16:19:47 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 16:19:47 16:19:47 -!- names: ccl-logbot BlankVerse sunmix rme hugod srolls dnolen Khisanth LiamH ianmcorvidae jtza8 fiveop venk rmathews sipo cyb3r3li0 shurane Posterdati hefner TDT teggi Vutral faust45 attila_lendvai hang varjagg MoALTz_ SurlyFrog mathrick_ asvil n1tn4tsn0k rmarianski karswell ISF peccu1 Yuuhi nitro_id_ homie` Joreji___ Joreji_ Joreji jlaire Shugen billstclair centipedefarmer el-maxo ASau```` jjkola wbooze kpal mrSpec simplechat daniel___ mstevens kennyd_ 16:19:47 -!- names: Jeanne-Kamikaze c_arenz Guest28547 EyesIsServer Joreji__ kpreid Blkt trebor_dki xan_ totzeit _pw_ Algo kami _root_ mishoo ghoti- vantage|work angavrilov benny jdz gemelen mvilleneuve gravicappa zenlunatic JuniorRoy edgar-rft kuzary gigamonk` sykopomp arrsim lemoinem egn anonus Vivitron EarlGray srcerer _schulte_ saint_cypher Kenjin pchrist Nisstyre Zephyrus X-Scale flip214 s0ber Amadiro scharan quasisane maxm-- sellout gaidal prip zmv AntiSpamMeta 16:19:47 -!- names: macrobat naryl theBlackDragon CrazyEddy OliverUv peterhil froggey schmx kenanb tic gz Frozenlo` twopi MikeSeth abeaumont dan64 jjkola_work joshe Adlai _3b tltstc ihyoyoung nialo- Adrinael ghuntley inklesspen November scode rson ered Praise p_l ecraven noth1ng Tordek tritchey lonstein __krappie brendyn kanru Kryztof axion Nshag yan_ redline6561 oGMo qsun jasom Neronus _stink_ df_ Patzy j_king deepfire sav wolgo erg rahul __class__ vhost- koollman 16:19:47 -!- names: oconnore Intensity yroeht borodon ArmyOfBruce araujo yeltzooo galdor MrBusiness ski_ peterbb peterhil` rtoym acieroid joast jaimef TristamWrk syrinx_ m0prl clog ozzloy tychoish kaol basho__ felideon tessier bobbysmith007 donigan cods bsamograd setmeaway2 drl arnsholt phadthai pok luis mtd chee guther johs Axioplase_ cYmen_ billitch lusory Mandus |3b| ve mathrick Fade howeyc finnrobi Quadrescence Bucciarati newcup boyscared reb YokYok em parabolize jakky 16:19:47 -!- names: elliottcable SeanTAllen djinni` niko sousousou Euthy foom easye DGASAU rootzlevel jrockway Phoodus McMAGIC--Copy loke djanatyn ramus austinh PissedNumlock Odin- aerique ciplevel rabite rotty CrazyThinker jeekl rotty__ jsnell Xof eMBee fe[nl]ix nowhere_man cmbntr_ anthracite SHODAN gkeith_lt guaqua ayan literal dmiles_afk dsp_ ch077179 drdo djuber cow-orker freiksenet dRbiG The_third_man lake derrida tvaalen chr dcguru Ralith a7p levi Jasko antoszka 16:19:47 -!- names: cmatei stepnem beslyrus bzzbzz cmm mon_key eno pkhuong weinholt bfein nuba Obfuscate emit SpitfireWP eli arbscht kloeri zbigniew Kovensky pjb tempire tomaw Yamazaki-kun shachaf xristos r_takaishi Xach cpt_nemo housel ft rdd` Dodek madnificent Yahovah_ kleppari tali713 mk_ Tristam foocraft jiacobucci Borbus k9quaint klutometis hyko DrForr daimrod jayne elliottjohnson nicdev_ dfox samebchase ineiros dlowe H4ns antifuchs Zhivago felipe cpape Jabberwockey 16:19:47 -!- names: g000001 ``Erik timb dcrawford fmu herbieB_ devhost Utkarsh mgr tty234 micro` pokes daedric z0d sbryant rvncerr limetree C-Keen sshirokov mal 16:20:23 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 16:22:50 hefner: if it is based on some form of basic format, i can probably find it on wikipedia also. 16:23:18 madnificent: it's just raw audio. you could use the sine function, for instance. 16:24:12 it indicates how far the box's sound-cardboard-thing should be retracted then? 16:24:34 yeah 16:24:39 ah cool! thanks 16:25:24 (map '(simple-array double-float 1) 'identity (loop for i from 0 below 20000 collect (float (sin (/ i 10)) 0.0d0))) 16:25:57 thanks, i'll toy with it :) 16:26:33 cool, have fun. 16:27:03 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 16:28:12 -!- shurane [~mortimer@65-86-91-130.client.dsl.net] has left #lisp 16:29:26 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-124.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:29:26 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-124.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 16:29:38 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-124.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:30:19 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: Offline] 16:32:28 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:15 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 16:33:50 hefner: About the mixalot library: at some point I plan to do some audio programming with common lisp, and my music producer/dj background tells me that it's too monolithic 16:34:33 el-maxo: in what sense? 16:34:36 as far as I can see its a base for writing a music player like xmms or similar 16:35:09 add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-2-213.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 16:35:13 I'd say that's accurate, yeah. 16:36:25 Well say I want to write a graphical mixer (as in channels with level and gain, a fader, etc), and a player. 16:37:13 mixer shouldn't know about alsa/oss or whatever, and the players shouldn't know about mixing 16:37:47 yeah, I should've factored the pieces differently. someday. 16:39:06 because what you want as a dj in the end is, 2 or more players, that "pump" a wave into a sink, the mixer channel, and the mixer has maybe several output waves, one for monitoring, one for recording and maybe even one for the presentaion speakers 16:39:28 where 2 or more player should ideally be instances of the same player program 16:40:09 an app like that will need a specialized mixer regardless, and probably shouldn't be written in CL at all 16:40:28 tfb [~tfb@92.41.117.246.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:40:35 it's not a critic or anything it's just that I think alot about digital music, and the current trend of monolithic audio software makes a lot of stuff really hard 16:40:36 but I should fix a couple flaws in the mixalot design that make it harder to plug things together than it should be 16:40:48 -!- sunmix [~user@223.205.71.203] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:40:58 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-10-47.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:41:14 sound programs/infrastructure should be more like unix in the respect of piping stuff together 16:41:16 kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 16:41:20 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:41:33 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has left #lisp 16:41:35 -!- nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-10-47.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:41:52 kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 16:41:58 also OSSv4 support is important ;) 16:42:32 ThomasH [~user@ppp-70-130-38-1.dsl.wchtks.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:34 *p_l* would just support Jack 16:42:34 -!- ThomasH [~user@ppp-70-130-38-1.dsl.wchtks.swbell.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:42:35 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 16:42:38 Greetings lispers 16:42:46 hi thomas 16:42:48 'afternoon tmh 16:43:13 p_l: jack is neat, but questionably big and unsupported 16:43:13 sunmix [~user@223.205.71.203] has joined #lisp 16:43:58 jil [~maliky@83.229.34.2] has joined #lisp 16:44:01 el-maxo: ... I'd suspect OSSv4 to be supported even less 16:44:23 any interesting audio software I've encountered under *nix went with Jack 16:44:54 LispWorks 6.1 came out today. I love it when a new version of something comes out that fixes interface annoyances that I was too lazy to fix with initialization code. 16:45:30 -!- hang [~hang@112.152.81.14] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:45:49 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.33] has joined #lisp 16:45:51 I also love that thing 16:46:16 p_l: ossv4 is being bullied out by the linux community, but every other unix uses or supports oss and it is a matter of fact that ALSA can not compare to OSS in terms of quality 16:46:21 ls 16:46:25 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-103-224.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:46:27 Granted, these things should be fixed since it's a paid product, but I didn't *have* to wait for a new release. 16:46:32 lnostdal [~lnostdal@149.62.178.226] has joined #lisp 16:46:58 That sounds almost as much fun as fixing it yourself. Maybe even more fun. 16:47:40 Who says laziness never pays off? 16:48:48 el-maxo: that's because OSS was the only thing available on other unices outside of /dev/audio. As for being bullied... the scarce support available didn't make interested, and the only bully is the craziness known as PulseAudio 16:49:01 bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has joined #lisp 16:49:21 higher quality? heh 16:50:04 as for quality... ALSA has nothing related to it, neither does OSS 16:50:05 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 16:50:07 other than placebo 16:50:15 unless, of course, you have a card that lacks a mixer 16:50:47 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:51:40 (unless we are talking about *latency*) 16:51:54 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.33] has quit [Quit: Offline] 16:52:09 karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:52:19 dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 16:52:24 unless we're talking about proaudio gear any discussion about quality is moot to begin with 16:52:38 and alsa did just fine with the delta44 card i was using 16:53:18 oGMo: and proaudio stuff that doesn't fit anymore in the pci tends to be external... and there are drivers for Jack for it that bypass alsa and such 16:53:43 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:53:53 p_l: i recall jack being painful and high latency when it worked at all, but this was awhile ago 16:54:08 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:54:24 it may be 'the thing' now, but sadly since motu is completely proprietary i only really use osx for sound ;/ 16:54:34 oGMo: I recall it being annoying to setup 16:54:43 latency... depended on that 16:54:53 also, there are two versions last time I checked 16:55:15 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.33] has joined #lisp 16:55:41 -!- zmv [~zmv@186.204.150.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:55:41 i thought there was another sound bus handler now but dunno .. i actually freed up space around the single lone PCI slot this board has so i should install my card again, see if there are any lisp wrappers 16:56:14 people are making games, so there ought to be something 16:56:38 most of the games stuff seems to use SDL 16:56:56 oh right sdl has its own audio layer 16:57:10 jack developers themselves were not happy with the product at all, i remind them joining freenode channels and asking people for advice and critique 16:57:49 they were preparing for some big changes i guess 17:00:24 senj [~senj@S01060026f323bcdf.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:20 Is there a way to get at the symbol generated by (gensym) absent the #:? I have a macro and am using (gensym) to make sure that the names used inside the macro don't conflict with potential callers. But those names wind up in someone else's macro, and the #: is messing it up. 17:04:01 decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has joined #lisp 17:04:06 I want to be able to do (let ((foo (gensym)) in my macro, but when I use ,foo I just want the part after the #:. 17:04:10 to show up. 17:04:15 An annoying feature of LOOP is that if you have for index from 1 to 10 with something like as val = (foo index), index is set to 11 in the finally clause, but val is still (foo 10). I'd rather index still be 10 in the finally clause. Or, less desirably, val be (foo 11). 17:04:25 SurlyFrog: "messing it up"? 17:04:36 SurlyFrog: visually, you mean? 17:05:00 yeah, the other persons macro adjusts the read-table. I'll do a quick post to lisp paste and show you. 17:05:34 The surface syntax should not affect the object identity. You can't re-read it and get the same object anyway. 17:08:04 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 17:08:35 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:08:48 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 17:08:53 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:09:11 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:10:15 -!- jil [~maliky@83.229.34.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:10:52 hang [~hang@112.152.81.14] has joined #lisp 17:10:52 -!- sunmix [~user@223.205.71.203] has left #lisp 17:11:26 okay http://paste.lisp.org/display/127341 17:11:44 sunmix [~user@223.205.71.203] has joined #lisp 17:12:16 -!- vantage|work [~chatzilla@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 9.0.1/20111220165912]] 17:13:15 The thing at the other end of this query doesn't understand the #:?foo. It needs to see ?foo. See what I mean? 17:13:23 Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:45 borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:26 SurlyFrog: Why doesn't it understand it? 17:14:41 SurlyFrog: How does it identify ? variables? 17:14:44 So, what I want is the "give me a unique name" feature of (gensym), without the #: attached to the front of it, because what is going to wind up using that value isn't Lisp. 17:15:01 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:15:24 This is what I'm talking about -> http://paste.lisp.org/display/127342 17:15:30 SurlyFrog: The symbol-name of #:?foo is "?FOO" and the symbol-name of ?foo is "?FOO", so anything that looks at e.g. the first letter of the name will not care. 17:16:26 That prolog query gets wrapped up and passed over HTTP to a remote server. Whence I can only imaging a parser unpacks it and then passes it to a Lisp. So that end doesn't see the #:?foo as a valid query. 17:16:58 Xach: butI think you just gave me the answer. I should be able to call (symbol-name) in the macro to get what I want.... 17:17:04 SurlyFrog: Or just don't use gensym. 17:17:17 SurlyFrog: Or, use gensym and then import. 17:17:22 There are so many options! 17:17:25 Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:36 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:17:48 e.g. (let ((f-name (import (gensym "?")))))) ...) 17:17:55 Xach: hi 17:18:28 Xach: well, I want the uniquness of gensym. I don't ever want the names of variables I'm generating inside the macro to conflict with the names of parameters coming into it. 17:18:42 Xach: either way, calling (symbol-name) works. Thanks! 17:19:29 *Xach* can't imagine how, will let it go 17:19:32 sunmix` [~user@223.205.71.203] has joined #lisp 17:20:22 -!- sunmix [~user@223.205.71.203] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:20:44 -!- sunmix` is now known as sunmix 17:21:21 -!- sunmix [~user@223.205.71.203] has left #lisp 17:21:33 Xach: yeahit's probably best to do so. There are a few other things going on here. However, the basis for what I'm trying to do comes from Chapter 8 of Practical Common Lisp. Down in the "Plugging the Leaks" section. 17:23:04 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-anuqztxfxetghihj] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:23:51 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 17:23:53 zophy [~zophy@host-5-150-220-24.midco.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:01 antgreen [~user@70.50.65.30] has joined #lisp 17:24:54 is a core a binary that is OS and hardware specific ? 17:25:30 zophy: almost always. 17:27:25 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-124.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:27:43 so i wonder if there is a way to transport a lisp image to another hardware platform ? 17:28:04 i guess a build system is the way 17:28:22 zophy: CLISP cores, with CLISP using bytecode, work across different platforms 17:28:22 *sykopomp* wonders if clisp images are hardware-portable. 17:28:29 -!- TDT [~user@dhcpw267c56cc.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:28:30 oooh 17:28:43 sykopomp: afaik yes 17:28:49 not really, clisp images are not portable either. 17:28:52 there's also ABCL, but I don't know if you can just dump an ABCL image. 17:29:09 Some more work would be needed to make image portable accross underlying plateforms. 17:29:27 It's theorically possible, but has not been deemed worthwhile in practice. 17:31:14 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-124.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 17:31:19 -!- beslyrus [~Brucio-12@adsl-76-254-43-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 17:31:22 katrinam13 [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:31:59 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:32:19 is there a generic max-like function for which you could specify the test to use? 17:33:14 SurlyFrog: there are so many things you don't understand... 17:33:20 newcup: I sometimes use cl-utilities:extremum for that. 17:33:29 pjb: yeahI know..... 17:33:50 SurlyFrog: probably one thing that breaks the "prolog" part, is that your gensym contains only digits after the ?; it probably expects some letters. 17:34:07 pjb: that is *definitely* happening. 17:34:26 Xach: thanks! 17:34:52 SurlyFrog: read this: http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf 17:35:07 pjb: thanks 17:35:20 *Xach* feels a shiver every time that awful document is shared 17:35:38 Write a better one! 17:36:00 *Xach* is working on it 17:36:09 *Xach* spread thin 17:42:06 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:42:45 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-28-50.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:57 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:48:55 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.33] has quit [Quit: Offline] 17:49:34 -!- xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:50:30 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.81.196.106] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 17:50:41 kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-180-136.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:50:52 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:54:00 sykopomp: unfortunately, no. 17:54:20 ehu: does Java have facilities for dumping the current image that can be used? :\ 17:54:28 s/java/the jvm/ 17:54:52 adu [~ajr@64.134.97.212] has joined #lisp 17:55:09 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:56:04 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-210-237.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:56:13 why + isn't generic ? 17:56:39 So that CL compilers can generate code as fast as C compilers. 17:56:48 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.33] has joined #lisp 17:56:52 See http://cliki.net/Performance 17:57:11 i want to use promises fully 17:57:16 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-237.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:57:28 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:57:43 anonus: because it's older than CLOS? 17:57:45 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.117.246.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Quit: gone] 17:57:55 for example if x is promise that return int and y is an int (+ x y) should return promise 17:58:08 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 17:58:12 anonus: (shadow '+) (defgeneric + (a b)). 17:58:24 hmm 17:58:30 anonus: if it's that important to you, shadow cl:+ and (defun + (&rest nums) (reduce #'my-add nums)) (defgeneric my-add (a b)) 17:58:36 anonus: WHAT? 17:58:47 pjb: m? 17:58:54 CL provides you with the tool to do what you want and you're not happy? 17:58:54 anonus: ...what? 17:59:18 what ? 17:59:28 what's what? %) 17:59:36 I love the thirty wat pileup 17:59:46 i don't get it why anyone upset? %) 18:00:41 anonus: the solution was given. 18:00:55 sykopomp: astalla once tried to use Serializable for it, but it wasn't exactly a clear track on what to do. 18:01:10 yep, but i think it's a little bit cheating 18:01:20 but anyway thanks 18:01:39 cheating++ 18:01:44 there is no cheating in CL 18:01:46 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:01:49 is there something like implicits in CL ? 18:01:50 only CL doing its job. 18:01:51 ejbs [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 18:01:57 wtf are implicits 18:02:08 anonus: it is important that the following code works correctly: (handler-case (progn (assert (not (numberp x))) (+ x x)) (error () 42)) --> 42 18:02:18 for example if i want to convert one type to another silently 18:02:18 are we having a day of retardation, or is anonus a duck troll? 18:02:36 whaaaaat ? 18:02:36 buh 18:02:39 lol 18:02:53 sykopomp: anything in programming which is 'implicit' or 'implied' usually is a huge cause for trouble. 18:02:54 anonus: I mean with cl:+ (handler-case (progn (assert (not (numberp x))) (cl:+ x x)) (error () 42)) --> 42 ; if x is one of your futures (which doesn't evaluate to 24), it wouldn't return 42. 18:02:58 so, I'd say 'trouble' 18:03:11 anonus: CL is strongly typed. That sort of stuff isn't very common, or looked upon well. 18:03:15 Fade: I think it was a pileup of misunderstandings and "lost in translation" moments 18:03:24 *nod* 18:03:41 sykopomp: i know, so i've asking, can i _define_ an implicit 18:03:51 anonus: you could do that with genfuns, I guess. 18:03:59 I would slap you if you did it in my code. 18:04:01 but you could, yes. 18:04:05 sykopomp: that strong typing made me feel warm&happy about CL after seeing the WAT tak 18:04:08 *talk 18:04:23 lol 18:04:51 sykopomp: but if i want to convert it passing to some function? should i shadow it and define an generic ? 18:05:29 is that a reasonable thing which you find yourself wanting to do a lot? 18:05:38 like in example with '+ 18:05:40 anonus: or convert it manually, which is what I'd recommend. 18:05:57 (+ (parse-integer "1") 41) 18:06:31 too much to write >.< 18:07:32 but it's clear, and clear programs have less bugs. 18:07:37 anyway, thanks for idea with shadowing generics... 18:07:44 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 18:07:45 CL isn't perl, sorry. We like writing programs that can be read. 18:07:47 I *hate* that. I was /actually/ doing things correctly from the get-go. My test case was querying the wrong data set. So it was returning nil, which had me thinking that the macro was messed up due to (gensym), which got me asking all of the wrong questions. Once I pointed it at the right test data, things got better. 18:07:49 you'll learn your lesson eventually. 18:07:53 anonus: "1" + 12 -> what do you expect? 18:07:54 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:08:03 daimrod: "112" 18:08:05 :3 18:08:06 13 ? "112" ? "13"/ 18:08:11 *gigamonkey* was about to say tha. 18:08:12 t. 18:08:14 bah. 18:08:17 Xach and pjb: thanks for you patience. 18:08:35 daimrod: it's depends on what implicit is defined 18:08:42 I expect 13 for 1 + "12", though. 18:08:53 because I get to make stupid arbitrary decisions when I'm doing stupid arbitrary things. 18:08:55 if defined string -> int then it will be 13 18:09:08 actually, I'd rather make it randomly return either one, to be "fair" 18:09:08 -!- decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:09:10 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-155-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:09:28 sykopomp: Haha, that's hilarious 18:09:40 anonus: how? print "1" + 12 -> ??? 18:09:41 I should write a library. "Generic +" 18:09:46 and then "1" - 12 18:09:48 and make it actually return either one at random. 18:10:12 yes, an UB. 18:10:13 Xach: is your dislike of Gat's package paper because you think it's fundamentally misleading or just poorly executed? 18:10:16 daimrod: that one is obviously "-11" 18:10:23 the string "-11" 18:10:46 In Javascript, 1 + "12" = "112" 18:10:57 brilliant 18:11:08 daimrod: you just should avoid defining implicits that unclear 18:11:12 I wonder what Rust will do 18:11:21 since Rust:Haskell::JavaScript:Scheme 18:11:34 daimrod: that make things unclear 18:11:35 gigamonkey: hi, how are you ? 18:11:45 sykopomp: in this order? 18:12:06 Posterdati: yo. As usual, goodish. 18:12:07 daimrod: I think CL:RANDOM is the only way to be fair and correct. 18:14:05 austinh: don't forget about Array(16).join("what" - 1) + " Batman" 18:14:19 okay, thanks everyone. wait for next season named "algebraic types with generics"... 18:15:13 it comes a little later... 18:15:36 Hmmmm, I think Gat's packages paper falls in the anti-pattern beloved by Lispers of "Attempted edification by confusication." 18:16:15 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:16:40 -!- daniel___ is now known as daniel 18:18:14 karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:18:22 gigamonkey: There are outright errors that grate, but could be corrected. 18:18:22 hmm, no, implicits as shadowing generics is not enogh declarative i think 18:18:57 gigamonkey: But more grating is the pervasive tone of "This is confusing because it's dumb, so don't feel bad. So scary! And dumb! Eek!" 18:19:58 Xach: Yes. That's the essence of the anti-pattern I just made up. 18:20:09 decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has joined #lisp 18:20:16 -!- karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:20:20 -!- ASau```` is now known as ASau 18:20:47 for example if i have one class that can be converted to another class, and i want to convert that class everywhre when it passed as an argument to a method for second class... 18:20:51 The sort of arm-around-your-shoulders, of-course-you-agree "This is just awful stuff, isn't it? I'll help you. But peeeeeyew!!" 18:20:57 to some methods 18:21:29 maybe newly declared outside... 18:22:02 What libs are there for writing parsers in Common Lisp? I've seen Smug but some alternatives would be nice to know about... 18:22:09 There's two kinds of lispers: the kind that does the hacking, and the kind that does all the talking. Wait, that's only one kind of lisper. 18:22:28 Read about them in my upcoming book, Hackers & Talkers 18:22:48 ejbs: cl-yacc is one I've heard of. jwacs uses it to parse javascript. 18:22:49 Xach: I would read such a book 18:23:07 Hackers & Yakkers? 18:23:15 because I don't really care about painting 18:23:55 Xach: okay, I'll check that one out 18:24:19 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:24:32 ccorn [~ccorn@dhcp-077-249-189-185.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 18:25:32 -!- ASau [~user@95-24-54-209.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:25:56 ejbs: there's also this https://github.com/gigamonkey/monkeylib-parser which is used in this https://github.com/gigamonkey/monkeylib-json 18:26:12 Though I'm not sure I'd actually recommend using it. 18:27:26 nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-141-158.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:27:54 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@dhcp-077-249-189-185.chello.nl] has quit 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Or anyone just morbidly curious as the what the heck I was trying to do this morning when I had all of the questions regarding (gensym).http://paste.lisp.org/display/127343 19:00:42 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-103-224.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:00:42 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:00:48 lnostdal [~lnostdal@149.62.178.226] has joined #lisp 19:01:49 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@149.62.178.226] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:02:32 lnostdal [~lnostdal@149.62.178.226] has joined #lisp 19:06:54 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 19:10:02 joast [~rick@76.178.187.164] has joined #lisp 19:10:39 -!- tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: tltstc] 19:12:38 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:15:24 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:34 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 19:16:40 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:18:10 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:18:14 Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:24 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:22:13 Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:11 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:24:28 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 19:28:08 maxm--- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:14 -!- maxm-- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28:28 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 19:28:47 -!- decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:33:27 Xach: ping 19:33:58 -!- kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-180-136.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:34:50 decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has joined #lisp 19:37:48 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@149.62.178.226] has joined #lisp 19:37:54 hi jjkola 19:37:57 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-189262.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:37:57 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@149.62.178.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:38:56 petit patapong 19:39:30 Xach: sorry, false alarm, I thought there is a problem with quicklisp with :downcase readtable case but it might actually be a problem with sbcl... 19:39:37 pon pon patapon 19:39:56 phew 19:40:16 -!- sunmix [~user@223.205.71.203] has left #lisp 19:41:32 sunmix [~user@223.205.71.203] has joined #lisp 19:42:01 I'm getting illegal function call with when trying to run quicklisp init script from .sbclrc with (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :downcase) as first line 19:42:58 I tried to verify a patch with :downcase readtable case but it seems that I'm out of luck at least with sbcl 19:43:25 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:43:28 jjkola: do you know what (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :downcase) does? 19:43:50 jjkola: Try (|SETF| (|READTABLE-CASE| |*READTABLE*|) :|DOWNCASE|) '(hello world) 19:44:21 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:44:25 pjb: It's so cute when you're condescending. 19:45:02 I want to use a future like construct to recv some messages, but I'm in two minds on the API, either a flet generating macro, or higher order func 19:45:18 any suggestions on what seems the more natural 19:45:37 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 19:45:57 the flet was more to avoid having to use funcall, i suppose 19:46:08 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:46:38 though to pass it to a higher order func #'fn needs to be passed 19:47:02 jjkola: Try (|SETF| (|READTABLE-CASE| |*READTABLE*|) :|DOWNCASE|) (mapcar 'symbol-name '(hello world)) 19:47:29 Xach: Yes, the effects of the readtable-case on the printer are misleading... 19:48:59 jjkola: Try (|SETF| (|READTABLE-CASE| |*READTABLE*|) :|DOWNCASE|) (|MAPCAR| '|SYMBOL-NAME| '(hello world)) 19:49:11 MY GOD 19:49:16 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:17 -!- nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-141-158.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:31 jjkola: already, the difference between the last two try should tell you something 19:49:31 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest89281 19:49:33 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:49:50 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-141-158.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:50:02 pjb / Xach: I think you both stepped out, but if either of you were morbidly curious about what I was blathering on about this morning, it's here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127343 19:50:02 Guthur: why a future? Is this still the 0MQ thing? 19:50:14 SurlyFrog: i saw it 19:50:41 Xach: does it make sense? 19:51:42 pkhuong: yeah, its for a multi part message 19:51:43 pjb: thanks for educating me, I had a misconception about that 19:52:09 -!- ThomasH` is now known as ThomaH 19:52:15 -!- Xof [~crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:53:18 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:53:34 -!- katrinam13 [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 19:54:05 saint_cypher [~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has joined #lisp 19:54:14 pkhuong: nearly finished, just adding some suggestions sshirokov made last night 19:54:15 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-141-158.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:54:25 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 19:54:34 so I take that :downcase is pretty useless, am I wrong? 19:55:06 milanj [~milanj_@77.243.22.50] has joined #lisp 19:55:25 -!- ThomaH is now known as ThomasH` 19:55:46 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129013070.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 19:56:34 -!- ThomasH` [~user@ppp-70-130-45-142.dsl.wchtks.swbell.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:56:34 ThomasH` [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 19:56:39 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:56:58 -!- ThomasH` is now known as ThomasH 19:57:03 jjkola, maybe you are looking for (setf *print-case* :downcase) ? 19:57:17 Sorry for the noise, was grouping the nick. 19:57:26 SurlyFrog: I couldn't really puzzle it out quickly. 19:57:38 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has joined #lisp 19:58:00 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:58:40 jjkola: it can be used to read user sexps, with user defined functions, or with a specific interpreter (DSL). 20:00:35 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: Zzzzz] 20:00:48 xan_ [~xan@191.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:29 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-155-85.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:02:52 Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 20:03:09 dtw, pjb: thanks 20:04:53 Xach: that's okay. Thanks a *ton* for even looking at it. I appreciate the help. 20:05:54 fantazo [~fantazo@85-127-93-0.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:06:57 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-018.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:07:13 -!- Joreji___ [~thomas@u-0-018.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:07:48 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-018.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:07:59 -!- Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-018.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:08:47 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-021.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:09:00 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-021.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:09:14 Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-021.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:09:17 Gertm [~Gertm@dD5768144.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:09:32 Joreji___ [~thomas@u-0-021.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:13:43 pnq [~nick@AC812BD6.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:32 ThomasH: do you remember the discussion of mapping to all elements of multiple variable length lists last night? 20:15:50 just came up with a recursive solution: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127350 20:15:50 Guthur: No, I was drunk. ;-) 20:15:56 ThomasH: ah 20:16:03 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~moo@178.47.225.5] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:16:24 wait those aren't varied length so bad example 20:16:26 doh 20:16:29 n1tn4tsn0k [~moo@178.47.222.140] has joined #lisp 20:16:37 but it does work 20:16:50 just for fun though 20:17:12 Guthur: Though, they say that if you commit things to memory in a certain state, you'll recall them better if you're in that state. So, I'll go get some scotch. 20:17:38 -!- sunmix [~user@223.205.71.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:18:19 ThomasH: not all states are equal though 20:18:32 Guthur: What does CONS get you over NCONC? 20:18:43 Does it matter? 20:19:12 lnostdal [~lnostdal@149.62.178.226] has joined #lisp 20:19:20 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@149.62.178.226] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:19:48 nconc doesn't work, if that matters 20:20:05 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:20:43 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@149.62.178.226] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:20:57 Guthur: Oh, yeah, you're getting a value from fn, not a list, ok. 20:24:04 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-124-079.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 20:26:13 -!- sipo [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:26:36 dustinside [~cartoon@119.152.95.128] has joined #lisp 20:26:48 ghj 20:27:14 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:29:38 -!- dustinside [~cartoon@119.152.95.128] has left #lisp 20:30:58 Guthur: Something completely different(not really) -> http://paste.lisp.org/display/127350#1 20:32:14 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-156-119.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:32:18 Guthur: Guess I'm also using MAPCAR. 20:32:27 ThomasH: ah yes, that's better 20:33:05 Guthur: You'll probably want some more error checking, but in principle, that's how I would do it. 20:33:18 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:33:29 never occurred to me to use them 20:33:48 makes sense though 20:34:02 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-156-119.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:35 Guthur: I think it is easier to follow the logic when it is expressed with NCONC and MAPCAR. 20:36:17 sure, though I was thinking more that mapcar maybe more ripe for optimization by an implementation, though that's a rather subjective opinion 20:38:47 just wrote this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127346#1 20:38:48 Guthur: It would be a good exercise to profile your implementation that uses CONS and mine with NCONC and MAPCAR to see if there is a significant performance difference. 20:38:54 Comments? 20:39:32 I see 2 comments. 20:40:12 osa1 [~sinan@176.237.165.166] has joined #lisp 20:40:32 grrr 20:40:37 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 20:40:45 I know this doesnt belong in this channel 20:40:49 It just occurred to me that line numbers would be handy on the pastes. 20:40:53 but is GCC buggy or what? its drivin me nuts 20:41:02 lambda.h:5:8: note: expected struct lambda * but argument is of type struct lambda * 20:41:03 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:41:52 gcc is not buggy. 20:42:08 I mean, how could I have done it better 20:42:16 samebchase: it's a one liner: (loop :for date :from (encode-universal-time 0 0 12 1 1 1900) :to (encode-universal-time 0 0 12 1 1 2000) :by (* 60 60 24) :when (multiple-value-bind (se mi ho da mo ye dow) (decode-universal-time date) (when (and (= 13 da) (= 6 dow)) (print (list ye mo da))))) 20:42:23 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:42:37 You could optimize it by starting from a Friday, and :by (* 60 60 24 7). 20:42:59 great one liner 20:43:20 ThomasH: yours took about 2/3s the time 20:43:38 in a rough benchmark 20:43:43 Guthur: Probably not an important amount of time, though. 20:43:49 pjb: woah, nice! 20:44:02 ThomasH: cons'd slightly less as well 20:44:08 -!- karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:44:35 again around the 2/3 mark 20:45:10 very rough though, I didn't even do any declares 20:45:12 Guthur: There's probably some wicked clever way to implement it destructively. 20:45:17 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:45:46 1900-01-01 was a sunday. 20:46:09 monday 20:46:27 just checked with cal 20:46:46 Right 0 = monday. 20:47:27 So 1900-01-05 was Friday. 20:47:33 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:47:41 samebchase: it's a one liner: (loop :for date :from (encode-universal-time 0 0 12 5 1 1900) :to (encode-universal-time 0 0 12 1 1 2000) :by (* 60 60 24 7) :when (multiple-value-bind (se mi ho da mo ye dow) (decode-universal-time date) (when (and (= 13 da) (= 6 dow)) (print (list ye mo da))))) ; 7 times faster. 20:48:15 s/(= 6 dow)/(= 5 dow) 20:48:36 of course! 20:48:36 samebchase: solving projecteuler? 20:48:55 madnificent: I did 17 a few months ago in lisp 20:49:21 madnificent: one of my friends was trying to do that, so I just wanted to give it a shot 20:49:33 dunno where the problem is from 20:49:36 samebchase: :) 20:49:45 -!- osa1 [~sinan@176.237.165.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:50:37 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-155-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:51:04 osa1 [~sinan@95.8.102.79] has joined #lisp 20:51:13 I need to make a committment to work on Euler again. 20:51:17 pjb: did you try that? 20:52:04 No. 20:52:09 pjb: That makes sense, but I'm getting an error 20:52:10 that loop doesn't make a lot of sense. 20:52:41 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-85.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:54:00 pjb: Try it sometime. 20:54:09 This one works: :-) (loop :for date :from (encode-universal-time 0 0 12 5 1 1900) :to (encode-universal-time 0 0 12 1 1 2000) :by (* 60 60 24 7) :do (multiple-value-bind (se mi ho da mo ye dow) (decode-universal-time date) (declare (ignore ho mi se)) (when (and (= 13 da) (= 4 dow)) (print (list ye mo da))))) 20:54:13 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:54:27 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 20:54:37 samebchase: yes, s/:when/:do/ and s/(= 5 dow)/(= 4 dow) 20:55:38 -!- pnq [~nick@AC812BD6.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:56:36 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:00:00 -!- osa1 [~sinan@95.8.102.79] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:14 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:01:45 Is this a good use for closures? 21:01:51 No. 21:01:57 There's no closure here. 21:02:10 the variable counter 21:02:14 in my version 21:02:59 You can get the same with a loop variable. 21:03:34 -!- ejbs [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:04:39 osa1 [~sinan@95.8.102.79] has joined #lisp 21:05:01 Xach: actually the question should have been: "Was this a good use of closures?" 21:05:08 No. 21:05:11 ok 21:05:51 I remember seeing stuff like that in a few basic tutorials 21:06:01 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77.243.22.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:06:07 That's not typical CL style, mostly. 21:06:20 oh 21:06:51 e.g. this: http://psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/chapter15.html 21:07:09 it does look weird to have a let and then defuns in it 21:07:36 I return closures far more often than I create closures with defun. 21:07:47 *Xach* can't think of the last time he had a defun "closure" 21:07:48 Yes, but only when it's justified. When you have to pass a function somewhere, or use functions to abstract away the counters. Here you already have counters in the LOOP, so you could as well write one more. 21:08:08 hmm 21:08:14 A defun closure is like a singleton, too. 21:08:31 ThomasH: I came up with one example that cons less 21:08:38 but still slow, I recv 21:08:40 oops 21:09:15 I recurred using a label structure within the mapall func, collecting the results with a nconc 21:09:53 -!- faust45 [~faust45@92-49-245-234.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 21:10:51 Guthur: I think you could make a destructive version based on your original implementation. 21:10:55 faust45 [~faust45@92-49-245-234.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 21:11:07 so defun "closures" are only good for trivial examples in tutorial 21:11:35 Yes, or very justified like singletons. 21:12:34 ThomasH: possibly, this is distracting me from me real project work, hehe 21:12:38 karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:13:11 Guthur: That's the point of #lisp+paste.lisp.org, diversion from real work. 21:14:02 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:14:48 pjb: your one liner has been pasted for posterity 21:15:04 :-) 21:15:40 'night lispers! 21:15:53 goodnight samebchase 21:16:42 'night madnificent 21:17:02 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~moo@178.47.222.140] has quit [Quit: Топинамбур?] 21:17:31 -!- wag [~user@c75-111-9-153.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has left #lisp 21:18:43 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.206.187] has joined #lisp 21:18:52 -!- osa1 [~sinan@95.8.102.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:20:44 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-103-224.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 21:22:55 waveman [~tim@124-168-114-219.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:24:11 is this an octet vector type declaration: (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)) 21:24:21 yes 21:24:31 cool, wanted to be sure 21:24:46 When I was younger I thought (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) *) was it, but that is something very different. 21:25:02 -!- decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has quit [Quit: reboot] 21:25:05 is that any dimensionality? 21:25:07 yeah 21:25:20 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 21:25:30 kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 21:26:56 decaf [~mehmet@unaffiliated/decaf] has joined #lisp 21:28:41 -!- Guest89281 is now known as X-Scale 21:33:10 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.109.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:35:02 mishoo_ [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has joined #lisp 21:36:11 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:36:24 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:39:15 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:39:23 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:40:41 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 21:40:43 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-153-96.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:49 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5DE8E225.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:43:34 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-156-119.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:45:39 what size are fixnums on 32bit SBCL 21:45:57 30 bits 21:46:16 Kryztof: cheers 21:46:24 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:46:40 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 21:47:18 -!- Gertm [~Gertm@dD5768144.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 21:50:12 -!- Algo [~Algo@unaffiliated/algorithmiccontr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:52:06 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:43 gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:52:48 mhi^ [~mhi@home.zedat.fu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 22:01:55 it feels a bit odd to be able to specify generic-function-class in the definition of a generic function, but not being allowed to extend the class standard-generic-function. is there sort of obvious workaround that i'm missing? 22:06:27 the bits of CLOS that were standardized were detached somewhat surgically from a greater whole 22:06:34 what you see is one of the scars. 22:06:50 implementations supporting the MOP will allow you to extend the class standard-generic-function 22:06:56 sbcl doesn't 22:07:07 I beg your pardon? 22:07:08 (also not when closer-mop is loaded) 22:07:17 but amop explicitly states it's part of the internals, so that's correct 22:08:01 * (defclass foo (standard-generic-function) () (:metaclass sb-mop:funcallable-standard-class)) 22:08:01 22:08:01 # 22:08:41 AMOP doesn't state it needs to belong to a different metaclass... 22:09:17 i tried (defclass parallel-generic-function (standard-generic-function) () (:documentation "blah")) ; finalized that and i got an error 22:09:51 well, don't do that. Funcallable standard-objects need to have a generalized instance of funcallable-standard-class as a metaclass 22:10:19 is that in all implementations that support closer-mop? 22:10:25 see also http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Metaobject-Protocol.html wherein I document extensively the rationale for this 22:10:30 I have no idea what closer-mop does 22:10:39 (other than "nothing" on sbcl) 22:11:24 how do you mean: closer-mop does nothing on sbcl, it only translates? 22:11:58 Kryztof: isn't that exactly what it does: provide a normalized package? 22:12:06 yeah, it's a package definition and a couple of utility functions. Or it was, last I looked, which was a long time ago 22:12:25 ehu: on other implementations it also alters behaviour, either by shadowing and reimplementing or by redefining internals (or both) 22:12:39 Kryztof: so it should -in most cases- be safe to assume that what sbcl says it does would work on other implementations if i use closer-mop? 22:13:03 madnificent: no, because closer-mop is unable to bring all other implementations into 100% compliance with its worldview 22:13:36 madnificent: though rudi is working hard to bring ABCL to compliance 22:13:38 would it be safe to assume that i'm within what closer-mop thinks the worldview should be? 22:13:45 ehu: yeah, i read about that :) 22:13:47 ehu: I was involved in a comp.lang.lisp discussion last week with Franz people about their MOP implementation of method calls 22:14:30 Kryztof: kudos btw, the error i received linked me to the exact page i needed in the sbcl manual (being also the one you returned) 22:14:36 s/returned/gave me/ 22:14:38 interesting. I don't read c.l.l. -- too much noise to the signal. 22:14:45 (theirs is broken; I think Pascal Costanza said closer-mop fixed it) 22:14:46 I'll try to find the article now. 22:15:01 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:02 madnificent: hey, someone used that feature! :-) 22:16:09 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:16:10 Kryztof: i love it! i often use the links to the clhs 22:16:13 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:16 \o/ 22:16:25 I think that might be the first time anyone has ever said that 22:16:47 alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-249.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:59 then they must all silently use (and love) it 22:17:02 Date: Thu May 27 16:06:40 2004 22:20:06 Kryztof: you're off about 7 years, but not that much has changed 22:20:14 thanks for the support Kryztof 22:20:25 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 22:20:29 that's when I implemented it... 22:20:36 have a nice evening 22:20:54 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:21:29 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 22:22:02 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 22:23:17 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:24:22 gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has joined #lisp 22:25:01 i have a flamer question, but it is not my intent to flame, i always thought lisp-1 is a cool approach in combination with a simple define macro that both defines variables and functions 22:25:07 but when i actually use it, i wonder, isn't it obvious that lisp-1 approach limits someone to use longer lexical variable names, -which is totally ok if your language ref is 50 pages, unless you start using libraries- 22:28:30 or maybe it wouldn't cause any problems as long as you don't try to reference the global binding of that symbol in that particular textual context 22:28:47 I' for one, am not afraid to shadow list in lisp-1s. 22:29:05 (define (frobnicate list) (reverse list)) 22:29:09 lnostdal [~lnostdal@149.62.178.226] has joined #lisp 22:30:14 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@149.62.178.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:31:42 sykopomp: i see, so if a function called in your function body (let's say "reverse" in this case) references global definition of list, there is no way it is effected by your lexical binding to "list", right? 22:33:22 nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:50 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:35:36 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:41:25 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-124.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:44:56 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:46:11 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-2-213.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 22:46:32 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:06 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 22:59:17 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:01:55 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bdsndoqdnlhyhkqg] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 23:02:20 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:05:34 AsmCoder8088 [~student@ip68-97-173-48.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:11 -!- dnolen [~user@ppp-70-249-145-33.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:06:31 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:44 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:07:00 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129013070.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:07:21 krake [~krake@p508595CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:39 diginet [~krfkeith@ppp-69-153-136-120.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:41 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:10 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 23:10:48 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:12:26 __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:11 rosario [~user@fsf/member/rosario] has joined #lisp 23:26:56 I'm not seeing the real difference between APPLY and FUNCALL. Is it that APPLY can accept a list as the arguments to the function and unpack them? Meaning, if you have 1 and 2 in a list, you have to use (apply #'+ '(1 2)) but if you have them seperately you just use (funcall #'+ 1 2) 23:28:52 yes. 23:29:02 moah: thank you. 23:29:19 just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. 23:29:27 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.233.208] has joined #lisp 23:29:41 apply can also take non-list arguments, as in (apply #'+ 1 2 3 '(4 5 6)) but the latest argument hast to be a list. 23:30:14 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:30:18 I see 23:30:20 there's also a logical&historical difference, I think... funcall can be considered a low-level detail, while APPLY comes from the origins of language, from math - "apply a function to data" 23:31:30 p_l: that's interesting. Thanks. 23:39:24 funcall will also tend to be faster 23:39:39 as it doesn't have to deconstruct the list 23:41:35 Phoodus: thanks! 23:41:36 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.233.208] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 23:42:12 drwho [~drwho@56-34-237-24.gci.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:37 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-103-224.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:48:38 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:49:20 RomyRomy [~stickycak@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-02.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:52:27 -!- daimrod [~daimrod@sbrk.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:54:24 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:55:44 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 23:57:09 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp