00:00:29 -!- qelsi [~qelsi@205.Red-83-33-84.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:00:40 -!- neena [~neena@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:02:47 neena [~neena@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 00:03:50 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@0x55817866.terminal.tdcmobil.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:06:18 got ACL Enterprise eval, can do a demo tommorrow. I can go to sleep. Fuck yeah. 00:06:47 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:07:32 pnq [~nick@AC810F8A.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:33 mathrick [~mathrick@2.110.63.65] has joined #lisp 00:08:37 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@unaffiliated/kwertii] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:09:04 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:35 ApeShot [~user@rrcs-24-106-184-123.se.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:10:06 Any users of fiveAM in the house? I am porting a ton of tests over to it. 00:11:59 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:13:04 Kron [~Kron@199.91.213.16] has joined #lisp 00:15:06 kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-32-139.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 00:15:06 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-32-139.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Changing host] 00:15:06 kwertii [~kwertii@unaffiliated/kwertii] has joined #lisp 00:15:29 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.206.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:15:54 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:16:12 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.154] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:53 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:17:04 McMAGIC-1Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 00:17:10 jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@mobile-105-199.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 00:17:14 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:17:25 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:19:58 -!- decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has quit [Quit: füniküli fünikülaaa tafra yapma ya füniküli fünikülaa] 00:21:23 I use 5am. 00:22:31 hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:13 -!- hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:24:46 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@2.110.63.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:26:23 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:27:26 camurascura [~justinher@cpe-69-133-58-248.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:26 -!- camurascura_ [~justinher@cpe-69-133-58-248.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:28:26 -!- momo-reina [~user@p5029-ipbfp1301osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:30:39 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.83] has joined #lisp 00:31:41 mathrick [~mathrick@2.104.57.191] has joined #lisp 00:32:08 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.206.187] has joined #lisp 00:32:29 -!- rgrau_` [~user@99.Red-83-43-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:34:29 -!- camurascura [~justinher@cpe-69-133-58-248.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:41:06 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-196-229.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:43:03 rpg [~rpg@75-149-151-149-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:34 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@2.104.57.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:46:27 -!- Sbidicuda [~antani@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:47:16 quandle [~tim@pool-71-243-244-79.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:17 -!- quandle [~tim@pool-71-243-244-79.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 00:52:37 :( i doubt CLFSWM's license will change, so i won't be able to upstream my patches/extensions :( 00:53:42 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:55:10 -!- jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@mobile-105-199.near.uiuc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:55:17 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:56:54 jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@mobile-105-199.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 01:00:01 GPL prevents submitting patches? 01:00:04 [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 01:01:31 inaimathi: GPLv3 or any later version << i'm not willing to sign a death sentence :) (and by signing that, i allow the FSF to dictate me 'whatever') 01:01:42 -!- pnq [~nick@AC810F8A.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:02:11 ravster [~user@184.175.28.107] has joined #lisp 01:05:17 -!- jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@mobile-105-199.near.uiuc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:05:25 -!- vairav [~vairav@209.49.23.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 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has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:21:19 -!- Xach_ [~xach@cpe-67-255-229-229.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 01:21:19 Xach_ [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 01:21:21 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:21:24 -!- Xach_ is now known as Xach 01:21:50 vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-155-049.dsl.sil.at] has joined #lisp 01:29:55 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 01:31:49 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:32:44 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:33:01 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:08 mathrick [~mathrick@0x5ebd4bc5.terminal.tdcmobil.dk] has joined #lisp 01:36:29 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:38:06 -!- rpg [~rpg@75-149-151-149-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: rpg] 01:38:50 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39:26 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:43:42 Kuntsleim [MittRomney@jakarta.infinity-online.co.id] has joined #lisp 01:46:36 -!- ApeShot [~user@rrcs-24-106-184-123.se.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:48:28 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:48:51 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:39 -!- Kuntsleim [MittRomney@jakarta.infinity-online.co.id] has quit [K-Lined] 01:49:43 Adamant [~Adamant@71-22-233-28.gar.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:43 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@71-22-233-28.gar.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:49:43 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 01:51:30 SantorumPoo [SantorumPo@niglets.org] has joined #lisp 01:52:19 Cosman246 [~user@nat60-100.kcls.org] has joined #lisp 01:55:17 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-58-225.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:57:32 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@123.208.21.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:59:30 -!- SantorumPoo [SantorumPo@niglets.org] has quit [K-Lined] 02:03:54 -!- molqr [~m@202.3.77.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:04:43 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 02:07:20 -!- ravster [~user@184.175.28.107] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:08:38 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-133-90.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:08:49 decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has joined #lisp 02:11:25 kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:01 DataLinkDroid [~David@120.152.145.100] has joined #lisp 02:13:47 msponge [~msponge@30-7-244.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 02:14:09 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 02:14:32 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 02:15:41 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:07 -!- Cosman246 [~user@nat60-100.kcls.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:20:45 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 02:23:42 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 02:24:07 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:21 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@0x5ebd4bc5.terminal.tdcmobil.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:25:22 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:28:05 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:28:44 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:31:09 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 02:34:01 -!- decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has quit [Quit: füniküli fünikülaaa tafra yapma ya füniküli fünikülaa] 02:35:27 decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has joined #lisp 02:36:54 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:39:35 fornikinder [RandyJan@burnje.ws] has joined #lisp 02:39:40 gko [~gko@42-74-182-224.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:35 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483ADF5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:09 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483AAAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:45:44 -!- fornikinder [RandyJan@burnje.ws] has quit [K-Lined] 02:48:26 If anybody has some time to kill and wnats to do me a favor or wants to know what CLESH is and how it works, then he/she could leave me a comment on my first blog post ever: http://christian.ftwca.de:8080/post/clesh---the-common-lisp-embedded-shell 02:50:14 -!- msponge [~msponge@30-7-244.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: msponge] 02:52:03 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:40 Any other Seattlite lispers? 02:54:20 -!- neena [~neena@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:54:50 neena [~neena@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 02:55:51 -!- totzeit1 [~kirkwood@204.15.3.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:57:33 fantasticsid [~user@178.18.16.11] has joined #lisp 02:58:04 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-133-90.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:59:12 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-133-90.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:59:42 Neronus: cool 03:00:26 ... speedup from ACL personal to enterprise 64 is huge 03:01:45 Neronus: Is the interpolated result turned into a string? 03:03:04 Neronus: can I build the argument list in CL, then feed it to the shell? 03:04:51 kanru`: Yes, whatever you interpolate is turned into a string 03:05:22 so [ echo ?(+ 2 2) ] will turn into "echo 4" which will then be executed 03:06:33 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 03:06:37 are the chars [] free for use in cl ? 03:07:16 clesh looks awesome 03:07:47 homie: They are not defined, no 03:07:52 drysdam: Thank you 03:08:23 homie: Also, you choose yourself i you use it on a file-basis. I'm not modifying the global readtable, of course. 03:08:46 ah ok 03:09:59 -!- neena [~neena@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:10:14 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@unaffiliated/kwertii] has quit [Quit: bye] 03:10:14 what db do you prefer on cl ? 03:10:18 postgres, mysql ? 03:10:20 neena [~neena@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 03:10:54 homie: I'm using sqlite because of no headaches, but I guess it depends on your needs 03:11:08 ok 03:12:34 frx [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has joined #lisp 03:13:24 is sqlite only locally or can it do networking too ? 03:13:40 mylesh [~mhenderso@cpe-024-074-118-001.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:14:03 hello. I'm trying to extract emails from random text. I define email as a sequence of non-whitespace letters, followed by @, more letters, #\., then more letters. (ppcre:scan-to-strings "(\\S+@\\S+\\.\\S+)" string) gives me the first email. how would I get all? 03:14:37 frx: @ is a non-whitespace letter 03:14:46 unless you mean A-Za-z 03:14:57 which is a pretty crappy subset of emails 03:15:18 homie: As far as I know it's only local. But if you're prepared to do networking, then I would recommend postgres 03:15:40 ok 03:15:57 you're right, I need to adjust my regexp. but still how would I get more than one match with ppcre? 03:16:54 frx: you can use SCAN instead. 03:17:27 frx: or DO-SCANS 03:17:40 or ALL-MATCHES 03:17:44 truly there are many options 03:19:10 drysdam_ [~dr@pool-70-16-206-52.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:12 all-matches-as-strings, nice 03:19:22 gigamonkey: do you have emacs-mode for Markup? 03:19:23 thanks 03:19:46 gigamonkey: i mean, markup-mode for emacs 03:21:18 hah 03:21:35 does this regex seem better? (ppcre:all-matches-as-strings "([^\\s@]+@[^\\s@]+\\.[^\\s@]+)" string) 03:21:54 mathrick [~mathrick@0x5ebd4bc5.terminal.tdcmobil.dk] has joined #lisp 03:22:05 non-whitespace non-@ characters. seems good enough to catch all correct emails in practice 03:22:17 -!- drysdam [~dr@pool-70-16-206-187.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:22:29 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:22:37 (and few incorrect ones but I won't lose sleep over it) 03:24:05 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:13 you don't need any captures 03:25:24 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 03:25:49 yeah true 03:26:31 holycow [~holycow@host-64-151-208-2.bchsia.in2net.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:59 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@0x5ebd4bc5.terminal.tdcmobil.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:29:46 psilord [~psilord@c-24-118-208-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:52 -!- psilord [~psilord@c-24-118-208-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:30:30 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-64-151-208-2.bchsia.in2net.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:32:14 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 03:35:37 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:02 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:48:44 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-133-90.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:48:56 -!- frx [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:51:20 -!- vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-155-049.dsl.sil.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:51:55 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-52-210.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:53:22 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:53:49 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:54:51 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-80-89.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:55:09 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-38-24.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 03:55:22 vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:47 Jamamooga [~Jamamooga@208.67.205.11] has joined #lisp 03:56:20 -!- sysop_fb [~fb@108-66-160-34.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:57:33 -!- inaimathi [~inaimathi@bas1-toronto61-1279436984.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: night all] 03:58:07 fe[nl]ix: Around? 03:58:42 -!- Jamamooga [~Jamamooga@208.67.205.11] has left #lisp 04:01:02 cnl [~cnl@94.231.123.31] has joined #lisp 04:01:21 totzeit1 [~kirkwood@74-95-195-182-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:34 -!- djanatyn [~djanatyn@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has left #lisp 04:15:56 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:18:44 -!- davlap [~davlap@c-24-147-211-14.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 04:23:01 setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@183.106.96.8] has joined #lisp 04:24:03 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-133-90.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:25:24 coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:24 -!- coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:25:24 coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 04:25:42 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:26:08 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:27:05 vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtechnology.com] has joined #lisp 04:28:01 -!- setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@183.106.96.8] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:28:11 setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.8] has joined #lisp 04:30:01 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:31:18 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 04:31:57 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:34:16 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-041.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:34:35 wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:34:59 -!- totzeit1 [~kirkwood@74-95-195-182-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:35:46 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:36:05 -!- gko [~gko@42-74-182-224.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:37:10 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:39:03 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-133-90.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:39:32 Is there an exhaustive reference for language documentation online, like docs.python.org is to Python? 04:39:42 *exhaustive and authoritative 04:39:58 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.27.83] has joined #lisp 04:40:14 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-133-90.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:40:49 Aethaeryn: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/ 04:42:45 austinh: thanks, that is quite exhaustive 04:42:48 I'll bookmark it 04:43:37 Aethaeryn: You can also download it and install it locally. 04:44:05 Aethaeryn: And slime can be configured to jump from a symbol in your source directly to the symbol's definition in the hyperspec. 04:44:15 sounds useful 04:44:26 Is this in default slime or do I have to download it separately? 04:44:29 I probably use it at least a dozen times a day. 04:44:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@2.132.170.144] has joined #lisp 04:44:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@2.132.170.144] has quit [Changing host] 04:44:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:45:06 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:45:13 Aethaeryn: It comes with slime. 04:45:58 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 04:46:01 Aethaeryn: In fact, the default might automatically link to the online version of the hyperspec, IIUC. 04:46:06 zkc [~zkc@219.137.211.141] has joined #lisp 04:46:24 I have (setq common-lisp-hyperspec-root "file:///usr/share/doc/hyperspec/") in my .emacs 04:46:25 austinh: How is it accessed via slime? 04:46:37 C-c C-d h 04:46:42 austinh: Do you download it via an http crawler? 04:46:54 Or is it actually bundled for download somewhere? 04:47:13 it can be installed with aptitude on Debian 04:47:21 It defaults to the site. 04:47:37 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@2.132.170.144] has joined #lisp 04:47:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:50:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.169.210] has joined #lisp 04:50:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.169.210] has quit [Changing host] 04:50:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:52:17 austinh: ah, thanks, I downloaded it from the site directly and just used the same setq you did to point it to the hyperspec folder 04:52:36 Now I have Internet-independent Lisp documentation 04:53:17 Aethaeryn: The hyperspec is great. I hate it when I'm using something other than Lisp and I can't get solid answers. 04:53:28 ^ 04:53:33 Some languages are better than others in documenting themselves. 04:53:41 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@2.132.170.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:53:46 Javascript is terrible to find good resources for, at least in my experience. 04:55:00 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-236-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:56:02 Now if only I could remember C-c C-d h easily. 04:56:13 If it was something like C-c C-d C-r it'd be no problem :-P 04:56:29 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:57:09 The annoying thing is that once your fingers know the slime doc keys, they forget the elisp doc keys 04:57:09 hah 04:57:18 You could map it to F1. 04:57:24 Aethaeryn: isn't it C-c C-d H? 04:57:39 exactly. 04:57:56 the joke was c-d-h isn't very meaningful, whereas c-d-r is. 05:00:20 Aethaeryn: you misunderstand. 05:00:22 the capitalization matters. 05:00:44 ysph [~user@adsl-98-89-72-107.mgm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:48 Ralith: doesn't in my slime 05:00:58 huh. 05:01:02 Mine, neither. 05:01:07 C-c C-d H (with the shift) and C-c C-d h (without) produce the same prompt for me 05:01:09 nor mine. 05:01:12 weird. 05:01:21 wonder where I got that idea. 05:01:28 It might've been like that in an old version. 05:01:29 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:01:32 That's the problem with software. 05:01:59 Like how they kept rewriting old books in 1984, the digital world changes so often. 05:02:31 Don't count on the hyperspec changing too often. 05:02:40 austinh: I mean the keyboard shortcut 05:03:19 You said "the digital world changes so often." 05:03:28 silly austinh 05:03:32 somebody's surely printed out the hyperspec. 05:03:37 My point is, it's easy to push a change and not even notice it. 05:05:40 Ralith: I printed out a 13 page quick reference, I don't think I'd have the paper to print out the hyperspec 05:05:43 How many pages is it? 05:05:58 lots. 05:06:11 (that is the extent of my knowledge) 05:06:43 Ralith: I thought the point of Lisp as a "simple" language makes it possible for one person to basically know it all? Or is that another Lisp they were talking about? 05:06:53 This is the problem with the word "Lisp" 05:07:11 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 05:07:15 sunmix [~user@49.49.133.185] has joined #lisp 05:07:17 When people are talking about "simple," they usually mean Scheme. 05:07:22 Aethaeryn: Lisp is simple. 05:07:32 that doesn't mean that there isn't a fair bit to specify. 05:07:37 I was bringing up that I was learning "Lisp" and someone asked me why I would want to know such an "ancient" language... the ANSI for Common Lisp is 1994 05:07:39 Or, "concise" might be a better word. 05:07:43 ^ 05:07:46 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:08:05 Java is 1995 and Python is 1991 05:08:09 Aethaeryn: for example, the hyperspec defines countless functions and macros, most of which can be easily understood and are not a component of the language proper so much as the standard l ibrary. 05:08:14 So Python's older than ANSI CL and Java's only barely younger. 05:08:41 Aethaeryn: Java is actually 1992~1993 or so 05:08:50 p_l: I'm going off of the Wikipedia "appeared in" dates 05:09:05 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:09:13 Lisp can be implemented with only a few primitives. 05:09:21 and Python back then was unrecognizable with modern one, iirc - the problem of implementation-driven language design ;) 05:09:23 and most of those rarely come up in user code. 05:09:37 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 05:10:20 Aethaeryn: outside of MOP (and I suspect deep bits of CLOS), most of what I use in "everyday's" lisp code was there by 1990 05:10:33 *austinh* goes for beer. Good night. 05:10:42 austinh: 'night 05:11:56 sunmix` [~user@49.49.133.185] has joined #lisp 05:12:53 p_l: well, yes, but it's hardly "ancient" 05:13:43 Aethaeryn: there's a example somewhere on the net that shows 70s (if not 60s) code running on ANSI CL with minor compat shim 05:13:59 hmm 05:14:05 how compatable are lisp dialects? 05:14:12 Could e.g. elisp code typically run on cl? 05:14:18 Or scheme? 05:14:20 -!- sunmix [~user@49.49.133.185] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:14:24 Aethaeryn: if you were really mad, yes 05:14:26 Or do some of these have major incompatabilities in a core feature? 05:14:42 sunmix`` [~user@49.49.133.185] has joined #lisp 05:14:44 the thing is, the dialects surviving now are the ones that were more diversified 05:15:09 Lisp-1 vs Lisp-2, dynamic vs. lexical scope etc. 05:15:23 -!- sunmix` [~user@49.49.133.185] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:15:43 a huge tract of "similar" lisps were moved towards ANSI CL :) 05:15:49 *was 05:17:20 Including that one mentioned earlier that had the awesome ] to close all open (? 05:17:39 Because that is a pretty awesome feature for the lazy. 05:17:55 o.O 05:18:09 Aethaeryn: nah, that one went... quirky I believe 05:18:34 and no, that isn't good for lazy at all 05:18:45 says a very lazy person 05:18:49 -!- decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:18:56 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 05:19:18 p_l: so nothing's lost without it? 05:19:56 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:19:59 I mean, I guess you could (if I understand the reprogrammability of Lisp correctly) implement that feature (though it'd break emacs's detection thingie), but it's probably not worth it. 05:21:44 probably? 05:21:45 :P 05:22:49 lakkris [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:35 Ralith: the more philosophy classes you take, the fewer things you say with certainty. :-P 05:24:29 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 05:25:07 so is Practical Common Lisp what everyone recommends in #lisp ? 05:25:24 Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-38-186.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 05:25:25 -!- coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:25:36 if you have some programming background. 05:27:06 coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:07 -!- coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:27:07 coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 05:27:41 -!- lakkris [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:28:15 -!- coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:28:35 coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:36 -!- coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:28:36 coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 05:28:55 Ralith: Yes, I've been programming for a few years now. 05:29:03 good! 05:29:21 I'm a very impatient person and when I read http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html imply that Lisp is good for rapid development, I decided to evaluate the claims in the most charitable manner. 05:30:41 Currently, Python is my favorite language to program a lot of stuff in a short amount of time. I'll see how good Lisp is. 05:31:09 I tried switching from Python to Lisp... 05:31:53 perhaps I just got bogged down in macros but I found that learning Lisp changed the way I approached Python more than empowered me to write lisp. 05:31:56 If Python was my only language I'd have trouble because Python's handling of whitespace is rather unique. No, I've programmed extensively in other languages too (especially Java and Lua) 05:32:08 -!- coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Client Quit] 05:32:25 I hate Java. Java is the language other people force you to use when you have no choice in the language. <_< 05:32:30 there's always haskell 05:32:41 it has pythony whitespace 05:32:42 I'm not ready for Haskell 05:32:47 that's a shame 05:32:56 ^^same. 05:33:15 haskell will change the way you approach everything 05:33:41 Idk, most of these "change your life" languages just happen to be rather mathematical 05:33:56 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 05:34:07 I'm already a math major, so e.g. the construction of Lisp isn't that much of a surprise. 05:34:07 and? 05:34:27 From the very simple basic elements constructing a complicated language... well, I've *seen* that before! :-P 05:34:35 that's not really what makes haskell awesome 05:34:52 I know. 05:35:28 My point is, most of these interesting languages seem to just take concepts from math (real math, the stuff only math majors tend to see, not things like Calc I) and apply them. 05:35:48 Ralith: what makes it so unique? the inherent laziness? 05:36:01 Arrdem: one of many factors. 05:36:08 the type system's my favorite bit, personally 05:36:21 RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:36:27 *Ralith* is working on-and-off on welding that to a lisp experimentally 05:36:28 true... sometimes I catch myself wishing I could type my Python.. 05:36:51 frx [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has joined #lisp 05:37:47 Arrdem: well, you "can" do that where types are important. 05:38:05 you have a very weak definition of 'important' 05:38:07 Various different ways to force types, I know, not as simple as just declaring a variable as typed. 05:38:17 And not the performance advantages 05:38:26 da. my thoughts exactly. 05:38:58 usually, though, I find types aren't really that important to worry about. 05:39:25 you should really learn haskell. 05:39:57 uh, one thing at a time 05:40:17 I'm not averse to it... 05:40:39 xyxu1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.83] has joined #lisp 05:40:50 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:40:52 I just don't understand the syntax at all 05:41:20 coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:21 -!- coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:41:21 coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 05:41:40 kanru`: you still here? 05:41:47 I do have an emacs markup-mode. 05:41:56 I should probably put that on github. 05:42:04 cool 05:42:36 I'm planning to use markup to build my blog system 05:43:10 Aethaertn: How's Lisping going for you? 05:43:10 can I create a method that will work on built in types? on all types? didn't learn about methods much until now 05:43:19 * Aethaeryn 05:46:49 How's Lisping going for you? 05:47:54 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.254.38] has joined #lisp 05:47:59 jcowan [~John@cpe-66-108-19-185.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:48:38 gko [~gko@27.246.46.94] has joined #lisp 05:51:02 kanru`: excellent. That's what I'm doing. 05:51:15 drwho [~drwho@56-34-237-24.gci.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:55 ddp [~ddp@otwbsc02.oceanic.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:15 Cosman246: Slow progress due to my first "full" week of school (all math classes, and all night classes except one) 05:52:24 Friday's my first day off. 05:52:29 teggi [~teggi@123.21.156.9] has joined #lisp 05:53:15 Ah 05:53:16 Since I managed to fix slime and play around with it I'm going to sit down and work through http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 05:53:23 Cool 05:53:28 Later, you should read SICP 05:53:42 (Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs) 05:53:59 gigamonkey: I never heard back from your publishers about permissions, alas. 05:55:58 mtd [~martin@chop.xades.com] has joined #lisp 05:57:28 jcowan: remind me what permissions you wanted 05:58:35 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has joined #lisp 05:58:37 frx: you can define a generic function and then define a method that specializes on any type you want including T which is the eventual super-class of all classes. 05:58:46 To create an ISLISP-based version of PCL. 06:00:24 gigamonkey: isn't it any class, not any type? 06:00:33 it's just that there are classes for most standard types. 06:01:16 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 06:01:20 -!- dca` [~user@178.252.127.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:02:01 i want to override methods for ints, floats complex 06:02:06 and rationals 06:03:18 -!- benny [~benny@i577A74DE.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:03:20 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@m212-96-64-109.cust.tele2.kz] has joined #lisp 06:03:20 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:03:23 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 06:03:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@m212-96-64-109.cust.tele2.kz] has quit [Changing host] 06:03:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:09:25 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 06:09:53 JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 06:10:33 Cosman246: Okay, I'll look into SICP... Isn't that Scheme though? 06:11:23 It is, but with SICP under your belt you can learn any language you want. 06:11:31 hang [~hang@112.152.81.14] has joined #lisp 06:13:36 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 06:13:40 -!- hang [~hang@112.152.81.14] has left #lisp 06:16:40 sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 06:18:04 hello. can someone tell me what's going on in here, I'm not really grasping it. `(1 ,(+ 2 3)) 06:18:20 vs `(1 (+ 2 3)) 06:19:55 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:20:02 1 is not a function 06:20:15 ? 