00:00:07 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:01:30 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 00:02:16 did ever anyone in here replaced a java / ruby / perl / python based project with something written in lisp in a fraction of the development time? 00:03:25 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:10:12 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-02.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 00:11:46 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.21.223] has joined #lisp 00:12:06 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.21.223] has quit [Client Quit] 00:13:26 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.135.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:14:09 hi 00:14:26 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:15:04 -!- Shugen [~quassel@ycl38-1-82-225-51-195.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:15:07 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.21.223] has joined #lisp 00:15:11 fantazo: I replaced a C program with a fraction of the cost 00:15:28 *Xach* saved $3000/year in licensing fees 00:15:29 Xach, lol ;-) 00:15:41 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 00:15:57 which was it? I mean $3000 isn't nothing 00:16:09 It is nothing in a vertical market 00:16:20 true 00:16:24 *Xach* also recently replaced a $13,000/year program with a perl program 00:16:39 cute 00:17:05 fantazo: it is a program that decodes and dumps telecom Billing Data Tape files 00:17:09 the lisp program, that is 00:17:34 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:17:46 The specification of the format cost $750, after that it was a simple matter of transcribing the spec into Lisp... 00:18:15 so the program was now written in lisp and not perl? 00:18:43 fantazo: written in lisp and not C 00:18:46 or was the lisp thing the 3000 a year program 00:18:50 the C program's source was not available 00:18:50 ah ok 00:19:20 and you could use that? interesting. which lisp did you choose? clisp? 00:19:44 -!- krake [~krake@p508595CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 00:20:29 or on which OS did you need to decode that billing data? 00:21:29 timack [~timack@hlfx62-1-118.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 00:22:18 I used SBCL on Linux. 00:25:02 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-189262.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26:03 -!- xan_ [~xan@191.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:28:36 sshirokov: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127352 00:28:53 sshirokov: added some of your suggestions 00:29:05 *sshirokov* looks 00:29:13 I've tried a future like construct to get the lazy eval 00:29:19 not sure it really adds much 00:29:42 only thing I really like about it is passing the future to sendmsg 00:29:57 for forwarding 00:30:25 and I probably could provide that some other way anyway 00:30:35 Did you decide against a direct string helper for readmsg? 00:30:48 sshirokov: should be visible ther 00:30:56 In the server i think 00:30:59 Ah 00:30:59 Yes 00:31:36 you obviously can ask for an octete 00:31:47 and it would trivial to add your own dispatches 00:32:17 that's where i see some of the power of CLOS coming in 00:32:44 I ended up with very similar helpers wrapped over lisp-zmq in my work after our conversation as well 00:32:49 the extensibility to allow user class dispatch while maintaining the common interface 00:34:18 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.155.171] has joined #lisp 00:35:05 I see what you did there. I thought you going to tuck the future under the covers of a multipart message 00:35:25 But I guess that's just specialcasing the same thing 00:35:54 felt the multipart wasn't adding anything and it was hard to make consistent 00:36:35 the future is an ok abstraction, but in someways it's just a little bit of sugar 00:37:17 i also had it as a product of a higher order func, as on possible solution 00:37:33 so (make-message-future, instead of the with macro 00:37:57 but you'd have to let bind it anyway 00:38:26 the macro expands to a flet, so removing the need for funcall 00:38:32 It's good to have sane companions to with-*. I hate finding myself stuck without them :| 00:38:57 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:39:36 though for forwarding the HOF was very neat 00:40:05 (sendmsg skt-1 (make-message-future skt-2)) 00:40:37 That's what I had in mind originally, or something of that shape 00:40:47 that's where I went first 00:40:58 still a little undecided 00:41:51 at least the multimessage is gone, I really wasn't happy with it 00:42:41 I'm going to start build stuff with it and writing some documentation 00:42:52 then I'll make it public 00:43:26 Godspeed 00:43:30 want to but it through it's paces first, to iron out the bugs that are likely lurking and smooth out any API issues 00:43:38 but/put 00:46:26 there was a couple of micro optimizations i identified though there could be issues, especially on 32bit 00:46:52 SBCL shows a few notes where operations are being carried out on integers 00:47:05 Are you profiling or is it complaining? 00:47:18 just complaining 00:47:38 I'll look at profiling this 00:48:09 I think on 64bit one could safely use fixnum 00:48:29 if a message had a size larger than fixnum it would likely blow up you system, hehe 00:49:03 though if you are running on some big iron maybe not 00:49:39 I don't think that single-message size overflow is a reasonable consideration :P 00:50:28 it's more likely on 32 bit though 00:50:46 SBCL 32bit fixnum is 2^30 00:50:59 I guess, in theory.. 00:51:19 that's still a big message for sure 00:51:36 profiling will show if it is worth considering 00:51:43 I'll look into that tomorrow 00:54:02 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 00:54:32 -!- jackhammer2022 [~textual@c-24-34-124-94.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:54:46 sshirokov: so does the API look more reasonable now? 00:56:53 I like it. It was reasonable before, but I like the helpers. One thing, can you differentiate between the type of IO pending on a socket, or is (has-events-p ..) a bool? 00:56:59 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@85-127-93-0.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:30 -!- maxm--- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:57:39 the future actually returns (values msg more-flag) 00:57:50 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:54 pnq [~nick@ACA4151E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 00:58:06 and then (values nil nil) once its finished 00:59:04 I mean within poll, if you do something like (io-sock :pollin :pollout) can you figure out if you should read or write by calling (has-events-p io-sock) or do you have to resort to orring a sockopt? 00:59:21 oh yeah sorry 01:00:03 its actually (values :pollin) 01:00:13 dnolen [~user@ppp-70-249-145-33.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:16 or any combination of the events 01:00:34 I was consider adding a case like construct for that 01:01:47 so for you example if it had only input it would be (values :pollin), if both (values :pollin :pollout) 01:01:58 reasonable? 01:02:06 Very 01:02:22 cool 01:02:27 I must hit the sack now 01:02:29 -!- zophy [~zophy@host-5-150-220-24.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:02:30 Because you can do (m-v-b (i o e) (has-events-p ..) .. ) 01:02:37 And that's about as clear as that can get 01:02:50 thanks for all your input much appreciated 01:02:59 *sshirokov* nods 01:03:07 sshirokov: that wont actually work though 01:03:15 oh actually it might 01:03:18 It will 01:03:27 Well 01:03:27 No 01:03:33 It'll be annoying unless all three come out 01:03:35 every time 01:03:51 (values :pollin) vs (values :pollout) 01:04:07 I think it's best as either a list or a constant-width return 01:04:55 it will actually be (values :pollin nil :pollerr) 01:05:03 for that particular event case 01:05:14 and all other combinations besides 01:05:45 so it looks ok 01:06:20 Ah, cool :D 01:06:36 ok must sleep 01:06:39 g'nite 01:06:43 later sshirokov 01:06:56 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-148-138-15.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:09:51 keltvek [~keltvek@89-212-113-105.static.t-2.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:57 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-44-193.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:16:00 jackhammer2022 [~textual@c-24-34-124-94.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:16 RomyRomy [~stickycak@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:23:48 ASau` [~user@95-26-139-26.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 01:23:52 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 01:27:22 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 01:27:45 -!- ASau [~user@95-24-54-209.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:27:55 -!- faust45 [~faust45@92-49-245-234.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Quit: faust45] 01:28:36 tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:00 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:30:37 -!- rmathews [~roshan@59.92.76.