00:00:10 Cosman246: tough luck. You get to reimplement the world yourself. 00:00:15 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@96-32-136-249.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:00:24 kpal [~kpal@46.252.124.61] has joined #lisp 00:00:30 I'm just convinced that there's a simpler way to do it 00:00:46 Cosman246: load alexandria, cut & paste its definition 00:00:52 then don't use alexandria again 00:00:54 Cosman246: check the anotation, does that look better? 00:01:09 or do what Xach said 00:01:10 just a sec 00:01:51 madnificent: it certainly does 00:01:54 Thank you 00:02:36 Cosman246: you should probably look at the definition alexandria uses though, if it's different it's better 00:02:47 I will 00:03:40 I'll need to nest that, though 00:03:46 It should still work 00:03:56 unless nesting with-open-files breaks something 00:04:20 Cosman246: I explained the simple way to do it to you. 00:04:25 or, well 00:04:26 to madnificent 00:04:40 Thank you, Ralith 00:05:22 *madnificent* never had to read a character-based, yet not line-based, file before. odd. 00:05:36 specifically, (read-sequence (make-string (file-length stream)) stream) should work. 00:05:59 Ralith: read-sequence doesn't return the sequence 00:06:11 except for unicode 00:06:47 stassats`: file-length will overestimate the length at worst, right? 00:07:31 would want to use an adjustable array with a fill pointer to deal with that, but that's easy enough 00:07:39 stassats`: ah man, i knew that. why didn't i think of it? 00:07:56 actually, that's something that wouldn't be failing with read-line. unicode should just work. 00:08:05 ISF_ec09 [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 00:08:06 madnificent: you're not as smart as i am, that's why! 00:08:48 stassats`: the emphasis wasn't supposed to be on `i' in those sentences :) 00:09:23 that doesn't change anything! 00:09:39 hehe, i knew this would come though :D 00:10:15 stassats`: i grant you, you're smart. i'm glad you corrected me. i could've used such code in the wildernis where it doesn't belong. 00:10:41 Cosman246: so, you'd want something like http://paste.lisp.org/display/126715 00:10:43 -!- ISF__ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:11:20 Ralith: why didn't you annotate? 00:11:31 because I am lazy and forgetful! 00:11:44 Thanks, Ralith 00:11:54 *madnificent* finds that uglier than using read-line 00:12:09 it's understandable though 00:12:14 you have strange taste. 00:12:33 *madnificent* grabs a pint of guinness and smiles 00:13:26 adjustable arrays! eww, that's slow! 00:14:18 o.O 00:14:20 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@96-32-136-249.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:15:10 I'll....stick with the string solution for right now 00:15:28 as to your comment, stassats`, does this have any problem with unicode? 00:15:44 which this? 00:16:00 the string solution 00:16:06 what is "the string solution?" 00:16:20 calling read-line, i assume 00:16:20 (read-sequence (make-string (file-length stream)) stream) 00:16:27 Cosman246: that doesn't even work 00:16:30 that solution is erroneous, as was discussed. 00:16:43 Oh 00:16:45 you should use the solution I pasted. 00:16:57 you could use make-string with a default of #\space, no? 00:17:14 you wouldn't need to use the fillpointer in that case 00:17:15 Ralith: where in read-sequence specification is stated that it'll adjust the fill-pointer? 00:17:30 stassats`: you'd have to ask someone more familiar with the spec than me 00:17:53 so, you're not expecting that paste to work? 00:17:59 madnificent: that would result in a sequence which does not accurately represent the file's contents. 00:18:03 stassats`: I expect it to work just fine. 00:18:34 hm 00:18:36 guess not! 00:18:39 by work you mean returning #()? 00:18:47 apparently. 00:18:58 Ralith: i know that, but it may be good enough for what Cosman246 wants 00:19:09 stassats`: well, how would you do it? 00:19:36 it would seem that a unicode lib might be necessary. 00:19:39 Cosman246: do you mind extra spaces at the end of your string (or any other character of your choosing) 00:19:40 or something. 00:19:47 madnificent: nope! 00:19:53 Cosman246: let me annotate then 00:20:05 OK 00:20:17 lusory [~bart@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 00:20:45 Ralith: at least (let ((buffer (make-array (file-length stream) :fill-pointer t))) (setf (fill-pointer buffer) (read-sequence buffer stream)) buffer) 00:20:52 Cosman246: refresh 00:20:56 oh, right 00:21:18 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-71-129-61-74.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 00:21:38 Thanks madnificent! 00:21:39 does http://paste.lisp.org/display/126714#2 have the potential of breaking? aside from it adding blank characters. 00:21:49 well, spaces, not blank characters 00:22:19 but i wouldn't really use an non-simple vector, so, (let ((buffer (make-array (file-length stream)))) (subseq buffer 0 (read-sequence buffer stream))) 00:22:25 Cosman246: you're welcome, but let's see if other eyes notice errors in this little piece of code. also: alexandria is smarter than me. 00:22:41 OK 00:23:39 stassats`: why does that matter? 00:23:49 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-251-130-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:23:52 Ralith: because non-simple vectors are slow 00:24:12 why do you say that? 00:24:27 because it's true 00:24:45 ... 00:24:46 stassats`: wouldn't the speed be overshadowed by the fact that you need to read content from disk? << a real question 00:25:12 I imagine he's talking about future operations, not the read itself. 00:25:13 madnificent: if that's what all you do, yes 00:25:37 stassats`: oh sorry, i only catch your drift now, sorry 00:26:28 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:26:30 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.167.145] has joined #lisp 00:26:48 -!- pavelpenev [~pavelludi@83.222.167.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:27:02 -!- pavelludiq is now known as pavelpenev 00:29:26 Kron [~Kron@CPE0013f7c06a42-CM0013f7c06a3e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:29:52 -!- Kron is now known as Guest63705 00:31:17 the file reading thing is not in the Alexandria documentation 00:31:41 -!- Guest63705 [~Kron@CPE0013f7c06a42-CM0013f7c06a3e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:31:58 Kron__ [~Kron@CPE0013f7c06a42-CM0013f7c06a3e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:32:15 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@CPE0013f7c06a42-CM0013f7c06a3e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:32:18 Xach: why are you opposed to the use of alexandria? 00:33:03 Cosman246: i don't see it in there either. Xach do you have an idea what other library it may be in? 00:33:17 Ralith: I'm not. 00:33:32 madnificent: it's in alexandria, just not in the documentation 00:33:34 Ralith: think longer and you'll see an advice to use alexandria :) 00:33:39 Ralith: If alexandria is an obstacle for whatever reason, you can yank out bits of it. 00:33:57 did Cosman246 imply that was the case? 00:34:00 alexandria:read-file-into-string 00:34:02 Ralith: yes. 00:34:07 ah. 00:34:24 stassats`: woah, is the documentation really incomplete? i like alexandria, but i tend to check the manual first 00:34:36 -!- ngz [~user@23.78.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:34:37 madnificent: i don't read documentation! 00:34:44 Cosman246: alexandria is incredibly useful; once familiar with it you'll surely find much more use to it than merely reading files. 00:34:45 jaminja [~jameen@85.17.232.145] has joined #lisp 00:34:46 -!- jaminja [~jameen@85.17.232.145] has quit [Changing host] 00:34:46 jaminja [~jameen@unaffiliated/jaminja] has joined #lisp 00:34:51 such obscure function names 00:34:55 i just use autocompletion 00:35:02 autocompletion and M-. 00:35:03 <3 00:35:09 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:35:57 *madnificent* uses manifest to figure out what's in there (thank you gigamonkey) 00:37:21 CallToPower [~CallToPow@calltopower.org] has joined #lisp 00:37:32 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:37:52 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@96-32-136-249.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:38:30 madnificent: what is in there? 00:39:02 functions, macros, methods! 00:39:38 ....indeed 00:39:51 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:54 Cosman246: a lot! 00:41:27 Cosman246: it's fairly lightweight and almost any system with a significant amount of lisp stuff installed will have it already. 00:41:48 will have alexandria already? 00:42:16 -!- kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-1-137-101.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:42:25 Oh, read-file-into-string! 00:42:29 I'll look for that 00:43:01 will have alexandria already, yes 00:43:25 ah, thanks 00:44:02 besides, it's quicklisp era, who cares about dependencies? 00:45:06 yay 00:45:14 I'll just go with alexandria 00:45:15 Microcontrollers with 128 bytes of memory 00:45:47 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:46:10 Xach: we'll conquer that realm after we win the battle of the server! 00:46:18 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-128-176.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 00:46:19 of, for, whatever 00:47:14 in the vicinity of. 00:47:23 The Battle Near the Server 00:48:45 Taslem [40e9e315@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.233.227.21] has joined #lisp 00:49:19 Hi. So where can I get a Common Lisp implementation? 00:49:29 Taslem: what OS are you using? 00:49:34 Windows 00:49:44 7, if that matters. 00:50:00 Go get Lisp Cabinet 00:50:20 Thanks, didn't know what it was called 00:50:25 (it comes with two or three implementations, and a nice development environment to use them) 00:50:31 It's an IDE 00:50:38 I prefer SBCL myself, and it comes with that 00:50:39 is it up to date? 00:50:46 i've never heard of Lisp Cabinet are you sure that's a wise thing? 00:50:54 does it include quicklisp? 00:51:15 stassats`: looks like it 00:51:15 from its website "Yes, there is Lispbox, and it works pretty well, but it lacks such important feature as ASDF-INSTALL" 00:51:16 I'm not on DOS, I wouldn't know if it includes quicklisp 00:51:17 Taslem: if you're new (and even if you're not), you'll soon want to use quicklisp :) 00:51:37 but I know it's better than lispbox 00:51:59 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.2.151] has joined #lisp 00:52:28 Cosman246: what has DOS got to do with quicklisp? 00:52:33 Taslem: do you use emacs? 00:52:41 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A29DC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:52:41 Only a little. 00:52:43 stassats`:quicklisp is DOS only 00:52:45 Taslem: on #lisp we can ask that without starting a flamewar :) 00:52:45 -!- g000001_ is now known as g000001 00:52:48 I downloaded this before. 00:52:52 Just on a different computer. 00:53:10 Cosman246: what kind of wrong information is that? 00:53:13 Cosman246: what the hell are you talking about? 00:53:16 http://lispcabinet.sourceforge.net/ 00:53:21 Oops 00:53:23 Sorry 00:53:26 Not quicklisp 00:53:48 does lisp cabinet provide an ide and stuff? if Taslem knows a bit of emacs, shouldn't we advise him a normal implementation + quicklisp to setup slime? 00:53:53 Clarification: Lisp Cabinet is DOS only 00:53:58 what? 00:54:00 no it's not. 00:54:06 I don't know enough of emacs to use it well. 00:54:08 madnificent: lisp cabinet is a packaged emacs+slime :P 00:54:09 I call it DOS because I want to :P 00:54:10 madnificent: it provides slime and quicklisp 00:54:20 Cosman246: that's incredibly obstructive of you. 00:54:22 Taslem: you'd have to learn it 00:54:23 and emacs-goodies 00:54:40 Ralith, stassats`: that's cool... i guess we should've had that for a long time 00:54:48 we did 00:54:51 it was called lispbox 00:54:55 but it didn't get maintained very well 00:54:59 yeah, but that wasn't maintained 00:55:01 so now we have it again! 00:55:01 ah yes 00:55:17 It also has support for Clojure and Racket 00:55:20 lucky bastards 00:55:24 I'm not sure if this is getting maintained very well either, but it hasn't been dead as long, at the very least. 00:55:29 jackhammer2022 [~textual@c-76-119-13-121.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:39 Just go with Lisp Cabinet 00:55:42 Taslem: do you have emacs installed already? 00:55:46 hm 00:55:48 the most recent Lispbox only comes with CCL 00:55:49 it's got a more recent SBCL than I do 00:55:55 madnificent: shouldn't matter 00:55:56 so that probably counts as maintained 00:55:56 On another computer. 00:56:04 And yeah, it doesn't matter. 00:56:10 lisp cabinet is everything you want and need. 00:56:19 for right now 00:56:23 fortune and fame? 00:56:34 As for implementations, I'd go with SBCL 00:56:34 Taslem: well, then i guess you have your answer. i know nothing of lisp cabinet, but it seems to easiest way to start out. :) 00:56:40 stassats`: in a win32 .exe installer, no less! 00:57:39 where do you see the lisp that's included. what version of sbcl is it? 00:58:08 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-198-255-25.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:31 madnificent: it's listed on the front page... 01:00:04 Ralith: i hadn't seen the link to their website on the main page of the sourceforge project. 01:00:24 all sourceforge projects have the website link in the same place... 01:00:32 *Ralith* ellipses around 01:01:36 sourceforge... like it's 1999 01:02:12 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:02:27 stassats`: isn't it? 01:04:03 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:06:02 except that sometimes that link goes to default project page 01:09:20 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:09:24 khisanth_ [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 01:09:33 tester [~tester@adsl-108-133-3-218.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:40 -!- tester [~tester@adsl-108-133-3-218.mia.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 01:09:48 wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has joined #lisp 01:09:52 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:10:18 -!- khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 01:10:40 i don't really get the class reinitalization protocol, reinitialize-instance is only called on the redefined class but not on its subclasses and still slots of subclasses are updated 01:11:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 01:11:01 what does it call and how can i hook into it? 01:12:35 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:14:00 it calls compute-slots, apparently 01:14:37 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-148-186-247.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:03 -!- rswarbrick [~rswarbric@cpc1-cove3-0-0-cust941.3-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:17:39 talman [~talman@41.239.2.196] has joined #lisp 01:17:47 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 01:17:56 this is not apparent, i thought it would call finalize-inheritance 01:19:15 -!- talman [~talman@41.239.2.196] has left #lisp 01:19:40 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:20:59 martixy [martixy@78.90.38.181] has joined #lisp 01:22:00 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-71-129-61-74.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:52 write your own clos to better understand it! 01:25:11 compute-slots would do fine in the meantime 01:26:07 one of these days i'll solder myself a computer from transistors which will interpret CL natively 01:27:12 would fill a room, but at least i'll understand how it works completely 01:27:26 How does Common Lisp do parallel computing, exactly? 01:27:45 steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 01:27:55 CL standard has no provisions for parallel computing 01:28:10 Really? 01:28:17 so, similar to how most languages do it. 01:28:19 really! 01:28:45 Your exposition is unnecessary. 01:29:14 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:26 bobzhang [~user@66.250.143.212] has joined #lisp 01:30:46 how's madeira doing? 01:31:15 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 01:31:15 -!- pnq [~nick@AC82CA76.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:31:30 pnq [~nick@ACA23655.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:32:22 Taslem: bordeaux-threads may be of interest. 01:33:08 why are they all named after wine regions? 01:33:30 I blame Xach. 01:34:16 *stassats`* can't wait to name something hawkes-bay 01:35:09 stassats`: bordeaux-threads is where it started, I believe as a pun on "green threads" 01:35:36 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@67.217.136.82] has joined #lisp 01:36:07 antifuchs: not because beach is at bordeaux U? 01:36:24 stassats`: I almost went for an obscure ontario region. 01:36:29 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:36:45 I can't wait when we get walla-walla or puget-sound-ava 01:36:53 pkhuong: well, that too - the spec got started during LSM 2005 in bordeaux, I believe 01:37:43 Wait, what else is named after a wine region? 01:38:32 madeira (: 01:38:41 Taslem: the standard doesn't require threading and doesn't talk about afaik. in real life, there's bordeaux-threads which is an abstraction of the implementation differences of the threading in various implementations (as threading isn't standardized, implementations tend to use different constructs to represent it). madeira is an effort of nikodemus to implement a new threading library. madeira is part of a crowdfunding campaign of 01:38:41 him. 01:38:55 and now there's napa-fft 01:39:06 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:22 lispers require lots of rotten grape juice to function! 01:39:46 *antifuchs* not a wine fan, to be an exception to the rule (-: 01:40:03 that's a good idea, i'll have to find some napa wine 01:40:07 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:40:09 What is Madeira? 