00:00:02 Hexstream: that doesn't make sense, just import the symbols before you load all other code 00:00:04 It's more for combining DSLs which want to "incidentally" use symbols with very desirable names without conflicts. 00:00:53 Hexstream: which is usually done when you do this from defpackage, you load the defpackage, it uses or imports the symbols you use, and then all other code is loaded, no conflicts 00:01:21 For instance, many macros could use DESTRUCTURING to introduce destructuring, without conflicting with eachother, and without using the much longer DESTRUCTURING-BIND (I don't mind that name as a top-level name but as part of embedded syntaxes it's pretty long...) 00:01:43 Hexstream: you don't make your variable names unique, don't you? 00:01:58 stassats: Uh, what? 00:02:14 I just bitched about reader macros in another channel. Maybe I can here too. 00:02:25 Hexstream: then i don't understand what problem you were talking about with LOOP 00:02:52 can you explain this sentence "Well, for instance it's very impractical to export a WHILE or UNTIL or REPEAT looping macro..." 00:03:11 ? 00:03:33 Ok, so exporting it might not be impractical, but anyone who tries to :use your package will curse at you. Or will think about doing it. 00:03:49 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 00:03:52 Hexstream: how, exactly? 00:04:04 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:18 ddp [~ddp@anon-136-20.relakks.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:25 can you describe what actual problems will anyone have when :using such package? 00:04:43 symbol conflicts... 00:05:13 rosario [~user@fsf/member/rosario] has joined #lisp 00:05:14 Hexstream: with what? 00:05:16 Anyway, you're fixating on the wrong thing, as I said LOOP keywords is not the primary use-case. 00:05:20 with what symbols? from other packages which export them too? 00:05:41 Mostly with already-interned symbols, not necessarily exported ones. 00:06:00 Let's say I use LOOP from within package FOO... (not something I'd do, but anyway) 00:06:05 Hexstream: hence my question, do you make your variables unique? 00:06:15 And then "Oh, let's bring in this cool dependency which exports WHILE!" 00:06:25 And then "fuck"... 00:06:43 stassats: No. 00:07:05 kpal [~kpal@46-252-115-213.sibtele.com] has joined #lisp 00:07:15 Hexstream: then do you say "fuck" when something happens to export a symbol with the same name as one of your variables? 00:07:45 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:07:48 stassats: Yes, but I know it's just bad luck and not an entrenched systemic problem. 00:08:35 you are not making sense 00:09:27 if you delete your package, or restart your lisp, and reload your program, it won't have any symbol conflicts 00:09:33 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:10:04 I know that. 00:10:38 so? why do you say that LOOP is "a systemic problem"? because you hate it? 00:11:04 -!- dnolen [~user@p72-0-226-114-static.acedsl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:11:20 I don't like deleting my package, nor restart my lisp, nor do petty symbol management tasks by hand. I do it when I have to, but if I can find a way to solve this, even impartially, I'd like it. 00:11:30 I said that LOOP *keywords* were a systemic problem. 00:11:39 LOOP is a problem, but not a systemic one. 00:12:11 but it's not 00:12:12 LOOP keywords unnecessarily bypass the package system. 00:12:19 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:12:30 variable names do too, so? 00:12:53 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:13:03 stassats: Now you are most definitely not making any sense. 00:13:08 Hexstream: they do so exactly in order to avoid the problem you descirbe with multiple packages exporting the same common name. 00:13:17 Variables are compared by identity, not STRING=. 00:13:56 pkhuong: What's wrong about (loop :for i :below 10 :collect (list i i))? 00:14:11 |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:14:23 How might I inspect a signalled condition in sldb? 00:14:31 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 00:14:35 C I think. 00:14:42 Try C-h m 00:14:45 Hexstream: if you have a variable named REPEAT, and use a package with REPEAT exported after the code which uses the said variable was already compiled, you'll get a symbol conflict 00:14:51 (loop #:for i #:below 10 #:collect (list i i)) 00:14:54 Hexstream: I don't know? You say it looks like shit. 00:14:55 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:15:10 pkhuong: I don't. 00:15:23 -!- felideon [~user@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:15:36 LOOP keywords are actually a lot like actual keyword arguments, which I don't mind at all being actual keywords. 00:15:48 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:16:01 It's more for things like (map 'alist) where (map :alist) doesn't look quite as well-integrated as (map 'list). 00:16:18 I don't see the difference... And I don't much care either. 00:16:29 Yeah, well that's what I expected. 00:17:52 -!- saltmiser [~chatzilla@70.15.225.198.res-cmts.ovr.ptd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:17:57 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:18:01 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 00:18:03 saltmiser [~chatzilla@70.15.225.198.res-cmts.ovr.ptd.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:05 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 00:18:41 Hexstream: if you prefer 'alist, why don't you use the LOOP approach? because, as we have seen, it doesn't cause any problems 00:19:44 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:20:08 It might "not cause any problems" for LOOP, but that's because LOOP is not extensible, and let's ignore the implementation-specific extensions that almost nobody actually uses... 00:20:30 ok, what problems will it cause for you? 00:21:00 If I have a "universal DEFINE" and there are 2 libraries that happen to have a class named VALIDATOR, that are not attached to the same symbol, I most definitely don't want those definitions to stomp on eachother. 00:21:26 When one does (define foo:validator) and (define bar:validator) 00:21:32 I don't understand how ikeywords would solve the issue then. 00:21:37 (Well, 2 different people.) 00:22:05 djuber`` [~user@c-76-16-57-45.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:06 [i]keyword:validator is still only one symbol. 00:22:30 -!- snearch [~snearch@e178123159.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 00:23:22 Well, the library that introduces a certain new type of definitions would have the responsibility of providing the definitions for symbols that would be expected to be used as ikeywords such as ALIST, PLIST, etc if applicable. 00:23:29 -!- djuber` [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:23:48 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 00:25:01 MrBusiness [~MrBusines@75-163-225-197.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:10 Uh, yeah, if the 2 libraries want to define separate VALIDATOR classes they would most definitely not make that an IKEYWORD. In fact it's impossible to have global function, macro, etc. definitions directly on an IKEYWORD, since it's a global resource. Two libraries that provided global definitions would stomp on eachother if they did that... 00:25:34 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.0.143] has joined #lisp 00:26:26 so, how one decides which is global and which is not? 00:26:54 Both libraries could have (define (validator function)) and (define (validator macro)), where VALIDATOR is a distinct symbol for each and FUNCTION is from CL for each and MACRO is an IKEYWORD for each. 00:27:09 stassats: Neither of them is global. 00:27:26 Hexstream: but some things are global, which are? 00:27:44 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 00:27:44 stassats: I don't follow. 00:28:09 Hexstream: the ikeyword package, what goes there, and what doesn't? 00:28:17 The VALIDATOR from each package would be a "namespacing" mechanism in this case. 00:29:17 stassats: If you need a global macro or function or SETF expander or whatnot on a symbol, then that can't be an IKEYWORD. 00:30:14 But if you just need the symbol for identity and will use some other contextual information to give it meaning, and you want to export that symbol yet not conflict will all other library authors that are in the same situation as you, then you'd make it an IKEYWORD. 00:30:32 Is anyone out there able to get at the darcs repo for ITERATE? I have tried repeatedly according to the instructions, but no dice. 00:30:50 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 00:30:51 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:13 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 00:31:38 An interesting IKEYWORD would be ESCAPE. That could be used in many different contexts in many different DSL's. 00:32:28 The_third_bug [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:28 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:32:51 https://github.com/Hexstream/cl-conceptual-types/blob/master/package.lisp has a list of many potentially interesting IKEYWORDs, but of course I was stupid for not realizing right away that explicit enumeration as part of the library was not the way to go o_o. 00:33:02 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 00:35:21 if you want two kinds of symbols, then i don't see the problem with keywords, because i'm not going to go lengths such as using ikeyword just to be able to put 'alist or alist instead of :alist 00:35:45 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:36:57 Well, in many situations both :alist and ikeyword:alist could be used, so you could use say (map :alist) while I'd use (map 'alist). 00:37:04 -!- Guest1482 is now known as X-Scale 00:37:48 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:38:27 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:38:38 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 00:38:46 djuber``` [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:48 Oh, btw as a user of a library that exports ikeywords you wouldn't use ikeyword directly. You'd just use whatever symbols are exported from the package directly, or you'd incidentally get the required IKEYWORDs from somewhere else... For instance if you :use'd a "universal mapping" library that would be likely to make definitions for the ALIST, PLIST, etc. IKEYWORDs, reexport these symbols, [...] 00:40:09 -!- djuber`` [~user@c-76-16-57-45.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:40:27 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:40:46 And then as part of :use'ing this package (assuming you did so), you'd have those IKEYWORDs for other packages, so for those maybe you could just import whatever main symbol, as you know you already have most of the IKEYWORDs you need... 00:40:54 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41:06 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:42:16 So, I think I talked about this enough for today. I'm pretty sure it works well in theory, and am looking forward to how well it works in practice. 00:43:16 Guest71519 [~meta@117.195.67.216] has joined #lisp 00:43:45 kennyd_ [~kennyd@93-141-114-13.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 00:45:28 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-126-164.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:47:33 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-24-222-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:21 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-169-80-32.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:50:37 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.193.4] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 00:52:08 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:54:11 -!- saltmiser [~chatzilla@70.15.225.198.res-cmts.ovr.ptd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:54:32 saltmiser [~chatzilla@70.15.225.198.res-cmts.ovr.ptd.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:29 -!- rosario [~user@fsf/member/rosario] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:56:15 -!- djuber``` [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:59:46 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:12:10 -!- huangho [~vitor@189.27.230.97.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:13:08 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 01:13:34 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Client Quit] 01:13:41 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 01:15:40 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:16:06 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:08 sellout: you around? 01:16:58 tmokros [~tmokros@ip68-106-150-168.cl.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:02 Ralith: Yup. 01:17:14 llvm:params appears to be broken on 2.9 01:19:20 appears to be giving me garbage 01:19:37 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:20:16 -!- tmokros is now known as borodon 01:21:48 Ralith: Hrmm, yeah, that looks broken. Can you open an issue (ideally with a simple test). 01:22:20 you reproduce? 01:22:31 am trying to track down the actual issuewill open an issue if I can't open a pull request. 01:23:06 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-49-127-68-236.its.monash.edu.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 01:26:36 Ralith: no, I just looked at the code  I can't see how with-pointer-to-list could work. 01:26:46 hm? 01:26:49 it seemed obvious to me 01:26:50 *Ralith* reviews 01:27:10 Ralith: It's been a while since I looked at the code  01:27:38 but how does the call to convert-from-foreign there know the length? 01:27:51 that's what I'm trying to find out now 01:27:58 I swear this used to work o.O 01:29:13 I think it expects a null-terminated array. 01:29:19 I bet LLVM used to return one 01:29:34 Yeah, that's the only thing that could have worked. 01:29:42 Damn you, LLVM! No more changing things! 01:29:46 oh, there's an easy fix 01:31:15 got it 01:31:24 hm 01:31:31 Ralith: `(carray ,`,type ,length)? 01:31:34 one of these days I need to work out how to do quicklisp local projects 01:31:36 sellout: ,, actually 01:31:40 Oh, rigth. 01:31:50 Hooray for nested quoting :) 01:31:59 ^^ 01:32:24 stassats: I finally found some data to rerun the parallel work load I was talking about earlier... 01:32:37 want to apply it yourself, or shall I sork out how to make this a pull request 01:33:09 Ralith: If you want the credit, do a pull, but if it's too much hassle, I can do it quickly. 01:33:19 stassats: The nature of the work means the CPU is very under utilised if ran sequentially, around 3-5% 01:33:47 stassats: With 10 worker threads it can be around 20% 01:34:09 where's the bottle neck? 01:34:12 Ralith: I'm surprised that since I wrote carray to behave correctly, that I didn't use it the more robust way in the first place. 01:34:25 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:34:34 probably got 90% there and got distracted, if you're anything like me 01:35:51 stassats: I'm not rightly sure to be perfectly honest, I did run some prof when I was initially developing it but could come to a worthwhile conclusion 01:35:57 I should dig into it 01:35:58 pimplord [~user@89.180.103.2] has joined #lisp 01:36:00 Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-49-127-1-99.its.monash.edu.au] has joined #lisp 01:37:26 do you lots of i/o? 01:37:28 the task is to take 200 EPIC (exchange instrument symbols) and then go to yahoo and grab a years worth of historical data in CSV format, parse this into sexp and process the data, compiling a list at the end, 01:37:28 do 01:37:34 stassats: yep 01:38:26 Guthur: it seems the bottleneck here is the developer's conscience. How much are we ready to hammer Yahoo? (: 01:39:05 pkhuong: I heard they block your IP if you hammer them too hard 01:39:21 block for a period of time 01:39:22 I would certainly expect as much. 01:39:39 it's only 200 requests 01:39:41 heeh 01:40:27 if your benchmark includes yahoo requests, then it doesn't make much sense 01:40:45 stassats: why not? It's a real workload. 01:41:35 pkhuong: it is, but it's hard to make a comparison 01:41:48 heidymadia [~saasten@61.247.42.167] has joined #lisp 01:42:17 well one would have to run them a number of times, and take into account a reasonable margin of error 01:42:39 can you compare the same thing but with files being located locally? 01:42:43 sharps [~hazel@121-72-240-85.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:54 I didn't set out to proof anything though, I just found that sequentially my performance was poor 01:43:07 stassats: sure 01:43:10 not tonight though 01:43:46 do you do yahoo requests in parallel? 01:43:56 stassats: yep 01:44:24 it's all parallel except the reading of the EPIC file and the composition at the end 01:45:18 i'd use two threads, one for making requests to yahoo, another for processing the returned data 01:45:35 I'd use asynch io. 01:46:27 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA216CF.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:46:33 -!- borodon is now known as borodon_ 01:46:56 -!- borodon_ is now known as borodon 01:46:57 and sb-concurrency:mailbox for communication between those threads 01:47:14 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:47:21 we use the tools we know, hehe 01:48:36 sellout: request open 01:49:00 -!- Guest71519 [~meta@117.195.67.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:49:19 Guthur: except that i expect yours to behave worse than either of proposed alternatives 01:50:11 Ralith: Merged, thanks. 01:50:23 ^^ 01:50:49 when you make 10 parallel requests you over-saturate your bandwidth and have to wait while all 10 (in theory) request are completed before you can process either of them 01:50:49 kanru` [~user@218-167-101-92.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:49 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 01:51:32 stassats: I didn't really put too much thought into the figure 01:52:01 I could have also tried the pattern you mentioned one thread for http another for processing 01:52:01 stassats: it's modem-bound. And it's a couple hundred requests. 01:52:59 this is confusing 01:53:14 stassats: the workers HTTP request all run independently, why would they have to wait 01:53:15 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Client Quit] 01:53:28 sure at the end possibly if one is slow 01:53:30 Guthur: do they use the same network connection? 01:53:46 I'm getting an "invalid number of arguments: 4" error from an apply form that expands to, and appears in the backtrace as, ((LAMBDA (BUILDER A B)) #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X080BC1B8) #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X080BBEF0) #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X080BB368)) 01:53:50 which is clearly three params 01:54:05 neither of them will be able to use the full bandwidth 01:54:09 stassats: yeah, I would like to know the network saturation 01:54:20 but have nothing at hand to measure it 01:54:38 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.191.255] has quit [Quit: marsell] 01:55:08 you can time downloading just the data sequentially and in parallel 01:55:45 without doing any computations 01:56:12 Ralith: extra arguments don't show up 01:56:21 oh. 01:56:47 ...hm, something's still wrong here, then 01:58:43 sellout: incoming secondary fix 01:59:10 Ralith: Same bug, or a separate bug? 01:59:28 different but very closely related bug 02:00:06 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:00:52 request up 02:01:02 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:01:50 gaaah 02:02:20 why must I always have crashes in the areas where SBCL can't backtrace 02:05:20 Ralith: Merged again  thanks for fixing all my bugs :) 02:06:18 it's the least I can do; this binding's saving me a great deal of pain and tedium 02:06:20 pkhuong: do you plan on having on keeping both napa-fft and napa-fft2? 02:06:28 s/on having// 02:07:19 I think yahoo may have had enough of me hammering them 02:07:22 hypercube32 [~hypercube@246.111.188.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:07:59 tomorrow I might look into hooking something more in a more localised environment 02:10:45 pnq [~nick@AC8163FA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 02:11:02 stassats: no. fft2 is more of a spike right now, but the end goal is to make it useful, and to handle multidimensional DFTs as well. 02:11:37 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 02:12:02 -!- Carmivore [~carmivmor@ec2-50-19-44-249.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:12:32 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:12:35 -!- nialo- [nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:13:25 stassats: but it's not even remotely related to my phd topic... time will be scarce again starting ~next week. 02:13:33 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128064083.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 02:14:04 -!- gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-24-222-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:14:07 felideon [~user@weston-69.65.92.95.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:54 the workers came back after 260 seconds 02:15:17 460 for the single thread and it hadn't finished 02:15:40 i'm too tired to continue 02:15:40 Carmivore [~carmivmor@ec2-184-73-109-201.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 02:16:32 it's possible that one of the requests is slow and then holds up all the others 02:16:45 in the sequential execution 02:17:34 actually that might be it, there was a number of the request which do not come back with a 200 status 02:17:42 nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:44 nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:32 299 non 200 status request in the multi threaded version 02:18:35 -!- kennyd_ [~kennyd@93-141-114-13.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:19:03 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:5c0:1000:b::9eff] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:20:50 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.140.62] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:24:15 kennyd 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04:30:34 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 04:32:19 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:32:31 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:40:06 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-72-240.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:33 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.176] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:50:00 pnathan [~Adium@98.145.116.190] has joined #lisp 04:55:48 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:57:39 elliottcable [~me@ell.io] has joined #lisp 05:00:48 So what's the popular solution for a cross-platform GUI application? 05:01:01 web-interface 05:01:46 heh! What about native applications? 05:02:02 none is popular 05:02:15 commonqt seems to get a fair amount of respect 05:02:22 pnathan, try looking at clojure.. it runs in the clr and jvm 05:02:27 commonqt is popular in my home 05:02:39 even though its not exactly lisp 05:02:43 hypercube32: that's a bad advice 05:02:47 lol 05:02:49 ;) 05:03:05 clojure is a fine lisp, it's just not the lisp *I* prefer. 05:03:10 so was html but people use it :P 05:03:18 shen is a nice lisp 05:03:41 but you're right, a clojure application would be cross-platform, if I could whack the java UI libs into behaving. :) 05:03:43 although it looks ugly 05:03:49 and i hate to say it but if i had to use qt based stuff or clojure for java stuff id probably go with clojure :/ 05:04:00 ya 05:04:17 I was *really* inquiring about Common Lisp though. 05:04:20 that and you can easily put it into a tomcat web app or web applet without much trouble 05:04:26 sorry 05:04:27 hypercube32: this is irrelevant, 05:08:02 I think the java UI libs are commonly thought to be among the worst. 05:08:04 stassats: you've had good experience with commonqt? 05:08:12 pnathan: yes 05:08:34 Which platform(s)? 05:08:38 Qt, on the other hand, is commonly thought to be fairly solid 05:08:44 although its tight association with C++ is a shame. 05:08:49 pnathan: linux 05:08:51 and it's also a bit heavier than I personally like 05:09:33 what are you, storing it on diskettes? 05:09:35 even gtk is quite heavier than it used to be, though 05:09:53 stassats: not heavy in terms of filesize 05:09:58 but rather in terms of how it likes to be used 05:10:02 fltk2 might be some alternative perhaps, if you can stand it, and it's also C++ 05:10:24 Qt and GTK both seem to be built on the assumption that they will be the core of your app 05:10:35 Ralith: well, making UI isn't exactly easy 05:10:43 ? 05:10:45 How about using ABCL for a cross-platform user interface for Common Lisp? 05:10:49 I've seen Qt used for server-side non-GUI applications *cough* 05:10:55 Ralith: ltk breaks free from that assumption a bit, which is nice 05:10:55 indeed. 05:11:10 it and other libs besides, I believe 05:11:12 Other than that, I prefer web-based user interfaces. Much easier to make, and works well with CL 05:11:20 Ralith: it's complex because that's what the task requires 05:11:32 steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 05:12:02 and i don't see the assumption that it has to be the core when using it with Lisp 05:12:05 stassats: I don't think the task requires it to be the core of my application. 05:12:24 at least, not the task I generally want them for. 05:12:53 I haven't found them to be terribly complex to use, API-wise. 05:12:57 and it doesn't require that 05:13:17 -!- hypercube32 [~hypercube@246.111.188.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:13:28 that's good 05:13:36 but a lot of Qt stuff seems to be built around that idea 05:14:09 i don't know what it seems, i just tell you how i've been using it 05:14:20 it's good to know that that works well. 05:15:25 @Phoodus: I've used LTK a bit, but the dependency on wish/tk was "eh", and it didn't seem to be carefully maintained 05:15:59 dependency? what do you expect not to have a dependency? 05:16:24 clx? 05:16:28 heh 05:16:33 well it still needs bsd sockets 05:16:37 Having to boot Wish and send it commands was kind of annoying. 05:16:45 phadthai: does window include an X server nowadays? 05:16:53 windows 05:17:22 stassats: No, butcygwin has a free one that always seems to work fine. 05:17:25 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.212.106] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 05:17:28 of course not, but one could install cygwin or mingw xorg, which is probably smaller than firefox 05:17:36 albeit, unaccelerated. 05:17:54 easye: that's still a dependency, isn't it? 05:18:19 But with cygwin you can always do a non-Administrator install to the point that you can display a remote Emacs with a local server. 05:18:23 At work some people use XMing and appear to be generally happy with it: http://straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/ 05:18:59 stassats: Ah. Didn't read the previous context. Yes, dependency, but one that could be packaged up for automatic installation. 05:19:23 pnathan: you won't be happy if you had to use clx 05:19:49 I also mentioned it with a grain of salt, as you'd have to create your widget kit around it 05:20:11 there's mcclim, which uses clx, but it's unusable 05:20:17 Oh? 05:23:35 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 05:23:49 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:24:03 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:28:40 Cristi [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 05:30:18 -!- Cristi [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:31:05 Demosthenes [~demo@m9f2c36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:58 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 05:35:29 -!- felideon [~user@weston-69.65.92.95.myacc.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:35:53 mcsontos 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here?] 07:33:40 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:35:49 easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 07:36:22 good morning 07:37:29 -!- zzach1 [~zzach@dslb-178-001-137-118.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 07:39:29 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.185.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:41:55 Mornin' 07:44:09 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:44:55 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:45:49 Demosthenes [~demo@m9f2c36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:42 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 07:50:37 Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:55 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-54-154.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:52:57 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:53:11 -!- DataLinkDroid 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[~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:37:02 Mustansir [~Mustansir@cpe-76-169-66-40.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:38:46 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:39:04 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:40:04 anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has joined #lisp 08:40:41 ddp_ [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 08:41:07 -!- Mustansir is now known as mgolawala 08:43:34 -!- ddp [~ddp@anon-134-36.relakks.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:43:34 -!- ddp_ is now known as ddp 08:44:17 nostoi [~nostoi@18.Red-79-157-93.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:09 -!- heidymadia [~saasten@fm-ip-61.247.42.167.fast.net.id] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:46:36 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 08:47:04 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@18.Red-79-157-93.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:47:22 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-159-153.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 08:47:51 heidymadia [~saasten@fm-ip-61.247.42.167.fast.net.id] has joined #lisp 08:47:52 -!- easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has quit [Quit: Outta here?] 08:48:34 kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-252-59.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:53:44 -!- heidymadia [~saasten@fm-ip-61.247.42.167.fast.net.id] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:55:04 heidymadia [~saasten@fm-ip-61.247.42.167.fast.net.id] has joined #lisp 08:56:06 is it possible to inspect a local variable when I'm in debugger after a call to break ? Can you point me to some CL debugg howto ? I'm a bit tired of calling format and using global foobar varibles just for debugging purposes 08:56:35 kiuma: e in the slime debugger 08:57:10 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:57:37 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 08:57:58 stassats, eval in frame ? 08:58:06 yes 08:58:13 thx 08:58:43 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:59:01 -!- mgolawala [~Mustansir@cpe-76-169-66-40.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 08:59:56 -!- _death [void@apathy.and.love.cn] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:01:29 _death [void@my.islamicradio.ir] has joined #lisp 09:02:05 bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:03:29 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.26.116] has joined #lisp 09:04:53 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 09:06:23 -!- Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Cryotank2011] 09:06:56 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-157-236.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:17 pspace [~andrew@adsl-76-241-85-191.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:56 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 09:15:58 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.37.220] has joined #lisp 09:18:43 MoALTz [~no@46.205.44.71.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 09:26:49 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-157-236.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:28:45 -!- kanru` [~user@218-167-101-92.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:28:57 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:31:10 osa1 [~sinan@78.175.15.7] has joined #lisp 09:31:10 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:31:10 kiuma: you can also use C-u C-c C-k to compile and load a file with (debug 3) 09:32:31 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 09:32:49 bsod1 [~bsod1@78.175.15.7] has joined #lisp 09:33:11 thanks, daimrod I think I have to read that debug part on slime. My project is getting a bit complicated :/ 09:35:49 kiuma: ok, but instead of adding some call to format, you could use (declare (optimize (debug 3))). 09:36:53 You'll see the arguments (with slime-inspector), be able to restart frames,  09:39:54 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-189-114.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:06 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 09:42:42 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:43:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:44:46 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:47:18 daimrod, I think that (declare (optimize (debug 3))) has to be added to each function, isn't it ? 09:48:06 yes, if you want to debug each function. 09:48:27 there is also (proclaim ...) 09:48:57 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-gzylswhjrmggxinv] has joined #lisp 09:49:41 proclaim is global 09:50:04 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:50:47 declaim is done at compile-time, proclaim isn't required to 09:50:58 so if you're giving optimization delcarations, use declaim 09:52:07 homie``` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-195-244.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:52:08 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 09:53:31 leoncamel [~user@KD175129170046.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:54:47 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-187.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:55:55 -!- leoncamel [~user@KD175129170046.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:56:44 proclaim can't be done at compile-time 09:58:32 it can, with EVAL-WHEN 09:58:43 by itself 10:00:36 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:01:40 zmyrgel [~user@hoasb-ff0cdd00-22.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:02:28 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:02:32 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 10:03:02 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:04:44 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-raenogsppbbgluvk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:05:50 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has joined #lisp 10:06:33 gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-18-7.dyn.bashtel.ru] has joined #lisp 10:06:58 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 10:07:04 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.0.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:07:16 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:08:09 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.193.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:09:27 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:09:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:13:05 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@79.Red-88-7-134.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:37 has anyone tried paren-psos? 10:19:39 Blkt [~user@82.84.172.202] has joined #lisp 10:19:49 any opinions regarding a date/time handling library? i need iso8601 now, maybe more later. 10:21:34 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@m9f2c36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:22:31 leoncamel [~user@KD175129170046.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:26:55 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:28:49 -!- benny [~benny@i577A77C7.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:29:19 H4ns: local-time ? 10:32:11 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has left #lisp 10:33:17 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:33:24 -!- naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 10:33:46 naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has joined #lisp 10:35:22 daimrod: that's what i thought, but it seems like it can't parse "20010101" 10:35:24 narf. 10:38:31 -!- teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:42:03 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 10:42:17 -!- btbngr [~btbngr@188.28.97.44.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:43:01 H4ns: what format is that in? 10:43:25 H4ns: one of the ones definedin iso8601/ 10:43:26 ? 10:43:57 jdz: my cursory reading of iso8601 determined that the dashes are optional as a date separator, but i could have been misreading. 10:44:07 jdz: i'm over it already, though :) 10:45:18 H4ns: they are optional. 10:46:04 pjb: ok, then local-time can't parse iso8601 formatted dates in all cases 10:46:07 -!- leoncamel [~user@KD175129170046.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:47:20 H4ns: yes, it looks like it can only parses rfc-3339-format which is a subclass of iso-8601 10:47:51 good day everyone 10:47:59 daimrod: i figured that - not hard to get around it. thanks anyway. 10:48:02 H4ns, can't you put dashes to the iso8601 before giving it to local-time ? 10:48:32 kiuma: i figured that - not hard to get around it. thanks anyway. 10:49:59 just for curiosity, where do you need iso8601 dates ? 10:50:05 H4ns: time to update local-time to iso8601 :) 10:50:40 kiuma: i'm reading legacy files that have dates in YYYYMMDD format in them 10:50:45 aliao [~user@115.63.129.80] has joined #lisp 10:51:30 -!- aliao [~user@115.63.129.80] has left #lisp 10:52:03 ah :) . postgresql uses this format to for date params 10:53:32 arrrgggg, how many typos I've in my code :( 10:54:33 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082AE2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:04 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.145.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 10:56:08 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5B3263B2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:03:19 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 11:03:27 zophy [~zophy@host-5-150-220-24.midco.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:54 which lisp should i use with windows 11:04:16 -!- hba [~hba@189.229.250.135] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:04:42 Any. abcl, ccl, clisp, ecl, sbcl work there. 11:04:52 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:05:17 ooooooh, wasn't aware of that 11:05:34 -!- zophy [~zophy@host-5-150-220-24.midco.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:08:33 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09:26 __prefect [~prefect@p3E9E2E50.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:16 code style question: I have a bunch of functions that depend on several parameters; all these parameters are collected in an object (something like an environment); is it better to have keyword arguments like (neededarg &key (env *env*)) or (neededarg &key (arg1 (get-arg1 *env*)) (arg2 (get-arg2 *env*))) ? 11:14:02 Blkt: if it is likely that users would override individual parameters on a by-call fashion, form 2 seems appropriate 11:14:08 looks like you want the latter, because as you say, the functions "depend on several parameters", not one 11:14:39 Blkt: or you could have a macro like with-modified-environment 11:14:50 or with-temporary-environment 11:15:05 but that's not good 11:15:14 no? 11:15:38 yes, the dependencies of a function will be hidden when looking at the function 11:16:06 writing functions in a functional style is a win always 11:16:08 Sometimes it's good to hide stuff. 11:16:48 so you get-arg1 and get-arg2 is the best solution? 11:17:28 Depends on how often they vary from function call to function call. 11:18:02 I was trying to keep it in functional style, but the number of arguments made the lambda list terribly long 11:18:54 it won't happen too often 11:19:15 once the environment is defined, it should remain the same for the whole execution 11:19:19 kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 11:19:45 I just needed the functions to be easily testable 11:20:13 So if it stays the same, better use (neededarg &key (env *env*)). 11:20:31 ah ok 11:20:38 I got it wrong then :D 11:21:09 -!- PuercoPop [~pirata@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping 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Does anyone currently use cl-cont or other delimited continuations library for CL? 13:04:52 pinterface [~pinterfac@173-20-55-85.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 13:06:13 -!- leoncamel [~user@KD175129170046.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Asta la vista] 13:07:14 -!- pnq [~nick@AC821816.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:08:37 pnq [~nick@AC821816.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:09:12 -!- easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has quit [Quit: Outta here?] 13:09:38 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:10:16 felideon [~user@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:24 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 13:14:31 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 13:14:43 bsod1 [~bsod1@78.175.15.7] has joined #lisp 13:15:19 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:20:55 -!- bsod1 [~bsod1@78.175.15.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:26:22 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 13:26:31 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 13:27:22 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Client Quit] 13:27:31 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 13:31:17 bsod1 [~bsod1@78.175.15.7] has joined #lisp 13:34:46 chenbing [~user@122.233.176.71] has joined #lisp 13:35:40 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:37:34 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.162.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:37:53 -!- bsod1 [~bsod1@78.175.15.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:38:07 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.1] 13:41:02 teggi [~teggi@113.172.60.144] has joined #lisp 13:41:26 *Xach* doesn't 13:41:31 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-60.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:42:05 -!- brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:47:11 is there a way to make with-open-file create the file if it doesn't exist? 13:48:24 ok, found it 13:48:25 osa1: yes. 13:48:28 Glad to help. 13:48:32 -!- pnq [~nick@AC821816.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:49:40 pnq [~nick@AC821816.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:19 bsod1 [~bsod1@78.175.15.7] has joined #lisp 13:53:43 urandom__ [~user@p548A3196.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:04 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.162.214] has joined #lisp 13:54:05 gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:37 sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-91-219.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 13:55:49 -!- sacho [~sacho@92-247-208-87.spectrumnet.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:59:09 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:03:14 pavelpenev [d4e986ac@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.233.134.172] has joined #lisp 14:04:53 CrazyThinker` [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 14:05:05 -!- MoALTz 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[mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-xizvaemznvspnsjg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:16:42 -!- MoALTz [~no@46.205.44.71.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:17:01 MoALTz [~no@46.205.44.71.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 14:17:28 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:19:10 -!- MoALTz [~no@46.205.44.71.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:20:29 -!- sacho_ is now known as sacho 14:21:56 bsod1 [~bsod1@78.175.15.7] has joined #lisp 14:27:38 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:27:55 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:29:09 do sbcl streams have a way to deal with crlf line termination? 14:29:42 H4ns: I think that's on the wish list. 14:29:54 H4ns: (string-right-trim '(#\return) (read-line stream)) 14:30:04 thanks! 14:30:18 it's not pretty, but... 14:30:24 dlowe: not quite the same thing either 14:30:33 dlowe: i'm processing huge files. 14:30:39 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:31:32 H4ns: there's no difference unless you have newlines embedded in your crlf delimited lines 14:31:56 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@77.53.200.179] has joined #lisp 14:32:01 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@77.53.200.179] has quit [Changing host] 14:32:01 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 14:33:11 H4ns: using ccl is out of the question, right? 14:33:33 jdz: no, but i'm just testing out different compilers with our software. 14:33:43 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-fbotafffrrbrscvi] has joined #lisp 14:33:43 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:50 jdz: sadly, ccl is slower than acl, but sbcl is faster. 14:34:08 -!- pnq [~nick@AC821816.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:34:13 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:34:16 H4ns: Really? Woah. 14:34:31 Oh, nm  I read "sbcl" as "abcl" somehow ;) 14:34:44 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:34:50 *g* 14:41:42 with quickloaded, all exported symbols are auto imported in cl-user? 14:42:11 chenbing: No. 14:42:11 chenbing: Nope. 14:42:29 chenbing: You have to USE packages whose symbols you want. 14:42:53 vantage|work [~chatzilla@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 14:43:27 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:46:59 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:47:16 -!- bsod1 [~bsod1@78.175.15.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:47:40 yes does #:for exported by 'iterator will conflict with for in loop? 14:47:57 -!- kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:12 pnathan [~Adium@98.145.116.190] has joined #lisp 14:48:22 chenbing: I don't think so  they are both CL:FOR 14:48:27 sellout: there is no cl:for 14:48:37 chenbing: it will conflict if myproject::for is seen first. 14:48:38 bsod2 [~bsod2@78.175.15.7] has joined #lisp 14:48:53 sellout: don't you remember, that's why pjb uses (loop :for foo :in bar)? 14:49:49 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.162.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:49:52 hmm, I fell a little difficult using iterate. just a simple (iter (for i from 1 to 10) (collect i)) complains i not bounded. 14:49:53 14:50:42 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-142-251.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:42 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:36 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:53:11 CrazyWoods [~crazywood@125.77.219.15] has joined #lisp 14:54:57 -!- bsod2 [~bsod2@78.175.15.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:54:58 loop only looks at the symbol name, I think 14:55:03 G'morning all. 14:55:10 nyef: yo 14:55:19 Yeah, loop "keywords" are matched by symbol-name, not by symbol identity. 14:55:20 right, some people use :keywords inside loop 14:56:00 I do, for example 14:56:07 (looks nicer in Emacs to me) 14:56:12 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:56:23 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 14:56:38 I 14:57:34  see. what myproject::for collect are tricks 14:57:38 I use that style, also. 14:59:01 I remember pjb think that a must-be purge in cl-user 14:59:50 otherwise loop and iterate are not able co-exist 15:00:13 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:00:24 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 15:02:44 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.153.136] has joined #lisp 15:04:11 splittist [d9f3f334@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.243.243.52] has joined #lisp 15:04:18 they can coexist fine 15:04:20 morning 15:04:59 bsod1 [~bsod1@78.175.15.7] has joined #lisp 15:05:29 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:06:05 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-gzylswhjrmggxinv] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:07:12 -!- btbngr [~btbngr@188.28.167.101.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:08:22 _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.127.166] has joined #lisp 15:08:22 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:08:31 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 15:08:31 yes, they can coexist, but you must right import symbols first 15:10:44 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-142-251.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 15:12:00 chenbing: have you tried it? 15:13:47 -!- bsod1 [~bsod1@78.175.15.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:14:13 tonight i am learning iterate and loop ... 20 miniutes early I am confused by iter's symbol 'for collect . and now they are okay 15:14:40 MoALTz [~no@46.205.69.73.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 15:15:52 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:05 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 15:16:10 Greetings lispers 15:17:08 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.153.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:17:20 -!- MoALTz [~no@46.205.69.73.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:18:31 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:49 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 15:19:23 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:19:33 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:26:29 nha_ [~prefect@p3E9E5BC2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:21 -!- __prefect [~prefect@p3E9E2E50.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:29:05 -!- gz [gz@clozure-123267BA.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: ] 15:29:10 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 15:29:30 Anyone with experience programming a web-service using Common Lisp? I'm looking for advice as to which packages to use. I see some server options (allegroserve, hutchentoot) a few "frameworks" available (Weblocks, Webactions) and a number of template libraries (htmlgen, lml2). I'm looking for "minimal" tooling. My current setup is Python using Flask (just the weurkzig WSGI library and jinja template library) running on top of Apache. 15:30:36 SurlyFrog: My current setup is hunchentoot, st-json, and some custom hackery. 15:30:42 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.25.20] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:30:47 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:31:01 nyef: has that been pretty stable? 15:31:01 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 15:31:03 But then, I'm producing JSON, not HTML or anything like that. 15:31:12 Thus far, but we're not in production yet. 15:31:14 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:31:15 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:31:30 ddp [~ddp@anon-135-167.relakks.com] has joined #lisp 15:31:32 SurlyFrog: I use hunchentoot, cl-who, and html-template, mostly. 15:31:53 nyef: my "real" output is JSON. But there is demonstration side that does HTML 15:31:57 Oh, and I'm behind an apache proxy. 15:32:05 *Xach* uses nginx as a proxy 15:32:12 Xach: why the proxy? 15:32:45 (Well, usually behind an apache proxy. I sometimes test against the hunchentoot endpoint directly.) 15:32:55 it's nice to have battle-hardened servers in front 15:33:01 SurlyFrog: i serve static content (js, css, images, etc) with the proxy, because it's very good at it, and let CL handle the dynamic bits. 15:33:10 got it 15:33:41 how is hutchentoot's performance under load? Is it comparable to Apache, better, worse? Any benchmarks around? 15:33:57 Actually, since we're on the subject, has anyone tried implementing XMPP or similar over hunchentoot? 15:33:58 Terrible 15:34:03 lies, damn lies, and benchmarks? 15:34:10 It's very very bad, not even joking 15:34:33 drdo: That's not what I want to be hearing, you realize? 15:34:34 nyef: what do you mean "or similar"? 15:34:43 SurlyFrog: hard to compare. It's slow, however a lot of it is more dependant on what is behind it 15:34:46 nyef: I can't lie, i actually tried it 15:34:51 nyef: I've implemented a library for Hunchentoot that does HTML5 push notifications. 15:35:07 I think Hunchentoot+fast CL app will have better performance than Apache + mod_php ;) 15:35:16 The OS thread per connection thing just makes you run out of memory in record time 15:35:21 at least for anything bigger 15:35:23 loke: The long-running connection with occasional data transfer bit. I'd rather not use XML, but I would like to be able to hold an open channel for asynchronous events. 15:35:40 nyef: yeah. I did that. Even packaged it into a nice library 15:35:58 drdo: you know you can write your own stuff to not create a thread per connection? 15:36:03 nyef: it uses HTML5 EventSource if you have it, or it can fall back to an EventSource emulation thingy 15:36:09 loke: Is it as straightforward as using the response stream directly? 15:36:23 nyef: Pretty much 15:36:26 are there any commercial sites running hutchentoot? 15:36:27 Okay, thanks. 15:36:38 nyef: it's more easy to use if your data is JSON though 15:36:52 I wonder if Toot still has thread-per-connection 15:36:55 actually, it has to be JSON 15:36:59 jdz: You can write anything you want, that's not what was asked 15:37:00 dlowe: on the other hand, for a concurrent framework, it can be quite good. hunchentoot is overshadowed by database connection costs for instance. 15:37:27 SurlyFrog: Have you looked at restas? its based on hunchentoot. I've been playing around with it and it looks pretty awesome to me 15:37:28 Hell, I just need to pass a notification. A -single byte- at a time could do that. 15:37:50 pavelpenev: I have not. I will now though :-) 15:37:56 nyef: you can always use FastCGI with Nginx or use Mongrel2 15:38:09 nyef: do you need to do it over HTTP? 15:38:15 dlowe: in a benchmark on an amd 3000+ i reached 25 pages per second using bknr + hunchentoot and my custom stuff. rails+mongrel reached less than 5 pages on the same setup. though obviously not the same application and all, it's not that we can't do anything. 15:38:31 p_l|home: I suppose I don't need to use HTTP for my notification channel, but it would probably simplify things. 15:38:37 drdo: have you read http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/#taskmasters ? 15:38:39 madnificent: comparing to rails is a pretty low bar :p 15:38:47 jdz: Yes i have 15:38:56 nyef: do you have to pass through proxies? 15:39:02 (or hostile firewalls) 15:39:04 dlowe: but it is a commercially available framework that's worth benchmarking against 15:39:07 nyef: bascially, you create "data source". The web client can subscribe to one or more sources and will get updated when there is a new update (it handles all the heavy lifting to deal with the situation where a message comes in while the client is disconnected etc.) 15:39:09 Yes i can go out and implement my taskmaster with epoll 15:39:12 madnificent: was it 1.8 or 1.9? 15:39:14 the Franz guys seem to think that AllegroServe is as fast and stable as Apache. 15:39:18 Possibly. We need to support mobile-device clients. 15:39:33 nyef: I use it for all my asynchronous notifications in my application 15:39:38 nyef: ah, then unfortunately HTTP it i :/ 15:39:42 *is 15:39:57 p_l|home: 1.8, i think 15:40:05 doesn't AS have hairy licensing terms and fees? or was that one of their related products 15:40:38 madnificent: 1.8 is slower than nearly anything 15:40:50 I don't think so. They have an open version of it too. 15:40:52 p_l|home: though what i want to say with it is: yes hunchentoot may not be the fastest thing around, it's probably still on par. i noticed the webserver not being the bottleneck by far in my application either. 15:40:58 nyef: for mobile (Android) you should be using the Android C2DM API anyway... 15:41:43 i had a 5x speedup by not using my own database mapping (based on postgresql) to lisp objects, but by using bknr.datastore. i haven't searched for other things to optimize in my framework, but i wouldn't be surprised if hunchentoot wasn't next. 15:41:46 madnificent: The real problem is that most CL implementations just use OS threads when you spawn a thread 15:41:48 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 15:41:58 loke: Yes and no. I'd rather use C2DM as a fallback for when there's no active event connection, and an active event connection when the user is actually interacting with the app. 15:42:01 And those are very expensive 15:42:03 drdo: the real issue is that people assume we must be slow, i think. 15:42:15 madnificent: What? 15:42:28 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:42:30 nyef: so this is not actually a web browser that interacts with your service? 15:43:00 loke: Which will cut down on our required C2DM quota and should yield faster event delivery when the user is actually doing stuff. 15:43:12 Right, it's a custom app. 15:43:28 nyef: ah, then my library wouldn't help you anyway. It's purely for web clients. 15:43:56 Yeah, I was just going to figure out how to make it work server-side and then hand the spec off to the client-side developer. 15:44:47 drdo: when it becomes a problem and when you start hosting enough pages, it becomes worth fixing the damn thing. so far everybody just seems to assume we must be bad at speed. at least that's a feeling i have. 15:44:59 I just tried to compile a function with the typo defung. It makes me want to create a defung macro. 15:44:59 -!- vseloved [~user@94.45.59.210] has left #lisp 15:45:18 SurlyFrog: small propaganda: there is also framework restas and template engine cl-closure-templates 15:45:22 ThomasH: what? why? 15:45:25 nyef: why don't you write something manually then? For mobile, you want to have it light and ideally want to avoid lots of CPU-intesive parsing. Why not base it on Google protocol buffers for exmaple? 15:45:27 /s/is/are 15:45:29 madnificent: I don't know what you're talking about, i'm just pointing about a big problem i have with common lisp implementations 15:45:35 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:45:36 nyef: no real need to have it comment through hunchentoot for that 15:45:39 asvil: thanks :-) 15:45:43 *pointing out 15:45:44 madnificent: It's just a funny looking name. 15:45:48 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 15:46:02 But I'm already using hunchentoot on the server, so it's less that can go wrong. 15:46:02 ThomasH: ah thought so, yes! what could we possibly attach to it. 15:46:12 drdo: it's an easy to solve problem, no? 15:46:21 No, it's quite hard 15:46:45 for hunchuntoot it shouldn't be. create a pool of worker threads and request a header to parse. 15:46:50 nyef: fair enough. It quite simple to do it though if you're OK with one thread per listener. 15:47:25 madnificent: Yes i can go around hacking about with epoll and thread pools 15:47:49 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 15:47:54 drdo: within an implementation it could indeed get hairy quickly. 15:48:08 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:48:21 Mmm. The other aspect is that I just need something that works for now, making it scale can wait for a month or so. 15:48:30 I'd like to have that in the runtime 15:48:32 drdo: however, if the environment of a thread is split in a separate data structure, would it still be that complex? 15:48:37 ala haskell or erlang 15:49:02 oh you want something like a spinlock thread thing as haskell has? 15:49:09 No dude 15:49:19 I just want my threads not to take up 50 bazillion ram 15:49:37 drdo: why would they? 15:49:45 a thread itself is very light 15:49:53 It'd be neat to make iolib use thread pools 15:49:56 loke: You must be using a very different OS 15:49:57 a page or so of stack, that's pretty much it 15:50:01 One multiplexer per thread 15:50:05 in linux a thread is like 8MB 15:50:24 benny [~benny@i577A1C3E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:50:36 drdo: Nah. That's the virtual address space allocation. It doesn't actually use that much unless the stack grows to that size 15:50:54 drdo: Wow. My computer in college, a 486, had 8MB of RAM and I thought that was a lot at the time. 15:50:56 drdo: it's really only a problem on 32-bit programs where you can't grow the virtual address space beyond 4 GB 15:51:03 drdo: 1. you can decide how much stack space you need 2. I have 48 bits of address space. 15:51:20 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0/20111228055358]] 15:51:28 dlowe: the multiplexer was written with that idea in mind, one per thread 15:51:56 fe[nl]ix: not there yet, though, eh? 15:52:04 in what sense ? 15:53:00 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.175.15.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:53:17 fe[nl]ix: Ideally, you'd want the thread that handles your listener fd to be able to pass an accepted fd to another multiplexer 15:53:45 (time (defparameter *foo* (loop repeat 500 do (make-thread (lambda () (sleep 10)))))) 15:53:45 Evaluation took: 15:53:45 10.260 seconds of real time 15:54:00 This is not acceptable really 15:54:24 drdo: then don't do that. 15:54:32 dlowe: you can build that on top of it 15:54:39 pkhuong: Yes i can always not write my program, that works too 15:54:40 -!- ddp [~ddp@anon-135-167.relakks.com] has quit [Quit: ddp] 15:54:56 -!- pnathan [~Adium@98.145.116.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:55:04 drdo: what platofrm is that? 15:55:08 linux x86-64 15:55:12 dlowe: the only thing missing is a command queue, to allow modifying a muxer from a different thread 15:55:26 Same thing on my machine: 0.045 seconds of real time 15:55:56 Also, during that, SBCL blows up to 1.1GB 15:56:11 Is there a particular reason why SBCL's src/code/list.lisp has an optimized version of union using hashtables, but no such optimization for intersection or set-difference? 15:56:17 drdo: I have a suspicion. What's your sbcl version? 15:56:22 1.0.54 15:56:27 drdo: I thought it was 8 MB per thread. 15:56:37 jewel: someone needed it. 15:56:44 That's what i heard, i never actually checked it 15:56:45 hm. suspicion invalidated 15:56:50 I just know it's horrible 15:56:52 drdo: I don't know what kind of SBCL you're using. I just did it on my SBCL with 5000 threads and it took 0.432 seconds. 15:57:10 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 15:57:12 I got 0.039 seconds and 198k consed 15:57:18 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:57:23 I'm using regular sbcl from archlinux 15:57:33 ddp [~ddp@anon-168-18.relakks.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:41 drdo: lisppaste your *features*? 15:58:08 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:58:17 drdo: what you say it's using XX amount of RAM, how do you measure that? 15:58:28 drdo, are you using a VPS? 15:58:29 the runtime and user/system times would probably be more useful than *features*. 15:58:41 my SBCL never went above 200 MB with even 5000 threads in your test 15:58:43 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.127.166] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:58:49 http://paste.lisp.org/display/126877 15:58:55 jewel: No, this is my laptop 15:59:08 loke: htop 15:59:36 pnathan [~Adium@98.145.116.190] has joined #lisp 15:59:42 What's the defparameter for in that test case? 15:59:48 drdo: looking at RES, not VIRT? 16:00:07 drdo: which column in htop are you looking at? 16:00:08 of course 16:00:08 nyef: not printing that long list, I suppose. Why are the thread collected in a list? No clue. 16:00:21 Or do you also think i think CCL takes 512GB ram ? 16:00:34 What long list? It's just loop repeat do. 16:00:56 nyef: ah. interesting (: 16:00:59 got me 16:01:12 drdo: you have a very special laptop. 16:01:13 nyef: No clue 16:01:20 But that's the point 16:01:28 When testing again, my SBCL stayed at less than 120 MB for 5000 threads 16:01:38 pkhuong: It's a pretty ordinary laptop with a core2duo 16:02:05 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-205-216.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 16:02:17 -!- ddp [~ddp@anon-168-18.relakks.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:02:47 drdo: I'm always suspicious of packaged versions of sbcl, though 16:03:00 On Windows: 0.137 seconds of real time 229k bytes consed. 16:03:29 AIUI, that should return NIL or thereabouts. 16:03:31 (time (loop repeat 500 do (sb-thread:make-thread (lambda () (sleep 10))))) reports 0.055 seconds of real time on my dev system, which is running under virtualbox. 16:03:32 Of course, that doesn't include the time in any of the new threads. 16:04:09 on linux took 0.08s with 229k consed 16:04:20 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 16:05:26 I'll get sbcl from sbcl.org and try it 16:05:31 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 16:05:52 I'm using a packaged/experimental version and didn't even get any kittens of death. 16:05:57 I suppose a more proper test of the performance would include waiting for the threads to finish. This takes 0.525 seconds on my machine: (time (map nil #'sb-thread:join-thread (loop repeat 5000 collect (sb-thread:make-thread #'(lambda ()))))) 16:06:00 On windows no less. 16:06:29 0.67s for 5000 which is a bit more stable .. slime threads takes a bit to load with 5000 16:07:37 It's still the same on sbcl from sbcl.org 16:08:06 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:08:22 ddp [~ddp@anon-137-37.relakks.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:18 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:21 so this renders the issue moot, right? 16:09:45 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:09:56 Maybe for you, but i'd like to know why it is like this in my computer :S 16:09:58 well, it's a laptop, and you're hitting > 1 GB RES. Is overcommit disabled? Are you hitting swap? 16:10:06 Not hitting swap 16:10:11 I have 4GB ram 16:10:24 Does not follow. 16:11:18 Why am i hitting 1GB though? Apparently it doesn't on anyone else's computer 16:11:21 I'm still not sure what use case the test corresponds to. 16:11:34 pkhuong: if he's hitting >1 GB doing just that, something already wrong. Wether or not he's hitting swap is really not the point as that point :-) 16:12:14 drdo: does the amount of RES increase linerarly with the number of threads in your test? 16:12:27 drdo: what does sysctl vm.overcommit_memory give you? 16:12:42 loke: I see two issues that do not necessarily have the same root cause. Using up memory does not necessarily take tens of seconds. 16:12:46 = 0 16:12:52 that's problem A 16:12:58 loke: same test runs in 0.017 on a modern computer... it be cheap. 16:12:59 What is that? 16:13:04 pkhuong: fair enough. Good point 16:13:14 drdo: the answer to my first question: "Is overcommit disabled". 16:13:24 Yes, but what is it? 16:13:42 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:13:53 drdo: it means that the kernel is actually trying to give you as much ram as sbcl asks for 16:13:55 well, overcommit is disabled on my system too and I don't have that issue 16:14:03 drdo: sudo sysctl vm.overcommit_memory=1 16:14:05 (I have also C2D with 4GB ram, so very close to his machine) 16:14:56 enabling overcommit can cause random crashes instead of controlled "out of memory" errors, so it should only be enabled when some environment requires it. 16:15:04 dlowe: dull non-lisp question. if you override the kernel config through sysctl, does that config stick around? 16:15:06 drdo: sbcl asks for a huge amount of memory so it can segment the address space to facilitate gc 16:15:17 madnificent: no, you have to stick it into /etc/sysctl.conf 16:15:23 dlowe: or not segment it, actually ;) 16:15:27 I still have the same problem 16:15:31 dlowe: thanks, equivalent to freebsd then :) 16:15:48 pkhuong: well, right 16:16:04 It's really too bad that linux doesn't appear to have an equivalent to windows VirtualAlloc MEM_RESERVED, to just grab address space without allocating memory to it. 16:16:36 loke: a lot of software assumes linux's pretend-there's-more-memory-than-there-really-is is enabled. Assuming copy-on-write fork, for instance. 16:17:09 pkhuong: yeah, I solve that problem by adding a large amount of swap though 16:17:27 nyef: just wait for a few random version number increases and it may be there :) 16:17:35 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.37.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:17:35 I've been using (and supporting) Solaris for a very long time, so I'm used to that stuff :-) 16:17:37 I think enabling overcommit and using ulimit maximums is the way to go 16:18:02 I prefer disable overcommit and make sure you have over 10 GB of swap 16:18:09 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:18:17 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:18:17 loke: I have 24 GB of ram. How much swap would that require? 16:18:19 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129181119.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 16:18:39 loke: that way instead of nicely crashing, your machine gets so slow that you can't ssh in to it 16:19:17 pkhuong: 20 should be enough 16:19:27 pkhuong: i'd probably put 35 16:19:39 dlowe: I like to have some swap, because it lets me recover most of the time 16:19:43 pkhuong: that wasn't a real question, right? 16:20:23 In my opinion, overcommit is a hack in order to to save a little bit of disc space. 16:20:31 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:21:09 What the hell 16:21:17 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:21:32 The same thing on CCL makes it take up both cpus to 100% 16:21:32 loke: I'm with dlowe. Currently, swap would only be useful to make my box unusable. Every time I've hit OOM, there was one (or 10) runaway processes. 16:21:37 And it's not stopping 16:21:42 all these overcommit games are leftovers from the past, when memory was expensive. any kernel that requires swap spwace for proper operation is broken. 16:21:50 -!- christoph_debian [~user@oteiza.siccegge.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:04 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:05 dlowe: that's the problem. You won't have "nice" crashes. You'll have applications getting random SEGV's instead of a nice out of memory. If you're having problems with rnadom processes using all the memory, you won't get slow, sure, but you'll have randome system processes SEGV'ing on you instead. In either case, that requires a reboot to ensure everything is good. 16:22:28 H4ns: "swap space is magic" -- a linux dev whose name I forgot. I added 1 GB just to make it stop whining at boot. 16:22:40 pkhuong: "broken" 16:22:56 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:22:56 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 16:23:47 there was a curious relationship between VM, IO, and swap 16:23:50 loke: do you live in a parallel universe where developers check malloc and handle bad_alloc? 16:24:27 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:24:48 loke: you get random SEGVs if you don't check your mallocs ;p 16:24:52 pkhuong: apparently. I'd say most applications that runs on my machine check that 16:25:23 pkhuong: that's because apart from Emacs and CHrome, prttty much everything else is in Java or another VM-based or scripted language 16:25:45 and I'm pretty sure both Emacs and Chrome has good memory handling 16:26:41 Though it's hard to handle OOM conditions gracefully without essentially implementing your own swap space 16:26:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:27:31 dlowe: sometimes you only want to do a tiny bit of IO... I try to assume random crashes at all times instead. 16:27:36 dlowe: there is a very easy way: mymalloc(...) {if (failed){print_error_and_exit()}. All my C programs do that, and I've seen it's pretty common elsewhere 16:27:48 loke: how is that better than segving? 16:28:10 you get a message that said "malloc() failed" 16:28:24 Kryztof: I get a message in dmesg on OOM as well. 16:28:28 rather than a message that says "null pointer dereference or similar thing just happened" 16:28:28 well, it'd be nice to leave your on-disk data in a consistent state 16:28:44 When you are so out of memory that you can't malloc 16:28:47 You'll notice it 16:28:50 :P 16:28:55 sure, OOM killer tells you what it killed to. Not the same as "Segmentation fault (core not dumped)" 16:28:57 Kryztof: that's the problem with overcommit. You don't get null pointer dereference. You get a random SEGV that looks like any other crash 16:29:21 not on linux, you get "out of memory: process killed" 16:29:21 loke: I get lines in dmesg. 16:29:38 and you can handle SIGSEGV if you want pretty messages 16:29:47 usually I get "out of memory: $other_process killed" 16:29:51 (which you won't get in overcommits, of course) 16:30:31 anyway, I don't really mean to participate in this discussion, but a message that said "I tried to allocate memory using malloc and it failed" seems better to me than "Segmentation fault", which was the question I was answering 16:31:10 loke: with overcommit you get "something died", in linux 16:31:21 because allocation can't fail 16:31:45 it can if you set the ulimit :p 16:33:27 Kryztof: much like I don't really care about improving thread creation times, but there's something strange with drdo's setup :\ 16:34:04 aintme [~user@228.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:34:14 -!- aintme [~user@228.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 16:34:19 ddp_ [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 16:34:26 It's faster now 16:34:28 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 16:34:35 0.819 seconds of real time 16:34:47 But the 1GB+ memory thing is still true 16:36:34 -!- ddp [~ddp@anon-137-37.relakks.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:36:35 -!- ddp_ is now known as ddp 16:36:53 drdo: A good chunk of that should be relatively untouched, things like stack spaces. 16:37:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:37:17 nyef: That's the very problem 16:37:26 maybe arch builds with a huge tls table size. 16:37:37 This is 500 threads we're talking about 16:37:45 Which is nothing 16:37:46 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:40:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:40:29 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:40:42 hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584627.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:42:53 -!- hugod [~user@76.65.142.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:43:03 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 16:45:49 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:47:05 antifuchs: therep? 16:47:53 pnq [~nick@ACA25B7C.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:12 -!- bsamograd [~bsamograd@184.71.240.90] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:49:40 easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 16:54:19 -!- gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:54:56 gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:23 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 16:55:55 -!- CrazyThinker` [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:56:31 loke: chrome mandles memory really well. there's no application on my laptop which uses more of it. 16:57:33 bsamograd [~user@184.71.240.90] has joined #lisp 16:58:52 madnificent: Chrome also for quite a long time had zero resource management... run some plugins, and welcome all cores running 100% all the time, because someone put loops incorrectlky 16:59:31 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:02:32 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 17:04:26 p_l|home: Still does have problems. If I minimize Gmail in Chrome without leaving it in the proper state, 100% CPU. 17:04:26 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:04:45 Although, it's not all CPU's, just 1. 17:05:21 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:06:56 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:07:36 ThomasH: ah i wondered what was causing that. facebook can hang as well. if not for my vimium keybindings, i'd be back in firefox. 17:09:20 CrazyThinker` [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 17:11:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:12:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:17:05 osa1 [~sinan@78.175.15.7] has joined #lisp 17:18:25 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@79.Red-88-7-134.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 17:18:33 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 17:19:14 -!- easy-iPad [~easyipad@213.47.71.36] has quit [Quit: Outta here?] 17:22:29 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:22:47 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@79.Red-88-7-134.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:23 -!- leth [~user@fsf/member/leth] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:26:18 bhaskara [~user@gw.willowgarage.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:45 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-195-244.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:35:43 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-159-153.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:59 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 17:36:13 -!- bsamograd [~user@184.71.240.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:37:42 bsod1 [~bsod1@78.175.15.7] has joined #lisp 17:38:36 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@79.Red-88-7-134.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 17:41:17 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@79.Red-88-7-134.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:13 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA25B7C.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:45:39 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:48:34 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 17:52:20 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 17:52:44 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:08 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:56:09 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:56:16 -!- Quadresce is now known as Qworkescence 17:58:23 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.60.144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:58:24 -!- dmiles_afk is now known as dmiles 17:58:25 -!- dmiles is now known as dmiles_afk 17:59:45 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-176.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 17:59:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:59:55 -!- gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:00:26 -!- bsod1 [~bsod1@78.175.15.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:00:32 -!- hugoduncan is now known as hugod 18:01:42 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:02:26 pnq [~nick@AC8146BB.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:07 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-63-146.lns1.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 18:03:55 leth [~user@fsf/member/leth] has joined #lisp 18:04:53 -!- pavelpenev [d4e986ac@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.233.134.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:05:25 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:05:44 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 18:06:38 bsod1 [~bsod1@78.175.15.7] has joined #lisp 18:08:06 -!- SpitfireWP [~spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: It's getting dark, too dark to see] 18:08:22 kilon [~user@athedsl-399780.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:08:55 -!- otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:09:45 -!- bsod1 [~bsod1@78.175.15.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:11:44 -!- kami`` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:15:18 -!- markskilbeck [~Mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 18:15:31 PuercoPop [~pirata@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 18:16:39 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: rpg] 18:17:46 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 18:20:11 entrix [~entrix@95-28-33-196.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 18:20:29 is there a way to get the fonts for directory/folder/pathnames in mcclim listener bigger ? 18:20:34 and mybe the icons too ? 18:20:39 bsod2 [~bsod2@78.175.15.7] has joined #lisp 18:21:11 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:21:20 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.175.15.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:21:21 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 18:21:36 osa1 [~sinan@78.175.15.7] has joined #lisp 18:22:38 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Client Quit] 18:23:14 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 18:23:41 wbooze: You have the source code, do you not? 18:24:15 wbooze: And ISTR there being something in terms of a mutable, per-port mapping from CLIM text styles to host fonts. 18:24:46 Guthur [~user@212.183.140.57] has joined #lisp 18:25:04 Is there a way to tell SLIME/ASDF/SBCL (i.e. whoever's bugging me about it) to never load the .fasl if there was a compile error? 18:25:08 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 18:25:35 gigamonkey: yes 18:25:50 slime-load-failed-fasl 'never 18:26:45 -!- bsod2 [~bsod2@78.175.15.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:26:46 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-252-59.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:26:47 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:27:07 Thanks. 18:27:36 Xach: herep 18:27:45 Hi gigamonkey 18:28:29 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-159-153.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:28:48 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-155-127.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:01 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8146BB.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:29:36 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 18:29:45 And you? 18:29:47 Apparently not. 18:31:28 osa1__ [~sinan@78.175.15.7] has joined #lisp 18:32:56 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.175.15.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:34:12 steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:35:41 I'm baaaacckk 18:36:03 lol 18:36:25 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:36:26 Uh, we talked about this a bit in passing before but is there any way to make quicklisp refresh the stuff under dists/quicklisp/software/... 18:36:36 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 18:36:39 M-. accidentally took me to a version of Manifest there and I started editing. 18:36:50 ql:update-all-dists ? 18:37:02 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:05 ql:update-client ? for quicklisp itself 18:37:17 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-195-244.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:19 ddp [~ddp@anon-159-64.relakks.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:39 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.46.12.117] has quit [Quit:    ] 18:40:55 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has left #lisp 18:43:35 bsod2 [~bsod2@78.175.15.7] has joined #lisp 18:43:35 -!- bsod2 [~bsod2@78.175.15.7] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:43:37 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:46:00 bsod1 [~bsod1@78.175.15.7] has joined #lisp 18:46:27 ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.138.222] has joined #lisp 18:49:41 -!- ddp [~ddp@anon-159-64.relakks.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:50:36 CallToPower [~CallToPow@calltopower.org] has joined #lisp 18:51:21 -!- CallToPower [~CallToPow@calltopower.org] has left #lisp 18:53:02 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 18:54:40 CallToPower [~CallToPow@calltopower.org] has joined #lisp 18:54:56 -!- CallToPower [~CallToPow@calltopower.org] has left #lisp 18:55:08 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 18:56:37 ivan-kan` [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 18:56:59 -!- vantage|work [~chatzilla@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 8.0/20111104165243]] 18:57:14 -!- ivan-kan` [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Client Quit] 18:58:34 Hey, is there a library out there for rescaling JPEG images? 18:58:57 nyef: resampling? 18:59:05 However it's done. 18:59:07 nyef: or scaling? 18:59:29 they're two different operations 18:59:31 Suppose I have a 640x480 image, and need a thumbnail version of it. 18:59:59 imagemagick/graphicsmagick 19:00:11 don't know that there's bindings for them, though 19:00:13 Mmm. As a call-out from lisp, though? 19:00:44 I also don't want to have to include calls to RUN-PROGRAM or similar in my server. 19:01:02 nyef: i use cl-gd, works great 19:02:21 Looks good, thanks. 19:02:32 ivan-kan` [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 19:02:38 -!- ivan-kan` [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:03:58 ivan-kan` [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 19:04:02 nyef: maybe https://github.com/hanshuebner/quickhoney/blob/master/src/imageproc.lisp gives you some inspiration 19:04:17 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-63-146.lns1.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:04:38 -!- ivan-kan` [~user@89.83.137.164] has left #lisp 19:06:31 Thanks again. 19:07:50 gigamonkey: uninstall/reinstall maybe 19:07:56 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-114-40.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 19:11:38 would cffi provide me with any way to dispatch a method foreign-ptr 19:11:52 in sbcl this is SB-SYS:SYSTEM-AREA-POINTER 19:12:09 which can be dispatched on 19:12:37 no 19:13:54 ivan-kan` [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 19:13:56 Xach: that's a big hammer. But okay. I guess I need to anyway since I took the CDB client update before you told us not to. 19:14:05 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:14:37 -!- ivan-kan` [~user@89.83.137.164] has left #lisp 19:14:59 Well, it seems to be mostly ok. 19:15:02 crap, cheers for the confirmation stassats 19:15:07 I can't reproduce the problem so the more people who try it the better. 19:15:15 gigamonkey: not of all of quicklisp!! 19:15:21 gigamonkey: Of just Manifest. 19:15:41 (ql:uninstall "manifest") 19:16:23 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.193.184] has joined #lisp 19:17:17 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129181119.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:18:25 ivan-kan` [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 19:19:04 Xach: which is mostly okay, the new client? 19:19:22 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.138.222] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:19:29 CallToPower [~CallToPow@calltopower.org] has joined #lisp 19:19:35 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:06 -!- ivan-kan` [~user@89.83.137.164] has left #lisp 19:20:18 The new client is mostly ok. 19:20:56 I got one problem report that I can't reproduce and one problem report that is not a huge deal 19:22:35 -!- bsod1 [~bsod1@78.175.15.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:23:26 It paves the way for easier access to system descriptions, too. 19:25:10 bsod1 [~bsod1@78.175.15.7] has joined #lisp 19:25:42 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:49 gigamonkey: I'm still trying to figure out how to get manifest to work in my test build environment 19:27:52 sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-91-219.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 19:29:16 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-91-219.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:29:55 -!- bsod1 [~bsod1@78.175.15.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:29:57 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 19:30:26 bsod2 [~bsod2@78.175.15.7] has joined #lisp 19:30:31 -!- CallToPower [~CallToPow@calltopower.org] has left #lisp 19:31:07 gigamonkey, did you get my email a couple weeks ago by any chance about manifest? 19:33:41 bsamograd [~user@184.71.240.90] has joined #lisp 19:34:28 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:53 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:36:19 saint_cypher [~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has joined #lisp 19:39:27 Xach: anything I can do to help? 19:39:36 Qworkescence: about documenting internals? 19:39:44 hi. there's a bit of discussion going regarding constant string-hashing being a security risk in a web-environment (because hashes are used to store POST parameters). I'm looking at changing ABCL's hashing to use a non-constant base instead of a base 0. How do others look at this issue? 19:40:07 gigamonkey, it was from my quadricode at gmail address, it was about failure to compile 19:40:18 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 19:40:43 gigamonkey: I'm not sure. What manifest does is reasonable, it's just that quicklisp is not quicklisp-installable or even really asdf-loadable. 19:40:57 It's "special" 19:41:25 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.185.237] has joined #lisp 19:41:41 brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has joined #lisp 19:41:45 Qworkescence: have you tried recently. I changed something to make it use CLOSER-MOP in more like the correct way. 19:41:57 stassats` [~stassats@pppoe.178-66-94-103.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 19:42:01 -!- stassats` [~stassats@pppoe.178-66-94-103.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Changing host] 19:42:01 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:42:06 pnq [~nick@ACA3574D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:42:58 Xach: Perhaps I should #-(:quicklisp) the stuff that depends on Quicklisp? 19:43:03 gigamonkey, not recently, but I'll give it a shot now 19:43:07 Or, rather #+ 19:43:28 Qworkescence: I think the version in Quicklisp is older than that change. 19:44:16 gigamonkey: that would help, actually. 19:44:46 As short-term fixes go 19:45:40 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:46:29 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:46:41 ehu: just copy perl, they were the only safe ones :) 19:46:53 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 19:46:58 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:48 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 19:51:08 felideon: hehe. well, I could, but I'm more interested in the considerations. 19:52:05 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:52:34 McCarthy is on the cover of this months CACM 19:52:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-18-7.dyn.bashtel.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:49 gigamonkey, as you might expect, it failed with the newest quicklisp 19:53:03 felideon: I could easily make it randomized my initializing "int hashCode = 0" to be replaced by "int hashCode = " 19:53:50 but the question is how that affects my hashing algorithm. 19:54:00 -!- steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: quit?] 19:54:02 Qworkescence: yeah, you'll need to grab it from github. 19:54:53 gigamonkey: I got manifest from github but it gives me a 500 error with the latest quicklisp client. 19:55:15 Xach: oh, crap. Too many moving pieces. 19:55:23 Xach, when are you going to appease the masses and automate the grabbing of bleeding edge software. surely you have nothing better to do 19:55:39 Sorry, toot is in flux at the moment too. 19:55:47 Qworkescence: Xach is saving you from yourself. 19:56:08 Xach: you have a dist update coming up soon? 19:56:11 gigamonkey: yes 19:56:11 by "grab bleeding edge", I mean "grab bleeding edge at the command of the user but will not occur if not explicitly commanded to" 19:56:22 Xach: okay, let me get things pushed around where they need to be. 19:56:26 ok 19:56:31 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 19:56:39 gigamonkey: I hope I didn't break anything with my changes. If I did, let me know. 19:56:53 Which changes? 19:57:06 gigamonkey: I changed how metadata is looked up. 19:57:25 well, I think the Manifest QL integration is currently using that .txt file you sent me a couple weeks back. 19:57:37 Internally, anyway; if you used the public, exported interface and it broke something, I'm very keen on fixing it. 19:58:07 I'll let you know. But it seems to be working. On my machine. ;-) 19:59:15 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.140.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03:24 -!- CrazyWoods [~crazywood@125.77.219.15] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:03:58 Xach: okay, try grabbing toot and manifest now. 20:04:17 And if you want to send me an updated version of that descriptions file I'll drop it in. 20:04:43 Or if you have an API for that now, I'll use it. 20:08:29 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA3574D.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:09:21 gigamonkey: i have the descriptions in a cdb file 20:09:45 that will be distributed with future quicklisp dists, and available via something like (ql-dist:description system) 20:10:38 pnq [~nick@ACA38568.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:01 I'm happy to use a private API for the moment and update it when you have an official one. 20:11:28 Modius [~user@72-48-144-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:39 -!- Modius [~user@72-48-144-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:47 ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.138.222] has joined #lisp 20:14:09 But one way or the other, if you'e going to ship the ql enabled manifest in the next dist, it should probably show up-to-date information about the dist. 20:14:58 I get this: "The function MANIFEST::S is undefined." 20:15:20 snearch [~snearch@e179158116.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:17:50 gigamonkey: my end or your end? 20:21:13 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.138.222] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:22:32 mensch [~mensch@c-174-62-210-182.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:55 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:25:25 ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.138.222] has joined #lisp 20:25:50 Uh, I don't see that. And I don't know of any function named S. 20:25:55 Where? 20:26:26 Ah, is there a with-response-body macro defined in http.lisp in toot? 20:27:18 Bah, emacs lossage. Hang on. 20:28:04 No, I take that back. But the macro should be in api.lisp in toot. 20:28:37 Or, possibly I updated some other library. (See what you get for encouraging us to split our monoliths up into little part.) 20:29:36 SpitfireWP [~spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 20:29:54 mgolawala [~Mustansir@64.125.182.144] has joined #lisp 20:31:46 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-226-184.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:07 Okay, one more try. Grab manifest again. (I'm not sure I always seem to pick the time you're working on a dist update to work on my stuff.) 20:32:21 -!- mgolawala [~Mustansir@64.125.182.144] has left #lisp 20:33:45 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-236-160.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:33:49 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:35:00 works like unto a charm 20:35:06 gigamonkey: did you add the #+quicklisp bits? 20:36:19 I did. 20:36:28 Or I tried. Given my track record this morning, who knows. 20:37:20 There's a quicklisp.lisp file that only gets included in the .asd under protection of #+quicklisp 20:38:02 -!- splittist [d9f3f334@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.243.243.52] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:38:06 works nicely, thanks 20:39:32 ehu: I vaguely remember someone at carleton who had seemingly-useful work on universal hashing for strings. 20:43:44 ehu: although, if you're doing add/multiply modulo k, changing only the seed isn't very strong. It only helps distinguish between strings of different length. 20:44:51 Xach: I just pushed an update to monkeylib-html which manifest will need next time I push it. 20:45:44 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 20:45:59 -!- kami` is now known as kami 20:46:49 how can I list files in a folder? 20:47:08 DIRECTORY 20:49:27 Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:30 stassats`: are there standard functions for working on pathnames(like getting file name, root folder name etc.) or sould I split them with string operations? 20:49:46 yes, there are 20:49:59 osa1__: the PCL book has a great chapter on it 20:50:01 read the spec part on pathnames 20:50:15 ok, thanks 20:50:31 there's a lot to love and hate about pathnames 20:50:49 i love to hate pathnames 20:51:16 well, that's a popular stance 20:51:48 ehu: it's over my head. could you link me to the article that states that we're doing it all wrong? 20:52:29 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:52:45 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:53:54 madnificent: http://www.nruns.com/_downloads/advisory28122011.pdf 20:54:17 -!- _death [void@my.islamicradio.ir] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:54:19 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:20 marsell [~marsell@120.18.244.244] has joined #lisp 20:56:16 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:29 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest85397 20:56:42 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-176.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 20:57:41 -!- CrazyThinker` [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:57:43 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:58 gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:29 -!- Guest85397 is now known as X-Scale 21:00:34 ehu: thanks 21:04:31 ehu: nice approach 21:04:40 ... I'm disappoint with available protocol buffer libs :/ 21:04:50 -!- leth [~user@fsf/member/leth] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:57 -!- entrix [~entrix@95-28-33-196.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:11:26 CrazyThinker` [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 21:12:23 Frozenlock [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:42 Hi, I'm still trying to understand quasiquotation and I wonder what is the correct behavior http://paste.lisp.org/display/126885 21:16:31 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 21:16:35 daimrod: both are 21:17:06 stassats`: ah, that was what I suspected 21:17:48 Interesting, slime doesn't have a REPL by default. In what way can Slime be used without a REPL? 21:18:10 (doens't have -anymore-) 21:18:15 Frozenlock: does it matter? 21:18:18 masochism ? 21:18:34 Well yes, I don't want to be missing on a cute new way to use it :D 21:18:54 Frozenlock: i don't know anybody, except the slime maintainer, who finds it sane 21:19:01 Frozenlock: Try: (+ 1 2) C-u C-x C-e in a .lisp buffer. 21:23:27 pjb: seems like the C-j in the scratch buffer. Never found a pratical way to use that. 21:23:54 *Frozenlock* lacks something called imagination 21:23:59 Frozenlock: you also get things like the debugger, inspector, macroexpansion, and so on 21:24:26 but there's no real reasons not to use the REPL 21:24:55 unless you're some kinky old-school grumbler 21:25:07 -!- gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25:19 Frozenlock: so in emacs, you do everything with M-x ielm RET ? 21:25:36 i do 21:26:32 -!- snearch [~snearch@e179158116.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:27:13 *Xach* too 21:27:16 After working in CL for a while, I found myself increasingly using ielm. 21:28:12 pjb: if I'm developping something yes. Otherwise I juste C-x C-e to define function written in any buffer, or I'll M-: 21:28:31 But for developpement, a repl seems to be a must 21:28:52 Frozenlock: most emacs users don't even know ielm exists. 21:29:06 ielm? 21:29:15 Sad. 21:30:01 Frozenlock: has anyone pointed out to you that SLIME still has a REPL? 21:30:05 And most aren't emacs users, which is even sadder :P 21:30:06 You just have to enable it. 21:31:04 gigamonkey: (slime-setup '(slime-repl)), yes, but I just found it weird 21:31:16 Ralith just outed himself. 21:31:24 Yeah. It's weird. FWIW, you may want something like (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf slime-banner)) 21:31:37 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.213.110] has joined #lisp 21:31:37 That includes the REPL and a bunch of other goodies. 21:31:47 ThomasH: want to correct my misguided ways? 21:32:01 Oh thanks! I'll try that 21:32:17 Ralith: Just info on ielm, it's actually pretty handy. I'd say more handy than the scratch buffer. 21:32:23 Ralith: M-x ielm will start a repl for emacs-lisp 21:32:29 why would I want that? 21:33:01 *very* little of my time in emacs is spent messing with elisp. 21:33:23 when you grow up, you'll have to mess with elisp more 21:33:27 Lol 21:33:46 I was going to ask if I could name you "son" 21:34:01 Ralith: It's good to know in case you find yourself in a job where you have access to emacs but not CL. 21:34:36 I'm not sure what use that would be 21:34:59 mope [~mope@host86-148-71-158.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:11 gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:11 ThomasH: really, nowadays? 21:36:00 zmv: Never assume rational corporate IT policy. 21:36:09 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:37:44 never assume rational corporate policy at all. 21:37:55 *ThomasH* nods 21:38:44 why I can't pass value of `forms` variable in the last form http://paste.lisp.org/display/126886 ? when I copy the value of `forms` and pass to the macro, it works but when I don't, it works like value of `forms` is '() 21:38:49 Frozenlo` [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:09 osa1__: because it's not how macros work 21:39:23 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:39:38 or "when" 21:39:48 -!- Frozenlo` is now known as Frozenlock` 21:39:49 one of the corporate policies I have to deal with: your password must be EXACTLY 8 characters long, including an uppercase character, a lowercase character, minimally one punctuation character , but may not: contain any characters of your name, nor may contain more than two digits 21:40:22 ehu: my bank makes me have a password consisting of 5 digits 21:40:31 (why EXACTLY 8 characters???) 21:40:45 because someone wrote a terrible database somewhere, probably 21:40:48 osa1__: perhaps macroexpand-1 can clarify things 21:40:48 yay for password policies that *reduce* the keyspace 21:40:51 yea. these things are stupid, but unfortunately unavoidable. 21:40:54 what if your name is "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog"? 21:41:10 stassats`: lol. I'll tell that to the authorization desk. 21:41:13 thanks! 21:41:32 -!- Frozenlock [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:41:44 Ralith: well, an md5 hash of my password has predictable length :-) 21:41:45 BCE hep you if you're welsh. 21:41:48 drdo: i find it the most funny error: "password too long. please don't use a pasword over 16 characters" 21:41:50 Which brings another point: most company doesn't even need to have password protected stuff. 21:41:53 So, the longer your name, the less difficult it is to crack your password. Brilliant! 21:41:53 ehu: indeed. 21:41:53 madnificent: macroexpand-1 returned just the same form: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126887 21:42:12 drdo: A) I try to enter a sane password for them at that point and B) they most likely don't hash it 21:42:14 -!- Frozenlock` is now known as Frozenlock 21:42:23 ehu: or maybe they allow unicode characters? 21:43:06 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:43:07 madnificent: I never understood where these arbitrary restrictions come from, i mean, sure have some limit so i can't have a 10GB password, but... 21:43:14 osa1__: Annotate please 21:43:50 osa1__: you want to expand (standard-page (:title "Log List") forms) instead 21:44:14 last error message I had: "your password cannot be equal to the last 200 passwords". So I called the authorization desk asking them for a list. "Sorry sir, we don't have that" / "Then how do you know my next one to be equal to any of my last 200 passwords???" (sigh) 21:44:24 drdo: it is because they store the password plaintext in a table and they thought "what would be a sane limit" the less good the administrator is, the shorter the maximal password length. 21:44:53 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:44:57 ehu: they might just keep the hashes around (hopefully) 21:45:00 drdo: and sadly i've learned that by doing it when i was younger and didn't know better yet. though i don't think i ever had live code with those things in it. 21:45:29 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:37 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:46:18 madnificent: but hashing it even makes your life easier if you care about fixed sized 21:46:29 though i do remember a rental shop which asked you for a password of 4 numbers. and 0000 and 4444 weren't allowed because they were picked far too often. when people had to enter a number, those were the ones that popped up quite often. 21:46:42 drdo: it does once you know a hash exists :) 21:46:51 pkhuong: that's probably it. but they know better what my last 200 passwords looked like than I do. So, now I'm forced to keep a list -- which btw isn't allowed. 21:47:43 I can sort of understand making you have numbers and punctuation if they get too many complaints from people picking "password" as a password 21:47:55 ehu: you can probably encode 0-199 with numbers and letters that aren't in your name. 21:48:12 Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.212.106] has joined #lisp 21:48:12 -!- pnathan [~Adium@98.145.116.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:49:17 and sooner or later you'll run out of passwords to make 21:49:35 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:51:30 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 21:52:16 -!- nha_ [~prefect@p3E9E5BC2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:53:08 Awww cmon, why u no working 21:53:13 *** - LOAD: A file with name *****\elpa\slime-20100404.1\swank-loader.lisp does not exist 21:53:30 Because the file doesn't exist. 21:53:33 Lol 21:54:04 >elpa 21:54:09 there's your problem 21:54:17 How so? 21:54:33 because it doesn't work for you, or does it? 21:54:56 Ok, let me detail my question: why the hell isn't swank included in the package 21:55:19 It's a trap 21:55:21 i don't think anybody uses elpa for slime here 21:55:24 And I was caught 21:55:36 because swank is a CL thing, not an emacs thing 21:55:42 so you contact elpa support 21:55:49 use quicklisp not elpa. 21:55:49 s/you// 21:56:08 or CVS 21:56:15 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-114-40.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:56:38 -!- gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:56:55 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.185.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:59:57 nha_ [~prefect@p3E9E5BC2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:35 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:54 ddp [~ddp@anon-135-153.relakks.com] has joined #lisp 22:02:19 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.190.39.231] has joined #lisp 22:02:37 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@INDIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has left #lisp 22:03:33 -!- Frozenlock [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:41 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-195-244.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:10:28 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-195-244.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:10:41 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.145.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:11:22 Shouldn't the 'note: doing signed word to integer coercion' in http://paste.lisp.org/+2PWQ go away with the declaim ftype? 22:11:45 no 22:12:34 and you should really declare that array as (simple-array (signed-byte 32) (*)) 22:14:34 vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-150-249.dsl.sil.at] has joined #lisp 22:15:02 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-195-244.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:17:23 stassats`: can you give me a small hint why the note remains? 22:17:26 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:53 because a 32-bit integer needs to boxed on a 32-bit platform 22:18:06 but your function is inlined, so just disregard the note 22:18:39 stassats`: thank you. 22:19:17 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:20:11 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:20:51 -!- nicdev_ [~user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:22:35 -!- mope [~mope@host86-148-71-158.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:23:14 mope [~mope@host86-166-166-114.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:03 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:24:45 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-195-244.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:26:24 stassats`: and a (simple-array (signed-byte 32) *) can be multi-dimensional? 22:26:31 yes 22:26:39 stassats`: thanks again! 22:27:33 Good night. 22:28:08 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-195-244.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:28:19 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 22:28:33 Guthur [~user@host86-147-204-196.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:06 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has left #lisp 22:36:07 Kron [~Kron@199.91.212.106] has joined #lisp 22:36:15 -!- Kron [~Kron@199.91.212.106] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:37:32 Kron [~Kron@199.91.212.106] has joined #lisp 22:37:57 -!- Kron is now known as Guest49575 22:38:47 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.212.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:40:13 -!- ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:40:27 ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:08 -!- CrazyThinker` [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:42:56 am I right with my guess that the ~r, ~p, ... format directives are there because of lisp's AI background? 22:42:58 Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.212.106] has joined #lisp 22:43:20 naeg: no 22:43:51 how do ~r and ~p relate to AI? 22:43:52 they don't look particularly intelligent to me 22:44:14 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-195-244.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:44:17 -!- Guest49575 [~Kron@199.91.212.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:44:17 it helps you generate (simple) messages for humans 22:44:31 they just wanted to snork everyone's flads, so they put in all sorts of crazy stuff 22:44:44 that's the purpose of almost any program 22:45:09 naeg: luckily the crazy stuff rme talks about isn't limited to cool looking strings 22:45:12 naeg: http://gigamonkeys.wordpress.com/2010/10/07/lost-u-directive/ 22:45:16 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 22:45:28 apropos rme's comment 22:45:34 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:45:41 madnificent: it's *all* crazy stuff! 22:45:51 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-152-178.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:46:04 btw, madnificent upon further reflection I'm considering coming around to your point of view regarding the whistle config. 22:49:05 gigamonkey: i'm bothered with it in my head. i still have my personal preference but after it being in my head for so long i haven't found something stating that the alternative is superior in all ways. it's a complex issue, you're rather nice design only makes it more complex to speak bad of your solution. 22:50:00 gigamonkey: i still stand by my point of view though. i wonder if there's something that can be done to make lispers prefer the standardized form (which is indeed easier to understand by an administrator) 22:50:02 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:14 madnificent: well, one issue that I realized was behind my original desire for a "dead" config file was that it gives you easy control over what you're configuring. I.e. I make an object and then say "configure this object with this config file" 22:52:20 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:52:40 If I make the config file "live" then I have to control how it's loaded: create the object, bind it to a special variable and then LOAD the config file. 22:53:26 So there are really three choices: dead config file in non-Lisp DSL, live config file (with all of CL) except specially loaded, and pure code where it's up to the user to arrange to load the file just like any other piece of code. 22:53:27 gigamonkey: that post of steele would have been a cool feature btw :) 22:53:34 yeah, I wish they had put it in. 22:53:41 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:54:08 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-egqnrnhptbghcvxa] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:54:09 -!- whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kynoqvgqdgtxzyio] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:54:12 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:48 as a user in #lisp, i'd obviously prefer the most smart system, in which it figures out when to load the load file *and* make sure i can do what i want. honoustly though, that sounds rather complex. 22:54:57 would it ever be an issue for users to load the config file at the right time? 22:55:14 it's their project, they can load it just like they load anything else... 22:55:26 CrazyThinker` [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 22:56:16 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 22:56:29 -!- PuercoPop [~pirata@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:56:48 madnificent: well, the idea is that the user may or may not be a Lisp programmer. I want, for instance, to be able to package a whistle server with buildapp so you can run whistle by pointing it at a directory that contains the config file, etc. 22:56:55 -!- mope [~mope@host86-166-166-114.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:57:46 gigamonkey: do you know how rails handles that? 22:58:09 -!- ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:58:09 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:59:42 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:45 ddp_ [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 22:59:47 -!- ddp_ [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:59:49 gigamonkey: it's simpler because it's an interpreted language, i guess, yet still. they package all the source, including config files in the rails project. the config files and the static files have dedicated folders, but it's actually nothing more than a convention (though rails users generally aren't that inclined to hack around, so they let it be). that way the administrator knows where to look and the system has an e 22:59:49 loading everything. 23:00:05 ddp_ [~ddp@93.182.131.75] has joined #lisp 23:00:06 nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:50 Yeah, but Ruby is weak. So you're not giving folk too much power. ;-) 23:01:02 But no, I'm not all that familiar with Rails. 23:01:03 gigamonkey: i don't know if you particularly like or dislike such a design, but it may be a viable option. 23:01:20 Frozenlock [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:29 gigamonkey: it wasn't to promote or disregard rails. i know the system, might as well provide you with the business summary of their approach. 23:01:41 pixie look in mclim does not work, it segfaults at tiffcp in libtiff somehow..... 23:01:57 I think the underlying issue is I find some value in drawing a line between configuration and programming. These are the things you can control via configuration and these are the things that require programming. 23:02:00 it has proven handy in the past for me personally though. if you do need to hack something in, you can easily do it by altering the sources (they're there for your project) 23:02:29 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-heuhxrolevasymsj] has joined #lisp 23:02:40 It simplifies the task of configuring for the simple cases when that line is drawn. And folks who want to do more complex things can obviously drop down to the programming level. 23:02:56 and i seem to not get even messages getting display larger in beirc, tho i changed all :small things into :large in message-display.lisp in beirc dir...... 23:02:58 Kron__ [~Kron@199.91.212.106] has joined #lisp 23:03:03 -!- ddp [~ddp@anon-135-153.relakks.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:03:13 -!- ddp_ is now known as ddp 23:03:26 the first time the pane is drawn it works, after someone writes a message to the channel all gets :small again.... 23:03:41 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.212.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:04:03 gigamonkey: i agree that such a line is going to be helpful in many cases. and a separate config file makes it easier to know where to look. i don't particularly like limiting the expressivenes of the config file. you never know when it's going to be handy. 23:04:30 the same with :background :foreground things for the panes.... 23:04:38 I'm unable to start slime: OPEN: Directory #P"C:\\Users\\FROZEN~1\\AppData\\Local\\Temp\\" does not exist. Anyone got this message before? Short paths problem? 23:05:30 a life config file makes me, as a programmer, feel more in control as well. i don't have to think about all sorts of magic which may be going on, i can just M-. the function if i care to know. i also know i'll be able to hack my way out of it if i'm doing something bad. and whilst that's not always the best solution, it does give me some confidence 23:05:34 *madnificent* doesn't like magic in code 23:06:35 knob [~knob@65-23-212-177.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:39 Good evening everyone =) 23:07:31 lo knob 23:07:38 hey 23:07:52 Frozenlock: that looks like the directory emacs looks for the .emacs file; does that only come up when you start slime or on emacs startup? 23:08:42 gigamonkey: btw, thanks for reconsidering 23:08:50 ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:59 Phoodus: only Slime 23:09:24 actually mine is in Roaming, not Local 23:09:39 -!- bsod2 [~bsod2@78.175.15.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:09:43 dunno 23:09:49 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:10:51 I found this http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/Lisp/comp.lang.lisp/2010-08/msg00130.html, but I have now idea where I need to change the path in order to NOT use short path. 23:12:09 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:13:48 gigamonkey: btw, if you want some more side-info on how rails tackles the directory structure, i could easily give it. it's not much more work than just typing it in a chat. i honoustly don't know if distributing web apps in that way is a good or a bad way in a language like lisp. i personally see few downsides though. 23:13:53 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:16:49 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-189-114.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:17:54 madnificent: If you feel like typing it up I'll read it. You have my email addy, I imagine. 23:19:23 leo2007 [~leo@123.123.251.72] has joined #lisp 23:21:26 -!- kilon [~user@athedsl-399780.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:22:08 wanderingelf [~yaaic@c-71-60-175-195.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:29 -!- Frozenlock [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:23:29 -!- wanderingelf [~yaaic@c-71-60-175-195.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:23:40 bsod2 [~bsod2@78.175.15.7] has joined #lisp 23:24:09 -!- bsod2 [~bsod2@78.175.15.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:14 -!- osa1__ [~sinan@78.175.15.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:29 Frozenlock [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:07 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:28:42 I have a (defmacro define-something (name &body clauses) ...) macro, but slime doesn't indent correctly the first clause. Same with &rest. What should I do? 23:29:02 -!- felideon [~user@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:29:06 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-110-93.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:30 -!- Frozenlock [~user@cable-quebec-15.246.173-179.electronicbox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:51 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:33:02 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 23:33:05 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:33:14 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 23:33:44 pjb: odd, works ok for me 23:33:50 *Xach* wonders how the sets-up might differ 23:34:06 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:35 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-heuhxrolevasymsj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:08 gigamonkey: could you give me a time-frame as to by when you expect it? the next two weeks are a bit hectic around here. 23:36:14 X-Scale [email@2001:5c0:1000:b::9eff] has joined #lisp 23:36:17 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:36:27 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest14989 23:36:30 madnificent: whenever you send it I'll read it. Meanwhile I'll stumble along on my own. ;-) 23:36:48 I can also go read about Rails. I think I even have a book about it somewhere. 23:36:56 great 23:36:58 pjb: also works for me. 23:37:33 (If by "works" we mean that after putting "(define-something foo" on one line the next line is only slightly indented.) 23:37:48 gigamonkey: i don't know if it's particularly interesting. aside from their ORM, sensible defaults and folder structure, and sensible naming, i doubt there's that much to discover. 23:37:52 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-86-188.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:38:18 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:17 are there any ways to open a file for exclusive access in CL? 23:40:50 mburke: if you open a file read/write your OS should handle it, no? 23:41:16 mburke: what does that mean? 23:41:37 meaning that if another process/thread tries to open the same file the operation will fail 23:41:50 mburke: not built-in 23:43:52 jt123 [~jayan@cpc4-lutn3-0-0-cust768.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:44:06 ah, okay 23:44:19 mburke: is that available elsewhere? i don't think i'm familiar with it on unix. 23:44:42 mburke: do you mean like the O_EXCL option to open(2)? 23:44:54 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 23:45:40 If so, O_EXCL|O_CREAT are reasonably emulated by :if-exists nil or :if-exists :error. 23:46:17 Xach: an implementation may signal an error when an operation couldn't be done (as per exceptional situations in CLHS f_open), i'd have assumed the file being locked would yield such an error. 23:47:03 madnificent: What does "file being locked" mean? 23:47:34 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ngnghvhvsifivfkr] has joined #lisp 23:47:39 I was thinking more along the file sharing mechanisms provided by Windows' CreateFile or fcntl/flock 23:47:39 Xach: if another process has a write-lock on the file. i think that is supported, as emacs can warn me about it when i try to open a file which another process is currently using. 23:47:48 hypercube32 [~hypercube@246.111.188.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:48:02 On most Unixes that I know of, file locking is "advisory'", which means "i'll pretend that I have exclusive access to this file if you'll pretend I do also." 23:48:19 madnificent: Do you know how Emacs does it? 23:48:19 rme: how do you discover a lock exists and how do you place one? 23:48:22 -!- CrazyThinker` [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:49:08 Xach: no, sorry. i have no formal knowledge of it, but i seem to recall trying to edit a log file by accident and receiving such a warning as well, so it's not something emacs-centric. 23:49:34 Maybe you don't remember very well. 23:49:37 Xach: it fits rme's concept of advisory though, as you can steal the file 23:49:40 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 23:49:53 doesn't mean it's not true though ;-) 23:50:22 mburke: To get that kind of advisory locking in CL you need to see what the implementation provides as extra-standard functionality. 23:50:31 mburke: SBCL has some things in sb-posix along those lines. 23:51:24 Don't know if it's available on file open, though. 23:51:31 (in the unix sense) 23:51:42 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.190.39.231] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 23:52:54 rme: file locks can become enforced, though 23:52:54 mburke: the short answer is "forget about it", at least on linux 23:53:04 madnificent: see lockf(3), flock(3), fcntl(3). Some programs also use custom schemes build around "lock files", but this is only useful when other programs are aware of the scheme. 23:53:19 -!- Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Cryotank2011] 23:53:49 mburke: I suggest you go deep into API docs for the systems you target, then ask your implementation for stream's underlying handle 23:54:20 yeah, I'll find some workaround, was just curious if this was already handled by open-and-friends. thanks! :) 23:54:31 one of the locking schemes is advisory completely, another afaik can be enforced depending on filesystem 23:54:49 mburke: it probably falls under "very, very OS-specific" 23:55:20 While ANSI CL was published in 1994, a lot of it has roots in much more varied OS-space 23:55:38 whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xotcelflruaurvyi] has joined #lisp 23:57:43 rme: so lockf, flock and fcntl are the 'standard' options? 23:58:24 p_l|home: even filesystem specific, perhaps