00:00:09 At the moment I'm playing with having a way to register handlers which can then be assigned to handle certain patterns of URLs. 00:00:24 dlowe: i'm saying that you don't need to be able to analyze the requests in all cases beforehand. and even if that were your goal, you could still allow users to have the full expressivenes of lisp at runtime to add/remove handlers and routes. and all that could still be checked. 00:00:45 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 00:00:53 madnificent: across hosts? 00:01:01 dlowe: across hosts? 00:01:06 madnificent: so I see adding handlers and routes at runtime an edge case. But I imagine it will possible in whistle if you really want it. 00:01:13 madnificent: yes. across multiple computers 00:01:34 gigamonkey: those tasks seem to me like it would be nice if users could write their own DSL if the DSL you provide doesn't suit their fancy or anything of the likes. 00:01:44 gigamonkey: thing is, it could be very complex. 00:02:06 Anyway, madnificent if you come up with explicit ways you use Hunchentoot (or whatever you use now) that seem like they would be painful Whistle, let me know and I'll think about how (and if) I think Wwhistle could make them easier. 00:02:08 dlowe: what are you talking about? why wouldn't you do the checking in the lisp image? 00:02:17 dlowe: you have a full programming environment at your service there 00:02:25 madnificent: because your sysadmins don't have access to the lisp image 00:02:39 What's the common opinion of Shen here? 00:03:02 I 00:03:23 madnificent: I think dlowe is saying (something like) the same thing I said a while back: with a config file that lists all the URL patterns that the server groks it's easy to look at that file and make sure none of them conflict, and they are well organized, etc. 00:03:48 dlowe: so you give them access to the lisp code which adds the rules. or you create a separate file which allows them to configure the rules you care about. still, you shouldn't be limiting in the expressivenes of the one that writes the web app itself. 00:04:01 jcowan_ [~John@cpe-98-14-172-212.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:09 gigamonkey: but that same file could be generated by something that was configured programatically 00:04:18 gigamonkey: thing is, once you get repetitive patterns, you'll get a mess 00:04:32 madnificent: perhaps. Come up with specific examples and I'll let you know what I think. 00:04:38 I'm saying that being unable to share your entire configuration with more than one tool is idiotic 00:04:47 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-98-14-172-212.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:04:50 -!- jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 00:05:04 for instance, if you choose not to support REST, and i do, then i'll have to go through a tedious way of configuring the things. if there's a programming environment, i can easily create an abstraction. 00:05:31 dlowe: no, you're saying you want dumb configuration files, that's a different thing. 00:05:38 madnificent: You're being too abstract for me. 00:06:00 gigamonkey: you know representational state transfer, right? 00:06:01 madnificent: configuration files that are turing-complete are not able to be shared 00:06:14 madnificent: I think so. 00:06:33 madnificent: and I didn't say that's what I wanted. 00:06:34 dlowe: perhaps you don't need to express everything in the shared configuration file. 00:06:37 Configuration tends to fall into three categories: parameters, code, and half-arsed. 00:07:00 I just recommend avoiding half-arsed. 00:07:02 gigamonkey: so say you don't want to support that in your configuration files (if you do, then pick any other idiotic scheme which you don't want to support) 00:07:25 Zhivago: Which one is Lua 00:07:27 ? 00:07:38 Zhivago: I've seen configuration files that contained code that generated an analyzable block. That actually worked pretty well. 00:07:54 Presumably lua is 'code'. 00:07:59 gigamonkey: now my manager comes around and he shouts at me "we want REST because it's cool". so i now want to be able to write, in the configuration file, how to implement rest for a particular resource. 00:08:39 madnificent: I'm not sure what you mean by support REST in a config file. 00:08:52 Zhivago: it started out as parameters; there might even still be a parameter-only mode. 00:09:03 Or "not support" 00:09:05 REST, being representational state transfer 00:09:17 Lua started out as parameters? 00:09:24 not support being, you haven't built an abstraction to make it easy to enter such a rule 00:09:47 hehe 00:10:07 gigamonkey: now under the exact same idea people could say that the handlers should be picked by the configuration of a database somewhere somehow. 00:10:08 Zhivago: yes. It was a pure logic-free configuration syntax that slowly acquired programmability. 00:10:13 *homie* greets Zhivago 00:10:17 Qi II's license *seems* GPL-compatible 00:10:23 pkhuong: Fair enough. 00:10:28 Shen's doesn't 00:12:48 madnificent: I really don't know what you're getting at with the REST example. 00:13:09 gigamonkey: you construct a configuration file thing, people may want to have something different than what you offer 00:13:28 If you're saying maybe configuration should be stored in a database, I'd agree that ideally there is a configuration API that would allow one to configure the server programmatically in order to support that. 00:13:34 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128077088.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 00:13:46 madnificent: yes, that is the nature of writing software. If you write one thing, they may want another. 00:13:54 If you don't like Whistle, use Toot. 00:14:00 and the database could be stored in human-readable files for version control purposes! ;) 00:14:08 you have one of the sexiest programming languages in your hands which doesn't mind it if you read full fledged code at runtime. but you decide to write dumb files instead of something in that sexy language. doesn't make sense to me. 00:15:00 it's like my .emacs file. i can make it simple because i can express myself in it. 00:15:01 madnificent: The whole purpose of Whistle is to provide an easier to use web server on top of Toot which is essentially a web server library. 00:15:09 hydo [~hydo@c-71-227-138-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:19 If you want complete control of everything (except the implementation of HTTP) use Toot. 00:15:28 -!- vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtech.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:15:31 If you want certain common patterns abstracted away, use Whistle. 00:15:52 i don't, i'm saying that static configuration files are a very limiting concept (and i don't understand how on earth they fit in a lisp world) 00:15:54 why hunchentoot web server (installed using quicklisp under Fedora 15) is hanging after requesting a page (sometimes working after Ctrl-C and restart)? 00:16:10 That said, even in whistle you can define one URL (:url ".*" my-handler) and then go to town doing the dispatching yourself. 00:16:26 why hunchentoot: hanging occurs with cmucl, sbcl is working 00:16:39 gigamonkey: so what i'm saying is, the default doesn't seem to make sense to me 00:16:54 zzach: odd, cmucl has threads, right? 00:17:11 zzach: are you sure it's not still responding to the first request? I don't think cmucl does threads. 00:17:12 madnificent: fuck man, Whistle basically doesn't provide anything but a way to configure Toot! 00:17:19 That's it's whole job! 00:17:26 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:17:41 If you want to control everything yourself with hand-written code just use Toot and ignore Whistle. 00:17:50 yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:17:51 gigamonkey: yes, but why arbitrarily limit the configuration in a dumb configuration file, instead of in a smart one (dumb wasn't an insult earlier on, but might've been interpreted that way, sorry) 00:17:54 I suggest we table the discussion until madnificent has to support surly sysadmins. 00:18:15 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-96-241-99-101.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:18:28 i tried the cmucl 20c binary from the common-lisp.net server 00:18:35 madnificent: because I--who perhaps can be granted to be aware of Lisp's awsomeness and general capabalities--sometimes prefer to limit the configuration of a server to something more declarative. 00:19:00 gigamonkey: and why can't that declarative thing not be lisp code? 00:19:13 dlowe: or has to support ingrate programmers. 00:19:36 madnificent: because that's not what I want. 00:19:48 And I'm writing this thing to make my life easier. 00:19:48 LiamH [~healy@pool-96-241-99-101.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:52 dlowe: the argument that i must grant you is, you may want to limit what sysadmins can break. but that's about it. 00:20:14 madnificent: It's about what sysadmins can query with their tools, too 00:21:00 madnificent: Anyway, I'm done talking about this until you give me clear example of "this is specifically what I want to do and here's why it would be gross with the Whistle config file." 00:21:07 dlowe: qeurying and altering are two different things though 00:21:16 it's also about sysadmins having pretty much zero tolerance for anything containing lambda forms 00:22:11 I'd like to be granted some credibility on this issue too, working in operations on a (once) lisp-based company 00:22:13 gigamonkey: sorry, i doubt i'll spend my time on it 00:22:39 dlowe: you mean s-expressions, right? 00:22:55 madnificent: no, they were ok with s-expressions 00:23:12 dlowe: why would there be something else than s-expressions in a normal configuration file? 00:23:24 just not with something like (setf *port-decider-func* (lambda (hostname) ...)) 00:23:29 madnificent: hunchentoot seems to use bordeaux-threads, were set up as quicklisp dependency 00:23:35 madnificent: okay. 00:23:36 dlowe: hey. I would exchange xml config files versus s-expressions and lambda forms any day. I'm a sysadmin. But I do get your point on the 'non-executable' part of things 00:23:55 koollman: the non-executable part is the important bit that I'm getting at 00:24:39 dlowe: i do agree that you should write things in a way that makes your sysadmin happy. but that seems to mean that escaping isn't necessarily a bad thing, you just have to know what your sysadmin is willing to accept and what not. 00:24:40 Lua is "data structure" that grew into "code". 00:24:52 dlowe: for the record, i'm not a fan of cryptic configuration files either 00:24:59 still, I don't get mad if the config part is really a shell script. it *can* get ugly and executable if needed but most of the time will be really just declarative 00:25:14 so it's probably ok with lisp too. 00:25:19 koollman: if the config is bad enough, it'll get wrapped in a shell script :) 00:25:22 It's pretty vulnerable to exploits to use code, though. 00:25:23 as long as 'executable form' is not the default. just a possibility 00:25:38 koollman is better in communicating ideas than i am 00:25:46 jcowan: pretty sure it was configuration for an oil industry tool. 00:25:50 helloo 00:25:54 Yes. 00:26:02 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-98-14-172-212.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:26:02 that is, it must be possible to write an 'inert' configuration file. but making it impossible to have a dynamic one is a bad choice ;) 00:26:18 vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtechnology.com] has joined #lisp 00:26:38 jcowan: I wouldn't call "everything is a hash table except when it's close enough to a vector" "data structure" ;) 00:26:39 *koollman* wishes some configuration files were executable... so much less configuration code to write around it. 00:27:11 gigamonkey: does what koollman says make sense to you? 00:27:48 where I work we have a expression evaluation as part of the config loading process 00:28:02 it can be very useful 00:28:27 madnificent: I understand all the words. And I understand how if there's a mismatch between what the configuration language lets you express and what you need to express, then a more powerful language is appealing. 00:28:30 Guthur: and with lisp we can get it for free \o/ which is one of the things i like about the language 00:28:42 we can also embedded TCL which is even better 00:28:42 But I'm still waiting for a specific example I can sink my teeth into. 00:29:37 the chances of any Lisp where I work are very close to zero, unless you count emacs 00:30:04 there are a couple emacs users 00:31:21 I'll certainly stipulate that if you just say, here's a turing complete language you can use to configure things you'll never run into something you can't express. 00:31:36 gigamonkey: how about the REST example. i'd want to specify (rest 'book) and then it would generate the paths (:get "/books/" 'list-books) (:get "/books/:id" 'get-book) (:put "/books" 'create-book) (:get "/books/create" 'new-book) (:put "/books/:id/delete" 'delete-book) if that form makes sense. 00:32:03 on tangentially related note, would sending s-exp to be eval'ed on remote server with the aim of providing some distributed processing be a patently bad idea? 00:32:28 Guthur: security-wise? 00:32:43 yeah I'm thinking that and stability 00:32:45 gigamonkey: sometimes being able to have the equivalent of a loop (or a templating system) helps to make the configuration much more understandable (and if the config language is declarative and not handling this possibility it means either regenerating the config regularly or hacking the program to do some more dynamic stuff) 00:32:49 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 00:33:22 gigamonkey: and once you have the idea of 'templates' in a config file, pretty soon you want conditionnals, iterations, and other things. 00:33:24 Guthur: i doubt you can easily get it secure, and as it's turing complete i guess you could crash the lisp image also 00:33:55 and as everyone knows, you will end up with a half-baked, partial and bug-ridden implemenation of lisp ;) 00:34:01 one half baked idea was to have a governing lisp image that would dispatch to other processing images 00:34:08 greenspun's tenth rule, in lisp \o/ 00:34:32 and maybe some chroot'ing would help 00:34:55 Guthur: i don't see that going terribly wrong if you're sure they run under different users and don't have access to any odd resources 00:35:14 Guthur: are you a spy ? 00:35:18 madnificent: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126835 00:35:21 Guthur: what's the worst thing that can happen? they can make the lisp image crash because it lacks heap space, or they could delete files. 00:35:23 lol 00:35:39 Guthur: it's about as bad as running a shell-interpreter on the remote server. so, either horrible, or 'controllable'. you decide ;) 00:35:44 koollman: if you're configuration needs loops and conditionals then you need a programming language. 00:35:44 homie: not the last time I checked 00:36:01 gigamonkey: now assume you didn't support rest 00:36:10 madnificent: what does that mean? 00:36:25 gigamonkey: because that's the thing, we aren't only going to do things you expected we would do 00:36:25 would I be just implementing yet another cloud solution? hehe 00:36:39 in example, we could want to dispatch for a semantic web application 00:36:43 gigamonkey: not always. here's an example. I work in a hosting company. our apache configuration handles tens of thousands of virtual hosts. the base configuration language of apache does not handle that. 00:36:57 madnificent: the only reason that config snippet "supports" REST is because my-rest-handler does. 00:37:00 And that's the name of a class. 