00:01:48 gkeith_glaptop_ [~gkeith@c-66-30-3-183.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:39 luis: at the moment about the only thing you can do to make a library Manifest friendly is to make sure there are doc strings for all uses of exported symbols. 00:06:49 You should also check that you don't use the symbol for some public uses and some private ones. For instance in Toot there was a condition toot-error and also a function of the same that was used internally to signal that error. I changed the name of the function since it was not intended to be used outside of toot. 00:09:00 felideon: if you can grab the github version of Manifest, can you let me know if the fix I pushed helps Allegro too? 00:09:35 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:09:47 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:10:55 -!- SsvRrwQ [~user@50.92.212.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:12:00 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@rrcs-24-213-164-222.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: RomyEatsDrupal] 00:17:27 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:21:26 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:23:55 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.111.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:24:52 jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126368 00:25:58 Xach: didn't know about l1sp.org until now. It's great! 00:28:25 Shaftoe: It's good if you know the exact name of what you want to lookup and know a bit about the simple URL scheme used. However I found it doesn't exactly anticipate your needs if you only have a fuzzy idea of what you're searching, or if you want a reference that isn't exactly a traditional symbol/macro/function/section... 00:29:09 Hexstream: given that I had nothing before, this is quite an improvement for me =) 00:29:23 Shaftoe: Slime has C-c C-d h. 00:29:28 johnstorey [~johnstore@12.208.167.194] has joined #lisp 00:29:33 -!- johnstorey [~johnstore@12.208.167.194] has quit [Quit: Nodding off now.] 00:29:48 And C-c C-d ~. That should really be incorporated into C-c C-d h but let's not go there. 00:29:53 it does, but that takes me to CLHS. it's unaware of package stuff. Unless the C-c C-d h is different for you 00:30:21 "Package stuff"?... You mean the non-clhs stuff that l1sp.org also does? 00:30:44 Hexstream: yeah. e.g. "post-parameters". Takes you to hunchentoot doc site. 00:30:54 Hexstream: previously would google for that stuff first. 00:31:09 Anyways, I'm just saying kudos to Xach =) 00:31:25 Shaftoe: Ok, well, in my opinion we don't yet have a way to search the CLHS that's remotely sensible. 00:31:35 (I've decided to work on that!) 00:31:41 Hexstream: no objection there. 00:32:44 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:33:47 Basically the current state of the art of CLHS search is popping up in #lisp and asking a question. That seems inefficient, which isn't a huge problem, but most importantly I'm thinking that for every newbie that comes here to ask a "trivial" question, there are many more that try on their own and might stumble upon actually obsolete operators and stuff and get frustrated and just give up... 00:34:47 I have many ideas, but one of them is that if you search for "filter", you should get shown REMOVE and variants, DELETE and variants, etc... 00:34:48 hah. exactly 00:34:54 I feel crappy about doing that too =) 00:35:17 And if you search for SETQ, that should tell you to just use SETF. And for multiple-value-setq, it should tell you to use SETF VALUES. 00:35:28 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:26 And if you search for "redirect", it should tell you how to temporarily redirect a stream with (let ((*standard-output* wherever))), and link to the lisptip for make-concatenated-stream. 00:37:47 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:37:55 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.12.61] has joined #lisp 00:38:07 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [~gkeith@c-66-30-3-183.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:39:08 And if you search for "socket", it should tell you that CL doesn't specify sockets, but most implementations have such support and usocket and iolib are the recommended and widely used options. 00:39:55 Sounds challenging. 00:40:27 Hexstream: thanks, I already hacked something inefficient up with remove-if 00:40:47 Xach: I don't think so. All that's needed is a sufficient amount of knowledge, of fed-upness with the current situation, of motivation and of patience. I believe I have all those qualities ;P 00:42:00 Guest67938 [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:03 -!- Guest67938 [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:42:13 Hexstream: free time is also a requirement. =) 00:42:15 I don't mind lovingly hand-crafting the lion's share. There are only 978 symbols. Plus the sections and the glossary and the dictionaries and the X3J13 issues and the figures and a bunch of other stuff.... 00:42:19 Shaftoe: I have that. 00:42:26 lucky man 00:42:48 anyhoo, off to "real life" toodles. 00:45:45 Hexstream: there is a limited set of target symbols but it's not clear how to limit the misconceived terms from which they're mapped. 00:48:11 Xach: Should be hard to do a comprehensive mapping, but doing a partial, useful mapping shouldn't be too hard I think... I think one nice systematic approach would be, for instance, to take all the functions defined in whatever Scheme standards, make a "linear scan" of all the operators manually, and see to what CL functions/operators/idioms they map. 00:48:14 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:54 And if, for instance, someone searches for "call/cc", then it could say that CL doesn't have an equivalent, but look at unwind-protect, block, return-from, etc. The non-local exit stuff. 00:49:15 crassus [~crassus@unaffiliated/crassus] has joined #lisp 00:49:50 I have lost all semblance of free-time since looking at making lisp bindings for a GUI, noticing that most GUIs are written in C++ and C++ is no fun via FFI which led me down to looking at improving calling C++ libraries from dynamic languages with different object models, which led me down to parsing C++... 00:50:40 There could be a "search result" you can click on to submit a "My query X should have shown Y but didn't." complaint. (Or "My query X didn't return something useful so I don't know what I'm really looking for...") 00:50:52 I haven't decided how far I'm going to go before I go "meh I'll just keep on using ltk" 00:52:18 Hexstream: What have you done so far? 00:53:35 Xach: Not much, I had the idea recently and just thought about it pretty intensely for a few days. 00:53:40 Hexstream: the lambda works fine now, it's sweet! 00:54:15 I must say, I have to thank some retarded #lisp troll from a few weeks ago. 00:54:43 Hexstream: i also didn't comment on what i didn't like about funcallf, basically i expected (funcallf #'1+ bar) to be expanded to (setf bar (1+ bar)). but it uses something more generic. 00:55:06 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:55:12 Don't be so hard on yourself. 00:55:19 He posted a link which crashed my Firefox and stumpwm, so I had to restart, and then I went to open Firefox again, knowing that usually it asks me if I want to "restore all tabs" or not after a crash, but it reopened the shitfest again, and crashed my computer again... 00:55:55 Hexstream: and on-topic for this discussion. you could add a bot here, making it easy for users to copy/paste the question which a user had and the symbols/libraries which fulfilled the question. that could enrich your system (statistically seeing which words occurred, ...) 00:56:56 So, I decided to ditch Firefox, and try Chrome, and that worked nicely. One thing led to another, and I tried some "learn japanese kana" app, which led me to explore the Chrome APIs, and I saw that making an "omnibox" search plugin is extremely easy... So I had the idea of making a super smart kickass search extension. 01:01:03 Ok, I just had a nice idea. Maybe I could search the #lisp logs since the beginning of time with "clhs" as a search string, and see just before if there was some confused newb asking a question. So that could reveal things like "clhs find was preceded by someone looking for 'how to extract an element from a list'" or something. 01:01:56 Hexstream: you could perform a search on that. i think one of the techniques was called latent dirichlet allocation, but i kind-of forgot. i should be able to find it again. 01:02:03 Hexstream: it's basic text mining 01:02:52 madnificent: I was thinking of searching for clhs mechanically and doing the "associate query with resulting answer" part manually. Maybe I'm just vastly underestimating how much time that would take. 01:03:06 Hexstream: you can find the keywords you're interesting in by scanning all projects in quicklisp and all exported symbols from them. then you know the keywords to search for in the logs. whatever comes before mentions of them, is related to that keyword... 01:03:55 Hexstream: your manual efforts may well be vastly superior, but it may require much time to be spent on it. plus, you kind-of need to be an expert on everything to know what relates to what. 01:04:17 *madnificent* probably overestimates the results of the text-mining 01:05:26 I want to concentrate on making a really great job pretty much just in the scope of CLHS, at least at first. Since it's set in stone it's much easier to make a comprehensive job, and when I'm "done", I'm done. I'd have a few "beyond ANSI" stuff like for "socket", but I'm not really interested in making it easy to search the whole CL ecosystem for now, that seems like a much tougher problem and can't be done manually. 01:05:57 madnificent: I'm kind-of a CLHS expert :) 01:06:47 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-62-163.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:06:54 wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has joined #lisp 01:06:55 your manual efforts might be vastly superior to the results from mining. try a piece of the CLHS and see how long it takes, perhaps? 01:07:17 madnificent: In the next version of place-utils FUNCALLF will be defined as just (place-utils:define-modify-macro funcallf (function &place arg-place &rest other-args) funcall) 01:07:47 -!- crassus [~crassus@unaffiliated/crassus] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:08:11 Hexstream: which will in turn expand to what i expected, right? 01:08:32 Hexstream: also, the fact that i'm nagging about the expansion implies that i like the library! 01:09:08 madnificent: Yeah, your certainly my most interested user. 01:09:58 Anyway, at least conceptually place-utils:define-modify-macro expands into pretty much the same thing as cl:define-modify-macro would expand into. 01:10:27 coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:28 -!- coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:10:28 coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 01:11:00 Well, will expand, because I'm in the process of implementing it. Implementing new kinds of lambda-lists is unnecessarily painful, that's another problem I'd like to fix... Damnit, there's so many things I want to fix. 01:11:16 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:19 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-015.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:11:27 lambda-lists, declarations, LOOP, FORMAT, LET... 01:12:15 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-29-103.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:12:29 generic functions (variadic multidispatch). Oh, and there's this vague idea for "ported-generic-functions" I had, which would alleviate some of the need for #+conditionals (inspired by Xach ECLM notes). 01:12:55 also, i don't know if you think this belongs in place-utils, but i noticed i needed an incf which takes a default value if the place was not a number (in my case nil). thus (let ((x nil)) (ensured-incf x 1 0) x) yields 1. you may want to consider adding that somewhere as well (in my exact case it was (ensured-incf (getf foo list) 1 1) to count elements of something. 01:14:05 madnificent: I need to revivify gigabot. He had that capability. 01:14:17 Too bad I'm supposed to be working on writing books, not hacking Lisp. 01:14:21 gigamonkey: what capability? adding information strings 01:14:47 Yeah. You could teach it things. 01:14:52 Hexstream: if you can get the documentation system working, that would likely contain the most gain for the lisp community. i don't know what the most fun is. 01:15:09 gigamonkey: which books are you writing now? 01:15:11 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:15:16 gigamonkey: your screencast was nice btw, i liked it. 01:15:46 And the way it worked was pretty amenable to teaching it things like, "If someone asks about "pair?" tell them about "consp". 01:15:48 madnificent: thanks. 01:15:59 madnificent: Yes, CLHS Smart Search is my new #1 priority. That one will be pretty hard to displaced (since a number of months my so-called "priorities" have been fairly volatile). 01:16:02 I'm currently working on a proposal for a book about kids and computers aimed at parents. 01:16:07 to displace* 01:16:23 Well, I'm still taking time to finish the next version of place-utils first. 01:17:44 gigamonkey: how kids should be thought to use the computer, or something differently? it's different than the PCL :) 01:18:18 Hexstream, gigamonkey: the bot and the dictionary could likely hook into each other, no? 01:18:25 -!- p8m_ [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:18:33 My current thinking is to focus on how kids should and should not be encouraged to use computers. 01:18:59 I.e. there are lots of ways folks want kids to use computers that are just dumb. And then there are a few good ways. 01:19:15 madnificent: Let's not put the cart before the horse. 01:20:02 gigamonkey: it's not bad that someone takes the time to think about it thoroughly and writes down in a concise manner what makes sense and what doesn't. it could be something that selles relatively well. 01:20:06 *akovalenko* is going to eventually [ab]use PCL as if it were such a book 01:20:07 s/well/good/ 01:20:21 Let's see if I can deliver first. So far, empirically, I'm good at talking about cool stuff I want to do but not very good at delivering... (Yeah, maybe I'm being too hard on myself Xach.) 01:20:25 Hexstream: i'm just dreaming :) 01:21:18 Hexstream: don't forget to report to us with a progress bar containing the amount of the CLHS which was indexed! that gives both you and us an insight, and it may be motivating :) 01:21:24 p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has joined #lisp 01:22:48 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:22:55 DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@75-163-225-197.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:23 madnificent: (define-modify-macro ensure-incf (&optional (delta 1) if-not-number) ensure-incf-helper) (defun ensure-incf-helper (old delta if-not-number) (cond ((numberp old) (+ old delta)) (if-not-number (+ if-not-number delta)) (t (error "~S is not a number." old)))) 01:23:40 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:24:14 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-212-212.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24:39 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:25:35 So, the plan is, I'll just code the plugin in raw HTML and javascript directly. Which is something I hate, so I'll put as much of the smartness as possible in tables that I will generate with a library "clhs-db" library I'll make which will have an in-memory semantic representation of part of the CLHS... 01:28:03 Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:06 I think the hard and tedious part will be extracting the info from the CLHS. The "smart" part of "smart search" should be comparatively easy. (I kinda wonder, when Kent Pitman went through the trouble of generating the CLHS, I think he had such an in-memory representation, couldn't he have dumped much more easily accessible information than just the stuff in HyperSpec/Data?...) 01:28:40 For example a list of all figures would have been nice. And a list of all sections. Sure, it's possible to extract it manually or automatically from the CLHS, but... :( 01:29:46 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 01:32:39 Oh, and there's also the list of all LOOP keywords and FORMAT directives, and if you search for PPRINT-LOGICAL-BLOCK it should show you the corresponding FORMAT directive (whatever it is ;P). And it could have some "idioms", like if you query for "mapplist" it could show you "(loop :for (key value) :in plist :by #'cddr :do your code here)" 01:34:22 pnathan [~Adium@98.145.116.190] has joined #lisp 01:35:25 hexstream: Have you noted the legal restrictions upon the CLHS? 01:35:44 Zhivago: I re-read them many times. 01:35:59 Zhivago: What about it? 01:37:18 How are you avoiding producing a derivative work? 01:37:33 Zhivago: So far as I understand, LispWorks has copyright on the specific HTML representation of the CL standard, not the standard itself. 01:38:04 Zhivago: Yeah, I asked myself that question, I'm no lawyer but I don't think it will be a problem if I'm careful. 01:38:32 An interesting theory. 01:38:58 Zhivago: I'm not trying to rip-off the CLHS or piss of LispWorks or anything, just trying to make the CLHS more useful for all parties involved. 01:39:24 Legal rights must often be exercised to be retained; be careful. 01:40:42 Zhivago: It would be a shame if great technical progress was inhibited in the name of vague fears. 01:41:32 "Said Dr Kevorkian". 01:42:16 Interesting. Just watching the MANIFEST screencast. I realised that I tried this thing already a week or so ago when it was shipped with QL 01:42:45 loke: deja vu! 01:42:52 I had been mispronouncing "seibel" as "seebel" all along! 01:42:53 I just wish it made the class names into links, allowing me to drill down and click on a class and then see all its accessors for example 01:43:13 Hexstream: I was always reading it as "Siebel" myself :-) 01:43:27 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:43:59 loke: it could happen! 01:44:11 gigamonkey: how do you distinguish "generic functions" from "slot ers"? 01:44:21 *Xach* supposes, again, he could just read the code 01:44:22 gigamonkey: that would be very nice :-) 01:44:23 Xach: I forget. Yeah. 01:44:32 "Heuristically" I bet. 01:44:37 it also seems to mix up all slot accessors for all classes in the same list? 01:45:03 loke: at the moment yes. At the moment its totally symbol centric. 01:45:21 Other organizations will be possible once I write a bit more introspection code. 01:45:30 loke: There are many different mutually exclusive way to group the data. 01:46:19 Hexstream: actually, I depend on whether the methods are standard-reader-method or standard-writer-methods 01:46:29 Which is why Manifest depends on Closer MOP 01:46:56 gigamonkey: I know, but that's kinda heuristic I think... But maybe I need to think some more. 01:46:59 crassus [~crassus@unaffiliated/crassus] has joined #lisp 01:47:16 Hexstream: does it support some kind of markup in the docstrings? 01:47:29 Hum... Manifest documents generic-functions, not methods, right?... 01:47:30 it would be neat to support something like the Javadoc {@ ... } tags 01:47:46 loke: atdoc has something like that 01:47:49 loke: Those questions are best addressed to gigamonkey... 01:48:02 Hexstream: I know 01:48:12 Hexstream: I directed to the wrng person 01:48:47 loke: my idea is that there will be a separate way to specify stuff to Manifest about the package including such things as how docstrings should be interpreted. 01:49:03 So the default might just be plain text with options for Markup, Markdown, HTML, etc. 01:49:07 gigamonkey: What do you do if a generic-function has a standard-reader-method overridden by a normal primary method in a subclass?... Or something... Hum.... 01:49:13 gigamonkey: very neat 01:49:51 Then would that be considered a "slot accessor generic function" still? 01:50:05 gigamonkey: What was your reasons for building a stripped-down version of hunchentoot? Was there some specific issues you had with the full version? 01:51:02 Hexstream: kilon was online yesterday, he was a lawyer iirc. perhaps he wouldn't mind looking at it and make sure. 01:51:14 Well, myself, I remember using Hunchentoot and thinking there was just way too much unnecessary cruft getting in the way... 01:51:26 loke: I couldn't understand it. ;-) 01:51:36 Anyway, I've gotta run and eat dinner. If you're around later I can tell you more. 01:51:38 gigamonkey: :-) 01:51:45 Or I'll blog about it one of these days and get back in Xach's good graces. 01:52:03 *loke* is heading out on the mountain bike shortly. :-) 01:52:41 It hasn't rained for several days! Perhaps this ride won't look like this: https://plus.google.com/115209488640908180409/posts/NVxyFPBsN16 01:53:42 -!- crassus [~crassus@unaffiliated/crassus] has left #lisp 01:54:08 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:54:14 madnificent: There are already a few different services indexing or otherwise making it easier to search the CLHS. I'll do basically the same thing, except I'll do a much better job. I don't see how that could be objectionable. 01:54:19 Hmm, MANIFEST really needs to display the argument lists for functions :-) 01:54:47 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@guestnet.franz.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:54:57 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.69] has joined #lisp 01:55:44 loke: Unfortunately that's not portably accessible, so it's a bit more work. 01:56:47 -!- zmv [~zmv@186.204.122.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:56:59 Hexstream: Yeah, I know. Someone should build TRIVIAL-INTROSPECTION or something :-) 01:57:15 Maybe just trivial-arglists. 01:57:20 yeah 01:57:25 "introspection" is fairly wide. 01:57:34 Xach: ping 01:58:36 pnathan: Ahoy. I saw your updates. I have some suggestions. 01:59:10 Shoot 01:59:43 Always put * around special variables 01:59:54 Hexstream: I would presume most other lisps have something similar to SB-INTROSPECT, yes? 02:00:05 loke: I have no idea. 02:00:15 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-224-227.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:00:57 -!- vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-151-171.dsl.sil.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:01:31 pnathan: building up a string through repeated concatenation is a waste; better to use something like with-output-to-string or computing the output size and using REPLACE. or you could use (apply 'concatenate 'string strings) 02:01:40 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 02:02:12 Xach: the really- low-level approach using VECTOR-PUSH-EXTEND should be fairly efficient too, right? 02:02:35 loke: that doesn't seem very low to me 02:02:48 Xach: isn't that what WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING uses? 02:02:58 loke: Doesn't seem especially likely to me. 02:03:04 fair enough 02:03:11 I'm definitely not an expert :-) 02:03:26 Ahh, I've been pondering how to get a non-loopy concatenation going without a macro. 02:03:30 Thanks. 02:04:15 pnathan: also, http-request takes an alist of parameters. 02:04:34 Hum. I always thought that WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING was allocating an adjustable vector and was using, pretty much, VECTOR-PUSH-EXTEND or a close equivalent... 02:05:10 pnathan: and using lists as data structures without naming the accessors (something better than first, second, etc) makes code hard to read. 02:05:45 describing the structure in the docstring is not as good as giving good names 02:06:57 Hexstream: that's ehat SBCL does 02:07:20 Hexstream: I just checked. It uses STRING-STREAM, which has a adjustable string as backend 02:07:23 Mmm. Any other comments? 02:07:44 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:08:02 Xach: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/241 02:08:17 oh no. wait 02:08:20 pnathan: that reduce/strcat thing to make a comma-separated list is something i'd do with format instead. 02:08:22 it only kinda does that 02:08:39 Why? 02:09:00 It's easier to read. 02:10:03 (format nil "~{~A~^, ~}" list) is idiomatic. 02:10:45 Faster? Slower? 02:10:55 pnathan: Idiomatic. 02:10:58 Faster to read. 02:11:05 I don't know if it's faster or slower. 02:11:26 Presumably that's equivalent to (format nil (formatter "~{~A~^, ~}") list) 02:11:52 I tend to have a evil eye at change for the sake of idiom. if there's no technical reason to prefer one or the other... 02:13:03 The technical reason is it's hard for a CL programmer to read your code. 02:13:22 It looks like the first thing a novice thought up to solve the problem. 02:13:46 Which, in context, is obviously the case. 02:14:30 I'm still working on the "does better or worse", besides idiom. =) 02:15:13 -!- blandest [~user@79.112.40.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:19 Xach: I'm kinda eager to know if you have the intention of including the CLHS in Quicklisp as requested in the Issue I just posted. Or maybe there are some objections I didn't think of. 02:15:23 Well, I like to help with code I can read, and it's a disincentive to further help if you don't think my ease of reading is important enough to make minor changes. 02:15:33 Hexstream: No, I don't have any intention of doing that. 02:15:43 Xach: Why is that? 02:15:55 It's not Common Lisp code that can be loaded with ASDF. 02:16:36 Now, if you wrote a library that, as part of loading, downloaded the CLHS somewhere, I would think about adding that. 02:17:32 There's something similar with some of the unicode data files that are part of cl-l10n or cl-i18n or one of those. 02:18:05 cl-l10n-cldr 02:18:56 Xach: With all due respect, I thought the #1 priority of Quicklisp was being useful, not obeying arbitrary self-imposed restrictions. If you don't want to package libraries that don't have an ASDF system even if they could and should, that's a very fine policy. But why refrain from including something as universally useful as the CLHS just because it simply has no need for ASDF?... I don't really understand the reasoning. 02:19:26 *pnathan* prods code and studies formatter logic 02:20:46 Hexstream: I don't think it's such a pressing universal good that it warrants setting up a special case. 02:20:51 It could have an ASDF system that declares no dependencies nor files, I guess. I think there's even :static "HyperSpec-7-0.tar.gz" 02:21:01 No special case needed. 02:21:13 Well, then make something like that, and I'll think about it. 02:21:15 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 02:21:36 Xach: Ok. 02:21:43 loke: the main reason I started on Toot was because Hunchentoot had been flaking out very sporadically on my Code Quarterly site and when I tried to look at the code it seemed way more complicated than it needed to be for the use I was making of it. 02:21:47 You do specialize in making things that nobody wants. 02:22:19 So I started stripping it down. 02:22:52 Quicklisp is a library manager, no? CLHS may belong in a (book) library, but it's not itself a (code) library. 02:22:54 Xach: You do specialize in tackling just for the fun of it. 02:23:48 jacius: I could see it expanding to get other useful things, but the clhs is not near the top of my list at the moment. 02:23:57 loke: see also http://paste.lisp.org/display/126369 02:24:20 *Xach* has never installed the clhs locally, but might do it if ever he found himself doing offline hacking for an extended period of time 02:24:23 Seems like the CLHS is pretty readily available already. 02:24:43 vrook [~girondist@c-24-91-141-42.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:57 The gold standard of "availability" is being in Quicklisp. 02:25:11 I do want to be able to make library documentation more easily available somehow, so maybe when that happens, the clhs will be a natural part. 02:28:23 ThomasH [4b1349ad@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 02:28:30 Full documentation available for the lisp hacking on the flight to japan 02:28:41 Xach: you going?! 02:29:01 Anything could happen! 02:29:14 I don't think it is likely, though. 02:29:22 I'll laugh if the CLHS gets in the Quicklisp top 100 downloads ;P "Nobody wants", ha! 02:30:23 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.60.50] has joined #lisp 02:30:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.60.50] has quit [Changing host] 02:30:23 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 02:30:25 *Xach* was surprised cxml wasn't in the top 50, since he uses it a lot 02:30:34 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:30:49 Xach: It's almost like your tastes aren't universal. 02:31:03 Don't I know it. 02:31:13 *Xach* thought everyone got quicklisp news from twitter until the survey 02:32:18 gigamonkey: After a certain number of views, you should be able to cash in on your youtube fame 02:34:35 Heh. I've still only got 1/10th the views of your Quicklisp screencast. 02:34:46 I will ASCEND! But now it's time to lie down in bed. 02:34:48 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 02:34:59 If I had a nickle for every view ... I'd be able to buy a latte. 02:35:28 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:35:40 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 02:36:53 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B69C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:37:27 *pinterface* has a local copy of the CLHS, patched for assorted typos, but always ends up using the online version anyway. 02:38:32 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B63B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:49 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:39:14 I have a searchable local copy, but always end up using the clhs command on yub nub because I'm already in the browser. That would be perfect if the responses for symbol not found weren't so rude. They hurt my feelings. 02:40:43 You're no pfdietz, that's for sure! 02:42:55 *ThomasH* sheds a tear 02:45:13 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:45:29 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:46:05 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:47:25 Don't feel too bad. Not even pfdietz is a pfdietz any more :( 02:49:34 gigamonkey: did you use the built-in mic for your screencast? 02:49:49 it sounds pretty good 02:53:06 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:58:04 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:59:10 pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.reader link is borked. reader.lisp was not found. 03:00:28 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 03:01:36 pjb: And quickloading :com.informatimago.common-lisp signals an error in com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.tea:tea-decipher. 03:02:32 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.69] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.91.1] 03:02:55 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:00 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03:00 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:03:08 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:10 ThomasH: in what CL? 03:03:12 LW? 03:03:20 Xach: Yes. 03:03:23 On Winders 03:03:31 gotcha. works ok on sbcl on mac/linux. 03:04:57 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:08:26 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.69] has joined #lisp 03:09:43 So, PJB implemented a full reader, returns objects. I was looking for something that would simply verify that all of the forms were valid. I would like to use the reader without actually generating the objects. 03:09:54 Xach: Made changes. 03:10:27 Ok, it is added 03:11:49 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:12:18 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:38 What's your policy on pulling updates - do you pull from master? 03:14:11 Xach: yeah, built in mic. 03:14:33 pnathan: yes, unless there's something better from which to pull 03:14:56 Thanks. :) 03:16:34 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 03:18:16 gko [~gko@27.241.196.175] has joined #lisp 03:18:44 teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has joined #lisp 03:22:41 -!- pizdets [~pizdets@cpe-74-64-109-53.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:26:11 Thomas: What constitutes a valid form? 03:28:38 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f71ec92.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:29:03 dys [~andreas@krlh-d9be642b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:10 Zhivago: Maybe form is the wrong terminology. Basically, I'd like to apply the reader algorithm in 2.2 of the hyperspec without actually generating objects. I'd like to have something like nxml that indicates whether or not the buffer is valid. 03:30:31 The sexp in the buffer are all valid. 03:32:47 Why do you care about producing some garbage? 03:33:43 nowl [~nowl@pool-72-93-216-241.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:17 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:36:46 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 03:39:15 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Client Quit] 03:40:51 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 03:42:19 -!- nowl [~nowl@pool-72-93-216-241.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:46:40 Zhivago: I want a structured editor. If the structure of the sexp are tracked in the buffer, it opens up some possibilities for interacting with the code in a more efficient manner. 03:48:38 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:49:13 An editor that cannot handle invalid content is very cumbersome to use. 03:49:46 It's likely that you'll need to write your own parsers for this purpose, so that you can handle partial content as it is being entered. 03:52:50 Yes. That is what I'm running into. NXML handles invalid content just fine. It's useful to have the immediate feedback and I think something similar for lisp would be handy. Plus, if you have an abstract representation of of the sexp in the buffer, I think there may be interesting things you can do with it. 03:53:11 -!- coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Quit: Heaven isnt a place, Bartleby, it's being with people who love you.] 03:53:11 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:53:33 You might also want to consider the horrors that the readtable inflicts upon your plan. 03:54:12 Zhivago: Not yet. I'll burn that bridge when/if I get to it. 03:55:12 Readtables were an expedient hack back in the dark ages ... 03:56:33 johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-99-35-50-23.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:23 But they're a bit embarassing these days. 03:57:48 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 04:00:35 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.75.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:01:06 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.75.234] has joined #lisp 04:01:37 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 04:03:39 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-66.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:27 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:06:21 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 04:07:38 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@cpe-74-64-109-53.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:08:46 ThomasH: are you familiar with paredit? 04:09:14 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Client Quit] 04:09:55 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 04:10:31 -!- chenbing [~user@115.192.215.143] has left #lisp 04:11:14 Ralith: More so than I care to be. I use the LW IDE and porting paredit is not straight forward because there is no parse-partial-sexp. Every once in a while I need a diversion so revisit the issue. And then descend down the rabbit hole of parsing the buffer. 04:11:51 ThomasH: paredit solves this problem by not allowing structurally invalid sexps to be entered in the first place. 04:12:04 sexp structure is very easy to maintain. 04:12:07 chenbing [~user@115.192.215.143] has joined #lisp 04:12:19 realtime semantics-checking would be much more interesting a project 04:12:37 but still kind of unnecessary, given that a simple C-c C-c achieves the same 04:12:57 Ralith: Don't you run into cases where having temporarily invalid structure would help when switching things around and paredit just annoys you? 04:13:00 Don't sell your users short, all you have to do is put a comment at the beginning of a line, delete some parens, remove the comment and voila! Invalid sexp. 04:13:04 drdo: nope. 04:13:27 I only tried paredit for like half an hour, maybe i'll give it another shot 04:13:40 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-emjtwpyxdesiedon] has joined #lisp 04:14:03 that used to happen to me, but then I read the paredit docs and realized that there's a command to do what I want more quickly and reliably anyway 04:14:10 I guess on the bright side, my digging into the LW documentation exposed some commands for approximating a cheap, crapping, version of paredit. 04:14:22 With some key bindings. 04:14:25 *Using* 04:15:11 ThomasH: an actively hostile user could simply disable paredit. 04:21:56 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:26:25 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:27:03 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.46] has joined #lisp 04:27:06 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 04:27:56 lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has joined #lisp 04:29:22 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has left #lisp 04:32:22 -!- lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:42:57 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #lisp 04:47:11 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:50:59 [mark] [~mark@unaffiliated/mark/x-957811] has joined #lisp 04:51:58 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-83.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:52:14 [[mark]] [~mark@unaffiliated/mark/x-957811] has joined #lisp 04:52:27 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Quit: all we are saying; is give peace a chance.] 04:52:30 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.147.52] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:52:37 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:53:08 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA1031.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:53:27 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 04:53:34 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:55:17 -!- [mark] [~mark@unaffiliated/mark/x-957811] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:59:45 (defmethod printa (x metalwork)...) not works ,but (defmethod printa (x (y metalwork)) works ? how to a single argument class-specified? where metalwork is a class.(defmethod printa ((x metalwork)) is also error 05:00:28 what's PRINTA? 05:01:48 (defmethod printa (x metalwork) 05:01:48 (princ "I am metalwork")) just a exmaple for learning 05:01:56 chenbing: the last one you said should work. (defmethod printa ((x metalwork)) ... ) 05:02:11 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.102] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 05:02:13 jacius: it wouldn't work after what chenbing just pasted 05:02:19 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 05:02:33 all methods of a generic function should have the same number of required and optional parameters 05:03:13 chenbing: what you just pasted is a method with two parameters, none of which is specialized 05:03:39 if you wanted to make a single parameter, first, do (fmakunbound 'printa), then (defmethod printa ((x metalwork)) (print x)) 05:03:42 But if he restarted lisp (or undefined all the methods, which is harder), the last one should work 05:04:02 oh generic function has a context 05:04:17 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0477.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 05:04:18 generic functions have no context, whatever it is 05:05:17 bah, a new lisptip, time for me to answer that challenge with a new slime-tip 05:07:03 SlayersZ [~SlayersZ@70.65.233.0] has joined #lisp 05:07:17 yo 05:07:32 I understand .all the generic functions must apply same argument numbers.or you fmakunbound ,restart slime 05:08:13 don't restart, just fmakunbound 05:08:15 ganjahtronic [~ganjahtro@189.243.220.125] has joined #lisp 05:08:25 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:08:54 Restart is unnecessary if you do fmakunbound. I didn't know about fmakunbound. 05:09:45 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 05:10:51 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:11:26 SBCL should really start providing a restart to replace non-congruent generic functions 05:11:39 a restart as in "debugger restart", not lisp restart 05:12:31 That would be nice 05:12:49 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:13:25 I also wish that the Unicode support in SBCL was nicer... 05:13:36 (or at least, the documentation on it) 05:13:55 why do you need documentation for it? 05:14:07 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:14:14 I wasn't quite sure how it worked 05:14:23 why do you need to know that? 05:14:26 if I could just input IPA willy-nilly, or not 05:14:35 Oh, I'm working on a sound change applier 05:15:05 but you don't need to know _how_ SBCL works, do you? 05:15:32 I do need to know how to input unicode 05:16:12 what do you mean by input? SBCL doesn't arrange input, that's what your windowing system does 05:16:32 it just accepts any valid unicode characters you feed it 05:17:20 yates [c05e5c0e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.94.92.14] has joined #lisp 05:17:29 is there a way to combine two lists L(1,:) and L(2,:) of the same length into something like ( (L(1,1) . L(2,1)) (L(1,2) . L(2,2)) ...) ? 05:17:58 yates: that's no lisp 05:18:10 yates: lookup MAPCAR and LIST. Combine. 05:18:14 Possibly you are looking for the ZIP function. 05:18:40 stassats: i'm concocting my own syntax - hope you see my intent 05:18:47 gigamonkey: will do 05:18:52 pnathan: i'll look 05:19:10 yates: i don't see it, this channel is about lisp, so please use lisp to ask questions about lisp 05:21:09 [[[mark]]] [~mark@175.141.252.126] has joined #lisp 05:21:18 -!- [[[mark]]] is now known as [mark] 05:21:26 -!- [mark] [~mark@175.141.252.126] has quit [Changing host] 05:21:26 [mark] [~mark@unaffiliated/mark/x-957811] has joined #lisp 05:21:32 does lisp actually have reasonable syntax for "the second element in list L"? 05:21:44 (second L) 05:21:54 nth? 05:22:02 (nth 2 LIST) 05:22:04 ? 05:22:08 or is that elisp 05:22:24 No, that's Common Lisp too. 05:22:31 (second list), (nth 2 list), (elt list 2), (cadr list) 05:22:32 Though none of those are "syntax". 05:22:43 The question is, what do you consider 'reasonable' ? :) 05:22:48 yeah :( 05:22:54 CADR, of coure 05:22:56 course 05:23:15 pnathan: a kahlua and milk on a warm, sunny beach 05:23:22 (destructuring-bind (one two . rest) list two) 05:23:37 heh 05:23:51 gigamonkey: thanks man! 05:23:51 s/2/1/, actually 05:24:17 -!- ThomasH [4b1349ad@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 05:24:26 ,destructuring-bind 05:24:27 -!- [[mark]] [~mark@unaffiliated/mark/x-957811] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:24:54 (apply (lambda (one two &rest rest)) list) 05:27:32 gigamonkey: You forgot to return two 05:28:49 good catch, now i'll be able to really use this construct 05:30:04 Always glad to further the cause of great lisp code 05:30:32 common lisp tips is back? Joy! 05:30:40 now we'll just wait until Xach write a lisp tip about it 05:32:10 gigamonkey: is (apply (lambda (one two &rest rest)) list) a solution to my question? i don't see it 05:32:15 -!- wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:32:39 see what you did? somebody actually thought it's real! 05:33:08 wait... it's not real? 05:33:18 It's a real solution if you return two. A silly solution, but real. 05:34:25 wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has joined #lisp 05:34:33 (apply (lambda (one two &rest rest) two) list) 05:34:43 yates: ^ there ya go, all your troubles are solved 05:34:44 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-mybtjuvcqocrppwt] has joined #lisp 05:34:44 it's real as in you can run it, but no more 05:34:46 Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:53 (lambda (one two &rest rest)) is an anonymous function, right? 05:35:00 right 05:35:10 but i don't see any forms in the function 05:35:23 (one two &rest rest) are all parameters,right? 05:35:28 antifuchs [~foobar@50-0-91-119.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:30 jacius: just sprinkle some IGNOREs 05:35:32 Yeah, like I said, he forgot to return two 05:35:53 It's a really silly solution, though. Don't use it. It's a joke. 05:36:03 well, er. thanks 05:36:07 i'm not joking 05:36:10 -!- SlayersZ [~SlayersZ@70.65.233.0] has left #lisp 05:36:21 so, what do you really want to do? 05:36:32 -!- yates [c05e5c0e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.94.92.14] has quit [] 05:36:37 As stassats said, you can use #'second, #'nth, #'elt, or #'cadr to get the second item in a list 05:38:09 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-120-116.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:38:14 something like? (defun cartesian-product (list1 list2) (loop for a in list1 nconc (loop for b in list2 collect (cons a b)))) 05:38:24 (cartesian-product '(1 2) '(3 4)) => ((1 . 3) (1 . 4) (2 . 3) (2 . 4)) 05:38:36 i didn't really get what you was trying to say with thous Ls 05:38:38 those 05:38:51 s/was/were/ 05:38:58 It seems he didn't appreciate our sense of humour, and left 05:39:12 oh well 05:40:00 *homie* punches 64bit and slowly spoons the 32 away..... 05:40:13 lol 05:40:21 that's not funny at all 05:40:35 homie: But if you spoon the 32 out of 64, you'll be left with 32 again. 05:41:01 eeek, somethings gone wrong! 05:43:28 anyone here read Pierce's Types and Programming Languages? 05:43:42 or heard anything about? 05:44:32 It's the standard intro text for strongly typed programming languages. 05:47:57 I wish there were consistency to strong/weakly/static/dynamic 05:49:48 -!- akovalenko [~akovalenk@95.73.125.83] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.92.1] 05:49:58 I couldnn't think of a better word. :( 05:50:24 I consider Common Lisp strongly typed. 05:51:18 akovalenko [~akovalenk@95.73.125.83] has joined #lisp 05:54:58 Ralith: I tried once. 05:55:01 Didn't get very far. 05:58:07 alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-120-116.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:54 nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-240-100.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:02:53 el-maxo_ [~max@p5DE8F383.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:15 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5DE8F7F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:04:34 gigamonkey: why was that? 06:04:56 pnathan: so, you've read it? 06:05:15 Nah, I just hear it recommended in places like Lambda the Ultimate 06:05:35 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:06:01 I haven't had the gumption to delve into type theory yet. 06:06:11 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 06:10:17 a defmethod shouldn't use &rest? since obey same arguments numbers 06:10:56 methods can use &rest just fine. 06:11:09 same number of arguments applies to primary arguments 06:12:02 ...and I guess whatever &key, &optional, &rest you declared in the defgeneric, iirc. 06:15:02 If you declare &key if the defgeneric, you have to put it into the method signature, even if you don't specify any keys 06:20:11 or &rest 06:21:01 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:22:07 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-29.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:23:13 are &optionals in defgeneric also required in all defmethod forms? 06:23:18 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 06:23:23 of course 06:23:24 all of them 06:24:26 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-83.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:24:57 and not "also", &key and &rest parameters are not required, you just need either &key or &rest, or &key &allow-other-keys 06:24:58 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.46] has joined #lisp 06:27:47 -!- pnathan [~Adium@98.145.116.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:29:01 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:29:30 -!- gaidal [gaidal@59.42.113.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:29:51 gaidal [gaidal@113.119.24.90] has joined #lisp 06:36:43 -!- johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-99-35-50-23.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Nodding off now.] 06:36:47 Oddity [~Oddity@66.183.79.12] has joined #lisp 06:36:48 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@66.183.79.12] has quit [Changing host] 06:36:48 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 06:38:14 coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:14 -!- coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:38:14 coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 06:42:02 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 06:42:11 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:46:51 sacho [~sacho@46.10.7.30] has joined #lisp 06:48:54 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@50-0-91-119.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:54:09 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 06:54:57 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-15.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:55:17 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:57:37 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:01:01 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-66.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 07:01:42 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:07:15 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.46] has joined #lisp 07:08:27 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-15.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:08:39 -!- Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Cryotank2011] 07:14:40 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:15:42 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-154.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:16:31 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:18:24 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-49-252.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:13 BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.201.164.170] has joined #lisp 07:20:17 KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 07:20:23 -!- gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has quit [Quit: Hhhhheeeeeeellllllllpppppppppppppppppppppp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!] 07:22:00 sacho_ [~sacho@46.10.7.30] has joined #lisp 07:23:19 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:24:47 -!- sacho [~sacho@46.10.7.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:25:46 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 07:26:10 kennyd [~kennyd@178.160.50.251] has joined #lisp 07:26:13 stickycake [~stickycak@ool-ade56651.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:13 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@ool-ade56651.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:35 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@178.160.50.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:27:59 trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has joined #lisp 07:28:14 -!- trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:28:41 trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has joined #lisp 07:28:47 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:29:06 -!- trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:29:19 trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has joined #lisp 07:29:46 -!- trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:29:57 -!- sacho_ is now known as sacho 07:30:00 trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has joined #lisp 07:30:10 -!- trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:30:42 trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has joined #lisp 07:31:13 -!- trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:31:28 sacho_ [~sacho@46.10.7.30] has joined #lisp 07:31:33 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:31:47 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:31:58 trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has joined #lisp 07:32:03 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.187.36] has joined #lisp 07:32:37 -!- trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:33:08 trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has joined #lisp 07:33:20 -!- trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:33:34 trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has joined #lisp 07:34:04 -!- trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:34:07 -!- sacho [~sacho@46.10.7.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:34:22 good morning 07:34:44 hydo [~hydo@c-71-227-138-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:32 trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has joined #lisp 07:35:41 -!- trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:36:21 trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has joined #lisp 07:36:38 -!- trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:36:52 trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has joined #lisp 07:37:23 -!- trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:37:46 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-115-171-220.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:39:12 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:43:30 stickycake_ [~stickycak@ool-ade564b1.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:30 RomyEatsDrupal_ [~stickycak@ool-ade564b1.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:08 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.201.164.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:45:27 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@ool-ade56651.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:45:27 -!- stickycake [~stickycak@ool-ade56651.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:45:27 trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has joined #lisp 07:45:27 -!- RomyEatsDrupal_ is now known as RomyEatsDrupal 07:45:27 -!- stickycake_ is now known as stickycake 07:45:45 -!- trsh [~bellworts@178.160.50.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:47:21 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:49:49 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:50:02 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.75] has joined #lisp 07:50:02 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.75] has quit [Changing host] 07:50:02 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 07:50:12 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 07:51:47 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.187.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:52:11 meh. What's the proper way to load slime/contrib/swank-listener-hooks.lisp? 07:54:05 luis: (slime-require 'swank-listener-hooks) 07:54:21 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@ool-ade564b1.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:54:35 -!- stickycake [~stickycak@ool-ade564b1.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:54:42 stickycake [~stickycak@ool-ade564b1.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:42 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@ool-ade564b1.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:47 hypnocat [~hypnocat@unaffiliated/hypnocat] has joined #lisp 07:57:53 sacho__ [~sacho@46.10.7.30] has joined #lisp 07:58:46 stassats: thanks! 07:59:11 pon1980 [~pon@195-67-88-105.customer.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:59:49 man, getting CommonQt running on OSX was a PITA. 07:59:59 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:00:21 no-name- [~no-name@235.247.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 08:00:47 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@46.10.7.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:01:25 someone should totally put up a .zip with precompiled qt and smoke libraries 08:01:35 for windows, linux and macosx 08:02:07 well, I'm working on publishing instructions... for OSX. 08:03:22 but that's a good idea, yeah. 08:04:37 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:05:36 and put all the repositories of commonqt together and bless it as a release, and make Xach invent some thing for quicklisp to install foreign libraries 08:07:02 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 08:07:11 what repositories? 08:07:25 the official, mine and ivan4th 08:07:28 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:07:37 damn. which one should I have used on OSX? 08:07:39 and several branches in the official repository 08:07:54 did I just reimplement a bunch of OSX fixes? 08:08:03 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h153n1c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: add^_] 08:08:06 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.46] has joined #lisp 08:08:28 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 08:09:00 unlikely 08:09:56 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 08:10:00 let there be one more repository! 08:10:00 stassats: hmm, I can't find a repository of yours. 08:10:43 it's not on gitorious, https://github.com/stassats/commonqt 08:10:59 and https://github.com/ivan4th/commonqt 08:11:35 e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-ygxfjjrrpxvcgjuy] has joined #lisp 08:11:58 kennyd [~kennyd@46.188.235.180] has joined #lisp 08:12:20 i think my master is equal to gitorious master, but i have some unfinished branches 08:12:20 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@46.188.235.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:12:24 oh well, it's a mess 08:13:53 heh, yours doesn't fork from lichteblau's 08:14:09 that's pretty messy indeed. 08:14:41 xan_ [~xan@243.Red-88-1-40.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:37 you should just use the gitorious master, it's what quicklisp is using 08:15:57 that's what I started with, yeah. 08:15:58 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 08:16:30 but it needed a bit of hacking to get it going with the latest smoke and OSX. 08:16:51 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.111.6] has joined #lisp 08:17:26 i haven't been hacking on commonqt lately, because everything seems to work fine (the parts of qt i use, at least) 08:18:19 stassats: is it sane to run (qt-repl:start-gui-thread) then (qt-tutorial-14:main)? 08:18:32 ivan4th repository might be useful if you want to run phones 08:18:52 i've never used qt-repl 08:19:06 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:19:23 -!- vrook [~girondist@c-24-91-141-42.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:20:28 kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 08:21:02 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-60-238.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:21:02 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-60-238.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 08:21:02 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 08:21:09 trsh [~bellworts@46.188.235.180] has joined #lisp 08:21:45 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:21:50 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:22:03 -!- trsh [~bellworts@46.188.235.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:23:54 luis: i skimmed through repl-integration.lisp, seems ok, although if all you want is to run (qt-tutorial-14:main), you don't need qt-repl 08:24:02 trsh [~bellworts@46.188.235.180] has joined #lisp 08:24:04 morning 08:24:28 stassats: you do on OSX, because you have to run GUI stuff on the initial thread. 08:24:39 -!- trsh [~bellworts@46.188.235.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:24:49 ah, osx... 08:24:57 trsh [~bellworts@46.188.235.180] has joined #lisp 08:25:23 -!- trsh [~bellworts@46.188.235.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:25:42 does qt-repl help? 08:26:04 it does, after I hack it to interrupt the initial thread instead of creating a new one. ;-) 08:26:10 trsh [~bellworts@46.188.235.180] has joined #lisp 08:26:11 s/hack/hacked 08:26:18 that's what i thought 08:26:20 BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.197.243.54] has joined #lisp 08:26:32 -!- trsh [~bellworts@46.188.235.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:26:45 except I can only run the tutorial once 08:26:54 after I quit it, the repl hangs 08:27:31 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 08:27:52 or at least it gets fairly confused 08:28:22 it's a pretty boring tutorial, i wouldn't want to run it the second time 08:28:36 there's that. :) 08:30:29 stassats: somehow my slime-repl buffer looks like *inferior-lisp* now. 08:30:44 I've got * prompt instead of CL-USER> 08:31:29 kennyd [~kennyd@46.188.235.180] has joined #lisp 08:31:47 can you evaluate something in it? 08:31:47 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@46.188.235.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:31:53 yeah 08:32:22 this is strange, streams must have been messed up 08:32:40 H4ns [~user@p5DDBBF59.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:43 do you rebind *standard-output* and *standard-input*, perchance? 08:32:54 s/rebind/reset/ 08:33:07 or something else does that 08:33:21 start-gui-thread does something like that 08:33:59 indeed 08:35:53 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:37:46 msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has joined #lisp 08:38:48 I guess the (#_exec *qapp*) call in repl-integration.lisp returns after I run the tutorial and... something happens. 08:41:57 stassats: if I make it a (loop (#_exec *qapp*)) things seem to work, heh. 08:43:01 -!- stickycake [~stickycak@ool-ade564b1.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:43:02 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@ool-ade564b1.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:43:22 -!- DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@75-163-225-197.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: DaDaDosPrompt] 08:43:35 that'll have to do for today. 08:44:08 hi luis 08:45:46 i guess it expects *qapp* not to quit, setting (#_setQuitOnLastWindowClosed *qapp* nil), but it's quitting for some other reason 08:49:46 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:50:12 hey nikodemus 08:54:02 dys` [~andreas@krlh-5f71cd95.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:22 nikodemus: sorry about missing NEWS, test, and commit message on that :big-endian patch. :) 08:55:39 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:56:21 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 08:56:31 how do you test it? 08:57:27 oh, just that either is there, i thought something testing whether it's actually a big endian 08:57:32 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-d9be642b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:57:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:00:25 stassats: hmm, the tutorial's got a "Quit" button, and that's what I've been clicking. If I just close the window then MAIN hangs, possibly because of that (#_setQuitOnLastWindowClosed *qapp* nil). 09:01:15 i guess that says that nobody have tried to really use this before 09:02:06 well, this might be an OSX issue. 09:02:10 jtshs256 [~jtshs256@117.136.8.92] has joined #lisp 09:02:37 also, MAIN calls (make-qapplication), that might not be the intended usage of qt-repl. 09:02:59 -!- jtshs256 [~jtshs256@117.136.8.92] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:03:15 maybe I should be calling (qt-tutorial-14::test) instead? 09:04:08 jtshs256 [~jtshs256@111.186.51.23] has joined #lisp 09:04:16 that's probably it. 09:05:23 doesn't matter, the qapplication is instantiated only once 09:05:29 -!- jtshs256 [~jtshs256@111.186.51.23] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:05:39 it'll return the same thing on all subsequent calls to make-qapplication 09:06:02 maybe it's the (#_exec (#_new QEventLoop)) then? 09:06:22 jtshs256 [~jtshs256@111.186.51.23] has joined #lisp 09:06:31 -!- jtshs256 [~jtshs256@111.186.51.23] has left #lisp 09:08:30 jtshs256 [~jtshs256@111.186.51.23] has joined #lisp 09:08:30 i tried pressing quit in the tutorial (without qt-repl), it allows me to run it only once as well 09:08:36 because of quit, i guess 09:08:50 yeah, stick a loop around #_exec I guess. 09:08:55 Shin-LaC [~LaC@adsl-69-211-96-67.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:14 -!- jtshs256 [~jtshs256@111.186.51.23] has left #lisp 09:09:21 how do I add a nickname to a package? 09:09:44 i run my applications in that way: (unless *qapp* (setf *qapp* (make-qapplication))) (let ((window (make-instance 'main-window))) (unwind-protect (with-sbcl-float-traps (#_show window) (#_exec *qapp*)) (#_hide window))) 09:09:49 Shin-LaC: rename-package 09:10:13 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:10:23 but i don't have a quit button, just close windows 09:11:00 kennyd [~kennyd@46.188.235.180] has joined #lisp 09:11:04 and with-sbcl-float-traps is (defmacro with-sbcl-float-traps (&body body) `(#+sbcl ,@'(sb-int:with-float-traps-masked (:invalid :divide-by-zero)) #-sbcl progn ,@body)) 09:11:13 stassats: ah, thanks! 09:11:27 Shin-LaC: is it your package? 09:11:27 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@46.188.235.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:11:29 stassats: yeah, I had to add that too. 09:11:37 stassats: I put it in %%call, actually. 09:12:27 yeah, that's better, but i don't do floating point operations anyway 09:12:49 stassats: no 09:12:52 it is CL-USER 09:13:04 why do you want to add a nickname to it? 09:13:39 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.50.232] has joined #lisp 09:13:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.50.232] has quit [Changing host] 09:13:39 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:13:45 compatibility with some software that expects a "USER" package instead 09:14:13 that's some old software 09:14:23 yes 09:14:45 hmm, rename-package breaks something 09:14:54 now I get Error: There is no package named "COMMON-LISP-USER" 09:15:07 what did you do? 09:15:10 even though that one did not appear in (package-nicknames (find-package 'cl-user)) 09:15:37 common-lisp-user is the name, not a nickname 09:15:40 I did (rename-package "CL-USER" "CL-USER" '("USER")) 09:15:53 oh, I see 09:16:01 should (rename-package "CL-USER" "COMMON-LISP-USER" '("CL-USER" "USER")) 09:16:43 cmoore_ [~hydo@c-71-227-138-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:43 -!- hydo [~hydo@c-71-227-138-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:17:20 -!- dys` is now known as dys 09:17:24 anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has joined #lisp 09:17:35 hmm 09:17:40 if I run this program in lispbox 09:17:59 it gives me the option of making "USER" a nickname for "CL-USER" 09:18:01 and then it works 09:18:21 Shin-LaC: RENAME-PACKAGE is undefined if the new name is already a package name or nickname. 09:18:22 however, if I use rename, I get Error: The function TYI is predefined in Clozure CL. 09:18:57 So you must do it in two steps: (rename-package "CL-USER" "TEMP") (rename-package "TEMP" "COMMON-LISP-USER" '("CL-USER" "USER")) 09:19:04 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 09:19:30 you mustn't, it'll just work 09:19:35 Shin-LaC: you could also fix that old software not to use cl-user, which is inherently unportable as vendors put very different stuff into :cl-user. 09:19:41 pjb: I still get the same error 09:20:04 or just define USER package? 09:20:19 H4ns: it's still being developed 09:20:34 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:47 Shin-LaC: it is never too late to stop bad practice. but anyway. 09:20:51 is it something arcane like gbbopen? 09:21:03 stassats: :user is in use with many lisps. 09:21:08 stassats: I tried that before and, hm I think I may be having a different problem 09:21:16 because that still gave me Error: The function TYI is predefined in Clozure CL. 09:21:23 while creating a nickname interactively worked 09:21:31 so I figured I should create the nickname 09:21:41 but with rename-package, I still get the same error 09:21:45 it must be doing something strange 09:22:05 what software is that? 09:22:18 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 09:22:38 a parser for natural languages 09:22:54 I don't think it's publicly available 09:23:01 kennyd [~kennyd@46.188.235.180] has joined #lisp 09:23:10 it's university stuff 09:23:27 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@46.188.235.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:23:36 damn, slime is broken again 09:23:54 it does attempt to define tyi 09:24:07 I don't understand why that works in the interactive environment, though 09:24:15 quicklisp is unstable and slow on my laptop 09:24:35 Shin-LaC: defining a new :user package is a great suggestion, really. 09:24:38 Shin-LaC: the error is probably not signaled by RENAME-PACKAGE. 09:24:43 Shin-LaC: (at least to solve that particular problem) 09:24:45 chenbing: that sentence doesn't make any sense 09:25:02 H4ns: that was the first thing I tried, and it gets the same problem 09:25:15 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:22 pjb: ah, and choosing "make a nickname" in the interactive prompt probably does... 09:25:24 Shin-LaC: that can't be the case, really. 09:25:28 how can I find out exactly what it does? 09:25:39 borkman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:40 read the code 09:26:02 H4ns: I just tried it again 09:26:08 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:26:14 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 09:26:27 Shin-LaC: what did you try? paste what you typed and the error and stacktrace to paste.lisp.org 09:26:51 how do I get a stacktrace? 09:26:58 -!- borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:27:07 Shin-LaC: you see it in the slime debugger 09:27:21 I'm not using slide, I'm just running clozure directly 09:27:28 *slime 09:27:55 Shin-LaC: type :bt. but if you want to make any decent progress, use slime. 09:28:05 Shin-LaC: it is very hard to support you if you use improper tools. 09:28:18 Unknown command :BT 09:28:25 the problem is that it already works in slime 09:28:34 but I need to run this thing in batch mode 09:29:04 Shin-LaC: you are saying that the exact same sequence of evaluations works in slime, but not on the repl? 09:29:23 Shin-LaC: why do you give random command to ccl? When it enters the debugger, it says "Type :? for other options.". Why didn't you type :? ??? 09:29:24 Shin-LaC: :b gives you a backtrace 09:29:38 H4ns: not exactly 09:29:39 Shin-LaC: i wanted to ask the same question as pjb. 09:29:50 Shin-LaC: ok. then do the exact same thing. 09:30:17 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.211] has joined #lisp 09:30:31 -!- wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:35 ok, if I run it in slime, I get: There is no package named "USER" 09:30:40 same thing I get in clozure 09:30:54 now, one of the restarts is: 2: [MAKE-NICKNAME] Make "USER" be a nickname for package "CL-USER". 09:30:58 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 09:31:07 if I choose that one, then it continues correctly 09:31:25 Allelouia! 09:31:30 what I'm trying to do is to make it do whatever that does automatically 09:31:38 so I don't have to babysit the program whenever it's run 09:31:55 Shin-LaC: update the program to use CL-USER instead of USER. 09:32:02 USER is deprecated. 09:32:07 obsolete even. 09:32:24 Hi, although I am using (declaim (optimize (debug 3)) I am unable to see the local variables at each step of such a form: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126372 09:32:26 pjb: it's not my program 09:32:29 any idea why? 09:32:33 making changes will cause more trouble for me down the road 09:32:41 Shin-LaC: that's not a reason not to correct it. 09:32:59 see = inspects using something like sbcl's "L" 09:33:16 -!- borkman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:33:23 pjb: they don't even have version control 09:33:30 git init 09:33:33 they send updated files by email every once in a while 09:33:53 listen, I don't want to take up the burden of maintaining this program 09:33:57 I couldn't do it even if I wanted 09:34:00 H4ns` [~user@p5DDBB143.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:03 since there's someone else doing it already 09:34:17 what I need to do now is to find out what MAKE-NICKNAME does 09:34:31 it's not just rename-package, clearly 09:34:35 It's a restart. 09:34:36 read the code 09:34:39 -!- H4ns [~user@p5DDBBF59.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:34:41 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 09:34:42 where do I find the code? 09:35:00 You could wrap your command in form to invoke that restart on that error. 09:35:14 But this is as much work if not more, as patching the file and sending the patch to the maintainer. 09:35:21 you already have the code, don't you? 09:35:40 stassats: I have the code of this program, I'm not sure I have the code of clozure cl 09:36:24 peterbb [143027@diamant.ifi.uio.no] has joined #lisp 09:37:15 well, then get the code of clozure cl 09:40:04 tfb [~tfb@92.41.17.133.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:40:15 hm 09:41:04 http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/browser/trunk/source/level-1/l1-error-system.lisp <- I think it's in here, but I don't really understand it 09:41:54 Of course, since you don't read what we write... 09:42:06 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:42:20 pjb: I think your suggestion is the most promising 09:42:25 What you should have searched and read is http://chaitanyagupta.com/lisp/restarts.html 09:42:40 pjb: yes, I'm reading that 09:42:41 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:43:21 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:43:54 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.224.227] has joined #lisp 09:44:21 Shin-LaC: tell me again, why can't you just (defpackage :user (:use :cl)) and be done with it? 09:45:05 H4ns: because that gets me Error: The function CCL:TYI is predefined in Clozure CL. 09:45:19 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:45:36 because the program tries to redefine tyi in user 09:45:45 and possibly other things, but that's the first one that trips it up 09:46:19 the make-nickname restart does something that makes ccl ignore those redefinition errors 09:46:43 Shin-LaC: ah, i see. so the system that you're trying to loads defines a tyi function, is that right? 09:47:29 yes, that's right 09:48:03 Shin-LaC: that error is totally unrelated to the package USER! 09:48:04 Shin-LaC: so what you're interested in is how to switch off package locks in clozure cl. 09:48:06 Read what we write! 09:49:26 huh 09:49:50 pjb: you're right 09:50:11 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 09:50:12 when running the program in clozurecl directly, choosing that restart still gives the redefinition error on tyi 09:50:25 H4ns: I guess! 09:50:30 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-mhthrszpabyumhle] has joined #lisp 09:50:34 ok, so the restart is a red herring 09:50:43 That's why you shouldn't use the CL-USER package: It's full of implementation dependent clutter. 09:50:56 pjb: cl-user isn't standardized? 09:51:00 there is something else in the lispbox environment that makes the redefinition of lyi work 09:51:01 madnificent: no. 09:51:04 So if you had read what we write, you'd have (defpackage :user (:use :cl)) from the start and be done with it. 09:51:09 madnificent: no it is not. 09:51:18 madnificent: each implementation may put anything it wants in there. 09:51:19 it's standardized to be there and have cl exported 09:51:29 err, used 09:51:56 pjb: well, nobody said that that was unrelated to the tyi problem until you said it a minute ago 09:52:18 "<10:22:45> Shin-LaC: the error is probably not signaled by RENAME-PACKAGE." 09:52:19 so, I am now using (defpackage :user (:use :cl)), but I still need to solve the tyi problem 09:52:43 Shin-LaC: rename the tyi function to a name that does not conflict with the :cl package. 09:52:58 But he cannot do that, since he cannot patch that program! :-) 09:53:23 pjb: i know. i keep repeating until he can. 09:53:27 on top of what pjb said, it's also annoying to have a different environment from what I was using interactively 09:53:35 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:53:37 Shin-LaC: try deleting fasls 09:53:37 there may be other differences besides this one 09:53:40 and reloading again 09:53:58 i don't think that you would have a problem with TYI when used with (defpackage :user (:use :cl)) 09:54:04 Shin-LaC: sure. porting software is work. 09:54:13 Shin-LaC: porting bad software is more work. 09:54:18 but probably your fasls use the old symbol, so try deleting them 09:54:45 H4ns, pjb: ah well, it's a playground of some sort, it makes sense 09:54:59 I think there is a bug in SBCL 1.0.52, whenever I try to debug the simplest code it gives debugger invoked on a SB-INT:BUG: Don't know how to use a DEBUG-SOURCE without a namestring or a form ... 09:54:59 stassats: I tried deleting utilities.fasl and utilities.dx64fsl (the redefinition is in utilities.lisp) 09:55:03 but I still get the same error 09:55:15 madnificent: it is for people who can't be bothered with packages. 09:55:31 Shin-LaC: rename it, for fucks sake. 09:55:36 madnificent: I don't know. First thing I do in my rc files is: (mapc (lambda (package) (unuse-package package "COMMON-LISP-USER"))(set-difference (copy-seq (package-use-list "COMMON-LISP-USER")) (delete nil (list #| A list of all the "CL" packages possible: |# (find-package "COMMON-LISP") (find-package "IMAGE-BASED-COMMON-LISP"))))) 09:55:38 H4ns: that, is scary :) 09:55:56 madnificent: it is very common, in particular among old-school lispers. 09:56:15 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 09:56:23 i don't see how it references TYI if it doesn't use CL-USER 09:56:29 or it does use cl-user? 09:56:54 Perhaps, if there's no (in-package ...). 09:56:55 Shin-LaC: rename tyi, check whether there are more problems. verify that the private tyi does something different from cl:tyi. if you're lucky, you can just delete the extra definition and be done with it. 09:57:12 H4ns: it's ccl:tyi. 09:57:17 pjb: ah! 09:57:18 ccl is a private ccl package. 09:57:28 pjb: that explains. i was just about to check. 09:57:30 But it is probably used by cl-user in ccl. 09:57:42 H4ns: there are more problems I'll keep trying 09:57:57 Shin-LaC: read what pjb writes. it helps. 09:58:04 Shin-LaC: you might also try the form I gave to madnificent above to clean the cl-user package. 09:58:22 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:58:52 maybe setting *package* to something other than :cl-user would help him? 09:58:59 (before loading the ancient stuff) 09:59:40 oh yeah, most probably it doesn't have in-package 10:00:26 Shin-LaC: so try: (defpackage "USER" (:use "CL")) (in-package "USER") (load "your-program.lisp") 10:01:06 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-230-236.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:18 Shin-LaC: maybe there is no in-package at all, in any of the old software? that'd explain quite a bit. 10:01:35 -!- gko [~gko@27.241.196.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:01:58 stassats`: had to copy-paste the code to see what it did :) is image-based-common-lisp not guaranteed to exist? 10:02:02 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:11 Yes, unless you've loaded ibcl :-) 10:02:13 also, i find it odd that find-package requires a string, instead of a symbol 10:02:27 it doesn't 10:02:27 madnificent: it wants a string designator. 10:02:54 In the standard, it wants a string designator. 10:02:56 H4ns: yes, i know. i double-checked it in the CLHS, but i find it odd that it's defined like that. i wonder what the reasoning behind it was 10:03:07 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:03:10 or package object. 10:03:32 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-51-179.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:03:35 madnificent: it is more convenient that way. 10:03:35 madnificent: because packages and symbols have strings as their names 10:04:08 you can't name a symbol with a symbol, can you? 10:04:14 odd, it says string designator, and i didn't grasp what that meant. sorry! 10:04:31 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 10:04:38 find-package actually accepts a package designator 10:04:40 *madnificent* somehow skipped over the designator part, it makes perfect sense now 10:04:48 stassats`: intern expects a string, but a symbol is a symbol designator, and sometimes, only the symbol name is used to designate another symbol. 10:05:16 pjb: it's a designator because it have a string in its name 10:05:44 No, designators in generate can be any object used to "designate" the same or another object. 10:06:00 So any object can be a designator, subject to interpretation. 10:06:35 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:06:43 (find-package :hello) (string= :hello str) :hello is a package designator for find-package, but it's a string designator for string=. 10:06:48 it's pretty clear what can be a string designator 10:07:04 stassats`: no, because it depends on the function, on the interpreter. 10:07:33 (chmilblick (find-package "TOTO")) Perhaps the package is a string designator, for the function chmilblick. 10:07:48 i don't care about chmilblick 10:08:06 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:08:12 heidymadia [~saasten@61.247.42.167] has joined #lisp 10:08:14 Anything can be a string designator. 10:08:46 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:08:52 this is just silly talk 10:09:23 Just read the glossary! designator n. an object that denotes another object. In the dictionary entry for an operator if a parameter is described as a designator for a type, the description of the operator is written in a way that assumes that appropriate coercion to that type has already occurred; that is, that the parameter is already of the denoted type. For more detailed information, see Section 1.4.1.5 (Designators). 10:09:23 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:09:40 H4ns: no, it's full of (in-package "USER") 10:10:06 i'm talking about string designators in CL 10:10:11 Shin-LaC: very well. then, does utilities.lisp have it, too? 10:10:11 kennyd [~kennyd@46.188.235.180] has joined #lisp 10:10:12 why do you show me an entry to just designators? 10:10:30 string-designator is defined in the CLHS as string, character symbol. unless the implementation extends the notion of strings, extending the notion of string-designators doesn't seem to be allowed 10:10:30 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@46.188.235.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:10:41 implementations can extend what can be a string designator, but not "anything" can be a string designator 10:10:43 stassats`: the notion of designator depends on the OPERATOR! 10:10:57 nah, this is pointless 10:11:03 H4ns: yes 10:11:07 stassats`: what types are accepted for a string designator depends exclusively on the operator in question! 10:11:18 i don't care anymore 10:11:24 anything can be a string designator, it all depends on the operator. 10:11:25 I kinda got it to work 10:11:29 <_3b> pjb: glossary seems to give a pretty specific list for 'string designator' 10:11:34 Shin-LaC: so, when you create a new package "USER" and then load utilities.lisp, what happens? 10:11:38 now the problem is in my own code, at last 10:11:42 \o/ 10:12:55 _3b: well, that definition is quite restrictive, since it doesn't specify for what operator. But granted. 10:13:45 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:13:51 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 10:13:51 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 10:13:51 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 10:13:51 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 10:14:04 anywhere in CLHS "string designator" is used, it's used in this sense 10:14:14 Yes. ok. 10:14:19 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:14:57 for find-package it says a string designator or a package object (which is actually a package designator), not "a string designator, which can be string, ..., and a package object" 10:15:03 Shin-LaC: i didn't catch enough of the conversation to know exactly what's up. but a word of advice: use packages! 10:15:46 incf stassats` 10:16:06 thanks, i'm trying to gain weight 10:16:14 incf stassats` 100 10:16:20 fatty 10:16:37 madnificent: I will when I write my own program! 10:16:47 is that in pounds? maybe i was 50 pounds before that, how do you know? 10:17:45 stassats`: the secret alien incf lispcode figured it out all by itself, don't blame me! 10:18:18 it's "a mass designator" 10:18:53 -!- teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:19:11 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 10:21:38 the SI unit is the gram, or if you're using m-kg-s 1000 grams ... not some imperial unit that's obsolete by a few hundred years 10:22:05 so the increment's either just a small package of chocolate, or enough for 2 people 10:22:06 100 lbs is less than 100 kg 10:22:15 right. as if the united states wasn't the only superpower on earth. 10:22:55 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:23:14 lnostdal [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:18 lnostdal_ [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:22 I don't think it was a political statement 10:23:26 they are called imperial units 10:23:28 it's their name 10:23:34 there should be location aware unit designators, hook to gps and use the right one 10:23:42 and they're named after the british empire 10:25:03 oh wait, I misread the not 10:25:22 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:25:44 you can't even joke about pounds on #lisp, somebody will surely say that grams are better 10:25:45 oh well 10:26:08 stassats`: actually, it's the kg the unit of mass in the SI system. 10:26:13 -!- sacho__ [~sacho@46.10.7.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:26:26 daniel___ [~daniel@p50829E16.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:51 What I don't understand is why the USA who revolted against the british kept their units. Logically they should have switched to SI a long time ago... 10:26:56 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-207-217.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:27:04 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 10:27:23 like as if logic was the driving factor in history. 10:27:56 Yes, I never felt entirely Earthling. 10:28:12 -!- daniel__2 [~daniel@p5B326B0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:29:32 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.36] has joined #lisp 10:31:03 -!- xan_ [~xan@243.Red-88-1-40.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:31:14 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:31:36 -!- msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has quit [Quit: msponge] 10:33:48 lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has joined #lisp 10:35:27 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:36:17 -!- chenbing [~user@115.192.215.143] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:36:19 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:36:35 Qwisconscince [43358bc0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.53.139.192] has joined #lisp 10:37:57 Qwisconsinescenc [43358bc0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.53.139.192] has joined #lisp 10:38:43 -!- lnostdal_ [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:40:45 lnostdal [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:00 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:41:07 -!- Qwisconscince [43358bc0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.53.139.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:41:40 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.36] has joined #lisp 10:41:45 lnostdal_ [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:14 -!- passionke [~Administr@218.72.84.29] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:43:59 passionke [~Administr@218.72.84.29] has joined #lisp 10:46:57 Might anyone have an idea about this error, perhaps how I can identify the root problem? http://paste.lisp.org/display/126373 10:47:07 hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD72D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:41 stack trace or it did not happen. 10:48:15 unfortunately my lisp won't give a stack trace 10:48:17 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 10:48:31 Qwisconsinescenc: what lisp is that? 10:48:53 lispworks, for this particular error. The stack trace seems to be empty 10:49:03 Qwisconsinescenc: i can't fathom that. 10:49:54 Neither can I, but both :b and :bb give nothing 10:50:04 Qwisconsinescenc: you have a problem with external formats, but without a stack trace, it is just guesswork. i am pretty sure that lispworks provides for stack traces, so find out how. 10:50:18 Of course lispworks does 10:50:20 Qwisconsinescenc: is the problem occuring in a background thread maybe? 10:50:38 That's what I might suppose 10:50:59 Qwisconsinescenc: then you need to attach to that thread. 10:54:04 oudeis [~oudeis@host86-140-132-83.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:55:02 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-63-146.lns1.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:56:02 looks like the other end is sending utf-8 or something similar 11:00:05 i don't see it in the mop, but find that odd: is there a way for me to list all subclasses for a specific class? 11:00:28 madnificent: class-direct-subclasses? 11:00:34 c2mop:class-direct-subclasses 11:00:49 and use recursion to get _all_ subclasses 11:01:30 yeah, i'd have assumed class-all-subclasses to be in there as well, assumed i had to be missing something. 11:01:49 (defun subclasses (class-name) (labels ((all-subclasses (class) (cons class (mapcan #'all-subclasses (c2mop:class-direct-subclasses class))))) (mapcar #'class-name (all-subclasses (find-class class-name))))) 11:02:09 sans mapcar #'class-name 11:02:21 stassats`: i can code :) 11:02:27 i can copy-paste 11:02:37 where ded you cp it from? 11:02:45 from a file 11:03:08 i'll jot it down my way, but thanks! 11:03:43 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:03:54 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 11:03:58 (defun class-subclasses (class) (labels ((all-subclasses (class) (cons class (mapcan #'all-subclasses (c2mop:class-direct-subclasses class))))) (all-subclasses class-name))) 11:04:44 s/class-name/class/ 11:05:52 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-118-248.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 11:06:17 i doubt you'll make it any differently 11:06:40 maybe he wants no duplicates? 11:08:10 maybe, but that's just a delete-duplicates away 11:09:18 there's 2019 subclasses of T in my image 11:09:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:12:31 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:13:58 -!- Qwisconsinescenc [43358bc0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.53.139.192] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:15:20 -!- H4ns [~user@p5DDBB143.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:15:59 i used loop instead 11:19:47 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-emjtwpyxdesiedon] has left #lisp 11:22:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.60.162] has joined #lisp 11:22:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.60.162] has quit [Changing host] 11:22:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:24:52 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:29:38 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:30:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:30:31 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:31:03 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 11:36:49 algal [~anonymous@host-92-26-7-156.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:59 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 11:41:10 H4ns [~user@g231222045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:41:29 -!- H4ns [~user@g231222045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 11:41:45 if i define a slot with :allocation :class, can i figure out whether or not its bound when i don't have an instance of that class? 11:42:41 through c2mop:class-prototype 11:44:34 H4ns [~user@g231222045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:46:22 I'm getting some broken quicklisp packages (e.g., bordeaux-threads) after doing (ql:update-all-dists). What's the canonical way to clean and refresh some or all QL packages? 11:46:27 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-230-236.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:46:47 algal: Broken in what way? 11:47:39 I noticed it when trying to load :drakma. But it seems to be originating from bordeaux threads. For instance, if In run (ql:quickload :bordeaux-threads-test) I get an undefined-function condition. 11:47:50 It says the function bordeaux-threads:make-lock is undefined. 11:48:01 algal: Are you using SBCL on Darwin? 11:48:11 Xach: yes 11:48:19 (e.g., OSX 10.7) 11:48:32 But I can the defun for make-lock in the bordeaux-threads code. 11:48:49 I think that is because you do not have threads enabled. I ran into that as well but did not dig deeply. 11:48:56 I don't know if it's an update in bordeaux threads or in something else. 11:48:58 So I reckon the problem is a bug in loading order in the package definitions, or maybe QL got confused. 11:49:13 I don't think so. 11:49:28 hmm.. You mean I'm running the wrong SBCL variant, and now bordeaux-threads no longer works on my SBCL variant? 11:49:38 FSVO "wrong" 11:49:46 FSVO=? 11:49:51 For some value of "wrong" 11:49:57 k 11:50:32 I don't think you're doing anything wrong, necessarily, it's just that something has changed. I don't know if it's that drakma now needs b-t, or if b-t has been updated incompatibily, or what. 11:50:56 It deserves investigation, but I haven't looked deeply yet. 11:51:17 One thing to try is threaded SBCL. If that works, it's probably worth bringing it up with someone who can make changes to bordeaux-threads. 11:52:27 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-235-239.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:34 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 11:52:39 works like a charm stassats` 11:52:59 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:53:37 if the class isn't finalized, there may be no class-prototype, but if class-finalized-p is nil it surely means that any slots are unbound 11:53:39 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:53:54 stassats`: doesn't finalize-inheritance fix that? 11:54:14 it does, if that's what you want 11:54:15 under the assumption that classes are fully known (that's a constraint i'd gladly live with) 11:54:50 finalize-inheritance doesn't mean i can't redefine the classes later on either, so it seems safe 11:55:18 it just resolves forward references 11:55:45 oudeis_ [~oudeis@host86-161-43-56.range86-161.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:55:48 sounds great to me 11:55:52 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-63-146.lns1.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:55:55 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@host86-140-132-83.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:56:17 -!- coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Quit: Heaven isnt a place, Bartleby, it's being with people who love you.] 11:56:39 but you'd rather check class-finalized-p before calling finalize-inheritance, there's rarely a need to call finalize-inheritance several times 12:00:49 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:01:06 Xach: hmm.. okay. I'll check it if I need to switch to SBCL+threads and if there's anything in the bordeaux threads release logs about changing dependencies. 12:01:33 algal: more likely to be in drakma logs i think. 12:01:35 bordeaux threads can't really work without threads 12:01:51 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:02:14 -!- heidymadia [~saasten@61.247.42.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:03:18 stassats`: what about the make-lock bits? 12:03:23 could that simply be no-ops on unthreaded? 12:03:56 do you really need locks in a unithreaded image? 12:04:08 stassats`: Some libraries seem to unconditionally use them. 12:04:41 will they unconditionally work if there's no threads but there are locks? 12:05:14 I do not know. 12:06:06 make-lock is a no op indeed 12:06:40 but all threading functions err 12:07:54 Something busts for me when loading drakma on darwin unthreaded sbcl. I will dig. 12:08:12 Xach: yeah, this break breaks drakma. 12:08:22 Xach: tho you're issue might be separate. 12:08:35 I noticed it because bordeaux-threads -> drakma -> cl-mediawiki. 12:09:22 McRibbit [~user@zaza2.ida.liu.se] has joined #lisp 12:10:24 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 12:15:12 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:16:24 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:18:18 silenius [~silenius@i59F773D8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:20:48 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 12:21:23 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:21:46 -!- KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Quit: KingNato] 12:27:11 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:35 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:35:02 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:37:43 iirc SBCL's threads on darwin was broken but then a fix has been applied. 12:39:19 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:40:04 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.224.227] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 12:40:17 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:41:26 so installing sbcl+threads, purging old fasts, and re-installing fixed everything. 12:41:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.60.162] has joined #lisp 12:41:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.60.162] has quit [Changing host] 12:41:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:41:54 In other words, it seems the update to drakma effectively introduces a dependency on sbcl+threads where +threads wasn't required before. 12:42:15 (sorry, meant purging old "fasls") 12:43:03 -!- kilon [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:43:40 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.36] has joined #lisp 12:44:12 oudeis__ [~oudeis@host86-140-189-24.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:30 good evening 12:46:45 -!- oudeis_ [~oudeis@host86-161-43-56.range86-161.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:50:39 http://paste.lisp.org/display/126375 - is there a way to close over a variable "symbolically"? 12:50:59 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-118-248.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Quit: bye] 12:51:04 what do you mean ? 12:51:48 <_3b> is this about the bit where loops might rebind vars each iteration or reuse it, so closing over loop iteration vars is unportable? 12:52:43 <_3b> hmm, maybe not... 12:52:49 it is about a parser that calls me back - i want to use it in a loop and thought i could just store a few closures and then call them from the callback. a bit hard to explain. 12:52:49 *_3b* can't tell what that is doing 12:53:04 hakzsam_ [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:18 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-60-84.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:53:26 but in the code example, the closure closes over the first binding of local-variable. 12:53:28 H4ns: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/702571d75f41ced6/2183b41e2a37c258?hl=en&q=deref+group:comp.lang.lisp+author:pascal+author:bourguignon 12:53:45 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:54:22 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:55:09 -!- oudeis__ is now known as oudeis 12:55:10 pjb: i'm looking for a way that does not require me to use something like "deref" really. 12:55:15 pjb: but thanks 12:55:49 -!- passionke [~Administr@218.72.84.29] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:56:06 passionke [~Administr@122.233.76.129] has joined #lisp 12:56:56 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-60-84.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Client Quit] 12:58:44 You can hide the deref too. 12:59:16 H4ns: in ccl-trunk, assigning FUNCTION unconditionally yields your desired result 12:59:21 The trick is just to build the lexical environment yourself (to have it conformingly and portable). Then you can do whatever you want with it. 12:59:48 See also: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/fadbcbf462264423/29713966b57546c7?hl=en&q=environment+group:comp.lang.lisp+author:pascal+author:bourguignon#29713966b57546c7 13:01:00 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 13:01:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:01:16 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.46.238] has joined #lisp 13:01:20 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.46.238] has quit [Changing host] 13:01:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:02:21 pjb: ah, ok. let me see if there is a quick and non-portable version. thanks again! 13:02:22 nonduality [~yaaic@178.113.47.22.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lisp 13:02:35 Something like http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/7dd935725adc48a4?hl=en 13:03:35 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:03:52 -!- hakzsam_ [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:04:09 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:25 <_3b> does declaring locaL-variable special do what you want? 13:04:42 -!- nonduality [~yaaic@178.113.47.22.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:04:45 That could be solution too. 13:05:45 _3b: that would probably do, yes. i'd prefer a solution that works with lexical variables as that'd be more natural. the code i pasted resembles what my macro generates. 13:06:31 _3b: (so the real code would only contain the let and a macro invocation that includes the body of the lambda) 13:06:57 H4ns: what about http://paste.lisp.org/display/126375#1? 13:07:34 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0477.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:08:11 stassats`: yeah, that'll work, too :) - but then, the variable would be put outside of the loop, where i'd want it to be existing just inside of it. 13:08:21 i guess i'm just demanding too much. 13:08:29 *H4ns* investigates cltl2 environments. 13:08:30 what about what silenius said? 13:08:47 <_3b> a local special declaration is too much extra? 13:08:48 stassats`: i'm not using ccl here. it is *duck* acl 13:09:08 H4ns: no, it's what CL would do 13:09:25 _3b: "too much" no. i'm just looking for something that does require nothing extra. 13:09:26 H4ns: just mentioned impl/version to make debugging easier for you. that's just cl. 13:09:48 H4ns: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126375#2 works on ACL 13:10:04 ah, now i get it. no, i don't want to assign the function every time because it is not one function, but many. 13:10:09 (like 20-40) 13:10:10 <_3b> ok, i was probably misinterpreting which parts were macro generated or not :) 13:10:43 H4ns: some complex macro you got there 13:10:48 stassats`: indeed. 13:10:57 stassats`: the beauty is only skin deep. 13:11:11 stassats`: but that's okay. 13:12:29 hm. the thing is not unlike a case statement really. 13:13:40 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.120.39] has joined #lisp 13:14:38 i'll use tagbody/go instead of functions. that'll do find. 13:15:13 fine even 13:15:27 prog! 13:15:48 *H4ns* looks up prog 13:16:05 it's let, block and tagbody in a single package 13:16:29 i haven't ever had a chance to use it 13:16:40 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.12.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:16:51 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-127.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 13:17:04 heh. i think i'll be fine with just tagbody. 13:18:09 actually, i haven't had a chance to use tagbody either 13:19:45 damn, i really need a computed go, which apparently go is not about. 13:20:18 (defmacro computed-go (where) (ecase where (a (go a)) (b (go b)) ...)) 13:20:19 time for another macro 13:20:30 yeah, or just ecase 13:27:50 H4ns: is there a reason why you don't want to assign the lambda with its new environment each time 13:27:51 ? 13:27:59 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-233-83.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:28:00 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-207-217.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:28:24 madnificent: yeah, there are like 20-40 clauses (separate lambdas) that need to be called based on a key, and i need that to be fast 13:28:27 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:29:08 H4ns: and you can't put the local-variable outside of the outer dotimes either and setf it to (list i)? 13:29:16 but using ecase was just the right thing to do. 13:29:42 ok 13:29:46 madnificent: i believe we covered that above 13:29:51 ah oops 13:30:21 stassats`: i missed the annotations, apparently 13:30:34 http://paste.lisp.org/display/126375#3 is the macro as it works now. 13:33:42 add^_ [~add^_^@h234n6c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 13:33:50 -!- algal [~anonymous@host-92-26-7-156.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: algal] 13:35:53 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-60-84.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 13:37:35 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 13:39:56 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 13:40:12 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.75.234] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:40:36 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.92.181] has joined #lisp 13:44:25 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-127.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 13:45:00 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 13:45:16 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:46:34 -!- McRibbit [~user@zaza2.ida.liu.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:19 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:49:16 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:49 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.167.97] has joined #lisp 13:50:05 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.197.243.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:55:25 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:55:25 -!- lnostdal_ [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:55:39 pff, just having add prototypes for functions in ObjC cuts into my willingness to quickly put pieces of code into their own functions 13:56:17 You haven't written a lisp program to write ObjC for you, yet? 13:56:26 Have emacs do it for you. Bonus: you will have to program this feature in emacs lisp! 13:56:41 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-49-252.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:57:07 lnostdal [~lnostdal@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:08 lnostdal_ [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:05 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 13:59:07 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:01 Xach: i admit my failure but i haven't 14:00:32 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:37 pjb: using xcode currently so i have some good arguments to burn it into the ground later 14:00:39 G'morning all. 14:00:40 pnq [~nick@ACA2DD1E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:11 aerique: ... you're using xcode purely to have an excuse to destroy your project later? 14:01:22 nyef: yeah :) 14:01:33 I guess that works. 14:01:36 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 14:02:22 coming from emacs+slime i'm quite underwhelmed by xcode even though i think i gave it a fair chance 14:02:41 still, this 3-month gig is quite refreshing from my usual day job 14:02:47 *aerique* goed back to work 14:03:08 -!- lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:03:21 lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has joined #lisp 14:07:25 -!- pon1980 [~pon@195-67-88-105.customer.telia.com] has left #lisp 14:08:49 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 14:09:02 -!- lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:10:02 chenbing [~user@60.186.242.169] has joined #lisp 14:10:43 -!- [mark] [~mark@unaffiliated/mark/x-957811] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:11:50 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@2.129.76.244] has joined #lisp 14:16:09 syrinx__ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 14:16:09 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:16:20 tfb_ [~tfb@92.41.17.133.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:16:22 -!- syrinx__ is now known as syrinx_ 14:19:17 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.17.133.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:20:13 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.211] has quit [Quit: Offline] 14:20:55 Xach: This afternoon I quickload some libs ,when "atdoc" there is some troubles in my installing, with "retry" or "ignore" .I do admit I haven't collected some information then.now I try to check "atdoc" agian.http://paste.lisp.org/display/126378 14:22:31 lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has joined #lisp 14:22:46 chenbing: what version of SBCL do you use? 14:23:33 This is SBCL 1.0.40.0.debian 14:23:56 tarmil [~user@business-178-48-18-229.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:24:23 -!- lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24:42 chenbing: I can't reproduce the problem with 1.0.53. 14:25:15 okay 14:25:31 I will test it with new version of sbcl 14:25:47 chenbing: When writing English, commas are followed by a space, not preceded. 14:26:02 Same with ".". 14:27:05 except for "..." 14:28:10 :-) for your advice and :-( for my careless customs 14:29:57 It's our brains are overloaded by trying to manage English spelling, so punctuation helps. 14:35:31 erhz [~erhz@27.Red-79-154-73.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:27 -!- mmullis_ [~mmullis@208.65.90.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:37:04 Yep. Overloaded is not comfortable, correct space looks more nice 14:37:17 BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.197.238.146] has joined #lisp 14:38:42 mmullis_ [~mmullis@208.65.90.233] has joined #lisp 14:38:58 YuleAthas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 14:39:16 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.183.160] has joined #lisp 14:40:26 Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:57 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD72D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:43:45 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:43:48 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:45:40 _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.113.98] has joined #lisp 14:46:28 ThomasH [4b1349ad@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 14:46:37 Greetings lispers. 14:47:06 lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has joined #lisp 14:50:13 hello ThomasH 14:50:44 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:54:35 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2DD1E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:54:53 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.183.160] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 14:56:42 -!- lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:57:37 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.113.98] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:58:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:02:12 waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has joined #lisp 15:04:30 TDT [~user@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 15:06:10 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-mhthrszpabyumhle] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:08:15 Xach: planet lisp's sparklines should be on a logarithmic scale. 15:11:17 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:11:51 Xach: but when writing lisp, the , follows a space: `(like ,this) so i can see how chenbing could get confused ;-) 15:14:05 eMBee: `(like, this) works too 15:14:14 teggi [~teggi@123.21.164.107] has joined #lisp 15:15:01 interesting, but i suppose it is hard to read for the same reason that makes the reverse hard in english 15:19:01 urandom__ [~user@p548A2A31.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:13 -!- e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-ygxfjjrrpxvcgjuy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:21:41 pnathan [~Adium@98.145.116.190] has joined #lisp 15:21:54 luis: I'm in the mood for hacking planet lisp software, so maybe that will happen 15:24:21 cool. :-) 15:24:56 Xach: Do you pay 3% on quicklisp donations? 15:25:04 To paypal 15:26:10 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:26:58 Some percentage. 3% sounds like it's in the ballpark. 15:27:52 Check out Dwolla -> https://www.dwolla.com/ $.25 per transaction. 15:29:21 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-mybtjuvcqocrppwt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:29:25 -!- Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:30:12 antgreen [~user@70.50.67.239] has joined #lisp 15:30:40 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:32:34 Noctifer [~Noctifer@82.113.98.139] has joined #lisp 15:34:37 -!- ganjahtronic [~ganjahtro@189.243.220.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:36:32 Xach: quicklisp is so cool, i'll donate soon 15:36:35 gigamonkey: manifest loaded fine on ACL 15:36:37 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:39 modern mode, too. 15:36:49 felideon: did not work for me earlier today. 15:37:03 H4ns: you have to get it from githu 15:37:04 felideon: i mean, it loaded, and the index page worked, but not the individual package reports (404) 15:37:06 there's a fix 15:37:08 oh 15:37:12 felideon: from when? 15:37:21 eMBee: nope. It's just a personal ungood habbit, I'm too curious to express. It's nothing about lisp 15:37:23 H4ns: no sorry, i was only checking for compilation (quickloading) 15:37:25 felideon: (i loaded from github earlier today) 15:37:33 havent tried actually running. 15:37:36 :) 15:37:36 :D 15:37:45 yesterday it was failing to compile due to conflicting symbols. 15:37:47 felideon: please do and let me know if you have the same issue. 15:39:30 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:40:41 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.167.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:41:09 my goodness, allegro has a fast compiler. 15:41:12 H4ns: same. 15:41:37 felideon: as in "does not work here, too"? 15:42:06 H4ns: as in, 'same as you'. i.e. I also get toot 404 pages when clicking the links 15:42:14 H4ns: just sent mail about that. 15:42:17 felideon: k 15:42:21 High order bit: use Common Lisp. ;-) 15:42:22 gigamonkey: just saw that, reading now. 15:43:20 gigamonkey: tsk. 15:43:26 Of course my code assumes that package names are uppercase which while likely true in practice is not necessarily true even in Common Lisp. 15:43:29 I guess it's due to modern mode? 15:43:35 right 15:43:40 gigamonkey: should i fix? 15:43:47 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:44:20 Well, if you want to hack the source, find the place where I do (find-package (string-upcase package-nam)) and take out the string-upcase (or conditionalize it on modern mode or something) 15:44:47 gigamonkey: let's do the upcasing in css 15:44:57 gigamonkey: i'll send you a pull request :) 15:45:04 *eMBee* was searching for a lisp book in the bookstores last weekend. plenty of books about PLC but not about PCL :-) 15:45:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:45:58 Okay. Probably The Right Thing is to use the actual case of the package name in the URL. 15:46:40 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:47:27 Or possibly to use (find-package (let ((*package* (find-package :keyword))) (read-from-string package-name))) 15:47:47 (I'd sort of prefer urls like http://localhost:12345/toot than http://localhost:12345/TOOT 15:47:58 nothing also in the second bookstore until suddenly the name peter seibel popped in my sight. after i passed that same shelf at least 3 times. 15:48:23 gigamonkey: is there a guarantee that a keyword symbol exists for the package name? 15:48:25 xan_ [~xan@243.Red-88-1-40.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:44 i did a double take, but there indeed was a copy of PCL in plain sight 15:48:49 gigamonkey: manifest is really cool, do you plan to add information from .asd ? especially the :depends-on stuff 15:49:00 H4ns: there will be when you read it. 15:49:06 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:49:10 rme [~rme@50.43.147.52] has joined #lisp 15:49:12 find-package takes a string designator 15:49:33 oudeis_ [~oudeis@host86-164-8-11.range86-164.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:51 daimrod: thanks. I have various plans for Manifest enhancements which are all dependent on me wanting to procrastinate from writing by doing some hacking. 15:49:53 gigamonkey: why not use (find (list-all-packages) :key #'package-name :test #'string-equal) 15:50:03 unfortunately i can't read it 15:50:13 one cool thing for manifest would be: /package/symbol -> disambiguation page 15:50:14 gigamonkey: true, but "Package" is not the same as "PACKAGE" or "package", right? 15:50:27 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@host86-140-189-24.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:50:37 er, wow, i was just wanting sometihng almost exactly like manifest 15:50:41 nikodemus: what would be on that page? 15:50:50 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-012.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:51:17 H4ns: yeah. If people name their packages like that, the only solution is to use the true case in the url or your linear scan of all packages which seems kind of suboptimal. 15:51:45 gigamonkey: similar to clhs for eg. C-c C-d h function 15:51:56 msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has joined #lisp 15:52:09 if there's only one meaning for the symbol, take directly there, of course 15:52:21 gigamonkey: i tend to solutions that work. would you pull a find-package-hard function that uses find-package and tries find (list-all-packages) ... if find-package is not successful? 15:52:27 ganjahtronic [~ganjahtro@189.243.220.125] has joined #lisp 15:52:51 H4ns: mmmmm. Let me think about it. I'd be more inclined to use slightly ugly URLs. 15:52:58 :) 15:53:00 ok 15:53:24 Or there may be some dance of using PRINT and READ to generate the URLs and then parse them back that will roundtrip properly in Common Lisp and mlisp. 15:53:45 gigamonkey: are you considering any text indexing/lookup? 15:53:51 gigamonkey: mlisp? 15:54:15 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-233-83.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:54:20 madnificent: the name for the modern-mode executable in Allegro. 15:54:29 ah, ok 15:54:30 oGMo: hadn't though of that. You mean like an apropos page. 15:55:19 gigamonkey: well more like a text box you can type something into and find anything that mentions it, docstring text or symbol name 15:55:28 gigamonkey: i think manifest should be integrated inside emacs instead of in a webpage. but i've used it and it's great fun! also, it's a good example of toot. 15:55:36 but if that's what you mean then yes ;x 15:56:41 madnificent: like C-c C-d p ? 15:56:48 _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.117.147] has joined #lisp 15:57:02 oudeis__ [~oudeis@host86-186-139-242.range86-186.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:13 montezuma appears to be in QL .. i haven't used it myself, but it appears fairly simple 15:57:15 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.132] has joined #lisp 15:57:36 daimrod: it doesn't list all currently loaded packages etc. the view which manifests provides is rather nice (in case you haven't tried just yet) 15:57:38 -!- oudeis_ [~oudeis@host86-164-8-11.range86-164.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:58:16 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 9.0/20111130065942]] 15:59:05 oGMo: the on-disk indexes in Montezuma are broken for sure, in-memory might work but i found it to consume relatively much memory 15:59:07 gigamonkey: meh, I give up on CSS. got other stuff to do. but I was trying to fix the li columns to have a margin or somethign as the long package names (such as com.gigamonkeys.) overlap 15:59:20 madnificent: ah too bad 15:59:26 pnq [~nick@ACA22492.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:39 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA22492.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:59:47 oGMo: otoh, montezuma is fun to play with. it's just a nice system to use. 16:00:31 madnificent: it looks that way, though sadly appears not to have been touched in awhile 16:01:05 but manifest is just the thing i was after for doing documentation .. something appropriately lispy 16:02:28 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.117.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:02:38 madnificent: well, it does if you use the tab completion, but you're right manifest is nicer. 16:02:53 felideon: pull from git@github.com:hanshuebner/manifest.git 16:02:54 gigamonkey: invert the case, and let mlisp users have urls WITH-UPCASE-SYMBOLS :) 16:04:03 oudeis_ [~oudeis@host86-169-53-226.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:04:21 if you set *print-case* to :downcase and convert from/to a symbol, then everything will be just fine, no? 16:05:09 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 16:05:21 -!- ganjahtronic [~ganjahtro@189.243.220.125] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:06:31 -!- oudeis__ [~oudeis@host86-186-139-242.range86-186.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:06:42 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:07:10 H4ns: Works on mlisp now! 16:07:35 gigamonkey: any chance of adding 
 for leading whitespace?
16:07:56  i see lots of docstrings with examples in them that become just a huge mess
16:08:16  eg. alexandria:destructuring-case
16:09:32  madnificent: I think that would work.
16:09:42  gigamonkey: neat!
16:10:01 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-127.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp
16:10:02  nikodemus: yeah. One thought is to let users specify how docstrings are to be interpreted.
16:10:11  oh, that would be nice
16:10:26  I'm also inclined to encourage having both a short thing to display and a longer one that would be displayed elsewhere.
16:10:42  Or rather, not users but the package author.
16:10:50  readme bit from package docstring would be neat ;)
16:11:20  oGMo: how do you mean. I do include the package docstring.
16:11:39  gigamonkey: how about doing the elisp thing and showing the first line only (or first sentence or paragraph, or something), and having "show all" button that opens the whole thing in a 
16:11:44 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
16:12:03  might make things with long docs easier to eyeball
16:12:14 -!- djuber [~djuber@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:13:06  gigamonkey: guess i wasn't looking at something that had one .. well then, neat
16:13:10 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp
16:13:27  oGMo: look at toot. It has both the package docstring and the README.
16:13:49  I'm wondering what I'm doing wrong with SLIME.  In the SLIME REPL, I enter (foo "bar").  FOO is an undefined function, so I get an error and a list of restarts.I choose "1: [RETURN
16:14:11  -VALUE] and try to enter a value, but it just keep giving me errors.
16:14:12  gigamonkey: yeah, was looking at the source where it was opening README
16:14:18  Is there an escape sequence or something?
16:14:30  SurlyFrog: you could use "q" instead to exit the debugger.
16:14:44 lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has joined #lisp
16:14:54  Yeah, I know thatI'm just wondering why entering (+  1 2) doesn't return 3.
16:15:04  as the value,
16:15:15  Does it need to be quoted or something???
16:15:27  I don't know. My CL implementation does not offer that restart.
16:15:56  SurlyFrog: #.(+ 1 2)
16:16:31  SurlyFrog: probably a bug in slime.
16:16:33  nyef: hmmmwhat is that syntax? :-)
16:17:07 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
16:18:05  It's for eval-at-read-time.
16:18:26  Yeah, that doesn't really seem to work either.
16:18:42  Basically, trying to execute that restart gives me:
16:18:51  enter an expression which will evaluate to a new value: #.(+ 1 2)
16:18:58  attempt to unread too many characters on
16:18:58  #
16:18:58     [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR]
16:19:13  SurlyFrog: as i said, it is most likely a bug in slime.
16:19:26  SurlyFrog: you may want to ask support@franz.com if they can offer a fix.
16:19:50  H4ns: I think you are right.  It works running just alisp from a regular command prompt.
16:20:23  I guess I was just wondering if I was missing some magic incantation to make it work in SLIME.  Sounds like I'm not.  Thanks
16:21:20 _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.117.147] has joined #lisp
16:22:10 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-67-79.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp
16:23:40 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
16:23:47 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
16:25:33 -!- H4ns [~user@g231222045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:26:30 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.117.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
16:28:25 hagish [~hagish@g230236246.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp
16:30:11 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.100] has joined #lisp
16:31:29  ThomasH: what error do you get in LW on TEA?  Can you provide a patch?
16:31:42 -!- lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:32:19 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:32:30  pjb: I can take a quick look. I'm not actually using TEA, I just quickloaded your stuff to look at your reader code and the compilation of TEA failed.
16:33:15 -!- TDT [~user@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
16:33:20  ThomasH: you can use my reader to read without interning symbol, by setting a different (readtable-parse-token *readtable*) function.
16:35:01  See com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.reader::parse-token for an example of such a function.
16:35:22  I'd appreciate if you have any comment about this mechanism; I should write a CDR for it...
16:35:51  pjb: Could your reader form the basis for parsing the sexp in a buffer, indicating whether it is valid CL, and return an abstract representation of the structure?
16:36:06  Absolutely.
16:36:33 -!- chenbing [~user@60.186.242.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
16:36:48  Now, of course, most of lisp reading is done by reader macros.  The only thing we need from the core lisp reader algorithm is the readtable-parse-token hook.
16:37:04 TDT [~user@dhcpw81fff959.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp
16:37:18 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.164.107] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:37:22 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:37:23  pjb: Good. I took a quick look at it last night and was a little overwhelmed. Let me finish what I'm working on real quick and I'll get back to looking at it.
16:37:39  ok.
16:38:11  pjb: The first thing I'll do is quickload your libraries and paste the error.
16:39:16  gigamonkey: I have a whistle question if your around
16:39:18  heh, why does sbcl return a default docstring for struct accessors?
16:39:53  gigamonkey: Namely, what is the preferered way to stop the server?
16:39:54  "Return whether debug-block represents elsewhere code." is cute too
16:40:11 ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp
16:42:57 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV]
16:44:59 -!- erhz [~erhz@27.Red-79-154-73.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
16:45:57 -!- silenius [~silenius@i59F773D8.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:46:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.3.122] has joined #lisp
16:46:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.3.122] has quit [Changing host]
16:46:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp
16:46:32  oGMo: SBCL struct accessors are closures, to start with.
16:47:07 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp
16:47:34  oGMo: And, in fact, it was only relatively recently that SBCL could store separate docstrings for closures.
16:48:17 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-66.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp
16:48:28  gigamonkey: it looks like maybe this would work: (toot:stop-acceptor (car (whistle::acceptors whistle::*whistle-server*)))
16:48:58 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:49:09 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@122.167.201.211] has joined #lisp
16:49:09 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@122.167.201.211] has quit [Changing host]
16:49:09 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp
16:49:23  yeah looking at the hyperspec there's nothing about documentation for struct slots
16:49:57 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
16:51:08 -!- oudeis_ [~oudeis@host86-169-53-226.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
16:51:34 oudeis_ [~oudeis@host86-161-121-176.range86-161.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp
16:51:54  As slots, possibly not. Is there a guarantee that the accessors (at least the readers) are functions?
16:52:05  And then is there a guarantee for documentation for named functions?
16:53:24  the documentation does say "reader function", but i don't know if there is anything specific about that language
16:53:25  (function accessor) yes.  But (accessor structure) may be open coded.
16:57:25 -!- xan_ [~xan@243.Red-88-1-40.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]
16:59:20 jewel [~jewel@196.215.168.225] has joined #lisp
16:59:23 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:02:27 -!- akovalenko [~akovalenk@95.73.125.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:02:35 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp
17:02:49 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.197.238.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
17:03:34  nyef: i'm relatively sure that struct accessors need not be functions
17:03:38 akovalenko [~akovalenk@95.73.107.89] has joined #lisp
17:04:01   nikodemus: (function accessor) should return a function I think.
17:04:05  or maybe i'm just thinking about the writers
17:04:06  Mmm. And I'm sufficiently uninterested that I'm not going to check.
17:04:17  nyef: oGMo: nikodemus: FWIW I'm not particularly keen on CL:DESCRIBE with SBCL 1.0.47.1 to 1.0.51.x The return value for accessor methods specialized on a class pick up the slots docstring (if present) -- why would the documentation for the class' slot neccesarily be relevant to the accessor method?
17:04:31  Yeah, I seem to recall that the /writers/ aren't required to be functions.
17:05:16  mon_key: please put it up an launchpad then, with an explanation of the behaviour you would like to see -- and an example of objectionable output
17:05:25  Yes. Writer are not necessarily (setf functions).
17:05:28  Reader functions are defined to read the components of the structure. For each slot name, there is a corresponding reader function with the name structure-name-slot-name. This function reads the contents of that slot. Each reader function takes one argument, which is an instance of the structure type. setf can be used with any of these reader functions to alter the slot contents.
17:06:27 -!- jewel [~jewel@196.215.168.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:08:22 mon_key` [~user@69.64.7.202] has joined #lisp
17:08:45 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:09:29 osa1 [~sinan@88.243.111.34] has joined #lisp
17:10:13 -!- TDT [~user@dhcpw81fff959.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
17:11:03 -!- passionke [~Administr@122.233.76.129] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:11:54 lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has joined #lisp
17:12:05 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.147.52] has quit [Quit: rme]
17:12:23 -!- msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has quit [Quit: msponge]
17:13:08 TDT [~user@dhcpw81fff959.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp
17:13:55 -!- tarmil [~user@business-178-48-18-229.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:14:05 tarmil [~user@business-178-48-18-229.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp
17:14:32 -!- waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has quit [Quit: waltwhite]
17:15:24 waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has joined #lisp
17:17:15 -!- TDT [~user@dhcpw81fff959.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:18:23 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #lisp
17:18:37 spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp
17:23:54 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:24:11 antifuchs [~foobar@guestnet.franz.com] has joined #lisp
17:24:35 -!- bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
17:25:50 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
17:29:29 -!- sipo [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:29:40 TDT [~user@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp
17:30:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:32:49 -!- osa1 [~sinan@88.243.111.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:32:54 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has joined #lisp
17:33:21 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp
17:34:15 osa1 [~sinan@88.243.111.34] has joined #lisp
17:35:39  gigamonkey: you got about 35 downloads of toot yesterday
17:35:58  Xach: how many of Manifest. My guess is about 35.
17:37:28  yep
17:37:35  mon_key`: I need to add a function for stopping whistle.
17:37:52  I'll be announcing it on my whistle stop tour.
17:38:03 sipo [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
17:38:44 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:39:07 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:39:11 [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp
17:41:36 -!- cnl [~cnl@95.106.65.176] has quit [Quit: leaving]
17:42:03 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:42:48 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-67-79.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep]
17:43:35 bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp
17:43:41 -!- pnathan [~Adium@98.145.116.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:43:53 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
17:44:54  whistle stop tour of toot?
17:45:05 -!- gz [gz@clozure-123267BA.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout]
17:45:45 yates [c05b42bd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.91.66.189] has joined #lisp
17:47:31  If I have two lists of the same length, L1 and L2, how could I form a third list of the form ((list (nth 1 L1) (nth 1 L2)) (list (nth 2 L1) (nth 2 L2)) (list (nth 3 L1) (nth 3 L2)) ...) ?
17:47:34 -!- TDT [~user@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
17:48:00  yates: (mapcan 'list l1 l2)
17:48:14  Oh, mapcar probably.
17:48:25  ah! i thought there would be something predefined. thansk Xach !
17:48:46  (cdr (mapcar 'list l1 l2))
17:48:51 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.100] has joined #lisp
17:49:23  Don't forget the cdr to skip to (nth 1 ...).
17:50:12  Xach: but mapcar takes a single list as second argument - how can you pass it two lists?
17:50:25  No, it doesn't.
17:50:29  yates: clhs mapcar
17:50:34  This is not emacs lisp...
17:50:37  yates: mapcar takes one or more list.
17:50:38 -!- oudeis_ [~oudeis@host86-161-121-176.range86-161.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
17:50:45  lists, rather.
17:50:53  yates: the arity of the function has to match the number of lists you pass.
17:50:57  pjb: ah, but i'm writing in elisp
17:51:02  yates: this is not an elisp channel.
17:51:16  yates: then (require 'cl) and use mapcar*.
17:51:20 chromaticwt [d0360487@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.54.4.135] has joined #lisp
17:51:56  Xach: i thought this was a channel to discuss lisp, no matter what implementation?
17:52:08  pjb: ah - good solution!
17:52:51  yates: Nope.
17:52:55  yates see topic
17:53:26  yates: #emacs is a better place to discuss elisp.
17:53:51  Does Allegro's modern mode reveal itself in *features*
17:54:02  ok, then i'll metamorph into a cl question (via (require 'cl)) - in which case you've answered my question.
17:55:07 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has joined #lisp
17:57:01 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp
17:57:45  Or if anyone has a mlisp running, what does this evaluate to: (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable nil)))
17:57:46             (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :invert)
17:57:46             (mapcar #'string (list (read-from-string "foo")
17:57:46                                    (read-from-string "FOO")
17:57:49                                    (read-from-string "Foo"))))
17:58:07 kilon [~kilon@ppp-94-64-191-100.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp
17:58:08 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:58:44 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
17:58:49 *Xach* can much more easily cut & paste from paste.lisp.org
17:58:58  works beautifully in elisp via cl.el
17:59:10  thank you
17:59:57 -!- gaidal [gaidal@113.119.24.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:59:59 -!- dmiles_a3k [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-49-126.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:00:07 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
18:00:12 gaidal [gaidal@113.119.24.90] has joined #lisp
18:01:05 mathrick [~mathrick@2.104.97.153] has joined #lisp
18:01:20  Is there an option to make alisp a mlisp?
18:01:29 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
18:02:07 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp
18:03:14 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
18:03:15 -!- spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg_]
18:03:54 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.132] has joined #lisp
18:03:59  pjb: you mean while it's running. I don't think so.
18:04:01  alisp, mlisp, elisp...
18:04:30  gigamonkey: as a cli option? I only have alisp.
18:04:32 steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp
18:08:42 -!- lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:10:28 lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has joined #lisp
18:13:28 -!- lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:14:40 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h234n6c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
18:14:41 add^_^ [~add^_^@h59n2c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp
18:16:52 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-49-126.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp
18:16:53 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
18:18:48 stickycake [~stickycak@ool-ade56036.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp
18:18:55 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@ool-ade56036.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp
18:19:02  pjb: i don't think mlisp is free
18:19:55 
 gigamonkey: I just checked out your manifest screencast and I *like* it! :)  But, when package names are long, the layout on the page looks bad as package names are written on top of the others :(
18:19:59 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
18:21:03 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:21:20 -!- SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:21:57 erhz [~erhz@27.Red-79-154-73.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp
18:23:18 -!- tfb_ [~tfb@92.41.17.133.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
18:24:10 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp
18:28:07  is dsl the biggest reason to use lisp , or the fact that it can expand / modify its own syntax ?
18:28:44  stassats`: I remember having it in an older free version.
18:28:58  kilon: both.
18:29:03  for me, it's the interactive&iterative development (-:
18:29:37  kilon: don't forget CLOS&MOP, etc.
18:29:43  it so hard to compare smalltalk with lisp as both seem to follow very similar paradigm , so i try to see what more lisp can offer me
18:29:49 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-191-12.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp
18:30:09  a vibrant community, #lisp
18:30:42  I like the secret alien technology
18:31:00  yes the vibrant community part is clearly what smalltalk lacks
18:31:11  kilon: Smalltalk was written in Lisp at the beginning.  Not the reverse.
18:31:15  kilon: Haskell was written in Lisp at the beginning.  Not the reverse.
18:31:17  and so on.
18:31:34  kilon: emacs + slime so nice.
18:31:41  nikodemus: it looks like acl-compat has taken a hit from recent sbcl changes
18:31:59  yes alan key the creator of smalltalk said it clear that he was largely influenced by lisp
18:32:02  +is
18:32:24  nikodemus: specifically, it has (sb-thread::with-spinlock (*atomic-spinlock*) ...)
18:33:00  It seems to be croaking in some way on that.
18:33:05  *sigh*
18:33:26  the spinlock API gives a full compile-time warning nowadays
18:33:35  there is one thing i dont get, if lisp is so cool at modifing itself, when not make lisp dialects that compile to c code or java code , so people wont need to know lisp to read your code
18:33:59  *then why not
18:34:02 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.187.36] has joined #lisp
18:34:04  it still /works/ (just uses mutexes under the hood), but well...
18:34:05  kilon: if there was such a thing, would you know how to find it?
18:34:22  kilon: generated code is unreadable.
18:34:40  nikodemus: It doesn't quite seem to - I get: "The function ACL-COMPAT.MP::*ATOMIC-SPINLOCK* is undefined."
18:35:19  well i have read about people that made lisp parsers for c and html and seem to be happy with them, but i have not figured out why this is not popular
18:35:23  nikodemus: you can see what i'm seeing with (ql:quickload "wuwei-examples" :verbose t)
18:35:25  kilon: there are such things, but what pkhuong said
18:35:42  pkhuong: sounds reasonable
18:35:52  kilon: actually, many people use Lisp to generate code in other languages
18:36:04  many?
18:36:07  kilon: actually implementing a whole lisp that compiles to another language is a different thing
18:36:16  stassats`: Sure. Machine language comes to mind... :-P
18:36:25  not a whole, just enough to be flexible
18:36:32  or to produce readable code
18:36:33  nyef: that's what every compiler language does
18:36:37  every second
18:36:41 jewel [~jewel@196.215.168.225] has joined #lisp
18:36:44  s/langauge//
18:36:49  stassats`: if we define a few as 3, and many as more than a few ...
18:36:50  Yup!
18:36:52  stassats`: for some time I was surprised how often some private code turns up that covers some limited variant of another language just to make it easier for the lisper
18:37:07  p_l: how often?
18:37:24  stassats`: "whenever I asked that question something new would show up"
18:37:30  just not public
18:37:43  how many times did you ask that question?
18:38:04  does parenscript have a decent following?
18:38:10  several. Haven't counted, but >7 different systems were encountered
18:38:15 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-120-66.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
18:38:29 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA09D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp
18:38:35  some C, some PHP, some VHDL (or was it Verilog?), Java, etc.
18:39:14 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has joined #lisp
18:39:34 BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.197.245.79] has joined #lisp
18:40:16  if one can write a lisp intepreter in just 100 lines, is that hard to make it compile to code of another language ?
18:40:56 <|3b|> a 100 line lisp probably isn't full CL, and probably isn't a very good compiler
18:41:13  of course the problem is how you map libraries , standard and third party
18:41:15  kilon: getting *Common* Lisp compiled to C without subsetting it and getting good performance and runtime environment is much harder
18:41:23 <|3b|> it isn't very hard to write the equivalent of a 100 line lisp that compiles to other languages though
18:41:49  p_l: i mean it turns your lisp code to c code and then you compile it
18:41:55 <|3b|> isn't that even an example for the pretty printer?
18:42:09 <|3b|> (printing lisp code as pascal or something i mean)
18:42:10  not a lisp intepreter
18:42:14 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
18:43:00  interprets are boring
18:43:08  interpreters
18:43:08 <|3b|> ecl compiles CL code by way of a C compiler, don't expect it to be readable C though
18:43:09  kilon: look into ECLs code
18:43:11  this way you could "hide" lisp from your boss , no ?
18:43:29 *|3b|* would rather just avoid bosses from whom things need hidden
18:43:34  hehehe
18:43:35  kilon: the only system I know which was done to make readable code was LinJ
18:43:52 <|3b|> parenscript generates reasonably readable JS
18:44:05 tbatchelli- [~user@ppp-71-139-3-108.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp
18:44:22  p_l: thank you , what i was looking for
18:44:37  thank you |3b| too
18:44:50  nikodemus: i don't quite understand the error. does it make sense to you?
18:45:05  I think ThinLisp generated readable code too.
18:45:23  But it's probably not even maintained anymore.
18:45:30  so it seems there are alot of efforts towards that direction
18:46:20 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.120.39] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com]
18:47:22 -!- osa1 [~sinan@88.243.111.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
18:47:22 -!- yates [c05b42bd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.91.66.189] has quit [*.net *.split]
18:47:22 -!- chromaticwt [d0360487@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.54.4.135] has quit [*.net *.split]
18:47:22 -!- ThomasH [4b1349ad@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [*.net *.split]
18:47:50  kilon: mostly localized for specific jobs, and more of DSLs that generated other language
18:48:20  yates:  Were you looking for me some time ago?
18:48:33  p_l: that sounds reasonable especially if they are made by a single person, making a complete language compiler is not a small effort
18:49:07 <|3b|> making a compiler is easy, making a /good/ one is hard :p
18:49:27 <|3b|> (also large libraries like CL has get pretty tedious)
18:49:35 *dl* has been wondering why people seem to think that "lisp is hard"... Why do the parens put so many folks off???  I re-wrote a user's code in CL and made it run approximately 6000 times faster (in wallclock time which meant the code ran in several seconds instead of several hours), but while the user was convinced to change languages from BASIC, he did *not* want to learn Lisp!
18:49:48  by compiler i dont mean something that compiles lisp to machine code but something that compiles lisp to another language
18:50:03  kilon: a lot of those that I heard of were cases where the lisper wanted to make it easier to deal with outside requirements, like deploying on PHP
18:50:32  kilon: it's usually hard to compile CL to another language, at least if you want a compatible CL.
18:50:33  or building IP cores, but that probably covers more of the target language
18:51:02  by the way i am not looking for a way to avoid learning lisp, quite the opposite i just try to find out where the theory ends and reality starts
18:51:26  erhz: i dont care for a full implementation
18:51:28  In fact I would say that it's hard to compile most high-level languages to another language because there is always some feature mismatch that causes compatibility problems.
18:51:36  Xach: oh snap. i made with-spinlock accidentally expand into with-lock -- which doesn't exist
18:52:08  Xach: anyways, acl-compat should use with-mutex
18:52:25  i can fix the sbcl side easy, but...
18:53:45 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving]
18:54:20  DSL really looks sweet , the ability to expand the syntax ... i am just wondering about the practical application, is it just syntactic sugar making more readable and also something other languages can fake but in a ugly way ? or is there much more than meets the eye ?
18:54:43  nikodemus: ok
18:55:18 <|3b|> kilon: 'just' is a lot there, don't fall into the turing tarpit
18:56:12 <|3b|> you can compile C at runtime, dlopen the result, then start calling things in it... doesn't mean you would gain the same benefit as interactively working on a lisp (or smalltalk, etc) image
18:56:31  just learn it and you will see, no description will replace first hand experience
18:57:05 <|3b|> c++ templates are turing complete... but nowhere near as nice as just metaprogramming directly in the host language like CL macros do
18:57:33  thats the plan , i am now also reading practical common lisp as well together with land of lisp , i just try to clear up the basic before i start wondering why i learn a specific feature
18:58:08  one may understand a feature but may not fully understand its usefulness and practical application
18:59:02 -!- htop [~bc@nyx.user-mode.org] has quit [Quit: leaving]
18:59:19  |3b|: the lisp image is similar to smalltalk image ? i have not seen it mentioned in the book i am ready yet
18:59:35  * I am reading
18:59:37 <|3b|> kilon: it can be, though modern usage doesn't go as far as smalltalk does
18:59:49  ok
18:59:55 <|3b|> we tend to restart it and load things from scratch once in a while rather than continually adding to 1 image forever
19:00:03 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp
19:00:08 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:00:20  so that means that I need to load all libraries to have access to them ?
19:00:30 ignas_ [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp
19:00:35 add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-41-21.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp
19:00:39 <|3b|> more or less
19:00:51  that is what I love about smalltalk that all is open in front of me at my grasp
19:00:58 <|3b|> you might save an image with stuff you use commonly, and use that as a starting point instead of the base image
19:01:10  ah very nice
19:01:31 *|3b|* doesn't usually bother with that though
19:02:05 *stassats`* bothers, because it really saves time
19:02:27 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@117.197.245.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
19:02:40 -!- add^_^ [~add^_^@h59n2c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
19:02:45 *|3b|* probably would bother if i worked on bigger projects, or on slower machines more often
19:02:47  yeah that is the point, its all those small things that add up to a huge thing
19:03:33  i use to load libraries, and not to see what closure-html spits out every time
19:03:58  heh
19:04:13 *Xach* is going to submit a patch for that sometime, but had a hard time finding all the output places
19:04:23 -!- antgreen [~user@70.50.67.239] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:04:25  the one thing that I found frustrating about python is that almost all python libraries are c libraries and I end up reading c code to understand how a library works, this does not happen with smalltalk where even the c part can be smalltalk (Slang) , i assume the same applies for lisp
19:04:48 <|3b|> CL tends to have fewer C parts of lisp libs
19:04:51  kilon: yeah
19:05:09  it beats any documentation to see the internals of a library
19:05:11 <|3b|> lots of bindings to C libs, but the bindings are in lisp, and the C lib is just wherever C libs go
19:05:12  kilon: C code is usually when the library in question is an interface to foreign library in said C code
19:05:12  i have parts written in assembly! beat that, python!
19:05:22  CL can be much higher performance than python
19:05:27 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
19:05:57  p_l: FFI , i see
19:06:31  dlowe: it is , at least compared to pure python code
19:07:01  it is not performance my problem though cause i know calls to c , run at c speed, in any language
19:07:15 epsil [~vegard@ti0145a380-1822.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp
19:07:16  well not true, but closer to c speed
19:07:19  calls to c have overhead
19:07:23  kilon: my point is that you can have your both your low-level fast code and high-level easy code in the same language with lisp
19:07:50  dlowe: you mean FFI ?
19:08:04  kilon: no, I mean low-level fast lisp
19:08:08 <|3b|> CL has some good compilers
19:08:22  but not sufficiently smart
19:08:28 <|3b|> when used properly they can get pretty close to C
19:08:33  now, to get it that fast, it kinda looks like C too
19:08:33  dlowe: ok it seems I have not discovered that Lisp feature yet
19:08:44 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp
19:09:01  I only know about Lisp FFI so far
19:09:10  kilon: it involves being smart about not consing and declaring all your types appropriately
19:09:51  dlowe: oh I see now what you mean, yes I read about this, type checking during runtim
19:10:15  SBCL's support for modular arithmetic is helpful too.
19:10:21 <|3b|> sbcl for example does a lot of type inference, so if you tell it a few types it can generate good code
19:11:00 <|3b|> using machine opcodes rather than generic function calls, avoiding type checks, etc
19:11:05  sap-refs are helpful as well
19:12:01  pjb: I can paste the TEA error from LW on Windows now, if you are available.
19:13:03  are there a tool like Nativeboost for squeak, which allows to generate and execute assembly code at the runtime ?
19:13:10  *is there
19:13:27  in short interactive assembly
19:13:32  yes, many implementations provide one
19:14:55  very very impressive
19:15:02 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@2.104.97.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
19:15:18 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)]
19:19:13 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp
19:19:42 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-234.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp
19:20:20  nikodemus: do you want to reach out to kmr on the spinlock issue?
19:21:53 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-29.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
19:24:59  gigamonkey: OK. will keep my eyes peeled for the whistle stop tour :)
19:25:16 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp
19:26:03  Xach: can you send me an email so i remember? ETOOMANYBALLSINTHEAIR
19:27:22  Ok
19:30:03  ThomasH: ACK
19:30:39  pjb: What does that error tell you and do you want me to try anything?
19:33:44  Well, looks like a bug in LW.  TEA code is honest pure CL code, nothing really fancy.
19:33:57  Since it dumps registers, it doesn't look good.
19:34:09 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
19:35:03  ThomasH: can you report it to LW, with TEA sources?
19:35:18 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
19:35:58  pjb: Yes, I can do that.
19:36:13 -!- tbatchelli- [~user@ppp-71-139-3-108.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:36:41 tbatchelli [~user@ppp-71-139-3-108.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp
19:37:16  Their free version is only 32-bit and didn't work on my 64-bit system last time I tried.
19:38:06  pjb: Oh, I didn't realize that it was only 32-bit, but now that you mention it, that makes sense. You have to spring for the enterprise version to get 64-bit.
19:38:41  That's a bit antiquated to think of 64-bit as being "enterprise" software
19:38:54  dlowe: Agreed.
19:38:59 *pjb* has got to go. Good night!
19:39:08  pjb: Good night.
19:39:34  good night pjb
19:40:09  dream of alien technology ;)
19:40:55 mathrick [~mathrick@2.104.64.63] has joined #lisp
19:41:50 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@2.104.64.63] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:42:08  gigamonkey: Would be nice if manifest::names took a keyword which would allow finding all internal (non-inheritted) symbols of a package, i.e. not just those exported.
19:42:08 -!- benny [~benny@i577A21F3.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
19:42:37 mathrick [~mathrick@2.104.64.63] has joined #lisp
19:44:04 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA09D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
19:44:41 *dlowe* thinks the alien technology schtick is bad press
19:46:31  dlowe: how so?
19:46:59 -!- steevy [~steevy@91-67-42-157-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:48:27  humans are panicky herd animals? Most of them are attracted to words like "easy", "effective", "low-cost", "a safe bet"
19:48:40  not "alien", "weird", "strange"
19:49:08  true. the salamander is ok, though?
19:49:39  lisp doesn't lend itself well to mascots
19:49:41 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@2.104.64.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
19:49:47  I think that's fine
19:49:57  humans do like mascots though
19:50:10 realitygrill [~realitygr@64.134.162.237] has joined #lisp
19:50:23 -!- ljos [~mozzyb@login1.uib.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
19:50:51  well, get O'Reilly to make a lisp book and we'll have a real mascot
19:50:52 gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has joined #lisp
19:50:53  I find the "alien technology" thing funny, but have never liked the alien, looks amateurish. The salamander is very well done, but I've never been able to make the connection between it an lisp.
19:51:03  after all, that's now perl got its camel
19:51:08  how
19:51:26 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp
19:51:28  Parry the Paren: "Hi! I see you're trying to write a macro. Would you like me to create some gensyms for you?"
19:52:13  http://lisp-book.org/
19:52:24 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?]
19:52:36  The lisp emu?
19:53:07 <|3b|> isn't the salamander parens?
19:53:08  gigamonkey: also be nice if manifest/manifets.css td.docs had provisions for not loosing the formatting of docstrings. It kinda defeats the purpose of providing docs with properly indented lisp forms if the indentation is lost...
19:53:23  dlowe: As long as it's not a dodo...
19:54:07 <|3b|> ah, i guess it is horizontal, so probably not
19:56:42 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #lisp
19:57:34  lisp is a plastic language that's easily composed.  Its logo should be a Lego brick
19:57:57  A lambda made from Legos.
19:59:03 -!- waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has quit [Quit: waltwhite]
20:00:11 waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has joined #lisp
20:02:51 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-123267BA.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz]
20:05:01 knob [~knob@genesis.ballesterhermanos.com] has joined #lisp
20:05:13  Good afternoon everyone =)
20:05:33  Good afternoon, knob. How are you?
20:05:39  Super!
20:05:46  Getting a break from work
20:05:54  =) ... happy it's Friday
20:06:12 oudeis [~oudeis@94.197.127.210.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp
20:06:13 -!- Shin-LaC [~LaC@adsl-69-211-96-67.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
20:06:33  Yay, friday!
20:10:34 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.10.39] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:10:49 -!- cmoore_ [~hydo@c-71-227-138-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: cmoore_]
20:12:11 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-240-100.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
20:15:50 msponge [~msponge@31-35-77.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp
20:15:55 mathrick [~mathrick@2.109.73.201] has joined #lisp
20:17:07 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:19:38 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: sleeping]
20:22:07 -!- stickycake [~stickycak@ool-ade56036.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:23:26 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp
20:23:26 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@94.197.127.210.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:24:33 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp
20:24:39 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@2.109.73.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20:26:33 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20:28:29 oudeis [~oudeis@94.197.127.210.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp
20:30:27 -!- jewel [~jewel@196.215.168.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:30:30 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp
20:34:22 chromaticwt [~kvirc@m870436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp
20:34:27 yates [c05e5c0b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.94.92.11] has joined #lisp
20:34:36  how do you concatenate lists?
20:34:56  ... with scotch tape, why?
20:35:14  yates: The obscurely-named (concatenate 'list ...)
20:35:19  Or that.
20:40:04 -!- ignas_ [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20:40:32  Okay, I'm gone for the afternoon/evening.
20:40:35 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.]
20:41:06  Hello, I would like to ask a possibly obvious question; (ql:update-all-dists) does it actuall update everything because mine is jsut checking 1 dist?  Google couldn't answer my question.  Thanks
20:41:35  (ql:quickload et. al that works to update
20:42:06 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.92.181] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:42:28 lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.80.64] has joined #lisp
20:42:56  cpc26: there is only one dist.
20:43:03  cpc26: so, updating 1 is updating them all.
20:43:41  a "dist" is a bucket of project "release"s.
20:43:58  No, the terminology isn't documented, you didn't miss anything online.
20:45:18 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-127-87.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp
20:48:12 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@2.129.76.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:48:38 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@200.16.144.226] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6]
20:49:26  thanks!
20:50:54 mathrick [~mathrick@0x5ebd0bdb.terminal.tdcmobil.dk] has joined #lisp
20:51:11 lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has joined #lisp
20:51:18 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2A31.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
20:51:22 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@0x5ebd0bdb.terminal.tdcmobil.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:51:32 iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp
20:51:45 mathrick [~mathrick@0x5ebd0bdb.terminal.tdcmobil.dk] has joined #lisp
20:52:32  Xach: so at what point are releases updated?
20:53:09 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp
20:53:22  is there something like gensymp?
20:53:29  felideon: i usually try to update and build everything once a day, and try to bake the updates into a new dist once per month.
20:53:34  kennyd: what would that tell you?
20:53:48 -!- slyrus_ is now known as slyrus
20:54:02  if symbol was created by gensym function
20:54:03  kennyd: "gensym" is not a real type
20:54:10 <|3b|> gensym just makes normal symbols, that don't happen to have been interned
20:54:12  kennyd: no, there is nothing like that.
20:54:30 <|3b|> you can intern them, or make uninterned symbols other ways
20:54:45 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@0x5ebd0bdb.terminal.tdcmobil.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:54:56  ok thanks
20:55:27 mathrick [~mathrick@0x5ebd0bdb.terminal.tdcmobil.dk] has joined #lisp
20:56:24 <|3b|> you could check for symbols without a home package, not sure when that would help though
20:57:03  kennyd: how did you come to wonder about gensymp?
20:57:52  Xach: sorry, I was interrupted as I was trying to clarify. what I meant was, locally what causes releases to be upgraded? (ql:update-client) ?
20:58:12 nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-240-100.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp
20:59:41 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
21:00:17 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp
21:01:23  felideon: (ql:update-dist "quicklisp") is one way
21:02:28 -!- lbc [~quassel@h198.natout.aau.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:02:43  xach - is there a cool slime interface to l1sp.com?
21:02:55  Xach I wanted to do something with the gensym symbols that my macro generated. but now that I think about it it wouldn't work. just because a symbol is gensym doesn't mean my macro generated it
21:03:06  bhyde: I don't think so.
21:03:11 coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
21:03:11 -!- coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host]
21:03:11 coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp
21:03:14  kennyd: very true
21:04:21  yates: Were you looking for me?
21:05:25 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@64.134.162.237] has quit [Quit: realitygrill]
21:08:16 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@94.197.127.210.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:10:45  Xach: hmm, I think I'm not explaining my confusion correctly. For example, if I have quickloaded hunchentoot 1.2.1, and then 1.2.2 came out. at what point would hunchentoot 1.2.2 be fetched? and at what point would the txt files under installed/ point to it?
21:11:46 -!- msponge [~msponge@31-35-77.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: msponge]
21:12:31  s/came out/was available through quicklisp/
21:12:59 mathrick_ [~mathrick@0x5ebd0bdb.terminal.tdcmobil.dk] has joined #lisp
21:13:09  might be a dumb question though, just curiosity.
21:13:33 hrolf [~hrolf@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp
21:14:03  felideon: some month after 1.2.2 came out, (ql:update-dist "quicklisp") would get a dist with 1.2.2 in it.
21:14:28  hello. is there something like a filter function in standard lib?  (filter 'plusp '(-2 -1 1 2)) should return (1 2)
21:15:09  (loop for num in '(-2 -1 1 2) when (plusp num) collect it)
21:15:29 -!- knob [~knob@genesis.ballesterhermanos.com] has quit [Quit:  HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Wibbly Wobbly IRC]
21:15:37 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@0x5ebd0bdb.terminal.tdcmobil.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
21:15:38  hrolf: (remove-if-not 'plusp ...)
21:15:51  hrolf: Maybe that's not quite how you want to express it, but you could always wrap that in a function or macro.
21:16:00  thanks to both
21:16:29  remove-if-not is exactly what i asked. but that loop line is interesting too, didn't know about "it"
21:16:41  Xach: oh ok. so updating a dist is what updates all the releases
21:16:54  I see what you mean.
21:17:01  hrolf: Yeah, loop is anaphoric. Not sure if that is a feature or a bug.
21:17:24  heh
21:17:29 <|3b|> less of a bug than the general case of anaphora
21:17:39  felideon: yes
21:18:53 <|3b|> since it is part of the syntax rather than a binding that might conflict when you nested them
21:20:11  so if someone was lazy enough to not fix weblocks, they could create a new dist that included an older hunchentoot?
21:20:13 <|3b|> (though you could argue 'it' being part of LOOP syntax and thus limited to a few specific uses might be more of a bug than a feature)
21:21:18 -!- coyo is now known as gidva
21:21:33 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
21:21:39 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp
21:21:40  felideon: yes. or go back to the older dist (which is still available) and has all the supporting libraries of a few months ago.
21:21:57 *Xach* parenthetizes wrong, and must jet
21:22:00  oh interesting.
21:22:09  felideon: did you see "going back in (dist) time"?
21:22:17  http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/08/going-back-in-dist-time.html is it
21:22:21  I did not.
21:22:39 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
21:22:47  Not interested in weblocks or anything, but this could come in handy. :)
21:23:00  am I right in thinking that I don't need a gensym instead of X in the loop?  (defmacro foo (..) `(....  ,@(loop for X below 10 .. ))
21:23:51 <|3b|> depens on if that .. has any , in it
21:23:56 -!- pokes_ is now known as pokes
21:24:07 <|3b|> the .. in the LOOP, not the one in the arglist that is
21:24:18 <|3b|> actually, nevermind... you don't need it
21:24:25 *|3b|* missed the ,@
21:24:51 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp
21:24:58 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.100] has joined #lisp
21:25:07  thanks, I thought so but I wasn't sure
21:27:11 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
21:29:44 kfizz [~kyle@74.197.120.228] has joined #lisp
21:33:27  HI all. If anyone has some time to help a noob, I'd greatly appreciate it. This is for a final project that must be done in lisp and everyone in the class in new to the language so I really don't have anywhere else to turn for help. My assignment is to write a scanner for this dfa: http://imgur.com/7XFlx My current source is here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126389
21:34:13  The issue I'm having is trying to handle the comments part of the dfa. I know there needs to be some sort of peek-next-character or something, but I'm not sure the best way to implement that. I know everyone is busy, but anyone willing to help is greatly appreciated.
21:34:48 CaZe_ [~CaZe@unaffiliated/y354c] has joined #lisp
21:35:35 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.187.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:35:44 mr_machina [~user@c-71-233-162-89.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
21:36:08 -!- CaZe [~CaZe@unaffiliated/y354c] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
21:36:08 -!- CaZe_ is now known as CaZe
21:36:45  antifuchs, felideon: you here?
21:37:04  T!
21:37:36 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-41-21.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_]
21:37:43  yo, can you fire up an mlisp and check something for me. Stand by for paste.
21:38:18  http://paste.lisp.org/display/126390
21:39:12  Speaking of pastes, is there a reason why after you submit a paste you just get a blank page instead of something useful like the paste itself?
21:39:20 <|3b|> bot is stuck
21:39:37 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:39:48 <|3b|> and webpage gets stuck waiting for bot to announce it (is my third-hand understanding of the problem)
21:40:15 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp
21:40:36 acml [~user@92.45.153.241] has joined #lisp
21:40:39 <|3b|> paste without a channel and i think you would get a useful response, but would have to set syntax highlighting language by hand
21:40:53 -!- Brendan_T [~Brendan_T@2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fecf:b0fd] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
21:40:54 mathrick [~mathrick@2.111.244.163] has joined #lisp
21:40:55 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@0x5ebd0bdb.terminal.tdcmobil.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:40:56 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp
21:41:06  I see. So if the bot gets healthy then were back to having pastes announced which is what I really want in the first place.
21:41:47 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:41:54  ThomasH: I always thought you were an experienced lisper, but after you suggesting using LOOP and maybe wrapping it in a macro when the unambiguously best answer was to use REMOVE-IF-NOT, I'm reconsidering ;P
21:42:33 _mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp
21:42:39  Xach: Re "You do specialize in making things that nobody wants.": I'm working on the blind spots of CL; it's expected that you'd miss the point of what I'm doing, you damn fool. But thanks for the kind words nonetheless; I take them to heart.
21:44:25 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:44:31  antifuchs: t
21:44:34  err
21:44:48 -!- gidva is now known as bandu
21:44:50  wrapping it in a function*
21:45:09  gigamonkey: ("FOO" "foo" "Foo")
21:45:25 hydo [~hydo@216.160.113.173] has joined #lisp
21:45:41  gigamonkey: ("FOO" "foo" "Foo")
21:45:42 -!- hydo [~hydo@216.160.113.173] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:45:44 cmoore_ [~hydo@216.160.113.173] has joined #lisp
21:45:47  antifuchs, felideon: thanks.
21:45:49  felideon: ^5
21:45:57  (:
21:46:05  debugging by data point (:
21:46:22 -!- mr_machina [~user@c-71-233-162-89.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:46:31 Brendan_T [~Brendan_T@2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fecf:b0fd] has joined #lisp
21:47:00 mr_machina [~user@c-71-233-162-89.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
21:47:43 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
21:47:47  we need a genera-like interpreter we can use in slime-lisp-implementations
21:47:58  kfizz: #lisp doesn't help in exercises.  though i don't think i'm doing anything wrong here.   i haven't read the assignment, nor read much of the code, but i'm guessing you haven't looked at http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_peek_c.htm
21:48:01  for ultimate testing
21:48:14 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp
21:48:30 <_3b> madnificent: sure it does, it just tends to be as unhelfully helpful as possible when it does :p
21:48:37 <_3b> *unhelpfully
21:48:45  _3b: :D
21:49:12  madnificent, thanks for the info. I'll check that out and see where I can go from there.
21:49:17  _3b: i don't think there's much wrongdoing in pointing towards the functions which exist, if one already knows that they want to use them.  but yes, we're awesome at that :)
21:49:24 -!- YuleAthas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:49:50  Oh and does mlisp put anything on *features* to identify itself?
21:50:53  (readtable-case *readtable*) is :preserve on mlisp
21:51:10  kfizz: good luck with the assignment!  also, i think you can make the cond form a *lot* shorter, by translating the comment you entered right before the comment into code that mimics the sentence, instead of listing all options.
21:51:31  and presumably (string= (symbol-name :foo) "foo") ?
21:51:57  gigamonkey: that's read-time readtable case vs. runtime, but yeah
21:52:02  gigamonkey: you can type (string= :foo "foo") as per clhs (if i understood correctly)
21:52:09  I'm trying to decide whether to punish mlisp users with ALLCAPS urls in manifest.
21:52:20  madnificent: you can. I was just being explicit.
21:52:23  ok
21:52:28  gigamonkey: heh
21:52:31 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-237-51.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp
21:52:42  gigamonkey: is there a reason for them getting all-caps urls?
21:52:43  gigamonkey: why punish anyone at all with allcaps in urls?
21:52:44  The point being that in Common Lisp that expression => NIL
21:53:04  lower case would be much nicer looking
21:53:05  antifuchs: because I'd have to conditionalize on mlisp to do otherwise. Or be more clever than I am.
21:53:26  for allcaps in mlisp, you'll have to conditionalize, too (:
21:54:00  Right. So the easy way to have lower case is to invert the names on the way out and the way in (leaving mixed-case names as they are). In Common Lisp that gets lower-case URLs but in mlisp it'll be upper-case.
21:54:23  I don't me always all caps. Just whenever the package names are actually lowercase. Which is effectively always.
21:54:44 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-237-64.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
21:54:52 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber
21:55:06  http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/the-most-interesting-man-in-the-world (-:
21:57:56  gigamonkey: one option: /package/symbol = PACKAGE:SYMBOL, /m/package/symbol = package:symbol
21:58:40  nikodemus: sounds restful
21:59:16 *nikodemus* likes restful urls, nevermind the rest of the rest design :)
22:02:48 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp
22:03:35 -!- bandu is now known as coyo
22:04:06 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
22:04:43 sty [~quassel@bas2-toronto61-2925080352.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp
22:07:11 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde]
22:07:28 gensym` [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp
22:08:10 churib [~user@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp
22:08:36 -!- a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has quit [Quit: changing servers]
22:09:35 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV]
22:13:51 -!- duomo [~duomo@cpe-67-248-14-24.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
22:14:01 christoph_debian [~user@DSL01.212.114.250.149.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #lisp
22:14:22 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-154.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
22:15:09 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
22:15:22 a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has joined #lisp
22:15:24  Xach: is there some kind of changelog or something for buildapp somewhere?
22:15:35 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-60-84.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
22:15:36  curious what might have improved since the last version I used
22:15:38  ;-)
22:15:41 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit]
22:18:25 -!- coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
22:22:48 -!- epsil [~vegard@ti0145a380-1822.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5]
22:22:55 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@ool-ade56036.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:23:09 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
22:23:31 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]
22:23:41 -!- hrolf [~hrolf@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)]
22:24:38 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving]
22:25:35 -!- a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:26:59 mathrick_ [~mathrick@2.104.23.7] has joined #lisp
22:27:01 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@2.111.244.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
22:28:10 benny [~benny@i577A3799.versanet.de] has joined #lisp
22:28:17 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:29:56 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.25] has joined #lisp
22:30:18 msponge [~msponge@31-35-77.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp
22:30:53 -!- ASau [~user@89-178-12-247.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:31:20 ASau [~user@93-80-101-77.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp
22:31:29 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-60-84.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp
22:31:47 urandom__ [~user@p548A2BA8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp
22:35:37 -!- [SLB] [~balthasar@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: [ Close the World, Open the nExt ]]
22:37:20  christoph_debian: no, sorry. only the git log.
22:37:34  christoph_debian: i haven't changed much. i added support for relative entries in manifest files.
22:39:49 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
22:42:26  Xach: ok. git log's also not public right? at least there's no git linked from the website (I've spotted some core compression support in the source but it's not documented ;-)
22:42:55  christoph_debian: https://github.com/xach/buildapp/ actually. I should link to github in the docs.
22:43:52  oh nice :-)
22:44:45 oudeis [~oudeis@host-78-148-98-37.as13285.net] has joined #lisp
22:45:05 -!- erhz [~erhz@27.Red-79-154-73.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
22:46:48 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp
22:47:37 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
22:49:07 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp
22:49:08 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
22:49:14 -!- waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has quit [Quit: waltwhite]
22:49:28 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:50:43 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@guestnet.franz.com] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/]
22:50:47 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:51:51 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp
22:56:21 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
22:56:43 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.25] has joined #lisp
23:05:00 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving]
23:05:33 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp
23:05:46 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #lisp
23:09:28 -!- mr_machina [~user@c-71-233-162-89.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp
23:13:56 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-173-195.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp
23:15:34 -!- cmoore_ [~hydo@216.160.113.173] has quit [Quit: cmoore_]
23:16:05 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
23:23:37 nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp
23:24:33 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-127.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
23:25:01 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp
23:25:01 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host]
23:25:01 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp
23:26:26 -!- nialo- [nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
23:28:09 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
23:28:54 -!- hagish [~hagish@g230236246.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:29:15 -!- bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
23:31:23 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
23:31:47 -!- _mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
23:37:07 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@207.228.237.151] has joined #lisp
23:38:25 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
23:39:02 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
23:39:23 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec]
23:42:15 -!- bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:42:38 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.25] has joined #lisp
23:43:03 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp
23:43:03 bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp
23:46:45 snearch [~snearch@g231108214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp
23:48:32 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@207.228.237.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
23:50:44 DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@75-163-225-197.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp
23:55:21 rme [~rme@50.43.147.52] has joined #lisp