00:01:15 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 00:02:59 derrida: No obvious reason, but negative reasoning like that can be difficult. 00:03:56 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129082109.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:07:37 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:52 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-150-22-39.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:05 ravster [~user@184.175.28.107] has joined #lisp 00:29:09 Hello all 00:31:33 Hello ravster 00:43:08 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:43:24 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:44:12 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:00 -!- chenbing [~user@122.234.219.70] has left #lisp 00:46:10 chenbing [~user@122.234.219.70] has joined #lisp 00:49:37 mikecsh [~mikecsh@n219073040035.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:04 -!- centipedefarmer_ [~centipede@75-162-52-240.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:53:34 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@n219073040035.netvigator.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:55:00 okay either my benchmark is incorrect or sbcl has really fast hash-tables (~10 CPU cycles for a miss in a 1M element #'equal table) 00:57:23 Can't it be both? 00:58:42 Of course, but it is coincidence only if an incorrect benchmark gets the correct result 00:58:46 :) 00:59:37 It's inlining the gethash call I think, since I don't see a call to anything int the disassembly, but there are some take N modulo a prime number maths in the loop 00:59:47 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-36-20.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:01:21 how do you kill a thread or process or thread in sbcl and how do you refer to them ? 01:02:30 (sb:thread:list-all-threads) shows them all but i don't know how to refer to the processes witha a (sb-thread:kill....) call 01:03:00 I don't know about SBCL specifically, but in general if you have to kill a thread, you're doing it wrong 01:03:14 wbooze: (sb-thread:list-all-threads) returns a list. 01:03:57 waah 01:03:59 wbooze: you can work with elements of the list 01:04:19 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA23698.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:04:54 (sb-thread:kill (car cdr....etc (sb-thread:list-all-threads)) ? 01:05:21 ltaoist [~mo@113.94.105.151] has joined #lisp 01:05:38 There is no symbol SB-THREAD:KILL. 01:06:06 my listener got unresponsive i want to kill it basically.... 01:08:15 Perhaps sb-thread:interrupt-thread is what you want. 01:08:36 sb-thread:kill-safely ? 01:08:42 borodon [~Borodon@ip68-106-150-168.cl.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:46 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:10:41 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:27:27 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:33:09 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 01:34:36 vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 01:34:45 -!- ovechkin [~ovechkin@c-24-1-36-10.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:40:04 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:41:43 ok i got the tests now 01:41:57 for gl-test i mean, i was executing some sub forms for some tests it seems 01:42:08 eheh 01:42:22 anim, anim/list, gears* all run 01:42:44 i could not see anything with no-floats tho 01:43:04 seems viewport is not set or so....don't know 01:45:54 and the error in the code is that (host "localhost") has to be changed to (host "") in the lambda list of the test function 01:47:13 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:47:31 else there's nothing to change really... 01:51:33 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:00:06 echo-area [~user@123.120.233.59] has joined #lisp 02:04:17 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 02:09:39 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-57-94.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:10:38 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:34 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:14:11 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:17:30 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:24:03 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:24:41 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 02:32:05 Kron [~Kron@199.91.214.37] has joined #lisp 02:32:31 -!- Kron is now known as Guest56742 02:34:02 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:34:50 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.214.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:40:16 zophy [~zophy@host-5-150-220-24.midco.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:22 -!- borodon [~Borodon@ip68-106-150-168.cl.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:42:00 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483BFF7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:23 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483AE1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:46:32 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:47:49 lake [~lake@li71-228.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 02:53:34 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 02:54:34 -!- MrBusiness [~MrBusines@75-163-245-119.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:55:44 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.155.10.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:57:18 theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.155.10.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:44 -!- senj [~senj@S01060026f323bcdf.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 02:58:55 just picked up the Land of Lisp book to start my lisp adventure. 02:59:00 anyone else read it? 02:59:57 MrBusiness [~MrBusines@75-163-245-119.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:33 not me yet 03:12:59 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:05 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:15:51 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:16:54 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:31 sousousou [~bcarmer@host-72-174-54-175.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:30 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:23:38 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has left #lisp 03:26:11 in `clisp`, how do i use "ABORT :R3 Abort main loop 03:26:31 I tried typing ":R3" but that did not seem to work. 03:26:44 erm :q 03:27:00 ah, thanks wbooze 03:27:03 or :help 03:27:12 will read that now. 03:27:22 oh, that is similar to :q. 03:27:47 yes it shows you the options 03:28:52 thank ya 03:29:18 no problem 03:29:37 -!- vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has left #lisp 03:30:02 vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 03:31:24 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:31:40 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 03:35:12 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 03:36:51 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:11 -!- vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has left #lisp 03:37:49 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 03:48:17 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 03:49:17 lake: I just started with Lisp about three weeks ago, have spent the last week with that book. I highly recommend you take the time to get emacs/slime set up. 03:49:40 It is painful and slow going at first but really pays off after a little bit. 03:51:28 thanks for the encouragement, shortbus_driver 03:51:56 i'm a vim guy now but have used emacs a bit and enjoyed it. 03:52:26 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:52:52 There's slime for vim I hear. Look into it. Using the built in REPL in any of the few Lisps I tried was pretty painful. 03:54:15 I have no experience with vim (and didn't with emacs either until a few weeks ago) but the difference slime made to Lisp was almost like night and day. 03:56:51 hi, i wonder what's the meaning of "ham frequence" in PCL chapter 23, I know span, but I don't konw "HAM" 03:57:11 spam 03:57:45 ABORT :R3 Abort main loop 03:57:57 whoops. 03:57:58 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE 03:58:07 ham is the good mail. spam is the bad. 03:58:40 chenbing: what rme said. 03:58:46 thank rme. is ham a metaphor? 03:59:18 -!- PECCU [~peccu@ZU206184.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 03:59:20 "Graham decided to try distinguishing spam from nonspam, a.k.a. ham" 03:59:23 oh, gigamonkey! :-) 04:00:33 Well SPAM is a kind of fake meat product. Ham is the actual meat product it attempts to resemble. 04:00:43 i once suppose it's hamful. oh my god 04:00:48 harmful 04:01:28 i see ,it's about hamberg 04:06:14 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-57-94.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:53 chenbing: er, what? 04:09:33 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 04:12:45 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-179-45-189.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:31 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-45-189.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:14:57 PECCU [~peccu@ZU204198.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:16:18 rmathews_ [~roshan@59.92.73.201] has joined #lisp 04:16:21 -!- rmathews [~roshan@59.92.82.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:16:22 -!- rmathews_ is now known as rmathews 04:19:35 Hamburger 04:20:01 chenbing: no, this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham 04:22:02 :-) 04:22:05 chenbing: It's just a silly joke. Spam = bad mail (and bad meat). Since ham is good meat, good mail must be ham. 04:22:08 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:22:29 nod 04:23:57 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-170-230.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:26:30 -!- ravster [~user@184.175.28.107] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:28:15 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 04:29:37 Is anyone here particularly familiar with lispbuilder-sdl-image? 04:30:56 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-36-20.lns3.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:33:29 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:39:38 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:39:48 Bucciarati [~buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:12 noname [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:38 -!- noname is now known as Guest44288 04:41:27 einstein [~forrest@cpe-76-187-13-203.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:41:39 A small musing on new dialects: May be useful, may not be necessary 04:42:29 -!- rmathews [~roshan@59.92.73.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:42:30 s/dialects/things/ 04:42:31 Of course, they can also be un-useful, and necessity varies on the person 04:43:11 but I'd be open to a new dialect of LISP if it retained some compatibility with CL and was good enough 04:45:14 -!- einstein [~forrest@cpe-76-187-13-203.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: einstein] 04:45:32 einstein [~forrest@cpe-76-187-13-203.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:45:32 -!- einstein [~forrest@cpe-76-187-13-203.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:47:00 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-170-230.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:47:18 Cosman246: http://www.captainsquid.com/go/UniqueDemotivator.jpg 04:48:08 Compatibility with CL is what will kill lisp. 04:48:29 The reason that lisps evolved quickly and innovatively was that they eshewed that kind of thinking. 04:48:54 Since CL, there has been very little forward progress except by those that ignored CL compatibility. 04:49:03 bbiab 04:49:43 if anything, a real standard on basic OS things like processes, sockets, etc would be a better next step 04:50:02 seeing as some of the trivial-* and other compat libraries don't have good coverage for some of the more advanced features 04:50:02 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:51:33 I see 04:52:11 Makes sense 04:52:21 *Cosman246* goes back to musing 04:52:42 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-4.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:59 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:54:57 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 04:58:54 In my opinion, you can go two ways - either work on CL - build interop libraries for modern operating systems, or develop new variants of Lisp., e.g., Kernel. 