00:04:15 -!- vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:31 vervic [~vervic@p237-143.vps.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 00:13:36 is there a library that provides #L reader that iterate used to define unconditionally? 00:14:00 Now it has it wrapped in (compile-toplevel execute), so its not available un runtime 00:16:17 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:17:46 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:21:52 Guthur: sorry for the late response: at the right price, i think it has a lot of potential though. that would effectively make the raspberry pi a replacement for the arduino boards 00:24:24 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.124.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:26:22 madnificent: yep, but I'd imagine the specs will be available so it's possible you could put it together easy enough 00:26:42 but a plug and go option might be beneficial all round 00:26:45 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.138.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:26:55 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:27:03 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:34 Gert said that you should have at least some soldering experience to get it up, but that was of the previous revision (the one he showcased on youtube), the gertboard is still continuously evolving. at least, it seems so 00:27:59 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 00:28:53 Blkt [~user@82.84.176.4] has joined #lisp 00:30:04 -!- silver [~kingrat@178.121.98.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:30:14 *maxm--* has absolutely no clue what you two are talking about 00:30:25 maxm--: raspberry pi 00:30:50 feeling dinosauric here, I had barely mastered using android phone :-) 00:30:55 I'd rather get a raspberry tau 00:30:59 :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D 00:31:41 *maxm--* always liked an analogy that human brain is like a kettle, with information being poured into it 00:31:47 -!- centipedefarmer_ [~centipede@75-162-52-240.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:32:01 what's a kettle? 00:32:14 up until around 30 years old, people say "wow you have amazing memory" because kettle is not yet full.. Once you hit 30, and kettle is full, the extra water simply spills over the top, with very little mixing 00:32:34 its the think you boil water for tea in? ok I must have gotten a wrong word 00:32:46 oh, I see. 00:32:59 maxm--: kettle is correct 00:34:27 maxm--: it's rather our mental models becoming more rigid 00:34:38 maxm--: and older people letting them set 00:35:04 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 00:37:35 -!- Guest20821 [~root@li129-64.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:41:01 -------- 00:41:39 ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.138.222] has joined #lisp 00:42:18 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.232.148.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:42:31 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:53 Guest20821 [~root@li129-64.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 00:44:46 pjb: you drawing a line under that conversation 00:45:05 Just to separate the before the line from the after the line. 00:45:19 It's a separation line. 00:45:34 well, at least no one crossed it 00:46:11 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129130065.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:53:50 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-174-106.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:55:55 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-248-14.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:56:17 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-248-14.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:56:57 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:57:30 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:59:18 djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 01:01:15 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:03:19 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.138.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:03:50 ddp_ [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 01:04:46 -!- homie` 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[jakk@motherfucking.ddosking.org] has joined #lisp 02:48:49 -!- jakky [jakk@motherfucking.ddosking.org] has left #lisp 02:49:47 Guest74081 [~Excalibur@h25.195.40.162.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:41 hello all I am new to lisp and I was wondering where would be a good website or book(preferably ebook) that I can go to to learn 02:52:29 there are many 02:52:38 well, not so many actually 02:52:46 start with touretszkys 02:53:00 Guest74081: http://cliki.net gives all the pointers. 02:53:02 "a gentle intro to common-lisp" or so 02:53:08 There are lists of books, lists of tutorials, etc.c 02:53:45 any books ebooks? 02:53:53 then grahams onlisp and then ansi-common-lisp then paips book 02:53:57 No. Most of those books are either html or pdf. 02:54:15 then land-of-lisp or let-over-lambda.... 02:54:37 and get a copy of clhs or cltl2 02:54:41 Guest74081: go for practical common lisp 02:54:44 or both maybe... 02:54:51 http://gigamonkeys.com/book 02:54:51 and yep pcl 02:55:19 Guest74081: *after* that one, you can consider PAIP (not ebook and can be pricy, though) 02:55:25 there's another one successfull-lisp from dlamkins 02:55:58 Guest74081: Also, download a copy of CLHS from Lispworks and use it as first stop when unsure. It has examples and details 02:56:05 and maybe have a look in the common-lisp cookbook or google for it 02:56:28 and Xachs lisptips.com 02:57:02 well you got now many pointers 02:57:22 ebooks is another format ? 02:57:41 it's not like pdf or what ? 02:57:45 Nowadays, when you hear ebooks, you hear $$$ and DRM. 02:57:55 wbooze: ebook - any form of electronic availability 02:58:11 better buy something like ipad or so and read pdfs there.... 02:58:23 ah ok then 03:00:04 Today I found the first iPad app that can manage directories and subdirectories for large collections of PDF. Not entirely practical on the iTunes side toload them, but it's manageable: PDF Reader Pro. 03:00:39 weh, they can't manage dirs ? 03:00:46 Most of the others no. 03:01:12 So when you have a lot of PDFs (like tens of gigabytes), you spend your time scrolling the single list... 03:01:40 no, don't scroll 03:01:43 use find or so 03:02:06 when you know what you are searching for say for lisp* category 03:03:02 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:17 i'm grepping mostly in the names for patterns either or find files named like say a regex 03:03:35 and mostly find the interesting ones that way 03:06:49 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:08:52 Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.213.38] has joined #lisp 03:10:39 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@69.166.23.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:11:26 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.42.114.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:23:07 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.135.246] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:29:26 -!- davazp [~user@89.100.226.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:34:32 http://picpaste.de/pics/Bildschirmfoto6-3ibIRDSh.1327203225.png got the pixels 03:49:31 dys` [~andreas@krlh-5f737653.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:24 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-174-106.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:51:26 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-174-106.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:53:23 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f713487.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:56:46 -!- zophy [~zophy@host-5-150-220-24.midco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:58:39 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:58:54 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:00 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:00:39 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.88.154] has joined #lisp 04:07:38 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:17:39 lisp doesn't have a compiler? 04:20:05 -!- dys` is now known as dys 04:21:25 Guest74081: it's more like the other way around - most implementations are incremental compilers (or have such mode - all default to at least bytecode compilation, I think) 04:23:20 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-174-106.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:24:02 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:24:05 momo-reina [~user@d46.AaichiFL32.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:24:56 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 04:26:35 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-174-106.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:28:21 -!- momo-reina [~user@d46.AaichiFL32.vectant.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:33:43 p_l|brage what do you mean by that? 04:35:34 Guest74081: most Lisp's can take a single function and compile it into machine code. 04:35:56 Some do that exclusively. Some mix such compiled code with interpreted code. 04:36:52 However Lisp programs are not as often compiled as a whole thing into a single executable file that you just run though many Lisp implemenatations provide a more or less satisfactory way to do that. 04:37:07 If you use SBCL see Xach's Buildapp for an easy way. 04:43:23 Guest74081: clhs COMPILE clhs COMPILE-FILE 04:44:28 Guest74081: clhs X means lookup X in the Hyperspec, at http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm (using the Symbol Index). 04:44:30 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:44:41 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 04:44:46 Guest74081: once upon a time, we had a bot here doing that for you... 04:45:51 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-65-151.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:55:09 -!- BlankVer1e [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:00:08 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left #lisp 09:04:45 silver [~kingrat@178.121.98.35] has joined #lisp 09:04:53 jjkola [~jjkola@87-93-164-3.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:06:44 Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:58 mishoo [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has joined #lisp 09:28:01 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:48 ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.138.222] has joined #lisp 09:33:36 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.138.222] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:34:09 sylecn [~sylecn@207.7.149.31] has joined #lisp 09:40:47 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-124-079.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:04 -!- karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 09:50:53 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:2420:ea0:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:57:21 *jjkola* found fixing cxml-stp easy compared to other ones, just needed to fix some test cases (:invert readtable case) 09:57:59 hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD7EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:40 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:05:55 -!- flip215 is now known as flip214 10:18:20 -!- rmathews [~roshan@59.92.50.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:19:01 *jjkola* thinks cxml was the hardest one to correct because it was passing keywords as values and at least in xml parser there was keywords passed with three different ways (:key :KEY and :|key|) 10:20:29 add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-5-100.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:22:35 rmathews [~roshan@59.92.72.255] has joined #lisp 10:26:13 karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:26:44 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:28:57 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-36-20.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:30:02 ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 10:34:58 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:35 Blkt [~user@82.84.176.4] has joined #lisp 10:41:03 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-36-20.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:50:31 -!- leo2007 [~leo@124.72.163.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:51:12 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 10:52:09 : 74.115.254.14_does_not_like_recipient./Remote_host_said:_550_Unknown_user/Giving_up_on_74.115.254.14./ <-- what does this mean? 10:52:49 does it mean that it didn't like my address? 10:53:37 s/my address/my email address/ 10:54:18 It's actually plexippus-xpath-devel 10:54:30 I tried sending a patch to plexippus-devel after subscribing to it 10:54:41 oh 10:55:56 then http://common-lisp.net/project/plexippus-xpath/ has wrong address for bug reports as I used it verbatim 10:57:37 -!- dsp_ [~tt@lebesgue.cowpig.