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00:12:56 ApeShot [~user@cpe-076-182-098-158.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:36 How do I test if an instance is a specific class (or subclass of that class) in CL? 00:13:49 Something like `isa?` in Clojure. 00:14:25 (typep instance 'class) 00:15:11 Many thanks! 00:15:30 welcome 00:15:58 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 00:17:27 Kvaks [~kvaks@139.158.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 00:17:41 -!- situ [~quassel@85.19.196.186] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:18:57 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.26.192] has joined #lisp 00:19:32 -!- PECCU [~peccu@ZL199013.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:20:08 ApeShot: While typep (and typecase) are useful, it can often mean that you really want to define a method, IMO. 00:24:26 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 00:24:36 -!- k0i [~user@h-91-203.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:24:47 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[~user@184.175.28.107] has joined #lisp 02:58:56 Hello all 03:10:24 Hello 03:13:38 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:13:40 -!- heidymadia [~saasten@fm-ip-61.247.42.167.fast.net.id] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:15:28 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:19:34 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:19:52 ddp [~ddp@93.182.131.6] has joined #lisp 03:24:11 -!- nialo`` [~nialo@ool-18ba45b0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:24:12 stupidest bug ever. Defstruct was overwriting another function of mine. 03:26:38 johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-99-39-151-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:29 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:32:19 -!- ravster [~user@184.175.28.107] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:34:11 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 03:37:08 pnathan [~Adium@98.145.116.190] has joined #lisp 03:44:01 dys` [~andreas@krlh-5f71c074.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:43 -!- christoph_debian [~user@DSL01.212.114.250.148.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:47:43 -!- xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:47:50 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f71d8ba.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:48:56 -!- a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:50:16 christoph_debian [~user@oteiza.siccegge.de] 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DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:39:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:40:02 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.149.255] has joined #lisp 06:40:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.149.255] has quit [Changing host] 06:40:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:40:38 I had that same bug a few weeks ago. 06:40:44 <-- drain bammage 06:47:03 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-26-41.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:54 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-41-199.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:48:07 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 06:49:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-191-57.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:49:59 Hmm, I have a question 06:50:13 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-168.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:50:55 I've been trying to write this program that will parse one file as rules to parse and modify another file 06:50:59 -!- nepnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:52:48 Would cl-ppcre be a good tool for this? 06:53:10 regexps are usually not a good idea for serious parsing. 06:53:30 you could use regexes, but a parser lib like smug would be better. 06:54:25 this topic is also covered in detail in Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming 06:54:36 Is there some library providing destructuring for structures? 06:55:19 Thank you 06:55:46 cl-yacc is awesome if your language is compatible 06:55:49 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-180-220.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:53 I also wonder how I would store the second file in order for it to be given as a result.... 06:56:09 doesn't WITH-ACCESSORS work with structs? 06:56:17 loke: yes. 06:56:17 (This is a sound change applier, much in the vein of Mark Rosenfelder's sounds, VSCA, or Phonix) 06:57:09 Perhaps even WITH-SLOTS works with structs? 06:57:23 not portably, iirc. 06:58:06 Guess i'm off to writing some defstruct wrapper that also defines a destructuring function 06:58:12 The CLHS defines WITH-SLOTS to access "slots", which are in turn defined as "slot n. a component of an object that can store a value." 06:58:22 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.26.192] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 06:58:28 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:58:39 A structure member is, a "component of an object that can store a value", is it not? 06:58:53 So, would I need with-open-file to read the second file, put it into a variable that gets modified by the rules specified in the first file, and then output it to another file 06:59:25 Cosman246: if the rules can be executed in a stream-oriented fasion, I'd skip the middle step. 06:59:37 Hmmm. 06:59:44 Thanks 06:59:53 you should seriously seek out a copy of PAIP 07:00:05 I want to preserve the original file, though....or am I thinking about your comment incorrectly 07:00:10 I will, Faed 07:00:19 you are indeed. 07:00:28 -!- Faed is now known as Fade 07:01:06 the idea is that instead of loading the entire file into memory and operating on the memory, you read the minimum necessary from the stream, operate on that, write it out to your output stream, and repeat 07:01:15 Ah, I see. 07:01:16 Thanks 07:01:56 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 07:01:57 done right, this may make your system able to handle arbitrarily large files, make it easier to debug, and make it more flexible 07:02:12 Thank you 07:02:20 certainly better able to fail early 07:02:39 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:41 Cosman246: basically, build everything around streams in the abstract, not files in particular 07:02:43 marsell [~marsell@120.18.233.172] has joined #lisp 07:02:43 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.206.234] has joined #lisp 07:02:50 ^^^ 07:02:51 Ralith: depending on the file size and the number of disks in the system, it may actually be faster to read and write the whole file in one go. 07:02:52 stream-orientation is a fun paradigm 07:03:02 H4ns: oh sure 07:03:19 computers have rather a lot of memory these days. 07:03:31 and I highly doubt Cosman246 has 4GB+ files 07:03:48 but the other design benefits are worth it, imo. 07:03:49 but if your data is trully huge, then streams are pure win. 07:03:54 and besides, stream-orientation is just fun 07:04:17 fun meaning "a good way to waste time" :) 07:05:07 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-168.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:05:33 do any of you know what this is about: https://github.com/whalliburton/academy/commits/master 07:05:36 ? 07:05:53 I saw that on reddit 07:06:07 me too. it looks like tutorial code without the tutorial. 07:06:19 -!- ayrnieu [~julian@50.15.104.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:06:28 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:06:29 Looks like it's just a collection of random stuff for educational purposes 07:09:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-191-57.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:09:59 gaidal [~gaidal@113.108.132.186] has joined #lisp 07:10:18 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.108.132.186] has quit [Client Quit] 07:12:33 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:14:07 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:15:09 gaidal [~gaidal@113.108.132.186] has joined #lisp 07:16:04 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:16:31 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:19:31 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 07:20:22 is x86_64 really as register poor as x86? 07:20:33 too poor for precise GC? 07:20:41 no. mu. 07:20:58 I was slogging through the sbcl internals wiki 07:21:07 More than twice as many GPRs on x86-64; and some implementations do precise GC on x86. 07:21:14 and wondering why gc isn't precise on the 64 bit variant. 07:21:25 in sbcl 07:21:42 what about precise GC requires numerous registers? 07:21:45 cyrillos [~cyrill@swsoft-msk-nat.sw.ru] has joined #lisp 07:22:14 signal handling for page faults, by my read of the wiki. 07:22:18 Fade: implementation choice. 07:22:45 mh, over my head 07:23:16 Fade: eh? no. The relationship betwen precise GC and GPR count is that an easy way to get precise root scanning is to partition the register set, and potentially the stack as well. 07:24:19 ah. okay. I'm in over my head a bit, hence the questions. 07:27:58 pkhuong: can you suggest any documentation to study the topic? 07:29:52 nostoi [~nostoi@2.Red-80-39-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:59 Fade: are the usual references. 07:30:22 thank you 07:30:36 ccl has some nice reading on that 07:33:09 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.233.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:36:07 -!- sipo [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:36:36 Harag [~phil@41.56.50.213] has joined #lisp 07:37:27 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.206.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:38:22 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-63-71.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:00 well, that concludes my broadcasting day. nite folks 07:40:37 -!- Harag [~phil@41.56.50.213] has left #lisp 07:42:41 Goodnight 07:43:23 -!- dnjaramba_ [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:43:41 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:43:56 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:44:06 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: [ Close the World, Open the nExt ]] 07:45:26 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:45:58 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 07:46:07 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-6.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:46:11 good morning 07:48:17 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 08:02:14 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:08:35 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-99-52.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 08:09:22 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.49.35] has joined #lisp 08:11:40 pon1980 [~pon@195-67-88-105.customer.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:19:02 sacho [~sacho@194.141.26.139] has joined #lisp 08:19:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:19:48 -!- nialo`` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:19:52 YuleAthas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 08:22:19 Man, reading about LOGO brings back fond memories 08:22:26 of elementary school 08:22:54 -!- kanru is now known as ruru 08:23:48 anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has joined #lisp 08:26:33 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 08:27:03 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181130220.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:27:04 kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 08:27:07 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@2.Red-80-39-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:30:42 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:33:13 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:33:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.149.255] has joined #lisp 08:33:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.149.255] has quit [Changing host] 08:33:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:33:55 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:34:12 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:38:20 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:41:06 good morning everyone 08:45:11 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-75-7.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:45:11 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-75-7.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 08:45:11 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 08:46:14 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:46:19 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:46:22 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181130220.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:46:33 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-mgnseamugyqhafum] has joined #lisp 08:47:39 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-155.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:52:06 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:56:16 e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-cwfrxxfexorypjuz] has joined #lisp 08:57:07 morning 09:05:18 ivan-kan` [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 09:06:43 -!- sacho [~sacho@194.141.26.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:07:19 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:12:21 -!- borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:12:39 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:12:52 borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:32 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:17:35 sacho [~sacho@194.141.26.133] has joined #lisp 09:18:06 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:18:57 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:16 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@swsoft-msk-nat.sw.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:24:47 -!- DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@75-163-225-197.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: DaDaDosPrompt] 09:28:49 -!- 31NAAF8RG [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:16 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.93] has joined #lisp 09:35:24 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.131] has joined #lisp 09:37:43 nepnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 09:37:54 -!- sacho [~sacho@194.141.26.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:41:18 waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has joined #lisp 09:41:57 sacho [~sacho@194.141.26.5] has joined #lisp 09:47:55 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:48:44 -!- wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:49:09 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ufidpxvvlpmbvizl] has joined #lisp 09:49:29 -!- sacho [~sacho@194.141.26.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:50:49 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181130220.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:51:47 sacho [~sacho@194.141.26.133] has joined #lisp 09:52:19 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:52:51 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 09:54:14 naiv [~naiv@AAnnecy-651-1-25-84.w86-209.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:54:20 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 09:59:49 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.169.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:01:57 -!- prip [~foo@host159-132-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:02:04 -!- Brendan_T [~Brendan_T@2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fecf:b0fd] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:04:23 -!- YuleAthas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:05:22 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:05:55 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 10:06:24 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:07:08 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 10:08:09 -!- naiv [~naiv@AAnnecy-651-1-25-84.w86-209.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 10:10:07 gensym` [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:27 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-218-179.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 10:12:05 -!- Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:12:52 -!- j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:14:00 Quadresce_ [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 10:14:15 prip [~foo@host41-194-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:15:23 gavinharper [~gavinharp@dyn3-82-128-186-181.psoas.suomi.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:47 I have a story. I know someone who constructs all losys by doing (list '1 '2 '3) or (list '"hello" '"world"). The end 10:16:00 losys? 10:16:06 lists* 10:16:13 (losys?) 10:16:57 I HATE TYPING ON IPHONES XACH. http://pics.roomsapp.mobi/QiDq7QUsYW 10:17:31 -!- ivan-kan` [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:18:09 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.108.132.186] has quit [] 10:18:11 -!- gavinharper [~gavinharp@dyn3-82-128-186-181.psoas.suomi.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:19:12 I bet it's hard to write Lisp code on an iPhone keyboard. 10:20:47 Quadresce_: o.O 10:20:59 do they understand quote 10:21:06 Yes it is. I got remote access to Genera from my phone and thats the worst. 10:21:14 Ralith: guess not 10:25:10 Fade [~fade@66.207.216.43] has joined #lisp 10:25:12 tell apple to use this http://www.strout.net/info/ideas/hexinput.html 10:30:03 -!- tabb0t [~tabb0t@117.196.137.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:32:33 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082A164.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:08 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p50829AA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:36:08 j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:22 -!- teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:44:00 evenson` [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 10:50:39 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.161.88] has joined #lisp 10:52:55 it is probably easier to write lisp than any other language to the the () being more likely to be available than {} or [] ... 10:54:18 YuleAthas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:57:08 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:57:41 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.161.88] has left #lisp 10:58:43 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.161.88] has joined #lisp 10:59:18 -!- sacho [~sacho@194.141.26.133] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:01:15 It's likely that that's completely irrelevant to anyone who can type. 11:01:56 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:02:04 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 11:02:10 But it's amusing to see confused syntax propaganda from the other side. 11:03:56 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:04:06 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:04:08 sorry, i missed out on the context. talking about typing lisp on a phone 11:04:47 Just a pity about all of the # and ' and - characters. 11:04:58 Zhivago: which propaganda are you reffering to? 11:05:12 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 11:05:14 The usual 'parenthese confuse me'. 11:06:06 -!- Ragnaroek_ is now known as Ragnaroek 11:07:08 no, it's more "non-parentheses groupers are less likely to be found on simplified keyboards" 11:07:59 *Phoodus* recalls poking the keyboard on his N800 before buying a bluetooth keybard 11:08:16 -!- waveman [~tim@203-214-39-56.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:09:02 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:09:35 Zhivago: just ask them if they know the precendence table of java http://bmanolov.free.fr/javaoperators.php off hand 11:10:24 eMBee: on webos, try lisp addict 11:12:14 urandom__: interesting fact about arguing about programming languages, reason is of lesser importance. 11:12:16 madnificent: did you read my blog post on bknr datastore schema evolution yet? (http://netzhansa.blogspot.com/2008/08/schema-evolution-made-easy.html) 11:12:23 iDespera` [~user@120.85.227.6] has joined #lisp 11:13:49 H4ns: i think i have skimmed over it in the past, but no. i'm putting it on the backlog :) thanks 11:14:16 -!- iDesperadO [~user@58.248.238.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:14:18 the nice thing about lisp is, sometimes, that the half-life of available information is much higher 11:14:26 Brendan_T [~Brendan_T@repo.parabolagnulinux.org] has joined #lisp 11:14:45 madnificent: actually, it augments the documentation. the store has specific hooks to support schema evolution at snapshot restore time. i'm glad i have written that down. 11:15:31 ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.70] has joined #lisp 11:16:00 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-amhmxpekpmqycowc] has left #lisp 11:18:20 H4ns: i still like the idea of migrations as it explicits the data conversion. 11:18:23 -!- Fade [~fade@66.207.216.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:18:54 the blog post was shorter than expected and was well-written, so i got through it immediately. 11:19:10 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:19:17 some links seem to be dead though 11:19:23 -!- j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:19:27 madnificent: the last one in particular. i'll probably remove that. 11:19:44 yup 11:20:50 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-109-64-201-102.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:21:08 i think i'd like for some way to explicit how the classes should evolve between different versions. a way of installing and upgrading the model one way or another. i have absolutely no idea how i'd like for it to work though. but the current system has quite a lot of 'this will magically work' and for data, i find that relatively scary. 11:21:34 you could also link to the relevant commit on github, no? 11:21:58 i just looked up the commit and will change the link 11:22:12 \o/ 11:22:29 it is very nice that the post itself is still very relevant 11:22:48 with respect to explicit migrations: i don't think i'll work on that, as i have no need for it, but if you do, i'll try to help with comments. 11:22:53 marsell [~marsell@120.18.197.166] has joined #lisp 11:24:20 it'll certainly not be something i'll do on the short run. but if i figure out how i would like for it to be specified, i might. it's nice that the latest current version of the classes is available in the store. 11:25:53 it's good to know that you aren't explicitly against it though 11:26:34 i'm curious as to what you plan to propose :) 11:27:08 i mean, the mop has all the hooks, but i don't quite see how to coordinate loading the old and new class definitions in an automated manner. 11:28:09 my thought was that to implement such a system propably, one would want to have access to the different versions of the class definitions from lisp. 11:28:24 me neither, nor how i would like to write it down. you'd /want/ to only specify what the diff is between the current version and the new version and then get a dump of the new version. i don't know. 11:30:00 yes indeed, you'd need to specify how to move from old to new one way or another. and it probably shouldn't just be on a per-class basis, you might want to split or join classes. though the set of possible operations isn't arbitrary big. 11:30:15 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:30:43 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:48 Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 11:31:06 right. it grows as you chew it. and in practice, i found the mechanism that i used to be good enough for my purposes (i.e. i'm running one-of-a-kind systems and all my upgrades are attended) 11:31:23 H4ns: actually, having the previous version might not need to be that hard. if the last version is logged, then the class itself could be stored in a hash. but then again, you'd want access to the old methods etc as well... it's complex, at best. 11:31:33 j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:47 depending on the migration, what you need in order to perform the change also isn't necessarily a 1:1 mapping of old objects to new 11:31:59 Phoodus: indeed 11:32:08 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:32:14 if you move information from one object to another, you'd have to actually find the other object given just the first 11:32:47 so you need more information, or the ability to query all the (pre-converted) datastore, given one instance 11:33:01 right. these are operations that i usually implement with just plain lisp code. it is not that hard. 11:33:09 *Phoodus* has dealt with significant issues like this in a rule-based system, which in some ways is easier 11:33:58 Phoodus: i think it makes sense to tackle the problem the way it's tackled in ralis with migrations. you basically have the old 'store' and you want to convert the schema and its data to the new store. the best option is likely to have two complete stores available, but in rails it operates on a single database. 11:33:59 having runtime schema migration in a program with many clients connected, without disconnecting, and having their UIs update to new models is really nice :) 11:34:21 H4ns: i think it's correct to handle it in plain lisp-code though. why limit your expressivity 11:34:27 -!- Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Cryotank2011] 11:35:47 madnificent: that is what i said. what our mechanism does is allow you to run old snapshots with new class definitions. for fully migrating the schema, i run more code after having loaded the old store, then snapshot. 11:35:49 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-183-66-160.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:49 Phoodus: but that might be overkill. i mean, it's not that bad to have an application offline for a short time for some major upgrade. however, i believe it could be possible to do the migration live, even if you'd make two completely separate stores and translate from the old one to the new one. 11:36:17 madnificent: while it's not a usual case for deployment, it is pure undiluted awesome during development 11:36:19 H4ns: the 'correct' thing would be to have the old snapshot with the old code for the objects in the snapshot, no? 11:36:25 Joreji [~thomas@94-157.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:36:28 Phoodus: true 11:36:57 and the capability to fix deployed users bugs right before their eyes is also incredible 11:36:59 madnificent: that would be a way, but then you'd have to load the new class definitions as part of the migration process. certainly possible, but more complex. 11:37:16 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:38:08 Phoodus: that works already, i've fixed bugs in a sales applications whilst sales were being made. really really awesome (scary) fun! 11:38:28 yep 11:38:49 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:39:05 I've been on the phone with people who are looking at a form, saying how it's wrong, and while they're still on the phone it pops to correctness 11:39:06 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:39:32 (well, skype, but you get the idea) 11:40:00 H4ns: the main reason for doing so would be security, i guess. it's a simple system to grok from an end-user point of view. you 'know' you'll be able to fix it, as in the worst case scenario you'll translate all data from OLD to NEW manually. regardless of how much the schema has evolved. i do think it's possible, but it'll be rather complex as you'll have to cope with the definition of methods and possible redefinition of generic 11:40:00 functions. i don't even know how i'd start. 11:40:14 it still is a lot of work to get to that point, especially/mostly on the client side, though. But having done it, working on making better patterns & libraries to handle that sort of stuff is a definite goal 11:40:51 they did have to refresh the page still, right? or have you made it even sweeter? 11:40:55 -!- Quadresce_ [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has left #lisp 11:40:59 no refresh 11:41:17 declarative programming; you define something differently, its effects trickle out 11:41:37 sweet 11:41:47 the client is in flash, though, not raw web page. It was the only reasonable way to get a real socket 11:41:48 any specific libraries you used? 11:41:59 ah yeah, that's changing rapidly 11:42:00 but now html5 is making that a lot easier 11:42:55 I wish there were smarter client-side libs on the Flash side of things. Everything we've tried HATES having tree structure changed while the tree is onscreen 11:43:41 but unless you go native UI and lose ease of deployment, most UI libs suck 11:44:24 flash is out, html5 is in. though i'm not so certain that it's a vast improvement (feel free to take a look at the svg spec for instance) 11:44:49 yeah, we're desparate to get to html5, but we've got some other pressing issues first 11:45:21 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 11:45:57 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-155.