00:02:39 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 00:05:15 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:05:20 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 00:05:40 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:10:02 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.111.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:10:16 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.179.224] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 00:11:52 ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 00:12:19 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.169.95.178] has joined #lisp 00:12:19 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.169.95.178] has quit [Changing host] 00:12:19 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 00:12:52 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-9-153.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has left #lisp 00:15:41 DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@75-163-225-197.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:18 -!- ThomasH [4b1349ad@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:17:33 -!- silenius [~silenius@i59F7582B.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:24:47 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:26:05 iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:24 jaimef: i was searching for what you meant by a repl bot 00:28:20 madnificent: i think it is something that evaluates irc messages 00:31:27 sepok [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 00:32:21 Is there any way to avoid SLIME from printing out what a function returns? So if I would write (+ 5 5) in the REPL it wouldn't print 10 00:32:49 sepok: you could use (progn (+ 5 5) (values)) 00:33:48 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.12.61] has joined #lisp 00:34:10 I'm pleasantly surprised to see ";no values" instead of nil, which I expected 00:34:10 Xach: I guess I could, thanks. 00:34:30 sepok: what is the actual use case? large value printed? 00:35:01 Xach: Yup, so large that SLIME crashes (or something like that, "Lisp connection closed unexpectedly") 00:36:06 sepok: i have *print-length* set to 50 in my startup file. i usually don't want super-big results in the repl. that doesn't help with everything, but it does help. 00:36:14 sepok: is your data possibly circular? 00:36:38 Xach: It's not circular, just large. Oh right, I had forgotten about *print-length* 00:36:58 any unicode? 00:37:08 Possibly 00:38:05 encoding troule can close the connection 00:38:43 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:38:44 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:38:44 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:39:31 Hm, yeah. It closed even though I had both my *print-length* at 50 and the expression surrounded by PROGN and VALUES 00:40:51 Could always just run it without SLIME. Well! I've gotta go anyway, I'll investigate further later. 00:40:57 Thanks for the advice 00:40:59 -!- sepok [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has left #lisp 00:41:54 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 00:42:31 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-64-21.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:39 that is wacky 00:44:18 duomo [~duomo@cpe-67-248-14-24.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:44:22 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 00:51:49 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-209-14.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:56:35 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 00:56:42 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 01:02:25 Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:18 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:09:24 -!- _nix001 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:11:28 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] 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02:36:59 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B84E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:37:41 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:37:55 -!- nectu [~nectu@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:38:10 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:05 ayrnieu [~julian@50.15.104.42] has joined #lisp 02:42:15 wolfpython [~wolf@112.3.255.4] has joined #lisp 02:42:56 pnathan [~Adium@64.126.142.148] has joined #lisp 02:45:01 _mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 02:46:07 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-028.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:48:50 rme [~rme@50.43.147.52] has joined #lisp 02:49:15 Xach: cl-yahoo-finance is ready for another spin. :) 02:53:12 steveo_ [~user@CPE-65-30-181-182.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:00:05 nectuu [~nectuu@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 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[~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:46:48 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:46:51 mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has joined #lisp 03:47:47 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:50:07 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:52:27 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 03:53:14 _mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 03:54:32 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@114.222.249.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:55:07 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.158] has joined #lisp 03:57:19 Sakako [~sakako@130.56.84.180] has joined #lisp 03:58:00 Does ASDF provide a way to specify the package that a file should be compiled in? 03:58:02 Devon [~devon@ip68-98-179-28.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:26 ThomasH: this is a meaningless question. 03:58:45 Files are not compiled in a package. 03:59:00 drdo [~user@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 03:59:19 cl:*package* is used only when reading. 