06:20:19 but it's the first element of a list, which is always assumed to be the function position 06:20:42 even if quoted or backquoted 06:21:08 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-178-148-242-32.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:21:29 not really 06:21:32 use list 06:22:00 I'm not following homie 06:22:41 sezo: the expression after , (comma) will be evaluated 06:22:48 That 1 is not in function position; it's just the car of a list. 06:23:49 gigamonkey: I wanted permission to create an ISLisp version of PCL. You told me to contact APress, as they had the derivative rights. 06:24:27 teggi why? and why isn't it evaluated without comma? 06:24:42 sezo: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html 06:25:05 sezo: Because that's what backquote does: it is like quote, but allows "unquoted" forms to be embedded in it with comma. 06:25:18 i am actually reading that book but im just on third chapter 06:25:50 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 06:26:27 `(1 (+ 2 3)) returns (1 (+ 2 3)) 06:26:30 what is + ? 06:26:51 function? 06:26:52 backquote tells: that one is code to be not evaled 06:27:08 sezo: The name of a function, technically. But yes. 06:27:53 a symbol 06:27:54 quote tells: that one is data, not code (to eval), to eval 06:27:57 (1 (+ 2 3)) is a list. first element is 1, second element is a list, with first element being a symbol +, second and third being 2 and 3 06:28:51 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 06:31:08 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 06:31:58 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.46.169.210] has joined #lisp 06:31:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:32:01 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 06:32:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.169.210] has quit [Changing host] 06:32:02 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:33:17 thanks all. so , is for evaluating functions? 06:33:28 one is for distuinguishing code from data, the other from distuinguishing code .......... 06:34:20 sezo: It lets you create semi-constant data: most of it is constant, but the , allows you to compute parts of the data at run time. 06:34:20 That is, ` does. 06:36:18 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:36:18 sezo: , evaluates anything that follows it 06:36:31 -!- ddp [~ddp@otwbsc02.oceanic.net] has quit [Quit: ddp] 06:36:35 which can be? 06:36:42 forms 06:36:45 atoms 06:36:46 evaluates as in (eval ...) ? 06:36:49 -!- Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:37:03 Yes, or as in what happens when you type something to the Lisp REPL. 06:37:42 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.137.100] has joined #lisp 06:38:07 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-26.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:38:41 so why don't we just do (list 1 (+ 2 3)) instead? 06:38:58 You can, but that gets old fast when the structure is more complex than that. 06:39:20 In fact, the implementation typically rewrites the ` as something like that. 06:39:34 Without `, you have to very carefully quote the quoted parts. 06:40:00 It's the same as double quotes in the shell, with $ playing the role of comma. 06:40:30 anon119 [~androirc@c-98-252-67-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:20 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:42:08 jcowan: well, I have a hard time getting answers to my emails from them and I'm allegedly one of their best 06:42:10 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 06:42:11 -selling authors. 06:42:26 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:05 Doesn't sound profitable. I take it then that the rights have not reverted to you? 06:44:30 Nope. Actually that's an interesting question. They have the publication rights but I hold the copyright. And they have the rights for foreign language translations. But I'd have to look at the contract to see if they actually have the right to publish all derived works. 06:44:34 Hmmmm. 06:44:45 But right now I'm going to bed. 06:46:11 ok that's clear now. i dont like going to next thing until i understand everything i'm suppose to first 06:46:41 by the way i like how everything returns value. like if, when, case etc 06:47:54 in languages i used things like switch if etc don't return values 06:47:58 Yes, though some things return () for lack of anything better. 06:48:16 meaning? 06:50:49 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 06:50:59 For example, defun returns the symbol being defined, but it's rare to write code that actually depends on this. 06:51:08 sezo: anything has a value. when nothing worth to return, they return () aka nil 06:51:11 Similarly, print returns the object printed; same point. 06:51:20 ah nil 06:51:37 Yes, () is another way to write nil. 06:51:50 yeah I noticed. (when (= 1 2) 10) would return nil 06:51:55 Right. 06:52:03 -!- Kron [~Kron@199.91.213.16] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 06:52:04 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-145-218.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:52:12 Again, people don't normally depend on what "when" returns. 06:53:30 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:54:35 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 06:54:50 is there something that doesn't return value? 06:55:08 some expression-only thing 06:55:13 jcowan: "people"? 06:55:14 (values) is an expression that returns no values 06:55:26 what does it return 06:55:30 jcowan: i actually do rely on the return value of when sometimes. 06:55:31 no values. 06:55:31 but it will be coerced to nil 06:55:33 It returns .. nothing. 06:55:50 But in a context that expects something rather than nothing, a nil materializes out of thin air. 06:55:59 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:56:03 there also is no agreement as to whether (values) is idiomatic cl 06:56:09 H4ns: Sure, you can rely on anything that's documented to be reliable. 06:56:23 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 06:56:27 a value-less expression counts as nil when used where a value is expected, of course 06:56:42 I'd say it is not idiomatic CL to return (values) merely to return nothing-useful. 06:56:51 Again, it's not *wrong* to do so. 06:56:58 but i mean is there like a switch or loop that returns no value? few i saw all do 06:57:12 I think it's OK, but you don't have to go out of your way to do it 06:57:26 sezo: Not a standard one. Multiple values were added to Lisp fairly late, so there are few uses of them in the standard libraries. 06:57:26 jcowan: right. when giving style advice, it is good not to claim that "people" "normally" do something, but that "you" prefer something or not. 06:57:33 nope, they all return either nil or something else 06:58:01 H4ns: In general I agree, but I'm willing to (over)simplify for beginners. 06:58:21 jcowan: ok. no offense intended. 06:58:31 None intended on my part, and none taken. 06:59:20 h4ns just curious when would you rely on when returning a value? have an example 07:00:34 sezo: (let ((x (when (plusp y) y))) ...) would set x to the value of y only if it is a positive number 07:00:56 sezo: AND would be equivalent to WHEN here and i'd actually prefer it 07:00:56 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 07:01:10 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:01:24 sezo: there are occasions, though, where i find WHEN or UNLESS clearer. can't come up with a better example right now, though. 07:02:07 okay 07:02:17 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.254.38] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:02:52 Actually, my rule of thumb is: "If Scheme says the result is undefined, don't use it even in CL." :-) 07:03:15 jcowan: what would be an example? 07:03:37 just another question and I'll go back to reading my book. what exactly is happening in here? (defmacro backwards (expr) (reverse expr)) 07:03:51 (backward (1 2 +)) 07:04:25 i mean i see i reversed positions of function and arguments but what's going on under the hood 07:04:49 -!- gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:04:52 -!- neena [~neena@76.73.121.203] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:05:16 try (macroexpand '(backward (1 2 +))) 07:05:23 neena [~neena@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 07:05:51 What's happening is that when (backwards '(1 2 3)) is seen, the macro-function is invoked, namely reverse. 07:06:53 -!- anon119 [~androirc@c-98-252-67-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:07:03 and that's done before the code is passed to the compiler 07:08:06 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:10:11 H4ns: def*, when, unless, setf, and other setters, returning the wrong number of values, close, print and friends, load. 07:10:29 Also I don't like depending on the order of argument evaluation. 07:11:06 why would you care about scheme when writing lisp though 07:11:35 jcowan: interesting. well, the scheme rules really don't apply to a lot of cl code, though, so you'll see them be broken frequently. 07:11:51 Sure. These are just my personal style rules. 07:12:06 The one about argument order I consider really obnoxious. 07:12:11 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:12:46 The others I would consider minor. 07:12:49 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 07:13:39 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:14:22 3rd chapter in PCL is really killing me. 07:14:51 I meant to say: The one about argument order is the only one I consider really obnoxious. 07:15:53 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:16:08 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 07:16:38 -!- vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:19:23 -!- neena [~neena@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:19:27 decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has joined #lisp 07:19:50 neena [~neena@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 07:20:09 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-66-108-19-185.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:20:09 -!- ysph [~user@adsl-98-89-72-107.mgm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:20:53 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:21:25 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-146-74.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:45 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-lgkimmejbenweneg] has joined #lisp 07:27:09 going to sleep good night all. thanks for making things clearer 07:27:13 -!- sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: quit] 07:36:07 paul0 [~paul0@177.16.149.185] has joined #lisp 07:36:14 mishoo [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has joined #lisp 07:45:42 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:47:49 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.137.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:47:53 vantage|work [~chatzilla@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 07:48:01 -!- sousousou 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attila_lendvai [~attila_le@m212-96-64-229.cust.tele2.kz] has quit [Changing host] 08:42:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:42:16 good morning everyone 08:43:56 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 08:44:07 ehu [~ehuels@109.38.60.109] has joined #lisp 08:45:53 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.236.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:48:37 good morning 08:48:49 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 08:48:49 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 08:48:49 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:50:08 :D 08:50:29 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:50:41 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-157-43.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:53 -!- tiglog [~topeak@117.79.233.203] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:52:09 Good afternoon. 08:52:30 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:52:32 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-yjuulmbckgxzrwhb] has joined #lisp 08:54:14 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:14 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:54:14 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 08:55:09 -!- lispmeister [~fix@AStDenis-551-1-58-231.w92-160.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 08:55:28 Ttm [~ripault@sao-paulo.lrde.epita.fr] has joined #lisp 08:55:30 hi 08:57:26 -!- goldenlight [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-jznwbohmwhtemcil] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:03:29 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:03:46 [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 09:08:32 spacebat [~user@ppp203-122-223-124.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:53 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 09:09:18 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 09:16:27 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:18:21 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 09:18:35 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:18:57 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:20:00 -!- vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:26:41 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:28:31 compj [~compj@p54BF5272.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:28:36 -!- splittist [~splittist@74-104.198-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: splittist] 09:29:37 jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has joined #lisp 09:30:10 -!- spacebat [~user@ppp203-122-223-124.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:30:35 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:32:21 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:21 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 09:32:21 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 09:32:43 -!- espadrine [~thaddee_t@acces2477.res.insa-lyon.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:33:07 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:36:01 ivan-kanis [~user@244.31.201.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:37 blandest [~user@ip4-85-204-33-242.euroweb.ro] has joined #lisp 09:44:24 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 09:44:48 hkarlen [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has joined #lisp 09:46:09 -!- ngz [~user@239.242.24.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:52:57 hkarlen` [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has joined #lisp 09:52:57 -!- hkarlen [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:53:28 vervic [~vervic@chello080109071009.14.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:58:30 hkarlen`` [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has joined #lisp 09:58:30 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.27.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:59:44 -!- xyxu1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:00:08 -!- hkarlen`` is now known as hkarlen 10:01:43 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:01:51 -!- hkarlen` [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:01:59 hello lispers! 10:02:33 for once that Elance has something that could be interesting, it's in scheme :( 10:03:50 and for U.S. contractors only 10:04:02 silenius [~silenius@i59F70608.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:04:10 anybody interested ? 10:09:02 $250 or less. and that's not per hour. 10:09:53 even for someone with very low demand, that is hardly a realistic budget for anything remotely called a "projekt" 10:09:56 project 10:10:54 H4ns, correct it's more a fart :) 10:11:25 It whìould have been better a $250,000 10:12:05 but Elance seems always to have these "occasions" 10:12:34 what's Elance? 10:13:11 nvm 10:13:16 ok 10:14:41 -!