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:58:15 leo2007 [~leo@124.72.163.37] has joined #lisp 10:58:17 dsp_ [~tt@lebesgue.cowpig.ca] has joined #lisp 10:58:22 -!- dsp_ [~tt@lebesgue.cowpig.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:58:40 jjkola: the link is actually correct. I don't know what's going on here. 10:59:45 pkhuong: oh, I didn't realize that it was pointing to mail address I just copied the text on the browser... 11:00:48 silly me 11:03:17 dsp_ [~tt@lebesgue.cowpig.ca] has joined #lisp 11:04:24 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.193.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:11:22 daniel_ [~daniel@p50829B88.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:35 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082A692.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:12:37 vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 11:13:19 -!- vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has quit [Client Quit] 11:15:58 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:18:12 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:19:34 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 11:21:42 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:21:54 is there a way to tell Slime not to print ^M at the end of each format line? 11:22:18 i.e. explicitly tell it I'm using Windows 11:22:30 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 11:29:35 add a hook to functions setting up buffers? 11:31:02 -!- rmathews [~roshan@59.92.72.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:34:35 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-189600.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:36:59 silenius [~silenius@i59F738D4.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:41:53 kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-182-240.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:43:51 Xach: hi. 11:48:28 -!- kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-182-240.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:49:09 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@139.158.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:49:34 Kvaks [~kvaks@139.158.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 11:51:04 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-384996.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:53:35 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:55:49 pnq1 [~nick@AC812C33.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 11:56:08 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2E99E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:56:32 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:58:35 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 11:58:37 nonduality [~nondualit@chello084114039189.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 12:00:29 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:01:06 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 12:02:36 -!- nonduality [~nondualit@chello084114039189.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:03:59 nonduality [~nondualit@chello084114039189.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 12:04:36 Guthur [~user@host86-150-22-39.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:06:32 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:06:39 hi 12:07:19 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:07:47 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 12:13:36 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-040.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:13:38 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-040.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:13:38 Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-040.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:13:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-210.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:14:13 -!- nonduality [~nondualit@chello084114039189.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [] 12:14:31 -!- silver [~kingrat@178.121.98.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:16:19 silver [~kingrat@178.121.98.35] has joined #lisp 12:18:45 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-180-024.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:03 -!- Adrinael_ [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:41:11 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:43:01 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 12:45:15 -!- pnq1 [~nick@AC812C33.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:46:36 pnq [~nick@AC812C33.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:47:20 moah [~gnu@dslb-092-073-069-205.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:18 -!- silver [~kingrat@178.121.98.35] has left #lisp 12:49:39 -!- silenius [~silenius@i59F738D4.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:49:49 karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:50:04 hey, does anybody know what happened to abhishek reddys website? 12:51:10 -!- karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:52:40 moah: yeah, I do :) 12:53:46 rmathews [~roshan@59.92.93.122] has joined #lisp 12:54:24 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:57:00 MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-74-252.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:34 moah: it went down a few months ago when my PC failed during an abortive server migration. I've been too busy with other work since then to restore everything, until very recently 12:58:08 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: [ Close the World, Open the nExt ]] 12:58:29 EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 13:00:48 Shugen [~quassel@ycl38-1-82-225-51-195.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:44 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:02:39 bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:8a53:8940:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has joined #lisp 13:04:24 *Xach* quivers with anticipation 13:07:02 I was considering making some extensions to your cl-charms, and wondered if you have sabandoned it, now that the site is gone. 13:08:45 do you have any "plans" for it? or do you use it or know that somebody else is using it? 13:13:24 kpreid [~kpreid@Lark.price.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 13:18:05 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@87-93-164-3.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: Lähdössä] 13:21:04 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.124.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:24:50 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-210.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:28:48 francogrex [~user@109.130.108.60] has joined #lisp 13:29:27 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-139-133.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:30:32 moah: there's a patch in the queue from someone else too. I had planned to look at it after the website 13:30:50 moah: there are people using it, or trying to, at any rate 13:31:59 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-174-106.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:32:06 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-174-106.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:34:19 moah: the gitorious page is still up at https://gitorious.org/cl-charms - if you have a patch, a merge request there would be helpful 13:35:28 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:14 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-36-20.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:43:16 ikki [~ikki@189.247.119.149] has joined #lisp 13:44:04 bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@ppp-94-69-178-202.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:49:26 chenbing` [~user@122.234.219.70] has joined #lisp 13:51:35 -!- chenbing [~user@122.234.219.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:53:00 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:55:36 maxm--: read your report 13:56:10 so the conclusion that lparallel ridiculously slow because of lambdas ? 13:58:20 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-180-024.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:00:57 -!- pnq [~nick@AC812C33.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:04:50 pnq [~nick@172.129.44.51] has joined #lisp 14:05:01 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-5-100.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 14:05:43 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 14:07:52 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 14:10:15 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:14:58 asvil` [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 14:16:03 -!- asvil` [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has left #lisp 14:16:04 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16:35 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:17:40 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 14:28:23 does anybody know if the name "lisp" or "common lisp" is trademarked or somehow IP-protected? 14:30:28 I believe the answer is 'it is not'. 14:30:32 why? 14:31:04 I like Unix brand hairdriers. 14:31:18 Maybe he's thinking of Lisp toothpaste 14:32:30 curiosity. 14:35:02 -!- osa1_ [~sinan@78.175.14.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:41 osa1 [~sinan@78.175.14.11] has joined #lisp 14:40:18 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.175.14.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:56 moah: there's a LISP protocol. 14:41:51 http://lisp4.net http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locator/Identifier_Separation_Protocol 14:41:51 osa1 [~sinan@78.175.14.11] has joined #lisp 14:44:44 -!- bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:8a53:8940:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:49:11 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.108.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:05 p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-xmvcwuxnmvtvqivi] has joined #lisp 14:54:12 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 14:56:07 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.175.14.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:58:38 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:59:41 osa1 [~sinan@78.175.14.11] has joined #lisp 15:01:04 anonus: yes, but ridiculously slow is relative. It has much more lispier inteface then cilk, which only allows you to have defuns 15:01:56 anonus: so if your app has map/reduce type parallelism, where most tasks take a few seconds to complete and approximately same time, it will be nicer to use then cilk 15:02:02 argiopeweb [~elliot@175.40.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:02:13 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.119.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:02:20 -!- p_l|brage [~pl@089-101-209242.ntlworld.ie] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:02:45 but if your parallelism is where tasks have a large standard deviation in their run-time, and when most tasks run-time is short, cilk beats it by like 50 times 15:03:11 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:35 *maxm--* uses cilk for doing evolutionary/genetic programming type stuff, there are several evolutionary computing methods that parallelise extremely well 15:04:18 2-3 times is relative, but 50 is absolutely ridiculous. 15:07:40 ie ramp method... (defun ramp (level) (if (zerop level) (evolve (create-a-random-population)) (let ((pop1 (spawn (ramp (1- level))) (pop2 (spawn (1- level))))) (sync) (evolve (merge-two-populations pop1 pop2))))) 15:08:01 automatic restart, total parallelism, best of both worlds 15:08:18 all in 1 shot 15:08:43 anonus: 50 times difference is on artificial benchmark (fib function) 15:09:27 as far as i understand - lparallel just has 50 times more overhead 15:09:39 maxm--: what happens if you explicitly switch to a serial version for n <= 5 (for instance) ? 15:09:41 real time differenc would be less, but on above ramp() function difference would be around 50%, because lparallel unable to migrate tasks (ie once worker goes idle, it can't steal the task if none are available) 15:10:21 It's still interesting because the issue with irregular parallelism is preserved. 15:10:58 pkhuong: I have a lot of tunables, let me make a paste.. Basically my parameters initial-random-pop-size, number-of-generations-to-elolve, and decay factor etc 15:11:13 maxm--: I thought we were talking about Fib. 15:11:17 ah 15:12:44 have not tried it actually, but beauty of cilk is that it does depth first, so technically when you do (fib 20), with 4 cores, 1st core calculates (fib 19) serially (thread recurces into its own queue 1st) 15:13:01 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 15:13:34 ZabaQ [~Zaba@85-132-136-40-static.vivo.cz] has joined #lisp 15:13:42 maxm--: I know. But the ugliness of naive fib is that's obviously biased toward lazy task creation, much more so than the vast majority of real-world tasks 15:13:53 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@85-132-136-40-static.vivo.cz] has left #lisp 15:15:03 pkhuong: thats why I said in practical terms it may not be that big of a difference.. But in my example above (the genetic programming ramp method), due to randomness evolving populations have large stddev in runtime 15:15:11 from lets say 4 seconds to 10 seconds 15:16:02 yup. Basically, I think that task stealing to compensate for irregular parallelism is very useful, and I'd be disappointed if lparallel didn't have something to address that issue. Low-overhead task creation, otoh, has always been more marginal for me so far. 15:16:03 without task stealing, that means 1 cpu would be idle on average like 25% of the time.. With task stealing, its constant 400% cpu utilization (with 4 cores).. 