00:37:05 gigamonkey: fortunately someone made a module to have a template vhost with dynamic parts. 00:37:14 but ... it's a bit ugly to use. 00:37:30 if the configuration langage wasn't so declarative, it could be easier to write it. 00:37:39 gigamonkey: so now i'd want to have that for 100 different resources, and i'd have to write 100 loc? 00:37:42 (of course, it could be easier to write a very very wrong version of it) 00:38:53 madnificent: depends. If they all follow the same pattern I'd probably embed that logic in the handler. 00:39:08 I might just do (:urls ("^/rest/(\\w+)/.*" rest-handler :what $1 )) 00:39:09 so we're basically allowing random config files but just not allowing code to be in the config file? /o\ 00:39:32 madnificent: no, I'm providing an abstraction of mapping from patterns of urls to the handlers that handle them. 00:39:49 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:39:54 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:40:15 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.158.15] has joined #lisp 00:40:26 I've said from the beginning that it's reasonable for the API for configuring the server to be exposed. 00:40:26 i can update what's allowed in the config file by creating a new handler. my admin doesn't understand that new handler. yet i'm not allowed to write code to execute within the config file because that is easy 00:40:50 i don't particularly understand why this is better 00:41:09 replace :handler with a function name and you have the same configuration file, with added expressivity when needed 00:41:21 make that a macro 00:42:06 (the syntax looks nice btw) 00:42:49 madnificent: I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree until I get further along with things. I know what I hated about using Hunchentoot (which uses the just-use-code) approach and I'm trying to fix that in a way that allows me to easily do the things that I think of as the common case. 00:43:08 I surely understand what all you can do with Lisp. 00:43:10 BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has joined #lisp 00:43:19 yeah alright 00:43:38 But for the simple case I'd rather have something else when I know I can always fall back to Lisp if I really need to. 00:43:55 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-110-54.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:44:29 -!- ayrnieu [~julian@50.15.104.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:44:56 i don't doubt your insights on the lisp front, you know how i stand on the configuration file thing. i must add that i find it sad (as you would find the my preference), but it's your choice. 00:45:27 coderdad [~coderdad@ip68-97-195-24.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:47 I think that's actually the crux of it: if the default position is, "just use Lisp to configure things" then you tend to get a crappy user experience because it's too easy to say, well, they can do whatever they want, they've got all of Lisp. 00:45:59 anyways, it makes sense to have support for sessions in a separate library, right? 00:46:14 Forcing things through a purely declarative config file makes you think about what it actually means to configure a web server. 00:46:27 compromising seems easy enough. get a special 'escape' in the configuration to get executable code. and make sure that by default, it is not needed 00:46:27 gigamonkey: i don't like forcing things, if i would, i'd be in #haskell 00:46:30 If I hit the point where the only sane thing is to have loops and conditionals then it's time for Lisp. 00:47:00 I mean forcing for myself, as a way of thinking about the problem. 00:47:51 yes, sessions should be in a library, probably, in Whistle, using the-not-yet-implemented feature where you can have handlers that see the request but don't generate the response. 00:48:11 gigamonkey: it seems like really bad advice though. "if i force myself to cramp everything in an XML file then it will be so complex that i'll have to have thought about it long and hard. hence i'll understand the problem well." there's no alternative to just sitting down and thinking before you act. 00:48:39 madnificent: well, in practice the alternative seem so be saying, "just use Lisp" and not thinking about it at all. 00:48:49 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-136-8.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 00:48:51 gigamonkey: i know that's not exactly what you're saying and i do -to large extent- understand what you mean. it even works for me in many cases. 00:49:07 gigamonkey: how about throwing a style warning or something of the likes? 00:49:17 on what? 00:50:01 Designing a config file (in this case anyway) is essentially the same as designing a configuration API that is forced to be simple in certain dimensions. 00:50:05 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:50:19 say that code in the configuration file should be written within a macro. ie: (lisp (loop for...)) then the lisp macro could throw a style warning 00:50:23 If it turns out that very simple API can express everything I feel needs to be expressed, it's a win because it's simpler than the alternative. 00:50:48 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-96-241-99-101.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:50:52 In which case, it's a win to use that API from a simple, regular program. 00:50:59 I don't see how having the simple api would mean enforcing not using anything else 00:51:01 Since that saves you writing a half-arsed parser. 00:51:02 offering it is a win 00:51:07 If it turns out that things I feel need to be expressed (perhaps after having them pointed out) cannot be handled without complexifying things, then my theory of what would be possible was wrong. 00:51:14 forbidding to go around it is not 00:51:21 *madnificent* doesn't like the I in that sentence 00:51:46 Zhivago: this is Lisp, I don't need to write a parser, half-assed or otherwise. 00:51:53 ah well, end of discussion, it's going nowhere anyways 00:51:53 madificent: You dislike koollman or gigamonkey? 00:52:08 gigamonkey: Evaluator, then. :) 00:52:19 Zhivago: i like, i'd dare to say love if it wouldn't have such odd connotations, both of them 00:52:33 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:52:43 :) 00:52:47 Zhivago: but i would prefer to have a configuration in the form of lisp /code/ instead of s-expressions :) 00:53:02 Zhivago: which would mean that i like koollman's statements more than gigamonkey's on that topic 00:54:16 madnificent: still, I disagree on the 'code' form if it's the only provided form. it's harder to analyze live code than dead config. but I do agree that having something to evaluate code in the configuration file is nice 00:54:35 -!- ayushj [~ayushj@c-50-135-152-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChipzIRC 0.100.0.21] 00:55:26 koollman: in gigamonkey's example paste, replace :handler with handler and you essentially have code. the concept of a configuration file which has a best practice doesn't mean that it couldn't be code in itself. 00:56:27 koollman: in fact, i'd say that the configuration file *is* already code, only code which isn't allowed to contain many statements. the configuration isn't rigid due to the use of custom handlers which may accept custom arguments (which, from my stance on the topic, is a good thing) 00:56:41 madnificent: when I 'run' a config file, I know it will be either ending with a configured program, or an error. live code adds many less desirable options to this list :) 00:56:45 koollman: but it's just not any lisp code, it's just some lisp code. 00:56:51 (let say 'oh, that is an infinite loop') 00:57:15 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:57:26 koollman: if the configuration can't contain the loop, then the application will :) 00:57:42 yes. but the application is not my responsability as a sysadmin ;) 00:58:04 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.21.191] has joined #lisp 00:58:20 koollman: i've seen far more things go wrong getting a java webservice go wrong, than editing a lisp configuration file. but i'm indeed not the right person to judge on that. 00:58:21 I want the *possibility* to make it dynamic. as an optionnal tool in my belts. right between hammer and nuke. ;) 00:59:09 koollman: however, if you'd only use the url and handler things, you'd know it couldn't go wrong (unless someone wrote an endless loop in their handler, which is currently possible as well) 00:59:22 (hammer being generating a config file, and nuke being rewriting/hacking the program) 00:59:25 koollman: i wonder, what does the nuke represent? 00:59:30 ah :) 00:59:42 I did it before. it's not nice, really. 00:59:50 -!- Guest80278 [~Kron@98.143.102.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:00:22 making :url a macro doesn't make the config file more dangerous. it actually doesn't change a thing, aside from allowing one to #'load the file instead of #'read ing it 01:00:47 read isn't right here 01:01:47 if you're reading it, you can just use #. anyway 01:02:26 Kron [~Kron@69.166.21.191] has joined #lisp 01:02:37 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:40 Ralith: regardless of the implementation, i doubt that's the way it's supposed to be used so it'd be breaking the interface anyways 01:02:51 -!- Kron is now known as Guest49164 01:04:15 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.21.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:08:21 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:08:45 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:14 -!- Guest49164 [~Kron@69.166.21.191] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 01:09:29 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.21.191] has joined #lisp 01:10:20 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 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01:32:05 madnificent: I don't know of any way to do it automatically within CL. alexandria:copy-stream can do it. 01:33:05 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.212.106] has quit [Client Quit] 01:33:56 Modius [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:34:04 Xach: thanks 01:34:11 -!- Modius [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:34:40 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:34:40 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 01:34:40 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 01:35:33 Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.212.106] has joined #lisp 01:36:41 -!- bchi [~bji@cpe-098-024-086-252.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 01:44:07 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:46:59 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Quit: ddp] 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03:06:09 is it much nicer than regular cucumber? 03:06:16 erm 03:06:19 I hope it works well for you! 03:06:51 it's mostly just regular cucumber. 03:07:21 you just write step definitions in lisp (: 03:07:58 ah 03:08:16 well I'm learning cucumber first, but want to give it a try 03:09:06 excellent, let me know how it goes (-: 03:13:01 http://developers.slashdot.org/story/12/01/02/2358240/the-semantic-line-interface - this. what. I'm  baffied, confused and mildly scared. 03:14:14 they're proposing an RDF model for UI. kind of as if somebody had brainscanned me while I was having programming nightmares 03:14:41 (an RDF model for UI using CLIM as the base) 03:14:58 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:14:58 zfx [~zfx@host86-166-117-136.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:14:58 -!- zfx [~zfx@host86-166-117-136.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 03:14:58 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 03:15:13 madnificent: I think you'd greatly benefit from reading http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/leastPower . 03:15:31 -!- pnq [~nick@AC819B59.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:15:56 antifuchs: heh 03:15:58 pnq [~nick@AC8144CD.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 03:16:57 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:18:19 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.121.76] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:19:30 And btw, some earlier seemed to be saying that conditionals and loops are incompatible with static analyzability. That's just false. You can have some simple, "restricted" yet still very useful conditional and looping constructs without compromising static analyzability much. I did a pretty nice HTML templating language embedded in CL a few years ago and I had conditionals, loops, and even variables, and I could still very much m 03:19:32 madnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 03:19:37 gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-38-17.dyn.bashtel.ru] has joined #lisp 03:20:36 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:21:37 madnificent: "15:41:57 dlowe: qeurying and altering are two different things though" <-- What about rewriting, then? :) By increasing queryability, you can increase the ability to manipulate symbolically, which means you can nicely alter things programmatically... 03:22:03 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 03:23:08 -!- bieber [~quassel@162-78.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:23:20 chenbing` [~user@60.186.241.43] has joined #lisp 03:23:54 bieber [~quassel@162-78.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:23:57 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-38-17.dyn.bashtel.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:24:22 antifuchs: what kind of apps do you use cucumber with? 03:24:46 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-joztdvkhfytpelud] has joined #lisp 03:25:27 -!- chenbing [~user@60.186.241.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:26:39 felideon: most of my network stuff (beanstalk, cl-stripe, cxml-rpc) 03:26:51 so, stuff that has interfaces. 03:26:55 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 03:29:28 dys` [~andreas@krlh-5f71f0b4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:05 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f713ef8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:33:58 I'm writing a Rails app! 03:34:42 now that I think of it maybe I won't use clucumber so it's easier to find someone to maintain the app. :/ 03:34:50 if I'm not available. 03:35:15 that's not positive thinking 03:35:20 lol! 03:37:53 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:39:33 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128077088.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:41:06 if there are CL parts in the app, then by all means, use cluke (-: 03:41:39 but if it's a ruby app you're testing, you should be using its own interfaces (-: 03:43:18 -!- felideon [~user@weston-69.65.92.95.myacc.net] has left #lisp 03:43:25 felideon [~user@weston-69.65.92.95.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:57 yeah, for now it'll just be ruby/rails app, nothing fancy. maybe down the line. 03:44:19 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:47:01 zzach1 [~zzach@dslb-178-001-136-081.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:32 -!- zzach [~zzach@dslb-178-009-250-184.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:51:30 gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-45-100.dyn.bashtel.ru] has joined #lisp 03:51:46 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 03:53:48 coderdad [~coderdad@ip68-97-195-24.