- vantage|work [~chatzilla@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:14:58 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:18:47 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:19:51 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:51 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:19:51 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 10:20:59 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:35 vantage|work [~chatzilla@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 10:23:53 Sbidicuda [~antani@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:27:57 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:28:09 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit 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has quit [Changing host] 10:50:16 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 10:50:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:53:40 -!- zkc [~zkc@219.137.211.141] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:54:08 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:54:16 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 10:56:01 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:56:58 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:58 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:56:58 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 11:00:07 splittist [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has joined #lisp 11:00:10 re 11:00:38 -!- kanru` [~user@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:00:55 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping 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has joined #lisp 11:14:19 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.38.60.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:14:29 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 11:14:59 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 11:17:01 homie: []{}?! are reserved for user reader macros. 11:17:27 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:19:26 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:19:51 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:52 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:19:52 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 11:22:39 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:24:03 daniel___ [~daniel@p5B3263CA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:11 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:25:29 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B32640E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:27:22 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-157-43.as43234.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:27:40 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:27:57 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 11:29:11 rudi [~rudi@1x-193.157.224.28.uio.no] has joined #lisp 11:29:41 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:03 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-157-43.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:37 dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 11:33:32 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:46 hello. 11:35:48 vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:02 -!- frx [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (Ping timeout)] 11:36:50 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 11:37:12 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-38-24.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:38:06 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:38:19 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:38:38 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 11:39:17 more nightly lisp porn as I complete day 4 of my make-a-game-in-7-days challenge http://ompldr.org/vY2xyaQ/xalcyon-alpha.mp4 11:40:12 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:40:41 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 11:40:41 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 11:40:41 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:41:19 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:41:38 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:42:41 add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-47-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 11:43:00 eno [~eno@70.137.133.209] has joined #lisp 11:43:00 -!- eno [~eno@70.137.133.209] has quit [Changing host] 11:43:00 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 11:45:09 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:45:36 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:46:00 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:46:09 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:47:32 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:48:33 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.239] has joined #lisp 11:48:57 dto: cool! shields! I have to say, this game feels like I should be standing up in a darkened arcade with a background of random bleeps and bloops from the other machines, desperately leaning into the knobs and slapping the buttons, hoping the kid who has just put his quarter on the glass to reserve the next game gets bored and moves on... 11:49:03 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:49:34 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:49:48 splittist: yes :) im pretty excited. ive been trying for a long time to figure out how to make a proper sequel to xong and i think i've got it :) 11:50:08 splittist: i should add enemy shields for the base doors, so that you can't do what i did at the end and just drop a bomb on the base :) 11:50:21 these are the moments that make me love Lisp. 11:50:37 splittist: how old are you 11:50:51 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:52 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:50:52 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 11:51:16 dto: over 40, under 50 11:51:25 (man, that's old) 11:51:43 i'm 33 but got into lisp when i was.... 27 or so 11:52:16 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:54:44 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:54:49 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 11:55:38 technically, everyone on #lisp is 33 11:55:55 xsdaa [~xsdaa@tor-exit0-readme.dfri.se] has joined #lisp 11:56:05 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-220-62.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:57:24 Weren't we all born with lisp, in 1959? 11:57:56 pjb: that's a bit more than 33 years, check your math 11:58:39 -!- decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has quit [Quit: füniküli fünikülaaa tafra yapma ya füniküli fünikülaa] 11:58:42 Yes, technically we're all 53. 11:58:44 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: [ Close the World, Open the nExt ]] 11:59:23 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:59:26 -!- xsdaa [~xsdaa@tor-exit0-readme.dfri.se] has left #lisp 11:59:29 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-165-94.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:59:59 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:00:19 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:00:53 Just the early prototypes that weren't debugged properly. 12:01:04 They're quite erratic these days, as you can see. 12:01:36 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 12:01:48 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:49 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:01:49 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 12:04:02 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:06:20 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.158.4] has joined #lisp 12:06:37 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:06:37 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:07:04 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:07:07 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 12:07:39 [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 12:07:40 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-165-94.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:08:13 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-165-94.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:08:31 I don't know if this is the place to ask, but: We seem to be missing the lisp.paste.org bot in #emacs - what happened to it? 12:10:29 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.206.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:10:46 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.158.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:11:01 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:11:31 myrkraverk: the lisppaste bot is dead, sadly. 12:11:33 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:12:12 Aww. Any chance of a resurrection? 12:12:45 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-165-94.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:12:45 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:46 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:12:46 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 12:12:48 myrkraverk: it seems to be very hard. hard enough for the owner to have shied away from fixing it for several months now. 12:12:55 myrkraverk: so i'd not hold my breath. 12:13:07 :( 12:13:17 myrkraverk: indeed. 12:14:38 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:15:24 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:17:18 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@114.51.165.94] has joined #lisp 12:18:53 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:23 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.158.4] has joined #lisp 12:19:44 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-157-43.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 12:24:51 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:26:44 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:44 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:26:44 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 12:27:54 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:28:18 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:39 myrkraverk: one could write a bot that would scan http://paste.lisp.org once each second, and forward pastes to the rigth channel 12:33:49 :) 12:33:53 pjb: sure! 12:34:02 pjb: that would not solve the blank page problem, though. 12:34:05 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@114.51.165.94] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:34:13 right. 12:34:27 You could write a bot to write on blank pages. 12:34:40 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-165-94.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:34:49 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 12:35:08 Zhivago: or i could drill a hole in my knee and pour coffee into it. 12:35:20 just sayin 12:35:46 hans: An excellent suggestion; I suggest that you start at once. 12:35:55 Zhivago: i'm on it. 12:36:19 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-131-19.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:51 That's been a children TV once, right? "and if you didn't like it, then drill a hole in your knee"? Fraggels? 12:38:14 -!- Frozenlock [~user@216.113.73.34] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:38:54 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:39:24 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-165-94.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:39:24 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:39:28 sunmix [~user@49.49.133.185] has joined #lisp 12:39:43 decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has joined #lisp 12:40:15 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:40:15 -!- camurascura [~justinher@cpe-69-133-58-248.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:40:38 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 12:40:42 eno [~eno@70.137.133.209] has joined #lisp 12:40:42 -!- eno [~eno@70.137.133.209] has quit [Changing host] 12:40:42 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 12:40:51 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:41:33 -!- ngz [~user@239.242.24.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:42:14 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:43:42 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:44:10 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:44:26 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:46:04 ngz [~user@239.242.24.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:52 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-032.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:49:07 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:49:39 inaimathi [~inaimathi@bas1-toronto61-1279436984.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:51:37 eno [~eno@70.137.133.209] has joined #lisp 12:51:38 -!- eno [~eno@70.137.133.209] has quit [Changing host] 12:51:38 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 12:52:05 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:53:53 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.158.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:01:44 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:03:36 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:36 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:03:36 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:05:11 hkarlen` [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has joined #lisp 13:06:24 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:07:04 -!- hkarlen [~user@ip-85-197-171-11.c4stads.bikab.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:11:03 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:12:30 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:38 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:12:38 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:14:34 dehun [~user@djgames.com.ua] has joined #lisp 13:15:39 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-234-169-124.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 13:15:59 -!- silenius [~silenius@i59F70608.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:16:36 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-20.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:19:09 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-133-90.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:19:17 tfb [~tfb@92.40.166.202.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:19:51 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:20:25 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:26 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:27 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:21:27 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:23:57 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-032.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:27:49 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:29:21 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:21 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:29:21 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:33:49 -!- zophy [~zophy@host-5-150-220-24.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:35:35 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:37:12 benny [~benny@i577A3219.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:37:13 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:38:29 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128138144.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:40:14 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 13:40:21 myrkraverk: it's complicated enough (at least partly from codebase, not the problem), that it loses to projects other finds more interesting (or paid) 13:40:41 Perhaps we should crow found it ? 13:41:07 pjb: huh? 13:41:25 Erm? 13:41:35 lisppaste isn't dead. 13:41:44 it's been disabled. 13:41:52 Almost. Having to copy and paste urls to irc is a major bother. 13:41:55 it doesn't paste to channels anymore. 13:42:02 that's by intent. 13:42:09 ehu`: right. it is dead by intent 13:42:29 ehu`: why? 13:42:32 ehu`: but getting the blank page after creating a paste could not be by intent, right? 13:42:32 well, then why proposes pjb to write a bot to post its content to the channel? 13:42:33 ehu`: i mean, you can call it whatever you like, but to me, when a bot does not talk to any channel anymore, it is no longer living. 13:42:54 H4ns: but the point is: people were using it to spam channels. 13:43:03 ehu`: I never saw that. 13:43:03 so, it was turned off. 13:43:08 Furthermore there's the captcha. 13:43:22 somehow that didn't seem to work. 13:43:22 *|3b|* thought it got turned back on again, was there more spamming? 13:43:47 the blank page is a fail anyway. 13:43:52 definitely. 13:44:16 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:46:07 Captach aren't that good to stop spammers anyway, see http://caca.zoy.org/wiki/PWNtcha 13:46:07 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:08 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:46:08 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:46:13 captcha* 13:47:29 well, current lisppaste captcha was quite good, because it drops all headless clients that use only OCR 13:50:31 p_l: uh maybe, but the altdiv is quite easy. 13:51:02 « What do you get when you multiply X by Y? » 13:51:10 daimrod: yes, but many-a-spammer doesn't have STUDENT loaded ;) 13:52:21 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:52:36 indeed 13:52:40 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128138144.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 13:54:00 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:00 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:54:00 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 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[~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:48 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:42:48 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:44:09 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.16.149.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:44:09 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has joined #lisp 15:45:07 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.27.83] has joined #lisp 15:45:10 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-124-079.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:33 -!- savant__ [~js@67.208.188.68] has quit [Quit: restart in screen] 15:50:40 -!- bioevolgenec [~dgkontopo@ppp-94-69-147-250.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:50:41 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.27.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:50:46 paul0 [~paul0@187.112.71.53] has joined #lisp 15:51:15 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 15:51:51 bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@ppp-94-69-147-250.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:52:02 is Xach here today? 15:52:16 *Xach* nods 15:52:21 hello xach 15:52:32 *Xach* waves 15:52:38 I was just wondering, what are your criteria for including a project? 15:52:42 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 15:52:43 Art0007 [~user@84.23.63.103] has joined #lisp 15:53:33 sysop_fb [~fb@108-66-160-34.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:56 It has to build 15:53:56 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:53:59 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-kvxakaufbmcqhfcz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:53:59 That's pretty much it 15:54:12 Inclusion in quicklisp is not a badge of quality 15:54:14 loke: it depends whether you want to be listed in the QL Platinum Premium Program(TM) 15:54:15 For what lisps? 15:54:35 loke: SBCL is the most important. I stronly prefer that libraries not be SBCL-only. 15:54:44 Xach: I'm getting closer to the point of me wanting to offer CL-GDATA to QL. 15:55:12 sweet 15:55:18 However, because of its dependence on XPATH, I've only got it to run on SBCL and CCL 15:55:46 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:46 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:55:46 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:55:53 (I haven't tested on CMU, Allegro or LW though) 15:56:42 I really woul dlike it to run properly on ABCL as well, but for that one, not only Xpath is a problem. It also requires Closer-MOP 15:57:32 loke: It's getting there: http://abcl-dev.blogspot.com/2012/01/closing-in-on-closer-mop-in-abcl-110.html 15:57:44 sellout: I know. And I'm very happy about it :-) 15:57:52 I have another project that needs it too 15:57:56 loke: do you have allegro available? While I'm doing the project, I guess do test runs of open-source libs in Allegro on the side 15:58:03 xpath is still a pain in the arse though 15:58:18 loke: I have a project with the same problem. Excited to get it working. But I need ECL to fix define-method-combination 15:59:10 -!- msponge [~msponge@30-6-25.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: msponge] 15:59:52 Ah. ECL... That one has the funnies xpath problem of them all... Condition of type: STREAM-DECODING-ERROR 15:59:52 decoding error on stream # (:EXTERNAL-FORMAT (:UTF-8 :LF)): the octet sequence (191) cannot be decoded. 16:00:29 -!- klutometis [klutometis@pdpc/supporter/professional/klutometis] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:00:34 The code that triggers it looks like this: 16:00:34 (#.(apply #'format nil "([^~C-~C~C-~C~C-~C][\\w-.]*)" 16:00:35 ;; some checking to make sure the first character looks at least 16:00:35 ;; a bit like a NCNameStartChar, so that numbers and operators 16:00:35 ;; won't get mistaken for an NCName. 16:00:35 (mapcar #'code-char '(#x000 #x40 #x5B #x60 #x7B #xbf))) 16:00:36 (name) 16:00:38 (unless (nc-name-p name) 16:00:40 (xpath-error "not an NCName: ~A" name)) 16:00:42 (values :ncname name)) 16:00:44 Oops 16:00:45 loke: don't paste in the channel 16:00:46 sorry for the horrible paste 16:00:48 I know 16:00:56 *hefner* long had the irrational fear that the pressure of people trying to run every random CL library on ECL would distort it into something he didn't want to use anymore 16:00:57 It looked like only two lines when I cut it 16:01:16 hefner: there's always ManKai Common Lisp 16:01:26 hefner: you behind ECL? 16:01:27 *hefner* wonders if it still builds reliably with threads and unicode disabled 16:01:34 loke: nope, just an occasional user. 16:01:38 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:01:38 Ah 16:01:50 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:24 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 16:02:28 Xach: that's interesting, I hadn't heard of that one. 16:02:28 Closer-MOP doesn't work properly on CLISP, does it? 16:02:32 Indecipherable_ [~IceChat77@41.30.195.63] has joined #lisp 16:03:03 hefner: ManKai was iirc some misaimed fork of ECL 16:03:09 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:03:12 hefner: I don't think it got any traction or updates, but I haven't really checked. 16:03:31 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:03:33 Is there a CL IRC Framework I can use (I know of CL-irc) 16:03:34 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.254.38] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:03:40 msponge [~msponge@30-6-25.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 16:03:49 Indecipherable_: you can update cl-irc 16:03:53 cl-irc is the only one I know. 16:04:12 Oh... 16:04:14 There is something called trivial-irc too? 16:04:28 loke: no. cl-irc. 16:04:40 I just did a system-apropos for "irc" and got both 16:04:41 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:42 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:04:42 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:04:45 -!- kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:04:47 loke: I think there was something other than cl-irc, but it got even less love 16:04:47 oh. 16:05:06 yeah, trivial-irc 16:05:09 I thought someone here was recently working on a new IRC library 16:05:19 hefner: isn't everybody? :-) 16:05:21 afk, meeting 16:05:23 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:26 I wrote mine in Java 10 years ago :-) 16:05:30 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:49 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-234-169-124.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:05:54 hefner: any idea what's wrong with cl-irc? 16:06:31 -!- msponge [~msponge@30-6-25.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 16:06:47 ehu`: Don't know, sorry. I didn't think anything was wrong with it. 16:06:57 *loke* is testing BEIRC right now... My god CLIM applications are terrible. 16:07:11 bjotor42_ [~bjotor@essn-4db62602.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:13 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.216.238] has joined #lisp 16:07:38 Or perhaps it's just this one 16:09:17 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:09:41 decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has joined #lisp 16:09:54 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:54 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:09:54 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:12:19 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@109.33.112.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:13:43 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-47-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 16:14:10 -!- karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:14:34 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 16:15:12 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:16:04 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:17:27 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 16:19:55 teaforthecat [~user@205.215.203.2] has joined #lisp 16:20:08 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-58-225.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:20:28 xan_ [~xan@130.162-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 16:20:49 rvrebane [~rvrebane@78-28-98-186.cdma.dyn.kou.ee] has joined #lisp 16:22:53 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:23:46 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-125.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:25:37 karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:27:01 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:27:24 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.112.6] has joined #lisp 16:28:04 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:29:03 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:03 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:29:03 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:30:36 -!- Indecipherable_ [~IceChat77@41.30.195.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:33:25 -!- vervic [~vervic@chello080109071009.14.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: vervic] 16:35:23 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:36:57 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:58 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:36:58 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:39:03 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-89-136.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 16:41:33 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:41:52 Xach: what is your position on singificant API changes between released? 16:41:59 releases 16:42:39 I don't think I have one. 16:43:04 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:44:49 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:45:00 Xach: what about documentation? 16:45:04 zophy [~zophy@host-5-150-220-24.midco.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:12 Patterngazer [~Patternga@globulon.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:16 -!- vantage|work [~chatzilla@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0/20120129021758]] 16:46:07 loke: you mean as a requirement for inclusion in Quicklisp? 16:46:31 Yeah 16:46:39 loke: There should be a :description in the .asd file and a readme and the more documentation the better. 16:46:57 OK, I'll write some then 16:46:58 :-) 16:47:03 I'll let you know 16:47:11 By the way. This is incredibly cool: http://webdemo.visionobjects.com/equation.html?locale=default 16:47:11 -!- dehun [~user@djgames.com.ua] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:34 goldenlight [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-zoxuxehyrkhndfll] has joined #lisp 16:50:27 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.112.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:52:35 loke, indeed, it's quite cool.. ! 16:52:57 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:30 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Offline] 16:55:14 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-20.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:55:51 -!- maxm [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:56:13 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:20 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:56:59 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:57:28 ahhhh defgeneric doesn't indent this properly 16:57:36 why is it so much easier to access the system interface through C than it is through most other normally compiled languages? 16:57:39 (defgeneric foo (bar) (:method :around (bar) ...)) 16:57:48 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 16:58:13 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-20.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:58:23 phao: because "the system interface" is specified in the c language. 16:58:26 Hmm, there is Emacs Lisp eval bot in #emacs. What would be a good / the best way to implement similar safe CL sandbox? I got this idea: read the sexp from string, walk it recursively and re-intern all symbols to some SANDBOX package. How would you do it? 16:58:34 brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has joined #lisp 16:58:46 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:46 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:58:46 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:58:54 dtw: this comes up every other day. there is no way to safely sandbox arbitrary cl code. 16:59:02 dtw: no way. you can stop thinking about this. 16:59:05 -!- teaforthecat [~user@205.215.203.2] has left #lisp 16:59:10 H4ns, and why is easier to specify it in C than it is in lisp (for example)? 16:59:41 I mean, could I (without major compilations) built a lisp system interface? 16:59:49 phao: it is not easier, but it is the way that it is done. the reason is that most current operating systems are written in c. 17:00:01 antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-uojkbwhvutzqogdk] has joined #lisp 17:00:03 H4ns, I don't plan to do it and I don't think thinking is bad. 17:00:16 phao: you could write a system in lisp, then specifying the system interface in lisp would be easy. 17:00:36 dtw: ok. you may want to look into the #lisp logs to learn why it won't work 17:00:36 Hmm, but the system interface doesn't have to be written in the same language as the s ystem, I think. 17:00:44 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.249] has joined #lisp 17:01:19 phao: it's an illusion. the interface *is* the system. 17:01:22 phao: true. it does not have to be that way, but it is easier. 17:01:23 I thought there was some mechanism for "communication" between program&OS, and the system interface only bridged that gap. 17:01:30 Hmmmmm 17:01:32 right. 17:01:40 dtw: thinking isn't bad, but it gets asked a lot, and there isn't a way without effectively rewriting CL as something that's not CL. remember you can make the reader eval things, etc. your best bet would be a restricted read-only VM where you restart the lisp when someone screws it up 17:01:58 phao: in vms, we had a system interface that was language agnostic, and dec's own languages had proprietary extensions to make it easy to work with that interface 17:02:08 phao: but vms is dead. 17:02:27 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 17:02:39 windows and linux don't work that way? 17:02:47 loke: cool. it is interesting to connect it with maxima to produce calculation. 17:02:52 -!- xan_ [~xan@130.162-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:03:10 phao: linux inherits the api from unix, which is specified in terms of c functions and constants. 17:03:32 phao: the windows api is language agnostic. 17:03:41 Hmm 17:03:47 Ok. Thx H4ns 17:03:48 phao: (although it is designed to be easily usable from c) 17:04:23 oGMo, well, OK. You are probably tired of discussing this. I was thinking about safe subset of CL, of course: *read-eval*=nil. Re-intern symbols to SANDBOX-package and maybe remove untrusted sexps before eval. But OK. I'll shut up and use Google. 17:04:35 inaimathi [~inaimathi@bas1-toronto61-1279436984.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:04:43 -!- inaimathi [~inaimathi@bas1-toronto61-1279436984.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 17:05:05 ddp [~ddp@otwbsc02.oceanic.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:29 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-pwexcmmxqmoltdvy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:05:38 H4ns: it could be worse. Macos API's used to be Pascal 17:05:50 dtw: use the #lisp logs. we discussed this at length a few days ago 17:05:58 H4ns: it was (when I did that, 10+ years ago) also very nice to use from straight asm, actually. 