04:59:24 rocleus [~forrest@cpe-76-187-13-203.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:59:46 RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-66-108-59-110.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:59:50 *pnathan* shrugs probably other options which I don't see 04:59:51 -!- RomyRomy is now known as AlmondButter 05:02:46 This is all theoretical 05:03:28 is there a standard command for a string version of set-difference 05:03:46 If it leads to something, I'll call it "KoiosLisp" and post it somewhere and watch as nothing gets done 05:03:56 i want to remove #\Space and #\# chars from a string 05:05:41 filter? 05:05:53 (remove-if #'(lambda (c) (or (eql c #\space) (eql c #\#))) "# foo") is one way that springs to mind. 05:06:53 rme: that was what i thought 05:07:34 adu: what is filter 05:09:19 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:09:27 well it's for lists 05:10:12 i don't see any filter in hyperspec 05:10:23 Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:24 is it a library 05:10:43 string-trim 05:10:46 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.106.43] has joined #lisp 05:11:50 adu: nope, it only trims from head and tail 05:12:05 well, i guess my only choice is remove-if 05:12:39 (remove #\Space (remove #\# x)) is shorter though 05:12:48 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:12:58 kenanb: you could probably try a regex library too; don't know how speed would compare 05:13:44 occams gilette :) i'll just use removes, no need for ueber elegance 05:26:23 aieal [~ab@208.76.203.54] has joined #lisp 05:26:41 ovechkin [~ovechkin@c-24-1-36-10.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:28 -!- aieal [~ab@208.76.203.54] has quit [Client Quit] 05:28:40 There is no way to convert a symbol to a value that is unique to that symbol, is there? For example if I wanted to implement my own hash-tables for some reason 05:29:53 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:17 jasom: you can check the source of your preferred implementation to see how they implemented hashtables 05:31:51 saint_cypher [~rjspotter@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:51 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 05:33:05 jasom: sxhash, do some math on the name, (gensym (symbol-name ...))? 05:33:07 kenanb: that probably won't be portable CL 05:33:34 Bike: 2 symbols can have the same name 05:34:11 Throw in the package too, then. 05:35:04 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:35:40 Bike: 2 uninterned symbols can have the same name 05:35:51 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:39:57 jasom: check whether its symbol-package is nil first? 05:40:12 also a symbol can be interned in multiple packages 05:40:21 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:40:22 (eq 'cl::car 'cl-user::car) 05:41:47 nm, symbol-package returns the home package, so that would work for all interned symbols 05:42:21 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:43:54 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 05:44:07 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.124.145] has joined #lisp 05:47:28 -!- rocleus [~forrest@cpe-76-187-13-203.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:49:04 rocleus [~forrest@cpe-76-187-13-203.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:49:08 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-76-183-42-9.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:51:58 -!- AlmondButter [~stickycak@cpe-66-108-59-110.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: AlmondButter] 05:52:09 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:54 -!- benny [~benny@i577A133B.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:54:57 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.237.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:55:27 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:55:34 JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 05:55:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-191-2.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:58:15 pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 05:59:38 -!- echo-area [~user@123.120.233.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:59:51 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 06:02:39 -!- pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:14:08 -!- Guest56742 [~Kron@199.91.214.37] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 06:19:29 hba [~hba@189.130.157.210] has joined #lisp 06:20:56 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:21:06 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 06:21:36 -!- rme [rme@C97F8F2F.80B03224.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Quit: rme] 06:21:36 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.135.246] has quit [Quit: rme] 06:26:45 tic [~tic@c83-249-198-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:27:36 good morning. 06:27:59 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 06:28:06 is LABEL the same as a hypothetical FLET*? 06:28:11 LABELS, even. 06:29:51 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:30:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:31:15 LET* is sequential; LABELS isn't sequential since any function can address any other 06:31:16 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 06:31:26 Labels supports recursive bindings 06:31:57 So, it isn't comparable to let or let*, but to letrec in scheme. 06:33:38 Ah, yes. The recursiveness. 06:33:58 So, it's rather LET** if that would exist. 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#lisp 09:11:35 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-28-117.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:11:39 chenbing: here is the origin of spam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE 09:15:50 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-102-3.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 09:16:49 rmathews [~roshan@59.92.8.21] has joined #lisp 09:23:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:28:00 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-18-22-120.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:08 chenbing` [~user@122.234.219.70] has joined #lisp 09:30:19 -!- chenbing [~user@122.234.219.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:31:13 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-0-61.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:31:50 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e889.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:33:39 kaffekopp [~user@c83-254-165-239.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:35:58 karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has 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hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:11 rubybliels [~rubybliel@72.129.179.93] has joined #lisp 10:03:18 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:03:20 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:03:20 Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:03:44 hkarlen [~user@c83-254-165-239.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:03:44 mathslinux [~user@183.225.176.154] has joined #lisp 10:03:45 -!- mathslinux [~user@183.225.176.154] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:04:37 -!- karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:04:44 is there an idiom to iterate a list with it's subseq starting 0, subseq starting 1, subseq starting 2 .. etc. 10:05:30 karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:05:51 osa1: one of the versions of map does that, iirc. 10:05:59 successive cdrs 10:06:53 Ralith: maplist, thanks 10:07:26 Ralith: but I don't want to collect their return values, I'm just calling some functinons with side effects 10:07:35 maybe there is a form of LOOP for that? 10:08:24 I imagine so, but I also imagine that simply ignoring the return value of maplist serves your needs just fine. 10:08:52 Ralith: found it in PCL: (loop for x on (list 10 20 30) collect x) 10:13:06 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 10:20:12 mapl doesn't collect the result 10:20:32 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:22:47 yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has joined #lisp 10:23:12 jdz [~jdz@host159-71-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:25:44 silver [~kingrat@178.121.157.73] has joined #lisp 10:27:45 vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 10:32:47 -!- vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: vervic] 10:35:12 leo2007 [~leo@124.72.163.37] has joined #lisp 10:37:41 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-73-37.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:39:55 -!- EyesIsAsleep is now known as EyesIsServer 10:41:35 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:43:52 -!- ovechkin [~ovechkin@c-24-1-36-10.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:52:24 -!- rubybliels [~rubybliel@72.129.179.93] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:55:11 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-410415.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:01:09 -!- silver [~kingrat@178.121.157.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:01:39 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:02:26 -!- jdz [~jdz@host159-71-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:06:09 why does (loop for x on #(1 2 3) collect x) return nil? 11:08:05 for-on is for lists, not arrays 11:08:25 though I'd have personally expected some sort of error on that 11:09:12 Phoodus: how can I iterate vectors with loop? 11:09:15 put a (format t ..) in there and you'll see that loop has no iteration step 11:09:58 loop for x across #(...) 11:10:01 (loop for x across #(1 2 3) collect x) 11:10:26 (loop for i in (length #(1 2 3)) for x = (subseq #(1 2 3) i) collect x) 11:10:52 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082A692.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:57 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:12:04 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5B326DBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:14:11 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 11:14:25 silver [~kingrat@178.121.98.35] has joined #lisp 11:15:01 I don't see anything in cursory reading of the loop spec that talks about type errors for the various for clauses 11:15:22 is it up to the implementation as to what to do? 11:16:49 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:18:19 Yes. But the syntax gives hints: for-as-across::= var [type-spec] across VECTOR 11:18:25 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.42.114.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:19:29 Guthur [~user@host86-150-22-39.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:21:31 bohl [~bohl@p4FF7E938.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:22:00 How to define a function which takes one argument "x" and returns x? 11:22:17 (defun f (x) x) 11:22:28 bohl: also, identity does that. 11:22:29 #'identity :-P 11:22:56 Unless you meant: (defun f (name) (intern name)) ; also, intern does that. 11:23:29 gaidal [~gaidal@59.42.114.103] has joined #lisp 11:23:41 add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-3-121.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 11:24:09 pjb: I was trying this (it doesn't work): (defvar closure (let ((state 0)) (lambda () (state)))) 11:24:46 defvar defines a special variable. If you don't want to spend half a day debugging strange bugs, the advice is to name the special variable with stars around: (defvar *closure* ...) 11:25:05 state is a lexical variable, not a function. You cannot call it. Therefore write state, not (state). 11:25:15 (defvar *closure* (let ((state 0)) (lambda () state))) 11:25:18 (funcall *closure*) 11:25:20 pjb: sorry, I just realized it doesn't have much to do with the original question. Also, sorry to forget the earmuffs 11:28:48 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 11:29:29 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.42.114.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:30:08 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-6-171.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:34:43 -!- rmathews [~roshan@59.92.8.21] has quit [Quit: ...] 