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:31:22 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:34:07 ghoti- [4c1b035d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.27.3.93] has joined #lisp 01:35:49 -!- sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 01:36:03 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:47 -!- sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:37:25 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:37:40 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:24 -!- dnolen [~user@ppp-70-249-145-33.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:42:43 -!- rosario [~user@fsf/member/rosario] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 01:43:44 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 01:46:36 -!- timack [~timack@hlfx62-1-118.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:47:17 -!- sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 01:48:01 -!- senj [~senj@S01060026f323bcdf.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 01:49:12 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:17 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-021.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:51:27 -!- Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-021.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:51:36 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:51:47 -!- Joreji___ [~thomas@u-0-021.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:52:08 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-021.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:54:58 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 01:55:15 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:56:30 rmathews [~roshan@59.92.76.252] has joined #lisp 01:57:30 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.155.171] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:57:50 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.155.171] has joined #lisp 01:59:10 insulina [~insulina@bl5-146-246.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 02:01:21 hello a theorical question how to do a nand operater in lambda calculos 02:01:52 WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-220-121-27.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:22 Quick question about some syntactic sugar. What does #(#(1 2 3 4... Create? 02:04:49 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:08:17 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:08:27 RomyRomy_ [~stickycak@static-129-44-58-217.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:34 -!- RomyRomy_ [~stickycak@static-129-44-58-217.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:11:06 sunmix [~user@49.49.199.240] has joined #lisp 02:12:28 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:12:35 sysop_fb [~fb@108-66-160-34.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:30  WarWeasle a vector whose first element is another vector 02:15:51 -!- insulina [~insulina@bl5-146-246.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 02:16:36 antifuchs: Ok, then I'm not crazy. I'm getting a strange error with cl-opengl where #(#(1 2 3 4 ... works but (vector (vector '(1 2 3 4 ... does not. 02:17:42 that would be a vector of a vector of a list 02:17:56 what Ralith says (: 02:18:10 Ralith: Ahhh. How would I convert it proper? 02:18:36 (vector (vector 1 2 3)) 02:20:23 antifuchs & Ralith: Thank you so much. You complete solved it! 02:21:00 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-169-14-16.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:21:10 glad to help (: 02:25:24 bchi [~bji@cpe-098-024-086-252.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:28:00 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:29:44 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:33 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:31:36 -!- borodon [~Borodon@ip68-106-150-168.cl.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:31:39 fvw [~user@14.215.207.112] has joined #lisp 02:32:50 -!- fvw [~user@14.215.207.112] has quit [Client Quit] 02:33:14 fvw [~user@14.215.207.112] has joined #lisp 02:38:05 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483AC68.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:38:15 Yuuhi [benni@p5483AC68.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:13 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:41:10 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:13 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483D771.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:44 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483AC68.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:46:05 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 02:46:49 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:47:46 Can I get feedback on an idea? 02:48:53 -!- sysop_fb [~fb@108-66-160-34.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:55:27 ace4016 [~ace4016@rrcs-70-63-206-143.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:57:13 sysop_fb [~fb@108-66-160-34.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:53 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:58:44 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.62.105.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:59:13 L3Gi0n4riUs [~jonatas@187.65.190.132] has joined #lisp 02:59:39 -!- L3Gi0n4riUs [~jonatas@187.65.190.132] has left #lisp 02:59:56 L3Gi0n4riUs [~jonatas@187.65.190.132] has joined #lisp 03:00:19 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:42 -!- L3Gi0n4riUs [~jonatas@187.65.190.132] has left #lisp 03:01:24 L3Gi0n4riUs [~jonatas@187.65.190.132] has joined #lisp 03:03:47 -!- L3Gi0n4riUs [~jonatas@187.65.190.132] has left #lisp 03:05:56 L3Gi0n4riUs [~jonatas@187.65.190.132] has joined #lisp 03:08:24 -!- L3Gi0n4riUs [~jonatas@187.65.190.132] has quit [Client Quit] 03:09:21 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@rrcs-70-63-206-143.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: brb] 03:15:47 -!- bchi [~bji@cpe-098-024-086-252.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 03:18:21 leo2007 [~leo@124.72.163.37] has joined #lisp 03:23:28 WarWeasle : not possible, if you keep quiet about it .. 03:23:44 karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 03:24:41 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 03:26:46 -!- 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[~leo@124.72.163.37] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:41:33 nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-194-110.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:42:15 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-194-110.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:43:29 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:46:13 kenanb: It's not obvious to python programmers. 05:46:29 kenanb: People have a great capacity for self-deception. 05:46:47 But it isn't really 'longer' so much as 'less appropriate'. 05:48:49 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:50:57 -!- nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-194-110.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:50:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-255.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:51:26 -!- fvw [~user@14.215.207.112] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 05:51:27 nitro_idiot 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host closed the connection] 08:48:48 -!- cyb3r3li0 [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:48:59 cyb3r3li0 [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:14 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@N088197.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:49:34 deepfire: a question about lisp-1's pros and cons 08:49:35 -!- cyb3r3li0 [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:49:49 cyb3r3li0 [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:56 -!- cyb3r3li0 [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:52:29 -!- scrimohsin [~csimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: adieu.] 08:53:31 fvw [~user@113.69.20.189] has joined #lisp 08:53:41 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@N088197.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:56:42 -!- easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has quit [Quit: Outta here?] 09:00:37 I've had a very intense year of programming in Python. 09:00:53 Lisp-1-ness does get in the way, a lot. 09:01:06 lol 09:01:32 but it's sooo tail-call optimized ?! 09:01:39 In fact I did so much python code, that I'm almost more comfortable with python than with lisp at this moment. 09:01:59 scrimohsin [~csimon@static-50-43-23-71.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:59 -!- scrimohsin [~csimon@static-50-43-23-71.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 09:01:59 scrimohsin [~csimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 09:02:23 Note that I make a distinction between preference and comfortability here. 09:03:02 ..and so, despite that deep immersion the lisp1-ness still does get in the way. 09:04:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:05:29 On an unrelated note, I came to appreciate the lack of parentheses in Python -- but only on the perceptual level. I have not lost my mind and I'm still fully aware of the technical reasons. 09:06:09 I think we come to sweep the perceptual costs under the rug. 09:06:15 ..but we still pay them. 09:06:58 And these thoughts inevitably lead me to Dave Moon's PLOT. 09:07:38 PLOT essentiall is a complete metaprogrammable, homoiconic Lisp, but without parentheses. 09:07:45 PLOT essentially is a complete metaprogrammable, homoiconic Lisp, but without parentheses. 09:21:50 still uses parens for function calls 09:22:08 and adds commas as separators :( 09:23:16 daimrod [~daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 09:23:34 What is the rational argument against them? 09:24:07 cyb3r3li0g [~cyb3r3li0@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:15 As it stands, syntax is syntax. Before PLOT you had to choose syntax to make your language homoiconic. 09:24:43 commas make it annoying to add/remove the last item in a list 09:24:53 and they are completely unnecessary 09:24:59 What? How are commas related to this at all? 09:25:08 you asked 09:25:10 he answered 09:25:23 You seem to be confused about the distinction between syntax and semantics. 09:25:28 I haven't gotten to its homoiconicity, but I'm curious how commas are handled there 09:25:42 Just discovered WITH-SLOTS generates really slow code in SBCL. Spent a couple of hours taking it out of the performance critical pieces of code. Sped up the program X2. 09:28:43 -!- cyb3r3li0g [~cyb3r3li0@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has left #lisp 09:28:55 cyb3r3li0g [~cyb3r3li0@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:02 -!- cyb3r3li0g [~cyb3r3li0@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:35:10 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:36:08 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has joined #lisp 09:36:10 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 09:38:15 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:38:58 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has joined #lisp 09:39:20 -!- waveman [~tim@124-168-114-219.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:39:39 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:40:07 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has joined #lisp 09:40:55 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:41:20 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has joined #lisp 09:42:14 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:42:17 cyb3r3li0 [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:47 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:43:16 -!- cyb3r3li0 [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:43:40 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has joined #lisp 09:43:45 cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:47 -!- cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:44:13 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:44:43 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has joined #lisp 09:44:49 -!- niko is now known as evilniko 09:46:11 gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 09:47:44 -!- drwho [~drwho@56-34-237-24.gci.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:48:04 drwho [~drwho@56-34-237-24.gci.net] has joined #lisp 09:48:43 cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:14 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 09:50:56 -!- _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:52:29 -!- |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:54:29 ZabaQ [~Zaba@85-132-136-40-static.vivo.cz] has joined #lisp 10:00:29 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:00:51 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:01:48 -!- teggi_ is now known as teggi 10:01:56 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128225085.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 10:02:03 rudi [~rudi@cm-84.208.89.228.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 10:03:59 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:33 francogrex [~user@109.130.46.254] has joined #lisp 10:08:16 osa1 [~sinan@95.8.102.79] has joined #lisp 10:12:50 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:17:37 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:19:29 how can I convert bytes encoded as utf-8 to CL strings? 10:21:22 osa1, use babel package. 10:22:04 babel:octets-to-string 10:22:35 Or SBCL's sb-ext:octets-to-string. 10:23:15 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:23:16 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:26:08 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has joined #lisp 10:26:35 dtw: how can I convert list of integers to vector of unsgined bytes? integers is actually bytes read from a stream 10:26:36 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:26:56 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has joined #lisp 10:27:38 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:27:57 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:28:00 make-array :initial-contents? 10:29:53 osa1: might want to just read the stream into a preallocated vector in the first place 10:29:59 maxm- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 10:30:21 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has joined #lisp 10:30:46 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 10:31:47 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-140-19.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:54 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:31:55 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:32:02 sunmix` [~user@49.49.199.240] has joined #lisp 10:32:19 Ralith: how can I do that? is there function to read directly to a vector? 10:32:42 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:55 mapcar ? 10:34:01 osa1: read-sequence 10:34:02 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-153-96.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:34:11 faust45 [~faust45@92-49-245-234.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 10:34:35 -!- sunmix [~user@49.49.199.240] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:35:16 -!- sunmix` [~user@49.49.199.240] has quit [Client Quit] 10:37:32 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:20 how can I create vector of unsigned-bytes? (make-array :element-type 'byte) didn't work 10:38:39 ignas [~ignas@ip-195-14-175-155.bnk.lt] has joined #lisp 10:38:43 I also tried 'unsigned-byte as :element-type 10:38:51 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) 10:39:02 lnostdal [~lnostdal@82.214.243.172] has joined #lisp 10:39:12 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@82.214.243.172] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:39:44 lnostdal [~lnostdal@82.214.243.172] has joined #lisp 10:41:34 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@186.136.162.134] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 10:43:12 Shugen [~quassel@82.225.51.195] has joined #lisp 10:44:17 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has joined #lisp 10:46:02 n1tn4tsn0k [~moo@178.47.222.140] has joined #lisp 10:46:03 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:46:40 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has joined #lisp 10:46:48 osa1: hi! 10:47:52 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:49:28 |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:49:38 _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:52:05 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.183] has joined #lisp 10:54:08 -!- _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:54:23 -!- faust45 [~faust45@92-49-245-234.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Quit: faust45] 10:54:50 -!- |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:56:35 kaidw [~kaidw@113.57.222.48] has joined #lisp 10:58:29 -!- rudi [~rudi@cm-84.208.89.228.getinternet.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:59:09 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-115-60-9.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:06:30 sunmix [~user@49.49.199.240] has joined #lisp 11:09:58 -!- rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-153-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 11:14:42 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@82.214.243.172] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:15:02 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:15:47 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.206.187] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:17:00 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082B0FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:08 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:21 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:19:27 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B326901.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:21:47 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: going to moon brb. 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reset by peer] 12:33:38 Guthur [~user@host86-148-138-15.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:33:42 -!- ignas [~ignas@ip-195-14-175-155.bnk.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:35:00 Bubitrek [~ihavenoma@83.221.161.125] has joined #lisp 12:35:04 -!- Bubitrek [~ihavenoma@83.221.161.125] has left #lisp 12:35:09 osa1 [~sinan@88.244.140.227] has joined #lisp 12:35:18 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 12:35:19 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-399615.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:36:04 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:38:15 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.155.171] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:39:38 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 12:39:55 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-386387.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 12:40:41 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:40:49 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.155.171] has joined #lisp 12:49:07 SBCL gives me a 'doing signed word to integer coercion (cost 20) to INDEX' on a loop with a :for index :from 0 12:49:22 how do I remove this not 12:51:23 phao [phao@177.77.133.32] has joined #lisp 12:53:04 mufflle, muffle 12:53:43 wbooze: is there no way to actually tell it to only use integers or better still fixnums 12:54:16 declare the index fixnum ? 12:54:16 http://paste.lisp.org/display/127353 12:54:56 (whoa, typo in my comment...) 12:55:26 Phoodus: indeed and now on display for all, hehe 12:55:30 cheers though 12:55:56 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:01:00 _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:01:03 -!- mhi^ [~mhi@home.zedat.fu-berlin.de] has left #lisp 13:01:08 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 13:02:14 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA4151E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:02:40 -!- fvw [~user@113.69.20.189] has left #lisp 13:05:21 I found a way to get rid of it 13:06:13 the loop is going through a sequence, which will have a length less than most-positive-fixum 13:06:50 so if I do :for index :from 0 :below most-positive-fixnum the compiler can be sure that it wont break the boundaries of fixnum 13:07:04 and the compiler note is gone 13:07:14 if you think about it, unless the system grabs way too many tag bits, all sequences will have a fixnum length 13:07:34 (well, disregarding infinite recursive loop crap) 13:08:10 given that a register size is generally comparable to the maximum address space 13:10:04 Phoodus: but on SBCL a fixnum of 32bit systems is only 30bits 13:10:05 pnq [~nick@ACA21BFD.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:13 is that not less than the address mem space 13:10:30 addressable* 13:10:40 right, and how much space does each element take? 13:10:53 on byte, it's an octet array 13:10:55 one* 13:10:58 unless you're dealing with optimized byte arrays, you're going to... okay 13:11:13 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128225085.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:11:25 but it's unlikely it will be more than 30^2 in size 13:11:47 on 64-bit systems, even 61-bit lengths are well beyond feasible ram sizes 13:12:13 yeah 64bit was always acceptable 13:12:46 I am actually considering adding a *features* switch to this system so that the user can specify use-integer-length-arrays 13:12:48 or something 13:12:51 just incase 13:13:06 fvw [~user@113.69.20.189] has joined #lisp 13:13:42 though its a quick code change to remove for anyone 13:14:35 -!- fvw [~user@113.69.20.189] has left #lisp 13:15:07 and it's a ~9% optimization 13:15:16 which is nice 13:15:18 -!- lusory [~bart@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:17:06 lusory [~bart@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:17:35 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:17:38 :o Ash! 13:18:00 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has left #lisp 13:23:02 TimoT [~ttossava@cs168133.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:24:33 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:27:12 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:12 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:27:13 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 13:27:15 karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:28:34 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:29:58 -!- karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:32:59 osa1__ [~sinan@78.173.127.41] has joined #lisp 13:33:08 -!- osa1 [~sinan@88.244.140.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:34:27 Hey, that book "Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming - Case Studies in Common Lisp" gives an intro do common lisp. Is that intro enough to go through the book (I am a scheme programmer already, but never used common lisp)? 13:35:02 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:36:16 phao: yeah, you'll be fine. 13:36:27 thx 13:36:50 the PAIP code is exceptionally simple and clear anyway 13:37:32 osa1_ [~sinan@88.241.170.73] has joined #lisp 13:38:16 that should help 13:38:25 -!- osa1__ [~sinan@78.173.127.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:38:41 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:38:54 are signals (and errors) passed between threads ? for example if i have code: (handler-bind (...) (call-in-new-thread 'myfun)), and myfun in another thread signals an error can i handle it's error and invoke restart in this thread? 13:40:03 anonus: threads are not included in the standard, meaning it depends on yoru implementation. However, most implementations agree on "No" 13:40:24 god damn >.< 13:40:58 *anonus* trying make "let it crash" strategy on top of lparallel 13:41:41 -!- scrimohsin [~csimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: adieu.] 13:41:42 and who get an error from failed function ? 13:41:56 osa1 [~sinan@88.241.170.73] has joined #lisp 13:42:58 -!- osa1_ [~sinan@88.241.170.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:43:18 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-052-200.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:19 is it wiil be thread's manager (or similar entity)? 13:46:25 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:46 -!- phao [phao@177.77.133.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:48:49 -!- osa1 [~sinan@88.241.170.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:48:56 (sup pals) 13:50:09 anonus: you could have (call-in-new-thread (let-it-crash-closure 'foo)) 13:50:31 scrimohsin [~csimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 13:51:13 Xach: and how let-it-crash-closure should pass an error to the parent thread ? 13:51:41 *Xach* scratches head 13:51:58 I am not rightly sure. 13:52:22 using common methods such message passing or there is more elegant way to do that ? 13:53:19 *Xach* does not use threads much, does not know 13:53:45 sad 13:54:06 yeah, we're doomed. 13:54:23 i'm too not plan using low-level threads much 13:54:33 maybe interrupt-thread 13:54:37 only as worker threads in lparallel 13:54:40 and pass the the main thread 13:54:54 all from bordeaux threads 13:55:12 that's all guess work, from looking at what is available in bt 13:55:15 hmm 13:55:27 Hrm. 13:55:28 interrupt-thread is never the answer. 13:55:33 problem that i can run future from another future 13:55:43 http://lparallel.com/handling/ ? 13:56:11 Odin-: :* 13:56:15 i'm retard 13:56:46 i must first read the docs 13:57:23 Parallel processing is a seriously tricky subject, unfortunately. 13:57:29 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-233-208.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 13:58:34 Odin-: i think it's because of von Neumann 13:58:58 Seems transaction memory and CSP are the most reasonable ways to approach it ... but they do it basically by reducing it to independent processes... 13:58:58 -!- _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:01:06 this embodiment of evil presented us a sequential architecture and made impossible the creation of user-friendly parallel computation framework 14:01:11 frameworks 14:01:37 because poison of sequential computing is already of our minds 14:01:45 s/of/in/ 14:02:02 *Guthur* likes message passing 14:02:16 ...to help make some of the problems disappear 14:02:36 message passing is great but it's soooo slow sometimes 14:03:23 anonus: Uh. Lambda calculus and Turing machines also have serious problems with parallel processing. 14:03:46 It's not the von Neumann architecture that's the problem. 14:04:00 Odin-: turing machine - yes, lambda calculus - no 14:04:16 Odin-: lambda calculus does not specify evaluation order. In practice, we've found the issue to be that it exposes too much parallelism. 14:04:19 lambda calculus is pure, so every function can be computed in parallel 14:04:31 sunmix [~user@49.49.199.240] has joined #lisp 14:05:25 Okay, fine, _theoretically_ you can beta-reduce everything in parallel. That requires an absolute lack of side-effects, which is simply not going to work in practice. 14:05:27 in fact lambda calculus is a data-driven model of computation 14:05:47 you can simply convert bunch of pure functions to data-flow graph 14:06:35 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-148-138-15.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:13 As it happens, a von Neumann architecture also has no trouble with massively parallel calculations when no side-effects or interdependencies are involved. 