17:06:36 pkhuong: My impression is that works ok as long as you don't have to cooperate with other stuff very much. 17:06:42 cooperate/coordinate 17:07:37 Xach: right, the OS stuff itself was nice. The rest was definitely C, or even C++, oriented. 17:08:59 Many years ago I got a patch from dtc (by way of rtoym) for doing direct syscalls in SBCL, and it was pretty straightforward. 17:09:07 (for linux/x86) 17:09:14 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:09:26 yeah, that's changed as well. 17:10:04 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:10:12 libc and linux syscalls evolve in a very tightly-bound fashion. For instance, stuff like gettimeofday read from a shared user/kernel page. 17:10:54 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:10:57 neat. 17:11:22 Unix systems tend not to be as modular as the design overview implies. 17:11:40 hefner: There's at least one verification dude who doesn't find that "neat"; it makes replaying program traces surprisingly non-deterministic. 17:12:06 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 9.0.1/20111220165912]] 17:12:20 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-029.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:12:45 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:46 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:12:46 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:13:14 pkhuong: seems naive to expect that to work well without being willing to hack up the underlying system anyway. 17:13:20 cl-irc works, but it's a bit strange. 17:13:25 foo 17:13:52 sorry. bogged down in the scrollback by accident. 17:14:19 *hefner* actually had a recent fascination with organizing things around fully deterministic boxes of computation 17:14:37 hefner: functional programming? 17:15:05 oGMo: I was in a systems programming mindset at the time, screwing around on bare x86 hardware. 17:15:21 maxm- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 17:15:22 oGMo: but sure, essentially. 17:15:37 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:15:50 it's nice because you can declare your language mathematically perfect and make the programmer do all the work ;) 17:17:17 *splittist* hearts slime-selector 17:17:53 *Neronus* always seems to get restarts and handlers wrong 17:20:50 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:21:00 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-125.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:22:30 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-wvqukoalosaxrwnc] has joined #lisp 17:22:40 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:41 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:22:41 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:23:01 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:23:20 Ah, no I don't. It's just that handler-case doesn't do what I expect it to do 17:23:48 yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has joined #lisp 17:24:07 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-20.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:25:09 -!- Guest28547 [~root@li129-64.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:25:38 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-125.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 17:26:03 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-041.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:26:28 -!- cnl [~cnl@94.231.123.31] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:26:37 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-029.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:26:46 camurascura [~justinher@cpe-69-133-58-248.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:03 -!- vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:29:38 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:31:33 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:33 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:31:34 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:32:20 -!- jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has left #lisp 17:32:29 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:32:42 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 17:34:38 -!- brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:35:51 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-401672.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:35:58 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:36:09 Guest28547 [~root@li129-64.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:22 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 17:37:17 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:38:10 -!- ddp [~ddp@otwbsc02.oceanic.net] has quit [Quit: ddp] 17:38:19 -!- BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:38:29 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:38:45 joast [~rick@98.145.65.117] has joined #lisp 17:39:00 alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-249.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:06 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:40:27 eno [~eno@70.137.133.209] has joined #lisp 17:40:27 -!- eno [~eno@70.137.133.209] has quit [Changing host] 17:40:27 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:42:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:42:50 jdz [~jdz@host62-107-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:42:58 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-041.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:44:06 ddp [~ddp@otwbsc02.oceanic.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:24 -!- drwho [~drwho@56-34-237-24.gci.net] has quit [Quit: be back later] 17:45:07 -!- compj [~compj@p54BF4E8F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: compj] 17:45:35 jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 17:47:14 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 17:47:29 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:47:45 BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:21 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:21 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:49:21 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:50:46 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.249] has quit [Quit: Offline] 17:50:51 -!- splittist [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:52:57 -!- ngz [~user@239.242.24.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:53:16 astalla [~alessio@dynamic-adsl-94-36-54-80.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 17:53:30 H4ns, I was hoping that #lisp logs would have actual reasons about this impossibility of sandboxing. Basically there was just a statement that it's not possible. I trust that but would like to understand. 17:53:59 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:56:36 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:57:00 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:57:05 dtw: 1. you need to prevent the reader from allowing package-qualified symbols, 2. eval-read needs to be disabled, 3. the library has to be culled for any symbols that can find or iterate over packages (this includes the entire LOOP facility), 4. There are no facilities for limiting CPU/memory usage except OS-level, 5. CL allows you to redefine everything already accessible 17:57:06 to name a few 17:57:28 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 17:57:39 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:58:13 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 17:58:41 I guess there's also the issue of filesystem access, network access, etc. CL doesn't really put any effort into stopping you from getting at this -- or heck, in the case of SBCL, of injecting arbitrary assembly into the running image. 17:59:10 brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has joined #lisp 17:59:17 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:17 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:59:17 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:00:52 sykopomp, thank you. So a sandbox package has only things like LET, + and - and sequence manipulation stuff. Safe? 18:00:53 hkarlen [~user@c83-254-165-239.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:01:12 <_schulte_> dtw: you could always pass code to an image running in a VM... may be the only safe option 18:01:20 dtw: no 18:01:47 or just in a regular sandbox. I don't think you need a vm, but I don't know how to set up jails and the like. 18:02:49 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.216.238] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 18:03:09 <_schulte_> true, I just don't know how to do chroot stuff and find a VM to be easier 18:03:42 You need to restrict access to all potentially dangerous symbols. That leaves you with a pretty crippled CL, but then you can reintroduce sandboxed versions of some of the functions you blacklisted. 18:03:49 -!- finnrobi [~robb@xvm-20-190.ghst.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:04:16 dtw: like i said, you also need to prevent the reader from accepting package-qualified symbols 18:04:33 and even then, you're not protected from things like infinite loops, excessive memory usage, etc. 18:05:17 koltar [~koltar123@70.150.177.5] has joined #lisp 18:07:22 sykopomp, yes. Why is it importat to prevent reader from from interning symbols to other packages? It wouldn't be evaluated before symbols are converted and untrusted types are removed. (Yes. loops can be used for denial of service.) 18:07:38 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:07:53 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 18:08:25 evalbot: (cl::open "/etc/passwd") 18:08:50 ah, I guess you plan on scrubbing all input, instead of just creating a package to evaluate stuff in. 18:09:45 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.166.202.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 18:10:37 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:11:01 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:11:03 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:11:19 sykopomp, well, this is just a thought exercise. Traverse the input sexp recursively and re-intern every symbol to sandbox package and remove untrusted object types. A small subset of CL would still be useful sometimes, but is there still a fundamental leak somewhere? 18:12:07 dtw: you still have memory and CPU issues, and now you're dealing with a severely-crippled CL 18:12:16 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:17 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:12:17 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:12:19 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 18:12:39 ysph [~user@mobile-166-147-124-046.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:55 allowing symbol interning can also be a denial-of-service, since symbols do not get garbage collected 18:12:56 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-227-48.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:09 the compiler is likely not written to consider the programmer as an adversary, either. 18:13:41 hefner, ERROR: False assertion 18:14:00 oh, fuck off. 18:14:10 -!- decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has quit [Quit: füniküli fünikülaaa tafra yapma ya füniküli fünikülaa] 18:15:31 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-131-19.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:15:51 would be fun to see how a simple stack overflow vulnerability and exploit translated to different CL implementations, e.g. declare a byte vector with dynamic extent, safety 0, intentionally overflow it and make the exploit work. 18:18:55 msponge [~msponge@30-6-25.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 18:18:58 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 18:21:35 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:22:27 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:23:38 phao_ [phao@177.77.180.192] has joined #lisp 18:24:14 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:15 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:24:15 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:26:08 vairav [~vairav@209.49.23.82] has joined #lisp 18:26:49 -!- koltar [~koltar123@70.150.177.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:26:53 finnrobi [~robb@xvm-20-190.ghst.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:28 -!- phao [phao@187.91.173.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:32:21 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:33:52 TDT [~user@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 18:34:09 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:10 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:34:10 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:35:26 -!- Art0007 [~user@84.23.63.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:32 Ralith [~ralith@static-209-139-215-92.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:14 sellout [~Adium@c-50-134-130-65.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:20 splittist [b2c6684a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.198.104.74] has joined #lisp 18:42:22 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:43:32 hey all. I'm thinking of cl-soap a bit, and it hasn't been updated in 6 years. Also not installable by quicklisp. It seems .. well, old. I read that cl-xml has a contributed soap module, but haven't used it yet. I could use cl-python to use their soap module (which is MUCH easier to use it seems, or at least better documented than the cl-xml option). Anyone make a lot of soap calls any more? If so, are these the only two libraries 18:43:32 available? 18:44:04 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:04 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:44:04 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:44:26 *Xach* does not make soap calls 18:44:31 people don't make a lot of soap calls anymore 18:45:33 The syscall API is not closer to C than to any other programming language. Granted, it uses (unsigned-byte 32) instead of fixnum, or integer, but that's about it. In both cases you need an assembly stub to do a syscall. 18:45:33 Yeah...I'm not fond of having to do this either. Rather it be REST, I have stuff written for that already. Need to relate gene names to GPCR, and their interface is soap to do this. 18:46:05 The point is that most compilers will use the libc instead of doing syscalls directly, assumedly because libc is more stable and portable than syscalls. 18:47:07 TDT: since you're already dealing with lovecraftian horrors, write xslt to translate REST into SOAP and back? ;) 18:50:21 hrm, slime-implementations should (does?) support remote lisps 18:51:06 "slime-lisp-implementations" 18:51:35 Running CL in a chroot jail is severely crippling too. If the chroot jail is well done, you don't have access to files, to network, etc. 18:51:45 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 18:51:52 -!- ysph [~user@mobile-166-147-124-046.mycingular.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51:58 pjb: is that good or bad? 18:52:16 better to have a MAC system running, and use fine grained permissions 18:52:17 Depends on what you want. If you want to provide an eval bot, it's good to cripple CL. 18:52:21 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:52:57 By the same token, resource management and limitation is also crippling CL. limits(1) anybody? 18:53:12 pjb: i was considering what it would take for something like containers (insecure) or xen (better) to securely run remote code, and you could firewall things so it could only talk to the original host, for instance .. pretty handy, if it scaled 18:53:57 oGMo: just having your own restricted CL implementation running on a controled VM (access, time and space) is enough. 18:53:58 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:58 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:53:58 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:54:08 "remote" = "untrusted", but if you wanted to distribute apps and run them locally, browser-style ... 18:54:28 pjb: "restricted CL implementation"? 18:54:46 hefner: somebody tested a few years ago various implementations with stack overflows. Results weren't pretty (ie. not a lot of implementations could catch the error and recover from it). 18:55:18 oGMo: ie. instead of accessing file on the hosting file system, they would restrict file access to the VM file system. 