04:00:15 Well designed libraries should have an in-package form at the beginning of each file, so that it doesn't matter what cl:*package* is bound to when they're loaded or compiled. 04:00:27 Ralith: your recommendation yesterday of using #. actually solves my problem. Why had you said it was unadvisable? 04:00:34 Otherwise, you can just bind cl:*package* to whatever you want. 04:00:38 pjb: In the LispWorks common defsystem, there is a :package option that "The default package that files are compiled and loaded in." -> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw60/LW/html/lw-842.htm 04:01:04 pjb: So, I don't think it is totally meaningless. 04:01:12 ThomasH: you could (let ((*package* (find-package "SOME-PACKAGE"))) (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :some-system)) 04:01:27 Shaftoe: because it's dangerously conflating readtime and compiletime, and indicative of a failure of abstraction 04:01:44 But again, this should have no effect on well written libraries, since they should have a in-package form at the beginning of each file. 04:02:35 Ralith: I hear you in general. It did solve my issue though of not wanting to enumerate fields in code and store them as constants instead. 04:02:43 pjb: This is more a case of integrating ASDF with the notion that LispWorks has of systems. In particular, a system-package and (setf system-package) method. Trying to figure out how or even if that translates to any ASDF concepts. 04:02:47 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-64-21.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:02:54 Ralith: what's #. underneath? 04:03:06 eval 04:03:12 ThomasH: it would translate as: (let ((*package* (find-package system-package))) (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :some-system)) 04:03:12 at readtime 04:04:31 Shaftoe: a lot of operators are defined to have effects only at load time or at run-time, with mininal effect at compilation time. So when you do things at read-time, you may not have what you expect available in the environment, unless you use heavily eval-when. 04:04:50 -!- Devon [~devon@ip68-98-179-28.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 04:04:52 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 04:05:19 Shaftoe: the thing is, you shouldn't need to the reader to produce repetitive forms in the first place 04:05:31 pjb: yeah, I'm aware of the uncoolness of eval. 04:05:38 SsvRrwQ [~user@50.92.212.231] has joined #lisp 04:05:53 and using read with #. possible is a terrible security risk depending on your deployment 04:06:24 way easier to inject into than SQL injection attacks :) 04:06:39 Phoodus: um, this is source code 04:06:52 if the attacker can edit his source code, he's kind of screwed. 04:07:07 in any case. 04:07:11 yeah, if he's not using the reader at runtime, no problem 04:07:23 Ralith: you are right about repetitive forms. But these aren't repetitive. They are code proper (compile time defined input names), but they are many (hundreds) and I find that storing them inlined in the function definition is not good for readability. There is just this one case where I want to use a defconstant instead, and I'd like my macro to get the content of that constant instead of the constant name. 04:07:58 Shaftoe: if they aren't repetitive, then you will get absolutely no benefit from storing parts of them in a variable and using #. on it. 04:08:10 because they will have no significant common elements 04:08:19 Shaftoe: sounds like a macro would do. 04:08:20 Shaftoe: Why do you want the content rather than the name? 04:08:25 well, locating them all in 1 place could make configuration easier 04:08:31 even if they don't repeat 04:08:50 don't know if it's actually worth explaining once again. I tried yesterday and people got all up and in my hair about it =) 04:08:50 you don't need to use readtime eval to build an abstraction. 04:09:12 Shaftoe: Perhaps it's because you want to do something silly for no good reason. :) 04:09:21 and in this case, what does readtime gain you that compiletime doesn't? 04:10:55 Phoodus: let's say you have a macro that defines a function that happens to compile-time tailors some stuff. Let's say that this macro sets up an environment and does creates some code that does runtime prep work. Then you take the parameters you've defined for your function and they've already been processed. 04:11:15 now let's say that there are so many parameters SQL breaks when trying to use a 150+ parameter stored proc. 04:11:31 so you're forced to split those up into smaller segments and call multiple SPs 04:11:58 Sounds like a job ... for a macro. 04:12:08 the macro already exists and does this. 04:12:21 I am no macro expert, but sounds to me that you want a macro defining a macro 04:12:22 the macro works well for reasonable number of inputs. 04:12:36 wolfpython [~wolf@58.212.31.189] has joined #lisp 04:12:52 Why does the macro stop working well? 04:13:24 let's say my macro usage is as follows: (defpost foo (a b c) 04:13:30 and then the body form 04:13:39 ) 04:13:53 (hate to see unbalanced parens) 04:13:56 =) 04:14:03 ok, let's say that now I can do this: 04:14:22 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:14:41 (query "stored-proc-blah" a b c) in the defpost body 04:14:54 where fun "query" does The Right Thing (etc) 04:14:58 ok, so far so good. 04:15:21 bound to call-arguments-limit. 04:15:32 defpost creates a normal function adds a bunch of code before, a bunch of code after, malaxes a b and c, and if I ever execute my code, it means it's been validated. fun times. 04:15:45 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:15:50 now imagine I have (defpost foo (a b c d e ..... aa bb cc dd ff ee ) 04:15:56 Are a,b,c defined at compile time or at run-time? 04:16:07 and I want to do (query "stored-proc-1" a b c d ... j) 04:16:08 Yes, you need to generate a data structure instead. 04:16:15 Just get to the bit which doesn't work. 04:16:19 (query "stored-proc-2" k l ....) 04:16:30 this is the bit that doesn't work: 04:16:39 so a form of currying or partial calling? 04:16:41 Because of call-arguments-limit right? 04:16:50 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #lisp 04:16:58 pnq [~nick@ACA23B79.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 04:17:05 I don't want to write out 150 paramters at the top of the form as I'm defining the function, and then partition those into 7 stored procs, and rewrite them. Error prone. and ugly 04:17:08 so I'd like to do this: 04:17:25 (defconstant +params-for-sp-1+ ; blah blah) 04:17:38 You need to generate something like: (let ((args '())) (push ee args) (push ff args) ... (push a args) (query* "stored-proc-2" args)) 04:17:39 (defconstatnt +params-for-sp-2+ ; blah blah) 04:18:22 Zhivago: so that I may do this: 04:18:31 Shaftoe: also, what about those stored procs with hundreds of parameters? Those are the problem. 04:18:46 I would suggest a macro to generate the macros. Or else, a data structure, if your interface is solid 04:18:47 (defpost foo (`(,@+params-for-sp-1+ ,@+params-for-sp-2+ )... 04:18:52 and then in my code use the constants. 04:19:10 shaftoe: So, what's the problem? Apart from your defconstant being gibberish? 04:19:30 Have defpost expand into code that concatenates its arguments. 04:19:41 Shaftoe: also, you don't need to expand the constants in the macro call. You can pass it symbolically, and let the defpost macro retrieve the list itself. 04:19:42 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:19:46 the problem is that if you pass a `(,@+con+ ,@+con2+) to a macro, you get a string, not the concatenated list 04:19:54 unless you do #. 04:19:55 I think you need to go more to a DSL than try to hack this into macros. It should still be possible, but layers of macro foo get more unmanageable than doing runtime data manipulation 04:19:57 So, don't pass that. 04:19:57 which solves this mes 04:20:08 did you udnerstand what I want to pass that? 04:20:12 why 04:20:23 Just say (defpost foo (+params-for-sp-1+ +params-for-sp2+) ...) 04:20:39 then I've made a different macro. 04:20:45 So what? 04:20:50 Macros are cheap. 04:20:56 (define-parameters sp1 (a b c)) (define-parameters sp2 (aa bb cc)) (defpost foo (sp1 sp2) ...) 04:20:57 which is fine, and I can work with it, but why break coding convention. 04:21:14 To avoid a hideous porridge of doom? 04:21:20 right, if you need more features _sometimes_ in macro usage, create one macro that encompasses the various possibilities, instead of trying to both use older less-featureful macros alongside newer ones of the same look 04:21:54 so you're saying I should burry #. *into* my macro? 04:21:56 how is that nicer? 04:22:00 You don't need #. 04:22:19 the fundamental problem is that I want to store code in a constant. That's the fundamental problem; 04:22:28 You don't even need defconstant. Store the assocs somewhere. (eg a hash-table). 04:22:29 You don't need to do that, either. 04:22:48 if you're looking up those constants at macroexpansion time, them being constant doesn't help any with speed 04:22:57 Have the macro construct the stored procedure if it hasn't done so already, and then yield it. 04:23:01 Phoodus: it's not speed, it's about readability 04:23:18 why do you reach for constants for readability? 04:23:29 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:33 There's nothing wrong with constants for readability. 04:23:35 and instead of defconstant raw, you should make some sort of (define-code-thing-I-need ....) 04:23:38 The problem is this #. fetish. 04:23:43 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:23:48 because if there's enough parameters, it's a total headache to remember which ones belong to which stored proc and are in which order. 04:23:57 then don't use parameters raw 04:24:01 Just take the symbolic names, allow the compiler to substitute the constants for you, build the procedure and ... store it. 04:24:05 I don't understand the problem: you want to do (epic-query a1 a2 a3), and epic-query does everything correct, right? 04:24:18 And forget about #. 04:24:22 *pnathan* may have a stupid. 04:24:36 Zhivago: done. 04:24:36 pnathan: 04:25:22 pnathan: the thing is: I have a functional boundary (a web form submission) that has a large set of inputs, and I need to partition that set into small but still large enough that I Can't remember everything by memory stored procs. 04:25:47 I don't want to define the set of inputs for the web form, and then *again* redefine the inputs for the stored procs. 04:26:01 because in this case, the sum of the inputs for the stored procs is equal to the inputs for the web form. 04:26:39 the union of all sets of inputs for the stored procs is the set of inputs for the web form. 04:26:45 So, stop using defconstant. 04:27:06 done. I'll inline everything 04:27:16 Instead set up a mapping from web-thingy to sql-thingy. 04:27:26 Why are you inlining everything? 04:27:28 My thought process here would be to translate each web variable into its equivalent sproc input, which leads MY mind to a datastructure which dispatches out to spocs 04:27:55 Do you have some kind of mental problem that requires you to progress from the stupidest option to the next most stupid option? 04:28:08 that's harsh, man. :-( 04:28:10 Zhivago: honestly I have a problem with attitudes. 04:28:25 I stopped paying serious attention to you back up there when you said "fetish". 04:28:25 Shaftoe: Then fix it, because it is making you stupid. 04:28:36 sigh. 04:29:30 I still don't think you need all this done at compiletime 04:29:32 pnathan: sufficed to say the problem is thorny enough that I've been thinking of a clean way of making it work without resorting to rewriting everything. I mistakenly thought people here might be interested in a discussion. 04:29:45 you should look to build stuff up lazily at runtime, with all the context freely available that you need 04:30:00 Let's relax, mkay? 04:30:14 at some point as scope increases, sometimes it outgrows the environment of the initial assumptions 04:30:25 and keeping it locked there can really hinder progress 04:30:48 This problem is trivial -- you're just trapped by deranged prejudices. 04:31:03 Shaftoe: Could you pastie some code? I'm finding it hard to understand the subtleties of the problem just from descriptions. 04:31:22 discussing problems is trivial -- you're just locked into abrasiveness 04:31:34 jacius: nah. I did yesterday. Had same reaction, different actors. The code isn't trivial. It's actually pretty subtle. 04:32:29 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@58.212.31.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:32:29 Shaftoe: with the level of indirection yo'ure doing, you need either macro-generating macros, nested macrolets, or look more into runtime processing 04:32:40 If you keep on getting the same reaction from different people .... it might be that you're the problem. 04:32:50 just trying to stick at one level of macros and adding #. to get another layer of lookup is a dead-end 04:33:04 Shaftoe: Well, maybe DM me with a private pastie, and I'll take a look? I promise not to bite your head off. :) 04:33:57 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:34:42 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 04:35:40 Phoodus: you are right about that. I'm going to think about it some more. 04:35:44 Shaftoe: one thing is that the various phases of lisp processing (reading, macro expansion, compilation, loading, execution) can be wrapped over (eg. you can compile at read time or at run-time, etc). So it's up to you to keep it simple, and to avoid "recursive loops". 04:36:34 Shaftoe: have you tried Phoodus' suggestion of multi-level macro expansion? An important tool for writing that is slime, which will let you select and expand subexpressions to make sure it's all working. 04:36:37 -!- lghtng [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/lghtng] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:37:03 vrook: I'm actually thinking about it right now. 04:37:07 I know that back when SBCL had a version where the compiler choked for minutes compiling lexical scopes that got beyond tiny, I converted a huge macro with nested macrolets into a small macro that called defuns with the source code as params. It simplified a lot of the built-up cruft and was quite fast 04:37:35 instead of trying to blast everything into macroexpansions directly 04:37:56 Cosman246 [~cosman246@c-66-235-51-122.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:24 That's what I tend to do: macro receives form, which gets processed by functions, all of which gets emitted by the macro. But like I said, I'm not a macro expert. :) 04:40:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:40:28 pnathan: Using a macro to convert syntactic sugar into a function call is generally the right thing to do. 04:41:49 Phoodus: I'm looking at the macro right now, and I guess what it boils down to is that so far, I've been treating the variables as source code instead of data. I do this because I walk the form that contains the variables and I process it at compile time, and then I emit the code. I could just *always* treat it as a value... 04:42:18 you need to decide if you're working with a constrained DSL, or with general lisp code 04:42:39 that lets you decide things like "this holds a variable name as a symbol" vs "this is an expression that will eventually eval down to a value" 04:43:16 yes. that's actually what it is. I do have a constrained DSL for this very paritcular form. 04:44:11 Often I put a macro together like so - the incoming forms get processed by the functions as straight up symbolic manipulation, then the macro binds them together into the desired end symbolic form. 04:44:23 I've found that relatively easy to debug. 04:45:29 alright. I hack some and see what comes. 04:45:40 s/hack/design/ :-P 04:47:25 eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has joined #lisp 04:48:59 Phoodus: for now it's hack, or more like bang some sticks and stones together. =) 04:49:13 design is when it'll start making sense 04:49:31 -!- eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has left #lisp 04:51:09 -!- rme [rme@A955740.5174A474.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:51:10 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.147.52] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:53:04 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:53:47 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA043C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:53:50 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #lisp 04:55:25 rme [~rme@50.43.147.52] has joined #lisp 05:05:31 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:05:38 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 05:06:07 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA05E3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 05:07:05 -!- Kron_ 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has joined #lisp 05:36:50 jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:51 mgr [~mgr@mail.phinn.de] has joined #lisp 05:37:04 Pepe_ [~ppjet@anderith.bouah.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:11 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:37:21 Neronus [~christian@heraklit.ayous.org] has joined #lisp 05:37:28 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 05:37:38 gemelen [~gemelen@gemelen.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:43 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:37:54 -!- ThomasH [4b1349ad@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 05:38:23 ruediger [~quassel@ptmx.org] has joined #lisp 05:38:47 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:38:54 peddie [~peddie@repl.esden.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:19 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #lisp 05:39:36 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 05:41:41 literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has joined #lisp 05:42:11 teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has joined #lisp 05:42:33 hyko [~toby@my.unixuni.com] has joined #lisp 05:42:35 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 05:46:42 whoops [~u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ydowspiqsovzicpt] has joined #lisp 05:50:45 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@114.222.249.125] has quit [Quit: ] 05:53:32 I'm attempting to install weblocks on quicklisp. 05:53:53 CL-USER> (ql:system-apropos "weblocks") 05:53:53 NIL 05:54:18 ql can not find weblocks 05:54:19 wadexing: incompatible with hunchentoot for a while. Xach had to drop it until it's fixed. 05:54:22 Weblocks....... 05:54:55 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@78-22-147-122.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:56:41 incandenza [u726@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kqfflydudisyjvrr] has joined #lisp 05:57:26 Okay...Looking like I have to try another way. thank you guys! 05:57:33 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:57:50 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-yabiobewninumhyv] has joined #lisp 05:57:50 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-yabiobewninumhyv] has quit [Changing host] 05:57:50 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:57:55 -!- _mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:58:05 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 05:58:48 yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has joined #lisp 06:00:15 By the way,Could you recommend to me some cool web framework in Common-lisp? 06:00:25 UCW 06:00:25 06:01:40 Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:47 UnCommon Web? 06:01:53 yep 06:04:27 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5DE8ED85.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:05:25 el-maxo [~max@p5DE8F7F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:15 chenbing [~user@115.192.215.143] has joined #lisp 06:08:38 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:08:53 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-grjmtbnqpzjqehue] has joined #lisp 06:09:36 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-144.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:09:37 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.190] has joined #lisp 06:10:54 _mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 06:13:39 -!- phyllis [84aa4142@gateway/web/freenode/ip.132.170.65.66] has left #lisp 06:16:13 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 06:18:01 SlayersZ [~SlayersZ@70.65.233.0] has joined #lisp 06:18:09 hello xD 06:18:37 Hey :3 06:18:48 how are you 06:18:54 Good. 06:18:57 Yourself? 06:19:23 progmonk [~user@130.56.83.138] has joined #lisp 06:19:38 I'm doing ok. 06:19:52 That's good to know :) 06:20:08 how are you finding lisp xD 06:20:22 I'm not sure "finding" is the right word. :p 06:20:43 But I'll get there. 06:20:54 what programming langauges have you tried? 06:21:04 I'm a Haskell guy. 06:21:12 So it's not too much of a stretch 06:21:18 just kind of new to the whole thing 06:21:23 There's Liskell to make the bridge. 06:21:34 Yeah, I know. :p 06:21:50 What's your opinion on the differences between Haskell and Lisp? 06:22:06 I like parens 06:22:07 Lisp is better 06:22:14 ^that 06:22:15 heh 06:22:18 To be honest 06:22:25 Lisp implementations have REPL. 06:22:25 there was one thing that really irked me about Haskell 06:22:31 i wouldn't have been in #lisp if it weren't better 06:22:31 and it's the same thing that irks me about Python 06:22:34 I like sexpy syntax, for one... 06:22:49 I don't really like the way that the spacing is part of the syntax 06:22:56 I mean sure, the code is readable 06:23:07 but if I want to write all my code in one line, then I should have that right 06:23:18 Yeah, I understand what you mean 06:23:23 And sometimes it's more readable when you put it all on one line. 06:23:27 Yeah 06:23:29 Table-based programming, etc. 06:23:43 It's also hard if you're looking at code on the web, and the site has ads that mess with the indenting 06:23:46 I do think that Haskell is probably more powerful for lazy evals and stuff 06:23:50 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:23:50 ^ that too. 06:23:51 And of course, tabs vs. spaces 06:23:54 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:54 And try to define a macro, specifying the indentation levels... 06:23:58 Yep. 06:24:18 Everyone should have a right to their own indent styles 06:24:34 Even if we expect emacs to do it automatically :-) 06:24:42 :p 06:24:45 pjb. XD 06:24:48 O Emacs, blessed be thy name 06:25:06 I shall give you one C-x 8 white heart suit RET 06:25:08 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 06:25:14 hehee xD 06:25:21 -!- pnathan [~Adium@64.126.142.148] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:25:34 06:26:06 Though I would say that Logix is an interesting project that would be good for those migrating from Python 06:26:08 06:26:26 Same with sweet-expressions 06:26:34 Logix? 06:26:57 Like... 06:26:58 Here 06:27:15 http://logix-language.sourceforge.net/ 06:28:03 Logix: Multi-Language Programming 06:28:22 Hmm. That does seem interesting. 06:28:40 too many languages :/ 06:28:44 ruby and lisp .... XD 06:28:45 All of the languages. 06:28:59 Ruby and lisp... is that like ruby on railth? 06:29:01 is it like poplog? 06:29:21 Nah, Logix is a badly-named project 06:29:39 Sakako: that joke stopped being funny 50 years ago 06:29:51 -!- Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Cryotank2011] 06:30:05 Wow, ruby on rails is 50 years old? Call me Rip. 06:30:46 if you're interested in multi-language programming take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poplog 06:30:46 Anyway. I'm off. Class has finished for the day 06:30:48 What?! Rip is just a libary manager 06:31:20 Maybe Merb... 06:31:28 -!- Sakako [~sakako@130.56.84.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:31:36 So poplog is prolog, CL, Scheme, POP-11, and ML? 06:31:49 -!- progmonk [~user@130.56.83.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:32:06 sans scheme 06:32:43 stassats`: there was scheme for it, afaik 06:32:52 pooplog? 06:33:02 there's a Python for CL too 06:33:08 SlayersZ: grow up 06:33:10 = prolog? 06:33:20 CLPython 06:36:07 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-040-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:54 DGASAU`` [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 06:40:41 -!- DGASAU` [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:43:02 gensym` [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:46 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:45:50 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 06:48:27 -!- schaueho 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[~Glossina@71-214-105-3.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: FUCK FUCK FUCK] 09:17:38 -!- wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:19:12 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-cskwktreghmymjha] has joined #lisp 09:19:29 ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has joined #lisp 09:20:43 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:40 nanoc [~conanhome@200.16.144.226] has joined #lisp 09:27:45 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:30:18 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.219] has joined #lisp 09:31:47 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:33:26 Operaist2 [~OperaIst@ppp-124-122-100-229.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 09:33:36 how many people have read the 1200 pages bible? 09:33:52 I did. (It's called clhs). 09:34:09 several times 09:34:46 I cannot use CASE with a string as TESTKEY? According to CLHS, TESTKEY and KEY must be the _same_, so they must be EQ? 09:35:02 H4ns [~user@g231223165.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:35:02 yes, you can't, it uses eql 09:35:11 okay, thanks 09:35:31 gensym`: otherwise have a look at alexandria:switch. 09:39:38 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:39:56 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 09:40:10 pjb: thats cool - thanks! 09:40:48 tfb [~tfb@92.40.41.152.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:41:13 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 09:43:13 wws [~billstcla@p-67-158-180-85.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:59 -!- wws [wws@clozure-EF8F6078.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 09:45:55 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:49:12 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:50:03 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has left #lisp 09:50:16 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 09:51:23 nostoi [~nostoi@189.Red-80-39-156.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:57 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:52:12 -!- Harag [~phil@41.56.39.129] has left #lisp 09:53:33 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 09:58:01 actually, how many words does the CLHS contain? any guesses. 1200 pages sounds like a lot, but it's a somewhat weird measure. 09:58:01 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@189.Red-80-39-156.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:59:24 wc is your friend! 09:59:33 That's true. A good part is made of the dictionnaries which are structured entries. 09:59:48 I always gzip the files before comparing sizes... 10:00:27 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:01:08 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.12.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:01:16 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:01:19 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 10:01:52 i wonder why alexandria has no "while" macro. is there something bad about while that i have not seen yet? 10:02:21 Ralith: i've never downloaded it, i've always looked it up online 10:02:31 Ralith: am i an unworthy of lisp now? ;-) 10:02:36 :P 10:02:43 H4ns: there's a better library, named CESARUM, which has a WHILE macro. (and an UNTIL). 10:02:55 the official ANSI CL standard is somewhere in that ballpark, > 1000 pages 10:02:56 alexandria is obsolete now? 10:02:57 silenius [~silenius@i59F76731.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:02:58 pjb: sadly, i can't use that library because it is gpl 10:02:59 when did that happen? 10:03:02 Ralith: not at all. 10:03:03 *madnificent* searches for cesarum 10:03:06 oh. 10:03:08 H4ns: GPL software is usually better. 10:03:11 that seems ill thought out. 10:03:12 (ql:quickload :COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM) 10:03:13 pjb: "right" 10:03:22 only if you like GPL 10:03:23 (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:while test body...) 10:03:38 (incf H4ns *a-gazilion-zillion*) 10:03:53 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:03:55 Ralith: no, it is not. it doesn't contain things which other libraries have solved (look at the frontpage of the library) 10:04:18 Ralith: it's useful when you want to copy-and-paste emacs lisp code. Otherwise (loop while do ...) is good enough. 10:04:37 searching a bit, ANSI CL is about 1400 pages 10:04:41 pjb: why are you telling me that? 10:05:31 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 10:05:31 so, if you exclude indexes and so on, it'll still be pretty hefty 10:05:31 For " oh.", but perhaps you reacted to somebody else. 10:05:46 I was reacting to it being GPL. 10:05:51 I have little interest in a GPL lib. 10:06:07 i can't find cesarum, is it i GPL lib? 10:06:12 madnificent: yes. 10:06:21 damn 10:06:22 madnificent: (ql:quickload :COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM) 10:06:27 madnificent: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:while test body...) 10:06:28 pjb: no thanks 10:07:08 i have no problem with GPL software, i just can't look at its code 10:07:09 pjb: i've searched for it on quicklisp and found it, but there didn't seem to be a cliki page and duckduckgo didn't help me either (searching lisp online is complex, i guess) 10:07:19 omega__ [~tristan@lvps176-28-16-172.dedicated.hosteurope.de] has joined #lisp 10:07:36 stassats`: i'm not grasping your statement 10:17:04 -!- gko [~gko@27.52.58.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:17:20 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 10:19:44 knobo [~bohmer@92.80-202-64.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:19:47 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:21:45 dbushenko [~dim@86.57.253.61] has joined #lisp 10:21:52 -!- ASau [~user@89-178-205-31.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:22:18 ASau [~user@93-80-223-68.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:24:26 -!- omega__ [~tristan@lvps176-28-16-172.dedicated.hosteurope.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:25:21 daniel__2 [~daniel@p5B326B0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:25:37 -!- ASau [~user@93-80-223-68.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:25:49 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:25:57 nikodemus [~nikodemus@87-95-131-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:26:05 ASau [~user@95-27-186-251.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:27:16 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082ABEE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:28:34 setmeaway2 [oosool3@119.201.52.190] has joined #lisp 10:28:49 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:30:02 -!- joshe [~joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:30:50 ASau` [~user@93-80-101-50.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:33:31 twopi [~tristan@lvps176-28-16-172.dedicated.hosteurope.de] has joined #lisp 10:35:32 -!- ASau [~user@95-27-186-251.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:35:42 vervic [~vervic@vie-91-186-151-171.dsl.sil.at] has joined #lisp 10:38:59 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 10:39:03 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:18 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has left #lisp 10:40:27 -!- ASau` [~user@93-80-101-50.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:40:32 -!- waveman [~tim@203-214-39-56.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:41:16 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA23B79.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:41:22 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-219-46.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 10:41:23 -!- teggi [148b9232@gateway/web/freenode/ip.20.139.146.50] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:43:15 weird statement indeed 10:44:18 which? 10:44:19 -!- gensym` [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:44:30 stassats`' 10:45:04 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:45:24 akovalenko [~akovalenk@95.73.124.217] has joined #lisp 10:46:31 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:52:31 what's weird about it? 10:52:48 stassats`: what do you mean by it? 10:52:58 you can't look at GPL others code unless you want to license your code under GPL 10:53:05 which i don't want to do 10:53:28 look at, is a tad of an overstatement there, no? 10:54:00 OTOH, "copy+paste" would be an understatement. 10:54:13 It's probably something in between. 10:54:13 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-014.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:54:26 you can replace "look" with "read", whatever suits you best 10:54:29 Debydov [~Debydov@20151201218.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 10:54:31 akovalenko: my question was serious actually. IANAL and they make odd decisions :) 10:55:01 stassats`: i am allowed to rewrite the code (probably in a slightly different form) after reading GPL code, correct? or am i not allowed to do that either? 10:55:34 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 10:55:37 -!- Debydov [~Debydov@20151201218.user.veloxzone.com.br] has left #lisp 10:55:41 madnificent: you can write the code. There's less risk reading GPL code than reading proprietary code. 10:56:01 i hope that that's not even in some sort of grey area, but i wouldn't be all that surprised either 10:56:06 Modius [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:57:46 pjb: comon man, be serious. 'proprietary code' doesn't state anything. gpl licensed code could be seen as proprietary code afaict. i'm only allowed to do certain things with the code. 10:57:46 madnificent: what prevents you from copying it subconsciously? and what makes a rewrite an original work? 10:58:05 i mean, how much should you rewrite it to make it original and not derivative 10:58:50 pjb: sorry, wikipedia disagrees with me. i take back my literal statement. yet the limitations of proprietary software don't seem to limit what i can do *if* i'd look at the code. 10:59:15 stassats`: have there been cases where that has been an issue that you know of? 10:59:28 In any case, even if you reinvent everything, you'd could still reproduce similar code and have problems, with the current laws. 10:59:42 cf. patents. 10:59:54 So you'd better read the code, and ensure you do something different. 10:59:56 madnificent: there isn't many legal precedents concerning GPL and other free licenses, so you can't count on that 11:00:04 stassats`: thanks 11:00:50 pjb: well, that's acting under the assumption of guilty until proven innocent. last time i checked, europe's justice system seemed to work the other way around. 11:00:51 of course you are allowed to read gpl code !!!0_0 11:01:59 you may even allowed to use GPL code without open sourcing your own if your national law permits it 11:02:09 kilon: the issues arise if you don't intend to publish gpl code afterwards (for instance BSD code) 11:02:14 kilon: reading it makes it harder for some people to write non-GPL code that does not violate the GPL afterwards 11:02:43 GPL is working under the assumption that national law is allowing it to work 11:02:53 -!- Operaist2 [~OperaIst@ppp-124-122-100-229.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0/20111115184056]] 11:02:55 -!- DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@75-163-225-197.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: DaDaDosPrompt] 11:02:56 you'd be prevented from reading code that have no license attached (online snippets) 11:03:31 if national law does not recognise GPL then there is nothing stoping your from copying it and closing the source 11:03:46 twopi: funny thing, under european law, you can *read* the snippets as a human, but you're not allowed to execute them :) 11:04:03 either case, sorry for dragging this issue in #lisp time after time lately. with GPL's lisp issues, i prefer to be somewhat informed. 11:04:57 law or not, lisp code published under the gpl is not free to be used for the purposes that i'm interested in, by the author's intent, so i don't use it and i don't look at it either. 11:05:29 GPL has grey areas, like most laws. In the end, courts decide, but I think the GPL is supposed to encourage dialog between people creating derivative works and the original authors. 11:05:53 is there an equivalent to #'every which returns nil when the lists given to it as its arguments are not equal in length? 11:06:16 (lambda (f a b) (and (= (length a) (length b)) (every f a b))) 11:06:21 twopi: if you haven't already, read the mails between rms and the clisp author. 11:06:27 The code is protected by copyright, which is the licensed by the author. The "idea" in the code isn't protected under european law from what I've heard recently. 11:06:35 pjb: i know, it's a one-liner, i wanted to know if it existed already :) 11:06:41 So reading it, remembering the "idea" and forgetting the code, shouldn't be a problem. 11:06:43 well if you dont like to look at it, dont, i look to every source code i can get my eyes on and dont worry about copying it subconsiously or not, which is legal by the way 11:06:53 madnificent: okie doke 11:06:57 madnificent: it has no specific name, but it exists. (like all mathematical being, all functions already exist). 11:07:31 well i dont have photographic memory 11:09:22 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.41.152.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Quit: gone] 11:09:25 -!- H4ns [~user@g231223165.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: brain transplant] 11:09:45 kilon: eidetic* 11:10:25 Brendan_T: what is "eidetic" , english is not my mother tongue 11:10:52 The word eidetic, referring to extraordinarily detailed and vivid recall not limited to, but especially of, visual images, comes from the Greek word (pronounced [�dos], eidos, "seen") 11:11:03 copied from wiki, since it explains it better than i 11:11:55 the reason i corrected you is because 'photographic' memories dont really exist, since the image isnt literally painted in our brains or anything like that ;p 11:12:14 madnificent: half way though reading the letter. I think Stallman has his heart in the right place, but won't accept that loopholes can always be found. "True. If that were the whole situation--if readline did not exist-- 11:12:18 then I would have no grounds to object." 11:12:37 Brendan_T: and i am greek , i should have known that :D 11:13:30 dca_ [~user@178-16-156-18.obit.ru] has joined #lisp 11:13:38 YuleAthas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:14:16 and it also allows for a wider coverage of types of "photographic" memories. some can recal the image as if they were really looking at it, some remember different characteristics that allow them to reconstruct the image to closely what the original was, and of course eidetic memories aren't limited to visual data 11:14:20 drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:30 Brendan_T: by photographic i did not mean my skull opens and a lens and a flash come out :D I mean the ability to see something and then remember just reading it once later 11:14:55 yeah, but saying eidetic will make you sound smarter :) 11:15:04 twopi: to me personally, that didn't feel like a gpl violation, but apparently law states it is. it made me realize that i am not a lawyer and that i shouldn't try to grasp things which were written for lawyers :) until the date at which i have a personal legal team, i'll try to keep things simple. 11:16:03 i am a lawyer :D 11:16:19 and i hit my head on the wall, when reading case law, sometimes 11:16:25 or legislation 11:16:44 Since mapcar series(f_map) functions are applied in list ,so what's altenative solution in real development in CL ,I mean when vector,array,queue and others? 11:17:04 twopi: also, i'm not against the idea of the GPL per se. however it isn't suited for a big range of applications, these applications will not be built if the gpl is all that rules (i don't like that) 11:17:13 kilon: \o/ i'm not the only one 11:17:33 madnificent: you are a lawyer too ? 11:18:29 kilon: no, i'm not the only one banging my head against the wall :P 11:18:39 aaah 11:18:54 :D 11:20:48 well what i lose in memory i am gaining at twisting reality :D law is more flexible than people would like to think ;) 11:21:35 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.163.20] has joined #lisp 11:21:57 ive heard from a lawyer that legal things are often intentionally obfunscated and essentially warp meanings of words so thats its a whole new murky language 11:22:40 Kenjin: everyone from now on must use their github names 11:22:44 DGASAU``` [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 11:22:50 -!- DGASAU`` [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:22:57 Xach: oh 11:22:59 *Brendan_T* doesnt use github 11:23:38 -!- Nauntilus [~Benji@ip68-231-176-93.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:23:41 well yes and no, the problem with law, unlike coding, is that its not an exact science, its a social science , legislation rarely goes in details because that would mean bad applications of the law and case law depend on the judge opinion on the subject , so its not difficult to have law that contradicts itself 11:24:15 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:25:20 -!- Noctifer [~Noctifer@82.113.119.17] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:26:30 whats the best gui library for lisp in macos ? something with native look 11:26:35 Xach: will do 11:26:56 Kenjin: not really 11:26:58 also is there a library that allows for easy inteface between lisp and objc ? 11:27:17 kilon: clozure cl offers that, i think. 11:27:26