14:07:19 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:07:55 Odin-: nope, for example in electronics you can implement an logical part of scheme as data-flow chart and attach it's inputs and outputs to (for example) an sequential memory 14:09:16 What does the "nope" refer to? 14:09:34 nope refers to post about beta-reducing 14:10:04 in fact it has a great performance reduction because of RAM 14:10:22 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:10:29 message passing is COPYING 14:12:17 Any useful program needs side effects at some point. The moment those are introduced, you have dependencies on execution order. This is not avoidable. 14:12:25 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-134.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:53 you can separate side effects from logic parts as it done in electronics 14:13:16 If nothing else, you need side effects to obtain your input and return your output; things which are in fact outside the remit of lambda calculus and that's what allows it to be theoretically doable completely in parallel. 14:13:25 anonus: shared memory is MESSAGE PASSING. 14:13:42 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:14:29 Who cares? There's a lot of message passing without any explicit copying, and sometimes it's better for performance to perform explicit copying in shared memory. 14:14:57 anonus: I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make. "If we eliminate dependencies between processes, parallel processing is easy" is not very novel. 14:15:10 Just use whichever lets you express the application best; at some point the dust will have settled and we'll have a solid default choice. 14:15:11 asvil` [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 14:15:13 So it can't be that... 14:16:10 Odin-: i'm not saying that it's novel 14:17:02 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:17:21 i'm just saying that we don't have some useful tools that can be used to build effective parallel data-flow architecure on von Neumann architecture 14:17:55 it's just impossible 14:18:00 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-246-57.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:26 because of few processors and large array of shared memory 14:18:29 Do we have such tools for any other model of computation? 14:18:40 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128176011.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 14:19:00 Odin-: they run on von neuman machines ;) 14:19:13 Odin-: for sequential programming - definitely 14:20:21 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:20:48 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-140-19.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:21:22 if for example we would have large LUT array instead of RAM - we can implement real data-flow computation 14:22:02 pkhuong: Well, yes. Theoretically you should be able to implement a universal Turing machine on a large enough von Neumann machine, which means a von Neumann machine can compute anything computable by a Turing machine or lambda expressions. (Which have long since been proven to have equivalent expressive power.) So the complaints are about performance, not expressive ability. 14:22:06 and processor would not be needed 14:22:13 Unless I'm waaaaay off the mark. 14:22:57 JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 14:23:21 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 14:23:23 AFAIK LHC uses such arrays of CPLD to process data from sensors... 14:23:49 CPLD or FPGA, i'm not sure... 14:24:20 *hefner* wonders why anonus is tinkering with someone's parallel programming library when he should be reinventing computing 14:24:36 rudi_ [~rudi@cm-84.208.89.228.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 14:25:28 -!- rudi_ is now known as rudi 14:26:12 hefner: because no one wants to produce such computers, because of that conservative mammoths directs the market :( 14:26:54 x86 such an ugly arch, but there are no alternatives 14:28:43 Odin-: I mean that yes, we do have tools, or at least are working on it. Never mind the fact that they're really executed on networks of von neuman machines, same as we've had before ;) 14:28:57 x86 is awesome. 14:29:10 no way, it's full of hacks 14:29:23 like RISC kernel with CISC instuction interpreter 14:29:38 like lot compatibilites that no one needed 14:29:39 the risc people call it compression. 14:29:51 ngz [~user@23.78.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:12 it's hell for compilator's developers 14:30:37 you don't get to complain about both. You have to choose between complaining about the micro-op decoder and microcode engine or compatibility instructions, not both. 14:30:47 anonus: less so than the competitors. 14:31:26 pkhuong: In that case I'd say it's self-evidently capable of being built on a von Neumann architecture... 14:31:28 Current x86 are amazingly robust and tolerate a lot of missed micro-optimisations. 14:31:44 -!- cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:32:03 easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 14:32:05 emm, is micro-code decoder not the consequence of compatibility? 14:32:15 Odin-: that was also addressed at anonus, according to whom we can't have effective parallelism on such architectures ;) 14:32:17 -!- lusory [~bart@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:32:40 anonus: once we have the decoder, their only cost is instruction encoding space. 14:33:04 pkhuong: Ah. :p 14:33:09 lusory [~bart@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:33:32 it's costs the chip square and transistors count, and total complexity 14:34:18 anonus: it's a couple entries in a ROM. Nothing compared to a couple bytes of SRAM. 14:34:25 i think if throw away the instruction decoder processor will be a two to four times smaller (like an ARM) 14:34:35 anonus: nope, it's around 1-2% 14:35:31 anyway it makes processor more complex 14:36:13 here's what Intel cut when it needed smaller/lower-power chips (Atom): cache size, super-scalar execution, and out-of-order execution. 14:36:26 and it's because of intel wants more money, because of it x86 is more like good product, not good technical decision 14:37:11 ... and made useless piece of crap 14:37:29 who cares about 1-2%? What awesome things would that enable? It's not like we're running out of space on dies; we have so much, in fact, that we're just copying cores. 14:37:57 that another shitty decision 14:38:09 who cares about cores count if we have one bus? 14:38:11 ... which, in turn, is causing us to think so much about MP, which previously wasn't a concern except for specialty programming. 14:39:37 Precisely because it doesn't give us the ability to do any new sort of computations, only to do the same computations faster. Maybe. When we learn how to do it efficiently. If that's possible. :p 14:40:11 one thing can give us ability to do new sort of computations 14:40:15 it's called GPU 14:40:22 Uh. 14:40:26 No. 14:40:40 it's not the data-flow architecture 14:40:49 but it's already mass-parallel 14:40:56 so, no, you don't get to complain about both backward compatibility and the decoding engine. The latter makes backward-compatibility virtually free. And, really x86 is awesome, both executino-wise and as a compiler target. 14:41:36 Heck, it's arguably better-suited to SSA style than most others, with reg-reg XCHG. 14:41:36 x86-64 and ARM seem to be the only architectures anyone needs to care about anymore... 14:41:44 pkhuong: decoding egnine _and_ compatibility is the same, and it's made a instruction set unbelivebly bloated 14:42:12 anonus: indeed, so you can't complain about both. 14:42:18 Odin-: MIPS also, it's user in networking 14:42:23 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:29 And you can just ignore the bits you don't want to use. That's what we do in SBCL. 14:42:31 anonus: Do you actually understand what the Church-Turing thesis means? 14:42:35 pkhuong: yes, because it is the same thing 14:44:00 Odin-: yes, but why's you asking ? 14:44:58 anonus: so why did you list both as issues with x86? 14:45:52 anonus: Because saying GPUs enable "new sort of computations" rather implies you don't. 14:46:43 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:57 Heck, even quantum computing doesn't do that. 14:47:07 Odin-: hmm, on GPU you can use new models of computations, you should programm not as in classical one-process environment 14:47:43 Odin-: unless P = NP, it does, arguably. 14:47:44 anonus: I wasn't talking about programming at any point in this conversation. 14:48:03 ok, i think we have out-of-sync meanings of what is "new sort of computations" 14:50:12 if you told about computation in therms of computation theory, so yes, i agree - GPU doesn't give us new sort of computations 14:50:25 splittist [~splittist@74-104.198-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 14:51:42 pkhuong: Not in terms of computational models ... it's possible to emulate a quantum computer, it's just pointlessly inefficient. 14:51:45 new is a particularly useless qualifier. 14:53:00 I'll grant you that. 14:53:18 Odin-: if the overhead is that significant, it's meaningful to consider it as a different model. 14:55:03 Sure. 14:55:40 -!- easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has quit [Quit: Outta here?] 14:55:40 _Practically_ it'll be astounding, if indeed it's possible to build decent-size quantum computers. 14:56:39 Not sure where you consider quantum crypto to fall. 14:58:16 But the reason MP is gaining focus today is that it's no longer feasible to build ever-faster single cores, so we're building multiple cores instead. So MP is becoming a significant problem not because it can provide different results from what we already have, but because what we already have is sorta disappearing from underneath us... 14:59:38 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:00:25 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:00:30 pkhuong: The various breaking algorithms are theoretically implementable now, but inefficient; the possible replacement is not so much encryption as a method of generating random bits where you can prove for each individual bit whether it was intercepted. Workable OTP, finally. 15:00:34 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 15:00:41 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128176011.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:03:30 Odin-: If I understand my the other students on my floor right, it's a bit more interesting than just providing non-eavesdropped randomness. Still, try and emulate that, even with an impractical overhead, with classical computers. 15:04:39 pkhuong: Sure, but it's not a computation. 15:05:26 hook a computer on each end. What isn't a computation? 15:05:57 -!- asvil` [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:06:22 The numbers are not computationally generated. 15:06:52 The verification apparatus uses quantum properties to ensure confidentiality, not algorithms. 15:08:39 Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.214.207] has joined #lisp 15:10:16 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 15:10:55 nice goalposts ;) I really don't care; if the only way to describe something is that it's new or different, I won't pay attention. 15:10:57 -!- rudi [~rudi@cm-84.208.89.228.getinternet.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 15:11:08 rudi [~rudi@2001:470:28:5a5:1805:ef32:9ebe:3899] has joined #lisp 15:12:36 *hefner* is still trying to figure out what awesome thing to do with that 1-2% of the die. really leaning toward etching a portrait of super mario. 15:12:42 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:52 pkhuong: You could build a computational system that would enable entities _within_ that system to use similar methods, but that wouldn't have quite the same result. 15:14:55 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 15:15:22 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-386387.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:15:46 Also, you don't need quantum computers to take advantage of these methods. 8) 15:16:51 Odin-: I was reacting to the way you seemed to dismiss a lot of things as uninteresting because of there are impractical reductions to von neuman machines. So I brought up something for which a reduction would be physically-impossible. 15:17:34 -!- rudi [~rudi@2001:470:28:5a5:1805:ef32:9ebe:3899] has quit [Quit: Client exciting.] 15:19:04 rme [~rme@50.43.152.6] has joined #lisp 15:20:22 rudi_ [~rudi@2001:470:28:5a5:d5b4:18e6:2c55:27a6] has joined #lisp 15:20:34 hefner: hardware forwarding pointers ;) 15:20:48 pkhuong: Strictly, I'd rather go with Turing machines or lambda calculus. Those things are interesting in terms of the things they allow us to do in practice, but they do not enable us to do, by calculation, things that are in principle impossible to calculate today. Do take note of the 'in principle' bit. Of course quantum computing would make brute-force solution of all NP more or less straightforward, but it's alr 15:20:48 eady possible in principle to solve all NP problems. 15:20:58 A quantum computer would not be able to solve the halting problem. 15:22:17 And use of quantum properties for complete confidentiality does not require a quantum computer; in fact, some of the methods are already commercially available. 15:22:50 They just require tamper-proof hardware. 15:23:03 I wonder when they'll get around to solving that problem. 15:23:40 Complete confidentiality just means they'll start breaking your fingers sooner, unfortunately. 15:23:50 -!- rudi_ is now known as rudi 15:24:15 osa1 [~sinan@88.244.142.173] has joined #lisp 15:24:56 Odin-: re QC and NP, that's a quite common misconception, but it's not how we currently understand/expect things to be. 15:25:18 Zhivago: Yes, well, that's where the real world intrudes on theory... 15:25:32 there are things in P that aren't in BQP and vice-versa, and both are in NP. 15:26:13 Odin-: the difference is that I'm more interested in directly applicable results, I suppose. 15:26:34 If I'd started the conversation on a different note, I would've been, too. :p 15:26:38 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-052-200.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:28:01 Whitesquall [~notwhites@94.242.177.3] has joined #lisp 15:28:38 nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-154-106.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:30:46 decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has joined #lisp 15:30:48 Frozenlock [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:20 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-115-60-9.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:33:07 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 15:33:21 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 15:33:38 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:34:16 -!- rudi [~rudi@2001:470:28:5a5:d5b4:18e6:2c55:27a6] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 15:34:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:35:08 -!- Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:37:38 -!- Joreji___ [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:38:51 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-049-214.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:31 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:47:44 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-049-214.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:48:47 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 15:51:39 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:52:41 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:53:17 -!- karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:54:36 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:56:55 Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:57:17 Joreji___ [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:07:39 _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:28 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA21BFD.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:11:49 -!- _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:11:49 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:13:21 -!- sunmix [~user@49.49.199.240] has left #lisp 16:21:30 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-187838.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:23:31 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 16:23:41 lnostdal [~lnostdal@18.51.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:25:43 Guthur [~yaaic@212.183.128.17] has joined #lisp 16:26:26 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:07 anyone involved in organising ELS? I was wondering there is really a requirement to submit an ACM style paper for the lightening talks 16:28:35 seems a little overkill for a 5 min demo 16:29:09 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:29:41 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-28-50.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:32:05 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-134.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:33:38 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-134.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:51 JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 16:37:13 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.59.114] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:38:41 -!- Guthur [~yaaic@212.183.128.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:40:14 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@18.51.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:48:22 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:49:55 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:51:12 leo2007 [~leo@110.84.86.7] has joined #lisp 16:51:28 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-2-213.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 16:52:58 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:58 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.155.171] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:52:58 xyxu1 [~xyxu@222.68.155.171] has joined #lisp 16:53:24 -!- sellout is now known as Guest52170 16:53:31 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 16:55:35 X-Scale [email@89.180.172.116] has joined #lisp 16:55:58 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest6064 16:56:15 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:56:17 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-134.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:57:15 -!- xyxu1 [~xyxu@222.68.155.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:57:17 -!- Guest52170 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:58:30 RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:01:34 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 17:02:59 -!- kaidw [~kaidw@69.172.214.106] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 17:04:50 What would be the best way to switch between loading a quicklisp system and local-project system 17:06:00 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06:03 -!- Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:06:23 (push #P"/directory/of/your/local/system/" asdf:*central-registry*) (asdf-load :load-system) 17:06:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:06:58 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-134.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:24 lnostdal [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:50 pjb, you probably meant (asdf:load-system ...) 17:09:26 faust45 [~faust45@92-49-245-234.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 17:09:32 No, I have a definition for asdf-load. 17:10:04 in http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=public/rc&h=5b4337263e84fd4116a9dd5b0dab11f22207a423&hb=262a210afd605630c57b473d75544de8d0e7b532&f=common.lisp 17:12:14 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-134.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:12:21 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:12:32 -!- Joreji___ [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:13:06 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128238203.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 17:14:03 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-134.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:07 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-187838.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17:53 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 17:20:57 Kenjin: The easiest way is putting the local system's directory in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ and moving it if you don't want to use it any more. 17:23:01 -!- Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:23:10 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:23:19 Xach: I see. I thought there might be a way to switch between them without having to move stuff out of local-projects 17:24:03 Kenjin: edit asdf:*central-registry* 17:25:11 pjb: asdf:*central-registry* only contains my quicklisp path and "local-projects" dir is checked before the Quicklisp mechanism 17:25:31 (push #P"/directory/of/your/local/system/" asdf:*central-registry*) (asdf-load :load-system) 17:26:27 urandom__ [~user@p548A5A42.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:30 pjb: I don't need to push my system to asdf:*central-registry* because its in "/quicklisp/local-projects" which is checked automatically 17:26:47 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:13 easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 17:27:17 But since you thought there might be a way to switch between them without having to move stuff out of local-projects, I'm telling you what it is! 17:27:36 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-173-66-212-91.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 17:28:19 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:28:41 pjb: understood :) 17:30:43 -!- nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-154-106.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:31:02 dnolen [~user@ppp-70-242-120-99.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:17 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-154-106.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:32:05 pjb: I was trying to make use of "local-projects" dir. I suppose the best way is to have the system on another directory and push/pop it as needed to/from asdf:*central-registry 17:32:50 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:33:06 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.192.111] has joined #lisp 17:36:19 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-154-106.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:42:41 iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:36 -!- easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has quit [Quit: Outta here?] 17:59:59 Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:17 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:05:03 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-134.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:05:14 cl-user.net gives 500. 18:05:38 eulyix [~charles@2.28.98.228] has joined #lisp 18:06:45 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Lost 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RomyRomy is now known as RomyRomy-afk 19:40:23 freeenodeeeeee [~chatzilla@dslc-082-083-023-073.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:10 hi 19:41:28 -!- rmathews [~roshan@59.92.73.56] has quit [Quit: Bye..] 19:42:31 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:44:45 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:46:16 -!- freeenodeeeeee [~chatzilla@dslc-082-083-023-073.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 19:46:56 Posterdati [~tapioca@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:47:47 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:49:16 vantage|home [~vantage@7.40-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:49:35 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:08 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:53:32 -!- RomyRomy-afk [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy-afk] 19:55:30 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 19:56:08 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:59:48 -!- ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:00:43 Ok, so I'd like a bit of advice on terminology. I'm making a "trivial-" portability library. I'm pretty sure the API actual users of the library would use should be termed the "front-end" and the implementation-specific bits would be the "back-end", but I want (need?) a "double-sided" interface in the middle, with a front and back... 20:00:48 The front-end would access functionality of the backend through the... "middle-end front" and the backend would use the "middle-end back" to implement its part of the protocol... Does that make sense?... Am I overcomplicating things? 20:01:44 ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:53 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:02:02 -!- ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:02:22 ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:38 Or maybe I should call them "middle-end client" and "middle-end server". Also I'd really like to use "frontend" and "backend" instead, but "middleend" looks pretty ugly... Is there a good alternative name I could use for "middle-end".? 20:04:53 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@7.40-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:05:19 Oh, "backend client" and "backend server" could work nicely I guess. And then I'd rename the backend... backend implementation?... I'm clueless about the terminology I should use. :( 20:05:58 if the implementation is the backend, the api is the frontend? :) 20:08:21 phadthai: Well, there's an API users of the library would use, and a separate API lisp implementors (conceptually) would use. And the frontend has an implementation because it has some basic functionality and does some translation and verification of the inputs from the user and outputs coming from the backend, gotten through the "middle-end front"... 20:10:17 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10:19 And the "middle-end back" also has an implementation, that defines and exports "services" the backend use to extend the needed functionality... There isn't a 1-to-1 correspondance between the front-end and back-end. For instance the front-end emphasizes convenience for users, while the back-end emphasizes implementor convenience. 20:11:56 So the front-end necessarily has to "enhance" the information provided by the backend. For instance, in the front-end I have a "map-declaration-identifiers" function similar to map, that accepts a result-type, but the backend version just accepts a function argument, and the front-end adds the "accumulate values in a sequence" functionality itself. 20:12:16 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:16 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:12:16 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 20:13:03 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:32 I like back-ends, and I will not lie. You other hackers can't deny. 20:15:05 hefner: glad to have you back ;) 20:15:38 :) 20:15:55 n1tn4tsn0k|2 [~moo@178.47.222.140] has joined #lisp 20:18:23 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~moo@178.47.222.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:19:52 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:20:25 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 20:21:20 Whitesqu_ [~notwhites@94.242.177.62] has joined #lisp 20:23:37 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:24:19 -!- Whitesquall [~notwhites@94.242.177.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:25:19 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:26:08 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:16 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:16 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:26:16 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 20:28:05 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: Zzzz] 20:29:50 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:30:32 /me chuckles 20:30:37 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:39 or something 20:31:07 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 20:32:44 jokoon [~zonax@pai34-7-83-152-181-214.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:37 yoklov [~yoklov@c-76-127-240-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:43 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:37:01 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:47:00 h0x00 [~Ivoc@91.207.42.52] has joined #lisp 20:48:23 noname [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:29 -!- noname is now known as two- 20:49:39 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 20:51:41 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:51:57 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:51:59 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:52:00 Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:52:01 Joreji___ [~thomas@u-0-020.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:54:20 -!- Whitesqu_ [~notwhites@94.242.177.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:54:34 Kron__ [~Kron@69.166.22.224] has joined #lisp 20:54:37 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-205.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:08 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.214.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:56:30 ignas_ [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:57:20 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.206.187] has joined #lisp 20:59:17 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-50-49.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:58 Hello 21:01:36 -!- jokoon [~zonax@pai34-7-83-152-181-214.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:05:38 Is a defparameter within a defun a good idea if you're using it for a poll() like interface and plan to bind each user to a struct? 21:06:04 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.64.244] has joined #lisp 21:06:22 (I actually need to pass an argument as the variable for defparameter, which is why) 21:06:44 A def* form insinde a defun is never a good idea. 21:07:03 def* forms have compilation time effects that are available only when they're toplevel forms. 21:07:10 sounds like you want a closure. 21:07:47 I'm going to need to access this from elsewhere... 21:08:11 What form? 21:08:24 pjb: a MUD 21:08:27 (let ((form '(defparameter *v* 42))) (elsewhere form)) ? 21:08:43 No... 21:09:18 (defun username-variable (username) (concatenate 'string "*user-" username)) 21:09:38 (defun build-player-aux-1 (username password gender species stream) 21:09:39 (defparameter (username-variable username) ...)) 21:09:41 Cosman246: see progv 21:09:45 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:09:51 I'll check that out 21:10:00 This doesn't work, defparameter takes a symbol, not an expression! 21:10:27 That's also what I was going to ask... 21:12:05 Cosman246: Why not just have a *user* special variable and have that be bound to an object that to a USER object that has the relevant information? 21:12:05 Unless you're writing something like a lisp development environment, it is not a good idea to implement user level things as lisp things. 21:12:33 Instead of defining a lisp-program level special variable, just store the data in some data structure! 21:12:35 have that be bound to a USER object that has the relevant information* 21:13:08 (defun build-player-aux-1 (username password gender species stream) (setf (gethash (username-variable username) *usernames*) ... ) ...) 21:13:29 bind your user objects to hash-table slots, not to lisp program variables. 21:13:56 Hexstream: I believe that's what I was doing 21:13:57 What you're trying to do right now is a bit like using 5 variables when you should instead use an array of 5 elements... 21:14:07 Oh, I see now 21:14:25 So I should use a vector or hash table? 21:14:28 Yes 21:15:39 I actually had something a bit like that for checking passwords and such 21:15:47 Cosman246: (defparameter *user* nil), (defclass user () (whatever slots)), (let ((*user* whatever-user))), (user-whatever *user*), (user-slots *user*)... 21:15:52 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 21:16:05 I guess I should transform it from an alist with username and password to a vector/hash-table attached to the objects 21:16:48 I must leave now (lunch), but thank you! 21:16:56 This seems much cleaner 21:21:08 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-148-138-15.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:21:57 Guthur [~user@host86-148-138-15.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:26:14 sshirokov: just to let you know, I profiled the use of fixnum as message length 21:26:54 It gave a ~9% performance boost in a simple octet message creation and data access scenario 21:27:10 so I think I will limit to fixnum length by default 21:27:15 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 21:31:39 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:44:32 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 21:45:15 rme [~rme@50.43.152.6] has joined #lisp 21:45:44 hi 21:46:02 gigamonkey: hi, how are you ? 21:46:20 Posterdati: same as usual. You? 21:46:30 not bad not bad 21:46:55 -!- ngz [~user@23.78.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:04 did you tell me about raspberry board? 21:47:59 Posterdati: not me. 21:48:03 k 21:50:48 Is there a native-compiling CL for ARM? 21:50:55 Odin-: CCL. 21:51:06 or ECL 21:51:06 CCL, for ARMv7a, and ECL 21:51:08 Hmmm. 21:53:14 *Odin-* goes and refreshes his memory of the raspberry pi specs... 21:53:26 ARMv6TEJ 21:53:39 sorry, v6Z 21:54:56 Hm. 21:56:10 ngz [~user@23.78.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:28 at least if I remember the core used in it properly 21:59:53 Yes. 22:00:13 Interesting little experiment, that thing. 22:00:22 *Odin-* hopes it'll work. 22:03:52 osa1 [~sinan@88.242.137.36] has joined #lisp 22:08:41 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:33 coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:33 -!- coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:09:33 coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 22:11:19 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:40 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:12:07 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:14:22 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 22:14:36 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:15:14 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:22 Odin-: I hope it works too 22:16:49 the low spec board will be the one initially available, incase you did not know 22:17:12 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:17:12 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:17:12 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 22:17:56 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:20:45 -!- decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:30:23 |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:31:59 http://paste.lisp.org/display/127358 22:32:19 any idea why that only seems to do one iteration, even when I pass '(1 2) 22:32:39 is there something special about setf I am missing 22:34:51 Guthur: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127358#1 22:36:21 umm 22:38:48 pysco [~insecure@88.252.3.25] has joined #lisp 22:40:57 something else was the issue 22:41:02 not sure exactly what yet 22:42:28 -!- two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:43:27 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:43:29 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-249.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: alvis] 22:45:06 -!- pysco [~insecure@88.252.3.25] has quit [] 22:50:35 decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has joined #lisp 22:52:06 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75ef8f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:11 hi 22:52:32 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:53:54 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:16 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest23083 22:55:28 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.64.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:55:46 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:55:56 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:57:48 -!- osa1 [~sinan@88.242.137.36] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:22 pavelpenev [d4e986ac@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.233.134.172] has joined #lisp 23:01:32 -!- Guest23083 is now known as X-Scale 23:03:25 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.154.228] has joined #lisp 23:03:58 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:10:51 wildnux 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