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:53 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.138.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:56:14 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A1D99.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:57:51 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:07:06 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 04:07:37 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 04:11:05 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-45-100.dyn.bashtel.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:11:49 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:12:49 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-96-241-99-101.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:18:21 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:22:18 _nix00 [~Adium@222.65.230.23] has joined #lisp 04:27:38 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 04:30:57 Pomo [~Pomo@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 04:31:05 -!- sav` [~user@177.19.56.232] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:42:43 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 04:47:54 antifuchs: so do you really like the TDD/BDD stuff a lot? 04:48:38 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:50:25 -!- centipedefarmer_ [~centipede@75-162-53-63.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:51:21 -!- albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has left #lisp 04:52:48 why is there parse-integer but no parse-float 04:52:49 >:/ 04:56:49 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-127-136.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:59:29 -!- edeloso [~user@c-66-30-9-243.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:03:50 -!- poincare101 [~Dhaivat_P@CPE-65-27-96-82.new.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:06:56 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-xydgyquwjuomhpkx] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:07:28 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@199.91.212.106] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 05:10:03 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-150-191.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:21 gravicappa [~gravicapp@h94-75-57-144.dyn.bashtel.ru] has joined #lisp 05:16:28 -!- yoklov [~yoklov@24-177-5-183.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: bye!] 05:20:20 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:20:29 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:22:22 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@h94-75-57-144.dyn.bashtel.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:23:34 dtw [dtw@dsl-roibrasgw1-fe84fb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 05:25:45 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:33:25 -!- mmmmd [~tasty@adsl-76-254-6-25.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:33:28 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@ip68-97-195-24.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:34:07 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:38:09 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw298122.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:44:27 spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-111-48.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 05:49:17 SLIME doesn't seem to work with MKCL 05:50:42 http://paste.lisp.org/display/126838 05:51:10 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-111-48.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 05:52:10 MKCL? 05:53:03 ManKai Common Lisp 05:53:15 A dignified, modern Kyoto Common Lisp from the ECL branch 05:53:40 why are you using that o.O 05:53:51 Just testing it out 05:54:16 It's relatively recent 05:54:21 I seem to recall some cotroversy regarding that fork 05:54:30 What was it about? 05:55:04 it doesn't seem to have a point 05:55:17 aside from some bullshit-sounding stuff about being "modern" 05:55:34 something about pointless ego stroking 05:56:58 hmm why not ecl which has some support 06:01:05 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-169-80-32.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:05:08 lazybone [~yukiy@220.167.39.237] has joined #lisp 06:13:24 -!- felideon [~user@weston-69.65.92.95.myacc.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:14:36 -!- lazybone [~yukiy@220.167.39.237] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:14:44 I can't get ecl to work with slime :( 06:14:55 So if there's an incantation I'm missing, I'd like to hear it :O 06:16:14 lazybone [~yukiy@220.167.39.237] has joined #lisp 06:18:39 -!- lazybone [~yukiy@220.167.39.237] has quit [Client Quit] 06:19:35 Modius [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:20:44 -!- Modius [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:21:33 phadthai: Yeah, probably 06:22:32 sshirokov: hmm I've not had problems here... I use latest ecl and almost the latest slime, though, both checked out from git or cvs 06:23:51 feel free to mail ecls-list@lists.sourceforge.net and/or slime-devel@common-lisp.net if needed 06:23:59 I grabbed the latest ecl and a cvs slime :( 06:24:07 ecl 11.1.1 06:24:26 It gets as far as declaring that swank started, then spins up to 100% CPU before crashing ( 06:24:47 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-122-89.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:24:47 -current ecl is in a lot of flux lately, so perhaps it might be good to update it again 06:24:53 I have no real reason to use it, so I haven't dug much deeper than that 06:25:02 I'll give that a shot 06:25:46 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:26:06 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.122.89] has joined #lisp 06:26:19 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:27:15 sshirokov: indeed, it doesn't work for me as well 06:29:08 ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.138.222] has joined #lisp 06:29:37 although i don't have the latest one 06:32:06 -!- kpal [~kpal@46-252-115-213.sibtele.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:33:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@81.211.255.34] has joined #lisp 06:33:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@81.211.255.34] has quit [Changing host] 06:33:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:33:57 -!- chenbing` [~user@60.186.241.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:36:30 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:36:34 and building the new one doesn't work, as usual with ECL 06:37:03 kpal [~kpal@46-252-115-213.sibtele.com] has joined #lisp 06:38:30 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw298122.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:39:13 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:55:23 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.122.89] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:55:31 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:59:52 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 07:00:56 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host160-215-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:00:56 -!- Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host160-215-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:01:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:04:19 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:05:34 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:07:32 kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-176-39.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:07:46 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:09:35 velov [~velov@91.207.42.52] has joined #lisp 07:13:09 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:14:12 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 07:14:47 Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 07:14:49 Posterdati [~tapioca@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 07:15:19 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:16:18 -!- kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-176-39.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:19:59 hello lispers 07:21:04 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:21:53 grimwood [~grimwood@cust4-dsl50.idnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:13 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.83.245] has joined #lisp 07:23:14 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 07:25:22 is there an algorithm that I can use to create a boundary for a multipart message ? is md5sum suitable for this ? 07:25:54 kiuma: are you going to ask this question again tomorrow? 07:25:56 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:26:15 no only today , I hope 07:26:22 kiuma: there is no algorithm. you choose a random boundary. 07:26:25 *easye* hops into a wormwhole. 07:26:32 ok :( 07:26:43 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 07:26:43 But using the md5sum of the contents is a good way to make it random and unique. 07:26:58 But involves a bit of "effort" if you don't alread have the hash computed. 07:27:11 easye: not at all. any other random number will do, and you need to read the contents for no good reason. 07:27:20 Multipart messages for what? 07:27:32 Again, if it's already computed, then "why not?" 07:27:44 Bike: MIME mail. 07:28:02 easye, of coure I was thinking to create a caching system 07:28:11 kiuma: ? 07:28:21 Bike, for the http server I'm writing 07:28:26 kimua: yeah, you can stash the checksum to be able to retrieve it easily. 07:28:28 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 07:29:03 "Use the web, Luke." 07:29:24 easye: what properties does the checksum have - in the contents of multi-part messages - that makes it worth going into the trouble of caching it? 07:29:26 kiuma: Most Astro architects would tell you to let HTTP do that. 07:29:26 H4ns, a cache system holding file, (path, date, size, modifydate, boundary) 07:29:39 static HTTP web caching is a well known (and solved) problem. 07:29:49 kiuma: why do you want to cache the boundary? 07:29:53 q.v. squid, and its descendents. 07:30:11 H4ns: It allows you to retrieve it from a local cache. 07:30:17 Or refresh it. 07:30:34 H4ns, because I want to be able to serve Content-Range requests 07:30:53 so a browser is able to resume a download 07:31:08 kiuma: and content-range requests must always use the same boundary? 07:31:17 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.83.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:31:56 for the same file 07:32:09 H4ns: I assume, not to cache the boundary, but to refer to a local copy. 07:32:34 since I don't want to loose the event based part 07:32:54 *easye* scratches his head. 07:32:55 so I don't want to calculate the boudary each time 07:33:02 for speed reasons 07:33:06 kiuma: Now, I think we are talking about different things. 07:33:24 easye, yes I suppose 07:33:48 You are transferring MIME (RFC 822, q.v.) byte addressed messages in HTTP? 07:34:07 The proper thing is to give each sub-part a URI. 07:34:16 kiuma: you'll certainly have to save your request context somewhere in an event oriented system, but that is not caching. and you'll see multiple events for each content-range request 07:34:19 And "Use the Web, Luke." 07:34:35 easye, rfc2616#10.2.7 07:34:39 Unfortunately the binary POST protocol uses multipart MIME 07:34:40 kiuma: but all that is completely unrelated to how the boundary is constructed. the boundary can be anything. 07:34:56 as stupid as it sounds 07:35:01 but, it's HTTP :) 07:35:16 *easye* rubs his hand, "I haven't read RFC2616 closely yet!" 07:35:23 oops hands 07:36:17 That request already has an ETag. 07:36:26 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:36:44 kiuma: i think you are not separating your application layer (http) and your i/o layer properly if you try to discuss message boundaries in the context of events. 07:36:48 Which will be unique, and mathematically closely correlated with the md5 checksum 07:37:02 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:37:20 good morning 07:37:25 err ETag 07:37:31 jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has joined #lisp 07:37:43 the othere option,as I told yesterday, would be to only serve single Content-Range replies 07:38:35 so for requests with only a single range request 07:39:07 So, if you did something like hash the concatenation of the current time with some digits of the ETag, that would be (mostly) a unique message boundary. Adding the local IP4/IP6 address would officially be overkill... 07:39:44 What's the value of Content-Location? 07:39:49 or you can use a random number 07:39:57 but go ahead! 07:40:23 H4ns: a simpler choice, unless you wish to conserve your local entropy for some non-functional reason. 07:40:33 easye, Why do you suppose boudary must be unique, for whay I know it only must me a not repeateable sequence in the message body 07:40:40 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:41:00 ddp [~ddp@anon-168-29.relakks.com] has joined #lisp 07:41:37 kiuma: I think RFC822 (or its successors) suggests that such a boundary be only unique. 07:41:51 It *can't* appear in the message. 07:41:56 but, today I can try to make kuma be able to serve a single range request 07:42:02 easye, that's it 07:42:24 (it has specific CR/LF boundaries that any random subsequence of the message boundary is guaranteed not to have) 07:42:38 (it has specific CR/LF boundaries that any random subsequence of the message body is guaranteed not to have) 07:42:42 I meant not repeateable inside the 'real' message body 07:43:08 unique if you want :) 07:43:20 Claim: I can construct a regular expression that will never be matched by anything other than the "real" header positions. 07:43:47 while leaving the boundary as a free variable. 07:43:54 easye, for binary files ? 07:44:14 for MIME RFC 822 delimited files, yes. 07:45:50 -!- grimwood [~grimwood@cust4-dsl50.idnet.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 07:46:20 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 07:48:07 anyway, for the braves: git@github.com:kiuma/kuma.git + git@github.com:kiuma/thread-pool.git and iolib live sources http://common-lisp.net/project/iolib/download.shtml 07:49:02 Anyone have a more specific name for "Pascal Costanza's mop feature tests"? Is that part of CLOSER-MOP? 07:49:13 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:53:14 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 07:54:53 *easye* hunts for a closer-mop source URL> 07:55:03 Darcs is latest? 08:03:16 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.138.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:06:02 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 08:11:33 08:12:22 Siphonblast [~anon@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:20 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:15:05 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has joined #lisp 08:15:53 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:21:29 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.193.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:22:33 kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 08:22:36 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-uljanpkleknixbnd] has joined #lisp 08:26:30 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@141.76.92.5] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 08:26:44 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 08:26:53 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 08:27:46 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 08:28:12 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:29:54 -!