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:46:00 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 11:46:58 what is the main features in lisp that makes you stick with the language ? macros ? functional programming ? something else 11:47:23 the main advantage of html5 over flash is that it not in control of one single company, giving interested parties a better chance to fix any perceived problems, whereas with flash we are at the mercy of adobe 11:48:19 kilon: yes, plus speed 11:48:52 kilon: it doesn't get in my way when thinking about something. i also know that i can think at an extremely high level and go down to a much lower level if speed becomes an issue (though even on its high level, it can perform quite well). 11:48:56 kilon: simplicity of syntax, the ability to have a highly dynamic language while still being able to produce machine code. 11:48:57 there are slower, more capable languages out there; and faster, less capable languages out there; Lisp has plenty of both 11:49:15 *eMBee* nods 11:49:16 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-183-66-160.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:49:18 Phoodus: sorry, i haven't seen more capable languages :) 11:49:43 well, depending on your particular field, and the hypothetical remains ;) 11:49:45 i mean, i've seen many claim that they are more capable, but i haven't seen any language that is a superset of common lisp, not by far 11:50:09 granted, there are many things in CL that most people never touch, so a strict superset isn't necessarily useful 11:50:46 "what do you mean, ML doesn't have symbol plists?!" 11:51:04 for shame! 11:51:15 Phoodus: it's not because i haven't touched something with my current experience that i don't intend to touch on it later :) 11:51:34 given that most things in CL comes from very 'basic' things in original lisp, any language not having those 'advanced' features probably lack one of the 'simple' lisp features that makes everything else possible 11:51:44 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:08 koollman: like ratio number types? yeah, much of CL rests on that ;) 11:52:09 kilon: that's another thing. you know how you can master and outgrow a language? lisp has cought my interest longer than any other language. there's always something new to learn and in many cases it's something i really wouldn't have expected to see in another language :) 11:52:11 tabb0t [~tabb0t@117.196.137.71] has joined #lisp 11:52:17 Phoodus: yes! :) 11:52:53 koollman: have you ever read the lisp 1.5 manual? some modern industrial languages could learn from it. 11:53:01 Phoodus: think about how they were implemented initially (lets avoid the why ;) ) 11:53:51 madnificent: yes. it's my point. assuming that some 'advanced' CL features not implemented in some X language isn't needed often mask the fact that some basic lisp feature isn't in X language too 11:55:00 koollman: I don't quite see it. Ratios are a basic structure with ties into many math ops, but not much I can think of requires ratios 11:55:31 Phoodus: sure. but, let say they weren't defined in CL. and you needed them. you could add them and make them part of the syntax 11:55:58 if some other language doesn't define them... it's fine. But is it possible to make them part of the language once defined? 11:56:49 one could argue C++ has enough overloading to constitute language extension; prolog has some infix and prefix language altering stuff... 11:57:17 but I once redefined CL:EQUALP, can't quite do that in other languages ;) 11:57:39 I would say it's (any) lisp most important feature. 11:57:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-155.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:58:29 ability to extend the 'core' language and making your additions part of the 'regular syntax', not something awkwardly different from the defined keywords 11:58:46 -!- jlaire [~jlaire@a88-115-181-148.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:59:31 Relentlessly mediocre syntax. 11:59:53 jlaire [~jlaire@a88-115-181-148.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 11:59:56 Phoodus: in C++, you can do a lot of overloading, but you may have a hard time defining an conditionnal operator similar to if 12:00:07 koollman: it's not because it has become an industry accepted practice to ignore numerical rounding, that it should be. furthermore, it may solve the issue of numerical instability with some algorithms. when calculating the total sales for an app i built working with floats did yield a measurable difference in some cases. 12:00:49 koollman: but in prolog, I believe you could 12:01:08 I don't know prolog enough to be sure of that. but it's possible, yes 12:01:29 erlang also has AST transforms of some type, but the input is constrained to be already-valid erlang 12:01:51 if you want ugly syntax, try working with erlang for a while ;) 12:01:58 punctuation EVERYWHERE 12:02:19 I work with erlang from time to time :) 12:02:33 we finally dropped it. It's way too static of a language 12:02:39 and it's not extensible syntax, at all, I would say. 12:03:14 it's got some great ideas, though. One of those languages to learn lessons from, not necessarily use 12:03:55 yes. It also was interesting when I was learning it ... finding a language that was agreeing with my previous modular program designs :) 12:04:44 yes, I've done a ton of threaded programming, and agreed with the separation thinking. The supervision & migration are great ideas, but horribly clunky in actual use 12:05:03 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.161.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:05:13 and an unfortunate side effect of its process-specific heaps is that you cannot do threaded analysis over shared immutable data 12:05:22 I had helped design a project composed of modules exchanging messages and their relations were configured 'out' of the core code, and about 4 months later I read about erlang message-passing, communicating processes, OTP and everything 12:06:22 (the project was ... in C++, with threading, and running on linux/bsd/windows. quite horrible to do the initial 'plumbing' ... erlang was very nice in comparison :) ) 12:06:46 yeah, we had a great multi-platform C++ lib built up back in the days 12:06:58 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.161.88] has joined #lisp 12:07:19 looking back, it's all so silly compared to lisp ;) 12:07:30 having to manually manage all that crap 12:08:27 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-63-71.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:13:36 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-218-179.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:16:23 sorry something came up and could not reply, i will reply sortly 12:16:27 [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 12:19:04 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:50 bbommarito [~bbommarit@c-76-100-61-229.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:28:38 why lispers use still cad and cdr and other variation instead of something more readable ? assuming macros can easily create extensions to those 12:28:45 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.197.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:28:53 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has joined #lisp 12:29:08 kilon: because we got used to the traditional names. 12:29:18 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:29:30 thanks for the answers by the way, i read all of them 12:29:36 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: [ Close the World, Open the nExt ]] 12:29:43 kilon: and we also use first and rest. many consider car/cdr to be only appropriate when dealing with cons trees. 12:30:17 why macros allow for syntax that avoids the use of parentheses when parentheses plays such a vital role in lisp ? 12:30:33 car/cdr are a bit shorter to type, and conceptually they're closer than first/rest 12:30:34 kilon: lisp is not about disallowing things. 12:31:07 as they're general named fields. first/rest are only one usage 12:31:09 ok so its all about complete freedom 12:31:32 kilon: it is not "about" that, but it is a general theme, yes. 12:32:01 a lists can extend in both directions or all directions ? that explains the need for first, last etc ? 12:32:03 though I'll always use second and third rather than cadr/caddr/etc 12:32:20 it's a singly-linked list 12:32:29 'last' is a relatively expensive function 12:33:07 i guess that explains the ability to have circular lists too 12:33:18 very interesting stuff 12:33:27 it does force you free up your mind 12:33:57 sometimes I'll use cons cells as cheap 2-tuple structures, or even as mutable containers in speed-sensitive code 12:34:25 but cons cell are more expensive in cpu than an array right ? 12:34:37 I doubt it 12:34:41 Okay, I have a silly question, what technically is a 'cons tree'? 12:34:44 kilon: it depends on the purpose 12:34:44 cons cells are typically the most optimized data structure in lisp 12:35:10 though if you load up the declarations, array element access is cheap, but I don't know how big the headers get 12:35:35 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:35:35 bbommarito: if you have cons cells, you have two places in which you can put an object. you could look at the nodes of the tree as a cell which contains other cons cells and the leaves as the values in the tree :) 12:35:40 i think I read it on Land of Lisps that arrays are faster 12:35:41 bbommarito: each node in the tree is a branching node, with 2 branches 12:35:54 but I am not sure 12:35:56 car & cdr would correspond to left & right or something 12:36:07 kilon: you probably read that single element access to arrays is faster than single element access to lists 12:36:15 yes 12:36:19 that's it 12:36:23 Think of it as being a first class directed association between two things. 12:36:28 if you want the Nth element of a sequence, it's faster to hit an element than traverse cons cells 12:36:33 ApeShot [~user@cpe-076-182-098-158.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:36:35 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:36:41 s/hit an element/hit an array/ 12:36:46 kilon: again, it depends on the purpose. if you have a flat list of data and you know you won't insert data in it somewhere in between and you know the size up front etc etc, then an array is likely going to be more efficient. we have arrays extremely good support for arrays though and we use them often (but mostly only when needed) 12:36:47 Is there a way to run some code every time an object is garbage collected? 12:36:52 (cons 'a 'b) relates a to b. 12:36:59 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 12:37:22 kilon: also, i can almost write sentences 12:37:29 ApeShot: pretty sure that's not in the standard, so check your specific lisp implementation 12:37:34 ouch 12:37:47 Okay, I see. I am somewhat new to Lisp. I have been working with elisp for about 5 years now, but have started delving far deeper into CL, especially CLOS 12:37:49 ApeShot: also, i haven't found it in other languages either and it's a feature i'd love to hae. 12:37:55 s/hae/have/ 12:37:57 madnificent: what you mean ? 12:38:03 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:38:47 I'm pretty sure something like it is in Lua 12:38:55 And I know I've seen it in other languages somewhere 12:39:09 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 12:39:10 got to go 12:39:12 java has per-object finalizers, but not a general function that gets all finalized objects, iirc 12:39:18 thanks for the answers they helped alot 12:39:25 It has finalization methods. 12:39:33 That can resurrect objects. 12:39:33 Phoodus: and iirc, the finalizers don't *need* to be called, but you can call them. 12:39:39 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@143.93.53.41] has joined #lisp 12:39:41 But only get called at most once. 12:39:44 kilon: with what? with respect to arrays: lisp has rather advanced support for arrays. but they're not always what you need :) 12:39:57 -!- kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:40:21 madnificent: since (common) lisp lacks a persistent array type, I'd argue the support for arrays is only good if you are comfortable with side effects. 12:40:35 I don't use arrays often, but when I do I'm always annoyed that the #(...) syntax doesn't eval the contents 12:40:39 ApeShot: do we lack a persistent array type? 12:41:02 I think he means 'functional array type'. 12:41:11 "persistent" is the technically correct term 12:41:14 Fortunately, lisp is procedural. 12:41:18 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:41:29 though obviously overloaded with storage use 12:41:36 Phoodus: well, if you need that I't quite easy to build it yourself :-) 12:41:54 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:42:03 Whatever, bros - functional arrays and maps are sweeet. 12:42:13 They are my favorite feature in clojure. 12:42:19 yeah, I've got a functional hashmap in CL, but not functional arrays 12:42:33 Phoodus: how is it implementation 12:42:36 implemented? 12:42:43 idunno, stole it from somewhere else and ported ;) 12:43:23 ah, I think I ported erlang's gb_tree implementation 12:43:48 tried some reference AVL code first, but it seemed to be systemically broken 12:44:15 I just ported srfi-101 to emacs lisp and built persistent maps on top of it 12:44:27 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:44:27 then I wrapped another use around that, which did hashing, using the hashes for keys instead of the raw objects 12:45:09 I'm not really a data structure dude so I have trouble figuring out how a persistent map not based on a random-access persistent list could work 12:45:23 I just realized I can use a weak table to accomplish the thing which prompted this question 12:45:33 the erlang port is actually pretty fast 12:45:54 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 12:46:02 no noticeable full-program slowdown compared to the hash-table one from before, at least in our usage 12:46:15 sacho [~sacho@92-247-208-87.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 12:46:19 awesome 12:46:21 it allows some threshold of imbalance before bothering to rebalance 12:46:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-155.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:46:54 I really don't understand its inner workings; needed something quickly and the port worked 12:47:33 It is kind of sad that nice functional data types often have very messy, low level implementations 12:47:43 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-155.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:47:44 But then again, something has to be low level, ultimately 12:47:48 optimized == messy 12:48:03 a-lists == clean, slow 12:48:11 but they'll do pretty much everything :) 12:48:19 Of course most a lists map only two to three keys 12:48:32 Which means they are just as fast as persistent hash maps most of the time 12:48:45 depending on how you use them 12:48:50 they aren't type safe 12:48:55 They look like lists 12:48:57 I don't like that 12:49:08 I like my data objects to have separate types 12:49:10 I've outgrown typesafety 12:49:32 Funny, I feel like I've outgrown not caring about it 12:49:47 I want my runtime to tell me something useful if I use a piece of data in the wrong place 12:50:02 your runtime or your compiler? 