00:00:03 ddp [~ddp@216-235-107-HCC-104.hcc.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:18 ok now stupid question... is there a way to deliver an application without making ppl to install say qt by themselves? like and standalone exe? 00:01:23 Farzad: there is MSI packaging tools 00:01:40 but this is lisp... how? 00:02:11 Farzad: Probably better to learn Lisp first, then how to write a GUI and deliver it to end users. 00:02:16 the foreign libs r not included in the lisp image r they? 00:02:40 they are not usually in the exe of apps either 00:02:42 rgrau`` [~user@58.Red-83-32-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:42 dlls 00:02:57 yeah good point :D 00:03:36 but like Xach said, write cool programs first then worry about deployment 00:04:35 well i should not worry about guis cuz i'm using open source program and i live in a country of windows based pcs so never mind :P 00:04:47 -!- ejbs [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:04:58 Farzad: the answer to all your "can i do x in lisp?" questions are "yes", but you will need none of them for a long time 00:05:32 ok thanks for the help guys 00:05:49 Farzad: and there is no problem with developing opensource software in a country of windows based pcs 00:06:30 most common lisp implementations are cross platform and there are cross platform libraries for nearly every functionality you need 00:06:39 the point is i will have to do web... never an executable, gui based thing 00:06:48 Web makes it a bit easier. 00:07:58 you cant make someone install something new in my country, say qt, they want it all easy and ready, and nobody knows about lisp... really sad, i feel lonely here :D 00:08:03 You can make an executable that has a web interface. 00:08:28 (ext:shell (format nil "firefox -openurl http://localhost:~A" my-port)) 00:09:12 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 00:09:35 Farzad: if they wont install anything new then your app is going to have an uphill struggle, no? 00:09:36 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:09:41 Farzad: many people install gtk on their windows machines without even realizing it, do you remember every single library ms office setup installs on your machine? 00:10:05 guther, yes 00:10:14 kenanb, lol no 00:10:31 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:11:32 has anyone tried sbcl threads on windows? is it stable? 00:11:39 Guthur: well, the app could run on Farzad's servers. Zero installation, just click on a URL. 00:11:57 Farzad: use the windows fork for good threads. 00:12:08 yeah, everything is driving me to web 00:12:10 Farzad: I believe the fork's maintainer uses it for commercial apps. 00:12:23 pjb: ack 00:13:35 me afk 00:14:13 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 00:14:17 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:15:40 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.208.179] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 00:16:08 -!- Illiux [~nol@cl-wireless-pittnet-150-212-22-96.wireless.pitt.edu] has quit [Quit: Illiux] 00:17:12 djuber [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:10 -!- msponge [~msponge@30-7-244.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: msponge] 00:21:26 -!- stickycake [~stickycak@64.134.64.179] has quit [Quit: stickycake] 00:24:20 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:24:40 Xach: would you suggest using quickproject or is there a better alternative for project creation now? it seems cool but i haven't found any recent buzz around it 00:25:25 so i thought maybe a better alternative is around 00:25:37 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:26:01 kenanb: there's also cl-project, but don't know how one relate to the other. Just saw it the other day 00:26:05 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.212.94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:26:27 kenanb: I use quickproject. 00:26:39 -!- Irfan_A [~irfan@180.246.183.235] has left #lisp 00:27:13 z0d [~z0d@ns.htcc.hu] has joined #lisp 00:27:14 -!- z0d [~z0d@ns.htcc.hu] has quit [Changing host] 00:27:14 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 00:27:29 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.155.10.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:27:41 rgrau``: thanks, will have a look at it 00:28:21 Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.212.94] has joined #lisp 00:28:52 Xach: ok, i'll give it a try now 00:28:54 has anyone compared an implementations read write from string versus one of the binary serialization formats, such msgpack or protobug 00:29:00 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 00:29:04 protobuf* 00:29:39 anyone here use Clozure CL on Windows? I use it myself lightly, but I keep seeing people asking about Windows SBCL threading when CCL already has it. 00:30:43 DataLinkDroid: it is nice to have multiple implementations 00:31:02 What libraries to use for static web generation (as in template system, markup, etc) and for creating/drawing (png) images procedurally? 00:31:36 Xach: true, but I get the impression that these people think that SBCL is the only free threaded Lisp on Windows. 00:32:01 -!- mintsoup [~mintsoup@173-164-33-21-colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:32:15 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:18 In particular, for manipulating a lot of small png images and composing a larger ones with them. 00:32:24 Guthur: read-from-string is probably awfully slow. I'd expect a 10-100x factor on most implementations. 00:32:27 mintsoup [~mintsoup@173-164-33-21-colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:27 and SBCL threading on Windows is still alpha as far as I know 00:32:38 -!- mintsoup [~mintsoup@173-164-33-21-colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:33:05 pkhuong: would it be a similar situation for write? 00:33:16 qelsi: you mean combining them in one png image? 00:34:00 qelsi: I use vecto to draw into PNGs and ImageMagick to compose them. 00:34:04 kenanb: not exactly, but it's part of the process. It's similar to having lots of small sprites like chess figures and building PNGs for board positions. 00:34:07 DataLinkDroid: I haven't had that impression. 00:34:19 Guthur: yes. 00:34:35 Xach: thanks. 00:34:53 Xach, so you use threading on SBCL Windows frequently? 00:35:37 DataLinkDroid: so you experience crashes frequently? 00:35:42 DataLinkDroid: no. 00:36:46 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:37:19 theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.155.10.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:59 i haven't used SBCL on Windows because of its non-production status. Otherwise, I might add it to my "used-implementation" list :-) 00:38:22 i might be wrong about sbcl's current status on windows though 00:38:36 it's been a while since i checked 00:38:50 There is a fork that is more production. 00:38:59 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.15.197] has joined #lisp 00:40:20 i use sbcl on linux at home, and it's great. but that doesn't help me at linux phobic work 00:40:31 actually they are lisp phobic too ;-) 00:42:39 -!- solussd_ [~solussd@rrcs-76-79-44-2.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: solussd_] 00:42:49 solussd_ [~solussd@rrcs-76-79-44-2.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:44:11 msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has joined #lisp 00:46:42 -!- msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:47:21 -!- solussd_ [~solussd@rrcs-76-79-44-2.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:47:25 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.212.94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:47:39 -!- pspace [~andrew@137.148.253.41] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:47:41 pkhuong: would it really be that bad when msgpack only claim to be 11x faster than some JSON de/serialization 00:47:43 metaprogramming seems to have cought me in a "macros are evil" setting, even when i need them. it's both cool that metaprogramming, at least to the extent in which it's supported in lisp (eval would fix it, but let's not do that), isn't a replacement for macros as a sad realization that my brain needs to make place for both approaches. 00:48:08 pspace [~andrew@137.148.253.41] has joined #lisp 00:48:43 madnificent: macros are just too good 00:48:52 Guthur: depending on what library you're using, jsown might give you the edge you need in that respect (msgpack). 00:48:59 Guthur: and yes, they are :) 00:49:01 *Guthur* has developed a bit of a macro addiction 00:49:31 Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.212.94] has joined #lisp 00:49:40 madnificent: I was more interested in comparing msgpack to the read/writer that comes with the implementation 00:50:06 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.152.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:50:09 Guthur: on CL? I don't think I've seen any JSON package that claimed to have amazingly fast translation. 00:50:10 I'm somewhat interested in using s-exp as an exchange format 00:50:23 pkhuong: oh not CL, no sorry 00:50:27 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:50:40 I suppose it is apples and oranges 00:50:53 rme [~rme@50.43.152.6] has joined #lisp 00:51:24 -!- Farzad [~root@46.225.109.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:51:46 *DataLinkDroid* looks at current SBCL on Windows status 00:52:48 pkhuong: jsown aims to be fast. though even that aims to be fast when only pulling out a few keys. (its original aim was to allow efficient map-reduce steps in a common-lisp map/reduce thing for couchdb) 00:53:10 madnificent: it's a meaningless metric but, my current record for a macro expansion, in code I use is 528 lines, hehe 00:53:30 lol, i'm going to beat you, i'm certain 00:54:03 i'm thinking of translating a dtd to a bunch of functions. so if i'd insert an html or svg dtd in there, i'll likely get more lines in the expansion as i'd want. 00:54:05 as Xach mentioned, there is an (undocumented) fork of SBCL by a Russian programmer that support threading. 00:54:08 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:54:11 -!- faust45 [~faust45@109-167-63-53.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Quit: faust45] 00:54:32 it might be useful for playing around with, but i wouldn't put it to serious use 00:54:57 the official sbcl is experimental on Windows, and the issues are more than just threading 00:55:56 Guthur: though honoustly, if it were less trivial, i guess i'd prefer to lose the challenge. not sure if i think macros should generate very complex code (i don't want to imply the converse either, but i lend towards it a tad more). 00:56:01 so that leaves Clozure CL as the only viable free open source Lisp on Windows? 00:56:13 madnificent: I was just thinking today about, there is no language I know would let me build these abstraction constructs 00:56:14 that has threading i mean 00:56:26 Guthur: perhaps i should take that back and convert it to "a single macro expansion shouldn't generate complex code" but combining them.. well.. 00:56:41 Farzad [~root@46.225.109.118] has joined #lisp 00:56:42 madnificent: that so seamless integrate with the language 00:56:49 Guthur: yes there is! it's named Common Lisp! :P :D \o/ 00:57:04 DataLinkDroid: isn't one viable great CL implementation enough? 00:57:05 stickycake [~stickycak@64.134.64.179] has joined #lisp 00:57:22 *p_l* today got greenlight to use CL (ABCL, to be exact) in yet another course ^_^ 00:57:34 p_l: congrats! (which one?) 00:57:50 Artificial Intelligence for Computer Games 00:57:59 DataLinkDroid: why is the fork not viable? 00:58:02 DataLinkDroid: Well, it's good that ccl runs on Windows (and Linux and Solaris and FreeBSD and Mac OS X), right? 00:58:18 we are using a very simple game written in Java as playground, and get API that we can use to hook our own behaviours into it 00:58:33 madnificent: the generate code is not overly complex, just alot of it, if encapsulated a ZeroMQ socket in a class then generated a pile of setters and getters for the socket options, and a initialisation interface to boot 00:58:38 so I asked if I can use any language that will run on JVM :D 00:58:42 if/it 00:59:08 p_l: i can use whatever language i want in my courses, isn't that great! 00:59:20 because i am not a CS student 00:59:24 kenanb: hah, true 00:59:34 kenanb, sure, with the proviso that one size rarely fits all. However, my initial question asked if anyone uses CCL on Windows. I don't see people mentioning using CCL on Windows, that's all 01:00:16 Guthur: makes sense 01:00:20 p_l: cool! 01:00:20 DataLinkDroid: AFAIK it works like a charm on platforms it supports 01:00:31 DataLinkDroid: that's because I haven't ran windows for anything other than games in long time, but CCL works nice on Windows 01:00:42 Been using it there since 1.3 or 1.4 01:01:58 p_l: okay, at least someone does! I have used it for a while, too, but haven't stressed it yet. 01:02:34 also, I use emacs and whenever i disconnect slime, ccl crashes, unlike CLISP 01:02:44 that's a minor issue, probably 01:02:47 DataLinkDroid: weird behaviour 01:02:50 but it makes me wonder 01:03:05 DataLinkDroid: known bug, fixed in latest version 01:03:27 rme: oh, that's great! good to hear! 01:03:36 -!- qelsi [~qelsi@121.Red-83-33-85.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: qelsi] 01:03:38 Kron [~Kron@199.91.212.94] has joined #lisp 01:03:43 looks like time to update! 01:03:52 madnificent: the nicest part is the initialisation method combination :before to alloc the socket the main init for the bind/connect and most of the sockopts, and then an :after to set the opts that must happen after connect, like linger 01:04:08 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:06:27 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 01:07:10 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.212.