00:00:38 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.50] has joined #lisp 00:02:07 -!- Karl_H [~Karl_H@f048130206.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:02:36 Xach: Canadian as well? 00:02:38 There's a Lisp meeting tomorrow in toronto, start a-walkin'! 00:03:44 Hmmm I should keep an eye out for the announcements, wouldn't be a bad excuse for a trip.. 00:05:00 5 hour train ride, not the worst... 00:05:16 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 00:06:07 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:10:16 -!- ayrnieu [~julian@50.15.104.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:10:25 -!- p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:10:47 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:11:00 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.50] has joined #lisp 00:11:39 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-68-249.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:12:16 p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has joined #lisp 00:14:09 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:14:14 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 00:22:24 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:46 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:30:10 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.12.61] has joined #lisp 00:31:42 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-171-86.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 00:33:12 -!- g000001_ is now known as g000001 00:33:18 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@64.134.101.48] has joined #lisp 00:34:53 stickycake [~stickycak@64.134.101.48] has joined #lisp 00:36:56 -!- nikodemus` [~nikodemus@188-67-206-250.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:38:39 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-64-21.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:18 chp [~user@c-68-45-180-238.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:35 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:45:40 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 00:58:25 -!- stickycake [~stickycak@64.134.101.48] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:58:25 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@64.134.101.48] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:58:42 stickycake [~stickycak@64.134.101.48] has joined #lisp 00:58:42 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@64.134.101.48] has joined #lisp 01:03:23 Pterygota [~me@cpe-76-188-7-196.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:53 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:07:02 wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has joined #lisp 01:08:47 -!- Pterygota [~me@cpe-76-188-7-196.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:09:19 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:10:03 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:10:13 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@guestnet.franz.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:11:59 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:15:28 -!- ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:20:34 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 01:22:07 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:24:12 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:24:30 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 01:25:00 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:08 ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:29:25 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:31:55 http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/LISP-Deserves-a-Fresh-Look/ 01:32:19 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 01:33:46 that is a fresh link 01:33:49 only 5 years old 01:34:53 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 01:34:55 Yep. 01:35:13 Xach: if you use relative time scale, that's recent 01:36:08 *p_l* plans on making an "introduction to common lisp" talk for january tech meetup 01:42:32 fractal_heart [~mzhang@c-67-169-82-117.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:43 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:43:20 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:44:51 -!- Noctifer [~Noctifer@82.113.119.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:46:24 -!- mcspiff [~user@CPE78cd8ec16698-CM78cd8ec16695.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:53:53 -!- pnq [~nick@AC83423B.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:55:59 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.75] has joined #lisp 01:55:59 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.75] has quit [Changing host] 01:55:59 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 01:56:18 hi, as an exercise, i am writting a heap struct. Now I am using a vector to be my data array, is this a good idea? I am worrying that vector has fast seek, but slow add/del element, is this correct? 01:56:38 like this: (defstruct my-heap (adata (vector)) ... ) 01:58:00 -!- stickycake [~stickycak@64.134.101.48] has quit [Quit: stickycake] 01:58:00 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@64.134.101.48] has quit [Quit: RomyEatsDrupal] 01:58:22 the toronto group still gets together? 01:58:22 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:58:28 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-64-21.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 01:59:58 fractal_heart: depends on you implement add/del element on your vectoros... 02:00:28 s/on /on how/ 02:00:55 (defun delete-element (v index) (setf (aref v index) :deleted)) ; O(1) 02:01:25 (defun add-element (v e) (vector-push-extend e v (length v))) ; amortized O(1). 02:01:41 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 02:03:05 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:04:11 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-216-238.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:04:31 -!- fractal_heart [~mzhang@c-67-169-82-117.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:07:52 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@64.134.101.48] has joined #lisp 02:09:53 gabkck [~Usuario89@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 02:09:59 hello 02:10:18 -!- coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Quit: Heaven isnt a place, Bartleby, it's being with people who love you.] 02:10:34 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@64.134.101.48] has quit [Client Quit] 02:10:58 what's the right way of doing this? I'm trying to construct a new symbol within a macro. (defmacro macro (symbol) `(defun make-,symbol ())) 02:11:22 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:12:13 ,(intern (format nil "~{~A~^-~}" (list 'make symbol))) 02:12:22 mcspiff [~user@CPE78cd8ec16698-CM78cd8ec16695.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:12:34 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:12:46 thanks 02:12:51 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:52 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 02:16:44 You may also want: ,(intern (format nil "~{~A~^-~}" (list 'make symbol)) (symbol-package symbol)) 02:17:04 if you want (macro other-package:symbol) to produce other-package:make-symbol ... 02:17:25 I'm not sure I understand 02:17:38 I'm trying to write a simplified defclass, similar to defstruct 02:17:59 gabkck: symbols used by the user are not necessarily in the current *package*. 02:18:31 When you (defsomething other-package:name) perhaps you want to create the other symbols in the same package as other-package:name? 02:18:35 -!- mcspiff [~user@CPE78cd8ec16698-CM78cd8ec16695.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:18:39 or perhaps not. You must specify it. 02:19:12 okay 02:20:04 eg. defstruct interns the new symbols in the current package. (defstruct pp:name pp:slot) --> name-slot is not interned in pp. 02:20:28 I see. defclass does the same? 02:20:50 -!- phylllis [84aa4f89@gateway/web/freenode/ip.132.170.79.137] has left #lisp 02:20:53 defclass creates less symbols. You must provide your own symbols to name the accessors. 02:26:15 -!- entrix_ [~entrix@95-27-30-160.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:23 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 02:27:48 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:28 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:35:19 entrix_ [~entrix@95-27-30-160.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 02:35:19 -!- ASau [~user@95-25-186-18.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:35:47 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B5BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:37:02 ASau [~user@89-178-205-31.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 02:37:32 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B71B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:32 would it be possible to make a dict literal? {:name "Foo" :age 20} 02:41:56 Yes, by writing the right reader macro. 02:42:03 ok great 02:42:08 :) 02:42:36 -!- PECCU is now known as peccu 02:43:41 In clisp, you car read hash-table literals with the structure syntax. #S(hash-table ...). 02:43:46 But it's not standard. 02:44:18 one could make { work on all implementations? 02:44:26 Yes, with a reader macrco. 02:45:34 what functions should I look into? I want to try to make it just to see how it works 02:46:43 clhs set-macro-character 02:46:50 ok thanks 02:47:54 read-delimited-list may come handy too. 02:50:27 that won't work by itself it seems 02:50:50 it requires } by itself, won't terminate on say "10 20 30}" 02:51:38 You need to copy the syntax of #\) to #\} 02:52:13 set-syntax-from-char 02:56:47 stickycake [~stickycak@64.134.241.97] has joined #lisp 02:56:47 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@64.134.241.97] has joined #lisp 03:00:40 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xovgvkvuaicqggvc] has joined #lisp 03:04:06 is the function used in set-macro-character like a macro? whatever it returns is fed to compiler? 03:04:40 gabkck: no, it's a reader macro. It's called by the reader to read and parse things that follow a given character. 03:05:05 There are also dispatching reader macros, that dispatch upon two characters, such as #A #S #(, etc. 03:05:38 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-155-91.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 03:05:44 gabkck: the lisp reader only knows how to read and parse symbols, integers and flooating point numbers. 03:06:16 gabkck: all the rest is read with reader macros or dispatching reader macros. strings, lists, comments, complexes, structures, vectors, etc. 03:06:29 heh somehow I made {+ 1 2} work, but {1 2 3} not. it's calling first element as a function 03:06:40 '{1 2 3} 03:06:59 You can always use the quote reader macro #\' to prevent evaluation of what is read. 03:07:19 yes, I want just {1 2 3} though 03:07:34 I tend to define a 4-line function called "hash" -- (hash :name "Foo" :age 20 ...) -- which isn't a compile-time expansion but it's easy and it suffices. 03:07:40 '{1 2 3} --> what is read by {1 2 3}. 03:08:17 Yes, once you have a literal object, you must take care that it can be serialized by the compiler into fasl files and read back when loading them. 03:08:23 vrook yeah it's easy to do that and good enough, I was just curious how to make { } working 03:08:29 It's often sufficient to build the object at run time. 03:08:43 gabkck: yeah I was just gabbing. Defining {} is a good exercise. 03:10:06 gabkck: have a look at http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/f7966bf3df9f716c for more sophistiated reader macros. 03:10:08 gabkck: are you writing a literal-only {} which would create the hash at read-time? 03:10:12 s/tia/tica/ 03:10:13 drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:14 -!- stickycake [~stickycak@64.134.241.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:10:14 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@64.134.241.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:10:51 a compiled-down literal hash might have some real use 03:11:58 In any case, to augment the exercise you could write compiled versions and runtime versions of {}. 03:13:09 yes I'll try to write both 03:14:58 -!- ThomasH [4b1349ad@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:15:46 stickycake [~stickycak@64.134.241.97] has joined #lisp 03:16:15 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@64.134.241.97] has joined #lisp 03:16:34 antifuchs [~foobar@50-0-91-119.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:19 phylllis [84aa4f89@gateway/web/freenode/ip.132.170.79.137] has joined #lisp 03:19:30 iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:35 -!- entrix_ [~entrix@95-27-30-160.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:21:47 hrolf [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has joined #lisp 03:22:51 passionke [~Administr@60.177.50.182] has joined #lisp 03:22:58 hello 03:23:23 how come when i (ql:quickload :my-system) I'm not getting any compile warnings, but when I do C-c C-k I'm getting them? 03:24:19 hrolf: C-c C-k loads only a single file 03:24:35 hrolf: does your system have more than one file? 03:25:04 it has two 03:25:37 are you loading them in order with C-c C-k? 03:26:11 I've loaded my system, got zero warnings. then I did C-c C-k on a single file, and I got warnings about unused variables etc 03:26:51 hrolf: I think quickload muffles warning to avoid frightening newbies. 03:26:52 hm. does that file contain an (in-package) form at the top? 03:27:00 yes 03:27:59 ah. wait, unused variables? those would be compiler notes and style warnings. I think ql:quickload suppresses them. 03:28:18 oh I see 03:28:40 try asdf:load-system 03:29:55 yes getting them with asdf:load-system 03:31:51 ayrnieu [~julian@50.15.104.42] has joined #lisp 03:33:10 -!- stickycake [~stickycak@64.134.241.97] has quit [Quit: stickycake] 03:33:10 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@64.134.241.97] has quit [Quit: RomyEatsDrupal] 03:33:17 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:33:47 unrelated question, how would I construct and call code in defun like in defmacro, with `(whatever ... ) syntax? do I have to call eval? 03:34:32 clhs funcall 03:34:38 no 03:35:00 no, the bot isn't there. 03:35:18 I want to do this in defun: `(some-macro () (whatever ,var)) etc 03:35:37 hrolf: try (ql:quickload :foo :verbose t :explain t) 03:35:48 trying that now 03:36:38 yes that did it 03:36:38 well, you can do exactly that in a defun, and it returns a list. Presumably you can have (some-macro () (whatever var)), with the macro designed to pick out the var. 03:36:40 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:37:01 otherwise, I think you're looking for LAMBDA or EVAL , yeah. 03:37:05 ayrnieu I dont want to return a list though, I want to execute that code 03:37:21 well, what's wrong with (some-macro () (whatever var)) ? 03:37:49 I have to expand some lists within it 03:37:59 ,@list etc 03:38:04 hrolf: rewrite that macro as a function! 03:38:18 not my macro 03:38:18 -!- nitro_id_ is now known as nitro_idiot 03:38:24 nonetheless. 03:38:51 Macro are compile time things. Functions are run-time things. If you don't know the list at compilation time, then you need a function. 03:38:53 would be a bit hard to write it as a function I think 03:39:20 won't eval work though? 03:39:51 Yes, but you must resist using it. You must have a really good reason to use it. 03:41:11 just realize that you're patching over a weakness in the macro's design. 03:41:19 honestly I can't see how I'd do this without eval or similar 03:41:42 well, you have to backtrack a bit to see what you'd do. 03:42:00 Kron [~Kron@69.166.20.102] has joined #lisp 03:42:08 -!- passionke [~Administr@60.177.50.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:42:17 let me paste what I'm trying to do 03:42:26 -!- Kron is now known as Guest73258 03:43:05 perhaps I should create a macro instead of a function 03:43:37 That wouldn't help if you don't know the list at compilation time. 03:43:37 Are you sure you don't want to call some-macro? What good is the quoted code? 03:43:44 http://paste.lisp.org/display/126315 03:43:48 dcguru [~chatzilla@66.129.60.130] has joined #lisp 03:43:48 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:43:53 that's an example from their page 03:43:57 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.42] has joined #lisp 03:44:12 I want to add arbitrary number of (add-series "Rank" '((0 10) (1 18) (2 19) (3 17))) entries. how many depends on the list I have 03:44:25 (each one will be different obviously) 03:44:44 This is a body. You can do a loop (loop for list in lists do (add-series "Rank" list)) 03:44:45 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 03:45:13 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:45:20 oh? 03:45:30 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:45:33 heh 03:45:49 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 03:45:56 something I thought that add-series etc are special macro entries, not regular functions. let me check 03:46:00 somehow* 03:46:30 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:46:56 you're right it's just body and those are regular functions. feel dumb now 03:49:17 if you're using slime it should have told you the name of the current argument as you were typing it 03:50:06 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:06 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:50:06 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 03:53:41 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:54:07 can loop destructure a list like this? '((a b) (a b c) (a b c d))) something like this: (loop (x &rest y) ; doesn't work obviously 03:54:37 (loop for (a . rest) in '((a b) (a b c) (a b c d)) do print (list a rest)) 03:54:44 (loop for (a . rest) in '((a b) (a b c) (a b c d)) do (print (list a rest))) 03:54:52 smart, thanks 03:54:55 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:55:29 but the destructuring is limited. You can always do: (loop for entry in list do (destructuring-bind ... entry ...)) 04:00:44 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.92.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:01:14 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.42] has joined #lisp 04:01:19 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.86.88] has joined #lisp 04:01:35 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:01:41 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:48 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:01:48 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 04:03:22 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 04:04:21 -!- el-maxo [~max@p57A56A90.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:06:28 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.102] has joined #lisp 04:06:32 stratobacker [~user@c-98-202-137-87.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:41 el-maxo [~max@p57A57266.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:56 I've never understood why LOOP doesn't do a destructuring-bind there, but some subset instead. 04:07:29 In a new standard, loop might be one of the most worked on macros... 04:07:42 There's so many things wrong with it :-) 04:07:52 -!- Guest73258 [~Kron@69.166.20.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:08:26 Maybe Kepler 22-b standardized a better LOOP. 04:16:45 lol 04:17:20 btw, what happened to cltl3? 04:17:29 We're waiting for the right time. 04:17:48 In the meantime, we just gather ideas on the cltl3 cliki page. 04:17:55 And of course, the CDR. 04:18:04 tianl [~user@c-69-242-90-171.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:30 pjb: I meant that there was a mailing list, but it seems dead 04:20:24 the CDR? 04:20:40 http://cdr.eurolisp.org/ 04:21:02 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:21:22 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 04:21:53 Ahh, thanks. 04:23:31 leo2007 [~leo@218.85.168.161] has joined #lisp 04:24:28 I've occasionally thought that a good project would be to gather a pile of libraries together, regularize & document them, and offer them as a "Community Extensions to Common Lisp". There are an excruciatingly large number of libraries out there that are really awesome but aren't connected. :-/ 04:24:56 pnathan: you're not alone. Xach thought the same. And did something about it, thankfully. 04:25:27 -!- p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:26:46 pjb: Quicklisp? Isn't that meant to be more broad than that? 04:27:20 isn't it a a pile of libraries put together, regularized & documented, and offered as a "Community Extensions to Common Lisp"? 04:27:31 p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has joined #lisp 04:28:00 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@50-0-91-119.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:28:03 I don't think they're "regularized" or documented. 04:28:19 Unless the library themselves are. 04:28:29 and they're not "community extensions" so much as "whatever's popular at the moment" 04:28:29 Er, libraries. 04:28:35 rtoym: he's working on it, on motivating library authors to document them. 04:28:53 No, QL is not what I'm thinking of exactly. It would enable it. 04:29:27 pnathan: some sort of central organizing effort around things like bordeaux-threads and so on? 04:29:32 Yea 04:29:59 what would it contribute to the development of those libraries? 04:30:37 Couple areas. (1) standard distribution of libraries that could be pointed at or included by vendors. (2) well-documented set of libraries for common tasks 04:31:16 pnathan: really you get this with ql. You might want to work on their documentation, but we're almost there. 04:31:32 Documentation ain't there man. :) 04:31:35 pjb: QL offers multiple libraries to serve the same needs 04:31:41 I think pnathan is imagining an authoritative set 04:31:58 Authority is a strong word. More like, "This is normative". 04:32:05 Ralith: there's not a lot of redundancy, and there are differences, if only in the license. 04:32:05 Like beginning the formalization of extensions to common lisp? 04:32:35 Oh, that's a grand plan, too big for me today. But sure, something like *could* evolve. 04:32:38 In any case, I don't think that reducing the choice of library be a worthy goal for the meantime. 04:32:53 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:33:50 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:34:06 I'm not suggesting reducing choice, more like focusing on working up a *typical* library. E.g.,to do X, use Y. However, Z, K, F *can* be used, but are more special purpose/experimental, etc 04:34:08 pjb: I'm not sure that's the idea 04:34:33 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:34:58 pnathan: help Xach working on the library documentation / meta information question. 04:35:13 Last time I offered, he wasn't ready. :) 04:35:22 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.42] has joined #lisp 04:35:46 (QL-DIST:SYSTEM-APROPOS "XML") gives nothing. We need more queries and better results. 04:35:52 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:36:11 Perhaps it works only on loaded systems... 04:36:23 that doesn't seem right 04:37:20 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:38:14 I would be happy to contribute if someone points me at the right place, but I don't want to zip off and Do My Own Thing or be a brat. :) 04:40:31 -!- tianl [~user@c-69-242-90-171.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:41:08 disorganized attempts to make an organized standard would be kind of missing the point, after all 04:41:09 saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA130D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 04:41:40 do it map-reduce way 04:43:09 yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has joined #lisp 04:44:47 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA02D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:45:08 -!- leo2007 [~leo@218.85.168.161] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:46:26 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 04:48:04 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.87.123] has joined #lisp 04:49:46 -!- peccu is now known as PECCU 04:50:21 fractal_heart [~mzhang@c-67-169-82-117.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:35 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:55:16 Vichfret [~Vicfred@189.143.75.217] has joined #lisp 04:58:23 -!- Vichfret [~Vicfred@189.143.75.217] has quit [Client Quit] 04:58:47 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.87.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:00:42 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-124-13.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:51 jewel [~jewel@196.215.168.225] has joined #lisp 05:03:01 -!- chenbing [~user@115.205.3.182] has left #lisp 05:06:33 -!- phylllis [84aa4f89@gateway/web/freenode/ip.132.170.79.137] has left #lisp 05:07:13 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:08:17 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:38 f 05:09:51 g 05:10:35 is anyone using adw-charting library? line chart example on the official page doesn't work. 05:10:40 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:11:43 http://paste.lisp.org/display/126317 05:12:05 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 05:12:19 hrolf: try to use 145 instead of 145.00799942016602D0. 05:13:07 I'm not using 145 number anywhere, it's calculated by the library f unctions 05:13:15 (i assume) 05:13:36 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.42] has joined #lisp 05:13:50 You'll have to debug where it comes from. 05:13:55 -!- fractal_heart [~mzhang@c-67-169-82-117.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:13:55 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xovgvkvuaicqggvc] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:17:34 hrolf: if the slot is set with an accessor, you could add an :after method to coerce it to integer. Similarly with initialize-instance. 05:17:55 chenbing [~user@115.205.3.182] has joined #lisp 05:18:48 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p4FE33CF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:25 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-015.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:23:20 slime debugger is awesome :) 05:23:25 I found what's causing it 05:24:12 (make-instance 'graph-region ... :height (- height graph-margin graph-margin legend-space) ..) 05:24:26 legend-space is a float 05:24:29 Is there someone working on making cliki more modern looking? It feels 90s and makes me want to listen to Pearl Jam. 05:25:23 so I should add :after initialie-instance method as you suggested, and coerce height to int? 05:25:24 We don't really care. But if you think it could bring non-superficial newbies, nobody prevents you to design a nice css for it. 05:25:28 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177698504.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:26:29 hrolf: actually, it might be too late, the type test might be done before we can correct it. Better add a call to truncate or round in the make-instance call. 05:26:45 or make sure legend-space is an integer. 05:29:02 spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.32.97] has joined #lisp 05:29:18 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:30:05 beslyrus [~Brucio-12@adsl-99-49-14-228.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:13 -!- beslyrus [~Brucio-12@adsl-99-49-14-228.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:30:50 -!- hrolf [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (EOF)] 05:31:55 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #lisp 05:32:52 hrolf [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has joined #lisp 05:32:59 beslyrus [~Brucio-12@adsl-99-49-14-228.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:03 evening 05:34:24 here's the problematic function, make-instance in first let (I marked it) http://paste.lisp.org/display/126320 05:34:34 do I have to replace entire function? 05:35:08 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:36:12 height slot in that class has :type integer 05:36:49 saschakb__ [~saschakb@p4FEA036B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 05:38:54 what's the common way of patching other people's code? creating a new asd system that loads the one it's fixing, and then replaces whatever needs replacing 05:39:29 -!- saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA130D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:43:40 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@dD5770B9F.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:45:20 send an email with a diff 05:46:38 I meant for personal use 05:48:24 What does it mean if I see this in the sbcl statistical output (in :alloc mode): 05:48:28 1 2236 44.7 2236 44.7 2236 44.7 - (FLET #:CLEANUP-FUN-[CALL-WITH-RECURSIVE-SYSTEM-SPINLOCK/WITHOUT-GCING]267) 05:48:29 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:48:45 What is cleanup-fun? 05:49:02 clean up code in UNWIND-PROTECT 05:49:19 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:50:29 hmm, I don't think my code is using unwind-protect. Could it be used by something like the hashtable implementation? 05:51:34 jewel: that's why we have call graph data. Look at the cycle output. 05:51:37 quick question - when using a key-value API, would people prefer hash tables or a-lists? :) 05:51:53 pnathan: they're not equivalent 05:52:27 e.g. (get-some-data ) => data structure with key/value 05:52:30 i would use a hash table when i need a hash table, and alists or plists when i need them 05:53:52 pnathan: I'd have my own data structure. 05:54:27 It might be backed by an alist, plist or hash table, but that way the users don't have to care. 05:55:58 How do I interpret the call graph, does the first entry correspond to the first entry in the table output? 05:56:18 jewel: it's the same format as gprof. 05:56:55 anvandare [~anvandare@78-23-215-162.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 05:57:24 -!- chenbing [~user@115.205.3.182] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:58:31 pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 06:00:39 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.102] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 06:00:42 -!- vrook 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has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:47:25 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 08:48:09 good morning 08:51:27 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:51:32 hello there :D 08:54:51 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:55:46 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:56:43 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:57:38 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 08:58:46 e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-lojxajbqiepjwmaj] has joined #lisp 09:06:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.17.229] has joined #lisp 09:09:30 H4ns [~user@g231209233.