- p_l|backup [~plasek@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:31:56 -!- literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:31:56 -!- velov [~velov@91.207.42.52] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:32:05 woodz [~wooodz@host109-150-39-20.range109-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:32:11 velov [~velov@91.207.42.52] has joined #lisp 08:34:35 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@c-92b3e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:36:05 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:38:32 -!- homie [~homie@xdsl-84-44-208-59.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:40:44 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 08:40:52 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 08:42:38 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-159-153.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: asleep.] 08:43:43 nostoi [~nostoi@217.Red-79-151-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:53 mmmmd [~tasty@adsl-76-254-6-25.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:41 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:46:27 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:50:04 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@79.Red-88-7-134.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:04 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8144CD.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:59:02 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:59:11 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has joined #lisp 09:00:36 Posterdati [~tapioca@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:00:38 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:02:40 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@217.Red-79-151-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:02:40 -!- velov [~velov@91.207.42.52] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:02:52 velov [~velov@91.207.42.52] has joined #lisp 09:04:39 CrazyWoods [~crazywood@220.160.190.46] has joined #lisp 09:04:57 -!- kilon is now known as kilon_away 09:08:22 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-155.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:10:05 -!- CrazyWoods [~crazywood@220.160.190.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:11:40 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 09:11:49 CrazyWoods [~crazywood@220.160.190.46] has joined #lisp 09:12:07 pjb, are you here? 09:20:06 X99 [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 09:22:36 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 09:24:05 SHODAN [~shozan@c-92b3e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:25:07 -!- woodz [~wooodz@host109-150-39-20.range109-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 09:25:49 woohoohoo! pjb is there! 09:30:45 pjb, does lisp need design pattern? 09:31:41 gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:55 grimwood [~grimwood@cust4-dsl50.idnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:00 CrazyWoods: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/82c409386298530e/ee09f8475bc7b2a0?hl=en&q=design+pattern+macro+group:comp.lang.lisp+author:pascal+author:bourguignon#ee09f8475bc7b2a0 09:35:38 -!- prip [~foo@host247-127-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:38:45 gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-8-9.dyn.bashtel.ru] has joined #lisp 09:41:07 CaZe_ [~CaZe@unaffiliated/y354c] has joined #lisp 09:41:57 -!- CaZe [~CaZe@unaffiliated/y354c] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:42:00 -!- CaZe_ is now known as CaZe 09:44:02 -!- grimwood [~grimwood@cust4-dsl50.idnet.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 09:45:30 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 09:47:35 Blkt [~user@82.84.136.73] has joined #lisp 09:47:42 prip [~foo@host85-129-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:50:24 steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:54:27 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:59:39 peterhil [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 10:00:31 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 10:08:02 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:09:42 Hi, I'm reading Quasi Quotation from Alan Bawden, and I don't understand why ``(,@,12) => 12. 10:10:07 I expected an error when splicing ,12 10:12:32 daimrod: my best guess: ``(,@,12) => `(,@'12) => '12 => 12 10:12:34 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-sukcomhikzwglhcb] has joined #lisp 10:13:13 Consider `'`(,@,12) and ``'(,@,12) 10:14:40 I think ``(,@,12) => `,12 => 12 10:16:16 Zhivago: aaah thanks ! 10:20:33 pjb, what's the relationship between lambda calculus and Turing machine? 10:20:48 pjb, why do you said the kernel of lisp is lambda? 10:23:10 -!- kanru` [~user@218-167-101-106.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:24:08 add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-19-41.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:24:09 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 10:24:18 crazy: It's catchy gibberish. 10:24:24 andreer [~user@nat/yahoo/x-mneccjhgoytdqupu] has joined #lisp 10:26:11 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.129.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 10:27:02 You could say that the kernel of lisp is eval. 10:27:20 Or possibly that the kibble of lisp is cons. 10:28:05 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2E75.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:29:29 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:33:56 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:36:35 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:36:42 I'm shocked, VPRI chose Lisp as one of the two of its foundational techs. 10:37:35 (From a 2011 TR, as seen on LtU..) 10:39:27 http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2011004_steps11.pdf 10:39:56 ..scroll to "Maru" 10:41:05 mvilleneuve, good day! 10:43:07 lispmeister [~fix@AStDenis-551-1-40-43.w90-43.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:43:19 homie [~homie@xdsl-78-35-153-253.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:44:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.59.171] has joined #lisp 10:44:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.59.171] has quit [Changing host] 10:44:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:45:08 okflo [~okflo@91-115-196-157.mobile.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 10:46:51 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-8-9.dyn.bashtel.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:47:17 rudi_ [~rudi@1x-193-157-205-216.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:47:48 -!- rudi_ is now known as rudi 10:47:52 -!- gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:51:24 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082AE7C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:36 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082AE60.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:00:07 -!- ironChicken [~richard@195.3.137.108] has left #lisp 11:00:31 am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.101] has joined #lisp 11:01:26 -!- okflo [~okflo@91-115-196-157.mobile.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:02:26 okflo [~okflo@91-115-204-191.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:02:28 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:03:25 -!- zmv [~zmv@186.204.156.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:05:58 osa1 [~sinan@88.244.138.72] has joined #lisp 11:07:20 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 11:08:11 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:11:20 -!- teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:14:15 rswarbrick [~rswarbric@cl-1290.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:33 gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-22-248.dyn.bashtel.ru] has joined #lisp 11:15:29 chenbing [~user@60.186.241.43] has joined #lisp 11:15:34 Hi, MOP question: I'm looking at some code that overrides the (internal) SB-PCL symbol compute-effective-slot-definition-initargs to add some extra initargs before effective-slot-definition-class and make-instance (on the slot class) get called. Is there an obvious replacement only using exported symbols? 11:21:38 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-joztdvkhfytpelud] has left #lisp 11:21:50 rswarbrick: hard to judge without more context, but it sounds somewhat like an initialize-instance method for the slot definition class would do? 11:22:33 JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 11:23:19 Hmm, but that doesn't get the list of direct slots that you made it from :-( 11:23:59 no, I think there isn't an alternative 11:24:01 At the moment, I think I'm going to have to use an around method on compute-effective-slot-definition and work out what the extra initargs I was giving it did, and stick them in afterwards. Yuck. 11:24:37 I think if someone were to take the time to document why this is needed and why there's no alternative, there's scope for (a) a nice document and (b) having some nice exported symbols in the future 11:25:24 Well, I think in this case it probably wasn't *needed*. If the original author had just used an around method of c-e-s-d, I'm sure it would have been fine. 11:25:45 Of course now I have the joy of working out what the heck is going on. Oh, and did I mention? No docs. 11:27:33 -!- okflo [~okflo@91-115-204-191.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:28:48 nha_ [~prefect@p3E9E2D4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:03 hello everyone 11:30:05 hi fe[nl]ix 11:30:21 http://imgur.com/a/yas83 11:30:22 [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 11:30:33 Much simpler question: In a loop form, what does (for x in lst as blah = blaah do ...) mean? (I don't recognise the "as" bit) 11:30:44 ave Blkt :) 11:31:32 Quadrescence: I liked the second :-) 11:31:55 It's the same as for. 11:32:11 Ah. Exactly synonymous? 11:32:19 AFAIK, yes. 11:32:37 Brill thanks, I was probably looking in the wrong subnode in clhs. 11:37:10 p_l|home [~pl@91.222.124.6] has joined #lisp 11:37:44 "The for and as keywords are synonyms; they can be used interchangeably." http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_aba.htm 11:39:17 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:39:58 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 11:40:01 Excellent, that's what I missed. Thank you! 11:42:24 Hmm, (remove-duplicates '((1 2 3) (1 3 4) (1 4 5)) :key #'first) => ((1 4 5)). Isn't this a bug? 11:42:50 Why would it? 11:43:13 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181130220.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:43:42 luis: you got only one list where (first) eql 1, so that's fine. 11:43:44 Well, remove-duplicates is supposed to maintain the order of the objects is it not? 11:43:44 In ((1 4 5)), isn't (1 4 5) the only list whose first is 1? 11:43:53 luis: It goes backwards 11:44:05 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-22-248.dyn.bashtel.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:44:07 (unless you give it :from-end ) 11:44:08 It is not specified which element is kept. 11:44:19 pjb: good point. 11:44:27 And it doesn't matter, since they're supposed to be equal. 11:44:46 In its documentation: "The elements of sequence are compared pairwise, and if any two match, then the one occurring 11:44:46 earlier in sequence is discarded, unless from-end is true, in which case the one later in 11:44:46 sequence is discarded." 11:44:49 Or should I say equivalent. 11:45:11 Ok, so it's specified which element is kept. 11:45:13 So it is specified, and you can choose. 11:45:18 :-) (but not the middle one!) 11:45:24 But in any case, it should not matter to you since they're supposed to be equivalent. 11:45:45 Ah, no. I've used it for "tidying up" assocs or doing merge sorts of things. 11:45:53 rswarbrick: thanks. 11:46:16 This sort of thing: (remove-duplicates (append assoc1 assoc2) :key 'car) 11:46:25 Then I might care which assoc takes precedence. 11:47:06 Indeed. 11:48:28 iolib's documentation is too thin for me, I want to listen and write to a socket, but they shouldn't block each other, how can I do that in iolib without using threads? 11:50:15 osa1: read the tutorial. read the sources. 11:50:24 pjb: the tutorial? 11:50:28 google for it. 11:50:34 like: iolib tutorial 11:51:30 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:54:10 CrazyWoods: You didn't read the AIM 8 memo, otherwise you'd know the answer to your question: <11:18:04> pjb, what's the relationship between lambda calculus and Turing machine? 11:55:29 <11:18:19> pjb, why do you said the kernel of lisp is lambda? --> Since there's equivalence between Lambda Calculus and Turing Machines, you can use lambda calculus to implement any program, so you can use it to implement a lisp. Therefore you only need lambda. 11:55:54 pjb, i see 11:56:46 Well, if you don't want to evaluate anything ... 11:58:52 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-19-41.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 12:00:54 pjb, Turing Machines and lambda calculus are all calculus odel 12:06:04 Has anyone any ideas about this strange SBCL behaviour? http://paste.lisp.org/display/126839 (I don't *think* I'm missing anything obvious...) 12:07:30 (ps: Wow, I didn't realise that paste.lisp.org made links out of functions it recognised. That's really cool!) 12:08:03 Why do you think we keep repeating to use lisppaste and not other random pastebin. 12:08:24 :-) Because people like blanks screens on submit, of course! 12:08:29 *blank 12:10:46 what does with-unlocked-package do ? 12:11:02 In theory, see http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Package-Locks 12:11:20 does it get into the namespace of the package as with surround your code with (in-package :blah) form ? 12:11:54 No, it actually unlocks the package temporarily I think. 12:12:31 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 12:13:33 from the outside ? 12:13:37 uhh 12:13:47 See target-package.lisp in the SBCL source. 12:14:34 Line 201 of http://sbcl.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=sbcl/sbcl.git;a=blob;f=src/code/target-package.lisp;hb=HEAD 12:15:24 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 12:19:53 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:20:09 but that's for the cold init phase man 12:20:27 Hmm. It's where M-. took me... 12:21:37 no wait it's propagated to the warm-init and final core too i see now 12:21:38 It's also the only occurrence of with-unlocked-packages in the whole of the SBCL source... 12:21:40 zfx [~zfx@host109-156-17-241.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:21:40 -!- zfx [~zfx@host109-156-17-241.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 12:21:40 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 12:21:46 -!- heidymadia [~saasten@61.247.42.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:21:50 (as in the string) 12:21:52 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has left #lisp 12:21:54 cause i can (describe 'with-unlocked-package) 12:22:04 s 12:24:25 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 12:24:45 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest33325 12:26:38 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.26.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:28:05 heh 12:28:20 it seems sb-kernel:type-expand is interned in the repl 12:28:53 No. symbols are interned into packages, not in the repl. 12:29:31 snearch [~snearch@e178121051.