01:40:18 antifuchs: I am not of legal age in my area 01:40:25 Cosman246: an island 01:40:26 Cosman246: http://random-state.net/log/3522216438.html has a summary 01:40:26 Oh 01:40:33 Taslem: aside from those, there are some libraries which provide constructs to make threading simpler in various occasions. cliki will likely be of help there. lisp is flexible, so there are many possibilities in this respect. 01:40:48 Hey... Up until 10 mins ago I have no idea what LISP was. That said, could someone help me understand this bit here: http://ideone.com/Oqvpu (a rewrite to something C-like would also work) 01:41:13 it's scheme 01:41:28 isn't that scheme? 01:41:37 Yeah, that's scheme 01:41:41 YOu are the Lisp channel. 01:41:46 Oughn't you know Scheme too? :3 01:41:48 what with define 01:41:55 Go to #scheme for scheme 01:41:56 Taslem: we are the Common Lisp channel 01:42:21 Er... was that intended for me? 01:42:28 yes 01:42:35 Speaking of which, I've been wondering if someone's tried to bridge Scheme and CL 01:42:45 that seems like an odd thing to do 01:42:45 martixy: you should try #scheme, yes :) 01:42:47 Not for any particular reason, I just like bridges 01:42:51 bridge? 01:42:57 FFI 01:43:00 So what is scheme and how is it different from lisp 01:43:20 Scheme is a Lisp dialect. 01:43:21 martixy: it's a different language 01:43:23 martixy: scheme is a dialect of LISP. 01:43:29 martixy: it started out as a teaching language in the lisp language family. 01:43:33 Common Lisp is also a dialect of LISp 01:43:35 *LISP 01:43:37 This channel is for the Common Lisp dialect of Lisp. 01:43:38 martixy: if you need to pick between the two, lisp is the practical one and scheme is the theoretically pretty one. with lisp standard for Common Lisp. 01:43:51 If you're familiar with the history of C-like languages 01:43:59 martixy: in this channel, we mostly discuss the Common Lisp dialect, which sometimes confuses people unfamiliar with the classification (: 01:44:00 then compare Common Lisp with C++ 01:44:06 and Scheme with Java 01:44:08 martixy: there's a #scheme channel on this network too, though 01:44:09 and MACLisp with C 01:44:11 don't! 01:44:23 Cosman246: i'd completely disagree. whet the hell are you talking about? 01:44:24 Like me. But ok, I'll try there too. 01:44:25 in terms of elegance vs. features 01:44:29 not in terms of eras 01:44:41 -!- steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:44:41 Cosman246: not even like that 01:44:42 It's not a *perfect* comparison 01:45:03 it's totally wrong 01:45:08 antifuchs: I believe the spirit of choice depends more on nationality :) 01:45:10 it's like comparing a car to the moon and a truck to a shopping bag 01:45:14 maclisp has lots of features, scheme is much simpler than java 01:45:19 *not* a comparison 01:45:21 OK, sorry 01:45:22 and CL is not as brain-damaged as C++ 01:45:37 heh 01:45:47 I was talking about the fact that C++ also tries for compatibility with C 01:45:57 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA23655.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:46:06 (I have a copy of CLTL 1ed.) 01:46:18 as CL did for MACLisp, iirc 01:46:30 the thing is, there is no reason to make such a comparison at all 01:46:35 Er... if I may interject... isn't C++ a strict superset of C 01:46:41 i don't think it helps anyone to understand anything better 01:46:44 Fine, fine 01:47:00 p_l|backup: well, I believe it was Dan Barlow who came up with the name but I could be wrong (: 01:47:01 martixy: ignore the comparison :) 01:47:05 Cosman246: there is also the thing that C++ was a brain damaged mix of additions. If you want a compatible superset, Objective-C is much closer iirc 01:47:05 I thought it would make it easier to understand, that's all 01:47:13 I guess 01:47:27 p_l|backup: there was also a bordeaux streams proposal, initiated by our own rudi, who isn't french either (-: 01:47:38 *Cosman246* whistles to himself 01:47:41 steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 01:47:54 and nikodemus could not be any less portugese if he tried! 01:47:58 martixy offtopic but C++ isn't a strict C superset 01:48:03 pnq [~nick@ACA25BA7.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:48:04 Anyway, just forget the last 2 minutes 01:48:14 Or 5 01:48:16 Cosman246: it's good to try. but you might've wanted to think about it a tad longer :) 01:48:19 antifuchs: there's a visible geographic separation regarding where which drinks are favoured - you have the wine belt, beer belt, and "strong spirits" (aka vodka) belt ;) 01:48:27 p_l|backup: ahahaha 01:48:29 madnificent: Yeah 01:48:40 That was my impression, but ok. 01:48:54 p_l|backup: well, my preference is for no alcohol at all, and my origin culture definitely favors wine and beer (-: 01:49:01 canadian club fft doesn't have the same right, frankly. 01:49:15 ahahaha 01:49:16 indeed 01:49:19 On the other hand #scheme is way "deader" than this channel. 01:49:42 hey pkhuong, i want to talk to you about your package local nicknames thing. it's not named package-local-nicknames i guess, but 3b told me you had something similar. 01:49:45 but then, this channel is about liquor and biking (-; 01:49:45 #lispcafe is also dead 01:49:48 *same ring, even. 01:50:18 Sorry, martixy 01:50:29 pkhuong: what's the current state? do you intend to continue its development? 01:50:30 -!- steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:50:37 pkhuong: and what should i search for :) 01:50:46 antifuchs: I avoid drinking, but somehow I gravitate towards whiskey, liquors and such, all stronger than beer ;) 01:50:53 martixy: do you need any help? 01:51:00 jd-threads? 01:51:04 (all distilled or made from distilled spirit) 01:52:06 we might be sounding a little incoherent right now 01:53:05 pkhuong: if you read it later, /msg me please. i may miss it otherwise 01:53:32 So I've read in a lot of places that apparently Lisp is ideal for artificial intelligence. 01:53:33 Thoughts? 01:53:40 when can we get minion back? 01:53:50 Taslem: Lisp is ideal for everything 01:53:59 What stassats` said 01:54:07 It's especially *used* in AI 01:54:15 it isn't 01:54:21 well, AFAIK 01:54:26 Right, that's what I've found. 01:54:35 At least it *was*, given what I've read 01:54:37 nah, these days it's all Java, C++, sometimes .NET, and surprising amounts of assembly 01:54:47 Really? 01:54:50 Even though I see everywhere mention it briefly, I haven't actually come across more than a single AI run in Lisp. 01:55:02 Cosman246: that doesn't prevent you to write AI programs in Lisp! 01:55:35 Yeah, but if I ever want to be a researcher when I get a degree.... 01:55:36 lisp was big early enabler for old style "neat" AI because of ease of symbolic manipulation 01:55:47 Why did they give it up? 01:55:52 funding? 01:55:55 Yes. 01:56:05 *Cosman246* cries 01:56:16 Cosman246: funding loss caused by industry backlash after certain people's unfounded predictions didn't work out 01:56:27 Lisp got the boot by association 01:56:35 (the real victim was AI itself) 01:56:37 -!- kpal [~kpal@46.252.124.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:56:52 Do you think the situation will ever reverse? 01:57:14 AI is a blurry term, many AI techniques are used everywhere nowadays 01:57:43 Cosman246: as soon as you write an AI in lisp. 01:57:55 Haha 01:57:56 stassats`: it is only AI until it starts working; then it's something else :) 01:57:56 Cosman246: these days? Outside research, if you're adventurous enough to actually write "AI" on your papers, your only referee is "use what brings most bang for the buck" 01:58:01 Taslem: i was attracted to lisp by the features it offered. i guess you could compare it to saying that java was built for the web (if you remember the applets). the original lisp was somewhat designed for AI, but even then not exclusively for that. the community around it has evolved into something less focussed. 01:58:04 CL is quite good in that area 01:58:08 *madnificent* prepares to be flamed for his comparison :) 01:58:16 Know of any existing libraries for natural language processing in Lisp? 01:58:43 -!- akovalenko [~akovalenk@95.73.49.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:58:45 Taslem: http://act-r.psy.cmu.edu/ 01:58:52 Taslem: look at the CMU AI repo 01:59:16 p_l|backup: what about *in* research? 01:59:24 Cosman246: you write papers, not code 01:59:26 Cosman246: : http://act-r.psy.cmu.edu/ 02:00:48 in reality, it all depends on what your project is 02:00:54 Hm 02:01:04 the AI people at my uni sometimes fondly recall AI 02:01:12 I'm just a freshman! 02:01:51 My group for software engineering year-long project ended up submitting a preliminary design document that uses AllegroCL 02:02:05 Mm 02:02:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_effect 02:02:18 I wonder if it's still used in natural language processing..... 02:02:28 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-251-130-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 02:02:59 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 02:03:21 Cosman246: nobody prevents you to use it in nlp. 02:03:53 pjb: Nobody at home.... 02:04:35 What about in the field? 02:04:55 Be your own boss and use whatever tool you want. 02:04:59 Cosman246: ^ 02:05:38 :/ 02:05:58 I wonder if that'll work in academia. I hope so 02:06:07 you can just as well be like google and use a controlled subset of C++ mixed with other bits, all powered by dead babies 02:07:11 ....? 02:07:22 I just wonder how it'll work in academia 02:07:23 -!- Taslem [40e9e315@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.233.227.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:07:39 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:09:20 Is it all standardized? 02:09:44 In academia you do as you want http://act-r.psy.cmu.edu/ 02:10:34 So, when I become a researcher, I can still work with this and not lose funding? 02:10:55 Or is that a complete mishmash of ideas that isn't true? 02:11:25 Perhaps you should ask on #nolisp 02:11:25 it must either not matter what you do it, or you must be able to justify why you're not doing like everyone else/the best in the field. 02:11:28 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 02:11:34 just like the rest of the world. 02:12:16 Well, google also uses javascript. 02:12:35 Zhivago: dart or java that compiles to JS ;) 02:12:45 And javascript. 02:12:48 -!- chenbing` [~user@122.233.179.205] has left #lisp 02:12:52 Also also python, and go, and java. 02:13:10 hm 02:13:16 But they do seem to have done a reasonable job in picking the least grotesque features of C++. 02:13:20 chenbing [~user@122.233.179.205] has joined #lisp 02:13:34 They also use scheme in some very small domains. 02:13:41 yeah, their style guide is quite nice 02:14:06 Zhivago: Scheme? Outside of AppInventor I don't think it really went anywhere 02:14:14 That's a very small domain. 02:14:29 I think there are a couple of other places, but I can't remember off-hand. 02:14:46 Go... I don't think it's that widely used there 02:14:49 Frankly, lisp has few special benefits for AI these days. 02:14:53 Java is supposedly phased out 02:15:03 When AI was all about symbolic reasoning, it was a different matter. 02:15:22 yeah. Lisp has benefits in general programming, IMHO (the infamous sales talk from LW webpage, anyone?) 02:15:29 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:15:30 If anything java is being used increasingly. 02:15:57 These days, AI is about statistics. 02:16:04 I know that at my uni, they teach LISP in AI classes, I don't know if they *use* it 02:16:06 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@67.217.136.82] has quit [Quit: RomyEatsDrupal] 02:16:23 Cosman246: go tell them on #nolisp. 02:16:46 And when you're crunching numbers, it doesn't really matter what you use for the crunching -- the coordination is the tricky big, and most toy AI systems fit into one machine these days, so ... 02:16:46 Cosman246: the use of all caps name means the course wasn't updated since CLtL1 02:17:09 pjb: #nolisp doesn't seem to exist 02:17:21 Cosman246: just type /join #nolisp and start talking. 02:17:23 Personally, I'd rather they taught javascript as a first language. 02:17:47 I'm the only one in the channel 02:18:05 Cosman246: yes, you're the only one complaining that lisp is not used. 02:18:19 But go on, perhaps you'll gather a following. 02:18:41 mm 02:19:19 I don't know. I'm not ready for a following 02:19:24 Not yet 02:19:55 Zhivago: What's the use for Lisp, these days? 02:20:06 Euthy: follow Cosman246 on #nolisp 02:20:17 Why? 02:20:28 Lisp is of no use. 02:20:56 Why should I follow Cosman? 02:21:15 I'm just an undergrad! I have no professional experience! Don't follow me yet 02:21:22 Wait for 10, 15 years 02:21:23 To discuss how lisp is not used. 02:21:24 then follow me 02:21:25 Zhivago: and why do you assume lisp isn't good for statistics? 02:21:38 I don't think he said that. 02:21:55 pjb: Why would I want to do that? 02:23:36 madnificent: Where did I assume that? 02:23:42 Euthy: lisp is being used in many areas. in some cases as a competitive advantage. you'll have to look out. the better question may be "where can lisp be used" 02:23:50 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 02:24:07 But it'll all come to naught if you can't read properly. 02:24:36 "And when you're crunching numbers, it doesn't really matter what you use for the crunching" and then you start talking about other stuff 02:24:45 Good news! 02:24:52 My uni uses Lisp for NLP! 02:24:55 even in the raytracer i built, which is number crunching as well, the highlevel lisp constructs came in handy. 02:25:21 csdserver [~csdserver@unaffiliated/csddesk] has joined #lisp 02:25:23 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@pool-96-242-142-128.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Offline] 02:25:36 madnificent: Have you hit your head recently? 02:25:57 madnificent: That doesn't imply that I assume that lisp isn't good for statistics. 02:26:12 Zhivago: not that i can remember ^_^ but i remember you rambling nonsense before... 02:26:37 Zhivago: Where do you see Lisp, or Lisp-like languages, still having an advantage? 02:26:43 madnificent: Probably a reflection of poor reading comprehension. 02:26:44 if you state that lisp isn't a match there, you're assuming the higher level constructs are of no gain there. you're free to state so, but i don't agree. 02:26:56 madnificent: Where did I state that lisp isn't a match there? 02:27:31 -!- mathslin` [~user@119.255.44.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:27:38 mathslin` [~user@119.255.44.227] has joined #lisp 02:28:30 Euthy: Frankly, I think that most of the juice has been extracted already. 02:28:59 Euthy: The only thing really left to lisp is the common use of macros. 02:29:38 Zhivago: ever heard of implying something? it's what makes fox people believe Iraq was involved in 911 02:29:39 Zhivago: There's also s-expy syntax 02:29:39 Euthy: And CL's condition system and instance migration system, perhaps. 02:29:53 madnificent: You need to learn how to read. 02:30:22 Zhivago: please please, go away from #lisp. please make my day and just never come back. whenever you're here you're spreading nonsense to people who care and i find it sad. 02:30:27 Euthy: Most of the rest has entered the common contain of language. 02:30:47 madnificent: Yes. I imagine that's the limit of your ability to reason critically. 02:31:01 Zhivago: yes it is, now please go away. 02:31:25 madnificent: No. 02:31:45 madnificent: just don't talk with Zhivago 02:31:46 Zhivago: you're missing compilermacro-functions, reader macros, CLOS, the MOP, and various other things. 02:32:05 stassats`: but it's so hard! he's telling things to people that don't know what's going on. he's like a giant zealot :( 02:32:19 madnificent: compiler macros are within the domain of macros. 02:32:26 no 02:32:28 The reader is, frankly, obsolete crap. 02:32:31 no 02:32:50 I mentioned the only interesting feature of CLOS remaining distinct. 02:33:00 MOPs aren't restricted to lisp, either. 02:33:23 Noctifer [~Noctifer@wrzb-4d005aa7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:43 lisp provides a nice package, but none of it is unique 02:34:10 There are some parts that are unique within the domain of popularish languages. 02:34:11 and i don't care about being unique or not 02:34:12 Zhivago: no, but have a look at OpenC++... 02:34:24 pjb: For what? 02:34:50 For a non-lisp restricted MOP :-) 02:34:54 madnificent: I suggest that you concentrate on not lying. 02:34:55 Once they get macros and s-expy syntax and other such, they'll *be* a lisp 02:35:01 pjb: Ah. Thanks. 02:35:13 what lisp provides that i care for? M-. into the compiler where i can redefine it on the fly 02:35:15 Zhivago: i'm doing my best do so, it's working! 02:35:33 madnificent: Keep telling yourself that. 02:35:49 perhaps maybe only smalltalk has such feature 02:36:06 "perhaps maybe", shows how sure i am 02:36:16 Zhivago: actually, (and i'm not flaming with this), have you read that article of Paul Graham in which he states that it's the whole of lisp what makes lisp lisp, not just any singular part of it? i'm honestly wondering 02:36:30 madnificent: Sure, but it's not true. 02:36:34 hba [~hba@187.171.194.59] has joined #lisp 02:36:46 madnificent: There are any number of details that don't matter. 02:36:55 Zhivago: please don't go into the details 02:37:11 madnificent: For example, does it matter that CL doesn't support recursive types? 02:37:17 sigh 02:37:23 Or, does it matter that it uses a readtable? 02:37:33 Would a lisp without a readtable be less of a lisp? 02:37:47 less confusing, that's for sure 02:37:54 You need to ask yourself these questions, if you would not be a mindless zealot. 02:38:06 the main problem with the readtable is that it's utterly non-modular 02:38:11 A lot of lisp is just things that were cheap and expedient at the time. 02:38:24 Many stupid people have enshrined them due to being idiots. 02:38:26 dlowe: named-readtables does a good job at solving this problem 02:38:38 Zhivago: i do ask myself those questions, but my answer seems to be different. i'm not thinking that lisp can't be made better. i'm thinking that without those features it's vastly less powerful. 