15:16:34 also the creation of lambda on each frame is ridiculously expansive, thats where my speedup of 50x comes from 15:16:37 The problem with fib as a benchmark is that, without a serial cut-off, it's hard to tell which effect you're benchmarking. 15:16:57 I also did the lambda route at 1st, and had orders of magnitude worse performance then C cilk version 15:17:25 after I kludged it by creating my own stack, I'm around 80% of speed of C version 15:17:31 sure. But who has tasks that consist of only a single addition 15:17:38 centipedefarmer_ [~centipede@71-34-163-250.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:07 it does depth 1st, its kind of hard to visualize, but calculating (fib 40) goes like for 1 second 4 threads each calculate (fib 39), (fib 38) (fib 37) and (fib 36), once all 4 workers are busy, calculation continues in the fast clone serially, just like normal (defun fib) 15:19:45 then after 1 second once one of these guys returned, it steals (fib 35) one of other 3 breathen, and again goes on to work serially for 0.8 seconds 15:19:48 maxm--: I know how cilk works. My point is that right now, it's hard to tell how much of the difference is due to lazy task creation versus a lack of load balancing mechanism liek task stealing. 15:20:16 need a more realistic benchmark I guess 15:20:36 *maxm--* will release his cilk thing, but it depends on my damn logging library, which I got to get into publishable state 1st, meh 15:20:46 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@175.40.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:21:17 *maxm--* tries not to turn into hu.dwim type guy, so I'm limiting myself to 2-3 dependencies max 15:21:22 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.175.14.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:41 maxm--: or just add an explicit check to switch to the serial version. 15:21:51 ok lemme try if you so interested 15:22:33 I'm not "interested" as much as potentially disappointed (: 15:23:50 ApeShot [~user@nmd.sbx08715.chapenc.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:13 When I call `slime-eval` from elisp with a namespace argument, it doesn't seem to apply that namespace 15:24:28 mishoo [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has joined #lisp 15:24:54 eg `(slime-eval 'x 'foo)` should return `x` from `foo` but instead tries to find `x` in the SWANK-IO environment. 15:25:08 anyone know about this stuff at all? 15:25:40 osa1 [~sinan@78.175.14.11] has joined #lisp 15:28:59 pkhuong: no difference whatsover 15:29:05 pkhuong: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127213 15:29:52 maxm--: I wouldn't expect it to make a difference for cilk, but for lparallel, which doesn't have LTC, yes. 15:30:08 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:30:23 ah yea in lparallel probably will make huge diff, lemme try 15:30:28 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-139-133.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:31:01 Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 15:33:21 Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.213.38] has joined #lisp 15:33:57 bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:8a53:8940:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has joined #lisp 15:34:38 actually hold on I made mistake , my fib-serial was defcilk not defun, so it was still rewritten 15:35:32 with fib-serial changed to defun its 10 seconds vs 11, so no diff 15:36:00 maxm--: dependencies are fine as long as they're in Quicklisp :) 15:36:02 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-65-151.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:36:25 maxm--: it's proof that not doing it wrong even helps in cilk (: 15:36:39 sellout: I'm putting finishing touches on my logging library, don't want to be embarrassed when I release it.. Its super-awesome 15:37:14 nonduality [~nondualit@chello084114039189.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:38:25 ok, changed lparallel to use fib-serial with limit of 5 15:38:53 so far so good, (fib 30) is 4 seconds 15:39:03 testing fib 40 15:39:15 how do lparallel and eager-future2 compare? 15:39:50 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:39:51 eager future is the slowest.. pcall is 70 seconds, lparallel 49, eager future never finished fib 40 15:40:14 maxm--: Any particular improvements/differences from others (like Log5)? 15:40:14 see, its still doing fib 40, and I can see 4 to 5 second stretches where only 1 core is busy 15:40:25 interesting, so lparallel is the one to prefer 15:40:31 sellout: very log4j like (including pattern appender) 15:40:38 zero consing in non-logging case 15:40:42 zero consing in logging case 15:40:58 as fast as log4j in logging case, around 40 times faster in non-logging case 15:41:36 automatic logger naming for sbcl, so (defun foo ((flet (blah (log-debug "whatever))))), automatically gets logger name of YOUR-PACKAGE:FOO:BLAH 15:41:44 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:41:48 maxm--: So, like log4cl, but better performance and actually mantained? 15:42:30 logger category names and separators are configurable by CLOS, pattern layout lets you change category name, case (including :invert), separator), so you can configure pattern layout to print above logger as your-package--foo--blah 15:42:41 sellout: yup 15:42:57 sounds good :) 15:43:07 LiamH: or xecto for a worse-is-better task-stealing engine (: 15:43:19 hmm lparallel version with fib-serial never finished, cpu usage is 0 15:43:26 maybe because of running from slime 15:43:40 doh, heap exhausted ldb error 15:44:16 pkhuong: how's that? 15:44:20 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:53 http://paste.lisp.org/+2Q5R 15:46:45 pkhuong: any way to use a GPGPU compute engine with xectors? 15:47:29 LiamH: it has a thread pool with task stealing and futures because it was useful for parallel regular vector processing. It also doesn't do any of the fancy rewriting that cilk does, so no lazy task creation and no continuation stealing. But it's good enough to handle irregular work units with decent base cases. 15:48:08 LiamH: it's structured so that it'd be possible. I want to write the kernels in C (or exploit liboil) first, though. 15:48:19 hi, i get an error msg when trying to compile clx (from darcs) 15:48:24 http://paste.lisp.org/display/127218 15:48:43 the error msg is a bit too generic .. don't know what the problem could be 15:48:44 pkhuong: I'm very interested in how it progresses. 15:48:49 nialo- [~nialo@ool-18bc9772.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:00 I've noticed that make-package on SBCL creates a completely empty package, so that when you `in-package` into it, nothing, not even basic things like `defvar` are defined 15:49:16 But Franz lisp seems to use at least cl-user in these packages 15:49:35 ApeShot: that's why you should always specify the :use clause. 15:49:41 Yes, trhe use list is implementation dependent. Hence you should givve it yourself in conforming code. 15:50:05 pnq1 [~nick@ACA201A6.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:50:17 Someone should update "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Common Lisp Packages", then 15:50:23 LiamH: too busy beating FFTW in SBCL for now ;) 15:50:35 Because if you try to follow that, you run into problems on SBCL 15:50:37 -!- chenbing` [~user@122.234.219.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:50:50 -!- pnq [~nick@172.129.44.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:51:06 pkhuong: No worries, still interested. This is a long term interest. 15:51:45 pkhuong: and I'm interested in hooking FFTW into Antik/grid, also long term. 15:52:15 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: +++ATH0] 15:52:39 ApeShot: cl-user doesn't export anything usually. 15:53:16 well, inside a fresh package in Franz looks like CL-USER, in terms of stuff in there 15:53:19 in SBCL it is empty empty 15:53:35 LiamH: I might play with stencil computations and convex optimisation soon, fwiw. 15:53:37 Yes, trhe use list is implementation dependent. Hence you should givve it yourself in conforming code. 15:53:45 yeah 15:54:10 pkuong: I admire your ambition. 15:54:15 *Odin-* would tend to think the 'utterly empty' approach is more to be expected... 15:54:50 Ok, so I am really mystified by the behavior of `slime-eval` 15:54:52 LiamH: the convex stuff, I can almost justify to the advisor ;) 15:54:55 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:54:58 It seems intent on ignoring the optional package argument 15:55:03 In both SBCL and Franz Lisp 15:55:16 Anyone ever called `slime-eval` from their code? 15:55:44 pkhuong: Ah, work related, good. I can justify some of my CL work as work-related. 15:55:55 ApeShot: http://paste.lisp.org/display/22414 15:56:16 I used slime-eval-with-transcript... 15:56:58 I think I might be barking up the wrong tree 15:57:20 I just need to ask the running CL to give me a list of some implementation dependent things to add hinting for them to the mini-buffer 15:57:35 Slime obviously already does this sort of thing internally for function parameter hints and so on 16:00:31 LiamH: plus, there are interesting mathematical optimisation opportunities in program optimisation. Some stuff like finding an execution order that respects the size of the register file while optimising for locality looks like it can be modeled as a vehicle routing problem with pickup and delivery. That's a hard problem, but it's also very well explored, so either we'll get interesting/difficult instances, or an easy solution procedure for an useful 16:00:57 pkhuong: interesting 16:01:39 pkhuong: how does liboil relate to OpenCL (confusing name!) if at all? 16:02:38 it doesn't. It's just a (deprecated, for some reason) library of Optimized Inner Loops. 16:02:54 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 16:04:06 pkhuong: Oh, OK. Does OpenCL provide anything potentially useful for parallel programming in CL? 16:05:47 I think so. The straightforward way is to compile a lispy DSL to OpenCL's not-quite-C. I think there are a few bindings that more or less provide that already. 16:06:20 I'm just not sure that we've found the right abstraction level yet. Xecto, if it gains an OpenCL backend, will just call pre-compiled routines. 16:09:04 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.175.14.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:09:19 That can't achieve peak performance in all cases, but I'm hoping that each kernel can be tuned to do so. You could say the goal is to get 100% of a potential 80% of peak performance ;) 16:09:32 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:53 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 16:16:56 ApeShot: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127219 it seems the newest slime needs this change. 16:17:32 Notice the result are obtained asynchronously. 16:18:23 sellout1 [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:24 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:18:45 there is a pretty awesome slime contrib called repl-pictures, that lets you send picture and it gets inserted to repl 16:18:54 pretty neat when you want to do graphs and stuff 16:20:38 pjb: thanks for the tips 16:20:55 pjb: I figured out a reasonable solution, I think 16:21:00 -!- ApeShot [~user@nmd.sbx08715.chapenc.wayport.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21:32 You call it as: (eval-in-cl "(lisp-implementation-type)" (lambda (values) (dolist (v values) (insert (format "%s\n" v))))) 16:23:23 -!- nonduality [~nondualit@chello084114039189.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [] 16:28:11 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-384996.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:30 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-384996.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:29:39 pkhuong: Interesting, thanks. 16:29:47 Xach: When using buildapp to build a core.image can I still specify an entry point to call once the core is loaded by SBCL? 16:31:08 top-level ? 16:31:13 :top-level or so 16:32:03 when you dump the image give it the function to call at top-level, that way the image will start with that function as top-level entry point 16:32:41 homie`: ah yes, doh 16:32:55 I was blinded to the simple option 16:32:59 i don't know buildapp internals, but it should give you a point there too if even by shell script options or whatever... 