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240 seconds] 02:43:15 heidymadia [~saasten@61.247.42.167] has joined #lisp 02:43:19 -!- agumonkey [agumonkey@8.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:43:28 does DECLAIM affect the compiler henceforth after it's used, or is it only restricted to the current file, or what? I am looking at the standard and it is unclear, but it seems to affect anything after, even outside the current compilation unit. 02:44:21 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.135.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:48:03 brendn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:48:38 SlayersZ [~SlayersZ@70.65.233.0] has joined #lisp 02:48:42 evening xD 02:48:59 teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has joined #lisp 02:50:28 duomo [~duomo@cpe-67-248-14-24.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:52:12 Qworkescence: DECLAIM is like (eval-when (...) (proclaim ...)). While it's unspecified if compile-time side effect persists between compilation units, load-time side effect *is* persistent (proclaim affects global environment) 02:56:09 akovalenko, Thanks for the information. Then I guess LOCALLY can guarantee that the effects are contained. 02:56:15 yes 02:57:44 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 02:59:15 xD 03:04:12 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:04:38 -!- brendn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:05:06 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 03:11:10 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 03:12:05 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 03:18:48 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177890505.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:19:38 brendn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:20:44 Can a function take an argument (that is quoted) and then defparameter that argument? Example: (defun foo (x) (defparameter x 0)), and then call (foo '*y*) to make a global variable named *y*. Or should I use a macro for that? 03:20:49 -!- wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:21:31 wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has joined #lisp 03:24:48 -!- iwillig [~ivan@66.209.120.98] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:25:14 ravster: how do you expect defparameter to be able to tell whether you want to define a variable named x or named by the value of x? 03:26:53 -!- jsoft_ [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:26:56 wouldn't the variable be named x since i'm sending the function (quote x)? 03:28:01 antgreen [~user@70.50.66.55] has joined #lisp 03:31:10 -!- chenbing [~user@122.233.180.9] has left #lisp 03:31:25 chenbing [~user@122.233.180.9] has joined #lisp 03:31:35 ravster: Perhaps you want a macro? 03:35:37 Yeah, I think I'll just go with that. thanks. 03:36:50 Spion_ [~spion@77.28.242.55] has joined #lisp 03:36:52 -!- Spion_ [~spion@77.28.242.55] has quit [Changing host] 03:36:52 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] 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[~xyxu@58.41.1.128] has joined #lisp 06:35:18 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-012-184.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:37:12 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 06:37:14 Yuuhi [benni@p5483AF38.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:03 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-128-142.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:56 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-207-119.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:41:24 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-76-177.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:23 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-128-142.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:43:32 sylecn [~sylecn@207.7.149.31] has joined #lisp 06:43:47 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has joined #lisp 06:46:38 i'm new to cl...where should i include this call in my project to get access to sdl?: (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :lispbuilder-sdl) 06:47:10 axion: usually, you want to put the dependency into your own project's .asd file 06:47:22 it is, but i still need that call 06:47:32 im not sure if i did asd defpackage right :( 06:47:35 axion: not, if things are set up properly. 06:47:45 (:depends-on :lispbuilder-sdl) 06:47:45 i am using ql 06:48:13 kmizumar [~kmizumar@118.22.7.240] has joined #lisp 06:48:21 quicklisp is needed just to fetch and install libraries. for loading them as dependency, asdf is the right tool. 06:49:06 quickproject can help you to set up your project: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html?thread=674335 06:49:39 -!- dagda [~dagda_@c-98-245-158-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:49:50 i think syko's asd i modified is old or something....my form doesnt look like that 06:50:01 ill investigate, thanks 06:50:10 paste the .asd file to paste.lisp.org if you want us to look at it. 06:50:49 i was wrong, actually: :depends-on (:lispbuilder-sdl) would have been right, sorry. 06:51:28 http://paste.lisp.org/display/126639 06:51:53 that looks good 06:52:02 hmmhttp://paste.lisp.org/display/126639 06:52:06 oops 06:52:17 when you use (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :lispcrawlr), the dependency is not loaded? 06:52:51 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:52:58 -!- Sysop_fb [~bleh@108-66-160-34.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:54:47 it does work after that 06:55:27 i guess im misunderstanding where i should call the asdf in my project, or call it from repl after restarting 06:56:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:56:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@91.192.66.227] has joined #lisp 06:56:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@91.192.66.227] has quit [Changing host] 06:56:52 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:02:23 -!- kmizumar [~kmizumar@118.22.7.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:02:37 jsoft_ [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 07:04:39 at some point, you should use asdf to load your own system. 07:05:57 your project itself really doesn't make calls to asdf 07:06:12 your project, and specifically its .asd file, is in a known path to asdf 07:06:29 then you interactively load it at the repl, and your project and all its dependencies are loaded in 07:06:43 from there, you can save-lisp-and-die or something to bundle up an executable if you want 07:07:13 I don't know about others, but I typically put short-named helper functions to call asdf in my .sbclrc file 07:07:31 and if you're using quicklisp, you might be able to load your project with a shorter statement in there 07:07:44 *Phoodus* hasn't gotten into quicklisp yet, should do so at some point 07:08:22 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 07:09:34 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 07:11:24 chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:24 -!- johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-99-39-151-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Nodding off now.] 07:14:18 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:15:19 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:15:30 Phoodus: it's good 07:16:37 hello, I need to subclass a fundamental-binary-input-stream, I'd like to know which generic function I should implement 07:18:55 Phoodus: wth are you waiting for? 07:19:24 _pw_ [~user@125.34.44.90] has joined #lisp 07:19:51 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 07:20:55 ps.: I'll access these streams with read-sequence and streams will be bound to a concatenated stream 07:21:01 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 07:22:08 kiuma: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/CL/Issues/stream-definition-by-user.html 07:22:13 kiuma: did you read that? 07:22:27 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-143.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:22:29 just reading 07:25:45 Ralith: other things have been taking priority 07:26:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:30:45 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-31-102.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:31 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:37:15 H4ns, I thought I had to implement stream-read-sequence since I was using read-sequence, but I've just discovered that I have to implement stream-read-byte 07:37:23 is it correct ? 07:38:26 kiuma: i don't know. if i'd want to do it, i'd read docs, look at the source code of some implementations and experiment. 07:38:44 There should be a default implementation of stream-read-sequence that is defined in terms of stream-read-byte. 07:38:51 It might be ... inefficient. 07:40:28 Zhivago, infact I thought that since I was using read-sequence the method called would have beed stream-read-sequence, but it seems that stream-read-byte is used. 07:40:55 I don't know why, I'm just reading and experimenting 07:40:57 kiuma: did you try? 07:41:12 kiuma: did you look at the source code of some implementation? 07:41:28 second step :) 07:42:16 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.173.79] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:42:42 I'll give a look to flexi-streams 07:43:43 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 07:44:07 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-013.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:44:13 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-tqgsmeonstwsvznj] has joined #lisp 07:44:32 antifuchs: idna is missing a (:file "decode") in the .asd 07:51:17 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:58:18 brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:59:48 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@194.176.111.7] has joined #lisp 07:59:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@194.176.111.7] has quit [Changing host] 07:59:48 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:00:44 I still don't get it why when when I call read-sequence stream-read-byte is used instead of stream-read-sequence (I've given a look at flexi-streams) 08:01:24 hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD72D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:27 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:01:35 anybody know of a quick reference to something like parse-integer, but also accepts floating point formats? 