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:07:11 p_l: for the game system you ought to use JAke 01:07:24 Jake controled by ABCL 01:07:57 Jake? 01:08:08 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-195.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:08:14 Jake.. actually Jake2 is a port of Doom2 to JVM 01:08:16 ah, we don't get to change the engine 01:08:27 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-143-195.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:08:28 its runs leaner than the C version even 01:08:37 oh what engine are you startign with? 01:09:00 -!- Kron [~Kron@199.91.212.94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:09:12 dmiles_afk: something very, very simple (2D, flat area, etc.) 01:09:31 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-249.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:09:34 it's less about engine, more about what we do with the mobs (Orcs) :) 01:10:22 that works.. i understand.. i have a project that i was using Secondlife in.. it used CYC as the lisp server.. by the time i got to a certain point i relaized the 3D world was a big limit on what AI could already do 01:10:34 _pw_` [~user@123.112.64.153] has joined #lisp 01:11:15 yeah. Since we run in-process, we can hijack the API a bit and for example get snapshots of the whole map, something I'm going to use for influence maps 01:11:20 the AI could kiss and elicit mariage.. interesting stuff.. the 3D part was more of a drag 01:11:34 heh 01:11:44 dmiles_afk: have you played Dwarf Fortress? 01:11:55 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 01:12:14 *dmiles_afk* googles it 01:12:33 i8 see .. nice 2d isomorphic 01:12:43 it has roguelike graphics, but the actual world simulation and AI underneath it is *scary* 01:12:51 lots of behaviour possibilites 01:13:15 since you don't actually order units directly but setup goals, they have rather wide range of behaviours 01:13:26 one of promised future elements is simulation of romance... 01:13:49 (there's already slightly random pairing up of characters and having children) 01:13:54 -!- _pw_ [~user@125.34.49.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:13:58 Dwarf Fortress is opensrc right? 01:14:02 no 01:14:11 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:14:20 it's moddable, but it's not opensource 01:14:29 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:14:43 its more complex then like starcraft or WoW? 01:14:56 dmiles_afk: much, much more complex 01:14:56 (the AI that is) 01:15:25 dmiles_afk: I'll put it this way. Can a character in starcraft or WoW strangle another one with intestines? 01:15:35 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:15:37 that's the level of simulation *currently* included in the game 01:15:42 MMOs have never been renown for AI as far as I can tell 01:15:43 and the AI reflects that 01:16:06 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:25 <_schulte_> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/magazine/the-brilliance-of-dwarf-fortress.html 01:16:32 interesting 01:16:34 dmiles_afk: of course the result is that there are hilarious emergent behaviours from all the complexity, like dwarf that ignored getting attacked to search for a sock 01:17:00 <_schulte_> ^ has a good anectode about adding hippoes to the game, which then started swimming up sewage pipes into fortresses to the programmers suprise 01:17:03 alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-249.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:31 -!- stickycake [~stickycak@64.134.64.179] has quit [Quit: stickycake] 01:17:40 _schulte_: my favourite quote from the author is "I think I made the fish a little too hardcore" 01:17:45 i have been tryign to create DF i guess since 2002 ;( 01:17:47 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:18:02 it was after it was noticed that *Carps* became one of the most feared animals in the game 01:18:07 well i keep gettingf distractred by engines and stuff 01:18:14 getting undead or skeleton carps was... deadly 01:18:31 DF seems to avoid those distractions 01:18:35 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.8] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:18:38 Frozenlo` [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:47 dmiles_afk: it's... interesting 01:19:16 the author definitely got ideas about AI, but isn't necessarily brilliant programmer (let's say... the drawing code was really, really bad) 01:19:35 <_schulte_> also, it sounds like it will never be ported to x86 architectures 01:19:46 _schulte_: ? 01:19:56 it's running on x86 only, you mean 01:20:03 <_schulte_> sorry, 64-bit 01:20:06 <_schulte_> ugh 01:20:17 _schulte_: actually it can be, it's just not compiled for 64bit 01:20:56 these days the drawing code is cleaned up and based on SDL, and the core is actually pure C++ 01:21:01 (iirc) 01:21:39 -!- Frozenlock [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:21:45 stickycake [~stickycak@64.134.64.179] has joined #lisp 01:21:48 <_schulte_> I was told on #df that no 64-bit release was planned, which I guess does jive with what you just said 01:22:09 <_schulte_> it does seem like an open-source version written in lisp would be *very* fun to play with 01:22:17 <_schulte_> but I wonder if seeing the code would take away some of the magic 01:22:25 p_l: so the AI is ruile based.. or like TALESPIN? 01:22:58 dmiles_afk: I don't know exactly how the AI is implemented 01:23:07 there's, however, a lot of world-generation logic 01:23:26 p_l: so the class you are going to do is a simular endgoal? 01:23:32 ignas_ [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 01:23:51 p_l: at least to see if students can create soemting interesting 01:24:16 nah, not really. It's too short, but we are introducing AI in game environment, and get to play around with different ways to do it, and afaik near the end get our AI engines to fight each others 01:24:21 jbiesnecker [~textual@112.64.21.60] has joined #lisp 01:24:45 but yeah, roguelike environment, just with Swing for graphics ;) 01:25:02 p_l: pretty neat 01:25:13 -!- Frozenlo` [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:25:49 yeah 01:30:27 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-249.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:32:15 -!- stickycake [~stickycak@64.134.64.179] has quit [Quit: stickycake] 01:33:19 -!- DataLinkDroid is now known as DataLinkAway 01:34:41 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:35:21 lispy game i am working on: http://logicmoo.dyndns.org:3602/cgi-bin/cyccgi/cg?cb-c-total&c240386 01:36:17 oh i do find the best work is spent in reprenting the world logically and creatign it logicmally 01:36:36 -!- pspace [~andrew@137.148.253.41] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:38:59 though that is pysically the possitions of everyhting .. not character behaviour 01:39:09 LiamH [~healy@173-165-155-170-charleston.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:19 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:39:57 intially the data was loaded out of a text mud 01:39:58 -!- ddp [~ddp@216-235-107-HCC-104.hcc.net] has quit [Quit: ddp] 01:40:14 ddp [~ddp@216-235-107-HCC-104.hcc.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:35 Jubb [~ghost@pool-72-66-102-48.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:53 -!- ddp [~ddp@216-235-107-HCC-104.hcc.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:42:09 ddp [~ddp@216-235-107-HCC-104.hcc.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:43 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 01:42:49 one more link.. http://logicmoo.dyndns.org:3602/cgi-bin/cyccgi/cg?cb-assertion-with-show-english&5990433 01:43:14 that is an example of a formula along with the english version of the formula 01:43:33 -!- _pw_` [~user@123.112.64.153] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:45:55 -!- rgrau`` [~user@58.Red-83-32-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:45:55 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 01:49:28 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:50:05 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-143-123.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:50:18 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-123.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:50:38 Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.212.94] has joined #lisp 01:51:25 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has left #lisp 01:52:00 dull issue, a method with header (defun foo (&rest args &key foo &allow-other-keys) ...) only accepts arguments in key-value pairs. is there a way to allow the function to have any number of arguments? (which will turn out to be collected in args anyways. 01:53:28 Do not give any &key parameter. 01:53:36 the reason for having the &ey argument there is to have slime give documentation 01:53:51 well, hints 01:58:14 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-194-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:00:20 if it's somehow possible to inform the image about the method signature which should be given, then that'd be fine also 02:00:37 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:01:08 as per clhs 3.4.1.4.1 it seems impossible to suppress this error 02:01:31 and 3.5.1.6 02:01:41 I gave you the solution. 02:01:55 pjb: it is not a solution, it doesn't give the programmer the keyword hints 02:02:08 it is a partial thing i could use to make the error go away, but it is not a solution to my problem :) 02:02:29 madnificent: if you want any number of argument, you don't want keywords. Keywords are even number of arguments, with the even numbered one being symbols. 02:03:03 pjb: so the issue which stays is: how can i inform the programmer that a certain set of arguments are expected. how can i inform swank of this, for instance. 02:03:12 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:03:19 madnificent: look at the sources of swank. 02:03:20 because the reason for adding them, was to help the programmer in picking the right arguments. 02:03:40 pjb: and that, my dear friend, is the same as not answering at all. i have no clue where to start looking. anyone else? 02:03:44 madnificent: also you keep talking about methods, but you shown a DEFUN. 02:04:04 the sources of swank!!! That's where you start looking. 02:04:20 yeah, it's in defun. but it's actually applicable to all lambda lists i think 02:04:31 You can also try: (defun foo (args &key foo &allow-other-keys) ...) and (foo (list ) :key ) 02:04:31 02:04:44 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:05:19 s/:key/:foo/ 02:05:46 pjb: that's not the way it should look, it'll be a mess to use 02:05:59 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:06:03 whatever. 02:07:01 issue stays, if someone can show me to the right information as to how i can inform my lisp image about which hints it should give, it'd be very welcome. 02:08:32 did anyone heard of dto after that patent related mails of his? 02:08:51 Yes. But not much. 02:09:00 is he ok? 02:09:32 I don't know. Contact him. 02:10:05 i didn't contact him directly except lispgames channel 02:10:13 kenanb: yes, he's ok 02:10:21 kenanb: and online again, and publishing stuff 02:10:32 madnificent: where? 02:11:05 github, facebook, presumable through other channels as well. i don't stalk him, sorry. 02:11:15 kanru` [~user@118-163-10-188.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:16 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:11:34 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:12:15 madnificent: i see, i meant to ask if he is blogging on lispgames stuff 02:12:20 will check github 02:12:37 -!- ignas_ [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:15:02 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:54 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:15:57 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:18:41 kenanb: he's on #lispgames regularly, you could ask him there. i haven't seen any blog posts of him lately 02:21:20 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:05 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:23:49 pnq [~nick@AC814ECA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 02:24:43 -!- Farzad [~root@46.225.109.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:51:44 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 15:51:44 15:51:44 -!- names: ccl-logbot blackwolf kpreid nitro_idiot jewel eno Cloud_ dnjaramba ISF Ragnaroek RomyRomy-afk rme tritchey gravicappa attila_lendvai milanj asvil paul0 rmathews pnathan Joreji___ Joreji__ Joreji_ Joreji gaidal homie` EmmanuelOga rmarianski JuniorRoy jkantz MoALTz Younder qelsi fe[nl]ix mvilleneuve pchrist lars_t_h ignas_ schoppenhauer teggi jtza8 Zephyrus mathrick_ joast ivan-kan` ecraven kilon sanjoyd espadrine mstevens ok2 vantage|work Athas ltaoist 15:51:44 -!- names: mrSpec daniel_ hlavaty splittist McMAGIC--Copy xan_ faust45 dtw spacefrogg Jeanne-Kamikaze macrobat levi X-Scale c_arenz anaumov brendyn Blkt kpal jdz BlankVerse tensorpudding jjkola_work hkBst patterngazer z0d mishoo_ kami gensym felipe schaueho rahul kiuma saint_cypher angavrilov ramkrsna mcsontos cataska sykopomp benny amagnus Guest28547 wildnux kennyd oconnore ianmcorvidae quazimodo tomaw manishYM gigamonkey eli basho__ AntiSpamMeta dcrawford karswell 15:51:44 -!- names: gemelen CrazyThinker sshirokov srcerer Jabberwockey a7p anonus guther sbryant TristamWrk flip214 kleppari limetree jsnell cpape arnsholt timb mal clog C-Keen ddp theBlackDragon seangrove djuber Posterdati [SLB] ghuntley_ lnostdal dRbiG maxm-- Buglouse jeekl amaron drwho Shaftoe Aethaeryn daveo __main__ sysop_fb ``Erik EyesIsServer ASau BixSqrl totzeit sipo finnrobi abeaumont pjb The_third_man hugod Vutral chr arbscht Obfuscate |3b| twopi cmatei _3b 15:51:44 -!- names: k9quaint Phoodus axion zenlunatic nialo- SeanTAllen slyrus vpit3833 s0ber foom gkeith_lt lemoinem YokYok dan64 donigan parabolize Quadrescence OliverUv kuzary ft samebchase neena SHODAN CrazyEddy BlastHardcheese rabite bzzbzz tempire rtoym cmbntr Praise Ralith conntrack segfault_ kruft Vivitron sellout ered p_l lusory Xach rdd nowhereman EarlGray^ daimrod lonstein tali713 diginet billstclair em Xof cpt_nemo Nisstyre jaimef syrinx_ scharan acieroid tychoish 15:51:44 -!- names: m0prl kaol ozzloy gffa Khisanth peccu1 jlaire trebor_dki _root_ egn Amadiro quasisane prip naryl peterhil froggey tic gz MikeSeth joshe ihyoyoung Adrinael inklesspen November scode rson noth1ng Tordek __krappie kanru Nshag yan_ redline6561 oGMo qsun jasom Neronus _stink_ df_ Patzy j_king deepfire sav wolgo erg __class__ vhost- koollman Intensity yroeht ArmyOfBruce araujo yeltzooo galdor MrBusiness ski_ peterbb felideon tessier bobbysmith007 cods bsamograd 15:51:44 -!- names: setmeaway2 phadthai pok luis mtd johs Axioplase_ cYmen_ billitch Mandus ve Fade howeyc Bucciarati newcup boyscared reb jakky elliottcable djinni` niko easye DGASAU rootzlevel jrockway loke djanatyn ramus austinh PissedNumlock Odin- aerique rotty rotty__ eMBee anthracite guaqua dmiles_afk dsp_ ch077179 drdo cow-orker freiksenet derrida tvaalen dcguru Jasko antoszka stepnem cmm mon_key pkhuong weinholt bfein nuba emit SpitfireWP kloeri zbigniew Kovensky 15:51:44 -!- names: Yamazaki-kun shachaf xristos r_takaishi housel Dodek madnificent Yahovah_ mk_ Tristam foocraft jiacobucci Borbus klutometis hyko DrForr jayne elliottjohnson nicdev_ dfox ineiros dlowe antifuchs Zhivago g000001 fmu herbieB_ devhost Utkarsh mgr tty234 daedric pokes micro` H4ns 15:52:03 I mean, I didn't say it was a *good* way to think about things. 15:52:28 dlowe: oh yes, that's another one. I've also used it instead of plist-alist (by #'cddr), and I use it for alists sometimes because the destructuring is nice. 15:52:57 if lambda's lambda lists could destructure lists, that would be another story. 15:54:23 (defmacro destructuring-lambda ... 15:54:44 That'd mean looking up the lambda list before starting to reduce its arguments, wouldn't it? 15:57:39 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-nwmtedvpkkenbfcc] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:58:34 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.183.208] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:59:43 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.183.208] has joined #lisp 16:00:08 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:01:20 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@nat-sh-131.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:01:33 yoklov [~yoklov@67.221.74.187] has joined #lisp 16:01:54 -!- kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:01:55 sykopomp: you could write compiler macros on mapcar and reduce 16:02:04 to optimize out the case of iota. 16:02:07 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 16:02:50 Actually, not on CL:MAPCAR or CL:REDUCE, but nonetheless. 16:02:54 -!- ltaoist [~mo@14.113.204.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:03:11 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03:22 pjb: I could, yes, but I'd rather have something that's more user-side and expresses the lazy generation. 16:03:36 and supports any length, for that matter 16:03:41 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03:43 IOTA is still bounded. 16:03:54 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:03:55 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:05:19 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:09:04 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-115-52-52.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:52 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:12:13 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:12:18 pnathan: Did you ever figure out restarts? 16:14:27 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.254.38] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:17:06 vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:10 -!- gensym [~timo@fw-office.allied-internet.ag] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:22 joebo [~joebo@joebo.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 16:19:58 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 16:24:24 -!- drwho [~drwho@56-34-237-24.gci.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:24:53 mintsoup [~mintsoup@173-164-33-21-colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:31 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:29:17 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:29:30 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 16:31:33 -!- vantage|work [~chatzilla@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 9.0.1/20111220165912]] 16:36:09 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.156.9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:36:12 Yuuhi [benni@p5483AB4C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:22 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:39:27 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:40:10 keltvek [~keltvek@89-212-113-105.static.t-2.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:37 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:42:32 Illiux [~nol@mc-wireless-pittnet-150-212-11-126.wireless.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 16:42:32 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.184.101] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:42:38 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:43:21 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:44:31 anddam [~anddam@151.70.81.16] has joined #lisp 16:44:32 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:44:34 hello 16:45:21 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:48:16 sunmix [~user@223.205.39.248] has joined #lisp 16:48:40 -!- faust45 [~faust45@94-248-48-175.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:48:44 faust45 [~faust45@94-248-48-175.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 16:49:56 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:51:56 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 16:56:23 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:56:59 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:59:16 sykopomp: series? 17:00:22 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:00:23 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:00:39 splittist: meh 17:00:52 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:01:24 sykopomp: meh because too #y? 17:02:04 series is the one where you have to manually specify the incoming types, isn't it? 17:04:06 sykopomp: I don't understand your question, sorry 17:05:56 if you want a floating iota, as it were, you do need to (scan :type 'float) [or similar] - the default is 'number 17:06:11 tca [~tca@a79-168-253-128.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 17:06:51 any clever way of working with JSON with lisp nstead of always using (cdr (assoc exp env))? 17:06:51 17:06:52 I've looked cl-json and json.el but I could not find anything useful! (look again, right?!) 17:07:26 Que? 17:08:00 What do you mean by "clever way"? 17:08:16 tca: YASON can return hash tables, and jsown has jsown:val 17:09:04 tca: yason can also parse into plists if you prefer that. 17:09:31 tca: and if you really want to be clever, you could do this trick in CL that lets you do (defun val (object val) (cdr (assoc key object))) 17:09:53 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 17:10:21 oops, (object key) 17:10:40 anyway, then you can do this crazy (val json-object 'my-key') trick. 17:10:50 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 17:11:40 *Odin-* finds JSON to be a surprisingly good example of the notion that all good ideas get reinvented in a slightly worse way by those unaware of the original invention. 17:12:39 *sykopomp* is pretty sure javascript people are well aware of lisp and sexps, considering the original (or an early) JS interpreter was written in CL. 17:12:52 "when implementing a program, it is usually better to construct a reasonable program rapidly, than to construct a perfect program slowly." Discuss. 17:13:06 Odin-: to be fair, it went through xml first, so while not a net improvement, it's perhaps going in the right direction 17:13:10 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.183.208] has quit [Quit: Offline] 17:13:21 splittist: considering the latter is impossible... 17:13:43 sykopomp: Yes, but it wasn't the JavaScript people who thought of taking its literal notation for objects and turn it into a serialisation format. 17:14:21 sykopomp: a correct answer. However, see me after class about your attitude (: 17:14:26 -!- shachaf [~shachaf@ip24.67-202-82.static.steadfastdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14:33 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 17:14:42 splittist: story of my academic life. 17:14:51 Odin-: It's nice that JSON can actually distinguish syntactically between lists and objects, imo. 17:15:17 oGMo: Sure. Better than the DOM+JavaScript+async headache that is turning into the current-day incarnation of NeWS... 17:15:21 imho it's not a great idea to think of sexps in as their textual form 17:15:33 -"in" 17:15:42 Odin-: heh 17:15:59 yoklov_ [~yoklov@67.221.74.187] has joined #lisp 17:15:59 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:16:05 oGMo: considering we're talking about a serialization format, that's a bit important. 17:16:38 rme__ [~rme@50.43.152.6] has joined #lisp 17:16:48 sykopomp: not really, because it confines thinking of serialization to something textual 17:17:13 sykopomp: I certainly won't say JSON doesn't have its upsides, but that ultimately is a question of syntactic sugar rather than an essential difference in expressivity. 17:17:14 oGMo: I'm trying to say that there's syntactic ambiguity when using sexps which can be annoying 17:17:18 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-224-117.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:21 -!- Illiux [~nol@mc-wireless-pittnet-150-212-11-126.wireless.pitt.edu] has quit [Quit: Illiux] 17:17:26 *Odin-* goes to play in his Turing tarpit again. 17:17:36 -!- yoklov_ [~yoklov@67.221.74.187] has quit [Client Quit] 17:17:38 Syntactic? 17:17:47 Semantic, rather. 17:17:59 that too 17:18:08 sellout1 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:11 bzzbzz_ [~franco@modemcable023.13-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:18:54 -!- ihyoyoung [seoz@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:19:21 sbryant- [~freenode@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 17:19:36 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:20:06 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:20:10 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-403140.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:20:26 tic_ [~tic@c83-249-198-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:20:29 jsnell_ [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:29 basho___ [~basho@static.76.144.4.46.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 17:20:34 BlankVer1e [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 17:20:39 finnrobi_ [~robb@xvm-20-190.ghst.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:56 crypto [~z0d@q.notresp.com] has joined #lisp 17:21:25 daveo_ [~daveo@97.73.171.234] has joined #lisp 17:21:30 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:39 pchrist_ [~spirit@83.212.181.90] has joined #lisp 17:22:44 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:24:02 paul0_ [~paul0@189.26.133.178.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:24:11 macrobat_ [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 17:24:35 anonchik [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 17:24:42 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@83.212.181.90] has quit [Changing host] 17:24:42 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:24:43 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:24:43 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:24:45 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:24:45 ihyoyoung [seoz@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has joined #lisp 17:24:49 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:49 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.152.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:49 -!- rme__ is now known as rme 17:24:50 -!- November [november@osiris.parodius.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:50 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.26.133.178.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:50 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@host83.190-31-137.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:50 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:50 -!- finnrobi [~robb@xvm-20-190.ghst.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:50 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-16-175.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:50 -!- daveo [~daveo@97.73.171.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:50 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.94.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:50 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable023.13-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:50 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:50 -!- naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:50 -!- inklesspen [~jon-freen@inklesspen.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:50 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:50 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@67.221.74.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:51 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:51 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:51 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:51 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:24:52 November [november@osiris.parodius.com] has joined #lisp 17:24:52 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:52 -!- basho__ [~basho@static.76.144.4.46.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:52 -!- jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:53 -!- tic [~tic@c83-249-198-162.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:53 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.42.114.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:53 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:53 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:53 -!- sbryant [~freenode@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:53 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-224-117.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:54 -!- BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:54 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:54 chairos [~jon-freen@inklesspen.com] has joined #lisp 17:24:54 -!- jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:24:54 -!- splittist [53cef461@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.206.244.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:24:55 -!- paul0_ is now known as paul0 17:24:57 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 17:24:58 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 17:25:07 -!- crypto is now known as Guest50050 17:25:27 -!- vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:25:56 shachaf [~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:26:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:26:50 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 17:26:56 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.94.7] has joined #lisp 17:27:12 -!- Guest50050 is now known as z0d 17:27:18 -!- z0d [~z0d@q.notresp.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:27:18 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 17:27:20 BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has joined #lisp 17:27:24 splittist [53cef461@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.206.244.97] has joined #lisp 17:27:42 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-183-142.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:29:01 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 17:31:18 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 17:31:33 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:31:58 gaidal [~gaidal@59.42.114.123] has joined #lisp 17:31:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.52.149] has joined #lisp 17:31:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.52.149] has quit [Changing host] 17:31:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:32:10 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-60.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 17:32:11 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-60.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Changing host] 17:32:11 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 17:32:30 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-16-175.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:34 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:32:47 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 17:33:00 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@host83.190-31-137.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:33:01 -!- daveo_ [~daveo@97.73.171.234] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:33:29 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:34:04 hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:11 urandom__ [~user@ip-176-199-8-56.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 17:34:12 -!- hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:34:12 naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has joined #lisp 17:35:44 -!- ivan-kan` [~user@237.33.201.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:38:24 JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 17:39:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:39:40 Illiux [~nol@fq-wireless-pittnet-150-212-2-75.wireless.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 17:40:41 -!- ddp [~ddp@216-235-107-HCC-104.hcc.net] has quit [Quit: ddp] 17:41:51 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 17:43:02 ... 17:43:26 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:43:55 osa1 [~sinan@88.241.140.107] has joined #lisp 17:44:27 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:48:38 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 17:49:08 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:49:33 -!- Illiux [~nol@fq-wireless-pittnet-150-212-2-75.wireless.pitt.edu] has quit [Quit: Illiux] 17:49:50 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 17:49:54 Illiux [~nol@fq-wireless-pittnet-150-212-2-75.wireless.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 17:49:56 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:18 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 17:50:29 -!- Illiux [~nol@fq-wireless-pittnet-150-212-2-75.wireless.pitt.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 17:50:43 Illiux [~nol@fq-wireless-pittnet-150-212-2-75.wireless.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 17:50:44 Kazinator [~kaz@S0106687f7426d0eb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:21 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@m212-96-64-87.cust.tele2.kz] has joined #lisp 17:51:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@m212-96-64-87.cust.tele2.kz] has quit [Changing host] 17:51:21 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:52:18 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:15 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:44 -!- Illiux [~nol@fq-wireless-pittnet-150-212-2-75.wireless.pitt.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 17:55:39 Illiux [~nol@fq-wireless-pittnet-150-212-2-75.wireless.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 17:58:04 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:58:10 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 18:00:59 yoklov [~yoklov@67.221.69.138] has joined #lisp 18:01:38 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-208.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 18:02:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-044.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:02:26 -!- Joreji___ [~thomas@u-0-044.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:02:39 -!- Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-044.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:03:04 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-044.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:03:36 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:04:14 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:04:27 Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:04:32 Joreji___ [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:04:37 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:04:55 lispmeister [~fix@AStDenis-551-1-121-121.w90-43.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:06:29 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:08:14 -!- anonchik [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 18:08:30 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 18:08:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:09:22 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:09:34 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-156-96.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 18:09:39 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:09:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:10:02 -!- lispmeister [~fix@AStDenis-551-1-121-121.w90-43.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:10:13 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:10:40 billitch: "06:49:28 sykopomp: when we had written enough loops calling a function on a list and consing results, we gave it a stupid name mapcar that we all agree on" <-- I don't agree on it! A much better name would be (map 'list 'list)... 18:11:05 dlowe: sykopomp: "06:54:50 sykopomp: (loop for line = (read-line stream nil) while line do ...) 06:55:12 I've yet to find a more succinct way within CL" <-- What would you think of (do (((line my-line) stream)) ...)? (nothing to do with cl:do.) 18:11:17 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:11:19 zer [~chatzilla@77-23-46-56-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:11:25 msponge [~msponge@mobile-198-228-194-145.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:33 -!- lusory [~bart@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:11:39 those three open parens make me sad 18:12:10 cmm: Each is justified. 18:12:33 -!- msponge [~msponge@mobile-198-228-194-145.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: msponge] 18:13:01 Anyway I'd take a bit too many parentheses over not enough parentheses any day. (though it's exactly as many parentheses as needed) 18:13:08 picture me making a typical "slippery slope" argument in response, for I cannot be bothered to actually type one up 18:13:21 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-151-190.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:30 cmm: Picture me being unimpressed. 18:13:41 (in that each one is justified, but the result still makes me sad) 18:13:52 (scan-file file #'read-line) 18:14:18 What if you need the number of the current line? 18:14:32 jdz [~jdz@host111-104-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:14:44 What if you need to stop if you encounter a line string= to a certain "stop command"? 18:14:49 yeah, but what if you don't? 18:15:22 haskell people invented monads for stuff like this, but monads also make me sad 18:15:26 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:15:32 perhaps it's me 18:15:49 cmm: If you don't, you might as well use TAGBODY or something and it wouldn't even be so bad. The mind-crushingly trivial examples are not very interesting. 18:16:01 (generator *) 18:16:16 -!- RomyRomy-afk [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy-afk] 18:16:33 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:17:02 *cmm* 's mind is crushed more by baroqueness than by triviality, but that might be due to senility 18:17:43 cmm: It's cool that you're sad about monad, but I'm not talking about monads at all... 18:17:48 anyways, those three open parens are a readability FAIL, however you slice this 18:18:10 there is a nice curve, where simple things are easier grasped by (map) type code.. A few :start :end, (curry) etc, not so bad yet.. But as complexity of stuff done inside increases, the "easiness of understanding at a glance" shifts towards doing it with (iterate) or (loop) 18:18:14 cmm: read more lisp 18:18:26 cmm: Actually what's failing is your lisp reading skills... 18:18:46 nah 18:18:52 one can restore stuff back to more functional style by decomposing into more functions, but then I spend tons of time agonizing over naming 18:19:31 We need more powerful functions, not more functions. 18:19:50 *maxm--* has a huge envy of people who are able to come up with great function name on the fly 18:19:56 the way to read lisp is to unsee parens. you cannot unsee three ones in a row 18:19:57 very under-appreciated ability 18:20:25 cmm: i don't even see three parens, i just see the block 18:20:26 cmm: That's absolutely ridiculous. I bet you wouldn't even complaining about that if it was 2. 18:20:34 maxm--: There was a good article a few months ago about how difficult it really is. 18:21:04 maxm--: I think it was Wolfram. He was talking about how important it is and how much time they spend, as a team, just trying to nail down the right names. 18:21:05 lispers can unsee two in a row, usually (thanks, LET), but that's a specific pattern recognition routine. more than that is just awful 18:21:32 Hexstream: i think perhaps you should just come up with one single omnipotent function which does whatever you tell it to 18:21:47 oGMo: I did. Well, for the concept of mapping, anyway. 18:21:48 because complexity is the solution to simplicity 18:22:00 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 18:22:14 Hexstream: How many hours per week do you spend hacking on your iteration library? 18:22:24 EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 18:22:46 austinh: Well, lately I don't hack on it, though I think a lot about it, does that count? 18:23:02 omegapunkt [~textual@60.234.20.206] has joined #lisp 18:23:08 austinh: could not find with quick google-fu, you have link? 18:23:14 I just want you to stop talking about it (at least, until you have something to show). But that's just me. 18:23:19 I'm working on projects that Loopless 2.0 will eventually depend on, so I guess it half-counts as working on it... 18:23:23 the practical implementation could modularize each subset of functionality behind a certain symbol, which you could place first in the do-everything function, and you could have specific syntax for defining each module .. perhaps call them "funcall" and "defun" 18:23:44 oGMo: We can add that powerful function to the upcoming revision of the ANSI CL standard, and call it CL:DWIM. 18:24:18 rme: heh 18:24:27 iterate comes very close to being "jack of all trades" for me 18:24:58 austinh: Am I not showing things? ;P 18:25:13 wish author would have accepted my (finding (values x y z) maximizing (3-dimensional-function x y z)) 18:25:13 Perhaps you haven't been paying attention. 18:25:27 mishoo_ [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has joined #lisp 18:25:46 maxm--: No, I don't have the link. But the point I was trying to make is that naming things well is hard for just about everyone. 18:25:48 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:26:10 austinh: yea but I seen some ppl with naturally more knack at it 18:26:42 a friend of mine started programming writing scripts for IRC client, and his code was always tight, and split into 3-4 line functions with very nice names.. 18:26:51 me writing same code always end up with 300 line mosters 18:27:25 recipe code ;/ 18:27:30 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:37 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:27:37 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:27:38 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:27:38 maxm--: Well, it takes a lot of effort to make something clean and simple, but maybe some people have a knack for it. 18:28:21 *austinh* just read about five quotes in that vein, but can't remember where 18:28:30 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:29:09 rme: cl:"press a button, wipes a bottom" (bad translation of russian phrase) 18:29:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:29:30 jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 18:29:43 I think you mean cl:|press a button, wipes a bottom|. ;P 18:30:59 Oh yeah, it was Jon Bentley's contribution to "Beautiful Code" 18:32:06 For instance, "Simplicity does not precede complexity, but follows it." -- Alan Perlis 18:32:08 pspace [~andrew@csu-137-148-97-66.csuohio.edu] has joined #lisp 18:32:51 man amazon made buying stuff too easy 18:32:58 Don't buy that book. 18:33:19 It's not very good, except for a couple chapters. 18:33:25 -!- ignas_ [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:33:30 C-t g beatiful code, click 1-click, $30 bucks gone 18:33:41 Hexstream: your non-cl:do isn't "within CL" 18:33:46 rather then bothering with undernet #bookz etc :-) 18:33:55 dlowe: Ah, right. 18:34:03 hmm I think amazon has undo 18:34:04 I'll just use SERIES if it comes to a dependency 18:34:17 -!- tca [~tca@a79-168-253-128.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:27 Sockets and multithreading and iterate aren't "within CL" either. 18:34:46 nope. But LOOP is. 18:35:21 -!- rmathews [~roshan@59.92.34.52] has quit [Quit: Bye..] 18:35:28 Yeah, and there are a lot of things LOOP is not: beautiful, extensible, lispy, sane... 18:35:53 philosophical nonsense 18:35:55 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.170.43.8] has joined #lisp 18:35:55 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.170.43.8] has quit [Changing host] 18:35:55 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 18:36:43 nah (iterate) is it for me.. "just the right amount of lispiness, without dicking around" 18:36:48 I was looking through the interlisp manual and the looping style seemed predominately tags named loop, I think cl:loop is a leg up over that at least 18:36:51 Hexstream: I'm not sure what you're arguing about. sykopomp said he never saw a need for LOOP, I showed an example 18:36:54 oGMo: "LOOP is completely non-extensible." <-- Please explain how this statement is "philosophical nonsense". 18:37:14 *maxm--* checked series, but deleted it after spending 3 hours trying to accomplish something trivial 18:37:23 Hexstream: if you're facing an issue in real actual code where LOOP or another CL construct isn't sufficient, find or build a tool that is. anything else is irrelevant 18:37:28 dlowe: Did I say never? I said I rarely find use for it, which is true based on when I've checked my code for LOOP usages. 18:37:46 sykopomp: never in the figurative sense :p 18:37:59 *cmm* has a hard time keeping his palm off his face. still arguing about LOOP? really? 18:38:11 cmm: it never gets old 18:38:18 dlowe: I also acknowledged that your example is one of those cases where I do end up using LOOP, and added some other examples of my own from memory. 18:38:26 cmm: if the creators of CL didn't want us to argue about loop, they wouldn't have put it in the standard 18:38:38 *sykopomp* is not a LOOP-hater, like Some Other People. 18:38:47 sykopomp: uh huh. I wasn't talking about you, though 18:39:01 maxm--: series takes a while to get used to; there's also the fact that it tries hard to be transparent, so more magic must be involved. 18:39:04 dlowe: istr reading about how LOOP was a common cause of flame wars during standaradisation. 18:39:25 standardisation* 18:39:26 there are extensible versions of loop, one of these days I mean to look up why extensibility didn't make the standard 18:39:31 I think there's a strong niche for a non-transparent series library 18:39:38 dlowe: "CL is politics, not art" -- Kent Pitman 18:39:56 Hexstream: nice. Says it all, really 18:39:59 dlowe: /me has kind of a high performance one 18:40:21 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:40:25 I suppose the elders put it into the standard to spite us. but hey, it happens to be useful too 18:40:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:35 *sykopomp* wonders if a complete extensible replacement for CL's sequences/collections library would ever gain traction. 18:40:48 (a quicklispable one) 18:40:49 sykopomp: what, like SB-SEQUENCE? 18:40:51 sykopomp: I've been working on one for snarc 18:40:57 but it needs updating, it was one of my first projects that used macros extensively: https://github.com/7max/cl-maxlib 18:40:58 sykopomp: I intend to find out. ;P 18:41:31 its based on per-column storage idea, basically simular to how a lot of time-series oriented databases work 18:41:50 mean answer: that doesn't answer my question. None of your My Favorite Toy Sequence Libraries have gained traction, have they? :) 18:41:59 what I should respond: Dunno. I still wonder. 18:42:08 Hexstream: No, you're just going to keep bringing it up everyday whenever somebody mentions something tangentially related. 18:42:11 *maxm--* considers iterate as having gained traction 18:42:32 austinh: That's not what has happened, historically. 18:42:36 *sykopomp* doesn't consider iterate a comprehensive collection/sequences library, just LOOP with more parens. 18:42:50 (modify (1+ sykopomp)) 18:42:51 vairav [~vairav@209.49.23.82] has joined #lisp 18:43:28 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@67.221.69.138] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 18:43:31 like that is a bad thing 18:44:51 I think SERIES, for all its faults, is about as comprehensive as you could hope for 18:45:03 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:45:03 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:06 Hexstream: FWIW, I really wish you the best with your libs. Please don't take my tone as more than just a casual expression of frustration. 18:45:22 Acknowledged. 18:46:17 I'll just have to do it myself. 18:46:18 :D 18:46:24 sykopomp: I disagree because I can get iterate to work the first time on most of my loops without too much documentation referencing. Also extensibility I can actually implement. Perhaps not comprehensive, but better than loop with more parens 18:47:03 saying that "CL is politics, not art" I think ignores the collaborative and compromise nature of much art 18:47:23 Cloning factor's sequence/collection API might be interesting. 18:48:58 I wish people wanting to play with extensible sequences would actually play with the already-existing implementation of extensible sequences 18:49:05 stand on the shoulders of midgets and so on 18:49:21 Cosman246 [~user@D-69-91-136-123.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 18:49:35 Kryztof: yea mean SBCL one? 18:50:01 bjonnh [~bjonnh@bdn33-2-89-86-25-253.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 18:50:40 so, i wrote a library which automatically creates the functions needed for writing xml files in s-epressions based on the DTD file. but my DTD parsing foo isn't all that. does anyone have knowledge of a DTD parsing library? it's not terribly complex, but i underestimated the ENTITY mess and I don't support external definitions (yet). 18:50:48 yeah. (Bah, how can googling sb-sequence give an Objective C page on the front page and not anything Lispy? Sucks) 18:51:16 Kryztof: google boycots us, must be. 18:51:36 Kryztof: well, IMHO thing is, that existing sequence stuff is enough for just about anything, except high-performance numerical stuff 18:51:45 it's because you are still arguing about LOOP 18:52:01 where you want not to differ from equivalent C stuff by levels of magnitude 18:52:04 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-102-3.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:14 wow, in fact that ILC paper has vanishingly-small google juice 18:52:16 cmm: Actually, you're the only one still arguing about it, that discussion was/is over... 18:53:09 maxm--: It's hard to tell what we need before having it. 18:53:19 and for high-performance numerical stuff series library, it generally will be hugely macro-intensive, with a lot of (declares) and fixed types, and basically trying to squeeze as much performance as possible, which goes into opposite direction from extensible, means you probably don't want to use closures at all, etc 18:53:22 Extensible sequences are really nice, but they still need to know their length. That can be a pretty significant limitation. 18:53:32 Kryztof: sb-sequence is cool, too. Maybe more advocacy would do the trick. 18:53:44 *sykopomp* wonders how Gray Streams became de-facto standard. 18:53:47 sykopomp: just earlier today someone was talking about wanting to specialize on specific types of arrays etc. i'd believe it could gain traction. and yes advocacy alone might be it. 18:54:59 maxm--: I'm hoping we can go high-performance columnar numeric stuff without tons of code generation. 18:55:03 *do even 18:55:45 I wonder if Clozure CL has looked into implementing extensible sequences, too. I'd want them available there... 18:55:49 madnificent: I think often you'll get what you want faster by becoming and expert and then doing 90% of the work for what you want, rather than trying to advocate and convince various parties... 18:56:30 fortunately, Kryztof did 90% of the work already! 18:56:33 pkhuong: question is what kind of API you want.. Only real-life API for this kind of stuff are APL and K 18:56:53 Hexstream: i kind-of like using external libraries. they tend to be tested, and i don't need to maintain them. 18:57:04 Hexstream: lists don't know their length either - length just needs to be computable 18:57:19 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 18:57:28 -!- pspace [~andrew@csu-137-148-97-66.csuohio.edu] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:57:31 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:57:38 which hurt my head for days after trying to decypher: "*&#*^&/2d" <-- isn't K great, previous function calculates weighted moving average 18:57:40 antifuchs: I don't necessarily want something with computable length. 18:57:43 (not real example) 18:57:48 antifuchs: Right... Though even having the length be computable in advance can be a significant limitation. ;P 18:57:51 sykopomp: I remember talking to some users who were interested in looking into implementing those extensible sequences for ccl, but maybe they all got scared off. 18:58:04 maxm--: there are other languages for regular array processing. 18:58:07 agree for lazy sequences (: 18:58:17 on the other example of the spectrum, is Oracel SQL time series extensions, which hurt my head the other way.. 18:58:27 Kryztof: when I google 'exstensible sequences' I get three copies of your paper, one of your talk, some BOOST stuff, some DNA stuff and, inevitably, some xml. You obviously spend too much time looking at objective c. (Yes, I know you searched for something else.) 18:58:30 antifuchs: streams are not sequences ;) 18:58:40 pkhuong: indeed 18:59:05 but that's what I understand is what is desired here (: 18:59:09 pkhuong: but it would be nice to iterate over them as if they were. 18:59:21 splittist: perhaps Kryztof doesn't use google full-time, as such google isn't biased towards his questions 18:59:34 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:59:53 pkhuong: any examples from top of your head?. 18:59:56 the only iteration that makes sense is map. 19:00:25 reduce with :end? 19:00:30 madnificent: "doesn't use google full-time" - the individual words make sense, but I can't get the phrase to mean anything (: 19:00:30 will there be any lisper at FOSDEM this weekend ? 19:00:42 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:00:44 remove/remove-if with :end? 19:00:47 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-208.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:00:52 sykopomp: you just explicitly converted the stream to a sequence. 19:00:55 thing is, if map is not compiled to unroll function passed to it, I don't thing you can realistically get C level performance on simple ops, like calculating trailing window avg 19:01:02 galdor: yea. 19:01:07 galdor: I'll be there. 19:01:10 yoklov [~yoklov@67.221.72.209] has joined #lisp 19:01:10 on sunday 19:01:16 -!- Illiux [~nol@fq-wireless-pittnet-150-212-2-75.wireless.pitt.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:01:16 splittist: he uses an alternative search engine? 19:01:27 Illiux [~nol@fq-wireless-pittnet-150-212-2-75.wireless.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 19:01:32 galdor: you're going? 19:01:36 ehu: you too? 19:01:36 splittist: I'm envisioning someone sitting in a chair getting asked questions and googling the answer as a 9-5 job. 19:01:37 I am 19:01:42 maxm--: haskell's REPA, or NESL, which is even more general than what APL and K support. It's more parallelism-oriented, but they go for the low-level serial performance as well nowadays 19:01:43 i'm not far off, i could go... 19:01:46 madnificent: yes., 19:01:54 Illiux: that's about what we're doing here. 19:01:58 we could have a small meeting between lispers :) 19:02:33 pkhuong: regardless of what you call it, I like the idea of being able to do (map 'vector '(a b c) (mk-fibonacci-stream)) 19:02:36 davlap [~davlap@c-24-147-211-14.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:37 maxm--: the trick is that thinking about operating on individual elements isn't the right way to do it. We don't have a map function and pass + to it; we *only* have map/+. 19:02:42 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.31.44] has joined #lisp 19:02:52 pkhuong: unfortunately if it has syntax simular to APL/K its kind of above my pay grade.. I don't even feel embarassed about it, but I find APL/K un-readable, Haskell only slighly less so 19:03:01 Also, I'd just like to interject a non sequitur: I'm currently learning lisp, and would like to say that my reactions are currently summed up by "whoa." 19:03:10 galdor, ehu: when are you going? could you /msg me a time and place for meeting :) 19:03:33 maxm--: it's just regular functional programming. I don't see what makes you think vector processing must look like line noise. 19:04:02 as opposed to (coerce (loop with fibber = (mk-fibonacci-stream) for fib = (next-item fibber) for blah in '(a b c) collect (cons blah fib)) 'vector) 19:04:19 (map 'vector #'cons '(a b c) (mk-fibonacci-stream))* 19:05:05 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 19:05:53 splittist: clearly the day job is influencing what google thinks of me :-) 19:06:32 I'll take it up with jsnell 19:08:02 splittist: alternatively, you do way more Lisp than I do :-) 19:09:29 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 19:09:56 either way I'm scared... 19:10:06 pkhuong: took me long time to find it, http://kx.com/q/d/primer.htm . I tried playing with kx, and it just did not agree with me 19:10:32 maybe I don't have required math background, but even trivial examples took me ages to understand 19:10:34 vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.69.130] has joined #lisp 19:11:04 If sbcl is almost entirely public domain except for a few parts, why hasn't anyone rewritten those few parts? 19:11:13 ZabaQ [~Zaba@85-132-136-40-static.vivo.cz] has joined #lisp 19:11:26 Aethaeryn: I don't know, but I can think of many possibilities, including "Why bother?" 19:11:43 because the principal reason for those parts not being under the public domain is that the public domain doesn't exist in many countries, not because they are under some GIVE ME ALL YOUR CHILDREN licence 19:12:07 so better find some non-Napoleonic Law person to rewrite all of Gerd Möllman's modifications to PCL 19:12:17 heh 19:12:44 ("why bother" is a good answer. splittist might say "what are you afraid of?") 19:12:53 No public domain? That's... barbaric! 19:13:32 -!- anddam [~anddam@151.70.81.16] has left #lisp 19:14:16 Kryztof: but yes, that does answer why there's this odd exception over a few parts. 19:15:03 Aethaeryn: actually, some countries have different copyright model which has equivalent of something along WTFPL or MIT as minimum possible protection, because there are two separate "rights" to the work 19:15:10 gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:16:22 *ehu* just started #fosdem-lisp 19:16:27 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181130220.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:17:05 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@67.221.72.209] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 19:17:57 -!- Illiux [~nol@fq-wireless-pittnet-150-212-2-75.wireless.pitt.edu] has quit [Quit: Illiux] 19:18:19 Aethaeryn: there is also the fact that some largeish bodies of code were written by corporate entities who used a very permissive licence for the release 19:18:26 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 19:19:16 again, why bother? 19:19:17 -!- sunmix [~user@223.205.39.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:20:33 Freedom 19:20:34 Kryztof: Then why bother to public domain parts of it? 19:20:51 So I guess the crowd here doesn't like copyleft? 19:21:31 -!- omegapunkt [~textual@60.234.20.206] has left #lisp 19:21:34 Aethaeryn: the pd parts predate the napoleonic-law people's involvement 19:21:53 ddp [~ddp@nmd.sbx10989.belfawa.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:53 Aethaeryn: some of us consider copyleft to be too restrictive, too 19:22:08 sykopomp: could be a statement of the FSF 19:22:11 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 19:22:12 Aethaeryn: I like real freedom. 19:22:17 the crowd here will go with whatever works in the context of multiple decades of work that has had quite a bit of contributor churn 19:22:21 I don't consider copyleft freedom 19:22:32 incf ehu 19:22:44 also, not sure if this was the case with CMU, but often universities have their own specific rules for sharing code developed there 19:22:56 but yea. whatever the copyright, I'll improve what's there rather then reinvent the wheel. 19:23:01 -!- Cosman246 [~user@D-69-91-136-123.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:23:14 ehu: one could argue that it's rather pragmatist and in a world without IP, copyleft would be unnecessary 19:23:24 Aethaeryn: Copyleft can be seen as a bit obnoxious in a small community with various people who regularly do commercial, proprietary work, and others who just find the requirements a bit obnoxious. 19:23:34 let's not have that discussion here 19:23:45 everyone knows everyone else's side. 19:24:01 eh, it's okay 19:24:09 lusory [~bart@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 19:24:17 I learned that when I make my Lisp program to put it under Apache <_< 19:24:51 The on-topic response is probably that no, not a lot of Lisp libraries use full copyleft. There is a Lisp-LGPL, though, and some folks release everything, including libraries, under the GPL (all the informatimago stuff, for example) 19:25:39 -!- vairav [~vairav@209.49.23.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:25:56 LLGPL isn't a problem for commercial/proprietary stuff is it? 19:26:01 And now that I think about it, I don't think I've seen any lisp libraries using the apache license. 19:26:08 No? 19:26:10 Wow. 19:26:11 oGMo: The intention is that no, it's not. 19:26:13 easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 19:26:18 LiamH [~healy@173-165-155-170-charleston.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:24 Aethaeryn: I've seen MIT/BSD/Public Domain, mainly. 19:26:32 followed by LLGPL 19:26:41 and GPL a relatively small minority. 19:26:51 http://johnhaller.com/jh/useful_stuff/open_source_license_popularity/ 19:27:06 Apache is fairly popular overall. 19:27:17 #lisp isn't overall 19:27:30 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:27:44 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 19:28:04 maxm--- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:40 -!- maxm-- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28:47 I think a problem with BSD is which BSD 19:28:49 -!- patterngazer [~patternga@globulon.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Quit: Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm] 19:28:57 Just sayin'. I wish licensing issues didn't devolve into flamewars or offtopicness :) 19:29:06 Aethaeryn: not really? who uses old bsd anymore 19:29:40 Wikipedia gives four: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_licenses 19:29:54 oGMo: we just told him we're not mainstream :-) 19:30:01 oGMo: now he can expect anything! 19:30:07 ehu: heh 19:30:12 Aethaeryn: so pick MIT 19:30:27 ehu: How can you not be mainstream? 377 nicks online... 19:30:38 Aethaeryn: groupies. 19:30:39 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 19:30:42 the lot of 'em 19:30:43 Aethaeryn: mainstream would be 10,000,000 nicks online. 19:30:48 And only three of us aren't bots 19:30:53 (well, I say 'us') 19:30:55 hipster bsd; redistribution is permitted in all forms, except mainstream uses 19:30:55 Perl: 595 nicks 19:31:08 madnificent: How about I just triple license MIT/FreeBSD/Apache as a sort of permissive-license variant of wtfpl? 19:31:18 python: 959 niks 19:31:42 ehu: not far off from perl which is most definitely mainstream. 19:31:52 Aethaeryn: I saw at least one person using CC0 for lisp code! 19:31:58 yea. but they have their own irc network. 19:32:06 I'm considering doing that myself. 19:32:14 so, having that many here is even surprising 19:32:37 hmm... http://langpop.com/ 19:32:39 Aethaeryn: i think both FreeBSD and Apache are more restrictive than MIT, so it'd be enough to just pick MIT. 19:33:00 The problem with the Langpop list is that it has "Lisp" and "Scheme" as separate entries, but presumably merges all lisps that are not-Scheme (e.g. elisp) into Lisp 19:33:13 Copyright in software is silly and should be abandoned. 19:33:21 They should make a software license that says: free to change and share, but you have to give the author credit, and, if you use any variation of it to make money, you have to negotiate royalties with the original author. 19:33:32 Odin-: regardless, we're stuck with it for now. 19:33:45 Odin-: As I said, in an ideal world none of this would matter, but if I, e.g. post my code on github, it either needs to be under a license or *no one* can use it. 19:33:56 em: Four Freedoms, etc. 19:34:11 sykopomp: never heard of that one. 19:34:12 ehu: Yes. But getting bogged down in copyleft vs. non-copyleft arguments is still utterly and completely horrid. 19:34:23 em: didn't MySQL do that? (GPL for non-commercial use) 19:34:23 em: It's kind of like CC-NC 19:34:32 em: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freedoms_(software)#Definition 19:34:37 A lot of CreativeCommons is noncommercial with exceptions possible 19:34:48 i.e. pay for an exception 19:34:58 yeah but i didn't think CreativeCommons could be used for software 19:35:01 ehu: no, not really. you're allowed to sell the GPL version of MySQL. however, you're not allowed to ship changes with it and not make them GPL also. 19:35:25 em: Can, sure. Usually aren't is a different story. 19:35:42 em: Strictly speaking, there's nothing to stop you from applying the GNU GPL to a novel. 19:35:43 ehu: I believe Oracle just adds proprietary features/extensions to the commercial version. 19:36:04 CC says to not use those licenses for software :) 19:36:11 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: +++ATH0] 19:36:15 ok. thanks. back to topic. 19:36:41 First, write code that is useful to someone. (Well, first pick a cool colour scheme for your editor, obviously.) 19:36:45 Aethaeryn: I believe Scheme is a lisp as much as any other. is it not so? 19:36:47 sykopomp: Yes, but that's not enforceable. ;) 19:36:53 ngz [~user@239.242.24.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:12 yoklov [~yoklov@67.221.72.209] has joined #lisp 19:37:19 splittist: Second step, think of a cool name for your application. Then think about what would an application with a name like that do. 19:37:41 em: My point is that the rankings in Langpop.com appear to be dubious with regards to Lisp because they separate "Lisp" and "Scheme" but do not separate other dialects of Lisp. 19:38:03 zophy [~zophy@host-5-150-220-24.midco.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:17 *sykopomp* would imagine elisp to be more popular than CL 19:38:36 It would be at least in the IRC test 19:38:39 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@67.221.72.209] has quit [Client Quit] 19:38:48 That's ... not a fair comparison. 19:38:49 #emacs has 585, almost as many as #perl :-P 19:39:14 *Odin-* hangs in #emacs, but doesn't really ever mess with elisp. 19:39:34 i could leave #emacs if it would help. 19:39:39 Aethaeryn: I can think of lots of reasons the rankings in Langpop.com are dubious without relying on that. 19:39:40 #emacs would probably be bigger if it weren't so useless. 19:39:51 https://github.com/languages/Emacs%20Lisp and https://github.com/languages/Common%20Lisp 19:40:10 On Github, elisp is #14 and cl is #26 19:40:19 scheme is #29 19:40:33 You could probably mix these numbers with others (sourceforge, Google Code, etc.) to get a more realistic ranking 19:40:55 Aethaeryn: what would this ranking actually rank. Be specific. 19:41:41 -!- qelsi [~qelsi@121.Red-83-33-85.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:45:04 rvrebane [~rvrebane@78-28-64-143.cdma.dyn.kou.ee] has joined #lisp 19:46:46 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:47:51 splittist: Well, in specific it would rank which languages are used on popular code repository sites. 19:48:27 -!- zophy [~zophy@host-5-150-220-24.midco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:48:54 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 19:49:12 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:50:29 Aethaeryn: that probably means the most verbose languages would win :-) 19:50:55 "Most Watched Today splittist / qt-tutorial-app". I question the value of these observations (: 19:51:07 ehu: I mean, in terms of active projects perhaps? or maybe their APIs aren't powerful enough 19:52:51 splittist: It has 2 people watching it 19:53:15 All you need to do is get 3 people to watch something else in Common Lisp 19:53:22 <_< 19:53:29 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:55:01 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@bdn33-2-89-86-25-253.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:56:01 -!- Cloud_ [~cbolano@187.193.245.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:56:51 *splittist* meets The GNU Affero General Public License for the first time with https://github.com/teodor-gelu/Ke-Works-RO-GDL 19:57:05 bjonnh [~bjonnh@ABordeaux-551-1-49-142.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:57:17 *p_l* shivers hearing "Affero" 19:58:19 *sykopomp* likes AGPL for completed web applications. 19:58:29 (as opposed to libraries) 19:58:47 -!- ddp [~ddp@nmd.sbx10989.belfawa.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: ddp] 20:00:14 *madnificent* doesn't fully grasp why people like the GPL, but don't want AGPL 20:00:36 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.234] has joined #lisp 20:04:36 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 20:04:43 I use AGPL on my web app 20:06:49 Cosman246 [~user@D-173-250-147-177.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 20:07:01 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-26.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:07:06 -!- Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:07:08 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:07:16 -!- Joreji___ [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:07:16 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:07:49 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:08:10 hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:21 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:08:27 Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:08:28 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:08:51 qelsi [~qelsi@121.Red-83-33-85.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:17 Joreji___ [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:10:39 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 20:11:06 rtoym: ping 20:11:36 Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.212.94] has joined #lisp 20:12:49 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@ABordeaux-551-1-49-142.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:13:59 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081EE05.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:08 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081EE05.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:15:17 saint_cypher [~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has joined #lisp 20:16:01 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081EE05.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:26 vairav [~vairav@209.49.23.82] has joined #lisp 20:17:44 *oconnore* doesn't fully grasp why people worry so much about licenses. The strongest copyleft is the self preserving desire to not maintain a changeset against a moving target project. 20:18:04 shachaf_ [~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:18:23 -!- shachaf_ [~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:19:01 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:19:18 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 20:25:01 -!- davlap [~davlap@c-24-147-211-14.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 20:25:07 what's the most obvious way to replace all the substrings matching "FOO" in a string with "BAZZ"? i used cl-ppcre with a regex now, but that's not exactly pretty. 20:25:20 also it's much slower than need be 20:25:57 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:27:06 I'll probably move to the AGPLv3 for my libraries soon That is, as soon as I can read it. 20:27:24 madnificent: cl-ppcre is the most obvious way. 20:27:29 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181130220.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:27:47 pjb: you know i dislike it by heart, but i think it's the logical choice for you :) 20:28:20 madnificent: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.string:string-replace 20:28:33 pjb: no thanks, that's gpl 20:28:47 Hurry, soon it'll be AGPLv3! :-) 20:28:52 Xach: can you tell cl-ppcre not to try to parse it as a regexp? 20:29:01 davlap [~davlap@c-24-147-211-14.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:13 madnificent: No. 20:29:26 hmm. thanks. 20:29:29 "BAZZ" is a regular expression. 20:29:57 Xach: yeah, it's for reason of speed. parsing the SVG spec takes somewhat too long. 20:30:13 -!- Cosman246 [~user@D-173-250-147-177.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:30:19 madnificent: don't you like gpl? 20:30:27 Posterdati: correct 20:30:42 madnificent: It would surprise me if cl-ppcre is a bottleneck. 20:30:56 madnificent: so you don't like linux :) 20:31:21 kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 20:31:30 Xach: i continiously create new regular expressions which are always tested on a very short string. 20:32:52 madnificent: fixed length? 20:33:22 *madnificent* runs a benchmark loop, will take a while 20:33:38 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:34:06 Posterdati: i don't dislike linux per se. i'm not willing to either publish code under the gpl or use it in my own projects. i dislike other things which i do use. 20:34:31 Posterdati: i have source and target strings, they're generally not the same length. 20:34:44 karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:35:51 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:36:01 kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 20:36:07 ddp [~ddp@24-113-196-147.wavecable.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:13 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:38:38 madnificient: I achieve something similar to what you seek using with-output-to-string 20:38:44 and walk throught he octets. 20:39:02 actually, I use search 20:39:46 madnificent: What are you really doing? 20:39:48 it behaves reasonably well on my domain. not sure what you do 20:41:02 rudi [~rudi@cm-84.208.89.228.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 20:41:11 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181138064.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:41:22 you can optimize the search behaviour, but I think that looping through #'search until it returns nil will be substantially faster than building a reg-exp 20:41:44 Xach: i'm parsing a DTD and i'm generating functions which allow me to create an xml file by using s-expressions. it also gives hints as to which attributes are accepted. parsing the DTD of the SVG spec takes a while. 20:41:51 -!- ddp [~ddp@24-113-196-147.wavecable.com] has quit [Quit: ddp] 20:42:07 Shaftoe: walk over the characters, you mean? octeds could be off. i could do that... 20:42:28 yeah, forget the octets part, was thinking of something else. 20:42:34 I just use #'search. 20:43:04 yeah, that'll likely make sense 20:43:09 and #'write to write large ranges. i.e. from start of string to first #'search result, then write my substitution string, then proceed. 20:43:36 the strings are always short (~40 characters) 20:44:02 ah. well that's slightly different, I have strings that are 50k long... 20:44:09 but you can find an optimal solution, I'm sure. 20:44:28 ddp [~ddp@24-113-196-147.wavecable.com] has joined #lisp 20:44:50 yeah, i'm going to see what the current benchmark yields if it ever finishes. 20:44:57 -!- easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has quit [Quit: Outta here?] 20:46:25 -!- hydo [~hydo@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: hydo] 20:46:39 pspace [~andrew@137.148.254.136] has joined #lisp 20:48:26 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:37 *splittist* gives up trying to understand what "Major Compenent" and "System Libraries" are supposed to mean. 20:53:44 hi all 20:55:27 Xach: i stopped the benchmark as it took too long, however, roughly all the time goes to cl-ppcre. it's normal i'm completely abusing it. 20:55:50 -!- maxm--- is now known as maxm- 20:55:54 madnificent: What does the code look like? 20:56:48 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@85-132-136-40-static.vivo.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:57:25 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:57:43 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 20:58:17 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 20:59:19 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.231.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:00:09 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:01:19 Xach: the cl-ppcre pieces aren't located extremely close together. however, for each of the entities in the file, i need to figure out if i can expand it. the entities are a dumb form of macro. i create a lambda function with a call to cl-ppcre:regex-replace and a regular expression which is built by (concatenate 'string all known values) (<-- come to think of it, concatenate 'string doesn't have a compilermacro function 21:01:19 don't always have to generate a new regular expression. 21:02:13 EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 21:02:39 i could use create-scanner to make sure it doesn't always create a new one, right? 21:06:23 ccorn [~ccorn@dhcp-077-249-189-185.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 21:06:25 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:06:25 doing less work could help 21:07:51 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:49 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:08 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.14.79] has joined #lisp 21:12:19 yup, that did the trick 21:13:01 Xach: despite the name, drakma.tar.gz was not gzipped before. i've corrected that, sorry. 21:13:16 ok! 21:13:19 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-50.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:13:28 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:40 -!- jdz [~jdz@host111-104-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:15:18 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 21:15:41 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 21:25:01 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:26:05 -!- rudi [~rudi@cm-84.208.89.228.getinternet.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 21:26:49 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 21:27:14 -!- pspace [~andrew@137.148.254.136] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:30:04 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 21:31:47 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.234] has joined #lisp 21:33:53 -!- rvrebane [~rvrebane@78-28-64-143.cdma.dyn.kou.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:34:50 rudi [~rudi@cm-84.208.89.228.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 21:36:01 Joreji__1 [~thomas@u-0-033.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:37:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:37:57 -!- Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:38:11 -!- Joreji___ [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:39:02 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:39:33 gab31 [5f53543c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.83.84.60] has joined #lisp 21:39:38 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:42:48 *Neronus* is istting in hip brooklyn in a hip cafe and feels like a hipster in general. Strange feeling, that. Anybody in NY by any chance? 21:42:49 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081EE05.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:55 I'd like to improve a print-object method so that newlines are inserted by the printer to make the output look better. 21:43:16 Is there a format directive for "this is a good place for a newline". 21:44:04 ~% 21:44:51 reb: you'll have to play with logical blocks and all, I think. 21:45:19 reb: yes, logical blocks and pretty printing. If *print-pretty* is nil, you probably don't want to insert any newlines. 21:45:34 Hi guys, there is a code: http://paste.lisp.org/+2QBI that evalutes different in CLISP and SBCL (check out the paste) 21:45:41 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 21:45:43 drwho [~drwho@56-34-237-24.gci.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:47 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:45:49 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:18 I get (#) in clisp too. 21:46:21 Should it? 21:46:23 pkhuong/pjb: I read the pretty printing paper a long time ago ... sounds like I need to dig it out. Thanks. 21:46:36 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181138064.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:46:38 gab31: clisp "2.49 (2010-07-07) (built 3499302370) (memory 3499302538)" 21:46:41 with -ansi 21:47:42 Yea I'm too. I would know why it returns NIL in SBCL. 21:48:43 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 21:49:22 gab31: I think that's a bug in sbcl. It must consider that (/ 1 0) is dead code, and skip it. 21:49:35 The handler is not called. 21:49:38 I could not catch DIVISION-BY-ZERO... 21:49:50 Yea, the handler is not called. 21:50:16 Congratulations, you can report a bug. 21:50:18 gab31: it's dead code. 21:51:11 gab31: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127422#1 21:51:13 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 21:51:20 pkhuong: in lisp, errors are not dead code, they must signal errors. 21:52:07 -!- vairav [~vairav@209.49.23.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:52:17 pjb: in Common Lisp, / *might* signal errors. 21:52:49 The only thing that you can count on is that the consequences are undefined for division by zero 21:53:24 That's an intepretation of the standard that's too literal on the part of sbcl. 21:53:25 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.69.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:53:34 as a potential customer, that makes me reject sbcl. 21:53:53 pjb: I'd consider reading the standard if I were you. 21:53:59 But when I replace "0" to (read) for example and type 0 to the REPL it does not invokes the handler. How it can know that it is a dead code? 21:54:05 "Might signal type-error if some argument is not a number. Might signal division-by-zero if division by zero is attempted. Might signal arithmetic-error." 21:54:22 gab31: the division itself is dead code: you don't use its result. 21:54:30 "The consequences are unspecified if any argument other than the first is zero. If there is only one argument, the consequences are unspecified if it is zero." 21:54:35 Even with (/ 1 (read)) it doesn't signal the error! 21:54:41 (print (/ 1 (read))) 21:54:47 pjb: why would it? 21:54:48 Also, when I remove the handler it signals an error and breaks to the debugger. 21:55:01 pkhuong: because as a customer, I expect it. 21:55:15 pjb: the (READ) is irrelevant. 21:55:23 pkhuong: but when I type 'FOO to the repl and it reads it it signals TYPE-ERROR 21:55:31 pkhuong: on one hand, it gives warnings when you defmethod without defgeneric, on the other hand it can't signal a division-by-zero error! 21:55:39 pkhuong: what does that tell you about the quality of the implementation? 21:55:44 gab31: yes. You still get a type check for integrality 21:55:55 pjb: you tell me. 21:56:07 gab31: * type check for number-ness, sorry. 21:56:07 pkhuong: IMO, bad. 21:56:13 *sykopomp* eagerly awaits the day when SBCL starts WARNing when someone uses :accessor without defining a generic function first. 21:56:21 :-) 21:56:40 sykopomp: I believe that one is covered in the spec. Also, we follow the specification wrt warning VS style warning, unlike other implementations. 21:56:58 oh yes, STYLE WARNING please 21:57:04 pkhuong: does the spec allow STYLE WARNINGs? 21:57:16 -!- osa1 [~sinan@88.241.140.107] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:57:25 osa1 [~sinan@88.241.140.107] has joined #lisp 21:57:26 sykopomp: it's a standard condition type. 21:57:34 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw60/CLHS/Body/e_style_.htm <-- This? 21:57:44 pkhuong: I mean for :accessor. 21:58:10 sykopomp: don't know. I vaguely remember that the defgeneric is implicit for accessors. 21:58:15 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@dhcp-077-249-189-185.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 21:58:57 gab31: the division in your paste is dead code because its result is not used. When you return the value of the division, rather than the list of conditions, then the result of the division is used, and it is computed. 21:59:17 DataLinkDroid [~David@110.141.3.214] has joined #lisp 21:59:31 pkhuong: it is. It's technically correct. :\ 21:59:49 pkhuong: again, an expression that may signal an error cannot be dead code if it is reached. 22:00:02 pjb: it *might* signal an error. 22:00:04 pkhuong: yea, I've got it. How can I prevent code deletion? 22:00:08 pjb: s/may/must/ 22:00:09 gab31: use the result. 22:00:29 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181138064.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:00:37 pjb: the only thing you can gaurantee wrt a division by zero is that nothing is guaranteed. You must be using a different dialect. 22:00:55 pjb: you're arguing against compiler optimization of arithmetic expressions now 22:01:16 jbiesnecker [~textual@116.237.69.188] has joined #lisp 22:02:29 -!- osa1 [~sinan@88.241.140.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:02:43 pjb: the spec is quite clear: division by zero is undefined and *might* trigger a division-by-zero signal. 22:02:56 There's no specific statement of implicit defgeneric for :accessor, and the spec for style-warning is open-ended enough that the standard wouldn't prevent you from issuing one in the case of a not-previously-named accessor... 22:03:22 pkhuong: yes. I don't dispute the spec. I dispute the choice of the implementation to not signal an error on division by zero. 22:03:46 pkhuong: the standard allows implementations of low quality. 22:03:48 for anyone else, pjb is spouting misleading information. You'll get divisoin by zero signals when such a division is actually executed; that's orthogonal to dead code elimination. 22:04:23 if sbcl was of higher quality, it would signal a division-by-zero error, and therefore it would not be dead code. 22:04:27 pjb: So, you're asking every implementation to execute all code involving arithmetic division in all cases? 22:04:36 That is true. (print (/ 1 0)) signals it. 22:04:39 pjb: you're getting pretty trollish now. 22:05:18 (* 0 (/ 1 a)) 22:05:40 gab31: so if you don't expect a NIL result, your code woudn't be conforming, but you're right to be unhappy. 22:06:46 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:47 gab31: (shadow '/) (defun / (&rest args) (if (find-if 'zerop (rest args)) (error 'division-by-zero) (apply 'cl:/ args))) 22:07:43 ccorn [~ccorn@dhcp-077-249-189-185.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 22:07:47 pjb: if the spec leaves the choice to the implementation about an issue that you have a concrete choice of proper behavior, then you are practically disputing the spec 22:08:06 kenanb: not at all. I'm disputing the implementer's choice. 22:08:18 pjb: not even, you're disputing a strawman. 22:08:24 kenanb: other implementations do it like I want. I choose other implementations but sbcl. 22:08:26 SBCL does signal on divisions by zero. 22:08:53 -!- ddp [~ddp@24-113-196-147.wavecable.com] has quit [Quit: ddp] 22:09:09 pkhuong: at least it signalled when i tried 22:09:19 perhaps pjb should redefine prog2 to return the result of the first expression. 22:09:40 i don't know what it should have signalled when tried with the handler-bind code 22:09:42 sykopomp: that has nothing to see. 22:09:54 pjb: I still think you should. 22:10:18 Did anybody ever run into " Unknown character encoding: :GBK" while trying to load hunchentoot? 22:11:10 Neronus: does it say which file has the unknown char encoding 22:11:28 Neronus: no one that i know of, my guess would be that your system somehow created a file with odd specs 22:12:08 Neronus: i encounter such errors time to time, in my case mostly a unicode character in the name of package author causes it 22:13:03 ddp [~ddp@24-113-196-147.wavecable.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:09 nah, it was decoding error i guess, don't listen to me 22:13:49 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.31.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:14:08 kenanb: cffi's strings. I'll try to remove the fasl from the cache and see what happens 22:14:24 kenanb: Neronus's issue seems different than having a single character that's off 22:15:43 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:08 TrystamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-60.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 22:16:26 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 22:17:28 -!- LiamH [~healy@173-165-155-170-charleston.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:17:38 -!- ddp [~ddp@24-113-196-147.wavecable.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:17:57 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:19:23 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:19:32 LiamH [~healy@173-165-155-170-charleston.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:23 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-403140.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:14 That solved the problem. 22:22:16 strange 22:22:30 Another question: when I type something like FOOBAR (i.e. unbound variable) to SBCL's REPL - I get a warning messages in the standard output. How can I mute it? I tried to redirect the *standard-output* but it has no effect. 22:23:05 Sorry for my English skills. 22:24:09 A nice picture of JMC I didn't know: http://www.crackajack.de/2011/10/25/r-i-p-john-mccarthy/ 22:24:45 rgrau`` [~user@188.Red-79-152-226.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:13 lnostdal [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:45 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:28:39 gab31: why do you want to do that? 22:29:54 karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:30:34 I have some testing code that runs the "incorrect" code and prints some messages. 22:31:28 Theese messages mixed up with SBCL's warnings. 22:31:47 gab31: i think you should search for sb-ext:muffle-conditions 22:31:49 -!- karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:31:51 It is not much readable 22:33:39 pjb: no wrist support with that keyboard. No wonder no important software was written in the 60's and 70's. Oh. 22:34:03 sb-ext:muffle-conditions is not bound (nor fbound) 22:34:12 :-) 22:34:13 SBCL 1.0.40.0.debian 22:34:58 it's a declaration, see the sbcl manual 22:35:12 what's nice on that picture is that we see him working on some AI software with robots manipulating cubes. 22:35:38 -!- jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:04 pnq [~nick@ACA441E3.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:14 gab31: in my experience, SBCL's extra warnings are quite handy, and you do get used to the extra stuff on the screen. 22:36:36 -!- LiamH [~healy@173-165-155-170-charleston.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:36:37 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:36:50 -!- sellout1 is now known as sellout 22:37:37 pjb: sure it's not 'cd ~/pron; ls *bbw*.avi'? 22:38:42 *Odin-* wonders when the AVI container was introduced. 22:39:08 there is a lisp-style porn 22:39:47 -!- ngz [~user@239.242.24.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:39:47 Now I will mapcar my atom thorugh your elements... 22:39:52 And then push 22:39:55 And then pop 22:40:06 and then climacs, of course 22:40:38 I'm sure there's a cdddddadadddaadaddadr joke in there somewhere. 22:40:41 use your imagination. 22:41:42 gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-72-36.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:42 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-72-36.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:42:33 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44:30 -!- setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@118.45.149.58] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:45:30 -!- joebo [~joebo@joebo.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 22:45:34 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 22:48:10 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.26.133.178.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 22:49:03 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128161020.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:50:01 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@host83.190-31-137.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:50:04 faust45_ [~faust45@94-248-48-175.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 22:50:10 -!- faust45 [~faust45@94-248-48-175.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:50:11 -!- faust45_ is now known as faust45 22:53:18 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:53:20 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:55:51 rgrau``` [~user@110.Red-81-33-50.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:12 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 22:56:24 hehe, that McCarthy picture is classic 22:56:42 it almost seems tongue in cheek 22:56:53 not sure if that is intentional 22:57:00 -!- rgrau``` is now known as rgrau_ 22:57:12 is/was 22:57:29 -!- rgrau`` [~user@188.Red-79-152-226.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:58:40 -!- rudi [~rudi@cm-84.208.89.228.getinternet.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 23:00:02 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:00:12 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:00:18 bjonnh [~bjonnh@bdn33-2-89-86-25-253.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 23:00:42 vairav [~vairav@209.49.23.82] has joined #lisp 23:00:51 -!- gab31 [5f53543c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.83.84.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:00:59 -!- karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:01:25 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:01:42 -!- qelsi [~qelsi@121.Red-83-33-85.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: qelsi] 23:02:38 gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has joined #lisp 23:04:22 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:07:08 marioxcc [~user@200.92.70.222] has joined #lisp 23:07:14 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA441E3.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:12:25 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 23:15:24 -!- faust45 [~faust45@94-248-48-175.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Quit: faust45] 23:16:12 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Client Quit] 23:17:02 _schulte_ [~eschulte@209.234.140.58] has joined #lisp 23:18:40 ddp [~ddp@63.226.227.124] has joined #lisp 23:19:45 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@dhcp-077-249-189-185.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 23:20:55 -!- ddp [~ddp@63.226.227.124] has quit [Client Quit] 23:21:15 ddp [~ddp@63.226.227.124] has joined #lisp 23:22:53 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 23:23:09 msponge [~msponge@30-7-244.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 23:26:10 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@bdn33-2-89-86-25-253.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:29:21 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@209.234.140.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:30:52 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:33:36 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.14.79] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 23:34:14 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.70.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:37:52 decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has joined #lisp 23:39:32 krfkeith [~krfkeith@ppp-69-153-136-120.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:41 -!- krfkeith [~krfkeith@ppp-69-153-136-120.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:42:51 -!- jbiesnecker [~textual@116.237.69.188] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:45:19 -!- mintsoup [~mintsoup@173-164-33-21-colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:47:10 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:49:28 hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:32 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:58:16 rgrau_` [~user@58.Red-83-32-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:43 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]