11:38:37 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 11:39:15 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:41:26 The following line defines a closure named *closure*: (defvar *closure* (let ((state 0)) (lambda () state))) How to define an "identical" closure *closure1* without repeating nearly the whole line? 11:42:58 write a make-closure function 11:43:00 or maybe this example is a bit more interesting: defvar *closure* (let ((state 0)) (lambda () (setf state (1+ state)))) 11:43:07 bohl: not sure what you mean, but what about a Higher order functino 11:43:08 -!- hkarlen [~user@c83-254-165-239.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:43:17 basically what kennyd said 11:45:32 bohl: (setf x (1+ x)) == (incf x) 11:46:30 pjb: to fair he is probably trying to familiarise himself with closure concept 11:46:40 bohl: (defun my-constantly (value) (lambda () value)) 11:46:55 Guthur: also constantly does it... 11:47:01 s/Guthur/bohl/ 11:47:19 Guthur: nonetheless, you can also learn little details along. 11:47:27 truesay 11:49:58 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:54:44 (defvar *make-closure* (lambda (state) (lambda () (setf state (1+ state))))) 11:56:57 (defun make-incrementer (state) (lambda () (incf state))) (defvar *i1* (make-incrementer 0)) (defvar *i10* (make-incrementer 10)) 11:57:53 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-248-14.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:59:08 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-170-230.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:59:24 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-170-230.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:00:15 -!- gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-179-45-189.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:00:45 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:00:54 The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:42 bjonnh [~bjonnh@2a01:e35:2420:ea0:21e:64ff:fe84:8986] has joined #lisp 12:02:32 _joey [~joey@175.36.47.151] has joined #lisp 12:05:07 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:06:34 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 12:07:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:12:30 jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:12:48 *Xach* loves filing bugs at 7am on Saturdays! 12:14:46 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 12:18:26 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:18:34 -!- bohl [~bohl@p4FF7E938.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:19:27 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:23:19 bubo [~bubo@91-114-178-53.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:24:34 smells like victory 12:32:46 leave no where for them to hide 12:33:47 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:34:43 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:41:34 Blkt [~user@82.84.176.4] has joined #lisp 12:43:28 good afternoon everyone 12:47:09 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 12:54:42 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:01:31 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 13:03:46 ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 13:04:29 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:05:02 rmathews [~roshan@59.92.79.205] has joined #lisp 13:05:05 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:06:12 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-409824.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:07:10 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129130065.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 13:09:19 Recommendations for parsing Turtle/N3 RDF in Lisp? 13:11:46 easye: we custom built something on the fly for n3, haven't parsed turtle 13:11:56 though the extensions for turnle should be trivial 13:12:33 easye: if it's something you need on the long run, i can likely pull it out in a separate library, but in the short run that may not be feasible, it's quite hackish as it is. 13:13:43 easye: but for n3: parse your namespaces (if you're going to have files with namespaces) and then simple parse each triple. you have some basic knowledge about the triple: the subject and the predicate will never be primitives, thatkind-of helps. 13:13:56 -!- bubo [~bubo@91-114-178-53.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has left #lisp 13:13:57 (and they're not called primitives in the semantic web, but i keep forgetting the original name) 13:14:30 turtle is slightly more complex, but it shouldn't be too much work either, i guess. 13:15:23 easye: if you'd have/build/find a library, it would be cool if you'd tell me about it :) 13:17:05 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Reboot] 13:22:10 rudi [~rudi@cm-84.208.89.228.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 13:26:06 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.193.184] has quit [Quit: tensorpudding] 13:26:23 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.193.184] has joined #lisp 13:28:49 -!- drdo [~drdo@ling0.drdo.eu] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 13:32:15 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-57-94.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:32:26 -!- karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 13:40:36 6.001 is dead, long live to 6.S184! http://web.mit.edu/alexmv/6.S184/ 13:41:21 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:04 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:48:01 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-231-117.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:48:13 madnificent: Will do. 13:48:48 *easye* is wondering that if he wrote a readtable that could parse N3, could Parenscript compile it into bog-standard JavaScript? 13:51:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:53:01 karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:53:02 -!- chenbing` [~user@122.234.219.70] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:55:46 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:55:53 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:45 easye: i don't think parenscript understands a read-table. if you build the correct abstraction layer you may be able to use the same logic for your javascript library and your lisp code 14:00:04 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.193.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:03:35 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:14:23 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 14:14:25 lonewolf8 [~lonewolf8@unaffiliated/technocratamit] has joined #lisp 14:14:32 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:14 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:34 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 14:19:44 pnq [~nick@AC812E36.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 14:20:02 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:21:13 rmathews_ [~roshan@59.92.18.39] has joined #lisp 14:21:41 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:21:53 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:22:25 -!- lonewolf8 [~lonewolf8@unaffiliated/technocratamit] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 14:23:28 -!- rmathews [~roshan@59.92.79.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:23:29 -!- rmathews_ is now known as rmathews 14:29:08 yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has joined #lisp 14:39:40 -!- bsamograd [~user@184.71.240.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:41:30 diginet [~user@ppp-69-153-136-120.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:59 hi guys...so I was reading somewhere on the internet, that someone claimed that Lisp isn't actually function at all, is that even true? 14:42:09 *functional 14:42:26 http://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap5.html 14:43:05 is kira around? I have something she might be interested in 14:43:24 oh woops 14:43:28 wrong windows :( 14:44:02 dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 14:45:09 anyway, is the stuff on that page accurate? 14:45:20 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:48:28 depends on the definition of functional. 14:49:49 if the defintion of a function is like in math, without side-effects, thenlisp is not functional 14:50:33 is that hard to make a pure function in lisp ? 14:51:02 kilon: don't use nconc setf and co. 14:51:09 no, it isn't, but it is also npot hard to makesideeffects 14:51:09 karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:51:42 i think not calling lisp functional is like not calling python object orientated 14:52:41 kilon: I don't. I use (setf abc ) all the time. 14:52:51 where abc is a dynamic variable. 14:52:58 I realize Lisp isn't purely functional, but that's different from saying it's the antithesis of functional 14:53:00 just because lisp allows freedome of thinking (as python allow procedural programming) dont know why people would consider it non functional by default 14:53:09 yeah exactly 14:53:11 Lisp is just not Purely Functional 14:53:15 of course 14:53:16 -!- karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:53:26 but it is in the functional family 14:53:28 well s/Lisp/Common Lisp 14:53:35 i think you mean its not function only 14:53:59 I have a question, what does the s/word/word notation mean? Is that a newish thing? 14:54:04 i should i say exclusively functional 14:54:10 -!- pnq [~nick@AC812E36.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:54:10 oh, ...substitution 14:54:17 kilon: Purely Functional is a well known definition of languages like Haskell, afaict 14:54:27 Don't forget LispKit! 14:54:44 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:54:56 Guthur: i realise that, but to me just does not sound right... i think my pure they mean exclusive 14:55:00 *by 14:55:10 *sykopomp* just thinks of Lisp as a language meant for getting things done. 14:55:10 yeah, probably 14:55:23 because i dont see anything stoping lisp from being purely functional 14:55:25 *eMBee* found lisp to be more open to other paradigms (procedural, object oriented) than he initially thought. if you define the functionality of a language by how mich non-functional programming it supports then lisp doesn't come out much more functional than other languages 14:55:27 sykopomp: hehe. so do I. 14:55:28 if the coder choose to do so 14:55:35 kilon: Yes, by pure they mean exclusive. It is "pure" because it isn't contaminated by mutation. 14:56:27 sellout: yes I realise that, but to me , though a non english person, that sound like an abuse of english language (which I have been charged for many times :D) 14:56:30 kilon: Well, it's hard to write a purely functional Lisp program that does much  EG, using IO? You lose. 14:57:09 isnt functional programming anyway utopic ? 14:57:14 Well, keep in mind, while one could write in a very procedural style in Lisp, I gather most use something in the middle of either extreme 14:57:23 kilon: utopic? 14:57:32 diginet: exactly. 14:57:39 there's some things about purity that I think, in theory, may be nice, but I'm just not sure. 14:57:40 Lisp is more conducive to functional style programming than C, or Pascal, or Fortran to take an extreme example 14:58:08 sorry i try to translate greek here sellout "utopic" is a greek word meaning anything related to utopia ("dream world, ideal world") 14:58:15 diginet: that's where I agree with sykopomp: you use whatever style is the most expressive for the problem you're solving. 14:58:28 i thought it was english too... apparently it is not 14:58:30 like, I'm starting to learn Erlang, and I'm wondering if it would be possible to, through a bit of programmer discipline, get the same benefits 14:58:37 that's why I've become less LOOP averse lately: it seems to be very expressive for the loops that I need to write. 14:58:41 Well, there's a quote, I forget where, but that said "the only thing that pure functional programming can do is raise the temperature of a CPU" 14:58:55 obviously an exagerration 14:59:00 kilon: Do you also mean to imply that it's unachievable, or just that it's the ideal? 14:59:08 the book I read say its impossible to have no side effects inside code. 14:59:22 kilon: Well, that's what monads give you. 14:59:24 sellout: the firtst 14:59:25 yeah, computers by definition work on the concept of state 14:59:29 *first 14:59:36 For example, Lisp may have side-effects, but I generally write code in such a way that I'm not relying on altering data structures and variables. At the same time, I like the freedom to, in small places, use side-effects. 14:59:46 well, here's the way I think of it 14:59:47 have not studied nomads yet, will look into it 15:00:03 (map-into (make-string *length*) (lambda () (random-elt +alphanum+))) for example. 15:00:26 -!- ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:00:28 sykopomp: and then you store the result, using the non-functional-state-changing properties of lisp 15:00:36 I work the same way. 15:00:56 but it still makes you wonder what the real benefits are of bondage and discipline. 15:01:33 give academics something to write about 15:01:35 ? 15:01:47 I still find it hard to understand why a computer going "Bing" makes the code buggy 15:01:48 like, the only situation I can think of where changing variables has caused me problems is when generating closures inside LOOP with the :FOR clause. 15:01:49 sykopomp: parallelism that works ;) 15:02:09 I tend to think of this analogy when programming, if I'm going to build a house, it's better for me to develop an idea of how one build's a house, and then enact that plan, rather than mindlessly carry out someone else's plans and not get what I'm doing. Obviously in the end, the result is the same in that a house is built, the environment is altered, but in the former I have more abstraction for the specifics, and more understanding. 15:02:10 In the same manner, I like to define the mathematics of whatever I'm trying to do, and then evaluate the functions and store the result, rather than explicitly using state to do so 15:02:13 does that make any sense? 15:02:15 I understand why globals are bad, but I dont see all side effect as a problem 15:02:15 sellout: the thing is, even Erlang has shared state, in practice. 15:02:32 so if even *erlang* relies on discipline, why can't a Lisp program, you know? 15:02:44 I do though love the idea of very small functions 15:03:09 I also firmly believe programmers are consenting adults, and bad people will write bad code no matter how many walls you put in front of them. 15:03:19 sykopomp: I don't really consider actors good parallelism. 15:03:57 sellout: why so? It seems like a really good approach. It scales beyond a single process, relatively transparently. 15:04:25 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:04:49 *sykopomp* needs to head out. 15:05:00 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 15:05:16 For instance, I might define a function f(x), and then write a program which says to evaluate f(x) for some x, and store the result. If f(x)=2x+1 writing this procedurally would be like, "Load X into register, multiply register, increment register by 1, store in memory location." This is to tied to the specifics of the environment, and obsfucates and scatters the math with procedure 15:05:41 sykopomp: There are a few problems  one is that it makes no distinction between co-located and distributed processes. 15:06:02 Which is necessary because they have different failure modes. Steele has a good paper on that, which I should have somewhere. 15:06:36 sellout: Oh yes, that sounds fascinating. I was under the impression that not having that distinction was exactly what helped it scale to multiple (real) processes :) 15:06:37 sellout: If you have a link handy I would be interested in reading that 15:06:48 the steele paper 15:07:12 I really like LispKit, that is a neat language 15:07:23 sykopomp: No, there are things like component-based process calculi (ambient calculi, kell calculus, etc.) that handle it much better. 15:08:06 Guthur: Looking now. 15:08:11 cool cheers 15:08:37 Process calculi are really interesting 15:09:00 I like pi-calculus a lot/CSP (I forget the distinction if one exists) 15:12:07 C, Pascal and Fortran can be used in a functionnal style as easily as lisp, if you use a garbage collector and don't need closures. 15:13:02 int f(int x){ return x==1?1:x*f(x-1); } is as functional as (defun f (x) (if (= x 1) 1 (* x (f (1- x))))) 15:13:40 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:13 ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:15:03 kilon: a computer going "Bing" doesn't make the code buggy, but functional language advocatess claim that code without sideeffects can be proven to be correct, whereas with sideeffects such a proof is not really possible. 15:15:39 gaidal [~gaidal@59.42.114.103] has joined #lisp 15:16:08 tell that to Dijkstra, Hoare, and the others who worked out proof systems for imperative code 15:16:14 bugfree code in pure functional style is certainly more feasible 15:16:19 at least, in my experience 15:17:00 functional style + REPL + readable syntax for input data is infinitely more testable 15:17:00 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.42.114.103] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:17:13 rudi: iirc they were proving code in imperative style, but without array or pointers. 15:17:48 diginet: I made this for a process calculi project (still in progress): http://technomadic.org/computation/index.php?title=Graph_of_expressivity  but yes, CSP and pi are different. 15:17:49 yep, for aliasing you need separation logic, dynamic logic or some other newer stuff 15:18:15 eMBee: indeed, with functional code, I never know where to put my pre/post-conditions. 15:18:24 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:18:25 rudi: I don't think anyone is saying it is impossible (I'm not at least) it;s just that as I understand it the theory of formal proofs is more more well understood for functions rather than procedures 15:19:19 pnq [~nick@ACA37935.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:19:37 eMBee was saying something like that, that's why I jumped in :) 15:19:50 sellout: thanks for the link! That's actually really /helpful/. Sometimes navigating complex/varied subjects is hard and intimidating 15:19:54 I'm not arguing that it's easy, or standard practice, or that the tools are mature 15:20:00 oh, yeah of course 15:20:41 anonus: your wish has been granted, defpackage special indentation is in hg 15:20:45 diginet: There are links on that image (both edges and vertices), but at least in my browser they don't line up properly unless you view the image in its own page. 15:20:54 duly noted :) 15:21:13 flip215: cool, thanks! 15:21:13 *eMBee* just recently read an interview with the creators of haskell, need to reread that, maybe they didn't make asstrog aclaimas i remember, but theycertainly emphasized theeasier provability of sideffectfree code 15:21:40 maybe they didn't make as strong a claim ... 15:22:02 I've been really interested in dataflow programming as of late. My favourite part about it is that optimization is seemingly more or less isomorphic to graph reduction 15:22:05 I'll buy "easier". 15:23:21 yeah, informally easier, but saying it is intrinsically more difficult for reasons other than the current state of our understanding of computational theory would seem to violate the equality of all turing-complete models of computation 15:25:39 there's the aliasing problem ... as soon as you can mutate data structures, things get hairy 15:25:56 because then you can have hidden effects, like "I cut A and B starts bleeding" 15:26:29 that's more prevalent in OO and imperative languages, that's why people say they are more difficult to prove correct 15:27:52 Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.214.37] has joined #lisp 15:33:16 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:01 Guthur: I can't seem to find that paper. Maybe I was wrong about it being Steele. Still looking, though. 15:38:48 sellout: was it "a note on distributed computing" perhaps? 15:38:53 icrazyhack [horieyui@222.47.125.36] has joined #lisp 15:39:02 classic sun paper, but not by steele 15:40:51 rudi: That might be it, but I can't seem to get the full paper, so I'm not sure. 15:41:09 sellout: ok, cheers 15:42:32 rudi: the kendall on I assume 15:42:36 on/one 15:42:44 1994 15:42:50 yes 15:46:45 http://labs.oracle.com/techrep/1994/smli_tr-94-29.pdf looks likethe full paper 15:47:17 *sellout* hugs eMBee 15:47:21 Yep, that's the one. 15:47:37 *sellout* apologizes for bringing Steele into this. 15:47:39 centipedefarmer_ [~centipede@75-162-52-240.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:53 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:48:07 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #lisp 15:48:38 http://labs.oracle.com/techrep/1994/abstract-29.html 15:50:03 -!- icrazyhack [horieyui@222.47.125.36] has quit [Quit: http://www.cnblogs.com/crazyhack] 15:53:14 spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.51.149] has joined #lisp 15:54:01 -!- cow-orker [~foobar@pogostick.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58:02 ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 15:58:02 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 15:59:10 rme [~rme@50.43.135.246] has joined #lisp 16:03:42 pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 16:05:34 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p57AD75AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:29 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:54 setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:11:32 -!- ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:14:47 The repl of movitz is strange. When I type (+ 1 2) it answers with > ; how should it be used? 16:17:02 is movitz under active development 16:17:20 Yes. 16:17:52 RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-74-66-9-106.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:17:54 For an implementation of a language taking its roots 50 years ago, it's quite active. 16:18:15 ah, relatively speaking then 16:18:21 -!- ltaoist [~mo@113.94.105.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:18:41 I wanted to play with a processor (with qemu), but instead of entering hexadecimal, I said to myself, why not boot Movitz? 16:19:29 -!- literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:20:32 literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has joined #lisp 16:20:35 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:20:52 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 16:21:25 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-74-66-9-106.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:24:08 I wish I had time to hack on bare metal stuff 16:26:29 rocleus [~forrest@cpe-76-187-13-203.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:40 ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 16:26:42 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-409824.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:11 Guthur: either buy a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KIM-1 or use qemu :-) 16:29:21 pjb-: I do plan to get one of the raspberry pi when they go on sale 16:29:30 should be sometime within the next month 16:29:57 http://www.raspberrypi.org/ 16:30:21 that KIM-1 reminded me a little of it 16:30:52 ehu` [~erik@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:35:11 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 16:36:23 ngz [~user@23.78.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:50 pjb- have you tried (print (+ 1 2))? just a random idea 16:37:53 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 16:38:35 There seems to be a bug, simple-read-delimited-list gets #\) "(+ 1 2)" but it still signals the missing-delimiter condition... 16:38:47 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.51.149] has left #lisp 16:40:59 oh 16:41:16 It does the Same in ccl so it's not a bug in Movitz Lisp, it must be in muerte:simple-read-delimited-list. 16:41:16 16:42:22 does anyone know how to make :everything in cl-ppcre's parse tree's match new line characters? 16:43:13 osa1: you can't. 16:43:37 Use the equivalent of ".|\n" 16:44:05 How can we tell slime to use another inferior process? 16:44:43 Why isn't slime-set-inferior-process a command? 16:46:18 pjb-: I assume you are doing something different than just connecting to another swank 16:46:48 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:47:39 slime-cycle-connection seems to work, but it's flaky. I'd prevert to tell it what connection to use. 16:47:59 s/v/f/ 16:48:04 s/t// 16:49:20 running those commands on your last message would not have helped, hehe 16:49:32 s/pervert/prefer 16:50:04 heh 16:50:08 bah! :-) 16:52:28 ddp_ [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 16:52:29 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-046-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:46 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:58:50 Guthur: your repl is dyslexic, you are transposing an re to er either during reading or writing 17:04:09 eMBee: in deed 17:04:17 indeed* 17:05:02 morning 17:05:21 -!- pnathan [~Adium@76.178.163.60] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:05:58 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:08:39 pnathan [~Adium@76.178.163.60] has joined #lisp 17:09:25 -!- pnathan [~Adium@76.178.163.60] has quit [Client Quit] 17:12:17 -!- _joey [~joey@175.36.47.151] has left #lisp 17:14:51 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-383937.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:21:43 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-046-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:26:45 PooBuck [PooBuck@burnje.ws] has joined #lisp 17:26:47 Hai! I am a gay male currently with a loving and sexually adventurous partner. However, all of my straight friends are like the guys from the Big Bang Theory, so in our group I am the only one getting laid. I was wondering if there are any hot chicks here on IRC who would love to date a charming and handsome guy who is a whizz at math and science. Any straight guys here active on the dating scene who can give some pointers for how my straight buddies can pick 17:26:47 up hot chicks? PLEASE HELP! MY FRIENDS ARE GETTING DESPERATE! 17:29:22 NihilistDandy [~NihilistD@stu-147-155-171-184.champlain.edu] has joined #lisp 17:29:27 huh, a spammer on irc, that's a rare sight 17:29:32 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 17:29:34 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*PooBuck@burnje.ws 17:29:37 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 17:30:20 -!- ddp_ [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30:41 was that supposed to kick him? 17:30:44 No. 17:30:58 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:31:12 I see 17:32:03 RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-74-66-9-106.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:03 xach islike that unsuspecting guy hidden under a cloak, then suddenly he opens the cloak and pulls out a lightsaber to defend his friends from inappropriate advances 17:33:07 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 17:33:39 anonus: done by Tamás, redirect your good wishes ;) 17:34:26 flip215: thx, welcome everytime 17:35:00 -!- PooBuck [PooBuck@burnje.ws] has quit [K-Lined] 17:35:21 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-248-14.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:35:25 hope that i learn vim language and some time after can help with development 17:36:48 is my ircclient getting messages in the wrong order? it seems like "18:33 flip215: anonus: done by Tamás, redirect your good wishes ;)" is a response to "18:34 anonus: flip215: thx, welcome everytime" 17:37:40 kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-231-117.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 17:37:45 eMBee: never mind, I answered to a line 4 hours earlier .... but that would be a nice feature ;) 17:38:01 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 17:38:33 oh, ok, i suspected as much, but i dcouldn't resist asking :-) 17:40:57 -!- rudi [~rudi@cm-84.208.89.228.getinternet.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 17:41:26 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-74-66-9-106.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 17:42:31 at least that's a neat idea for Apr 1st ... hacking an IRC server to do something like that 17:42:46 -!- msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has quit [Quit: msponge] 17:42:57 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:20 Or delay all message by a sizeable delay, arguing they must past muster by the newly enacted federal censure bureau. 17:43:53 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-248-14.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:45:24 (how about rejecting all messages that aren't proper lisp forms? :-) 17:45:55 ddp_ [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 17:47:30 eMBee: ok, so we have already two April 1st covered. 17:48:01 djuber [~djuber@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:26 pdponze [~pierre@144.85.122.52] has joined #lisp 17:50:13 just reverse all words ... the famous "repun umop" joke ;) 17:51:27 Arguing that due to danger of copyright infringement, the packets must pass thru australian servers instead of US, right. 17:52:16 flip215: i've sent another report to tamas and include my little patch :3 17:52:30 fine! soon he'll be buried in patches ;) 17:52:49 it's good, isn't it? %) 17:53:14 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:53:49 only until his patience gives (because people are pulling in 10 different directions) 17:55:38 well the main thing that they should send patches, not just asking and begging %) 17:56:25 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:28 -!- djuber [~djuber@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.1] 17:58:50 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA37935.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:58:52 djuber [~djuber@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:16 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 18:04:36 Buglouse [~weechat@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:05:02 -!- Buglouse is now known as Guest25910 18:05:46 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:06:40 Guthur: I'm seriously considering to place a raspberry pi in my car 18:06:55 Guthur: i'll probably need more than one 18:08:41 madnificent: I'm a little disappointed that it is only the lesser version available initially 18:09:15 -!- leo2007 [~leo@124.72.163.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:09:21 Guthur: enlighten me 18:11:42 there is two versions, Model A and B, Model B has twice the memory and an ethernet adapter 18:12:14 128MB and 256MB respectively 18:12:25 ah yeah right, i didn't know it lacked the ethernet adapter (i think i'll need that in the near future) 18:13:22 Guthur: any idea what the gertboard will cost? 18:13:27 the extra memory should make running Lisps a little more palatable as well 18:14:05 madnificent: Haven't seen any figures yet 18:14:07 128MB should be enough for handling car things :) 18:14:16 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:15:00 madnificent: I'm interested in teaching young people computer programming with the boards 18:15:12 hahaha LoL 18:15:19 So I want to be able to run a Lisp environment 18:15:26 hey, how do you get lisp running: "here's a board kid, plug it into your computer" 18:15:28 possibly Dr Racket 18:15:59 emacs + sbcl should easily fit within 256MB 18:16:02 gorthaur [~Thauron@88-134-184-94-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:16:20 same with abcl. 18:16:28 juck java 18:16:28 madnificent: that's my other preference 18:16:37 madnificent: no lisp. 18:16:38 *madnificent* will likely be using abcl for java libraries soon 18:16:54 urandom__ [~user@p548A1E65.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:09 madnificent: with the advantage it runs on the JVM (but still no java) 18:17:27 ehu: i also think it's slower and i'm not quite sure it supports things like clx, but yeah 18:17:32 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p57AD75AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:17:35 furthermore, i don't trust the future of the jvm 18:19:39 hmm, how come (stream-line-column *debug-io*) has no method defined for two-way-stream in sbcl? 18:19:41 -!- Guest25910 [~weechat@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:19:52 does not clhs says (stream-line-column) is required? 18:20:58 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:21:22 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:45 well, on a second search it seems its not part of the spec after all 18:23:46 Hm, I wonder if someone would try to remake a computer with a 36-bit word length again 18:24:27 why would we want that? 18:24:39 coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:39 -!- coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:24:39 coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 18:24:58 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:25:05 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:12 madnificent: A word would be enough to hold a cons cell in that system, iirc 18:25:32 and 64bit computers don't allow that because? 18:25:35 they have too many bits? 18:25:56 OK, 74-bit 18:26:16 why don't 128bit processors (we have had those too, i think) work? 18:26:17 :) 18:26:35 what i'm saying is: it just depends on the amount of addressing space you want for each cell in your cons 18:27:04 pnq [~nick@AC82608F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:27:28 I wonder what the Lisp Machines used 18:28:37 sugarshark [~ole@p548850E7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:30:06 Guthur: from what i can initially find about it, it seems the gertboard might well be more expensive than the raspberry pi itself. it's also made to be soldered by the user. perhaps the components themselves are going to be extremely cheap. couldn't find that. 18:30:11 -!- ddp_ [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30:14 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:48 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:37 ddp_ [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 18:33:03 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 18:35:02 I'll probably buy a couple of Pi to start off. 18:37:35 Guthur: you may be interested in: https://gitorious.org/lambdapi 18:37:56 -!- gorthaur [~Thauron@88-134-184-94-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:40:40 okay, I have a question, but let me preface this by saying I'm not sure if this is a sore subject, and I'm not intending to implicitly support the person in question by mentioning him, but is anyone here aware of an individual who goes by the name "Xah Lee" ? 18:40:53 ratxue [~chatzilla@host-89-241-166-147.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:05 because, I was reading his sight, and I feel my brain slowly starting to explode 18:41:08 *site 18:41:36 diginet: he is well known on usenet. 18:41:54 Xah Lee is Xach not ? 18:42:00 no 18:42:04 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:42:06 oh 18:42:08 ok 18:42:20 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:59 daimrod: I gathered, I trust his reputation is, ehm less than favorable? 18:43:02 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:43:25 I wonder if you can add ram to Raspberry Pi 18:43:42 I think the banner at the top of his site says it all "If you spend more than 2 hours on the site, please pay USD $6." 18:43:46 madnificent: it's faster than clisp on some things. 18:43:59 indeed, he has wrote some nice things on emacs but not on CL. 18:44:14 madnificent: also, it supports cffi. so, if that can be made to work, I expect the same from clx 18:45:18 daimrod: it's kind of disturbing, that I find myself occassionaly agreeing with him, but his abysmal and erratic grammar, incomprehensible ranting, and general antrimonious behavious is off-putting 18:45:27 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:45:54 nialo- [~nialo@ool-18bc9772.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:16 some people get so lost in the methodology and tools they use, that in the end they completely forgot wtf they were doing, and thus become kooks 18:46:47 -!- ddp_ [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:27 few questions about macros with side-effects: is it guaranteed that if I have defclass and after that macro call in same file, macro could make instance of that class? (so defclass macro will be expanded _and_ coresponding code executed before my macro called) 18:49:38 he's also strangely obsessed with lauding mathematica as the end-all be-all 18:49:41 ehm, no thank you 18:50:17 anonus: not sure of the "by the spec" answer, but from what I remember no 18:50:30 RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-66-108-59-110.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:50:32 hmm 18:50:33 you need to wrap defclass into eval-when 18:50:35 sad 18:51:17 just do (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (defclass ...)) 18:52:09 mmm, it's not good style because i want do that in API of my lib %) 18:52:13 *maxm-* added (defc ...) rather then (def) to his definer library that does this automatically, as its a pretty common occurrence when you do a lot of macro/clos trickery 18:53:00 -!- jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:53:01 -!- pnq [~nick@AC82608F.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:53:57 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-219.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:54:12 maxm-: in simple words, do you just suggest to define my own defclass for my library? 