08:01:37 despite the fact that stream-read-sequence is not mentioned in http://www.nhplace.com/kent/CL/Issues/stream-definition-by-user.html 08:01:44 one that accepts garbage after the number 08:02:03 Phoodus: i think the library is called parse-number, should be in quicklisp 08:02:10 ok 08:03:34 Phoodus, http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/strings.html#number 08:03:57 (parse-integer " 42 is forty-two" :junk-allowed t) 08:04:12 ahh , sorry 08:04:38 mmm, you could use cl-ppcre 08:04:44 kiuma: or parse-number 08:05:03 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 08:05:22 parse-number doesn't allow trailing stuff 08:05:40 then cl-ppcre 08:07:55 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has joined #lisp 08:08:58 daschel [~berner@p4FF8B2AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:26 sqweek [7c963081@gateway/web/freenode/ip.124.150.48.129] has joined #lisp 08:12:23 (let ((*read-eval* nil)) (read-from-string (first (cl-ppcre:all-matches-as-strings "[0-9]+(\\.[0-9]*)?" "hello 1.23 foo")))) 08:12:29 Phoodus ^^ 08:12:34 osa1 [~sinan@141.196.58.107] has joined #lisp 08:13:26 why do you bind read-equal? 08:13:37 how do you parse double constants, exponents? 08:13:58 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.59.66] has joined #lisp 08:14:05 heya, does anyone know if sbcl has a function to close an open file descriptor by number? 08:14:35 H4ns ? 08:14:43 kiuma: close, also need exponent support, with d/e/f 08:14:55 sqweek: sb-posix:close 08:14:57 and replace the d/e/f so it's always e 08:15:27 and optional +/- before the integer part & exponent 08:15:38 swapping out the exponent character is the only iffy part really 08:15:53 Phoodus: i'd check whether parse-number can be extended by :junk-allowed 08:16:07 H4ns: thank ye kindly 08:16:14 the parse-number code isn't modular at all, thought about it 08:16:28 *sigh* :/ 08:16:29 Phoodus, ppcre is very flexible, mine was a sample for a basic usage 08:16:42 right, I think that's the easiest way to go about it 08:16:49 Phoodus: does you data come from an external source? 08:16:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-155.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:16:53 yes 08:16:55 untrusted 08:17:20 Phoodus: and you can't even tokenize the strings properly? 08:17:47 well, I was just looking to see if somebody had already tackled exactly my problem 08:17:59 H4ns, how tokenize foo45bar ? 08:18:03 the regex to verify that it's read-clean will suffice 08:18:14 kiuma: that is one token. 08:18:36 and you still need regex 08:19:01 no way round it. 08:22:17 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-013.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:24:30 -!- doesthiswork [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:24:57 -!- SlayersZ [~SlayersZ@70.65.233.0] has left #lisp 08:27:05 ugh, clppcre is noisy on build 08:28:58 any bot in here to remember a message? 08:30:04 reb` [user@nat/google/x-jnwigcqodnxeqllc] has joined #lisp 08:30:24 -!- reb [user@nat/google/x-uoozmmtdpprzwbxj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:30:43 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:32:58 -!- borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:33:18 borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:31 -!- borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:34:11 -!- osa1 [~sinan@141.196.58.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:35:47 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128210078.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 08:37:35 breathing life into CLIM http://imgur.com/a/S5dP0 08:37:54 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:39:02 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:44:34 ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 08:49:20 reb`` [user@nat/google/x-fnfwmittotganshx] has joined #lisp 08:50:07 -!- reb` [user@nat/google/x-jnwigcqodnxeqllc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:50:13 zyglot [57e37c83@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.227.124.131] has joined #lisp 08:50:22 tcr [~tcr@host110-2.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:52:24 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@207.7.149.31] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:53:43 jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has joined #lisp 08:53:54 mathslinux [~user@119.255.44.227] has joined #lisp 08:55:44 flip214 memoserv works for any registered users to give them a message when they connect to freenode 08:57:41 -!- ericeatsbrains_ [~ericeatsb@173-164-222-106-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:58:58 ericeatsbrains [~ericeatsb@173-164-222-106-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:59 YuleAthas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 09:00:26 -!- daschel [~berner@p4FF8B2AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:01:09 gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 09:02:14 -!- 16WAAASNV [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:02:22 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-92-111.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:07:23 -!- zyglot [57e37c83@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.227.124.131] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:07:54 eMBee: thanks ... but it would be for a user who's connected, so more like «minion: tell ... "..."» 09:08:01 marsell [~marsell@120.18.174.174] has joined #lisp 09:11:47 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:14:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 09:15:30 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:15:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@194.176.111.7] has joined #lisp 09:15:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@194.176.111.7] has quit [Changing host] 09:15:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:15:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 09:16:17 katesmith_ [~katesmith@75-138-199-162.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 09:16:17 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-199-162.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 09:16:17 -!- katesmith_ [~katesmith@75-138-199-162.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 09:16:17 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 09:16:17 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-199-162.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 09:16:17 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 09:21:41 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-31-102.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:43 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has left #lisp 09:22:53 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-31-102.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:28:43 flip214: well they'd get the message anyways, and it's going to stay there until it is actively read 09:29:51 brandelune [~suzume@pl090.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:29:52 lispmeister [~fix@AStDenis-551-1-31-123.w92-160.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:29:55 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:30:03 -!- chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:30:12 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:36:05 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:37:04 -!- wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38:02 hi 09:38:59 agumonkey [agumonkey@8.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:29 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128210078.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:40:57 -!- Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:41:49 flip214: sys 64000 09:44:31 Posterdati: 10 goto 10 09:45:36 q0tw4 [~rsumin@46.164.135.37] has joined #lisp 09:45:37 flip214: 10 rem 20 goto 65535 09:45:41 sys64738 09:45:59 Phoodus: you can't 09:46:12 sudo sys64738 ;) 09:46:17 flip214: tell him 09:46:35 poke 0,1 09:46:44 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:47:29 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-155.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:49:30 speaking of 8-bit basic, the c64 one taught me that a decimal point on its own is a valid number of value 0 09:49:48 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-mwsdqqvavouajehe] has joined #lisp 09:49:50 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:49:50 kinda bugs me that parsers nowadays are generally specced not to do that 09:50:07 well, it does clash with lisp syntax, too 09:50:11 (tagbody ten (go ten)) 09:50:21 (loop) 09:50:32 flip214: right, but +.e0 is not zero, it's a symbol 09:50:38 Phoodus, you mean "." ==> "0.0" ? 09:50:57 yeah, that's how the c64 worked. it was much faster to parse as well, since it didn't have to do any *10 steps 09:50:57 Qworkescence: that's what I thought, too 09:51:28 well, floating point on an 6502 wasn't nice anyway 09:51:39 Phoodus, in lisp tradition I'd call that number MOST-IMPRECISE-NUMBER. 09:51:45 heh 09:58:25 reb``` [user@nat/google/x-sgkfwceqttvquaux] has joined #lisp 09:58:52 -!- reb`` [user@nat/google/x-fnfwmittotganshx] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:00:25 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:01:59 Phoodus: . 10:04:25 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-212-252.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 10:04:30 0.0 10:07:40 -!- brendyn [~brendyn@123-2-73-61.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:07:55 -!- aliasxerog [~mveety@thefoundry.csh.rit.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:11:55 -!- teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:11:57 DataLinkDroid [~David@CPE-121-212-131-12.lns10.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:12:11 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:13:00 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:16:54 flip214: only floating point? 10:17:08 easyE [jzScpfxIgM@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 10:18:12 Posterdati: yes ... imagine having to use 8bit operations for a 23bit mantissa, 7bit exponent, without having a multiplication operation in the CPU ... 10:18:30 well, there've been routines in ROM, obviously, but it ain't nice 10:18:59 they typically used a 24-bit mantissa, implying the high 1-bit and using a high mantissa byte of 0 to indicate zero 10:19:26 hmm, or a special value of the exponent byte 10:19:36 don't quite recall. But they did use all 24 bits 10:20:43 ... 10:22:25 Atari OS had FP routines in ROM, iirc. Often disabled to get more space 10:23:32 benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:25:33 sshaginyan [~sshaginya@cpe-76-167-139-212.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:26:14 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qpbpiysbwlraibtj] has joined #lisp 10:28:06 -!- vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-155-056.dsl.sil.at] has quit [Quit: vervic] 10:29:01 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:33:18 mega1 [~user@2E6BB436.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #lisp 10:33:19 -!- tcr [~tcr@host110-2.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:33:30 waveman [~tim@203-214-39-56.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:33:38 aliasxerog [~mveety@thefoundry.csh.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 10:36:14 good morning everyone 10:39:14 daniel_ [~daniel@p50829DF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:23 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@CPE-121-212-131-12.lns10.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Bye] 10:40:26 hi Blkt 10:41:31 -!- daniel___ [~daniel@p5082B4CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:46:09 does any of you cxml-rng? 10:46:13 -!- Vivitron [~user@ip98-165-43-236.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:46:14 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 10:51:21 -!- aliasxerog [~mveety@thefoundry.csh.rit.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:52:52 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-200-176.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 10:56:40 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:58:53 aliasxerog [~mveety@thefoundry.csh.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 11:01:08 benkard_ [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:02:29 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-76-177.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:04:55 -!- waveman [~tim@203-214-39-56.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:05:00 -!- benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:05:43 can anyone tell me what's the best way to play a (background) wav file that works in all browsers? 11:05:44 I'm having a problem with the http server I'm writing and transfer-encoding set to chunked, the browser load spinner doesn't stop as it beleaves to expect more data. This is the chunks I'm sending: http://pastebin.com/1YNP97vL. I also see the last 0 in the browser 11:05:51 benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:06:17 -!- YuleAthas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:06:20 sorry , ignore first question 11:07:13 but could you tell me what's wrong with the chunk I'm sending ? 11:07:15 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:07:42 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:00 kiuma: what is the syntax of a chunk length? 11:09:17 -!- benkard_ [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:09:29 Xach, http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec3.html 3.6.1 11:09:37 ahhh 11:09:39 kiuma: Do you see now what you have done wrong? 11:09:41 hex 11:09:45 nefo [~nefo@58.37.40.23] has joined #lisp 11:09:46 -!- nefo [~nefo@58.37.40.23] has quit [Changing host] 11:09:46 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 11:10:04 I didn't use hex :) 11:11:18 -!- X99 [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:12:15 -!- benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:15:22 kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 11:15:49 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:16:32 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-70-52.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:56 now it works :) thank you Xach 11:18:03 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 11:18:12 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:49 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:22:29 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:55 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:25:05 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:25:59 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:28:12 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 11:32:06 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 11:34:27 svatOpluk [~lasica@puck.tis.hr] has joined #lisp 11:39:04 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qpbpiysbwlraibtj] has left #lisp 11:42:25 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 11:44:43 -!- mathslinux [~user@119.255.44.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:46:18 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 11:48:19 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.178] has joined #lisp 11:48:34 -!- heidymadia [~saasten@61.247.42.167] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:48:53 -!- svatOpluk [~lasica@puck.tis.hr] has left #lisp 11:56:35 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.174.174] has quit [Quit: marsell] 11:58:34 YuleAthas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:59:16 hooray 12:06:27 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:06:33 Xach, my favorite thing to do with QL is to install climacs 12:07:30 mu 12:09:08 heidymadia [~saasten@fm-ip-61.247.42.167.fast.net.id] has joined #lisp 12:11:03 Quadrescence: why? 12:13:22 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-155.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:14:58 Xach, let me remind myself why 12:15:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-155.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:16:09 Xach, actually I Am Disappointed now, it failed to build here 12:16:40 The variable CLIM-MOP::*PTYPE-T-CLASS* is unbound. 12:16:43 :C 12:17:23 -!- chenbing [~user@122.233.180.9] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:33 ("clim-lisp" "Lisp-Dep" "fix-lispworks") 12:17:38 so I guess it's LW specific code 12:21:22 xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has joined #lisp 12:23:29 :( 12:24:26 el-maxo [~max@p57A5735D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:24:34 hi 12:25:38 I'd like to implement a really small lisp for a study project 12:26:21 Havea look at http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/aim-8.html and http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/index.html 12:27:45 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:27:57 el-maxo: implementing a really small lisp in lisp is easy. 12:28:02 yeah I read grahams "review" 12:28:22 pjb: I want to write a compiler for it though, (target language C) 12:28:37 Read LiSP. (Lisp In Small Pieces). 12:29:10 chenbing [~user@122.233.180.9] has joined #lisp 12:29:19 Or the original in French if you prefer http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html 12:29:57 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-31-102.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:31:34 -!- katesmith_ is now known as katesmith 12:31:43 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:32:20 will read it, but I don't have it yet 12:32:42 any tips on how to implement let? 12:32:46 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:33:34 I thought about a macro translating to ((lambda (names...) body) values) 12:34:01 Cosman246 [~cosman246@64.134.188.7] has joined #lisp 12:36:50 -!- heidymadia [~saasten@fm-ip-61.247.42.167.fast.net.id] has left #lisp 12:37:18 Something like http://paste.lisp.org/display/126640 12:37:32 You can indeed first macroexpand some forms to reduce the number of special forms. 12:37:52 You may expand everything to lambda, and have to compile only that. 12:39:15 dem lexical closures 12:40:08 guess I need to minimize special forms 12:43:17 what minimal set of special forms would you recommend if I use a macro system for defining stuff like LET? 12:43:26 sacho [~sacho@92-247-208-87.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 12:43:32 I understand you have some options there 12:43:34 ;s,nfs 12:43:37 lambda 12:43:51 You you don't need anything else. 12:44:25 even if you needed/wanted other things, lambda is the toughest one to do right and correctly, so might as well learn to implement that 12:44:40 el-maxo: http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html 12:46:00 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 12:46:16 how hard is implementing lambda in C? 12:47:08 Let's just say that lisp functions are not implemented directly as C functions. 12:47:26 Think about: (let ((x 1)) (lambda () (incf x))) 12:47:58 Or worse: (let ((x 1)) (list (lambda () (incf x)) (lambda () (decf x)))) 12:50:31 pjb, What was your reason for preferring (function f) over #'f? 12:51:05 I prefer the roundness and chubbyness of parentheses over the spikes of sharp. 12:51:18 :D 12:51:19 :) 12:52:16 pjb, But, !, CL-USER> (- (length "(function f)") (length "#'f")) ==> 9 12:52:46 I don't care about that. 12:52:56 pjb, what are you, some kind of COBOL lover 12:53:27 Yep. 12:53:28 I see so I need to store scopes with functions, that get merged with the calling scope? 12:53:43 el-maxo: environments. yes. 12:53:52 a closure is an environment + a procedure. 12:53:59 I wanted to use that term and then decided it was too bread betetr use scope haha 12:54:05 s/bread/broad 12:54:43 thats good info 12:55:08 el-maxo, you should read SICP and/or LiSP and/or On Lisp 12:55:29 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@64.134.188.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:55:33 Qworkescence: I know, these books are just so expensive... 12:55:44 el-maxo, On Lisp is free, SICP is free, online 12:55:52 (free & legal) 12:56:09 http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisptext.html 12:56:34 http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html 12:56:36 I work 8hrs a day in front of a display writing crappy ruby and javascript, I just need paper in my free time =) 12:56:55 el-maxo, Or consider a decent e-book reader 12:56:59 Get yourself a better display. 