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:29:36 Which is why I was qualifying everything. I think it's probably due to something weird with the dynamic extent of the package (un)locking. But I'm not sure. 12:31:14 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-sukcomhikzwglhcb] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:31:47 Hmm. Well, I've found a workaround by shadowing the symbol that I was clobbering. Most confusing though. 12:31:54 well, yes keyword proclaim suggests dynamic 12:32:43 I've tried to send a question to sbcl-help, but it seems that sourceforge email is in its usual helpful state so it may or may not arrive one day. 12:35:54 gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:49 pnq [~nick@ACA20495.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:37:58 I suspect you're getting the message, perhaps spuriously, from the compilation of the lambda inside the form, which happens before the evaluation of the with-unlocked-packages 12:38:48 (describe 'typexpand) 12:38:55 early-type.lisp 12:39:03 homie: please shut up now, there's a good chap 12:39:03 -!- gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:39:25 Kryztof: Thanks (for both answers). 12:39:41 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.26.116] has joined #lisp 12:39:45 oh ok 12:40:01 rswarbrick: the compiler notices that sb-kernel:type-expand "will be defined later, honest" and so does a proclaim that it's a function, to quieten the compiler in case it later sees any calls to type-expand 12:40:15 I think it's not allowed to do it in general, though it is convenient 12:40:23 Ah, I see. That makes sense. 12:40:38 that is, you're probably seeing a bug, but I don't know off the top of my head how to fix it without botching the surgery 12:40:39 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ldbsdchksbqpkpid] has joined #lisp 12:40:44 and anyway I should be writing exams 12:40:55 (well actually I should be enjoying my holiday but sadly things never quite work like that) 12:40:56 :-) I should probably be doing maths 12:41:31 *sigh* if only I could go back to be doing maths 12:41:44 gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:01 what happened to beach ? 12:42:57 Perhaps he's retained in a communist prison in Vietnam? 12:43:29 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:45:20 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.26.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:48:20 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.26.116] has joined #lisp 12:50:00 asvil` [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 12:51:38 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:55:50 Modius [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:55:59 -!- Modius [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:56:24 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 12:58:37 -!- kilon_away is now known as kilon 13:00:00 pjb, fe[nl]ix: hi 13:00:29 hi Posterdati 13:04:53 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.158.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:05:32 fe[nl]ix: i have wondered about it also, perhaps we should start a bring beach back action 13:06:19 fe[nl]ix: it would involve a gun-crazed holiday trip to Vietnam \o/ (or Bordeaux, depending on where he is) 13:06:39 madnificent: hopefully we need only one man: Rambo. 13:08:01 pjb: I prefer Ramba 13:09:42 gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-97-46.dyn.bashtel.ru] has joined #lisp 13:10:06 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-56.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 13:15:44 pjb: he might be a bit older now, but hell. just send him and enjoy the show 13:18:56 kilon` [~user@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 13:19:01 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.155.105] has joined #lisp 13:19:40  If we are sending fictious characters, I vote for wizards from Magicka. The game even has a vietnam POW rescue mission ;) 13:20:01 -!- kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:21:12 fe[nl]ix: beach was at ECLM 13:21:21 Though so were you, so you knew that... 13:21:29 He hasn't been very active on IRC before or since 13:21:48 -!- kilon` is now known as kilon 13:23:39 is there a command to i?search the slime repl history? 13:23:49 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:51 H4ns: this is emacsc. 13:24:02 C-s works there. 13:24:34 pjb: i do not want to search the slime repl buffer, but the history 13:30:38 MoALTz [~no@46.205.24.50.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 13:31:07 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-56.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:31:28 -!- Guest33325 [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:33:14 H4ns: Do you want M-r ? 13:34:32 rswarbrick: yeah, thanks! 13:34:41 :-) 13:34:45 incremental would be even nicer, but M-r will do 13:35:09 Once you've got anything in the prompt, hitting C-p searches for the previous match 13:35:19 (for the contents of the prompt as a regex I think) 13:35:45 Guest33325 [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:08 rswarbrick: thanks again! 13:36:09 -!- kpal [~kpal@46-252-115-213.sibtele.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:36:41 ehh, time to sit down and write that inquiry to Franz. Hopefully we will get some time-limited ACL licenses :) 13:36:41 -!- CrazyEddy [~housebrea@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:37:09 MoALTz_ [~no@46.205.24.50.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 13:37:15 H4ns: No problem. It took me ages to get used to C-p working like that, but now I quite like it. 13:38:47 leth` [~user@c-6e3a71d5.245-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:39:49 -!- leth [~user@fsf/member/leth] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:39:51 lemoinem [~swoog@220-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:10 CrazyEddy [~befriz@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 13:41:19 -!- snearch [~snearch@e178121051.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 13:41:32 -!- MoALTz [~no@46.205.24.50.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:44:58 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:47:22 -!- CaZe [~CaZe@unaffiliated/y354c] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:48:09 -!- rswarbrick [~rswarbric@cl-1290.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:51:44 CaZe [~CaZe@unaffiliated/y354c] has joined #lisp 13:54:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:54:48 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.35.150] has joined #lisp 13:54:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.35.150] has quit [Changing host] 13:54:48 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:55:26 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 13:55:29 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.26.116] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:55:38 -!- mmmmd [~tasty@adsl-76-254-6-25.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:57:32 christoph_debian [~user@oteiza.siccegge.de] has joined #lisp 13:57:36 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:57:57 -!- gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:58:13 -!- p_l|home [~pl@91.222.124.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:58:48 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@ceesit01.nees.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 13:58:48 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@ceesit01.nees.rpi.edu] has quit [Changing host] 13:58:48 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 13:59:05 p_l|home [~pl@91.222.124.6] has joined #lisp 13:59:16 hi! how do I make a lisp array out of a sb-alien array without iterating over the indices? or is that iteration the way to go? 13:59:44 -!- andreer [~user@nat/yahoo/x-mneccjhgoytdqupu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:59:56 Most probably. The representations of data in lisp and C are different. 14:00:09 ok 14:00:19 But you can keep the alien array and refer it directlyh. 14:00:42 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has joined #lisp 14:01:22 gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:01:44 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:02:30 grimwood [~grimwood@cust4-dsl50.idnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:26 JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 14:10:47 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@46.205.24.50.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:14:07 teggi [~teggi@113.172.55.251] has joined #lisp 14:15:10 MoALTz [~no@188.146.84.244.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 14:17:15 -!- CaZe [~CaZe@unaffiliated/y354c] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:17:51 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...] 14:17:55 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has joined #lisp 14:18:29 -!- MoALTz [~no@188.146.84.244.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:18:50 MoALTz [~no@188.146.84.244.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 14:18:53 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:19:31 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:21:25 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 14:22:31 -!- MoALTz [~no@188.146.84.244.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:22:51 MoALTz [~no@188.146.84.244.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 14:24:02 -!- grimwood [~grimwood@cust4-dsl50.idnet.net] has quit [Quit: grimwood] 14:24:18 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 14:28:35 -!- MoALTz [~no@188.146.84.244.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:28:50 MoALTz [~no@188.146.84.244.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 14:34:47 -!- Carmivore [~carmivmor@ec2-184-72-134-164.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34:53 bsamograd [~user@184.71.240.90] has joined #lisp 14:35:36 -!- MoALTz [~no@188.146.84.244.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:38:25 Carmivore [~carmivmor@ec2-184-73-17-110.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:38 Blkt` [~bar@82.84.136.73] has joined #lisp 14:38:59 test 14:41:08 -!- Blkt` [~bar@82.84.136.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:09 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA20495.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:42:17 kpal [~kpal@46-252-115-213.sibtele.com] has joined #lisp 14:45:47 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:49:14 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-155.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:50:01 centipedefarmer_ [~centipede@75-162-53-63.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:02 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.155.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:50:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:52:58 coderdad [~coderdad@68.15.125.214] has joined #lisp 14:53:46 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:51 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.101] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:38 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 14:57:27 hydo [~hydo@c-71-227-138-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:52 -!- kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:59:37 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-56.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 15:00:07 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 15:02:31 Hi. I need opinions of lisp community. I fork maxima to make it more embeddable. You can see quicklisp branch in my repository. But I did some changes, that can not be merged with master branch. Because I change maxima from standalone to library style. What do you think about that maxima becomes available from quicklisp repositories? 15:03:32 I think it is a good idea. 15:03:38 Why can't the changes be merged? 15:05:15 BlackPla` [~gosuckade@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 15:06:29 -!- X99 [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:07:43 cpc261 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 15:07:44 perhaps it could be a separate branch of maxima in the future? if maxima's normal development can be merged into the library-version it would also be rather fancy. definitely wouldn't hurt maxima's usage 15:08:01 asvil`: have you contacted the original authors about this? 15:08:04 Main question is how combine standalone and library styles of application. 15:08:17 Yes I start mail thread about one week ago. 15:08:24 started* 15:08:30 asvil`: that is a good question 15:09:09 -!- BlackPla` [~gosuckade@shop3.diku.dk] has left #lisp 15:09:14 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:09:44 *madnificent* doesn't underdstand the question, translation? 15:10:11 if maxima's code can be extracted into a library, can't the application be wrapped around the library? 15:10:30 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@79.Red-88-7-134.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 15:10:44 madnificent: Now it is separate branch, which can be merged with master in mathematical parts. 15:10:50 eMBee: crufty code is crufty. 15:10:52 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@79.Red-88-7-134.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:27 asvil`: sounds sane to me. doesn't require too much maintenance 15:12:07 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: I'll be back B)] 15:13:13 Ah, sorry I did not write url. https://github.com/filonenko-mikhail/maxima/commits/quicklisp 15:13:43 rswarbrick [~rswarbric@cl-1290.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:47 well, it aparently is not so crufty as to not allow it to be extracted into a library. now all the calls to functions that were extracted would just need to be replaced with calls to the library? 15:14:06 pkhuong ^^ 15:14:13 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14:28 eMBee: are you familiar with maxima? 15:14:53 not at all, i am just guessing 15:15:22 eMBee: my impression is that it is a community of maxima users who make changes at a glacial pace and who do not care much about the common lisp underpinnings 15:15:41 ok, that is a different kind of problem 15:15:54 I also remove some dependencies, that available from quicklisp, from repository, may be it was an mistake, but repository became more lightweight. 15:16:19 eMBee: i think it's one of the respons people still use gcl, for example 15:16:38 Xach I agree with you. 15:16:45 asvil`: I probably wouldn't like that, if I were a maxima dev. Lisp is just a tool here, and fighting version mismatches and what not would be counterproductive. 15:17:32 actually, yes, i did a search on the popularity of lisp implementations in debian (using their contest stats) and gcl came up high because of a dependency on maxima 15:17:42 felideon [~user@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:55 xach: ^^ 15:18:01 cpc262 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 15:18:27 CaZe [~CaZe@unaffiliated/y354c] has joined #lisp 15:19:02 asvil`: have you asked the sage people about this? I'd expect them to have an opinion about this. It may help you get some pressure to get the changes in the mainline. 15:19:19 Xach: Maxima uses GCL because for a long time that was the only CL implementation that would run their code on Windows. Since few of the core devs use Windows, they didn't want to spend ages fighting with it. 15:19:20 -!