12:50:07 just the runtime 12:50:14 It doesn't have to happen at compile time 12:50:19 oh, you mean an a-list being listp is a problem. gotcha 12:50:26 not that its contents are arbitrarily typed 12:50:32 No 12:51:02 (defun table-keys (tbl) (mapcar #'car tbl)) is a pun 12:51:06 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 12:51:07 And puns _aren't funny_ 12:51:19 huh? 12:51:59 What I mean is that the implementation is pretty opaque because its formed entirely of low level list operations 12:52:07 right, there is no a-list-p 12:52:19 I'm a big fan of pattern matching 12:52:25 And alists look like lists there too 12:52:48 (defstruct table raw-alist) 12:53:05 simple, clear, slow implementation, allows a typecheck on table 12:53:57 and trivial to use functionally 12:55:11 It isn't that slow, really 12:55:35 You just add one more dereference on read and one more allocation on functional update 12:55:38 -!- gensym` [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:55:38 Neban [~neban@130.Red-83-33-84.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:42 hc96 [~user@w4804.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 12:57:57 ApeShot: when i hear you talk, i hear someone who wants to have everything corporate java has, regardless of the benefits of other approaches. feel free to take that to #java 12:58:11 Lisp is for hippies. 12:58:30 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.35.35] has joined #lisp 12:58:51 madnificent: are you kidding? 12:58:51 ApeShot: what's slow is lookups & the functional modification with trimming 12:58:57 Is there a hippy java to go with corporate java? 12:59:00 ApeShot: no 12:59:15 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 12:59:16 madnificent: well, then you have a very truncated understanding of programming languages 12:59:20 sacho: Javascript. 12:59:35 Honestly, I love Lisp more than any other language 12:59:49 But if you want to pidgeon hole me, then do me as a Haskell type dude. 12:59:55 madnificent: I fail to see the association between functional data structures and java... 12:59:56 ApeShot: sure, i do. please don't trouble my brain with your non-issues. 13:00:18 I prefer elegant, formal structures not corporate mediocrity enforcement. 13:01:00 The fact that Type Safety makes you think of Java suggests you don't know much about type safety. 13:01:18 Phoodus: the mindset hints me at it. the concept of "it is not exactly what i have now, so i'll dislike it". for instance "yes, but alists aren't typechecked", or "but it's slower" or "but it's only marginally slower" (in the other case). 13:01:28 It makes me think of type erasure. 13:01:32 madnificent: but you are right at least in the capacity that it is kind of trivial 13:01:44 madnificent: people build functioning software in Perl, after all 13:02:07 madnificent: it is a real problem, if you have a function that can/should act differently on lists & associative maps, if the latter are held as a-lists 13:02:09 madnificent: so it boils down in some ultimate sense to style, with some minor adjustments in productivity, certainly 13:02:37 Phoodus: yes, i understand the problem. if you need types, use clos :) 13:03:29 ...right, which is what was said, if defstruct counts well enough 13:03:33 But clos is about classes, not types. 13:03:34 The thing is, we almost always have types implicitly in mind as we program 13:03:43 johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-99-39-151-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:53 Phoodus: and it is trivially solved. if you're throwing around data and you don't know what that data means in your application then you should seriously consider thinking about the code before writing it :) 13:04:00 And we are often telling ourselves "I should be writing some type checking here so that this funciton isn't called with the wrong sorts of arguments." 13:04:03 types in the interface/duck-type sense maybe, not in the OO-type sense 13:04:15 ApeShot: i might obviously be wrong, but chances are rather high that i know more about types than you do. no offense. 13:04:44 Phoodus: Sounds like ad hoc interfaces rather than types. 13:04:49 ApeShot: you have heard about methods, right? 13:05:09 madnificent: why no madnificent what are these magical methods? 13:05:12 as in: the common lisp generic methods etc 13:05:23 Zhivago: yeah, I meant that to ApeShot, in the sense of what is in mind when coding 13:05:45 Of course I know about CLOS and generic methods 13:05:47 the generalities of types, not the language notion of types 13:05:49 ApeShot: that was a rhoetorical question :) 13:05:59 rhetorical 13:06:02 Anybody understanding the internals of asdf well here? 13:06:13 -!- phryk [~phryk@84.200.208.215] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 13:06:26 Anyway, I'm sorry if I was a bit snappish about it all. I don't like to be accused of being a java programmer. 13:06:27 angavrilov: the people who understand it best read the asdf-devel list but aren't often here. 13:06:37 I didn't meant o let the atmosphere in here get argumentative 13:06:55 As I said above, these things are largely a matter of taste, for which there is no accounting, I'm told. 13:07:03 I have to head out - we'll talk later about this. 13:07:09 Xach: I want to know the easiest way to stop it from ever trying to load a certain system from disk, or looking at disk for it at all. 13:07:15 yes 13:07:19 -!- ApeShot [~user@cpe-076-182-098-158.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:07:40 Xach: The reason being, the system is already in the heap image, and the image can be on a different computer with sources. 13:07:43 -!- Joreji [~thomas@94-157.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:07:47 *without sources 13:12:41 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:09 -!- tabb0t [~tabb0t@117.196.137.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:18:47 tabb0t [~tabb0t@117.196.150.255] has joined #lisp 13:19:04 mlkith [~mlkith@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 13:19:59 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:22:51 alexandria is nice. are there any other libraries like that one should know about? I reinvented a lot of wheels from alexandria before finding out about it 13:23:27 -!- whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yhzzgzhumtxvslek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:23:27 -!- incandenza [u726@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dvalhnffhplpjpaz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:23:51 steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:26:22 -!- bbommarito [~bbommarit@c-76-100-61-229.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:26:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:28:03 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181130220.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:28:46 lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has joined #lisp 13:28:46 mlkith: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/12/project-download-stats-for-november.html might give you an idea of what is popular 13:29:08 not lisp-specific, but emacs has been having real issues with not scrolling text buffers correctly, leaving visually unscrolled lines where they shouldn't be 13:29:15 am I the only one with this problem? 13:29:23 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 13:30:03 Phoodus: emacs with x or with a terminal emulator? 13:30:13 x 13:30:30 Phoodus: are you using emacsclient with a daemon? 13:30:35 Phoodus: I have the same issue 13:30:49 straight emacs running on a local ubuntu desktop 13:32:05 it happens maybe 3-5 times a day 13:32:34 (or more, never measured it, but I always fear overestimating things that annoy me) 13:32:51 felideon thanks 13:34:28 dlowe: do you have a large display? I notice some general scrolling issues in other programs that might be related to size 13:36:45 whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ywpdgfjinebkusre] has joined #lisp 13:38:14 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 13:39:32 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:40:02 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:46:14 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.35.35] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 13:46:50 -!- SeanTAllen [~SeanTAlle@cpe-98-14-83-126.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: SeanTAllen] 13:47:25 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:55 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:48:16 -!- eat-a-kibble [~kristerfl@c71695AC1.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:52:23 typing (progn (asdf:load-system :system) (in-package :system)) in the repl gives me ":system package does not exist" error. is there a way to make it work, with clever use of eval-when around load-system or something? 13:53:04 mlkith: Why would you want it to work? 13:53:09 doesn't in-package run at read-time? 13:53:10 -!- johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-99-39-151-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Nodding off now.] 13:53:18 curiosity 13:53:34 mlkith: I can't think of a way or a reason to make it work. 13:54:05 mlkith: you probably want to load something and then use it, right? 13:54:06 if you do (setf *package* (find-package :system)),I think that would work 13:54:37 mlkith: i usually have a load.lisp that is not compiled and that performs the required steps on the top level. that way, i can use symbols that are only defined by preceding forms. 13:57:00 mlkith: also, it's not a requirement that a package is named the same as the system 13:57:34 yeah, I've got helpers in my .sbclrc, and they all use (setf *package* ..) 13:58:32 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-209-2-224-131.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 13:58:36 mlkith: set sb-ext:*evaluator-mode* to :interpret 13:59:37 also putting (eval-when () around the load-sytem should work, too 13:59:49 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 14:00:03 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:01:31 thanks all. I thought eval-when should work too, but it didn't. I guess I don't yet fully understand how it works. (progn (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (asdf:load-system :system)) (in-package :system)) 14:02:04 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:44 try (progn #.(asdf:load-system :system) (in-package :system)) 14:03:55 there is no eval-when for read, therefore in-package will not be evaluated at the right time (but does #.(in-package :system) work, perhaps?) 14:04:51 ? 14:05:16 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:05:37 ah #. did make it work. what does that do? 14:06:24 it evaluates the piece of code at read-time 14:07:19 behrat [~Adium@c-50-129-134-190.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:01 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:08:47 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.187.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:11:05 mlkith: where does this code live? 14:11:06 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 14:11:25 (in-package ..) may or may not be doing what you expect depending on the context 14:11:31 and using #. is almost always wrong 14:11:35 Noctifer [~Noctifer@89.204.153.225] has joined #lisp 14:14:46 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:15:00 why is using #. almost always wrong? 14:15:13 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 14:15:32 because your read-time context may not be set up yet 14:15:36 mikecsh [~mikecsh@203.145.92.117] has joined #lisp 14:15:52 it's much better to do things at runtime, compile-time if you need to work with code transforms 14:16:33 if you use #. within a defun, then you can't call that behavior 14:16:43 it's just "done" when the file is read 14:17:05 and there's really no option _not_ to run the #.'d code 14:17:27 (unless you muck with the reader, but when loading source that's rarely done) 14:17:39 *loke* uses #. to globally set declaimation optimisation levels 14:17:45 I don't know if there's a better way 14:18:09 (declaim #.*global-optimisation-level*) 14:18:20 I use a defconstant, with a macroexpansion in each file for completeness 14:18:48 (defmacro my-declaim () `(declaim ,*global-optmisation-level*)) would do the same thing 14:19:03 Oh 14:19:06 yeah, that's better 14:19:16 I call mine (optimize-file) 14:19:43 I have a problem... 14:20:40 don't yous Perl, you'll have two problems. 14:21:08 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:21:11 I'm using a library (spartns) which has a macro (defspartn) that expands into a bunch of defun's and other stuff. The problem is that during its expansion, the expanded code causes something like 18 different warnings and compiler notes. How can I muffle these for this invocation only? 14:21:54 joast [~rick@76.178.187.164] has joined #lisp 14:22:23 loke: does defspartn allow declarations as the first form? 14:22:36 jdz: no 14:22:41 it does't have a mody 14:22:43 body 14:23:18 oh wait... it has a :declare keyword parameter that allows me to add declarations 14:23:21 neat 14:23:39 -!- whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ywpdgfjinebkusre] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24:38 gavinharper [~gavinharp@dyn3-82-128-186-181.psoas.suomi.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:26 so what do you have to add there to shut down warnings? 14:25:32 in declaration 14:26:02 udzinari [~user@27.25.broadband12.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 14:26:17 that's my second question 14:26:34 (sb-ext:muffle-conditions warning) seems to have shut up all but one 14:27:02 It's a warning about an unused variable 14:27:33 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:27:50 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 14:29:16 loke: those are usually the easiest ones 14:29:32 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:29:48 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 14:29:56 yeah, but I can't figure out what parameter to pass to muffle-conditions to hide that one 14:30:34 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:38 oh wait... damn it 14:30:42 why not get rid of the unused variable instead? 14:30:43 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 14:30:49 jdz: because it's not in my code 14:31:07 it's in a 3'rd party library I installed from QL and I don't want to muck aroung with it 14:31:10 around 14:31:25 Just watched gigamonkey's manifest video  very cool. 14:31:28 loke: complain to the author/maintainer 14:31:39 oh yes, I intend to :-) 14:33:31 -!- drdo [~user@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:34:21 ayrnieu [~julian@50.15.104.42] has joined #lisp 14:35:02 CrazyEddy [~uricolysi@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:35:51 sellout: any links? 14:36:04 sellout: run it through quicklisp, takes 60 seconds and gives you a good impression :) 14:36:39 whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qrbnawmsphqeljtb] has joined #lisp 14:37:09 jtza8: planet.lisp.org 14:37:10 dcguru [~chatzilla@66.129.60.130] has joined #lisp 14:37:24 *jtza8* facepalms :) 14:37:35 Thanks 14:38:51 *H4ns* is tempted to use progv for the second time in his life. 14:39:39 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:39:45 -!- hc96 [~user@w4804.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:39:46 but now *phew* 14:40:27 H4ns: what an odd thing #'progv is 14:40:28 [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 14:40:36 madnificent: very much so. 14:40:39 and it's not even #' 14:41:09 could you paste where you'd want to use it in practice? i really can't imagine a use-case 14:42:10 madnificent: no. i decided i'll go with a lambda instead. i thought i would want to come up with a list of bindings at runtime (binding variables to columns that are the result of an sql query). 14:43:02 at least other people will understand lambda 14:44:56 hc96 [~user@w4804.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 14:49:19 ivan-kan` [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 14:49:21 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:24 -!- ivan-kan` [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:46 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-155.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:22 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.35.35] has joined #lisp 14:51:06 silenius [~silenius@i59F73F34.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:51:19 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.26.192] has joined #lisp 14:52:58 incandenza [u726@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xpktbrjuujtmvqvk] has joined #lisp 14:53:39 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-319533.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:53:41 antifuchs: In case you are there, thanks, dpans2texi worked great on Windows. 14:55:00 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:55:15 madnificent: I have used progv to provide restarts / values for template evaluation where there are unbound variables in the template 14:55:39 not sure if that is correct, but it allowed more graceful handling than simple failure 14:55:43 -!- gavinharper [~gavinharp@dyn3-82-128-186-181.psoas.suomi.net] has quit [] 14:55:57 -!- lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:23 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:58:52 Evil_Piccolo [~Namek@ip-83-212-223-110.adsl.aueb.gr] has joined #lisp 15:01:34 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:02:55 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:03:22 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177890176.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 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15:17:08 -!- gavinharper [~gavinharp@dyn3-82-128-186-181.psoas.suomi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:21:28 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 15:22:47 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:25:45 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:26:02 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 15:27:45 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:30:26 rme [~rme@50.43.147.52] has joined #lisp 15:30:37 I replaced a (cdr ) to (gethash ) and my runtime speed went from 5 minutes to 3 minutes. hmm 15:32:38 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-209-2-224-131.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:34:02 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 15:35:29 xjrn [~chatzilla@c-67-174-244-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:34 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:37:39 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@203.145.92.117] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 15:40:15 -!- tabb0t [~tabb0t@117.196.150.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:41:42 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-117-61.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:43:09 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177890176.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:44:37 sipo [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:34 -!- evenson` [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:47:46 madnificent: if you are interested, here is the handler/restart with progv used to provide values to unbound variables, https://github.com/AccelerationNet/talcl/blob/master/src/compile.lisp#L429 15:51:28 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 9.0/20111206234556]] 15:54:12 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:54:29 mathrick__ 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[~super@host214-143-dynamic.18-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 16:55:18 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.81] has joined #lisp 16:55:19 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:55:29 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.113.242] has joined #lisp 16:56:27 m-x doctor is my friend. 16:56:31 we are friends. 16:56:48 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:56:53 -!- xjrn [~chatzilla@c-67-174-244-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:57:00 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:57:22 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:57:30 -!- e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-cwfrxxfexorypjuz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:58:33 we talk about all kinds of things. 16:58:55 doctor's favorite color is green, apparently. 16:59:04 johnstorey [~johnstore@12.208.167.194] has joined #lisp 16:59:06 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.113.242] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:59:13 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.113.242] has joined #lisp 16:59:22 and doctor like eggs benedict. 16:59:42 leino [~leino@d85-194-250-179.cust.wlannet.com] has joined #lisp 16:59:46 zmyrgel [~user@hoasb-ff0cdd00-22.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:01:55 s/like/likes/ 17:05:44 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.113.242] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:06:06 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:03 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-155.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:07:14 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-180-83.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:08:49 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 17:09:01 tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.169.114] has joined #lisp 17:09:43 -!- CrazyThinker 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[Remote host closed the connection] 17:19:38 antifuchs: yes! it works perfectly. 17:20:11 praise be to decades-stable software (-: 17:20:29 On Emacs though, I have to use C-h S instead of C-h C-i 17:20:38 otherwise C-i gets interpreted as a tab. 17:21:07 Iffy terminal. 17:21:25 If anyone is interested on getting it running on Windows, I also wrote a small tutorial here: http://neban.github.com/posts/Emacs-AnsiCL-symbol-lookup.html 17:21:42 pkhuong, well, on Emacs running on Windows, maybe on Linux it works better. 17:21:45 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-187-170.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:22:07 doh, SIGILL on git sbcl 17:22:51 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 17:24:30 xjrn [~chatzilla@c-67-174-244-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:29 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-180-220.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:25:32 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:25:57 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.113.242] has joined #lisp 17:26:18 -!- mlkith [~mlkith@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)] 17:26:31 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-171-46.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:27:04 akovalenko [~akovalenk@95.73.123.144] has joined #lisp 17:29:38 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 17:30:04 PECCU [~peccu@ZL198080.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:33:04 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:33:12 o_0 17:33:32 gensym` [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:43 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.113.242] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:33:44 I have structs with complex initialisation. I usually implement that by hiding it all behind a constructor. What do you do when you also want inheritance? So far, I can see two options: add an "auxiliary data" slot (simple and ugly), or pass an allocation function to the constructor. Any other idea? 17:33:59 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:49 (no, standard class and initialize-instance or what not isn't an option; I like my types) 17:35:54 :include not applicable? 17:36:42 bobbysmith007: hey thanks, that's a nice use for progv 17:36:55 bobbysmith007: it's a cool example 17:41:16 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:46:52 oGMo: that doesn't implement the complex initialization. 17:47:14 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:49:17 pkhuong: what about the inheritance are you trying to address? seeing the code would help 17:49:55 oGMo: complex initialisation. 17:49:56 with :include presumably you just call the "parent" constructor in the child 17:50:37 oGMo: defstruct constructor aren't enough; that why it's hidden behind a hand-written constructor. 17:51:44 pkhuong: well sure, you'll want the defstruct constructor to make the struct, an initializer to actually set it up, and your constructor to wrap it all up 17:52:17 oGMo: and how does that work with inheritance? 17:52:56 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:53:28 pkhuong: defstruct A, defstruct B :include A .. if you have %make-A and %make-B as the defstruct constructor, init-A and init-B, and make-A and make-B .. make-A calls %make-A and init-A, make-B calls %make-B, init-A, init-B 17:54:12 you're just doing what a more automatic system would by hand, but structs are static enough it doesn't really matter 17:54:59 I don't see how that's better than passing an allocation function to make-a. 17:55:43 i'm not sure what an allocation function solves. allocation doesn't seem to be the issue, rather initialization 17:56:02 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 17:56:08 and you probably don't want the caller to have to figure out initialization order for a hierarchy 17:56:50 (make-a ... #'allocate-b) 17:57:42 That way make-a returns an instance of B, with A's slot correctly initialised, and most of B's slot as well (via allocate-b). Make-b can cover the rest. 17:58:28 -!- xjrn [~chatzilla@c-67-174-244-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:59:07 sounds dependent on the actual semantics and how much you want to call make-a with a different allocation 17:59:23 One problem with initialisation function is that you lose read-only slots, and that even if the writing is encapsulated, initialisation is still exposed (and performs writes) 17:59:29 snearch [~snearch@e179158063.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:59:38 though, consider if you throw C as a child of B into the mix, and how you call make-B 17:59:41 that makes systems harder to analyse (especially with threads). 17:59:51 oGMo: same thing. (make-b ... #'make-c) 18:00:05 (make-b ... #'allocate-c), rather. 18:03:15 seems like it'd work, though it seems a bit complicated for what it does, but it's hard to tell 18:03:15 compmstr [~compmstr@66.9.127.166] has joined #lisp 18:03:23 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ufidpxvvlpmbvizl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:04:01 mostly in the possiblity for error, as you will always want to call make-X with #'alloc-X or #'alloc-Y for a direct child of X 18:04:23 doesn't have to be a direct child. 18:06:43 well if you have a complex inheritance, that may be your only option anyway 18:07:14 it's a struct. Inheritance can only be very simple. 18:08:00 -!- chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:09:10 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.187.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:09:17 chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:31 Quaydon [~robert@cpe-071-068-114-143.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:14:26 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:15:38 bbommarito [~bbommarit@static-173-73-3-74.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:57 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:16:46 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:18:30 -!- borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:20:06 -!- Quaydon [~robert@cpe-071-068-114-143.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:20:50 ddp [~ddp@93.182.131.6] has joined #lisp 18:21:07 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 18:21:22 newbie question: is there one namespace for all function names? e.g. i'm trying to define a function called room in my own package but i apparently can't/shouldn't because it's already defined in common-lisp 18:21:57 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:22:42 your package is :use'ing the common-lisp package 18:22:50 emit: there are namespaces and packages. 18:23:02 There's a function namespace, another for variables, etc. 18:23:14 meaning when you type the symbol that names the function, you're getting CL:THAT-SYMBOL instead of YOUR-PACKAGE::THAT-SYMBOL 18:23:16 Phoodus: ah... yeah i see :use #:cl... should i take that out 18:23:20 Namespaces work with symbols, though, not strings. Packages guide the mapping of strings to symbols. 18:23:30 emit: if you do that, then you'll have to use things like (cl:+ 1 2) 18:23:32 i mean will i need to prefix cl: for a lot of calls 18:23:35 emit: likely not a good idea. You can shadow cl:room. 18:23:38 yeah that's what i was afraid of 18:23:48 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:24:06 Or you can (defpackage "FOO" (:use) (:export "ROOM" ...)), and (defun foo:room ...) 18:24:21 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-216-21.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:33 I'm a fan of the latter approach. 18:24:49 Less error prone, and I like working with packages that aren't meant to be USEd anyway. 18:24:58 I just come up with alternate names :-P 18:24:59 read up on 'packages' in the hyperspec: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/11_aa.htm 18:25:15 what else would i call a room :P 18:25:34 so :use is like using in c++ or import foo.bar.