12:57:10 Why not write good javascript instead? 12:57:45 the company I work at strongly believes in OOP and misusing JS 12:58:01 Ah. 12:58:18 sometimes I get a task so isolated I can actually USE closures 12:58:19 I find that I quite like javascript, these days. 12:58:56 It has lambda so its pretty alright but the syntax fucks it up for me 12:59:59 plus so many things are just weird 13:00:33 One of the most surprising things for me was just how nice it is to be able to declare local functions after their use. 13:01:18 osa1 [~sinan@141.196.66.33] has joined #lisp 13:01:40 lazybone_ [~yukiy@110.185.233.67] has joined #lisp 13:01:47 pjb, It is sometimes argued that lispers are hypocritical because they use special syntax like 'x as opposed to (QUOTE x), and this is an example of why fully parenthesized notation is, to a degree, a setback and less natural, whereas abbreviated syntactic forms like 'x are more readable and natural. Do you have any comments about this, and where does one draw the line for syntax? 13:01:52 Zhivago, Can you give an example? 13:03:07 LoadFile(foo, LoadFileDone); \n return; \n function LoadFileDone (result) { ... } 13:03:19 -!- mega1 [~user@2E6BB436.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:03:44 But even just being able to see the logic of a function before seeing the implementation details is ... nice. 13:03:51 Like an arse-backward flet. 13:04:01 yeah I like to use that too 13:04:19 mega1 [~user@2E6BB436.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #lisp 13:04:26 but I usually put the function statements right after the var statement before the function body 13:04:53 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:04:53 less confusion in case a name gets shadowed 13:04:55 Zhivago, I saw a panel of programming language designers talk recently and one of them stressed the importance of having source code order be irrelevant, which I agree with, and ties into what you said there. 13:05:00 Try putting them after the return. :) 13:05:33 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:06:14 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.43.14] has joined #lisp 13:06:22 I learned today that coffeescript breaks shadowing with local variables, and the coffescript athor says thats intentional and shadowing is bad 13:06:40 with I find disturbing 13:06:41 -!- lazybone_ is now known as lazybone 13:06:44 wich 13:06:57 what the heck is wrong with my spelling these days 13:07:53 -!- mega1 [~user@2E6BB436.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:08:12 mega1 [~user@2E6BB436.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #lisp 13:12:22 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-200-176.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12:40 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 13:25:10 pnq [~nick@AC814C70.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:27:10 _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.117.71] has joined #lisp 13:30:20 johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-99-39-151-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:57 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@31.163.212.15] has joined #lisp 13:34:05 Qworkescence: i don't get what's hypocritical. for me the advantage of the fully parenthesized notion plays out in the structure, nesting and precedence. so i don't see the problem with using 'x for (quote x) 13:34:16 Hello. 13:34:24 -!- kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:34:41 Does Allegro CL support generationg of standalone executable files? 13:35:01 I think ECL does that pretty well 13:35:10 n1tn4tsn0k: yes. 13:35:15 About ECL I know too. 13:35:41 Xach, and it works like sbcl's executables? 13:35:55 Just an lisp-system with injected code? 13:36:06 * a 13:36:27 -!- xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:36:45 n1tn4tsn0k: I don't know. 13:36:55 n1tn4tsn0k: I suspect the options are more sophisticated. 13:37:38 Ok. Thanks 13:38:30 Is there a CL function that READs a list? Like READ just without evaluation, (foo bar baz) should be treated like '(foo bar baz) is treated by READ. 13:38:35 Oh.. and how about lispworks? 13:38:49 n1tn4tsn0k: yes. 13:38:58 n1tn4tsn0k: I think every CL system can generate standalone executables. 13:39:55 hi,with quickproject ,package.lisp use " (:shadowing-import-from #:iterate))" seems not works, package.lisp can be compiled ,but *project*.lisp can't be compiled . 13:40:07 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: [ Close the World, Open the nExt ]] 13:40:57 chenbing: Why are there no symbols in the :shadowing-import-from clause? 13:41:03 symbol names, rather 13:42:01 :shadowing-import-from need more detailed Symbols? 13:42:19 el-maxo: read-delimited-list ? 13:42:28 chenbing: what do you think shadowing-import-from does? 13:42:29 Xach, but I've never seen CL system which can generate standalone executables that looks and functions exactly like native binary compiled with gcc for example. :) 13:42:39 n1tn4tsn0k: So? 13:42:50 I think like (use-package ***) 13:42:50 Yes. 13:42:57 nitn: ECLS. 13:42:58 chenbing: No, it is not like that. 13:43:04 chenbing: The :use clause is like that. 13:43:53 I see.. 13:44:13 Zhivago, it generates libraries. It can generate executable but it will be just copy of ECL with my code in it. 13:44:44 nitn: It compiles using gcc ... 13:44:57 Oh.. 13:45:17 Wait a minute please. I'll try. 13:45:46 n1tn4tsn0k in what way don't they function like native binary compiled with gcc? 13:46:05 Because it is copy of ecl. 13:46:08 other lisp implementations are compiled too, just that they link in a runtime, just like gcc would link a libc 13:47:45 Well, they happen to be native binaries compiled with gcc. 13:48:08 It links to a shared library that has some ECL runtime support in it. 13:48:09 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@cpe-72-182-70-190.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:48:11 -!- duomo [~duomo@cpe-67-248-14-24.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:48:14 Much like C binaries do ... 13:48:31 But it isn't "just a copy of ecl". 13:48:31 -!- sshaginyan [~sshaginya@cpe-76-167-139-212.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:49:23 http://pastie.org/3057354 13:49:42 great, I pass my first project :-D 13:50:15 Zhivago, see the paste. 13:50:47 Yeah, and what about it? 13:50:53 wonderful quickproject. tomorrow i will test buildapp 13:51:04 Zhivago, and it also takes commandline arguments of ECL. It is copy of ECL. No? 13:51:12 Tell it to use a different start function other than the REPL. 13:51:22 Pfff. 13:51:26 It's not a copy -- it's linking to a shared library that contains a REPL, etc. 13:51:31 doesthiswork [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:35 It contains REPL. 13:51:46 And that's what you're complaining about? 13:51:50 rme [~rme@50.43.130.95] has joined #lisp 13:51:57 Yes. 13:52:16 I think REPL is excess in the simples program like helloworld. 13:52:21 lisp comes with the ability to compile code at runtime, you need a compiler for that in your binary 13:52:25 * simple 13:52:48 Then don't use it. 13:52:49 -!- ASau [~user@93-80-123-145.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:52:51 benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:53:01 Not use what? 13:53:03 Or are you going to complain about printf in C? 13:53:08 The REPL. 13:53:20 ASau [~user@176.14.21.77] has joined #lisp 13:53:32 No. printf in C uses runtime librart. 13:53:37 * library 13:54:02 Can I compile program in CL without REPL? 13:54:05 Just like ECLS does ... 13:54:38 Can you compile a program in C without printf? 13:54:51 Probably, if you try hard enough, but why bother? 13:55:03 Ideological purity 13:55:26 Precious bodily fluids. 13:55:30 libc is preinstalled in every OS, doesn't it ? 13:56:28 -!- sacho [~sacho@92-247-208-87.spectrumnet.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:56:41 which one ? libc ? ulibc ? .. 13:57:11 nitn: No. And even if it were, so what? 13:57:20 nitn: How big is the ECLS shared library? 13:57:41 A few meg? My goddamned telephone has hundreds of megabytes of ram. 13:58:28 I probably couldn't buy a cup of coffee for a hundred meg of system ram, these days. 14:00:13 a common misconception is imho that cheap hardware justifies bad design 14:00:58 -!- doesthiswork [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has left #lisp 14:01:00 Another common misconception is that it's useful to worrying about trivial things that don't matter is worthwhile. 14:01:33 but bad design leads to huge wastes of time 14:01:46 not comparably to just doing it right 14:01:48 but including a runtime is not bad design. it's a tradeoff between developer time and machine resources 14:02:25 true, I guess I should read the chat log more ;) 14:02:29 -!- benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:02:40 benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:03:27 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 14:04:40 how does read-delimited-list know that sublists start with ( and end with )? 14:04:55 *THE-ANSWER* please ;) 14:05:20 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-mwsdqqvavouajehe] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:05:57 el-maxo: does it have to know? 14:06:21 Cosman246 [~cosman246@64.134.188.7] has joined #lisp 14:06:26 I'm pretty sure that ECL is capable of creating executable that doesn't include ECL compiler if you're willing to give up using CL functions like compile, load etc 14:06:39 el-maxo: (get-macro-character #\() 14:07:26 so I tehr is no parameter like *list-open-character* that holds #\( ? 14:07:28 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:36 s/tehr/there 14:07:41 el-maxo: no. it is driven by the readtable. 14:07:49 peterhil [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has joined #lisp 14:08:35 timb [~tim@bacon2.burri.to] has joined #lisp 14:08:38 -!- brandelune [~suzume@pl090.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune] 14:10:09 Can clisp compile programs? 14:10:22 Or it is just interpreter? 14:10:33 clisp the implementation? 14:10:39 clisp as in common lisp, or clisp the common lisp implementation? 14:10:42 n1tn4tsn0k: clisp can compile programs. 14:11:06 pjb, into native code or its bytecode? 14:11:26 What difference does it makes? It has a JIT compiler too. 14:11:44 Native code is faster. 