00:00:08 Yeah, I suppose so 00:00:47 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:00:50 certainly a lower frustration factor compared to trying to get things set up on Windows 00:01:22 housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 00:01:38 That's true, but if Lisp Cabinet becomes big enough, some potential people would overlook that factor and complain "why can't we have that IDE", or something like that 00:01:57 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-079.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 00:02:07 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-74-224.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:03:05 oh is Lisp Cabinet an IDE, sorry I didn't actually check 00:03:38 for me Emacs is great for CL, and tons of other stuff besides 00:03:39 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.26.192] has joined #lisp 00:04:48 indeed, I'm typing these messages in emacs, have a shell open, a REPL, and org-mode file 00:05:46 Lisp Cabinet is a bunch of Emacs extensions 00:05:51 packaged with Emacs 00:05:56 and several lisps 00:05:59 ah, ok 00:06:48 H4ns: bknr-web will not load with Hunchentoot 1.1.1 per acceptor-dispatch-request -- I opened an issue on the github repo. 00:08:06 mon_key: I don't think it's meant to work with the old Hunchentoot API. 00:08:08 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 00:09:58 blackmirroxx [~Adium@c-4f66a066-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 00:10:03 -!- SegFault1X|work is now known as SegFaultAX|work 00:11:33 -!- epsil [~vegard@ti0145a380-0200.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:12:30 Xach: bknr-web? At some point it prob. did b/c git log shows references to Hunchentoot 1.0 circa July 2009. I'm just pointing out that semi-recent changes do not appear to be backwards compatible. 00:12:45 pnq [~nick@AC81E3BC.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:18 mon_key: and Xach thinks that's intentional. 00:13:29 mon_key: I don't think they were semi_recent. Someone asked for bknr-web in Quicklisp many months ago and the response was that it wasn't going to work due to the dependency on unreleased (at the time) Hunchentoot changes. 00:13:39 Maybe recent in the Lisp timescale 00:13:51 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-079.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:14:29 looks like the breaking change was around Feb 23 2011 00:15:25 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-079.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 00:15:28 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177890443.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:17:08 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:22:02 Xach: FWIW i have two machines here one running the most recent QL dist with hunchentoot-1.2.2 the other with a less recent dist from 2011-06-19 and hunchentoot-1.1.1 and unfortunately the one with the older dist doesn't have a network connection :( 00:23:07 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:23:09 thumb drive time! 00:23:20 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23:23 Indeed :) 00:23:38 So yeah, I just need to glue together some of the libraries to Lispbox, and voila! A new IDE! 00:23:47 for the converted 00:23:56 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.50] has joined #lisp 00:24:18 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Quit: no thumbdrive swapping network cables] 00:25:35 drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:55 mensch [~mensch@c-67-189-241-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:00 carlo_au [~carlo@ppp59-167-14-167.lns1.syd6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:04 -!- mlkith [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Quit: bye] 00:33:19 -!- peaces [~peaces@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:34:17 I'm glad there's a function named LOGICAL-CHUNKIFY in SBCL. 00:34:40 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:34:44 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:34:49 pferor` [~user@122.Red-2-137-179.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:55 I do hope there's a physical-chunkify 00:35:16 or perhaps irrational-chunkify 00:36:05 -!- kennyd 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madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:17:33 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-193-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:55 centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-182-204.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:32 /msg akovalenko I am using Debian linux .chenbing@hp540:~$ ssh -D 7070 chenbing:ooquez4L@95.72.96.181 -p2220 03:20:32 ssh: connect to host 95.72.96.181 port 2220: Connection refused 03:20:32 03:21:51 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA09B2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:22:30 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA09B2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:22:44 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:25:31 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #lisp 03:25:42 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ldlruacppimrwfax] has joined #lisp 03:26:08 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:11 -!- bwright 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[~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:55 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:38:59 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.75] has joined #lisp 04:38:59 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.75] has quit [Changing host] 04:38:59 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:39:36 -!- sysop_fb [~bleh@108-66-160-34.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:42:18 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 04:42:47 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:43:07 johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-99-56-62-46.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:50 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:46:58 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:48:01 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-182-204.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:54:14 i want to read content of a file, sort them and write them back to file. so i am opening the file with these options ':output :io aand :if-exists :overwrite' however, sbcl (1.0.54) is appending the written content. i am doing something wrong? 04:56:53 what precisely does ':output :io imply? specifically :io? that almost sounds like two streams, and input and an output, which might lead me to believe that since it is opening the file for both reading and writing, it won't truncate it. granted, I am just posing a guess and am likely wrong. 04:57:58 and the semantics of my rationale are probably a bit C-like, not that I've ever read and written a file at the same time in that lang 04:59:11 (with-open-file (stream filename :output :io :if-exists :overwrite)...) the spec says that the file will be descructively overwritten on writing. but it's not what sbcl is doing 04:59:25 BrianRice` [~water@174-21-113-150.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:11 -!- katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:00:12 :io option creates a bidirectional stream 05:00:38 -!- BrianRice [~water@174-31-130-171.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:00:38 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 05:00:55 frankly, that sounds like part of the problem to me, regardless of what the spec says 05:01:01 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 05:01:06 seems like it would entail a producer/consumer conflict 05:01:31 DaDaDosPrompt: clhs says "one of :input, :output, :io, or :probe". So presumably specifying more than one is undefined. 05:01:58 well, I'd say just specify input to read the thing in, close that down once you have the data, then specify output to truncate 05:02:18 sorry, my mistake there s/:output :io/:direction :io/ 05:02:19 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:02:54 If you read ten bytes from a file, then write one byte, where in the file do you expect the byte written to appear? 05:03:55 katesmith__ [~katesmith@75-138-199-162.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:05:12 pinterface: per spec, if i understand it correctly, it should be one byte from the begining of the stream and not the current position of the stream due to the read. plus i am finishing the read before starting the write... 05:06:38 DaDaDosPrompt: did you mean :direction :io? 05:06:59 vrook: that's what i meant 05:07:00 does it actually work that way? 05:07:01 -!- katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:07:27 I'm just not sure how that which I described could be done in a single file opening invocation 05:08:18 nicdev: File streams only have one file-position. 05:08:30 DaDaDosPrompt: i am also n00b when it comes to LISP so am not sure that will work 05:09:03 i accomplished what i wanted by doing (file-position stream :start) before writing and it seems to work 05:09:07 you can make it seem like two positions by making your own read/write function 05:09:19 but i am not sure if it's the best solution 05:09:22 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 05:09:31 DaDaDosPrompt: you seed to use FILE-POSITION to reset the file position. 05:09:48 gigamonkey: that's what i just figured out! thanx 05:09:58 :) 05:10:11 Er, yeah, that was for you I guess nicdev. ;-) 05:11:32 tbatchelli [~user@c-71-198-214-67.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:37 ah, that is helpful info. 05:11:41 makes sense too 05:11:49 -!- katesmith__ [~katesmith@75-138-199-162.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:11:52 wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has joined #lisp 05:12:15 I thought we were talking about file-position, which is why I suggested writing your own read / write functions which will make it seem like there are two file positions. 05:14:17 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.190.39.231] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 05:14:47 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ogkdtfywnlmcstaz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:18:49 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:19:32 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 05:22:49 -!- teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:27:46 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.26.192] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 05:29:53 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:18 peterhil [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 05:33:17 aw crap. seems like git-cvsimport messed up the slime cvs->git gateway 05:33:26 (and also that I messed up quite a few commits as well) 05:33:48 some commits have the wrong author format, some are missing time zone data. the former is my fault, the latter might be cvs or git-cvsimport's. 05:34:08 pretty much means I have to start over the slime import thing, messing up commit SHA-1s. 05:35:00 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:35:45 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 05:37:14 oh, hah, it's not even git-cvsimport, it's togit. 05:38:47 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:43:37 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cwpjcbnhgnhljvia] has joined #lisp 05:46:10 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:25 -!- blackmirroxx [~Adium@c-4f661459-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:54:08 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h59n2c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit 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[ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:25:39 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-109.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:27:05 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 06:27:45 coffeant [~coffeant@125.34.42.254] has joined #lisp 06:28:15 -!- blackmirroxx [~Adium@c-4f66b154-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:31:20 -!- gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:35:43 -!- coffeant [~coffeant@125.34.42.254] has left #lisp 06:37:10 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-187-170.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:37:36 sacho [~sacho@87-126-187-170.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 06:39:05 drdo [~user@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 06:39:35 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:41:28 -!- tbatchelli [~user@c-71-198-214-67.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:48:26 -!- ISF__ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:49:15 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 06:50:29 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:51:56 teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has joined #lisp 06:55:08 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-hqkomvrgzfphtbla] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:56:32 -!- padisolta [~dolovor@46.197.40.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:58:33 nikodemus [~Nikodemus@GGMMMCMVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 07:00:16 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:03:29 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 07:03:55 Okay, this might be a retardedly simple question, but I keep reading how to use "let" in books, then coming home and trying to actually use it and getting compile errors. 07:04:16 mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has joined #lisp 07:04:34 Arsonide: and the question? 07:05:37 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:05:40 Nevermind, I think I got it. 07:05:50 mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has joined #lisp 07:05:54 My parenthesis are off again. I guess I should get used to that. 07:06:10 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has quit [Client Quit] 07:06:25 mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has joined #lisp 07:07:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-109.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:07:42 Arsonide: use paredit and slime-indentatation, and your parens will always be right 07:08:05 well, maybe a bit less tata... :) 07:08:07 -!- chenbing [~user@115.192.215.143] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:08:22 Right now I'm using Sublime Text 07:08:29 I guess I should set up emacs in windows 07:08:58 Arsonide: it's not much more than grabbing emacsw32 and installing it. 07:10:39 chenbing [~user@115.192.215.143] has joined #lisp 07:10:44 /msg akovalenko hi 07:11:14 jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has joined #lisp 07:11:37 hi 07:11:49 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:12:03 how can I make format to drop the float specifier? 07:12:16 zellio [~zellio@pool-96-224-176-75.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:19 I want to print double-float without the d0 at the end 07:12:24 -!- zellio [~zellio@pool-96-224-176-75.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 07:12:26 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-68-173-18-241.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 07:12:58 how to print ratio as float? 07:13:29 ~F 07:14:32 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:15:08 jjkola_work: did you try ~G yet 07:15:20 nope, I'll try 07:16:05 still prints the specifier 07:16:21 jjkola_work: then you'll have to read the manual 07:16:28 would setting the default float type to double-float help? 07:17:45 Does this emacsw32 have slime built in? 07:17:57 Arsonide: no. use quicklisp to install it. 07:18:09 and how do I set it up to use steel bank? 07:18:23 tried setting default float type but it didn't help 07:18:43 Arsonide: (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper) and follow the instructions. 07:19:22 Arsonide: you need to install quicklisp first, obviously. 