18:55:19 if the VM is secure, you should be good with unrestricted CL (though the hosted app could obviously kill its VM) 18:55:26 pjb: interesting, but unsurprising. 18:55:41 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 18:55:43 pjb: I remember something like that, but the thing I remember was simple out-of-memory conditions. 18:55:46 pjb: oh, of course. the guest VM would have zero access to the host 18:55:54 hefner: it would be good to do it again, to see how things progressed, and indeed, to include additionnal tests, in various SAFETY levels. 18:56:38 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Client Quit] 18:57:07 But my point, is that you need to implement your own CL to do a secure eval bot, one way or another. Because when you draw from one little chunk of CL, you get the whole. 18:57:15 yeah unfortunately restricting something like SBCL to a 16MB (or even 256MB) VM isn't really realistic .. need something much tighter 18:57:32 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 18:58:08 If you run CL in a VM, you have CLoud computing. 18:58:11 Which doesn't prevent you to write it in CL. 18:58:36 Aethaeryn: is there any CL implementation that you can retarget to a random VM in an afternoon? 18:58:53 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 18:59:02 why wouldn't any lisp run in a reasonably complete VM? 18:59:15 in an afternoon? 18:59:22 pjb: I think CLoud would be a good name for whoever makes it 18:59:38 it's not hard to boot up a xen VM and install sbcl in an afternoon 18:59:44 The point is that we don't have a retargetable VL implementation. Implementing a backend to existing implementation still looks like a major enterprise. 18:59:56 oGMo: if you really need it, I can set up a MAC environment for you as well :) 19:00:04 (Mandatory Access Control) 19:00:11 p_l: not familiar 19:00:17 aasasd [~nigrbrd@203-219-13-238.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 19:00:19 oGMo: last time I booted Xen, I had full access to the network and to the disks. 19:00:28 pjb: but that's only because it's configured that way 19:00:29 oGMo: basically, a fine-grained permission system 19:00:35 LEARN LISP 19:00:36 -!- aasasd [~nigrbrd@203-219-13-238.static.tpgi.com.au] has left #lisp 19:00:53 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.156.9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:04 p_l: ah 19:01:24 oGMo: also, permission checking is mandatory, for the whole OS, no bypasses 19:02:02 p_l: interesting, is this linux? sounds like SEL i think 19:02:15 -!- phao_ is now known as phao 19:02:17 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:02:18 SELinux *is* a MAC system, but not the only one 19:02:23 k 19:02:34 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:02:42 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@host184.186-109-1.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:02:47 (and being hard to setup) 19:03:27 LiamH: any merge timeline for fsbv? 19:03:44 -!- brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:03:50 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 19:04:11 oGMo: I defer to Luis on that. There are a few open issues I'm working on. 19:04:21 LiamH: ah k 19:04:28 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:04:56 jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@arh2459.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 19:05:20 oGMo: http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/cffi-devel/2011-December/003634.html 19:05:52 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@244.31.201.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:05:55 eno [~eno@70.137.133.209] has joined #lisp 19:05:55 -!- eno [~eno@70.137.133.209] has quit [Changing host] 19:05:55 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:06:37 I've solved a few of those issues, as you can see from the recent commits on the fsbv branch. A few more that I think I'm capable of solving, and then a couple I'll leave to luis. 19:07:03 interesting 19:07:28 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 19:08:11 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:08:49 i've whipped up a XCB/XcbXlib wrapper in hopes of lisp-friendly direct-render GLX and Xlib compatibility .. but depends on by-value struct/union stuff for a lot of things (the xcb API isn't great) 19:09:13 works so far with cffi-fsbv though 19:09:36 -!- splittist [b2c6684a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.198.104.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:10:52 brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has joined #lisp 19:11:17 -!- hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:11:23 oGMo: good. I should add that any contributions to cffi-fsbv are welcome. 19:11:34 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:12:32 heh, i'm still waiting for my bitfield optimizations to be merged :P 19:14:23 Frozenlock [~user@216.113.73.34] has joined #lisp 19:15:09 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:16:34 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 19:16:50 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:50 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:16:50 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:17:10 krake [~krake@pC19F7E14.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:22 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:50 Indecipherable_ [~IceChat77@41.31.64.222] has joined #lisp 19:21:42 Is there A Shen/Qi tutorial in PDF format? If not, can you please point me to any other tutorial? 19:22:29 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:23:44 oGMo: oh, that's you, then you know about the release process. One other thing we'll need to do is merge fsbv into the other changes, you can see where I branched off of master the last time, and there have been changes since then that have not been tested with cffi-fsbv. 19:25:41 -!- TDT [~user@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:26:32 ah, i probably haven't pulled from master in awhile either 19:28:26 Indecipherable, have you been at shenlanguage.org? 19:29:19 -!- maxm- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:30:15 TDT [~user@dhcpw267c56ed.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 19:30:40 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:31:06 TDT` [~user@dhcpw267c56ed.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 19:31:23 I am going to learn from the bascis, but the tutorial is not in a very readable format, being that it's 400 pages consisting of images on each page 19:31:46 -!- TDT [~user@dhcpw267c56ed.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:31:46 -!- TDT` [~user@dhcpw267c56ed.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:09 maxm-- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:09 -!- maxm-- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 19:32:20 maxm-- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 19:33:09 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:33:39 Alfred [~Alfred@93-41-213-58.ip83.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:33:57 sergey [~sergey@217.77.215.165] has joined #lisp 19:34:05 -!- Alfred [~Alfred@93-41-213-58.ip83.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp 19:34:54 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:54 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:34:54 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:35:56 You're talking about 'Functional programming in Qi' book but there is a tutorial on that site. And I suspect that Shen/Qi is an offtopic here. There is #shen channel. 19:35:59 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:36:01 osa1 [~sinan@78.179.76.15] has joined #lisp 19:41:03 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:41:13 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: +++ATH0] 19:41:37 splittist [b2c6684a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.198.104.74] has joined #lisp 19:41:46 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-26.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:42:48 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:49 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:42:49 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:43:04 -!- bjotor42_ [~bjotor@essn-4db62602.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:43:15 Xach: that hosting bill is crazy. Have you considered starting a serious donation drive so you can keep hosting quicklisp? 19:45:04 lol 19:45:09 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:45:53 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:21 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 19:48:22 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-50-134-130-65.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:50:00 Trystam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 19:51:09 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:51:47 speaking of Xach, i assume practical common lisp is a good book to start with? :P 19:52:32 yes 19:52:44 I also like Gentle Intro if you're not well-versed in another programming language. 19:52:54 -!- Trystam is now known as Tristam 19:53:48 sykopomp: There are some alternatives for hosting, e.g. http://osuosl.org/ donates hosting for a lot of projects (e.g. kernel.org or phpBB) 19:53:58 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:54:31 -!- krake [~krake@pC19F7E14.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 19:54:35 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.137.100] has joined #lisp 19:54:35 Aethaeryn: https://twitter.com/#!/quicklisp 19:54:42 latest one 19:55:08 sykopomp: oh 19:55:37 I used to use Amazon for stuff 19:55:39 er, wow, that's impressive 19:55:48 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:49 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:55:49 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:55:52 And yes, sometimes it'd be that cheap (especially with the year free trial thing) 19:56:01 Illiux [~nol@mc-resnet-wireless-68-36.net.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 19:56:08 rgrau_` [~user@99.Red-83-43-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:11 I thought it cost more than that to have an idle server 19:56:19 dlowe: s3, not ec2 19:56:23 ah 19:56:30 For a year, Amazon EC2 is $0 except just bandwidth. S3 too, probably. 19:56:30 not sure what cloudfront is 19:56:37 Trystam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 19:57:03 cloudfront is amazon's CDN 19:57:18 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:57:27 meaning, you can tell it "distribute this stuff of mine from S3", and it loads it into servers in various regions to speed up distribution. 19:57:45 Not just S3, I think, but it integrates well with S3 19:58:07 sykopomp: Millions of people don't use quicklisp yet? 19:58:19 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@m212-96-64-229.cust.tele2.kz] has joined #lisp 19:58:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@m212-96-64-229.cust.tele2.kz] has quit [Changing host] 19:58:19 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 19:58:30 -!- Trystam is now known as Tristam 19:59:07 It makes Lisp so much easier. 19:59:18 It's the only way slime'd work just right on my machine. 19:59:58 saint_cypher [~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has joined #lisp 20:00:05 Aethaeryn: I don't think there are millions of lispers... 20:00:52 I don't think there's tens of thousands... 20:01:35 sykopomp: tens of thousands yes, but the community is "slightly" fragmented 20:02:26 jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 20:02:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 20:02:36 http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/12/project-download-stats-for-november.html less than 2000 ql for alexandria in November. 20:03:40 p_l: well, depends on if you count the elisp and scheme users probably. 20:03:46 -!- Patterngazer [~Patternga@globulon.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:03:53 Aethaeryn: I was thinking of CL 20:04:42 Aethaeryn: CL users are the only valid lispers. 20:04:53 the nice, helpful, active community... is under a thousand, I guess, with a lot of them talking here :D 20:07:48 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:07:51 377? 20:08:09 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:08:15 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 20:08:16 -!- Indecipherable_ [~IceChat77@41.31.64.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:09:35 376. 20:09:56 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 20:10:30 he's back! 20:10:47 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:10:56 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:10:59 sykopomp: CL users are the only valid Lispers? What aabout the "Hundred-Year Language" Arc? :-P 20:11:31 Aethaeryn: you could at least make an effort to exclude languages that don't exist. 20:11:37 or that are exclusively toy hobby languages. 20:12:10 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 20:12:16 sykopomp: It was a joke. It was amazingly hyped but from what I've seen isn't even really it's "own" language since it runs on Racket. 20:12:36 Hey, what about Clojure? :P 20:12:52 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:16 Clojure is the nicest version of Java I've seen so far 20:13:36 its not java 20:13:40 thats why 20:13:43 :D 20:13:47 dlowe: not ABCL? 20:13:56 It's inextricably intertwined with java's type system 20:13:57 ABCL is CL 20:14:04 There are a lot of lisp-related channels. #clojure #emacs #scheme #racket and probably some I can't think to check off the top of my head. 20:14:05 daimrod: ABCL is CL written in Java. 20:14:19 heh, there's even specific cl ones like #sbcl 20:14:36 Indecipherable_ [~IceChat77@41.31.6.167] has joined #lisp 20:14:44 Maybe the fragmented nature of Lisp is a good thing. 20:15:01 The fragmentation of C is really impressive, though. 20:15:11 Competition, experimentation, and individualism seem to produce better results than central planning. 20:15:59 Anything truly useful would work its way back into cl (e.g. CLOS) 20:16:14 not necessarily 20:16:21 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:16:25 but we can generally approximate, for the most part. 20:17:56 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:56 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:17:56 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 20:18:39 I just hope that the first strong AI is written in Lisp rather than Java. :-/ 20:18:55 doubt that'll happen 20:19:00 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-146-74.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:08 sykopomp: doubt which? 20:19:20 that it would be in Lisp 20:19:53 I got the impression in uni that Lisp was sort of a dirty word in (at least some) CS departments these days. 20:20:02 so is AI 20:20:17 Instead of AI there's lots of subsets like "machine learning" that get funding where AI doesn't. 20:20:25 Early AI researchers overpromised and underdelivered. 20:20:57 sykopomp: it's still used in Psychology departments worldwide 20:21:00 This probably has to do with the fact that something like "intelligence" is really hard to define. 20:21:07 get a blog 20:21:11 anon119 [~androirc@c-98-252-67-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:39 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-20.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:23:58 sykopomp: dirty in the sense of "damn, I long for those times" 20:24:00 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.179.76.15] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:08 compj [~compj@p54BF4E8F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:24:51 Idk... Programming languages are tending toward Lisp. 20:25:51 They're getting less and less C-like and more and more Lisp-like. 20:26:00 -!- Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has quit [Quit: Life is too short] 20:26:14 SQL borrowed features from Prolog/Datalog, but that doesn't mean it is turning into one of them 20:26:17 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:26:24 Aethaeryn: austinh had a good suggestion above. 20:26:32 Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has joined #lisp 20:26:48 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 20:26:49 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-26.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:27:50 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:50 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:27:50 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 20:28:18 *splittist* loves that CL has things like logcount 20:28:36 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:28:50 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:29:18 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 20:31:34 *Xach* uses the bitmashing a lot 20:33:04 lakkris [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:30 -!