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:11:27 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:12:07 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:14:42 H4ns` [~user@e179037229.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:14:50 -!- H4ns [~user@g231209233.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:14:53 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 09:19:12 -!- leo2007 [~leo@120.33.1.151] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 09:24:00 dys [~andreas@krlh-5f737b3b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:15 -!- gensym` [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:26:39 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:26:51 gabkck [~gabkck@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 09:26:56 hello 09:27:49 is there a way to get content of *slime-scratch* if emacs crashed? 09:28:03 gabkck: no 09:28:55 heh nice. first time I'm using it, my emacs is frozen and I think I'll have to kill it 09:29:03 gabkck: why? 09:29:12 gabkck: did you type C-g repeatedly already? 09:29:32 yes C-g, C-c C-c, C-break. it's frozen 09:29:59 gabkck: tough luck. what did you do to crash it? 09:30:12 gabkck: I am impressed - been using emacs since I started at university and I have never broken it so badly that I needed to kill it :o 09:30:15 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.95] has joined #lisp 09:30:19 I accidentally pressed some key combo and got View mode: type C-h for help, C-m for commands... 09:30:28 (can't read everything now) 09:30:43 are you familiar with that mode? 09:30:57 hi. i get an 404-error doing (asdf-install:install 'cl+ssl), is there a work-around? 09:31:03 gabkck: view mode? not really, but you are saying that emacs is "frozen". 09:31:08 trebor_dki: use quicklisp 09:31:31 yes it froze as soon as I accidentally invoked view mode 09:31:37 whatever that is 09:32:04 view-mode is for viewing text without being able to edit it 09:32:12 gabkck: view mode is a view-only mode. but that does certainly not freeze your emacs. it must have been something else. now emacs does not do anything anymore? 09:32:14 can you try M-x view-mode to deactivate it? 09:32:26 gabkck: or what do you mean by "frozen"? 09:32:27 no I can't type anything in emacs 09:32:44 gabkck: what happens if you type meta-x, for example? 09:32:45 it's not responding to any keys, and the window isn't even redrawing itself 09:32:58 H4ns: ... ok. never used it till now ... 09:33:01 gabkck: ok, then it is frozen. 09:33:08 trebor_dki: you are not going to look back. 09:33:15 trebor_dki: (other than in disgust) 09:34:02 gabkck: I use ~/scratch.lisp instead. 09:34:19 good idea 09:35:39 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:36:06 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 09:39:24 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:40:56 Kryztof [~user@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:41:24 -!- icke2342 [~pohl@192.166.201.59] has left #lisp 09:44:47 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.56] has joined #lisp 09:47:43 nostoi [~nostoi@164.Red-81-32-246.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:18 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:54:19 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 09:58:14 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-63-146.lns1.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:58:23 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@164.Red-81-32-246.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:58:38 saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA0AB6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:58:53 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:01:57 -!- saschakb__ [~saschakb@p4FEA036B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:04:28 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 10:08:27 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:10:24 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-zovmennbmnbrrnxw] has joined #lisp 10:10:37 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:11:58 gabkck: try q 10:12:07 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.12.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:12:16 you may have accidentally hit s 10:17:08 H4ns: (ql::quickload "cl+ssl") doesn't work either (seems to use asdf?) 10:17:35 trebor_dki: it does use asdf, yes. 10:17:50 trebor_dki: (ql:quickload "cl+ssl") works for me. 10:18:09 *trebor_dki* re-retries... 10:18:58 trebor_dki: if it does not work, consider telling us why and how. 10:19:03 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:19:34 -!- _mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:21:12 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 10:21:24 H4ns: i re{n>5}tried, but i get an "error while trying to load def for system cl+ssl .... file does not exist" 10:21:28 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:32 _mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 10:21:41 (i hope this is the how-part) 10:22:09 the asdf-try returned 404-error 10:22:23 trebor_dki: asdf-try? i have never heard that. 10:22:53 trebor_dki: you know, if the error message is long and contains a stack trace, it is usually best to paste that to paste.lisp.org rather than trying to explain it in the channel. 10:22:53 daniel__ [~daniel@p508290CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:23 H4ns: i meant that i was trying (asdf-install:install "cl+ssl") before i tried quicklisp 10:23:27 trebor_dki: from what you wrote, though, i'd say your environment is broken. you probably have asdf customizations that conflict with quicklisp. or you use common-lisp-controller, which is broken. 10:23:35 trebor_dki: i never used asdf-install and i never will. 10:25:24 trebor_dki: my recommendation thus is: remove all asdf related customizations from your lisp startup file, use (ql:add-to-init-file) to have quicklisp add its startup code to your startup file, restart the lisp, try ql:quickload again. 10:25:25 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p508297DC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:26:04 trebor_dki: and if you're a debian user, deinstall the sbcl debian package and install sbcl from the tarball found at www.sbcl.org. 10:28:28 gensym` [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:20 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 10:29:23 H4ns: (that is/was the paste http://paste.lisp.org/display/126325) - but yes, i am a debian user ... 10:29:43 -!- wadexing [~wadexing@219.234.141.122] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:29:55 trebor_dki: ok. so you have your advice. 10:30:28 H4ns: thanks for your hint, i will cancel the cl+ssl thing for now 10:30:53 trebor_dki: try (ql:where-is-system "cl+ssl") 10:30:53 What about clesh as a name - common lisp embedded shell 10:31:22 Vivitron: he'll not have any fun trying to mix quicklisp and the borked common-lisp-controller setup. 10:31:24 trebor_dki: it should be in a subtree of ~/quicklisp/dists/... 10:31:32 Vivitron: look at the stack trace. 10:32:09 is the common-lisp-controller stuff tied to the sbcl install? 10:32:19 Vivitron: thanks for your hint, i get the same error as before - as H4ns suggests my sbcl is too old 10:32:40 Vivitron: no, but it performs a global setup for asdf that conflicts with quicklisp 10:33:13 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 10:33:23 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-193-56.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:33:27 another reason might be, that i do only personal installations (no root rights here) 10:33:47 trebor_dki: install yourself a private copy of sbcl 10:34:54 H4ns: sure (if i would wait for out it ...) 10:35:08 s/it/IT-dep 10:36:23 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:44:08 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-66-63.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 10:48:15 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 10:49:04 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 10:49:22 tfb [~tfb@92.40.197.143.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:50:21 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:51:06 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.56] has joined #lisp 10:51:07 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-iwibdgyfjyparehy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:55:57 drl_ [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 10:57:04 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:57:36 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 10:57:47 I have a loop construct that iterates over a list items, does some heavy computation on each item, collects the result while there is one and returns the list of computated items plus the rest of the list... Can someone have a look at it if its okay this way? 10:58:19 gensym: if you'd paste the source to paste.lisp.org, someone could. 10:58:20 *gensym* waiting for lisppaste 10:58:25 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.20.27.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:58:27 No, nobody can, without your sources. 10:58:30 gensym: you need to paste the url manually. 10:58:33 k 10:59:15 args, it's gone - I'll retry 10:59:45 http://paste.lisp.org/display/126326 this? 11:00:17 stassats`: yes 11:00:19 thanks! 11:00:42 -!- pitlimit [~pitlimit@unaffiliated/pitlimit] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:00:43 (forgot the history - was reposting it with emacs/w3m) 11:01:16 looks good. 11:02:04 pjb: okay, thanks! 11:04:56 yake [~yake@115.223.15.21] has joined #lisp 11:06:11 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 11:06:37 gensym: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126326 11:07:10 stassats`: wow! very nice! 11:08:30 gensym: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126326#2 less consing 11:10:55 hiho 11:11:25 stassats`: that took a while, got it now - very cool! 11:11:37 anyone else thinks that alexandria should be split up into modules? 11:11:55 el-maxo: what's a "module"? 11:12:01 another interesting way, but it's less efficient: (map-into (copy-seq list) #'write-to-string (subseq list 0 (position 5 list :test #'<=))) 11:12:10 -!- YuleAthas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:12:35 H4ns: a piece of a modular system 11:13:00 el-maxo: that much i know, but what is a module in the context of common lisp. i.e. what do you propose? 11:13:20 H4ns: I would split it up in multiple packages 11:13:28 why ? 11:13:30 el-maxo: why? 11:13:36 for example a alexandria.plist package 11:13:48 hrm, looks like new changes in slime cause dead locks 11:13:58 and how am i supposed to approach it? 11:14:36 because I'd like to use doplist, but I dont see what all the other plist unrelated stuff in lists.lisp is there for 11:14:55 that's simple, just don't look at other stuff 11:15:22 stassats`: no 11:15:23 el-maxo: putting the plist related stuff into a separate file may be a sensible thing to do. using multiple packages would be rather annoying. 11:15:45 el-maxo: how about "pretend it doesn't exist"? 11:15:54 stassats`: same thing 11:16:12 I don't want to compile/load 100 functions if I need one 11:16:23 I would be ok with 5 or ecen 15 11:16:26 even* 11:16:34 if they relate to each other 11:16:34 el-maxo: do you use a _very_ slow machine? 11:16:37 stassats`: the map-into won't work in my case, because the end-condition depends on the heavy computation (here write-to-string) to return nil ... 11:16:44 H4ns: Im just sensible 11:17:07 el-maxo: i disagree. i think you're constructing a problem where there is none. 11:17:09 and I do use "slow" machines 11:17:13 el-maxo: you forgot "in" 11:18:15 you've already spent more time discussing it on IRC than it will ever consume while being compiled 11:18:31 I disagree 11:18:48 it's bad design 11:18:55 el-maxo: besides, having separate packages doesn't help at all 11:18:56 el-maxo: well, then, if you are prepared to do the work, just do it. 11:18:59 you'd need separate systems 11:19:01 "nobody cares behause we got dual cores" is not an argument 11:19:01 well, the answer to your original question "no, no one ever thought about splitting it" 11:19:06 el-maxo: it is. 11:19:22 el-maxo: otherwise, we could all program in assembler because it is "more efficient" 11:19:23 el-maxo: i'd try tackling it when it seems to become a problem, so far i haven't encountered any issues. i understand that you want to use computing resources in an efficient manner, but spending resources on solving it is a waste as well. therefore, wait until it's a problem, then figure out a solution (i'm sure there is one). 11:19:42 _dual_ cores? what are you, a hobo? 11:19:44 Ralith: why not? 11:20:03 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:20:12 stassats`: a man with few resources 11:20:17 besides, try to save time on compile time is a waste of time 11:20:20 el-maxo: because packages have little relevance to the standard build systems 11:20:21 trying* 11:20:31 daimrod: careful, that's how we got C++ 11:20:38 el-maxo: see, there's both human resources and computing resources which have a value. you need to optimize the combination of both. 11:21:03 ok another issue: namespace pollution 11:21:15 Ralith: imo that's not a problem with lisp, you just compile your program once and then add new functions while it's running. 11:21:17 el-maxo: as i said: if you want to improve alexandria, do it. you need to consider backwards compatibility, but other than that it is just a smop. 11:21:20 el-maxo: does my explenation make sense to you? 11:21:23 there's no such issue 11:21:27 daimrod: good point 11:21:39 -!- yake [~yake@115.223.15.21] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 11:21:45 madnificent: yes but it misses the point 11:21:46 It's a problem when you've to compile your program to test it every time. 11:21:51 el-maxo: being? 11:21:55 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 11:22:01 you should only have to compile something once per installation, plus any edits or fasl-incompatible impl upgrades you make 11:22:15 el-maxo: no one else shares your sentiment and your arguments are not convincing 11:22:23 stassats`: thats ok 11:22:36 Yes, just like the linux kernel, you don't complain because it comes with modules you don't use. 11:22:37 madnificent: e.g. namespace pollution 11:22:44 el-maxo: import-from 11:22:57 daimrod: I compile it without some modules 11:23:05 and I never said I got love for the linux kernel 11:23:09 so, even if you modify alexandria in such a way, i doubt anybody would want to use it, let alone including it into upstream 11:23:23 daimrod: so import-from only compiles a specific function? 11:23:39 so if you're short on microseconds, just copy the definitions you need into your code 11:23:50 el-maxo: I don't think so, but you won't « polute » your namespace. 11:23:57 el-maxo: with respect to namespace pollution you could check out package local nicknames. i feel like it could be a sensible point, but i haven't encountered many issues with it so far 11:25:55 el-maxo: importing symbols in lisp packages is handled rather nicely, which makes the issues far less common. 11:26:28 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.56] has joined #lisp 11:26:47 so imagine I want to create an executable. And I import a few functions from a few pretty big systems (like alexandria), will the resulting core dump be created intelligently? or will it include the used systems as a whole? 11:27:04 el-maxo: did you ever dump a core for yourself? 11:27:14 I did, they were huge 11:27:16 no, it won't be, and they will be included 11:27:22 el-maxo: and that is how it will be. 11:27:45 el-maxo: executables are rarely ever small in lisp. they contain a full compiler for the lisp language and all. it seems you *can* create rather small executables with ECL though. 11:28:16 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 11:28:19 el-maxo: if you are looking for a language that produces minimal executables, maybe consider using c. 11:28:28 yeah I tried ecl, it gave pretty good results 11:28:44 and don't forget to account for libc and kernel! 11:28:44 H4ns: well not minimal, but reasonable 11:28:49 H4ns: or perhaps construct something in the likes of: distribute the VM and the fasls? 11:29:34 el-maxo: i don't seem to share your definition of "reasonable". 11:30:42 el-maxo: lisp gains on the ground of vastly minimizing the time you need to code stuff. it may take a while to get used to vast amount of constructs available to you, but you can get by with much less time programming. it isn't perfect for *all* use-cases. i can't imagine a use-case in which i'd *prefer* not to use lisp though. 11:31:23 you won't use lisp to scare children, there's java for that 11:32:20 madnificent: I agree, I like C, but Id rather code all but minimal parts of my system in CL, so I am trying to find a way to use lisp for as many cases as possible. 11:32:42 web-apps are no problem obviously 11:32:50 PHP is good for scaring children. 11:33:10 but what about little cli tools etc, maybe an editor thats slim 11:33:29 also what about a 12Mhz CPU + 2.5KB ram 11:33:49 I would love to run lisp on that, but I donÄt know if its currently possible 11:33:55 Well, Common Lisp isn't usually the first choice for running on tiny stuff, but there are a bunch of really small Schemes. 11:33:56 it isn't 11:33:57 el-maxo: it is not, will not. 11:34:24 *stassats`* has no problems with command line utilities taking up 50 Mb 11:34:27 -!- waveman [~tim@203-214-39-56.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:34:36 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: work?] 11:34:40 stassats`: thats sad 11:34:57 Memory is cheap. 11:35:13 nothing is cheap 11:35:15 el-maxo: stop using a shell :), but use the same running lisp for everything 11:35:45 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.162.86] has joined #lisp 11:36:06 I wouldn't like it if my OS shipped with something like that, but if I had stuff to get done and it was to run on a modern PC, I don't really see a problem with that. 11:36:09 daimrod: that is kind of my vision, but lot's of work to be done until one can call SBCL an OS 11:36:45 also what do you run it on, an os on an os... I don't know 11:36:52 el-maxo: Use stumpwm, ???, profit 11:36:57 zakwilson: is your OS shipped with, say, perl? 11:37:17 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 11:37:18 *el-maxo* is happy he never had to use perl 11:37:44 you can pack all your utilities into a single executable with SBCL, and it will take as much space as perl or java or whatever 11:37:50 daimrod: its just a WM 11:37:50 It is, but I don't think any of the major command line utilities are written in it. 11:38:07 -!- djuber [~djuber@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:39:03 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:39:14 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-24-218-184-186.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:39:20 quasisane [~sanep@c-24-218-184-186.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:52 i guess that's because people writing operating systems don't value their time 11:39:58 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.162.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:40:14 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:40:30 el-maxo: lisp isn't optimized for that kind of use, afaict, but it has been used on very very old processors, so a subset should be runnable anyways. with respect to the terminal: i haven't done it yet, and it may not be so handy, but i think i'd try to run a lisp image in the backend continously and connect to it to run commands. that way the image size matters far less. 11:40:32 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 11:41:22 el-maxo: i think focussing on really really small devices might not be the smartest thing to do, the future brings faster devices, and it brings them fast (like the raspberry pi) 11:42:00 el-maxo: i share your interest in the domain though, i like to micro-optimize from time to time. but in other times, i'd like to write something usable, quickly. 11:42:13 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:42:56 el-maxo: i also noticed that the lisp image size is rather big, however the overhead is a constant. when you're constructing memory-intensive applications, it quickly fades away, as the internal data-structures can be made efficiently in lisp, easily. 11:43:54 i can even run lisp on my phone and it doesn't mind its size 11:45:10 stassats`: which one was that again? 11:45:59 galaxy s2 11:46:37 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:46:49 stassats`: cool, does it run fast enough 11:46:55 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 11:48:20 *H4ns* is blasted away by the speed of common lisp again 11:48:41 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:48:59 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 11:49:25 i mean, i have to use this very stupid mysql library that does not know prepared statements and wants me to send all sql as strings, including paramters 11:49:47 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:50:15 but then, i'm just using format to construct the sql and it is so fast that i find no reason to keep up the complaints. i mean, it is shit, but then, it is mysql anyway. 11:50:16 there's a CL library for mysql 11:50:37 sort of 11:51:27 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:52:16 there's also http://gitorious.org/squalor, though it's just a hacky proof of concept 11:52:45 anyway, is there any SQL server that accepts an AST rather than strings ? 11:52:58 well, this works so well and so fast that my temptation to try something else just because it is "better" is not very big. 11:53:47 fe[nl]ix: no SQL server that I'm aware of, but the mongodb and elasticsearch query languages consist of data structures rather than strings 11:56:55 Parsing takes epsilon resources compared to the rest of the processing of the query. 11:56:59 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 11:57:31 Otherwise, there are stored procedures. 11:57:32 fe[nl]ix: most SQL servers do practice precompilation 11:57:53 H4ns: the only real reasons why i wouldn't use strings is that you could handle sql injection attacs on a higher level. and the fact that you could, perhaps, make it easier to reuse parts of your query. 11:58:02 so, for instance, if you use a prepared statement, the first time you use it the query compiler has to run; the second and subsequent it uses the cached compiled query 11:58:29 madnificent: composable queries are the main thing I'd want out of it 11:58:31 (depending on database) 11:58:52 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 11:58:57 madnificent: if you do things properly, sql injection is a complete non-issue these days 11:59:04 madnificent: the query is completely generated by format statements anyway, so this is not much of a concern in this application. for hand-coded stuff, i like s-sql much better than string concatenation, though. 11:59:47 madnificent: i'm not troubled by the performance of strings, but by the inconvenience of working with them at the source level. same with html in that respect. 12:02:04 madnificent: 10 times slower than on desktop, but i can use slime comfortably 12:02:31 H4ns: html maps to s-expressions in such a sexy way that i really don't want to write html directly. for sql it's different. 12:02:33 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.162.115] has joined #lisp 12:02:52 madnificent: s-sql suits me well. 12:03:18 i found s-sql to be nice in the past as well, though i seem to remember that it required slightly more typing than entering the sql query directly 12:04:18 i cringe every time i have to write sql directly 12:09:48 nialo [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:05 Karl_H [~Karl_H@g228226123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:10:05 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:10:23 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 12:12:16 waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has joined #lisp 12:12:47 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.162.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:14:11 -!- Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Cryotank2011] 12:15:41 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has joined #lisp 12:16:12 Whatever happened to the GUI beach was working on? 12:17:38 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:58 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 12:18:35 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f737b3b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:18:38 -!- saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA0AB6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:19:13 dys [~andreas@krlh-5f737b3b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:29 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-58-150.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:23:00 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:27:52 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:31:38 saschakb_ [~saschakb@p4FEA0D01.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:33:31 add^_ [~add^_^@h153n1c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 12:35:54 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.165.2] has joined #lisp 12:38:11 YuleAthas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 12:41:35 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 12:45:13 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:55:25 yes raw sql is boring 13:00:46 H4ns: where is s-sql site? 13:02:49 chenbing: http://marijnhaverbeke.nl/postmodern/ 13:03:50 oh it's postgresql binding 13:04:19 chenbing: yes and no. s-sql is separate from postmodern. 13:04:26 chenbing: (conceptionally) 13:08:40 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wjpmnajjqdeynimy] has left #lisp 13:09:05 -!- daedric [~daedric@2a01:e0b:1:124:ca0a:a9ff:fe03:3b99] has quit [Quit: Bye] 13:10:32 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-206-250.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:10:38 daedric [~daedric@2a01:e0b:1:124:ca0a:a9ff:fe03:3b99] has joined #lisp 13:12:51 drl: and on a related note, where did beach go? 13:13:41 -!- scode [~scode@pollux.scode.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:14:27 html maps with cl-who? 13:14:56 -!- pon1980 [~pon@195-67-88-105.customer.telia.com] has left #lisp 13:15:11 No, I use my own HTML generator. 13:18:19 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:18:51 _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has joined #lisp 13:19:40 *madnificent* also uses his own html generator 13:20:41 :-) 13:20:42 Damn, I'm not leet enough for you guys 13:20:55 *phryk* goes into the corner to be ashamed of using cl-who :( 13:21:01 *jdz* uses his own web framework 13:21:09 chenbing: have a look at https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blobs/master/common-lisp/html-generator/html-generators-in-lisp.txt 13:21:47 phryk: be glad that you don't have NIH syndrome 13:22:39 *jdz* does not have NIH syndrome, just disappointed that none of the existing frameworks are based on CLIM 13:22:42 I would like to set up a new webserver with hunchentoot (or toot), but it seems to be so much in flux right now 13:23:08 Not really. 13:23:11 Neronus: there are no big changes planned in hunchentoot. 13:23:19 And when it's not in flux, it's not maintained. 13:23:22 stassats`: NIH? 13:23:31 Not Invented HEre 13:23:40 Oh, I do kindof have that. 13:23:48 H4ns: Good to know. So I now have a weekend project \o/ 13:23:53 But it stops after at some point. 13:24:17 Neronus: yes, rewrite hunchentoot, since it's not maintained anymore. 13:24:41 *phryk* uses hunchentoot 13:24:46 pjb: I said weekend, not month 13:24:50 I think most of the libs I use are the weitz ones 13:25:13 the weitz stuff 13:25:32 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.228.89.171] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:25:39 -!- waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has quit [Quit: waltwhite] 13:25:58 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:26:11 pjb: Also, I thought that was gigamonkey's weekend project :) 13:27:00 his is more like "strip hunchentoot" 13:29:10 Neronus: toot is in some flux, hunchentoot has always been rock-stable. it's so widely used that even the slightest changes can create some fuzz. 13:29:47 madnificent: hunchentoot basically has been so stable because there was no release for over a year 13:31:01 Karl_H1 [~Karl_H@f049167236.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:32:07 -!- Karl_H [~Karl_H@g228226123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:32:08 ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 13:34:20 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:34:53 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-193-56.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 13:36:27 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@122.166.144.79] has joined #lisp 13:36:27 -!- CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@122.166.144.79] has quit [Changing host] 13:36:27 CrazyThinker [~CrazyThin@unaffiliated/crazythinker] has joined #lisp 13:39:44 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@host71.190-226-30.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 13:40:27 Noctifer [~Noctifer@82.113.119.155] has joined #lisp 13:43:32 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@ool-ade56420.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:09 -!- p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-bkxrprhglwixncim] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:24 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-193-56.uio.no] has joined #lisp 13:49:27 Neronus: toot is in flux, hunchentoot is not maintained. You definitely need to implement your own web server this week end. 13:53:34 fmeyer [~fmeyer@201.87.5.146.user.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 13:55:28 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:56:13 Neronus: and pjb is messing with you 13:56:32 -!- kephas is now known as nowhere_man 13:56:49 pjb: i once did it, probably because my troubled view on programming at the day made all lisp solutions look improper. 13:57:23 Xach: your ql download statistics would be _much_ more interesting if we'd knew more about the dependency downloads ... the simplest thing would be to mark them as dependency, but if slime needs alexandria and one of my projects needs it too, it should be counted as 1 times needed (and not only as dependency) ... don't know what's the best way for that. 13:57:26 pjb: i'm happy i can rely on other webservers these days 13:57:49 flip214: I agree. Those statistics will not be forthcoming. 13:58:00 perhaps simply using a (re-written) URL with /is-dep/ in it, so that you can distinguish the dep-downloads? 13:58:14 There are many ways, but I am not interested in implementing any of them. 13:58:19 ;( 13:58:21 flip214: i don't know if that'd be that easy. it be required by some library which the user is writing and which isn't in quicklisp as well. 13:58:26 flip214: you could try to create that graph yourself, by looking at the dist definitions. 13:58:27 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 13:58:36 Xach: would you accept patches? (i don't want to write them, others may) 13:58:39 No. 13:58:55 flip214: you're out of luck 13:59:14 hmmm, not only me ... 13:59:46 but perhaps a statistical approach would work ... of N ql systems, M need alexandria - so M/N of X are dependency downloads ... 13:59:48 flip214: who else? 14:00:08 H4ns: everyone who's interested in such statistics? I don't think it's only me 14:00:38 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.56] has joined #lisp 14:00:59 flip214: do something about it then :) - it won't be very accurate, but at least it will be wrong in a different way 14:01:52 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:02:44 madnificent: I was guessing so, but thanks for confirming :) 14:02:57 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:04 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:03:07 -!- udzinari [90a0621f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.144.160.98.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:05:27 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:05:46 *rudi* sends small parts of Norway's oil fortune towards Xach 14:06:10 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 14:06:24 tusen tack 14:06:32 slime 14:07:03 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.56] has joined #lisp 14:07:09 -!- gabkck [~gabkck@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)] 14:07:51 i'm sorry, wrong window, i typed it in emacs ) 14:11:16 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:11:34 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 14:14:38 -!- bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:14:53 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:00 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-038.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:16:34 bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:17:37 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 14:22:20 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:24:25 Let the hacking commence! 14:25:59 actually can we postpone the hacking 14:29:19 -!- bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:29:19 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:29:19 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:29:19 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:29:19 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:29:19 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:29:19 -!- prip [~foo@host159-132-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:31:31 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.56] has joined #lisp 14:31:39 bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:31:39 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:31:39 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:31:39 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:39 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:39 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:39 prip [~foo@host159-132-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:31:40 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:31:47 -!- bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:32:03 bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:33:40 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:49 G'morning all. 14:33:53 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 14:34:59 ThomasH [4b1349ad@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 14:35:06 Greetings lispers. 14:35:12 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:35:14 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:36:28 -!- kilon is now known as kilon_afk 14:38:35 hello you two. 14:40:07 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:07 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:40:07 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 14:41:26 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:46 yake [~yake@115.223.15.21] has joined #lisp 14:44:33 waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has joined #lisp 14:45:15 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:45:52 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:48:24 Karl_H [~Karl_H@f049074240.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:49:47 -!- Karl_H1 [~Karl_H@f049167236.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:51:04 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.17.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:52:29 -!- yake [~yake@115.223.15.21] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 14:52:46 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@host71.190-226-30.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:55:21 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:57:22 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:57:23 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-212.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:48 The_third_bug [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:48 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:57:48 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@2.129.36.209] has joined #lisp 14:57:50 -!- The_third_bug [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59:21 The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.10.185] has joined #lisp 15:00:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.10.185] has quit [Changing host] 15:00:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:00:15 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-038.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:00:26 "load binds *readtable* and *package* to the values they held before loading the file." <- That simplifies things. 15:01:27 -!- Noctifer [~Noctifer@82.113.119.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:02:04 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-039.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:02:31 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.56] has joined #lisp 15:02:47 Noctifer [~Noctifer@82.113.119.155] has joined #lisp 15:03:11 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-216-238.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:29 i copy the orig readtable at the beginning of my .sbclrc and restore it at the end of it 15:03:38 after loading all the packages etc.... 15:04:07 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:04:49 how do I check for types properly? 15:05:18 el-maxo: there are several tools for it. one option is check-type. 15:05:31 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 15:05:32 Sometimes the proper way to handle types is to not check for them. 15:06:05 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.19.108] has joined #lisp 15:06:50 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:07:26 is there something like check-type but without the error? like (type-p place typespec) => t/nil 15:07:41 el-maxo: why yes, it is called "typep" 15:07:49 ah 15:09:25 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-116-46.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:09:26 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.50.248] has joined #lisp 15:09:31 -!- YuleAthas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09:31 Hi all! 15:09:43 and i have set print-float to single-precision...... 15:09:49 lol 15:09:52 el-maxo: I find the permuted index very helpful when searching for a function that I know must be *somewhere* - it's at http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Symbol.htm 15:10:01 i hope it does not confuse other things..... 15:10:22 e.g. scrolling down http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Perm_T.htm gets you all functions with a "type" in them 15:10:35 antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-nfoebqwgonmoohyz] has joined #lisp 15:12:27 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:14:41 -!- kilon_afk [~thekilon@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:14:50 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 15:15:45 H4ns: ok. thanks. works now. (needed to update sbcl + slime and rename .sbcl) 15:16:21 trebor_dki: cool. i can assure you, quicklisp will be a much better experience than asdf-install has ever been. 15:16:53 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-20-255.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:17:17 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:16 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:18:21 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:21 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-191.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:18:21 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 15:20:01 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:20:07 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-039.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:25:28 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:53 can expand-macro fully?((macroexpand-1 '(cond (a b) (c d e)(t f))) in sbcl displays a successive 'cond 15:29:11 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:30:35 another 'cond 15:31:13 oudeis [~oudeis@94.197.127.10.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:31:25 chenbing: C-c M-m with SLIME 15:31:34 you need macroexpand-all 15:31:57 Nauntilus [~Benji@wsip-68-14-222-194.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:23 works thanks 15:37:15 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.2.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:37:22 -!- H4ns [~user@e179037229.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: home] 15:37:44 mensch [~mensch@c-67-189-241-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:19 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-044.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:39:34 _nix00 [~Adium@58.33.108.7] has joined #lisp 15:44:31 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.106] has joined #lisp 15:44:41 tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:07 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.165.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:45:18 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 15:46:38 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@ool-ade56420.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:46:41 you can quickload the package macroexpand-dammit 15:46:51 it handles compiler macros too 15:47:35 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-wveioytyqmjqhhui] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:53:50 Xach: I found why 15:54:26 p_l|vpn [~pl@89.248.171.140] has joined #lisp 15:54:49 Xach: I have (:tree "/home/kanru/quicklisp/") in ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/01-quicklisp.conf and that changed the find-system logic 15:54:56 kanru: aha 15:55:06 Why did you do that? 15:55:11 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.158] has quit [Quit: am0c] 15:55:37 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.158] has joined #lisp 15:55:52 kanru: glad you found it, too...I was scratching my head, chin, and head in a cycle that left me nearly bald and beardless 15:56:51 Because I wanted to load systems via asdf when dumping image 16:00:26 Xach: That's a very nice image, and I'm sure I'll quote it, given the occasion. Another favorite is "I'd rather suck a dog's nose dry than..." 16:01:37 KingNato_ [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:38 -!- KingNato_ [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:02:23 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@94.197.127.10.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:02:28 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:02:38 -!- e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-lojxajbqiepjwmaj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:03:01 Karl_H1 [~Karl_H@g228136128.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:03:36 -!- Karl_H [~Karl_H@f049074240.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:05:30 heh.. sorry Xach, I wish your beard longer than the knee ;) 16:05:38 -!- KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:05:43 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:05:53 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:05:59 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ensulwelidsrwwtj] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:06:12 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 16:08:05 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bbl] 16:11:17 H4ns [~user@p5B3D554E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:55 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 16:14:20 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 16:14:52 H4ns` [~user@p5B3D5095.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:57 teggi [~teggi@123.20.27.230] has joined #lisp 16:15:07 -!- Kryztof [~user@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:16:04 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:37 -!- H4ns [~user@p5B3D554E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:18:44 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:19:38 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:20:21 linluxiang [~linluxian@183.5.134.180] has joined #lisp 16:25:52 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-402935.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:26:23 -!- linluxiang [~linluxian@183.5.134.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:07 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-82.dyn.columbia.edu] has left #lisp 16:27:14 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:28:28 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 16:28:39 ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 16:30:11 Why are Genera systems still supported in things like ASDF? I'm of the opinion that the threshold for dropping Genera support has been reached and anyone still using Genera is responsible for figuring out how to place nice with others. 16:30:12 linluxiang [~linluxian@183.5.134.180] has joined #lisp 16:30:58 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 16:31:26 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 16:33:15 ThomasH: partially for fun? 16:33:38 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:35:29 p_l|vpn: So... I see that you're a masochist. 16:35:59 ThomasH: not me 16:36:01 :) 16:36:07 ThomasH: perhaps there's a genera user who submits patches? 16:36:14 ThomasH: how are you bothered by the genera support? 16:36:19 The same goes for GCL. 16:36:39 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 16:36:57 ThomasH: I think there's more sense in supporting Genera than GCL, though 16:37:04 H4ns: I clutters the code with #-genera #+genera, Bah! Remove those forms. 16:37:08 *It* 16:37:26 *ThomasH* sounds like Gollum, "I clutters the code". 16:38:35 Well, don't remove the #-genera forms, just the #-genera. 16:39:25 so if i understand correctly, people are now angry that others *support* systems they may never use 16:39:42 madnificent: "people"? 16:40:14 madnificent: No, I'm annoyed that I have to read through code for obscure systems. 16:40:55 ThomasH: you don't have to read it. and, when it comes to "obscure", common lisp itself is "obscure". 16:41:50 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:11 H4ns: i didn't want to offend ThomasH, so i preffered not to shout at him (and now that's been fixed) 16:42:47 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:42:57 spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-140-186.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:43:00 ThomasH: use emacs + slime, and these forms will be colored as comments 16:43:04 H4ns: All things are relative. madnificent: I'm not easy to offend, criticism is the manure in which we grow best. 16:44:53 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-044.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:46:12 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 16:49:19 ThomasH: what rudy says could be an idea, it shouldn't be too hard to write an emacs extension which hides the genera code, or replacing it with a simple commented genera-code or something of the likes. 16:49:36 madnificent: Definitely. 16:49:50 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-146.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:50:00 there's no need to hid it, it's already highlighted with comment-face 16:50:17 rtoyg [chatzilla@nat/google/x-mwmumdtmgmcuymwr] has joined #lisp 16:50:31 *madnificent* uses that power to make emacs display and, or, not, <= etc in mathematical symbols instead of full words 16:51:52 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-212.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:52:02 -!- linluxiang [~linluxian@183.5.134.180] has quit [Quit: linluxiang] 16:52:07 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-193-56.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 16:52:20 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-146.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:53:36 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:54:48 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-146.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:56:40 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:57:26 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 17:05:17 coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:17 -!- coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:05:17 coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 17:09:31 antifuchs [~foobar@guestnet.franz.com] has joined #lisp 17:12:54 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-zovmennbmnbrrnxw] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:15:48 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:35 joseph_ [~duomo@cpe-69-204-168-98.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:19:24 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@2.129.36.209] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:19:25 Cristi_ [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has joined #lisp 17:20:00 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 17:21:31 thekilon [~kilon@athedsl-402935.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:22:20 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:22:23 p8m_ [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has joined #lisp 17:22:25 drl__ [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 17:22:28 sacho [~sacho@92-247-208-87.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 17:23:10 -!- duomo [~duomo@cpe-69-204-168-98.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:23:11 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:23:11 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-402935.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:23:11 -!- ThePawnBreak [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:23:11 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:23:11 -!- drl_ [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:23:11 -!- p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:23:48 gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:28 lghtng [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/lghtng] has joined #lisp 17:24:50 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.102] has joined #lisp 17:25:10 osa1 [~sinan@141.196.171.140] has joined #lisp 17:26:31 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:27:03 H4ns: I don't like Genera support because it pushes complications throughout the rest of the code. And I do like reading and reviewing code. 17:27:05 -!- ThomasH [4b1349ad@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:27:58 Xach: i can't really judge because i have not been bothered. i dislike conditionally compiled code, too, in general, but i kind of have a soft spot for genera. 17:28:18 H4ns: It seems like many people have such a soft spot. I am not sure whether it is in the heart or head. 17:28:45 Xach: i'm not going to kill for it. genera is as dead as an operating system can be. 17:29:16 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-68-139.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:29:20 I am not too troubled by legacy support, where making changes to something old has a cost (e.g. in CLX) 17:29:40 Adding complications and conditional changes in modern software for the sake of antique I am less enthusiastic about. 17:29:46 soooo quicklisp could run on genera? (: 17:30:14 *Xach* hasn't tried 17:30:28 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:30:38 hey, anyone uses scsh? i wonder what's the best way to parse command line arguments 17:30:48 cmm [~cmm@109.67.199.25] has joined #lisp 17:31:00 Dodek: the people in #scheme might be able to help you (: 17:31:02 antifuchs: I suspect you'd have to add code for sockets, but other than that... 17:31:12 yeah 17:31:15 Dodek: look for Scheme48? 17:31:31 p_l|vpn: don't forget changing every :use :cl 17:31:33 just kidding. until that commit, I didn't even know anyone ever ran asdf on genera. 17:31:38 p_l|vpn: what do you mean? 17:31:46 antifuchs: see the COMPATFMT stuff also. 17:31:52 Xach: doesn't late genera have it? 17:31:59 wow genera looks impressive 17:32:04 Dodek: scsh is based on Scheme48 17:32:05 antifuchs: ok, i'll try there. 17:32:12 p_l|vpn: i know, but how is it relevant? 17:32:13 p_l|vpn: What, and leave all the early genera users out in the cold? 17:32:23 p_l|vpn: You'd have a geriatric riot on your hands 17:32:27 oh god 17:32:30 Xach: wtf 17:32:48 Xach: ... if they run anything older than 8.x shouldn't complain 17:33:04 *they shouldn't 17:33:18 p_l|vpn: That is simply playing god 17:33:35 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:33:42 antifuchs: Sorry, did not mean to put the image of a geriatric riot into your mind. 17:33:53 "Hells Grannies"? 17:33:58 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@58.33.108.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:33:58 Why are you discarding support for genera <=8.0, Dr. Kraken?! 17:34:02 nyef: *g* 17:34:19 Xach: I was more upset about compatfmt (: 17:34:58 _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.112.198] has joined #lisp 17:35:09 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.199.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:36:05 cmm [~cmm@109.67.199.25] has joined #lisp 17:37:56 -!- thekilon is now known as kilon 17:41:14 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-214-130.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 17:41:58 Morning. 17:44:26 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 17:48:03 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:53 gigamonkey: Any toot support emails yet? 17:50:27 Heh. No. 17:50:31 dysinger_ [~dysinger@cpe-98-150-152-24.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:50:53 You'd have stats that would show if anyone has grabbed it, right? 17:51:39 Yes. 17:52:13 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:52:26 So has anyone? 17:52:50 10 so far 17:53:26 I have both writing some actual docs and blogging about it on my todo list. 17:53:53 In the meantime, if anyone shows up asking about it, their best bet is to maybe look at the source of manifest and whistle to see how they each use it. 17:53:57 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:55:09 -!- gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:55:22 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:55:24 Karl_H [~Karl_H@f048049105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:56:27 And to look at the manifest docs for toot. 17:56:47 -!- Karl_H1 [~Karl_H@g228136128.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:57:02 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:58:07 morning 17:58:16 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.197.143.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:58:49 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-191-12.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:59:10 beslyrus: have you looked at toot at all? 17:59:33 Now available via quicklisp. 17:59:48 you should buy ads on planet lisp (-: 17:59:52 (I recall you were looking for something easier to hack upon han Hunchentoot.) 17:59:53 gigamonkey: sorry to so I haven't had a chance to yet. I'd like to though. 18:00:15 beslyrus: cool. I'm in no big rush. 18:00:17 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:07:30 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 18:08:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:16:40 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:16:41 what compatibility layer should i use instead of sb-ext:run-program ? 18:16:48 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.112.198] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:18:46 if you're on sbcl only, I hear commando is nice 18:19:07 ... If you're on SBCL only, I hear that SB-EXT:RUN-PROGRAM is nice. 18:19:23 nyef: exactly. 18:19:34 i'm not on sbcl only, though. 18:20:06 -!- Karl_H [~Karl_H@f048049105.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 18:21:00 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:21:52 Dodek: asdf includes something like that in asdf:run-shell-command 18:22:05 Dodek: It does not have the same features as run-program, so its suitability will depend on your needs. 18:22:26 Xach: all i want to do is to run a shell command, imagemagick one to be precise. 18:22:42 Dodek: asdf:run-shell-command will probably do what you need. 18:22:56 I think there is also trivial-shell 18:23:13 oh trivial-shell seems to be exactly what i need 18:26:29 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:27:42 chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:53 -!- chromaticwt [~user@67-41-15-81.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:02 -!- sacho [~sacho@92-247-208-87.spectrumnet.bg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:29:19 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 18:30:49 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:31:10 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 18:32:21 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:33:25 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:35:34 stickycake [~stickycak@ool-ade56669.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:34 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@ool-ade56669.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:36 -!- naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:37:27 -!- p_l|vpn [~pl@89.248.171.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:38:23 naryl [~weechat@188.134.95.93] has joined #lisp 18:39:20 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:39:39 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 18:40:56 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.50.248] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:41:55 -!- Utkarsh [~quassel@li118-209.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 18:43:01 Utkarsh [~quassel@li118-209.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:07 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@c83-248-140-186.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - 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Perhaps as a way to check if a symbol exists in a package? 19:55:41 That is the only use case I can think of. 19:56:22 If you didn't have FIND-SYMBOL, there would be no way to tell if a string names a symbol in a package. 19:57:17 Qworkescence: imagine if you were making an instance of a class, and the class name was passed as user input. you could restrict the result to only predefined class names by using find-symbol instead of "blindly" interning. 19:57:21 <|3b|> useful when you want to convert strings to symbols, but don't want to accumulate garbage symbols 19:57:34 wouldn't that also be the case if a symbol was equal to nil? 19:58:11 i mean, for the presence of strings-names-symbols 19:58:13 a symbol isn't equal to something 19:58:14 not for the other two 19:58:24 a symbol is a thing 19:58:38 anvandare: the secondary value is useful for that. 19:58:38 hmm 19:59:01 oGMo: a symbol can be equal to something (itself). 19:59:35 Xach: even that really requires a context 19:59:56 ehu [~erik@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:00:20 situ [~quassel@223.191.94.240] has joined #lisp 20:01:18 or is this a pun on equal ;) 20:02:43 I was thinking of (equal symbol nil) being a useful thing 20:02:52 hrm 20:06:21 -!- ehu [~erik@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:06:24 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:07:22 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:09:44 coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:44 -!- coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-238-90.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:09:44 coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 20:10:22 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:10:22 Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:29 -!- coyo is now known as coio 20:12:04 -!- coio is now known as alyks 20:12:27 -!- alyks is now known as alyksmaryn 20:13:06 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c17cf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:21 nikodemus_: it was the oom killer 20:16:09 prxq: issues on cl-net? 20:18:17 hi ehu! 20:18:41 Xach: hi! 20:18:46 nikodemus_: do you believe that the failure you saw was darwin specific (i.e. if you stress the linux version, do you see similar problems?)? 20:18:55 any cl-jpeg users around? 20:19:06 ehu: I wrote another top-downloads post 20:20:38 Xach: great! Thanks. unfortunately, the projects that don't work with ABCL keep growing to the top of that list :-/ 20:20:45 ehu: no, issues with some code I and a student developed. 20:20:57 does mcclim work with ABCL yet? 20:21:43 beslyrus: mcclim is an amop dependent library? 20:21:49 beslyrus: then, no. 20:22:12 *ehu* hasn't actually tested 20:23:38 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:03 *j_king* didn't realize doug hoyte went to toronto lisp group 20:24:51 i'd be worried about being too much of a fan. 20:25:20 Easy to fix by learning more about CL. 20:28:54 j_king: do you go to the toronto lisp meetup? 20:29:25 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-127.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 20:29:41 -!- alyksmaryn is now known as gidva 20:30:08 -!- joseph_ [~duomo@cpe-69-204-168-98.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:33:35 Xach: nice list of updated projects this month again. 20:35:06 -!- ThomasH [4b1349ad@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:35:13 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:35:46 -!- situ [~quassel@223.191.94.240] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:39 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-127.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:36:59 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:37:04 -!- _mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:37:08 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 20:38:32 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-20-255.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:38:45 drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:02 DamienCassou [~cassou@fibz10.fh-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 20:39:05 hi 20:39:22 is there a way to change the return value of a method from a :after method? 20:39:37 or is it only possible with :around methods? 20:39:40 DamienCassou: no. you can change it via :around. 20:39:50 Xach: thanks 20:41:24 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-122-15.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:41:38 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:42:55 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:43:30 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 20:43:34 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-49-14-228.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:51 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 20:44:53 -!- slyrus changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.54, Hunchentoot 1.2.2, CMUCL 20c, ABCL 1.0.0, R.I.P John McCarthy, ECLM videos at http://blip.tv/eclm 20:44:59 _mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 20:45:12 Xach: how about adding a "quickload" restart to the asdf:load-system in quicklisp ? it would be pretty convenient 20:47:17 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-127.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 20:48:21 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:48:53 fe[nl]ix: I don't quite understand. What is the usage scenario for that? 20:51:27 I download a project from its VCS and some of its deps are missing, so I just asdf:load-system it, then keep pressing 0(topmost restart) in slime until it finished compiling 20:52:05 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 20:52:44 Why do you use asdf:load-system instead of ql:quickload? 20:52:47 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.95] has quit [Quit: Offline] 20:53:36 hmm, does ql:quickload already do that ? 20:54:13 It's what I use for local system loading these days. 20:54:42 ok, I'll change slime's ,l to use ql:quickload 20:55:01 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 20:56:06 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:56:39 fe[nl]ix: were you suggesting I change quicklisp's asdf.lisp? 21:00:14 -!- Cristi_ [~quassel@94.177.108.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:00:47 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.6] has joined #lisp 21:03:26 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@64.134.242.180] has joined #lisp 21:05:51 Xach: yes 21:06:15 ThomasH [4b1349ad@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 21:06:33 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:53 Ah, I don't think that is practical even if quickload did not do approximately what you need already. 21:07:36 Xach: I'm finally getting around to using quicklisp. I'm working on integrating it with the LispWorks System Browser. I worked through the ASDF example this morning and ASDF is now integrated. Encountered an issue with Quicklisp, though. 21:07:52 -!- _mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:07:59 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:08:18 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:08:20 Oh? 21:08:43 Xach: Using quicklisp with LispWorks on windows, quicklisp-quickstart:install :path *my-path* does not respect *my-path*, it always installs it in (user-homedir-pathname). 21:09:13 ThomasH: I suggested that to one of that LW devs at the ECLM and he said it might be in the next release 21:09:15 Xach: I double-checked *my-path* with PROBE-FILE, it is there. 21:09:24 ThomasH: Hmm! 21:09:33 fe[nl]ix: I can't wait for them, I want it now. ;-) 21:09:40 good :) 21:10:16 ThomasH: Can you open an issue on quicklisp-bootstrap on github? I'd like to check it out, but I'm waiting for my LW licenses to arrive. 21:10:16 fe[nl]ix: Besides, their ASDF integration is the bare minimum, long term I'm wanting something comprehensive. 21:10:47 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:11:36 Xach: Sure. 21:12:05 Xach: Can I use it based on a git checkout of quicklisp-bootstrap and quicklisp-client? 21:12:43 I wouldn't usually recommend that, unless you are hacking on them. 21:13:58 Xach: Ok, if I'm hacking the integration routines for LispWorks, would it be better to work from a normal install or the repos? 21:14:39 Intemawhat? 21:14:43 -!- DamienCassou [~cassou@fibz10.fh-potsdam.de] has left #lisp 21:14:59 How would that involve modficiations to Quicklisp? 21:15:40 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@78-23-215-162.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:15:51 Perhaps it won't, but things never seem to work that way. 21:16:00 zmv [~zmv@186.204.122.203] has joined #lisp 21:16:29 Well, if you are indeed hacking such things, the git checkout is a good place to start. You can do a normal bootstrap and then replace /quicklisp with a checkout of quicklisp-client 21:16:39 lghtng` [~user@c-71-193-21-240.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:47 where is the install directory, normally ~/quicklisp/ 21:17:47 Fade: I used to go. My name is on some of the early 2009 minutes (and missing from some others.. I'm quiet..) 21:18:07 -!- lghtng [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/lghtng] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:18:14 Xach: Alright. I'll start from the normal bootstrap and hopefully won't need to look at any repos. 21:18:26 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 21:19:23 i was a lisp newb at the time and was interested in practical discussions and examples of code. i don't remember getting much of that at the meetups I did go to. 21:20:14 Did they sit around talking about how awesome it would be to get a Genera emulator? 21:20:56 ...singing epic songs about those beasts? 21:21:01 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-235-251.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:21:59 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-233-83.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:09 "car car, cadddr, and a fmakunbound!" 21:23:02 Xach: not really. i remember there being a presentation on factor, some regurgitated clojure tutorials, and a bare-bones s-exp reader in perl. 21:23:25 talks about esoteric stuff that wasn't code... 21:23:47 well, boo to that. 21:24:09 http://www.lisptoronto.org/past-meetings/2009-02-factor-presentation 21:24:19 -!- markettaskilbeck is now known as markskilbeck 21:24:20 http://www.lisptoronto.org/past-meetings/2009-03-clojure-meeting 21:24:47 i think the march one was the last one I was at 21:25:23 i had gone for about 4 months or so prior to when we started taking minutes and put up lisptoronto.com 21:25:29 er .org 21:26:24 senj [~senj@S01060026f323bcdf.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:35 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.111.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:27:37 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:28:50 co-worker said I could write in lisp if i wanted... can't tell if he was serious. 21:30:45 well, there's an easy way to find out. :) 21:31:02 does anyone here know what happened to boston LISP meetups? 21:31:15 do you measure a positive response to a finished product in teeth gnashed? (: 21:32:56 sipo: I think when ITA got bought, a lot of the organisers became busy with other things. 21:33:21 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-214-130.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:02 anvandare [~anvandare@78-23-239-154.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 21:35:54 Xach: Before I opened an issue, I double checked what was going on and I don't think it is a problem with quicklisp -> http://paste.lisp.org/+2PHB 21:36:07 Xach: yay, it was pretty easy 21:36:46 If I wanted to store a simple graph of objects to disk without necessarily having to write the the whole graph out all the time, what's the best library that I can use in SBCL? 21:37:09 Xach: I had left the trailing slash off of the directory name in MERGE-PATHNAMES, but PROBE-FILE reported it as present which confused me. 21:37:16 Elephant? Rucksack? Something else? 21:38:01 djuber [~djuber@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:19 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 21:39:20 I think I actually want something like CouchDB but I'd rather not have to screw around with installing CouchDB. 21:39:28 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:44:35 nik_ [~Nikolai@li335-20.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:44:58 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.96] has joined #lisp 21:45:09 -!- nik_ [~Nikolai@li335-20.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:45:30 couch is pretty easy to install on any dpkg based distribution. 21:45:32 xiaonuo-nik [~Nikolai@li335-20.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:42 if you're using osx or windows, that's probably a reasonable stance. :) 21:45:43 -!- xiaonuo-nik [~Nikolai@li335-20.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:46:40 -!- rgrinberg [~rudi@24.52.246.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:46:47 Erlang provides rather interesting deployment support 21:47:47 ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 21:47:49 there's also vivace-graph, although i dunno if that's a perfect fit for your situation. 21:48:13 resu [~resu@97.72.154.166] has joined #lisp 21:48:13 https://github.com/kraison/vivace-graph-v2 21:48:55 oooh, that's still being developed (: 21:49:06 it seems to be 21:49:08 I saw a few commits back in feb, but then there was nothing for a long time. 21:49:09 Fade: yeah, osx 21:49:24 commits in september this year. 21:49:32 Fade: yeah, I saw 21:49:33 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:33 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:49:33 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 21:49:34 pretty cool 21:49:52 Hmmm. How about an open source version of something like Allegro Cache? 21:50:02 elephant? 21:50:06 I guess franz uses allegrograph as a feature attractor, but it'd be a nice piece to release. 21:50:24 no kidding (: 21:52:32 hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD72D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:39 -!- gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:222:41ff:fe23:8d8e] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:53:56 couchdb seems to be rather lightly structured 21:54:08 it's pretty simple. 21:54:15 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.40.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:54:19 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-402935.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:54:30 not that i've done any huge systems with it, but when I was looking at alternative data stores, it was the easiest to set up. 21:55:38 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:50 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 21:55:50 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:15 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-233-83.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:56:46 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-105-3.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:57:04 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-237-64.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:35 mongo looks promising. 21:58:16 it's rather interesting that so much software runs on javascript. 21:58:21 couch is interesting for the distributed-systems aspect 21:59:07 well, it comes closest to the description of the linda tuple-store galernter described in mirror worlds. 21:59:21 when I did jofr.li and didn't want to bother setting up a real database, I found redis pretty easy 21:59:48 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.6] has quit [Quit: Offline] 22:01:36 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:04:00 WTF, I can't (ql:quickload "drakma") 22:04:00 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:04:07 Error about "Class not yet defined: CL+SSL::SSL-ERROR" 22:04:11 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:04:20 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:05:22 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.96] has joined #lisp 22:05:27 nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-206-250.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 22:06:57 gigamonkey: check for some cl+ssl instance outside quicklisp 22:08:38 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 22:11:16 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:13:06 gigamonkey: no problem here quickloading drakma 22:13:42 Xach updated ql a few days ago 22:13:56 Xach: The ASDF cache location has changed on Windows between the version in Quicklisp(2.014.6) and the latest in Git. 22:14:31 Yeah, wiping ~/.cache/common-lisp/ cleared things up. 22:15:45 Ok, I think I'm going to load ASDF myself rather than relying on QL. 22:16:52 gigamonkey: installing couchdb shouldn't be too hard. sykopomp uses it, he'll likely be able to tell you more 22:18:05 So how the heck are you supposed to find out the character encoding on an XML document if it's specified inside the XML document. 22:18:06 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 22:18:17 kpreid [~kpreid@Riley14.price.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 22:18:43 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-123267BA.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 22:19:31 gigamonkey: doesn't the header have a special encoding? 22:19:49 csdserver [~csdserver@76.177.111.55] has joined #lisp 22:19:50 *ThomasH* is trying to figure out how to fit quicklisp into his workflow. 22:20:00 gigamonkey: Open it as ASCII or UTF8, read enough to find out the character encoding, then open again with the proper encoding? 22:20:01 ThomasH: how is that? 22:20:03 -!- csdserver [~csdserver@76.177.111.55] has quit [Changing host] 22:20:03 csdserver [~csdserver@unaffiliated/csddesk] has joined #lisp 22:20:17 ThomasH: there isn't that much to it. 22:20:18 jacius: yeah, I think that's the stupid thing one is supposed to do. 22:20:47 gigamonkey: I thought the "first part" had ascii as default encoding anyway 22:20:47 prxq: Some things I want to manage with quicklisp, some things I don't. 22:21:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:21:12 ThomasH: I use ql for libs i did not devel myself, and the rest as before. 22:21:27 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-127.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:21:29 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-146.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:22:16 ThomasH: I do the same as prxq. Quicklisp defers to the normal ASDF search mechanisms. 22:22:19 some_temp_usr [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 22:22:36 So even if you have your own libs locally that are also included in Quicklisp, you'll get your own version. 22:22:49 ThomasH: quicklisp uses asdf, so you can set up an asdf search path to your own ~/code/ path, and projects in there will automatically override ql requirements. 22:24:12 Or if you use the whizzy new ASDF2 configuration thing in ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf that'll also take predecence. 22:24:16 Yeah, I got all that. 22:24:21 Hey guys, I'm writing a recursive function traversing a tree and there're some bugs that I can't solve, feels pretty awkward to ask for help on here but could you take a look? I've traced the function and everything but I just can't see what's wrong. 22:24:36 some_temp_usr: homework? 22:24:55 prxq: Nope, just me being stupid. I don't really know what's better. 22:25:01 :-) 22:25:16 so where's the code? 22:25:55 some_temp_usr: http://paste.lisp.org please 22:25:59 http://paste.lisp.org/+2PHD <-- The point is to extract the CDR of (:MODHASH . "ubc32mtynk6a7437f5f424f7ce82f5d8b02e3620a6e04d6da6") 22:29:02 well, you can check every cons first for whether the car is :modhash, and return the cdr in that case. Otherwise (or (get-modhash (car ..)) (get-modhash (cdr ...))) 22:29:14 plus the default case, when its not a cons. 22:30:07 I think your solution is more complicated than it needs to be, thus masking what does not work. 22:30:46 Mhm. I'm just gonna sit here and try to think about that. And yeah, I should probably just have left the computer for half an hour and stop thinking about it and then just rewrite it 22:31:37 But thanks! Awesome, I really appreciate your help! 22:32:14 kwertii [~kwertii@unaffiliated/kwertii] has joined #lisp 22:35:08 -!- Nauntilus [~Benji@wsip-68-14-222-194.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:40:35 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:40:59 some_temp_usr: if you're using jsown, you can use the provided accessors, i think 22:41:06 jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:47 hey guys, I have an sbcl encoding question. 22:42:03 I figured out most of my db/sbcl/browser encoding issues. 22:42:08 -!- akovalenko [~akovalenk@95.73.48.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:42:30 I have one left. I have a script that runs detachtty and sbcl as a 'hunchentoot' user. 22:42:56 -!- gensym` [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:43:10 Though (sb-impl::default-external-encoding) returns UTF-8, I still get encoding errors. 22:43:34 What else can I check? 22:43:41 some_temp_usr: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126337#1 22:45:27 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-49-14-228.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:45:52 -!- osa1 [~sinan@141.196.171.140] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:33 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.96] has joined #lisp 22:46:37 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@64.134.242.180] has quit [Quit: RomyEatsDrupal] 22:47:17 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:34 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c17cf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:47:49 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 22:48:07 hi. i've installed SBCL from source on a 64 bit Linux Mint 12 fresh install. but i can't get it to run, either from bash or from slime: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126339 22:48:17 akovalenko [~akovalenk@95.72.42.228] has joined #lisp 22:48:19 -!- Borbus [borbus@85.17.58.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:48:51 Borbus [borbus@85.17.58.106] has joined #lisp 22:49:06 i wonder what im doing wrong? hmm 22:49:11 hi dto 22:49:33 dto: sounds like it is not fully installed 22:51:06 dto: does linux mint install have asdf-related packages? maybe it is tweaking your config. 22:51:26 hmm. 22:51:44 mint is ubuntu based? 22:51:52 i think the regular clc lossage applies there. 22:51:58 -!- vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtechnology.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:52:11 Fade: it wasn't a problem on either ubuntu or the linux mint 11 i just switched from. i'll check synaptic for packages now 22:52:35 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:52:35 vpit3833 [~user@mail.protocomtechnology.com] has joined #lisp 22:52:58 lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:18 ah, 22:54:43 ok, now sbcl starts without incident from Bash, but won't load quicklisp.lisp with a similar error 22:54:56 even though i installed common-lisp-controller and cl-asdf 22:55:09 dto: That is a good way to increase problems, not reduce them. 22:55:11 does it matter that i installed my compiled sbcl as /usr/local/bin/sbcl 22:55:22 nonetheless it is how i've always done it on my various machines. 22:55:22 that's how I run my ubuntu system. 22:55:29 with a self-compiled sbcl in /usr/local/bin 22:55:54 try purging the packaged lisp environment? 22:55:56 Xach: ok, i can uninstall those both 22:56:12 Fade: can you explain more? do you mean all the clc and cl-foo packages? 22:56:18 yeah 22:56:32 ok. 22:56:40 btw I have a kickass new screen xach. i'll tell you in a sec. 22:57:08 should i uninstall the distro sbcl now that i'm done compiling sbcl? 22:57:17 Yes. 22:58:13 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:58:33 ok, done. 22:58:57 -!- antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-nfoebqwgonmoohyz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:59:39 same thing. 22:59:53 same error, Dont know how to require BSD-SOCKETS 23:00:04 is there an issue with this being 64 buit 23:00:05 bit 23:00:35 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.96] has joined #lisp 23:00:50 file `which sbcl` 23:00:58 Fade: when you say purge, is "mark for complete removal" and then "apply" in synaptic, enougyh? 23:00:59 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:01:13 /usr/local/bin/sbcl: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, not stripped 23:01:17 I tend to do 'aptitude purge ...' 23:01:42 which should remove all configuration residue with the packages. 23:01:58 -!- jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:02:00 it wants to remove realpath and a bunch of libmono stuff 23:02:09 bear in mind that i've never used mint. this is just general debian-centric advice. 23:02:22 ok. 23:02:23 do you use mono? 23:02:39 nope. although maybe it's involved in some package i installed. 23:02:52 dto: download sbcl from sourceforge and run that. there's a script named run-sbcl.sh inside that takes care of setting up everything 23:02:59 that's possible. it has been tainting a lot of the *buntu world for some time. 23:03:45 fe[nl]ix: why should i back out of compiling from source? 23:03:48 perhaps your startup files are no longer accurate? 23:03:50 oh, maybe HEAD is messed up 23:03:55 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:03:58 i removed my .sbcl and .sbclrc 23:04:23 fe[nl]ix: can i install it to /usr/local/bin using that download? 23:05:00 it seems to me that this is probably some environmental lossage. 23:05:16 are there any clc configuration files left in /etc? 23:05:16 Xach: i got a http://us.playstation.com/ps3/accessories/sony-playstation-3d-display-ps3/index.html 23:05:24 try restarting your login shell 23:05:44 dto: or try setting SBCL_HOME to /usr/local/lib/sbcl or wherever it's installed 23:05:47 yeah theres /etc/common-lisp and a few files. shouuld i blitz that? 23:05:58 they shouldn't be needed any more. 23:06:23 dto: it's just easier to use the pre-compiled binary 23:06:33 fe[nl]ix: 23:06:34 ok :) 23:06:54 brb. 23:07:04 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:07:27 Xach: If a system is loaded from outside Quicklisp, it doesn't show up in the list from ql-dist:all-dists, correct? 23:07:54 ThomasH: it doesn't. 23:07:55 Xach: What I mean is that I used Quicklisp to load it, but it was a repository outside of Quicklisp. 23:08:00 ThomasH: that's right. 23:08:14 ThomasH: in that sense, quicklisp is a thin layer on top of asdf 23:08:27 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08:47 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:03 Xach: Ok, so I'm thinking for integration with the LispWorks system browser, I need to *not* integrate ASDF, but integrate Quicklisp and also pull data from ASDF. 23:09:25 What is a system browser? 23:10:37 Kryztof [~user@77-58-246-74.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:11:14 -!- Cryotank2011 [~Cryotank2@c-24-17-62-152.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Cryotank2011] 23:11:22 Xach: behaves totally the same. i'll try the precompiled binary i guess. 23:11:27 Xach: It is a GUI that uses information from a "Source Code Manager" like ASDF or Quicklisp to enable you search for systems, load/compile them, open files, see dependencies. Basically just a GUI to things like ASDF/Quicklisp. 23:11:32 or can i just manually load asdf to get quicklisp installed?? 23:11:42 sorry the double ?? was accidental. 23:12:26 ThomasH: ah. well, asdf has a system search mechanism that, in the most primitive sense, makes it hard to do that. 23:12:46 ThomasH: you can special-case some stuff, though, I think. and i think i can make it easier to find quicklisp-related systems. 23:13:09 ThomasH: but at the heart of system finding is a list of one-way functions that can tell you if a given string names a system, but not a list of all strings that name systems. 23:13:14 Xach: i'm using that screen i linked as my pc screen right now, plus also it works in 3d on the ps3 23:13:29 dto: i wish i knew some ansi escape codes that could blow your mind 23:13:49 Xach: LispWorks has an example implementation for ASDF, I worked through that today, got it running to make sure I understand what is going on. Now just trying to adapt it to quicklisp. 23:14:05 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:14:11 ThomasH: how does the lispworks one enumerate loadable systems? 23:14:47 Xach: Uses asdf:find-system 23:15:17 -!- lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:16:07 That doesn't enumerate, though. 23:16:26 Xach: Oh, yeah, you still have to know the name. 23:16:54 Xach: It doesn't list systems unless they've been defined. 23:17:27 Where does browsing come in? 23:19:15 Once a system is defined, there is an ASDF namespace on the systems tree, you can expand a system, shows the files, by module if organized that way. Then you can open the file by selecting it. 23:20:06 -!- waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has left #lisp 23:20:14 Ah, so part of the browser is entering some system name up front? 23:20:34 asdf:map-systems would come in handy for that 23:20:42 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.102] has joined #lisp 23:20:43 enumerating loaded systems, that is 23:20:44 Xach: Yeah, but you could as easily populate it just by loading just the system definitions. 23:20:58 Without actually loading the systems. 23:21:05 ThomasH: how do you find the system definitions? 23:21:22 Xach: i dont get what you mean about ansi codes 23:21:42 dto: You don't seem to be all here 23:21:43 i used to have many memorized for the graphics capabilities of the VT220 23:22:06 Also, loading system definitions can be hairy; sometimes they load long chains of other systems at system-definition time 23:23:27 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:51 Xach: I imagine the same way that ASDF searches, but use a "*.asd" wild pathname. If you're just wanting to populate that tree with everything that is found, it might be okay if it loads the chains of other systems. 23:24:31 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:24:33 ThomasH: I think your imagination does not mesh well with how asdf actually does system searches. 23:24:59 Xach: There are a lot of interactions between the browser and the "Source Code Manager" that I don't fully understand, I just started connecting the dots today, so not too many are connected. 23:26:08 dto: weren't you dead or something? :P 23:27:33 ThomasH: in a nutshell, asdf has a list, asdf:*system-definition-search-functions*. each element in that list is called with one argument, the system name, and they can do whatever they want to find a pathname for that name. when they do, that is treated as the system file to load. they could look up in a hash table, or connect to a database, or whatever. 23:28:35 That is pretty great for Quicklisp because it's an important and useful low-level hook 23:28:59 Xach: Yes, I've vaguely aware of that, it was actually screwed on Windows some time ago, that's why I had my own little hacked version. 23:29:08 *I was* 23:29:19 It seems to work ok now. 23:29:33 But that does mean that there isn't a single way to know what strings can be passed to those functions to get a result 23:29:58 There isn't a parallel *available-systems-enumeration-functions* or anything. 23:30:02 that would be pretty handy! 23:30:12 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:17 zmv: no. Xach: was mentioning my screen somehow a problem 23:30:36 Xach: Hmmm. I notice you put local-projects-searcher ahead of the standard ASDF searchers. I assume that was on purpose? 23:31:01 gigamonkey: i did, and then changed it 23:31:28 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD72D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:31:39 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:47 Do I need to update the QL client then? 23:31:55 I thought I was up to date. 23:31:59 dto: "dead" as in "internet dead" 23:32:01 I think you might. 23:32:19 Apparently so. Wheeee! 23:33:09 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-82.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 23:34:29 zmv: except for my main project, i have a github and website for that. 23:34:30 Xach: When I use (provided-systems t), I get 1,625 systems. Not sure I want the tree to show all of those by default. The system browser also manages the compiling/loading and provides tools for managing the process. I don't have everything working, though. 23:34:38 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 23:35:11 Xach: I think it would be best just list the systems return from a call to something like (ql:system-apropos ...) 23:35:42 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:44 Xach: I wonder if it would be more tidy to bind asdf:*central-registry* while you load quicklisp in setup.lisp rather than pushing the quicklisp dir onto it. 23:38:01 As in this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126340 23:38:30 Not that it probably really matters. 23:40:57 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-35.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 23:44:56 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@Riley14.price.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 23:45:58 ThomasH: system-apropos uses provided-systems t underneath 23:46:01 gigamonkey: maybe 23:48:22 Xach: Looking at that now, thanks. 23:49:19 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-82.dyn.columbia.edu] has left #lisp 23:51:06 Xach: This is the documentation on the System Browser -> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw60/IDE-W/html/ide-w-523.htm 23:51:32 Xach: I need to read through that in a little more detail to figure out how to get things integrated. 23:51:45 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-206-250.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:52:06 jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:32 Problem *solved* !! 23:52:41 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:53:06 I have one more bit of homework to do on pathnames, and we're good to go. 23:53:13 Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has joined #lisp 23:53:55 ThomasH: I'll look into adding a warning or something when it comes to a lack of trailing slashes 23:54:14 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h153n1c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: add^_] 23:55:11 Xach: thanks again for your amazing work on QL. 23:55:56 No problem. Sorry it's taken a while to get things working again. 23:56:22 I'm not even talking about 'working again'. ;-) 23:56:34 I'm just saying 'great job'. Period. 23:57:46 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:17 seriously now, why did dto disappear?