02:38:54 stassats`: yeah, it's an improvement 02:39:15 powerful doesn't mean good, really 02:39:19 madnificent: How does the readtable make lisp vastly powerful? 02:39:38 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 02:40:15 steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 02:40:30 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA058A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:41:05 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-128-176.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:41:20 Zhivago: it allows you to express yourself in a way that wasn't previously possible. as with all other features. as your code needs to be understandable by both humans and computers, that's an important thing. to me, at least. 02:42:07 Zhivago: mind you, i'm not saying that it couldn't be better. i'm not stating that we shouldn't try to extend these things. i'm saying that removing them isn't necessarily a good idea. 02:42:13 perhaps i like choice too much. 02:42:30 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:42:40 -!- steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 02:42:50 you're pro-choice? 02:43:29 hah. 02:43:48 nighty-night guys. Don't fight too hard. 02:44:09 martixy, stay 02:44:11 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:14 stassats`: i'm pro my choice :) 02:44:28 madnificent: I think you overrate the value of custom reader syntaxit's handy, but it's not nearly as important as conventional macros, I think. 02:44:30 night martixy 02:44:43 As you appear to be a newcomer, martixy, what are you doing with lisp? 02:44:49 Ralith: i agree with you on that. but do you think we should remove it? 02:46:25 madnificent: I'm not sure I understand your question. The CL standard is static. 02:47:02 Ralith: yes ok. but say we'd build a different language, based on CL. would you then remove the custom reader? 02:47:02 make the reader non-upcasing and remove reader macros, i'd agree with that 02:47:41 stassats`: why remove reader macros? 02:47:54 madnificent: assuming infinite manpower, I'd remove it and replace it with something that provides a superset of its desirable features. 02:48:00 Not haveing reader macros seems to be working out fine for clojure, but I'd rather have them, I remember finding quite a few gems using them in old usenet threads 02:48:00 because i don't use them 02:48:05 stassats`: use scheme. 02:48:26 i'm not listening to pjb either 02:48:29 Ralith: i could accept that :) i wouldn't just want to drop it though 02:48:40 madnificent: assuming "just me" manpower, I'd trash reader macros and work on type system improvements instead. 02:48:48 patches welcome, though! 02:49:46 -!- chp [~user@c-68-45-180-238.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:50:00 madnificent: expanding on that, reader macros introduce a non-standard syntax which is confusing 02:50:17 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has left #lisp 02:50:29 instead of #$fEFdf i'd rather have (dollar-macro fEFdf) 02:50:38 madnificent: (for context, I am playing with building lispsand running hard up against the need to pick and choose what is worth my time) 02:50:39 but that'd need a reader that preserves case 02:51:12 stassats`: i disagree. in many cases it may be so, but in some cases the added expressivenes may make a particular domain easier to understand. 02:51:18 madnificent: The future of lisp requires discarding baggage of the past of lisp, if it is to have any future. 02:51:28 Ralith: it's cool though! 02:51:31 madnificent: do you use reader macros? 02:51:39 The reader doesn't add much, because it is actually a very poor mechanism for parsing. 02:51:50 madnificent: many things are cool. Most of them are cooler than reader macros. 02:52:02 wadexing_ [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has joined #lisp 02:52:02 There are relatively few grammars that it can handle in any meaningful sense. 02:52:20 stassats`: i've used them in local-time. and i've been thinking of using them for expressing json inline as that would make toying around for me personally a tad easier (but it's clearly dependent on the domain) 02:52:23 But, poor mechanisms are often cheap. 02:52:30 msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has joined #lisp 02:53:02 Ralith: but still, we have them, i'd prefer not to have them cut out. 02:53:32 madnificent: if you're building a new language, it's not "what should I cut out," it's "what should I port over" 02:53:38 i'd also remove symbol-plists 02:54:01 I'd be surprised to see anyone argue with that. 02:54:08 Ralith: i know, i've been toying with languages also :) 02:54:12 i wouldn't be 02:54:33 madnificent: to what end? 02:54:37 i'd also remove SETQ, now, that's easy 02:54:53 -!- wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:55:00 Kron_ [~Kron@CPE0013f7c06a42-CM0013f7c06a3e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:55:05 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@64.134.64.232] has joined #lisp 02:56:01 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@64.134.64.232] has quit [Client Quit] 02:56:02 Ralith: why i toyed with language construction? 02:56:08 yes 02:56:46 *Cosman246* is conlanging. Natural languages, mind you 02:56:52 a master thesis i wanted to do which then turned into an interest in prototype based object systems which then turned into another master thesis which i wanted to do. but i never did it. just a hobby 02:57:20 it all boils down to an interest in odd databases, i guess. i don't know 02:57:26 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@CPE0013f7c06a42-CM0013f7c06a3e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:57:34 stassats`: the whole symbols as boxes thing is a mistake 02:57:50 You're wanting scheme... 02:58:08 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.102.71.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:59:23 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.130.95] has quit [Quit: rme] 02:59:44 kpreid [~kpreid@72-255-18-157.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:47 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA058A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:06:43 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:13:43 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:17:58 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:18:09 -!- Noctifer [~Noctifer@wrzb-4d005aa7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:18:17 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:18:21 -!- martixy [martixy@78.90.38.181] has quit [] 03:18:37 -!- pavelpenev [~pavelludi@83.222.167.145] has quit [] 03:19:32 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:19:45 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:20:09 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 03:23:33 Taslem [40e9e315@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.233.227.21] has joined #lisp 03:24:53 Vicfred [~Futaba@189.228.22.247] has joined #lisp 03:26:01 So, I need help with emacs. 03:26:07 #emacs 03:26:17 with slime? 03:26:20 Kinda. 03:26:37 here you can ask questions about Slime 03:26:57 How can I get it to interpret a file I've saved? 03:27:10 C-c C-k 03:27:17 Taslem: M-x load-file RET file.el RET 03:27:47 Taslem: M-x eval-buffer RET too. 03:27:50 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:28:19 Taslem: don't listen to pjb, unless you're actually using Emacs Lisp, and not Common Lisp as you should 03:28:31 And how do I do that? 03:28:48 do what? 03:29:08 What am I supposed to do if I'm not listening to him? 03:29:14 C-c C-k 03:29:25 Taslem: do you need help with emacs or with Common Lisp? 03:29:35 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 03:29:36 Taslem: which means "open that file and press Control-c Control-k" 03:29:43 Help with emacs is given on #emacs... 03:30:01 What I need is a functioning Lisp interpreter. 03:30:10 M-x slime 03:30:11 emacs is a functionning lisp interpreter... 03:30:17 Taslem: for what Lisp? 03:30:24 Common Lisp. 03:30:28 Good. 03:30:28 Taslem: did you donwload the lisp cabinet? 03:30:33 Yes. 03:30:39 Then M-x slime RET should launch it, if it's well configured. 03:31:02 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Client Quit] 03:31:18 lisp cabinet launches to the slime REPL... 03:31:36 Yes. 03:31:42 I need to load source from file. 03:31:48 so 03:31:56 load it? 03:32:00 C-c C-l 03:32:16 in slime... 03:32:19 Taslem: i've already told you twice, use the C-c C-k keybinding 03:32:30 Undefined. 03:32:44 then you're not at the REPL. 03:32:45 Noctifer [~Noctifer@wrzb-4d005aa7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:45 where do you press it? in the repl? 03:32:59 Ralith: converse 03:33:16 C-c C-k doesn't work at the repl, it should be only used in a file 03:33:24 oh, he was replying to you 03:33:28 WHICH IS IT 03:33:36 C-c C-l works everywhere. 03:33:41 Taslem: PRESS C-C C-K AT THE FILE 03:33:50 how many times do we need to say it 03:33:54 Undefined. 03:34:06 Taslem: have you opened the file in emacs? 03:34:14 Yes. 03:34:16 Taslem: what extension does that file have? 03:34:24 None. 03:34:31 -!- csdserver [~csdserver@unaffiliated/csddesk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:34:31 it should be .lisp 03:34:37 rename it and open it again 03:36:22 Okay... 03:36:23 And? 03:36:36 and what? did you load it? 03:36:42 I opened it. 03:36:52 guess what? press the goddamn C-c C-k! 03:37:00 "Not Connected" 03:37:06 M-x slime 03:37:08 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:38:00 -!- hba [~hba@187.171.194.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:38:15 Which erases the stuff I've defined.... 03:38:37 it shows you a different buffer 03:38:41 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 03:39:06 switch to it by pressing C-x b 03:39:42 *stassats`* exercises his telepathic abilities 03:39:53 hba [~hba@189.130.178.126] has joined #lisp 03:40:49 -!- Taslem [40e9e315@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.233.227.21] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:42:03 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:15 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-128-176.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 03:45:53 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-92.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:46:32 alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-92.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:23 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:51:29 -!- jackhammer2022 is now known as jackhammer2022_A 03:57:24 como [~como@50.12.34.87] has joined #lisp 03:57:29 -!- jaminja [~jameen@unaffiliated/jaminja] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:57:30 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:58:03 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-2.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:58:38 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-2.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:59:03 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 04:00:07 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:13 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-182.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:00:27 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-182.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:02:05 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@96-32-136-249.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:05:17 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:10:30 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-48-83.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:00 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 04:16:04 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-rqasetygxlushqzn] has joined #lisp 04:16:04 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-rqasetygxlushqzn] has quit [Changing host] 04:16:04 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:16:31 Bacteria [~Bacteria@60-240-119-110.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:26:43 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:26:46 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-251-130-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:27:19 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 04:27:33 -!- jackhammer2022_A is now known as jackhammer2022 04:27:45 -!- pjb is now known as Guest27130 04:27:58 -!- Guest27130 is now known as pjb` 04:28:08 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 04:30:34 tensorpudding [~michael@99.102.71.62] has joined #lisp 04:35:29 Bacteria_ [~Bacteria@60-240-119-110.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:35:35 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:37:24 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-154-202.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:24 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-154-202.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:37:24 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 04:38:38 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@60-240-119-110.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:39:01 csdserver [~csdserver@unaffiliated/csddesk] has joined #lisp 04:41:57 -!- Bacteria_ [~Bacteria@60-240-119-110.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:52:09 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc1-midd16-2-0-cust160.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:52:22 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:52:46 stassats`: I think you were looking for UPDATE-INSTANCE-FOR-REDEFINED-CLASS earlier... 04:53:01 instance? i don't think so 04:53:25 I'm pretty sure REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE on a class calls that... 04:53:46 i'm pretty sure that's not what i was asking for 04:54:02 What were you looking for exactly, already?... 04:54:13 i'm not looking for anything anymore 04:54:26 Ah. Time to go to bed, then. 04:54:31 and i was looking for compute-slots 04:54:47 Ok. Cya. 04:54:48 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 04:58:43 felideon [~user@weston-69.65.92.95.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:30 -!- nialo`` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:01:54 -!- beslyrus [~Brucio-12@adsl-99-49-14-228.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:02:28 Bacteria [~Bacteria@60-240-119-110.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:11:03 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:11:46 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:12:40 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:18:38 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl13-208-204.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:20:23 slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 05:26:49 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.102.71.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:27:58 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@cpe-74-64-122-182.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:28:29 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 05:29:37 -!- ISF_ec09 [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:29:59 ISF_ec09_ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 05:30:05 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-thookjvuijucyddn] has joined #lisp 05:30:05 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-thookjvuijucyddn] has quit [Changing host] 05:30:05 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:30:44 -!- ISF_ec09_ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:31:22 ISF_ec09_ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 05:33:28 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@60-240-119-110.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:38:49 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:40:27 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:44:14 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@64.134.188.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:55:55 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:56:58 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:57:52 -!- felideon [~user@weston-69.65.92.95.myacc.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:58:39 waveman [~tim@203-214-39-56.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:07:55 -!- ISF_ec09_ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:09:24 -!- jackhammer2022 [~textual@c-76-119-13-121.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:10:15 -!- bobzhang [~user@66.250.143.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:11:35 -!- daimrod [~daimrod@sbrk.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:11:46 daimrod [~daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 06:12:10 -!- wadexing_ [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:14:09 Bacteria [~Bacteria@60-240-119-110.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:17:09 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:17:27 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:22:09 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:23:29 wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has joined #lisp 06:27:01 otakutom_ [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:27:24 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:27:33 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 06:28:33 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@CPE0013f7c06a42-CM0013f7c06a3e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 06:32:19 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: totzeit] 06:33:51 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:34:05 -!- otakutom_ [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:40:29 jackhammer2022 [~textual@c-76-119-13-121.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:26 -!- NihilistDandy [~NihilistD@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:46:11 NihilistDandy [~NihilistD@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:18 -!- bieber [~quassel@162-78.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:51:42 -!- Vicfred [~Futaba@189.228.22.247] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:52:15 Yuuhi [benni@p5483AB52.