* in java i guess 18:25:34 "a room" sounds like an object, not a function 18:25:40 HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82a449.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:51 yeah it's actually defclass 18:26:00 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82a449.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:26:05 but similar error, i thought i'd simplify the question :P 18:26:23 HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82a449.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:30 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 18:27:26 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 18:30:12 emit: call it room, just not cl:room. 18:30:47 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-408998.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:31:29 yeah i'm trying to figure out your foo:room suggestion... it sounds like what i want to do 18:32:08 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:32:27 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:32:30 thekilon [~kilon@athedsl-408998.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:33:37 having a hard time deciphering sbcl error messages... i thought g++ w/ stl had crazy error messages, but sbcl comes close 18:34:09 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: rpg] 18:34:30 emit: sbcl's error messages become clearer over time. they actually make a lot of sense :) 18:34:32 emit: lisppaste the message. 18:35:05 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 18:36:16 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 18:37:07 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:44:06 -!- waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has quit [Quit: waltwhite] 18:45:12 waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has joined #lisp 18:46:28 does sbcl have a debugger? 18:46:50 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909]] 18:47:05 chromaticwt: yes. 18:47:11 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.81] has joined #lisp 18:47:11 dagda [~dagda_@np34.co.returnpath.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:12 how do I start it? 18:47:16 (break) 18:47:41 or (error "Some error message.") 18:47:43 prhodes [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:50:22 You don't need to run your program under a debugger the way you do with some other languages; it's always available unless you take steps to make it unavailable. 18:50:45 -!- prhodes is now known as mindCrime 18:52:28 joast [~rick@76.178.187.164] has joined #lisp 18:52:46 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]] 18:58:36 -!- Noctifer [~Noctifer@89.204.153.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:58:58 -!- Neban [~neban@130.Red-83-33-84.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:59:04 osa1 [~sinan@141.196.160.149] has joined #lisp 18:59:26 -!- osa1 [~sinan@141.196.160.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:05 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:02:48 -!- trigen_ [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:08:01 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 19:08:01 having a debugger always available is a very big deal 19:08:09 -!- thekilon is now known as kilon 19:08:16 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:10:57 lisp is a pretty interactive lang 19:15:54 what's the url for lisppaste? the link from http://common-lisp.net/project/lisppaste/ is dead.. 19:16:07 http://paste.lisp.org/ 19:16:08 or did you mean any pastebin that supports lisp 19:16:11 ah ok 19:16:13 thx 19:16:31 Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:45 (it's the first hit on google for lisppaste, here) 19:17:03 i shouldn't paste error messages in it right? it's just for code? 19:17:09 -!- Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:17:23 If you want help reading the error message, the error message would be useful. 19:20:50 -!- silenius [~silenius@i59F73F34.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:55 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 19:23:13 could you please take a look http://paste.lisp.org/display/126513 19:23:43 i mean i get that the :use #:cl is the problem... but i'm doing defclass foo:room, why is it still looking in cl: 19:24:14 emit: don't :use CL. 19:24:34 emit: don't listen to that 19:24:35 but didn't you say i will have to prefix cl: for almost everything like cl:+ 19:24:48 emit: you should choose a name other than room for your rooms. 19:25:51 if you :use CL, then that automatically shoves cl:room into your package 19:25:59 unless you explicitly shadow it 19:26:06 See . 19:26:09 so foo:room doesn't mean room in a foo namespace? 19:26:19 it's all shared in one namespace of functions..? 19:26:32 it's not namespaces of functions, it's packages of symbols 19:26:38 emit: you imported all of CL into FOO. FOO:ROOM *is* CL:ROOM. 19:26:40 emit: no. it is in one package. and if you import :cl, you'll import cl:room 19:27:08 and the error message tells you that you tried to defined a class named CL:ROOM.. 19:27:32 you can throw in (:shadow #:room) into defpackage if you want 19:28:14 Phoodus: ... and in other packages that USE foo. 19:28:32 right, name collisions between packages will always suck 19:28:59 ... and are best avoided by not reusing names, at least not names from :cl or other commonly used packages. 19:29:01 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.81] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7-dev] 19:29:28 yep 19:29:38 H4ns: or by using packages instead of prefixing symbol names with package names. 19:30:39 pkhuong: that i don't understand? 19:30:53 -!- chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:31:10 when it comes to libraries, I almost never :use packages. I always tend to go for (bt:all-threads) etc 19:31:12 foo:room doesn't have to be cl:room, and it often makes more sense to me than foo:foo-room. 19:31:33 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 19:31:36 -!- zmyrgel [~user@hoasb-ff0cdd00-22.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:31:38 using as in exploiting, not USEing. 19:31:49 yeah 19:32:06 pkhuong: agreed. he'll have to shadow cl:room in :foo and tell people not to :use :foo, which is proper. 19:32:18 chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:31 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:32:39 H4ns: or just not :USE CL in FOO. 19:33:01 pkhuong: are you really recommending that? 19:33:07 It's not exactly uncommon to have a SYSTEM and a SYSTEM-IMPL packge. 19:33:20 pkhuong: ah, ok. 19:33:28 That's what my annotation does. 19:33:43 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.81] has joined #lisp 19:34:09 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.190.39.231] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 19:34:15 emit: ok, here is the deal: there are ways how you can really use room as your exported symbol name, but for the sake of simplicity, it is best to not reuse names from :cl until you feel confident that you understand packages and want to do it really right and proper :) 19:34:27 yeah looks kludgy 19:34:34 pkhuong: can you agree? it'd mean something to me. :) 19:35:34 It's a bit of slightly voodoo scaffolding, but it's not exactly kludgy. Separating interface and implementation packages is a good thing to avoid unintentional leakage (e.g. I want to export the class name, but not the function). 19:35:59 i'd say it's klunky 19:36:05 or is it clunky? 19:36:16 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:36:28 Still, if you're having trouble implementing it, you should probably just use a different name for now. 19:36:39 H4ns: apropos the current discussion. I've forked some bknr- projects and have been been slowly prefixing some symbols with their package. One question I have i w/r/t for example bknr-datastore/src/indices/indices.lisp 19:36:44 H4ns: depends on how germanic you feel, I suppose ;) 19:37:11 pkhuong: pretty much, i fear, as i am currently dislocated in florida for the week 19:37:16 mon_key: fire ahead 19:37:16 i've been tempted to prefix my package name to all the symbles myself 19:37:26 like in C where i don't have namespaces 19:37:35 symbols* 19:37:36 H4ns: clunky. 19:37:44 H4ns: where here are methods specialized on skip-list-index that invoke for example SKIP-LIST-GET 19:37:47 emit: i prefix everything but symbols from cl and the current package. 19:38:06 H4ns: I think he means prefix as in naming things foo-room. 19:38:16 yeah i mean pkhuong's interp 19:38:18 pkhuong: ieh 19:38:22 emit: ieh 19:38:23 emit: yeah, don't do that. 19:38:31 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-46-199.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 19:38:45 H4ns: the package bknr.indices :USEs bknr.skip-list 19:39:03 At that point you might as well just tell people not to :use your package and then they can use the package name as the prefix. 19:39:10 foo:room rather than foo-room 19:39:16 emit: that's a silly way to fake packages by pretending they don't already exist. But for now, it's probably good enough. 19:39:33 yeah i know what he meant... just a lot of typing 19:39:33 H4ns: so the fully qualified symbol SKIP-LIST-GET would be BKNR.SKIP-LIST:SKIP-LIST-GET 19:39:34 And people who know what they're doing can selectively import names from your package if they want. 19:39:53 like i'm using postmodern... it's so long 19:40:02 mon_key: boy, that's ugly. did i write that? 19:40:04 to put postmodern: everywhere the code starts looking messay 19:40:13 emit: M-/ is your best friend, everywhere 19:40:28 emit: also, you could use its nickname pomo: 19:40:31 H4ns: Now, I'm more than happy to do the work prefixing thos skip-list symbols but I'm curious if maybe you have an opinion about nicknaming some of those packages. 19:40:32 emit: depends on the library. Some are meant to be USEd, other not. 19:40:37 interesting... didn't know about pomo 19:40:58 However, H4ns's is right that all things being equal, it'd be better not to export symbols from a package that clash with other packages people might want to use. 19:41:21 mon_key: you can nickname the package to #:skip-list and lose the skip-list- prefix in the exported symbols in the package, if you feel so inclined. 19:41:28 H4ns: e.g. "BKNR-SL" for "BKNR.SKIP-LIST" 19:41:28 mon_key: i'd appreciate it very much :) 19:41:31 And since almost every package :use's CL, export symbols that clash with names in CL is likely to cause pain. 19:41:51 gigamonkey: unless the package isn't meant to be USEd. 19:41:55 pkhuong: yes. 19:42:15 Then you just have to worry about clashes in the namespace of good, short package names. ;-) 19:42:21 not making it easy to :use a package is a good way for people to not :?use it. 19:42:27 gigamonkey: ah yes... Package-local nicknames. 19:42:33 i mean like in c++ or java i can have the same name, import or use the namespace and i can always disambiguate by prefixing the package/namespace 19:42:48 H4ns: is work-queue:make really worse than make-work-queue? 19:42:50 emit: you can do that in Lisp to. 19:42:53 mon_key: i'm good with nicknaming. i'd prefer "SKIP-LIST" to "BKNR-SL" 19:42:53 it will take the "closest" match wrt to the current scope 19:42:58 hakzsam_ [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:01 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:43:09 pkhuong: not at all, no 19:43:14 pkhuong: i'm all with you. 19:43:24 emit: the difference in Lisp is you actually have more control if you want it. 19:43:35 but yeah... i will name room something else and just consider everythign in cl to be "built-in" keywords 19:43:53 For instance you can :use both CL and some other package that exports clashing symbols but then you need to specify in your DEFPACKAGE which symbol you want in your package. 19:44:03 And you can always use the package-prefixed name for the other. 19:44:11 like i wouldn't complain that i can't name something if, then, else 19:44:29 H4ns: "not making it easy to :use a package is a good way for people to not :?use it" If it's meant to be :USEd, I suppose? 19:44:44 pkhuong: it was just a joke, man. 19:44:45 the ROOM one is kind of annoying since it's not like it's something that's probably used in anyone's code. 19:44:50 H4ns: ah, sorry (: 19:44:52 pkhuong: glad you got it. 19:44:58 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:08 -!- benny [~benny@i577A13A2.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:45:18 -!- hakzsam_ [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:45:24 gigamonkey: EXACTLY what i was thinking 19:45:37 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:45:38 just a coincidence i guess 19:45:47 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:02 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.147.52] has left #lisp 19:46:05 unfortunate i would hit such a roadblock in my first lisp project 19:46:50 fwiw, I actually often do care about using names like IF, LAMBDA, FUNCTION, etc., but that's what packages are for. 19:49:45 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 19:49:45 gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has joined #lisp 19:50:00 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:15 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:50:44 lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has joined #lisp 19:52:13 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:53:35 -!- lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:53:54 lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has joined #lisp 19:58:47 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-168.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:01:41 ThomasH [46822ea0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.130.46.160] has joined #lisp 20:01:47 -!- snearch [~snearch@e179158063.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:01:48 -!- ThomasH [46822ea0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.130.46.160] has quit [Changing host] 20:01:48 ThomasH [46822ea0@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 20:02:36 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@66.9.127.166] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:06:00 -!- ThomasH [46822ea0@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:07:10 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA084D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:07:25 H4ns: i guess "BKNR-SL" is better as a) its two chars shorter and b) maybe someone else wants to use "SKIP-LIST" 20:09:45 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-229-85.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:52 H4ns: also do you want me to provide both "BKNR-SL" and "bknr-sl" for things like Allegro's modern-mode? 20:11:37 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-225-238.