_@77-46-203-250.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:19:11 -!- ltaoist [~mo@113.94.110.188] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:19:11 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-208-87.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:17 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@129-97-120-121.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:19:31 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-156-254.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:12 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:22:58 -!- jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:25:12 re 15:26:20 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-141-41.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:55 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:28:54 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-156-254.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:29:37 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:29:58 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:30:50 setheus [~setheus@72.190.112.13] has joined #lisp 15:31:20 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.45] has joined #lisp 15:34:40 -!- Guest65872 is now known as mk_ 15:35:27 jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 15:37:25 is there a function like princ except it returns a string? 15:37:36 limetree: princ-to-string 15:37:43 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-157-189.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:52 ah, simple. 15:37:53 obscurely named 15:37:57 :) 15:40:45 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-141-41.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:41:08 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:31 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 11.0/20120201153158]] 15:43:19 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:43:21 I use (FORMAT NIL ...) a lot... Often even when PRINC-TO-STRING would work. Is that bad? 15:43:24 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:31 I just love format ;_) 15:43:31 loke: no 15:43:47 it's there. use it 15:44:01 I use it instead of concatenate as well 15:44:40 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:44:50 limetree: could you figure it out? 15:45:02 -!- fortitudeZDY [~user@222.89.190.19] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45:04 Anyway. Does anyone have managed to do OAuth 2.0 with CL? There is an oauth library in QL, but it seems to be OAuth 1.0 only. 15:46:46 loke: assumedly, (format nil "~A" thing) can be generated as (princ-to-string thing). 15:47:19 It could. 15:47:55 -!- kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:48:54 is that a job for a compiler macro? 15:49:20 wtf 15:49:25 CCL actually does that 15:49:30 Aethaeryn: actually the REPL features specified by CLHS make it a little more complex than (loop (print (eval (read)))), but not much: http://paste.lisp.org/display/18280 15:49:38 SBCL doesn't seem to do it 15:49:43 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@137.99.241.137] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 15:49:53 daimrod: there's already mechanisms in CLHS to optimize format. See clhs formatter and the rest of the format chapter. 15:50:37 -!- jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:50:57 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:59 I'll be darned 15:51:01 CLISP does it too 15:51:43 jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 15:52:52 H4ns: i added a method for symbols doing basically: (format stream "~S" (string-downcase (princ-to-string object)))) 15:52:59 that did the trick it seems 15:53:24 limetree: just string-downcase will work both for symbols and strings 15:53:38 oh, ok 15:55:02 pjb: ah thanks. 15:55:38 -!- BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:55:52 H4ns: I'm having some issues with the pretty printer, though. 15:56:10 the indent level seems to perpetually increasing, never decreasing 15:56:12 limetree: Use SYMBOL-NAME instead? 15:56:57 limetree: that's bad. i have not written it and failed to review it, as it seems. let me try asking the author. 15:57:05 wait, that's not right. the problem is that every item in a list is indented. 15:57:19 (more and more indents for each item) 15:57:47 loke: string-downcase accepts a string designator. 15:58:33 limetree: ah, ok. still bad :( 15:59:44 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:00:09 shaunxcode [~chatzilla@c-98-202-35-176.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:34 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:40 yoklov [~yoklov@67.221.70.210] has joined #lisp 16:01:01 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:01:42 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:02:25 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 16:03:27 (i tried to paste a sample, but lisppaste isn't cooperating) 16:03:40 http://paste.lisp.org/display/127575 is it 16:04:06 looks mostly useless. 16:04:33 i think i'll have to pull out the function, in particular as it breaks with strings that have embedded commas 16:04:44 limetree: i'm sorry to have suggested that. 16:04:50 yes, I noticed that too 16:04:54 antifuchs: You should be awake by now, so  Happy Birthday! 16:05:12 antifuchs: happy birthday from me, too, you ex-twen! 16:05:25 note that it does output the whole object, I just couldn't get all of it in the clipboard 16:05:34 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-plzhsldjsebzzsxw] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:05:50 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77-46-203-250.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:08:07 -!- hkarlen`` [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:08:39 -!- vantage|work [~chatzilla@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0/20120129021758]] 16:09:29 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 16:09:36 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:50 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 16:10:01 LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-161-202.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 16:13:46 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 16:15:13 dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 16:17:16 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.45] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 16:18:02 daimrod: that's because of the syntax of #\} vs. the syntax of #\). read-delimited-list reads tokens, and #\} is by default treated just like a letter, having the constituent syntax. #\) has the terminating macro syntax. if you input "2 3 4 }" to read-delimited-list it would work. You can also (set-syntax-from-char #\} #\)) to make #\} a terminating macro syntax character and have "2 3 4}" be read as you want by read-delimited-list. 16:18:08 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:57 limetree: ok, the author does not have time, so i need to apologize. the pprint-json function in yason does not work and i'll remove it. 16:19:00 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 9.0.1/20111220165912]] 16:19:25 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-206-10.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 16:19:34 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:37 hollanj [~hollanj@137.28.94.63] has joined #lisp 16:21:17 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:21:25 asvil: you could activate paredit in the slime repl, but most probably, output in that buffer will contain unbalanced parentheses. For example: (format t "~:{~A) ~A~%~}" '((1 "Apple") (2 "Orange") (3 "Pear"))) will unbalance the parentheses, and therefore disable paredit. 