16:33:57 not to take away from the suggestion, but i just realised I want cmd-line args so I may just build a standalone executable with build-app 16:35:05 -!- sellout1 is now known as sellout 16:36:04 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:36:30 does anyone experienced problems starting up pixie looks in sbcl in slackware64 ? i think i get a segfault in libtiff or so and my whole kde crashes that way 16:36:40 erm in clim i mean 16:40:35 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@207.7.149.31] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:41:50 Guthur: --entry 16:42:02 or --entry-function or something. see the manual. 16:42:34 msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has joined #lisp 16:43:45 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p57AD67A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:08 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:45:51 ikki [~ikki@189.247.119.149] has joined #lisp 16:46:14 rudi_ [~rudi@cm-84.208.89.228.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 16:46:40 -!- rudi_ is now known as rudi 16:46:49 Xach: yep, just wondering if it had the same semantics when used with a core image as opposed to a executable 16:47:24 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:48:24 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:56 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:57:14 Xach: you may have forgot...but can I specify more that one asdf-path ? 16:57:30 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 16:58:18 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 17:00:49 oh nvm 17:04:55 Guthur: sure 17:06:57 awesome, it all works 17:07:08 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:07:34 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:14 now to plug all these pieces together, like some sort of abstract lego set, hehe 17:09:31 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.124.145] has joined #lisp 17:11:53 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 17:12:14 glad to hear 17:13:41 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 17:15:59 *maxm--* always gets euphoric feeling when you thought, and designed something for a long time, and then after tons of preparotary work where it looks like nothing is being accomplished, you plug stuff together and it just works from the first try 17:18:13 maxm--: tested most of it in isolation just to do the plugging part now, then all the real problems will be found, hehe 17:18:53 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:21:09 -!- pnq1 is now known as pnq 17:25:42 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:26:21 rme [~rme@50.43.135.246] has joined #lisp 17:26:34 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 17:30:20 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:22 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 17:31:42 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:33:19 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:30 sugarshark [~ole@p54884B1C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:33:49 -!- centipedefarmer_ [~centipede@71-34-163-250.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:35:38 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.119.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:36:55 Xach: it might be nice if buildapp made use of SBCL compressed cores in someway 17:37:21 clisp can compress its [excutable] images too. 17:37:23 Guthur: on the todo 17:37:38 pjb: buildapp is SBCL only though 17:37:45 ;-) 17:37:53 :.-) 17:37:58 :.-( 17:38:10 pjb: nice to know though 17:39:11 I would not mind making buildapp work on more CLs 17:39:36 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 17:43:34 oops, compression option would not have helped, I did not build with zlib support 17:45:51 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:26 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:37 centipedefarmer_ [~centipede@71-34-163-250.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:57 ah well, good excuse to get the latest SBCL 17:48:08 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA201A6.ipt.aol.com] has left #lisp 17:48:14 pnq [~nick@ACA201A6.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:50:15 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-139-133.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:52:58 I have a weird problem with &whole argument in define-method-combination. 17:53:23 Yes, it is weird. 17:53:27 what? 17:53:33 I haven't describe the problem yet. 17:53:34 &whole with define-method-combination. 17:53:45 There was something about it recently on cll. 17:53:48 (:arguments &whole whole) 17:54:05 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:17 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:22 It fails if I try to insert it in the effective method constructed by the combinator. (if I didn't mess up some CLOS terminology). 17:54:37 With The variable WHOLE is unbound. 17:54:51 What's :arguments ? 17:55:03 I'd put &whole whole first in the lambda list. 17:55:18 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-139-133.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:55:19 it's first 17:55:44 Then it's strange. 17:55:52 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_4.htm 17:56:00 search for :arguments. 17:56:34 I see. I'm not good enough on clos and mop... :-( 17:58:37 naryl: what's the problem then? 17:58:38 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.235.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:58:48 -!- Guest74081 [~Excalibur@h25.195.40.162.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [] 17:59:13 robde [~robde@pC19F7293.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:55 The generic function fails with The variable WHOLE is unbound. if I try to insert it somewhere in the effective method. 18:00:48 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:00:51 from the page you quoted: 18:00:54 "Each parameter variable defined by lambda-list is bound to a form that can be inserted into the effective method. When this form is evaluated during execution of the effective method, its value is the corresponding argument to the generic function;" 18:00:56 so, 18:01:10 you need to evaluate the form bound to whole 18:02:21 http://paste.lisp.org/display/127220 18:04:18 ikki [~ikki@189.247.119.149] has joined #lisp 18:04:18 is there any rule in CL standard that makes static typing/type inference impossible ? 18:04:37 -!- leo2007 [~leo@124.72.163.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:05:10 anonus: It is statically typed  everything is just of type T ;) 18:05:30 :local-hooks method returns a list of objects. Then the function named by hooks-name is called on each of these objects passing all the original arguments. 18:05:33 anonus: Actually, though, you can declare types and SBCL at least supports some type inference. 18:05:57 anonus: defun makes type inference impossible. 18:06:06 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:06:20 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-139-133.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:06:25 sellout: i mean that when you disassemble funcions - there are a lot of type cheking 18:07:14 and when you do (optimize (safety 0)) - just nothing checks types 18:07:48 anonus: declare types usefully and you get the best of both worlds in a lot of cases. 18:08:05 i mean that this checking should be in compile-time, doesn't it ? 18:08:46 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 18:09:09 -!- msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has quit [Quit: msponge] 18:09:18 pkhuong: not really. In CL, type declarations are promises YOU are making to the compiler. He doesn't have to check them anymore. 18:09:40 In CL, you must use check-type (or implicitely). 18:10:19 pkhuong: defun should check types of called functions and infer types of it arguments. why it's impossible? 18:10:27 anonus: so you may have a compiler that does type inference, and that checks that your promises are valid, but there's only one doing that AFAIK (sbcl). 18:10:30 anonus: because of defun. 18:10:33 AFAIK it's either a promise or a contract depending on OPTIMIZE settings. 18:10:43 anonus: because you can change the functions at run time! 18:10:59 pkhuong: because of standard for defun ? 18:10:59 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 18:11:07 just recompile everything like you do with redefined macros :) 18:11:48 (defun g () nil) (defun f (x) (prog1 (g) (setf (symbol-function 'g) (lambda () x)))) (f 42) (f "hello") 18:11:57 pjb: but when you change function at run time - new function just passed to compiler one more time 18:12:45 Not necessarily. Some implementations just interpret. Anyways, the point is that at run time, you may not want to spend hours doing static analysis. 18:13:01 so it's compiled as like it compiled when file is loaded, isn't it? 18:13:01 (It's usually faster to interpret once than to compile once). 18:13:03 hmm 18:13:09 anonus: it's not the new function that's an issue, but its callers. 18:13:12 it's another question 18:13:20 but 18:13:41 why not to do type inference optional? 18:14:35 exactly. (defun compile/type-inference (form) ...) 18:14:37 for example some functions declared as staticly typed (and all arguments for it should be typed or inferred) and other as dynamically yped 18:15:28 but compiler should detect such functions and show an error when you tries to pass an untyped argument to such function 18:16:07 pjb: comile/type-inference - is it real thing? %) 18:16:23 anonus: no, something you havev to implement :-) 18:16:23 or you just suggests? 18:16:32 anonus: that's definitely outside the standard. 18:17:02 it may be a useful extension, but it's not transparently applicable on standard CL. 18:17:14 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-18bc9772.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:17:15 pkhuong: i know that there is no type inference in standard 18:17:17 block compilation lets us do a bit of it, though. 18:17:27 and now you have the reason. 18:17:44 but i trying to figure is there any part of standard that forbids do it 18:17:45 -!- centipedefarmer_ [~centipede@71-34-163-250.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:18:15 yes: you can't do any global inference in a system that allows arbitrary runtime redefinition 18:18:47 why i can't do it transparently just implementing special (declare (type-inference)) in defun ? 18:18:50 the standard specifies that eval, defun or (setf fdefinition) all work. 18:18:56 anonus: that's non standard. 18:19:47 pkhuong: well, you can do global inference, only it takes a long time every time you define something. 18:20:18 Does standard forbid implementation-specific DECLARE directives? 18:20:51 anonus: I don't think so. 18:20:56 anonus: no, but the dialect with that declaration isn't CL anymore. It's a more static-analysis oriented dialect that looks like CL. 18:20:59 anonus: also you may have used defined declarations. 18:21:16 anonus: (declaim (declaration type-inference)) and then you can put them in your code. 18:21:26 wait wait 18:21:31 anonus: and you can write your compile/type-inference function that will take them into account. 18:22:27 so, if i wrote custom derclaration (type-inference), another implementations will just ignore it ? 18:22:35 Yes. 18:22:40 anonus: no, another implementation will barf on it. 18:22:54 implementation and tools should ignore the declarations they don't understand. 18:22:56 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:22:59 pkhuong: not at all. 18:23:03 pkhuong: are you sure? 18:24:01 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:24:04 anonus: i would hope so, otherwise it's too easy to mistype declarations they do understand, and have silent failures. 18:24:30 at least sbcl doesn't show an error, but warning 18:24:33 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:24:36 pkhuong: well, you have to declare them. 18:24:36 centipedefarmer_ [~centipede@71-34-163-250.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:46 dunno about other 18:25:11 So, since "An implementation is free to support other (implementation-defined) declaration identifiers as well.", you would have to (declaim (declaration other-implementation-declaration)) to be able to use that code on another-implementation. 18:25:23 see clhs declaration and clhs declare. 18:25:23 but I always can write something like #+(sbcl) (declare (type-inference)) 18:25:45 anonus: it's not standard though, to return to the original question. 18:26:05 #+ syntax is not standard ? 18:26:09 anonus: that's possible. But I find it better, unless it's a very implementation specific declaration, to declare the declaration, so if another tool or another implementation can deal with it, the better. 18:26:12 the declaration isn't. 18:26:14 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 18:26:40 anonus: #+sbcl; #+(sbcl) mean call the function named :sbcl (which most probably is not fbound). 18:26:57 sorry, never used it before 18:27:32 pjb: it's just bogus syntax 18:27:44 futexes... wtf is wrong with sbcl team? 18:28:28 anyway, I think that functions that eval'ed at runtime usually not so big, so type inference not take a lot of time... 18:28:33 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:28:33 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:28:41 anonus: type inference is a global process. 