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:11:55 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:13:47 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:09 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:14:39 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 20:16:18 Cosman246 [~cosman246@D-173-250-159-213.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 20:18:59 benny [~benny@i577A3668.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:21:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:21:45 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA01D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:25:56 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:30:48 hehe always tempted to quit lisp and then something draws me back, now i am seriously hooked into slime, very powerful stuff, i can see why you guys love it 20:32:23 rpg_ [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 20:33:54 pnq [~nick@AC82DCC4.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:34:26 I'm not an emacs fan, but I'm in it purely because of SLIME 20:35:13 you prefer vim ? or something else ? 20:35:26 actually i did not like vim, but i really like emacs 20:35:58 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:36:37 quicklisp is what drew me back into dabbling with lisp... before that it was too annoying to deal with packages and dependencies for me to work on a serious project 20:37:10 I'm not a fan of vi or emacs :) 20:37:11 it was fine for toy projects with everything in one file, but beyond that it didn't seem practical. 20:38:08 bitrot on anything not "web-oriented" for every other language is also motivational 20:38:43 what do you mean? 20:38:47 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.113.9] has joined #lisp 20:38:51 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 20:39:15 hmm did not have the chance to mess with quicklisp yet, but I will when i start testing lisp and open gl 20:39:22 at first glance i feel most lisp libs suffer from bitrot and lack of docs.. 20:40:55 emit: i was trying to build some gui tools .. guis haven't progressed a lot in the last decade or so (gtk/qt) and all the bindings were rotting .. and no other real work was being done on native app building that i could tell 20:41:24 but that's the case with lisp as well isn't it? 20:41:45 emit: really? i've been using a number of libraries that may not have been updated in a few years, but due to the stability of lisp as a language, they still work perfectly well 20:41:54 which gui lib are you using? 20:42:01 well, lisp has crap for guis, but if i'm going to build one, it has all the _other_ stuff 20:42:42 emit: building one on top of cairo/gtk and a number of other things 20:42:55 cool 20:43:13 how come lisp is crappy in guis, it has gtk, there objc bridge so that means native gui on macos, tk gui and many more 20:43:46 the point was that the bindings were bitrotted 20:43:48 lots of people seem to be doing nicely with commonqt. 20:43:50 ugh tk... :P 20:43:58 with the possible exception of cocoa, which i'm not familiar with anyway, i don't consider those acceptable solutions 20:44:03 still feel like a gui from 1980s 20:44:04 which version of gtk oes lisp bind with? 20:44:15 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h178n4c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:44:36 add^_ [~add^_^@h178n4c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:44:38 emit: so does everything else nowadays, but i'm spoiled by jazzmutant's lemur stuff 20:44:47 is there any that use gtk 3? 20:44:49 tensorpudding: 2.x 20:44:50 well latest tk is native in macos , and i think windows too 20:45:01 any that are still being updated? 20:45:07 gtk3 is not significantly different afaict 20:45:36 gtk3 is native in macos too, gtk2 sucked majorly with x11 20:45:48 cliki suggests there are no fewer than 8 gtk bindings 20:45:52 *kilon* looks at Gimp 20:45:55 that's pretty danged ridiculous 20:46:18 tensorpudding: the only live, generalized one is cl-gtk2, to my knowledge 20:46:30 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:46:44 tensorpudding: maybe that just means that CFFI is really easy to use 20:47:14 -!- dagda [~dagda_@np34.co.returnpath.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:47:16 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:21 usually FFIs are not that hard to use 20:47:22 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:47:22 last updated in september of last year 20:47:32 gtk has had quite a few updates since then 20:47:39 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@D-173-250-159-213.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:48:43 well, i'm not using most of gtk, just enough to make windows and render to cairo surfaces 20:49:06 it probably means that people don't care enough about getting an 80% solution to the binding problem and actually supporting it, rather than making a ton of 20% solutions that get abandoned after two years 20:49:16 ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 20:49:41 cl-gtk2 is definitely 80%+ 20:50:21 and it's pretty easy to extend, i have a dnd branch that took little effort 20:50:36 the best lisp gui is a web browser :-P 20:50:47 you extended it, but did you send the changes upstream? 20:50:58 or native client 20:51:00 that's my problem. everyone thinks the web is a viable gui 20:51:11 tensorpudding: i posted a patch 20:51:31 i don't know if it got integrated, but at some point if maintenance drops, i'll just fork it 20:51:32 if you look at the mailing list archives, essentially nothing happened to this library in 2011 20:51:45 the dev blog has two posts since january 2010 20:52:35 it seems like enough people use it that it'd be worth pooling effort to keep it updated 20:52:40 oGMo: well, the web will be a viable gui eventually, it'll just take some time and lots of redundant effort 20:52:41 well if you make a lib that works for you why bother making a full implementation ? 20:53:30 making a complete, robust library that everyone can use is always better, especially when you can court a community of volunteers to keep it that way 20:53:51 tensorpudding: go on then 20:54:09 df_: as long as it involves large clunky browsers rendering text-based markup, i can't qualify it as viable 20:54:42 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-6.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:43 well it doesn't, it mostly involves javascript VMs these days 20:54:47 yes go on :D 20:55:08 i dunno, i started looking at lisp just recently 20:55:09 df_, manipulating trees of markup, poorly 20:55:16 still learning 20:55:32 how recently ? 20:55:51 i write some gtk for fun, using python, which is rather well-supported 20:55:57 like a couple weeks ago 20:56:28 oGMo: the same could be said for gtk 20:56:56 oh you are a fresh fish like me 20:57:24 df_: except you don't manipulate trees of markup, though i don't consider it particularly nice in any way 20:57:30 tensorpudding: what brings you to lisp ? 20:57:37 you manipulate trees of widgets 20:57:46 Neban [~neban@130.Red-83-33-84.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:59 well 20:58:00 the DOM isn't tied to the markup language (not saying it's not horrible, mind you) 20:58:03 vrook [~girondist@c-24-91-141-42.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:22 i wanted to compare it to clojure 20:58:31 which has been a fascination of mine recently 20:58:43 meow 20:59:13 df_: there _are_ trees, but even if you're doing plain gtk, you rarely deal with them manually .. however there are far nicer approaches to guis 21:00:05 I don't doubt, but they can probably be built on top of these trees 21:00:54 Cosman246 [~cosman246@D-173-250-159-213.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 21:00:55 tensorpudding: interesting have not tried clojure yet as I am not a big java fan , especially of the libraries 21:01:08 -!- hypnocat [~hypnocat@unaffiliated/hypnocat] has left #lisp 21:01:15 i wasn't a java fan too, but clojure had some very compelling points 21:01:31 java has great libraries... 21:01:38 how it compares in terms of speed ? 21:01:48 i mean with java 21:01:48 well, startup is slow 21:02:00 but once you have it running, the speed is good 21:02:15 jython has been very slow 21:02:27 Java is usually quite faster, but you can add type hints to Clojure IIRC. 21:02:40 the convenience of its distribution and project handling are pretty good 21:03:00 i still don't understand cl's project handling 21:03:14 one word... quicklisp 21:03:14 yes distribution is where python sucks and java clearly wins 21:03:33 i get quicklisp can easily grab your libraries 21:03:52 is quicklisp for distribution too, i thought it was only as quick way to load libraries 21:03:55 in that respect it's a lot like lein, cabal, pip, etc. 21:04:09 but i don't see how you distribute using quicklisp 21:04:18 this blog entry is great: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html?thread=674335 21:05:11 clojure's is convenient because everything is a jar, even clojure 21:05:57 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@D-173-250-159-213.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:06:01 well even jar is not ideal since you still need java installed 21:06:09 not really 21:06:20 it's ideal because you get cross-platform for free 21:06:24 you can package jre into a jar ? 21:06:34 no... 21:06:51 if it were binary, you'd have to build once for every platform you wanted to distribute for 21:07:22 you have to install java separately, of course 21:07:23 but there are multiple free projects that make installers from java apps. checks to see if jre is present and if not installs 21:07:24 yes thats how smalltalk works, it puts everything into one folder, with one subfolder for each os 21:07:29 but anyway this is really offtopic :P 21:07:37 you wouldn't want to encumber your code with distributing the whole jre 21:07:38 mon_key: use #:bknr-sl 21:07:43 smalltalk so far has the best distribution systems i have seen 21:08:00 emit: thanks for the link 21:08:05 mon_key: that will always work right. also use uninterned symbols in package export lists 21:08:24 but anyway, i can use quicklisp to load libraries easily, but i have to do it every time i start sbcl 21:09:19 i have my project (created with quickproject) declare the dependencies in the asd file... so when i load my project it also loads all the dependencies 21:09:19 then there's this asdf thing, and i don't know how it works 21:09:34 H4ns: ok 21:09:34 i guess this blog post will help somewhat 21:09:41 yah asdf really turned me off from lisp years ago 21:10:04 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:10:17 asdf looks kinda like ant 21:10:41 except i guess it can't be as bad as ant 21:10:45 yah quicklisp is like maven 21:10:58 actually i'd say it's basically the same thing for lisp 21:11:04 what an insult to quicklisp 21:11:05 although clearly not as mature and complex 21:11:06 if it involves s-expressions it has to be better than xml 21:11:07 Cosman246 [~cosman246@D-173-250-159-213.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 21:11:21 emit: its not at all 21:11:27 ok which part... 21:11:36 the part that relies on ASDF 21:11:37 i haven't used maven directly 21:11:42 for my usage cases it behaves exactly like maven 21:11:48 or rather a subset of maven 21:11:49 clojure has its own tools which interface with maven 21:11:52 emit: which maybe is like maven :) 21:12:01 lein being the one i use 21:12:02 Neban: type hints in clojure are for avoiding reflection, not for optimization 21:12:07 is asdf the one downloaading the dependencies as necessary? 21:12:14 i'm not sure what's going on behiind quicklisp 21:12:23 not good enough with lisp to delve into src 21:12:48 also initializing a project... same as maven 21:12:55 churib: wasn't that what *warn-on-reflection* is for? 21:12:57 i'm almost positive that's not part of asdf 21:13:08 emit: some of your assumptions are not well founded 21:13:12 probably 21:13:17 i've only been using it a week or so :p 21:13:24 how do i get libraries available on sbcl without having to quickload them every time i start it up 21:13:34 do i have to add the code to my config file or something 21:13:35 Although... well, avoiding reflection helps performance. 21:13:39 tensorpudding: quickload only downloads when needed. 21:13:52 it's not about downloading 21:13:55 tensorpudding: save-lisp-and-die 21:13:59 it's about making the packages available 21:14:00 Neban: yes 21:14:23 tensorpudding: or ranter sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die 21:14:32 what does that actually do 21:14:33 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl22-79-6.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 21:14:37 tensorpudding: quicklisp depends on ASDF for that part. The usual way is to define an asdf system with the right dependencies and load (via asdf or quicklisp) that system. 21:15:26 pkhuong: I think he's wanting the systems to be available when his image comes up 21:15:44 i just want packages loaded automatically, i don't want to, say, save any functions i defuned from the repl 21:16:12 tensorpudding: you can load them in the user init file (e.g. .sbclrc) 21:16:23 can't you just load them in .sbclrc 21:16:29 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:16:37 Anyone here ever use the commercial lisps (IE lispworks/Allegro)? 21:16:45 FWIW, I restart my image rarely enough that it's not an issue. 21:16:48 bbommarito: while we speak 21:16:58 H4ns: Which one do you use? 21:16:59 i dunno i prefer a clean slate "vm" everytime i start up and then load my project, which pulls all the libs it needs 21:17:06 bbommarito: allegro 21:17:33 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 21:17:37 H4ns: That is the one I have been playing with, because of AllegroCache 21:17:50 bbommarito: "ugh" 21:17:51 maven has version # dependencies, i don't think quicklisp does. that might be way too much for one person to manage i think 21:18:05 H4ns: Not a fan of Allegro 21:18:24 emit: the idea of quicklisp releases is to ensure that all the system versions work together. 21:18:28 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@D-173-250-159-213.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:18:29 H4ns: AllegroCache I mean. 21:18:37 right 21:18:45 bbommarito: no. tried to use it, found it to be ugly and lacking. 21:19:25 sometimes you want to settle on a stable api though... not follow a moving target 21:19:29 spike2251 [~user@c-76-24-24-228.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:41 bbommarito: it went like i said "hey, we have allegro, why not use acache", coworker said "it's way too ugly", i thought "hypocrit" and looked myself. yeah. he was right. 21:19:56 emit: that's asdf's job. 21:19:58 emit: but if you're so incline ASDF is version aware and methods can hook into that. 21:20:11 H4ns: Ugly how? I mean, from the webinar I watched, it looks dirt simple to work with. 21:20:30 yeah... i don't want to mess around with asdf myself yet... i know it's powerful but that also means a lot of settings and headaches for a beginner 21:20:32 bbommarito: the franz stuff usually works to the extend that is documented, so look at the docs and when you like that, use it. 21:20:37 what's the command to look at the assembly version of a function? 21:20:38 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 21:20:51 spike2251: diassemble. 21:20:54 *disassemble even 21:21:03 pkhuong: thanks! 21:21:25 emit: bottom line is CL is not Clojure and many here on #lisp will gladly inform you that comparing CL to other languages is not a productive thing to do... better is to accept CL on its terms. 21:21:45 oh yeah definitely 21:22:44 i want to understand the differences and similarities to learn it... not to start flamewars 21:23:32 so many concepts and patterns ingrained after using c style languages for 2 decades. i need to know what works and what doesnt 21:23:33 -!- waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has quit [Quit: waltwhite] 21:23:34 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:24:04 emit: one thing that amazes me everytime i use it is when ASDF/CFFI are able to hook into the system libraries 21:24:15 francogrex [~user@109.130.142.48] has joined #lisp 21:24:51 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.142.48] has left #lisp 21:25:28 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82a449.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:26:39 beslyrus [~Brucio-12@adsl-99-49-14-228.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:06 yeah each time i'm stuck i'm tempted to just write a module in c and call it from lisp but then i realize i'm doing this to learn lisp :D 21:27:52 took me ALL DAY to write a multithreaded tcp/ip server with usocket which i could've done in c in half hour 21:30:12 emit: It would likely take me far longer to do that in CL and much much much longer in C! (-: 21:30:54 postmodern is amazing though... really showed me what lisp is about 21:32:00 like having all those sql statements in s-expressions instead of an unmanageablely long string... that was cool. docs suck though... took me another whole day to figure it out 21:32:28 it's like two pages of text... one for tutorial and one for reference :-X 21:35:00 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:35:38 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 21:38:06 -!- christoph_debian [~user@oteiza.siccegge.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:38:37 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:40 yeah for me at least seems elisp intro if the only noob friendly tutorial 21:38:53 *intro is the only 21:38:57 -!- dsp_ [~tt@lebesgue.cowpig.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:39:18 but its ok, with some help from people here 21:39:32 dsp_ [~tt@lebesgue.cowpig.ca] has joined #lisp 21:39:51 -!- leino [~leino@d85-194-250-179.cust.wlannet.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:41:01 -!- bbommarito [~bbommarit@static-173-73-3-74.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:43:05 mon_key: did you ever get that quicklisp page in manifest working? 21:43:23 It should work, as far as I know, in every version I pushed to github. 21:44:12 christoph_debian [~user@DSL01.212.114.250.148.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:36 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-031.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:50:51 -!- spike2251 [~user@c-76-24-24-228.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:53 -!- johnstorey [~johnstore@12.208.167.194] has quit [Quit: Nodding off now.] 21:51:05 spike2251 [~user@c-76-24-24-228.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:40 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@cpe-74-64-122-182.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:52:10 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:52:38 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:48 blah, getting a "Memory fault at 810" when a particular C function tries to free a particular object sometimes .. works other times, same allocation, etc 21:53:07 (the 810 changes of course) 21:55:33 ThomasH [46822ea0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.130.46.160] has joined #lisp 21:55:33 -!- pnq [~nick@AC82DCC4.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:55:55 Load in a heap debugger; might be a heap debugger, or passing a pointer to lisp data. 21:55:59 -!- ThomasH is now known as Guest28443 21:56:04 qwebirc doesn't provide any indication that you've timeout. 21:57:13 i've actually got a modified version of the library with printf's .. i can verify exactly where it happens and that the pointer looks "about right" .. pointer was also C-allocated 21:57:16 -!- Guest28443 is now known as ThomasH_ 21:58:38 * might be a double free or something that would be detected by a heap debugger. 21:59:07 -!- ThomasH_ is now known as thomash_ 21:59:28 -!- thomash_ [46822ea0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.130.46.160] has left #lisp 21:59:47 what will find that sort of thing? ldb, gdb..? running this on amd64 linux 22:01:20 valgrind 22:01:48 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:01:49 I'd try to build a minimal C testcase, though, as lisp impls tend to not play nice with debuggers without some effort 22:02:30 yeah not a bad idea, probably should have gone there an hour ago 22:03:09 oGMo: debugging malloc implementations can help. google's tcmalloc can be LD_PRELOADed in and switched to debugging mode. 22:03:32 Cosman246 [~cosman246@D-69-91-156-203.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 22:03:35 pkhuong: hrm i think i can even make glibc's malloc detect double-frees 22:03:53 right, you can. 22:04:03 but valgrind will detect just about everything, and is handy besides 22:04:40 Ralith: it also doesn't play well with CL. 22:04:50 yes, oGMo implied he could build a C test harness. 22:05:21 i can; i'm not entirely convinced it will help, because the code is pretty clear .. but i might as well try 22:05:52 Ralith: it helps to identify the cause of the problem as much as possible before trying to reduce the test case. 22:06:08 *Ralith* shrug 22:06:16 if the debugging mallocs work, great 22:06:34 Ralith: exactly. It's nearly zero-cost. 22:07:44 bbommarito [~bbommarit@c-76-100-61-229.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:06 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 22:09:58 even with MALLOC_CHECK_=3 it still dumps back to sbcl .. hrm 22:11:06 oGMo: any debugging output though? 22:11:22 pkhuong: not from glibc sadly 22:11:36 I'm in a repl, trying to follow this tutorial: http://www.adampetersen.se/articles/lispweb.htm and I am getting stuck at (start-server :port 8080) to launch hunchentoot. What am I doing wrong? 22:12:13 oGMo: if you're in SLIME, you'll want to look in *inferior-lisp* 22:12:27 pkhuong: right, that's where all the library output is going 22:12:37 stderr isn't redirected (i found it too slow) 22:15:04 -!- lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:24 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-158-174.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:27 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.113.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:17:42 -!- vrook [~girondist@c-24-91-141-42.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:56 excellent, segfaults in C 22:20:10 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.130] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:24:34 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:40 ericparent [~ericparen@out-pq-203.wireless.telus.com] has joined #lisp 22:26:09 yay for reproduction 22:26:35 TMI Ralith 22:29:30 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 22:30:55 -!- gensym` [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:30:59 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:32:06 Whitesquall [~notwhites@94.242.178.145] has joined #lisp 22:34:40 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:34:40 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 22:37:45 actually not, boggling lack of gcc error caused a similar bug, but impossible with cffi 22:38:27 spike2251: stuck as in what? 22:38:32 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128144108.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:38:36 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@cpe-74-64-122-182.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: RomyEatsDrupal] 22:38:51 johnstorey [~johnstore@12.208.167.194] has joined #lisp 22:41:15 -!- ericparent [~ericparen@out-pq-203.wireless.telus.com] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 22:41:53 ericparent [~ericparen@out-pq-203.wireless.telus.com] has joined #lisp 22:43:15 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@D-69-91-156-203.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:43:17 -!- steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: quit?] 22:46:25 *pinterface* tries to decide between (and (not condition-1) condition-2), (unless condition-1 condition-2) where condition-1 is of the form (null-pointer-p x). 22:48:38 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-46-199.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:48:45 -!- rpg_ [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:50:06 Cosman246 [~cosman246@D-69-91-156-203.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 22:50:24 -!- ericparent [~ericparen@out-pq-203.wireless.telus.com] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 22:52:12 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-92-50-99-8.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:53 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:53:08 pinterface: I'd go with "and" 22:53:29 depending on the return value of "unless" always feels a bit odd. 22:56:47 -!- Whitesquall [~notwhites@94.242.178.145] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:48 pinterface: (defun non-null-pointer-p (x) ...) (: 22:56:58 Whitesqu_ [~notwhites@94.242.178.145] has joined #lisp 22:58:03 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:59:32 Ralith: I agree. But (and (not (null-thingy ...))) is such an awkward construction, though. 22:59:36 pkhuong: :P 22:59:51 -!- X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 23:00:56 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:01:30 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:01 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:47 -!- rmarianski is now known as rmar|away 23:07:33 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:09:17 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h178n4c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: add^_] 23:10:58 -!- spike2251 [~user@c-76-24-24-228.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:13:23 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:13:40 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 23:14:56 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-031.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:15:21 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@D-69-91-156-203.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:18:29 spike2251 [~user@c-76-24-24-228.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:51 -!- spike2251 [~user@c-76-24-24-228.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:25:04 -!- chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:25:56 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:31:18 chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:47 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:33:56 oGMo: I sketched my struct initialisation problem and current solution here: . 23:34:12 ASau` [~user@95-26-61-75.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 23:35:31 eat-a-kibble [~kristerfl@c71695AC1.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #lisp 23:37:00 pkhuong: nice. 23:37:47 -!- ASau [~user@95-27-186-234.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:37:58 Xach: something between lisptip's rss feed and planet lisp eats up "#". 23:38:21 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:42:05 pkhuong: unfortunately it's on the unfixable-by-me tumblr end :( 23:42:18 it's wholly gone from the xml file 23:42:39 why are websites so bad at encodings 23:44:01 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl22-79-6.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:44:15 Ralith: because we use strings everywhere instead of typed structured data. 23:44:48 pkhuong: but these strings can be interpreted unambiguously! 23:45:08 DaRabman [~darabman@46.208.2.56] has joined #lisp 23:45:36 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 23:46:29 marsell [~marsell@120.18.228.95] has joined #lisp 23:47:01 Thanks in advance for your patience, but how do I display the implementation detail of a function using the REPL? 23:47:28 DaRabman: what do you mean by "implementation detail"? 23:47:42 the code, perhaps? 23:47:48 pkhuong: I used to add a -plist slots sometimes, but only for occasional small metadata 23:48:32 DaRabman: M-. will take you to the function definition, with SLIME 23:49:01 tcr: right. It's fine for occasional stuff, and when distinct types wouldn't help. 23:49:11 I also did a make-instance alike that takes a symbol and generates the actual constructor function's name (can be put into a compiler macro) 23:49:59 otherwise passing a constructor function is good. I'd probably call the generic constructor make-foo-using ..args.. 23:50:07 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-408998.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:32 Gurther: SLIME claims it doesn't know the defintion. Am I correct in guessing that as I typed the function directly into the repl, it's been interpreted and the original code discard? 23:50:36 *discarded 23:50:52 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.161.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:51:19 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:51:31 Guthur: ^ 23:52:12 well quite probably, if never used it on a func i def'd in the REPL 23:52:19 if/I've 23:52:22 DaRabman: yes. that is correct. 23:52:39 Okay 23:52:52 Well, function-lambda-expression is encouraged to return it 23:52:54 DaRabman: most people type their definitions into files and use C-M-x or C-c C-c 23:54:04 H4ns: Okay then, ty 23:54:28 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.81] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55:08 (make-foo-using-class ) might work, too, with some clever bits to find the constructor function from that 23:56:29 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA01D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:56:53 tcr: I'm not sure it's much more useful given that I'm working with structures. 23:57:20 useful? 23:57:49 It's just sugar on the constructor approach following existing CL style 23:59:41 I don't think there's a standard way to map structure-class names to constructors.