00:03:56 -!- Cosman246 [~user@D-173-250-189-240.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:04:17 -!- z4dch4 [~z4dch4@81.56.220.115] has quit [] 00:04:23 seems rather low-level, i don't know much like that. 00:05:15 Frozenlock: "Slitch" is a TCP stack for CMUCL, it might be interesting. 00:05:44 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [~gkeith@c-66-30-3-183.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:06:06 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:07:21 madnificent: thanks anyway 00:07:39 Xach: The files do not exist anymore apparently :( 00:07:59 ism_ [~frinnn@f053210030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:08:08 yw 00:08:21 toekutr` [~user@pe215.dvc.edu] has joined #lisp 00:09:40 cmbntr_ [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has joined #lisp 00:09:47 -!- cmbntr [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:09:47 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-6-171.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection 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#lisp 00:15:56 lacedaemon [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 00:16:11 -!- ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:16:17 -!- jrockway [jrockway@itchy.jrock.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:16:17 -!- rmathews [~roshan@59.92.17.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:16:17 -!- ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:16:19 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:16:19 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:16:19 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:16:24 -!- Tordek [tordek@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:16:24 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:16:29 Tordek [tordek@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has joined #lisp 00:16:36 ered [~ered@108.201.125.162] has joined #lisp 00:16:45 setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:46 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 00:16:55 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:19:13 ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:19:32 gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-pfbahgwrkrordofw] has joined #lisp 00:21:12 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD7EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:21:36 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-86.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:22:33 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:49 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 00:22:50 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-86.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:24:49 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-86.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:26:01 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-180-83.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:26:27 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 00:26:32 -!- Tordek [tordek@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:26:34 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-136-86.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26:37 Tordek [tordek@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has joined #lisp 00:26:53 icrazyhack [~horieyui@183.60.100.168] has joined #lisp 00:30:30 centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-164-159.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:01 lemoinem [~swoog@7-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:37 I have slitch 00:36:55 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-055-116.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:37:27 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:39:41 L3Gi0n4riUs [~sabayonus@187.65.176.79] has joined #lisp 00:40:32 lobo_d_b [~lobo@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 00:45:37 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:45:43 Frozenlock: https://github.com/sharplispers/slitch 00:47:31 thank you very much! 00:48:33 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@123.208.172.232] has quit [Quit: Bye] 00:49:38 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-180-83.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:49:38 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:49:51 Frozenlock: i don't know if it will be helpful to you in your specific case but it's interesting anyway 00:54:11 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:54:12 Indeed. As usual, I don't expect to have a working code before at least 3 dead ends :P 00:57:04 -!- rgrau_ [~user@125.Red-79-158-83.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:59:44 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:59:58 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:00:21 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:01:09 scoutcamper [scoutcampe@nasadmin/webteam/scoutcamper] has joined #lisp 01:01:17 -!- scoutcamper [scoutcampe@nasadmin/webteam/scoutcamper] has left #lisp 01:03:20 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:38 -!- L3Gi0n4riUs [~sabayonus@187.65.176.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:07:47 L3Gi0n4riUs [~sabayonus@187.65.176.79] has joined #lisp 01:09:09 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-17-226.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:19:26 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:29 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.152.6] has quit [Quit: rme] 01:20:47 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:21:46 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:12 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest33777 01:23:13 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:24:29 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:25:59 There's no reliable way to get the lambda-list of a function, is there? There's FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION, but reliable it is not. 01:27:20 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-136-86.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:28:31 That's correct. 01:28:52 However, you could (shadow 'defun) and (defmacro defun to do the book keeping yourself. See IBCL. 01:29:10 http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/ 01:29:51 hmm, adding a few lines of text and then calling C-x u in climacs throws me into the debugger..... 01:31:09 Then debug it! 01:33:45 http://picpaste.de/pics/Bildschirmfoto7-iF8RkBRu.13227368692.png 01:34:24 sellout: swank knows how to do it 01:34:43 -!- L3Gi0n4riUs [~sabayonus@187.65.176.79] has left #lisp 01:35:10 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:37:29 -!- vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-150-041.dsl.sil.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:39:24 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:39:25 pjb: That doesn't work for functions already defined (EG, in the CL package), though, does it? 01:41:09 looks like swank-backend:arglist is the swank implementation 01:42:19 Xach / Vivitron: Thanks, that's what I want. 01:42:33 sellout: Just use newLisp 01:42:37 *Kazinator* ducks under the table. 01:43:05 rme [~rme@50.43.152.6] has joined #lisp 01:45:08 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:16 sellout: yes. Just reload the implementation sources :-) 01:46:58 pjb: Heh, I was waiting for that  not as fun for something I want people to be able to just load via QL eventually. 01:47:23 Or load sacla or sicl, or ... 01:47:47 That said, it would be a nice implementation, one that can be reloaded from the source at run-time... 01:49:32 I had it on my mind -- I have a function that prints a package's external symbols with their docstrings and the arglist would be a nice addition. 01:50:02 -!- toekutr` [~user@pe215.dvc.edu] has left #lisp 01:50:17 -!- sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 01:50:47 Vivitron: (lspack :package t) already prints a package with its external symbols. 01:51:08 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-86.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:51:31 lspack is in https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blobs/master/common-lisp/interactive/interactive.lisp 01:52:57 It's self-promotion night in #lisp 01:53:35 I'm happy to take a look at pjb's stuff 01:53:37 Always. 01:53:56 I'm promoting freedom software (GPL). 01:54:59 But actually the idea is to promote the development of CL tools. Vivtron specifies a tools, I show him how I already implemented half of it, and thanks to the GPL, how he's free to implement the other half :-) 01:57:56 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-136-86.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:59:26 OMG priceless. 01:59:32 $ clisp -q 01:59:32 [1]> (gensym "check-my-dubs-") 01:59:32 #:|check-my-dubs-12655| 01:59:32 [2]> 02:00:06 should have used -> 02:01:04 -!- wanderingelf [4817e03b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.59] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:02:25 What does seem to surprise you? 02:03:55 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-pfbahgwrkrordofw] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:03:58 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-136-86.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:04:13 -!- Praise- is now known as Praise 02:09:31 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:05 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:22 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 02:16:19 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:17:36 -!- vairav [~vairav@209.49.23.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:18:12 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-106.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:18:54 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-106.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:19:39 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-86.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:20:14 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-136-86.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:21:49 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-134-106.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:22:41 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-106.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:25:23 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:30 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-174-201.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:25:33 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 02:28:51 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:29:53 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:04 kennyd_ [~kennyd@93-138-52-44.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 02:31:55 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-124-95.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:35:32 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 02:35:49 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 02:36:11 -!- kennyd_ [~kennyd@93-138-52-44.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:36:36 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Client Quit] 02:37:25 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 02:37:35 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-59-98.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 02:39:01 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 02:42:23 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483ABBE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:44 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483ACB5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:46:11 ism [~frinnn@f053212090.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 02:48:04 -!- ism_ [~frinnn@f053210030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:52:46 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.96.53.205] has quit [Quit: paul0] 02:53:10 Guest56018 [~sun@223.204.153.21] has joined #lisp 02:54:20 'hi 02:54:59 'lo 02:56:01 rus+thai+lisp) 02:56:24 en fr es lisp :-) 03:00:51 lisp is a 'miracle) 03:00:56 If you have an AList ( ("one" . "uno") ("two" . "dos") ("three" . "tres")) is there an easy way to make ASSOC work on the CDRs? For instance, to be able to do either (assoc "one") or (assoc "uno") and get the same cons back... 03:01:10 SurlyFrog: this is barely an a-list. 03:01:31 pjb: what do you mean? 03:02:00 -!- senj [~senj@S01060026f323bcdf.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 03:02:05 pjb: are you referring to the size? Because my wife assures me that size doesn't matter all that much.... 03:02:24 Well, I'm confusing with plist. plists must have values comparable with EQL, and for strings it means you must give as key the exact same string (not one that is just equal). 03:02:24 <_3b> is that RASSOC? 03:02:31 Yes, rassoc. 03:02:48 that's the one I was looking for. 03:02:50 thanks! 03:02:52 But since you have strings, you must pass the :test argument with another test than EQL. 03:03:13 (rassoc italian-word dictionary :test (function string-equal)) 03:04:08 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:04:14 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:04:29 -!- Joreji___ [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:04:34 -!- Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:08:45 -!- Guest56018 is now known as sunmix 03:12:01 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-134-106.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 03:12:04 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-106.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:14:00 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:14:29 dys``` [~andreas@krlh-4d02bc82.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:47 -!- dys`` [~andreas@krlh-5f7367ce.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:21:49 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:22:03 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:25:10 -!- kgadek [~Konrad@62.121.148.46] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:26:20 DataLinkDroid [~David@120.158.155.218] has joined #lisp 03:26:34 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bfxwfgxwttauhxuf] has joined #lisp 03:28:01 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-174-201.