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00:28:03 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:29:30 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:31:09 -!- decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:33:42 that's the CP one by lamar smith right Cosman246 ? 00:34:02 something happen? 00:34:25 Try another channel. 00:36:05 wanderingelf [4817e03b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.59] has joined #lisp 00:36:55 sea4ever [~user@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has joined #lisp 00:37:23 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 00:39:19 fractal_heart [~mzhang@108-66-116-155.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:55 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:43:04 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:58 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.13.76] has joined #lisp 00:46:29 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:46:29 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 00:47:43 -!- sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Quit: sousousou] 00:54:48 -!- ragnul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:54:50 easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 00:55:47 hi 00:58:17 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A966.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:58:38 -!- fractal_heart [~mzhang@108-66-116-155.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:00:07 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:01:38 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.158.49] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:05:26 -!- easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has quit [Quit: Outta here?] 01:12:01 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Offline] 01:16:09 LucasCampos [~lucas@177.17.78.140] has joined #lisp 01:16:38 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 01:17:11 JKiiski [~Adium@178.239.194.192] has joined #lisp 01:18:54 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:20:35 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 01:20:59 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:18 wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:28:59 -!- qelsi [~qelsi@19.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: qelsi] 01:30:22 -!- JKiiski [~Adium@178.239.194.192] has left #lisp 01:30:23 JKiiski [~Adium@178.239.194.192] has joined #lisp 01:31:54 -!- JKiiski [~Adium@178.239.194.192] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:33:20 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 9.0.1/20111220165912]] 01:33:54 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.176] has joined #lisp 01:34:17 Should I use list or vector to play with bits? 01:34:23 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-187-57.hlrn.qwest.net] has left #lisp 01:34:35 integers or vectors. 01:34:56 Faster? 01:35:30 depends what you want to do 01:36:34 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:38:24 Very low level stuff. For instance, if something is true, I might have to change the octet 00010000 to 10000000. 01:38:55 Frozenlo`: yes, but are you passing data from i/o, or do you need a big bitarray? 01:40:52 To be honest I still don't know. What I do know is that my arrays will very probably be much less than 1 Ko 01:43:25 If you want to do I/O, it'll be more easy on a vector of (unsigned-byte 8) or 32. 01:43:37 Otherwise bit-vectors are native types in lisp. 01:44:00 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 01:45:08 etc. 01:45:21 You can even use 2D arrays of bit and do bitmap manipulations. 01:46:30 The problem is that the internal representation is not specified, so you need implementation specific primitives to send those bit-vectors or bit arrays to a display or to a register 01:50:49 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:51:04 nepnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-93-84.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:51:38 Am I on the right path with (make-array 8 :element-type 'bit... or (make-array 8 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))? 01:53:07 JKiiski [~Adium@178.239.194.192] has joined #lisp 01:53:09 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:53:13 -!- JKiiski [~Adium@178.239.194.192] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:53:24 JKiiski [~Adium@178.239.194.192] has joined #lisp 01:53:28 -!- JKiiski [~Adium@178.239.194.192] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:53:38 JKiiski [~Adium@178.239.194.192] has joined #lisp 01:53:42 -!- JKiiski [~Adium@178.239.194.192] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:56:07 lakkris [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:30 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 01:56:33 the second creates an array of 8 bytes (64bits total), the first makes an array of 8 bits 01:56:40 -!- aanandc [~user@14.96.204.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:56:54 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:56 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:56:56 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 01:58:21 -!- coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:58:21 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-236-120.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:58:21 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:58:22 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:43 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:19 hi. would anyone with a usb gamepad with dual analog sticks, want to try out my new lisp game and offer feedback? https://github.com/dto/xalcyon.blocky 02:09:28 superflit [~superflit@71-33-187-57.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:49 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:10:57 msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has joined #lisp 02:14:24 -!- DataLinkDroid is now known as DataLinkAway 02:18:23 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:19:12 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.172.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:19:55 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.49.59.167] has joined #lisp 02:20:49 kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:54 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey_] 02:23:31 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-154-215.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:23:38 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:47 -!- YokYok_ is now known as YokYok 02:30:24 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:32:08 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.49.59.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:33:09 -!- LucasCampos [~lucas@177.17.78.140] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:35:48 gko [~gko@27.240.245.126] has joined #lisp 02:36:55 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-035.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:39:44 I've got a Thrustmaster HOTAS (joystick and gas). Would that be enough axis for that game? Is it configurable enough? 02:40:01 *p_l|backup* is envious of pjb's equipement 02:40:13 people here play flightsims? 02:40:22 I do. 02:40:25 which? 02:40:50 Ralith: I did, from time to time. No hw to play now and no money to fly for real :/ 02:40:54 Lock On Flamming Cliffs 2, and FlightGear. Sometimes MSFS and FF4. 02:40:56 :\ 02:41:05 pjb: no DCS? 02:41:15 No. 02:41:20 cmoore [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:27 *p_l|backup* did some MSFS for airliner stuff, and X-Plane 02:42:06 *Ralith* regularly dicks about in both DCS titles and IL-2 02:42:13 But perhaps I should put DCS A-10 on my buying list. 02:42:20 it's pretty nice. 02:42:42 though you may find the UI a bit awkward without something at least as buttonful as an X52 02:42:50 Actually, I can fly the A-10 in LoFC2. 02:43:05 the A-10C is... a bit more complex. 02:43:37 not to mention that the DCS titles are far less prone to eliding procedural details. 02:43:38 -!- hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:43:49 Yes, I flew the F/A-18 in Hornet on Mac and MacOSX, and the F-14b on FlightGear, but I didn't qualify yet for the F-15 and A-10. 02:44:05 -!- cmoore is now known as hydo 02:44:21 That's good. I like life-like simulation. 02:44:31 yeah, it's the real selling point 02:44:34 ED did an incredible job 02:45:10 though I kind of wish there was an option to hack the inertial guidance system's alignment process 02:45:13 takes 4 minutes :/ 02:45:19 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:45:29 Perhaps in lua? 02:45:48 as far as I've poked about in the lua, it doesn't go that deep 02:46:00 but there's start-on-runway mode if you're going to the point of editing things anyway 02:46:14 gets you a plane fully warmed up 02:46:44 the guys I fly with are generally too lazy to edit every mission we play to our preferences, though 02:56:19 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@2.133.36.211] has joined #lisp 02:56:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@2.133.36.211] has quit [Changing host] 02:56:19 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 02:58:21 -!- gko [~gko@27.240.245.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 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joined #lisp 05:29:45 yates: ltk 05:30:04 there's at least one GTK binding that works 05:30:08 also, commonqt 05:30:52 yates: cl-gtk2 05:31:02 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:39 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:31:52 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 05:32:30 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:32:50 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:33:03 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 05:33:17 ok folks, thanks. let me evaluate these. 05:33:36 what is most popular/prevalent? 05:33:48 (i.e., most likely to continue and be supported) 05:34:14 or is there no clear winner in those respects? 05:34:14 dax [~dax@freenode/staff/dax] has joined #lisp 05:34:41 yates: try ltk first 05:34:53 ok 05:34:58 it's the simplest, and may meet your needs 05:35:23 That said on MS-Windows, since it requires tcl/tk, it might be harder to configure. 05:35:29 I don't know. 05:35:48 pjb: what about under cygwin? 05:36:04 probably equivalent to linux? 05:36:57 so can i use ltk with any standard cl implementation/ 05:36:59 i've used ltk on windows before. it wasn't too hard. a separate tcl/tk install was required, that was the main thing. 05:37:00 ? 05:37:13 e.g., clisp? 05:37:14 but i haven't used it on windows for quite a while 05:37:49 DataLinkDroid: ANSYS simply bundles tcl/tk with its install :) 05:38:03 no need to use cygwin on windows, but you probably could if you wanted to 05:38:13 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:18 DataLinkDroid: even better if it doesn't require cygwin 05:38:20 yates hasn't said what his use case is. 05:38:32 also he was talking about Linux anyway 05:39:00 DataLinkDroid: well, right now, i'd like to build a user interface to a phone and email database, just for me and my wife's own internal use 05:39:16 evening 05:39:51 but if i'm going to go through the process of learning a gui, i figure the more general the better, e.g., there are some potential things at work i might want to apply it to as well 05:40:05 ltk will most likely be fine for that. 05:40:26 ok, thanks 05:40:48 yates, well ltk is pretty general but you wouldn't use it for some types of apps, like graphics intensive games for instance 05:41:48 DataLinkDroid: well that's good to know, but even the potential apps aren't goign to be graphics-intensive 05:42:06 things like automated release, automated regressing testing, etc. 05:42:12 regression 05:42:30 at least as far as i can see... 05:43:25 yeah, ltk looks great. thanks again. 05:43:29 night. 05:43:31 -!- yates [~yates@rrcs-97-79-165-138.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.1] 05:43:33 yates, yes your standard business gui type interface should be okay. but when i used it, the range of widgets was low compared to some other choices. 05:45:37 DataLinkDroid: is it possible to develop something like spreadsheet on ltk? I mean, are there any ways to painting widgets, defining custom events? 05:46:12 What would Barack Obama's diarrhea taste like? 05:46:24 I have this fantasy of a powerful man splashing his extra regular poo into my face! 05:46:29 and Obama is my archetype for that! 05:46:33 What do you all reckon? 05:46:43 asvil, i never got that advanced, but in general you are limited only by tcl/tk itself 05:48:56 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:49:34 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:49:41 ddp [~ddp@otwbsc02.oceanic.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:43 dax: poke 05:52:12 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o slyrus 05:52:17 -!- KuntSlime [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-43-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has been kicked from #lisp by slyrus (KuntSlime) 05:52:18 KuntSlime [RandyJan@burnje.ws] has joined #lisp 05:53:11 -!- KuntSlime [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-43-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has been kicked from #lisp by slyrus 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#lisp 06:53:50 if event-dispatch is waiting forever, is it expected to find the stack pointer at iolib.multiplex::dispatch-fd-events-once? 06:56:11 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.171.248] has quit [Quit: Bye..] 06:58:25 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.171.231] has joined #lisp 06:59:42 vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:30 i would have expected to see harvest-events and epoll-wait 07:01:09 -!- jewel [~jewel@196.215.168.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:05:35 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-169-14-16.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:06:37 -!- vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:11:46 vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:58 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-19.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:13:29 -!- Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:13:48 -!- ddp [~ddp@otwbsc02.oceanic.net] has quit [Quit: ddp] 07:15:02 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:15:57 ddp [~ddp@otwbsc02.oceanic.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:52 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 07:20:56 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.45] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 07:21:38 hmm, the data is in the socket's input buffer, and it's all there, why would this not trigger the io handler to read and event-dispatch to return? 07:23:39 i still don't know whether the library is at fault in the way it's using iolib, or whether iolib itself has a bug 07:23:59 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:24:14 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-rhymmbcwqrgxjbxe] has joined #lisp 07:24:14 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-rhymmbcwqrgxjbxe] has quit [Changing host] 07:24:14 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:24:24 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 07:25:37 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-smxhncdftjdckchs] has joined #lisp 07:25:52 Do you expect edge or level triggering? 07:28:17 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:28:28 echo-are` [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 07:28:42 hkarlen [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has joined #lisp 07:28:59 Part of the problem is I don't know enough. The behavior I'm seeing is inconsistent, it will trigger and return maybe 999/1000 times, but inevitably hang on one call. All calls are the same message and same data. 07:29:34 Single threaded application (stumpwm) 07:29:37 If you don't know what _you_ expect, then that's a problem. :) 07:30:01 Having data in a buffer isn't sufficient for an edge-triggered system. 07:30:11 It should be for a level-triggered system 07:30:30 edge is something like crlf? 07:30:47 An edge trigger is on a state change. 07:31:00 e.g., changing from 'empty' to 'non-empty'. 07:31:55 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-141.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:32:49 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.171.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:34:09 this doesn't seem to be the language that iolib uses, but i suspect it's this lack of understanding that is preventing me from solving the problem 07:34:54 my guess is that the way the dbus library uses iolib is incorrect, but it has resulted in a devilish bug 07:35:57 account add jaber vayiravan@gmail.com 07:36:21 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:36:39 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:37:41 -!- echo-are` is now known as echo-area 07:38:16 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-52-203.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:27 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:39:42 good morning 07:42:14 vantage|work [~chatzilla@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 07:47:24 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.180] has joined #lisp 07:49:27 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 07:56:56 easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 07:58:29 -!- vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:59:18 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 08:01:28 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:01:44 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 08:01:52 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 08:02:13 mishoo_ 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[Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 08:43:05 mishoo [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has joined #lisp 08:44:26 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 08:44:41 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:36 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:45:43 -!- niko [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has quit [Ping timeout: 606 seconds] 08:46:14 mishoo [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has joined #lisp 08:46:55 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 08:46:55 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 08:46:55 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:47:00 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-245.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:48:16 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-245.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:48:29 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-223.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:48:31 besides parenscript , what other CL implementation for javascript exist ? 08:48:51 good morning everyone 08:50:24 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-245.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:50:49 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:51:09 ngz [~user@239.242.24.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:14 kilon: parenscript is not a "cl implementation". to my knowledge, no cl compiler that compiles to javascript exists. 08:51:24 benny [~benny@i577A7A62.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:51:46 H4ns: here it says it is http://common-lisp.net/project/parenscript/ 08:52:21 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 08:52:59 kilon: no, it says that implements an "extended subset", which is not at all the same as a "common lisp implementation". parenscript is a lisp-like language embedded in cl that compiles to javascript. 08:53:40 i see 08:54:01 Regicidio [Regicidio@proud.opwhore.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:06 easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 08:54:09 Zhivago: it is level triggered 08:54:52 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:55:15 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:55:24 well the fact it needs CL implementation to produce JS draw me to the assumption that is CL , plus what that site said, but i should have been more focused on the "subset" part 08:55:38 correction noted 08:55:41 thanks 08:57:09 Harag [~phil@dsl-146-202-89.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:57:57 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 08:58:06 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 08:58:07 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 08:58:20 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:58:29 -!- ysph [~user@adsl-98-89-72-107.mgm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:59:03 -!- Regicidio [Regicidio@proud.opwhore.net] has quit [K-Lined] 08:59:37 mishoo [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has joined #lisp 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[uruguayo@200-40-192-48.montevideo.rr.res.globalwireandcable.com] has joined #lisp 09:25:37 tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.172.57] has joined #lisp 09:25:51 hkarlen` [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has joined #lisp 09:27:20 -!- hkarlen [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:27:25 -!- hkarlen` is now known as hkarlen 09:27:43 blandest [~user@ip4-85-204-33-242.euroweb.ro] has joined #lisp 09:27:45 ce-gars [~ce-gars@c-24-7-169-242.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:42 -!- splittist [~splittist@74-104.198-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: splittist] 09:34:37 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:35:01 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:36:16 lisp newb here. do you think it's worth becoming familiar with lambda calculus to learn lisp, or to simply learn lisp syntax and pick it up as needed? 09:36:53 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 09:37:00 ivan-kan` [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 09:37:02 ce-gars: lambda calculus is not a prerequisite for learning lisp 09:37:06 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-245.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:37:22 -!- foocraft [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:37:23 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:37:26 foocraft [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:16 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-245.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:38:27 paul0 [~paul0@187.112.88.212] has joined #lisp 09:39:00 in fact, despite the propaganda, lisp hasn't got that much to do with lambda calculus 09:39:06 but does learning about it offer a worthwhile advantage over not? 09:39:14 mal: oh i see 09:39:16 ce-gars: not really 09:39:34 ah 09:39:52 -!- kruhft [~user@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:39:58 unless you want to go further into strict functional programming circles that will pontificate about mathematical formalisms a lot 09:41:19 hmm okay. i was just screwing around in my emacs REPL and put (lambda (x) (+ 1 x)), which the interpreter responded to 09:41:23 i have no idea what it does 09:41:32 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-fgltxpmnjjuwztux] has joined #lisp 09:41:40 but i thought lambda calc would have some relevence 09:42:03 guess i need to read around some mroe 09:42:05 more* 09:42:17 About as relevant as learning Turing machines for learning C, IMO 09:42:22 -!- galdor_ [galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 09:42:52 galdor [galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:09 haha thanks arnsholt 09:43:33 which is actually fairly relevant. 09:43:39 but not necessary to write useful code. 09:43:43 oddly enough, my programming languages book talks imperative is to turing as lambda is to functional 09:43:43 vantage|work_ [~chatzilla@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 09:43:43 -!- diginet [~diginet@adsl-69-153-128-17.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:43:48 Probably the odd one out here, and I doubt I know as much lisp as anyone in here, but I "understood" lisp after learning the lambda calculus... 09:44:16 -!- ngz [~user@239.242.24.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44:17 speaking of lambda calculus, I found http://paste.lisp.org/display/126856 is very interesting to read 09:44:25 diginet [~diginet@adsl-69-153-128-17.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:57 I have one of these in emacs lisp 09:45:03 Lisp isn't an implementation of lambda calculus, but that doesn't mean it's entirely irrelevant. 09:45:32 Ralith: Yeah, it's the theoretical underpinnings, but for learning practical programming, nor all that useful (unfortunately perhaps) 09:45:42 JKiiski1 [~Adium@178.239.195.133] has joined #lisp 09:45:52 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joined #lisp 12:54:19 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:55:29 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 12:55:47 -!- kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:58:36 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-209-99.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:59:48 Athas [~athas@77.75.167.170] has joined #lisp 13:01:24 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-249.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:02:42 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:04:24 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:05:20 -!- Athas is now known as jre 13:05:49 -!- jre is now known as Athas 13:09:23 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:10:29 -!- Athas [~athas@77.75.167.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:10:32 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:11:29 -!- r126l [~r126l@martini.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:12:18 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:13:12 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:13:22 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 13:15:05 spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has joined #lisp 13:15:30 I'm giving CLFWM a try, but I'm confused by one of the keybindings 13:15:41 Control L2 13:16:29 alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-249.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:34 I wonder what L2 is supposed to mean, because L and 2 together or one after the other don't work 13:17:00 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 13:19:42 C-l C-2? 13:20:02 n/m :-P 13:20:10 L2 is an X11 keybinding, iirc. 13:20:17 ah 13:20:18 It might be bound to F12 by default. 13:20:34 you're right 13:20:41 hides/unhides an xterm 13:21:09 I think I like this clfswm 13:23:04 thanks for the help 13:23:06 -!- spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has left #lisp 13:24:17 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timeout: 240 seconds] 13:33:01 -!- Athas [~athas@77.75.167.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:33:01 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-209-99.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:34:14 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:36:59 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-169-14-16.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:38:09 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.3.40] has joined #lisp 13:38:42 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:39:30 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:42:27 h0x00 [~Ivoc@91.207.42.52] has joined #lisp 13:43:09 qelsi [~qelsi@19.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:54 is it ok to ask slime questions here? 13:44:25 quazimodo: sure. 13:45:54 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:46:09 so i tried (setq inferior-lisp-program "clisp") as well as (setq inferior-lips-program "/usr/bin/clisp") in my .emacs yet slime (downloaded via apt-get, emacs just *knows* about it without me having to tell it where it is) keeps loading SBCL, which would be ok except sbcl dies in the ass saying package asdf not found 13:46:09 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:46:20 what would you do 13:46:29 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:46:39 -!- paul0 [~paul0@187.112.88.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:46:45 quazimodo: i would remove the slime fetched via your package manager 13:47:00 quazimodo: and all other common lisp software installed via your package manager 13:47:16 then i would follow http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/ 13:47:41 if you don't want to do that, you could check the value of slime-lisp-implementations 13:47:45 paul0 [~paul0@189.26.130.175.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 13:47:48 perhaps setting it to nil would help 13:47:53 hrm 13:47:57 HRMMMM 13:48:25 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:50:42 vantage|work_ [~chatzilla@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 13:50:51 -!- vantage|work [~chatzilla@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:51:01 -!- vantage|work_ is now known as vantage|work 13:51:27 savant_ [~js@67.208.188.68] has joined #lisp 13:52:52 vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-150-095.dsl.sil.at] has joined #lisp 13:54:27 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:56:19 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:59:43 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-209-99.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:43 -!- h0x00 [~Ivoc@91.207.42.52] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:59:57 h0x00 [~Ivoc@91.207.42.52] has joined #lisp 14:00:14 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-209-99.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:00:34 -!- qelsi [~qelsi@19.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:01:08 Xach: ill try your idea in a sec 14:01:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:03:36 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA29829.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:04:45 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-209-99.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:04:49 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:06:31 -!- fmu [UNKNOWN@unaffiliated/fmu] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 14:06:54 rudi [~rudi@1x-193.157.227.245.uio.no] has joined #lisp 14:08:25 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.200.45] has joined #lisp 14:08:29 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:08:35 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:09:38 fmu [UNKNOWN@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 14:10:19 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:10:34 -!- fmu [UNKNOWN@unaffiliated/fmu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:10:41 fmu 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quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:36:02 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:21 r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has joined #lisp 15:36:48 -!- r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has quit [Client Quit] 15:37:58 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-230-66.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:38:37 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:38:55 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-245.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:40:21 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:42:26 'morning 15:42:42 *j_king* waves. 15:42:42 evening 15:44:02 hi 15:44:21 what they said/did 15:45:34 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:46:28 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:47:23 (wave 'Fade) 15:47:33 how goes the hacking? 15:48:41 jewel [~jewel@196.215.168.240] has joined #lisp 15:48:46 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1176449092.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:48:46 chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has joined #lisp 15:48:47 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has quit [Changing host] 15:48:47 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 15:49:06 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1176449092.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:50:03 pretty good. heading into the second phase of our common lisp project... iminently. 15:50:19 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 15:50:24 nice 15:50:44 how has your .io site been going? 15:51:46 side projects stalled atm. been a little flustered, wanting to throw away keyboard. want to get into cdr.io soon 15:51:47 -!- hkarlen [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has left #lisp 15:52:20 heh 15:52:21 i also need to get a replacement cpu fan for my dev box. 15:52:40 that sounds like a small problem. :) 15:53:01 problem is i hate small problems. i'd really like a butler or something. 15:53:04 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-106-244.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:18 i'm a lisp hacker not an errand boy 15:53:20 ;) 15:53:28 -!- ltaoist [~mo@14.113.205.64] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:53:29 *Fade* chuckles 15:53:48 I miss having interns running around doing my bidding 15:54:19 I've always hated the overhead of interns 15:54:55 I hate having to turn them into useful hacks, but for fetching coffee and building computers, they're quite useful. 15:55:43 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:57:26 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:38 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:57:38 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:59:29 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:00:23 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1176449092.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:46 r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has joined #lisp 16:01:57 yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has 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16:09:26 dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 16:11:15 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:24 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:13:29 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:13:55 flip214: sys 60000+400+700+30+8 16:14:01 shaunxcode [~chatzilla@c-98-202-35-176.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:06 flip214: sorry sys 60000+4000+700+30+8 16:14:11 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-smxhncdftjdckchs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:14:26 Posterdati: Please use private messages for that. 16:14:57 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:16:18 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:18:06 r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has joined #lisp 16:18:27 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:19:54 nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-163-191.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:21:53 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:22:37 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-209-99.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:23:53 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:24:43 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:26:31 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:28:16 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:29:57 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:51 -!- peterbb [143027@diamant.ifi.uio.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:30:57 peterbb [143027@diamant.ifi.uio.no] has joined #lisp 16:31:01 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:31:07 dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 16:32:40 cmoore [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:43 -!- hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:32:51 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:33:22 *Neronus* remotely administrates his server with slime and clesh 16:33:49 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-195-199.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 16:33:53 Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.213.7] has joined #lisp 16:35:34 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:52 Hello all. 16:36:02 hey nyef 16:37:08 _schulte_ [~eschulte@206.169.60.164] has joined #lisp 16:37:28 I've been doing a little bit of poking around, and I find that cl-migrations uses CL-SQL. Is there an implementation of migrations that uses postmodern instead, or do I get to write my own? 16:39:16 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:39:39 ah cool, hadn't heard of cl-migrations 16:39:50 -!- Patzy_ [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:40:20 nyef: sounds like something worth building for pomo. 16:40:24 Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:31 bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has joined #lisp 16:40:52 indeed 16:40:59 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:40:59 -!- _mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:41:10 Yuuhi [benni@p5483AE19.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:16 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:41:49 Okay, guess I'll add it to my maintenance queue. 16:42:55 -!- cmoore is now known as hydo 16:43:08 *sykopomp* was thinking of writing something like that for pomo himself. 16:43:53 a previous job had me writing a similar tool. Maybe I should look into whatever Rails has first, though. 16:48:16 Vinnipeg [~zaytsev_k@PPPoE-78-29-119-90.san.ru] has joined #lisp 16:49:01 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Offline] 16:49:48 H4ns: wrt local-nicknames. A proper CCL solution is gonna take a bit more effort, I think, because of the way they optimize package accesses -- it seems to run pretty deep, but I may be wrong. 16:52:42 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:52:54 -!- vantage|work [~chatzilla@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:53:03 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: [ Close the World, Open the nExt ]] 16:54:16 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:55:56 zmv [~zmv@186.204.150.191] has joined #lisp 16:56:22 -!- zmv is now known as Guest63402 16:56:58 -!- Guest63402 is now known as ed_is_better 16:57:11 -!- ed_is_better is now known as notzmv 16:57:42 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.177.184] has joined #lisp 16:58:24 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:58:34 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:59:43 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 17:02:58 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.177.184] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 17:04:44 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:06:36 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:08:16 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:09:58 bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has joined #lisp 17:10:39 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:11:11 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:12:46 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:12:53 mathrick [~mathrick@2.106.13.78] has joined #lisp 17:13:08 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 17:13:29 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:13:37 While I'm thinking about it, does anyone know of a collection of lisp database access patterns? 17:14:31 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 17:14:35 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:14:50 setf, gethash ? 17:15:06 I should be more specific. SQL databases. 17:15:21 oh 17:15:35 you mean like the connection spec ? 17:16:40 I mean like how to design and implement lisp software that uses a SQL database for data storage. 17:17:18 *sykopomp* hasn't seen anything like that. 17:18:36 well, sql is a language, the database has a specific format just i assume 17:18:44 you can wrap sql with lisp 17:19:02 but don't know anything about the rdbm abstraction 17:19:03 I don't know if that's what he refers to. 17:19:06 Yeah, but I mean stuff like using DAOs or an ORM or bare SQL or whatever. 17:19:17 *maxm-* found (not in lisp but in java) that you go one of two ways 17:19:20 and i don't kow anything about the formats either 17:19:35 What the tradeoffs are, how each approach scales, how to convert from one to another if necessary. 17:19:36 either you go full blown OORDBS mapping 17:19:57 nyef: what I found worked for my own project is using DAOs for definitions, and manually writing functional 'accessors' for actual interactions I need to do with the database in s-sql. 17:20:07 or you just use "make statement in a string", prepare, fetch type interface, which is same everywhere from jdbc to perl dbi, to cl-sql I assume 17:20:08 homie: When you don't know anything about a topic, one good option is to shut up. 17:20:10 don't mix the two 17:20:28 *maxm-* had good success with "go full oo mapper" route with hybernate 17:20:34 nyef: https://github.com/sykopomp/sykosomatic/blob/develop/src/vocabulary.lisp this is the pattern that's sort of worked for me, but I figure it's a few levels of further abstraction of being just right. 17:20:37 Xach: go awaaayyyy! lol 17:20:55 but you need to understand oo mapper completely, and its actually more complex, then doing regular sql queries 17:21:02 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:21:07 nyef: https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/b760065b20f08d8b?hl=en is something i've had saved for a while, I think it gives a nice set of ideas. 17:21:15 I found using DAOs for queries a bit annoying and I'm pretty comfortable just cooking together SQL for just what I need. 17:21:24 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:21:26 because many to many and other stuff "seems" simple, but requires thought, and its easy to get trapped into pitfalls and bad design 17:21:58 as for relation to lisp 17:22:17 oh, and DAOs for insertion are nice :S 17:22:20 *maxm-* thought about it, and IMHO in lisp a hybrid approach would work best, where you use cl-store to put your stuff into blobs 17:22:32 and store them in SQL, with some index tables 17:22:46 maxm-: I think if I'm doing blobs, I'd try to use S3. 17:22:52 one can write a framework that automatically does indexing based on CLOS 17:23:13 sykopomp: that does not ring a bell, is it something amazon related? 17:23:38 amazon's storage service 17:24:05 do they have some kind of database type API? 17:24:21 maxm-: zs3 is available for Lisp 17:24:26 you can check that for deets 17:25:00 *maxm-* adds it to his 200+ item "check it out" list 17:25:42 I don't know if I'd use S3 for anything with predictable and/or low latency requirements. 17:26:28 ysph [~user@adsl-065-013-204-170.sip.mgm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:35 Xach: just add a memcached layer! ;) 17:28:09 honestly I don't understand why cl-store does not get much love 17:28:28 maxm-: Give it some love if you love it! 17:28:35 I like it. Worked well for what I needed. 17:28:48 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:28:54 *maxm-* found it extremely well written and awesome.. I had used it too basically save multi-gigabyte data structures full of my various clos objects, structures, and random crap, and it stored and loaded them fast and without any problems 17:29:23 Zhivago: Thanks for your input last night. I modified the lib to use edge triggered epoll, exit-when-empty, and self-removing handlers, and it's working so far. 17:30:21 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:30:31 maxm-: In the past I would succumb to the urge to write partial ad-hoc serialization stuff and after trying cl-store and having it Just Work, I'm likely to use it instead. 17:30:56 Okay, I clearly have a bit to think about on how to manage DB access on my server. Thanks, Xach and sykopomp, for the links. (-: 17:31:08 I kind of life fasls for serialisation, fwiw. 17:32:03 *like, even. 17:33:53 pkhuong: I think I would like it if there was a simplifying wrapper around it. I know the general idea but don't want to have to recreate it each time... 17:34:25 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.215.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:35:02 Xach: it's probably a bad idea if you need it for medium or long-term storage. 17:35:46 pspace [~andrew@csu-137-148-234-136.csuohio.edu] has joined #lisp 17:35:49 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:36:08 or plan to upgrade your sbcl ever. 17:36:25 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:36:27 dlowe: that could actually be fixed. 17:37:23 We're just being paranoid about fasl compatibility, but if you know what you're doing... (which is admittedly easier when your fasls are mostly data, rather than mostly code) 17:38:14 ... oh, right. I was going to look into completely changing the fasl format at some point, wasn't I? 17:38:49 yes, you were. It'd make serialising via fasls even more attractive for what it's good at! 17:38:49 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.206.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:39:04 Mmm. 17:39:11 -!- splittist [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:39:23 So many neat projects, so much time spent on work stuff instead. 17:40:05 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:40:17 vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.36.94] has joined #lisp 17:40:17 I used it a couple times when I had a couple GB of data in a bunch of unboxed vectors (mostly double floats). Any non-binary serialisation scheme was clearly insane, and I didn't feel like doing it with mmap when fasls were only 20 LOC and good enough. 17:42:48 pnq [~nick@AC82771A.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:42:49 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:11 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 17:43:20 saint_cypher [~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has joined #lisp 17:43:38 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:44:18 Does hunchentoot support ipv6? 17:44:38 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 17:45:06 -!- Vinnipeg [~zaytsev_k@PPPoE-78-29-119-90.san.ru] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 17:45:19 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:46:29 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.108] has joined #lisp 17:46:33 are there any writeups on mmap for byte based custom serialization schemes? 17:46:49 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-fgltxpmnjjuwztux] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:47:16 madnificent: there's my heap package. 17:47:40 https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/trees/master/common-lisp/heap 17:47:59 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-80-89.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:50:37 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 17:51:10 -!- drwho [~drwho@152-123-174-206.gci.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:51:16 well, it's a start. but i obviously hate and mistrust the license ;-) 17:52:03 pjb: thanks though 17:52:27 -!- naryl [~weechat@citadel.niflheim.info] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 17:52:48 naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has joined #lisp 17:52:49 pjb: not to be an ass, but the highlighting is odd, don't know if you can or should try to fix it 17:53:37 -!- sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 17:54:58 It's gitorious. 17:57:41 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:58:57 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:05 Cosman246 [~user@D-173-250-188-128.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 17:59:20 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:01:22 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:04:25 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:05:28 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:05:32 -!- jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:06:45 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:49 -!- ch077179_ [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:08:34 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 18:08:50 jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has joined #lisp 18:10:48 vairav [~vairav@209.49.23.82] has joined #lisp 18:13:20 vantage|2 [~vantage@109.131.36.94] has joined #lisp 18:13:35 -!- vantage|2 [~vantage@109.131.36.94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:16:52 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:17:04 Shaftoe [~Moe111@modemcable037.54-22-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:17:17 ddp [~ddp@otwbsc02.oceanic.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:44 I quietly roll my eyes at any library that upgrades their default multi threading behaviour from a dozen threads to 120 worker threads 18:18:10 Perhaps the typical usage changed. 18:18:24 I generally roll my eyes at anyone who thinks 120 worker threads is a sensible value 18:18:27 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:18:45 Maybe they were using a 4000 core machine :D 18:18:56 yeah. 18:19:08 we went from pentium 5's to cell super clusters. 18:19:10 Kryztof [~user@193.128.116.237] has joined #lisp 18:19:25 Shaftoe: are the workers doing blocking I/O? 18:20:14 p_l: not in a way that warrants 120 threads. 18:20:23 I'm more interested in the loud eyerolls. 18:20:44 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@206.169.60.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:20:54 =) I'm just trying not to ruffle feathers because I know threading is a contentious topic (no pun intended) 18:21:32 but seriously, I can't think of real world applications where 120 threads is a sensible default. 18:22:01 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128175100.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 18:22:17 Shaftoe: I can think of ones where it's good enough. 18:22:25 ^^ 18:22:29 pkhuong: do tell 18:22:39 I'm genuinely curious 18:22:47 Shaftoe: the later sparc processors could handle what? 64 or 120 threads? that in combination with io limitation could warrant it. 18:22:52 like p_l|backup said, maybe they're all stuck on blocking IO. 18:23:00 Your OS's scheduler doesn't have to suck. 18:23:56 pkhuong: you know of algorithms that will eat 100 different parts of a problem set simultaneously and do it better than making queues and allocating threads based on CPU counts? 18:24:05 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 18:24:17 threads do have costs. 18:24:24 Shaftoe: yes. Talking to 120 clients. 18:24:29 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:25:03 and you think that'll be better than queueing? 18:25:10 osa1 [~sinan@31.140.4.253] has joined #lisp 18:25:24 Not every protocol is stateless. 18:25:42 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:25:57 that right there is a good point. 18:27:24 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:31:14 -!- Cosman246 [~user@D-173-250-188-128.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:32:17 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:39 -!- BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:33:09 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:33:14 -!- hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: hydo] 18:34:08 tromey [~tromey@71-208-30-70.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:34 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:34:34 -!- Kryztof [~user@193.128.116.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:36:20 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:37:55 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-049.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:39:43 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:40:18 i've seen renderfarm management systems which make good use of more than 120 threads. 18:41:07 because, as pkhuong pointed out, each one tracked a lot of state about a specific asset. 18:41:33 BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:19 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:42:39 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@2.106.13.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:44:13 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:44:41 -!- pnq [~nick@AC82771A.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:45:29 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:48:04 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:48:58 -!- redrover [~oconnor@71-34-158-7.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:49:01 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 18:49:42 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:56 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:54:13 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:54:46 Is there a way to locate a file relative to the source code file you are executing? I've got a config file that sits either at the top level of my project, or someplace like /etc/config. I'd like to be able to do something like: (read "../config") in my Lisp source. 18:55:11 The situation is complex. 18:55:28 THere's *load-pathname* and *compile-file-pathname* and their truename variants. 18:56:04 But consider that once compiled with asdf, the fasl is loaded from a different directory ~/.cache/common-lisp/ where your config won't be. 18:56:12 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:56:22 okay, I'll look there. was hoping for something simple like the whole Python __name__ thing, though that is not a really good way to do it. 18:56:31 SurlyFrog: I have a link for you. 18:56:31 good point on the location of the fasl 18:56:48 http://xach.livejournal.com/294639.html - read also the comments 18:57:27 Xach: thanks, I'll give it a read. If nothing else, I'll just default to /etc/conf and an environment variable override for development. 18:58:01 (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :name "myapp" :type "config") (user-homedir-pathmame)) 19:00:25 pjb: that would also work for me. thanks for the suggestion. 19:01:14 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:01:22 espadrine [~thaddee_t@acces2477.res.insa-lyon.fr] has joined #lisp 19:02:01 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:02:01 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:02:01 -!- felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:02:01 -!- jlaire [~jlaire@80-248-244-51.cust.suomicom.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:02:01 -!- Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:02:01 -!- howeyc [~howeyc@2607:f2f8:a958::2] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:02:01 -!- dsp_ [~tt@lebesgue.cowpig.ca] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:02:01 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-177-193-169.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:02:01 -!- SpitfireWP [spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:02:01 -!- anthracite [anthracite@pdpc/supporter/active/anthracite] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:02:01 -!- r_takaishi [~r_takaish@www5072u.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:02:01 -!- nicdev_ [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:02:01 -!- g000001 [~mc@www14045u.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:02:01 -!- Utkarsh [~quassel@li118-209.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:02:01 -!- pokes [~pp@69.164.222.10] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:02:01 -!- daedric [~daedric@2a01:e0b:1000:21:baac:6fff:fe99:7ada] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:02:01 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:02:01 -!- weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:02:06 pokes [~pp@69.164.222.10] has joined #lisp 19:02:07 g000001 [~mc@www14045u.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:02:09 howeyc [~howeyc@2607:f2f8:a958::2] has joined #lisp 19:02:09 dsp_ [~tt@lebesgue.cowpig.ca] has joined #lisp 19:02:10 nicdev_ [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has joined #lisp 19:02:16 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-177-193-169.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:21 daedric [~daedric@2a01:e0b:1000:21:baac:6fff:fe99:7ada] has joined #lisp 19:02:21 r_takaishi [~r_takaish@www5072u.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:03:06 Utkarsh [~quassel@li118-209.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 19:03:20 dlowe [dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has joined #lisp 19:04:57 anthracite [anthracite@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:eaaa] has joined #lisp 19:06:37 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 19:07:07 Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 19:07:29 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:07:36 SpitfireWP [spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 19:08:15 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 19:09:14 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:09:46 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:10:03 If a function is defined a (defun foo bar &rest args &key baz qud), is there an easy way to build a plist for the values of baz and qud and then call the function with that expanded? Meaning, is there a way to explode (:baz baz_value :qud qud_value)? 19:11:32 SurlyFrog: don't know whether I understand you ... apply seems to fit what you want 19:11:43 SurlyFrog: args will contain a plist, not an alist. args may contain '(:baz "baaaz" :qud "qududuu") 19:11:52 that's the one I was trying to remember... 19:11:56 thanks flip214 19:11:58 ah 19:11:59 felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has joined #lisp 19:12:26 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 19:12:30 I'm new enough at this that I've read so much that I seem to remember that something does what I want it to, but can't remember what the thing is :-) 19:13:33 SurlyFrog: hey, flip214 understood the question. and it's probably better to learn and have issues remembering, than not learning at all 19:13:54 true :-) 19:14:42 -!- ngz [~user@239.242.24.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:40 shotaboi [shotaboi@sh3lls.ca] has joined #lisp 19:16:34 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 19:17:07 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 19:17:08 weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has joined #lisp 19:17:11 jlaire [~jlaire@80-248-244-51.cust.suomicom.fi] has joined #lisp 19:20:19 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:39 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:24:16 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:27:44 maxm-- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 19:27:49 francogrex [~user@109.130.90.222] has joined #lisp 19:27:55 what is this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127543 ? 19:28:12 -!- maxm- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28:17 francogrex: a URL 19:28:42 rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has joined #lisp 19:28:43 hah yeah, but what's in it? 19:29:03 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-189287.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:29:12 typing / gives something new to me 19:29:19 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_sl_sls.htm 19:29:42 -!- vh0st is now known as vhost- 19:30:02 -!- vhost- [~vhost@robodance.kyleterry.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:30:02 vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has joined #lisp 19:30:08 hmm 19:30:25 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 19:31:36 francogrex: see also + ++ +++ * ** *** - 19:35:15 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:35:21 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:37:15 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:39:14 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 19:39:15 gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-dbigdgaulgdgjphk] has joined #lisp 19:39:30 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:41:00 -!- mikekelly [~mike@ks391369.kimsufi.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:41:00 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:41:00 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:41:15 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 19:41:43 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081ED0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:47 interesting, I like / the best 19:43:50 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:45:01 I think # also has a certain meaning to repeat a last array or something, i've seen incredibmly short lisp programs using these symbols 19:47:06 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:28 #\# is a dispatching macro character. It is also used in output to denote elided data. 19:48:03 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:48:03 ooooh, so you can just use slime-repl as a calculator then 19:48:16 just (car /) to use the previous result? 19:48:17 -!- sellout is now known as FlowersByIrene 19:48:34 (car /) = * 19:48:39 -!- FlowersByIrene is now known as sellout 19:48:44 (+ 1 2) RET (* * *) RET 19:49:12 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:49:42 pjb: So, desktop environments are so bloated for shipping with calculator apps then. 19:49:51 You can just use emacs+slime-repl 19:50:20 If you're in emacs, you can M-x calc RET too. 19:50:29 bloat :-P 19:50:38 or just M-: (+ 1 2) RET but M-: (/ 3 2) RET is bugged. 19:50:41 Well, actually it's RPN so 19:50:49 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: +++ATH0] 19:51:21 -!- oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.245] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:51:22 hmm 19:51:28 C-x k doesn't work to close the calculator 19:51:40 q 19:51:54 oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.245] has joined #lisp 19:52:28 pkhuong: nope, it just hides it 19:52:31 it's still running 19:53:53 -!- devhost [~devhost@174.143.148.179] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:54:30 I prefer the simple calculator 19:55:08 M-x calculator 19:55:25 SegFault1X|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 19:55:34 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:55:53 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:57:21 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:59:29 -!- jewel [~jewel@196.215.168.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:59:34 Aethaeryn: I wouldn't say that it's "running." emacs is single threaded, if it's not responding to your input or frozen, nothing's running. 20:00:49 zgr [~zgrge@79.165.25.46] has joined #lisp 20:00:58 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.90.222] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:01:22 phao [phao@177.115.7.205] has joined #lisp 20:01:49 I imagine this is a long shot (and not that I wanna do it), but is it possible to implement C on top of lisp through macros? 20:03:14 -!- zgr [~zgrge@79.165.25.46] has left #lisp 20:03:39 phao: maybe not through macros, but otherwise nothing prevents it. There's already a fortran to common lisp compiler, and there used to be a C to lispy IR compiler on symbolics machines. 20:03:41 -!- niko [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has quit [Quit: http://freenode.net] 20:04:21 well, nothing except usefulness. 20:04:44 =) 20:04:54 bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:2420:ea0:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has joined #lisp 20:05:08 niko [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has joined #lisp 20:05:57 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:06:08 -!- SegFault1X|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:07:12 -!- pspace [~andrew@csu-137-148-234-136.csuohio.edu] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:07:17 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 20:08:06 phao: https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis 20:12:07 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:13 phao: have a look at Zeta-C. Only the backend would have to be updated to target CL instead of Lisp Machine. 20:13:02 Vacietis is inspired by Zeta-C 20:14:10 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 20:14:44 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:15:29 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:56 gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has joined #lisp 20:16:23 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 20:17:37 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-dbigdgaulgdgjphk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:18:42 Can Vacietis deal with emacs sources? 20:18:47 That'd be great. 20:23:01 :) twist of fate for emacs editor: initially written on lisp, then rewritten core to c, and finally interpreted by common lisp. 20:23:37 asvil: except it wasn't written initially in Lisp 20:23:40 C was a strategic choice in 1980's when there weren't a CL compiler on each unix box. 20:23:49 But nowadays, there are half a dozen CL compilers on unix boxes. 20:23:49 is part of word in "emacs" mean project MAC in MIT? 20:23:54 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:59 asvil: no, it's "Editor MACroS" 20:24:05 sorry, part of project MAC 20:24:08 ok, thanks 20:24:12 No, it's Editing MACroS of TECO. 20:24:15 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:25:25 -!- osa1 [~sinan@31.140.4.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:26:34 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:51 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:27:19 totzeit [~kirkwood@64.9.146.153] has joined #lisp 20:28:20 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:28:47 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 20:30:29 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 20:31:29 Cosman246 [~user@D-69-91-153-230.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 20:31:42 -!- rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:31:50 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:32:01 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:03 mike [~mike@ks391369.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 20:35:21 -!- mike is now known as Guest65872 20:35:45 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.158.68.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:36:09 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:36:39 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 20:38:26 theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.158.68.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:55 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:41:41 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 20:42:37 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.81.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:43:14 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:43:53 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.86.176] has joined #lisp 20:44:03 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:45:43 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 20:49:12 eui [~eui@164.136.1.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:19 salut 20:49:41 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081ED0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:49:43 qqun peut m'aider sur une fct recursive en lisp 20:51:00 someone can help me, for a fonction in lisp 20:51:47 eui: It's best to just ask a question, than to ask for help in general. 20:52:03 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.231] has joined #lisp 20:52:06 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:52:14 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:54:11 EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 20:54:59 I am French, It's because I try to write a recursive fct in lisp, but she doesn't work 20:55:01 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:55:20 can you look and help me ? 20:55:33 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:35 eui: You'll have to give more information. You can use http://paste.lisp.org/new/ to show your code. 20:56:01 ch077179_ [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 20:56:05 ok here is my fct : http://pastebin.com/48GDFW5b 20:57:02 -!- ch077179_ [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Client Quit] 20:57:30 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 20:58:36 eui: Your parens in the EQUAL clause are mis-aligned. 20:59:24 ok 21:00:11 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:00:42 it's enought, you don't see another probleme 21:02:28 No, there is more wrong than that. 21:02:46 can't see how that even compiles 21:02:55 Why are you using STRING? Why are you comparing a CHAR and a STRING using EQUAL? 21:03:44 How ?? 21:04:07 eui: Look up in the documentation what those functions do. 21:04:25 (equal (char (string (car liste)) 0) (string x)) 21:04:28 that line 21:04:59 my function return nil 21:05:08 pnq [~nick@AC82E2A6.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:05:27 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-146-202-89.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:06:37 -!- nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-163-191.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:17 I'm surprised it gets that far. 21:07:22 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:08:07 eui: Why are you writing a Lisp program? 21:08:28 drwho [~drwho@152-123-174-206.gci.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:50 for learn lisp 21:09:51 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.171.231] has joined #lisp 21:10:32 eui: Why are you learning Lisp? What are you using to learn it? (other than this channel) 21:11:08 for my job 21:11:22 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:37 momo-reina [~user@p5029-ipbfp1301osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:12:12 I think this channel is for programme in Lisp, I am wrong 21:12:43 eui: It is, but it is not a good place for a tutorial introduction, and the primary language is English. 21:12:54 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:14:09 -!- flip214 is now known as flip213 21:14:17 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-195-199.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:22 I don't understand, what's the problem ? I have done somethings who are wrong ? 21:14:32 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:14:43 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 21:15:34 -!- shaunxcode [~chatzilla@c-98-202-35-176.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:15:54 Fade: are you going to the toronto lisp meeting? 21:16:27 I haven't been yet, but I've been meaning to go 21:16:59 mensch [~mensch@c-174-62-210-182.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:27 tomorrow I see. 21:17:53 ah, 6pm. that's why I keep putting it off. I'm rarely finished at the office before 7. :/ 21:18:05 -!- eui [~eui@164.136.1.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: IRC webchat at http://irc2go.com/] 21:18:54 eui: You are obviously very new to Lisp. You would be better served by reading a book on Lisp, than by posting terrible code on #lisp and asking people to correct it for you. 21:19:19 I will try to make it. 21:19:25 Fade: I can't make it :( 21:19:46 well, if you're in Maine, that is unsurprising. 21:20:01 It still pains me that I can't make it to more meetings. 21:20:45 can anyone recommend a package/library for ncurses? i know of cl-charms but there is no documentation 21:21:47 well, I've been meaning to go, because walled.net is looking to start offering a few new VPS options, with lisp support being one of them. 21:22:04 it'd be nice to talk to other lispers about what they'd like to see in such a thing. 21:22:20 momo-reina: I've been interested in ncurses, too, but I've never seen any indication that anyone has worked in that direction for some time. 21:22:42 Buglouse [~buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:22:49 cl-ncurses is in quicklisp 21:22:54 so we know it at least compiles. 21:23:50 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:24:58 hefner: LJ's syndication (Atom and rss) both show the video as so I can't fix it on the Planet Lisp side. 21:25:13 Or maybe I can, but it is too much work in the short term. 21:25:24 there's an issue with cl-ncurses on some systems, claiming that libncurses.so is "too short", I didn't end up tracking down what caused it 21:26:05 sloanr [~user@hobbes.space.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 21:26:26 Xach: oh. okay, no matter. 21:26:42 -!- jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:26:42 -!- ghoti- [4c1b035d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.27.3.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:27:39 austinh: oh that's a shame, would it just be better to go straight for an x-window gui? 21:28:04 Fade: isn't cl-ncurses abandonware? i think the latest update was in 2007 or so... 21:28:18 momo-reina: I don't know. HTML interfaces seem to be pretty popular these days. That's probably what I'd do. 21:28:32 if it uses cffi, it might be hard to become out of sync ;) 21:28:34 it's possible it just got to the point where it pretty much works; I haven't personally used it. 21:29:21 *hefner* wonders if we still need fancy terminal libraries, or if you can get by well enough with ANSI codes and a small quirks list for the half dozen terminals people still use 21:29:44 but my vt52! 21:30:58 My tektronix's fancy graphics are getting rusty too. 21:31:22 austinh: yeah i guess that works too, it's a solo project so i thought that going the whole webapp route was a bit of an overkill 21:31:40 momo-reina: I feel your pain. 21:32:04 lispm [~lispm@g224044219.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:32:36 thanks for the comments guys, have to go to work, see you later! 21:32:47 -!- momo-reina [~user@p5029-ipbfp1301osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:44 devhost [~devhost@174.143.148.179] has joined #lisp 21:37:49 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.171.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:39:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-141.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:56 I was wondering if anyone could explain this to me: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127546 21:41:44 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 21:42:46 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:11 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.158.68.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:43:39 theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.158.68.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:46 wtf is a tenured symbol? 21:45:00 I mean quick googling does not explain :-) 21:45:09 maxm--: probably one that lives in tenured generation 21:45:20 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-129-110.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:47:08 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-245.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:47:08 my only idea about his problem is that defparameter probably gets 'pkg:type-name at compile time and somehow package gets redefined before then 21:47:19 I mean before open-store is called 21:49:18 I think SurlyFrog means "interned". 21:49:23 SurlyFrog: is it sbcl? coz I don't see it how it can happen under sbcl 21:49:23 -!- phao [phao@177.115.7.205] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:50:09 that's Allegro, isn't it? 21:50:31 -!- dax [~dax@freenode/staff/dax] has left #lisp 21:50:38 basically it has to do with compile/load time thing 21:50:53 wrap defparameter into (eval-always) and imho it will fix it 21:52:50 -!- lispm [~lispm@g224044219.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 21:53:17 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:53:57 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 21:55:01 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:59:08 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-189287.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:07 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:00:18 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:00:35 DataLinkDroid [~David@110.140.66.49] has joined #lisp 22:00:52 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:52 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:02:24 Hi guys, sorry.as soon as I hit send, my kid started screaming from downstairs. 22:02:35 It's not SBCL, it's Franz Allegro CL 22:02:46 ngz [~user@239.242.24.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:49 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:03:02 The "tenured symbol" is a quote directly from emacs/slime (describe) 22:05:31 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.36.94] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 22:05:40 Kron [~Kron@69.166.23.81] has joined #lisp 22:06:32 I think I'll just ignore the damn thing. it's cost me an hour or so already. I was convinced that I was doing something wrong, but could *not* figure out what it might be.finally, brute forcing all of the arguments showed me that one was the issue. 22:06:49 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:48 -!- brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 22:08:06 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.213.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:08:07 shaunxcode [~chatzilla@c-98-202-35-176.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:44 Oh, I probably should mention that this is Franz lisp in "modern" mode (which is case sensitive, which is what they recommend for working with their AllegroGraph database). So maybe "tenured" has something to do with that... 22:09:04 -!- p_l|backup [~pl@089-101-208053.ntlworld.ie] has quit [Quit: reboot irssi] 22:09:59 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: zz] 22:11:20 p_l|backup [~pl@089-101-208053.ntlworld.ie] has joined #lisp 22:11:57 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-106-244.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:13:11 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:48 Is my slime history in a file somewhere? 22:14:44 sellout: slime-repl-history-file 22:15:05 ysph: Damn, just found that in apropos myself. 22:16:12 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:18:29 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 22:18:44 What I _really_ wanted was slime-repl-previous-matching-input, which keybinding was shadowed by paredit. 22:20:09 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:23:38 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-50-021.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23:49 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:26:12 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:26:29 maximus_ [~maximus@71-217-25-20.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:53 pjb: hi 22:31:18 francogrex [~user@109.130.90.222] has joined #lisp 22:31:24 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.90.222] has quit [Client Quit] 22:31:50 congrats guys, while I was looking elsewhere, you frightned a newbie. You could have told him of http://cliki.net an news:fr.comp.lang.lisp ! 22:33:09 phao [phao@187.91.243.138] has joined #lisp 22:33:57 -!- sloanr [~user@hobbes.space.umn.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:34:05 :( 22:34:10 SurlyFrog: giving us the error message would help. 22:34:32 SurlyFrog: in last resort, you could use (load-time-value (intern "TYPE-NAME" "PKG")) 22:34:42 in the defparameter. 22:35:04 pjb: it's an error that a method can't be found for the generic function open-store. 22:35:07 Posterdati: Hi! 22:35:21 The defparameter resolves fine. It's all about calling open-store that fails. 22:35:21 So it seems it has nothing to do with your :type argument! 22:35:46 The only dispatching parameter possible for open-store is the string naming the store. 22:35:57 Well, nodoing anything with the :type argument except explicitly using it causes the issue. 22:35:59 Perhaps it doesn't take a string? 22:36:06 it takes a string... 22:36:23 Then it's not about the generic function open-store. 22:36:38 There can be no dispatching on &rest &optional or &key parameters. 22:36:54 More info is needed. 22:37:05 Check your package definitions. 22:37:10 pjb: who's going to frighten who? 22:37:26 Posterdati: mostly Xach frightened eui. 22:37:40 pjb: ah the Sheriff 22:37:42 I can dump the whole thing if you want... 22:37:45 between <21:49:06> and <22:17:06> 22:38:07 SurlyFrog: if it's not too big. 22:38:39 it's sort of big.but I'll run it down real quick. I'd just like to get some confirmation that I'm not a complete idiot. 22:40:00 pjb: eui has quit (Quit: IRC webchat at http://irc2go.com/) 22:40:18 pjb: what is http://irc2go.com/ 22:41:17 pjb: it seems a site for irc tourists 22:42:36 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-50-021.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:48 pjb: did you mean eui, as the frightened newbie 22:43:00 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 22:43:05 pjb: the question is: is #lisp a channel to help, among other things, newbies to better understand Lisp or is it a channel for professional Lispers only? 22:43:22 ... what did you guys did? 22:44:10 pjb: oh just read the rest of the backlog, yeah eui 22:44:41 Posterdati: sometimes the best help we can provide is a strong suggestion to grab a book. 22:44:49 I could not see how the code he pasted would even compile 22:46:09 Posterdati: are you advocating that #lisp be only for pro lispers? 22:46:16 pkhuong: yes, I've to tell the truth you were/are ALL kind with me. Suggests book is a good thing I cannot deny that, but sometimes people feel better to listen from a real expert... 22:46:28 Guthur: I cannot really tell 22:47:10 Guthur: yes, eui. 22:47:47 in general I have found #lisp relatively receptive to new lispers 22:47:48 Guthur: I don't want to throw a stupid flame now... 22:47:48 jack_rabbit [~Jack@mobile-250-234.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 22:47:52 Posterdati: help is an important part of #lisp 22:48:22 it has it's moments though 22:48:24 Guthur: that's ok. But mentionning cliki or fr.comp.lang.lisp would have been helpful too. 22:48:38 *p_l|backup* feels sorry that he couldn't help, but he was fighting utf8 issues 22:48:39 Guthur: yes ok, you answered my qustion then 22:49:51 -!- bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has left #lisp 22:50:04 -!- Cosman246 [~user@D-69-91-153-230.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:50:23 personally I was too tired to attempt helping, the code had just way too many issues 22:50:31 the fact is, there is a lot of good ressources and there is no point to repeat them on IRC. But a lof of people don't to read « because it's boring and to slow » 22:50:40 *Guthur* should have gentled prodded towards some starter lisp stuff 22:50:41 don't want to... 22:50:52 generally #lisp help is most beneficial for someone who knows programming, and trying to learn lisp 22:51:30 but there are some people coming in, who obviously don't know any programming, ie they have no idea what a variable is, or what recursion is, and its kind of hard to help, since gap is just too big 22:52:10 its like going into #math for help, and not knowing what multiplication or division is 22:52:11 maxm--: yes, would be nice if young people would learn Lisp as first programming language? 22:52:41 Posterdati: not really, IMHO they should learn C first, then lisp, but it may be contriversial 22:53:02 maxm--: ok, so why not help this kind of people too? 22:53:26 i will help them if they know C, in fact its easy to explain lisp to someone who is expert in C 22:53:42 -!- ngz [~user@239.242.24.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:53:51 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:53:53 but if they seem to have no clue, imho the best is to suggest reddit.com/r/learnprogramming 22:53:56 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:54:18 or http://norvig.com/21-days.html :) 22:55:09 maxm--: mmmh I think that Lisp is more flexible to implement algorithms than c/c++ 22:55:15 *sykopomp* learned to program using Gentle Intro 22:55:36 sykopomp: I'm finishing to read these days too :) 22:55:59 -!- ysph [~user@adsl-065-013-204-170.sip.mgm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:56:23 Illiux [~nol@wsp047447wss.wireless.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 22:57:03 sykopomp: nice book with clear theory and clear exercises 23:02:29 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:02:41 grault [~root@94.21.30.106] has joined #lisp 23:02:44 hey 23:03:05 -!- grault [~root@94.21.30.106] has left #lisp 23:03:13 *maxm--* learned programming on atari. I traded an arcade shop owner my father's 2 books "complete beatles songs with guitar chords" books, for atari XL 23:03:31 it came with a basic manual, and 6505 cpu opcode list 23:03:49 jacobgats [~chatzilla@ppp046176150248.dsl.hol.gr] has joined #lisp 23:03:51 -!- Illiux [~nol@wsp047447wss.wireless.pitt.edu] has quit [Quit: Illiux] 23:04:11 amazing little machine.. You could program video card to have different video mode for each line of the screen. 23:04:24 Illiux [~nol@150.212.20.176] has joined #lisp 23:05:17 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 23:05:39 maxm--: 6502? 23:06:05 yea the one in apple II.. 8 bit cpu, I must have mis-remembered the model number 23:06:42 *maxm--* had bought "programming puzzles" book, and my first program was 8 queens thing.. I did not know about recursion, so it was iterative :-) 23:07:00 -!- jacobgats [~chatzilla@ppp046176150248.dsl.hol.gr] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0/20120129141551]] 23:08:47 *p_l|backup* learnt his first chops at assembly-level stuff by dry-reading atari manuals 23:08:54 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:09:55 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 23:13:29 maxm--: char b[3]; What is the type of b? 23:13:59 maxm--: commodore 64 here 23:15:11 Euthydemus: (defun main(int argc, char *argv[])) is better 23:17:51 pjb: I added information here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127546. I also seem to have gotten it working properly. The trouble is that I populate the parameter by reading in a config file, which I originally generated using (with-standard-io-syntax  print). That left a (quote ) around the symbol giving me troubles. 23:18:38 Euthydemus: ? char * obviouly 23:18:52 maxm--: Wrong. :) 23:19:13 meh I hate questions like that on interviews 23:19:44 array of chars 23:20:06 *maxm--* gave a practical answer, I'm sure you can argue that the right answer is something esoteric and hard to guess, and knowing which has no practical value whatsoever 23:20:21 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:39 maxm--: char b[3], *c; What is sizeof b? What is sizeof c? 23:20:53 plus question is badly phrased, "whats type of b" can be interpereted as to what type is "b" used in an expression, or what type is the entire declaration? 23:21:15 3 and sizeof(char *) 23:21:33 maxm--: ##c can help you with all of this. 23:21:33 Euthydemus: sizeof(b) >=> 3, sizeof(c) >=> is the size of a memory pointer 23:21:44 maxm--: Is that esoteric? 23:22:10 Euthydemus: no, but my answers are correct in practice 23:22:28 Sorry to bring C into this room. I just think that recommending C as a first language is crazy. :) 23:22:31 maxm--: and in true scotland as well? 23:22:46 give me example of compiler and architecture where char b[3], sizeof(b) is not 3 23:22:50 Euthydemus: not crazy at all 23:23:31 Euthydemus: depends on what would you like to do in your life :) If you like to write firmware then c is the better language, if you like to do research in CS then Lisp 23:23:49 maxm--: None. It sizeof b is always 3. But if you believe b is a char* you'd be surprised it's different from c. 23:24:34 s/It// 23:24:38 -!- gz` [gz@clozure-123267BA.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 23:25:24 Euthydemus: I interpreted your question as "what type b yields when used in expression", coz asking "what type is char b[3]" is kind of stupid question 23:26:54 maxm--: is b is of type char *, how can sizeof(b) not be sizeof(char*)? 23:27:12 maxm--: If you were to visit ##c you'd quickly get a different idea. It might not be a problem for you, but it pops up daily in there. 23:27:24 imho learning C first, gives person right ideas about computers in general. Ie data is stored in memory. Memory consists of cells/words that are next to each other. word size of the machine in bits/bytes, ie 16 bite machine will have words of 2 bytes 23:27:29 etc etc etc 23:27:54 Except C knows nothing about those things. 23:28:00 if you don't like C, teach them modern pascal varient, ie turbo pascal or delphi, same thing 23:28:26 Euthydemus: teach a person to program in C, and they will know these things by heart 23:29:15 maxm--: I think that Euthydemus would say that one should learn programming with a non strict typing, imperative programming language 23:29:30 Frozenlock [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-182.electronicbox.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:34 int x, *p; p = &x; What's the difference between p + 1 and p + 2? 23:30:00 Posterdati: No, I just think C is a particularily awful language. 23:30:20 Euthydemus: ah ok, then don't look at c++ 23:30:26 *maxm--* had introduced a few people to programming, and generally they were able to grasp the concepts pretty easily, once you drawn a bunch of cells on paper, and shown how "int a, b[2], c = b;" is really stored in memory.. After 5 minute explanation they were able to draw how stuff is stored from expression, once they graps that, knowing C is 50% there 23:30:36 Posterdati: I don't, and never will! :) 23:31:05 Euthydemus: and what about Cobol, you can code Shakespeare with it 23:31:07 -!- maximus_ [~maximus@71-217-25-20.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:31:20 maxm--: Sounds like you're teaching them an implementation of C, rather than C. 23:31:28 Posterdati: Haha! 23:31:41 Euthydemus: p+1 is next cell after one where p points to, p+2 is cell after that 23:31:48 configuration section, declaration section, eating section, rest section, bath section and so on 23:31:53 cell in this case is size of int, or machine native word.. 23:31:54 maxm--: p + 2 is UB. 23:31:55 Posterdati: what if you want to do research in writing firmware?\ 23:32:09 hefner: not in Lisp 23:32:27 Euthydemus: K&R, I think, refer to C as "portable assembler", to be used not only by humans, but even more by other programs 23:32:55 hefner: I hope you won't write software for military drones then :) 23:33:04 p_l|backup: yes 23:33:26 Euthydemus: you are trying to make C look complicated, its not.. If you explain to people how stuff is stored in memory, they will be able to draw your example on paper, and show exactly where x is, and how p is stored after it, and contains address of x, and etc.. 23:33:51 [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 23:34:11 maxm--: Do you know what UB is? 23:34:14 Posterdati: I hope that too. 23:34:48 hefner: I'd like to wrote firmwares using a dialect of Lisp :) 23:34:49 *p_l|backup* hides away his notes on building firmware in lisp, then 23:35:00 tritchey [~tritchey@209.131.196.174] has joined #lisp 23:35:20 Euthydemus: I guess undefined behavior? I don't see how its UB.. p+2 is perfectly valid expression, you can print it, store it somewhere etc, all without any UB 23:35:27 dereferencing it is UB 23:35:34 maxm--: No. p + 2 itself is UB. 23:35:43 maxm--: nope, you can't have pointers more than one past the end. 23:35:55 Euthydemus: if you think so, you are an idiot 23:36:14 maxm--: I don't just think so, I know so. It's in the standard. You don't know C, I'm afraid. 23:36:19 maxm--: no, but he might have read the standard. 23:36:24 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.158.68.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:36:36 standard/shmandart 23:36:41 :) 23:36:49 C is a wonderful language until you actually learn it. 23:36:54 "if you are so smart, why you are so poor" :-) 23:37:35 *hefner* liked it a lot better before smartass GCC hackers made a game out of finding new, technically conformant ways to break your software in the name of optimization 23:37:53 hefner: llvm can be pretty good at that too. 23:38:02 how can C standard say you can't add numbers to a pointer? I would have thought pointer arithmetic is well defined 23:38:08 maxm--: within an array. 23:38:10 theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.158.68] has joined #lisp 23:38:30 maxm--: It is. But the result has to point into the same array, or one beyond. 23:38:31 Some of it I can see happening by accident, like type-based range propagation for pointer difference. 23:38:48 -!- Sbidicuda [~antani@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:39:40 s/one/one element/ 23:39:56 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 23:40:36 -!- ale` [~user@dynamic-adsl-84-221-179-209.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:09 -!- vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-150-095.dsl.sil.at] has quit [Quit: vervic] 23:42:38 vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-150-095.dsl.sil.at] has joined #lisp 23:42:54 hefner: avr-gcc produce totally broken code when you ask for optimization :) 23:45:03 SurlyFrog: so you've found the problem. In general, you should not put quotes in data files. 23:45:21 Quotes are to be used only in programs, to introduce data. In data, they're dangerously superfluous. 23:45:33 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:2420:ea0:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:46 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:46:12 Euthydemus, maxm--: are we a bit OT? 23:46:33 Posterdati: Who's still talking? 23:46:38 *maxm--* has a frustrating feeling of thinking himself for all intends and purposes right, but beaten by a smartypants rhetorician :-) 23:47:07 Euthydemus: :) 23:47:14 maxm--: I'm not trying to be a "smartypants". I'm just saying C is not as simple as it might first appear. 23:47:26 sure, the same kind of smartypants who code up gcc's and llvm's optimisers. Hope you like code that only works at O0. 23:47:55 I'm sure if one spends time to go through a standard, you can come up with 100 questions, that would trick an experienced practicioner into "from top of his head" practical answers, but that would be technically incorrect 23:48:06 maxm--: If it weren't for all the UB, I'd probably think it'd be a decent first language. 23:48:10 I'd teach newbies both assembler and lisp rather than C and lisp. (C still might be useful for specialized tasks). But not ix86. Rather some sane assembler like 680x0 23:48:17 but in real life thats just dicking around, the worst kind of intellectual procrastination 23:48:29 Xach: can quicklisps pickup projects added to local-projects quicklisp has been loaded by the implementation? 23:48:31 I mean, some assembler that can be written by a human. ix86 is not the case. 23:48:34 pjb: why not arm? 23:48:36 borodon [~Borodon@ip68-106-150-168.cl.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:37 maxm--: You're mistaken, unfortunately. This does crop up in RL all the time. 23:48:41 in the end its the results that matter 23:48:46 Xach: let me try that again... 23:48:55 maxm--: That's why we use Lisp, and not C! :) 23:49:07 Xach: can quicklisp pickup projects added to local-projects after 23:49:07 quicklisp has been loaded by the implementation? 23:49:12 oops soz 23:49:57 Posterdati: yes, AFAIK, ARM is pretty sane. 23:50:01 *hefner* has never programmed a 68k machine, wonders what he missed. 23:50:21 hefner: split address/data registers? 23:50:29 hefner: magic autoincrement addressing and split pointer/integer registers 23:50:33 p_l|backup: yeah, I never took that as a selling point. 23:50:35 (pure accident of circuitry) 23:50:58 Euthydemus: the correct question I ask ppl on interviews is "int x[3], *p = x" 1) will printing value of x[5] print something? what would be the value? 2) Will assigning x[3] something succeed? if so what are the consequences at runtime" 23:51:29 :-) 23:52:03 I would take the guy who gives practical answers to these questions, over a guy who tells me that "these are UB" 23:52:05 pjb: it is symmetrical and orthogonal 23:52:52 pjb: learning assembler first is even better, but a lot of people would be scared of it more then learning C 23:53:40 pjb: 680x0 has got an elegant assembly set 23:53:49 maxm--: By practical you probably mean what's the case on your particular implementation. That's fine, I guess, as long as you realize it's not their knowledge of C you're testing. 23:54:20 pjb: like every non segmented cpus 23:54:36 Explicitly undefined behaviour is all sorts of fun when you need to think about interoperability. 23:55:08 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.136.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:55:49 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:56:03 pjb: do you know z8000 assembler? 23:56:04 -!- jack_rabbit [~Jack@mobile-250-234.near.uiuc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:56:22 no by practical I mean answers "it will print a random value", "program will either crash or corrupt memory" with more experienced people noting that the memory it corrupts would be either a next variable, or return address, depending on architecture stack direction 23:56:32 maxm--: You really are mistaken if you think this is mere pedantry. I don't understand why you're so combative over this. 23:56:41 ysph [~user@adsl-065-013-204-170.sip.mgm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:16 carlo_au [~carlo@ppp59-167-0-161.lns1.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:03 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:58 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:59:48 maxm--: that, or gcc assuming that it can elide the code and everything that follows.