18:29:00 pkhuong: not necessarily 18:29:14 if it's useful. 18:29:46 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 18:29:55 i can do type inference for local function if any outside function that used within in already has type qualifiers 18:29:59 otherwise, you have to declare a lot of types, just like SBCL does with its local analyses. 18:30:17 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.138.222] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:39 if programm already compiled and loaded that usually means that all types already inferred 18:30:56 jaimef: what's wrong with futexes? 18:30:57 not if you redefine a callee. 18:31:13 so if you are compiling/loading another function - you need to infer types only inside it 18:32:14 -!- bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@ppp-94-69-178-202.home.otenet.gr] has left #lisp 18:32:16 it can be mandatory that if you redefine function - it should have same type qualifiers (or compatable relative to CLOS) 18:32:32 same type qualifiers doesn't make sense. 18:32:40 CL can express arbitrarily precise types. 18:32:42 why ? 18:32:50 and ? 18:33:05 mayne you misunderstood me 18:33:21 two (pure) functions don't have the "same" type unless they compute the exact same thing. 18:33:47 O_O 18:33:50 o_o 18:34:13 are we talking about the same word "type" ? 18:34:40 naryl: indeed, I see little wrong with your form now. 18:35:14 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:14 pkhuong: that doesn't seem to be correct. if the two functions accept the same types of arguments and they emit the same type of argument, two different functions could have the same type 18:35:24 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:35:24 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 18:36:04 pkhuong: int func(int a, int b) - C type qualifiers, and I can make few thousand functions that do differenc things with exactly that type qualifier 18:37:31 anonus: that's because you don't exploit all the freedom to specify a more precise type. 18:38:10 (defun a (a b) (min 0 (max 10 (+ a b)))) (defun b (a b) (min 0 (max 10 (- a b)))) 18:38:34 actually, it's not quite as bad, because CL seems to mispecify type intersection for function types. 18:38:48 pkhuong: i'm not trying to make CL be another haskell 18:39:01 It's still extremely difficult to tell without trying it out whether a compiler will deduce the same type for two given definitions 18:39:11 i'm just want type inference like Scala or C++'s auto do 18:39:16 pkhuong: ^ both a and b calculate a different thing, but the types -- even in lisp -- should be the same (for the same reasonable input types), yet a and b calculate different things 18:39:25 anonus: those depend on simpler type systems than CL's. 18:39:48 msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has joined #lisp 18:40:01 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 18:40:50 anonus: you actually have most of that, but with warnings. many compilers will warn you when you do something you shouldn't have done. for instance: send an instance of type Q to a function which wouldn't accept anything of that type. 18:41:04 anonus: I don't think either of them have anything as random as SATISFIES or MEMBER. 18:41:06 -!- msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:33 pkhuong: scala has 18:41:36 anonus: the difference with lisp is that you can extend and redefine what's known in your runtime... a lot ends there. i'm amazed by SBCL's inferences, but you may be able to extend them and make them better if you'd care for it :) 18:42:19 really, member types? Is (member 1 2 3) a subtype of (mod 4), fixnum, (integer 0), and integer? 18:42:19 hmm 18:42:31 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:42:47 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:59 I have a small question about FORMAT control directives 18:43:04 pkhuong: yep, you can make generic list's based on type hierarchy 18:43:14 Say I have two items which I want to use ~A on. How do I do so? 18:43:21 anonus: that's not the question. 18:43:42 anonus: also, scala doesn't have type inference as much propagation, much like SBCL. 18:44:23 something like (format t "~A says: \"~A\"" player words) 18:44:30 It's all local analyses, but their type system and semantics are much better suited to it than CL's. 18:47:29 hmm, i'll try 18:47:50 Any advice? 18:48:31 anyway, the issue is that with such an expressive type system it's not practical to expect programmers to be able to guess whether the compiler will infer the same type for two definitions or not. 18:51:22 pkhuong: (defun adder (a b) (declare (type fixnum a b)) (+ a b)) (defun another-adder (c d) (declare (type list c d)) (adder c d)) 18:51:30 sbcl doesn't say a word 18:51:36 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 18:51:46 ehu`: It works unless I define a :cap method. 18:52:04 is list subtype of fixnum? i don't think so... 18:52:23 anonus: in some systems it's a supertype of fixnum :] 18:52:44 anonus: you declared the type of the arguments, not of the function. 18:53:10 you want (declaim (ftype (function (fixnum fixnum) (values integer &optional)) adder)). 18:53:17 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:54 anonus: the standard allows you to (defun adder (a b) (+ (length a) (length b))) before the next call to ANOTHER-ADDER. 18:54:34 *Cosman246* looks around 18:54:38 Guess I chose a bad time 18:55:04 Cosman246: What's the problem? 18:55:11 pkhuong: anyway, saying about type inference, why it not inferred type of arguments of adder (that passed to +), and not show me a warning when i tried pass a list to them ? 18:55:29 (format t "~A says: \"~A\"" player words) 18:55:31 naryl: I am inquiring about format control directives 18:55:33 anonus: because warnings should be reserved for things like guaranteed runtime failures. 18:55:33 It should work. 18:55:39 Thank you! 18:55:51 anonus: in this case, you're allowed to redefine ADDER to avoid any type mismatch. 18:56:29 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-139-133.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:56:30 And that's why DEFUN makes type inference impossible; to fix this issue, you have to go outside the standard. 18:56:31 Cosman246: There's a great chapter about FORMAT in Successful Lisp: http://psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/chapter24.html 18:56:37 Thanks 18:57:23 Also, if I use &rest on that to specify words, can that be easily converted to a string? 18:57:41 (This is for "say" and "tell" in a MUD) 18:57:46 Cosman246: your question doesn't match your example. Here it is: (format t "~@{~A~^ ~}" 'hello 'world) 18:57:55 pkhuong: standard says that defun must be able to change function type? 18:58:05 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-188.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:58:13 anonus: it doesn't say that you're allowed to assume it doesn't, except for block compilation. 18:58:16 and inline functions. 18:59:03 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-139-133.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:59:16 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-139-133.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:59:25 What does ~@ do? 18:59:57 pkhuong: okay, so other suggestion 19:00:01 Cosman246: (format t "~:(~A~) says: ~(~{~A~^ ~}~)~%" 'myself '(hello world)) 19:00:11 @ is a flag in foro ~{. 19:00:15 s/ro/r/ 19:00:22 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.119.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:00:22 given that "the type of a function" is a very badly specified query, that's not surprising. (defun foo (x) (if x 0 1)) could be infered to be of type (or (function (null) (values (eql 1) &optional)) (function ((not null)) (values (eql 0) &optional))), for instance. 19:00:30 pkhuong: reinfer all types globally if function type qualifler change when you redefined it 19:00:42 pjb: Thanks! 19:01:13 mmm 19:01:30 anonus: and we're back to the issue that this could be amazingly slow. But yes, if you're willing to perform a whole-program recompilation at each redefinition and patch up all the code (including currently running code), pretty much any static analysis scheme is possible. 19:01:33 pkhuong: said it wrong 19:02:03 reinfer all types globally only if local inferring fails 19:02:39 Kron [~Kron@199.91.213.38] has joined #lisp 19:02:46 At this point, it seems to me you're better off going outside the standard, and providing a way to guarantee functions won't be redefined. 19:03:05 -!- Kron is now known as Guest63646 19:03:07 and you should be accurate when you redefine some function at runtime, not to run global reinference 19:03:40 anonus: actually, you don't want to be accurate, otherwise, nearly every redefinition will result in type mismatches. 19:03:51 it can show warning or error when (safety 3) is on 19:03:54 why ? 19:04:23 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.213.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:04:29 anonus: because a compiler can derive arbitrarily precise function types. 19:04:36 static typing is dumb! :-) 19:05:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:05:18 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:03 static type systems with type inference either have a much simpler type system or only infer simple types. Due to the way CL's operators tend to upgrade types a lot (e.g. adding two fixnums doesn't necessarily yield a fixnum), it's not as useful for performance to do so for us. 19:06:09 Still, once you're ready to accept non-standard behaviour, I suppose something like sb-ext:*derive-function-types* is what you want. 19:06:41 But, once that's activated, you're not coding in common lisp anymore, but in a lisp that looks a lot like it. 19:07:18 ikki [~ikki@189.247.119.149] has joined #lisp 19:07:31 i don't think that it will lead to type mismatch in every redefenition, anyway i need to carefully read the standard 19:07:55 I think pkhuong knows what he's talking about 19:07:56 anonus: did you miss my example of a disjunction of function types? 19:08:21 pkhuong: scala also has different number types, but it doesn't has such problems that you saying about 19:08:49 untrusted [~user@stgt-5f718677.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:04 anonus: arbitrary precise types 19:09:34 pkhuong: sorry, seems that i really missed it, can you repeat pls? 19:10:01 ehu`: any suggestions? 19:10:15 pkhuong said: (defun foo (x) (if x 0 1)) could be infered to be of type (or (function (null) (values (eql 1) &optional)) (function ((not null)) (values (eql 0) &optional))), for instance 19:10:24 It works unless I define a :cap method. 19:10:57 Looks like it's not in the environment of make-method. 19:12:04 let's create a nice webpage-style tutorial about how to program in lisp. ... >_> ... <_< 19:12:11 http://cliki.net/ 19:12:49 naryl: yea. I need to look up how exactly MAKE-METHOD works. When I wrote it for ABCL, I had to continuously look at the spec for D-M-C. 19:13:03 I'll go back to that and see what I can find about it. 19:13:27 regarding the format discussion above: each time I find myself dicking around with (format) stuff like advanced iteration, and later reflect upon it, I deeply regret the aimlessly lost hours of my life, and thinking "if I used (loop) I would be done in 2 minutes" 19:13:39 anonus: in scala, for example, Int is not a subtype of Long... because it doesn't do implicit bignum conversion. 19:13:51 msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has joined #lisp 19:14:01 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:14:12 maxm--: right, but when you know the format language, it's done in 30s instead of 2mn. 19:14:31 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-150-22-39.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:41 hmm, type system in CL a lot more comples than I thought 19:15:52 complex 19:16:16 yes, what I said about one hour ago. 19:16:17 ehu`: The form used with make-method is evaluated in the null lexical environment augmented with a local macro definition for call-method and with bindings named by symbols not accessible from the COMMON-LISP-USER package. 19:16:53 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 19:16:55 Oh, hey 19:16:58 pkhuong: thanks for clarifying 19:17:04 There's a debian package for CLtL 19:17:10 -!- two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:18:46 naryl: ah. then I think key is 'in the null lexical environment' 19:20:02 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-188.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:20:02 as in: it doesn't see the variables outside the MAKE-METHOD form. 19:20:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-188.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:21:17 Thanks... (what should I do?) 19:21:47 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA201A6.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:22:00 add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-5-100.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:22:10 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-188.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:24:33 -!- ehu` [~erik@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:25:46 naryl: generally, you have to calculate the "right" values and create a form which binds those. However, I'm not sure how you should do that in this case. 19:26:08 why do you need 'make-method'? 19:26:15 ie is there a way around it? 19:26:45 ehu: call-method only allows make-method or method objects 19:26:56 -!- untrusted [~user@stgt-5f718677.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 19:27:19 naryl: sure. but do you need call-method? 19:27:26 And I need need two more qualifiers (most specific cap and one more chain) after local-hooks 19:27:49 The chain is not in the paste. 19:28:01 shoule be like :around. 19:28:03 maxm--- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:06 -!- maxm-- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28:53 Well, cap can be defined as a lambda argument to the combinator. But what about :around then? 19:31:34 I suppose that's the difference? :around is part of the method specifier, not the gf or combinator. 19:31:59 andpro1 [~andrzej@host86-186-9-152.range86-186.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:08 By the way, pjb--about what we were talking about earlier--where can I find the emacs-lisp-in-common-lisp thing? 19:32:24 In lisppaste :-) 19:32:40 ..Ah 19:32:47 Oh, you mean the emacs-lisp implemented in common lisp? 19:33:35 naryl: I think the key regarding :arguments is in this sentence: "This form is useful when the method combination type performs some specific behavior as part of the combined method and that behavior needs access to the arguments to the generic function." 19:33:41 osa1 [~sinan@31.140.69.88] has joined #lisp 19:33:59 ie, it's &whole isn't meant to be used for any methods you're generating. 19:34:00 pjb: Yeah 19:35:29 Cosman246: chandler said on 2009-08-02: 23:49:48 There is an Elisp implementation in Common Lisp, and wingo is working on adding Elisp to guile. 23:50:02 The Elisp-in-CL was developed for Hemlock. I'm not sure of the current state. 19:35:29 19:35:42 So it looks like it might be in the sources of Hemlock. 19:37:21 pjb: it could be a nice approach to get emacs outside of the elisp setting and to bring elisp-like functions into common lisp easily 19:38:04 A Q&D way to do it would be just to implement the emacs VM in CL (instead of C), and just use emacs code. 19:38:19 sykopomp, sellout: I was reading your discussion yesterday about Erlang and the Actor model. I read the paper mentioned: "A Note on Distributed Computing." I don't think those arguments apply to Erlang. 19:38:44 ehu: Thanks. I suppose local-hooks should be a method generated by a macro. 19:39:25 pjb:Thanks 19:40:00 Joe Armstrong himself talks about how Erlang avoided the issue of local vs. remote calls inherent in most RPC systems: http://armstrongonsoftware.blogspot.com/2008/05/road-we-didnt-go-down.html 19:41:43 naryl: it's good you seem to know what to do. I'm not yet completely clear on what you're doing, but I guess that you have a sense of what to do next now. I hope it works. 19:41:54 :) 19:41:57 austinh: Why not? 19:43:04 -!- andpro1 [~andrzej@host86-186-9-152.range86-186.btcentralplus.com] has left #lisp 19:43:29 sellout: That paper is mostly talking about trying to hide the distinction between local and remote calls in an existing language. 19:44:01 It mentions that another approach could be designing a language that assumes everything is remote, but that would be less efficient when you don't need remote behavior and the language would be more complex. 19:44:58 pjb: that's the approach which seemed to make the most sense to me, i have no clue how much work it would be though. 19:45:15 pjb: also, it would give emacs a rather big memory footprint 19:45:16 Erlang is a language that was designed to follow the latter case and try to address the issues that were brought up in that paper (for instance, the way Erlang processes are linked so that failure is immediately detected and fault tolerance and consistency can be achieved). 19:45:16 austinh: Exactly. Which is effectively what Erlang does. I think that paper primarily just brings up the issues that need to be dealt with  latency, failure modes  and I forget the others. 19:45:46 Crap, I gotta run to lunch. Be back in about 10 min. Sorry. 19:46:47 austinh: I agree that Erlang takes the opposite approach from RPC, but I still think the lack of distinction is an issue. 19:48:40 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:49:17 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.119.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:50:22 -!- maxm--- is now known as maxm-- 19:51:44 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.135.246] has quit [Quit: rme] 19:52:13 sellout: did you get my message a few days ago? 19:52:33 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:37 Ralith: Re: your 3.0 branch? 19:52:46 yes 19:53:17 madnificent: the advantage would be easy elisp to CL "FFI", so we could _progressively_ convert to emacs to CL. 19:53:19 not sure why things suddenly broke (I have a bit of a confusion of installed versions) but it certainly doesn't hurt 19:53:37 Ralith: Are the changes incompatible with 2.9? (I imagine so) 19:53:44 pjb: i got that advantage, i was thinking of the downsides 19:54:04 sellout: so far only trivially: some new enum members, some removed ones 19:54:05 The alternatives are not pretty (from the CL point of view). 19:54:10 one's grovel file will not compile for the other 19:54:12 rgrau [~user@129.Red-88-9-117.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:14 madnificent: would you like an emacs written in guile? 19:54:20 I imagine I'll hit API differences soon enough though 19:54:39 Yes you'd have to implement the primitives written in C in CL. 19:54:51 rme [~rme@50.43.135.246] has joined #lisp 19:54:53 I just worked through the enums because that was what was breaking the grovel and the others were convenient and easy to check 19:54:54 But they're not so onumerous. 19:54:55 That's enough reason for the branch, I think (whereas the carray stuff was just better, even if it isn't necessary for older versions) 19:55:15 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 19:55:34 Ralith: Whenever you want to push that stuff, I'll make a 2.9 branch, and I'll pull 3.0 stuff into master. 19:56:17 are clim apps only for X or is there a way to incorporate the ncurses way too ? 19:56:29 wbooze: you could write a backend. 19:56:40 -!- maxm-- is now known as maxm- 19:56:44 sellout: it's already up in my repo 19:57:22 Ralith: Yeah, I meant "whenever you want to make a pull request"  because I'm lazy ;) 19:57:22 ok wait clx backend is for X gtkairo for opengl which is the same i think ok what is the null backend for ? 19:57:48 heh 19:57:48 pjb: i think the implementation of the C part in common lisp could be rather doable, but an emacs session which weighs in at 100Mb... wouldn't that be a tad heavy? 19:57:53 'kay 19:57:54 (rough estimate) 19:58:13 run it in clisp. There are other implementations than sbcl. 19:58:40 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 19:59:11 kenanb [5e36ede3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 19:59:15 And the point of having emacs in CL would be to augment it with CL libraries and smart code... 19:59:55 pjb: non-sbcl?! Heresy! 20:00:08 clisp will probably make it a lot slower, but gpl fanboys should prefer that, yes. what size do you estimate it would give in clisp? 20:00:18 hi, i wrote something that generates diagrams out of twitter hashtags 20:00:20 http://kenanb.wordpress.com/2012/01/22/twitter-diagrams/ 20:00:37 do you think this would be a interesting tutorial subject? 20:00:46 clisp has a JITC nowadays... 20:01:24 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:01:26 Ralith: *sigh* you're too fast ;) 20:01:39 that could be sexy in combination with emacs libraries. if the elisp code could be compiled to common lisp in some way it could mean something sexy with relatively little overhead. 20:01:41 ^^ 20:01:52 sellout: I kind of got the same impression of the article while reading it and thinking of erlang. It seems to have been written with more traditional object-oriented languages in mind, with synchronous calls, lots of global state, etc. It also claims that the only successful versions of this "treat it the same" model are small-scale, and this *definitely* doesn't apply to Erlang, which has a relatively long 20:01:54 history of being used in large production systems, and is fairly robust at that. 20:02:23 madnificent: of course, having an emacs lisp to CL compiler would be nice too. But this can come later. We need a roadmap. 20:02:32 not too steep. 20:02:39 kenanb: i'd read it if you'd write a short post on how you tackled it and what the cool pieces of code were 20:02:51 madnificent: of course! 20:03:38 pjb: if you're implementing the elisp runtime already, would it be that much more work? how much work do you estimate it would be anyways (estimates are bound to fail, but i don't have a clear view on it) 20:03:53 It's a compiler. 20:04:06 Cosman246: i'm obviously right, but what are you talking about? :) 20:04:08 sellout: I don't know how much overhead the massive level of context-switching erlang is designed to handle really has, or 20:04:49 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:55 sykopomop, sellout: The paper is saying that you can't hide those 4 or 5 issues, and I don't think Erlang does. I think it was designed to address them, and according to that other post I mentioned above, they aren't trying to hide the distinction between local and remote. 20:04:57 madnificent: i can paste the whole code somewhere if you'd like, the code is not too messy but the function names are a shame :) 20:05:06 or whatever, but it does seem like treating everything as if it will be scaled across hardware is a valid way to treati t. 20:05:09 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:26 kenanb: thats a pretty cool hack, i'd like to see code too 20:05:47 madnificent: everyting is documented in code -via my bad terminology- just a sec 20:05:48 austinh: right, i don't believe erlang hides it. I think it gives a single main way to handle both, which is nice. 20:05:56 also /me never heard of graphviz, and cl interface to it, seems like a cool thing to have 20:06:04 And even if Erlang is hiding them, then it is just following the other approach mentioned in the paper, which is designing a whole language around the remote case at the expense of the local sequential case. 20:06:17 *sykopomp* spawned 6000 threads in CCL today out of sheer curiosity. 20:06:48 *austinh* is interested in trying to implement some of the Erlang model in Lisp. 20:07:03 you can't really do it, I don't think. 20:07:07 *drdo* is interested in a lisp with an implementation of threads like that 20:07:18 I mean, you can pretend to, but you can't make the same sort of guarantees that erlang can make. 20:07:26 so I don't think it would be worth it, in the ennd. 20:07:36 sykopomp: Why can't you? 20:07:52 because CL has global state. Lots of it. 20:07:55 sykopomp: I'm only interested in a small portion of what Erlang does. 20:08:25 sykopomp: so? it's still going to be unsafe as it is now, just way faster 20:08:45 austinh: I don't believe it would be hard to write a pseudo-erlang library in Lisp. Heck, you could even have cross-thread exception handling (to sort of one-up erlang's process linking) 20:08:57 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:08 but there's a lot more to erlang than spawning a bunch of processes and have them communicate with each other through mailboxes. 20:09:09 kenanb: i don't know how much code it is 20:09:13 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:09:17 sykopomp: such things are pointless in practice with current CL implementations, threads are extremelly expensive 20:09:27 There's all the linking, thee monitoring, the fact that processes are *absurdly cheap* so they can be used constantly. 20:09:49 sykopomp: it's funny how a language which is predominantly functional can have so much global state :) 20:10:04 from the code I've seen, the vast majority of processes could be implemented without too much trouble as state machines. 20:10:12 chromaticwt [~user@71-32-106-187.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:13 and then there's OTP and all the other support libraries that erlang has developed over the years. 20:10:15 -!- chromaticwt [~user@71-32-106-187.albq.qwest.net] has left #lisp 20:10:16 maybe you don't want cheap threads as much as communicating state machines. 20:10:30 pkhuong: but do we really want to write code as state machines? 20:10:39 I don't want to write code all in CPS :\ 20:10:41 madnificent: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127223 20:10:44 kenanb: i can read the lisp tutorial about it later also, i don't mind the extra content around it :) 20:10:46 ah good 20:10:53 I totally want cheap threads, i don't even care about the non-sharing part 20:10:57 sykopomp: of course not. That's why we use lisps, so that we can easily build DSLs. 20:11:04 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-225-201.