- cpc261 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:19:33 It does mean they don't use CLOS as much as they could. 15:19:56 Now CCL has come along, I think change is afoot (albeit very slow change) 15:20:02 rswarbrick: s/could/should/ ? 15:20:09 Both, maybe. 15:20:23 Don't forget the code base is from the 80's though. And it's big and hairy. 15:20:30 Lots of scary dynamic variables and magic. 15:20:32 -!- osa1 [~sinan@88.244.138.72] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20:35 rswarbrick: the code is also gcl-optimised, and, for a long time, switching to anything, even (CMU|SB)CL, meant suffering a significant slowdown. 15:20:42 pkhuong: maxima contains some code to interact with other world, like files, network, etc. It is not so easy to maintain that part of project, if it is embedded. I mean for example maxima to gnuplot interaction. 15:21:00 pkhuong: I'm not sure if that's still true. Have you any examples? 15:21:22 -!- kpal [~kpal@46-252-115-213.sibtele.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:21:59 rswarbrick: I don't think that's true anymore either. However, I don't know if the changes happened in SBCL or Maxima. I'd bet on the former. 15:22:11 kpal [~kpal@46-252-115-213.sibtele.com] has joined #lisp 15:22:11 Probably. 15:22:49 asvil`: including more than is necessary is not strictly a problem for quicklisp. 15:23:15 Frankly, they are having lots of trouble at the moment deciding what functions like integrate() should do. The problem is that integration on the real line is significantly different from that over the complex plane. And there's not a particularly nice interface for deciding which meaning you're after. 15:23:24 asvil`: I don't follow. It was just a suggestion to gain additional political torque. I'd use a library-ised version of Maxima even if it had extra stuff in it. 15:23:30 There are other similar problems such as limits too. 15:24:11 Sage has the advantage of being more strongly typed, I think. But that was never part of Maxima's UI design. (I'm speaking with some ignorance here, mind you) 15:24:35 rswarbrick: Sage *embeds* maxima. 15:25:02 Xach: yes I know. 15:25:14 pkhuong: there recently was an effort to get maxima running faster on different platforms. i think both the maxima and the abcl devs were involved at some post. i seem to recall a post on plo 15:25:22 pkhuong: Yes, but it can make decisions about what to ask Maxima when given a question, I think. 15:25:48 For example, if it knows that we're working with complex numbers, it can arrange things so Maxima deals with that correctly. I'm not sure if it *does* though. 15:26:04 Frankly, the packaging for sage is so painful that I haven't had the motivation to play with it properly. 15:26:16 rswarbrick: oh probably. They might still have useful opinions on the topic of making maxima more easily usable as a library. 15:26:20 I don't particularly fancy recompiling static versions of half the libraries on my system... 15:26:28 Ah, that's true. 15:26:54 rswarbrick: the math people I talk to fancy playing sysadmin even less. 15:27:19 urandom__ [~user@p548A1CE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:46 ... which is presumably why Sage's distribution method is so godawful. 15:28:09 There was a debian package for a while, but I hear the guy working on it gave up. 15:28:40 -!- nha_ is now known as nha 15:30:40 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@68.15.125.214] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:31:50 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-205-216.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 15:32:36 coderdad [~coderdad@68.15.125.214] has joined #lisp 15:33:52 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:34:13 iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:06 eMBee: It is possible to make application wrapper around maxima library, but it require some changes in repository. 15:35:51 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@68.15.125.214] has quit [Client Quit] 15:36:32 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ldbsdchksbqpkpid] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:37:10 coderdad [~coderdad@68.15.125.214] has joined #lisp 15:37:20 eMBee: In case you're interested in trying to make mma more embeddable, the most recent person to announce they are doing it is here: http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.mathematics.maxima.general/36608 Frankly, I don't think he has a clue what he's doing, but you might find it interesting. 15:38:21 rswarbrick: that is our friend here, asvil` 15:38:29 :))) 15:38:38 Drat, sorry :-) 15:38:50 But still, I think you're going about it the wrong way. Sorry! 15:39:03 I gave up the idea to make a multi-user web interface 15:39:33 asvil`: Well, as with any lisp system, Maxima exposes a repl. It's probably pretty much impossible to make a multi-user thing from it. 15:39:53 Not to mention the problem of shared state for the actual mathematical computations. 15:40:47 rswarbrick: shouldn't me more complex than "shadow all special variables", should it? 15:41:19 madnificent: Huh? I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean. 15:41:50 rswarbrick: if maxima exposes a repl towards its users and you want to reuse the repl. all state which is specific for a single user should be placed in special variables, no? 15:42:04 I think, that I can isolate maxima thread by let form, but there are so many dynamic variables. 15:42:10 madnificent: Ah, I see. So you're suggesting a package per user? 15:42:31 asvil`: Yeah. I think that multiple processes is much more sensible. 15:42:48 (and less fragile) 15:42:52 rswarbrick: no, i simply hadn't thought about the fact that maxima might create new symbols in packages. i knew there was something, i was fishing for what. 15:43:27 rswarbrick: if packages can be decoupled from symbols though, then it may still be possible 15:43:38 don't mind me, i'm shutting up right now 15:43:57 madnificent: The things one would have to worry about are: (1) State to do with assumptions "X is positive", that sort of thing. (2) Past computations (the equivalent of *, **) (3) Any user defined variable. "x: 4" is basically the same as (defparameter $x 4). 15:44:25 Morning 15:44:42 And probably other stuff. Such as the billions of flags controlling behaviour of various functions. 15:44:55 It really is quite complicated. 15:45:08 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:45:18 rswarbrick: it took me too long to realize that they built maxima inside lisp, not on top of it. 15:45:46 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 15:45:48 Well, that's what made lisp a good function for writing maxima in. Otherwise, they could just as well have used C or whatever. 15:45:57 s/function/language. 15:46:28 rswarbrick: i wasn't trying to sound demeaning 15:46:44 No, sorry, but I meant that this was probably actually a good idea! 15:46:45 -!- kpal [~kpal@46-252-115-213.sibtele.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:46:55 jt876 [~jt@cpc4-lutn3-0-0-cust768.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:47:19 Does anyone know about the program Mathematica? 15:47:25 rswarbrick: :D 15:47:35 Qworkescence: Not written in lisp :-) 15:47:40 Also, not free. 15:47:44 rswarbrick, How did you know it's not in Lisp? 15:47:59 Qworkescence: didn't you see fateman's anecdote about it? 15:48:21 Xach, yes, well, I br---wait, how do you know about Fateman 15:48:28 anyway I'll get to the point 15:48:47 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-97-46.dyn.bashtel.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:48:48 Oops, Pitman 15:48:54 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/f3b93140c2f2e922?pli=1 is the one I had in mind. 15:49:05 I was talking to Gosper and I said "bla bla Why Wolfram chose C, I don't know. Weirdo." 15:49:06 kpal [~kpal@46-252-115-213.sibtele.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:21 And Gosper replied: "Lisp is unsuitable for heavy duty symbolic manipulation." 15:49:21 » He told me that Lisp was "inherently" (I'm pretty sure even after all this time that this was his exact word) 100 times slower than C and therefore an unsuitable vehicle. 15:49:21 --Wolfram addressing the SLAC auditorium, >10 years ago. 15:49:30 It made me chuckle. 15:49:35 benny [~benny@i577A216F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:49:53 Xach, yeah 15:50:07 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0/20111228055358]] 15:50:15 and we wonder why lisp didn't get more traction. if that was the idea influential people had at the time. 15:50:45 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-uljanpkleknixbnd] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:51:27 perfect time to indoctrinate you guys with my facts[opinions] http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=69 15:51:47 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:53:00 hey people 15:53:42 anybody able to help me with a polynomial calculator 15:54:17 jt876, what in particular 15:54:45 BlackPlague [~gosuckade@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 15:54:50 -!- jt876 [~jt@cpc4-lutn3-0-0-cust768.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54:59 Qworkescence: are you writing posts on demand? 15:55:10 -!- BlackPlague [~gosuckade@shop3.diku.dk] has left #lisp 15:55:38 H4ns, yes 15:56:18 Qworkescence: i was meaning to say "symbo1ics.com does not work for me", sorry 15:57:02 WFM FYI 15:58:23 erm, well, the home page works, but the link that Qworkescence posted times out. 15:58:24 anyway 15:58:29 (for me) 15:58:32 rswarbrick: thanks for that link, it is interesting for a different reason, as they also talking about multi-user lisp access, which is a topic i am interested in 15:59:20 jt311 [~jt@cpc4-lutn3-0-0-cust768.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:22 LaRGoO [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:26 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 15:59:50 -!- Guest33325 is now known as X-Scale 16:00:01 hi again 16:00:09 sorry got logged out 16:00:49 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:01:24 [08:53.08] jt876, what in particular 16:02:52 ryepup [~user@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 16:03:05 -!- LaRGoO [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:03:24 LaRGoO [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:16 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:04:18 -!- LaRGoO [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:04:33 LaRGoO [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:00 -!- leth` is now known as leth 16:06:09 -!- leth [~user@c-6e3a71d5.245-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Changing host] 16:06:09 leth [~user@fsf/member/leth] has joined #lisp 16:07:36 -!- LaRGoO [~Mothainut@host-212-75-20-44.bbccable.net] has quit [K-Lined] 16:10:05 #sagemath irc channel is silent. 16:10:05 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:10:15 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:48 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:13:23 -!- homie [~homie@xdsl-78-35-153-253.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:16:05 -!- foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:17:40 why is it that people are total asses on IRC, what the hell?! if something isn't the first hit on google, they flame their way out of helping. i remember hearing that #lisp was a freaking anoying channel because lispers didn't try to help enough. but seriously, this channel seems to be the promised land in comparison to the wildernis out there. 16:18:22 madnificent: what brings this on? 16:18:23 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 16:19:08 sacho [~sacho@95-42-91-219.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 16:19:35 *rswarbrick* fights the urge to reply with "Sod off and rot in hell, loser" just to prove that madnificent is wrong... 16:19:37 dlowe: i had to vent, sorry 16:19:40 madnificent: haha, right? 16:20:29 Qworkescence: what is Doron? or where can I see it? 16:20:31 madnificent: I am spoiled rotten on freenode irc from #lisp. 16:21:05 antifuchs: no, i mean it! when someone new comes here, the worst that can happen is being told to sod off *after* not listening to any help for minutes. i don't think i've ever come here asking for something in the spec and got the top two irrelevant hits on google :) 16:21:17 asvil`, it's a bunch of handwritten papers right now; it's a Thing (tm) which is intended to be a system for doing (experimental) mathematics 16:21:23 Guest2267 [~Kron@129-97-120-56.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:21:41 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 16:21:44 madnificent: I'm serious too. that's exactly my experience in far too many channels 16:21:45 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-56.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:22:15 antifuchs: ah, thought you were being ironic. :P 16:22:18 asvil`, I am taking my sweet time to design it correctly, and it's very difficult 16:22:35 nope (: 16:23:21 foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:23:39 *madnificent* thanks #lisp 16:24:11 Yeah, #lisp is indeed nice - but I've been here only a couple of days. 16:24:19 I ask ungoogleable stuff on another channel, and I'll get either silence or the stuff I googled before. much better here (-: 16:24:31 -!- mason [~user@wsip-98-189-9-189.oc.oc.cox.net] has left #lisp 16:25:25 -!- Guest2267 [~Kron@129-97-120-56.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 16:25:29 For example someone helping me with a newbie loop question earlier. Thanks, guys! 16:25:37 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-56.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:26:20 -!- dys` is now known as dys 16:26:27 i always hear complains that #lisp folk is elitist and arrogant, madnificent ;P 16:26:46 urandom__: yes! and i liked to believe that. it would mean the world was a better place. it is not! 16:26:48 urandom__: elitist == won't google for me. 16:27:22 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 16:28:16 People do sometimes have a really hard time in #lisp. Usually that comes from communication breakdown, where there is some kind of language or cultural barrier. 16:28:35 Or mental illness of some sort. 16:28:45 eh "it would mean the world was a better place" ? why? madnificent 16:28:47 Then there are people who don't really like or want to use Lisp but who want to solve a very short term problem. 16:29:00 This is not a great place for certain kinds of short-term problems. 16:32:09 Xach: less cultlral barrier than mental illness, I hope, but it does happen (: 16:32:11 Guest59629 [~jay@cpc4-lutn3-0-0-cust768.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:15 and that, yes 16:32:35 erm. MORE cultural barrier. 16:33:59 Vicfred [~Futaba@189.143.77.94] has joined #lisp 16:34:58 -!- Guest59629 is now known as jt123 16:34:59 Hm, big part of russian-spoken developers community also thinks about list as elite language. May be someone specifically extended this opinion:) 16:35:15 s/list/lisp 16:35:37 lisp _is_ an elite language 16:36:05 31337! 16:36:27 kilon [~user@athedsl-319010.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:36:28 there is some very strong emphasis on autodidact learning in programming communities that can be very confunsing for people that prefer to learn from other people 16:39:03 the russians have Refal, pretty cool lang too, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refal 16:39:07 notsonerdysunny [3b5caab5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.59.92.170.181] has joined #lisp 16:39:29 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:39:40 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:41:54 Xach: you mean a short term problem like "my recursion homework is due in an hour" 16:42:25 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 16:42:32 tali713` [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:39 slime gives you access to the call-graph.. I was wondering if I can generate an external file which contains the call-graph 16:43:48 notsonerdysunny: I spent a while playing with this with SBCL (using sb-introspect). 16:43:54 dlowe: yes. 16:43:58 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:03 Give me a sec and I'll pastebin the code I came up with. 16:44:04 dlowe: "the professor said we can't use cond" 16:44:21 "why no, nobody at my school can help me" 16:45:09 notsonerdysunny: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126849 16:45:17 (I managed to get the captcha wrong the first time...) 16:45:56 Ooh, I even exported to graphviz. 16:46:02 God, I'd completely forgotten this code! 16:46:06 -!- jt311 [~jt@cpc4-lutn3-0-0-cust768.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: IRC webchat at http://irc2go.com/] 16:47:06 Heh, now I remember. I wrote it to prove to myself that a change I wanted to make in maxima couldn't break anything. Turns out it could... 16:47:38 -!- kilon [~user@athedsl-319010.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:47:48 gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-13-25.dyn.bashtel.ru] has joined #lisp 16:48:13 homie [~homie@xdsl-78-35-153-253.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:49:08 osa1 [~sinan@88.244.138.72] has joined #lisp 16:51:22 urandom__:kgb drove the author of "Refal" out of the country. It is russian programming language but without main man. 16:52:24 there can only be one (maybe not so) benevolent dictator! 16:52:25 ISF [~ivan@201.82.138.222] has joined #lisp 16:52:30 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:52:34 rswarbrick: hah, I wrote almost the exact same code last week, but using swank instead of sb-introspect 16:52:50 :-) Well, yours is probably more portable then. 16:53:42 I'll try to blog about it tonight, was a fun little toy 16:56:09 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:57:48 Buglouse [~Buglouse@cpe-65-28-172-255.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:59:55 Thanks ryepup and rswarbrick 17:00:11 np :-) 17:01:26 I was actually interested in using it with swank-clojure .. 17:01:58 what modification would ryepup's code require to make that happen? 17:04:02 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 17:05:53 pnq [~nick@ACA25867.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:06:09 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:06:29 kilon` [~user@athedsl-383617.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:10:39 -!- kilon` is now known as kilon 17:16:30 spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-111-48.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:16:46 -!- bsamograd [~user@184.71.240.90] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:24:31 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: rpg] 17:25:18 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 17:25:22 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@68.15.125.214] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 17:25:47 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:29:52 chenbing` [~user@60.186.241.43] has joined #lisp 17:32:05 -!- chenbing [~user@60.186.241.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:35:53 -!- chenbing` [~user@60.186.241.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:40:02 bsamograd [~bsamograd@184.71.240.90] has joined #lisp 17:41:30 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:42:20 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.94] has joined #lisp 17:44:00 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.193.184] has joined #lisp 17:47:25 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA25867.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:48:06 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:48:16 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 17:49:08 -!- kpal [~kpal@46-252-115-213.sibtele.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:50:20 -!- notsonerdysunny [3b5caab5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.59.92.170.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:55:11 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:55:55 -!- orangejuice [~orangejui@66.96.251.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:56:47 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-56.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:57:57 -!- Pomo [~Pomo@67.197.37.202] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:03:00 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:13:26 is there a way to define generic functions depending on custom dispatch function? like defmulti's in clojure 18:15:54 osa1: write a dispatch function that calls a generic function with an eql specializer 18:17:22 -!- dtw [dtw@dsl-roibrasgw1-fe84fb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: (make-condition 'dtw:real-life)] 18:17:45 osa1: pascal constanza has something similar, a library named "filtered-functions" 18:18:05 dlowe: can you give an example? I don't know what eql specializer is 18:19:36 osa1: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/m_defmet.htm 18:19:40 read all about it 18:20:34 osa1: (defmethod handle-event (actor (kind (eql 'fart))) ...) 18:23:43 dlowe: eql doesn't work on strings, should I convert strings to symbols or is there a better way? 18:23:56 osa1: What is the overall goal? 18:24:13 osa1: eql works very well on strings. You just have to pass the same string. 18:24:49 (let ((str "abc")) (defmethod example ((s (eql str))) 'hi) (example str)) --> HI 18:25:41 Xach: I'm trying to write a IRC bot and I want to call handler funtion depending on message coming from IRC server. first I'm parsing message to and then I want to call generic function on string 18:26:12 osa1: I think it would be easier to just make a hash table with strings as keys. 18:26:14 osa1: usually, I make a mapping between strings and symbols with a hash table 18:26:23 and then dispatch off the symbols 18:26:25 osa1: Put a symbol or function as the value and funcall it. 18:26:55 Of course, you could abstract that away with (define-command-handler "sniglet" ...) or similar 18:27:25 Xach: dlowe: thanks. 18:27:33 Xach: I not that good at macros right now 18:27:40 -!- lispmeister [~fix@AStDenis-551-1-40-43.w90-43.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:27:44 *osa1* really loves clojure's multimethods with custom dispatch functions 18:29:10 there's something to like in every language. It's best not to think about the others when you're working in one 18:29:45 hehe I have pondering asking question regarding just that 18:29:53 have been* 18:29:54 -!- cpc262 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:24 I was going to ask which languages have people found the most inspirational 18:30:48 Commodore Basic 18:31:09 dlowe: your first/second language? 18:31:14 It inspired me to learn 6502 assembly 18:31:37 as a more sensible and readable alternative 18:31:41 I really mean more feature wise 18:31:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:32:38 Meh. Language features don't mean much out of context 18:32:53 with java you've to think really hard to do stuff you would do easily with other languages. 18:33:02 Quality comes from fitting them together well 18:34:17 dlowe: yes well the context would go with, I'm just curious if there is anything I should be checking out to learn about novel solutions to particular problems 18:35:09 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:20 -!- Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host188-225-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:37:29 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:39:39 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.55.251] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:19 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:44:36 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.136.73] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45:51 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:46:16 am0c [~am0c@175.253.0.215] has joined #lisp 18:48:35 kilon` [~user@athedsl-385230.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:51:18 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.185.237] has joined #lisp 18:51:26 -!- kilon [~user@athedsl-383617.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:52:22 Xach: ping 18:53:26 Suggestion for quickproject; would it be possible to check the args to make-project before creating the project directory 18:53:35 after downloading and installing a package(namely, iolib) with ql:quickload and then restarting the interpreter, (defpackage ... (:use package_name)) still gives an error, do I have to (require ...) it or am I doing something else wrong? 18:54:08 osa1: either define the dependency in an asdf file, or indeed ql:quickload it again! 18:54:26 The right thing is to define the dependency in an asdf file. 18:54:29 Guthur: Check it for what? 18:54:44 Guthur: parasites? 18:54:45 Xach: I passed in a non-list to :depends-on and it naturally throws an error, but it unnaturally created the project dir with a readme which stops further make-project 18:54:54 Xach: yes, parasites! 18:55:08 Guthur: if you open an issue on github i will be more likely to remember the request 18:55:11 With a flamethrower. 18:55:24 Guthur: it sounds like a good idea to me 18:55:30 yes to the flamethrower solution 18:55:44 not enough flamethrowers in CL projects 18:55:52 Xach: I'll raise a ticket 18:56:14 -!- kilon` is now known as kilon 18:56:28 maybe add something like alexandria:ensure-list 18:57:14 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@222.65.230.23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:00:07 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 19:00:25 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.193.4] has joined #lisp 19:01:07 davlap [~davlap@c-24-147-211-14.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:22 -!- velov [~velov@91.207.42.52] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 19:04:54 -!- whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-juttpexuuwxeohyi] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 19:04:55 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hlatkfqqhhponspb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:05:36 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:03 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@ceesit01.nees.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 19:06:03 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@ceesit01.nees.rpi.edu] has quit [Changing host] 19:06:03 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 19:06:29 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:09:31 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@ceesit01.nees.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 19:09:31 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@ceesit01.nees.rpi.edu] has quit [Changing host] 19:09:31 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 19:19:27 -!- am0c [~am0c@175.253.0.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:25:27 pnq [~nick@ACA239CB.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:25:29 whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kynoqvgqdgtxzyio] has joined #lisp 19:25:50 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.193.4] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 19:26:35 wingie [~wingie@c-5eeaaa34-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 19:27:48 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:29:12 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:30:53 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@ceesit01.nees.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 19:30:53 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@ceesit01.nees.rpi.edu] has quit [Changing host] 19:30:53 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 19:33:07 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-56.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 19:35:39 Modius [~user@72-48-144-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:45 -!- Modius [~user@72-48-144-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:35:50 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:38:57 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:39:20 -!- paroneayea [~user@fsf/member/paroneayea] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41:07 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:41:48 peterhil [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 19:44:42 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 19:44:46 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:57 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:45:29 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 19:48:45 -!- steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: quit?] 19:48:55 -!- NihilistDandy [~NihilistD@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:50:55 marsell [~marsell@120.18.211.37] has joined #lisp 19:52:09 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:54:23 http://dpaste.com/681019/, why this cause warning? 19:55:16 CrazyWoods: you have to use defparameter or let, anything but declare the variable. 19:55:18 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-egqnrnhptbghcvxa] has joined #lisp 19:55:20 orangejuice [~orangejui@66.96.251.117] has joined #lisp 19:56:08 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:57:31 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 20:00:11 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-13-25.dyn.bashtel.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:27 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-159-153.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:56 CrazyWoods: didn't we tell you not to use setq? 20:01:44 -!- nha [~prefect@p3E9E2D4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: You are Debian Linux. People have difficulty getting to know you. Once you finally open your shell, they're apt to love you.] 20:02:03 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:02:38 -!- CrazyWoods [~crazywood@220.160.190.46] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:02:41 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-111-48.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 20:07:09 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 20:11:31 -!- ddp [~ddp@anon-168-29.relakks.com] has quit [Quit: ddp] 20:13:26 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:16 rpg [~rpg@216.207.146.230] has joined #lisp 20:17:31 since I started hacking more elisp i keep accidently using setq 20:18:33 not use setq when ? 20:18:42 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:19:12 homie: ever 20:19:35 reall ? what is it good for then, why was it invented ? 20:19:48 homie: backward compat 20:19:49 homie: it was invented first and kept so old code could still run 20:19:50 +y* 20:20:25 mmmmd [~tasty@adsl-76-254-6-25.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:41 literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has joined #lisp 20:24:05 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@220-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:28 lemoinem [~swoog@45-74-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:03 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:53 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 20:28:08 -!- saint_cypher [~rjspotter@c-76-126-70-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:30:16 Guthur: just load cl and you can use setf 20:30:59 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:36 Aiwass: https://github.com/nikodemus/sb-daemon 20:34:25 stassats`: I probably should start using that 20:34:32 aintme [~user@228.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:34:43 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.207.146.230] has quit [Quit: rpg] 20:39:11 Adamant [~Adamant@50-10-127-225.gar.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:11 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@50-10-127-225.gar.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:39:11 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 20:41:49 ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 20:43:59 -!- homie [~homie@xdsl-78-35-153-253.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:44:04 snearch [~snearch@e179040187.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:45:49 -!- rswarbrick [~rswarbric@cl-1290.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:48:35 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-169-80-32.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:46 -!- hydo [~hydo@c-71-227-138-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 20:51:12 how do I achieve (defparameter (make-symbol "my-symbol") "some-value") 20:51:26 (setf symbol-value) 20:52:06 oh 20:52:09 cheers 20:52:20 Guthur: why do you want to do that? 20:52:54 Xach: actually I've just realised I don't hehe 20:54:37 phew 20:55:17 -!- leth [~user@fsf/member/leth] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:25 leth [~user@fsf/member/leth] has joined #lisp 20:57:18 Guthur: setf symbol-value is not enough. 20:58:14 (let ((sym (make-symbol "your-symbol"))) (proclaim `(special ,sym)) (setf (symbol-value sym) "some-value") (setf (documentation sym 'variable) "some documentation") sym) 20:58:19 proclaiming it special would be, but Guthur doesn't need it anymore 20:58:40 We don't know what he'll do with the symbol... 20:58:41 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:00:42 thanks for complete description pjb 21:01:10 you never know, I might need it 21:02:19 You may also use (progv (list (make-symbol "your-symbol")) (list "some-value") (do-somethin)) 21:02:29 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:40 or if the name is known at compiletime, use a macro 21:02:55 I did actually stumble across progv recently, may have been yesterday 21:02:59 Guthur: Why did you initially think you wanted it? 21:03:07 pjb, hello! 21:03:11 Phoodus: yes, and that was reason I realised I didn't need it anymore 21:03:12 Hello! 21:03:20 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c38b6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:28 Xach: Phoodus kind of hit the nail on the head there 21:03:35 pjb, you still didn't pull my informatimago/common-lisp/lisp-reader commits, btw 21:03:59 I'm lazy. And I don't know how to merge with git yet. 21:04:02 pjb, ..allowing control of missing packages/missing symbols actions 21:04:14 pjb, I merged it for you 21:04:16 hi 21:04:21 homie [~homie@xdsl-84-44-208-165.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:04:29 -!- Carmivore [~carmivmor@ec2-184-73-17-110.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:31 deepfire: if you send me an email I'll process it. 21:04:37 pjb, all you need is to fast-forward, as I've update the patches 21:04:42 pjb, all you need is to fast-forward, as I've updated the patches 21:04:42 ok 21:05:43 Xach: but a more detailed explanation; I wanted to map a collection of keywords to constant values, so I produced a macro to expand to some (defconstant name-of-keyword some-value) 21:05:57 deepfire: please, send me an email with the url of your repo. 21:06:04 I may yet decide it was a Bad Idea 21:06:15 pjb, ok 21:06:24 I've almost never had defconstant be a good idea :p 21:06:31 hmm, beirc does not reconnect 21:06:43 or rather does not detect when it times out 21:06:48 well yes someone said that 21:06:55 dlowe: these are quite constant though, part of FFI binding 21:07:36 Guthur: defconstant is a lot more finicky than other constructs. You may not have any problem with it 21:07:51 Usually, I just don't want to deal with the potential hassle 21:08:08 defconstant is only useful for optimization 21:08:08 Carmivore [~carmivmor@ec2-50-16-157-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 21:08:13 peterhil [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 21:10:29 -!- brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:10:56 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:12:46 can anyone help me about creating a non-blocking socket connection with iolib? the tutorial(http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~psilord/blog/data/iolib-tutorial/tutorial.html ) doesn't mention it 21:15:43 -!- wingie [~wingie@c-5eeaaa34-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has left #lisp 21:15:51 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 21:16:56 osa1: (let ((socket (make-socket :type :stream :address-family :internet))) (connect socket (lookup-hostname "bit.ly") :port 80 :wait nil)) 21:17:24 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:25 and use set-io-handler to set the callbacks. 21:18:38 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 21:18:51 thanks. where can I find more about io-handlers? 21:19:06 IIRC, in the tutorial. 21:19:46 http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~psilord/blog/data/iolib-tutorial/tutorial.html 21:21:14 modius [~user@72-48-144-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:23 -!- modius [~user@72-48-144-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21:44 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:23:09 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.185.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:27:34 -!- asvil` [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:27:53 asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has joined #lisp 21:29:38 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA239CB.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:30:07 Can I hook defpackage and in-package to replace package name for load package several times. Does anybody do the same? 21:30:30 I believe quicklisp does that. 21:30:38 You can have a look at ibcl too. 21:30:51 http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/ 21:32:55 -!- kilon [~user@athedsl-385230.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:34:52 pjb: it's still blocking(or I'm doing something else wrong). does anyone know a working non-bloking io example written in any library? 21:35:55 fe[nl]ix: I've had to access internal iolib symbols to get the job done, btw 21:36:04 fe[nl]ix: there were tears 21:37:19 fe[nl]ix: okay, just one. iolib.multiplex::fd-monitored-p 21:37:48 djuber [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:57 you could have edited the .asd file and looked what it exports and where 21:39:06 why wasn't I informed of this deficiency ? 21:39:31 fear of retribution? 21:39:39 hahaha 21:40:06 hmm, why do you need it ? 21:40:24 anyway, the way iolib is set up, you only want to add set the io handler when there's something to be written 21:40:52 I don't know if it's still true, but at one time setting the io handler twice on an fd made things explode 21:41:14 the entire muxer is a mess 21:41:45 in order to be able to use select as fallback, it uses epoll in level-triggered mode which doesn't work well 21:41:53 -!- aintme [~user@228.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:17 one should always use edge-triggered notifications, but that causes problems on OSX 21:42:23 etc etc 21:43:17 dlowe: I'm sorry 21:43:22 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:43:48 pnq [~nick@ACA2119E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:44:08 fe[nl]ix: no, no. I'm satisfied, just surprised that I had to break into the package 21:44:27 believe me, I had to do terrible things to implement persistent timers 21:44:28 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:44 in what way persistent ? 21:58:40 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:00 saint_cypher [~rjspotter@208.178.63.106] has joined #lisp 21:59:01 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:28 -!- ryepup [~user@216.155.103.30] has left #lisp 22:00:45 i will make a shortcut to sbcl --no-inform --no-sysinit --no-userinit --eval (....) 22:01:29 -!- osa1 [~sinan@88.244.138.72] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:59 homie: what for? 22:06:24 as a one-liner interpreter to be invoked from some client 22:06:36 or so 22:06:54 fe[nl]ix: I have a game in which timers are stored as database objects. 22:07:08 maybe i should put it in :interpret mode too 22:07:10 homie: sbcl --script 22:07:35 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 22:07:37 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Quit: Lähdössä] 22:07:37 well, i don't want to edit a file.... 22:10:42 homie: sounds reasonable. No idea if the interpret option would make much difference performancewise, unless your oneliner is computationally expensive, and then it would probably slow down things. 22:12:58 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:13:32 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has joined #lisp 22:14:44 -!- Kryztof [~user@AMontsouris-551-1-12-62.w90-24.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:15:51 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:16:04 Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-49-127-1-49.its.monash.edu.au] has joined #lisp 22:16:23 -!- homie [~homie@xdsl-84-44-208-165.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:16:34 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:16:48 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:55 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:17:07 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:17:18 -!- ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:18:33 ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:14 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:23:20 Any SBCL hackers want to explain a dead-code warning to me: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126853 22:24:52 -!- djuber [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:53 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:24:54 -!- tali713` is now known as tali713 22:29:04 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has joined #lisp 22:29:37 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:29:44 gigamonkey: not an answer, but I was just working with the latest and greatest sbcl the other day and got a pretty wierd (and similar) dead code warning as well that I couldn't explain...maybe a recent sbcl regression? 22:31:30 It seems perhaps to do with the LOOP over nil--if I change the macro so it doesn't generate the LOOP at all if the list is empty, then no note. 22:31:43 But what's weird is the other call to the macro that also generates a loop over nil doesn't get any note. 22:34:02 -!- asvil [~filonenko@178.124.160.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:50 gigamonkey: hi, hoe are you ? 22:35:03 Hi Posterdati 22:35:06 good 22:35:08 How are you? 22:35:54 gigamonkey: because the loop body is never executed? 22:36:03 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:30 pkhuong: Sure, that's my theory. But why do I only get the note on one of the calls to the macro? 22:36:42 And b) that's annoying. 22:36:42 gigamonkey: not bad not bad! 22:36:44 ;-) 22:36:48 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-49-127-1-49.its.monash.edu.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 22:37:37 thre's a lot of heuristics trying to muffle style warnings or notes. nikodemus can probably tell you more about it. 22:37:39 -!- clop2 [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37:51 I seem to run into this problem from time to time where macro expansions may, in some cases, lead to dead code or unused variables. It seems silly to have to adjust the macro to account for those edge cases just to get the compiler to shut up. 22:38:12 But maybe I'd be sad to be missing legit warnings. 22:39:46 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:41:09 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-56.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:41:59 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@79.Red-88-7-134.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 22:42:23 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c38b6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:42:44 brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:44:57 I have exported some symbols using export but this causes a warning when compiling the defpackage 22:45:07 is there a way to silence this 22:45:47 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.193.4] has joined #lisp 22:45:57 rswarbrick [~rswarbric@cl-1290.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:08 warning: MY-PACKAGE also exports the following symbols: 22:46:58 admittedly I am recompiling the defpackage at this point 22:47:16 Guthur: delete the package and reload. 22:54:26 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:09 Guthur: do not use export, but (defpackage ... (:export ...)). 22:56:47 pjb: normally I would 22:56:49 -!- snearch [~snearch@e179040187.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:57:08 though to be honest I could maybe get away without exporting these 22:57:09 ...will see 22:58:10 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:36 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.193.4] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 23:01:38 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:02:04 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:03:20 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:30 peterhil [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 23:05:21 yep, not going to export 23:08:38 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:08:57 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:16:27 alek_b [~alek_b@99-10-120-63.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:56 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:17:11 ja csh 23:17:19 gna wrong window 23:17:46 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:19:21 nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:57 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 23:22:44 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:25:43 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:04 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129248096.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 23:35:54 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 23:44:21 *Xach* feels the excitement 23:45:09 nearly palatable 23:46:02 Demosthenes [~demo@me82c36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:17 palpable, even :P 23:46:28 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:47:27 macrobat_ [~geggamojj@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 23:47:34 hehe, yes 23:47:51 well I did decide a wanted a cup of honey drink 23:48:46 I could claim so subconscious contextual override 23:49:09 so/some 23:54:31 -!- jt123 [~jay@cpc4-lutn3-0-0-cust768.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:19 jt123 [~jayan@cpc4-lutn3-0-0-cust768.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:59:07 -!- felideon [~user@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)]