- lakkris [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:33:30 lakkris [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 20:33:42 -!- coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:33:46 -!- lakkris is now known as coyo 20:35:03 I'm slightly surprised that no-one's talked, in the light of Jorge Tavares' blog about sorting, about O(n) implementations of sort on bitvectors 20:35:29 Is it stable soft? :-) 20:35:33 s/soft/sort/ 20:36:02 it can be as stable as you desire 20:37:51 inaimathi [~inaimathi@bas1-toronto61-1279436984.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:39:38 a 79% stable sort, i desire 20:41:06 -!- phao [phao@177.77.180.192] has left #lisp 20:43:47 -!- Arrdem [~reid@wireless-128-62-38-186.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:44:33 -!- anon119 [~androirc@c-98-252-67-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:46:44 superflit [~superflit@71-208-210-4.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:20 -!- neena [~neena@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:48:59 neena [~neena@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 20:50:24 -!- Indecipherable_ [~IceChat77@41.31.6.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:54:40 -!- neena [~neena@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:55:28 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:55:32 -!- sergey [~sergey@217.77.215.165] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:55:41 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:27 -!- jdz [~jdz@host62-107-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:57:18 Arrdem [~reid@resnet-46-120.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 20:58:50 tfb_ [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:06 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 21:00:12 Patterngazer [~Patternga@globulon.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:26 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:45 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-227-48.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 21:01:00 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-227-48.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:16 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.134.199] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.4.1] 21:01:44 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 21:02:29 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:04:18 cabaire [~nobody@xdsl-78-35-186-27.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:05:02 Why is it that I can never type nconc correctly the first time? :( 21:05:12 -!- Patterngazer [~Patternga@globulon.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Quit: I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder.] 21:05:25 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:05:37 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:07:11 Illiux: wrong muscle memory. 21:08:41 Illiux: Deep down, you really just want to type append 21:09:24 dlowe++ 21:09:48 neena [~neena@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 21:11:10 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 21:13:02 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:13:14 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:14:36 -!- ddp [~ddp@otwbsc02.oceanic.net] has quit [Quit: ddp] 21:16:30 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 21:17:23 Adamant [~Adamant@71-22-233-28.gar.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:23 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@71-22-233-28.gar.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:17:23 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 21:18:16 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Client Quit] 21:18:41 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 21:18:55 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:11 If I'm writing graphical applications in Lisp, what should I use? Something like GTK? And what is the best way to handle Unicode? I find the problem with Lisp isn't that it doesn't support X, but that it's hard to decide which X implementation to use. 21:19:52 -!- Illiux [~nol@mc-resnet-wireless-68-36.net.pitt.edu] has quit [Quit: Illiux] 21:21:45 -!- neena [~neena@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:21:55 Aethaeryn: I tend to prefer things that are in Quicklisp, just because they're the easiest for users to acquire. 21:22:15 Aethaeryn: Are you going to write a program to sell? 21:22:25 Illiux [~nol@mc-resnet-wireless-68-36.net.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 21:22:26 Aethaeryn: If so, LispWorks with CAPI seems like the thing to use. 21:22:37 sellout: Yes. Quicklisp seems to have been the best way to do slime after several different attempts myself to get it. 21:22:59 -!- Arrdem [~reid@resnet-46-120.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Quit: Arrdem] 21:23:55 Xach: no, I'm writing it for personal use. 21:24:20 Aethaeryn: Then why write a GUI? ;) 21:24:38 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:24:42 sellout: I'm replacing GNOME on my own machines with something suited for my own personal workflow. 21:24:49 Aethaeryn: ltk seems to have a low barrier to entry, then. 21:25:05 Aethaeryn: The people I know who do serious projects in something other than CAPI seem to use CommonQt at the moment. 21:25:28 sellout: All the major desktop environments are working toward touch-friendly newbie-friendly environments. I want something that absolutely doesn't get in my way. The only way to guaruntee that is for me to design it myself. 21:25:34 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d011f77.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:15 Aethaeryn: do you know Stumpwm? 21:26:24 why isn't anyone saying CLIM??? 21:26:40 Quadrescence: because Climacs doesn't work very well :( 21:26:45 :( 21:26:46 Quadrescence: Haha  good one. 21:26:50 RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:27:01 daimrod: I don't want to learn another window manager, I want to learn cl, and the best way to do it is to write from scratch (well with libraries too) an application that fills a real need. 21:27:08 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:08 *sellout* actually used clim-desktop for a while  wonder if I could get it working again. 21:27:11 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 21:27:31 sellout, hey! I wrote a database editor in CLIM 21:28:06 Quadrescence: mcclim? 21:28:19 daimrod: Besides, most desktops (even GNOME in some areas) break in some way on two-screen setups 21:28:22 it was LispWork's CLIM 21:28:41 Aethaeryn: Stumpwm is written in CL. 21:28:49 Aethaeryn: stumpwm is not just window manager, stumpwm is like workflow 21:28:56 *p_l* ended up not getting a license for Allegro CLIM 21:29:03 p_l, :( 21:29:25 we are going with Web UI anyway 21:29:32 for example, I control mpd using stumpwm mpd client module 21:30:19 asvil`: And I'm sure stumpwm is better than anything I could ever write. That's not the point. 21:30:34 neena [~neena@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 21:31:01 The point is that I have a problem (the desktops increasingly tend toward being impressive and in-your-way instead of out-of-your-way) and I can use this problem to learn a new language that seems interesting. 21:31:10 Quadrescence: is clim available for demo version of lispworks? 21:31:21 It's more of a learning exercise than a serious thing. 21:31:32 asvil`, I'm not suer. I only used LispWorks CLIM because it was for my job. 21:31:55 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 21:32:30 sure* 21:33:52 So is qt better implemented than gtk in cl? 21:33:56 -!- Illiux [~nol@mc-resnet-wireless-68-36.net.pitt.edu] has quit [Quit: Illiux] 21:34:25 hi 21:34:37 And would using CommonQt be in the spirit of minimalism? 21:35:10 Aethaeryn, i feel your pain. i'm still on ubuntu 11.04 because of unity AND Gnome 3 21:35:33 I want a very, very, very, very, very tiny desktop that does almost nothing at its core. Anything useful would be written as an extension. 21:36:00 not that there aren't things i could do about it, but since i don't need to upgrade, even though i usually do, i'm fine for now 21:36:01 Qt is not the best choise for lightweight. 21:36:05 jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:13 Modular is good. That way I could rewrite the early crappy things as I learn more about cl. 21:37:00 GTK is more friendly for writing bindings to bindings, but I do not know supported cl bindings. 21:37:15 I'm about to start on a project using EJB3, and it's been a long time since I touched Java. I'm reading a lot about annotations, dependency injection, etc. Other than packages, what else does CL have that helps manage really large projects? 21:37:21 So "lightweight" isn't as much my goal as modular is. 21:37:37 Or is it totally irrelevant because of CL's typing system versus Java? ;-) 21:37:41 second bindings/another than c languages 21:38:16 hmm... multiple language support would be interesting since in theory the modularity should make it possible to (if you wanted to write an addition) do stuff in other languages too 21:38:24 So I'd probably want to stick to something major like gtk 21:42:40 So what do people tend to use from http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/releases.html for gtk? There's four packages with "gtk" in their name. 21:43:44 -!- BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:43:55 cl-gtk2 the last attempt to create bindings to gtk 21:44:05 ddp [~ddp@otwbsc02.oceanic.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:35 -!- neena [~neena@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:45:58 ngz [~user@239.242.24.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:08 jmckitrick: smart programmers who are trusted by management? 21:46:55 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:47:47 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:48:10 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-125.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 21:49:45 the clx manual lacks a section 5.4 21:49:52 Aethaeryn: creating good gtk bindings is difficult. Have you try ltk? 21:51:02 -!- msponge [~msponge@30-6-25.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: msponge] 21:51:16 Aethaeryn: ltk is a tcl/tk bindings thing, which iirc is quite portable 21:51:55 Illiux [~nol@mc2-wireless-pittnet-38-192.wireless.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 21:52:35 Aethaeryn: yes, prxq is right, one of the reasons of it, because c/gtk has no "dynamic object system" as objective-c/gnustep/cocoa has. 21:52:50 prxq: Is it lightweight enough to fit the minimalism? 21:53:36 Aethaeryn: it is very lightweight compared to the gtk bindings i have seen. 21:54:25 tcl/tk is actually pretty nice 21:54:39 Okay. 21:54:50 I'll give it a try. 21:56:59 hmm, gedit has highlighting for scheme but not common lisp 21:57:46 cyphase: has it support for inferior-something? 21:57:47 cyphase: https://gist.github.com/1500882 21:59:03 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:59:24 cyphase: russian->english translation http://translate.google.by/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://cl-cad.blogspot.com/2011/12/common-lisp-gedit.html&ei=g1gsT6KhFY_zsgb-spXdDA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB4Q7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dcl-cad.blogspot.com/2011/12/common-lisp-gedit.html%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DGFS%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D638%26bih%3D900%26prmd%3Dimvns 21:59:30 cyphase: these links are about common lisp for gedit 21:59:32 Aethaeryn: If you don't need any super fancy realtime special effects, LTK is the way to go 21:59:55 jmckitrick: annotations are not about managing modularity. Dependency injection is not needed in a dynamic language, at least not as a framework, it's just keeping some discipline. 22:00:24 -!- antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-uojkbwhvutzqogdk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:01 -!- compj [~compj@p54BF4E8F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: compj] 22:04:11 jmckitrick: that said, I only do CL as a hobby, so I don't know how people cope with very big projects. ABCL is quite big, and it just uses PROVIDE/REQUIRE + autoloading + some hand-written code to load core stuff in the right order that pretty most of the time you just leave alone. 22:04:26 and it's quite manageable that way. 22:05:24 -!- rvrebane [~rvrebane@78-28-98-186.cdma.dyn.kou.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:05:42 astalla: using asdf is helpful, though. 22:06:24 sure. I use it in my own projects. abcl has it built in too, but it can't use it to bootstrap itself. 22:06:59 ah, of course not. 22:07:08 jasom: The point is to not be super fancy. 22:07:49 -!- cow-orker [~foobar@pogostick.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:07:59 it would be really nice to have gtk bindings that aren't so heavy. 22:08:31 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:08:52 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-401672.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:25 *sykopomp* learned to do html/css/js and can't imagine writing desktop applications with gtk/qt/tk. 22:09:41 or lol rolling my own with opengl or some horrid mess like that. 22:10:09 BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:11 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 22:12:09 sykopomp: yes, but then every app needs to be a server 22:12:23 *astalla* has been doing html/css/js for years (in Java though) and would love to write a desktop application for once 22:12:44 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-012.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:13:21 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 22:13:28 prxq: I guess. All the apps I've actually been involved in writing, though, besides toy games, may as well be hosted elsewhere. 22:13:39 i think the way to write good gtk bindings starts with writing a good lazy loader. 22:14:25 sykopomp: isn't that almost always the case? 22:14:32 prxq: it is too hard to "translate" gobject subclassing to clos. 22:14:58 cl-gtk2 do that, but using gclosures and cffi callbacks 22:15:09 ISF [~ivan@201.82.138.222] has joined #lisp 22:15:36 prxq: I don't know. I can't think of a lot of cases where that isn't the case, and considering how easy it is to put up a working interface using html, I'm just inclined to stick with that. 22:15:47 sykopomp: do you write web gui using common lisp or javascript?:) 22:16:26 what html/css/js do have in favor is that stuff can be made to look very good 22:16:29 asvil`: well, I can't really write client-side CL 22:17:24 I've been thinking of giving parenscript a shot, but I write my guis using html templating (I write the actual html instead of using one of those lisp dsls), and I hand-code the javascript/jquery code to make it interactive 22:17:39 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:17:53 I'll probably need something higher level as I start making it more interactive and such, but I don't mind the bits of JS I've had to write. 22:18:03 prxq: they're also *very easy* 22:18:18 and don't rely on big huge libraries that are otherwise unfamiliar to me. 22:19:43 I agree that dom/jquery the fastest way to provide good interactive interface, but web gui application has no some fundamental features, such as undo/redo framework 22:20:12 asvil`: does gtk have that? 22:20:39 sykopomp: i agree 22:20:47 I'm also inclined to avoid those web gui libraries that are all javascript 22:21:08 I worked with qooxlisp for a while, too, and wouldn't really ever code anything in it ever again. 22:21:23 bps [~bps@ip70-176-194-122.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:31 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:21:37 it turned out to be simpler, faster, and more designer-friendly to just use the basic tools :S 22:21:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-012.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:22:26 francogrex [~user@109.130.90.222] has joined #lisp 22:22:39 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-124-079.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:22:45 asvil`: