00:03:37 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@69.166.22.224] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:03:57 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.224] has joined #lisp 00:05:26 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128238203.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:05:27 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:08:39 ASau` [~user@95-26-139-80.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 00:12:11 if i have the lambda-list which constitutes the arguments a generic function expects, then is there an easy way to fetch all the arguments given to a specific method (as if the method's lambda list would've been (&rest all-arguments))? 00:12:41 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-139-26.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:15:21 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 00:18:15 ejbs [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 00:18:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:52 So, is Weblocks pretty much the recommended Webframework for Common Lisp? Except the user-guide, does anyone know any resources from where I can learn more about it? It seems like a very "Yes, this is how it should be!"-kind of framework and it's just annoying that I can't find more places to learn about it from 00:21:47 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 00:22:29 ejbs: no 00:22:47 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 00:23:31 madnificent: opkay, my right hand's acting up and... stuff. no to simply everything I just said? 00:23:45 ejbs: there is no recommended webframework for lisp, there are so many different web frameworks with so many different users that recommending just one of them seems very very wrong :) 00:23:50 ejbs: i was still typing :) 00:24:51 ejbs: i doubt weblocks is used on a high percentage of lisp websites, but that doesn't mean it's bad per se 00:24:59 madnificent: Well, yes, I guess that's true :). 00:25:47 i haven't used weblocks myself, so i'm not going to comment on how good or bad it supposedly is :) i do strongly suggest you check out the competition though 00:25:58 I really don't wanna use.. 00:26:26 Hunchentoot by itself. the only other one -I know is RESTAS 00:26:28 -!- Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:26:30 the documentation of most of the web frameworks seems to be pretty lacking 00:26:42 from my limited adventures in CL webdev 00:27:20 hunchentoot is reasonably, relatively speaking, documented 00:27:31 but i do not class that as a web framework 00:27:32 -!- Joreji___ [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:27:33 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:27:52 just a webserver, good one at that, though 00:27:55 Yeah, 'cuz it's Ediware. Buuut... Sorry guys, I've gotta go, got a mate waiting outside my door. 00:28:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:28:11 ejbs: i don't quite understand what's wrong with using hunchentoot + some libraries that suit your fancy. however, there's indeed restas. others are whistle (though more of a full-fledged webserver) and there's ... 00:28:23 Uncommon Web. 00:28:25 ejbs: /msg me if you're back or something of the likes :) 00:28:37 -!- ngz [~user@23.78.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:29:07 madnificent: Yes, I will! If I can tha tis 00:29:35 ejbs: you can also take a look at Clack and Caveman 00:30:41 just building framework to fit ones own particular needs seems to be the way with CL web frameworks 00:32:57 Guthur: that may make us less competitive though 00:33:09 wrt to non-lisp frameworks 00:33:37 yeah I was thinking it might be nice to have one prominent example 00:33:43 -!- evilniko is now known as niko 00:33:53 if for nothing more than to encourage good examples and documentation 00:34:32 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.81.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:34:46 for sharing libraries and showcasing how good they are 00:35:17 lemoinem [~swoog@8-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:29 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:35:32 Frozenlo` [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:20 sigh, i'm missing out on how to do this basic trivial symbolic manipulation. i have a lambda list (available in lisp as a list) to which i need to adhere, but i want to collect all arguments that were given to the method as a list. 00:38:44 Whitesquall [~notwhites@212.106.42.245] has joined #lisp 00:38:52 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:28 -!- Frozenlock [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:39:36 as the lambda list of the generic function is fixed, i can't use that to alter the heading... 00:40:53 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 00:41:11 madnificent: without explicitly knowing the arguments? 00:41:37 not sure there is a way, other then making method &rest args 00:41:41 Guthur: i'm not sure what you want to say. i don't know beforehand what the list is 00:41:43 I mean clos way 00:41:47 kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 00:42:11 maxm--: i'm doing clos hackery indeed 00:42:21 madnificent: that more or less answered my question 00:43:21 Guthur: i'd give 'more' if i knew what the question was. terminology is --at least for me-- a tad vague at the moment. 00:43:29 sledgehammer way would be (defgeneric gf ...) (defvar *old-gf* (fdefinition 'gf)) (setf (fdefinition 'gf) (lambda (&rest args) (log-sexp args) (apply *old-gf* args))) 00:43:38 or get one of the available "defadvice" libraries 00:44:28 maxm--: that wouldn't work nicely with new methods being defined on the gf *after* i do my trickery. 00:44:30 madnificent: you its ok to be non-portable, look at how PCL defines (call-next-method) 00:44:36 it sure has to retreive all args from somewhere 00:45:02 madnificent: I think it will work, defmethod does not override the generic function I think 00:45:06 it adds method to existing one 00:45:20 but new (defgeneric) will probably wipe the hook out 00:45:22 maxm--: the lambda list will not fit anymore 00:45:33 pnathan1 [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 00:46:03 madnificent: closer-mop:generic-function-lambda-list 00:46:06 maybe 00:46:26 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:46:35 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:46:36 kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 00:47:46 Guthur: no, that gives you the lambda list, not the arguments that have been given to the method as a list 00:47:51 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-114-139-31.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:48:00 maxm--: (c-n-m) isn't a bad idea, though i'd prefer for it to stay within closer-mop 00:48:13 madnificent SBCL doesn't seem to mind. (defgeneric foo (&key bar)) (defmethod foo (&rest args) args) 00:48:39 kennyd: and what would the precedence be in that case? 00:48:42 kennyd: you can't specialize on anything that way 00:49:08 if someone discovers portable way to do it, its worth being on lisptips 00:49:22 I'm assuming you'd have an object prior to keyword list. would that make a difference? 00:50:46 (defmethod foo ((foo foo) &key bazonga)...) (defmethod foo (&rest args)...) (defmethod foo (foo &key bazonga) ...) is something that springs to mind 00:51:06 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:51:16 technically you can get GF lambda list from MOP, then generate an (around) defmethod that would provide a dynamic binding for all method args 00:51:18 kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 00:51:28 but you'll have to do it on per-generic-function basis 00:52:02 maxm--: and i'm wondering how i go from the GF lambda list to a list of arguments, that's it. i think i have it covered from there on onward 00:52:05 madnificent: I'm sure 2nd one of these will tell you "method has different number of required arguments" error 00:52:24 frx [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has joined #lisp 00:52:31 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:52:51 hello. is there a way to run my own quicklisp server for personal use? 00:53:36 frx: i think something of the likes was intended to be supported. i'm fairly sure it works. i don't know how. 00:53:48 hmm, (defgeneric foo (one two three)), (closer-mop:generic-function-lambda-list #'moo) returns (one two three) 00:54:33 maxm--: but that's not the problem. say (defgeneric foo (one two &key foo bar (baz 10) &allow-other-keys) ...) now what are the actual arguments given? 00:54:40 from there you can generate (defvar *gf-args*) (defmethod moo :around (one two three) (let ((*gf-args* (list one two three))) (call-next-method))) 00:54:47 then in each of your methods access *gf-args* 00:54:49 mkay, that was rubbish to some extent, but the idea still holds 00:55:38 maxm--: i got that far, i'm continuously wondering about getting the actual arguments given :) (and in my case (list one two foo bar baz) doesn't hit it 00:55:45 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:56:22 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:56:33 you have to reconstruct arguments based on lambda list, there is a syntax to let you know if argument got default value 00:56:35 kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 00:56:58 &key (value nil specified-p), specified-p will be t if value was proivded in original call, or nil if it was default 00:57:03 maxm--: i know, but it's vastly more complex when &allow-other-keys is involved 00:57:17 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.106] has joined #lisp 00:57:42 I think if there is a &key and &rest, then &rest will have all the keys in it 00:58:11 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 00:58:20 but there may not be an &rest 00:58:47 if you have control over the lambda list then it's obviously easier 00:58:48 frx: yes 00:59:02 madnificent: what are you really doing? 00:59:03 madnificent: what about your own defmethod macro that also defs an :around method that just collects any args 00:59:17 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 00:59:34 Xach: i'm trying to create a default catch-all method with semantics based on the metaclass of a generic function. 00:59:54 madnificent: no, what are you really doing? 01:00:26 trying to take over the world? maybe 01:00:49 ok, my full situation is this (it's ugly, i've thought about nice alternatives for the total thing, but they seem unfeasible) 01:01:22 frx: unfortunately there is no documentation, but if you look at the *.txt files in ~/quicklisp/dist/quicklisp/ you can get an idea of what metadata is needed. 01:01:43 Xach thanks! 01:03:55 hba [~hba@189.130.157.210] has joined #lisp 01:06:11 miql_ [~miql@ip98-165-228-225.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:06 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:58 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:09:59 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@c-76-127-240-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 01:10:51 i have a tree-like datastructure. the datastructure is transformed in various steps. there are various forms of translations and transformations possible, i must be able to go from a finished translation to a previous translation. however, i must not only be able to do that for the root of the tree, i must be able to do that for various nodes in the tree also. many of the computations or operations to be performed on the 01:10:51 the tree, are the same for each stage. the nodes of each of the trees also contain roughly the same classes of instances. therefore i'd like to specify the current 'form' in which i'm operating (similar to a layer in ContextL, but invalidation schemes which also need to be hooked into this make ContextL less suited, i believe). by creating a class, much like a class of the node, which contains for each of the transformati 01:10:51 possible a slot which links to the relevant node, i have a parallel structure available. name that class pclass for generic functions which are defined with this metaclass i want a catch-all method which translates all instances of pclass to the instances of node, which indicate the current environment. however, given some of my invalidation concerns, it should be possible to create methods which specialize on pclass also 01:10:52 should receive precedence. so the logical thing to do (aside from pondering over this for weeks as this is complex, but it seems to be a complex issue) seems to be to create a method which specializes on nothing. maps over the list of the arguments it received and translates all instances of pclass to the corresponding node of the current mode. 01:11:36 madnificent: probably should have stuck that on lisppaste 01:12:03 Guthur: after seeing it appear on #lisp, i could agree o_O 01:12:48 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.48.251] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 01:12:58 So paste it there. 01:13:11 it seems to be too late for that... 01:13:33 No, it isn't. 01:13:34 i can still do it, but i don't see the gain 01:13:42 regardless, that's my story 01:13:59 It is unreadable on IRC. 01:14:04 madnificent, nobody will bother to read that in here 01:15:55 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 01:16:37 madnificent: you should go at it with "code it as someone who just learned basic" approach 01:17:04 premature gereralisation is as bad as premature optimization imho 01:17:38 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:17:56 -!