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:07 dtw- [~dtw@dsl-roibrasgw1-fe84fb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:57:59 -!- wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:58:39 ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:28 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-54.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:07:53 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.186.58] has joined #lisp 07:10:43 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:11:06 -!- linmin_ [~linmin@180.168.30.174] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:11:32 linmin_ [~linmin@180.168.30.174] has joined #lisp 07:11:46 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 07:20:28 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:22:15 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA25BA7.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:26:33 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:26:48 -!- hba [~hba@189.130.178.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:31:02 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:47 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:11 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@60-240-119-110.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 07:32:26 jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has joined #lisp 07:46:10 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:46:34 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:45 nostoi [~nostoi@18.Red-79-153-125.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:45 -!- como [~como@50.12.34.87] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:00:21 Cosman246 [~cosman246@64.134.188.7] has joined #lisp 08:01:06 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:03:47 ISF_ec09_ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 08:03:59 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:07:44 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@18.Red-79-153-125.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:07:57 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 08:09:15 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:12:49 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:17:05 Does anybody know where's the new Robert Strandh's homepage? 08:17:28 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:29 Seems like his labri one went away.. 08:21:34 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.24.124] has joined #lisp 08:21:54 Also, I can't remember what was the name of his partial CL-in-CL implementation. 08:27:15 sicl 08:27:51 deepfire: http://common-lisp.net/project/sicl/ 08:28:04 Ah, right, thank you! 08:28:49 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.24.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:29:13 I have come to appreciate it as a quite important project. 08:30:27 _pw_ [~user@123.112.71.135] has joined #lisp 08:31:24 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has joined #lisp 08:31:36 kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 08:33:02 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:33:08 deepfire: Why? (I haven't used it yet, although I have been planning to.) 08:34:40 aerique, it simplifies experimentation with CL implementation 08:35:54 ISF_ec09__ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 08:37:57 For example, I find LOOP and FORMAT boring : -) 08:38:37 ..in contrast with the long form of DEFINE-METHOD-COMBINATION. 08:38:45 -!- ISF_ec09_ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:39:27 ngz [~user@23.78.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:52 -!- jackhammer2022 [~textual@c-76-119-13-121.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 08:39:57 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:40:53 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has joined #lisp 08:40:55 heidymadia [~saasten@fm-ip-61.247.42.167.fast.net.id] has joined #lisp 08:42:14 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:42:43 tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:44 I wonder what's up with Robert, he last spoke in April. 08:48:43 ..and the last time he was on IRC was in July. 08:49:40 I wonder if he was at the ECLM 2011. 08:50:55 gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.24.124] has joined #lisp 08:52:42 aerique, he was registered, according to http://eclm.eurolisp.org/ 08:52:58 Whether he was present is a different question.. 08:54:43 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:59:58 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:03:23 Hrr, I wanted wget to archive the snapshot of his labri homepage from archive.org, but cannot seem to be able to convince neither curl nor wget to ignore robots.txt 09:08:19 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.119.24.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:17:51 slash_ [~unknown@p54A8D420.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:22 deepfire: robots = off in your ~/.wgetrc 09:19:02 tcr [~tcr@95-88-46-7-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:19:29 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:20:36 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:25:34 Dodek, thank you! 09:25:49 It's strange that I couldn't find it on the manpage.. 09:28:07 web.archive.org/web/20071024083428/http:/dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/, for anyone interested.. 09:28:23 His psychology essay I've enjoyed a lot. 09:36:03 zmyrgel [~user@dsl-lprbrasgw1-fe91fa00-218.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:39:17 araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has joined #lisp 09:39:17 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has quit [Changing host] 09:39:17 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 09:41:10 hi 09:42:44 flip214: hi 09:43:01 Posterdati: JMP $ 09:43:27 flip214: jmp $fce2 09:43:28 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 09:45:57 flip214: please help: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126721 09:46:28 what's the problem? the warning? 09:46:39 flip214: conductor-center only takes last loop k value 09:46:44 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:47:56 yeah, you always push the same objest 09:47:59 *object 09:48:21 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 09:48:26 but I change the conductor-center slot 09:49:07 Posterdati: http://paste.lisp.org/+2PS1/1 09:49:33 yes, but the object is still at the same address - and push only pushes the address, so you get the same object n times on the list 09:49:55 aah 09:50:00 that's clear now 09:50:12 it's true 09:50:27 thanks 09:50:28 look at my annotation: for my-conductor = (make-conductor) ... collect my-conductor 09:50:55 you created a new conductor at every loop 09:51:16 yes 09:51:26 yes 09:51:49 I used (setf my-conductor (make-conductor)) 09:51:57 but isn't working 09:53:28 could loop clause be used to assign winding variable? 09:53:51 (setf winding (loop ...)) 09:54:05 so winding points to collected values 09:54:12 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-102-93.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 09:54:16 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:56:47 Posterdati: if (loop) has an (collect), these values are returned. 09:57:01 ok 09:57:26 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p54A8D420.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:57:30 or you can give them a name (LOOP ... COLLECT item INTO my-list-name FINALLY (return (CONS "posterdati" my-list-name))) etc 09:57:50 ok 09:57:52 thanks 09:58:20 but read the documentation ... or, what I'd suggest, read ITERATE - that's a bit better, and nearly compatible. 09:58:36 and the next step would be re-iterate ;) but that's not a big jump then anymore 10:00:49 anveshan [~anveshan@122.166.10.26] has joined #lisp 10:03:23 flip214: "do" should go after the second for? 10:03:44 in LOOP, DO should precede each non-LOOP keyword ... 10:04:05 but really, look at ITERATE - it uses the same keywords, but is much saner 10:05:05 ok 10:05:11 iterate's in ql? 10:07:29 _everything_ is in ql ;) 10:07:37 even reiterate 10:07:46 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 10:08:58 even Jesus 10:09:10 *kilon* quickloads Jesus 10:09:34 sorry, not in my distribution list 10:09:53 :D 10:10:05 neither buddha, zeus, or some others that I remembered 10:10:35 you have not added "Divine" repo , thats why 10:12:08 (ql:quickload "beautiful-blonde-girls") 10:13:38 Posterdati: can these do text-to-speech? hmmm, even if they could, it'd be slower for the "open parenthesis, quote ITERATE, close parenthesis" etc 10:14:34 sure, but not in sexp 10:15:30 ah, I meant speech-to-text, so that they'd type for me 10:16:20 not only 10:16:54 they can perorm very enjoyable things other that typing 10:19:03 Posterdati: I won't ask for pictures 10:19:21 no only sexp expressions 10:22:29 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.2.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:22:39 I believe the correct name is "S-expression" ... sexp has the asking -p at the end, which shouldn't be necessary if you've quickloaded anyway 10:23:06 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-54.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:23:14 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1214.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.1] 10:23:30 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-54.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:24:02 flip214: your code gave me an error 10:24:20 well, your too - it was only a snippet, so I couldn't test 10:24:25 *yours 10:24:34 what's the message? 10:24:50 benny [~benny@i577A23E3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:24:54 wait 10:25:36 flip214: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126721#2 10:25:37 :) 10:25:48 glad to be of service, master 10:26:07 lol 10:26:08 (SETF PHI (- (* K GAMMA) GAMMA0)) found where LOOP keyword expected 10:26:08 ; current LOOP context: FOR MY-CONDUCTOR = (MAKE-CONDUCTOR) (SETF PHI 10:26:09 thanks 10:26:20 ok 10:26:21 FOR MY-CONDUCTOR = (MAKE-CONDUCTOR) 10:26:25 DO (SETF ... ) 10:26:41 ok, it then complains about collect after do 10:26:54 as I said, earlier today: in LOOP, DO should precede each non-LOOP keyword ... 10:27:00 but really, look at ITERATE - it uses the same keywords, but is much saner 10:27:31 ok ok 10:27:32 thanks 10:30:14 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-128-176.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:45:15 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:45:54 daniel_ [~daniel@p508292B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:21 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p50829B13.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:47:25 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl5-196-71.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 10:49:43 osa1 [~sinan@78.179.137.143] has joined #lisp 10:51:36 -!- ISF_ec09__ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 10:52:11 ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 10:54:22 -!- msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has quit [Quit: msponge] 10:56:17 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:01:35 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:01:56 -!- osa1 [~sinan@78.179.137.143] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:03:47 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-yjyqhnzttdmddinr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:07:09 -!- heidymadia [~saasten@fm-ip-61.247.42.167.fast.net.id] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:08:04 slash_ [~unknown@p54A8D420.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:05 rswarbrick [~rswarbric@cl-1290.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:11 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:11:45 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:16:44 wingie [~wingie@c-5eeaaa34-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 11:16:52 is lisp still widely used? 11:18:05 flip214: the strange thing is that make-conductor didn't create a new different object, so I've to do two loops 11:18:44 wingie: yes, count people here 11:19:05 wingie: widely and wildly 11:19:13 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p54A8D420.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:19:14 wingie: TIOBE ranks it in 13th position ---> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html 11:19:24 dont know if that is a good or bad thing :D 11:19:26 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:20:04 Posterdati: paste, please ... do you use WITH my-conductor = (make-conductor ...)? that would be only once 11:20:18 Posterdati: for what type of programs is it used? 11:20:26 wingie, Common Lisp, Emacs Lisp and Scheme are the usual dialects. 11:20:36 wingie, Common Lisp is a general 11:20:41 -purpose language. 11:20:46 wingie: from script to large ai programs 11:20:53 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 11:21:09 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.186.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:21:12 wingie: some people use scheme like guile for scripting (see gEDA) 11:21:14 clojure is influenced by lisp too 11:21:27 wingie: and it's not, not at all, limited to ai 11:21:28 its not used that much for web app backend right? 11:21:31 ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 11:21:46 flip214: no I didn't use WITH clause 11:21:54 wingie: lisp is often used for web apps, it's a blast! 11:22:32 i only hear dynamical languages like ruby/php/python/node.js being used the most in backend 11:22:53 wingie, Lisps are dynamic languages. 11:23:29 i Lisp a specification or is it an implementation? 11:23:32 is 11:23:41 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:23:46 wingie: common lisp is a specification with multiple implementations 11:23:53 wingie: there's an ansi standard 11:24:13 wingie: what is the motivation behind your questions? 11:24:44 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:24:56 im a node.js developer that recently (today) stumbled upon functional programming .. and it seems powerful 11:25:30 no side effects, caching ready, good for concurrency, reusability etc 11:25:51 nialo`` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:54 wingie: imagine that eye-opener you had now. multiply it by a thousand, and you have the experience you'll have when learning lisp. lisp is multi-paradigm, it encourages functional programming but doesn't require you to do so. 11:26:28 madnificent: could you do OOP with it? 11:27:03 wingie: we have arguably one of the most advanced OO systems used in the wild. 11:27:38 wingie: including, but not limited to, multiple inheritance and metaclasses... if thaht rings a bell 11:27:39 madnificent: so if i was to choose a functional programming lang .. which one of clojure and lisp should i choose and why? 11:27:46 wingie, "Features of Common Lisp" http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html 11:27:48 it does 11:27:57 you should use lisp because this channel talks about lisp and not clojure 11:28:33 wingie: i'm too biased against clojure for various reasons. i find it to have no reason for existence. someone else should answer that question. 11:29:08 okay another quick question ... javascript supports first class citizen functions 11:29:23 wingie: we had them in 1970, we have them now. 11:29:24 could js be used as a functional programming lang? 11:29:46 corni [~corni@2001:67c:20a1:1030:ea9a:8fff:febf:7356] has joined #lisp 11:29:46 -!- corni [~corni@2001:67c:20a1:1030:ea9a:8fff:febf:7356] has quit [Changing host] 11:29:46 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 11:29:57 wingie: most languages support functional programming to some extent. you can use a functional programming style in javascript. 11:30:00 wingie: the question is, could js be used as a programming language? 11:30:17 Posterdati: don't mock js, it's a sane language. just don't compare it to lisp. 11:30:38 madnificent: why not c or c++ then? 11:30:50 madnificent: I mean why program js? 11:30:58 Posterdati: since it could be used in the browsers too 11:31:06 one code everywhere 11:31:09 -!- Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:31:23 lisp is not a pure functional language, some even argue that it is not a functional language at all (as far as sideeffect free programming is concerned) 11:31:33 wingie: that's the same using a standard language 11:31:48 what do you men? 11:31:49 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 11:31:50 mean 11:32:07 Posterdati: i like the prototyped objects and the first class functions. i dislike js less than C or C++. i can't say that i have a very solid reasoning on it, but it feels better to me personally. perhaps because it's somewhat more flexible... 11:32:34 madnificent: respect c or c++? 11:32:54 madnificent: what are your thoughts on CoffeeScript if I may ask? 11:33:05 Quadresce [~quadbook@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 11:33:39 madnificent: I don't like web oriented languages 11:34:03 Posterdati: its not web oriented 11:34:23 Why not compare javascript to lisp? 11:34:44 lisps are traditionally procedural languages. 11:34:45 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:34:56 But they do support a functional style of programming well. 11:34:56 wingie: i can live with CoffeeScript just as i can live with javascript. if i have to code in it for money, i'll do it. 11:34:57 the web env provides globals like window, but there is no such variable on server side (node.js) 11:35:20 Posterdati: javascript is about as web oriented as ruby 11:35:42 madnificent: would you then use CS or JS to code? 11:35:43 madnificent: but it's heavily used in web apps 11:36:15 Posterdati: though i do understand the confusion. i don't think the language should be judged on its most common use. in the same lines, do you find it correct that lisp is judged as an ai language? 11:36:45 wingie: i use lisp in roughly everything i do, sorry 11:36:58 wingie: You can get a dom environment like that in node.js. 11:37:02 madnificent: no... But it was created to code ai algorithm 11:37:04 wingie: if i'd have to choose i'd pick what the customer wants :) 11:37:12 wingie: But why is it relevant? 11:38:03 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:11 madnificent: so why choose a particular language for particular jobs? 11:38:26 madnificent: could I exchange javascript with Lisp? 11:38:31 setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.190] has joined #lisp 11:38:40 Zhivago: its not, was just claryfiying that its not a web oritenred language 11:39:14 thanks for the info all .. functional programming seems really interesting 11:39:16 Posterdati: not exactly. i studied the subject of the discovery of lisp shortly and it seemed more that J. McCarthy wanted a more expressive language and that he would _use_ it in the domain of AI. 11:39:18 i have to read more abut it 11:39:46 Frankly, javascript is much like lisp as originally envisaged. 11:40:07 it seems like to be able to create AI you have to do functional programming 11:40:10 Posterdati: because that's what people know and what corporate tells them... sorry, i find it odd that you are in this channel and are asking those questions. not trying to flame with that statement, i find it a tad strange. 11:40:21 wingie: Nonsense. Most AI these days is applied statistics. 11:40:30 Zhivago: it's a scheme with an algol syntax bolted on. and that gave a tad of a mismatch. 11:40:44 madnificent: strange? 11:40:49 ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 11:40:59 madnificent: don't worry 11:41:04 madnificent: More or less -- much as lisp was originally envisioned. 11:41:05 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:41:17 McCarthy never wanted s-exps. 11:41:33 Zhivago: i meant how will you create an AI 11:41:46 wingie: What is 'an AI'? 11:41:52 wingie: no, not really. but look at it like this: if you have a really complex problem and you need to figure out how to solve it still. then you'd want to have as much programming support as possible. and lisp provides you with that to a large extent. i think such support is useful in any application you write. 11:41:57 you have to code it somehow with something ... perhaps functional programming is the only way to create AI 11:42:00 articial intelligence 11:42:15 wingie: Except that we know that functional and procedural languages are equivalent. 11:42:24 wingie: So, that's obviously false. 11:42:26 Posterdati: well, why do you use lisp yourself then? it's rarely the most popular language for a specific domain. you have to choose it for its features alse. 11:42:33 s/alse/also/ 11:42:54 billions of billions of isolated functions that are passed to each other 11:43:05 wingie: What are you talking about? 11:43:06 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 11:43:15 madnificent: I found it strongly math oriented and general purpose language respect c or c++ 11:43:44 madnificent: yeah 11:43:47 madnificent: look at acl2 is Lisp! 11:43:50 Zhivago: never mind 11:44:03 wingie: ai is a very broad field. it uses various concepts, not all are directly related to functional programming. but functional programming tends to help in implementing many of the algorithms 11:44:08 If only c could handle basic arithmetic ... 11:44:17 Posterdati: sorry, could you elaborate on teh acl2 thing? 11:44:24 JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 11:44:46 Zhivago: it's funny 'cause it's true 11:45:25 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 11:49:11 madnificent: I mean why don't use a language like javascript, c or c++ to write a theorem testing software? 11:49:20 sec 11:49:29 poster: There's no particular reason not to use javascript for it. 11:49:55 Except perhaps for fashion or concerns over embarassment. 11:49:56 spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-111-48.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:50:08 Zhivago: that's the point, fashion 11:50:13 possibly that writing a cl language translator was also more productive 11:50:54 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-71-129-61-74.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 11:51:12 Zhivago: I think that is a tools related problem. I mean probably Lisp is richer than any other languages 11:51:20 they could take advantage of existing compilers, as well as symbolic programming for translation 11:51:35 posterdati: You're probably confusing CL with Visual Basic, I suspect. 11:51:47 Or maybe C++ as used by microsoft. 11:52:11 Zhivago: I never programmed in VisualBasic I don't even know what is it 11:52:34 Well, I suspect it has more tools than CL does. 11:53:04 Zhivago: sorry, but I meant as basic language 11:54:56 I suspect that it all boils down to people being irrational in both directions. 11:55:07 Irrationally avoiding lisp and irrationally using it. 11:55:09 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:56:12 Zhivago: I think it depends on final application 11:57:16 Zhivago: and several other stuffs 11:57:19 hi, I'm having a bit of trouble with constants 11:57:37 functions like map(), reduce(), filter() seems to be of essence in a functional programming style .. is it because you don't want to alter an array? 11:57:40 When compiling my code I get "variable is unbound" error for some reason 11:57:53 wingie: No. It's because of composition. 11:58:23 but I have "(define-constant +foo+ '(1 2))" specified at the start of my source file 11:59:29 I'm using the define-constant from alexandria to avoid re-evaluation errors of plain defconstant forms in sbcl 11:59:43 zmyrgel: how are you using the variable? 12:00:29 Posterdati: i wouldn't do it because the constructs i can build in lisp lie closer to my reasoning than those in other languages. insert statement about turing completenes here 12:00:47 eMBee: what do you mean? 12:01:22 madnificent: ok 12:02:00 madnificent: I found it true in my humble case too 12:02:03 wingie: perhaps not essential, but they help :) 12:02:20 eMBee: here's the source: http://wickedbsd.net/~zmyrgel/tursas/engine.lisp 12:02:31 wingie: in general lisp uses linked lists instead of arrays (but we have awesome support for arrays too) 12:02:31 I got error from +cecp-supported-features+ variable 12:02:36 madnificent: yeah haha 12:02:43 especially in couchdb (map-reduce views) 12:03:01 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl5-196-71.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:04:37 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-59-64.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:05:14 zmyrgel: can you paste the error? 12:05:56 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:06:53 eMBee: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126724 12:06:57 steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:07:32 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-49-216.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:08:15 slash_ [~unknown@p54A8D420.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:33 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-224-202.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:44 flip214: please look! http://paste.lisp.org/display/126721#3 12:10:10 add^_ [~add^_^@h169n4c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:21 flip214: you don't want to know the answer... 12:10:24 zmyrgel: hpw are you loading alexandria? 12:10:28 with my-conductor = (make-instance 'conductor) 12:10:37 only a single instance that gets pushed again and again? 12:11:01 flip214: ok, so only the last survive 12:11:31 flip214: but why for my-conductor = (make-conductor) won't work? 12:12:03 don't know ... do you have some example for me that I can actually run, instead of dry reasoning? 12:12:22 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl13-192-233.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 12:12:46 ah, wait. 12:12:56 eMBee: all the code is in http://wickedbsd.net/~zmyrgel/tursas 12:13:09 its in the package.lisp 12:13:18 flip214: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126721#4 12:13:27 flip214: can you run it? 12:13:45 flip214: (setf *winding* (generate-winding-distribution 10 #(0d0 1d0) 5e-4 1e-4 25e-3 "ciao")) 12:14:12 Posterdati: http://paste.lisp.org/+2PS1/5 12:14:37 please try that, I'll take a look at yours ;) 12:16:00 zmyrgel: i am guessing the problem is that you are calling (define-constant) but you should call (alexandria:define-constant) 12:17:14 wouldn't the error then be "undefined function define-constant" ? 12:17:14 -!- alek_b [~alek_b@99-10-120-63.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:46 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:17:48 eMBee: and shouldn't the :import-from import all exported symbols to package? 12:18:09 it shouldn't 12:19:30 Posterdati: that's what you want? http://paste.lisp.org/+2PS1/6 12:19:34 ah, mistake. Wouldn't (:import-from :alexandria :define-constant) import the define-constant to my package? 12:20:01 was thinking my previous (:use :alexandria) line in package.lisp 12:20:41 -!- tcr [~tcr@95-88-46-7-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:21:13 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 12:21:18 zmyrgel: it would 12:22:37 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128006030.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 12:23:56 ISF__ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 12:26:24 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-46-191.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 12:27:56 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:28:54 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-190-237-51.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:29:23 cnl [~cnl@95.106.65.176] has joined #lisp 12:29:27 zmyrgel: if i use alexandria:define-constant in your code it works 12:29:55 yep, noticed I omitted it from the list in package.lisp 12:31:03 ok 12:31:29 -!- waveman [~tim@203-214-39-56.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:32:45 zmyrgel: what is tursas about? 12:33:02 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 12:33:13 eMBee: its a chess engine 12:33:23 ah 12:33:52 what license is the code? 12:34:01 I did my thesis on it, well clojure version of tursas. Now learning lisp by porting it to CL. 12:34:10 ISC 12:34:47 should put the license text to every file so it would be clearer 12:34:57 isc? 12:35:07 Internet Software Consortium 12:35:18 They make a dhcp daemon and other software 12:35:55 odd, you'd think that would be the first hit on google 12:36:35 or do you mean internet systems consortium? isc.org? 12:37:14 zmyrgel: how different is the cl code from clojure? 12:37:35 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-92.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:37:37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISC_license 12:37:49 -!- Quadresce [~quadbook@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:37:52 a thanks 12:38:16 eMBee: pretty different, lazyness is pretty absent in CL 12:38:49 eMBee: heres the original tursas in clojure: https://github.com/zmyrgel/tursas 12:40:54 *eMBee* is taking a look,thanks 12:41:19 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-48-83.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:44:14 -!- steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: quit?] 12:45:07 zmyrgel: I supply my own laziness to my CL code 12:45:30 stassats`: how? 12:45:46 i refuse to do things i don't want to! 12:46:02 lol 12:46:46 heresy package seems to have lazy functions but 'idiomatic 12:46:54 darn enter... 12:47:20 'idiomatic' cl code doesn't seem to be using laziness as its used in clojure 12:47:25 danishman [~kvirc@0x5da0ec2a.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.ronnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:48:47 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:48:47 -!- nialo`` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:48:47 -!- kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:48:47 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:48:47 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:48:47 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-198-255-25.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:50:04 tcr [~tcr@95-88-46-7-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:50:33 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:04 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 12:51:39 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 12:51:45 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Quit: !] 12:52:20 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:52:59 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 12:54:31 kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 12:54:57 alvis [~alvis@tx-184-5-64-92.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:19 Xach: I'm using it on linux 12:55:25 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-198-255-25.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:39 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 13:00:55 -!- csdserver [~csdserver@unaffiliated/csddesk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:01:28 flip214: thanks you! Solved! 13:01:42 welcome 13:01:45 flip214: sys 6 4 7 3 8 13:01:56 ?SYNTAX ERROR 13:02:05 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p54A8D420.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:02:07 READY 13:02:29 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:02:36 flip214: let's write something in c64 lisp 13:07:31 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:08:17 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 13:10:54 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-251-130-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:15:44 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@229.Red-88-6-236.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:23 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-111-48.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 13:32:15 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@72-255-18-157.client.stsn.net] has quit [Quit: Offline] 13:32:27 -!- tcr [~tcr@95-88-46-7-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:33:41 tensorpudding [~michael@99.102.71.62] has joined #lisp 13:34:05 mrcarrot [~lasse@unaffiliated/mrcarrot] has joined #lisp 13:34:07 -!- mrcarrot [~lasse@unaffiliated/mrcarrot] has left #lisp 13:34:15 mrcarrot [~lasse@unaffiliated/mrcarrot] has joined #lisp 13:34:18 -!- mrcarrot [~lasse@unaffiliated/mrcarrot] has left #lisp 13:35:22 urandom__ [~user@p548A261E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:10 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.90] has joined #lisp 13:39:27 tcr [~tcr@95-88-46-7-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:42:04 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-251-130-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:42:43 what is the best package to draw figures like circles squares and so on? 13:42:53 Posterdati: draw them on what? 13:43:01 -!- Shapeshifter [~Shapeshif@unaffiliated/shapeshifter] has left #lisp 13:43:14 Xach: in a window or svg 13:45:15 Xach: I'm using cl-plplot but it renders 2d/3d plots not figures 13:47:38 -!- Noctifer [~Noctifer@wrzb-4d005aa7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 3.6.24/20111107173218]] 13:48:08 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 13:48:22 Posterdati: postscript 13:51:09 flip214: cl-svg 13:51:22 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:54:37 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:00:11 -!- X-Scale [email@89.180.131.223] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:05 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:14 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:15 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:08:17 velov [~velov@91.207.42.52] has joined #lisp 14:10:03 spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-111-48.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:10:03 -!- anveshan [~anveshan@122.166.10.26] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:10:16 anveshan [~anveshan@122.166.10.26] has joined #lisp 14:11:30 _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.46.165] has joined #lisp 14:16:57 -!- wingie [~wingie@c-5eeaaa34-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has left #lisp 14:17:55 bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 14:18:29 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:18:49 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:20:11 kpal [~kpal@46-252-118-54.sibtele.com] has joined #lisp 14:20:23 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 14:21:32 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 14:24:31 -!- velov [~velov@91.207.42.52] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:24:44 velov [~velov@91.207.42.52] has joined #lisp 14:24:49 -!- jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has quit [] 14:26:33 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:26:42 -!- tcr [~tcr@95-88-46-7-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:28:33 got any ideas for a lisp tattoo? 14:28:40 -!- zmyrgel [~user@dsl-lprbrasgw1-fe91fa00-218.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #lisp 14:29:03 I have symbol on my mind. 14:29:42 *symbol lambda 14:29:53 (lambda (f) (lambda (x) (f x))) 14:30:17 newbie here.. what does this function do? 14:30:29 call itself.. infinitely 14:31:40 it creates (f x) 14:32:16 and f again creates (f x).. am i right? 14:34:11 Nope 14:35:18 Cosman246: Not in Common Lisp. 14:35:58 anveshan: PROUD MEMBER OF STEELE'S ARMY 14:36:34 phryk [~phryk@yggdrasil.phryk.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:49 Xach: d'oh 14:36:50 steele who? 14:37:08 Steele Bank 14:37:29 GLS, the chairman of X3J13 and creator of Scheme 14:37:46 Guy Lewis Steele Jr. 14:37:52 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:38:58 Xach: noted!thanks. 