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:33 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-134-106.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:33:57 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-106.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:34:44 Demosthenes [~demo@mf62c36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:23 leo2007 [~leo@124.72.163.37] has joined #lisp 03:42:24 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:42:52 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:43:24 -!- Kazinator [~kaz@S0106687f7426d0eb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:45:35 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:40 ikki [~ikki@189.194.254.95] has joined #lisp 03:50:39 enticeing [~cm@74.194.112.188] has joined #lisp 03:53:31 -!- enticeing [~cm@74.194.112.188] has quit [Client Quit] 03:55:48 I wonder if anyone's still working on a "Lisp OS" project right now 03:57:11 -!- dys``` [~andreas@krlh-4d02bc82.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:00:00 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@7-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:00:21 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.160] has joined #lisp 04:01:49 mkrauss [~mkrauss@74-94-233-157-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:54 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:11:31 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.162.28] has joined #lisp 04:17:34 djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:18:08 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-17-226.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:53 Hi gigamonkey 04:22:55 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.194.254.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:30:13 Is Movitz still being developed? 04:31:09 i don't see any mailing list activity for over 12 months 04:34:09 Dang 04:34:54 According to the project page, they still need a garbage collector 04:37:19 i don't see mention of garbage collection 04:38:01 http://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/movitz.html 04:38:42 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@mf62c36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:39:04 old file? remove the "movitz.html" from the url 04:39:46 It's linked to from that page, though 04:39:59 ok 04:40:22 you're right 04:40:50 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-102-3.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:18 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:42:14 muerte is a terrible name. fulfilled prophecy? 04:42:54 Yeah 04:43:15 Hopefully, someone who knows compilers and x86 assembly better than I do will revive it 04:46:31 never know 04:46:40 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:46:45 i think it made some decent progress, by the looks of it 04:47:33 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:49:22 According to Wikipedia, it had a workable environment 04:49:33 It's just not complete 04:49:52 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 04:51:02 Hi Cosman246 04:52:00 Hopefully someone will take on the task 04:52:02 they were using allegro for some reason though 04:52:58 oh. 04:53:11 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 04:53:50 I wonder if someone's tried to put Emacs Lisp in Common Lisp 04:53:59 I know some have tried the other way around 04:56:59 you mean embedding CL into emacs and running emacs lisp in that? 05:00:56 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-164-159.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:01:44 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dvvnvnohenemyelc] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:02:26 DataLinkDroid: I mean *exactly* that 05:02:41 Take away the C backend and write a CL one there 05:02:47 Boom! One more tool 05:03:11 rms doesn't like CL so it won't happen without a fork... :-( 05:03:54 It can be an amiable fork 05:04:01 A spork, if you will 05:04:05 :-) 05:04:13 with everything the same except the backend 05:04:39 elisp might be too tightly integrated 05:05:17 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 05:06:09 -!- sunmix [~sun@223.204.153.21] has quit [Quit: Server buffer killed] 05:07:06 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.152.6] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:08:29 it would be great, though, to have a full CL emacs which is nevertheless capable of running all existing .el files... 05:08:56 Yup 05:09:01 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.213.38] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 05:13:16 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:13:37 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jjytxxzbzqryfpar] has joined #lisp 05:14:22 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 05:14:48 Do you know of any projects that are trying to do something similar? 05:14:51 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 05:15:27 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 05:15:40 no i don't know of any 05:15:45 i suspect there are none 05:16:16 -!- DataLinkDroid is now known as DataLinkAway 05:16:46 http://clocc.cvs.sourceforge.net/clocc/clocc/src/cllib/elisp.lisp?view=markup 05:17:18 sun [~sun@223.204.153.21] has joined #lisp 05:17:40 -!- sun is now known as Guest67190 05:17:42 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-ugqrgbcvittbzpbx] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:17:43 -!- Guest67190 is now known as sunmix 05:19:39 -!- Guest33777 is now known as X-Scale 05:19:47 Last updated 2008. 05:22:07 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 05:22:43 -!- DataLinkAway is now known as DataLinkDroid 05:23:17 Cosman246: interesting 05:27:29 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-troaaghxivduxncb] has joined #lisp 05:28:22 Does anyone here use McCLIM> 05:28:25 *? 05:29:03 * usually prefixes invalid forms. 05:29:23 s/>/?/ 05:29:47 Yeah 05:30:41 DataLinkDroid: remember that lisp is being developed since 1959. 12 months of reflection between two commits are nothing. 05:31:15 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:31:59 pjb, if you say so... :-) 05:32:33 i understand what you are saying of course 05:32:41 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 05:32:53 *hefner* used mcclim once or twice 05:33:41 Hmmm 05:34:14 -!- mkrauss [~mkrauss@74-94-233-157-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.1] 05:34:18 kami``` [~user@p57A2E0D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:05 *rtoym* used mcclim a few times too. 05:36:08 -!- ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:36:14 So I suppose a good idea would be to try and revive McCLIM 05:36:26 and a CL backend for El 05:36:38 s/El/Emacs Lisp/ 05:38:06 -!- kami`` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:38:33 it seems to me that using mcclim results in a UI that is fundamentally different from what the vast bulk of people expect these days... 05:38:39 just an observation 05:38:48 i could be wrong 05:40:20 At least get a working UI and enough applications to work with it 05:40:26 Maybe an NeXT-like GUI 05:40:37 (I know it's old, but it's beautiful) 05:40:38 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:43:30 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 05:43:57 ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 05:44:15 DataLinkDroid: t 05:44:49 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #lisp 05:45:10 -!- leo2007 [~leo@124.72.163.37] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.4.1] 05:45:12 DataLinkDroid: it's all abstracted away and kept separate but then trying to mix in behavour is difficult and error prone it seems 05:45:43 DataLinkDroid: since all those layers have to interact with eachother at times..... 05:47:14 wbooze: have you tried to do anything substantial in mcclim? 05:48:12 wbooze: nooo, i try to read the docs and the code and tried to superficially change some things like looks etc...and got a little forward and then stuck again 05:48:33 since the docs are all lacking parts.... 05:49:20 i only got as far as studying the docs in some detail. 05:49:26 the design seemed elegant 05:49:32 and i'm just beginning to grasp all the concepts.... 05:49:37 but i wondered about the practicality 05:50:03 either my docs are lacking parts or some of the tex tools is borken here 05:50:07 and I saw that all UI examples were basically weird when compared to the usual type of modern GUI 05:50:32 it requires tight programming..... 05:52:32 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:54:06 and having climacs.devel mailing list is good too 05:54:07 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-107.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:54:33 some things got clear that way 05:54:44 there's no clipper support yet for example 05:54:53 you can't copy from outside to clim apps 05:55:55 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:56:53 i assume that most features were exported to something like maybe lispworks ide or so don't know.... 05:57:30 -!- benny [~benny@i577A854B.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:57:37 and devel on clim got a stop ..... 05:58:14 must be something like that.... 06:00:58 yeah, you can 06:01:07 horieyui [horieyui@222.47.100.126] has joined #lisp 06:01:38 hold shift and drag with the left button to select text, select and middle button to paste (IIRC) 06:01:44 should work from outside apps 06:02:09 s/select/shift 06:02:24 -!- icrazyhack [~horieyui@183.60.100.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:02:29 hefner, that is X functionality, isn't it? 06:03:08 DataLinkDroid: no, the toolkit has to implement that interaction itself. 06:03:08 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:03:41 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:04:34 and mcclim interacts with external clipboards? not just on X? 06:05:07 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.109.106] has joined #lisp 06:05:46 no 06:05:50 not even on X 06:06:40 the presentation type stuff and view and records etc....get real messy ..... 06:07:03 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-18-2-15.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:07:10 that has nothing to do with it 06:07:59 well, yes functionality is restricted at the moment 06:08:04 of course, this is all a bit OT now... :-) 06:08:14 http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/mcclim.git/blob/HEAD:/Backends/CLX/port.lisp#l1333 06:11:59 can't you use X11's clipboard types to check when to pass sanitized data to clipboard? 06:12:08 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 06:13:11 hrmm, yep from clim to any other app it works but not vice versa 06:13:16 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@120.158.155.218] has quit [Quit: gotta go now] 06:13:21 ie. copying 06:15:34 uh 06:15:37 wait it does 06:16:35 wahahah 06:16:43 oh man 06:19:33 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:02 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:20:20 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:20:56 sacho [~sacho@95-42-95-248.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 06:21:04 at least with the middle-mouse-button copying from outside seems possible 06:21:21 shift + m-m-button 06:21:43 yeah, it doesn't do the c-c/c-v style copy and paste 06:22:08 well not even the C-y M-y style 06:22:33 only internally 06:23:27 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 06:23:37 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 06:24:23 and to my tastes too much mouse emphasized 06:25:32 when i say ,Show Directory +Enter i get a mask but can't switch between the cells via TAB 06:26:31 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.231.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:26:42 erm, the example was not good, show directory does just show one cell actualy not multiple ones 06:27:00 but nvm, the tab switching between or from/to cells does not work 06:27:20 you wouldn't want it to work too well, if there'd be nothing left to hack on 06:27:29 "..or there'd be nothing left", rather, 06:28:00 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.231.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 06:29:07 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:29:34 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 06:30:36 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:00 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-139-138.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:32:54 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 06:33:47 -!- Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:36:35 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:37:12 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:37:45 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 06:38:58 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:39:46 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 06:40:08 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:40:33 zmyrgel [~user@193.64.112.22] has joined #lisp 06:41:38 bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:41:38 -!- bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 06:43:38 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 06:45:33 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:47:50 does it do X selection? 06:48:27 erm what is X selection ? 06:48:53 shift selecting some text and then copy pasting via shif+m-m-button works 06:49:07 middle-mouse button pastes from Xsel 06:49:13 (not from clipboard) 06:49:22 without shift, that is 06:49:24 ah ok, yes it does then Xsel 06:49:48 no only with shift here 06:50:16 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:50:44 select/paste support is bolted on, not integrated as fully as it should be 06:51:35 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:52:14 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 06:52:36 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:59:01 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 06:59:42 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:04:47 vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:15 -!- CrazyEddy [~flammeous@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:10:59 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-107.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:11:16 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has joined #lisp 07:16:29 sun1 [~sun@223.204.153.21] has joined #lisp 07:16:48 -!- sun1 [~sun@223.204.153.21] has left #lisp 07:20:44 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 07:21:26 wildnux [~wildnux@pool-71-252-145-78.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:32 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:21:44 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:24:35 gensym [~user@2a00:5a80:ffff:1:52e5:49ff:fe27:95df] has joined #lisp 07:25:02 phao [phao@187.91.143.99] has joined #lisp 07:25:05 is there anything like readscheme, but for common lisp? 07:25:11 (I mean that website) 07:26:27 http://cliki.net 07:26:35 phao: we already gave you this url! 07:27:10 But that is not like readscheme... I looked there before asking here. 07:27:23 Yes, there are lists of tutorials, lists of books, etc. 07:27:49 phao: the answer is "no". 07:28:08 That is, if you don't accept cliki.net, yes, the answer is "no". 07:28:21 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.239] has joined #lisp 07:28:37 by "like readscheme", I meant with papers. 07:28:52 There are also pages referencing papers on cliki.net. 07:29:17 Ok. Sorry then, I didn't see that in the website when I looked. 07:30:20 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:30:21 osa1__ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 07:30:26 Have also a look at http://alu.org/ 07:30:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:30:37 -!- Xof [~crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:31:00 Xof [~crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:32:06 osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 07:32:06 -!- osa1__ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:32:46 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:33:18 thx. 07:34:50 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@pool-71-252-145-78.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:35:33 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.109.106] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:35:45 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.109.106] has joined #lisp 07:37:32 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-59.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:38:37 Kryztof: would you mind if swankr counts the SLDB level upwards from 1 instead of 0? 07:38:38 - newSldbState <- makeSldbState(c, if(is.null(sldbState)) 0 else sldbState$level+1, id) 07:38:38 + newSldbState <- makeSldbState(c, if(is.null(sldbState)) 1 else sldbState$level+1, id) 07:39:44 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.109.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:49:47 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 07:51:35 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:56:29 MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-4-81.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:45 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:58:43 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:59:42 Guthur` [~user@212.183.128.152] has joined #lisp 07:59:48 -!- Guthur` 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[kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:34:19 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:34:36 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:34:38 nostoi [~nostoi@107.Red-79-153-125.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:42 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:37:53 -!- jeekl_ is now known as jeekl 08:38:20 good day everyone 08:38:38 -!- hefner [~tehf@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:38:42 -!- Frozenlock [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:39:23 Frozenlock [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:14 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:41:14 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-134-106.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:42:51 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Remote host closed the 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#lisp 08:55:19 CrazyEddy [~subdivisi@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:57:47 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-102-3.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 09:02:52 wildnux [~wildnux@pool-71-252-145-78.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:21 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 09:06:01 Shrawny [~sean@ppp121-45-253-60.lns20.per2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:08 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:09:22 hello lispers 09:10:00 Hello Lisper! 09:10:29 time is a good counselor, I have to do a huge refactoring for kuma. 09:11:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:11:34 After that, I'll have things in human order, and ability to serve a limited number of connections, and other fun stuff 09:11:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.10.33] has joined #lisp 09:11:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.10.33] has quit [Changing host] 09:11:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:11:58 hello kiuma, pjb ;) 09:12:18 this have grown a bit wild recently :) 09:12:39 -!- galdor [galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:16:49 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:17:13 I love the way it's turning up, I love lisp too :) 09:21:44 -!- gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:22:36 -!- osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:22:45 osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 09:25:26 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 09:26:20 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-fidgsnnvjlarjhrw] has joined #lisp 09:26:59 -!- vairav [~vairav@c-98-207-170-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:27:04 -!- osa1_ [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:28:49 sykopomp 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acl2? 11:38:56 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@214-106-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is] has quit [Quit: Whee.] 11:41:54 sun [~user@223.204.153.21] has joined #lisp 11:42:33 -!- sun is now known as Guest75528 11:49:14 -!- Guest75528 [~user@223.204.153.21] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:49:24 Robot programmed with Common Lisp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtLK-655v7k 11:50:04 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:51:11 sun` [~user@223.204.153.21] has joined #lisp 11:51:35 -!- sun` [~user@223.204.153.21] has quit [Client Quit] 11:51:59 Odin- [~sbkhh@214-106-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is] has joined #lisp 11:52:31 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-230-160.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 11:54:36 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@175.40.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:54:38 -!- foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:55:01 foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:00:31 zanahorio [~hahehihoh@155.145.116.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 12:01:04 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:05:47 pjb: really cool, your work? 12:11:07 pjb: hi 12:11:25 madnificent: not at all. 12:11:30 Posterdati: Hi! 12:11:47 pjb: do you know acl2 ? 12:12:06 I booted it once or twice. I didn't have the time to read the doc yet. 12:12:18 pjb: is it you in the video? 12:12:19 angavrilov_ [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has joined #lisp 12:12:45 pjb: I'd like to test navigation software with acl2 12:13:15 acl2 can be used to PROVE your software. 12:13:22 tes 12:13:25 yes 12:13:33 to test correctness too 12:13:43 Posterdati: not at all. 12:13:50 Posterdati: proving is not testing. 12:14:12 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:18 Posterdati: if you have proven that your program is correct, there is no need to test it. 12:14:20 H4ns: but you can feed the program with patterns 12:15:07 H4ns: it would be fine to write the firmware with Lisp and then prove it... 12:15:15 Posterdati: as far as i understand, acl2 is a theorem prover. but i might be wrong. 12:15:38 Note however that the bug on DS1 RAX was found in a software that had been proved. 12:15:39 H4ns: AMD used it to prove their k7 12:16:24 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:16:31 please spare me. i know that proving software correctness is not a substitute for testing. but proving and testing are two very seperate and different things. 12:16:46 H4ns: if I understood right, one could describe a system with functions, then prove them using acl2 12:17:04 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:17:24 Posterdati: basically, yes. 12:17:32 the question is 12:18:05 Yes. software proving tools are often restricted, so we make a projection of the software to be proven to what the prover accepts, and prove only the projection. If the projection is correct, the proof should apply to the original software too. 12:18:13 ah 12:18:13 Proving is analytical, testing is empirical. That's about the difference, isn't it? 12:18:18 you anticipated me 12:18:23 So you take a lisp program, transform it so it runs on acl2, and let acl2 prove it correct. 12:18:38 *Odin-* would suspect that proving would be computationally intractable except in trivial cases. 12:18:42 But I could be wrong. 12:19:04 (That's if it's even possible in the general case.) 12:19:28 (Which it probably isn't. See: Halting problem.) 12:19:30 Odin-: i once implemented a microprocessor from a "proven correct" implementation. it did not work, because the proof was not proving that the garbage collection mechanism in the cpu actually worked. 12:19:44 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:19:50 pjb: the robot in your video is a far advanced shrdlu 12:20:03 H4ns: Ah. Yeah, then there's the issue of exactly what is being proven. 12:20:10 H4ns: ah 12:20:17 Yes :-) 12:20:34 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.193.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:20:34 H4ns: You're maintaining ediware at github, right? 12:20:46 Odin-: correct. and in most cases, it is not feasible to capture the requirements so that a theorem prover can be applied to them. 12:20:50 Odin-: correct. 12:20:54 H4ns: was the micropocessor designed with vhdl? 12:21:18 pjb: your robot hit a chair :) 12:21:36 Posterdati: it was originally described as as cad image, but i reimplemented it in vhdl using the original datapath architecture and microcode. 12:21:46 It's not mine. It was posted on redit. 12:21:55 H4ns: so what was wrong? 12:21:56 proofs can have bugs too. 12:22:19 Posterdati: the garbage collector and the recursive application operation did not work, in the microcode. 12:22:35 H4ns: did you prove them? 12:22:51 Posterdati: no, i just fixed them using testing :) 12:22:56 :) 12:22:56 H4ns: I found something a bit ... strange with Drakma as compared with Hunchentoot. Both of them have a utility function url-encode, but Hunchentoot exports it while Drakma doesn't. Seems to me like you'd be at least as likely to use that in a client as a server... 12:23:01 H4ns: very smart! 12:23:14 H4ns: design microprocessors is not easy 12:23:29 Posterdati: it was a great experience to discover that the microcode actually implemented a mark&sweep garbage collector and then finding out how it failed. 12:23:34 Posterdati: i did not design it 12:23:43 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-238.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 12:23:50 H4ns: ah ok 12:24:11 Odin-: i'd say send me a pull request, but then, that'd probably annoy people who import both hunchentoot and drakma 12:24:56 Kron__ [~Kron@129-97-120-238.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 12:25:05 Kron_: Gabriel Kron? 12:25:24 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@129-97-120-238.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 12:25:28 That might be the reason it is that way. Still a bit weird IMO. 12:26:12 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:26:29 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 12:26:30 Odin-: drakma automatically urlencodes GET parameters, so there is little reason for users to call it themselves. 12:26:44 True. 12:26:54 Don't remember the circumstances I encountered it in. 12:27:15 Some web service oddity, probably. 12:27:30 Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-238.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 12:28:02 -!- Kron is now known as Guest98480 12:28:16 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=WfNuiRrV9Aw&NR=1 12:28:34 photovoltaic is safe 12:28:44 Posterdati: please don't post un-annotated off-topic links. 12:28:53 uh ok 12:28:53 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-238.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:28:55 sorry 12:29:01 -!- Guest98480 is now known as Kron_ 12:29:45 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:30:38 -!- Shrawny [~sean@ppp121-45-253-60.lns20.per2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:35:35 dnolen [~user@12.130.123.157] has joined #lisp 12:36:28 SunSapient [~user@49.48.230.238] has joined #lisp 12:36:49 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-fidgsnnvjlarjhrw] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:37:40 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-wugrpnqugqxavpcz] has joined #lisp 12:39:05 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 12:40:05 rmathews [~roshan@59.92.21.87] has joined #lisp 12:40:21 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-wugrpnqugqxavpcz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:40:36 SunSapie` [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 12:41:24 -!- SunSapie` [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Client Quit] 12:41:34 -!- SunSapient [~user@49.48.230.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:41:44 -!- austinh [~austin@c-24-21-49-222.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:42:09 -!