14:11:48 you didn't answer what clisp you're refering to 14:12:08 implementation, i think. 14:12:15 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 14:12:30 Oh nooooo! We lost Xach! 14:13:07 Oh, it's so sadly. :( 14:13:17 clisp compiles to byte code, most other CL implementations compile to machine code 14:13:51 bearr [~bearr@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 14:14:04 kennyd: clisp has a JIT compiler which obvivously produces native code! 14:14:26 hello 14:14:31 bearr, hi 14:14:46 -!- benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: benkard] 14:15:39 i want to have a config.lisp file, which will be user code and settings that is loaded at runtime. how do I load it's content to a specific package to avoid name clashing with the actual program code? 14:16:45 bearr: bind *package* berofe reading the file 14:16:57 before even 14:17:37 (let ((*package* :package)) (load-config)) like this? 14:17:56 Does anyone see any obvious drawbacks or omissions from this tagged pointer scheme? http://codepad.org/MurKlluC 14:17:59 bearr: yes 14:18:02 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 14:18:07 thanks! 14:18:07 Greetings lispers 14:18:09 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:19 xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has joined #lisp 14:20:38 -!- xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:21:00 I am getting "value :USER is not of the expected type PACKAGE." 14:21:36 bearr: do you have package named "USER"? 14:21:42 yes 14:22:07 bearr: are you sure? 14:22:15 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:22:16 bearr: does (find-package :user) work? 14:22:29 I'm sure (in-package :user) works 14:22:36 so does find-package 14:22:43 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:51 benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:22:51 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:23:12 bearr: ok, then change the binding form to (*package* (find-package :user)) 14:24:07 works, thanks again 14:24:48 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:27:17 mathrick_ [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 14:29:07 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:53 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:32:40 by the way what do you guys prefer for config files if you have to deploy program, load or read? 14:33:13 bearr: what implementation? 14:33:45 bearr: depends on the users and the requirements for security/virus protection, etc. 14:33:49 bearr: You have several options. Generally, (a) save a custom core or (b) create an executable. Depends on the implementation. 14:34:04 bearr: Ugh, sorry, I misread your question. 14:34:32 LOAD is good for a Q&D solution or for power users. READ is needed for dummy users or high security requirements. 14:36:05 bearr: I prefer using something analogous to variable=value and parsing it. That puts bounds on what can be done. 14:36:51 Plus, the person editing the config is more likely to understand that than sexp. 14:39:04 I wrote something really minimal for my use cases: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126644 14:40:26 so I'd say read 14:41:58 read is more limiting in that you can't create new functions. but I guess that can be considered a good thing in some cases 14:42:17 if you just need to set some variables 14:42:43 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has joined #lisp 14:46:53 peaces [~peaces@46.188.207.217] has joined #lisp 14:47:23 -!- mega1 [~user@2E6BB436.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:47:23 -!- peaces [~peaces@46.188.207.217] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:48:09 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:11 is anyone familiar with a cheap lisp-friendly web hosting site? I wanted to create a dynamic web page in lisp but don't want to pay for VPN just so I can install sbcl and appropriate libraries 14:49:36 tech-coop, maybe 14:49:48 dagda [~dagda_@c-98-245-158-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:25 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-386224.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:51:00 bearr: Looks like tech-coop is on the order of $20/month with SBCL 14:51:01 how does peek-char know what is considered whitespace? 14:51:10 felideon [~user@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:22 el-maxo: readtable! 14:52:18 so what if I want to know if a character would be skipped by (peek-char t) ? 14:56:55 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:57:03 -!- benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:57:11 ThomasH I'm checking it out now. a bit annoying that I have to pay $10 extra a month to have sbcl, but only $5 to have perl/php/ruby/ 14:58:54 iwillig [~ivan@66.209.120.98] has joined #lisp 15:00:37 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:02 bearr: Economies of scale? 15:09:08 -!- sqweek [7c963081@gateway/web/freenode/ip.124.150.48.129] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:09:23 benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:09:58 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:10:34 thekilon [~kilon@athedsl-384063.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:12:01 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@64.134.188.7] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:12:42 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-386224.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:13:28 Morning 15:14:11 -!- pnq [~nick@AC814C70.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:15:21 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:15:38 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 15:16:47 pnq [~nick@ACA2D49C.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:17:55 -!- thekilon [~kilon@athedsl-384063.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:21:09 morning :) 15:24:31 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 15:26:24 xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has joined #lisp 15:28:17 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-396000.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:28:31 -!- kilon is now known as kilon_skyrim 15:30:09 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:32:26 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0724.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:34:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:35:38 Well, he'll be gone for eternity. 15:35:51 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2D49C.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:36:52 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-56.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 15:38:55 -!- benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: benkard] 15:44:04 benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:45:30 teggi [~teggi@113.172.42.12] has joined #lisp 15:51:57 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:52:10 or he'll take an arrow to the knee and be back soon enough 15:53:36 hello 16:02:15 -!- ``Erik [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:03:44 -!- lispmeister [~fix@AStDenis-551-1-31-123.w92-160.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:06:16 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:06:37 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 16:07:25 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-tqgsmeonstwsvznj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:09:40 ``Erik [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:26 spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-111-48.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:11:16 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:02 bearr: it all depends on whether YOU will have to edit the configuration files, or some user will have to do it. But beware, often you think it's the user who will do it, but you end up doing it yourself. So my advice would be to keep a SEXP format for your configuration files! 16:13:03 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc1-midd16-2-0-cust160.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:13:33 You can always write a little parser to translate user-syntax into sexp, like Xen does (it transforms python-like configuration files into sexp files). 16:14:01 pjb yes I prefer to keep it sexp too 16:14:43 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-123267BA.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz] 16:15:05 pjb: I'm actually considering changing the data file for a program of mine to sexp format. It's not really supposed to be user editable. I also plan on using an archive file for data storage in the future, so it will be even less accessible. 16:15:54 pjb: The 'project file' for the program will be a compressed archive. 16:17:54 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Quit: Bad spellers of the world, untie!] 16:18:11 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-123267BA.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 16:22:14 ThomasH: yes, you can always gzip the sexps to hide them from the users :-) 16:25:22 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has left #lisp 16:27:30 Shaftoe [~Moe111@modemcable037.54-22-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:29:02 tcr [~tcr@host110-2.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:30:18 -!- benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: benkard] 16:34:42 -!- YuleAthas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:35:20 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.117.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:38:10 -!- tcr [~tcr@host110-2.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:42:12 sshaginyan [~sshaginya@cpe-76-167-139-212.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:48:46 is there a way to "hold" a place using let so that, for example, I can do (gethash ...) and behave one way if it exists, and another way if it's new (without having called gethash 2 separate times? 16:49:10 or is the assumption that the same gethash gets called wether it's being setf'd or not simply a wrong assumption? 16:51:39 eulyix [~charles@host86-128-9-79.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:52:26 -!- ravster [~user@184.175.28.107] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:53:02 why is it a problem to call gethash twice? 16:53:56 Shaftoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126645 16:54:10 eMBee: it is not a "problem", it just looks bad in running code. 16:54:24 Shaftoe: there was a similar proposal on the alexandria mailing list recently. 16:54:34 thanks H4ns. That looks pretty neat! 16:55:18 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 16:57:34 ah, ok 16:57:57 I must say, I'm starting to like Alexandria. It's got all of the stuff that I usually think "this idiom has to be somewhere but I'm missing it" 16:59:06 (it also has the lol macro writing macros. .. I am but a wandering peasant) 17:00:16 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-111-48.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 17:01:06 -!- bbommarito [~bbommarit@c-68-83-194-239.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 17:01:43 -!- drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:01:53 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-152-91.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:02:47 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:04:09 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:04:09 Shaftoe: gethash caches at least one key! 17:04:33 Shaftoe: use a modify macro if you don't like it for esthetical reasons: (incf (gethash k v 0)) 17:04:47 (push e (gethash k v '())) etc. 17:05:00 uh, that's cool. 17:05:13 flip214: oh my, well spotted 17:05:24 pjb: it works in general cases. In this particular case, I just happened to have a data structure that wasn't readily usable 17:05:25 snearch [~snearch@g231106095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:05:28 (I shouldn't hack on stuff while tired) (: 17:06:08 pjb: btw, that one key cache, is that in the spec? or are you referring to a particular implementation? 17:06:32 Shaftoe: (let ((entry (or (gethash k h) (setf (gethash k h) (new-entry))))) (do-something entry)) 17:06:48 Shaftoe: I'm refering to competitive pressure :-) 17:07:20 so des' ka 17:07:44 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 17:07:53 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:08:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 17:08:38 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:11:20 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 17:13:02 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-211-177.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 17:14:44 vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-155-056.dsl.sil.at] has joined #lisp 17:16:00 -!- snearch [~snearch@g231106095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:16:48 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 17:20:02 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129133131.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 17:21:12 -!- dagda [~dagda_@c-98-245-158-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:05 dagda [~dagda_@38.109.196.34] has joined #lisp 17:24:01 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: cya] 17:24:29 *akovalenko* pastes his macro for "gethash with lazy default form" at 17:24:41 what was that site Xach was working on that did universal lisp documentation? 17:26:13 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:30:20 is it possible to call a function with a list of arguments. like instead of (funcall #'foo bar) do (funcall* #'foo '(bar)) ? 17:30:38 el-maxo: apply 17:30:38 el-maxo: clhs funcall 17:30:47 See section "See also:". 17:30:52 apply would be your dude, yes. 17:32:50 hmm 17:33:17 slime/sbcl tells me the prototype of appy is (apply function arg &rest args) which is confusing 17:33:32 because I thought it should be apply that does this 17:34:04 el-maxo: Look at the examples for apply in the hyperspec 17:34:16 you can pass multiple lists of arguments i.e. (applt #'+ '(1 2 3 4) '(4 3 2 1)) => (5 5 5 5) 17:34:33 No, you cannot. 17:34:52 heh, yea, I was just nodding off before I wrote that 17:34:52 You can write (apply '+ 1 2 3 4 '(5 6 7 8)) 17:34:55 apply #'apply is your friend/enemy here 17:35:22 el-maxo: The signature in the hyperspec is "apply function &rest args+", the SBCL signature is "apply function arg &rest args*" which is effectively the same. 17:35:44 (apply #'apply #'apply #'+ '(1 2 3 4 (5 6 7 8 (9 10 11 12)))) 17:36:18 akovalenko: Atrocious 17:36:26 and erroneous. 17:36:36 erroneous? 17:37:04 erroneous. 17:37:19 well, it's not very *convenient* for calling with multiple sublists of arguments, but otherwise. 17:37:20 Worked for me. 17:37:28 -!- agumonkey [agumonkey@8.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [] 17:37:46 ok, I was wrong. 17:37:53 I don't understand why it works. 17:38:17 pjb: And that's what makes it atrocious, horribly confusing. 17:38:19 -!- iwillig [~ivan@66.209.120.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:38:21 well, if I understood why it's not expected to work, I would be able to clarify :) 17:38:37 I expected more +. 17:38:54 But I guess that's not the point. 17:39:32 each APPLY at the left side "unspreads" a layer of the last "spreadable argument list" 17:39:37 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 17:39:50 iwillig [~ivan@66.209.120.98] has joined #lisp 17:40:15 and yes, when I say that something is your "friend/enemy" (not just a friend), it's not supposed to be cute! 17:42:22 tcr [~tcr@host189-2.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:42:24 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:07 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:46:36 symbolics are crazy 17:46:43 drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has joined #lisp 17:47:01 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:47:19 ? 17:47:51 What are "symbolics"? 17:48:01 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:42 benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has joined #lisp 17:52:23 ask its employees 17:52:32 *employee* 17:52:54 so it's just symbolic, now? 17:53:07 Exactly 17:53:25 Predicate dispatch, where art thou? 17:53:30 m0prl [~clarkema@31-222-178-169.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:54:07 (do-something-with foo (foo-slot foo)) works, just seems a little tacky. 17:54:36 Except, this is perhaps an opportunity for a mixin? 17:56:07 I thought "symbolics" could be used for "symbolic computation", guess Im wrong 17:56:29 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:56:35 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:21 Cosman246 [~cosman246@64.134.188.7] has joined #lisp 17:57:37 pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 17:57:48 I can't really make a mixin because I don't want to inherit the slots. That implies a dummy class for the mixin which also seems tacky. 17:58:22 Not unless you have methods defined on that mixin. 17:59:07 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:59:51 pjb-: Yes 17:59:59 el-maxo: you could, but there has been no book published about symbolics so far :-) 18:00:06 -!- drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:00:13 only about symbolic computation. 18:01:06 And that said, most computation done eg. in C with int are actually symbolic. Eg. yacc uses int for tokens, but that's purely symbolic. 18:01:07 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 18:03:36 ThomasH: mixins commonly don't have any slots. 18:04:11 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.42.12] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:30 pkhuong: Ok, that helps. I think this is good case for using a mixin, but I'm still a little fuzzy on how to organize it. 18:07:30 pkhuong: But if the mixin did have a slot, that's not totally out of the ordinary? 18:08:49 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:08:52 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 18:09:02 did someone say symbolic computation 18:14:25 No, go back to sleep 18:16:38 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:16:42 Bah, I don't think this requires mixins. 18:20:00 -!- X-Scale is now known as X-Scale- 18:22:26 Just so I understand, mixins are used to inherit behavior, correct? 18:23:17 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.173.79] has joined #lisp 18:23:38 -!- kilon_skyrim [~kilon@athedsl-396000.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:31:09 twit 18:31:42 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0724.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 18:32:13 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0724.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:32:59 Nauntilus [~Benji@wsip-68-14-222-194.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:50 -!- tcr [~tcr@host189-2.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:35:21 saschakb: I think it's more a case of ignorance. 18:36:29 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 18:36:35 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:36:38 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:36:58 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:58 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:36:58 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 18:39:43 kilon_skyrim [~kilon@athedsl-187643.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:41:27 ThomasH: yes (though I'd say "not inherit anything but behaviour"). I found that mixins occur pretty naturally in "orthogonal" decomposition (I have an unfortunate personal habit of doing it wrong, i.e. I frequently code "pure abstract".."almost there".."even closer" progression where I should code independent "aspects" and build the ultimate thing on them -- be it functions or classes) 18:44:19 akovalenko: I'm really working hard towards properly segmenting this code into independent "aspects". It makes composing the final behavior and also extending that behavior easier. 18:44:25 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.239] has joined #lisp 18:47:23 pnq [~nick@ACA23BEA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:47:44 snearch [~snearch@g231106095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:48:50 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-384604.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:50:35 -!- kilon_skyrim [~kilon@athedsl-187643.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:55:27 -!- kilon_alios is now known as kilon 19:01:06 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA23BEA.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:03:54 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:04:38 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:04:58 ikki [~ikki@189.247.108.253] has joined #lisp 19:05:53 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:10:15 -!- q0tw4 [~rsumin@46.164.135.37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:39 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:13:18 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@31.163.212.15] has quit [Quit:    ] 19:16:30 benkard_ [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has joined #lisp 19:16:44 gigamonkey [~user@c-68-35-77-11.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:52 -!- sorabji5252 [~user@ip72-199-176-160.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:17:54 sorabji5252 [~user@ip72-199-176-160.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:55 -!- benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:19:55 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 19:20:45 -!- sorabji5252 [~user@ip72-199-176-160.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 19:29:26 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-45-44.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:09 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 19:30:39 benkard_ [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has joined #lisp 19:33:31 -!- benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:33:31 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 19:34:36 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 19:35:40 -!- el-maxo [~max@p57A5735D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:38:28 -!- pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:39:57 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD72D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:41:15 -!- osa1 [~sinan@141.196.66.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:43:29 gigamonkey: are there any plans for combining manifest and something like montezuma to get a fully searchable lisp doc system? if there are plans, is there any completed work? 19:47:28 -!- snearch [~snearch@g231106095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:47:46 bobbysmith007: I hadn't thougt of that. And off the top of my head I don't see that combining Manifest with full-text search is the direction I would think of going. 19:47:53 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.130] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:48:03 Though I'm open to ideas. 19:48:53 -!- benny [~benny@i577A105D.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:48:54 beslyrus: herep 19:49:30 benny [~benny@i577A101B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:50:05 chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:44 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0724.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:15 one of the common complaints from my coworkers is that it is hard to locate code that might be relevant to a task at hand if one is not already familiar with a library. Thus I was thinking that indexing all the docs for everything might allow someone to pull up all functions related to a given task (eg: "insert and alist" or some such) 19:53:21 -!- lazybone [~yukiy@110.185.233.67] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:54:07 I was mostly thinking about this from a "libraries we are already using" perspective, but that kind of index could conceivably be useful for discovering libraries as well if it was run on everything in QL 19:54:32 err discovering NEW-to-me libraries 19:54:44 apropos ? 19:55:21 (apropos "alist") 19:55:40 at least gives you a pointer to the things the image knows about. 19:55:51 there is C-c C-d p to explore a package and M-. to read the source. 19:56:13 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-45-143.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:56:54 there's also M-x slime-apropos 19:57:39 bobbysmith007: were you thinking to make such info more apparent to google forex? 19:58:42 Fade: apropos doesnt search docs, which is the gap i was seeing such a proposed system filling 19:59:42 being google searchable might be nice, but just actually performing searches through doc strings for relevant phrases could be very useful as well 20:00:20 *nod* 20:01:05 I tend to just apropos and then M-. to the relevant code, but if a searchable index of that stuff could be tied to similar machinery in emacs, then it'd make the feature richer. 20:01:52 rpg [~rpg@74-94-85-234-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:48 agumonkey [agumonkey@8.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:20 honestly this is a problem being solved less directly by quicklisp facilitating smaller, less general packages. However I (like I am guessing many) still have at least one giant-ball-of-mud utilities library with lots of interesting but not well organized and perhaps poorly named functionality. An example: before I released group-by and did lots of work with it, the name I had given the proto-function of that was something aweful like coalesce-alists- 20:04:55 So if I had been able to search by "group AND alists" I might have noticed that function even though it was incredibly poorly named, next time I needed to perform that task (even though my apropo for group had failed) 20:05:41 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:08:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@194.176.111.7] has joined #lisp 20:08:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@194.176.111.7] has quit [Changing host] 20:08:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 20:11:42 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-56.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:11:57 Vivitron [~user@ip98-165-43-236.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:26 pnq [~nick@ACA31028.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:16 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Offline] 20:17:53 -!- rpg [~rpg@74-94-85-234-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: rpg] 20:18:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:24:24 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-99-201.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:37 bobbysmith007: re group-by, might be fun for large datasets (: 20:28:00 that was a nice blog post, pkhuong. 20:28:54 -!- sipo [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:29:10 sipo [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:17 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:30:49 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 20:31:05 gigamonkey: I would think porting some subset of Xach's usenet-legend might be a neat alternative to incorporationg Montezeuma like features w/ manifest 20:31:11 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 20:31:12 Noctifer [~Noctifer@82.113.106.113] has joined #lisp 20:32:53 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:42:31 -!- johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-99-39-151-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:43:13 johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-99-31-164-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:55 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:44:35 duomo [~duomo@cpe-67-248-14-24.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:25 drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has joined #lisp 20:58:55 -!- chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:59:00 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.21.249] has joined #lisp 21:00:10 chromati` [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:35 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA31028.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:04:03 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:07:17 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:08:16 ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 21:10:37 mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 21:12:39 marsell [~marsell@120.18.192.245] has joined #lisp 21:12:54 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-384604.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:57 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@64.134.188.7] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:14:12 -!- bearr [~bearr@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Session timeout)] 21:16:20 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:53 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:26:59 -!- _mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:32:36 mon_key: eh? 21:35:08 gigamonkey: apropos bobbysmith007 query w/r/t a manifest search feature. 21:36:29 pkhuong: thanks for the link, will look through that 21:37:21 I got a rough draft of using manifest and montezuma for indexing most common lisp docs. ie: running it on a single package seems to work 21:40:09 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-211-177.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:47 -!- chromati` [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:41:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-143.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:14 chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:36 bobbysmith007: I would imagine w/ any doc indexing scheme the big challenge is what to do when an object is redefined and the docstring changes. 21:48:48 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:50:35 mon_key: I think this is meant for offline usage. Just rebuild the database from time to time. 21:54:13 pkhuong: Sure. Just pointing out that manifest currently handles documenting redefined symbols in a transparent way. 21:54:21 mon_key: yeah, I guess I don't know what the usenet-legends thing is then. 21:56:11 mason [~user@wsip-98-189-9-189.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:22 gigamonkey: was just thinking that leveraging the usenet-legend stuff might be neat b/c it might be possible to correlate user built docstring/keyword indexes against the existing term vector's Xach's C.L.L naggum indexes. 22:06:42 e.g. lets say i have CL-PPCRE loaded in my image and I want to find out how to frob the matches found in a register group. In my fantasy I could search against my current Manifest docstring indexes and have those intersected with Naggum C.L.L term ids (or other similiar such sets) and get a result for: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3174808983514646@naggum.net.html 22:08:21 Vinzent [~Vinzent@31.162.47.71] has joined #lisp 22:17:38 -!- gigamonkey [~user@c-68-35-77-11.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:18:45 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0724.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:26:38 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-87-152-91.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:27:01 -!- felideon [~user@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:29:28 -!- drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:31:43 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 22:37:31 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c39a0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:15 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-45-44.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:41:58 benkard_ [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has joined #lisp 22:43:28 hi 22:44:13 hello prxq :) 22:44:19 -!- benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:44:19 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 22:46:01 hi fe[nl]ix! 22:47:09 -!- ericeatsbrains [~ericeatsb@173-164-222-106-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:47:52 ericeatsbrains [~ericeatsb@173-164-222-106-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:29 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:48:45 <_schulte_> this makes no sense to me https://gist.github.com/1512191 22:49:12 <_schulte_> can anyone recommend a good resource explaining the definition of setf expansions 22:49:26 waveman [~tim@203-214-39-56.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:49:36 _schulte_: setf functions are functions. 22:49:53 What would you expect from (defun it (value x) (setf x value)) ? 22:50:25 <_schulte_> I would think that the value of x would be changed 22:50:51 why ? 22:51:24 <_schulte_> oh 22:52:45 <_schulte_> the values of arguments are passed into functions, rather than pointers to the locations holding the values 22:57:28 -!- chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:01:29 The value of x changes. But x is a parameter of the function it. 23:02:24 benkard_ [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has joined #lisp 23:03:56 pnq [~nick@ACA306B5.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:04:13 benkard__ [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has joined #lisp 23:04:58 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:53 -!- benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:05:53 -!- benkard__ is now known as benkard 23:06:35 <_schulte_> so I first need to de-reference the x parameter and then operate upon the object it points to 23:07:31 -!- benkard_ [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:07:38 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:06 _schulte_: you need to think more about it. 23:08:34 <_schulte_> yes, reading the variables chapter in PCL, surprised this hasn't bitten me before 23:09:59 _schulte_: notice that in (let ((x 42)) (setf x 24)), setf sets X directly, without a need to call any setter function. 23:10:03 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129133131.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:10:54 -!- jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:11:48 In (let ((x (make-something))) (setf (it x) 24) it calls (setf it), but there we don't have a variable named x, but an object (some something), of which we want to set the IT property. 23:12:46 <_schulte_> ok, that does make things more clear 23:12:49 -!- Nauntilus [~Benji@wsip-68-14-222-194.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:13:15 <_schulte_> I guess part of my problem is feeling that I should be able to not just change *some part* of the object passed into the function, but rather replace the object entirely 23:13:39 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14:24 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: reboot] 23:14:41 drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:43 OliverUv [~gandhi@h-91-26.a163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 23:14:54 _schulte_: there's a way to write setf expander, that allows you to change the object entirely. eg. you can write (setf (sin x) 0.4) such as x = (asin 0.4). But it's not too nice. 23:16:04 <_schulte_> ok yes, I've use some bit-twidling versions like the above 23:16:25 <_schulte_> thanks for the clarification, I think the solution here is to not be overly fancy with my setf usage 23:17:02 _schulte_: what do setf expanders fail at? 23:17:46 ah, i see 23:17:47 <_schulte_> prxq: I'm not sure I understand your question 23:17:53 <_schulte_> prxq: ok 23:19:04 i was wondering what you were trying to do but didn't think possible. 23:19:41 <_schulte_> prxq: yea, replace the "root" of an object with a setf expander, rather than just some component of the object 23:20:28 that's what (setf x ...) is for :-) 23:20:45 (setf (foo x) ...) refers to the property foo. 23:21:13 <_schulte_> prxq: thanks, understood 23:22:16 -!- Vinzent [~Vinzent@31.162.47.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:22:17 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:23:08 drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:23 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.108.253] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:26:35 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:27:23 drdo [~drdo@drdo.eu] has joined #lisp 23:27:59 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:30:21 HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db578b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:55 -!- Noctifer [~Noctifer@82.113.106.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:34:05 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.239] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:37:40 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:37:53 You guys are really screwing up this GETHASH stuff ;P 23:38:05 H4ns: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126645#1 23:38:05 huh? 23:38:14 akovalenko: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126646#1 23:38:27 I didn't do oit. 23:38:36 pjb: You did, I think. 23:38:50 08:33:29 Shaftoe: (let ((entry (or (gethash k h) (setf (gethash k h) (new-entry))))) (do-something entry)) 23:39:02 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 23:39:11 That was a specific question. 23:39:48 Hexstream: the point of my "getcache" is (getcache key table (long-running-function)) 23:40:11 akovalenko: My version addresses exactly that, doesn't it? 23:40:15 no 23:40:37 Except it's (getcache key table #'long-running-function) 23:40:47 Hexstream: thanks for the correction. I ended up not using a macro though because I need to do gethash twice exactly. Which is the same thing as just storing the value of gethash in a let variable and then doing an if/else. 23:40:48 aah 23:40:58 akovalenko: Hehe. You actually have to READ ;P 23:41:49 Hexstream: so, I can't use a function as value? Very bad. 23:42:12 akovalenko: Sure, you can. (constantly #'long-running-function). Again, you have to READ. I mentioned that. 23:42:52 well, let's agree to disagree. This surely looks like a function abuse to me. 23:43:03 akovalenko: How?? 23:43:54 function abuse? 23:44:12 The ability to specify a plain value or a function to be called slightly complicates the semantics (instead of only accepting a function), but I feel it's worth it for the massive increase in convenience. 23:45:13 having to pass a function instead of a form is one bad thing (good for schemers, though), being unable to pass a function designator (in functional role) is another one, and CONSTANTLY completes the picture... 23:45:36 well, a function can be a value too, so there will be confusion, unless there is a further constraint 23:46:53 -!- agumonkey [agumonkey@8.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:46:57 akovalenko: It's still much less cognitive load than a macro, overall. 23:47:15 are there no personal distinctions in cognitive loads? 23:47:32 akovalenko: There are good assessments and bad ones ;P 23:48:00 Anyway, I won't twist your arm till you realize that functions have way more straightforward semantics than macros. 23:48:18 For CL, *anything* that won't accept a function designator for a function argument is *definitely wrong* 23:49:16 I'll admit I hadn't thought about that one thing initially. We could just say "symbols are treated as a function". 23:49:45 If you don't like the "confusion" of being able to pass a value directly, that feature can be removed. 23:49:48 like apply does 23:49:54 Hexstream: and I "should" use (constantly :horror) if I want :horror. 23:50:02 akovalenko: Right. 23:50:34 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-FDAAE900.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: gz] 23:50:35 What's a little typing? Sheesh. 23:53:05 How often do you need to use an expensive to compute default, anyway?! In the normal cases you'd just use GETHASH. 23:54:15 I think that's the moral of this story that was concluded a while back: no matter how you do it, from a runtime perspective, it is not possible to do this without calling gethash twice. 23:54:28 now whether you hide that behind a function, or macro call is irrelevant. 23:54:54 My version of "getcache" is not intended for squeezing a nanosecond compared to "gethash"; it's for the case when you _want_ to cache (memoize) things. 23:55:00 This in turn ensures that any implementation worth using will do the key caching :) 23:57:04 (mapcar (constantly :horror) ...) 23:57:35 nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:38 and, btw, my initial query was on whether it was possible to hold a *place* in hand. 23:57:47 which would be the interesting thing to do 23:58:07 Qworkescence: That would be (make-list (length list) :initial-element :horror), more idiomatically, probably. 23:58:44 Shaftoe: Maybe place-utils' WITH-RESOLVED-PLACES is what you're looking for?... 23:58:48 but I suspect holding a place (something setf'able) would leak knowledge of the underlying data structure 23:59:03 Shaftoe: I also have a draft WITH-HASH-TABLE... It's simple and effective. 23:59:05 oh my. trying! 23:59:24 where is place utils? 23:59:32 Shaftoe: In Quicklisp. 23:59:39 -!- nialo- [nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]