07:19:28 jjkola_work: try ~$ 07:20:02 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:20:13 drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:49 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 07:23:26 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.77.163.109] has joined #lisp 07:26:36 Is (apply #'+ (list 1 2)) the same as (apply '+ (list 1 2)) ? Both seem to function the same. 07:28:29 Vivitron: ~$ made it to lose precision 07:28:33 Read up what APPLY takes as first argument (it takes a function designator, CLHS has a glossary explaining what that is) 07:29:32 H4ns: found out that I had to restart sbcl for the change to have effect, so ~G worked partly but added some padding 07:30:35 H4ns: changing the default float type to double-float was the magic trick which made the output just right 07:30:43 jjkola_work: ok 07:31:14 -!- nikodemus [~Nikodemus@GGMMMCMVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:31:27 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 07:39:05 Beetny [~Beetny@118.208.110.33] has joined #lisp 07:39:24 -!- CrazyThinker` is now known as CrazyThinker 07:43:40 nikodemus [~nikodemus@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5bdf00-15.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 07:43:56 marsell [~marsell@120.18.151.41] has joined #lisp 07:45:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:46:01 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.107.81] has joined #lisp 07:48:37 okay I'll bite. 07:48:42 I need a guide. 07:48:53 to install emacs and slime and stuff on windows, no idea how to install quicklisp 07:48:59 is that a plugin or another program, or what 07:49:12 on linux it was very straightforward. 07:50:03 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:50:42 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:52:24 YuleAthas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 07:52:26 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:52:52 nostoi [~nostoi@162.Red-79-156-245.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:35 stepnem [~stepnem@90.177.119.176] has joined #lisp 07:54:37 use virtualbox can easilly build a mirro of debian 07:54:41 -!- wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:55:13 wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has joined #lisp 07:55:54 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:56:02 well, the installation process for quicklisp is the same on linux and windows. 07:56:13 i'm not quite sure what the issue is. 07:56:49 pon1980 [~pon@195.67.88.105] has joined #lisp 07:59:15 -!- wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:59:57 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.148.251] has joined #lisp 07:59:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.148.251] has quit [Changing host] 07:59:57 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:01:10 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:02:43 -!- YuleAthas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:04:38 __lrk__ [~lrk@9DGW51.bang-olufsen.dk] has joined #lisp 08:05:28 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@90.177.119.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:07:41 alex` [~alex@host62-92-static.38-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:09:32 noname [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:34 stepnem [~stepnem@90.177.119.176] has joined #lisp 08:12:03 -!- derrida [~derrida-f@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Quit: I quit, yo.] 08:12:20 derrida [~derrida-f@www.informalcode.com] has joined #lisp 08:12:20 -!- derrida [~derrida-f@www.informalcode.com] has quit [Changing host] 08:12:21 derrida [~derrida-f@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 08:16:48 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:22:49 kushal [~kdas@116.203.204.164] has joined #lisp 08:22:49 -!- kushal [~kdas@116.203.204.164] has quit [Changing host] 08:22:49 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 08:27:38 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:30:48 udzinari [90a0e235@gateway/web/freenode/ip.144.160.226.53] has joined #lisp 08:31:28 Arsonide: could always just install lisp cabinet 08:32:49 -!- angavrilov 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09:04:13 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 09:04:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-193-56.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:06:54 -!- Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Cryotank2011] 09:08:34 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 09:08:44 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 09:09:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:09:11 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:09:45 chenbing [~user@115.192.215.143] has joined #lisp 09:10:15 sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-187-170.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 09:10:19 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:10:39 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 09:10:52 /msg akovalenko I have solved them all. Don't need paste any more [17:08] 09:10:53 09:11:02 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 09:11:04 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:11:35 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-187-170.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:12:22 vjacob [~vjacob@94-195-174-165.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:12:33 -!- wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:12:54 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:14:06 chenbing: we see your /msg 09:14:34 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 09:18:43 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 09:19:09 I'll only use msg under #freenode. avoid any more 09:19:10 accident in #lisp. :-) 09:22:15 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:22:30 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:23:02 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:23:05 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:23:15 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:25:30 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:26:29 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 09:32:40 anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has joined #lisp 09:35:54 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:36:46 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 09:37:18 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-63-146.lns1.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:38:31 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-63-146.lns1.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39:51 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-63-146.lns1.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:39:54 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:43:01 -!- DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@75-163-225-197.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: DaDaDosPrompt] 09:45:05 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 09:48:46 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:49:34 drdo` [~user@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 09:49:38 -!- YuleAthas [~athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:49:58 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 09:51:46 -!- drdo [~user@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:53:16 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-183-66-160.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:23 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:56:56 -!- chenbing [~user@115.192.215.143] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:58:14 chenbing [~user@115.192.215.143] has joined #lisp 10:01:59 Utkarsh: if + is cl:+ then yes. Otherwise it could be different. 10:04:40 YuleAthas [~athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 10:04:44 SlayersZ [~SlayersZ@70.65.233.0] has joined #lisp 10:05:06 Utkarsh: read 11.1.2.1.2 10:05:19 -!- derrida [~derrida-f@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:08:40 -!- __lrk__ [~lrk@9DGW51.bang-olufsen.dk] has left #lisp 10:10:13 -!- alex` [~alex@host62-92-static.38-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:10:45 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:04 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:15:24 -!- vjacob [~vjacob@94-195-174-165.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:17:26 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:17:31 waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has joined #lisp 10:17:59 -!- csdserver [~csdserver@unaffiliated/csddesk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:18:16 vjacob [~vjacob@94-195-174-165.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:18:38 gensym` [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:24 csdserver [~csdserver@76.177.111.55] has joined #lisp 10:21:26 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:21:54 nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:55 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:23:11 tsuru``` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-31-221.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:47 -!- tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-29-211.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:25:28 -!- Forty-3 [~kvirc@pool-96-255-130-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:25:42 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:28:25 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-42.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:28:43 -!- teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:30:25 -!- daniel__9 [~daniel@p5082A89B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:30:52 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082AB49.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:52 marw [~marw@unaffiliated/marw] has joined #lisp 10:35:52 c_arenz [~arenz@195.212.29.172] has joined #lisp 10:36:18 Ameshk [~jorix72Tk@115-64-27-246.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:36:53 -!- Ameshk [~jorix72Tk@115-64-27-246.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:38:06 -!- chenbing [~user@115.192.215.143] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:38:50 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-193-56.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:39:04 snearch [~snearch@g231234122.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:39:47 kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 10:40:42 entrix [~entrix@95-25-239-2.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:41:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:41:13 would you recommend to somebody interested in natural language processing to a) definitely learn lisp b) take a look at lisp? 10:41:19 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:41:22 Forty-3 [~kvirc@pool-96-255-130-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:41:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.148.251] has joined #lisp 10:41:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.148.251] has quit [Changing host] 10:41:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:41:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:42:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:42:18 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:43:59 marw: Not particularly. 10:45:15 marw: Although, what do you mean by NLP? 10:45:35 Zhivago: text corpora, morphology, semantics... 10:45:42 -!- snearch [~snearch@g231234122.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 10:45:52 snearch [~snearch@g231234122.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:46:40 -!- snearch [~snearch@g231234122.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:46:47 snearch [~snearch@g231234122.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:46:47 You'd probably be better off learning python for those purposes, at this point. 10:47:11 -!- SlayersZ [~SlayersZ@70.65.233.0] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:47:55 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-183-66-160.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:48:11 chenbing [~user@115.192.215.143] has joined #lisp 10:48:19 Zhivago: that was my problem. i know python to some extent, and i'd need a lot of time for the same "lisp ability"... 10:48:35 I take it that you're not a programmer. 10:48:51 that's right 10:49:17 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 10:50:27 Zhivago: i'm more of a linguist. 10:50:54 Then you're probably better off with python, although you may need to use some perl due to other horrible linguists. 10:53:48 rudi__ [~rudi@1x-193-157-195-57.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:53:54 neena [~neena@49.204.23.244] has joined #lisp 10:53:59 i guess i can always rewrite the code, if i ever become proficient in lisp 10:54:18 morning aliens 10:54:23 although the paradigm is completely different 10:54:41 Not really. Lisp is a procedural language. 10:54:44 how often you use circular lists ? 10:54:46 sylecn [~sylecn@98.143.159.155] has joined #lisp 10:55:06 kilon: Very rarely. 10:55:33 -!- rudi__ is now known as rudi 10:55:46 marw: Don't get me wrong -- I think that learning lisp is worthwhile -- I just don't know that it will help you with linguistics much. 10:56:14 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:14 you know I am asking because I am reading Land of Lisp and I must say it get me in my nerves abit , because I feel it introduce me to thing that I will never use like circular lists while all I want is learn the basic of lisp and build up from there 10:56:36 kilon: choose a different book then. 10:56:55 Perhaps there is a reason for doing so. 10:57:05 Lisp has no list objects. 10:57:13 Zhivago: of course not. i came here to hear opinions. 10:57:18 thats not my problem , I have, I am reading Practical Common Lisp and introduction to elisp form emacs website 10:57:21 Circular lists could be a useful way to demonstrate this. 10:57:42 -!- chenbing [~user@115.192.215.143] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:57:59 I keep reading Land of Lisp because I have purchased and I dont like to waste my money 10:58:25 marw: Computational linguistics is mostly statistical analysis and constraint satisfaction, these days, as I see it. 10:58:36 I thought Lisp was all about list object , no ? 10:58:39 kilon: i started with "common lisp: a gentle introduction .." 10:59:08 kilon: Sounds like you didn't understand lists yet. 10:59:30 marw: yeah I have downloaded that too, but there is too much blah blah in it, still questioning whether currently I really need to know all this stuff 10:59:47 Given that you're hideously ignorant, I suspect that you do. 10:59:56 Zhivago: I would be surprised If I did :D 10:59:59 kilon: i don't know lisp, that was just my choice, because i found the first book too practical 11:00:14 -!- snearch [~snearch@g231234122.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 11:00:21 marw: no problem will read that too, I love reading anyway 11:00:25 kilon: i think that the introduction was perfect. fasic stuff, cons, memory... 11:00:31 kilon: if you don't want to know how lisp works, maybe don't try learning it? 11:00:32 -!- noname [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00:53 H4ns: I would love to learn where you based this random assumption of yours 11:01:11 kilon: you complain about "blah blah" and about having to learn about circular lists. 11:01:13 Probably on your complaints. :) 11:01:51 well I want to learn lisp , but I want to learn first the parts that are immediatelly useful to me 11:02:02 kilon: I suggest that you learn what lists are. 11:02:06 I dont like a book that jumps around advanced concepts 11:02:16 kilon: find someone who writes a book that is structured the way you'd like it. 11:02:21 kilon: How would you know what an advanced concept is? 11:02:25 kilon: or choose another book. there are plenty of them. 11:02:38 Zhivago: that is why I asked how much you use circular lists 11:02:42 you are my eyes 11:02:47 ;) 11:02:59 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:03:23 How much I use them is irrelevant to what they teach you. 11:03:26 H4ns: sure, I have already another 3 that I am reading, I am only fishing for suggestion from you experienced lisps coders 11:03:31 kilon: i started with "paradigms of artificial intelligence programming"... and then i laughed at myself... being silly like that 11:03:37 IF I am doing it wrong I want to know about it 11:03:43 (One thing they should teach you is that there are no list objects in lisp) 11:03:49 not learning lisp is not an option 11:04:13 kilon: why don't you just pick _one_ book, read it back to back, then come back here? 11:04:14 marw: PAIP is a hard introduction to Common Lisp ;) 11:04:30 marw: Yeah I am still questioning my decision to learn lisps, but learning never hurts right ? 11:04:31 kilon: i can't quite seem how you think your whining could be of interest to us. 11:04:52 Abbaduxo [~jorixbwdX@115-64-27-246.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:04:53 I though this is was a Q & A channel 11:04:56 and i dont whine 11:05:12 kilon: you are wrong. this is not a q&a channel. 11:05:14 marw: Prolog has typically been a popular NLP tool language 11:05:14 daimrod: yes it is. i had to look up stuff all the time, and then i left it for some other time. 11:05:21 0_0 11:05:34 -!- Abbaduxo [~jorixbwdX@115-64-27-246.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:05:47 kilon: i am also questioning my lisp learning 11:05:49 then whats the purpose of #lisp if you dont mind asking 11:06:06 kilon: i use it to discuss lisp. 11:06:06 marw: good to know I am not alone 11:06:47 H4ns: so If I have a question about lisp I am not allowed to ask, but If I want to discuss lisp I am ? 0_0 11:07:23 Phoodus: i've read that lisp is very powerful metalanguage, and that is what i find appealing. and i kinda always choose less popular options... :)) 11:07:45 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 11:07:51 marw/kilon: typically there's been a #lisp-gardeners channel or something for lisp learners, and #lisp oldies are pretty adamant about lisp-learning discussion taking place elsewhere for some reason 11:08:10 sylecn` [~sylecn@49.79.89.200] has joined #lisp 11:08:25 marw: if you don't know lisp, then you're going to have to learn enough lisp to know how to build the tools that will start to help you learn NLP 11:09:03 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@98.143.159.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:09:04 if you don't know prolog, then it's already a tool that can start helping you learn NLP via inferring language semantics from possible descriptive matches 11:09:26 so there's probably a shorter path for learning established NLP stuff through Prolog 11:09:26 Phoodus: well my main experience so far with #python and #blenderpython and #blendercoder which are very noob friendly, so I assumed this channel was too, If you want me to leave I can leave and carry my learning elsewhere, I dont see a point staying if I cant ask questions 11:09:28 alex` [~alex@host62-92-static.38-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:09:54 _I_ personally think the newbie-unfriendliness is retarded, but I seem to be in the vocal minority 11:09:58 kilon: It's just not very whining schoolgirl friendly. 11:10:29 Phoodus: i'll take a look at prolog again, thanks 11:10:35 Zhivago is a great example about whining about other people, but not doing anything to actually help them become people who he wouldn't whine about 11:10:56 Zhivago: does that mean I am whining schoolgirl ? 11:11:17 kilon: Well, something like that. 11:11:26 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:11:35 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:11:47 Phoodus needs to learn what 'whining' means. 11:12:08 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 11:12:17 yes, I think "Waah, people who don't know Lisp yet are in my channel!" is whining. Might differ from your definitino 11:12:23 -!- tarmil [~user@business-178-48-18-229.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:12:33 tarmil [~user@business-178-48-18-229.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:13:02 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.74.224] has joined #lisp 11:13:05 phoodus: And who said that? 11:13:07 marw: A bit off-topic, but you might like this: http://disi.unitn.it/~bernardi/RSISE11/ 11:13:07 I did not whine, do not whine, will not whine... but anyone is entitled to an opinion 11:13:28 Phoodus: i think you are carrying on a meta-discussion that is the continuation of kilon's whining. get on with it. 11:13:31 kilon: Then get on with learning your circular lists or pick another book. 11:13:36 Zhivago: My summary of much if your reaction to people attempting to learn Lisp by asking the people here, who are expected to know it 11:13:44 s/if/of/ 11:14:21 kilon: don't mind the drama; Zhivago can be offensive, but people mean well and don't generally mind newbies here. 11:14:31 phoodus: Time for you to take a remedial reading comprehension course. 11:14:38 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:14:41 Ralith: thanks man, I appreciate it 11:15:03 anyway my question has been answered , next episode 11:15:12 Phoodus: people have vastly different experiences with getting their lisp noob questions answered in #lisp. some are successful, some are not. it depends on how they ask, mainly. 11:15:26 H4ns: I agree 11:15:48 steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:15:57 *marw* thanks to chu - very useful link 11:16:59 -!- el-maxo_ [~max@p57A56AB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:17:11 i like channels like #lisp, #emacs and #R they are very useful, and not for the sole purpose of the names they have 11:17:21 marw, since she appears to be advocating a simply typed lambda calculus, you might want to check out "lambda prolog" which is, as you guessed, a typed prolog (I'm currently doing the summer school she's teaching at) 11:17:28 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 11:18:09 kilon: you should bear in mind that high-quality textbooks usually have a reason for covering a topic, and remember that you'll be most successful with a full understanding of your environment. Even seeming irrelevancies like circular lists can be worth study, as they can help you to understand more general things. 11:19:35 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:19:37 Ralith: that is what I asked in the first place, before my "whining" , does it worth to understand circular lists, thanks , we will read them again. The concepts are quite alien to me, and I really need to know I am moving inside the right path 11:19:48 *I will read them again 11:19:58 circular lists in particular can cause infinite loops and such, so understanding how they're formed and that looping over a list might not exit are important to know 11:20:36 It's also useful in understanding what a list is in CL. 11:20:39 kilon: if you understand lisp well enough to write a large project in it, circular lists are trivial. Therefore, if circular lists are giving you trouble, that's a good sign that you'll benefit from working out why and making sense of it. 11:20:43 And why there are no list objects in CL. 11:21:01 And it shouldn't take more than a few minutes to understand. 11:21:02 ok then I will shut up and go back to study :D 11:21:11 kilon: do you know other programming languages, or is lisp your first 11:21:12 An excellent choice. 11:21:26 I only seek direction from people that have been there and done that, thats all, if something is worth learn I will learn it 11:21:41 kilon: 25 minutes wasted. you could be understanding circular lists by now. 11:21:50 kilon: You mean ... like the author of the book? :) 11:21:59 osa1 [~sinan@141.196.100.2] has joined #lisp 11:22:11 I know assembly, c++ , gwbasic, dbase, clipper, java, c# , python and smalltalke, done serious work only in python and delphi 11:22:33 Zhivago has a good point here. 11:22:37 well, then singly-linked lists should be familiar to you 11:22:48 Zhivago: he is one man, here there are many 11:23:07 i rather have a group of opinion on a subject 11:23:12 and land of lisp does seem to jump around conceptually a fair amount 11:23:16 I for one doubt I'm as experienced as LoL's author; you should rate what he thinks is worth it for a beginner to learn accordingly. 11:23:26 Ah. Learning by committee. 11:23:35 hah 11:23:47 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-190-7.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:23:55 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 11:24:02 I am a lawyer and that is how we learn , learning from one source is consider bad, maybe for lispers and coding is diffirent 11:24:17 i am a noob coder so I would not know 11:24:36 I thought lawyers had to be able to punctuate properly. 11:24:39 Lisp has a culture of "bang at it" 11:24:43 for better & worse 11:24:44 kilon: you're quite proficient for a noob 11:24:56 everyone's a noob coder 11:25:07 until become Ritchie 11:25:28 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@118.208.110.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:25:54 marw: I have been coding for 20 years now since I was 8 , but never done anything beyond little experiments , just 10-50 lines of code, I was just having fun nothing serious, so I consider myself noob 11:27:20 except the last year that I took coding alot more seriously 11:29:08 mlkith [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has joined #lisp 11:29:08 kilon: i'd like to ask you why lisp now, but i believe that we might be wearing out our welcome with this small talk 11:29:12 -!- entrix [~entrix@95-25-239-2.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:29:32 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-115-113-2.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:29:38 anyway, i think i'll continue with "gentle" lisp introduction and work more on the theoretical approaches to what i'm interested in 11:33:22 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-115-113-2.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:33:28 kilon: may I ask you an offtopci question: why do you put a space before comma if multiple sources indicate that it's not done that way? 11:33:44 chenbing [~user@115.192.215.143] has joined #lisp 11:35:24 jdz: I find it more readable this way, why it matters ? 11:35:32 kilon: of course it does. 11:35:39 kilon: are you writing stuff for yourself to read? 11:36:26 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has left #lisp 11:36:36 no just for people who like my writing style :D 11:36:52 *marw* salutes 11:37:03 kilon: punctuation is supposed to be put right after a word, not on a new line by itself (where it will end up eventually when word processor/typesetting prorgram/web browser shows the text) 11:37:09 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-41-199.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:34 *Phoodus* is still annoyed that his proper double-space after fullstops are replaced with a single space in HTML viewing, and refuses to use   or whatever it is 11:38:00 Phoodus: what's so "proper" about double space? 11:38:14 so i should type like this - > hello, there ? 11:38:14 'twas proper when I learned typing, that's all 11:38:20 kilon: yes 11:38:24 will do 11:38:27 NETX! 11:38:31 :D 11:38:47 *NEXT! 11:39:02 double-space is essential for proper M-a / M-e navigation in emacs! 11:40:01 for what it's worth, i also put double space after sentence ending punctuation. mainly to differentiate from other usages of punctuation (especially period). 11:40:43 but that's at semantic level. i don't really care how many spaces the browser ends up showing. 11:40:44 It also goes after a colon: See how this is also capitalized; this is not. 11:40:50 -!- marw [~marw@unaffiliated/marw] has left #lisp 11:41:04 why should the word after colon be capitalized? 11:41:17 for emphasis 11:41:42 Colons are technically sentence separators. What follows the colon really should be a complete sentence. 11:41:45 at least that how we do it in Greek 11:41:47 never heard capitalizing a word is used for emphasis. 11:42:25 then I guess its a Greek thing 11:42:37 of course different languages have different rules of capitalization. 11:42:54 for example God is used quite often 11:43:00 instead of god 11:43:14 it's not about emphasis i think. 11:43:31 don't now if the same happens in english 11:44:16 yes, in english it's "some god those guys worship" as a title vs "Oh God I acknowledge you" as effectively a name 11:44:49 aha 11:44:58 though when it comes to cursing, leaving out the capitalization of the distinctly christian reference is often done 11:45:04 and yes, this is very much offtopic :) 11:45:13 it's about proper nouns vs. common nouns 11:46:04 it's about natural language processing (maybe in lisp :) 11:46:38 yet many intro NLP programs in Lisp use symbols instead of strings, and thus tend to become case-insensitive! 11:47:00 oh so that what it is i thought when I saw NLP , you meant Neuro Linguistic Programming :D which is a psychology theory 11:47:22 kilon: you're still doing it. 11:47:28 so I found it curious you knew about it 11:47:31 oups 11:48:07 I am creature of habit sorry, will take some time but I will fix it :D 11:48:45 kilon: so by NLP you mean Neuro Linguistic Programming? 11:49:26 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:49:35 oh, it was some other guy asking, and somebody else brought up the NLP acronym 11:49:36 jdz: yes it a psychology theory that explains habit and how we can change them , fears too etc 11:49:45 oups 11:49:54 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:57 *kilon* slaps himself 11:50:06 NLP in Lisp: http://www.informatics.susx.ac.uk/research/groups/nlp/gazdar/nlp-in-lisp/ 11:50:09 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 11:50:59 NLP in psychology ---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming , thanks flip214 11:51:09 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:51:26 Phoodus: there already is so little information in written text, and using symbols to represent words loses even more of it... 11:51:53 i probably phrased it badly 11:52:21 oh, it was marw asking about NLP, not kilon. And yeah, "Natural Language Processing" is the common use of that acronym around programming, especially with AI-popular langauges 11:52:35 using symbols to denote words works in toy examples, though. maybe that's why they are used in introductory materials. 11:56:13 epsil [~vegard@ti0145a380-0200.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:56:58 ISF__ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 11:58:08 jdz: do you some difference in storing the (case-sensitive) words as symbols in some package vs. storing them in a hash-table? a package is typically only a hash-table, too ... (1st order approximation) 11:59:53 flip214: which intro text that uses symbols to represent words use case-sensitive symbols? 12:01:04 jdz: no intro text that I know of ... but (intern "CaseSensitiveWord" some-package) works nicely, and is not that different from (setf (gethash ...)) 12:01:17 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-115-113-2.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:01:25 flip214: I tend to use flyweighted strings in a weak hashtable, so that they garbage collect 12:01:42 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.163.240] has joined #lisp 12:01:46 and it's easy to put the reader into case-sensitive mode and do a (read) from some file ... 12:01:49 -!- kooll is now known as koollman 12:02:06 though in practice it's doubtful real text would blow RAM due to the amount of unique symbols, it's still a weakness that could get hit if you spew garbage into it 12:02:44 Phoodus: I just wanted to remark that today, with multi-GB machines, it's not that easy to run OOM ;] 12:02:52 yes it is ;) 12:03:05 *Phoodus* is the one running a 9GB nursery 12:03:07 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:03:08 of course, some kind of input sanitation is always good to have 12:04:41 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:08:37 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:08:57 [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 12:12:33 -!- epsil [~vegard@ti0145a380-0200.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 12:15:58 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 12:16:31 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-115-113-2.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:16:33 -!- neena [~neena@49.204.23.244] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:16:56 pkhuong: Xecto! 12:17:09 -!- waveman [~tim@203-214-39-56.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:17:20 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:22:39 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-115-113-2.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:23:45 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cwpjcbnhgnhljvia] has left #lisp 12:36:24 -!- DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 12:37:11 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:37:28 *Phoodus* waits and waits for sbcl to build, xc'd from clisp, in a VM, on a slightly-older laptop 12:38:22 pnq [~nick@AC8135DD.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:41:27 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:42:14 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-63-146.lns1.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:44:21 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 12:45:08 -!- sylecn` [~sylecn@49.79.89.200] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:45:17 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:49:14 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 12:51:25 triple classy 12:53:00 -!- vjacob [~vjacob@94-195-174-165.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:54:13 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:54:54 Joreji [~thomas@137.226.96.20] has joined #lisp 12:58:06 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:58:18 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:00:20 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:00:31 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:05:55 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:06:09 nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-229-208.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:06:49 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:07:07 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:08:25 -!- mlkith [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (EOF)] 13:08:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:08:55 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-115-113-2.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:11:05 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@160-76-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:11:27 lemoinem [~swoog@219-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:03 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8135DD.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:13:05 epsil [~vegard@ti0145a380-0200.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:15:01 pnq [~nick@AC8135DD.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:15:29 -!- tsuru``` is now known as tsuru` 13:15:36 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:16:33 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:17:16 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 13:20:10 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:20:16 leo2007 [~leo@123.121.202.35] has joined #lisp 13:20:17 rudi: " double-space is essential for proper M-a / M-e navigation in emacs!" <-- Not with (setq sentence-end-double-space nil) (setq default-sentence-end sentence-end) (setq sentence-end "[.?!][]\"')]*\\($\\|\t\\| \\)[ \t\n]*") in your .emacs! 13:21:03 But then, with things like etc. you get wrong results (like in this sentence). 13:21:19 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:21:19 double-space is a security feature against spurious sentence-breaks ;) 13:21:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.61.201] has joined #lisp 13:21:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.61.201] has quit [Changing host] 13:21:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:22:23 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 13:22:24 rudi: I don't see what the problem is with an occasional heuristics failure in this case. You just press the M-a or M-e again, no? 13:22:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@137.226.96.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:23:27 Evil_Piccolo [~anma@ip-83-212-222-134.adsl.aueb.gr] has joined #lisp 13:25:01 Hexstream: for interactive use it's sure not a big deal. 13:27:32 -!- alek_b [~alek_b@99-10-120-63.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:27:51 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:32:47 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.220.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:33:17 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 13:34:07 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 13:34:47 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8135DD.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:35:27 pnq [~nick@AC8135DD.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:10 -!- eataix [eataix@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-iwzuhypiqryoffhe] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:36:33 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has joined #lisp 13:37:07 marsell [~marsell@120.18.138.222] has joined #lisp 13:37:16 -!- reb [user@nat/google/x-pvrbnffguzizbagv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:37:26 Phoodus: a 9GB nursery? 13:38:52 brown` [user@nat/google/x-xzbxqcmtuwafcmhc] has joined #lisp 13:39:20 -!- brown` is now known as reb 13:39:48 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:41:09 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:43:29 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:07 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:45:08 -!- mmullis_ [~mmullis@208.65.90.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:45:25 mmullis [~mmullis@208.65.90.233] has joined #lisp 13:46:50 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.121.202.35] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.92.1] 13:47:54 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:19 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 13:53:20 H4ns: what libraries do you currently use when you build a new website? bknr, i assume? 13:53:54 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:54:02 cyrillos [~cyrill@195.214.232.10] has joined #lisp 13:54:18 madnificent: i don't currently build new web sites. :) - but yes, i have made some smaller stuff in the past and used both bknr-datastore and bknr-web for that. 13:55:18 ah sorry, i thought you were still actively building new stuff 13:55:46 madnificent: sure, just not web sites 13:55:53 yeah 13:56:19 (at least not in my day job) 13:56:36 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 13:56:53 bga [bga@fr6.freebnc.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:45 i wanted to check whether or not you had some solid opinion on which framework you'd use if you'd have to build something new. perhaps you still have one. 13:57:48 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:58:00 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has joined #lisp 13:58:02 *felideon* is reading the first few pages of the BKNR manual 14:00:46 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 14:00:47 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:27 madnificent: what kind of website are you wanting to build? 14:02:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 14:02:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 14:02:56 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:03:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 14:03:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 14:04:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 14:04:08 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:04:55 ThomasH [46822ea0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.130.46.160] has joined #lisp 14:05:16 -!- ThomasH [46822ea0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.130.46.160] has quit [Changing host] 14:05:16 ThomasH [46822ea0@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 14:05:40 Greetings lispers 14:06:03 felideon: it's mostly small things that i encounter. in many cases it's trivial data entry. i have my own framework, but i want to know what others use and look at it more thoroughly, if it's worth switching, i will. 14:06:08 hello ThomasH 14:12:22 the bknr web framework is undocumented, sadly. 14:12:58 madnificent: yeah, we tried various GC nursery sizes, and 9GB seemed to balance out the best on our particular server size 14:13:10 H4ns: but can bknr-store be used with e.g. hunchentoot? 14:13:19 felideon: certainly. 14:13:41 felideon: it is just a persistence layer, and orthogonal to, e.g. web servers. 14:13:46 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:13:49 madnificent: well if you already have a framework, I don't think there's any Lisp web framework out there that would warrant a switch just for CRUD 14:13:50 felideon: i use it like that in blogworks, works like a charm 14:14:12 felideon: for new applications i might make more sense to use something others use as well 14:14:44 H4ns: ah right. I misread a sentence in the manual, but I see what you mean now :) 14:15:06 How am I supposed to refer to .emacs portably? I tried (make-pathname :name "" :type "emacs" :defaults (user-homedir-pathname)) but it doesn't work (apparently you can't have a zero-length name like that). 14:15:32 Hexstream: you are not "supposed" to refer to .emacs portably :) 14:15:49 does :name ".emacs" not work? 14:16:11 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 14:16:21 #P".emacs" probably works best. 14:16:27 madnificent: blogworks? i get a few different results in the googlz 14:17:41 H4ns: That would be relative to current directory... But yeah, :name ".emacs" seems to work. 14:18:00 #P".emacs" and merge-pathnames would probably be better 14:18:14 or at least, a bit shorter & clearer 14:18:20 Hexstream: not :name ".emacs", #P".emacs" instead. 14:18:27 Hexstream: what Phoodus says, too 14:18:30 Phoodus: Yeah, that's what I was thinking just now. 14:18:38 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@124.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:21:49 -!- johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-99-56-62-46.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Nodding off now.] 14:22:30 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:54 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 14:24:37 felideon: factory.knowified.com runs it 14:25:36 felideon: and github.com/madnificent/blogworks i guess 14:26:43 centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-182-204.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:59 I see 14:27:28 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:27:28 what were you using before bknr? interesting that it gave you a 5x load improvement 14:27:51 fridge 14:28:04 it was an OO layer i constructed on top of postres 14:28:47 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:28:50 i was a bit surprised about the speed gain though, i hadn't expected the latency for the database to be so high. i'd likely go for bknr.datastore again, it's a nice system. 14:30:43 fridge was handy in the past as it made integration with in-house non-lisp software easier, as we could work on the same database. but bknr-datastore is vastly simpler to set up. i did like the idea of migrations in sql, that seems to be harder in bknr.datastore (in fact, i'm not so sure how i should update the model) 14:32:00 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:32:24 -!- reb [user@nat/google/x-xzbxqcmtuwafcmhc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:43 madnificent: i have done this with in memory migration steps in the past. 14:33:13 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:33:20 naiv [~naiv@AAnnecy-651-1-31-249.w86-209.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:33:32 madnificent: i.e. if i had to upgrade a store, i loaded it with the old version, loaded the new version, ran migration code. the mop has hooks for that, too, but i've never used that. 14:34:15 H4ns: it seems to be a cumbersome and risky manual process to me 14:34:25 madnificent: also, the snapshot and transaction log loader has hooks that allow you to upgrade objects while restoring an old store to a newer version. 14:35:06 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.138.222] has quit [Quit: marsell] 14:35:33 madnificent: it was not hard to do when i did it, so i never bothered to write stuff that might make it safer. 14:35:59 H4ns: is that documented somewhere? i'd like to read it before going into this further, it's a very interesting topic. 14:36:55 madnificent: it is not, no. you need to read txn.lisp, which is very much recommended anyways. 14:37:45 (and object.lisp, too) 14:38:01 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:38:45 H4ns: joy, 1600 loc of lecture :) 14:38:52 H4ns: which first? 14:39:08 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-114-201-60.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:39:22 madnificent: look at txn.lisp first - that is the transaction mechanism, the obect store is built on top of that. 14:39:34 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8135DD.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:39:34 -!- nitro_id_ [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-229-208.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:39:53 thanks 14:40:24 H4ns: i'll shout about it on #lisp sometime next week, probably 14:40:58 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 14:41:08 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 14:41:32 madnificent: good! i hope it makes for an acceptable read :) 14:42:07 H4ns: what is a typical use case for a snapshot? is it much different than a 'backup' ? 14:42:30 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 14:42:45 felideon: it serves to speed up restarts. replaying the transaction log can become too costly over time. 14:43:02 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-195-57.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 14:43:20 felideon: in my production systems, i snapshot once per day at night, automatically. it usually takes a few seconds which effectively halts the system during that time. 14:43:41 oh, ok. i see 14:43:47 felideon: i have long pondered that snapshotting could be done in the background by the way of using fork(), but never got to implement that. 14:44:12 how often would you snapshot in the background? 14:44:35 felideon: not more often, but it would be possible to do that w/o halting the system. 14:45:08 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 14:45:17 felideon: fwiw, blogworks doesn't have much traffic and as such i never took a snapshot 14:45:31 on a side-note i thought c|mell had some kind of object store also, you might want to look at that too. 14:45:50 H4ns: ah I see 14:47:13 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.178] has joined #lisp 14:47:59 pferor`` [~user@172.233.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:48:15 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.26.192] has joined #lisp 14:50:27 -!- pferor` [~user@122.Red-2-137-179.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:50:39 felideon: just now i see that the account creation on blogworks is dead, if you'd like to try i can try to revive it. but really, i should just take a new look at the whole thing. 14:51:27 ah, I was just looking out of curiosity, since I hadn't heard of it. 14:51:51 just poked around a few links :P 14:51:54 dehun [~user@djgames.com.ua] has joined #lisp 14:52:04 felideon: i know, you might've wanted to click around as a user as well. it's not something for serious stuff 14:52:59 gkeith_glaptop_ [~gkeith@c-66-30-3-183.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:27 ah gotcha 14:53:45 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 14:54:32 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-114-201-60.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:37 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:58:13 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 14:58:27 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [~gkeith@c-66-30-3-183.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:00:30 -!- YuleAthas [~athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:39 hi fe[nl]ix 15:10:09 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-114-201-60.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:10:54 felideon: another interesting thing to look at, in my opinion, is the way LoL handles the displaying of objects and such. i haven't read it in depth, but it seems like a good place to use AOP. the documentation didn't really tell me that much though, and information on how to use ContextL is scarce. 