18:54:23 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.232.148.219] has joined #lisp 18:55:12 yes, (defmacro defclass-now `(eval-when .... )) 18:55:52 i think about that, thanks 18:56:00 think about it this way, when you do "compile-file", it compiles the code, but does not load or execute it. So the defclass form is compiled, but the class itself will only be defined when file is loaded, or directly executed 18:56:05 eMBee: cool 18:56:22 shame someone beat me to it, would liked to have done something like that 18:56:42 (defmacro) kind of have eval-when built-in, because spec says that (defmacro) must be accessible to the functions in the same file that come later, so defmacro is equivalent of having its own (eval-when (:compile-toplevel)) 18:56:54 madnificent: the gert board will probably not be able to take advantage of the economies of scale 18:57:18 but if your macro is using your class, the class either needs be inside of eval-when, or in a file that was loaded before 18:59:34 maxm-: thanks for explanation 19:00:42 maxm-: another trivial question (just to clear things): everything that i do in macro as side-effects will be accessable in "runtime" ? 19:01:09 yes, but not only at runtime, but also at compile time 19:01:42 at compile time of course, i know 19:02:10 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.232.148.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:02:17 well actually, its probably system dependent and I'm wrong about SBCL 19:02:27 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.232.148.219] has joined #lisp 19:02:43 SBCL will execute the macro when file is compiled, so when file is later loaded, side effects would be gone 19:03:08 unless macro returned the form, that has any constants or such referering the side effected data 19:03:25 mmm 19:03:32 (defmacro whatever() (setq *global* t) `(return some form)) 19:03:51 when you compile a file that has (whatever ), *global* gets set to t 19:03:55 ddp_ [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 19:04:29 -!- ddp_ [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:04:41 ok, have you an idea who to do thing like that: (defmacro def-my-thing (name ...) (push name *my-things*) ...) ? 19:04:48 but if you reset *global* back to nil, then load the file you just compiled (as fasl), then *global* will remain nil, at least under SBCL i think 19:04:50 s/who/how/ 19:05:45 -!- osa1 [~sinan@85.100.75.224] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:06:01 ddp_ [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 19:06:16 in portable way 19:06:58 you return teh eval-when that does the side effect 19:06:59 ie 19:07:49 (defmacro def-my-thing (name) `(progn (defun ,name () ....) (eval-when (:load-toplevel :execute) (push ,name *my-things*)))) 19:08:13 note that you can return multiple top-level forms from the macro 19:08:20 if they are wrapped into (progn) 19:08:27 omg 19:08:46 osa1 [~sinan@78.175.222.197] has joined #lisp 19:08:52 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 19:08:53 moment, i'll try to understand that 19:09:52 basically think about how your expanded code would look in the file.. If you were doing this stuff without the macro, you would simply do (defun ....) followed by (push) right? 19:10:25 so simply make macro return these two things, wrapped in a (progn).. In fact (eval-when) around the push that I added is un-nessesary 19:10:34 so eval-when is an special operator that force evaluation of it's body before all code even it in progn? %) 19:11:25 oh, no, not un-nessesary 19:11:28 hmm 19:11:47 eval-when has a parameter, with 3 possible values, :compile-toplevel, :load-toplevel and :execute) 19:11:59 second problem grows 19:12:13 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-18bc9772.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:12:23 i want to use *my-things* both in compile and in runtime 19:12:53 ok, then you wrap it into (eval-when (:load-toplevel :compile-toplevel :execute)) 19:13:08 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.175.222.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:13:13 osa1__ [~sinan@78.175.223.240] has joined #lisp 19:13:30 so its like that: (defmacro def-my-thing (...) ) ... (defmacro def-thing-bind (thing ...) ( ... take thing from *my-things* and do something )) 19:14:13 I have (defmacro eval-always (&dbody form) `(eval-when (:load-toplevel :compile-toplevel :execute) ,@form)), makes it easier 19:14:34 so if it wrapped in eval-when - it is guaranted that i can use it both in runtime and compile time and no unknown effects will appear? %) 19:15:01 anonus: in your example you need to do your (push) inside of eval-always, that includes :compile-toplevel 19:15:26 -!- ratxue [~chatzilla@host-89-241-166-147.as13285.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:39 -!- osa1__ [~sinan@78.175.223.240] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:15:59 ie: (defmacro def-my-thing (name) ... `(progn (whatever, ie defun or such) (eval-always (push ,name *my-things*)))) 19:16:24 then in the next (defmacro def-thing-bind () *my-things*) will have it 19:17:36 osa1__ [~sinan@78.176.255.69] has joined #lisp 19:17:43 -!- rocleus [~forrest@cpe-76-187-13-203.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rocleus] 19:17:44 is eval-when in def-thing-bind not necessary ? 19:18:04 anonus: answer is yes, if you wrapped it into eval-always (all 3 things), is guaranteed to be executed in all 3 cases, of just compiling the file that contains it, loading source .lisp file that has it, or loading the compiled 'fasl file 19:18:35 -!- ddp_ [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:05 it cannot get so it will be added multiple times? %) 19:20:10 i mean (push name *my-things*) 19:20:20 eval-when will get executed just once, but yes if you for example compile a file that does the (push ,name *my-things*) two times, you'll get a duplicate 19:20:52 nialo- [~nialo@ool-18bc9772.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:07 usually ppl do a hash table, or just do (if (already there) (update) (push ...)) 19:21:22 no, i mean can eval-when execute it's body multiple times 19:21:28 ? 19:21:39 but i think you answered my question 19:21:46 no it will only execute it once, no matter the context.. The condition to eval-when is treated as "OR" expression 19:21:57 well actually hold 19:22:24 it will execute it once when you compile, but if you compile and load, it will execute it twice, once for compile and once for load 19:22:40 omg 19:23:05 i should use my brain then %) 19:23:27 just put this into a file like test.lisp 19:23:28 (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (print "Hey there")) 19:23:38 ikki [~ikki@189.247.103.164] has joined #lisp 19:23:55 then compare (compile-file "test.lisp") vs C-c C-k from slime 19:24:11 maybe it is possible to do wihtout that mess %) 19:24:16 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-248-14.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:24:46 i think if it will be executed only once in sbcl there is no guarantee that it will not be executed multiple times on another implementation 19:24:52 juts use (defvar *my-things* (make-hash-table)) and use (setf (gethash ,name *my-things*) 'wahtever) instead of push 19:25:41 it's not the only side effect i want to use, so it can create a lot more problems if it will be executed multimple times 19:26:38 of course i can create something like *already-executed* var, but I'd better thing again about architecture %) 19:27:30 I'm happy: LinGO Grammar Matrix uses CL 19:28:15 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.232.148.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:28:15 And something called "tdl" 19:28:29 maxm-- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:34 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.232.148.219] has joined #lisp 19:28:48 msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has joined #lisp 19:29:01 -!- maxm- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:29:17 if you asked anything else I missed it, connection glitched 19:32:17 I have a few interrelated questions: What are other reasonable techniques that could be used to represent lists? Does the cons cell have any intrinsic benefit over those? What about pitfalls? 19:32:53 maxm--: nope, i just said that it can make a lot more problems, so i'd better think again before trying to implement that 19:34:24 diginet its kind of historical IMHO. From what I remember lisp machines had actual lists stored in a vector type structure, with car/cdr etc simulated 19:35:12 but since CL includes arrays, its obsolete to optimize lists, can just as well leave them alone, as cons based lists are great for rapid development, and you can always go arrays for critical pieces 19:35:24 -!- pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:36:15 *maxm--* implemented a mini-sexp library in STL, by using std::vector and it worked just as well 19:36:30 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.176.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:36:32 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:54 But (short) lists are actually very fast. 19:38:03 What I'm asking is whether the nested linked list is intrinsically more powerful than other representations of lists? 19:38:48 is i understand right that cons is equivalent to C's struct { void * left, void * right } ? 19:39:05 depends on usage. If you do a lot of splicing, etc then yes. If do a lot of sequence scanning type operations, then no 19:39:30 anonus: yup 19:40:20 its the easiest to bootstrap, all you need is (make-cell), two accessors, magic value for NIL, and you can bootstrap the rest 19:42:45 well I asked, because I've been reading about LispKit as of late, which is a purely functional Lisp with only three datatypes: atoms, numbers, and lists iirc 19:43:01 so you build all datastructures out of nested lists 19:43:12 ddp_ [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 19:44:11 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:23 nothing wrong with it, altho a bit wasteful if you have a lot of string data 19:44:42 timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.231.174] has joined #lisp 19:44:54 diginet: I pretty much learned to ignore any lisp stuff that is not CL 19:45:26 why? 19:45:28 its interesting yes, but in the end you realize you wasted your time, and have done nothing you can practically use. 19:45:41 I'm not interested in practicality though 19:45:50 I'm exploring the theory 19:45:51 lisp is either Emacs or CL, otherwise you just dicking around 19:46:19 its my personal opinion of course, please don't be offended 19:46:27 well, I don't like scheme, but...I really like the idea of a pure functional language, but I don't really like Haskell 19:46:34 oh, none take :) 19:47:09 diginet: have you seen template haskell? :3 19:47:33 well, specifically I was thinking of trying to design a simple Lisp machine, just for the learning experience, obviously CL is too unwieldy, so I thought something smaller would be better. LispKit is perfect for this 19:47:39 anonus: no? what's that? 19:48:22 diginet: ooo, this is a attempt to implement compile time macros in haskell 19:48:50 if you don't like haskell, look at template haskell - after that you will HATE IT %) 19:50:01 *offtopic mode off* 19:50:18 diginet: CL is not unwieldly for a homebrew lisp machine. Check Movitz! 19:50:26 http://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/ 19:50:59 pjb: I've seen motivz 19:51:13 I'm saying Lisp as the instruction set of a machine (or an ISA which maps well to it) 19:51:28 implementing all of CL directly would be ridiculous 19:52:14 Sure. In Hardware you would implement only a few primitives, like CAR, CDR, CONS and the garbage collector :-) 19:52:59 yeah 19:53:47 so that's what I was asking, do the primitives of Lisp, specifically cons cells have any formally-proven benefit over other possibilities? 19:53:54 It seems to me they do, but I'm not sure 19:54:10 *jjkola* was able to run all xpath tests and they all passed in :invert readtable case (so cxml should now work in :invert readtable case) 19:55:38 diginet: take a VM based lisp implementation, and instrument the VM to see what instruction and what function is used/called more often (on typical lisp programs). Then implement those instructions/functions as hardware primitives. 19:55:46 diginet: You could use clisp for that. 19:55:47 I'll just have to cleanup the changes as there was added debug stuff to find out the problems 20:00:07 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: +++ATH0] 20:03:04 osa1_ [~sinan@88.240.129.169] has joined #lisp 20:03:48 -!- osa1__ [~sinan@78.176.255.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:07:33 vairav [~vairav@pfsense.hackerdojo.com] has joined #lisp 20:09:38 -!- NihilistDandy [~NihilistD@stu-147-155-171-184.champlain.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:10:29 diginet: clisp and ecl both implement VMs. I think the ECL vm only has 72 instructions. 20:10:33 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:10:43 (I think I read that somewhere) 20:10:48 emacs lisp has another VM too. 20:11:11 but not one targetted to run CL on 20:11:20 Granted. 20:13:20 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 20:13:49 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.232.148.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:14:05 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.232.148.219] has joined #lisp 20:15:14 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.232.148.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:15:34 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.232.148.219] has joined #lisp 20:15:36 I would have thought some of the 10 primitives for implementing a Lisp would be a good start 20:16:21 Guthur: I don't know. Half an hour later you should have 50 "primitives" anyways., 20:17:16 Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:01 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@99.Red-88-11-28.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 20:19:31 I think that general purpose CPUs have some much tech in them to help programs run faster that even if you could get dedicated hardware for Lisp or any language for that matter, it would be difficult to compete 20:19:41 s/some/so 20:20:25 possible part of the reason they aren't that common even though it has been looked at quite a bit 20:20:45 I think one of ARM designs had a Java processor 20:20:55 Nowadays, it would be more interesting in thinking about a PARALLEL-LISP package with primitives such as MAP that work in parallel targetting CUDA or Cell processors. 20:21:28 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 20:21:39 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:53 (map 'vector '+ (make-array 1000000 :initial-content 1) (make-array 1000000 :initial-content 2)) in O(1) mmmh! 20:22:04 (plisp:map 'vector '+ (plisp:make-array 1000000 :initial-content 1) (plisp:make-array 1000000 :initial-content 2)) in O(1) mmmh! I mean. 20:22:13 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:22:48 -!- Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:22:48 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:23:20 There was some work on exposing OpenCL via CL 20:23:57 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-10-77.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:57 which I think is a more sensible platform than CUDA, though that's just my opinion 20:24:14 not too keen on vendor specific APIs 20:24:40 granted, that's more of a side note 20:27:22 tcr1 [~tcr@78.100.53.5] has joined #lisp 20:27:33 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@78.100.53.5] has quit [Client Quit] 20:27:48 Guthur: well, your backend would target various processors just like SBCL targets both powerpc, amd and ix86. 20:28:22 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:29:09 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:29:48 codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.231.174] has joined #lisp 20:32:44 anybody know if you can send to cxml mailing list without subscribing? 20:33:44 jjkola: use gmane 20:34:01 pjb: Do you think marshalling and unmarshalling the data to and from the Stream processors prohibit a trivial solution? 20:36:24 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 20:36:47 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:54 What about marshalling the data to and from betweem RAM and registers? 20:37:10 fe[nl]ix, thanks 20:37:20 Ie. the compilers should take care of keeping the data where it is (with some implicit help from the programmer). 20:38:16 mlkith [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has joined #lisp 20:38:30 hello. am I suppose to use merge-pathnames to combine directory with filename? 20:38:36 Yes. 20:38:54 pjb: I think I started thinking of this more as something that could be implemented on top of existing implementations without much or any knowledge of said implementation's internals 20:39:13 I am getting weird results if filename has more than one dot. (merge-pathnames "/tmp/" "foo.bar.baz") => #P"/tmp/foo>.bar.baz" 20:39:39 Guthur: the normal CL package still needs to be sequential as specified. You would have to design a new PARALLEL-LISP package with new primitives and new evaluation rules. 20:40:01 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:41:18 mlkith: that is not especially weird. 20:41:18 cyb3r3li0 [~3li0@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:18 -!- cyb3r3li0 [~3li0@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:41:38 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-248-14.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:41:42 mlkith: that is ccl's syntax for escaping a . in windows namestrings. 20:41:47 pjb: certainly sound intriguing. 20:41:57 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-248-14.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:42:17 mlkith: namestring syntax is not standardized, so ccl is free to do something like that. 20:44:00 mlkith: to avoid problems, use make-pathname: 20:44:14 -!- two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:44:37 it actually works if I pass it to open. I fail to see what's the point though 20:44:42 cyb3r3li0g [~3li0@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:45 why would . need escaping 20:44:58 -!- kami` is now known as kami 20:45:44 mlkith: notice that when you use the component readers, to get conforming results, you must use :case :common too, since by default it uses :case :local... 20:46:26 mlkith: you'd need to escape #\. in namestring, because one of the dots has a special syntactic meaning when parsing them. 20:46:41 file-namestring contains NAME.TYPE 20:47:11 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:49:40 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-248-14.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:51:33 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-248-14.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:52:21 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:52:22 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.231.174] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 20:54:05 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-248-14.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:54:20 -!- timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.231.174] has quit [Quit: timepilot] 20:56:48 -!- cyb3r3li0g [~3li0@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:57:40 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-17-226.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:22 cyb3r3li0 [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:31 would somebody please try the tests for cxml-stp and report the results for me 20:59:44 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:00:45 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-105.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01:41 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-248-14.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:03:03 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:03:42 easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 21:04:03 Adlai` [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:04:48 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.232.148.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:59 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:05:00 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 21:05:03 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.232.148.219] has joined #lisp 21:05:57 cow-orker [~foobar@pogostick.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:52 would anybody care to run the tests for cxml-stp? I would like to confirm that my changes to cxml didn't brake anything (for :invert readtable case) 21:07:23 -!- djuber [~djuber@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:01 bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@ppp-94-69-176-52.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 21:11:57 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.135.246] has quit [Quit: rme] 21:14:19 -!- easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has quit [Quit: Outta here?] 21:14:57 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.193.184] has joined #lisp 21:15:32 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-039.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:15:34 Joreji_ [~thomas@u-0-039.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:15:34 Joreji__ [~thomas@u-0-039.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:22:19 night 21:22:57 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@188-67-216-1.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: Lähdössä] 21:25:27 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-66-108-59-110.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 21:28:15 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:29:48 RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-74-66-9-106.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:31:20 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@cpe-74-66-9-106.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:37:07 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-248-14.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 21:38:03 ism [~frinnn@f053221132.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:44:23 -!- bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@ppp-94-69-176-52.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:46:40 gaidal [~gaidal@59.42.114.103] has joined #lisp 21:47:15 how the hell can you do a ~d format that prints -400 as -0400 and 500 as +0500? 21:48:23 (format t "~5,'0@d" 500) prints 0+500 21:50:18 maxm--: you might have to roll your own. 21:51:13 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-3-121.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:51:46 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 21:51:58 (format t "~:[+~;-~]~4,'0d" (minusp -500) (abs -500)) 21:51:58 maxm--: print the sign and the modulus separately 21:52:00 damn 21:52:12 surprised such a simple thing did not worked :-) 21:52:12 :) 21:52:49 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:53:38 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.175] has joined #lisp 21:54:47 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:54:53 is there exist any delimited (or maybe not delimited :3) continuations library that DOESN'T use code-to-cps transformer? 21:55:35 continuations in CL will lead you to madness 21:55:53 if you think your current macro stuff is trouble, don't get into code walking 21:56:17 i don't want continuations with code walking 21:56:19 anonus: answer is no 21:56:27 i want normal continuations 21:56:28 when I implemented my cl-cilk 21:56:45 one of my first tries was "do it russian style with sledgehammer" 21:57:13 %) 21:57:34 i made an sbcl vop that takes current stack, and binding stack, saves it into the blob, then unrolls 21:57:47 and another VOP which pastes that blob on back 21:57:47 maxm--: for what it's worth I think the trouble is that if the padding character was space you'd want the +/- with the numbers (i.e. after the padding). 21:57:50 gigamonkey: hi 21:57:53 pjb: hi 21:58:01 it even worked like 4 out of 10 times for transferring continuation between threads 21:58:15 but then I got tired of ending up in LDB and learned by lesson 21:58:26 %) 21:58:53 flip215: hi, are you ++fli214 ? 21:59:00 ++flip215 21:59:14 maxm--: so no green threads in cl possible? 21:59:48 *anonus* went from erlang =/ 21:59:52 pimpollo234 [~ircap@121.Red-81-34-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:55 sz0 [~user@94.55.194.230] has joined #lisp 21:59:59 anonus: I ended up doing code rewriter (using arnesi code walker), that flattes any form into one huge (tagbody).. (rewriting any variables into one huge outer (let)) 22:00:05 ? 22:00:24 yates [c05b42bd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.91.66.189] has joined #lisp 22:00:36 %) 22:00:36 than you can have multiple entry/exit points in it, by having a (case (:entry1 (go :entry1) (:entry2 (go :entry2)))) etc 22:00:45 is there a simple-to-use (possibly integrated/internal) database for cl? 22:00:59 that is, simpler than mysql or postregsl 22:00:59 yates: cl-store 22:01:10 maxm--: ah - thanks! 22:01:16 I need a tool to write a parser in Lisp, which tool is easier to use? 22:01:17 postgresql 22:01:33 -!- sz0 [~user@94.55.194.230] has left #lisp 22:01:45 cl-store is basically java like java serialization but without having to declare your stuff Serializable, and kind of faster too 22:02:09 is cl available under cygwin? 22:02:14 Posterdati: what kind of parser? 22:02:16 last i checked it was not 22:02:18 good for: "I have home grow data structure, and I just like to save adn restore it from file" 22:02:29 Ralith: I've to write a simple assembler 22:02:38 maxm--: do you know anything about lparallel ? 22:02:38 maxm--: yes, that's exactly the purpose i had in mind 22:02:38 Ralith: a macroassembler 22:02:43 is it stable? 22:02:48 Posterdati: I like cl-yacc. 22:02:49 yates: need CL under Windows? 22:02:54 ehu: yes 22:03:00 anonus: I looked at it, but its no cilk.. Cilk migrates threads 22:03:03 yates: why not use CCL? 22:03:07 Ralith: does it uses bison rules file? 22:03:10 no. 22:03:32 ehu: because i was unaware of it - googling now. 22:04:07 yates: closure common lisp 22:05:05 ehu: thank you. 22:05:18 yates: welcome 22:05:31 Ralith: is yacc the program used by Aho in his book? 22:05:39 you tell me 22:06:02 maxm--: is it working/stable? maybe i can implement what i want using promises... 22:06:19 can one use quicklisp to install a cl (e.g., sbcl) under linux? 22:06:42 or is that the hart before the corse? 22:07:08 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.103.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:07:17 yates: quicklisp is a BYOCL application 22:07:32 Xach: ha. ack. 22:07:51 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:07:59 Ralith: it seems so 22:08:04 Ralith: thanks 22:08:40 man I have awesome earley parser, but its all hardcoded 22:10:15 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:11:45 *maxm--* has too many projects and none of them in publishable state 22:13:30 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:29 check this out: http://paste.lisp.org/+2Q5I 22:14:51 it started as a port of python code, but ended up way better then original 22:15:33 the python original could never do complex expressions, mine does 2000+ line functions cleanly 22:16:11 rme [~rme@50.43.135.246] has joined #lisp 22:17:03 -!- pdponze [~pierre@144.85.122.52] has left #lisp 22:17:49 mlkith: If you didn't see it, gbyers annotated your paste http://paste.lisp.org/display/127092 22:17:52 anonus: what your question was about re: working/stable? 22:18:48 *pimpollo234* estoy en www.sex-all.com [ HOla quieres verme www.sex-all.com ] [16mins] 22:19:21 rme thanks. I did miss it, reading it now 22:19:42 maxm--: afaik lparallel apears very few time ago 22:19:45 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 22:19:53 *p 22:20:14 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix 22:20:24 -!- fe[nl]ix has set mode +b *!~ircap@*.rima-tde.net 22:20:24 -!- pimpollo234 [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has been kicked from #lisp by fe[nl]ix (pimpollo234) 22:20:35 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o fe[nl]ix 22:20:50 so it can unstable or missing some of declared features 22:21:00 anonus: from what I remember it was simply a parallel let, that would run each let element, in its own thread 22:21:13 o_O 22:21:42 are we talking about same thing? %) 22:21:47 http://lparallel.com/overview/ 22:22:00 ok, maybe I'm mixing it up with some different library 22:22:21 okay 22:22:22 this definitely looks more complicated then what i remember 22:22:42 well, then i try it by myself :3 22:23:34 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@89.41.212.159] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:23:35 yea I was thinking about different library 22:23:39 swank-sbcl.lisp arranges to set swank:*log-output* to nil when an image is saved. swank-ccl.lisp could do a similar thing (e..g., by pushing a function onto ccl:*save-exit-functions*) 22:24:31 it looks very interesting, I ended up using my home grown cilk implementation basically only for (pmap), as cilk requires all functions to be code-walked and rewritten, and it gets hairy with defmethods 22:26:21 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 22:26:42 francogrex [6d825c34@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.130.92.52] has joined #lisp 22:27:05 ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 22:27:36 -!- ddp_ [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:06 rme yes makes sense. brb I'll reboot so I can test what he recommended 22:29:09 maxm--: i'll try it soon, so can give you a brief report after that 22:29:11 -!- mlkith [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:29:54 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:58 -!- francogrex [6d825c34@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.130.92.52] has quit [Client Quit] 22:33:54 clarke2 [~clarke4@109.76.124.137] has joined #lisp 22:35:07 -!- clarke2 [~clarke4@109.76.124.137] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:38:03 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-28-159.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:38:38 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:38:45 MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-28-159.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:27 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-28-159.as13285.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:43:04 -!- yates [c05b42bd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.91.66.189] has quit [] 22:44:43 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-248-14.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:50:11 I hmm I got it running, trying to get (fib) benchmarks to run 22:52:19 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:52:41 wish there was some way to abort all workers 22:52:56 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:53:17 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:21 cosman246_ [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:40 -!- cosman246_ [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:54:12 yates [c05b42bd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.91.66.189] has joined #lisp 22:55:17 Not seeing a lot of speedup so far, maybe I'm running it incorrectly? http://i.imgur.com/GFgcZ.png 22:55:17 22:55:29 i'm trying to install sbcl under linux into a non-standard place (a location outside my home directory) as a plain user. the binary is installing correctly but the manpages and info don't seem to work. help? 22:55:44 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-396305.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:56:06 i set export INSTALL_ROOT=/data/x0170761/app 22:56:52 unset SBCL_HOME before 22:56:55 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-383937.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:57:17 wbooze: it didn't matter - first time i installed, it wasn't set. 22:57:21 and same error 22:57:28 cp: cannot stat `doc/manual/*.info': No such file or directory 22:57:45 several other lines similar to that ^^^ 22:57:59 *.pdf 22:58:02 sbcl.html 22:58:06 asdf.html 22:58:33 ok, lparallel pcall-fib seems much faster and actually parallelises 22:59:12 looks like a script problem? 22:59:45 yates: the doc stuff can be safely ignored 23:01:47 you have to invoke maek-doc.sh in the doc/manual dir i think, so that the doc files get built, but it does not matter when the doc files can't be found.... 23:02:05 other then you want to have them... 23:02:42 for info in doc/manual/*.infon 23:02:53 seems to be the culprit ^^^ 23:03:07 line 113 of install.sh 23:03:17 sorry, line 112. 23:04:11 when docs are found they'll get copied over, or extracted....when not cp will fail but other parts of the script should still work... 23:06:14 i get all those warnings too when installing before building the docs.... 23:06:24 -!- osa1_ [~sinan@88.240.129.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:06:37 but it does not break the installation... 23:07:05 if you built the docs before installing you won't get the warnings tho 23:07:07 wbooze: the binary works, yes. i stated that up front. 23:07:37 wbooze: how do you build the docs again? 23:07:53 djuber [~djuber@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:44 i git clone an sbcl , then change to that dir, then build it, then the build script tells me that i can go to test dir for running run-test.sh and before doing that i go to doc dir and invoke make-doc.sh there 23:09:03 after all that and testing i invoke install.sh 23:09:17 wouldn't i also have to update my infopath and manpath to search my special install path too? 23:09:19 that way you can get rid of the warnings 23:09:35 erm, yep i think so 23:09:39 -!- diginet [~user@ppp-69-153-136-120.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has left #lisp 23:10:00 wbooze: i see. however, i have no make-doc.sh anywhere in my distro. this was the binary, though 23:10:41 the binary has just the sbcl.1 man manual in /doc 23:10:52 it has no info files or so 23:11:08 wbooze: right. 23:11:17 UTSL 23:11:36 so if you want info manuals go with the source 23:11:41 right 23:11:49 Use The Source, Luke! 23:12:09 thank you, wbooze 23:12:35 lparallel is no cilk 23:13:42 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has left #lisp 23:14:37 davazp [~user@89.100.226.133] has joined #lisp 23:15:11 trying to confirm, but cilk outperforms it by ridiculous amounts, altho on lame (fib) benchmark... 23:15:26 cilk (fib 35) is 0.5 seconds, lparallel (fib-pcall 35 is 70 seconds) 23:15:36 maybe I'm running it incorrectly 23:16:19 I'll email the author 23:16:21 -!- ned [~root@li129-64.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:16:52 -!- yates [c05b42bd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.91.66.189] has quit [] 23:19:26 With Lamar Smith obsessed with destroying the internet with bills 23:19:26 *** karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) has quit: Ping timeout: | like H.R. 1981 and H.R. 3261. I propose a movement to Google bomb 23:19:53 *easye* excuse me. 23:25:08 ned [~root@li129-64.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:31 -!- vairav [~vairav@pfsense.hackerdojo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:25:34 -!- ned is now known as Guest20821 23:29:55 -!- ngz [~user@23.78.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:30:26 zmv [~zmv@187.105.243.179] has joined #lisp 23:32:11 Kron__ [~Kron@69.166.23.74] has joined #lisp 23:35:34 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.214.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:36:45 -!- kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-396305.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:37:08 oh man i don't know why copy/pasting with mclim apps like beirc is not possible, there's a hint in xedit tho 23:37:11 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:38:44 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-231-117.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:40:16 hmm, insert works there at least 23:41:19 and here i get insert unbound failures rather 23:41:37 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:41:41 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-65-151.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 23:45:20 -!- ghuntley [~ghuntley@14-200-9-232.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:46:27 ISF [~ivan@201.82.138.222] has joined #lisp 23:48:08 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:48:49 about lparallel testing, the devil is in the details 23:49:22 there is around 50 times difference in speed between in and my kludgy cilk 23:50:01 erm 23:50:13 what is cilk ? 23:50:39 parallel framework based on fork/join with task stealing 23:50:42 google it 23:50:43 maxm--: what is lparallel 23:51:13 Guthur: http://lparallel.com/pmap-family/ 23:51:22 looked very impressive at first glance, until I benchmarked it 23:51:34 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:51:47 oh, pjb was talking about stuff like that only a while ago 23:51:48 I'm writing the author in case I'm mis-benchmarking it somehow, but I run it from cmdline without slime and still getting same numbers 23:52:15 thought it did map to stream processors 23:52:21 though* 23:53:34 vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 23:55:37 ghuntley [~ghuntley@14-200-9-232.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:56:51 its the lambdas that kill him 23:56:56 *maxm--* had same problem with cilk 23:57:20 capturing a lambda in each function call frame is very expansive 23:57:56 *maxm--* ended up rolling his own stack, in a vector, each element itself being a vector where all frame variables are stored 23:58:12 zero consing, huge performance gain, very non-elegant :-)