- Ghoti_ [4c1b035d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.27.3.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:42:11 austinh [~austin@c-24-21-49-222.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:28 -!- ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:42:41 ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:17 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:44:03 Shrawny [~sean@ppp121-45-239-200.lns20.per1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:07 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-llfgwdannfyylxpk] has joined #lisp 12:45:09 -!- kami``` is now known as kami` 12:45:55 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:45:57 splittist__ [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has joined #lisp 12:45:59 H4ns: you've worked on the pair programming thing. if you ever need to do it again, you may be interested in using the obby protocol to connect gobby and emacs instances together. you can instantly share buffers and work on them with multiple people. it alleviates the need for sharing the actual editor and keyboard. 12:46:13 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:46:55 madnificent: i'd probably be using tmux next time, but thanks! 12:47:17 madnificent: (if i had a pair partner that groks emacs, that is) 12:47:33 -!- splittist_ [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:47:44 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 12:48:54 -!- Shrawny [~sean@ppp121-45-239-200.lns20.per1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:51:20 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:53:52 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:08 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8178B5.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:55:09 pnq1 [~nick@ACA26953.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:56:35 saint_cypher [~rjspotter@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:41 bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:59:09 ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:59:19 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-llfgwdannfyylxpk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:00:10 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ahrtmsngzmzyjiqt] has joined #lisp 13:00:40 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:01:02 Shrawny [~sean@ppp121-45-230-87.lns20.per1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:11 archangelpetro [~petro@ip-87-86-36-83.easynet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:02:55 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-230-160.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:03:00 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:03:09 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:01 how is this function to read a file to a stirng? http://paste.lisp.org/display/127276 I couldn't find better way to join #\Newline's between lines, so I just added #\Newline after each line and then remove last #\Newline 13:05:13 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:05:24 -!- wgl [~wgl@209.242.26.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:05:30 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 13:05:37 osa1: read-sequence, file-length 13:06:19 osa1: the way you do it is very inefficient. for one, you're creating two copies of every line, for another, you're reading line wise for no apparent reason. 13:06:40 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-230-160.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 13:06:56 osa1: forget about file-length, though. :) 13:07:18 *H4ns* always forgets that it is either incorrect or inefficient with non-ascii files. 13:07:48 sacho [~sacho@95-42-95-248.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 13:08:13 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 13:09:58 H4ns: I have to know length of the file before using read-sequence, right? 13:10:10 osa1: you can read block wise. 13:11:20 osa1: read-sequence returns the number of characters read. 13:12:24 osa1: you can also use alexandria:read-file-into-string if you want to write other code. 13:13:16 H4ns: yeah that's just what I need, thanks. 13:14:16 (with-open-file (file path) (let ((result (make-array (file-length file) :element-type 'character))) (read-sequence result) result)) 13:14:33 pjb: consider utf-8 13:14:44 btw, I'm trying to write a kind of template parser/renderer and I think reading from a stream instead of string could be better 13:15:10 H4ns: file-length returns the number of characters. 13:15:12 since user can easily convert a string to stream with (make-string-input-stream) 13:15:18 You may also use com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:text-file-contents if you prefer GPL. 13:15:38 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:15:55 pjb: file-length needs to read the whole file if it is utf-8 encoded to determine the number of characters. that is why it cannot be recommended for efficient reading of text files. 13:15:58 osa1: yes, moreover reading from a stream you still can read from a string (with-input-from-string (stream string) (parse stream)) 13:16:02 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:16:18 H4ns: not necessarily, the number of characters could be in the meta-data. 13:16:29 H4ns: (it's not CL's fault if unix file systems are lame). 13:16:43 pjb: you are most helpful again 13:17:13 pjb: what file systems store that information in meta data? i mean, real ones? 13:18:36 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@149.62.178.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:18:48 H4ns: Good ones! :-) 13:19:18 If you use com.informatimago.os.lisp.fs.pjbfs3 for all your files you will have full metadata. 13:19:24 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:19:32 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 13:19:37 Of course it is not compatible with the external (aka lame) world 13:19:37 pjb, H4ns: nearly every fs does, if you restrict yourself to ASCII or any other 8bit encoding 13:19:48 That said, you can use file-length on (unsigned-byte 8) stream, and reopen it as a character stream: you get an over estimation of the length. 13:19:48 flip214: no, really! 13:20:01 *H4ns* cries 13:20:05 flip214: utf-8 is 8-bit encoding, right? 13:20:11 Xach: file systems don't need to be compatible with anything. 13:20:22 jdz: no, it's variable bytes encoding. 13:20:26 jdz: Of course I meant constant-length 8bit encodings. 13:20:37 jdz: some characters are 1 byte, some 2 bytes, ... some up to 6 bytes. 13:21:07 oh, you mean 8 bits per character encoding 13:21:21 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:21:23 Yes. utf-8 is an 8-bit encoding, in contrast with utf-7 which is a 7 bit encoding. 13:21:35 pjb: Neither do people. 13:22:07 How is ext4 compatible with HFS+? 13:22:52 On HFS+, there is in the meta data the date when an item is added to a directory. 13:23:50 btw, isn't ASCII a 7-bit encoding? 13:23:56 Yes, it is. 13:24:09 US-ASCII, as it's often named nowadays. 13:24:31 US-American? 13:24:46 that's funny 13:25:04 rme [~rme@50.43.152.6] has joined #lisp 13:25:24 As opposed to mexico-american. 13:25:28 jdz: that's because they made other versions of ascii,where some useless characters such as `{|}, etc are replaced with accented letters etc. 13:25:31 awake1162 [~s@cpe-76-171-199-3.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:26:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII#Variants 13:26:46 heh @ useless characters 13:27:05 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 13:27:06 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 13:27:08 The IRC protocol treats those useless characters specially for case-insensitive equivalence purposes. 13:28:30 That's because it was invented by finns. 13:30:12 how much do you know, where can i learn? any suggestion? 13:31:05 awake1162: internets know it all 13:32:52 dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 13:39:05 changeofheart [3cf03857@gateway/web/freenode/ip.60.240.56.87] has joined #lisp 13:39:38 Could anyone help me with beginners question about Let statement :) ? 13:40:08 changeofheart: just ask the question, don't ask to ask 13:40:20 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:09 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:41:14 How do i have more than one expression in my let statement 13:41:44 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:42:05 wait i think i answered it myself... 13:42:49 just put them there (let ((x 1)) (format t "foo") (format t "baa")), theres implicit progn surrounding forms 13:43:21 changeofheart: these kind of questions are easily answered in hyperspec 13:43:53 changeofheart: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm 13:45:15 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 13:48:43 scrimohsin [62f62fb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.246.47.184] has joined #lisp 13:48:58 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:50:04 -!- zmyrgel [~user@193.64.112.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:50:07 Thanks for your help :) 13:50:13 -!- changeofheart [3cf03857@gateway/web/freenode/ip.60.240.56.87] has quit [] 13:50:15 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 13:50:52 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has left #lisp 13:53:08 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:53:18 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:53:59 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:56:09 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:58:25 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 13:59:02 _schulte_ [~eschulte@173-12-202-43-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:13 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:33 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:00:25 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 14:00:59 -!- djanatyn [~djanatyn@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:01:05 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 14:03:34 vervic [~vervic@e213-246.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:03:51 -!- vervic [~vervic@e213-246.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Client Quit] 14:04:03 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05:07 djanatyn [~djanatyn@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 14:07:44 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 14:07:49 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-169-14-16.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:08:23 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Client Quit] 14:08:43 yoklov [~yoklov@137.99.226.226] has joined #lisp 14:09:23 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:13:28 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 14:13:46 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Client Quit] 14:15:10 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@173-12-202-43-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:15:20 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 14:15:50 Xach: ping 14:16:48 -!- pnq1 [~nick@ACA26953.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:17:04 Hi jjkola_work 14:18:40 what does quicklisp do in the case that you have same library both installed through quicklisp and as a local project and you do a dist upgrade? does it upgrade the quicklisp one? 14:19:35 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 14:19:56 JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 14:21:01 I'm just wondering as I have some local changes which I want to keep until they are available through quicklisp but I still want the quicklisp ones to upgrade to latest one so that I can use those when the time comes 14:21:21 or in case I want to check something 14:22:01 jjkola_work: for loading, it will load the local one and ignore the quicklisp one. for updates, it will update the quicklisp one and ignore the local one. 14:22:19 ok, thanks 14:22:26 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:22:34 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 14:24:53 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.231.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:25:13 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-249.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:26:02 chenbing [~user@115.192.195.133] has joined #lisp 14:26:42 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:27:25 Blkt` [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:27:44 -!- Blkt` [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:28:41 centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-164-159.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:15 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:30:48 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 14:33:24 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.152.6] has quit [Quit: rme] 14:33:44 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 14:35:56 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:36:35 -!- Joreji___ [~thomas@u-0-036.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:36:36 -!- Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-036.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:36:36 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-036.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:36:56 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 14:37:21 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:13 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-230-160.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:38:39 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-053.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:38:40 Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-053.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:38:44 Joreji___ [~thomas@u-0-053.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:38:59 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Client Quit] 14:39:33 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 14:39:36 Joreji__1 [~thomas@u-0-053.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:39:50 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Client Quit] 14:39:55 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-036.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:40:38 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:41:10 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:41:27 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 14:41:27 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 14:42:21 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:43:49 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 14:43:59 Are interned symbols GC'ed if there are no references to them other than the symbol table? In other words, is the symbol table references to the symbols "weak"? 14:44:08 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:50 loke: there is no "symbol table" 14:45:02 loke: I don't think so. 14:45:04 loke: there are packages, and packages refer to symbols. 14:45:20 Good Morning All. I was wondering if there are any automated tools to run over Lisp code and evaluate your code for "functional-ness". Meaning, is your code using any destructive operators. 14:45:32 Yeah, but are the packages references to symbols weak? In other words, if a symbol is unbound, can the symbol be CG'ed? 14:45:52 Actually, if all the destructive operators were listed someplace, what I'm thinking of is a basic grep 'the list' my-files. 14:46:00 In particular, I'm asking about the KEYWORD symbols. 14:46:26 SurlyFrog: this channel is about Common Lisp, which does not pretend to be very "pure" (in side effects sense) 14:46:42 CL has no notion of weak reference 14:46:51 loke: all symbols in keyword package are bound (to themselves) 14:47:18 My issue is because CL-JSON maps the key in a key-value-pair to a keyword, and the data comes from the browser. So, if keywords are not GC'ed, there is an opporitunity for a DoS attack by flooding the keyword package. 14:47:18 Surly: The simplest way would be to write a pureCL to CL compiler 14:47:27 jdz: sure, what got me thinking about it was Graham's OnLisp in Chapter 3 on Functional Programming. He mentions a bunch of operators that you should be treated as if they "have a tax." 14:47:33 rme [~rme@50.43.152.6] has joined #lisp 14:47:44 loke: yes, that does sound like trouble. 14:48:02 benny [~benny@i577A71B4.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:48:11 That made sense to me, so I was wondering if anyone ever took that anyplace and made a tool out of it. 14:48:13 Xach: however, if unreferenced keywords are GC'ed, there would be no trouble... 14:48:20 SurlyFrog: Paul Graham does not like Common Lisp very much and if a tax is a good idea, a good tax for CL might differ from the taxes Paul Graham would suggest. 14:48:26 loke: if you don't trust your input, then make sure cl-jason does not intern any symbols 14:48:35 loke: I think it is a problem. 14:48:46 Xach: ohI never knew that about Graham. 14:48:50 loke: that sounds like a cl-json issue 14:48:52 jdz: but it does, and it will, unless I modify CL-JSON to use string keys instead of keywords... 14:48:56 -!- kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:49:16 TimKack [~user@c-2ec2288d-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 14:49:27 Frozenlo` [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:30 -!- toddpratt [~toddpratt@c-98-216-182-111.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 14:49:34 loke: you can customise cl-jason to not intern any symbols (by providing a function which transforms json string to whatever datum you want; the default one interns in keyword package) 14:49:47 SurlyFrog: e.g. https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/990f5de07517629c 14:49:52 jdz: really? I have to look into that. 14:50:06 "It's Lisp I like, not CL. I think CL is pretty ugly and always have." 14:50:06 That's awesome 14:50:35 loke: look for *json-identifier-name-to-lisp* & friends 14:51:10 do _any_ symbols get collected? 14:51:14 -!- Frozenlock [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:51:20 Xach: thanks for the link 14:51:24 jdz: thanks a lot. You're a life-saver :-) 14:51:50 a trivial check in sbcl would imply they don't 14:51:55 -!- TimKack [~user@c-2ec2288d-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:26 oGMo: uninterned symbols might be collected, if they are not referenced. 14:52:44 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-197-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:53:38 loke: there's another json library that does not intern any symbols by default; it should be in quicklisp. 14:53:41 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-134-106.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:53:49 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-238.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:53:59 jdz: Yeah, I looked at it. It was a lot more cumbersome to use though. 14:54:32 Default SBCL chokes after I intern about 3.4 million keywords... 14:54:33 loke: modify the one you like? 14:54:55 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-106.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:55:13 loke: probably st-json. and the author has a point re. false vs. nil 14:55:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:56:08 st-json is by Marijn "Postmodern" Haverbeke 14:56:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:56:56 jdz: with CL-JSON implementing a mapping from whatever to a JS false is trivial 14:57:14 ST-JSON maps structures to hash maps I believe? 14:57:32 loke: if you're happy with cl-json, then by all means, just go on and use it. 14:58:36 jdz: Well, I'm not saying that I'm entirely happy. It's just that my code is somewhat comitted to it. :-) However, given the fact that I access fields using plentu of (CAR (ASSOC ...)) which I have to change anyway because of the interning issue above, I might as well look into alternatives. 15:01:46 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:02:03 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 15:05:28 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-103-224.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:06:55 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:07:26 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 15:07:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 15:08:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:13:56 mikecsh [~mikecsh@n219079215236.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 15:20:38 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 15:20:58 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:25:34 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:30:16 antgreen [~user@70.50.65.59] has joined #lisp 15:31:16 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@n219079215236.netvigator.com] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 15:35:44 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:36:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:37:12 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:14 osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has joined #lisp 15:39:48 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.169.6.142] has joined #lisp 15:39:48 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.169.6.142] has quit [Changing host] 15:39:48 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 15:40:23 phao [phao@189.98.147.4] has joined #lisp 15:40:34 -!- phao [phao@189.98.147.4] has left #lisp 15:41:46 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:43:05 -!- zanahorio [~hahehihoh@155.145.116.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: Chao] 15:45:01 -!- splittist__ [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:45:23 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@137.99.226.226] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 15:45:28 splittist_ [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has joined #lisp 15:45:42 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0/20120118081945]] 15:46:10 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:46:24 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 15:47:05 -!- bsamograd [~user@184.71.240.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:47:40 -!- dnolen [~user@12.130.123.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:48:46 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-399673.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:51:24 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.189.172.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:52:03 yoklov [~yoklov@67.221.70.111] has joined #lisp 15:53:45 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:23 -!- m0prl [~clarkema@31-222-178-169.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:02:18 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@67.221.70.111] has quit [Quit: bye!] 16:03:16 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-174-201.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:13 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 16:09:41 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:11:20 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:13:06 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:13:18 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:39 tritchey: herep 16:13:53 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 16:14:09 gigamonkey: hello? 16:14:40 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ahrtmsngzmzyjiqt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:15:42 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:21 you tweeted something at me this morning that I didn't get the context of 16:17:32 (Assuming you're tritchey on twitter) 16:17:54 oh - sorry - just a line from the Going to Bed Book 16:18:08 Ah. 16:18:18 The wife-unit and I got a kick out of your Boynton re-tweet 16:18:42 I'm not sure I've actually read that particular one. 16:19:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:19:46 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:20:40 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128189057.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 16:20:49 my response was 11 hours later as well, so I wasn't too quick on the draw. 16:20:53 -!- Shrawny [~sean@ppp121-45-230-87.lns20.per1.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:21:55 excercise would help release some energy so they don't grind their teeth, no? 16:22:42 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:24:26 felideon: easier just to give them a shot of whiskey. 16:24:33 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 16:25:11 Hi all. 16:25:26 have a question about conditions and such 16:25:39 the hunchentoot taskmaster class has a method called handle-incoming-connection 16:26:00 I'm specifically looking at the one-thread-per-connection-taskmaster specialization 16:26:22 in it, it creates a bordeau-thread and if there's an error, handles the condition by logging it. 16:26:39 sergiolps [~sergiolps@187.111.80.196] has joined #lisp 16:26:42 gigamonkey: I knew there was some good parenting tips to be tapped into in #lisp. 16:26:50 however, it would seem that's all it does: it does not resignal. 16:27:56 (my main problem is that if for some reason the process starts starving of resources, and the threads can't get created anymore, I just become deaf and mute inside: nothing comes to my code because the task master essentially just drops every incoming connection) 16:28:28 I was going to :around the method, but I'm not sure if that'd do me any good because the error is already being handled in the method and not re-raised. 16:28:37 does anyone have any idea what I could do? 16:28:56 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:29:00 (my goal would be to signal a reaper that this process needs recycling because it's reached a dead-end) 16:34:55 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:37:22 bsamograd [~user@184.71.240.90] has joined #lisp 16:38:21 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.255.70] has joined #lisp 16:41:05 -!- bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:44:30 -!- gensym [~user@2a00:5a80:ffff:1:52e5:49ff:fe27:95df] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:07 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 16:46:09 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-238.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:47:23 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:27 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 16:49:42 JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 16:50:11 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:50:39 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 16:51:17 Shugen [~quassel@ycl38-1-82-225-51-195.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:02 -!- foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:57:38 is there any resource about continuations, except the on-lisp one ? 16:58:09 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:58:32 there are two continuation libraries at least, in QL even 16:59:38 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:00:26 p_l, what would you suggest? 17:00:50 no idea, for some reason continuations always confuse me 17:00:52 honestly, I've found continuations in user code to be a net negative for maintainability 17:01:16 I, in general, get what they are about most of the time, but I never got into using them other than cargo culting from example code 17:01:45 if you're going to use them (or CPS), it's best for implementing a system that lets you ignore the fact that you're passing continuations 17:01:51 and then use that 17:01:56 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.48.251] has joined #lisp 17:02:22 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 17:02:22 well, they were a little too explicit in the frameworks that used them for me 17:02:30 and CPS-based web didn't do it for me 17:02:45 (and that was main use I had with CPS) 17:02:59 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:04:18 *sykopomp* had a telnet server that used cl-cont fairly transparently, with some great results. 17:04:56 p_l, the reason for my question is that: in my event based http server... what can I do if I have to do an heavy calculation to render the page 17:06:33 kiuma: dump it into separate thread/coroutine and have it return when it's done? 17:07:13 my current design for an app we have removes all long-running sync requests 17:07:17 -!- sureaint [~mortimer@65-86-91-130.client.dsl.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 17:09:34 it's an option and the one I was thinking about, but I'd like to avoid thread creation in favour of thread queue. Maybe it's time to add gorwing capabilities to my thread queue 17:09:44 is there still no Twisted/node.js equivalent for CL? Is the consensus that such a thing is undesirable? 17:10:21 sykopomp: iolib has event-driven I/O code, iirc 17:10:41 yes, I'm using it that way 17:10:51 yeah, but does it have the relatively simple API? 17:10:58 kiuma: coroutines? and build MxN threading with them, kinda the way Erlang does? 17:11:38 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:11:45 p_l: aren't coroutines cooperative? 17:11:46 sykopomp: IIRC the API wasn't very complex, but I haven't used it - most of my networking code so far either used Hunchentoot or Drakma, and thus was bonded to usocket, or (currently) uses 0MQ 17:11:57 MxN ? I lack corurines definition 17:11:58 it depends on how you want to use continuations, but I think that the approach sketched in has merits for IO-bound uses. 17:12:38 kiuma: M lightweight threads running in N real threads. 17:12:47 kiuma: basically, your interruptible computations would include the "break" points to suspend and return to scheduler, then you run them on top of multiple threads 17:13:02 so you have the ability to create many lightweight threads/processes while still taking advantage of threading for SMP 17:15:18 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 17:15:22 Greetings lispers 17:15:32 -!- bohl [~bohl@dslb-088-070-077-249.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:15:56 I'll think about it this evenening :) 17:16:47 bye 17:17:33 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 17:17:48 chenbing` [~user@115.192.195.133] has joined #lisp 17:17:59 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 17:18:44 -!- horieyui [horieyui@222.47.100.126] has quit [Quit: http://www.cnblogs.com/crazyhack] 17:18:56 dagda [~dagda_@np34.co.returnpath.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:15 -!- dagda [~dagda_@np34.co.returnpath.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:19:59 -!- chenbing [~user@115.192.195.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:20:36 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 17:21:58 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:23:08 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:07 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:24:16 m0prl [~clarkema@31-222-178-169.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:25:04 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:08 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:26:08 -!- jrockway_ [jrockway@itchy.jrock.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:26:35 jrockway [jrockway@itchy.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 17:26:57 -!- Shugen [~quassel@ycl38-1-82-225-51-195.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:27:01 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:04 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-208-240.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 17:30:26 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:30:37 rootzlevel [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 17:31:05 -!- Tordek [tordek@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:33:04 -!- awake1162 [~s@cpe-76-171-199-3.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 17:33:53 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:27 fAz4 [~amir@95.38.52.65] has joined #lisp 17:34:54 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-scvhsvnpjhikjrgh] has joined #lisp 17:36:17 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:00 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:37:37 lnostdal [~lnostdal@149.62.178.226] has joined #lisp 17:37:51 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 17:37:59 -!- archangelpetro [~petro@ip-87-86-36-83.easynet.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:38:08 What with the new dialects appearing, I wonder if we're in what GLS and RPG call in "Evolution of Lisp" a period of diversification 17:38:09 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:39:33 Cosman246: Are you thinking of any dialects other than CL, SCheme, and clojure? 17:41:13 ThomasH: Arc and NewLisp come to mind as recently started dialects 17:41:38 I know I might be talking a bit too often on this subject, but it's troubling m 17:41:39 *me 17:42:14 Has there been any recent activity with Arc? It shouldn't trouble you. 17:42:24 ergh newlisp 17:42:48 The dialects themselves don't trouble me 17:43:01 The fact that they're appearing does, partially 17:43:18 -!- splittist_ [d417faa6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.23.250.166] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:43:40 Cosman246: So... you're an authoritarian at heart? ;-) 17:43:54 RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:44:18 (I myself don't have a particularly favorable view of Clojure, as I see it right now, it has *gratuitous* incompatibility with CL and is a bit too attached to the JVM right now. Once it's implemented in itself, or in C, or in CL, maybe I can look at it by itself) 17:44:32 ThomasH: Only if I'm in control >:) 17:44:34 somehow the beginning of this discussion struck me as giving extra large ham philosophy into the topic... 17:45:09 Of course, this is assuming that "The Evolution of Lisp" is correct 17:45:32 Cosman246: Of course! 17:45:37 davlap [~davlap@c-24-147-211-14.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:33 Otherwise, the creation of new dialects wouldn't bother me. 17:46:36 *eMBee* is less troubled by new lisp dialects then he would be by dialects of other languages mostly because it has been suggested that writing a lisp implementation is a good way to learn lisp. 17:46:46 so people are meant to come up with new dialects ... 17:47:02 ... and then throw them away ... 17:47:04 Well, yes, but tout them as "the future of lisp" 17:47:17 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-399673.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:47:38 shurane [~mortimer@65-86-91-130.client.dsl.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:02 I mean, I myself have my own document as to what I would find optimal, but... 17:48:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:48:29 (I am a simple student right now; I haven't learned enough about compilers or interpreters yet to actually implement it) 17:48:38 doesn't matter because of the above attitude i'd expect most lisp users to not be surprised and not be easely swayed 17:49:20 Yeah, but many n00bs could be swayed 17:49:49 -!- newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:50:05 I have to go soon, but http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html 17:50:08 -!- foom2 is now known as foom 17:50:13 well, technically, some of the code I wrote rather explicitly didn't :use :cl :) 17:50:42 Cosman246: earlier you discussed emacs written in CL, isn't that hemlock? 17:50:51 eMBee: I wish. 17:51:00 If it were, I'd be using hemlock right now to chat here 17:51:11 did you look at it? 17:51:13 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.20] has joined #lisp 17:51:20 *eMBee* has no idea 17:51:26 I have looked at it 17:51:27 just wondering 17:51:34 eMBee: climacs 17:51:36 Hemlock is just an editor 17:51:40 Climacs is a bit worse 17:51:53 What would be optimal would be to implement el in cl 17:51:55 I never said it was good. 17:51:59 oh, maybe i mixed them up 17:52:00 and replace the c backend with a cl backend 17:52:12 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-399651.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:52:16 Cosman246: "implement el in cl" that has been done. 17:52:25 ThomasH: where? 17:52:28 Cosman246: There is a version of hemlock floating around with just that. 17:52:36 phemlock? I think. 17:53:37 Hm, I'll have to look at the elisp emulation in that 17:53:43 back lisp dialects: one of the nice sideeffects of having many lisp dialects is that CL really stands out whereas all the other dialects each only have a small share, even if taken together they may add up to a not insignificant portion 17:53:58 if you get what i am saying 17:54:02 I understand 17:54:36 However, I think that CL needs a good package (editor, libraries, etc.) not unlike the Lispboxen in order to attract n00bs 17:54:45 Cosman246: Yes, it's phemlock, CLiki it, liberate the source from CVS, update it, and reap the fame and glory. 17:54:48 and turn them into wizards 17:55:15 We need a bot specifically for this discussion considering how often it arises. 17:55:17 That's another reason why I hope we have some standard libraries 17:55:42 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-238.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:56:06 The Lisp Curse: "Lisp is so powerful that problems which are technical issues in other programming languages are social issues in Lisp." 17:56:08 hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:14 We need to think about those effects. 17:57:13 Who is "we"? 17:57:36 A large amorphous group of lispers 17:57:41 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.255.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:57:49 Is that a fat joke? 17:58:23 just start writing code, and don't stop until you have something that works for general usage (ie is sufficiently complete) 17:58:28 Cosman246: How long have you been using Lisp? I find that the only people who keep harping about these sorts of things are the people who only recently discovered Lisp. 17:58:33 Everyone else is busy hacking. 17:58:47 Cosman246: what makes you think that attracting n00bs is such a good thing ? 17:58:56 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 17:59:20 austinh: about a year 17:59:34 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:59:40 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-238.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 18:00:06 Cosman246: Keep hacking for a couple more and you won't care so much about Lisp's "problems". 18:00:12 there is quicklisp and a lot of projects that solve hard problems, what else do you need 18:00:37 solve real problems, not perceived philosophical ones 18:00:54 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 18:01:03 Cosman246: If you want an editor implemented in CL, update phemlock or get LispWorks. 18:01:03 I see 18:01:06 Thank you 18:01:19 ..or write one, editors are easy 18:01:32 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has left #lisp 18:02:08 I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but for Mac OS X users anyway, I don't know how much easier I can make it than downloading CCL from the Mac App Store. 18:02:10 or climacs 18:02:31 rme: Indeed, I wish I were on Mac so I could use it. 18:02:52 ThomasH: CCL runs nicely on other platforms. 18:02:59 ChibaPet: Not the IDE 18:03:09 Oh, I've never used that part. Good point. Sorry. 18:03:31 rme: how much love does the CCL IDE get from you guys? 18:04:00 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 18:04:29 I must go noe 18:04:36 s/noe/now/ 18:04:58 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.109.106] has joined #lisp 18:05:15 To be honest, sometims other (paying) work taking priority. On the other hand, it's currently pretty stable, and the chances are very good that an upcoming project will see it improve substantially. 18:06:58 jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 18:07:28 When I look at it, I see a lot of warts. But when I talk to other people who use it, they like it, and say that it's fine. Do sausage-makers eat their own product? 18:08:19 rme: LispWorks provides the source for the editor so you can hack on it. It's definitely not an advertisement for the internals. Even the comments are critical. 18:09:19 -!- Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:09:19 emacs isn't exactly wart-free 18:09:28 vairav [~vairav@209.49.23.82] has joined #lisp 18:10:49 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:11:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:12:13 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:19 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-17-226.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:14:43 katrinam13 [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:35 -!- fAz4 [~amir@95.38.52.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:19:49 ZabaQ [~Zaba@85-132-136-40-static.vivo.cz] has joined #lisp 18:21:05 -!- Joreji__1 [~thomas@u-0-053.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:21:22 -!- Joreji___ [~thomas@u-0-053.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:21:39 -!- Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-053.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:21:49 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-053.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:23:58 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:24:47 osa1 [~sinan@31.140.8.177] has joined #lisp 18:25:12 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-95-248.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:26:05 sacho [~sacho@95-42-95-248.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 18:26:25 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-95-248.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:27:40 wildnux [~wildnux@pool-71-252-145-78.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:54 dnolen [~user@ppp-70-249-145-33.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:16 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 18:33:03 robde [~robde@p5790317C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:03 -!- robde [~robde@p5790317C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:33:29 -!- vantage|work [~chatzilla@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 9.0.1/20111220165912]] 18:34:21 bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 18:35:15 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:35:52 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 18:36:04 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:36:24 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 18:37:58 fAz4 [~amir@95.38.52.65] has joined #lisp 18:38:15 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.231.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 18:41:07 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:42:55 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-001-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:37 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: Zzzz] 18:43:57 -!- jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:44:26 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has joined #lisp 18:48:04 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-001-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:52:28 oGMo: oh, how I wish it were 18:52:36 Personally I feel emacs is worth the investment in time to really get familiar with it and elisp 18:52:47 one person's wart is another person's beauty mark 18:53:58 I wish there was a SLIME like environment for development though 18:54:20 IELM is quite a sub par REPL in comparison 18:54:42 Guthur: well, luke often said that he worked on slime to bring it up to par with elisp facilities. so i think it may be a matter of familiarity. 18:55:09 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@pool-71-252-145-78.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:55:20 I think he cited edebug and other stuff. I'm not that familiar with what emacs offers in the elisp development toolbox. 18:55:21 Xach: quite possibly 18:55:56 hehe, neither am I obviously, I haven't used edebug 18:56:15 I am quite a relative noob at elisp 18:56:38 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:19 So maybe your wish will come true just by reading. 18:58:41 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:00:58 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 19:01:15 the 2 features I really wanted was, showing the function signature, and M-. like functionality 19:01:55 Mmm  is current SBCL HEAD compiling cleanly for anyone? I get corrupt fasl file: losing FOP 19:01:58 s/was/were 19:02:33 -!- katrinam13 [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 19:03:38 Guthur: I fake M-. with (define-key emacs-lisp-mode-map (kbd "M-.") 'describe-function)  which takes me to the docs, and has a link to the source. Probably a way to get it directly, but that was quick-and-dirty. 19:04:31 Guthur: showing the signature is eldoc-mode, i believe, or autodoc-mode. 19:05:57 sellout: reasonable enough solution, I may do the same 19:06:06 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:28 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 19:06:39 H4ns: Who's Jose? :( 19:06:56 -!- bsamograd [~user@184.71.240.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:06:56 unbelievable, with eldoc, all is well now, cheers Xach 19:07:10 umm one too many commas there 19:08:21 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 19:08:59 -!- fAz4 [~amir@95.38.52.65] has left #lisp 19:09:53 -!- Frozenlo` [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:10:24 Frozenlo` [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:55 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@149.62.178.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:11:18 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@149.62.178.226] has joined #lisp 19:12:14 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:17:39 -!- vairav [~vairav@209.49.23.82] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:18:36 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:21:33 Believe it! 19:22:48 urk 19:23:54 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@147.210.71.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:26:13 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:28:00 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28:14 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 19:29:46 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-238.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:29:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-59.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:34 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:32:37 -!- angavrilov_ [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:33:33 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:36:12 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.231.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:36:29 Guthur: check out elisp-slime-nav for M-. 19:36:30 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p57AD7CC1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:40 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.231.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:05 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-197-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:40:32 galdor: Any reason you don't add a finalizer to your message wrappers in lisp-zmq? 19:41:00 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@85-132-136-40-static.vivo.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:42:05 I'm finally starting to port to lisp-zmq from a cl-zmq fork, and that seems to be the only thing I would need to seriously consider in the process. 19:42:19 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.231.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:43:53 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:44:10 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 19:44:22 Oh, I guess they're just directly foreign messages. 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[~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has joined #lisp 20:10:19 Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.213.38] has joined #lisp 20:10:41 sshirokov: how does lisp-zmq get away with out finalizers? 20:10:50 is it leaving it up to the programmer 20:10:57 It appears that it's messages are just raw foreign pointers 20:11:03 So yes, up to the programmer to clean up 20:11:18 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:40 Which is hard to argue with, considering what's being wrapped 20:11:44 -!- sergiolps [~sergiolps@187.111.80.196] has quit [Quit: sergiolps] 20:12:24 vantage|home [~vantage@77.61-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:12:28 the finalizers can be costly 20:13:00 So would wrapping every message 20:13:17 I found the latency test on my binding the finalizer was taking up a more and insignificant amount of time 20:13:28 and/than 20:13:33 Also a zmq binding? 20:13:52 yeah, it doesn't rain but it pours 20:14:23 the only thing remaining to be implemented is the polling 20:14:40 Care if I ask why another binding? 20:14:45 I implemented something but it end up being LOOP of polling interfaces, if you know what I mean 20:14:55 ended* 20:15:37 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:15:46 I had a different idea on how on the API should look compared to cl-z,q 20:15:50 cl-zmq* 20:16:06 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 20:16:21 it uses a few more CLOS features 20:16:40 and dynamic dispatch 20:17:22 it's targeting 3.x solely, as well 20:17:55 Neat stuff :O 20:18:00 Is it public somewhere to admire? 20:18:10 sshirokov: not yet, will be 20:18:26 Let me know when it is, I'm interested in taking a look 20:18:29 the polling interface has held me back 20:18:52 I'm trying it out on a personal project as well, to give it a bit of a test 20:18:53 Guthur: why 3.x? 20:19:02 *p_l* finds 3.x to be a little broken for now 20:19:14 yeah I just found a bug recently 20:19:18 it needs a 0mq equivalent of GLUT 20:19:20 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 20:19:23 router -> dealer is broke 20:19:34 Guthur: and no devices 20:19:53 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-197-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:19:55 p_l: the devices from 2.x are trivial, you could implement them easy 20:19:57 also, I disliked the LABEL flag 20:20:09 Each devices I've ever used in 2.x I ended up replacing with the long-form version 20:20:25 They're somewhat pointless, IMO 20:20:28 the opinion for a long time has been the devices should not have been part of the core lib 20:21:00 easier [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 20:21:03 p_l: 3.x is definitely in quite a bit of flux at the moment 20:21:06 Guthur: I agree with moving them out, but IMHO it should have been done in different way 20:21:09 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-197-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:21:23 I figured that by the time I had got the binding polished 3.x would be nearer to stable 20:21:31 -!- easier [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:31 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:35 and I dislike LABEL flag on parts because I consider it to be also something for the upper layer to handle 20:21:43 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 20:21:56 p_l: have you voiced your concerns 20:22:08 might be worth speaking up 20:22:52 I was considering offering the devices as a contrib package to the binding, possibly with other ones, if I can think of any 20:23:07 Guthur: just got into it, so far I'm keeping to 2.1 20:23:40 IMHO it would be fine to have LABEL flag if it was passed straight to user 20:23:47 not something magic 20:24:03 I'm treating 0MQ a little like L5 MPLS 20:24:38 now is the time to influence the development 20:25:13 Guthur: now is the time I got a big project running on 0MQ, so I'm keeping to 2.1 :) 20:25:15 once it's stabilised it will be more difficult to affect changes 20:25:24 sure 20:25:37 I might try to influence the developement by using what I'm writing, though 20:25:42 I would certainly not recommend 3.x for a big production project 20:25:57 so far I'm happy with cl-zmq approach, but I don't have latency problems 20:26:41 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:57 I've used cl-zmq and it is certainly fine in many respects 20:27:03 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 20:27:36 though it is incorrect in some regards, the error constants are not correct last time I checked 20:28:17 anyway, until I put up a public repo not much point talking of the direction I went 20:28:19 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-197-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: no reason] 20:29:02 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Client Quit] 20:29:58 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-197-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:31:35 SunSapie` [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 20:32:45 miql [~miql@ip98-165-228-225.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:01 -!- SunSapie` [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Client Quit] 20:33:20 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-197-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:34:07 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-197-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:34:39 -!- miql [~miql@ip98-165-228-225.ph.ph.cox.net] has left #lisp 20:35:42 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 20:35:55 SunSapie` [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 20:36:23 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:36:42 hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD7EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:50 -!- SunSapie` [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Client Quit] 20:37:03 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:38:24 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:38:27 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-197-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:38:32 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 20:38:42 SunSapie` [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 20:38:52 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-197-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:39:44 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:54 -!- SunSapie` [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Client Quit] 20:40:23 jdz [~jdz@host62-110-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:40:45 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 20:44:04 -!- sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 20:44:22 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:55 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:45:07 take a look at lisp-zmq 20:45:17 the original author of cl-zmq went MIA 20:45:27 galdor did a rewrite 20:45:27 ^^ 20:46:20 SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 20:46:24 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 20:46:31 SunSapie` [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 20:46:39 Though, in the original author's defense, he didn't quite MIA out but more quietly resigned 20:47:07 I have a pretty big project based on cl-zmq, which I'll be porting to galdor's rewrite 20:47:26 *sshirokov* is doing that RIGHT NOW 20:47:35 sshirokov: yeah, but the effect of difficulty getting patches into the mainline is the same. :) 20:47:50 -!- SunSapie` [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Client Quit] 20:47:57 You're talking to a guy with a fork and a zmq/patches.lisp file :O 20:48:20 yeah, I believe I forked your github fork. 20:48:40 at some point my stuff got merged into galdor's cl-zmq tree, but I dunno if it ever went upstream. 20:48:40 Sorry for the sorry state of it :( 20:48:42 SunSapie` [~user@223.205.70.115] has joined #lisp 20:49:00 The upstream author didn't want to accept patches when I spoke to him 20:49:13 I am disappoint. 20:49:20 -!- SunSapie` [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Client Quit] 20:49:24 anyhow, the rewrite looks super promising. 20:49:31 *sshirokov* nods 20:49:46 I'm just dealing with the lack of CLOS-wrapped zmq messages with finalizers 20:49:48 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-197-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:49:55 Other than that it seems largely pain-free 20:50:11 (re: cl-zmq vs lisp-zmq) 20:50:12 -!- SunSapient [~user@223.205.70.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:12 *nod* 20:50:30 well, galdor has always been open to reasonable enhancements/fixes. :) 20:50:37 in my experience. 20:50:41 *sshirokov* nods 20:50:45 He's pleasant to work with 20:50:48 aye 20:52:12 oh man, why does input-not-of-expected-type or input-not-of-required-type error an non restartable condition in beirc ? 20:52:18 *Xach* is a version behind! 20:52:55 i sometimes forget to put a # or ## before channel names and that freezes all of it 20:53:04 Shugen [~quassel@ycl38-1-82-225-51-195.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:24 -!- rgrau_ [~user@125.Red-79-158-83.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:53:42 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 20:54:12 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 20:54:26 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Client Quit] 20:54:36 -!- brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:54:53 Hmm, I can't get lisp-zmq 1.1.0 to build at all and I'm not sure why. 20:55:37 :/ 20:55:53 *Xach* tries harder 20:56:51 cpc26 [cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 20:57:26 gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has joined #lisp 20:57:27 debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-ERROR in thread #: Unknown Grovel syntax: CFFI-GROVEL::BITFIELD 20:57:30 ? 20:57:46 Xach: It says it needs the git version of CFFI 20:57:56 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:01 ahh 20:58:05 For "the bitfield patch" 20:58:14 Thanks. That helps. 20:58:30 *Xach* reverts to 1.0.0 20:58:59 is 1.0.0 in QL? O_o 20:59:43 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 21:00:08 Guess not 21:00:15 -!- sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 21:00:54 Hmm, I thought it was. 21:00:58 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-197-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:01:35 nope, you're right. 21:02:44 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-208-240.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:58 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:57 brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:05:44 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.109.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:06:01 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:07:20 senj [~senj@S01060026f323bcdf.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:35 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:13:49 -!- cpc26 [cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:51 -!- osa1 [~sinan@31.140.8.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:24 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p57AD7CC1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:19:53 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:20:23 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 21:21:37 osa1 [~sinan@88.243.98.71] has joined #lisp 21:21:42 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:32 is there an equivalent of being able to dispatch on a boolean, ie t or nil 21:26:46 boolean is not a class, 21:27:01 Kazinator [~kaz@S0106687f7426d0eb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:38 Guthur: an EQL specializer 21:29:14 fe[nl]ix: can I have two EQL 21:29:21 or do i need to defmethod twice 21:30:10 oh nvm got iot 21:30:38 fe[nl]ix: cheers 21:31:55 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 21:34:04 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@modemcable037.54-22-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:34:22 -!- foom [jknight@nat/google/x-dyhqensvtphmgsiy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:34:38 foom [jknight@nat/google/x-vbypbwoqpemvtjcc] has joined #lisp 21:37:33 -!- mathrick__ is now known as mathrick- 21:38:11 lony [~lony@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 21:38:36 -!- lony [~lony@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #lisp 21:40:25 Shaftoe [~Moe111@modemcable037.54-22-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:41:23 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:41:50 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 21:47:20 rgrau_ [~user@68.Red-83-42-24.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:40 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:50:24 rgrau_` [~user@156.Red-79-154-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:04 -!- rgrau_ [~user@68.Red-83-42-24.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:53:34 DataLinkDroid [~David@123.208.241.41] has joined #lisp 21:54:38 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:59:04 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:59:04 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-124-079.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:19 umm nope I hadn't actually figured it out, the nil was just ignored 21:59:23 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 21:59:31 rgrau_`` [~user@186.Red-83-37-130.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:46 I had tried (defmethod foo ((val (eql (or t nil))))...) 21:59:49 bit no go 22:00:02 it actually just defines (eql t) 22:01:04 -!- rgrau_` [~user@156.Red-79-154-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:02:19 i suppose i has to be two separate definitions, appears to read that way in the spec at least 22:04:29 Guthur: (or t nil) gets evaluated 22:05:26 sellout: yeah, that was the bit of the spec which made me think it wasn't going to work 22:06:02 lony [~lony@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 22:06:26 Guthur: ((val boolean))? 22:06:47 oh nm 22:06:47 sykopomp: strangely boolean is not a class 22:07:01 -!- lony [~lony@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 22:07:03 I had assumed that would work in the beginning 22:07:11 *sykopomp* reads the scrollback. :\ 22:07:26 no provs 22:07:27 probs* 22:09:47 Guthur: what solution did you end up with? 22:10:57 sykopomp: I think i'm just going to have a nil and t version, I'm not too worried, these are setters generated via a macro expansion 22:11:24 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:12:33 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@123.208.241.41] has quit [Quit: Bye] 22:12:37 actually on reflection I do not need dyn 22:12:55 ...dynamic dispatch more specific that t here 22:13:07 rgrau_``` [~user@156.Red-79-154-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:44 -!- rgrau_`` [~user@186.Red-83-37-130.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:15:22 -!- osa1 [~sinan@88.243.98.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:16:08 I wanted it for the some, and I can just leave the rest as t 22:22:37 is declare type of the value in setf methods not allowed? 22:23:50 I get: unrecognized declaration (TYPE (VECTOR (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8)) VALUE) 22:24:16 it's warning 22:24:36 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.193.184] has joined #lisp 22:27:39 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:29:52 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 22:31:02 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:04 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD7EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:32:26 -!- jdz [~jdz@host62-110-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:33:07 -!- elliottcable is now known as efc` 22:36:11 -!- sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 22:39:09 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:57 -!- efc` is now known as elli 22:40:00 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.247] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:41:10 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:41:38 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jjytxxzbzqryfpar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:44 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.58] has joined #lisp 22:41:52 sepuku [~sepuku@83.212.47.66] has joined #lisp 22:43:02 -!- rgrau_``` is now known as rgrau_ 22:43:49 Ok, so the spec is not entirely clear on this... A compound type specifier is considered to be a declaration identifier, is it?... (despite what the glossary entry for "declaration identifier" says (it only talks about symbols naming a type, with respect to type specifiers)). 22:45:45 -!- niko [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:46:02 Hexstream: if we are talking about the issue I posted a both, it might be worth noting that the exact same declaration was acceptable of a normal method 22:46:17 s/a both/above 22:46:28 Guthur: Entirely unrelated. 22:46:36 Eatime. 22:47:02 niko [~niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has joined #lisp 22:47:19 djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:47:52 -!- Frozenlo` [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:48:38 -!- sepuku [~sepuku@83.212.47.66] has left #lisp 22:55:13 -!- elli is now known as ecececececececec 22:56:44 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.231.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:56:44 -!- ecececececececec is now known as elliottcable 22:57:56 Back. 23:03:40 Ok, seriously... I nominate abbreviated TYPE declarations as the single worst feature of CL, based on the usefulness/complexity ratio. It has little to no usefulness, and makes correct interpretation of declarations unduly environment-dependent, as well as introducing some inconsistencies in the spec. :( 23:04:20 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5081C204.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:05:21 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:05:55 jakky [jakk@motherfucking.ddosking.org] has joined #lisp 23:06:03 (And if you think I'm just idly complaining, think again, because I'm making a library that will make things a bit better in that respect, but there will still be some residual complexity left still...) 23:07:00 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:07:38 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:10:38 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:11:53 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:13:00 I hate them too, but just because I don't like reading them. 23:14:52 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bdsndoqdnlhyhkqg] has joined #lisp 23:17:27 foom: They're also problematic for correct interpretation of declarations, which affects, most notably, the correct triaging of them and putting them in the right places. Considering that type declarations are some of the most important ones to put in the right places, that's tragic. 23:18:19 Consider that given no prior knowledge of whether the symbol FOO denotes a type or a declaration identifier, you can't know if you're in the presence of a FOO type declaration or a FOO declaration... 23:22:30 [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 23:24:35 Fortunately that's less of a problem for compound type specifiers and standard atomic types. But for non-standard atomic types you can't reliably decide if you're faced with a type specifier or a declaration identifier without implementation-specific assistance... Though in the absence of knowledge you can take the bet that it's a type specifier, since there are way more of those than declaration identifiers... 23:25:47 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:27:08 -!- shurane [~mortimer@65-86-91-130.client.dsl.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:27:50 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-399651.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:00 donigan [~donigan@69-92-2-116.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:14 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:28:33 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@77.61-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 23:29:29 orivej [~orivej@ppp91-79-235-17.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:31:49 -!- Joreji___ [~thomas@u-0-022.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:32:12 asynchrony [~user@adsl-98-65-190-50.dab.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:23 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-022.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:32:23 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-022.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:32:56 -!- Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-022.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:33:29 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-013.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:33:53 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: [ Close the World, Open the nExt ]] 23:34:15 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-013.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:34:20 Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-013.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:34:24 Joreji___ [~thomas@u-0-013.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:35:00 DataLinkDroid [~David@120.158.173.85] has joined #lisp 23:36:00 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 23:37:27 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-013.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:37:33 -!- Joreji___ [~thomas@u-0-013.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:37:54 -!- Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-013.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:39:04 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-013.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:40:59 -!- elliottcable [~me@ell.io] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:41:05 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-124-079.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 23:41:37 elliottcable [~me@ell.io] has joined #lisp 23:43:47 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:46:55 -!- Shugen [~quassel@ycl38-1-82-225-51-195.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:52:38 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d19ae.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:31 -!- asynchrony [~user@adsl-98-65-190-50.dab.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55:56 TashBear [~da_tash@unaffiliated/el-tash/x-7763973] has joined #lisp 23:57:04 Hum. Is it kosher for some specialized SETF functions to return a value other than the exact new value that was specified? One possibility would be for canonicalization purposes (ex: (setf (foo) '#:bar) => "bar"). Also, right now I'm making something like (setf (policy) :error) where the policy might actually be set to NIL in this case if it can't be honored for some reason... 23:58:16 Basically I'm wondering if I might break some assumptions, particularly compiler assumptions.