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:11:39 sykopomp: point is, it's much easier to build a state machine DSL than to implement cheap threads in full CL. 20:11:39 sykopomp: I'm primarily interested in Erlang's monitors and message passing. 20:12:06 austinh: that part could be implemented in a day. 20:12:09 Erlang's locking implementation is very neat, too. 20:12:17 austinh/sykopomp: My original comments are really about the actor model part of Erlang  I'm not looking at function calls at all, just the message-passing bits. 20:12:28 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:48 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 20:13:10 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.247] has joined #lisp 20:13:31 I know the topic of microthreads shows up in #lisp every now and then. It seems like it always ends up at "not worth it" 20:13:31 kenanb: why (reduce #'append ...) instead of (apply #'append ...) ? 20:13:48 I think Erlang's style of "functions are local, message passing could be either, so we treat it as remote" leads people to write fewer, bigger serial chunks than, say, something based on a process calculi that made distinctions between local and remote parallelism. 20:13:54 kenanb: or better, change the collecting in the loop top append 20:13:57 s/top/to/ 20:14:16 maybe if there was already a lot of support for effectively handling multithreading and communication between processes, the concept would be more valuable. 20:14:23 Also: http://clocc.cvs.sourceforge.net/clocc/clocc/src/cllib/elisp.lisp?view=markup 20:14:36 I mean, Erlang didn't even have SMP support until a few years ago, right? 2005? 20:14:37 Frozenlock [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:39 and, http://common-lisp.net/viewvc/phemlock/phemlock/src/elisp/hemlock-shims.lisp?revision=1.1.1.1&view=markup&sortby=author&pathrev=HEAD 20:14:43 sykopomp: The message passing is easy, but I think the monitor stuff is not quite as simple. 20:14:59 sykopomp: what it meant was that you had to run multiple nodes per machine 20:15:30 since R14B it was stabilized 20:15:39 the changes were afaik mainly related to GC 20:15:50 kenanb: The twitter diagram thing is cool 20:16:27 Cosman246: thanks! :) 20:16:42 sellout: I don't know enough about that, but I think I agree with what you are saying in that last comment. 20:16:47 madnificent: i don't know, i probably thought append only takes two arguments 20:16:58 p_l: right. 20:17:13 austinh: btw, micro-threads and IPC are really just the bare bones of Erlang, and don't actually constitute it's main strength 20:17:17 austinh: I think the monitoring stuff 20:17:19 madnificent: you are right, i can change all reduce appends to apply 20:17:37 might be much easier once you have the abstraction layer going :) 20:17:45 p_l: I'm not sure why you are telling me that. 20:17:56 kenanb: i hope you don't mind me saying what i'd change... if you do, please tell me to shut up :) 20:17:57 austinh: ... curse of dropping late into discussion 20:18:51 sykopomp: The monitoring stuff is a little hairier than the message passing due to more complicated resource contention and process exiting. 20:18:55 p_l: my point was simply that Erlang didn't wait until SMP existed to be erlang, and SMP support became valuable because they could really exploit it. 20:19:14 Anyway, interesting thing I was pointed out by both books and people about Erlang, is that a) you have to think of OTP as pretty integral part of it, even if you replace chunks of it b) Erlang's VM *is* an operating system 20:19:16 sykopomp: And they didn't get it right in Erlang the first time, either. 20:19:45 austinh: I suspect it might be conservativeness of Erlang core developement 20:19:51 kenanb: i'd probably also replace the tweet-tag-p with the logical expression, instead of using if (eg: (and (string/= string "") (eql tag (char string 0)))) also, you used (eq tag (char string 0)), which is likely a bug (eql can be used for chars, eq may not work afaik) 20:19:58 austinh: I'm thinking of implementing a lot of erlangish stuff in CL while I learn Erlang -- and I'll be doing it professionally, so I think that's a pretty good position to know how to translate stuff (or to know why it would be a bad idea to try) 20:20:24 madnificent: of course not, i would love to get criticized, helps me learn 20:20:45 sykopomp: I've been doing the same thing. 20:20:58 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:21:01 sykopomp: Poking through the Erlang source code has been a lot of fun. 20:22:25 kenanb: i'd prefer #'string= instead of #'string-equal in get-tags because it doesn't make me think about capitalization, i wonder if others disagree on that. just curious, it's completely correct though 20:22:34 qwebirc79652 [5f0ecba1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.14.203.161] has joined #lisp 20:23:28 austinh: part of me wonders if you can really get significant benefits about this while still having all that global state, lacking code versioning, etc. 20:23:43 I mean, erlang has global mutable state, too, but it's relatively isolated :) 20:23:46 kenanb: in that same function, you might like the rcurry construct in alexandria: remove-if-not (rcurry #'tweet-tag-p tag) ; perhaps you'd like to check it out, your code is completely sane though 20:24:07 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:15 sykopomp: The code versioning would be neat. I don't see what the problem would be with global state. I see it as a boon, but requires programmer discipline. 20:24:36 madnificent: i see, i also choose to use #'equal in some inconvenient places i think, i usually used whatever predicate works, hoping to change them with more concise versions some time later 20:25:48 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 20:27:26 kenanb: i'm stopping to read most of the code from there one. not that it's that bad or anything. you seem to write a lot of comments (i like that), but they tend to describe how the function does something, instead of what it is supposed to do. i tend to find the latter the handiest documentation if i need to skip over my own code later on. 20:27:38 kenanb: your practice of coding something that works, is likely good :P 20:27:50 (if foo bar nil) should be replaced by (when foo bar) 20:27:50 sykopomp: For my application, I'd be fine if I can only spawn one process per CPU, but I want monitoring for fault tolerance. I also want something akin to gen_server for ease of writing asynch interfaces. 20:28:17 unless bar is t , in which case it should be replaced by foo. 20:28:52 -!- qwebirc79652 [5f0ecba1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.14.203.161] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:28:58 sykopomp: If I can get these things done (hopefully next week), then I'd love to try to implement Erlang's process lock system, but that would probably have to be pretty far down the road. 20:29:36 austinh: gen_server is an otp thing? 20:29:38 kenanb: cool code! i like the fact that you write a lot of comments. i like literate programming myself :) 20:29:51 anyway, let me know how it goes. Do you have a git repo up for it? 20:29:55 madnificent: the comments were for me infact, i didn't document the code to describe the implementation but to understand what the heck i did when i look at it again tomorrow :) i am going to replace the documentation for other people to read later :) 20:30:09 kenanb: if you convert it to a tutorial you may also want to replace the *results-per-page* by a constant +results-per-page+ 20:30:11 sykopomp: Yeah. It's a way of writing an asynch server w/o having to think about the asynch bits. I think that part will be easy. 20:30:28 kenanb: thanks for pasting it btw 20:30:31 sykopomp: I don't have anything up now, but I will put it up once I get it running. 20:30:42 ah, you are right, earmuff variable was a wrong choice there 20:31:16 well, if the max amount of results fluctuates a lot in twitter's api, then it may make sense to make it a variable, i doubt that though 20:31:40 madnificent: you are welcome, i was already going to release it once it reaches a point that deserves to be "released" 20:31:41 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 20:34:02 Hm. Speaking of which -- how do you implement timeouts for condition variables? 20:34:55 madnificent: i'm copying all your comments to a file, will review and make related changes tomorrow, since i'll also change some other stuff 20:36:13 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.193.184] has joined #lisp 20:36:26 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-040.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:37:00 madnificent: I thought that reduce was better than apply because of call-arguments-limit. 20:37:04 -!- Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-040.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:37:04 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-040.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:37:24 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:39:38 sykopomp: I'm using the new timeout argument included with SBCL's mailbox stuff. I think that's the only timeout I need. 20:40:19 I wonder how SBCL implements it, then. I'll check it out. sb-mailbox, right? 20:40:37 sb-concurrency:mailbox 20:41:19 thanks 20:44:34 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.232.148.219] has joined #lisp 20:45:27 I wonder--perhaps the Wizard Book is known as such not only for its cover, but also for a reputation of producing wizards? 20:47:06 daimrod: i haven't ran into issues with it. a good compiler should optimize it away, i guess. 20:47:17 kenanb: good luck 20:48:20 sykopomp: FWIW, this note in demonitor is where things got more complicated for me: http://www.erlang.org/doc/man/erlang.html#demonitor-1 20:48:20 does anyone else have the feeling that he misses 70% of what Cosman246 is sending into #lisp, leaving only blurbs of what probably once was a conversation? 20:48:54 sykopomp: Before that, I thought I could do everything with asynch mailboxes. 20:50:15 madnificent: Sometimes I just throw sentences in the void 20:50:48 Cosman246: don't 20:51:55 zmv [~zmv@187.105.243.179] has joined #lisp 20:52:32 -!- zmv is now known as Guest42790 20:53:52 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.232.148.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:54:16 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:51 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:51 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:56:52 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 20:58:27 -!- robde [~robde@pC19F7293.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 20:59:33 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:01:16 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.124.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:07:12 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:45 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:07:50 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:13 sysop_fb [~fb@108-66-160-34.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:31 pnq [~nick@AC817872.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:40 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 21:12:50 oh SUBSEQ, how I do love you 21:13:03 By the way, in our earlier discussion of Emacs Lisp-Common Lisp integration, this: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsCommonLisp would be an interesting alternative to implementing Emacs Lisp in Common Lisp 21:13:39 Guthur [~user@212.183.140.56] has joined #lisp 21:14:30 It would be better to do it the other way around, though 21:15:35 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:15:47 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:15:49 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-191-181.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:16:53 wgl [~wgl@209.242.26.41] has joined #lisp 21:17:16 wanderingelf [4817e03b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.59] has joined #lisp 21:17:49 Anyone here use slimv? 21:20:31 Why use vi? 21:20:35 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 21:21:41 Well, I use emacs/slime, but a friend is a VI user and am trying to get him going on lisp, hence slimv. 21:21:51 basho__ [~basho@static.76.144.4.46.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 21:23:14 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:55 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:25:51 editor habits are like tattoos, you get one during adolescence and are stuck with it for life 21:26:15 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:26:17 rudi: but you can get more than one! 21:27:03 yes, but then everyone things you're a weirdo ;) 21:27:34 anyway, that was paraphrasing a comment made somewhere by jwz that I haven't been able to find again ... 21:28:14 is it an obvious statment that most lisp devs use emacs? 21:28:33 sousousou: yes, but not all. 21:28:34 I once wrote an editor with input from punched cards for source on disk. 21:28:39 I would assume there's a strong correlation 21:28:53 Next editor i used was teco. 21:28:55 sousousou: depends if you use a commercial implementation or not. 21:28:59 Then microemacs. 21:29:13 microemacs sounds lovely, from the name 21:29:14 When I used Allegro CL, I still used emacs. 21:29:16 *maxm-* finally deleted his ~/lisp-systems dir and switched entirely to quicklisp 21:29:31 pjb: ok. I used their Windows IDE 21:29:34 sousousou: there's only one true emacs, it's GNU emacs. (until we switch to Hemlock). 21:29:43 pjb: no other choice in the corporate environment I was in. 21:30:10 sousousou: It was; it was written by dgc to edit source on the Digital Rainbow pc, which had four 5.25 floppy drives. 21:30:53 very cool. 21:31:08 sousousou: Microemacs is still around; apparently linus prefers it. 21:31:25 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:31:28 and hemlock... Common Lisp? 21:31:33 was my go-to editor for quite a few years. It was, in fact, my gateway to true emacs. 21:32:23 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129082182.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 21:32:39 Which i have used since about 1990. 21:33:05 I had a friend who had a similar situation 21:33:13 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-384996.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:23 But never really used VI or VIM until now and am trying to get it to work with slimv, but no luck so far. 21:33:28 I was trying to teach him CL, but he was hooked on vim 21:33:39 Now he uses Emacs for CL 21:34:21 Trust me, slimv is not worth the effort 21:34:39 You can always try to teach them with viper-mode on Emacs 21:35:11 Hmmm. there's a thought. 21:35:16 Oooooooooooh. 21:38:48 -!- Guest42790 is now known as zmv 21:40:58 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.135.246] has quit [Quit: rme] 21:42:57 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p57AD67A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:46:43 Cosman246: ewww, viper-mode 21:47:59 -!- rgrau [~user@129.Red-88-9-117.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:24 talking of Emacs vs Vi(m), I quite like this http://xkcd.com/378/ 21:50:51 M-x butterfly RET works. 21:50:52 -!- wanderingelf [4817e03b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.59] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:50:52 tickles my geek funny bone 21:51:05 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:51:38 fails for me 21:51:44 damn ionsphere 21:52:12 Bletch, not xkcd 21:55:26 -!- rudi [~rudi@cm-84.208.89.228.getinternet.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 21:57:14 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.140.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:59:30 Guthur [~user@212.183.140.56] has joined #lisp 22:07:04 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:11:39 fuzzy completion spoils you; I want it everywhere 22:13:25 sloanr [~sloanr@c-75-72-180-95.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:29 -!- osa1 [~sinan@31.140.69.88] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:14:33 same (: 22:16:04 urandom__ [~user@p548A3FAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:05 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3FAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:43 SLIMEs completion algorithms are some the best I've experience, lusty explorer is up there as well though 22:20:53 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129082182.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:22:36 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:22:56 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.232.148.219] has joined #lisp 22:27:21 lol 22:27:46 M-x M-c M-butterfly.... 22:28:01 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-50-021.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:28:03 -!- dmiles_a1k [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-50-021.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:28:16 M-butterfly??? 22:28:22 M-x butterfly RET ! 22:29:03 pjb: Is your keyboard missing the butterfly key? 22:29:21 Yep. 22:29:56 pjb: then you don't have one of those IBM 10^101 key keyboards?? 22:30:41 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-5-100.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 22:31:23 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD7EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:33:18 someone has stole my butterflies, no fair 22:34:54 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 22:35:22 -!- centipedefarmer_ [~centipede@71-34-163-250.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:35:27 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:37:44 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.232.148.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:37:55 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:50 centipedefarmer_ [~centipede@71-34-163-250.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:41 -!- centipedefarmer_ [~centipede@71-34-163-250.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:45:44 So I'm growing to dislike the Common Lisp package system but then I use languages like Python and Ruby and I'm like, wow, they need a package system. 22:46:57 gigamonkey: what makes you say that about python? 22:47:05 What's to be disliked in the Common Lisp package system? It only needs hierarchical packages. 22:47:22 when using SBCL via a shebang script is there a way to get it to load the .sbclrc 22:47:25 seems to ignore it for me 22:47:34 pjb: well, the package system, as a system for managing symbols is probably fine. 22:47:53 The problem comes in when you have to use those symbols as names for things. 22:47:59 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:48:04 Guthur: (load "~/.sbclrc") 22:48:16 pjb: ah, cheesr 22:48:21 It's just very hard to know what :use'ing a package is going to do but it's too painful to never :ue packages. 22:48:24 cheers 22:48:50 package locks probably help but they're not standard and kind of feel like a kludge. 22:48:59 That said, it shouldn't be too hard to design your own module system. 22:49:10 if you could alias a package it would be goo as well 22:49:13 good* 22:49:13 gigamonkey: I would say count your blessings regarding package system of lisp. We use ruby at work, and the whole gem stuff and multiple versions of ruby give me heartburn. 22:49:21 Guthur: you can add nicknames. 22:49:24 RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-74-101-89-123.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:42 Guthur: you can even rename packages! 22:49:45 sykopomp: Actually, I can't think of when I felt that about python. But since it has the property of being able to add methods to objects after the fact (monkey patching), it'd be nice to be able to put those names into some kind of namespace. 22:49:45 pjb: yeah but you have to touch the original defpackage, no? 22:49:52 Same for Ruby and Javascript. 22:50:11 Guthur: not at all. RENAME-PACKAGE is a separate function. 22:50:15 rme [~rme@50.43.135.246] has joined #lisp 22:50:20 gigamonkey: I have four versions of ruby installed with 'rvm' and it is pretty much a mess to keep them all working with various packages. 22:50:50 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-50-021.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 22:51:13 why did I never realise this 22:51:35 I have thought for a while that it might be good if CL library authors would give their packages long names and then expect that users of the library would use RENAME-PACKAGE to give the package they are going to use a short nickname. However there's no good scoping on that so it could also turn into a mess. 22:51:38 there's me using large package qualifiers when I did not need to 22:51:58 sb-concurrency is go to immediately get truncated 22:52:15 dmiles_a1k [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-50-021.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 22:52:18 I think the biggest thing I'd like to have in CL packages is aliasing. 22:52:28 pjb: there has to be a catch 22:52:40 I don't feel a need for hierarchical package names if aliasing is available. 22:52:53 aliasing for both local symbols and package names. 22:53:02 Guthur: the catch is you'd better leave the existing name in case other code you want to load later uses it. And you can't use a short name that any other package currently loaded or to be loaded in the future uses. 22:53:06 Guthur: yes. The standard doesn't allow the new name to name an existing package. So when adding niccknames, you must use a temp name for the package and do it calling rename-package twice :-) 22:53:24 I'm 22:53:28 urgh 22:53:30 nm 22:53:36 sykopomp: Imma let you finish ... 22:54:28 hehe I knew it sounded too good to be true 22:55:37 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-74-252.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:56:18 Hmmm. I'm dreaming when I have this vague idea that there was some way to hook LOAD-FILE so it'd run some code after the file is loaded, right? 22:57:47 Shadowing LOAD... 22:57:58 Where's load-file ? 22:58:44 Er, sorry, LOAD. 22:59:20 pjb: yeah, and, as I mentioned the other day then you have to teach SLIME and ASDF and who knows what else to use your version of LOAD. That's not really all that useful. 23:00:01 gigamonkey: I meant to do C-k because I lost my thought but did C-j instead. 23:02:41 but seriously. I'd love aliasing. 23:03:16 I wouldn't mind merging packages and modules, either, but that's just me, and I'd still like to be able to use them separately in corner cases. 23:03:54 My experience with using one-package-per-file was great, and I'll probably keep doing it for other projects. :) 23:04:16 gigamonkey: I think the trick I use in ibcl could work. Shadowing IN-PACKAGE, DEFPACKAGE, etc, and reader macros, so that we start in a package where all references to CL are redirected to your own package. 23:06:31 how does one grab arguments to SBCL shebang scripts 23:06:50 (apropos "ARG") 23:08:05 Guthur: I think the same way as usual 23:08:07 pjb: yes, there is no doubt that one could build a not-quite Common Lisp on top of Common Lisp that implements these features. 23:08:23 But's that's true for almost all sets of features. 23:08:39 Or just use explicitely NEW-CL:LOAD instead of CL:LOAD... 23:09:16 That should be an option of all those tools (asdf, slime, etc). 23:10:06 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:11:19 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-139-133.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:13:08 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:13:11 p_l: it was sb-ext:*posix-argv*, in case you were interested 23:13:36 Mohikaner [~moe@stgt-5f73f15c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:40 -!- Mohikaner [~moe@stgt-5f73f15c.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 23:13:55 Guthur: heh. Didn't need the refresher, really :) 23:14:00 centipedefarmer_ [~centipede@71-34-163-250.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:45 well, knowledge wants to be free and all that 23:16:07 pjb: that's a worthy (and possibly obtainable) goal 23:19:15 tsuru``` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-250-104.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:08 -!- Shugen [~quassel@ycl38-1-82-225-51-195.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:44 -!- tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-25-97.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:21:06 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:22:05 -!- kenanb [5e36ede3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.54.237.227] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:22:44 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@pool-74-101-89-123.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 23:25:18 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-124-079.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 23:26:48 -!- sloanr [~sloanr@c-75-72-180-95.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sloanr] 23:32:24 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:38:38 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-65-151.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:39:55 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:42:03 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-127-46.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 23:42:33 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:42:44 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:43:05 Tordek [tordek@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has joined #lisp 23:43:21 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-36-20.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:45:03 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:50 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 23:49:04 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:49:06 setmeaway2 [~setmeaway@118.45.149.247] has joined #lisp 23:49:49 -!- setmeaway2 [~setmeaway@118.45.149.247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:49:54 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.247] has joined #lisp 23:51:52 Parser [~Alter@host181-126-dynamic.31-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:53:17 dl [~download@c-174-56-88-67.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:30 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp