00:00:32 -!- changed is now known as tempire 00:01:33 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:01:48 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:51 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:36 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:17 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-95-157.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:50 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-95-157.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:10:36 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-95-157.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:46 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.82] has joined #lisp 00:11:08 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-95-157.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:11:11 ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 00:11:59 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:12:35 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:13:42 -!- tempire is now known as changed 00:13:44 -!- changed is now known as tempire 00:13:58 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:14:16 -!- tempire is now known as changed 00:14:35 -!- changed is now known as tempire 00:15:42 gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has joined #lisp 00:16:24 (defmacro  ((&rest params) &body body) `(lambda ,params ,@body)) 00:16:32 this actually worked :P 00:19:07 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA25BBA.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:19:41 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.116] has joined #lisp 00:31:17 Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:46 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:34:00 you can use even greek letters for macro definition ? 0_0 00:34:44 if your CL implementation support greek letters at all, then yes. 00:34:59 *supports 00:35:04 wow 00:35:15 you mean unicode support ? 00:36:55 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-171-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:37:14 worked in sbcl and ccl. (funcall ( () 10)) => 10 00:37:45 oh nice i use clozure too 00:38:05 for most implementations today, greek support comes with unicode support (unibyte iso-8859-7 may be available separately somewhere, though). There's nothing about unicode in CL spec. 00:40:09 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.187.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:41:25 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:44:00 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 00:45:14 Can't google anything, but will ask here just in case: any CL radius/802.11x library? 00:45:19 i see 00:47:33 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.116] has joined #lisp 00:49:06 -!- beelike [~beelike@76.73.16.26] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:49:14 beelike [~beelike-@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 00:52:18 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 00:52:21 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:52:38 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 00:52:49 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has joined #lisp 00:55:23 -!- vrook [~girondist@c-24-91-141-42.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56:07 -!- chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:57:18 chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:40 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@64.134.241.97] has joined #lisp 00:59:56 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:03:47 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.159.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:06:31 -!- Brendan_T [~Brendan_T@2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fecf:b0fd] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:07:10 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.116] has joined #lisp 01:07:18 chp [~user@c-68-45-180-238.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:33 Brendan_T [~Brendan_T@2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fecf:b0fd] has joined #lisp 01:15:11 antoszka: i haven't seen it 01:15:24 Xach: Thanks, was afraid so. 01:15:42 mon_key: (sorry I was rocking a baby for the past three hours) Anyway, that code from your paste only works if the system has been loaded, right? 01:17:32 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-148-165-103.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:19:36 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4EA3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:19:58 The chinese pictogram for "missing library" is "crisis" + "opportunity" 01:20:17 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:48 lol 01:20:59 -!- kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-179-100.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:23:43 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h59n2c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: add^_] 01:24:51 -!- beelike [~beelike-@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC] 01:25:38 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:26:23 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:08 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:29:24 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:29:27 Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-50-135-152-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:20 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.116] has joined #lisp 01:30:22 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.12.61] has joined #lisp 01:32:11 -!- ignas_ [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:35:46 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:38:29 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:44:05 gigamonkey: AFAIK it can only work if the system is loaded. 01:44:42 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-42-4.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 01:44:42 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-42-4.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 01:44:42 insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 01:44:42 I would think that is what is wanted for manifest 01:45:27 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:45:28 -!- tali713` is now known as tali713 01:47:53 -!- hypnocat [~hypnocat@unaffiliated/hypnocat] has left #lisp 01:48:55 Xach: that went into my fortune file :D 01:49:15 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD72D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:52:43 -!- Mustansir [~Mustansir@cpe-76-169-66-40.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Mustansir] 01:53:09 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:55:29 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:57:48 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.92.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:57:53 gigamonkey: Also, the idea with the paste linked above was to allow searching the systems whilst avoiding use of asdf:find-system which AFAIK will load an an otherwise as yet unloaded system. 01:58:08 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.64.136] has joined #lisp 01:58:29 -!- puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:59:12 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has 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has joined #lisp 03:28:22 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA02B3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:30:20 MrBusiness [~MrBusines@75-163-225-197.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:20 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0F83.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:32:29 pnq [~nick@AC81360F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 03:33:39 -!- MrBusiness [~MrBusines@75-163-225-197.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:38:56 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:46:07 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-94-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 03:46:07 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-94-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 03:46:07 insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 03:49:04 dys`` [~andreas@krlh-d9be7a4b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:26 -!- dys` [~andreas@krlh-5f71cdd9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:52:10 -!- nepnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:52:25 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:52:33 nepnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:56:00 teggi [~teggi@123.21.164.107] has joined #lisp 03:58:13 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.116] has joined #lisp 03:58:24 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@64.134.241.97] has quit [Quit: RomyEatsDrupal] 04:01:26 wildnux_ [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:03:07 -!- nepnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:06:45 Xach: don't "crisis" and "opportunity" translate to the same Chinese ideogram? 04:07:22  04:08:29 Well, no, that's yet another lie we've been told. They don't. Crisis, opportunity. =  04:09:25 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:11:14 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.116] has joined #lisp 04:12:50 -!- wildnux_ is now known as wildnux 04:12:50 -!- wildnux is now known as nepnux 04:12:50 -!- nepnux is now known as wildnux 04:12:53 chinese ideograms form a very interesting writing system 04:14:31 p_l: Rhyme, reason, and pun. 04:14:54 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 04:17:03 Is there a standard or idiomatic way to copy a CLOS instance? Perhaps a library? 04:17:21 jacius: Copy is not well defined. 04:17:27 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:17:37 jacius: It's essentially the same problem with comparison, in a dynamic world. 04:17:59 jacius: No. There might be some solutions, but there's no standard one 04:18:28 jacius: Think about what copying means with respect to the effect of future mutations in the system. 04:19:56 Okay. Would it make sense for me to define a generic function, and have my classes each define a method that knows how to properly copy instances of that class? 04:20:06 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 04:21:14 jacius: No, because copy is not a well defined concept. 04:21:30 p_l: read http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html 04:21:31 I suggest that you make a particular kind of copy for that particular kind of copying that you want. 04:21:35 s/p_l/jacius/ 04:21:37 sorry 04:22:19 Think about the actual problem that you're trying to solve. 04:25:03 cmoore_ [~hydo@174-24-168-138.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:18 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:25:36 p_l: they are not ideograms 04:25:44 They are morphosyllabographs 04:26:09 Also: crisis is not "danger" and "opportunity"--that was an urban legend propagated by JFK 04:29:50 Logograms. 04:30:23 Morphosyllabograms 04:30:36 Logograms *would* be good enough 04:30:48 but most people take them to be the same as "ideograms" 04:30:50 -!- cmoore_ [~hydo@174-24-168-138.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: cmoore_] 04:32:07 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:32:11 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.9] has joined #lisp 04:32:34 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:32:54 pjb: Thanks for the link. I understand why a copy function wouldn't be good for cons/lists because they can represent trees, alists, etc. But for my own classes with a well-defined purpose, what's the problem? 04:33:24 jacius: Because you're confusing form with function. 04:33:29 The problem is that foro my own class with a well-defined purpose, the copying algorith is totally different. 04:33:57 jacius: There are different approaches that you can take with your own classes that require different copying semantics. 04:34:11 (defclass example () ((slot :type string :initform "" :initarg :slot ;accessor example-slot))) 04:34:30 jacius: shall we copy the slot, or shall we just keep a reference to the same string? 04:34:42 jacius: So, you should start by considering which particular copying semantics you want now, and picking a sensible name for it. 04:35:07 jacius: what other invariants should the example-slot respect? Should it be unique amongst all instances of example? 04:35:07 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:35:20 All these questions may have different answers for your class than for mine. 04:35:42 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:37:08 Isn't that solved by generic functions? Perhaps deep-copy and shallow-copy, on which the class defines methods to perform the operations appropriate for that class' semantics 04:38:05 jacius: (defgeneric copy (object) (:documentation "Returns a copy of the object")) 04:38:09 there. Happy? 04:38:29 I know how to define a generic method, you don't need to get snarky 04:38:51 Now you can just implement the method for your class. 04:40:43 I know, that's what I was proposing to do, and I asked if that was a sensible approach. Perhaps there are pitfalls I don't see, that someone more experienced could point out. 04:41:26 Sure. The point we're making is that we cannot have a sensible default implementation for the copy generic function. You must implement your own methods. 04:41:31 jacius: what Zhivago is doing a bad job of conveying is that there is much more depth to the issue of "copy" than deep vs. shallow 04:42:01 most trivially, in some circumstances you might want a deep copy of only certain slots. 04:42:59 jacius: it's probably better to have a copy-by (protocol object) generic, and (defun copy (object &optional (protocol *default-protocol*)) (copy-by protocol object)). That way, you can do different things for the same class (e.g. cons) depending on context (is it an alist or a tree?). That, or pascal costanza's context-oriented programming libraries. 04:43:13 Yes, I understand that there would be problems with, say, a function that just blindly copies each slot. But if each class defines methods to implement certain copying strategies for that class, that makes some sense, yes? 04:43:36 Yes. Each class must have its own method. 04:44:03 Perhaps shallow-copy and deep-copy to start, or superdupernifty-copy as I need it 04:44:10 jacius: yes, and you could even use mixins to help with that. 04:46:23 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 04:46:31 pkhuong: Thanks. Could you give an example of what a protocol might be? Is it e.g. a symbol telling what kind of copying to do, or perhaps a function (like providing a function to mapcar)? 04:46:50 saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA056C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 04:46:52 hmm x is the same as X in lisp? 04:47:23 jaimef: not necessarily. 04:47:35 jacius: anything. symbols if you like EQL dispatch, function if the protocol is dead simple and only needs to be called, a class with data to parameterize the copying, ... 04:47:44 (setq x 100) ;; (X) returns 100 04:47:45 jaimef: by default the lisp readers upcases letter before interning symbols. So, by default "x" and "X" read to the same symbool. 04:47:53 ok 04:48:00 (x) doesn't necessarily return x. 04:48:14 pkhuong: Okay, thanks :) 04:48:17 (defun x () 42) (defparameter x 1) (x) --> 42 ; not 1. 04:48:44 And thanks pjb and Zhivago and Ralith 04:48:48 jacius: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/a692eca39127c5a0/e3a84417a0d0bd11#e3a84417a0d0bd11 04:48:59 naggum on deep-copy 04:49:34 per Xach's fine work here: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3164291289641126@naggum.no.html 04:49:48 jacius: a really useful context would have an EQ hash table to preserve sharing 04:50:26 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0F83.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:51:26 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:52:16 -!- lghtng [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/lghtng] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:53:00 I guess there's some confusion from the term "generic function". Sometimes people use it to mean a function (implementation) that will work on anything, other times they mean the things you define with defgeneric (which is what I meant). 04:56:34 DataLinkDkt [~DataLink@CPE-121-212-131-12.lns10.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:57:42 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 04:59:14 cmoore_ [~hydo@c-71-227-138-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:20 jacius: defgeneric is the right thing to use for dispatching on classes, so feel free to define your own deep-copy this way. It's more about a "deep-copy" being a bad name, as it suggests that it should work on /anything/. 05:01:47 akovalenko: Fair enough :) 05:02:11 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has joined #lisp 05:02:26 jacius: deep-copy- may be better 05:02:47 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 05:02:50 mm. (defun copy (object &optional (*default-protocol* *default-protocol*)) ... ) is probably nicer. 05:04:03 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:05:23 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:27 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:10:41 madrik [~user@122.168.62.153] has joined #lisp 05:15:50 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:18:54 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 05:20:48 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.9] has joined #lisp 05:21:46 janissary [~user@adsl-98-85-5-173.mco.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:00 Hmmm 05:22:16 I wonder if CLFSWM is overlapping 05:22:32 and if it will integrate nicely with GNOME 05:23:40 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81360F.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:24:08 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-171-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:25:35 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:26:47 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:26:56 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 05:29:06 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:30:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:31:13 -!- dys`` is now known as dys 05:32:26 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:41:05 Mustansir [~Mustansir@cpe-76-169-66-40.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:41:35 -!- Mustansir [~Mustansir@cpe-76-169-66-40.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:44:46 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 05:46:45 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:51:59 -!- madrik [~user@122.168.62.153] has left #lisp 05:56:22 -!- cmoore_ [~hydo@c-71-227-138-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: cmoore_] 05:59:02 -!- DataLinkDkt is now known as DataLinkAway 06:02:53 -!- DataLinkAway is now known as DataLinkDkt 06:02:56 -!- DataLinkDkt is now known as DataLinkAway 06:04:27 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5DE8DB41.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:05:31 -!- antgreen [~user@70.50.67.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:06:27 -!- chp [~user@c-68-45-180-238.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:11:49 el-maxo [~max@p57A5614A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:25 -!- DataLinkAway is now known as DataLinkDkt 06:13:06 -!- DataLinkDkt [~DataLink@CPE-121-212-131-12.lns10.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving now] 06:13:11 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 06:14:45 good afternoon 06:14:54 *eMBee* installed emacs today 06:14:57 Yay 06:15:19 now lets give this slime thing a try 06:15:29 \o/ 06:15:33 eMBee: don't forget paredit! 06:15:36 to see if it behaves any better than slimv 06:16:03 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Quit: zzz] 06:17:11 i tried paredit in vim for a few minutes and turned it off as soon as i could find out how. so i don't think i'd be happy with that. i don't like the computer to tell me where i can put parens and where not 06:19:17 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:19:45 read the docs and you'll find that emacs' paredit will let you do anything you could do by manual paren frobbing, except faster 06:19:51 and with fewer errors 06:21:09 i'll take a look, though i think manually editing parens forces me to study the code more closely which should help in getting used to reading lisp code in the log run 06:21:25 long run 06:23:04 structural manipulation will help there even more. 06:25:40 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:25:56 at the moment though my real problem is that i am using screen and some ctrl-key combinations are getting in the way 06:31:10 The default screen key has always seemed a rather idiotic choice to me 06:31:50 -!- drdo [~user@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:32:01 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 06:32:05 it is not the default, i can change that, but which control-key combination does not conflict with emacs? 06:33:24 I use C-q with tmux, it's right next to the control key and is used less often than any of the nearby keys 06:33:53 that assumes a control key between tab and shift, though 06:35:10 incidently i have that, but using ctrl-q interferes with flow control in the terminal. 06:36:54 I almost never use serial consoles nowadays, I've never been bothered by that 06:37:44 do you happen to know how to send a literal control key in tmux? (ie send your ctrl-q to emacs? 06:44:16 ah, it is ctrl-q a, i thought i tried that... 06:44:42 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.102] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 06:45:31 given that emacs commands are complex enough maybe i can get by with that 06:48:57 hmm, inside emacs *load-pathname* is nil 06:51:20 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-68-173-18-241.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:53:36 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.187.36] has joined #lisp 06:54:28 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:55:05 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:55:52 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-82.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 06:56:42 H4ns [~user@64.206.187.68] has joined #lisp 07:01:39 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:01:41 _nix00 [~Adium@180.158.241.226] has joined #lisp 07:08:27 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-408301.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:08:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-78.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:08:57 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@rrcs-50-74-33-180.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:09:35 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:09:41 ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 07:12:00 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 07:14:15 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 07:14:57 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 07:17:26 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.9] has joined #lisp 07:17:34 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-408301.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Quit: everything is moving] 07:18:17 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:49 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-408301.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:21:38 eMBee: inside emacs, there is no *load-pathname* at all. There is load-file-name, though. 07:22:26 well, yes, but the code uses *load-pathname*, and that somehow should continue to work 07:23:01 elisp code shouldn't continue to work in CL, and CL code shouldn't continue to work in emacs. 07:23:24 i am talking about cl code loaded via slime 07:23:34 thekilon [~kilon@athedsl-408301.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:24:18 eMBee: loaded with C-c C-l, or C-c C-k, or..? 07:24:42 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-86.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:25:25 morning people 07:25:38 emacs is amazing, its really huge 07:25:47 -!- thekilon is now known as kilon_ 07:25:53 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@rrcs-50-74-33-180.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:26:04 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-82.dyn.columbia.edu] has left #lisp 07:26:16 loaded into emacs via C-x C-f, and then evaluated. i can see why that would not set *load-pathname*... 07:26:19 anyone knows how i can kill the current buffer ? 07:26:42 kilon_: C-x k - but C-h a kill and #emacs 07:27:42 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-408301.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:28:20 msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has joined #lisp 07:29:33 i knew about C-k x but i thought it did not work without a name 07:29:35 my bad 07:29:44 kilon_: #emacs 07:30:16 H4ns: i am there already ;) 07:30:28 and of course done the tutorial and I am reading the manual 07:30:33 oh boy what power !!! 07:30:52 kilon_: #emacs also is the right place to drool about how great emacs is. maybe. 07:31:07 already did :D 07:32:21 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:36:39 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:38:37 ok, so C-c C-l works, but how do i load and edit? 07:38:56 loading first then opening for edit seems to work 07:39:19 I have a question: how do I load libraries in a file? 07:43:17 -!- janissary [~user@adsl-98-85-5-173.mco.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:43:23 What should I put at the top of my files in order to use a library in them? 07:43:53 You should probably make an ASDF system? 07:44:04 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 07:44:17 hmmmm 07:44:26 Cosman246: in common lisp, you rarely have programs that consist of single files 07:44:41 Cosman246: (contrasted to, say, ruby or python programs) 07:45:01 So what should I do? 07:45:09 Cosman246: the common work flow is to start emacs and lisp, then load the stuff you need from the repl. 07:45:24 With (REQUIRE....)? 07:45:28 Cosman246: once you're satisfied with what you have, you write an asdf system that loads the stuff you need 07:45:39 OK, thanks 07:45:41 Cosman246: no, (ql:quickload ) 07:45:45 usually there are at least three files, btw - ASDF system definition (*.asd), package definitions (package.lisp) and actual code (rest) 07:45:47 Ah 07:46:06 Cosman246: for ql:quickload, you need quicklisp installed, of course 07:46:15 I have quicklisp 07:46:21 Cosman246: you can put some (ql:quickload ) forms into a file and LOAD that, of course. 07:46:47 but that's not recommended :) 07:47:05 That seems easier than making an asdf system, but I'll look up moar about asdf anyway 07:48:04 Cosman246: You can always use slime-scratch buffer to experiment, then create code when you your idea solidifies 07:48:20 Thanks 07:48:22 Cosman246: the "quickproject" library can help you setting up a skeleton of a project. 07:49:39 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@ool-ade56346.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:58 JS94588 [~jamie.sti@c-76-21-21-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:58 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@ool-ade56346.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:50:04 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 07:50:47 Wow, thanks 07:51:03 -!- JS94588 [~jamie.sti@c-76-21-21-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:51:46 Cosman246: when you need to get a pristine REPL again, you can type (in repl) ,restart 07:51:54 (in slime repl, that is) 07:54:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:10:44 H4ns: python apps are single files ? I dont think thats is true unless you are referring to tiny application. It make code really hard to read and navigate if put in a single file. 08:11:11 -!- kilon_ is now known as kilon 08:11:41 kilon: it is very common to write python programs that consist of single files and can be started using "python file.py" 08:13:39 well I am mainly a blender addon developer , there are one file scripts but are considered a non recommended approach for the community and besides creating python packages is very esasy 08:14:40 kilon: i'm not here to discuss python. my point was: in common lisp, it is not common to have self-contained, one-file applications. 08:17:23 I only asked because I thought you were referring something else I was not aware of 08:19:36 probably you meant that in lisp is quite rare 08:19:51 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:22:52 i don't think single file python scripts are that common either, but in python you simply do import foo to add other files. they automatically become modules that way. in lisp that works too, with load, but it doesn't become a package unless a package is created first 08:24:42 eMBee: in cl, packages and files are totally unrelated, but that was not my point either. 08:25:31 entrix [~entrix@95-28-232-34.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:25:35 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:26:16 oudeis [~oudeis@host109-145-12-179.range109-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:28:07 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@90.154.195.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:29:06 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:30:31 Xach: when updating or installling libraries i occasionally get connection errors that quicklisp doesn't seem to be able to recover from 08:31:26 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:28 eMBee: 3:30 am here. 08:32:49 xach: if it fails to install, then i can try again until it works, but when it fails during ql:update-all-dists, then a retry fails with it's already uptodate 08:33:22 i know, i am writing it now because it is fresh in my mind, hoping that xach will read it later. 08:34:24 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:48 nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-240-100.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:37:37 eMBee: why do you take a chance? you could open up a github issue. 08:38:31 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:38:45 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:40:55 it's a small chance, if he doesn't read it i can pick it out from the history later if i need to. i just need to offload this so i can get back to work 08:43:33 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.138.247] has joined #lisp 08:47:07 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:49:19 waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has joined #lisp 08:50:21 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-68-173-18-241.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 08:50:49 chenbing [~user@115.206.199.119] has joined #lisp 08:51:22 sylecn [~sylecn@98.143.159.179] has joined #lisp 08:51:31 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:51:37 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:27 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:53:27 for creating tests, i've come up with a deftestpackage macro - http://paste.lisp.org/display/126415 - thoughts? better ways? 08:54:21 insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 09:02:32 You test packages. I test functions... 09:02:35 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:02:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.86] has joined #lisp 09:02:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.86] has quit [Changing host] 09:02:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:02:52 pjb: i don't test packages, i test functions in packages. 09:02:59 Sometimes you need to test internal functions. 09:03:37 pjb: right. what i don't like is importing the test library into the package that i'm working on. i also don't want to export symbols just for the sake of testing. 09:03:38 There are a number of test libraries. 09:03:54 pjb: i know. this is meant to interface to a test library, not implement one. 09:04:04 I also write my own test "framework". 09:04:33 pjb: do you understand the problem that the macro tries to solve? 09:04:53 It does so beautifully. 09:06:10 pjb: ok. that's kind of what i hoped :) 09:10:24 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.9] has joined #lisp 09:10:41 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-158-25.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 09:15:04 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw268248.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:21:24 YuleAthas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 09:32:47 vozhyk_ [~vozhyk@178.125.147.76] has joined #lisp 09:35:04 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-408301.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:36:38 drdo [~user@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 09:36:39 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-408301.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:38:26 -!- vozhyk_ [~vozhyk@178.125.147.76] has quit [Quit: ] 09:43:26 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-196-242.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:45:07 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:45:43 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-135-88.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:47:13 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:49:22 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.12.61] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:51:24 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:53:22 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.111.6] has joined #lisp 09:53:40 -!- entrix [~entrix@95-28-232-34.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:59:15 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:05:32 -!- chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:09:00 entrix [~entrix@95-25-239-2.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:09:31 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:11:33 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:13:06 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:13:06 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@180.158.241.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:13:10 _nix001 [~Adium@180.158.241.226] has joined #lisp 10:19:56 _nix00 [~Adium@180.158.241.226] has joined #lisp 10:19:57 -!- _nix001 [~Adium@180.158.241.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:20:27 beelike [~beelike@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 10:20:30 hello 10:20:47 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@180.158.241.226] has quit [Client Quit] 10:20:53 (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0) ...etc) <- if I put that in a defun, will only that function be compiled using those settings? 10:21:03 yes 10:21:11 nice thanks 10:21:29 beelike: mind, you should be careful to only use those settings when profiling has demonstrated that they're necessary. 10:21:46 yes that's what I'm doing 10:22:27 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:23:23 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:23:37 safety 0 is very very rarely necessary 10:24:10 I thought if Im using this, I might as well go all the way 10:24:20 I assume that disables bounds checking etc? 10:24:37 on sbcl it disables /all/ type checking 10:25:00 I see. can that lead to segfault then? 10:25:17 beelike: not segfault, but other errors, yes 10:25:37 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 10:25:43 what kind? memory corruption, buffer overflows? 10:25:50 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:25:53 corruption at least 10:25:55 (defun foo (x n) (declare (optimize (safety 0))) (setf (car x) n) x) 10:25:58 (foo "foobar" 12) 10:27:02 segfaults, memory corruption, buffer overflows, GC invariants lost long after the original error when GC runs across a bogus object 10:27:43 safety 0 is bad news 10:28:00 daniel__ [~daniel@p50829E6B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:51 yes I see why one would want to avoid that unless absolutely necessary. is (safety 1) prefered then for most cases? I'm using SBCL 10:29:00 -!- entrix [~entrix@95-25-239-2.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:30:16 safety 1 is a good default. in sbcl it allows some type weaking, eg. (or (integer 1 10) (integer 100 1000)) will be weakened into (integer 1 1000) 10:30:34 safety 2 never weakens types at all 10:30:46 -!- daniel [~daniel@p50829E7E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:30:54 safety 3 enables the extra safety checks required by CLHS for some things 10:32:35 if you just need the compiler to trust that eg. addition of two fixnums really is a fixnum, use modular arithmetic instead: (logand most-positive-fixnum (+ a b)) ; if A and B are known to be fixnums, sbcl will compile that quite nicely 10:32:58 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.99] has joined #lisp 10:35:07 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-193-56.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:36:15 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-193-56.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:36:20 meaning I have to declare them as fixnums at the top of the function too? 10:37:57 first time I have to optimize in CL code, so I'm kind of clueless about all this 10:39:03 -!- YuleAthas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:39:20 Malkith [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has joined #lisp 10:39:33 is there any reason why I should be doing (mapcar #'length string-list) over (mapcar 'length string-list) 10:39:42 beelike: you can declare the type of variables and arguments at the beginning of their scope. so, in case of arguments, yea, that's at the start of the function. 10:40:04 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:40:08 beelike: with LET variables, you can do that right after the LET variable block, the beginning of the body. 10:41:25 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 10:43:16 beelike: you probably want to do that, yes. also (speed 3), then look at the compiler notes sbcl gives you 10:43:38 -!- devhost [~devhost@174.143.148.179] has quit [Quit: bye] 10:44:05 devhost [~devhost@174.143.148.179] has joined #lisp 10:46:31 -!- gaidal [gaidal@61.144.104.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:46:41 gaidal [gaidal@61.144.104.245] has joined #lisp 10:46:57 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:48:04 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:49:14 nikodemus, when is the last time you programmed drunk in lisp 10:49:41 JFYI, (declare (optimize (speed 3))) is equivalent to (declare (optimize speed)) 10:50:04 you too stassats 10:50:07 :D 10:50:09 and naked 10:50:12 :D 10:50:52 Quadresce_ [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 10:51:25 chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:06 Quadresce: i prefer debauchery to writing lisp while drunk 10:52:17 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-408301.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:52:21 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:53:39 is there any reason why I should be using #'function over 'function? for example (mapcar #'length string-list) vs (mapcar 'length string-list) 10:54:03 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-408301.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 10:54:41 no 10:55:29 Malkith: for global functions, no 10:55:40 for local functions you /must/ use #'foo 10:56:07 local functionis a function created with flet? 10:56:18 or labels 10:56:21 yes 11:02:34 nha [~prefect@5-74.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 11:03:21 what's the current state of climacs ? is it dead ? 11:04:27 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-187107.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:04:28 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.111.6] has joined #lisp 11:05:25 it haven't reached a climax yet 11:06:08 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.111.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:07:01 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-408301.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:09:11 daimrod: i hope to workon climacs in thr near future 11:09:57 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.163.119] has joined #lisp 11:12:31 i hope to climacs in the near future 11:17:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 11:18:01 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.163.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:18:51 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.163.119] has joined #lisp 11:19:41 cnl [~cnl@95.106.65.176] has joined #lisp 11:21:23 do most people here use slime? 11:21:32 chromaticwt: yes 11:21:46 hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD72D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:42 epsil [~vegard@ti0145a380-1822.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:26:46 join #emacs 11:27:02 epsil: no thanks, i'm fine here 11:27:20 stassats: lol, forgot the / 11:28:19 ok for climacs, and what about McClim. It looks really cool but the latest news is nearly 4 years old :( 11:29:16 comedy night today in #lisp, for once 11:31:18 -!- kilon_alios is now known as kilon 11:32:32 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:47 whats the advantage of using climacs over emacs ? 11:34:07 it has more bugs 11:34:26 :D 11:35:10 you can quickload climacs :) 11:36:01 stassats: you work(ed) on climacs righ 11:36:04 kilon: you'll have the pleasure of reimplementing a lot of your favourite modes! :D 11:36:07 t 11:36:39 :D 11:36:44 Quadresce_: no, i do(id)n't 11:36:55 O :( 11:37:11 Someone here did 11:37:34 Someone definitely did 11:37:35 it (together with mcclim) has too many problems to work on it 11:37:39 I never even tried it here so far 11:37:46 I think two years ago there was some hackathon, even 11:37:58 stassats: what problems 11:38:06 i'm not telling you 11:38:14 :C 11:38:15 anyone knows if its performance is/was better because it's CL and can be built with a good CL compiler? 11:38:31 phadthai: its performance is worse because mcclim is slow 11:38:38 heh ok 11:39:06 most parts of GNU Emacs which handle slow things are written in C 11:39:08 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl20-201-44.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:39:43 so Emacs Lisp doesn't really slow it down 11:40:23 stassats: except for blocking calls >_> 11:40:35 I wouldn't call emacs very fast though, at least vs vim 11:41:42 phadthai: you should type slower 11:41:52 or stop running emacs on a calculator 11:41:57 :) 11:42:05 :) 11:42:11 am0c [~am0c@58.227.209.51] has joined #lisp 11:44:09 Oh, I thought '11 was the number of decimal places. :S 11:44:33 Wrong chan. :D 11:44:54 you don't need to quote numbers, they're self-evaluating 11:47:03 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-86.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:50:41 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:52:55 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.163.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:54:13 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.163.119] has joined #lisp 11:59:28 -!- chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:00:02 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:00:28 chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:39 -!- Quadresce_ [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Bye] 12:04:43 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 12:07:11 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:07:32 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.138.247] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 12:08:14 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 12:09:07 -!- msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has quit [Quit: msponge] 12:11:01 silenius [~silenius@i59F769A5.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:11:07 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:12:21 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 12:13:14 pnq [~nick@ACA20A3D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:13:55 ikki [~ikki@189.139.221.111] has joined #lisp 12:17:58 ft [efftee@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has joined #lisp 12:18:13 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-46-245.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:19:22 urandom__ [~user@p548A3A04.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:26 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:23:43 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 12:25:30 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 12:26:27 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.163.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:27:54 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.163.119] has joined #lisp 12:29:09 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-240-100.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:29:44 -!- Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Cryotank2011] 12:29:53 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:33:04 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 12:35:02 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 12:35:47 Guthur [~user@host86-148-165-103.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:35:52 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:40:42 M-x slime-who-calls 'func 12:41:02 I'm getting "No references found for func". even though it exists and is called by various functions 12:42:25 Perhaps it's a different symbol, in a different package. 12:42:29 (apropos "FUNC") 12:43:01 apropos is finding it 12:43:28 (symbol-package 'func) 12:43:41 M-x slime-who-calls RET package::func RET 12:44:14 same thing 12:44:43 You're not reading it right. Lisppaste apropos output. 12:45:18 I killed the output and pasted it to minibuffer 12:45:56 Yes, but having func in the output of apropos doesn't mean that it's a function. 12:45:56 so it's right, something else is wrong 12:46:22 it's a function. and apropos shows it is, adding (fboundp) after it 12:46:27 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:46:34 ok. 12:46:43 And what package is it in? 12:47:27 common-lisp-user 12:47:38 ok. 12:47:38 msponge [~msponge@31-35-77.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 12:47:57 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:03 Well, then you should ask somebody who knows slime better than me. 12:48:09 Malkith: what implementation do you use? 12:48:28 sbcl 12:49:23 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:49:38 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.138.247] has joined #lisp 12:50:30 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.99] has joined #lisp 12:51:08 Malkith: i've just tried it with C-w C-w C-c over a symbol and that worked. i think you're doing something wrong. 12:52:23 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:04 -!- beelike [~beelike@76.73.16.26] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:53:30 kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-0-200-251.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:53:35 beelike [~beelike@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 12:54:06 Malkith: iirc you've to use slime-compile-and-load file to use C-c C-w C-c 12:55:11 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-113-29.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:56:03 C-w C-w C-c is something new? 12:56:26 tcr: no, i've used it for a long time. 12:56:29 I would have told Malkith to use M-? on the symbol 12:57:35 with what daimrod said, that the code needs to be compiled with (I guess) some certain debug level, but the default should be high enough. 12:57:49 -!- Malkith [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (Ping timeout)] 12:58:36 Malkith [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has joined #lisp 12:58:47 it worked with a code in slime-scratch, where i C-c both the caller and the callee. but doesn't work in my actual code. odd 12:59:23 I did not mess with debug settings. and I am loading the code with asdf:load-system 12:59:57 M-. works fine too 13:01:35 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 13:01:45 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:03:14 I just did slime-compile-and-load-file and now it works. doesn't asdf:load-system do that already? 13:03:21 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:41 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:12:11 -!- am0c [~am0c@58.227.209.51] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12:20 -!- chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:14:10 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:18:17 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:18:23 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 13:19:49 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:19:53 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:22:25 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:22:52 nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-240-100.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:25:24 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:00 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.99] has joined #lisp 13:26:30 how do i select the active connection C-M-x and the like in slime? 13:27:00 M-x slime-list-connections 13:27:20 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-062-054.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:19 stassats: thanks! 13:28:38 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:30:43 how usable is sbcl on windows? I see it finally changed from "Port in progress" to "Available and supported" 13:31:20 So it is available and supported. 13:31:22 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:31:28 That's how usable it is. 13:31:43 gabnet [~gabnet@ACaen-257-1-119-95.w86-220.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:32:01 heh well that doesn't tell me much. anyone has first hand experience with it? 13:32:26 beelike: I've used it a bit. It works pretty well. 13:32:29 beelike:Since it's avvvailable, you should be able to type (+ 1 2) at the REPL, and it should return 3. If not it's supported: you can report thebug. 13:32:36 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@98.143.159.179] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:34:07 beelike: i had no problems with it when i tested it a bit. 13:34:32 beelike: like i installed it, run hunchentoot on it, things worked as they work elsewhere and elsewith. 13:34:41 H4ns: there should also be a key binding to cycle through connections 13:35:21 tcr: C-c C-x n, thanks! 13:39:39 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:43 H4ns: nice article on ruby... 13:40:26 eMBee: thanks! 13:40:49 *eMBee* has some ruby books in his shelf waiting to be read. (they were cheap) 13:42:25 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:43:13 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:08 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-171-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:42 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-196-242.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:44:45 H4ns: this is how I write ruby: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/msg/56fce4adeaa79f68?hl=en 13:45:02 chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:18 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:45:43 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:45:56 pjb: *shiver* 13:48:08 sacho [~sacho@92-247-246-203.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 13:48:42 pjb: "when in ruby, do as the rubyists do" 13:48:54 pjb: or use lisp in the first place :) 13:49:16 Use lisp in the first place. 13:49:43 Notice that just using ruby lists of ruby symbols to denote programs, and generate code horrifies ruby programmers. THey're no reference. 13:50:37 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.163.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:50:48 pjb: if it did not sound so arrogant and if there were not so many working systems in ruby, i'd say it is a toy language :) 13:51:30 Well it was definitely designed as such :-) 13:51:55 kpreid_ [~kpreid@128.153.215.89] has joined #lisp 13:52:08 actually, a very interesting aspect of pjb's post on ruby is that he didn't get beat up for it... 13:52:24 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-196-242.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:52:34 eMBee: lisp programmers have quite some authority in the ruby crowd, i gather 13:52:40 like in "daddy's coming" 13:52:42 And with paredit, it's nicer to edit :-) 13:53:22 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.163.119] has joined #lisp 13:53:41 H4ns: sometimes it's "granddaddy you don't like to listen to" ;) 13:54:01 or it's "daddy" to "rebellious teenagers" 13:54:18 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:39 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@2.129.65.169] has joined #lisp 13:54:45 though the ruby crowd in general seems to be a nice bunch. went to a ruby conference once... 13:55:19 eMBee: the niceness of the crowd is one of the reasons for ruby's success 13:55:27 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:55:27 -!- kpreid_ is now known as kpreid 13:55:35 The Smalltalk object model is soothing. 13:55:49 *eMBee* nods at H4ns 13:56:17 pjb: but smalltalk is so much nicer than ruby really 13:57:09 gabnet_ [~gabnet@ACaen-257-1-19-86.w86-220.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:57:12 Is there a way to get the first and last few digits in big numbers, that is much faster than write-to-string and two subseq? Is subseq:ing near the end of a long string as slow as nth:ing a long list? 13:57:26 gaidal: digits in what base? 13:57:28 H4ns: parts of the crowd. And sometimes just on the surface. But I guess that comes from Rails ;) 13:57:35 (the not-always-nice parts) 13:57:36 pjb: 10 13:58:20 so, base two, in base two. You can use logbitp :-) 13:58:20 log mod and / should do 13:58:44 yake [~yake@115.223.10.231] has joined #lisp 13:58:46 (with integer-length). 13:58:47 base 17 in base 17, too 13:58:47 10 in decimal :P 13:58:51 gaidal: subseq would return a string in that case; do you want the digits in a string or as actual numeric values? 13:59:29 gaidal: the last few digits can be gained by modules of the multiple of the base 13:59:31 But yes, better use log mod and / once, than convert the whole bignum to a decimal representation. 13:59:38 tcr: Whichever is faster, I'm using a string now because I thought it would be fast enough. 13:59:52 er, modulus 14:00:04 Alright 14:00:21 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@ACaen-257-1-119-95.w86-220.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:00:44 gaidal: converting the number to a string is O(n) truncate operations (/ + mod). You need only two, one for the first and one for the last digit. 14:01:13 so does subseq scan memory like a linked list or is it somewhat constant time? 14:01:24 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-062-054.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:01:55 gaidal: on vectors, subseq is O(end-start). 14:01:57 pjb: oh it's that slow 14:02:17 On lists, it's O(end). 14:03:39 Do strings count as lists here? 14:04:14 Or rather, are they O(end) or O(end-start)... 14:04:22 string is a vector 14:04:49 so it's probably write-to-string that's taking time and not subseq... 14:05:04 OK, thanks! 14:05:17 gaidal: why don't you profile your code instead of guessing? 14:06:02 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:06:17 H4ns: I did think of it, but don't remember how to. :) 14:07:32 if only there were some searchable global communications network that you could use 14:07:47 hehe 14:08:11 Yeah it would actually make sense to go find out now. :P 14:08:24 gaidal: try C-h a profile CR 14:08:32 However, google *is* blocked here 14:09:25 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 14:09:29 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl20-201-44.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 14:09:41 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:10:28 Blocking google is insane. Are you working at bing? 14:10:58 pjb: whois says .cn 14:11:12 Bing has a dependency on google, so they couldn't block it 14:12:02 thekilon [~kilon@athedsl-187107.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:12:53 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.99] has joined #lisp 14:13:32 janissary [~user@adsl-98-85-5-173.mco.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:47 Let's hope US doesn't do the same 14:13:49 -!- yake [~yake@115.223.10.231] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 14:13:57 ("MPAA Boss: If The Chinese Censor The Internet Without A Problem, Why Can't The US?") 14:16:58 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:27 gaidal:  there's so much fail in that sentence 14:18:47 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3A04.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:20:07 p_l: yes it's quite amazing 14:20:11 -!- jimi_ [~jimi@unaffiliated/tuxguy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:21:02 -!- silenius [~silenius@i59F769A5.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:43 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:26:05 -!- thekilon [~kilon@athedsl-187107.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:26:26 lis_std [~lis@178.138.35.130] has joined #lisp 14:26:35 In fact ,GFW is nothing . People in China know more about proxy and vpn 14:27:18 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 14:28:05 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:28:22 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:28:30 They are quite aggressive against free VPN though, they get blocked hours after new versions come out 14:30:55 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:07 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:31:14 (well, the public ones...) 14:31:55 there always has to be some central repo, unless you're going to try and probe the whole internet 14:35:22 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.163.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:39:19 -!- PECCU is now known as peccu 14:45:26 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.89] has joined #lisp 14:47:55 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA20A3D.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:48:26 -!- peccu is now known as PECCU 14:49:28 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:51:23 simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has joined #lisp 14:52:08 -!- simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:41 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:57:44 simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has joined #lisp 14:57:54 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl20-201-44.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:58:09 -!- simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:04:56 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-148-165-103.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:06:16 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 15:08:14 gaidal: You can test go-agent 15:08:44 try this google App 15:09:09 -!- gabnet_ [~gabnet@ACaen-257-1-19-86.w86-220.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 15:11:35 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.187.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:11:42 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-240-100.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:13:44 simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has joined #lisp 15:15:29 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:17:32 joast [~rick@76.178.187.164] has joined #lisp 15:18:11 dcguru [~chatzilla@66.129.60.130] has joined #lisp 15:20:36 -!- simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:27 simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has joined #lisp 15:21:30 -!- simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:42 `gensym [~user@175.124.95.120] has joined #lisp 15:23:45 simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has joined #lisp 15:23:50 -!- simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:10 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:27:04 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.219] has joined #lisp 15:28:09 nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-240-100.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:28:34 simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has joined #lisp 15:28:37 -!- simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:29:40 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Quit: restarting] 15:30:11 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 15:33:30 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 15:33:49 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:32 H4ns: I very much enjoyed the conference video of you recent "style" talk 15:37:54 mon_key: thanks! 15:39:44 H4ns: to clarify -- enjoyed as in i learned something and it gave me some food for thought. I also laughed out loud a few times too and there were moments of high comedy. 15:40:03 simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has joined #lisp 15:40:14 mon_key: what was the funny thing? 15:40:37 your response to the comment about using the 80 column rule for the visually impaired 15:41:12 -!- simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:41:46 mon_key: oh, i don't quite remember that. maybe i'll have to watch the video again myself. i had originally planned for the snatch citation to be very funny, but i could not integrate the video sequence properly. 15:41:58 Noctifer [~Noctifer@89.204.130.3] has joined #lisp 15:43:01 also the look on your face as you simultaneously expressed understanding and what i took to be complete dismay that anyone would use that as a sane rationale for 80 column 15:43:22 mon_key: ok, i'll review that :) 15:44:42 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: [ Close the World, Open the nExt ]] 15:45:14 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.102] has joined #lisp 15:46:07 mon_key: but really, it is a mean form of argumentation. there will always be people who can't do some activity because of their physical or mental abilities. 15:47:00 simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has joined #lisp 15:47:30 -!- simplucid [~user@116.36.195.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:48:50 add^_ [~add^_^@h59n2c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:23 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:50:01 FWIW the biggest things i took from your talk were: a) consistent use of iteration idioms -- loop vs. do b) future programmers won't appreciate your homebrewed macro-ified/DSL API just use the CL API 15:51:11 mon_key: that makes me glad, as that is what i meant to say. 15:53:50 H4ns: Thanks for taking the time to do the presentation. I believe Quicklisp will bring many new CLers to the community in the coming years and it was a nice to have a semi-authoritative voice to formally convey some best practices. 15:59:13 mon_key: both the "semi authoritative" and the "best practices" are certainly subject to constant debate, rightfully so :) 15:59:42 pavelpenev [53dea791@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.222.167.145] has joined #lisp 16:01:25 iwillig [~ivan@74.72.59.207] has joined #lisp 16:07:21 duomo [~duomo@cpe-67-248-14-24.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:10:27 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:12:17 H4ns: Where is your talk:-) 16:13:07 H4ns: I would suggest that there are indeed current semi-authorities in the CL community and that you are counted among that set. Whatever, it would be interesting to read a community drafted (or acknowledged) style guide for new CL projects which seek to become a "batteries included" library. I am not aware of such a document. 16:14:39 chenbing: http://blip.tv/eclm 16:14:52 chenbing: http://blip.tv/eclm/eclm-2011-hans-h%C3%BCbner-write-code-like-someone-s-going-to-read-it-5771389 16:15:28 -!- janissary [~user@adsl-98-85-5-173.mco.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:16:25 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 16:17:06 Oop. Everyone here is famous hacker 16:17:36 wizardcloud_adam [~wizardclo@221.0.147.106] has joined #lisp 16:17:58 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:18:08 Although It's another site need proxy. Thank you H4NS 16:19:06 -!- wizardcloud_adam [~wizardclo@221.0.147.106] has left #lisp 16:19:26 HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db58bde.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:52 -!- `gensym [~user@175.124.95.120] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:20:04 puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:27:05 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:27:15 entrix_ [~entrix@95-25-239-2.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 16:32:35 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.72] has joined #lisp 16:43:01 i could never see myself do programming for a living, I love programming but not that much, but with emacs (+ slime) and lisp i really can. The more I read and test, they more I love it, its like.... 16:43:06 christmals :D 16:43:14 *Christmas 16:43:55 even database programming looks exciting :D 16:45:26 kilon: beware the the "bi-polar lisp programmer" http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm 16:46:04 they all amphibians, all creeping low..... 16:46:05 lol 16:46:24 mon_key: I won't watch those videos until somebody filters out that noise. 16:46:31 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:48:40 pjb: Yeah, the noise really sucks. But, not having the resources to make it to the conference I'm happy the videos _are_ available. 16:50:43 mon_key: if I was pro programmer that blog entry would worry me, gladly I am not. Another reason why I am not pro, I don't like others to choose my tools. 16:52:07 kilon: sounds like you fit the profile :) 16:52:25 mon_key: how so ? 16:53:24 -!- entrix_ [~entrix@95-25-239-2.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:56:05 kilon: intelligent mind attracted to lisp and its power, likely has strong sense of independence and "go it alone"attitude, inhabits a programming community generally acknowledged as non-conformant... 16:57:58 i find intelligence overated , i am a lone wolf thats true, non-confomant part is abit tricky yes and no, unless you consider python non conformant , I dont like most popular choices, but they don't scare me away 16:58:35 -!- chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:59:16 chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:18 chp [~user@c-68-45-180-238.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:21 Blkt [~user@82.84.182.166] has joined #lisp 17:00:19 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has left #lisp 17:00:27 I do enjoy lisp's uniqueness though , probably why it makes programming so exciting for most newcomers, don't know if that wears off soon, I hope it does not 17:01:53 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@host109-145-12-179.range109-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:03:45 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:03:45 -!- akovalenko [~akovalenk@77.51.45.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:04:23 akovalenko [~akovalenk@95.73.217.209] has joined #lisp 17:06:13 I have a small question 17:06:15 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:15 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:06:15 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 17:06:15 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.102] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 17:06:34 With quickproject--should I include the required libraries inside the project directory? 17:06:52 no 17:07:17 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db58bde.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:09:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:10:21 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.72] has joined #lisp 17:12:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.6.226] has joined #lisp 17:12:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.6.226] has quit [Changing host] 17:12:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:14:26 kilon: I sort of fit the bipolar lisp programmer profile, and the article did bug me for a while, but the more i study lisp, and the more i learn how to work around my own peculiarities(I'm beyond a horrible procrastinator), i think i can get away with using it to make a living. 17:15:33 the point of the post is basically narcism , right ? "I am took good for this world" 17:17:01 actually the reason why I did not want to learn lisp is that I meet a couple of lisp devs (not full time) who were into the whole hacker philosophy and intelligent programming with inferiority / superirority complexes and that put me off learning it 17:17:10 luckyxus [~dolovor@46.197.40.12] has joined #lisp 17:17:11 * I met 17:18:47 we made a small forum because basically we were at Programming Talk in ubuntu forums where moderator were baning people blindly and keept trolls around , but the forume eventually turned into "you suck we rock" and pretty much put me off lisp and programming forums for a long time 17:20:06 krrrcks [~user@ip-109-47-177-73.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 17:20:09 I only want to learn something that will make my life easier and have fun with it, not become "hacker" or Lord of Programming 17:20:14 oudeis [~oudeis@host109-151-179-252.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:20:39 Yeah, elitism can be quite a problem--it only turns people off 17:21:36 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.102] has joined #lisp 17:22:13 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:25 Hi, is detachtty still a favorite way to load a lisp image on startup or how to you handle that? 17:22:39 *H4ns* uses tmux 17:24:06 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:09 kilon: I don't think Travers was being narcissistic -- he is a victim of lisp like many of us -- Indeed his Qi is a very good example of the bi-polar lisper at play. 17:24:10 Cosman246: I dont me you telliming lisp works, I dont mind people telling they favorite language is best, but when you stop attacking languages and then attack people, it makes no sense to me, if one choose to be a bad coder he choose to be a bad coder, then end does not stop spinning 17:24:57 kilon: Yeah, I see 17:25:00 by *you* I dont mean you specific, sorry I am greek and sometimes I know I dont make much sense 17:25:06 :D 17:25:27 kilon: in any event, my point in linking you the article was not to insult (the opposite in fact) but rather to politely warn where certain dragons may live :) 17:26:32 mon_key: its a very good article , I can only agree with it. Coding as much sophisticated it can be , its neither the beginning nor the end of things 17:27:45 afterall a language just express ideas and ideas matter alot more than the language, I am also not buying into the whole argument of the language limits thinking, it limits expression 17:27:46 kilon: Welcome to lisp, happy hacking, and good luck! 17:28:10 H4ns: Thx, I'll have a look. 17:28:33 mon_key: nice to meet you , thank you , hope I can manage to learn lisp well 17:28:49 kilon: and BTW Lisp _is_ the superior langauage - woot woot! ;-) 17:29:21 *kilon* wears his war helmet 17:29:31 no python is :D 17:31:05 kilon: python has had 20 years to get scoping right, it didn't. sorry :D 17:31:19 does lisp compile to some sort of bytecode like python or is it machine language compilation ? 17:31:39 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-68-173-18-241.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:31:43 i am abit confused about the whole compilation / intepreter thing in lisp 17:32:22 kilon: depends on the implementation. SBCL compiles to machine code(and wipes the floor with lesser languages in terms of speed) Clisp compiles to bytecode like python. 17:32:48 Also a good lisp system will have both a compiler and an interpreter 17:33:02 as both have their uses 17:33:35 ok i see, interpreter is used for live coding situations mainly ? 17:34:36 Depending on how its set up, typeing something in a REPL could get compiled or interpreted 17:34:40 "live coding" is common in CL, independently of interpreted vs. compile-only implementations. 17:35:25 interpreting might be useful if your functions use macros that you redefine frequently during development. 17:35:32 oh wait you can do live coding with compiler ? 0_0 that would be very interesting 17:35:48 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 17:35:55 kilon: There's a function DISASSEMBLE which will show you what a function will boil down to. 17:36:26 pavelpenev: or it might be useless (consider SBCL, which can be turned to interpreted evaluator mode, but macroexpansion is not delayed anyway) 17:36:27 tcr: i have seen it mentioned in the slime manual too, very interesting 17:36:27 Clojure has no interpreter, but still has a REPL. 17:36:35 kilon: If you have the compiler and loader available at runtime, sure 17:36:59 so it recompiles it on the fly ? 17:37:03 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:37:11 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 17:37:23 or does it directly interact with the memory ? 17:37:31 kilon: Yes. (In practise, your development environment does it) 17:37:44 akovalenko: So even if i define a function foo that uses a macro bar, and i compile foo, and redefine bar, i don't have to recompile foo? 17:38:22 extremely interesting 17:38:29 pavelpenev: the reverse. i.e. you *have* to recompile foo, even if it's interpreted (for sbcl interpreted mode). 17:38:34 kilon: If you call a function FOO, the call is usually compiled down to an indirect jump through the SYMBOL-FUNCTION of symbol FOO. 17:38:38 how fast are the lisp compiler, does recompile the whole application for a small change ? 17:38:46 *(for both compiled & interpreted modes) 17:38:53 kilon: At runtime, you can replace what the SYMBOL-FUNCTION slot of symbol FOO points to 17:39:33 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.182.166] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:39:50 ok so it uses references for functions like python 17:39:51 kilon: that depends on the vendor 17:40:21 akovalenko: in *evaluator-mode* :interpret, even macros get late binding, actually 17:40:26 akovalenko: I remember an Erik Naggum article where he talked about this, and when i tested it with SBCL i think i got the right result(i didn't have to redefine) I should investigate this again. 17:40:32 kilon: Usually it's not a good idea to directly think of how language A work by terms of language B 17:41:17 you are correct, i am sure this is a total different implementation 17:41:30 nikodemus, pavelpenev: hmm, I should test it again. Actualy, the very same Naggum's article inclined me to test it several months ago.. 17:43:00 http://paste.lisp.org/display/126426 17:43:23 Sorry for misinformation; SBCL macroexpands lately indeed. 17:44:03 how if only the interpreted code was a bit more debuggable, and not /quite/ so slow 17:46:55 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:47:15 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 17:48:20 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has joined #lisp 17:48:33 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:48:33 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:48:33 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 17:48:58 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:49:15 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 17:49:59 meta-coder [~meta@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 17:50:54 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:51:46 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 17:53:41 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:56:12 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:59:22 me345 [~me345@75.15.183.164] has joined #lisp 18:00:27 -!- sacho [~sacho@92-247-246-203.spectrumnet.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:01:37 -!- waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has quit [Quit: waltwhite] 18:02:18 MrUnagi [~mrunagi@74-93-222-38-WashingtonDC.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:13 -!- MrUnagi [~mrunagi@74-93-222-38-WashingtonDC.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:40 waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has joined #lisp 18:06:07 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:06:51 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:13 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:07:39 Xach: The simplest, "failsafe" thing to do from a user's and implementation's perspective is just include the CLHS in uncompressed form (13.9MB) instead of compressed form (1.9MB). Does that sound acceptable to you? 18:08:09 What makes Lisp great? 18:08:29 #lisp 18:08:30 meta-coder: It's the best tool to make the best tool for any job. 18:08:42 Hexstream, :) 18:09:53 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-50-135-152-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:11:10 tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:26 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 18:14:36 what is the most stable common lisp implementation? 18:14:45 that could be used for a production project. 18:15:35 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:15:38 chromaticwt: SBCL is great and actively developed. I'm not sure if that counts as "stable". There's also CCL. Those are both free and fast. 18:16:08 dagda [~dagda_@c-98-245-158-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:36 chromaticwt: For the open source implementations, both SBCL and CCL are known to be used in production systems. 18:16:41 Is there an equivalent to l1sp.org in SLIME ? 18:16:50 daimrod: C-c C-d h? 18:16:56 chromaticwt: If that is "stable" enough for you, you have decide yourself. 18:17:01 And C-c C-d ~ for FORMAT directives. 18:17:21 Hexstream: well, it doesn't work for symbols like #. or #' 18:17:44 daimrod: Those are reader macros. And yeah, it doesn't work for that. 18:17:51 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-320867.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:18:11 daimrod: clhs 2.4 18:18:53 clhs 2.4.8 for "#", which is a "dispatching macro character". For things like #. and #'. 18:19:11 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-187107.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:20:02 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:20:12 tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:04 thanks. 18:21:53 C-c C-d # for those 18:22:21 tcr: Damn, I knew there must be one. 18:22:31 tcr: Nice! 18:23:35 meta-coder: http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html 18:23:40 ... there really SHOULD be a all-in-one for symbols, FORMAT directives and reader-macros :/ 18:24:38 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:24:53 *meta-coder* would like to learn Lisp, because Lisp is a AI language!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programming_languages_for_artificial_intelligence 18:26:16 meta-coder: I recommend Peter Seibel's book 'Practical Common Lisp': http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 18:27:05 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:27:45 krrrcks, thanks :) I am excited about learning Lisp! 18:28:09 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-171-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:31:19 -!- changed is now known as tempire 18:32:44 tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:11 Xach: The more I think about it, the more the "just include the uncompressed CLHS" solution seems like the right way, so I'll go with that. 18:35:14 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 18:36:27 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:46 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 18:42:43 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:43:35 Ars0nide [d0365696@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.54.86.150] has joined #lisp 18:46:29 -!- H4ns [~user@64.206.187.68] has quit [Quit: 7 floors up] 18:47:00 so are there any good starting guides for semi-idiots? I have already found Land of Lisp and some Youtube videos. 18:47:23 Ars0nide: I recommend Peter Seibel's book 'Practical Common Lisp': http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 18:47:32 Land of Lisp is a nice book as well. 18:47:41 Everything else is pretty dense. 18:47:52 Land of Lisp seems to be idiot friendly for people like us Ars0nide 18:48:23 i have read half of it so far, its very good 18:48:29 unbelievable. format falls short! (format nil "~V,'0,' ,4:B" 16 #b101011 2) prints "00000000010 1011", not "0000 000 0010 1011" :/ 18:48:35 do i dare say one of the best book i have read about programming so far 18:48:57 and my reading of the spec is that that's actually right, so can't even change it... 18:49:35 Ars0nide: if you don't know much about programming "Common Lisp A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" might be good. 18:50:13 that one has too much blahblah for my taste 18:50:31 -!- kilon_alios is now known as kilon 18:51:31 i did not find it that "gentle" but you mileage may vary ;) 18:52:01 -!- luckyxus [~dolovor@46.197.40.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:52:21 <|3b|> nikodemus: yeah, that one can be annoying :( 18:52:57 I have lots of experience programming. But LISP is so alien I have been overwhelmed 18:54:23 I would be surprised if you did not, even smalltalk for me was quite overwhelming 18:54:53 did not help me the fact that most smalltalkers consider smalltalker "easy" 18:54:56 *consider smalltalk 18:55:22 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 18:55:44 kilon: it takes quite a while to 'get' the lisp way. 18:56:05 kilon: but it's been worth it for me. 18:56:27 ehu i read that alot, cant say exactly what it means , but will phone you back when I do :D 18:58:21 is there any practical reason to code lisp on linux instead of windows? 18:58:25 besides emacs. 18:58:53 windows does not have emacs ? 18:58:54 Ars0nide: the available implementations? 18:59:02 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:59:05 Ars0nide: (but I use emacs on windows) 18:59:55 kilon: for me every lisp program is a new small DSL, with small (easily comprehensible) functions for very specific tasks, mostly classifications. Then, after I build the DSL, I'll write a (usually small) program on top of it. During this process, I experiment with the building blocks at the REPL 18:59:59 :) 19:00:10 I have virtualized Ubuntu with emacs and slime and tried steel bank and sublime text in windows 19:00:17 feels similar so far 19:00:29 -!- krrrcks [~user@ip-109-47-177-73.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 19:00:58 ehu: what you work on ? 19:02:11 and in what way lisp benefits you ? practically 19:02:30 kilon: I'm the maintainer of cl-irc, co-maintainer of ABCL, original author of usocket. I work on an inhouse tool for the dutch postal services which they use to model their process flow of the primary production process as part of a larger system. 19:02:31 luckyxus [~dolovor@46.197.40.12] has joined #lisp 19:02:58 I'm also developing a tool to support financial controllers in their budgetting/ forecasting tasks 19:03:06 all of it in Lisp. 19:03:17 i am still wondering if DSL is that diffirent from creating your object and functions in another programming language, so I am abit sceptical, I can see the benefit syntax wise , but is it that big ? 19:03:20 pauld [~paul@c-174-56-154-12.hsd1.sc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:37 H4ns [~user@64.206.187.68] has joined #lisp 19:03:57 oh nice you are a pro lisper then , nice to meet you 19:04:03 <|3b|> kilon: consider that LOOP can be implemented by user code in lisp 19:04:21 <|3b|> kilon: or CLOS for that matter 19:04:26 -!- beelike [~beelike@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Session timeout)] 19:04:44 kilon: in my budgetting application, I'm using the lisp parser and lexer to read input files which contain very complex lisp statements, conceiled as simple - user comprehensible - 'model creation statements' 19:05:04 I think it goes further than objects or functions. 19:05:29 kilon: there are a number of lisp-pros here 19:06:02 each statement in the budget model 'hooks up an element into the broader model' 19:06:05 its hard when you are raised 20 years into object and function to comprehend the usefulness of lisp 19:06:21 that must be the biggest disadvantage of lisp 19:06:26 kilon: why are you curious abut lisp? 19:06:31 Will they explode if I say a function "returns a value"? 19:06:31 *about 19:06:44 Ars0nide: heh. no. 19:07:03 :( 19:07:12 Fade: I am actually learning lisp and emacs , reading book and such , so not just curious 19:07:13 Ars0nide: in lisp functions do that as well. (can return multiple values, even) 19:07:39 kilon: I think Fade's question is what you think to gain by it. 19:07:47 pretty much everybody here likes the language for different reasons. some of us even use it profesionally. 19:07:49 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has joined #lisp 19:07:54 Fade: I am not that happy with programming languages , I want more freedom of expression 19:08:09 I read that "evaluates to a result" is the preferred term. 19:08:27 kilon: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs might be a book that you'd appreciate then 19:09:12 Ars0nide: A form evaluates to a result. A functions returns zero, one, or multiple values. 19:09:19 well, fwiw, I've been working as a professional programmer since about 1987, and i haven't yet found anything as flexible as lisp. as I said though, everybody seems to have a different set of reasons why they like common lisp. 19:09:24 those that do, that is. 19:09:28 What draws me to Lisp is probably , live coding, the ability to form programms while they run, AI 19:09:44 that's not unique to lisp 19:10:11 and the whole flexibility of the language 19:10:13 python and ruby and perl all have dynamic coding support. 19:10:28 but foremost, the fact that so many people consider it a top language 19:10:45 Myself, I have developed a procedurally generated universe from space dpwn to pebbles, including timelines, in C++. 19:10:58 dynamic coding is not live coding 19:10:59 i wouldn't listen to people, they are usually wrong 19:11:10 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-68-173-18-241.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 19:11:11 you cant add a loop in python while it runs 19:11:21 I think LISP would be better suited and give me more power. 19:11:24 *python app 19:12:04 stassats: "The cretans are all liars." 19:12:11 Most of it is math and algorithms. 19:12:19 you can manipulate data , but not code, from what I read here and in the books lisp can do it 19:12:48 iPython is the closest you can get to live coding in python 19:12:55 homoiconicity is one of the major features of lisp, yes. 19:13:02 but iPython is a tool for python and not python itself 19:13:04 code and data having the same representation. 19:13:34 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:13:37 and its not truely live coding, more like a hack 19:13:53 anyhow, talking about why you should or shouldn't is a waste of time. evaluate the system and see if it actually works in practice; handwaving isn't going to help you decide if you're on the right path. 19:14:00 yes thats one of things that interest me in lisp , the fact that there is no code or data 19:14:35 I dont try to decide , I have already or else I would not waste my whole weekend on it :D 19:14:47 -!- Malkith [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (Session timeout)] 19:15:05 antifuchs [~foobar@50-0-91-119.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-86.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:16:04 -!- pauld [~paul@c-174-56-154-12.hsd1.sc.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:16:09 "whole weekend", impressive 19:16:24 the Slime video , pretty much convinced me , that lisp is the closest I can get to what I consider ideal programming language, but of course time will tell how correct this assesment is, I thought smalltalk was my holy grail :D 19:16:57 stassats: for you it may not be, but I rarely delay decisions :D 19:17:37 required reading: http://norvig.com/21-days.html 19:17:55 stassats: you should see me shopping :D 19:18:28 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:18:45 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:19:28 stassats: you misunderstood, I am not in any hurry to learn lisp, far far from it. I just dont like to take too much time to make up my mind. 19:19:37 coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:37 -!- coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:19:37 coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 19:20:11 "ideal programming" is the programming you don't need to do, and more important, you don't need to maintain :) 19:20:33 in that sense, lisp is close :) 19:20:56 but not that close 19:20:58 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:09 i propose to stop talking about lisp and start writing some code in it instead 19:22:14 you still have to write tests, write docs, fix bugs, deal with random shit, and do all of the boring, stupid things every body else has to. You just do less of it in lisp :) 19:22:45 tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:00 I do like writting docs, but I dont like bugs 19:23:15 stassats: I multitask :D 19:23:37 then write twice more code 19:23:41 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host133-226-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:23:56 why whats the hurry ;) 19:24:16 its as if anybody pays me to do so 19:24:18 stassats: NOO, write twice less code, twice the usefulness :) 19:24:41 ^ 19:26:13 kilon: being payed is my eventual goal 19:26:27 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.164.107] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27:08 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-383620.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:29:02 stassats: the one true virtue I find in a programmer is not that he knows how to write code. it is that he knows how (and when!) to *eliminate* code. 19:29:07 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-320867.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:29:37 (reaction to: "then write twice the amount of code") 19:30:06 sacho [~sacho@90.154.207.232] has joined #lisp 19:30:24 had to eliminate almost half of my code (1000 lines) because of dead end in a blender addon I created , was not happy at all 19:30:49 -!- kilon_alios is now known as kilon 19:31:03 seeing all this hard work go wasted 19:31:07 HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db58bde.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:44 kilon: 90% of the code I've written is gone(scraped project, refactored away, or was typed in a repl), but 100% of the lessons stay with me :) 19:33:21 I'm with pavelpenev there. 19:33:27 pavelpenev: well in my case was that I just trusted documentation and was optimistic 19:33:39 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 19:34:16 ehu: you can't remove code without it being written in the first place 19:34:22 and then I came agains data that was interdependent and interencapsulated (one inside another with dependencies pretty much everywhere) making close to impossible to store 19:34:40 at least for my level of skill as coder 19:35:03 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.221.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:35:03 stassats: true. 19:35:15 certainly lesson learned ... a ) test b) test and c) test before coding 19:35:29 dont trust docs 19:37:01 kilon: bad docs are worse than no docs, but i generally trust them until proven I can't. Saves time in the general case. 19:37:20 Posterdati [~tapioca@87.19.49.170] has joined #lisp 19:37:35 I've used libraries with no docs, its a bitch. 19:37:36 ikki [~ikki@189.139.221.111] has joined #lisp 19:37:46 well that was the end of me trusting docs, I will read of course, but there is not way I code anything that big without thorough testing first 19:38:00 again 19:38:04 how big is big? 19:38:40 1000 lines of python code , was quite big for me 19:39:53 You wrote 1000 lines without checking to see if it worked? Wow, I don't write 5 without testing it in the repl, even in python(which i haven't used in 3 years probably) 19:40:03 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:40:16 Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:17 I dont even write a line without running my code 19:40:25 it worked, but it was a dead end 19:40:44 -!- chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:40:58 could you elaborate? 19:41:13 -!- foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:41:33 could you continue this on #python or something? 19:42:07 why ? its not a python issue , its general programming 19:42:33 kilon: yeah, well general programming is not #lisp, sorry stassats 19:42:39 benny` [~benny@i577A28BC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:44:26 -!- benny [~benny@i577A3EE2.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:45:24 -!- benny` is now known as benny 19:46:08 pavelpenev: i pm you, sorry guys did not realise that general programming discussion was not allowed here 19:47:02 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 19:47:13 -!- saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA056C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:47:46 chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:52 foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:55:12 -!- lis_std [~lis@178.138.35.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:57:11 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.138.247] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 19:57:19 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-016.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:58:32 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db58bde.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 19:58:51 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-030.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:59:27 pnq [~nick@AC816512.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:36 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:37 -!- nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:03:51 lghtng [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/lghtng] has joined #lisp 20:04:08 -!- kilon is now known as kilon_away 20:06:27 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-170-242.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:09:26 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 20:10:45 ignas_ [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:13:13 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:13:47 Xach: Ok, here's a basis: https://github.com/Hexstream/clhs I did my best to package this in the most sensible way I can, let me know of any concerns. In particular I'm not sure if this "Proprietary + Public Domain" stuff even makes sense... 20:17:13 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@2.129.65.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:18:32 -!- sacho [~sacho@90.154.207.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:18:41 -!- Ars0nide [d0365696@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.54.86.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:19:38 bieber [~quassel@162-78.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:55 -!- msponge [~msponge@31-35-77.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: msponge] 20:22:31 HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db58bde.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:22 MrUnagi [~mrunagi@184.242.189.30] has joined #lisp 20:27:05 -!- pnq [~nick@AC816512.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:27:35 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:28:38 -!- puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:51 Phooodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:51 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:51 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:31 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 20:33:18 Hmm, I'm working with my sca.... 20:33:56 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-171-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:25 sacho [~sacho@90.154.207.232] has joined #lisp 20:35:57 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has joined #lisp 20:36:10 -!- MrUnagi [~mrunagi@184.242.189.30] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 20:37:27 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.187.36] has joined #lisp 20:40:55 -!- pavelpenev [53dea791@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.222.167.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:44:02 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-68-173-18-241.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:45:43 fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-171-6.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:45:45 dsrguru [~dsr@132.161.245.46] has joined #lisp 20:46:29 is there a more idiomatic way to do (setf some-list (cons new-car some-list)) ? 20:46:52 vjacob [~vjacob@94-195-174-165.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:47:24 (push new-car some-list) 20:48:00 (push new-car my-garage) 20:48:22 thanks 20:48:24 you might want to use the drive generic function for that (; 20:48:31 -!- Phooodus is now known as Phoodus 20:48:55 fine, (push old-beater junkyard) ;) 20:48:56 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-170-242.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:50:09 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 20:53:21 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@50-0-91-119.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:53:30 -!- dsrguru [~dsr@132.161.245.46] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:58:23 -!- sacho [~sacho@90.154.207.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:03:32 epsi47 [~vegard@ti0145a380-0200.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:04:46 kfizz [~kyle@74.197.120.228] has joined 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21:40:04 saeftl [cbauerm@pestilenz.org] has joined #lisp 21:40:35 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 21:40:59 hi. is there a standard way to globally set the EXTERNAL-FORMAT keyword? 21:41:13 Ah, yes, EXTERNAL-FORMAT 21:41:20 Just what I was wondering, too 21:41:31 saeftl: no 21:42:53 stassats: i get an error from SB-SYS:FD-STREAM which in turn is called by asdf:load-system, i have no idea how to fix that 21:45:02 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 21:45:19 chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:51 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:58 -!- luckyxus [~dolovor@46.197.40.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:48:03 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 21:48:04 Maybe I should just use CL-Unicode 21:48:12 YuleAthas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 21:48:45 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:49:22 sb-impl::*default-external-format* 21:49:39 ..not a standard way, of course. 21:50:50 -!- YuleAthas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:52 Meh, I'll just include a bit of documentation on the fact the implementation's mileage may vary on unicode 21:52:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-030.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:53:07 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.9] has joined #lisp 21:53:11 luckyxus [~dolovor@46.197.40.12] has joined #lisp 21:54:00 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:21 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 21:56:40 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-242.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:07 chenbing` [~user@115.206.199.119] has joined #lisp 21:57:13 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:57:18 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has quit [Remote host 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[~me345@adsl-75-15-183-164.dsl.bkfd14.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:16 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest43172 22:22:39 xristos [~x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 22:22:59 -!- xristos is now known as Guest39079 22:23:34 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has joined #lisp 22:23:38 -!- kilon_away [~kilon@athedsl-321007.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 267 seconds] 22:23:38 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:24:14 ApeShot [~user@rrcs-24-106-184-123.se.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:30 Anyone else have problems with cl-match on allegro cl when using recursion? 22:25:17 aperturefever [20164@ninthfloor.org] has joined #lisp 22:25:18 ec [~me@ell.io] has joined #lisp 22:25:18 mtd [~martin@chop.xades.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:19 fmu [UNKNOWN@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 22:25:19 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:25:19 boyscared [~bm3719@muze.x.rootbsd.net] has 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|3b| [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:39 setmeaway [oosool3@119.201.52.190] has joined #lisp 22:25:39 ASau` [~user@95-26-61-217.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 22:25:42 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 22:25:44 GeneralMaximus [~general@178.63.185.174] has joined #lisp 22:25:45 oudeis [~oudeis@host109-151-179-252.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:47 -!- klutometis is now known as Guest71314 22:25:50 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:26:02 dcguru [~chatzilla@66.129.60.130] has joined #lisp 22:26:17 Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has joined #lisp 22:26:21 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:26:58 specifically: http://pastebin.com/LP6rrAc0 22:27:19 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:28 It seems to match on the initial call, just as it should 22:27:36 hd being 1 tl being (3 4 5) 22:27:36 -!- zakwilson_ [~quassel@chat.qniformchat.com] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 22:27:40 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:27:43 nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:44 And then on the second call, it gives the error 22:27:52 And then on all subsequent calls it gives the error initially 22:27:54 zakwilson [~quassel@chat.qniformchat.com] has joined #lisp 22:28:36 -!- Guest39079 is now known as xristos 22:29:24 -!- zakwilson is now known as zakwilson_ 22:29:54 -!- zakwilson_ is now known as zakwilson 22:30:00 SpitfireWP [~spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 22:30:18 elliottjohnson [~elliott@elliottjohnson.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:47 -!- twopi [~tristan@lvps176-28-16-172.dedicated.hosteurope.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:32:47 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:32:59 Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:04 *Xach* has not used cl-match 22:33:44 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.13] has joined #lisp 22:34:33 CL-MATCH seems to expand into destructive code 22:34:34 -!- kwmiebach_ [kwmiebach@31-222-138-133.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:34:44 Maybe there is some kind of issue with scope and variables lying around 22:34:47 kwmiebach [kwmiebach@31-222-138-133.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:35:26 Too bad. Pattern matching is awesome. 22:36:31 jayne [~jayne@freenode/staff/jayne] has joined #lisp 22:36:32 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:12 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 22:37:53 twopi [~tristan@lvps176-28-16-172.dedicated.hosteurope.de] has joined #lisp 22:37:59 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 22:38:18 There's always cl-unification. 22:38:28 ApeShot: for what it's worth, I get no error for your function. 22:38:38 I'm using SBCL with cl-match. 22:39:38 I am using allegro-cl 22:39:50 worked fine on CCL too 22:40:01 Might this have something to do with the fact that SBCL always compiles forms? 22:40:29 ApeShot: I don't know, sorry. 22:41:15 Oh well. 22:41:27 I'll send a bug report 22:41:31 Thanks! 22:42:23 ASau`` [~user@176.14.209.86] has joined #lisp 22:42:35 ApeShot: it works on ABCL as well. 22:42:36 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-171-26.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:07 *Xach* also really likes that ql makes it easy to test library-using code 22:44:27 in here it works on sbcl, ccl, clisp, fails on allegro and lispworks 22:44:44 Good to know its not just me, then 22:44:53 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:45:01 Xach: right. I didn't have cl-match before the test. just quickloaded it. 22:45:28 ThomasH [4b1349ad@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 22:45:34 Greetings lispers. 22:45:46 hi people 22:46:08 epsil [~vegard@ti0145a380-0200.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:46:13 -!- ASau` [~user@95-26-61-217.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:46:22 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:46:59 Ok, I'm done for awhile, at least. 22:47:02 Thanks, folks. 22:47:06 -!- ApeShot [~user@rrcs-24-106-184-123.se.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:07 welcome 22:47:11 hmm. too late. 22:47:47 antifuchs [~foobar@50-0-91-119.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:13 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 22:49:17 -!- iwillig [~ivan@74.72.59.207] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:51:52 -!- me345 [~me345@adsl-75-15-183-164.dsl.bkfd14.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:52:07 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:59:24 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 23:00:34 I have a requirement to use EXPORT instead of the :EXPORT option of DEFPACKAGE. What EVAL-WHEN situations should be used with the EXPORT form? 23:01:11 none, normally 23:01:16 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:01:16 why do you have that requirement 23:01:17 ? 23:02:38 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:02:58 stassats: Ok, I rarely use EVAL-WHEN, so I'm not very knowledgeable on when it applies. 23:02:59 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD72D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:04:00 Kron [~Kron@69.166.26.192] has joined #lisp 23:04:16 -!- Guest43172 is now known as pkhuong- 23:04:26 -!- Kron is now known as Guest93718 23:05:46 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:06:18 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:07:23 snafuchs [~foobar@care.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:28 -!- H4ns [~user@64.206.187.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:11:00 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:13:24 -!- pkhuong- is now known as pkhuong 23:13:32 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@50-0-91-119.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 23:13:32 -!- snafuchs is now known as antifuchs 23:15:38 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 23:19:50 -!- lnostdal_ [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:20:38 bozhidar [~user@pool-96-241-113-73.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:53 -!- bozhidar [~user@pool-96-241-113-73.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:23:37 lnostdal_ [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:04 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 23:26:27 is it possible to alias a package name? 23:26:45 it is possible to add a nickname 23:27:14 can I do that in an importing package? 23:27:21 no 23:27:22 i.e. not in the original 23:27:30 -!- xan_ [~xan@243.Red-88-1-40.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:28:03 shame 23:28:13 cheers 23:28:14 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:28:56 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has joined #lisp 23:31:09 mpun1 [~user@pool-96-241-113-73.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:47 Guthur: but see tfeb's conduits systems for, among other things, per-package aliases. 23:34:25 -!- jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:35:20 seems to be non-portable, though that is not necessarily a killer for me, as long as it works with SBCL 23:35:34 pinterface: cheers all the same 23:35:40 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:36:19 Yeah. I don't know how well it works (if at all), just saying it's out there and might be of interest. :) 23:38:03 pferor`` [~user@122.Red-2-137-179.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:08 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:39:25 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 23:39:53 -!- pferor` [~user@31.Red-2-136-183.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:40:12 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:12 borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:42 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:44:53 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:45:26 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has joined #lisp 23:48:12 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 23:50:02 -!- mpun1 [~user@pool-96-241-113-73.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 23:51:38 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:55:22 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:58:43 -!- ThomasH [4b1349ad@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Quit: Page closed]