14:40:10 Cosman246: please explain the function 14:40:49 No, I don't think it works in CL 14:40:55 I know it works in Scheme, though 14:41:05 (I mean 14:41:16 it probably does *something*, but not what I intended) 14:41:25 I am starting with MIT-Scheme 14:42:07 xach: steele bank? 14:42:08 In CL, it brings an error 14:42:36 because of the Lisp-1 Lisp-2 stuff 14:42:45 in pure lambda calculus it translates to "lambda (f) f)" 14:43:00 *(lambda (f) f) 14:43:13 Here's how to fix it 14:43:44 (lambda (f) (lambda (x) (list f x))) 14:43:47 Ta-da 14:43:53 doesn't do much, does it 14:44:27 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:45:22 (lambda (f) (lambda (x) (funcall f x))) ; You probably mean this. 14:46:16 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 14:46:39 dtw-:that also works 14:47:37 rudi_ [~rudi@1x-193-157-205-216.uio.no] has joined #lisp 14:48:21 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:48:33 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@cpe-74-64-122-182.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: RomyEatsDrupal] 14:48:52 I have to admit, anveshan, relative to many here, I am still a grasshopper 14:48:54 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:49:43 akovalenko [~akovalenk@95.73.53.61] has joined #lisp 14:51:06 -!- rudi_ is now known as rudi 14:51:23 xach what is the connection of guy steele to bank? 14:52:47 slash_ [~unknown@p54A8D420.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:07 eMBee: the "Steel" in Steel Bank Common Lisp is similar but unrelated to the "Steele" in Guy Steele? 14:54:23 yes 14:54:30 eMBee: there you go. 14:55:17 well, i was wondering if that is what xach meant 14:56:10 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:56:12 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:56:24 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 14:56:54 jergason [~jergason@dsl-173-248-193-83.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:14 hello friends 14:57:21 I am reading through the Land of Lisp book 14:57:38 and have come upon the discussion of `lambda` 14:58:16 why would you use `flet` or `labels` instead of `lambda`? 14:58:36 jergason: if you want to use the function multiple times. 14:59:38 ehu: you can't call the result of a lambda function multiple times? 14:59:46 jergason, FLET and LABELS create local, named functions. LAMBDA creates just the function object which is not stored anywhere. 14:59:52 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:00:12 you can use it if you assign it to a variable 15:00:13 jergason, the result of LAMBDA can obviously be stored in a variable and then called with FUNCALL or APPLY etc. 15:01:29 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 15:01:34 am0c [~am0c@58.227.209.54] has joined #lisp 15:01:41 with flet you don't need funcall 15:01:49 felideon [~user@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:41 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-63-146.lns1.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 15:04:07 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-46-191.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:04:41 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 15:04:49 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:09:51 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-54.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:19 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@cpe-74-64-122-182.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:57 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 15:15:07 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p54A8D420.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:18:31 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@173.239.83.225] has joined #lisp 15:20:39 Kron_ [~Kron@CPE0013f7c06a42-CM0013f7c06a3e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:22:17 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:22:29 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:22:44 tcr [~tcr@95-88-46-7-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:24:32 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Quit: ircII EPIC4-2.10 -- Are we there yet?] 15:26:08 -!- nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:27:27 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 15:31:04 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:34:28 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 15:34:28 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 15:35:15 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 15:35:22 Greetings lispers 15:36:13 aloha 15:36:14 bobzhang [~user@vpl556.wireless-pennnet.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 15:36:40 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:37:12 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-2.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:37:24 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-2.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:37:39 xach: i have managed to hack l1sp.org code into something that will display a text version of the first url found in the repl 15:38:04 I wonder if anyone's tried to write a MUD in lisp. It's not something I'm attempting to do right now, I'm just a bit curious 15:38:42 -!- kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:38:42 I've written a couple 15:38:44 i think there are a few at least 15:38:51 Hm 15:38:56 How would they handle TELNET? 15:39:06 same way as any other language 15:39:09 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:39:18 *Cosman246* needs to learn moar about TELNET 15:39:25 -!- sellout [~Adium@pool-98-114-58-126.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:39:46 I would discourage people from writing more muds, though 15:39:49 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.129.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 15:40:04 dlowe: why? 15:40:28 Cosman246: the potential players haven't been there for years 15:40:29 any mud that's public? 15:40:40 dlowe: I'm one.... 15:40:45 or code available? 15:41:03 eMBee: I have a public mud, but it's not in CL 15:41:35 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-2.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:41:35 in which language? 15:41:35 can I print all fields of class instance without redefinition of print-object for this class? 15:41:47 eMBee: it's in C. I inherited it about ten years ago 15:42:02 I have a mostly complete CL version, but I stopped working on it 15:42:26 dehun: you can inspect it if you want to look at it for debugging 15:42:26 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:42:39 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 15:42:40 in the cl version can users or wizards build rooms? 15:42:52 eMBee: er, sure 15:43:01 dlowe: yes. this is for debugging purpose. can you suggest which function should i call? 15:43:15 dehun: if you're using slime, use M-x slime-inspect 15:43:31 otherwise you can (cl:inspect ) 15:43:34 dehun: use the mop to get at class, slot names + contents etc. of objects 15:43:39 dlowe: using what mechanism? would they write lisp? 15:43:39 dlowe: can I see the cl mud? 15:43:40 dlowe: thanks. this helps =) 15:43:55 Kron [~Kron@CPE0013f7c06a42-CM0013f7c06a3e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:44:01 rudi: mop? 15:44:20 meta-object protocol; google "lisp mop" 15:44:21 -!- Kron is now known as Guest88383 15:44:29 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:41 eMBee: oh, no. it's all data 15:44:48 Cosman246: it looks just the same as the C mud 15:45:29 anyway, mudding discussion should probably be in #lispgames 15:45:33 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:45:56 ok, i have been wondering how to build a server that can be extended by users adding their own code 15:46:11 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-2.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:46:34 but your mud is not doing that... 15:46:56 eMBee: look up LPC 15:47:04 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@CPE0013f7c06a42-CM0013f7c06a3e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:47:28 What are some good telnet libs for CL? 15:47:28 erm, i meant i have been wondering how to do that in lisp 15:47:29 steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:47:30 eMBee: you make a driver that compiles/executes a custom language 15:47:40 RomyEatsDrupal_ [~stickycak@dyn-160-39-33-144.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:47:52 eMBee: you really don't want to give others the capability to modify the base image :) 15:48:32 in theory you could run a lisp in a vm, but it seems like quite a bit of overhead 15:48:58 no, no. you compile your custom language into controlled CL, and thence into machine language 15:49:17 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-205-216.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 15:49:34 dlowe: IPC with a sandboxed lisp sounds interesting ;) 15:49:37 cl-javascript would probably work for that 15:49:58 but this assumes you don't want to write CL 15:50:17 or rewrite CL :P 15:50:20 sellout [~Adium@pool-98-114-58-126.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:43 but making a custom language that feels like CL sounds like a lot of work 15:50:52 exactly 15:50:56 oh noes! work! 15:51:04 heh 15:51:04 dlowe: redundant work 15:51:09 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@cpe-74-64-122-182.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:51:24 you've got a perfectly working CL already 15:51:30 -!- RomyEatsDrupal_ is now known as RomyEatsDrupal 15:51:31 not necessarily. I can see someone making a cl-cl for sandboxing 15:51:32 eMBee: You just need to parse and transform. There are libraries that readily facilitate that. 15:51:50 well, there is this cl-in-cl project 15:52:07 actually this is one place where having a CL "on the metal" would be nice .. boot it directly in a VM .. though a minimal linux kernel probably wouldn't be much worse 15:52:20 oGMo: do you really want builders to be able to signal a condition that brings the whole mud to a halt? 15:52:21 ThomasH: but i need to track what things are allowed in the input and what not 15:52:35 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:35 dlowe: of course you _don't_, but false dichotomy 15:52:55 eMBee: Isn't that the definition of a parser? 15:52:56 it's not. It's a single example of how allowing access to the underlying CL is inviting disaster 15:53:02 OgMo: movitz 15:53:02 what you want is to be able to run untrusted code in an isolated environment without a lot of overhead 15:53:14 oh, is THAT all 15:53:16 lol 15:53:17 s/OgMo/oGMo. 15:53:31 good luck with that 15:53:31 s/./\// 15:53:53 oGMo: I can rewrite random bits of the GC with machine code from my lisp image. Try and isolate that without writing your own language. 15:54:20 ThomasH: sure, i meant in reference to this being a lot of work, if the custom language matches CL 15:54:37 Otherwise, you might find the interpreter in arnesi useful. 15:54:51 pkhuong: right, but if you run a separate VM, you don't have to worry so much, though running a separate lisp might not be "low overhead" 15:55:12 if untrusted code blows itself up, it doesn't matter as long as it doesn't blow anything else up 15:55:17 -!- kpal [~kpal@46-252-118-54.sibtele.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:55:23 oGMo: what kind of overhead? performance? It's a MUD, ffs. 15:55:29 http://common-lisp.net/project/lmud/ 15:55:47 Toy muds are trivial to make 15:55:52 Not trolling, legitimate question: Can you use python, ruby, etc. in this manner, providing access to a controlled subset of the language? 15:55:56 pkhuong: mostly ram, though ram is cheapish .. separate vm for every user who wants to write code 15:56:05 -!- danishman [~kvirc@0x5da0ec2a.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.ronnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:56:20 ThomasH: no 15:56:22 eMBee: You don't want to match CL, just provide enough functionality to make it useful for your users. 15:56:51 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:04 ThomasH: AFAIK, nothing in python and an unofficial hack in ruby that may or may not work anymore. 15:57:08 ThomasH: true 15:57:14 whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-juttpexuuwxeohyi] has joined #lisp 15:57:14 dlowe: Thanks, thought so, but this question arises so frequently on #lisp that I was beginning to think you could. 15:57:36 ruby has $SAFE, but you probably shouldn't trust it 15:57:47 I note that lmud is 8 years dead 15:58:31 it's a lot harder to restrict CL than ruby, though .. most javascript VMs are rather easy to restrict, though, being minimal to begin with 15:58:57 is "$SAFE" supposed to be a deprecation of the price system? 15:59:00 eMBee: I'm a meta-sexp shill. -> http://www.cliki.net/meta-sexp 15:59:49 eMBee: So, you could use that to fairly easily parse/validate and transform your DSL into CL, then pass it to the reader. 16:00:20 that said the idea of being able to spin off small VMs to run untrusted code has really grown on me .. VMs are pretty performant and today's machines have a lot of ram 16:01:31 there is also: cl-user.net/asp/libs/bmud 16:01:52 bmud seems to be alive: http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/lmud-devel/2011-October/000019.html 16:03:23 ThomasH: looking 16:06:05 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 16:06:24 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:08:42 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:08:50 RomyEatsDrupal_ [~stickycak@cpe-74-64-122-182.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:45 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:10:05 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@dyn-160-39-33-144.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:10:06 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:10:06 -!- RomyEatsDrupal_ is now known as RomyEatsDrupal 16:10:26 msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has joined #lisp 16:12:57 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:15:29 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:18:50 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:19:08 Cosman246: I guess what I'm saying is... if you want to start a mud, you don't write a codebase, you pick a codebase and build a team 16:22:41 m6502 [~user@31.25.101.47] has joined #lisp 16:25:09 ISF_ec09 [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 16:27:41 -!- ISF__ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:35:29 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@180.172.46.165] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:36:55 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-111-48.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 16:40:15 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128006030.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:48:00 Kapsi-G [~chrispaok@ppp046176081133.dsl.hol.gr] has joined #lisp 16:48:00 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:06 -!- Kapsi-G [~chrispaok@ppp046176081133.dsl.hol.gr] has left #lisp 16:49:02 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:49:02 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-54.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:51:02 Nauntilus [~Benji@wsip-68-14-222-194.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:14 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:51:40 RomyEatsDrupal_ [~stickycak@dyn-160-39-33-144.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 16:52:03 setmeaway [setmeaway@119.201.52.190] has joined #lisp 16:52:20 -!- Nauntilus [~Benji@wsip-68-14-222-194.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:56 Nauntilus [~Benji@wsip-68-14-222-194.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:24 tcr1 [~tcr@95-88-46-7-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:53:27 -!- bobzhang [~user@vpl556.wireless-pennnet.upenn.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:54:03 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:54:09 -!- tcr [~tcr@95-88-46-7-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:54:40 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-161.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:54:40 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-161.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:55:09 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@cpe-74-64-122-182.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:55:21 -!- RomyEatsDrupal_ is now known as RomyEatsDrupal 16:56:53 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-2.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:57:55 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-2.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:06:36 -!- am0c [~am0c@58.227.209.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:07:26 -!- jergason [~jergason@dsl-173-248-193-83.acanac.net] has quit [Quit: jergason] 17:07:51 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-161.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:07:59 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-161.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:08:32 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 17:08:38 dabd_ [~dabd@185.116.166.178.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 17:10:58 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-161.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:13:49 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:14:42 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-161.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:15:52 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 17:16:19 zophy [~zophy@host-5-150-220-24.midco.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:10 -!- felideon [~user@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:26:36 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:28:34 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:28:42 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-63-146.lns1.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:29:31 RomyEatsDrupal_ [~stickycak@cpe-74-64-122-182.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:32:22 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@dyn-160-39-33-144.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:32:22 -!- RomyEatsDrupal_ is now known as RomyEatsDrupal 17:32:40 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@cpe-74-64-122-182.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:32:45 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:38:05 okflo [~okflo@93-82-153-42.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:38:20 hi lispers ): 17:38:35 anyone out there, having experience with manardb? 17:40:47 -!- dtw- [~dtw@dsl-roibrasgw1-fe84fb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: ...] 17:44:27 -!- velov [~velov@91.207.42.52] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:45:05 prolly no one but the developer at this point okflo 17:46:08 okflo: haven't ventured that far in LISP yet but i have heard bknr-datastore mentioned here, is it that different from manardb? 17:46:16 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 17:46:36 spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-111-48.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:46:52 yes, apparently 17:46:58 i am looking for an alternative to clsql/postmodern, and manardb looks interesting - a there are no real examples or usecases... 17:47:47 bobzhang [~user@vpl556.wireless-pennnet.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 17:47:49 JuanDaugherty: yes, one of the next object-stores I'll evaluate, thanx 17:48:42 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 17:52:13 I'd backup one level and look at the database entries in cliki, there's more proven stuff there 17:52:50 in the OS group I liked de.setf best 17:56:12 I rather like allegrocache (: 17:57:25 but then, I also like postmodern (: 17:58:33 -!- bobzhang [~user@vpl556.wireless-pennnet.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:00:59 rme [~rme@50.43.130.95] has joined #lisp 18:01:07 rosario [~rosario@fsf/member/rosario] has joined #lisp 18:06:50 -!- rosario [~rosario@fsf/member/rosario] has quit [Quit: Bye] 18:12:12 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.82.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:13:18 lemoinem [~swoog@133-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:15 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:20:11 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:20:17 -!- steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: quit?] 18:21:02 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@95-88-46-7-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:21:08 -!- dabd_ [~dabd@185.116.166.178.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:29:56 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:31:01 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:32:02 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@229.Red-88-6-236.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:33:31 felideon [~user@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:05 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-71-129-61-74.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:38 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 18:41:51 okflo: similarly to those, there's bknr.datastore. 18:42:11 okflo: or bknr-datastore, it's in quicklisp under the right name 18:43:05 okflo: if the author is on freenode, he tends to use the nickname cmell, iirc. but i haven't seen him around for quite some time. 18:43:07 -!- Guest88383 [~Kron@CPE0013f7c06a42-CM0013f7c06a3e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:46:38 phax [~phax@adsl-68-73-150-63.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:38 -!- phax [~phax@adsl-68-73-150-63.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:46:38 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 18:47:06 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:47:23 kr [~kr@cotb-d9ba9aae.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:03 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Client Quit] 18:49:35 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 18:51:58 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 18:52:25 dtw- [~dtw@dsl-roibrasgw1-fe84fb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:54:36 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-102-93.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:16 kr_ [~kr@cotb-4db323cf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:08 -!- kr [~kr@cotb-d9ba9aae.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:00:32 -!- dtw- is now known as dtw 19:00:42 -!- kr_ [~kr@cotb-4db323cf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:01:14 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@79.Red-88-7-134.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:12 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:15:44 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 19:15:47 bobzhang [~user@vpl556.wireless-pennnet.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 19:19:09 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:21 -!- bobzhang [~user@vpl556.wireless-pennnet.upenn.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 19:21:58 Kron_ [~Kron@CPE0013f7c06a42-CM0013f7c06a3e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:46 kpreid [~kpreid@pool-96-242-142-128.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:51 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:30:39 pnq [~nick@AC817D03.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:39:20 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:35 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:41:41 -!- ISF_ec09 [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:48:45 -!- BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has quit [Quit: Talk is cheap because the supply exceeds the demand.] 19:51:05 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-71-129-61-74.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 19:54:25 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@79.Red-88-7-134.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 19:55:29 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:56 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:58 okflo: ROFL may also be worth checking out. 20:03:37 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-251-130-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:05:49 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:07:15 -!- pnq [~nick@AC817D03.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:16:29 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:17:18 -!- NihilistDandy [~NihilistD@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 20:19:23 -!- H4ns [hans@netzhansa.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:19:38 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 20:20:24 EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 20:21:08 -!- dtw [~dtw@dsl-roibrasgw1-fe84fb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:21:12 -!- CallToPower [~CallToPow@calltopower.org] has left #lisp 20:22:51 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-128-176.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:23:40 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-36-144.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:25:02 jergason [~jergason@dsl-173-248-193-83.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:23 -!- jergason [~jergason@dsl-173-248-193-83.acanac.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:25:52 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-36-144.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 20:27:07 pavelpenev [~pavelludi@83.222.167.145] has joined #lisp 20:30:02 -!- m6502 [~user@31.25.101.47] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:37:16 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A261E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:38:26 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-152-91.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 20:38:52 -!- msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has quit [Quit: msponge] 20:38:56 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:38:59 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:59 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:39:08 OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 20:40:42 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-222.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:36 -!- sellout [~Adium@pool-98-114-58-126.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:45:23 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@79.Red-88-7-134.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:57 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-251-130-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:46:52 Noctifer [~Noctifer@wrzb-4d005aa7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:01 timack [~timack@hlfx62-1-137.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 20:49:55 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:50:47 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.102.71.62] has quit [Quit: tensorpudding] 20:58:22 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:58:23 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:01:11 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:03 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:26 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:22 marsell [~marsell@120.18.225.182] has joined #lisp 21:11:19 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.167.145] has joined #lisp 21:11:49 -!- pavelpenev [~pavelludi@83.222.167.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:15:27 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 21:17:35 H4ns [~H4ns@46.115.16.132] has joined #lisp 21:17:52 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl13-192-233.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 21:19:29 tensorpudding [~michael@99.102.71.62] has joined #lisp 21:23:53 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@31.163.209.25] has joined #lisp 21:25:37 -!- H4ns [~H4ns@46.115.16.132] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 21:30:26 wingie [~wingie@c-5eeaaa34-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 21:30:37 can't it be said that functional programming and oop is different abstraction layers .. fp is low level (micro) and oop is an higher abstraction (macro). oop is using fp in the same way objects in this world is bound by the law of nature. so its just a matter of what level you wanna work on? And a stateful object (human) is not a function that runs and exits .. but runs and never exits (til its destroyed) 21:30:38 why it never leaves its state and thus is stateful. Thoughts? 21:31:29 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:33:00 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.225.182] has quit [Quit: marsell] 21:33:51 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@pool-96-242-142-128.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Offline] 21:34:15 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:11 wingie: I don't agree. Objects are a way to organize data, functional programming is a way to organize logic. I can apply functional programming using immutable objects. I think the concepts are somewhat orthogonal. 21:35:42 wingie: Of course, the lines between the concepts are never distinct. 21:35:49 -!- timack [~timack@hlfx62-1-137.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:36:11 ThomasH: good explaination .. never thought of that 21:36:39 but that seems to be the nature's way of doing it too 21:36:52 eg. the law of the nature is all about logic 21:36:56 math 21:37:05 kpreid [~kpreid@pool-96-242-142-128.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:24 in higher level we have objects that are separated as individual data 21:37:31 person, cat etc 21:37:43 the same explanation of yours 21:38:32 and a person is "created" by the laws of nature 21:39:15 in the same way i think objects are created by pure functions (in an ideal lang) 21:40:40 I think if you view objects in that way, you've missed the point of object-oriented programming 21:42:59 no .. that was just a quick example i made up 21:43:44 I wasn't talking about the example 21:44:54 snearch [~snearch@g231105173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:45:00 dlowe: Yes, I realize that functions apply to specific objects. So, objects are not just a mechanism for organizing data. I think what I was trying to emphasize was that there is there is no contradiction between objects and functional programming. 21:45:37 ThomasH: I disagree. 21:46:07 well, no. I think you're comparing unlike things, so there is naturally no contradiction 21:46:28 there's a huge contradiction between object-oriented and functional programming 21:46:49 That's actually exactly the same thing: an object is a closure. 21:47:01 a closure can model an object 21:47:29 but that's not the same thing as viewing a program as a collection of message-passing objects 21:51:28 so fp and oop is on the same level? you choose how you wanna organize your code/data? 21:51:33 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:51:37 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@31.163.209.25] has quit [Quit:    ] 21:52:00 -!- prip [~foo@host26-132-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:52:49 prip [~foo@host244-130-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:53:25 they're just methods of reducing problems to computable subsets 21:53:26 dlowe: scheme disagrees. 21:55:01 pkhuong: scheme only has a hammer, so everything looks like a nail :) 21:55:15 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.46.11.173] has joined #lisp 21:55:46 dlowe: interesting point of view, but very ahistorical. 21:55:46 anyway, a closure is a more general beast than an object 21:56:32 dlowe: continuations model message passing, and it's more because continuations can be procedures that closures model objects. 21:56:42 Of course, now I'm off looking at the Haskell and OCaml websites and I see that Haskell now has "The Haskell Platform". Looks interesting. 21:57:20 ThomasH: and ocaml with batteries or something like that. This is a good trend. 21:57:31 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 21:58:02 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:58:27 pkhuong: Yeah, my excuses for not learning these languages are rapidly disappearing. 21:58:42 sellout [~Adium@pool-98-114-58-126.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:08 -!- sellout is now known as Guest40008 21:59:11 pkhuong: not very naturally 22:00:15 wingie: the problem with OO is that not all functionality is bound to any particular data, but involves multiple data objects 22:00:31 the basic example is colliding some physics object against a wall 22:00:42 should that function be on the wall object or on the moving object? 22:00:49 s/function/method/ 22:01:09 I hope you realize that this isn't a problem decent OO systems have. 22:01:11 dlowe: the strawman you set up with closures isn't what scheme's original model of message passing is about. 22:01:17 and then there are issues with inheritance, where not all functionality fits nicely with a heirarchical model 22:01:25 pkhuong: I didn't set it up :p 22:01:45 Ralith: decent as in message-passing? 22:02:02 Phoodus: as in multiple-dispatch 22:02:09 right 22:02:21 I'm talking about the "functionality lives in an object" OO model 22:02:28 pnq [~nick@ACA303C3.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:02:31 as I think wingie is 22:02:32 that's a dumb model 22:02:46 Ralith: thx 22:02:51 even without multiple dispatch, you have an object representing the space that the object and the wall are contained in 22:03:00 and the collision is handled in that 22:03:00 right, some "environent" object 22:03:10 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:21 but then that must snoop into the objects it contains, instead of letting the functionality on that object handle its own information 22:03:42 visitor pattern (: 22:03:45 meaning some objects have self-contained behaviors, and others are either data containers or subservient 22:03:54 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:04:00 visitor = snooper ;) 22:04:32 mason [~user@wsip-98-189-9-189.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:37 in any case, it's just the most basic picture for wingie to show the limitations of common OO thinking/design 22:05:08 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:13 hey, I never said it was a good idea 22:05:44 though I used to be a fan 22:05:49 same here 22:06:00 OO actually does make sense in a lot of simple data-driven cases 22:06:02 Phoodus: the pragmatic in me says that's an argument for double dispatch, not full-blown multiple dispatch (: 22:06:10 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-148-246.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:22 but as complexity increases, OO hurts more than helps 22:06:31 ("common" OO again, not CLOS stuff) 22:07:08 and then you end up with J2EE :) 22:07:15 honestly, though, try as I might, I don't feel that comfortable storing data in closures. Dinosaur thinking, I guess :/ 22:07:34 I absolutely loathe what Lambda Over Lisp style has done to our code base, and we've been ripping it out 22:07:35 storing mutable data in closures is a sin 22:07:46 Phoodus: Let over Lambda? 22:08:01 but purely because you can't introspect it, nor can you issue hot-updates to the functionality 22:08:11 the book 22:08:19 oh man 22:08:19 erm, yeah, s/Lisp/Lambda/ 22:08:24 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.46.11.173] has quit [Quit:    ] 22:08:36 why do we always toss people who didn't read the book! ? 22:08:50 lol 22:08:53 Phoodus: Lambda over Lambda? 22:08:54 Phoodus: but wouldn't oop fit for games where we have objects (soldier, grenade, gun etc) 22:09:01 kinda fits the mind 22:09:03 Land of Lambda over Lisp 22:09:10 dlowe: One of my first exercises in CL was simulating the motion of magnetic spheres on a plane. I used closures at the time because that was the concept I was learning. I dread looking back at that code. 22:09:32 wingie: depends on how complex the interactions get 22:09:57 Most games, at their base, are pretty simple. 22:09:58 and again at an introductory/simple point, tying simple behaviors to specific objects is useful 22:10:58 It can get complicated, though. On a mud, when a creature takes something, what decides the outcome? 22:11:00 -!- snearch [~snearch@g231105173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:11:35 the playwriter! 22:11:52 The creature has to be able to see it, so the darkness in the room has a say. The creature has to be able to move, the object has to be takable, not too heavy, not too large 22:11:59 dlowe: good one .. so who decides it? =) 22:12:04 the object might be intelligent and not want to be picked up 22:12:12 lol 22:12:17 wingie: it's always kluged :( 22:12:23 like a hopping away burger ?! 22:12:26 wahahahaha 22:12:44 this is why declarative specifications and a general resolver are more desirable than trying to bake in comparisons inline to the behavior 22:12:54 trying to do that without snooping the insides of everything is just about impossible 22:12:57 the situation throws information into the resolver 22:13:09 an "official snooper" :) 22:13:10 which can prioritize based on whatever rules it has set up 22:13:23 designated snooper, even 22:13:38 and that is why data should just be data, then "snooping" is not an issue :) 22:13:41 dlowe: would fp be more suitable for the mud example? 22:13:55 wingie: I doubt it. 22:13:57 because nothing is privately "owned" by object-specific codde 22:14:02 programming, motherfucker. 22:14:09 What I like about CL is that I don't have to get the data structures correct up-front. I can start with very sloppy data structures that let me focus on actually performing the calculation. Then revise once things are working at which point the data organization become more evident. 22:14:39 redefinable classes in CLOS are a definite win 22:14:43 ThomasH: and the fact that you don't have to move code in & out of object specifications is actually a significant part of that, compared to something like Java 22:15:14 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@pool-96-242-142-128.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Offline] 22:16:07 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-169-183.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:16:38 Phoodus: Definitely, I've moved slots from one level of the class hierarchy to another without changing a single method. 22:17:12 I rarely use classes anymore, just defstructs 22:17:27 but that also might be an effect of my domain 22:17:36 Phoodus: stinks when you have to add/remove slots 22:17:45 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.167.145] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:18:12 yeah, I tend to cycle the lisp a lot during development 22:18:21 but when I test it's standalone launched anyway 22:18:34 so lots of transient invocations of the environment anyway 22:18:54 phax [~phax@adsl-68-73-150-63.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:54 -!- phax [~phax@adsl-68-73-150-63.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:18:54 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 22:19:29 pavelpenev [~pavelludi@83.222.167.145] has joined #lisp 22:21:26 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-111-48.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 22:22:04 I need to figure out some nice projects that aren't games. I'm in a game rut. 22:22:56 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h169n4c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: add^_] 22:23:38 -!- Noctifer [~Noctifer@wrzb-4d005aa7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:24:07 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:28:33 dlowe: how about an airfare pricing/shopping application 22:32:25 urandom__ [~user@p548A213C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:46 felideon: I don't do that in my free time :p 22:36:56 what ever happened to work-life 'integration'?! 22:36:56 write object expiration and bulk delete support for zs3 22:36:59 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:40:13 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c20e0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:08 hi 22:41:46 actually, picking up local-time again would probably be good 22:41:52 finish that alternative calendar support :p 22:42:31 ethiopian calender, for example? 22:42:50 Julian is the one most people seem to be interested in 22:43:02 but yeah, whatever 22:43:17 No! 22:43:21 French Republican! 22:43:31 Vive la Revolucion! 22:43:40 yes, it's extensible. Bring Your Own Calendar 22:43:42 (OK, that's probably horrible French) 22:44:06 Revolución is Spanish. R' 22:44:13 Revolución is Spanish. Révolution is French. 22:44:17 Ah 22:44:25 it'd be interesting to have conversions between julian and Hijri and Hebrew calendars. 22:44:36 Still, French Republican is the way to go 22:44:52 Brumaine in Sidney... 22:44:55 Brumaire in Sidney... 22:45:21 Today is 8 Nivôse An 220 de la Révolution 22:45:47 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128065027.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 22:46:35 Hey prxq 22:47:35 hi ThomasH 22:51:04 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@79.Red-88-7-134.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 22:52:42 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #lisp 22:52:58 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 22:54:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-54.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:54:29 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-87-152-91.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:55:44 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:56:43 http://abstrusegoose.com/323 22:57:35 I bet the same applies to LISP :-) 22:58:48 cpape [~user@cpape.eu] has joined #lisp 22:58:58 I *hope* the same applies to LISp 22:58:59 *LISP 22:59:09 The replacement for LISP will be LISP 22:59:39 --as soon as they hack together all of its unique advantages, they'll just get it back 23:01:34 -!- markskilbeck [~Mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 23:02:00 Cosman246: Common lisp was designed in the 80's, standartized in the 90's, hasn't been updated in 16 years, yet i still managed to whip out a simple web app in a few hours today using it with very little pain. Common Lisp has aged extremely well. 23:02:36 Indeed 23:02:48 Are there any efforts to update the standard? 23:03:05 -!- davlap [~davlap@c-24-147-211-14.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:03:17 sbryant: yes, of the futile kind. 23:03:39 which means, no, actually not 23:03:39 Is this effort documented anywhere? 23:04:00 there was some action a few years ago on CLtL3 23:04:05 sbryant: google for cltl3 23:04:05 martixy [martixy@78.90.38.181] has joined #lisp 23:04:10 but it didn't go anywhere. 23:04:17 [mid-air collision] 23:04:21 does anybody have any idea what kind of funds would be needed in order for such an attempt to not be futile? 23:04:42 i don't think it is mostly a money problem 23:04:49 updating an ANSI spec involves non-trivial cash, above and beyond all the political issues associated with it. 23:05:07 pavelpenev: That'd take between 6 and 12 man-year I'd say. 23:05:36 thanks for all the explanation about oop vs fp 23:05:37 anyone know of a way to make a nice constant typed simple-array without using make-array? 23:05:38 good night people 23:05:38 getting the political ducks lined up to even begin an update would be a seriously onerous undertaking. 23:05:44 and pretty much everybody would be telling you that it is a wasted effort. 23:05:54 -!- wingie [~wingie@c-5eeaaa34-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has left #lisp 23:06:12 dlowe: using map, perhaps? 23:06:19 or coerce 23:06:37 -!- Nauntilus [~Benji@wsip-68-14-222-194.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:06:58 first thing I tried. (coerce #(0 1 2 3) '(simple-array (unsigned-byte 16) *)) doesn't seem to work on sbcl 23:07:14 Bah! No need for a standard. If you have an idea for a revision of CL, implement it as a layer on top of CL. See if it catches on and go from there. 23:07:36 ThomasH: most of the software world has come to your same conclusion 23:08:08 ThomasH: Like ASDF 23:08:09 dlowe: (*) perhaps 23:08:17 tcr [~tcr@95-88-46-7-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 23:08:21 or even (4) 23:08:28 ...and were surprised how rarely changes catch on 23:08:47 ThomasH: or start your own religion^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H lisp dialect 23:08:49 well, I'll be damned. Thanks, Xach 23:08:55 dlowe: exactly. I don't understand this fixation with the standard. On one hand, it is nice that I can reasonably run code that is 2+ decades old. On the other hand, there is no reason a standard should hold back research and development of a revision. 23:08:58 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:09:28 the real question is, which research and development of a revision is it holding back? 23:09:30 the standard actually assumes that the language would evolve 23:09:33 ThomasH: because having different implementations of the same language has some benefit 23:10:19 ThomasH: I've looked at a bit of MACLisp, and much of it seems compatible, so more like 4 decades old 23:10:27 and if you look at the contents of sb-ext and alexandria, it has to an extent. 23:11:26 About the only thing that I would like is for consistent use of generic functions so that I would be able to write methods for LENGTH, VECTOR, etc. 23:11:34 Cosman246: It only looks compatible, there are a lot of subtle differences, like the difference between compiled and interpreted code, in the former you have static scope, in the latter you have dynamic by default, IIRC 23:11:40 But, that is easily accomplished with shadowing. 23:11:57 Except, it makes exporting those symbols a pain. 23:11:58 it'd be nice if CL had call/cc built in. 23:12:14 some form of STM, too. 23:12:51 but mostly it's already general enough that I almost never hit a wall defined by the language. 23:13:57 pavelpenev: I believe it's lexical, not static. I'm sure you could still run it 23:14:02 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:14:14 ThomasH: there is the conduits package by tfeb that can help with that. At least, that's what I hear, but I keep banging my head against the defpackage and don't do anything about it. 23:14:29 Pitman wrote a guide about older lisps and CL, http://maclisp.info/pitmanual/cl-conv-01-intr.html 23:14:56 Cosman246: I doubth any non-trivial amount of code would run without modification. 23:14:58 Fade: Pitman argues rather convincingly that call/cc interferes in bad ways with the condition system 23:15:13 Yeah, I read that. 23:15:23 CallToPower [~CallToPow@calltopower.org] has joined #lisp 23:15:29 although some time ago. 23:15:42 prxq: Thanks for reminding me of tfeb, I forget to check that site for things. 23:15:43 superficially, it isn't clear to me why the condition system couldn't be built in terms of call/cc 23:16:53 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@133-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:14 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.69.230] has joined #lisp 23:17:25 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 23:18:01 -!- CallToPower [~CallToPow@calltopower.org] has left #lisp 23:19:21 Fade: you could, I think, but then nobody should be allowed to use call/cc anymore, otherwise very strange control flows could occur. 23:19:22 -!- okflo [~okflo@93-82-153-42.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has left #lisp 23:19:55 well, CL isn't a Fischer Price(c)[tm] language... 23:19:57 strange as in undesired, and nonsensical. Anyway, that is what I remember. 23:20:01 it gives us the rope to hang ourselves. 23:20:25 so to that extent, I think call/cc fits right in. 23:20:35 prxq: Have you tried to use conduits? 23:20:49 but pitman is both more experienced and smarter than me, so I shoul probably go back and reread. 23:21:19 Fade: yes, but it's not a live-wires-in-the-gunpowder-magazine kind of language. 23:21:37 ThomasH: no, never. 23:23:33 ThomasH: I've been intending to for quite a while. 23:23:45 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA303C3.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:24:58 prxq: I have 2 initial observations: (1) I wish it was defconduit instead of shadowing defpackage and (2) it looks capable of generating obscure and hard to identify errors. 23:26:16 prxq: That said, I have a semi-working, semi-updated version of the Weyl Computer algebra substrate that would benefit from something like conduits. It has a wicked set of shadowed symbols. 23:26:17 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:27:24 one thing I'd update in the spec is to make the reader a bit more flexible 23:27:34 but I know that's been discussed to death & back too 23:27:40 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.167.145] has joined #lisp 23:28:08 -!- pavelpenev [~pavelludi@83.222.167.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:28:19 I'd also like to see options to reduce the footprint by having well-defined subsets of the standard 23:28:22 *Xach* has often thought about that in the context of read/load as a library 23:28:40 -!- pavelludiq is now known as pavelpenev 23:28:53 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 23:29:07 Phoodus: every time you use defpackage you have an opportunity to define a well-defined subset of the standanrd... 23:29:07 -!- Guest40008 is now known as sellout 23:29:52 pjb: defpackage doesn't help eliminate what's already there, for footprint purposes, unless you're talking about redefining builtin packages 23:30:15 who cares about footprint? 23:30:25 use on portable devices 23:31:03 ThomasH: I have some automatic differentiation stuff that shadows quite a bit of stuff too. 23:31:54 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:31:55 but as i said i never get around to look at conduits, because in the few occasions I actually would need it, I go the copy and paste route. 23:32:02 plus, I'd want a way to change the floating-point converting operators (like trig functions in sbcl) to return the default read float format instead of just always single-float, when given non-floating point inputs 23:32:18 Phoodus: portable devices will be full of bloat before long 23:32:21 *Phoodus* forgets the formal term for tha conversion 23:32:54 prxq: it's also useful when running multiple lisp processes. 45MB per just at baseline eats away quickly at 1GB total 23:32:56 yah, having double to be the default float format would have been nice, too 23:33:49 Phoodus: that must be a netbook! ;) 23:34:20 *Phoodus* has a fetish for lots of low-power ARMs, even though it's not really feasible now 23:34:25 my old netbook has mor eRAM than that 23:34:37 and by the time it is, I'm sure many GBs on such a system will be common 23:34:46 it'd be nice to run o nthe raspberry pi, though, which only has a few hundred megs 23:34:52 but still, the lisp runtime tends to be pretty heavyweight; options to strip it down would be nice 23:35:11 that's what scheme is for, I think. 23:35:19 yeah, but that's a different language 23:35:27 And clisp is also a lot more nimble 23:36:11 or maybe rather small instead of nimble 23:36:47 being able to disable rationals & complex numbers would remove some gotchas in simple situations :) 23:37:16 Phoodus: like type inference for (sqrt x)? 23:37:18 but those are rarely hit; not a big deal 23:38:18 yeah, (sqrt -1) or (acos 15) would raise a condition instead of return complex; (/ 13 17) would return the default float format 23:38:29 of course as an opt-in behavior 23:38:45 could be done with shadowing, if really needed 23:38:55 true 23:39:02 but where it matters, speed generally matters, too 23:39:26 you can also achieve what you want using declare statments 23:39:28 so it'd be nice for the primitive operations to be aware of such options 23:39:38 right 23:39:40 at least in sbcl 23:40:50 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 23:42:47 -!- JuniorRoy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:43:30 is there a lisp builtin to convert a single character to the number it represents in a certain radix? 23:43:50 or should i use parse-integer 23:44:18 (parse-integer (string ch)) 23:45:17 yeah, that's what i did now. it didn't feel pretty. especially as i assumed the character variant would exist also 23:45:22 the worst misfeature of CL is the funny look people give you when you say you use it :-) 23:45:23 thanks though 23:45:36 s/people/many people/ 23:45:40 What's wrong with (- (char-code #\1) 48) 23:45:42 ? 23:45:43 prxq: looks like a bug to me ;-) 23:45:44 madnificent: then write (char-digit ch) ; (defun char-digit (ch) (parse-integer (string ch))) 23:45:49 ThomasH: it's not guaranteed to work 23:46:21 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128065027.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:46:26 pjb: yeah, it's ok. i was just thinking that the character version would exist also. so it felt dirty to create a string just for the character. 23:47:09 madnificent: Is there no guarantee of ordering? i.e. (- (char-code #\3) (char-code #\0)) 23:47:12 ThomasH: ie, it will not work in a characterset in which the numbers don't have a consecutive number :) 23:47:21 ThomasH: nope 23:47:30 madnificent: Ok. 23:47:42 ThomasH: but it will work in all charactersets i know :) the C boys survived on it for ages ;-) 23:49:00 ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 23:49:57 madnificent: In CL, I just assume ASCII and plow on fat, dumb, and happy. 23:50:16 the C (cow)boys generally deride such subtlety :-) 23:50:42 ThomasH: you never encounter utf8? 23:50:59 I just assume unicode for chars 23:51:18 (defun char-digit (ch) (position ch "0123456789")) works everywhere. 23:51:33 if i can follow the spec, then i know i'm doing something smarter than what i could figure out 23:51:44 i just assume it will work, and usually get away with it. 23:52:02 digit-char-p 23:55:57 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]