15:12:11 yeah i always wanted to play with LoL but never had a chance 15:12:58 ContextL has a bit of documentation, and there's an obscure draft manual of LoL 15:14:02 hi Blkt 15:15:04 felideon: i touched on that draft manual. i think i'd rather reconstruct what's needed than use what LoL offers. perhaps just to get some experience with the system. i found the LoL documentation didn't quite tell me the stuff i needed to know. 15:16:43 madnificent: use the source, Luke. 15:17:03 of LoL? 15:18:08 I haven't looked at it personally, but I would imagine it has some documentation in there as there is in UCW 15:18:36 i'd prefer an architectural overview for something as new as this first. especially as i don't know any of the things its built upon. 15:18:48 s/its/it's/ 15:21:35 HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82acc5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:09 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 15:23:29 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 15:26:15 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM1-114-201-60.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:29:56 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7-dev] 15:32:55 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.74.224] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 15:33:38 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82acc5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 15:35:18 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:37:58 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.163.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:44:29 -!- waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:50 YuleAthas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 15:45:14 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:47:26 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 15:49:32 -!- blackwol` is now known as blackwolf 15:49:59 -!- lnostdal_ [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:50:12 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 9.0/20111206234556]] 15:51:17 pnq [~nick@AC826076.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:51:58 lnostdal_ [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:13 waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has joined #lisp 15:53:12 If I want to write a method for NO-APPLICABLE-METHOD, do I have to subclass the STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION class with no changes and define the generic function using the class for discrimination? 15:53:40 *subclass for discrimination* 15:53:44 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:53:45 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:09 -!- cnl [~cnl@95.106.65.176] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:55:53 ThomasH: I suspect it's more often used with eql specialization. 15:57:22 Xach: I don't know how to do it that way, either. 15:57:31 When I tried it, it failed to resolve. 15:58:31 What did you try? 15:59:59 ThomasH: you need to specialize on eql to the function object, i.e. (defmethod no-applicable-method ((function (eql #'foo)) &rest args) 16:00:08 -!- alex` [~alex@host62-92-static.38-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:00:19 Doh!, I used (eql 'foo) 16:02:58 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@195.212.29.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:03:18 I'm in habit of not using the function reader macro, so I forget to use it when necessary. 16:03:48 ThomasH: are you a ruby programmer? :) 16:04:51 H4ns: Hah! Fortunately, I forced myself to learn CL just before ruby became the language du jour. 16:05:09 Otherwise, I might have learned it. Although, at the time I was toying with Lua. 16:05:43 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:06:03 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:05 ThomasH: no offense intended. i'm just in the metaprogramming chapter of the ruby book, and it seems like no-applicable-method would be a natural fit for what rubyists want from a metaprogramming facility. 16:06:28 well, not quite. but almost. 16:06:35 -!- bieber [~quassel@162-78.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:06:48 -!- pferor`` [~user@172.233.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:06:49 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A94C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:06 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 16:07:12 bieber [~quassel@162-78.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:45 H4ns: Heh, I'm just happy I didn't delve into ruby because I was coming off of Python and had decided that if the next language didn't work out, I was going to commit myself solely to Fortran and give up on learning new languages. 16:08:06 And I doubt ruby would have been any improvement over Python. 16:08:08 ThomasH: i'm glad you were saved from that 16:08:22 ThomasH: ruby is way cooler than python, i'd say. 16:09:07 -!- saschakb` [~saschakb@p4FEA102C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:19 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Client Quit] 16:09:59 H4ns: Perhaps, but for my uses, I'm not sure it had the necessary differences. Anyway, when people ask me why I use CL, my one line answer is, "It requires the least amount of translation to express my thoughts in code." 16:10:15 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:10:21 H4ns: on your article about ruby. the syntax doesn't get in your way and it becomes very natural over time. i prefer lisp for its expressivity, but ruby code can be written in a way that it's easy to grasp (but you can also make a complete mess of it) 16:10:23 I'm not sure most people appreciate the value of that. 16:10:33 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 16:10:39 ThomasH: lisp messed with your brain :) 16:10:43 ThomasH: they don't need to, you needs to 16:10:57 madnificent: you can write bad fortran in any language. 16:11:07 H4ns: point taken 16:11:13 actually, the ruby's metaprogramming stuff is pretty cute 16:12:35 H4ns: about the messing with your head: it sure does. i think dto once linked to an article about how people read code, what they eye pattern is when they look at it. when i was giving a few lisp lessons to my co-worker, i explained to him that parens denote groups of code. a few days ago he told me the automatic indentation immediately triggered a response in his head that something was wrong, the blocks weren't positioned right. 16:12:35 ergo, i think that lisp really messes with your head, you read it completely differently than other coed. 16:12:53 -!- pon1980 [~pon@195.67.88.105] has left #lisp 16:13:00 s/coed/code/ 16:13:06 sacho [~sacho@87-126-187-170.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 16:13:21 madnificent: coed? Freudian slip? 16:13:38 hmh. integer-length gives me the position of the highest bit 16:13:59 am i missing out on an easy way to get the lowest bit? 16:14:06 madnificent: every language has specific ways how your read it. language with rich syntax guide you by the special characters. language with significant whitespace guide you by the spacing etc. lisp is not special in that. 16:14:50 ThomasH: i was thinking the same thing! :P 16:14:58 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.74.224] has joined #lisp 16:14:59 Kenjin_ [~josesanto@2.82.74.224] has joined #lisp 16:15:27 Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:38 H4ns: but you read it sufficiently different as the structure /is/ everything. there's (in normal circumstances) no fancy symbols to look out for which completely wack up the meaning of the code. 16:16:11 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-187-170.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:16:18 johnstorey [~johnstore@12.208.167.194] has joined #lisp 16:16:20 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 16:17:26 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:17:28 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:17:42 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:17:45 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:30 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:18:37 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.143.46] has joined #lisp 16:19:42 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:20:26 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Client Quit] 16:21:18 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@195.214.232.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:23:11 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:25:18 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 16:26:36 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:26:50 -!- johnstorey [~johnstore@12.208.167.194] has quit [Quit: joining all red shirts in their final fate] 16:27:57 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:29:05 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA102C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:31:16 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 16:32:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:35:28 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:36:58 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 16:37:39 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.57.213] has joined #lisp 16:37:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.57.213] has quit [Changing host] 16:37:39 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:38:46 mon_key: but go ahead! 16:40:49 H4ns: I'm considering forking the bknr. systems in an effort to provide some documentation. Apropos your recent ECLM talk I'm curious to know if you would welcome an effort to package qualify some of the symbols that are currently imported via :import. For example changing with-element to cxml:with-element ?? 16:41:16 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:41:26 mon_key: i'm all for that! 16:41:58 mon_key: bknr is rather old and we made several design decisions that i'd not make the same way today. 16:42:12 mon_key: :import being one of them :) 16:42:28 H4ns: if you have a list, i think many of us could learn from it. 16:42:51 ahhhh, my sbcl is so old it does not like non-ascii args to run-program 16:42:54 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:42:56 madnificent: i don't - my talk was about some of that. 16:43:00 *Xach* wonders if/how he can update the running system 16:43:20 teggi [~teggi@123.21.164.107] has joined #lisp 16:43:21 H4ns: Yes, I read this yesterday: http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/bknr-devel/2010-June/000272.html 16:43:53 *madnificent* hasn't seen H4ns's talk yet, how odd i must've missed it :( 16:43:59 H4ns: in particular the last paragraph which seems to reflect your recent talk 16:44:08 H4ns: btw, I've listened your talk and though the sound is really messy, I've enjoyed it. 16:44:53 mon_key: yeah. i'm repeating myself :) 16:44:56 daimrod: thanks! 16:46:56 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:47:54 Night-hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 16:50:04 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 16:50:06 i recently read famous steve yegge http://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/the-emacs-problem post on lisp. 16:50:09 Good evening 16:50:47 his idea really doesn't convince me about lisp problem on text processing 16:51:28 what's his point ? 16:51:56 tl;dr 16:52:45 Night-hacks: the problem is that people don't know that lisp is the solution. 16:52:54 HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82acc5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:07 H4ns: Maybe, but what you said in the talk really hit home w/r/t the various BKNR sub-systems -- The overall framework is quite large (and impressive), but as an initiate I am finding it sometimes rather difficult to identify the context of certain symbols. In any event, as I am finding myself annotating the source of my local BKNR branches with package qualifiers I figured you might be interested in making use of this effort. 16:53:50 mon_key: i'll certainly merge changes that qualify unqualified symbols, if you make them! 16:54:05 mon_key: maybe that could even be automated in an interesting way 16:54:06 Night-hacks: at first they use regexp because it's good enough. When it's not good enough they use XML, then they make XML able to execute code and they have a unreadable lisp. 16:54:07 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:54:16 an* 16:54:31 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:54:53 daimrod: yegge is right about XML, which makes language independent data container 16:55:20 daimrod: but you can manipulate xml in any language ! 16:55:44 Night-hacks: You can manipulate sexp in any language as well. 16:55:59 Night-hacks: The difference being if you use lisp, the sexp become code. 16:56:00 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:56:11 yes but in those langs data is not code 16:56:13 Night-hacks: you can also read this http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp.html which says more or less the same thing. 16:57:13 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.117] has joined #lisp 16:57:40 using sexp is great feature which lacks in other languages, so what makes lisp a bad lang for emacs !! 16:57:52 that's the point that i don't get from yegge article 16:58:05 entrix_ [~entrix@95-28-72-1.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 16:58:17 Night-hacks: Ah. I just skimmed the article, but I think he was complaining specifically about elisp. 16:58:24 Because TECO is *so* much better! 16:58:57 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-182-204.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:59:04 Night-hacks: likely the curly-brace inclined will eventually use some solution involving the "new diff" anounced a few days back 16:59:42 I missed that announcement, where is this "new diff"? Not that I envision it solving any problems, just curious. 17:00:38 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 17:00:39 http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9222509/Usenix_Dartmouth_updating_diff_grep_Unix_tools 17:02:09 My translation: "Dartmouth is Greenspunning diff and grep" 17:02:25 Ugh, I think I just had aneurysm. 17:02:27 Night-hacks: in what way are s-expressions not language-agnostic? it is a data-format like any other. the fact that no sane language uses XML as a native data format natively in its code (please don't mension xslt) doesn't mean XML is a good thing. 17:03:22 -!- steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: quit?] 17:03:44 madnificent: xslt uses xml as its native data format, and it is tres cool 17:03:49 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-183-66-160.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:59 madnificent: you called for that, but i mean it :) 17:04:02 didn't you see he said please? 17:04:07 The metaphor for the "new diff" is tying your right wrist behind your back to your left ankle and then "hopping" a marathon. Yeah, it can be done, but you sure look silly. 17:04:23 Xach: i took that as encouragement :) 17:04:30 centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-182-204.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:51 H4ns: btw, while you are in america, we should meet up for a beer. we can meet in virginia. 17:05:45 Are :ANSI-CL and :COMMON-LISP in *features* equivalent? 17:05:48 gee, virginia, that's like a 2 hour flight from here? 17:06:03 virginia is... not particularly small itself 17:06:04 And from here. Perfeclty in the middle! 17:06:20 i think XML is a much easier to read ( the only thing that comes to mind ) ! 17:06:38 kami: No. 17:06:44 kami: see http://l1sp.org/cl/*features* 17:06:52 -!- akovalenko [~akovalenk@95.72.96.181] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.92.1] 17:06:52 Night-hacks: Much easier to read than... 17:06:58 Xach: i need to pass, though. i'll be heading back home on saturday. 17:07:18 than sexp for non lispers. 17:07:41 Night-hacks: Just checking. 17:07:46 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.117] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:07:59 Xach: thanks. 17:08:09 Night-hacks: really ? 17:08:24 daimrod: Don't respond, please. 17:08:50 -!- e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-jndsnvzebuuyhsfx] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:09:03 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-183-66-160.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:09:10 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:09:39 ThomasH: don't you share your ideas ?! 17:10:28 H4ns: it is, but i still find it annoying to specify every rule in xml. but yes, it is. 17:10:49 -!- pnq [~nick@AC826076.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:11:41 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.169.72.204] has joined #lisp 17:11:46 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.169.72.204] has quit [Changing host] 17:11:46 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 17:11:49 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:12:39 i find lisp way way way easier to read than XML and I am extremely fresh with lisp 17:13:26 be careful, or lisp will slap you 17:13:49 it depends where :D 17:13:58 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 17:14:18 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 17:18:03 -!- gensym` [~user@dslc-082-082-103-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:18:21 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:18:44 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f71d8ba.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:19:11 dys [~andreas@krlh-5f71d8ba.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:54 oudeis [~oudeis@2.54.254.4] has joined #lisp 17:20:03 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@90.177.119.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:20:23 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 17:22:02 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 17:23:08 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:23:56 tbatchelli [~user@ppp-71-139-28-179.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:35 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:25:08 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA102C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:31 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82acc5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 17:25:55 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA102C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:29:14 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A94C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:30:17 HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82acc5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:17 -!- felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:31:07 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 17:31:52 Score another one for unit testing. Tedious, but if you can take the time to do it, makes identifying errors easier. 17:32:16 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:34:05 tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.169.114] has joined #lisp 17:34:31 tbatchelli- [~user@ppp-71-139-28-179.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:29 Is there a package which has a large number of source files (>100) and uses asdf? 17:36:31 kami: yes. 17:36:37 kami: Probably, but with that many files, it probably makes sense to create more than 1 package and define dependencies. 17:36:58 -!- tbatchelli- [~user@ppp-71-139-28-179.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:37:28 tbatchelli- [~user@ppp-71-139-28-179.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:35 you could ask Fare - he maintains one such pretty huge system 17:37:49 ThomasH: yes, I would like to see how such large systems are organised 17:37:57 ThomasH: not sure that's right. if you have a single system, you can (using poiu) compile/load components in parallel 17:38:14 (of course, that requires laser-like accuracy in dependency tracking) 17:39:03 IME, either they're maintained by a program (which is error-prone), or they're assembled as ad-hoc :serial t systems (: 17:39:29 akovalenko [~akovalenk@95.73.111.228] has joined #lisp 17:39:38 antifuchs: I thought I saw some comment in the ASDF code about the desire to import that functionality. 17:40:01 could be 17:40:30 I'm not sure it's the right way to go (adds a ton of complexity, requires extremely precise dependencies to work at all & be effective...) 17:40:48 but it does shave off around 20%-30% of build time, last I tried (: 17:42:12 antifuchs: I have been trying to only list the minimum files in the :depends-on form and that causes me confusion sometimes because I have to mentally calculate dependencies. For parallel compile/load, I think the dependencies definitions need to changed. 17:42:14 -!- kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:42:27 *be changed* 17:43:00 yeah, it's very hard work 17:43:19 it's easier to let a computer do it (and they sometimes don't manage to do it correctly, either) 17:43:29 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f71d8ba.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:43:44 antifuchs: Maybe restrict the parallel compile/load to the module level. That might be manageable. 17:43:53 haha, you wish 17:43:57 Or maybe even the system level. 17:44:00 :-) 17:44:22 the problem is finding truly independent modules / systems that can be loaded in parallel 17:44:31 the more coarse-grained you go, the less parallelism you get 17:44:45 and suddenly you have this pile of complexity with no real pay-off 17:45:12 antifuchs: Is there nothing to be applied from pmake? 17:45:12 wanderingelf [4817e03b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.59] has joined #lisp 17:46:10 CL is special in that it lets source code modify the compiler's behavior at compile time 17:46:25 or load time, actually 17:46:59 eval-when-time. 17:47:04 indeed 17:47:20 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:47:41 I've never had a good grasp of the compile/load/eval process. 17:47:53 in parallel make terms, you can consider every .fasl file along the chain a compile-and-link product of all fasl files that were loaded before it. 17:48:08 dys [~andreas@krlh-5f71d8ba.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:16 felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has joined #lisp 17:50:20 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-182-204.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:53:42 pnq [~nick@ACA399DA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:54:41 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:55:17 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A94C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:00 ddp [~ddp@anon-155-49.relakks.com] has joined #lisp 17:56:49 -!- ddp [~ddp@anon-155-49.relakks.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:58:49 Irfan_A [~irfan@180.246.183.235] has joined #lisp 17:59:56 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.164.107] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:27 -!- Irfan_A [~irfan@180.246.183.235] has left #lisp 18:00:30 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-200-49.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 18:01:05 ddp [~ddp@anon-155-49.relakks.com] has joined #lisp 18:02:01 -!- ddp [~ddp@anon-155-49.relakks.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:15 ddp [~ddp@anon-155-49.relakks.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:06 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:03:23 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:24 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-248-80.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 18:07:53 Note to self: remember to remove break points after solving a problem. 18:08:48 -!- ISF__ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:09:37 johnstorey [~johnstore@12.208.167.194] has joined #lisp 18:12:28 Farzad [~root@46.225.110.102] has joined #lisp 18:13:12 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:15:21 jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:57 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 18:16:26 I've seen quite a few examples of reader macros, but is there a good guide or tutorial on actually *how* to approach writing and developing one? 18:17:31 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:19:04 -!- Night-hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 18:20:45 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:23:17 -!- Farzad [~root@46.225.110.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:24:05 I imagine that would go something like, "don't do it, don't do it, don't do it. Here are a bunch of examples of how you'd do it." 18:26:20 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 18:26:34 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:27:06 when i use them, i'm most often implementing a dsl 18:27:39 well, I mean that the actual work of creating the macros seems straightforward, so I don't know what the guide would add. But it give you some actual advice. Anyway, I don't know of one. 18:28:17 so there's a LOAD-FOO call that does (let ((*readtable* *foo-readtable*)) (with-open-file (f ...) (loop ... (read ...)))) 18:29:38 if you're using them in regular lisp code, you probably want to use the name-readtables package, and make sure slime is set up right -- so that it uses the correct readtable when you C-c C-c in a file 18:29:40 named-readtables might also be useful 18:29:58 *oGMo* <- late 18:32:04 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:32:53 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 18:33:43 rtoyg_ [~rtoyg@216.239.45.130] has joined #lisp 18:34:07 gigamonkey: i have something raw 18:34:53 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 18:36:48 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:37:07 ThomasH: you might look at the raco build utility from drscheme/racket 18:37:17 it's pretty impressive. 18:39:44 ddp_ [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has joined #lisp 18:40:18 jmckitrick: "On Lisp" has a short read-macro chapter that I remember as being helpful. The text is available from Paul Graham's website. 18:40:41 Let Over Lambda is supposed to cover reader macros quite extensively 18:40:48 -!- ddp [~ddp@anon-155-49.relakks.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:40:51 -!- ddp_ is now known as ddp 18:41:10 jmckitrick, the last 'clon' at http://www.cliki.net/Clon seems to do smart things in package.lisp 18:43:59 I overrode #\" to allow ${foo} in string literals. Using it in sexp based configuration files which are LOADed. Turns out DEFPARAMETER is aptly named. 18:44:05 IIRC, LoL it will only show you how to do things that you might want to do with reader macros, and not when to use them, how to use them without having them apply to the whole world, etc. 18:46:23 Xach: what's that? 18:48:02 I don't think I ever wrote a setf expander. Modify macros come up every now and then, but never a setf expander. Has anyone had a good use case for one of those? 18:48:10 http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/UNOFFICIAL/descriptions.txt.gz 18:48:36 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5bdf00-15.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:48:51 Reviewing it suggests a style guide for :description would be helpful 18:49:59 I don't want to do anything extremely complex, but I'd like to find an application in some REST macros/functions I'm working on. 18:50:25 pjb: you have some particularly unhelpful system descriptions! 18:50:31 tcr: I considered it for gethash, to speed up macros like ensuref. 18:50:59 Xach: any updates yet on slime for QL? 18:51:29 jmckitrick: In what sense? Is there something pending that has temporarily slipped my mind? 18:51:46 slime's torn up for the holidays; they're ripping out coding-system 18:52:51 Xach: yes, see ddp's comment. 18:53:17 I didn't know how long it would last, and one of my systems is out of sync now. Might need to hunt down by tags. 18:53:21 I don't understand the question, then, sorry. 18:53:36 i reverted to 11/03 and it's fine 18:54:10 Xach: well, I guess the answer is 'no' nothing new. ;-) 18:55:47 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 18:56:15 ddp: it's been so long since I used cvs... is it tagged by date? 18:56:24 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:56:50 Noctifer [~Noctifer@89.204.130.103] has joined #lisp 18:58:54 what's the right looping construct to use when you want to hit every point (a,b) in A x B? 18:59:02 nested loops. 18:59:15 i have two do loops right now 18:59:19 it looks pretty ugly 18:59:36 tensorpudding: two LOOP loops? 18:59:43 no, DO 18:59:54 tensorpudding: that was a suggestion 18:59:56 :) 19:00:04 tensorpudding: loop loops tend to be less ugly. 19:00:09 really? 19:00:24 not hard to beat the ugliness of a do loop. 19:01:15 xach: it also seems that you really want a description of the release not the system. Though obviously there's no where to put that at the moment. 19:01:57 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:02:01 i don't really get LOOP 19:02:08 tensorpudding: Now's a good time to learn. 19:02:25 gigamonkey: I would say "in addition to" the system. 19:02:29 tensorpudding: http://l1sp.org/pcl/loop 19:02:32 my loops don't do any of the things that LOOP seems to do 19:02:32 tensorpudding: You're wanting the cartesian product? 19:02:37 Xach: yes. 19:02:39 es 19:02:40 yes* 19:02:52 tensorpudding: your loops don't loop vectors or arrays? 19:02:52 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 19:02:55 i'm readly PCL right now, and i'm much earlier 19:02:59 ehu, yes 19:03:06 well, it could 19:03:17 gigamonkey: manifest failed to build for me today. it's the first thing that has an expressed dependency on quicklisp and it's not easy to get it into my test environment! 19:03:24 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:03:39 quicklisp is, sadly, not a conventionally-loadable project. 19:03:40 but right now it just counts integers in an interval 19:03:44 How so? 19:03:51 tensorpudding: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126475 19:03:56 it depends on loading setup.lisp rather than (asdf:load-system "quicklisp") 19:04:13 I think I can fiddle with it to work. 19:04:13 No, I mean how did Manifest fail to build? 19:04:23 gigamonkey: because Quicklisp is not part of my test build environment. 19:04:23 can you loop over a multidimensional array? 19:04:31 Ah, I see. 19:04:39 tensorpudding: Yes, displaced arrays. 19:04:59 or just row-major-aref 19:04:59 you assign the loop variable to each row? 19:05:08 tensorpudding: Didn't realize you were using arrays. 19:05:12 well 19:05:17 i'm not using arrays 19:05:29 i'm using a dumb copy of a for loop 19:05:32 -!- YuleAthas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:04 (do ((x 10 (1+ x))) ((= 99 x) t) ... 19:06:07 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 19:06:23 ravster [~user@184.175.28.107] has joined #lisp 19:06:25 Hello all 19:06:55 tensorpudding: (loop for x from 10 below 99 do ...) 19:07:17 okay, that's what i was looking for 19:07:37 why is this stuff so complicated 19:07:54 i would think it'd be simpler if there were so many different ways of doing this 19:08:39 tensorpudding: common lisp is not a simple language. that is the price that you pay for its expressiveness. 19:08:55 tensorpudding: if you want a simple language, you may want to shop somewhere else. 19:09:25 tensorpudding: (not meaning to drive you away, mind you) 19:09:27 i was led into believe that lisp was elegant 19:09:34 err, common lisp 19:09:38 i've used other lisps before 19:09:38 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 19:09:45 That's a filthy lie. 19:09:53 which were elegant 19:09:53 tensorpudding: common lisp is not particularly elegant 19:09:58 CL is useful; scheme is elegant 19:10:10 In the words of....someone.... 19:10:16 Xach: would it be possible to specify in a defsystem whether a system was "public" or not? 19:10:18 tensorpudding: but you can write elegant programs in lisp. 19:11:02 i guess i wonder what make CL worth using 19:11:13 anyway, re. LOOP, just learn it. It will then be familiar and easy to use. 19:11:17 cl is aesthetic, scheme is sterile 19:11:48 H4ns: as well as bad fortran, right? :) 19:11:48 tensorpudding: You have to figure that out for yourself. 19:12:08 felideon: please go that way: github.com/franz 19:12:14 or was that franzinc? 19:12:37 cosman246_ [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:43 antifuchs: apologies :) 19:12:51 actually 19:12:59 i'm trying to rewrite something i wrote in fortran in lisp 19:13:10 -!- cosman246_ [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:13:11 and you're complaining? 19:13:29 H4ns: does that lead me to if* ? 19:13:31 tensorpudding: translating stuff from one language into another does not usually yield elegant results. 19:13:39 felideon: loads of them. 19:13:41 gigamonkey: You can put arbitrary properties into a system. I don't know if anyone is expressing public-ness that way, though. 19:13:45 hehe 19:14:08 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-157-28.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:22 cosman246_ [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:32 felideon: i had an issue with send-letter recently and asked for the source so that i could fix it myself. they told me. it was a shocking experience. i'm not going to do that again. 19:14:36 Can someone boot "Cosman246"? 19:14:46 Something happened to my wireless 19:14:53 cosman246_: ghost it 19:15:15 H4ns: they told you what? 19:15:26 I'll need to look that up 19:15:28 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:15:29 cosman - /msg nickserv help ghost 19:15:37 -!- cosman246_ is now known as Cosman246 19:16:45 Xach: if you can figure out how to build Manifest, pull the latest and take another look at the http://localhost:/quicklisp page. 19:16:58 rewriting with loop helped a lot, now it's pretty elegant 19:17:03 I need a vacation. I've been sitting here for the past 15 minutes waiting for a webinar to start only to realize it's tomorrow. 19:18:05 Xach: as you'll see on that page, there are many projects that would benefit from either tagging the main systems as the only one to document or some systems as not to be documented. 19:18:23 -!- wanderingelf [4817e03b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.59] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:18:32 gigamonkey: some projects have fairly disparate systems, too. it's hard for me to imagine which one is the "main" system. 19:18:52 could be worse, i'm figuring out why python27 is broken just to install emacs +x11; why emacs needs python27 to install is beyond me... 19:18:58 Well, if they have multiple systems that are intended to be public, that's fine as long as each one gets its own description. 19:19:16 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 19:19:33 snearch [~snearch@e178120103.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:20:47 Though from Manifest's point of view it would actually be nice if we could hide systems and instead map from releases to packages since packages are what Manifest documents. 19:20:54 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@2.54.254.4] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:21:25 ddp, maybe it's a recommends getting bumped up 19:21:53 If you use Quicklisp to install something you care about the release name. And then you need to know the package name to use it. Though I guess you also need to know the system name in order to write your own .asd file. Grrrr. 19:21:55 i just can't get over the irony of the whole thing 19:22:52 ddp, i just ran apt-rdepends on emacs23 in ubuntu, it doesn't require python27 19:23:24 it's not a direct dependency (and this is macports) 19:23:31 oh lol 19:23:31 oudeis [~oudeis@2.54.254.4] has joined #lisp 19:23:40 macports are so silly 19:23:55 indeed 19:24:00 ##macports or whatever it is might be able to offer appropriate support. 19:24:04 marsell [~marsell@120.18.134.151] has joined #lisp 19:24:15 -!- johnstorey [~johnstore@12.208.167.194] has quit [Quit: Nodding off now.] 19:24:56 s'okay; i'm past it, just grumbling... 19:25:06 mon_key` [~user@69.64.7.202] has joined #lisp 19:25:15 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:25:16 back to dissing on LOOP 19:25:28 ddp: thanks, that works. 19:25:36 H4ns: ahhahaha, it's true! (: 19:25:49 franzers can write fortran in any case mode (-; 19:26:16 antifuchs: sure it's open source, but you don't want to fix it yourself :) 19:26:29 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:26:40 those support contracts don't buy themselves, you know (-; 19:26:44 gigamonkey: I don't agree. 19:26:55 gigamonkey: If you use quicklisp to install something, you care about the system name. The release name is not very important. 19:27:12 tensorpudding: haha, I was just complaining about macports myself (: 19:27:23 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 19:27:24 Oh, you're right. I glitched out and thought for a moment that the name you pass to quickload is the release. 19:27:24 gigamonkey: I'm trying to grok what is the issue w/r/t systems/releases/packages if a system author release a system and that system has multiple packages you want a way to only document _some_ of those packages? 19:28:16 Okay, so now I think there's almost no reason to know about releases. And then they don't need a description. 19:28:34 gigamonkey: wellllllll...it *would* be kinda nice. 19:28:46 gigamonkey: seems like hooking into public-package with a list of package names to filter would be sufficient 19:30:01 e.g. (remove-if #'non-main-package-p (list-all-packages)) 19:30:51 Xach: now I'm confused. Is the name passed to quickload always a system name? 19:32:07 gigamonkey: Yes. 19:33:57 Okay. So I just pushed a new version of the quicklisp page that is system-centric. 19:35:35 -!- tbatchelli [~user@ppp-71-139-28-179.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:35:49 -!- tbatchelli- [~user@ppp-71-139-28-179.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:36:29 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:36:38 Xach: gigamonkey: Sounds like one of the pieces of metadata QL might benefit from tracking would be a list of the which packages in a given system (or a sub-system thereof) the authors consider public for documentation purposes. 19:36:42 -!- ayrnieu [~julian@50.15.104.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:37:06 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 19:37:28 lghtng [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/lghtng] has joined #lisp 19:37:39 It doesn't seem likely to me that there is much information available along those lines. 19:37:52 -!- jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 19:37:59 -!- katesmith_ is now known as katesmtih 19:38:00 *Xach* much prefers to scrape than to create 19:38:07 -!- katesmtih is now known as katesmith 19:38:10 mon_key`: Actually, I think that data probably belongs to Manifest. As in, once I get around to providing a way for package authors to specify docs other than via doc strings, they could do so. 19:39:04 Though one obvious heuristic is to not display any package that doesn't have a documentation string. 19:39:29 SBCL actually uses documentation strings to document that certain packages are not for public use. 19:39:37 Good for you, SBCL. You're one of the good ones. 19:39:52 Then if folks want to provide a docstring for a package they consider private they could use the to-be-determined Manifest-provided mechanism to tell Manifest so. 19:40:08 gigamonkey: Sure, but were it that Xach will harvest system related metadata it would be nice if authors weren't required to make that kinda information available twice. 19:41:38 Xach: how/where does SBCL do this? 19:42:53 ayrnieu [~julian@50.15.104.42] has joined #lisp 19:43:28 mon_key`: in the package docstring. 19:43:34 mon_key`: look at http://localhost:/package/sb-format 19:43:40 If you're running Manifest. 19:43:41 (documentation (find-package "SB-UNIX") t) 19:44:53 pferor` [~user@21.233.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:45:01 -!- benny [~benny@i577A892A.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:45:35 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA399DA.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:45:38 dagda [~dagda_@np34.co.returnpath.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:41 benny [~benny@i577A3690.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:46:44 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:06 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.206.234] has joined #lisp 19:52:59 johnstorey [~johnstore@12.208.167.194] has joined #lisp 19:53:55 brown [user@nat/google/x-ubebrdlkrjibaycr] has joined #lisp 19:54:11 -!- brown is now known as reb 19:55:15 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:57:09 -!- pferor` [~user@21.233.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:57:47 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 19:58:15 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:02:18 -!- Shapeshifter [~Shapeshif@saskatoon.icu.uzh.ch] has quit [Changing host] 20:02:18 Shapeshifter [~Shapeshif@unaffiliated/shapeshifter] has joined #lisp 20:03:46 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA102C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:02 Modius [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:36 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:11:10 tbatchelli- [~user@64.134.233.42] has joined #lisp 20:15:00 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:15:16 -!- rtoyg_ [~rtoyg@216.239.45.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:17:39 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.143.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:19:02 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 20:21:20 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:22:07 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:23:41 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-50-152.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:28:37 -!- Modius [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:31:56 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.77.163.109] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34:07 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@2.54.254.4] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:39:13 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.169.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:39:43 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA102C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:41:18 mstevens_ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:41:56 anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-55-16.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:42:02 rtoyg_ [~rtoyg@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 20:43:52 pnq [~nick@ACA25867.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:43:57 hypnocat [~hypnocat@unaffiliated/hypnocat] has joined #lisp 20:44:03 -!- hypnocat [~hypnocat@unaffiliated/hypnocat] has left #lisp 20:47:40 hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD72D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:05 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:54:30 hi, how do you guys usually run more than one sbcl in the same linux account, when using quicklisp? 20:58:56 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59:23 gigamonkey: is manifest::quicklisp-page working with your latest git commit? 21:02:47 puchacz: More than one in what sense? Like, in screen? 21:03:48 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:05:35 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.43] has joined #lisp 21:06:34 Xach: my best guess is that puchacz is concerned about FASLs stepping on each other's toes. But that's just a guess 21:06:45 -!- snearch [~snearch@e178120103.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:07:20 puchacz: the suspense is killing me! 21:08:22 such a torturous slow murder :< 21:08:26 those unruly FASLs 21:09:36 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:16 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:10:48 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 21:10:50 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 21:12:20 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:12:33 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:39 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.43] has joined #lisp 21:13:03 Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:54 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-199-162.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:54 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-199-162.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:13:54 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 21:14:32 -!- rtoyg_ [~rtoyg@24.130.4.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:15:14 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:17:08 -!- katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:18:02 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 21:18:36 I guess I will never know :( 21:19:15 -!- epsil [~vegard@ti0145a380-0200.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:19:39 rtoyg_ [~rtoyg@216.239.45.130] has joined #lisp 21:20:15 Reminds me of this -> http://xkcd.com/979/ 21:20:28 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:20:36 katesmith__ [~katesmith@75-138-199-162.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:20:52 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21:14 heh 21:22:02 -!- katesmith__ is now known as katesmith 21:22:18 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-199-162.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:22:18 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 21:22:58 -!- katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:23:41 Xach, mathrick_, anvandare, Guthur: sorry, got interrupted 21:23:51 I am worried about fasls stepping on each other 21:24:20 puchacz: Are you using two different versions of SBCL? 21:24:25 no 21:24:33 I don't think there's much to worry about. 21:24:37 Xach: it would be the same binary and core image 21:25:22 so, start 2 emacs, M-x slime in each of them, and it should just work? 21:25:30 2 emacsen 21:25:53 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:26:12 I think so. 21:26:33 okidoki, thx 21:29:24 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-5d82acc5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:29:30 -!- ASau [~user@95-27-186-234.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: reboot] 21:29:54 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:32:53 -!- Evil_Piccolo [~anma@ip-83-212-222-134.adsl.aueb.gr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:34:51 ASau [~user@95-27-186-234.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 21:36:16 Evil_Piccolo [~Namek@ip-83-212-222-134.adsl.aueb.gr] has joined #lisp 21:37:12 -!- vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtechnology.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:18 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 21:37:18 -!- osa1 [~sinan@141.196.100.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:24 SsvRrwQ` [~user@50.92.212.231] has joined #lisp 21:37:58 -!- SsvRrwQ [~user@50.92.212.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:39:04 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:39:09 -!- katesmith_ is now known as katesmith 21:40:08 X-Scale` [email@89.180.154.63] has joined #lisp 21:41:32 -!- X-Scale [email@89.180.152.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:41:45 -!- mon_key` [~user@69.64.7.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:41:57 vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtechnology.com] has joined #lisp 21:44:08 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:45:24 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:46:04 -!- _krappie_ [~brain@mx.skitzo.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:48:19 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:49:01 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-157-28.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: carthago delenda est] 21:53:35 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:54:40 -!- entrix_ [~entrix@95-28-72-1.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:56:52 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA102C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:57:17 tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.169.114] has joined #lisp 21:58:18 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA102C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:58:49 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:00:03 who would've thought that (defun foo (x) nil) can be optimized 22:00:07 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.206.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:01:13 adding (optimize speed (safety 0)) does 0.125 seconds -> 0.113 when calling it 10000000 times 22:01:25 -!- p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:04:25 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.107.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:04:51 Why not? Safety 0 probably gets rid of the check for the number of arguments. 22:05:17 Heh. And that's exactly what happens with cmucl. 22:05:19 (safety 0) doesn't do much, just adding SPEED reduces the speed 22:05:30 reduces time 22:05:52 -!- tbatchelli- [~user@64.134.233.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:06:31 Ok, that's a difference from cmucl. SPEED doesn't do anything; safety 0 removes the check. 22:06:40 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA102C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:55 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:06:56 sbcl is doing as rtoyg_ describes, on my system 22:07:05 saschakb` [~saschakb@p4FEA102C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:07:26 And on cmucl, just safety 0 alone will remove the check. 22:09:36 i see now that's it's neither, it's DEBUG 2 i have set by default 22:11:33 setting it to 1 reduces time, and speed 3 just overshadows debug 2 22:13:34 CONSTANTLY is slow too, but because it's closed over the value 22:13:36 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA25867.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:15:46 -!- waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has quit [Quit: waltwhite] 22:15:48 sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-187-170.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 22:16:01 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:16:46 and with debug set to 1, (safety 0) actually makes it slower 22:17:02 Hey Xach: Twitter thinks we're "similar" 22:17:23 -!- ravster [~user@184.175.28.107] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:17:26 (and it's not the first time i've seen (safety 0) making code actually slower 22:18:48 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-187-170.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:18:49 -!- mstevens_ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens_] 22:20:37 -!- saschakb` [~saschakb@p4FEA102C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:20:40 I think the interaction between the various qualities is really messy. 22:23:13 Farzad [~root@46.225.115.60] has joined #lisp 22:25:27 is there a time when you'd want safety 0 and debug > 0 though? 22:26:00 i always use debug 2, no matter what 22:27:04 (and i never use safety 0, unless i really know that i want it0 22:27:50 s/want/need/ 22:29:46 -!- jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:32:10 I also always use the default debug and safety 0 only when I really need it. 22:32:53 And optimize 3 only if it makes an appreciable difference or where it doesn't cause a huge number of compiler notes. 22:33:09 (Because I didn't fix the compiler notes.) 22:33:29 I can only think of one instance where I used optimization declarations. I only used them in specific functions. 22:33:37 xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has joined #lisp 22:33:50 i just use (optimize speed) #+sbcl (sb-ext:muffle-conditions sb-ext:compiler-note), and no notes! 22:34:09 DataLinkDroid [~David@1.146.72.42] has joined #lisp 22:34:40 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:34:44 If I bother to optimize, I at least read through the notes and apply them. It is possible to get rid of the vast majority. 22:35:32 -!- duomo [~duomo@cpe-67-248-14-24.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:35:34 stassats: I just close my eyes. :-) 22:36:29 some compiler hints aren't helpful and just adding declaration only will make the code messier (and possibly slower due to type-checking) 22:36:54 rtoyg_: well, i don't want to close my eyes on legitimate warnings and notes 22:37:16 i wish optimization notes in sbcl were opt-in, not opt-out 22:38:04 Isn't that called not using (speed)? 22:38:17 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@1.146.72.42] has quit [Client Quit] 22:38:35 no, i want speed 22:39:02 You want speed, but no notes unless you ask for them? 22:39:10 that's right 22:40:01 why would i need to see them each time i compile the code? they only obscure the real compiler output 22:40:13 Hmm. Is it faster with speed than without, even if you don't fix the notes? I've only done this with numerical code, and you really need to fix the notes 22:40:46 yes it is, you can't fix all the notes 22:40:47 That was my experience as well. 22:41:39 stassats: You can work through the majority of them and then you're usually only left with a couple, maybe a return value or something. 22:42:24 i know how to fix notes and i know that i can't fix them all 22:42:29 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:44:21 stassats: Yes, it is annoying once you've fixed all the notes to be reminded about the ones that can't be. Opt-in would be nice this case. I guess you're already inhibiting the extra notes. 22:45:07 Not suggesting otherwise, just commenting on my experience, use *you* in the general sense. Anyway, I'm now envisioning some cruel joke by the SBCL devs, "This note can never be addressed, it will drive them crazy like putting Spock in a round room and telling him to pee in the corner." 22:46:58 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:47:10 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 22:47:33 -!- jaimef [~jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 22:48:10 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 22:50:09 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 22:50:29 -!- bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:51:07 and sometimes speed 3 makes code slower 22:52:13 pnq [~nick@ACA2568B.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:52:50 i have a function where speed 3 is slower than speed 1 on SBCL, but it's faster under CCL 22:53:15 how can i make listedit in weblocks to show items side by side not one at a row? 22:53:46 Farzad: I doubt you'll receive any answer here 22:53:48 -!- SsvRrwQ` [~user@50.92.212.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:08 p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has joined #lisp 22:54:36 stassats: That's interesting. Is it a small piece of code I could test? 22:54:38 well just thought it's not so important to send to the list :/ 22:54:48 rtoyg_: yes 22:54:52 Farzad: few (if any) here use weblocks 22:55:15 stassats: Send it to me when you get a chance. I'm mostly just curious. 22:55:36 Xach, why? it seems to be powerful 22:55:47 rtoyg_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126481 22:56:05 and CCL is faster than SBCL in any configuration 22:56:51 stassats: Thanks. What do you use to test it? 22:56:53 Farzad: That's just how it is. 22:57:13 rtoyg_: (time (loop for i to 2000000 do (reverse-case "abCddfdgFgdgg"))) 22:57:16 Xach, do you prefer working with hunchentoot directly? or you just don't do websites? 22:57:28 Farzad: when I work with websites, I use some stuff I wrote myself. 22:58:46 Karl_H [~Karl_H@f048067144.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:58:56 -!- ThomasH [46822ea0@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 22:59:45 Xach, it takes a long time to write a good framework, but i'm sure what you write yourself is just what you want, thats what i was doing before i got to know weblocks and felt like thats what i'm trying to do myself... 22:59:45 stassats: Thanks. FWIW, I ran this with cmucl and ccl. cmucl takes .59 sec, ccl takes 1.5 sec. 23:00:33 tbatchelli- [~user@64.134.233.42] has joined #lisp 23:01:01 and replacing char with schar makes it even faster on CCL 23:01:35 and CMUCL is faster than either here 23:01:56 0.76 vs 0.4 vs 0.2 23:02:03 I'm actually surprised with that result! 23:02:15 A unicode issue? 23:02:22 test__ [~user@85.99.198.254] has joined #lisp 23:03:09 Farzad: it's just that weblocks community is localized mainly around their mailing list 23:03:18 though I seem to recall an irc channel 23:03:54 p_l, remember the name? 23:04:05 putting simple-base-string declaration reduces it to .272 on sbcl 23:04:33 (which is still slower by 0.070 than CMUCL) 23:05:05 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.93] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 23:05:33 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD72D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:05:35 sbcl doesn't inline char-[]case if it doesn't know that it's a base-char 23:05:58 Farzad: #weblocks ? 23:06:00 In cmucl, all characters are base-char's. 23:06:08 Farzad: nothing closer 23:06:44 -!- ddp [~ddp@216.243.111.165] has quit [Quit: ddp] 23:07:18 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-200-49.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07:50 chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:11 p_l, thats it thanks 23:08:18 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-138-219.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:08:30 Farzad: If I wanted to do more fancy stuff, I might look into weblocks, but until then. 23:08:31 inlining them doesn't help, the character database is slow itself 23:08:49 stassats: Did it make much difference with ccl? It reduced it by about .1 sec here. 23:09:03 i'm trying out hunchentoot but can't seem to get any handlers to work 23:09:13 I have this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126482 23:09:35 simple-base-string? none, it has simple-base-string for everything too 23:09:36 Guthur: you need to start an easy-acceptor 23:09:54 oh, is that new 23:09:57 Guthur: i'd suggest that you at least fly over the manual 23:10:00 Guthur: right. 23:10:10 ok, cheers H4ns 23:10:13 stassats: Cmucl has shortcuts for latin-1. I assume the case tables are fairly slow in cmucl. 23:10:45 shortcuts for latin-1 in sbcl are only for simple-base-string 23:10:52 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:10:58 -!- Karl_H [~Karl_H@f048067144.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:10:59 and on compile-time only 23:11:08 this is the first time I've used disassemble in ccl, it's pretty neat: it breaks up the assembly by source output and prints it as sexps 23:11:09 H4ns: I think it might be a good time to retire the tbnl nickname, since the API has diverged. 23:11:43 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #lisp 23:12:03 Xach: that is a fair suggestion, although it will probably annoy users to no end. 23:12:11 *H4ns* goes making that change right now 23:12:12 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:12:16 and "if (upper-case-p char) (char-downcase char) (char-upcase char)" is a rather bad combination, it recalculates some values twice, once for upper-case-p and the second time for casers 23:12:56 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 23:13:07 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.156.134] has joined #lisp 23:13:47 cmucl is much worse if the string is not latin1. I used greek letters instead, and time is now 4.6 sec vs 1.4 for ccl. 23:13:57 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 23:15:38 epsil [~vegard@ti0145a380-0200.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 23:15:50 i devised a better test, (defun invert-char (char) (if (upper-case-p char) (char-downcase char) (char-upcase char))) 23:15:55 and (time (loop for i from 0 to 20000000 do (invert-char #\))) 23:16:07 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:47 H4ns: hmm, I wonder if there are a lot of people who use the nickname just because it's short? 23:16:56 H4ns: I had actual TBNL applications :) 23:17:11 Xach: many use it because it is short. 23:17:40 tbsl: to be shortened later 23:18:03 HT would be fairly short 23:18:19 yeah, but i remember that ht was used by some other package. 23:18:47 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:18:47 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 23:18:47 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 23:18:50 hunch would be only 1 character longer 23:19:04 i have pondered to come up with a compatibility package that would optionally be loaded so that i can have real hunchentoot be split into hunchentoot and hunchentoot-easy-handlers. 23:19:07 ccl just has an array, *upper-to-lower* 23:19:07 and we would then have both hunch and toot. 23:19:25 hunch looks ugly. peter wins. 23:19:36 and case conversion is just O(1) 23:19:41 Xach: I used it because it was shorter 23:19:49 Ok, I withdraw the suggestion. 23:19:59 *Xach* is obviously in a tiny tbnl-using minority 23:20:05 hunchentoot just eats way to many of my 80 char line width 23:20:06 how about sko 23:20:14 Guthur: :p 23:20:23 just import it! 23:21:20 I've stopped importing for some reason 23:22:36 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:22:57 ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 23:23:25 actually now that I think about it, Edi has made a drakma and a hunchentoot; has he made a durk? 23:23:39 jasom: not to my knowledge 23:24:25 jasom: the urban dictionary does not explain to me why he would. 23:24:37 "durk: A fool who likes to play world of warcraft, shampoo his back hair, and dump girls on their birthday." 23:24:46 why does cliki2 need a login? 23:25:15 H4ns: i have no idea what durk is, but the urban dictionary entry didn't teach me much 23:25:18 H4ns: Hunchentoot and Drakma are 2 named characters from a Frank Zappa opera 23:25:24 durk is the 3rd IIRC 23:25:26 jasom: that i know. 23:26:07 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.156.134] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:26:43 rtoyg_: how much space is saved by having a clever character database in CMUCL? 23:26:48 jasom: that was new to me 23:27:17 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 23:28:45 stassats: That makes it really fast for ccl. I think the uppercase table takes about 3K. In this day and age, a giant array is not much. 23:29:38 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:31:27 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #lisp 23:32:51 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:33:09 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 23:33:17 -!- meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:34:22 nialo`` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:23 nialo- [nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:25 things like alpha-char-p is slow too 23:34:46 i guess trading space for time would be reasonable 23:35:06 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:35:14 and the code should be much simpler 23:35:26 the only problem is that you can end up trading space for nothing if you mess up the cache 23:35:40 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:35:56 jasom: that's premature optimization 23:36:18 stassats: not making a table is premature optimization? 23:36:25 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #lisp 23:36:40 jasom: a table is simpler to generate and code. 23:36:45 -!- nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:36:59 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.156.134] has joined #lisp 23:37:02 then that's an argument that doesn't involve speed, and therefore isn't about optimization 23:37:07 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:37:09 stassats: I agree that trading space for time is reasonable. It is kind of nice that cmucl stores the data in disk in a compressed format (that is larger(!) than Unicode.txt), but it doesn't have to be that way on disk. 23:37:13 Er, memory. 23:37:54 and alpha-char-p needs just a bit-array 23:38:43 jasom: erh, what? The argument against the simple solution (messes up cache) is an optimization concern. 23:39:59 that's why stassats dismissed the concern as premature optimization; plus, with a sane layout, most programs will exhibit very nice spatial locality on that table. 23:42:04 _krappie_ [~brain@mx.skitzo.org] has joined #lisp 23:44:16 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.156.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:46:07 and lower-to-upper and upper-to-lower table isn't much larger than the current character database 23:47:16 Is it current database packed? 23:47:28 s/it/the/ 23:50:06 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 23:50:29 char-name uses huffman coding 23:50:31 and it's dog slow 23:50:38 pkhuong: How's Xecto? 23:51:38 stassats: What about the other parts? cmucl uses a trie to store the names. 23:51:40 (time (loop for i from 0 to 200000 do (function-which-calls-char-name #\))), 4.2 seconds on sbcl, 0.006 seconds on ccl 23:52:53 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:56:19 That's really fast. cmucl takes .5 sec. 23:57:36 -!- johnstorey [~johnstore@12.208.167.194] has quit [Quit: Nodding off now.] 23:59:42 ccl just uses a hash-table