- ignas_ [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:20:52 *pnathan1* reads madnificent's wall o text 01:21:50 I think you're overthinking things. But don't cram each of your passes into the same tree, that will get ugly, IME. 01:22:33 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-148-138-15.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:22:58 pasted: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127362 01:23:11 took a while as i rephrased a few things 01:23:42 SlayersZ [~slayersz@70.65.233.0] has joined #lisp 01:23:46 evening 01:23:49 -!- frx [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:23:54 -!- karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:25:02 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.192.111] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 01:25:03 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-44-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:25:55 karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 01:26:38 easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 01:26:40 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-192-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:30 ejbs` [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 01:27:36 rme [~rme@50.43.152.6] has joined #lisp 01:27:40 pnathan1: believe me, i've pondered on it long and hard (feel free to figure out a nice solution though!). there seem to be few alternatives if you need to be able to move from/to various translations. i also need some of the translations for the computation of another translation of the same node. you can try to express this in a functional way, given that your translations have inverses (which they don't always have). 01:27:40 that, maintaining it without supporting code seems to be error-prone. 01:28:00 Excalibur39 [~Excalibur@h194.28.30.71.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:04 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:28:19 I ponder how addicted people are to video games 01:28:37 (defun middle-name (name) (cadr '(x y z))) 01:29:08 -!- ejbs [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:29:37 SlayersZ: It's not as much that they are addicted to the video games but the implications of the video games. A new social life where people can be pretty much whoever they want, they start a-fresh 01:29:45 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:30:04 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:30:29 I am trying to Accepts a full name as an argument and returns the middle name. This name can be represented as a list. For example, if you run the program by entering "(middle-name (Mary Jane Doe))" the output should be "Jane". 01:31:05 but I get Y for the code I typed in 01:31:40 Excalibur39: make that (defun middle-name (name) (second name)) 01:32:26 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:32:34 Excalibur39: your lisp environment probably also told you that you didn't use the argument name when defining the function middle-name. 01:32:41 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 01:32:43 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:32:47 so what will happen if type in a 3 variable name? 01:33:05 it still would show second name? 01:33:13 Excalibur39: Wat. What do you mean? 01:33:21 Excalibur39: you mean when you enter (middle-name first middle last) ? 01:34:29 Excalibur39: you should enter (middle-name '(first middle last)) instead :) you somewhere somehow need to define your datastructure (you could also use &rest and check how long the list is or something similar btw) 01:35:04 let suppose I type (middle-name '(wanita concheta protection gonzolez)) 01:35:20 Excalibur39: why don't you try it? 01:35:30 it will put concheta as a response? 01:35:36 yes 01:35:47 *madnificent* feels like a replbot 01:35:51 madnificent: to me it seems that what you're looking for is a conceptual set of trees, each linked to other trees at each node (so it turns into a graph). But I'm spouting without knowing the source problem. ;) 01:36:03 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 01:36:12 Excalibur39: you were asking the exact same thing 2 days ago, i strongly suggest searching for Practical Common Lisp book and start reading&doing examples 01:36:30 kenanb: PCL could be too complex 01:36:38 Land of Lisp then? 01:36:49 pnathan1: you are correct. the source problem is query optimization, actually (though really, it's a messy subject) 01:36:50 Excalibur39: learning by experimenting is a good approach but not until you learn the basics 01:37:14 Or this: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook 01:37:47 i think i'd advise gentle, yes ejbs` 01:38:20 I did get a book and I understand that a list consist of two blocks like one going to nil the other open yes it is like a tree 01:38:31 I have been expiramenting 01:38:31 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:32 it seems to be on the same wavelength as what Excalibur39 is thinking with. 01:39:09 Excalibur39: i honoustly think you'll like the last link ejbs` pasted. it's long, but it talks about the concepts you're currently playing with (stay with it for a moment, it'll first explain lists to you again and you already know them). 01:39:22 -!- SlayersZ [~slayersz@70.65.233.0] has left #lisp 01:39:33 Excalibur39: as an added bonus, you can translate the examples from scheme to common lisp :) (it was in scheme, right?) 01:39:55 madnificent: Pretty sure it's in Common Lisp actually 01:40:03 Excalibur39: even better! 01:40:19 but I am so use to C++ 01:40:21 ejbs`: sorry, i keep forgetting which introductory book was actually about scheme :( 01:40:45 madnificent: Dude, Little Schemer and SICP, not that hard :). 01:40:54 ejbs`: the first page of the download kind-of screams you're right! :P thanks for the correction 01:41:13 right now I am using ---->COMMON LISP: 01:41:13 A Gentle Introduction 01:41:13 to Symbolic Computation 01:41:27 ejbs`: SICP, that's the one (and no it's not hard, i'm forgetful) 01:41:46 Excalibur39: that's the one! 01:42:21 Excalibur39: and what exactly was unclear to you? 01:42:53 Excalibur39: you're in chapter 2 right? 01:43:32 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-102-3.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:32 it can be confusing to me like I tried (defun middle-name (name) (cadr '(x y z))) then typed (middle-name '(Wanita dalita concheta)) 01:43:40 came up with y 01:44:05 Excalibur39: That's because you asked of the first of the rest of the list which contains the element X Y and Z 01:44:13 not sure if that is the y for yes or y as in (x y z) 01:44:50 Excalibur39: (cadr '(x y z)) doesn't use the argument name anywhere, does it? 01:44:51 Consider what Car and Cadr actually are. 01:45:02 Think back to linked lists in C++ 01:45:05 Excalibur39: What you want to do is (cadr name). 01:47:38 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:51:17 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 01:51:23 Hm, and then everything just... Became quiet. 01:51:47 -!- easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has quit [Quit: Outta here?] 01:52:28 Excalibur39 btw (cadr list) is the same as (second list) or (nth 1 list) 01:52:33 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:54:41 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:11 ejbs`: i think i broke the talk with insanity :( 01:56:40 madnificent: Either that or it's just the alcohol... Hm, I need a new cellphone 01:57:28 ejbs`: hp veer ftw: dirt cheap and loads of fun 01:58:37 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:58:49 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:59:10 madnificent: Argh, not one of those with a physical keyboard, they hurt my hands with their tiny buttons! I'll probably just buy a Samsung Galaxy S-II and "be done with it"... Not that cheap though. 01:59:49 *madnificent* doesn't want a tablet in his pocket, but this being #lisp i guess i'll whish you best of luck with it :) 02:01:25 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:01:40 madnificent: Well, yes, I understand but I have room enough in my pockets I believe :). 02:01:58 cool just got done expiramenting didn't try the (cadr list) but the other I did I getting it I think 02:02:46 Excalibur39: OK, so what does your function look like now? 02:02:51 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-233-208.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 02:03:45 I thought they had to have the (cadr '(name)) because I tried that one 02:04:49 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:04:50 because if you (cadr '(wanita dalita concheta)) it will give you dalita 02:04:51 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:05:06 That applies cadr to a list with one element, the symbol named "NAME". You want (cadr name) 02:05:23 Excalibur39: when you type '(name) what do you expect to be in that list if you'd be building it with the construct (list ...) (what would be in the ...) 02:05:49 -!- faust45 [~faust45@92-49-245-234.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Quit: faust45] 02:05:58 Excalibur39: When you write '(name) you really say (list (quote name)), the QUOTE function takes a symbol and returns it and NOT it's value(!!) 02:07:04 I see that 02:09:00 when you did it with out the ' and (cadr (name)) and just (cadr name) 02:09:52 *madnificent* doesn't know what Excalibur39 knows right now 02:10:45 lol I am still learning madnificent thanks for the clearity though 02:12:01 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:12:48 * thanks all 02:12:52 veelium [~user@80-121-25-173.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 02:13:30 Oh well, I'm going to bed. Good night, y'all. 02:13:31 Excalibur39: if you (defun middle-name (name) (second name)) that means "define a function "middle-name" which takes a parameter "name", take that "name" parameter, (which has a list as an argument) use it as the argument of the function "second", which simply returns the second element of the list 02:13:38 ejbs`: night 02:14:11 -!- ejbs` [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:31 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:16:43 Excalibur39: if you (defun middle-name (name) (second '(x y z))) that means define a function middle-name that takes a parameter called "name", do absolutely nothing with it, instead give me the second element of the list (x y z), which will obviously return y 02:17:05 -!- cmbntr_ [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 02:18:35 cmbntr [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has joined #lisp 02:18:48 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 02:20:14 RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:20:19 I have found that the Goldberg Variations really enhance hacking 02:20:39 Especially when played in a non-standard order 02:21:07 Excalibur39: and the ' before the () means DO NOT evaluate anything inside that (), so even if you say '(name) instead of '(x y z) it won't use the argument to "name" parameter user inputs while calling the function middle-name, since nothing inside that list will be evaluated 02:21:41 -!- ghoti- [4c1b035d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.27.3.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:22:14 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:22:45 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Client Quit] 02:23:52 Cosman246: i had forgotten about them! :D 02:24:29 Late Romanticist music also helps, especially Mahler and the Mighty Five Russian Nationalists 02:25:23 but in a different way 02:25:43 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-129-155.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:52 Excalibur39: and writing (second (name)) is also wrong, the name parameter already is a list, and even if it wasn't that is not the write way to create a list, and since the first argument to an s-expression should be a function but "name" is not a function, it will error. 02:26:17 is subtypep supposed to work on classes which are not finalized yet? 02:26:20 s/write/right 02:26:33 -!- veelium [~user@80-121-25-173.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:27:08 or should i ensure finalization when using it? sbcl does handle it correctly without finalization, i'm interested from a specification perspective. 02:27:55 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:28:09 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 02:28:58 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:30:25 -!- h0x00 [~Ivoc@91.207.42.52] has quit [Quit:   !] 02:30:32 madnificent: I don't see anything specific about it in the online AMOP chapters, except that finalization is when the precedence list is calculated. 02:31:07 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 02:31:29 Excalibur39: as you can see, jumping to function definitions without learning the absolute basics properly causes you to make mistakes in every single step of the definition, don't be hasty master Merriadoc. 02:31:39 -!- BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:33:20 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Client Quit] 02:33:30 BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:03 Bike: i couldn't find it either 02:36:31 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:37:20 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:38:01 -!- BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping 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[~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 02:56:21 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:56:23 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 02:58:08 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-18bc96a3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 02:59:17 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082B0FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:00:23 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable023.13-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:00:34 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable023.13-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:02:46 -!- rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:03:06 nialo [~nialo@ool-18bc96a3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:27 rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has joined #lisp 03:04:11 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A5A42.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:04:19 daniel [~daniel@p5082B0FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:31 -!- donigan [~donigan@69-92-2-116.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:08:38 -!- ghuntley [~ghuntley@14-200-9-232.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: kthxbye] 03:10:03 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:10:16 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:10:39 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 03:11:40 donigan [~donigan@69-92-2-116.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:48 http://anime.scripts.mit.edu/resources/mit_in_anime.php 03:12:55 I bet the MAGI are Lisp Machines ;) 03:14:27 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:14:47 Wow, nice attention to details 03:15:35 (lisp in Serial Experiments Lain) 03:15:36 ghuntley [~ghuntley@14-200-9-232.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:16:51 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:18:46 sigh ensure-method doesn't have the same method header in closer-mop as it has in amop 03:18:53 that cuts it for today 03:20:12 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 03:21:01 Frozenlo`: Yeah, I have to applaud whoever took that screenshot 03:21:29 I thought the interesting detail with the Lain shot is that you can look up that code in the CMU repository. 03:21:41 -!- CrazyEddy [~unisonal@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:22:19 miql_ [~miql@ip98-165-228-225.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:38 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-129-155.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 03:23:12 Bike: link? (I know where the repo is, but not where this particular snippet is) 03:23:44 Don't remember. Wikipedia's article on the series might have linked to it; if not, it shouldn't be that hard to find in the repository. It's a simple Game of Life proram. Still runs, too. 03:25:35 Oh 03:26:52 fvw [~user@14.215.220.159] has joined #lisp 03:27:03 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:27:49 -!- fvw [~user@14.215.220.159] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:28:04 fvw [~user@14.215.220.159] has joined #lisp 03:28:33 -!- fvw [~user@14.215.220.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:29:07 fvw [~user@14.215.220.159] has joined #lisp 03:30:13 -!- Excalibur39 [~Excalibur@h194.28.30.71.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [] 03:31:18 nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-27-42.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:32:38 -!- sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 03:34:03 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-114-139-31.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:34:32 CrazyEddy [~harmoniou@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 03:37:56 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.62.16] has joined #lisp 03:43:16 macoovacany 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echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:54:18 morning all 07:54:49 TWA [~TWA@softbank219018116166.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:11 -!- TWA [~TWA@softbank219018116166.bbtec.net] has left #lisp 07:55:34 its much too early in the day to be morning... let me just climb back in bed. 08:00:14 BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has joined #lisp 08:04:53 mishoo_ [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has joined #lisp 08:06:04 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:06:12 ZabaQ [~Zaba@85-132-136-40-static.vivo.cz] has joined #lisp 08:08:20 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 08:11:32 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-72-66-102-48.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:17:28 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:19:17 -!- pavelpenev [d4e986ac@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.233.134.172] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:19:40 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:44 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:22:12 ngz [~user@23.78.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:35 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-121-62.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:28:20 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-208-100.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:28:27 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-121-62.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:22 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 08:29:36 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:34:27 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-208-100.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:35:03 -!- CrazyEddy [~harmoniou@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:38:31 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-102-3.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: unhealthfulness] 08:39:07 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-208-100.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:39:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:40:01 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@87.247.49.218] has joined #lisp 08:40:01 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 08:40:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.49.218] has quit [Changing host] 08:40:02 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:47:00 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.64.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:47:17 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.64.244] has joined #lisp 08:49:50 CrazyEddy [~coerciona@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:51:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:53:18 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:55:50 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@85-132-136-40-static.vivo.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:57:30 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:58:25 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 09:08:07 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-233-208.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 09:08:16 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-212.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:08:37 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-212.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:19:01 osa1 [~sinan@88.242.137.36] has joined #lisp 09:21:54 ZabaQ [~Zaba@85-132-136-40-static.vivo.cz] has joined #lisp 09:28:57 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-208-100.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:26 osa1__ [~sinan@88.244.10.194] has joined #lisp 09:31:17 -!- osa1 [~sinan@88.242.137.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:36:53 i can't get the C-SPC thing in clim to highlight anything other then the cursor itself.... 09:36:53 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129155035.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 09:39:33 -!- sunmix [~user@49.49.128.114] has left #lisp 09:40:28 oh man, why does it have to be that complex..... 09:41:00 enabling highlighting draws a box around the chars....., not very what it stands for...... 09:43:24 deca 09:43:34 sorry 09:44:32 -!- osa1__ [~sinan@88.244.10.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:45:01 -!- Kazinator [~kaz@S0106687f7426d0eb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:47:33 hi channel; 09:47:44 hi hi 09:48:16 anybody knows a decent lisp implementation for armv7l arch? 09:48:27 -!- glompst [~glompst@ip24-251-136-31.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:48:48 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:09 can I load asdf system from quicklisp directory but using asdf only? I want to load swank in sbcl-based deamon, which is loaded without quicklisp system. 09:54:10 probably 09:54:29 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:55:01 don't load quicklisp, set central-registry to that path , and use asdf ? 09:55:37 i don't know if that will work 09:55:57 sunmix [~user@49.49.128.114] has joined #lisp 09:56:29 maybe you have to setup links in /usr/share/common-lisp/systems anyway or in your local user dir or in sbcls site-systems folder or so.... 09:56:37 \\\\\\\\ed 09:56:50 ignas_ [~ignas@ip-195-14-175-155.bnk.lt] has joined #lisp 09:56:58 benny [~benny@i577A12EF.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:58:51 -!- hba [~hba@189.130.157.210] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:59:13 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.1] has joined #lisp 10:02:03 thanks 10:03:04 easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 10:03:57 SHODAN [~shozan@c-a9b1e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:05:09 -!- Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-50-49.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:07:15 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-208-100.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:09:33 araujo: ECL. 10:14:32 espadrine [~thaddee_t@acces2477.res.insa-lyon.fr] has joined #lisp 10:16:27 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:20:43 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:21:43 The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:58 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:30:26 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 10:30:34 Guthur [~user@host86-148-138-15.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:31:27 -!- easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has quit [Quit: Outta here?] 10:38:35 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-034.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:38:37 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-034.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:38:37 Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-034.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:38:38 Joreji___ [~thomas@u-0-034.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:39:21 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 10:39:24 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-402294.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 10:41:20 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-396236.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:45:46 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-048-143.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:33 osa1 [~sinan@88.244.10.194] has joined #lisp 10:58:24 http://paste.lisp.org/display/127364 10:58:33 TimoT [~ttossava@cs168133.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:58:39 -!- TimoT [~ttossava@cs168133.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 10:59:02 why in clisp this prints two lines? (progn (princ "|") (princ (coerce '(#\| #\Newline) 'string)) (values)) 11:00:36 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:01:20 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:01:24 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 11:02:39 d1 11:02:50 sorry 11:03:15 ccorn [~ccorn@dhcp-077-249-189-185.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 11:04:14 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@dhcp-077-249-189-185.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 11:06:58 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:07:11 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 11:13:07 -!- ASau` [~user@95-26-139-80.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:13:22 -!- ngz [~user@23.78.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:13:25 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:13:27 Kenjin, because of some *print-* variable. Don't remember anymore. Use with-standard-io-syntax 11:13:36 kanru, ^ 11:13:40 ASau [~user@95-26-139-80.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 11:13:45 dtw: :P 11:13:46 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 11:14:08 asvil` [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 11:14:57 -!- asvil` [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:16:05 -!- kilon_alios is now known as kilon 11:17:34 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082B766.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:55 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082B0FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:21:27 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:21:51 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 11:25:04 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.206.187] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:27:05 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:27:16 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 11:27:29 faust45 [~faust45@94-248-107-155.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 11:29:17 dtw: thanks! 11:31:36 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:31:52 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 11:32:00 find it: CUSTOM:*PPRINT-FIRST-NEWLINE* 11:33:18 vervic [~vervic@188-23-228-94.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:33:59 CLISP has all those weird things. 11:37:43 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 11:38:42 does this channel have a bot ? 11:39:02 (setf *print-pretty* nil) 11:39:06 homie: it did. 11:39:39 homie: they've all gone AWOL 11:39:43 so no more 11:40:31 not sure why though 11:40:55 jokoon [~zonax@83.152.181.214] has joined #lisp 11:41:05 could be an admin thing or an aversion to bots in general 11:41:37 hmm ok 11:42:54 I'm making a CL bot at the moment, but it's more to test bed some idea 11:43:00 ideas* 11:43:05 oh ok 11:47:04 Admin. But anyways, newbies didn't read the advices given by the bots... 11:49:21 wait do you mean the polluted the channel, or did they do funny things in query mode ? 11:50:12 clhs car followed by an url didn't motivate the newbies to read it. 11:50:48 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 11:51:56 gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:56:25 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 11:58:42 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:44 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:11:38 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-12-172.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:13:27 The_third_man [~The_third@78.234.200.168] has joined #lisp 12:15:55 paralumina [~paralumin@ip72-213-141-195.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:38 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:16:53 Are nested lists bad style? Should they be avoided? 12:17:23 paralumina: Not intrinsically bad. 12:17:54 Thanks, Xach. 12:18:45 It's bad to use list/cons accessors when using lists for more abstract purposes, though. 12:19:02 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:47 neena [~neena@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 12:22:27 what would be an abstract purpose? I have been writing various neural nets, all which have allowed me to grasp the idea of the ANN, but they were terrible LISP code; multiple (setf)'s and loops. But what I've been doing was having one list being my inputs, and another list contain lists of the weights for each neuron on the next layer. So if there were 4 inputs, the next layer would be a list of n-neurons and those contained a list of 12:22:27 4 weights. Would this be a bad style? 12:23:50 from a distance it sounds ok, but would arrays not do just as well 12:24:48 paralumina: multiple setfs and loops are not terrible. 12:25:06 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:26:15 Guthur: Arrays would work, but it still seems that they would be nested somehow. 12:26:26 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:26:41 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:59 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest5145 12:27:12 Xach: It just didn't feel like it was right. Seemed too long and I didn't feel I understood the more intricate nature of LISP. 12:27:36 ANN in general are better implemented using vectors or arrays. 12:28:17 paralumina: It takes time to develop a feel. 12:29:22 samebcha1e [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 12:29:55 -!- samebcha1e [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Client Quit] 12:30:21 Thanks guys for your advice. 12:30:27 -!- neena [~neena@76.73.121.203] has quit [Changing host] 12:30:27 neena [~neena@unaffiliated/neenaoffline] has joined #lisp 12:31:26 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 12:35:08 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:37:18 -!- paralumina [~paralumin@ip72-213-141-195.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:49:06 -!- ft [efftee@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has quit [Quit: demons to some, angels to others] 12:50:38 sunmix` [~user@49.49.126.223] has joined #lisp 12:52:08 -!- sunmix [~user@49.49.128.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:54:53 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:06 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:58:39 -!- sunmix` [~user@49.49.126.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:03:43 -!- Whitesquall [~notwhites@212.106.42.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:04:22 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.64.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:07:53 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-115-15-201.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:07:54 when one has a project with multiple systems is it better practice to have all the defsystems in one root .asd or to have separate asdf files 13:08:02 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:08:13 I prefer to have each defsystem in its own file. 13:08:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:09:23 I was considering that approach 13:10:26 -!- vervic [~vervic@188-23-228-94.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: vervic] 13:14:03 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:14:05 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:14:50 naeg_ [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 13:15:38 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 13:16:54 dnjaramba_ [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 13:17:11 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:19:30 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.201.152] has joined #lisp 13:20:16 ft [efftee@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has joined #lisp 13:24:07 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:24:17 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.1] has joined #lisp 13:25:57 Xach: does quicklisp not search the whole depth of projects in local-projects 13:26:41 if I have local-projects/my-project/sub-system/sub-system.asd 13:26:53 can I load it with quicklisp 13:27:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:28:29 sunmix [~user@223.206.188.222] has joined #lisp 13:29:01 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:30:42 vervic [~vervic@188-23-228-94.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:32:33 Guthur: no, it doesn't, only one level down 13:32:38 nialo [~nialo@ool-18bc96a3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:52 I suppose that's actually safer in a way 13:34:08 a project can have contribs in sub directories 13:37:58 -!- antgreen [~user@70.50.65.30] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:38:46 sunmix` [~user@171.4.245.79] has joined #lisp 13:39:30 -!- sunmix [~user@223.206.188.222] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:39:50 -!- sunmix` [~user@171.4.245.79] has left #lisp 13:39:50 lobo_d_b [~lobo@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 13:39:56 bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:8a53:8940:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has joined #lisp 13:40:07 -!- jokoon [~zonax@83.152.181.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:40:57 JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 13:42:02 -!- vervic [~vervic@188-23-228-94.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: vervic] 13:42:53 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 13:43:07 gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:43:35 leo2007 [~leo@110.84.86.7] has joined #lisp 13:43:36 -!- scrimohsin [~csimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: adieu.] 13:47:32 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:47:52 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:49:03 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:50:01 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:54:03 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-121-62.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:28 Guthur: it does search 13:55:41 Guthur: however, the auto-scanning is based on the modification date of the top-level directory 13:56:10 Guthur: deep changes in the hierarchy are not automatically scanned but will appear after a manual (ql:register-local-projects) 13:56:40 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-121-62.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:59:07 Guthur: sorry, I remembered wrong (thanks Xach for correcting me) 13:59:22 no problem 13:59:26 it's not documented 14:01:01 ok, strange though, this was a new system and it never picked it up at all 14:01:27 I was frobbing quite a few things so it is possible I screwed something up 14:02:45 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:59 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:03:53 JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 14:04:32 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:05:34 -!- airolson 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14:18:50 -!- kpal [~kpal@109.249.214.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:20:39 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-233-208.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 14:33:59 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129155035.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:34:08 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 14:35:50 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:38:06 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 14:38:22 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:43 vervic [~vervic@188-23-228-94.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:44:45 is there any templates for make CL project online documentation 14:44:52 I like the style similar to CFFI 14:44:59 LiamH [~healy@184-49-130-164.washdca.washdc.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:13 -!- vervic [~vervic@188-23-228-94.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: vervic] 14:48:30 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 14:50:43 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:22 -!- ayan [~ayan@fl-69-69-27-16.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:04:47 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@85-132-136-40-static.vivo.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:05:08 Do you need documentation from docstrings? If it is so, that atdoc is good library. 15:09:11 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-137-152.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:22 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:10:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:11:17 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:11:37 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:20 rudi [~rudi@cm-84.208.89.228.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 15:16:31 Guthur: /me actually wondered about same thing recently 15:17:01 in Elisp, there is a standard, things in back/single-quote pairs meaning hyperlinks etc 15:17:54 would be cool if CL had same javadoc like standard, and Slime C-c C-d (describe symbol) parsed and did hyperlinks, and inspect of functions etc 15:18:02 asvil: not just the docstrings though that might be helpful 15:18:17 I'd like some html templates, I suppose 15:18:45 maxm--: that's certainly along the lines of what I am thinking about 15:19:51 would be easy enough, i suppose, to generate stubs for all the exported symbols 15:19:55 ...maybe 15:20:54 I did something like this for the sbcl manual, parsing docstrings and marking up ALL-CAPS parts 15:21:02 ngz [~user@23.78.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:00 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 15:22:20 it would be an obvious thing to look for functions with the same name and frob their display 15:22:39 s/their display/the display of their name to include a link/ 15:22:55 might be worthwhile side project 15:23:15 It seems the all-caps is kind of un-official standard 15:23:16 Guthur: atdoc extends docstrings with some syntax to crossreferences and other featuers. 15:23:28 *maxm--* has to check out atdoc 15:23:51 dnolen [~user@12.130.127.2] has joined #lisp 15:24:06 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.224] has joined #lisp 15:24:18 maxm--: all-caps was widely used in CL docstrings, similar to the `identifier' notation in elisp docstrings 15:24:44 still, some kind of a or syntax would be great too, as I'm finding myself formatting a lot of table-like stuff manually.. ARG can be one of: 'FOO - does one thing 'BAR - does other thing 15:24:45 I liked `' more because it's unambiguous, but was persuaded to go with ALL-CAPS 15:25:20 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:25:23 maxm--: you mean lists? these are handled by the sbcl docstring->texinfo thingy 15:25:51 did not know that, have to look at whats the source syntax for it is 15:26:12 similar to how org-mode does it (which didn't exist at that time iirc): a line starting with "- " begins a list item containing all subsequent lines starting with " " 15:26:28 Guthur what about html-template? 15:26:58 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl20-196-106.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:27:28 anyway, the design principle was to leave docstrings looking as they are when printed out as strings, and try to infer some semantics from indentation and other notation conventions 15:28:53 if anyone reads a plain docstring they should never have to wonder about [some] weird {fn:@}notation 15:29:20 *maxm--* has no problem reading javadocs with their html stuff 15:29:20 asvil: I'll be checking it out 15:29:37 plus emacs can be smart and display it formatted, or whatever other IDE 15:29:42 maxm--: different culture, that. 15:29:53 when in rome, do as the romans do 15:29:54 rudi: it is possible to redefine docstring reader, I think. 15:30:07 -!- LiamH [~healy@184-49-130-164.washdca.washdc.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:30:32 asvil: you have to redefine joe random-library-author as well to make a docstring reader useful. 15:31:06 Joe java-author uses docstring notation, Joe lisp-author uses email-like plain-text. 15:31:21 one has to start somewhere, if slime supports it, it will take off 15:31:34 a tool to deal with the respective documentation will be useful inasmuch as it fits in the existing 50-year culture 15:32:15 I took the existing sbcl docstrings, which are plain-text, and made them look more pretty in printed documentation 15:33:11 don't let me discourage you - by all means, experiment away! 15:34:12 just throwing ideas around, as I would prefer a standard enforced by having slime or such display it nicely.. Coz I'm finding myself inventing and forgetting my own stupid conventions while documenting my own stuff 15:34:41 rgrau [~user@80.31.142.83] has joined #lisp 15:34:43 OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 15:35:06 rudi: you are right, and lisp-style of docstrings is plain text, but what about internationalisation? 15:35:28 this I can't answer 15:35:49 was beach not looking into internationalised docstrings at one point 15:37:12 on another note.., 15:37:15 is it normal for cffi:defcfun to cause SAP to pointer coercion notes with SBCL 15:38:44 RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:41:21 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-23-71.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:21 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-23-71.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:41:21 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 15:41:51 umm, sorry might be something else 15:42:34 Guthur: I would expect that. 15:43:30 pkhuong: oh, ok 15:43:55 would have assumed they would be muffled in cffi:defcfun...at the least 15:46:02 Guthur: from what I remember you get it with either debug 3 and safety > 1 or something similar 15:46:11 or speed 2 or such 15:46:55 funnily enough /me has a todo item to convert his C++ trading stuff lib to cffi from SBCL native pointers, because SBCL ones are slower, due to the double-pointing 15:47:41 maxm--: that's only when youuse it wrong. 15:47:45 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 15:47:47 SBCL pointers are actually sb-alien:something-or-other, which is a struct containing pointer to the type, and the actual sap 15:48:10 It's meant to be a statically-typed sublanguage, in which all the typed alien pointers are optimised away. 15:48:38 guess I'm doing something wrong, as I looked at assembly and it does not optimze it out for me 15:48:44 I'll submit a test case once I get to it 15:49:07 you need a lot of inlining to get that. 15:49:44 if you want to work directly with SAPs, you can as well; they're treated as void pointers by the FFI. 15:51:09 still, it's the reason sb-alien will emit optimization notes regarding that kind of boxing even at low/no optimisation levels. 15:53:59 *maxm--* is getting "forced to do runtime allocation of alien structure" 15:54:15 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 15:54:26 this is for fully defined structure, and (define-alien-routine) that is called with pointer to it declared inline 15:54:50 -!- ignas_ [~ignas@ip-195-14-175-155.bnk.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:55:31 anyway, I don't have time to debug this right now, to give proper report as to whats going on 15:57:36 so, there is nothing I can really do which using the CFFI interface 15:57:36 maxm--: you'll get that note for the out-of-line definition. 15:57:48 which/while 15:59:43 list [~luis@net-188-216-127-215.cust.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 15:59:53 -!- list [~luis@net-188-216-127-215.cust.dsl.vodafone.it] has left #lisp 16:00:45 -!- osa1 [~sinan@88.244.10.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03:14 ZabaQ [~Zaba@85-132-136-40-static.vivo.cz] has joined #lisp 16:05:02 pkhuong: ok got it, it disappears with speed 3 16:07:03 chawks [~chawls@85.64.36.18.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:02 for some reason I remember it not doing this before 16:10:21 *maxm--* is doing tricky stuff, marrying boost::shared-ptr with lisp objects 16:10:33 so that shared-ptr gets dereferenced when lisp object is gc'ed 16:11:05 wicked 16:11:10 miql_ [~miql@ip98-165-228-225.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:08 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-18bc96a3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:13:10 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-152-154.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:28 rgrau` [~user@34.Red-88-17-165.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:41 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-121-62.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:16:07 -!- rgrau [~user@80.31.142.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:17:15 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:36 maxm--: good luck! 16:19:20 vantage|home [~vantage@7.40-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 16:19:40 kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 16:19:49 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:20:48 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-048-143.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:21:32 maxm-- dereferenced or have it's destructor called? 16:21:39 araujo: not sure if anyone has answered (didn't read the full scrollback) but i *think* CCL works on it. in fact, i think the pre has an armv7 core and ccl certainly ran on that. as an alternative, ecl should work as well. 16:24:03 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:24:14 kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 16:25:08 -!- __main__ 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host closed the connection] 16:44:25 thank's checking it out 16:45:52 cl-sendmail could be the easiest way, if sendmail has been configured 16:46:00 *madnificent* should check out allegro maild 16:49:10 just tried cl-smtp, worked nicely 16:50:25 (send-email host from to subject message) 16:55:57 decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has joined #lisp 17:01:43 Snaffu [~Snaffu@oh-69-34-16-39.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:10 -!- Snaffu [~Snaffu@oh-69-34-16-39.sta.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 17:04:32 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-50-49.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:39 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-137-152.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:04:58 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-137-152.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:05:26 -!- jacks- [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Quit: leaving] 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[~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:21:09 *Cosman246* is frustrated that the EU has signed ACTA 18:21:30 ACTA got the Polish parliament to wear Guy Fawkes masks! 18:21:45 donigan [~donigan@69-92-2-116.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:09 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:03 They weren't real brand name Guy Fawkes (TM) masks either, but cheap, Chinese knock-offs. 18:26:35 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 18:26:35 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:26:36 is there a reward for reporting them to Time Warner 18:27:28 anyway, it was th populists... untried, too 18:28:33 There should be more protests surrounding it 18:29:02 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: +++ATH0] 18:29:13 I'm glad, at least, that there were protests in Poland 18:31:31 garslo [~user@99-44-180-131.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:38 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 18:31:47 I've been wondering, wouldn't it be possible to move garbage collection (based on reference-counting) to compile-time in some theoretical Lisp language? The idea being to get rid of run-time garbage collection that way. 18:32:01 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:05 *Kazinator* stopped reading at reference-counting. :) 18:33:16 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:8a53:8940:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:33:40 Well, I'm not too sure of my terminology, sorry. 18:33:51 I might mean something different entirely. 18:33:53 all those protests just make people forget that they should be voting for someone else. instead they all always vote in the same people (who keep doing the same), and then they try to change policy by "protesting". protesting is the stupidest way to take part in a democracy. instead of voting, you have to go to the streets and cry out loud. 18:35:45 moah: What about in areas where the dominant parties are virtually indistinguishable? 18:36:01 How do you get people to know? 18:36:49 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:36:59 Garbage collection can't be moved to compile time because garbage generation happens at run-time. Maybe you mean that the computation of object lifetimes could be moved to compile time. 18:37:34 http://paste.lisp.org/display/127369 18:37:49 You can do that for some objects, but not others. 18:37:56 could someone point out where the majority of the cons is happening 18:38:12 having trouble reading the :alloc report from sb-sprof 18:38:13 E.g. local variable in a function which never returns the value of the variable, and never creates an escaping closure. 18:38:53 -!- donigan [~donigan@69-92-2-116.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:38:59 Guthur: I've done profiling in the past, and all the consing always happens in this function called cons. 18:39:23 likely culprit 18:39:47 I'm not calling it directly though 18:39:57 so I would like to know who is 18:40:00 Guthur: zmq:recvmsg looks like all consing in inside of that 18:40:50 in the (defmethod recvmsg (obj (zsg little-zmq::message))) method 18:40:56 Cosman246: then vote for a non-dominant party. (I think we're off-topic here) 18:41:15 jtza8: If you want to statically compute all object lifetimes, I suspect that can only be done with severe limitations in the language. I.e. programs can't create a value in an arbitrary place and communicate that value via arbitrary data flows to arbitrary other places in the program and its data structures. 18:41:17 maxm--:cheers, will look at that 18:43:11 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:43:12 umm, I think it's because I use conditions to signal EINTR, which means creating a condition 18:45:52 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128000203.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 18:46:32 Kazinator: You got the correct idea. I'm not sure I understand why a local variable in a function which never returns the value or creates an escaping closure could not be dealt with though. 18:46:54 Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.212.140] has joined #lisp 18:47:19 Considering the problem at a deeper level. 18:47:32 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.156.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:47:35 rgrau`` [~user@80.31.140.37] has joined #lisp 18:47:47 jtza8: that's the case that /can/ be dealt with. 18:48:38 -!- Kron [~Kron@199.91.212.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:48:40 Furthermore, we have (declare (dynamic-extent ...)) to make an explicit request for it. 18:49:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:49:31 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:49:42 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:10 -!- rgrau` [~user@34.Red-88-17-165.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:50:17 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:23 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 18:50:37 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 18:51:09 I misunderstood, sorry. 18:52:09 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:55:05 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:56:50 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 18:59:11 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@host83.190-31-137.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:59:22 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 19:00:22 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:02:56 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:04:26 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:08:25 teggi [~teggi@123.21.156.9] has joined #lisp 19:08:39 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-148-138-15.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14:10 osa1 [~sinan@88.242.163.158] has joined #lisp 19:14:33 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.156.9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:16:57 ngz [~user@23.78.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:34 solussd [~solussd@user-0cdvten.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:44 donigan [~donigan@69-92-2-116.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:14 could someone in plain english tell me what is happening here: `(,',v) unquoting, then quoting, and then unquoting v in a back quoted list seems to equal a list with an unquoted v, not the value of v. :/ 19:19:35 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:19:35 *not a list with the value of v 19:24:37 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:52 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 19:25:34 *maxm--* always found its easier to split such stuff into helper function, because my head hurts every time I look at stuff like that 19:25:39 solussd: "Comma not inside a backquote" 19:25:49 what are you trying to do? 19:25:53 nothing. 19:25:57 ford-noob [~ubuntu@79-76-244-149.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:04 i'm trying to understand what that code is doing 19:26:23 solussd: there is an error, two commas and one backquote. 19:26:31 I don't think that code is legal 19:26:45 sorry, I meant this: ``(,',v) 19:26:56 oops 19:26:57 -!- sysop_fb [~fb@108-66-160-34.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:27:09 solussd: you should read "Quasiquotation" by Alen Bawden. 19:27:09 nevermind- this isn't translating right brb 19:27:50 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:28:06 maxm--- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:24 -!- maxm--- is now known as maxm- 19:28:29 -!- maxm-- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28:38 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 19:29:05 alright, this: (let ((v 1)) ``(,',v)) equals (list '1) 19:29:06 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 19:29:20 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-208-100.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:29:32 i think I answered my question. that makes sense to me my typo earier did not. :P 19:29:51 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-208-100.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:30:16 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-138-220.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:31:25 bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:2420:ea0:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has joined #lisp 19:31:32 http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/petrovich.html 19:33:00 sysop_fb [~fb@108-66-160-34.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:19 -!- pnq1 is now known as pnq 19:34:51 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 19:35:00 -!- rgrau`` is now known as rgrau 19:35:45 -!- ford-noob [~ubuntu@79-76-244-149.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Quit: router trobule .. bak in a sec!] 19:40:15 -!- donigan [~donigan@69-92-2-116.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:40:23 donigan [~donigan@69-92-2-116.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:05 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 19:46:01 how anyone besides its developers can use an application with no stable releases? 19:46:33 decaf: the definition of stable is wide and deep, enough for some fishes to swim there 19:47:00 :D 19:47:30 fe[nl]ix: it's piss-poor translation of a common polish joke about the word "maybe" :) 19:47:38 but fits 19:47:55 -!- solussd [~solussd@user-0cdvten.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: solussd] 19:47:59 "deep and wide is the river of shit and treacherous waters of thee" is one of my favorite quotes 19:48:04 solussd [~solussd@user-0cdvten.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:05 haha 19:48:20 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-092-073-076-141.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 19:48:27 in polish, the difference between "maybe" and "sea" is one letter, sort of :) 19:48:53 (maybe is "moe", and sea is "morze") 19:50:11 anyway, it's possible to forgo releases while still making a "stable" version of the software, with CI 19:50:27 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50:50 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 19:52:21 -!- solussd [~solussd@user-0cdvten.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:52:43 -!- osa1 [~sinan@88.242.163.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:56:09 osa1 [~sinan@88.242.163.158] has joined #lisp 19:58:02 Whitesquall [~notwhites@109.225.58.52] has joined #lisp 20:03:48 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-174-201.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:17 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:06:20 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 20:08:10 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:08:26 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 20:11:55 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:12:33 solussd [~solussd@user-0cdvten.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:34 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@8-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:13:54 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:14:29 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:14:41 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:15:40 lemoinem [~swoog@8-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:24 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-26.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:16:40 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:58 n1tn4tsn0k|2 [~moo@188.19.235.171] has joined #lisp 20:17:37 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:41 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:19:38 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~moo@178.47.222.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:24:15 Excalibur39 [~Excalibur@h158.182.117.75.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:27 hello all 20:25:19 o/ 20:26:59 ejbs [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 20:28:02 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:29:02 So I'm playing around with CL-WHO and I have absolutely no idea why the first paragraph works like it should but the second doesnt, can anyone take a look? http://paste.lisp.org/display/127372 20:31:36 *ejbs* changed the code from i to (str i) and now it works 20:33:23 The second block of code works unchanged for me 20:34:13 samebchase: Really? Well, what output do you get? 20:34:33 "" 20:35:17 samebchase: Yeah, I should've said what I expected too (d'oh), test it with (str i) and you'll see what I expected 20:36:02 oh 20:36:07 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:36:30 str causes i to be evaluated 20:37:07 hmm 20:37:46 ejbs: the evaluation rules for CL-WHO can be surprising, but they're actually simple; reading the documentation usually clears things up for me. 20:39:33 -!- BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:44 -!- YokYok [~david@ec2-107-21-81-230.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:39:50 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-174-201.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:39:58 pkhuong: Guess I should've skimmed it through more carefully! 20:41:14 YokYok [~david@ec2-107-21-81-230.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 20:41:25 I admire the decision Edi made there; cl-who doesn't try to be clever with a codewalker, or compiler macros to ensure decent performance. It just has this simplistic DSL, and you use the escape hatch as needed. 20:41:28 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@8-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:42:04 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.94.7] has joined #lisp 20:42:04 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:42:27 can someone look at 2397 20:42:29 ejbs: this also means that it often makes sense to only evaluate for effect (printing to the html stream) in position where you can have arbitrary html. 20:43:15 Excalibur39: what do you mean by 2397 20:43:35 -!- osa1 [~sinan@88.242.163.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:43:50 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl20-196-106.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 20:43:53 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl20-196-106.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:43:56 the captcha that is pasted on http://paste.lisp.org/submit 20:44:15 -!- gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-fhgjzuksuvbnvpgd] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:44:37 -!- foom [jknight@nat/google/x-vbypbwoqpemvtjcc] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:44:47 Excalibur39: it would be awesome if you managed to make sense. 20:45:06 Excalibur39: how do you expect me to find the submit by referencing captcha man 20:45:09 :D 20:45:29 you need to paste the link paste.lisp.org gives you after the submit 20:45:51 let me look 20:47:10 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.201.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:48:22 he means this one: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127373 20:49:27 -!- venk is now known as vpit3833 20:49:56 -!- naeg_ [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:50:00 foom [jknight@nat/google/x-buqgsjzcuaduggmc] has joined #lisp 20:50:00 gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-mzwdabuodvbdawcd] has joined #lisp 20:50:08 -!- garslo [~user@99-44-180-131.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 20:50:17 Excalibur39: Dude, go back, read up. 20:50:50 (defun first-of-second (my-list) (car (cadr my-list))) 20:51:05 Excalibur39: but seriously, trying things like this doesn't help you 20:51:28 RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:28 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:51:34 stickycake [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:39 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:53:15 RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:54:25 I have read up and that is not what I pasted this is what I pasted (defun first-of-second (arg1 arg2 arg3) (car (cadr '((arg1) (arg2) (arg3))))) 20:54:32 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.206.187] has joined #lisp 20:54:58 Excalibur39: i wrote you the correct version 20:55:05 not your version 20:55:13 oh 20:56:20 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-212.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:29 because I did just (car (cadr '((a b) (c d) (e f)))) and it gave me C 20:56:38 which is what I want 20:56:55 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:57:47 Excalibur39: you're operating on literal data, like "strings". 20:57:47 BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:54 I have read that cl considers when it does it repl it does take a string first 21:00:10 then variable 21:01:32 sometimes people enthusiasm for programming way outstrips their abilities. Excalibur, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how things work 21:01:41 A means value of A 21:01:44 'A means literal A 21:01:44 I thought you were learning from Touretzky's book. 21:02:04 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 21:02:39 and I know that DEFUN is a special kind of function, called a macro function, that does 21:02:39 not evaluate its arguments. Therefore they do not have to be quoted. DEFUN 21:02:39 is used to define other functions. The first input to DEFUN is the name of the 21:02:39 function being defined. The second input is the argument list: It specifies the 21:02:39 names the function will use to refer to its arguments. The remaining inputs to 21:02:39 DEFUN define the body of the function: what goes on inside the box. 21:03:05 don't paste here please 21:03:17 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.31.44] has joined #lisp 21:05:01 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:54 so I have the first is the name then 3 arguments and then the defining my arguments 21:06:25 Socrates was a Greek philosopher 21:06:33 'Socrates is a symbol 21:06:44 wait, no 21:06:54 you have the name, then arguments, and then the body of the function. the body is evaluated when function is called 21:06:59 'Socrates is a name containing 8 letters 21:07:04 better 21:07:30 so inside the body, ARG1 will be the value of the first argument, but '(ARG1) will be a literal list containing symbel ARG 21:08:12 just as if you had wrote in C, puts(arg) will print the value of char pointer stored in arg, but puts("arg") will print the literal string "arg" 21:11:40 it doesn't put so lets say you call upon first-of-second and you passed '((a b) (1 x) (e f))' they wouldn't be come the symbolic arg 21:13:50 meaning arg1= (a b) arg2 = (1 x) and arg3 = (e f) 21:14:32 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.61] has joined #lisp 21:15:15 Excalibur39: you said you know c++, how skilled are you in c++ really? 21:16:52 they say other languages screw the understanding and you need to unlearn some of it before understanding lisp but you are at completely another level right now 21:17:35 i suspect you don't really know much c++ or whatever, do you? 21:18:11 enlightening a person like this requires going back to complete basics 21:18:32 I know C++ I don't know lisp I written in enough C++ over 10000000 lines of code 21:18:37 as it some kind of "intro to programming", what are math operators, what is precedence, what are variables and their values etc 21:19:28 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:19:42 mishoo_ [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has joined #lisp 21:20:56 Excalibur39: try http://www.reddit.com/r/learnprogramming 21:21:02 when reddit comes back 21:21:03 -!- rudi [~rudi@cm-84.208.89.228.getinternet.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 21:21:58 Excalibur39:I would caution against using lines of code as a measure of knowledge 21:23:46 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-138-220.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:24:05 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:25:56 whoa, things looked to have gone downhill fast in that convo, hehe 21:25:57 I have been reading all day on lisp all the tutorials I could get my hands all website that have been posted here trying to figure this out and none of its clicking now I have guys saying I need to know the basics of programming when I have don't my fair share of programming and all I ask for is help not critism gee thanks for the help or should I say criticm 21:25:59 -!- Excalibur39 [~Excalibur@h158.182.117.75.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has left #lisp 21:26:27 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-224-117.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:46 oh dear 21:26:46 this guy is incredible 21:27:54 mensch [~mensch@c-174-62-210-182.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:25 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-235-136.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:28:38 he'll probably go and post something about how lispers are surly and unhelpful 21:28:45 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:29:48 lol 21:30:51 Guthur: he tries to write functions that simply cars and cdrs a list for 3 days now and still fails to understand how to use a parameter inside a function 21:31:04 LiamH [~healy@173-165-155-170-charleston.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:25 How many Lisps can a person write in 10M LOC? 21:31:26 and he expects people to believe he wrote 10M lines of code 21:31:31 kenanb: hard to believe he's written actual C++ which works. 21:31:53 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:32:01 maybe he's one of those programmers which cause more damage than add value to the team? 21:32:02 Did he say it worked? 21:32:04 pjb: hi 21:32:14 pjb: did you buy a raspberry? 21:32:19 rtoym: hehe. no. he didn't. 21:32:23 is it out? 21:32:24 I'm reminded of a freshman at umontreal ~2 years ago who had thousands of LOC under his belt. Turns out it was nearly all generated in VS. 21:32:37 *Guthur* runs off to check raspberrypi 21:32:51 ehu: I confess when I first started with lisp, I got confused with symbols and variables. Took me a while. :-) 21:32:56 Jovlang [~user@36.109-247-16.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:02 pkhuong: the true virtue in a programmer is knowing how to eliminate code, not add it. 21:33:27 rtoym: I had a good coach learning it (sitting next to him) 21:33:33 considering this paste of him: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127373 21:33:38 the symbols concept can definitely be a little alien at the beginning 21:33:49 he infact wrote 1M LOC if he is telling the truth 21:33:50 Cosman246: even worse, in belgium there has been no reporting on acta in itself. the only report there was was "people have protested with masks because of acta" no explenation as to what acta was, why it was wrong or whatnot. our media seems to become increasingly right-wing. 21:33:57 so, all of that helps, but clue doesn't come with a good coach, I'm affraid. 21:34:04 wildnux [~wildnux@pool-71-97-2-15.dfw.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:06 I didn't really understand it until I got a book. 21:35:10 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@pool-71-97-2-15.dfw.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:35:25 this coach gave me LISP right after my first question :-) 21:35:34 outdated, but still very sound on the basics. 21:35:43 I still have problems with using and understand continuations. Fortunately, I don't have to deal with that anywhere. 21:36:00 ehu: too bad lisp projects don't work that way 21:36:01 Which LISP? 21:36:43 rtoym: common lisp doesn't have a call/cc thing right? what type of continuations are we talking about? 21:36:49 madnificent: What does which political wing they belong to matter? 21:37:17 wildnux [~wildnux@pool-71-97-2-15.dfw.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:42 rtoym: I'll look it up and tell you later. I can't find it now. 21:38:00 madnificent: I don't think they even reported anything here 21:38:05 madnificent: Scheme, of course. I think On Lisp gives an example of continuations in CL. I can understand them when used, I just can't create my own use. 21:38:24 ehu: Not important. My first was LISP by Winston and Horn. 21:38:39 *Guthur* still has to grok continuations 21:38:55 I haven't devoted much effort mind 21:39:02 BTW i really LOLed when he said "can you look at 2396" and explained it is the Captcha of his lisppaste submit when i asked what 2396 stands for 21:39:04 madnificent: still seems better than Murdoch's empire in the US 21:39:05 rtoym: there aren't that many uses of full-blown continuations. Threads and backtracking, AFAIK. 21:39:16 If you're looking for call/cc, you 21:39:18 ejbs: left-wing journalism tends to spread out facts and information, to showcase that they're right. right-wing (at least here) generally doesn't seem to use arguments, or they showcase arguments like "but others do it too, or are more extreme". many of our interviewers walk on towards a right-wing party later in their carreer (at least in flanders). i feel like they are showcasing what big companies need and not saying 21:39:19 else. 21:39:21 rtoym: that's the one :-) I recognize the front page. 21:39:22 My own comprehension of continuations can be summed up as "go-tos with magic sprinkled on top" 21:39:34 you'll find it in cl-cont 21:39:46 ehu: Heh. I liked that book. A bit out-dated, but still very useful. 21:39:46 ejbs: Same here 21:40:43 ejbs: that's pretty damn far. Fork (yes, the posix function) has a very close relationship, though. 21:40:48 ejbs: as a related example: on monday, i think, there's a huge strike going on. it's there to protect our wages. whether you agree or not, is not up to the media, but for such a thing it is quite odd that the media doesn't report on why the strike is there, the only thing they showcased was a speech saying "we want to go forward". that's just enough to make people think they know what it's about but doesn't contain inform 21:41:26 -!- vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtechnology.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:34 sorry, i assume i'm frustrated. (note though: the Walloon media did showcase some of acta, they also covered sopa and pipa) 21:41:39 Hm, writing a Petrovich shell seems like an interesting project 21:41:39 madnificent: Oh, I read a right-wing paper and they always inform on the stuff they cover. They were surprisingly quiet when it came to SOPA/PIPA 21:42:01 ejbs: the magic in continuations is that they resume with the correct state (variable-wise) 21:42:09 espadrine: no they don't. 21:42:11 rtoym: same here. when you have someone around to tell you the differences with CL, you can be up and running quite fast. 21:42:18 ejbs: at least here, they're silent about many things which they shouldn't be silent about. i'm ashamed for them. 21:42:28 pkhuong: how so? 21:42:28 ejbs: might be the same elsewhere, doesn't mean i'm willing to accept it. 21:42:29 madnificent, ejbs: that's OT, please stop 21:42:45 rtoym: i didn't grok that example either btw 21:42:50 One last word 21:42:55 espadrine: they don't undo any mutation. In fact, they would be pretty much useless if they did. 21:43:10 rtoym: at least, it didn't make me conclude how i could roll my own. i could (should) have spent more time on it. 21:43:30 madnificent: Here, if they're scared of it getting widespread support, they won't talk about it. Otherwise, they vilify it 21:43:40 madnificent: is there a right wing in germany? 21:44:07 Posterdati: A) google B) /msg me if you will, but i find fe[nl]ix to be right 21:44:19 ejbs: The continuation of some computation is just the next computation 21:44:38 there's no magic 21:44:40 drdo: but rolling your own in common lisp seemed to be nontrivial 21:45:12 drdo: if i understand correctly, that's what ejbs found to be complex also. not the use of it, but how you build it. 21:45:13 fe[nl]ix: you're not right :) (how are you ?) 21:45:28 madnificent: Maybe we are confusing continuations with first-class continuations? 21:45:35 pkhuong: well, they contain the variables of the scope they are in, so that, even though the variables are changed, you can still access them 21:45:41 drdo: i certainly am, enlighten me 21:45:51 pkhuong: that's how they differ from goto, isn't it? 21:46:07 madnificent: A continuation is just that, what comes next after the current computation 21:46:27 -!- solussd [~solussd@user-0cdvten.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: solussd] 21:46:29 first-class continuations allow you to have an object that represents that next computation 21:46:38 solussd [~solussd@user-0cdvten.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 21:47:02 in scheme for example you get a procedure 21:47:09 drdo: but continuations as per on-lisp did allow you to take a computation, store it, and let it be calculated later on, no? 21:47:13 and you can call it to perform that computation 21:47:27 madnificent: I can't say i read on lisp 21:47:58 drdo: what I find tricky about it is: when do things return to the call-site? 21:48:07 (never?) 21:48:08 ehu: They don't 21:48:12 ah. ok. 21:48:15 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 21:48:29 calling that procedure will replace the current continuation with that one 21:49:27 hmm. ok. and it has the full state of its lexical and dynamic scope. 21:49:34 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.31.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:49:37 that's what it is, isn't it? 21:49:38 It is quite tricky indeed to reason about what will happen 21:49:45 But the idea is simple 21:49:55 -!- Jovlang [~user@36.109-247-16.customer.lyse.net] has left #lisp 21:51:17 -!- solussd [~solussd@user-0cdvten.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:51:38 Frozenlock [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:34 it does sound simple, but whenever I read code which uses it, I still find it hard to understand. I guess you say the same thing when you say 'it's tricky to reason about what will happen" 21:53:09 Yes, it is hard to understand 21:53:56 I guess I'll need more practice 21:54:16 You probably just need to not use them, they are not terribly useful in practice 21:54:38 espadrine: continuations restore variables' state as much as invoking first-class functions do (i.e. not at all). 21:57:04 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@7.40-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 21:57:40 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:00:53 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-402294.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:02:17 alkoma [~alkoma@c-67-160-207-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:01 pkhuong: ok. What I meant was that they gave you access to the scope (the variables). That's what I called state. Sorry. 22:04:44 -!- alkoma [~alkoma@c-67-160-207-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:55 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-398027.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:05:24 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:39 alkoma [~alkoma@c-67-160-207-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:14 -!- alkoma [~alkoma@c-67-160-207-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:30 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:15:44 Kron [~Kron@69.166.20.107] has joined #lisp 22:16:45 -!- Kron [~Kron@69.166.20.107] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:17:10 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.212.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:19:08 alkoma [~alkoma@c-67-160-207-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:40 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.107] has joined #lisp 22:19:52 I wonder where that newbie has gone to 22:19:53 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:20:37 ? 22:20:42 flip214: hi 22:21:14 lnostdal [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:20 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-398027.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:05 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:23:25 Cosman246: you can't help everyone, and that guy was honestly delusional 22:24:53 *maxm-* had people like that come in for interviews, and act hurt and shocked, when after several tries, it being obvious they can't even type at 10 wpm, I was asking "you sure you have 10 years expirience as a senior programmer" 22:26:43 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:26:59 -!- alkoma [~alkoma@c-67-160-207-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:19 alkoma [~alkoma@c-67-160-207-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:33 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:27:55 maxm-: I'm quite a slow typist but I've never found it to be an impediment 22:28:22 there are only a few geniuses in the world for whom slow fingers would be a bottleneck 22:28:41 *Xach* finds slow typing to be a serious bottleneck, is no genius 22:28:55 -!- alkoma [~alkoma@c-67-160-207-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:56 *Xach* must practice more 22:29:13 fe[nl]ix: its not like that, but if you give a person a laptop with notepad, and ask him to type in a program in his preferred programming language that prints numbers from 1 to 5 22:29:29 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:29:37 fe[nl]ix: I use to type using only three/four fingers 22:29:44 maxm-: You ask people that in interviews? 22:29:47 then leave them for 5 minutes, come back to them sitting there with one line something like "do print five" 22:30:32 maxm-: ? 22:30:42 ejbs: yup.. my technical interviews are very practical.. "here is a simplest programming task, you can use google, you can call a friend, you can use any cheating you want, all I care is that a programming problem is solved" 22:30:57 maxm-: i seriously think something like do print five would work in rebol :) 22:31:25 problems being extremely easy, something like "write a program printing numbers from 1 to 5" followed by write a program that asks user for a number from 1 to 5, prints Monday through Friday, followed by more complicated ones 22:31:55 -!- ngz [~user@23.78.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:31:58 -!- Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-50-49.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:32:00 those with PHH in ee are asked "electrons have charge of what sign" 22:32:08 and asked to write down ohms law 22:32:14 s/phh/phd 22:33:10 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:25 none of the google puzzle stuff 22:34:01 maxm-: assuming your tale is true, slow typing is not the issue there, more like fraud 22:34:25 dba's get asked "you have a AIX server in a server room that you can't access, and a completly fresh windows laptop". You need to have AIX server running Oracle in 4 hours. How do you proceed 22:34:44 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:34:59 maxm-: "hang myself" 22:35:25 fe[nl]ix: unfortunately fraud is right, the buzzword filters through HR became so tought, so literally 100% of candidates lie on their resumes 22:35:33 so only way to filter out people is to actually have them do stuff 22:35:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:36:17 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:36:33 wanderingelf [4817e03b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.59] has joined #lisp 22:36:39 maxm-: a lot of the time the job offers make you think "okay, so everyone wants superstars that have 10 years professional experience in big corp... where the fuck is the opening to start?" 22:36:53 p_l: no I'm looking for "ask for root password" followed by one of "download cygwin/x" followed by ssh into the aix server, upload the content of the Oracle CD, run X server on the PC, and type ./install.sh 22:37:16 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:19 maxm-: ah, I assumed worse conditions (dilbert-esque) 22:37:37 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:37:45 maxm-: that's one reason I refuse to even write résumés, but that tends to confuse HR people :D 22:37:45 last year a friend of mine asked me what sql means, he was a management graduate, i asked why he wondered, he said he will write he knows SQL very well in his resume but is scared they'll ask the meaning of sql. 22:37:54 ... 22:38:00 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:38:50 kenanb: lol 22:39:22 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:39:40 *p_l* right now is writing a new CV 22:39:49 strict query language ? standard query language ? 22:40:11 One version (uber detailed with everything) goes to Google, a different version goes everywhere else 22:40:16 homie`: do you pay for each google searches you perform? 22:40:41 homie's closure on cmucl keeps crashing 22:40:55 i didn't search it 22:41:06 kenanb: sql = so quite lazy 22:41:08 sttructured man 22:41:12 i loaded quicklisp from you again from your site 22:41:33 ah structured it was ok 22:41:33 homie`: source query language 22:41:44 ups 22:42:26 my closure ? 22:42:33 err whaaaaat ? 22:43:48 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:45:44 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:46:49 -!- coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:46:54 http://pastie.org/3278822 my .sbclrc 22:47:07 coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:08 -!- coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:47:08 coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 22:47:56 -!- LiamH [~healy@173-165-155-170-charleston.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:48:13 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-50-49.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:34 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:48:51 http://pastie.org/3278835, my .sbclrc.maxima 22:48:58 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:48:59 another friend of mine has absolutely no idea what rdf is but he criticized the semantic web hype using my words in a very popular digital magazine in my country. 22:49:30 vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtechnology.com] has joined #lisp 22:49:31 i guess pretending to know everything simply works 22:49:36 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@host83.190-31-137.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:50:08 and my .cmucl-init.lisp http://pastie.org/3278838 22:50:40 kenanb: oh, here a lot of people built their wealth using such trick :) 22:50:56 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-102-3.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:11 i came across tfebs comment on using (in-package :cl-user) in a defun is a no go, is that true ? 22:54:31 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 22:55:17 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:56:06 Posterdati: Many of them are called genii 22:56:10 e.g. Edison 22:56:21 Mr. Brute-Force-and-Patent 22:56:39 Cosman246: I heard that one of them was Newton 22:56:59 I have a bit more respect for Newton 22:57:07 Cosman246: he particularly hate Hooke 22:57:16 Well, yes 22:57:25 If he had the power, he'd do away with them 22:57:32 Hooke, Leibniz, and Sinker! 22:57:45 and my aliases http://pastie.org/3278881 22:58:27 I've aliased nano and vi to Emacs, in case someone needs to use my laptop 22:58:39 lol 22:59:10 i've changed editing-mode in my inputrc to emacs 22:59:36 rme [~rme@50.43.152.6] has joined #lisp 22:59:56 Cosman246: Hooke found a more interesting law :) 23:00:25 Cosman246: every construction in the world is based on it :) 23:00:37 Wow 23:00:43 I must look it up 23:01:06 Cosman246: sic tensio ut vis 23:01:57 removed everything vim,viper related from my .emacs file 23:03:06 and i chaned code locally in mcclim, climacs, and beirc.... 23:03:08 -!- chawks [~chawls@85.64.36.18.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [] 23:03:22 -!- n1tn4tsn0k|2 [~moo@188.19.235.171] has quit [Quit: Òîïèíàìáóð?] 23:03:46 -!- wanderingelf [4817e03b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:03:49 to get the looks like i want, but there are still things i wonder about, like the cursor gets green itself, but not the regions i want to mark 23:04:03 when i'm in climacs 23:04:46 wbooze: climacs is torture 23:04:54 so i wonder about if the methods defined there fail, or if there's some misconception about the various layer like views, records, ....etc.. 23:05:18 well, yes to some point yes, it's a little torture 23:05:31 to ALL points 23:06:02 lol 23:06:37 TDT [~user@bouncer.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 23:08:08 Hey all, opinion please. I have one, and am building another, application using huchentoot, and using apache passthroughs to serve off pages off huchentoot. For automagically starting these kinds of servers, does anyone use something in /etc/rc.d/ or /etc/init.d/, or is there another solution people use for easy spawning of these servers, either on demand or on bootup? 23:11:44 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 23:14:38 It's also worth asking, is it better to serve static content (css/imgs/etc) through hunchentoot, or better through apache? Somehow I recall it's more efficient to serve it up through apache. 23:15:14 TDT: apache, or better yet, some fast server :) 23:16:20 TDT: I use nginx to serve static file content 23:16:31 TDT: i start up from rc.local with screen 23:16:39 su xach -c 'screen -d -m -S lisp.xach.com -c /opt/lisp.xach.com/etc/screenrc' 23:16:42 e.g. 23:17:36 *nod* thanks. I may need to switch off apache eventually once I get my stuff off apache once I move everything to lisp...I have 4 web sites on the server, moving 1 to lisp, another one is in lisp, 2 are in php. Maybe nginx can do php? I don't know..I can look into that, something lighter weight would be nice 23:17:37 alois_janicek [~quassel@188.80.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:18:19 and, interesting Xach, so is /opt/lisp../etc/screenrc a bash script to launch your web site? 23:18:30 TDT: nginx can do PHP through FCGI 23:19:02 TDT: no. 23:19:08 TDT: it is a screen init file 23:20:17 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 23:20:33 -!- alois_janicek [~quassel@188.80.broadband5.iol.cz] has left #lisp 23:20:34 -!- BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:20:58 Xach: Hmm, k k - I'll read up more on that. and p_l, that's nice to know - I'll definitely switch over then. The server isn't in the .. best shape at the moment. e.g. running both mysql, and postgresql for stupid reasons. Need to dedicate a little time and fix all this. 23:22:48 BixSqrl [~Bix@c-50-131-212-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:58 alois_janicek [~quassel@188.80.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:26:06 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: yes] 23:27:02 i have the suspicion that around methods in views or records or presentations simply don't work the way they should in clim.... 23:28:04 -!- faust45 [~faust45@94-248-107-155.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:28:40 the class for a poin mark is defined as well as a cursor-mark, the methods are there, no gf's (that means they are generated or so) and then changing something in the point mark class has an effect but in cursor-mark class has no effect.... 23:29:03 or something is amiss in drei-area or so.... 23:29:13 application-logic wise 23:30:17 and i don't get why a highlight should draw boxes around chars really, rather than highlight those..... 23:30:28 solussd [~solussd@user-0cdvten.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:32 subclassing semantics is flawed ? .....meh i don't get it..... 23:31:44 Cosman246: see D'Alembert law 23:31:50 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:38:17 galdor: you around? 23:39:21 -!- alois_janicek [~quassel@188.80.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:41:34 msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has joined #lisp 23:42:05 Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has joined #lisp 23:56:13 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-74-19.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:57:38 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:2420:ea0:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:05 Xach: Hey, for your web site, do you have any testing built into anything? as in full stack testing, or unit tests of anything?