16:22:14 H4ns: i might take a look at it unless i can find another pretty printer. it would probably be educational. 16:22:51 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:23:24 limetree: ok - but please put it into the encoder rather than trying to make it a standalone function, which is bound to fail 16:23:37 limetree: i'll happily help you with any questions you might have 16:23:42 i thought that would make more sense 16:25:02 espadrine: there's also the fact that there are much less tail calls in lisp programs than in scheme programs, mostly because of constructs such as dynaminc binding and unwind-protect (which often hides in macros). 16:26:07 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.105.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:27:11 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ckxovhxzaoujfuhd] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:27:21 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.105.247] has joined #lisp 16:27:26 egnarts-ms: so you'll have to write your own early-stop-mapcar, it's not too hard and quite interesting, if you want to process the multiple lists as in cl:mapcar. 16:28:35 I was surprised at the reaction to this CL thread on emacs-devel 16:28:45 What was it? 16:28:47 usually talk about cl.el is met with total rejection 16:28:59 more like "patches welcome" 16:29:00 tromey: did you receive my comment on your blog? 16:29:09 -!- LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-161-202.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:29:19 LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-161-202.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 16:29:23 probably 16:29:25 when did you post it? 16:29:50 One or two days after the blog entry. It never appeared on the web page. 16:30:08 oh, bummer 16:30:09 tromey: it would be better to use news:comp.lang.lisp for this kind of discussion 16:30:51 it all seemed too goofy to post anywhere real :) 16:30:57 There you have it: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127576 16:31:00 sloanr [~user@c-75-72-180-95.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:03 Frozenlock [~user@216.113.73.34] has joined #lisp 16:31:40 mintsoup [~mintsoup@173-164-33-21-colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:43 tromey: I learned yesterday of https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis A C to Lisp compiler. Perhaps it could be completed to compile emacs C code directly in a lisp image, which would give us another path of migration. 16:31:54 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:33 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:33:04 pjb: Did you study it in detail? 16:33:16 Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-121.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:33:28 Vacietis? No, just read the README. Admitedly, it's not complete yet. 16:33:36 interesting 16:33:39 But I find it quite promising. 16:34:03 my project is a little different tho 16:34:15 tromey: sure in the end we'd want only CL code. 16:34:21 the sizeof everything being 1 thing would break a lot of code 16:34:23 vsedach is also the parenscript maintainer 16:34:46 tromey: but if we can compile C code to CL, we can progressively and on a running emacs, translate the C code to CL> 16:34:55 humasect [~humasect@d24-235-167-67.home1.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:00 -!- Frozenlock [~user@216.113.73.34] has left #lisp 16:35:24 oGMo: that'd be the first parts to be converted, the parts assuming/mangling with word sizes. 16:35:47 also the inability to cast char* to other types 16:36:00 I'm not sure it's done a lot in emacs. 16:36:02 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-58-225.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:36:20 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.3.40] has joined #lisp 16:36:39 if the goal is compiling emacs into CL, good luck :P 16:36:59 oGMo: don't deny it would be great to have a C to CL compiler able to do it! 16:37:05 heheh... 16:37:07 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129.97.120.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:37:45 Then for half the C libraries you FFI to, you could instead just compile them in. 16:37:48 I don't deny the greatness of unlikely things, just the likelihood. 16:37:55 -!- jewel [~jewel@196.215.168.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:38:01 it is interesting how some say that javascript is a robust bytecode and vm 16:38:01 Xach: Zeta-C was complete enough. 16:38:19 pjb: Ah, so now a time machine is also required? 16:38:22 isn't zeta-c in the public domain? 16:38:33 Yes. 16:38:45 Just more work on Vacietis. 16:38:58 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:39:10 in my translation I am squashing differences between elisp and CL 16:39:19 not just recompiling the emacs C to CL 16:39:34 what are you translating? very curious, it sounds related to a project i am dreaming about 16:39:34 so it isn't a pure translation but something more custom 16:39:43 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@195.160.233.181] has quit [Quit: egnarts-ms] 16:39:47 I am turning emacs into a CL program 16:40:00 tromey: the point is that in translating you will have a lot of work before running emacs in CL. If we can more easily compile the C to CL, we can have a running emacs in CL, and translate parts of it more leisurely. 16:40:00 how far along are you? 16:40:01 and replacing the elisp implementation with CL 16:40:09 ahh =) isnt there 20k or so lines of C with emacs? 16:40:37 try 300k lines 16:40:49 ahh wow 16:40:58 humasect: 327719 lines in 23.3 exactly *.[hc] 16:41:07 Fade: not very; I have a gcc plugin to do the translation, and it emits some lisp, but there are a lot of missing pieces still 16:41:27 *nod* 16:41:28 tromey: but doing it with gcc like this doesn't give maintainable code. 16:41:31 whoa! how must of that is elisp i wonder? not counting primites 16:41:32 it's an interesting project. 16:41:33 primitives** 16:41:40 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-038.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:41:42 -!- LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-161-202.umd.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:41:56 pjb: why not? 16:42:01 oh, I see what you mena 16:42:04 yeah, that is true 16:42:12 tromey: awesome! a gcc plugin? what about llvm.. ? 16:42:16 in fact the translation is really crazy looking since it operates after the CFG 16:42:25 I don't like LLVM 16:42:43 oh =) how come ? i never looked too deeply at it 16:42:46 and anyway I know gcc and it is easy to write a plugin in python now 16:42:55 mostly personal reasons 16:43:05 it is translating elisp to cl ? 16:43:23 no, the C code 16:43:41 plus some runtime support (still not written) to let you load elisp into the CL environment 16:43:50 ohhh... a compiler from C to lisp effectively? 16:43:58 sort of 16:44:10 yes, in part, but also dropping the bits of the emacs C that implement lisp 16:44:14 and replacing them with CL 16:44:27 lately (this week/month) i have been looking at writing C (and objective-C) with lisp, and also translating elisp into clojure. 16:44:40 yeah =) 16:44:46 pjb: the problem with doing the maintainable approach is that there is still a lot of development on the C code upstream 16:45:01 and I tend to doubt that they would accept a whole replacement :( 16:45:04 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:45:08 -!- blandest [~user@79.112.54.142] has left #lisp 16:45:11 and anyway this is just a silly fun project for me 16:45:42 tromey: if they don't accept the replacement, it means FORK! :-) 16:45:42 hmm. i think it could turn into something very interesting, useful, beneficial, etc 16:45:58 pjb: yeah :) 16:46:38 well, if the elisp all ran at parity with the C version, why not accept? 16:46:49 yeah 16:46:52 unless there were major performance problems with the CL reimplementation. 16:46:58 yeah, it is hard to say 16:47:05 i was considering how hard it would be to write the equivalent of a .so in lisp and have C call it 16:47:05 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:47:12 it'd be nice to get a multithreaded emacs out of it. :) 16:47:29 yeah, multithreaded emacs would be awesome 16:47:34 yeah, that's my other project 16:47:51 Fade: we'd ignore the emacs VM and just compile elisp to CL, so performance should be greater in CL implementations compiling to native code. 16:47:54 I had that all working once 16:47:55 and if it had FFI, even better 16:48:06 well, "working" -- some bogus bits and it really mostly needs to be redone 16:48:19 but I could run multiple threads at least 16:48:53 anyway, elisp is not very different from CL, but still a bit different enough that it is hard to say whether it can be translated efficiently :( 16:48:55 pjb: yeah at that point you could just write a climacs compatibility layer or something 16:48:56 tromey: ideally, I'd replace the buffers abstraction that Emacs uses, and have a wrapper around an "object tree" for compatibility 16:49:02 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:49:13 So I could for example nicely dump a "presentation" (CLIM-style) :D 16:50:01 -!- Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-121.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:50:53 pjb: I was thinking about the things like redisplay which is handled by the C portion of the emacs base. 16:51:09 but you're right. the elisp portions of the code should be faster. 16:51:43 the main speed boost I hope to see is from a better GC 16:52:04 the emacs GC is really bad 16:53:12 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:54:02 turn it off :D 16:54:25 I wonder if you could run emacs under the boehm collector 16:54:42 dlowe: somebody did that a while back but it didn't gain any traction 16:54:53 there's still a branch in the emacs bzr 16:54:59 I think it was never finished 16:55:14 did RMS delegate maintainership of emacs to somebody else? 16:55:17 yeah 16:55:23 what's to finish? you turn off the emacs gc let er rip 16:56:08 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:57:27 LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-161-202.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 16:58:02 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:58:07 chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has joined #lisp 16:58:07 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has quit [Changing host] 16:58:07 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 16:59:07 Yuuhi [benni@p5483AC21.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:14 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-386770.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:06:11 *cmm* finds emacs plenty fast enough as is on modern computers 17:06:23 I must be underutilizing it! 17:06:38 do you use gnus? 17:07:02 yes, but not very heavily. 17:07:33 yeah, it usually isn't too bad 17:07:37 I use wanderlust sometimes, but it's a bit of a pita 17:07:47 it depends on what you use 17:07:48 cmm: it's fast, except that cooperative multiprocessing can get it hung 17:08:00 you can make it crawl a bit if you enable semantic 17:08:14 w3 was slow too. 17:08:16 p_l|backup: never had *that* problem after moving to leafnode :) 17:08:24 I think the next evolution of emacs is going to be emacs-guile 17:08:38 that's what they say, but I really hope not 17:08:39 in a way, emacs cheats by calling external programs written in C. w3m, movemail, etc. 17:08:57 I think it'd be a reasonable direction 17:09:10 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:12 do you use guile? 17:09:23 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:09:31 Yeah, I do actually 17:09:35 I gather guile has become much less of an abortion lately 17:09:35 ah 17:09:52 nod. guile2 is pretty nice 17:09:53 it has recently grown a reasonable compiler, I thought. 17:09:54 -!- LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-161-202.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:10:06 LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-161-202.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 17:10:13 The point is that it can now compile elisp better than emacs 17:10:19 false 17:10:32 dlowe: we recently switched to org-mode for managing tasks. we combine it with rudel and sobby to make sure it's always in sync 17:10:39 it doesn't really implement elisp, it implements "the parts of elisp we could implement without too much trouble" 17:11:10 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:11:45 tromey: the parts of elisp it compiles, it compiles better than emacs ;) 17:11:52 the rest is a SMOP 17:12:03 madnificent: sure. org-mode is great. gnus and wanderlust are still kind of a pain compared to, say, thunderbird 17:12:40 I don't agree 17:12:50 the guile stuff has mostly been sold on the basis of glossing over the hard problems 17:13:10 how did they handle the scoping assumptions in elisp? 17:13:21 fluids 17:13:40 not sure how they handled buffer-locals but there are only so many ways to do it 17:13:50 you need a runtime lookup 17:14:31 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@67.221.70.210] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 17:15:21 bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has joined #lisp 17:15:46 -!- LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-161-202.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:16:26 phao [phao@177.115.31.61] has joined #lisp 17:16:28 tromey: the lower bound for dynamic scoping is noise compared to a bytecode interpreter's dispatch loop. 17:16:47 tromey: right, but you can also do some optimization between two calls to make-variable-buffer-local. 17:18:12 And let's remember that the purpose is to be able to write new emacs code in Common Lisp, therefore not having those problems. 17:18:27 ... the purpose of what? 17:18:39 of rewriting emacs in CL. 17:18:46 -!- splittist [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:18:50 optimizing between calls is an interesting idea 17:18:52 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@swsoft-msk-nat.sw.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:19:12 ohhh. you're that guy 17:19:19 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 17:19:23 yeah 17:19:26 I'm afraid so 17:20:06 tromey: further, users don't often use make-variable-buffer-local (it could break havoc if you called it on random variables). So it's mostly done in files that a compile as a compilation-unit. You can easily compile the code using other variables as normal lexical or special variables without ever having to recompile them. 17:20:17 I suggested crowdsourcing it by delegating the translation function-by-function 17:20:47 ala Distributed Proofreaders 17:20:49 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:20:50 except with code 17:22:06 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:23:02 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 17:23:34 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.147.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:24:49 pjb: it seems like you still have to always implement the general case; since even though the unusual cases are rare, they do sometimes occur, and are part of the language 17:24:56 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:27:51 0f course. 17:31:56 it's hard for me to see how the optimizations could be done then 17:32:14 Hi... I am compiling this program here in ECL, http://pastie.org/pastes/3335704/text 17:32:24 tromey: first, it's for compiled code only. 17:32:47 if I start adding (the fixnum ) for all expressions that return a number in there, I can get it running in 9s... obviously that is a pain... Is there anyway to optimize this? 17:32:51 tromey: you keep for each variable a list of function that uses it. When a variable is made buffer local, you recompile the functions on that list. 17:33:13 Eqv code in scheme/chicken runs this in less than 2s 17:33:44 thanks pjb, I will think about it 17:34:13 pjb, this is the one I mentioned here "I thought it would run faster" yesterday 17:34:44 phao: look at the C compiler's flags as well and add a (safety 0) declaration. I also wouldn't be surprised if MSVC not-quite-C compiler doesn't fare as well as gcc on the code that ecl emits. 17:34:46 dlowe: that made some sense to me. though a default base system which basically works is probably an interesting feat 17:34:47 You can recompile in make-variable-buffer-local, so that people refrain from using it for being costly, or you can just mark the functions to be recompiled later (ie. when the user's doing nothing), and interpreting them in the mean time. 17:35:24 ok. 17:35:42 phao: that was for tromey, sorry. 17:35:43 madnificent: we have climacs 17:36:15 pkhuong, in ECL I cannot set level of safety 17:36:17 the default base system for emacs is rather involved 17:36:19 dlowe: doesn't exactly run everything emacs does, does it? 17:36:28 it seems I just can say "compile for speed" or "compile for space" or ... 17:36:28 phao: it's a standard declaration. 17:36:30 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.147.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:48 strange, doing (declare (safety 0)) gives me an error 17:37:05 phao: so would doing (declare (speed 3)). 17:37:08 yeah, that approach would work ok 17:37:23 dlowe: thing is, if you could start from an emacs system that does what you want it to do, then translating the elisp functions to common lisp, that's not the worst thing to spend time on. at least, i believe it could be crowd-sourced 17:37:38 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:37:48 pkhuong, forget what I said 17:37:52 I was just doing it wrong. 17:38:52 phao: have you read the papers listed in the second section of http://cliki.net/Performance ? 17:39:07 you want both speed and no safety. But, really, that sort of optimisation tends to be compiler specific. 17:39:20 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 17:39:30 pjb, not yet 17:39:31 For instance, on SBCL, you really want to declare tight integer ranges, and let propagation do its job. 17:40:18 phao, (declare (optimize (safety 0)) 17:40:18 pkhuong: i didn't know that made a very big difference 17:40:31 dtw, I did that in the fib function 17:40:44 helped in making the program 1s faster 17:40:59 pkhuong: does declaring it as fixnum work as well, or will making it tighter likely yield more speed gains? 17:41:21 ghoti_ [4c1b035d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.27.3.93] has joined #lisp 17:43:07 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.147.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:43:27 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.147.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 17:43:33 I'd expect (signed-bit 32) to give better results than fixnums. 17:43:47 -!- niko [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 17:44:38 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-386770.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:45:01 pjb: full words, for addition, and across call/ret? not me. 17:45:07 "Unknown type (SIGNED-BIT 32). Assuming it is T." 17:45:22 on 64 bit? 17:45:25 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.105.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:45:29 sorry (signed-byte 32). 17:46:32 phao: at some point you want to consider asking someone who knows, looking for ecl-optimized code and/or looking at the IR, generated C or compiled asm. 17:47:42 yeah... I know very little of all of this stuff right now... I shouldn't even be thinking about optimizations... I just wanted to see how ECL whould behave with that code. 17:47:51 yoklov [~yoklov@67.221.68.174] has joined #lisp 17:47:59 pjb, actually made it twice as slow (tried with unsigned-byte too) 17:49:01 phao: you may have more luck with signed-byte 28 or so, as you may need some space for remembering the type of the number 17:49:11 splittist [~splittist@74-104.198-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:49:26 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-317595.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:49:31 or you could just use fixnums, which size according to the implementation's fixnum instead of having to guess 17:50:07 dlowe: and then i asked, will giving a smaller range than fixnum yield even faster results (on SBCL). what do you think? 17:50:09 on a 64 bit machine, ([un]signed-byte 64) *might* be compiled more easily by CC. 17:50:37 madnificent: I doubt it would be significant 17:50:39 dlowe: boxing decisions are surprisingly hard; sometimes it helps to make some explicitly. 17:50:54 pkhuong: how much more explicit than FIXNUM can you get? 17:50:56 mathrick_ [~mathrick@2.109.39.233] has joined #lisp 17:51:13 dlowe: (unsigned-byte 64), i.e. don't box. 17:51:14 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 17:51:17 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:51:37 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:04 pkhuong: on a 64-bit system. Maybe. 17:52:08 signed-byte 28 and fixnum gave the same results pretty much 17:52:10 how do you know it will not box? once it gets on the heap, it will be boxed, no? 17:52:12 (unsgiend-byte 32) on a 32 bit system. 17:52:38 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:52:58 The CLHS is hilariously circular on the definition of fixnums, but my understanding was that a fixnum was unboxed by definition 17:53:05 there's no maybe about this on SBCL. We know that our representation selection sucks. 17:53:15 that it's the size of integer that Shall Not Be Boxed 17:53:29 dlowe: it's still boxed, but doesn't incur heap allocation. 17:53:35 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:54:03 Ah, I see now. 17:54:25 I was conflating the two *blush* 17:54:38 vairav [~vairav@209.49.23.82] has joined #lisp 17:55:06 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 17:55:38 pkhuong: Is it difficult to improve? 17:56:21 On most CLs, that means that a few low-order bits are used for tagging purposes. On some operations cleverly-chosen tag bits can be ignored (most bit-wise, add/sub), others are helped (array indexing comes to mind), and on more complex operations (shift, byte indexing, mul, div, storing as unboxed values) they're a hindrance. 17:56:56 Odin-: theoretically, NP-hard. 17:57:26 I read something about having entire pages dedicated to types instead of tag bits 17:57:57 that seemed like an interesting way to do things 17:58:12 pkhuong: Improving the current system is? 17:58:14 right, the BIBOP scheme. Probably an awful idea in environments with virtual memory... And, unless your fixnum range is tiny, you'll still want fixnums. 17:58:20 almost like using higher bits as tags 17:58:57 pkhuong: depends on how it's done (the BIBOP scheme, that is) 17:59:08 Btw... the speed of that program with these declarations got to as much as 13s... but if I add (the fixnum ) for all expressions in there, I can make it go to 9s... 17:59:11 ngz [~user@239.242.24.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:12 at least that's what I think - I need to do some experiments on that 17:59:19 why is that? 17:59:49 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:00:20 Odin-: the problem itself. In practice, we can probably relax some constraints and get an improvement in the vast majority of cases after a couple weeks' worth of work. 18:00:28 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:00:29 phao: probably some checks for fixnums that THE disabled 18:00:32 phao: a correct fib needs bignum arithmetic. 18:00:59 pkhuong, sure 18:01:05 phao: there you go. 18:01:11 ? 18:01:36 phao: he's saying that if you make everything a fixnum, it will break as soon as the numbers get big enough 18:01:53 pkhuong: But it's not a priority, I take it? 18:01:57 dlowe, I saw that 18:01:59 Odin-: not for me. 18:02:04 my "?" was about "there you go". 18:02:21 pkhuong: Fair enough. 18:02:57 Odin-: I'm frankly more interested in runtime-specialisation of C code, and the kind of DSL compiler that would enable, these days. 18:03:52 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:03:55 btw, does anyone here knows how do I change the arguments ECL gives to the c compiler? 18:04:23 vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.36.94] has joined #lisp 18:05:23 Odin-: Python is getting *huge*, and the basic design feels somewhat broken nowadays. However, I won't/can't try to tackle that until I'm retired or someone decides to send a lot of money my way. 18:05:33 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:06:20 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.13] has joined #lisp 18:06:33 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-050-171.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:07:00 That won't happen until the exchange rate goes back to normal. 18:07:12 pkhuong: What about the basic design is broken? Information gets stuck in the wrong IR or something? Lack of SSA? 18:07:20 *Xach* remembers the glorious 69-cents-per-CAD days 18:08:09 niko [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has joined #lisp 18:09:00 ah, I was missing context 18:10:07 -!- rmathews [~roshan@59.92.72.134] has quit [Quit: ...] 18:10:29 anyone? 18:12:08 phao: the ecl list might be a good place for such questions 18:13:30 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 18:15:10 dsabanin [~dsabanin@89.22.164.95] has joined #lisp 18:15:20 LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-161-72.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 18:15:58 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:16:52 Xach, ok 18:17:56 Xach: at least the price differential between burlington and montreal almost made sense, back then. 18:20:57 redline6561_: Only in the initial high-level/CL-specific IR: induction instead of co-induction in the analysis phase, transforms fired greedily, no distinction between simplifications versus rewrites that aren't *always* a win nor between inlining that exposes more information versus inlining that hides it behind control flow, work at the variable rather than value level (iow no SSA/CPS/ANF). 18:22:13 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:22:16 Gotcha. 18:22:36 -!- LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-161-72.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:22:41 LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-161-72.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 18:22:52 Well, you never know what a good kickstarter campaign could do... ;P 18:22:56 spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.60.70] has joined #lisp 18:23:24 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.60.70] has left #lisp 18:23:35 osa1 [~sinan@31.140.90.182] has joined #lisp 18:23:51 Ashii [~Ashii@c-0657e255.246-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:23:55 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:24:00 But yeah, I can understand not wanting to sign up to rearchitect Python. 18:24:10 ah yes, and this "executing rewriting rules until fixpoint or I get bored" pseudo-algorithm... That must be the number one cause of slow compilers. 18:26:17 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:27:27 Heh. I saw a neat paper on a pseudo-algorithm for optimizing. Not going to be faster than fixpoint though: http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~rtate/publications/eqsat/ 18:28:29 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.139.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:32:30 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:32:40 -!- drwho [~drwho@152-123-174-206.gci.net] has quit [Quit: bbl] 18:33:19 -!- LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-161-72.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:33:21 LiamH1 [~healy@wireless-206-196-161-72.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 18:33:47 -!- Patterngazer [~Patternga@globulon.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:37:01 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129117245.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 18:37:23 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:37:29 -!- sunmix [~user@223.207.23.221] has left #lisp 18:38:33 redline6561_: at least it's principled; we know what it computes. 18:38:38 -!- lispyone [~lispyone@24.144.25.50] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:38:55 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:39:41 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.78.18] has joined #lisp 18:40:00 -!- LiamH1 [~healy@wireless-206-196-161-72.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:40:05 LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-161-72.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 18:40:31 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:36 -!- Ashii [~Ashii@c-0657e255.246-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:40:42 Ashii [~Ashii@c-0657e255.246-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:42:17 lispyone [~lispyone@24.144.25.50] has joined #lisp 18:43:54 Xach: the swank in quicklisp seems to be incompatible with ccl 1.7: > Error: The function CCL:COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS-USING-CLASSES is predefined in Clozure CL. 18:45:14 pjb: Ouch. Is it fixed in CVS swank? 18:45:52 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@67.221.68.174] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 18:46:35 -!- LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-161-72.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:47:14 checking. 18:48:01 ddp [~ddp@otwbsc02.oceanic.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:23 In CVS, there seems to be other problems: > Error: Reader error: No external symbol named "*SLDB-PRINTER-BINDINGS*" in package # . 18:50:15 *Xach* wonders what's up 18:53:25 G68196 [~toor@41.189.243.129] has joined #lisp 18:57:35 iolib preferable for select() on an fd? 19:00:04 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 19:00:07 Patterngazer [~Patternga@globulon.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:38 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:02:42 iolib does select on a fd. or poll. but nothing more. 19:02:47 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.206.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:03:00 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.206.142] has joined #lisp 19:04:00 that's the main thing i need, select with a timeout, since the library in question provides an fd but no wait-with-timeout 19:04:56 oGMo: iolib allows you to set a timer that calls a function when it expires 19:05:08 although the first line of event-dispatch being (declare (ignore timeout)) is not encouraging ... 19:05:10 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 19:12:03 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-157-189.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 19:12:03 BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:36 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 19:14:58 Xach: *SLDB-PRINTER-BINDINGS* was in my ~/.swank.lisp 19:16:10 pjb: o phew 19:16:43 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@214-106-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:17:21 pjb: how does it work with CVS now? 19:18:36 -!- coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:18:40 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:21:27 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 19:22:35 Fine. 19:23:05 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:23:26 yay 19:23:43 *Xach* is going to make a dist update today (hopefully) 19:24:13 Odin- [~sbkhh@214-106-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is] has joined #lisp 19:25:08 -!- djuber [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:25:15 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-038.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:26:45 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.206.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:27:33 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.206.142] has joined #lisp 19:29:14 -!- G68196 [~toor@41.189.243.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:30:39 G68196 [~toor@cayce.dropsonde.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:52 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-121.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 19:30:59 -!- maxm-- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:31:42 MoALTz 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seconds] 20:13:48 ddp [~ddp@otwbsc02.oceanic.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:57 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@85-132-136-40-static.vivo.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 20:13:59 -!- rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:15:54 ZabaQ1 [~Zaba@85-132-136-40-static.vivo.cz] has joined #lisp 20:16:19 JKiiski [~Adium@178.239.193.194] has joined #lisp 20:20:33 -!- humasect [~humasect@d24-235-167-67.home1.cgocable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:19 pjb: that's not a read eval print loop, that's a read handling-errors do ;-) 20:23:19 pjb: that's actually still pretty nice and simple, so cool 20:27:13 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 20:27:36 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.206.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:28:17 -!- JKiiski [~Adium@178.239.193.194] has left #lisp 20:28:27 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.206.142] has joined #lisp 20:30:39 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@2.109.39.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:33:12 davlap 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[~wildnux@pool-71-252-145-78.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:30:50 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@mobile-198-228-195-219.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:56 -!- jdz [~jdz@host87-21-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:33:01 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:38:51 why does factor show "deamon" "bin" "mail" etc as users when all-user-names is called 21:39:22 the all-user-names in unix.users i mean 21:39:42 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 21:39:59 wups, wrong channel, sorry folks 21:40:34 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177890738.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:41:33 -!- Buglouse [~buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:44:30 -!- kmcorbett [kmcorbett@clozure-116C5B07.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 21:44:30 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@mobile-198-228-195-219.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 21:44:33 I'm doing what is essentially log file analysis with sbcl (analyzing instruction traces from a simulator). It doesn't take long to generate ~10G of trace output (booting a linux kernel to userland, for instance), and processing the log files takes 10s of minutes. Are there any decent profiling tools that can help me tune my code? 21:47:18 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-108-128.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:56 antgreen: sb-sprof 21:48:24 istr there also being an associated slime plugin for sb-sprof, too. 21:48:40 http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/slime_002dsprof.html so there is. 21:48:40 sykopomp: oh, sounds nice 21:49:07 sykopomp: thanks! I'll check it out. 21:49:14 Though I'd imagine sequentially processing 10G of text is probably going to be quite slow 21:49:34 well, that's why you profile :) 21:50:08 i can tell you that for free, hehe 21:51:28 shaunxcode [~chatzilla@c-98-202-35-176.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:54 the log file is really a csv files. one thing I'm doing wrong is using cl-ppcre:split to break out all of the column entries, when I really only need the first two. 21:52:03 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:52:20 I guess I just need to feed a regexp to cl-ppcre that grabs the first two values and tosses the rest. 21:52:46 but I'll try profiling first 21:53:28 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129117245.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:53:28 I wonder how using regexp for parsing CSVs compares to just writing a simple parser that skips everything it doesn't need. 21:54:12 fare-csv is nice 21:54:22 not sure how performant it is though 21:54:51 Farzad [~root@46.225.109.203] has joined #lisp 21:55:21 *madnificent* would try to use fare-csv first too 21:55:46 if it isn't fast enough and you can optimize that, more people may enjoy the benefits 21:55:53 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:55:56 does fare-csv parse incrementally from file streams? 21:56:38 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.73.121] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:25 is there a way to do something like this? (make-instance 'class-a :slot-a (make-instance 'class-b :parent pointer-to-class-a)) 21:57:40 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-60-86.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:57:56 sykopomp: I don't think so. 21:58:30 ok how about signaling a condition from one thread to another? 21:59:56 not possible? 22:00:12 Farzad: sure, it's possible to signal one condition from one thread to another. 22:00:16 but that depends entirely on what you mean. 22:01:10 as far as your first example, no -- considering evaluation order. (let ((parent (make-instance 'parent))) (make-instance 'child :parent parent)) 22:01:29 ok this is the situation, i have a poison thread running on a player, when his hp drops to zero i wanna signal a condition and handle it on the main thread... 22:01:47 that doesn't seem like something I'd signal conditions over. 22:02:02 how would u do it? 22:02:33 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:02:38 Farzad: I think the way you accomplish that is an after method combinator on make-instance and then set the parent reference. If that's what you really want to do 22:02:41 well, for one, I wouldn't even use threads for ongoing events like that. I'd have a priority queue populated with reduce-hp or whatever events that are called sequentially by a single process. 22:03:04 vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 22:03:47 sbryant-, how can i have a refrence to parent in the child's method? 22:04:28 Farzad: but if you still want to got the thread route for regular application logic, I might have something watching a player's hp independently of the single poison thread. 22:05:00 sykopomp, is the whole idea doable anyway, besides my way of doing things? i have no idea what a priority queue is... 22:05:21 Farzad: I can't parse "a poison thread running on a player." What does it mean for a thread to be running on a player? 22:05:22 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-60-86.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:05:59 austinh, well its a list of effects running on threads that effect a single player 22:06:07 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:06:26 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-60-86.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:06:27 Farzad: sounds like a race-condition nightmare 22:06:38 also sorry, I totally misread your first question. (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((parent parent) ...) (setf (slot-a parent) (make-instance 'child :parent parent))) 22:06:44 djuber [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:44 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 22:07:00 (as sbryant- said) 22:07:05 ^ 22:07:07 austinh, no i use a lock just the moment i am doing the actual thing 22:07:11 but that's if you really want to do that 22:08:12 Farzad: priority queues are like queues but their contents can be sorted as they go through. 22:08:24 Farzad: I'm thinking of it at a higher level than locks. Getting order correct in a game loop can be non-trivial. I can't imagine doing it with so many threads affecting state conncurrently. 22:08:51 austinh, hey, are you that POL developer? 22:09:08 certainly sounds like thread overload 22:09:08 phao: No, I don't know what POL is. 22:09:15 Farzad: you can /join #lispgames for more in-depth discussion related to games :) 22:09:17 ah... 22:09:39 austinh, i dont really care about the order, is it important? for things like this? 22:10:00 sykopomp, ok thanks, didn't know that :) 22:10:05 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-106-244.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:10:16 Farzad: Yes, order can be extremely important. 22:10:24 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:12:22 austinh, i dont get it why would it be important when the poison effect reduces hp on a player? sorry if i is stupid :D 22:14:25 Farzad: Usually, you want a definite update order in a game, like GET INPUT, UPDATE OBJECT, UPDATE PHYSICS, DETECT COLLISIONS, RESOLVE COLLISIONS, etc. 22:14:32 I think interrupting the main thread with a condition at a random point of execution is more suspicious. 22:15:31 ok got it thanks 22:15:35 Farzad: If you ignore that, you run into all kinds of issues, like what if the player gets a health bonus in the same step that they collide with an enemy--which comes first? 22:15:55 Farzad: And when do new objects get introduced into the world and when are they removed and things like that. 22:15:56 austinh: that's not necessarily true. You can parallelize a lot of those tasks. Certainly not put things into threads willy-nilly, though :D 22:17:17 -!- vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: vervic] 22:18:08 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:21:06 anyway, how would you do the signaling? just curios 22:21:29 ZMQ 22:21:50 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:22:08 don't take that response seriously though 22:22:14 I haven't even thought about your problem 22:22:29 well i dont know what it means :P 22:22:40 or rabbit or whatever 22:22:51 http://www.zeromq.org/ 22:23:32 I've heard of games splitting off physics, graphics, and AI into separate threads, but I don't think I've ever heard of one splitting up the main game logic loop. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it certainly sounds challenging (if not unnecessary). 22:23:46 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 22:24:22 -!- Frozenlo` [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-182.electronicbox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:24:30 Farzad: I don't believe there is any simple way to have one thread "handle" a condition signaled from another thread. 22:25:14 hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:25:23 this is more like a "learn as you program" thing for me, just makes me think in lisp and bum into problems that make me learn things, and this was one of them 22:25:41 Farzad: you could just not use threads. 22:25:55 'cause you really don't need them for this. 22:26:32 this is not solving the problem :D the problem remains, what if i will have to do it in some future program? 22:26:53 Farzad: No, this is a warning sign that you are barking up the wrong tree. 22:27:26 if you asksed me how to restructure your entire application into a very large TAGBODY, I would probably react similarly. 22:27:33 :( 22:27:34 Farzad: This is not a good use of threads and probably not a good use of conditions, either. 22:27:52 actually, I would probably laugh more if you said something like that. 22:27:56 because that'd be funny 22:28:00 ok, i surrender :D 22:28:43 the one time i played with the idea of tossing conditions through threads was when I was playing with implementing actors and actor linking :) 22:29:06 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:29:12 the results? :P 22:29:25 I never really got around to finishing it, and it was probably misguided anyway. 22:29:50 although passing the condition object around may still be useful for the sake of providing information. 22:30:28 so, you guys suggest i setup a list of functions on each player and run them 1 by 1? 22:30:36 It's one thing to propogate a condition (in some representation) to another thread, but handling it, in the normal sense of handling a condition, is more difficult problem. 22:30:37 info it is... 22:31:15 Farzad: like I said, if you need 'ongoing' things such as poisoning, which involves something happening over time, you have a number of choices. 22:31:23 one of them is a priority queue 22:31:32 another is a state machine 22:31:45 is that an standard facility in lisp or something i have to do myself? 22:32:18 Farzad: There is a wealth of material online for how to setup a game loop. Most of it should apply to Lisp equally well. 22:32:42 -!- Sbidicuda [~antani@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:00 You can even see exactly how ID does it: https://github.com/id-Software 22:33:50 cool! ok, so the actual question now is "how should i transfer info between threads?" 22:33:54 Farzad: I'd say go for the easiest solution. Associate a 'poisoned' object with the player that keeps the current state of the poison effect, and removes itself once it's run its course. You can then put the 0hp check somewhere else in your game loop so you don't have to check it for every single damage event. :) 22:33:58 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-319131.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:34:39 sykopomp, i need to do some rework :X 22:35:42 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:36:03 DataLinkDroid [~David@123.208.110.31] has joined #lisp 22:37:00 Farzad: there's also a lot of options for communication between threads. The only thing they have in common is that no one really agrees on which one is the best :D 22:37:05 with CL-PPCRE, will CREATE-SCANNER create a compiled regex? 22:37:11 If not, how? 22:38:41 sykopomp, this is how its done right now: a thread is created that decfs the player's hp, then sleeps for like 5 seconds, how would i make it happen and still be running it in the main thread? the sleep is the problem 22:39:09 Quadresce: Have you read this? http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/#blabla 4th bullet down. 22:39:13 Farzad: I think regular design stuff is probably better in #lispgames 22:39:19 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:39:27 -!- JKiiski [~jkiiski@178.239.193.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:39:40 ok thanks everyone 22:39:48 austinh, thanks, I missed that 22:40:11 Farzad: I mean, I'm there, and I can answer it there :) 22:40:29 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 22:41:56 ISF [~ivan@201.82.138.222] has joined #lisp 22:43:04 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.206.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:43:43 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:44:26 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.206.142] has joined #lisp 22:48:14 -!- sbryant- is now known as sbryant 22:48:37 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:48:42 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:49:53 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:50:49 drwho [~drwho@152-123-174-206.gci.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:01 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-147-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:52:57 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 22:53:35 Frozenlock [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-182.electronicbox.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:32 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-116.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:55:32 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.45] has joined #lisp 22:57:15 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:42 robbert [~robbert@vhe-410044.sshn.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:38 -!- davlap [~davlap@c-24-147-211-14.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 23:05:21 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:53 Hello, is it common to use the catch and throw operators to throw exceptions that are functions (instead of basic data types)? 23:06:29 chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has joined #lisp 23:06:29 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has quit [Changing host] 23:06:29 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 23:07:48 davlap [~davlap@c-24-147-211-14.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:53 -!- Pomo [~Pomo@192.188.108.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:09:12 robbert: I don't think I've seen that much. 23:11:25 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:28 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:29 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:15:15 I already thought so. I am interested in it because I defined a typed lambda-calculus with catch and throw. 23:15:19 By restricting catch and throw to non-function types various nice properties hold. Hence I wondered whether this restriction is reasonable from a programmer's point of view. 23:18:08 In Common Lisp? 23:19:33 I wonder if Shen is accessible within CL, or if it's only using CL as a base 23:19:41 I hope it's the former 23:19:53 Does anyone know? 23:21:44 Xach: No, I defined the system on paper. 23:22:01 -!- jlaire [~jlaire@80-248-244-51.cust.suomicom.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:22:13 -!- kmcorbett [kmcorbett@clozure-9FE07BBF.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 23:23:01 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-319131.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:23:04 JKiiski [~JKiiski@178.239.193.194] has joined #lisp 23:23:23 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:24:52 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:01 ApeShot [~user@cpe-076-182-098-158.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:13 Any way to get a list of all the packages that currently exist? 23:25:21 In Common Lisp, I should say. 23:26:23 ApeShot: (list-all-packages) 23:26:25 obscurely named 23:26:51 indeed 23:26:58 I just discovered this by guesswork - again I ask before I need to. 23:26:59 Has anyone used Shen? 23:27:00 Thanks 23:27:05 I played with it a bit 23:28:07 -!- kmcorbett [kmcorbett@clozure-9FE07BBF.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 23:30:01 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:31:45 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-146-202-89.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 23:35:16 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:35:49 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:36:22 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:10 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:37:44 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 23:38:29 -!- mintsoup [~mintsoup@173-164-33-21-colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:40:00 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:40:39 jlaire [~jlaire@80-248-244-51.cust.suomicom.fi] has joined #lisp 23:41:37 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:41:46 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:17 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:43:21 dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has joined #lisp 23:43:22 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: a temporal pair-o'-docs!] 23:46:06 LucasCampos [~lucas@186.212.134.226] has joined #lisp 23:46:09 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 23:46:51 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:16 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:48:09 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:35 possibly_sam [3f6b8723@gateway/web/freenode/ip.63.107.135.35] has joined #lisp 23:50:35 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:52:31 hi 23:52:49 snowmanZOMG [~user@c-98-253-56-51.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:25 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.45] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 23:54:51 pspace [~andrew@adsl-76-241-100-169.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:28 -!- davlap [~davlap@c-24-147-211-14.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 23:57:06 -!- possibly_sam [3f6b8723@gateway/web/freenode/ip.63.107.135.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:57:28 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-60-86.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving]