00:00:15 <evenson> I published the placeholder template, and then got distracted with actually getting the code working a bit better.
00:00:21 <evenson> And Thanksgiving.
00:03:31 <Xach> No problem. I meant to ding you earlier, but the same distractions cropped up.
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00:05:03 <evenson> How do you get Planet Lisp to rescrape the source?  Like every hour or so?
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00:08:32 <evenson> The funny thing about that post was that the README.markdown was really the meat of the post.  But abcl-dev is hosted on the ever-so-gently rusting blogger.com.
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00:10:12 <Xach> it's usually every few hours. i'll push it to check now.
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01:26:56 <madnificent> on the topic of ContextL, i'm still looking for good examples of it.  i found LoL, but it's not really explicit about its use of ContextL.  everything is wrapped in macros, or so it seems.
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01:35:01 <j_king> anyone having trouble loading caveman with quicklisp? having trouble loading one of its dependencies, "cl-syntax-annot" (bleeding-edge sbcl on arch linux)
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01:37:27 <Xach> What trouble?
01:37:53 <j_king> can't seem to find the package. "The name "CL-SYNTAX-ANNOT" does not designate any package."
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01:40:50 <Xach> hmm.
01:43:08 <Xach> j_king: i'm afraid i can't reproduce.
01:43:54 *akovalenko* can't reproduce it too
01:44:42 <j_king> k, thanks. it's probably my system then somehow.
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01:45:18 <akovalenko> I would suspect some system-wide package interference, making it to load some wrong version of some intermediate dependency
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01:45:51 <akovalenko> of course, it normally happens on debian, but possible anywhere :)
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01:46:19 <j_king> akovalenko: I would be surprised if that were the case, but it very well might be. Arch doesn't really package lisp libs afaik
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02:04:12 <Vivitron> j_king: I think the most likely interference would be from packages outside of ql seen by asdf, which are quickloaded in preference to ql packages, possibly combined with a not updated quicklisp installation. Loading caveman on arch/(sbcl from source a few months stale) works for me.
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02:08:07 <Vivitron> you might try (ql:where-is-system "cl-syntax")
02:08:29 <j_king> Vivitron: thanks.
02:09:45 <j_king> ql thinks my cl-syntax is in my quicklisp path. i'll have to search through my asdf paths and see if there's rogue packages somewhere.
02:10:06 <j_king> (that was great english.. ugh).
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02:11:55 <kelevra> hello everyone!
02:12:08 <Vivitron> and it is the november release in your path? good luck
02:12:47 <nitro_idiot> I think your Caveman is old
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02:15:13 <nitro_idiot> a package "cl-syntax-annot" isn't in the latest cl-syntax anymore, and it seems your caveman expects older cl-syntax
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02:18:54 <j_king> quicklisp thinks everything is up to date. not really finding a rogue cl-sytax anywhere.
02:19:05 <Xach> j_king: (ql:where-is-system "caveman")?
02:19:21 <Xach> nitro_idiot is something of an authority, also.
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02:20:49 <j_king> Xach: that's the very next thing i did. turns out i have an old source checkout of it in my project path. derp.
02:21:00 *j_king* slaps forehead. 
02:21:03 <j_king> forgot about that.
02:21:29 *Xach* must make it easier to troubleshoot such things
02:22:05 <j_king> Xach: dunno... kind of a pebkac
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02:22:19 <j_king> er pebcak
02:22:47 <Xach> still, the faster i can point and laugh, the better
02:24:27 <Xach> i mean, identify the issue
02:26:34 <j_king> of course. pointing and laughing would be mean and ostracizing.
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03:08:54 <fisxoj> anyone know why clsql is accusing me of using invalid sql syntax?
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03:22:22 <pnathan> fisxoj: dispatch a pastie link?
03:23:41 <fisxoj> pnathan, good idea, maybe in a minute.  It worked when I copy-pasted the command clsql came up with into a simple command to mysql
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05:09:31 <chenbing> hi lispers
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05:13:04 <Shaftoe> hello chenbing
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05:13:56 <samebchase> hi chenbing
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05:20:11 <fisxoj> ok, I can't run this example for clsql's create-view-from-class http://clsql.b9.com/manual/create-view-from-class.html
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05:20:53 <fisxoj> it fails on the call to create-view-from-class, and my uneducated guess is the Type=InnoDB tacked onto the end of the command string
05:21:06 <fisxoj> does someone else have experience with clsql?
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05:28:32 <beslyrus2> evening
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05:35:49 <fisxoj> beslyrus, evening it is!
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05:49:45 <Shaftoe> ahh. migrated from s-xml to cxml in less than a day. I consider that a resounding success.
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07:14:36 <chenbing> sure,:-)
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08:18:48 <eMBee> good afternoon
08:19:49 <eMBee> does anyone have a suggestion how to make this code look nicer? http://paste.lisp.org/display/126150
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08:25:30 <H4ns> eMBee: that code is unreadable.  hard to suggest how to make it nicer.  maybe you'd like to add a comment what it is supposed to do?
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08:26:02 <H4ns> eMBee: also, do not mix format nil and concatenate 'string.  settle for one.  why do you compare full pathnames?  seems like you want to compare just file names.
08:26:50 <H4ns> eMBee: don't use ignore-errors.  consider the junk-allowed argument to parse-integer.
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08:34:33 <eMBee> junk-allowed makes "1abc" successful, but i want that to be an error
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08:35:32 <eMBee> the full pathname is needed to find the right directory
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08:39:26 <eMBee> added a description.
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08:39:58 <eMBee> http://paste.lisp.org/display/126150#1
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08:49:24 <eMBee> and, yes, it's hard to read, so the first question is how to change the layout, where to add linebreaks to make it readable? the indenting is by vim
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08:54:29 <`micro> it doens't all have to be in one function.
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08:54:48 <eMBee> true
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08:56:31 <|3b|> (+ 1 ...) -> (1+ ...), and use some temporary variables instead of doing everything inline
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09:03:03 <eMBee> how is this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/126150#2
09:03:22 <|3b|> probably also (position #\, ...) instead of (search "," ...) unless you expect to be changing to a multicharacter separator at some point
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09:05:01 <H4ns> eMBee: why do you sort the list of files if all you're interested in is the maximum number?  a simple dolist/loop/map would be less wasteful and clearer, too.
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09:05:27 <_3b> might also consider renaming DIRECTORY arg to *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS* so you don't have to pass it to everything
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09:05:41 <_3b> (and so you don't forget to pass it to enough-namestring like you seem to do currently)
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09:08:01 <eMBee> no, DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS is not what i want here, what i am actually passing in as directory is the result of (probe-file basename)
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09:08:17 <eMBee> but i want to keep the function generic to work on any directory
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09:09:15 <_3b> from what i can see, you mostly pass it as an optional argument that would default to *d-p-d*, so just binding that would have the same effect
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09:09:33 <eMBee> ah
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09:10:58 <eMBee> so if i pass something it will replace the value of *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS*, and then i could make the argument optional
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09:13:27 <eMBee> or can i? not sure about the optional here
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09:13:51 <_3b> you could, just have it default to the existing value
09:14:14 <eMBee> ok
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09:15:48 *_3b* isn't sure if it is better to actually name the argument *d-p-d* or name it directory and bind *d-p-d* in the function
09:15:54 <eMBee> the enough-namestring here is used to get the string back so i can append the *,because i can't figure out how to tell make-pathname to make a wildcard pathname like that. (it is either :name :wild or :type :wild, but i need something like name*
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09:16:50 <eMBee> i'd prefer the latter. it's more visible
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09:17:24 *_3b* tries to avoid complicated pathname/namestring manipulation, so can't help much there :p
09:18:04 <eMBee> that's ok, i am mostly concerend about making the code readable as it is.
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09:21:37 <eMBee> what i said is nonsense though, the enough-namestring is there so the nakes can be sorted
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09:21:42 <eMBee> the names
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09:23:57 <akovalenko> nikodemus: just what you slimers have against emacsen's truncate-lines in SLDB window? How is manual string truncation better at all?
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09:24:42 *akovalenko* appreciates a good hack, but still sees no reason why it could be useful..
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09:28:57 <_3b> akovalenko: without knowing context, i'd guess stuff like #999999*0
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09:29:44 <akovalenko> _3b: it's just about string values in SLDB, truncated to 75 characters currently. nikodemus posted some code to use actual window width instead..
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09:30:47 <eMBee> file-namestring is better than enough-namestring in my case
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09:30:59 <_3b> similar problem with strings, since they also ignore *print-length*
09:31:10 <akovalenko> *or maybe all values, really. The argument about leaving most of it to emacs, while limiting width to something like 4096 width in the code, still stands
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09:32:34 <akovalenko> _3b: I'm not opposed to some arbitrary limit for preventing high loads and/or crashes in emacs and/or slime. My point is that it's not needed for "beautifying" the output
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09:34:09 <nikodemus> akovalenko: i have nothing against it personally. i'm just trying to play nice with helmut
09:34:35 <nikodemus> akovalenko: though /some/ truncation is needed at the lisp -> slime level, and IMO actually more than currently is
09:35:05 <akovalenko> maybe it's more, but not as it "60 chars instead of 75", probably
09:35:15 <nikodemus> no, and not for frame locals
09:35:17 <akovalenko> *as in
09:35:21 <nikodemus> but for frames themselves
09:35:39 <nikodemus> because sometimes i get to wait for tens of seconds while a backtrace is sent from lisp to emacs, even though the part i view of it is only a minuscule portion
09:36:51 *akovalenko* is going to hack up something for editing a string literal in emacs buffer, with no escaping (so buffer contents /is/ the string)
09:37:20 <nikodemus> part of it is probably due to some local hacks i at some point made to make sure backtraces are complete, though
09:37:37 <nikodemus> but i'm pretty sure i've experienced it on vanilla slime too
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09:40:02 <pinterface> eMBee: I'd probably do that more along the lines of annotation 3.  Though I changed the function signature, so it might be disqualified. :)
09:44:24 <_3b> you probably don't want the ignore-errors with it split up like that, just check arguments directly instead and/or use :junk-allowed
09:45:23 <Kryztof> swankr causes long waits if a frame has an object that's complicated to print
09:45:34 <Kryztof> at the "Lisp" -> emacs communication level
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09:53:38 <eMBee> pinterface: looks good. the signature of get-next-version can be changed back without changing your code, so that's fine
09:55:03 <eMBee> but maybe i don't need that, hmm
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09:58:49 <eMBee> yeah, i can just get (namestring pathname) before appending *
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10:02:21 <pinterface> It may not come up in practice, but you might want to consider what happens with a set of files like "red,1" "red,2" "redfish,10" if you're calling with basename as "red".
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10:04:40 <eMBee> oh, good point
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10:47:26 <mvilleneuve> good morning
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10:49:21 <homie> morning
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11:19:14 *nikodemus* runs his microbenchmarks on ccl
11:19:22 <nikodemus> results are curious
11:20:51 <theos> morning
11:21:18 <luis> nikodemus: how so?
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11:29:00 <nikodemus> looks like calling a gf with a single unspecialized method (single arg) is /faster/ than calling a regular function
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11:29:16 <nikodemus> possibly my results are bogus
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11:32:07 <nikodemus> it also turns out that my test-case for double-addition where the result is compared to 0.0d0 instead of returning the resulting double appears to produce rather pessimal code on sbcl
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11:46:02 <eMBee> pinterface: this version handles the basename correctly: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126150#4
11:47:11 <eMBee> but i had to pull the separate function because the generic way to search for the , needed to be replaced with something more specific
11:48:06 <eMBee> it needs a closure over the basename
11:48:43 <luis> nikodemus: maybe you need to measure HW events to help you understand what's going on. ;-)
11:49:20 <eMBee> this function also handles multiple , in the filename correctly
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11:52:08 <nikodemus> luis: sb-sprof disassembly annotation helps quite a bit as well
11:52:41 <nikodemus> so far i've been able to make it 10% faster by using PXOR instead of XORPD to zero the register...
11:52:55 <nikodemus> well, maybe more like 8%, but sill
11:53:03 <nikodemus> still, even
11:53:41 <pkhuong> nikodemus: eh? can you xorps and see if it makes a difference?
11:54:01 <pkhuong> Is it an EQL or = test?
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11:54:22 <nikodemus> =
11:55:31 <nikodemus> http://paste.lisp.org/display/126154, code is (= 0.0d0 (+ x y))
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11:56:37 <pkhuong> The samples aren't enough to convince me that xorpd is to blame.
11:57:21 <JuanDaugherty> so "pessimal" is now the opposite of "optimal"?
11:58:52 <nikodemus> ...and now the difference in timing disappeared
11:59:26 <kpreid> JuanDaugherty: "now"; it's not a very new usage, it was in the original jargon file. Also, it's a perfectly regular construction.
12:00:21 <JuanDaugherty> i c
12:00:57 <JuanDaugherty> "suboptimal" was the received usage I knew
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12:02:20 <pkhuong> kpreid: a pedant who works with optimality all day might argue that there is no degree of optimality/pessimality; in that case I'm pretty sure we can come up with worse ways to compare and 0d0.
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12:04:54 <nikodemus> pkhuong: pessimal in the sense that ccl's version does 5 x as well here
12:05:51 <nikodemus> ~156M iterations vs 34M iterations / s
12:06:10 <pkhuong> what's ccl's disassembly like?
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12:07:17 <nikodemus> http://paste.lisp.org/display/126154#1
12:07:44 <pkhuong> the comisd/cmov/cmov sequence isn't that hot, especially when the result is always the same.
12:08:09 <nikodemus> right. ccl also keeps an fp zero around in a register, it seems
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12:08:51 <pkhuong> nikodemus: or it's LAP notation for constant loading
12:09:21 <nikodemus> could be as well
12:09:50 <pkhuong> the only difference I see is that it's not testing for NaNness
12:11:46 <nikodemus> http://paste.lisp.org/display/126154#2
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12:12:27 <nikodemus> is there a way for me to turn the nan-test off in sbcl?
12:12:37 <nikodemus> s/a way/a quick way/
12:13:10 <pkhuong> redefine the double-float= vop?
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12:17:10 <nikodemus> no real difference
12:19:35 <pkhuong> I don't understand what CCL's disassembly means
12:20:49 <pkhuong> cmovel tests if SF != OF, right? COMISD always has OF = SF = 0.
12:23:31 <pkhuong> their type test is a bit tighter
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12:30:09 <pkhuong> no, it's actually pretty similar. The four differences I can see are: they load into FP registers right after the type check, they don't seem to have strange regalloc issues that cause a spurious reg-reg move before addsd, they don't check for unorderedness (it's cmov e l), and they get to use LEAVE.
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12:32:23 <nikodemus> disabling type-checks doesn't make a measurable difference for us
12:33:05 <pkhuong> how about inlining the +/= sequence? We might just suffer from our calling convention.
12:33:19 <nikodemus> by cranking the optimize settings i can also get rid of the spurious load -- no difference
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12:36:14 <pkhuong> that disabling the type checks doesn't make a difference for us makes me doubt a xorpd VS pxor can make a difference.
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12:36:44 <pkhuong> do you GC a couple times between defining the function and running it?
12:37:09 <nikodemus> microbenchmarking function calls makes us about equal
12:37:55 <nikodemus> i run the benchmark 10 times, and do a full gc before each run
12:37:56 <pkhuong> what's the body of the callee?
12:38:14 <nikodemus> (= 0.0d0 (+ x y))
12:38:29 <pkhuong> full GC moves the code object, that's not a good thing.
12:38:39 <pkhuong> I mean callee for the function call ubenchmark.
12:38:40 <nikodemus> true, let me turn that off
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12:40:29 <nikodemus> http://paste.lisp.org/display/126154#3
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12:40:59 <nikodemus> aha.
12:41:08 <nikodemus> i bet it's loading the constants
12:41:25 <nikodemus> let me fix that
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12:42:36 <nikodemus> yeah, now we're talking
12:43:02 <pkhuong> oh yeah. We really don't optimise for constant boxed floats.
12:43:06 <nikodemus> with constants preloaded outside the loop i get 215.47M iterations / second
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12:44:52 <nikodemus> i think we actually did ok there before inline constants
12:45:09 <nikodemus> since then we had them in the constant vector
12:45:29 <pkhuong> yup.
12:45:55 <pkhuong> I made a call that we didn't really care about this particular case.
12:47:04 <nikodemus> do we have a place where we can make a decision to not use inline constants for something?
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12:50:27 <pkhuong> it's in immediate-constant-sc
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12:57:45 <pkhuong> we could fix it for full calls.
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12:59:28 <nikodemus> that's what i was thinking about
12:59:46 <pkhuong> it'd be hairier to try and be clever for local calls
13:00:16 <nikodemus> full calls is the embarassing case
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13:02:30 <pkhuong> sure, that's not too hard. Add a slot in constant structs for a boxed constant tn, and use a variant of leaf-tn that by-passes immediate-constant-sc a bit in make-constant-tn.
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13:07:47 <pkhuong> and do something similar in emit-psetq-moves for local calls.
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13:14:10 <pkhuong> ... and lvar-tn could do something similar to avoid move from unboxed constants, so that templates would be OK as well.
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13:23:06 <nikodemus> pkhuong: wait, why do i need a slot in CONSTANT?
13:23:53 <nikodemus> http://paste.lisp.org/display/126154#4
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13:25:22 <pkhuong> nikodemus: otherwise we won't reuse constant vector slots.
13:26:53 <nikodemus> constants leafs are already unified
13:27:02 <pkhuong> but not references to them.
13:27:11 <pkhuong> Your way gets a new slot for each reference to the same leaf
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13:28:09 <pkhuong> ok, no, it's worse. You'll get a boxed or unboxed constant depending on the first call to make-constant-tn :|
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13:40:37 <madnificent> i thought alexandria had a construction which allowed you to setf a place to a function called on the current value of the place.  am i looking over it, or isn't it in there (if there's another library which has it, feel free to say so).  implementation is, indeed, trivial
13:41:22 <akovalenko> madnificent: it was some other library, (I can't recall which. Well, maybe even more than one.)
13:41:35 <madnificent> place-utils!
13:41:55 <madnificent> akovalenko: i just defined it and thought the name funcallf made sense for it, and i got the warning that i redefined something from place-utils :D
13:42:03 <madnificent> akovalenko: but thanks :D
13:42:12 <akovalenko> yes, place-utils
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13:47:45 <madnificent> the code generated by place-utils doesn't look particularly sexy though
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14:29:31 <nyef> G'morning all.
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14:57:10 <evenson> Is there an IMAP client distributed with Quicklisp? I can't seem to see one.
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14:57:52 <evenson> Any recommendations for an IMAP client?  The listing on cliki seem a little long in the tooth...
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14:58:59 <nikodemus> https://www.google.com/search?q=common+lisp+imap&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
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14:59:37 <Xach> evenson: a guy was working on an imap client but it didn't look promising to me. i don't know of multiple efforts.
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14:59:42 <nikodemus> (no recommendations, but #1, #2, and #4 on the google results are what i would investigate)
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15:00:01 <evenson> nikodemus: I was sort of looking for a recommendation on the maturity of code base.
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15:00:54 <nikodemus> i know people have used mel-base succesfully, but iirc it's not very pretty
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15:01:53 <evenson> My need is pretty simple:  poll a gmail inbox for incoming messages.  As long as one could use SSL on a stream I could probably swig it myself.
15:02:12 <Xach> evenson: fwiw, POP works for that too.
15:02:34 <evenson> Xach: thanks for the recommendations.
15:03:16 <jdz> nikodemus: that's wrong url; the right one is http://lmgtfy.com/?q=common+lisp+imap
15:03:18 <evenson> And nikodemus.
15:03:36 <Xach> I use Google mail from lisp, but it's emacs lisp, not CL.
15:03:52 <Xach> and it's POP-only (via gnutls-cli)
15:04:24 <Xach> (My use of it is POP-only. I think it could do IMAP if I tried it.)
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15:08:52 <p_l> Xach: Wanderlust works nicely with GMail, though it could use an update for Google IMAP extensions (native access to labels, for example)
15:09:14 <p_l> evenson: wasn't it possible to get an Atom feed from GMail?
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15:38:14 <gensym> My REPL hangs for a second or so while typing with "error in process filter: Wrong type argument: sequencep, :not-available". Both SLIME and SWANK from quicklisp...
15:39:41 <Xach> gensym: I sometimes get that error when my slime and swank are out of sync, but I haven't seen it for the latest slime & swank.
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15:41:13 <gensym> Xach: strange, I dont have any customization in .emacs for SLIME
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15:41:39 <Xach> Did you set it up with quicklisp-slime-helper?
15:41:48 <gensym> yes
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15:45:00 <chenbing> Hi,having a file "hello.lisp" within (defun hello...) what's the correct skill to run the lisp file in linux-shell? need a lisp-shell environment?
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15:45:47 <Xach> chenbing: The usual way is to start lisp, load the file, and then call the functions that the file defines.
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15:46:57 <chenbing> Xach: I know your meaning,and this lose the convience like php and python
15:47:15 <Xach> It is in exchange for other conveniences.
15:47:36 <pjb> chenbing: put   #!/usr/bin/clisp -ansi -q -norc      on the first line of hello.lisp; chmod +x hello.lisp ; ./hello.lisp
15:47:36 <Xach> Primarily interactive, incremental development.
15:47:56 <chenbing> by the way,I didn't know you were the author of quicklisp until today ,thank foryour wonderful works Xach
15:48:00 <pjb> chenbing: you will need also a (hello) at the end of the file, if not already there.
15:49:05 <Xach> The ability to work with real objects instead of streams of bytes is really handy.
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15:53:16 <chenbing> pjb thank for your information,I already know the basics
15:53:49 <pjb> Then what are you asking?
15:54:12 <chenbing> I mean the latter ,a (hello) :-)
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16:00:32 <eMBee> chenbing: you may know that (which is good), but i don't think it is basic, other languages do this differently
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16:03:33 <chenbing> oh, eMBee I acquire so much guides here and sometime in the past I am almost annoying...
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16:15:27 <gensym> Xach: do you have same versions: 2011-11-03 (slime), 2010-12-10 (swank)?
16:16:08 <eMBee> chenbing: where are you from?
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16:17:21 <Xach> gensym: Not sure, how can I check the versions?
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16:18:09 <gensym> They are from my emacs *Messages* buffer
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16:18:53 <gensym> Xach: search for "Versions differ"
16:19:01 <Xach> gensym: I don't have any such thing. My versions match.
16:19:23 <gensym> okay, thanks!
16:19:36 <Xach> gensym: what do you get from (ql:where-is-system "swank")?
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16:22:56 <gensym> Xach: Wrong directory, seems to be my asdf:*central-registry*
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16:23:33 <Xach> aiiee
16:23:51 <Xach> via .sbcl/systems or something?
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16:27:29 <gensym> Xach: good questions, don't know where i set it
16:27:34 *gensym* grepping
16:31:13 <gensym> -> .../source-registry.conf.d
16:31:31 <chenbing> seems a lisp machine(os) is the ultimate convience for lisper,:-) the native shell scripts are so  clumsy
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16:32:17 <Shaftoe> would there be a nicer way to express this: `(:a 1 :b 2 ,@(if foo `(:foo ,foo))) ?
16:33:33 <chenbing> eMBee I am from Hangzhou,a city near Shanghai
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16:35:01 <H4ns> Shaftoe: you could use "when" instead of "if"
16:35:07 <Xach> Shaftoe: or AND
16:35:48 <Shaftoe> specifically the ,@ though. no better way to make an item not show up at all in a list (instead of showing up as nil), right?
16:36:01 <nikodemus> win! http://random-state.net/tmp/2011-11-29.html
16:36:12 <Shaftoe> Xach: nice trick with the and.
16:36:13 <H4ns> Shaftoe: (append '(:a 1 :b 2) (when foo `(:foo ,foo)))
16:36:30 <Xach> Shaftoe: ,@(<something conditional>) is a fairly common construct for me.
16:36:37 <Shaftoe> yah, that's what I though too. alright, ,@(when it is then.
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16:37:56 <Xach> nikodemus: which bits?
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16:39:41 <nikodemus> single+, double-sans-result+, double-unsafe-sans-result+
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16:40:12 <chenbing> I am informed that ccl excel at multithreads and mulicpu sometime
16:40:40 <Xach> nikodemus: hah. sorting the results confused me. i thought they had the same order.
16:40:52 <Fade> chenbing: ccl threads everywhere it runs which wasn't true until recently of sbcl.
16:40:58 <nikodemus> yeah. presentation layer needs quite a bit of work yet
16:41:21 <Hexstream> madnificent: What in your opinion is not particularly sexy about the code generated by place-utils for FUNCALLF? Use of the very general BULKF operator in the expansion?... What would you like more instead?...
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16:43:40 <chenbing> Fade: Can you provide more simple English ,it's a little hard to understand
16:43:50 <chenbing> for me
16:44:13 <Fade> clozure cl has threads on windows, osx, and the various unix systems.
16:44:28 <Fade> sbcl doesn't thread by default on osx or windows.
16:45:05 <Fade> although there is expermental support for threading with sbcl on both osx and windows.
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16:45:32 <Fade> so if your target is osx or windows, clozure cl may be a better choice for you.
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16:53:04 <Xach> gensym: have you worked out the slime trouble?
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17:12:30 *Fade* wonders if there's a timer implementation as an extention in clozure cl
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17:16:50 <nyef> ... Still no word on a boston-lisp-meeting restart?
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17:18:15 <fisxoj> so, I'm still muddling along with clsql, and very few things seem to be working right.  I can create objects, but they don't seem to contain any of the data that I'd assigned to them with initargs
17:18:56 <Fade> fisxoj: paste some code.
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17:20:40 <fisxoj> http://paste.lisp.org/display/126157 assumes you've run (use-package :clsql) and have a database w/ table  connected
17:21:28 <H4ns> fisxoj: you need to use keyword symbols for your initarg declarations, not plain symbols
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17:21:39 <fisxoj> hah.
17:21:43 <H4ns> fisxoj: (at least if you use keyword symbols in make-instance)
17:22:04 <H4ns> fisxoj: curious though that your invalid initargs are not detected.
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17:22:29 <fisxoj> H4ns, maybe clsql's class definition code doesn't check as thoroughly?
17:22:38 <H4ns> fisxoj: seems like. bad.
17:22:41 <fisxoj> but, yes, things seem to be working now
17:22:54 <fisxoj> do you have any other experience with clsql?
17:23:09 <fisxoj> I've been having trouble with its table creation code, too
17:23:14 <H4ns> fisxoj: if you ask me, no.
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17:33:09 <Shaftoe> I use clsql extensively.
17:33:18 <Shaftoe> But I don't use any of the fluffy stuff.
17:33:24 <Shaftoe> I call connect, and I call query. End of story
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17:34:33 <Shaftoe> and it's been working quite well. There's only a couple of hacks I had to do to get it to work properly with unixODBC and freeTDS but I doubt it's specific to you. (it was about blob handling and also utf)
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17:35:29 <Shaftoe> otherwise it's mostly been stable enough to be usable in a production environment
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17:38:30 <Shaftoe> my only gripe has been with a rather difficult mechanism for adding types. So some types I can't directly read from the database, instead I convert them to varchars. I believe uuid and timestamp are the ones.. and bit required hacking.
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17:44:41 <Ralith> if you can afford to tie yourself to a specific DB, postmodern is fairly nice
17:44:59 <Ralith> a specific piece of DB software, that is
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17:52:58 <fisxoj> Shaftoe, so you haven't used the create-view-from-class or its ilk?
17:53:13 <fisxoj> Ralith, what's postmodern's spiel?
17:53:58 <Ralith> fisxoj: fairly clean, solid support for postgresql, including most of its nonportable extensions
17:54:03 <Shaftoe> fisxoj: maybe at the very beginning. as you may have noticed, it's buggy. In fact, it might not even be buggy, but just weird and fickle. I find that database wrappers are for languages that can't handle good macro's etc.
17:54:03 <Xach> It's pure CL, has a nice SQL-in-Lisp syntax (none of the [foo] stuff), works nicely with postgres features.
17:54:10 <Ralith> oh, that too
17:54:15 <Ralith> forgot clsql needed C bindings
17:54:24 <Xach> Well, some clsql backends don't.
17:54:42 <Ralith> also didn't realize that CLSQL required the reader macro!
17:55:25 <Xach> I don't know if it *requires* it, but it seems to be the way a lot of the example uses are structured.
17:55:28 <Ralith> fisxoj: what I liked best about it though is that it's fairly easy to patch.
17:55:30 <Shaftoe> fisxoj: and by that I mean: I have at my disposal the king of languages (lisp), so I don't need ot make use of views. This said, I do make extensive use of stored procs.
17:55:32 <Xach> i prefer the s-sql approach.
17:55:35 <fisxoj> so, I'm pretty ignorant of sqls in general.  Being pure lisp appeals to me, but is there also a "This one is more likely to run on the router I plan to run this on" department?
17:55:44 <Ralith> for example, defining a new s-sql expr is pretty easy
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17:56:05 <Xach> s-sql also works for generating sql for non-postgres backends, though sometimes it takes a little tweaking.
17:56:07 <nyef> I find that postmodern is insufficiently well documented, and has some traps for the unwary, but is still pretty good.
17:56:18 <Xach> by default it emits E'foo' syntax for strings, for example.
17:56:39 <Ralith> fisxoj: I'm not sure any of the major database engines are entirely appropriate for such a lightweight usecase, though I can't immediately see that they'd hurt.
17:56:51 <Ralith> certainly postgresql will put you no worse off than mysql.
17:57:06 <nyef> Oh, and the mapping from DAO-CLASS slots to table fields is insufficiently customizable.
17:57:09 <fisxoj> I'm mostly trying learn the stuff by way of building something to manage some stuff for the apartment
17:57:16 <oGMo> sqlite is probably more what you want for a router
17:57:18 <Ralith> the DAO-CLASS stuff isn't great in general
17:57:23 <Ralith> but you don't need to use it at all
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18:01:15 <fisxoj> oGMo, sqlite certainly sounds like a better idea, maybe I'll try to get that running instead!
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18:18:06 <Blkt> could anyone tell me an easy XML parsing library for Common Lisp?
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18:18:14 <pjb> xmls
18:18:25 <Blkt> thanks
18:18:35 <H4ns> Blkt: cxml is very good, but not particularly "easy"
18:18:38 <Xach> Blkt: what does easy mean to you?
18:19:08 <Blkt> I have a file containing rows like
18:19:09 <Blkt> <DOCNO>TWEET-014428</DOCNO>
18:19:09 <Blkt> <body>Y terminar de leer Ardores de agosto de Camilleri. Grande Montalbano,,!</body>
18:19:09 <Blkt> </DOC>
18:19:30 <Blkt> notice that DOCNO ranges about 113000 values
18:19:31 <Blkt> ordered
18:19:44 <Blkt> I have to filter out only some DOCNOs I need
18:19:47 <H4ns> Blkt: use klacks, it is easy.
18:19:49 <Blkt> that's all
18:19:56 <H4ns> Blkt: (it is part of cxml)
18:21:02 <nyef> klacks? How... '90s.
18:22:41 *vsync* only dealt with s-xml for XML parsing
18:22:43 <vsync> is klacks better?
18:23:42 <H4ns> vsync: depends on what you want to do.  s-xml is good if you're dealing with small files.  if you want to extract data out of large files, klacks or sax is better.
18:24:08 <vsync> H4ns: are you talking about a DOM versus event-based parser?
18:24:15 <H4ns> vsync: yes.
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18:24:21 <vsync> because i didn't bother with any DOM stuff in s-xml, IIRC
18:24:36 <vsync> i think it supports both
18:24:37 <H4ns> vsync: oh.  then ignore me.
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18:28:18 <H4ns> Blkt: i'd recommend that you look at both and let the documentation decide.
18:28:30 <Blkt> I'm doing it right now
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18:47:16 <homie> http://picpaste.de/pics/Bildschirmfoto10-7GneqI4x.1322592417.png
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18:49:14 <Fade> that's quite the collection of emacs frames, homie.
18:49:54 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@168.22.19.85] has joined #lisp
18:50:01 <wbooze> yes, i just wanted to show it works now, (almost like i wanted)
18:50:10 <Fade> beirc?
18:50:13 <homie> jep
18:50:21 <Fade> i didn't know you were hacking on it.
18:50:24 <Fade> what have you changed?
18:50:31 <homie> scroll-to-bottom and auto-join fails somehow...
18:50:42 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@168.22.19.85] has left #lisp
18:50:52 <homie> i changed colors mainly, to suit a darker theme
18:50:54 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@168.22.19.85] has joined #lisp
18:51:13 <Fade> it's running on sbcl?
18:51:17 <homie> yes
18:51:36 <Fade> well, it looks good.
18:51:45 <homie> yep, me thinks so too
18:52:03 <homie> i just wished there was some alternate color theme predefined....
18:52:09 <Fade> clim widgets still look weird in the context of the wm they're on top of, but it's a very clean looking display.
18:52:21 <Fade> how does beirc handle colour themes?
18:53:00 <homie> it's all via the files message-display.lisp and application.lisp
18:53:09 <homie> and receivers.lisp
18:53:35 <homie> setting things in application.lisp is overridden in receivers.lisp, so the main thing to change is actually in receivers.lisp
18:53:42 <homie> foreground, background thing
18:54:01 <homie> then the messages displayed have colors defined in message-display.lisp
18:54:18 <Fade> that's all hard coded?
18:54:23 <homie> jep
18:54:52 <Fade> make that an object protocol and you might revivify the project. :)
18:54:54 <homie> i just couldn't find a text-size :large for normal input/output
18:55:08 <homie> erm, object protocol ?
18:55:34 <homie> all other server messages i could resize, cause they had a :text-size thing in the code
18:55:51 <Fade> put the configuration data in a class or classes and set up a protocol of generic functions around them, so that it'd be easy to change per user.
18:55:52 <homie> it's just normal channel messages and my own input i couldn't resize....
18:56:24 <homie> hmmm, if i would know pcl/clos that well, i would i think.....
18:56:53 <homie> but without help i can't do that, at least i would have to swallow keene's book......
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18:57:02 <homie> first i mean.....
18:57:09 <Fade> well, CLOS is worth knowing.
18:57:16 <Fade> for what it's worth. :)
18:57:19 <homie> i just know some basic things.....
18:57:55 <homie> and it's not only about clos/pcl, it's about the application logic too, i'm not sure i get the latter either.....
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18:58:02 <Ralith> what happened to the project to get mcclim on top of gtk?
18:58:54 <Fade> well, i just loaded beirc, and this is I think the first time I've had it not fail nearly instantly. that's pretty cool.
18:59:02 <homie> i already have the clim-listener and climacs setup for dark theme, happily there was a predefined one for climacs.....
18:59:11 <leo2007> Fade: could you fix this bug in asdf for ccl? http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.openmcl.devel/7531
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18:59:40 <Fade> probably, but you're confusing me with Fare
18:59:50 <leo2007> ahh, sorry.
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19:14:09 <nyef> Is there an implementation of OAuth 2.0 available somewhere, or am I about to have a "fun" work week or two?
19:15:23 <Xach> Share the fun when you're done.
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19:16:10 <nyef> ... damn.
19:16:29 <nyef> That's /really/ not what I wanted to hear.
19:17:11 <antifuchs> oauth 2.0 is past draft yet?
19:17:24 <nyef> antifuchs: So far as I am aware? No.
19:17:36 <nyef> That said, apparently some stuff requires it, so...
19:17:53 <antifuchs> meh
19:18:05 <antifuchs> sounds dangerous ):
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19:18:23 <nyef> Well, I'll try cl-oauth, perhaps it'll get the job done.
19:18:41 <antifuchs> fingers crossed!
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19:22:58 <nyef> Hrm. The documentation clearly says OAuth 2.0.
19:23:43 <Blkt> what does "Document not well-formed: Garbage at end of document." means in CXML?
19:23:55 <nyef> And links to draft-ietf-oauth-v2-22.
19:24:09 <dlowe> Blkt: you're only allowed one root node in a XML document
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19:24:59 <Blkt> wish there was your reply as error string instead of that one
19:25:13 <Blkt> for is much easier to understand
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19:26:02 <H4ns> Blkt: you need to learn xml basics, really.
19:27:02 <Blkt> well
19:27:05 <Blkt> NIST people too then
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19:27:15 <Blkt> since I'm using a "correctly" formatted TREC collection
19:27:36 <H4ns> Blkt: maybe it is not xml?  :)
19:29:02 <Blkt> I've always been told they use XML by my teachers at University
19:30:03 <dlowe> Blkt: XML is more than balancing angle brackets
19:30:45 <dlowe> if they're going to claim it's correctly formatted, they should write a schema and verify their documents against it
19:31:06 <Blkt> well, right now I only have to filter out some documents in a TREC collection
19:31:42 <Blkt> 1400 out of 113000
19:31:50 <Blkt> I can't do that by hand
19:32:10 <Blkt> and XML parsing seems the quickest way
19:32:10 <H4ns> Blkt: and they come in one file, with no top-level element surrounding them?
19:32:20 <Blkt> no
19:32:37 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
19:32:40 <Blkt> and Terrier handles them just fine (Terrier is an information retrieval platform)
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19:32:50 <H4ns> Blkt: then it is not an xml document.  but you can try to make it into one by wrapping a top-level element around them.
19:32:57 <Blkt> didn't work
19:33:04 <dlowe> Terrier probably has a crummy xml parser
19:33:06 <Xach> Blkt: is the file public?
19:33:10 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-150-107.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp
19:33:13 <Blkt> yes, I can send it to you
19:33:17 <Xach> Blkt: it is making me super-curious
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19:33:27 <Blkt> well, it won't be very interesting
19:33:31 <H4ns> Blkt: paste the beginning to paste.lisp.org
19:33:36 <dlowe> Blkt: try s-xml. It also has a crummy xml parser that won't choke on bad xml
19:33:38 <H4ns> like the first 100 lines.
19:33:38 <Xach> Blkt: it has led to an interesting discussion so far
19:33:44 <Xach> Blkt: my email is xach@xach.com
19:33:55 <Blkt> our teachers downloaded it from Twitter
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19:34:44 <Blkt> it's file with stuff like <DOC><DOCNO>TWEET-123</DOCNO><body>blablabla from twitter</body>
19:34:50 <Blkt> </DOC>
19:34:58 <Blkt> and mainly in italian language
19:35:03 <Blkt> do you still want it?
19:35:12 <Xach> Italian! The language of scholars! Yes! Send!
19:35:18 <Blkt> ok
19:35:27 <H4ns> Blkt: if it is nothing more, then wrapping a top-level element around the whole file should work.  or at least give a different error message when parsed.
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19:36:16 <Blkt> I get another message
19:36:23 <H4ns> right.  what message?
19:36:29 <Blkt> it's due to all & in the body
19:36:35 <Blkt> Document not well-formed: Expecting name after &.
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19:37:04 <pkhuong> yeah. That's just angled brackets ML.
19:37:05 <H4ns> ah, ok. so it contains undefined entities.  it is not a proper xml document then.  maybe s-xml is more forgiving.
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19:37:13 <pjb> Blkt: So you lied to us all the time.  They're not XML documents!
19:37:18 <pjb> Blkt: write your own parser.
19:37:23 <_schulte_> Blkt: maybe you could use sed to turn the text into a lisp data structure, then just read in the file
19:37:32 <Blkt> I did not lie, I've been told it's XML
19:37:43 <pjb> You forwarded a lie.
19:37:45 <Blkt> I neve lie
19:37:45 <H4ns> Blkt: your teachers lied to you
19:37:48 <Blkt> never*
19:37:54 <Blkt> I just figured that out
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19:38:07 <_schulte_> Blkt: e.g., sed 's/<DOCNO>/:/g;s/</DOCNO>/ /g', etc...
19:38:35 <pjb> Well, it's still a parenthesized structure, so better use a parser than regexps...
19:38:47 <Blkt> I agree with pjb
19:38:49 <Xach> Blkt: i keep refreshing my mail client, no luck :(
19:38:56 <Blkt> 16MB
19:39:04 <Blkt> uploading to GMail
19:39:12 <Xach> Blkt: can it be compressed?
19:39:16 xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp
19:39:24 <Blkt> maybe, too late to verify it
19:39:32 <Blkt> sent it
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19:40:44 <dlowe> looks just like this: http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/lemur/wiki/Quick%20Start
19:41:07 <Blkt> yes
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19:41:50 <H4ns> embedded html, beautiful :)
19:42:40 <dlowe> oh, here's the actual terrier project: http://terrier.org/docs/v3.5/terrier_http.html
19:43:37 <Xach> if you use bogus xml, the terrierists have already won
19:44:55 <Blkt> Terrier was my teacher's PHD thesis at Glasgow
19:45:19 <Blkt> he was the first using gamma code for index compression
19:46:07 <dlowe> hehe. typical academia. Write amazing searching technology, fail to get conforming xml
19:46:19 <dlowe> I say that with all affection
19:47:05 <dlowe> Blkt: well, you could try to run it through a filter first to turn it into XML
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19:47:22 <dlowe> changing & to &amp; would probably get you a long ways
19:47:28 <H4ns> Blkt: you could also use regular expressions to match the entries.
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19:47:41 <H4ns> dlowe: then there is the embedded html, and the possibility of embedded <>
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19:48:45 <Blkt> the best regular expression I made was this
19:48:46 <Blkt> "<DOC>\n<DOCNO>TWEET-014470</DOCNO>\n<body>.*</body>\n</DOC>"
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19:49:11 <H4ns> Blkt: and that failed to work because...?
19:49:13 <Blkt> except for the TWEET-123456 which had to be taken as argument
19:49:36 <_schulte_> if this is something you only have to do once, you could even use an Emacs macro
19:49:39 <Xach> http://xach.com/tmp/tweet.TREC.gz is the file, in case you wanted to base the discussion on facts regarding the document.
19:49:41 <Blkt> because I tried it in elisp and I had problems managing buffers
19:49:44 <dlowe> Blkt: seems like you could register groups on there
19:49:49 <Xach> rather than poorly-relayed third-hand information
19:50:21 <dlowe> Xach: thanks
19:50:33 <dlowe> Xach: 403 hurt my feeling
19:50:49 <dlowe> I only have one to spare
19:50:51 <Blkt> "poorly-relayed"...
19:51:19 <H4ns> Blkt: cl-ppcre should work for you
19:51:31 <Blkt> I'll give it a try
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19:52:37 <Blkt> it would be nice to have an IR platform in Common Lisp
19:52:37 -!- waltwhite_ is now known as waltwhite
19:52:47 <H4ns> Blkt: you could use do-matches to find all matches for the regexp.  maybe you want to use multi-line mode if the body can contain newlines, and .*? to capture the shortest match.
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19:53:02 <Blkt> Terrier is terrible when you have to implement new score functions for documents
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19:54:19 <Xach> what!
19:54:38 <Blkt> what "what!"?
19:54:43 <Xach> 403!
19:54:47 <Blkt> yes
19:54:47 <Xach> dlowe: fixed
19:54:52 <dlowe> Xach: thanks :)
19:55:38 <Blkt> how long do you plan to keep it there?
19:55:44 <H4ns> Blkt: cl-ppcre will do just fine.
19:55:47 <dlowe> I think it could be fixed with a filter. There doesn't seem to be any actual html except for the body tags
19:55:47 <Xach> Blkt: probably no longer than 10 years
19:56:07 <Blkt> far enough
19:56:12 <H4ns> (now that i've seen the file)
19:56:33 <dlowe> it even has a root node.
19:56:38 <Blkt> nono
19:56:40 <Blkt> I put it there
19:56:45 <dlowe> oh :D
19:56:52 <Blkt> I was trying out your hints :D
19:57:07 <Xach> I wanted to try using concatenated-streams to solve the problem :(
19:57:12 <dlowe> Blkt: Try replacing & with &amp; and see if it'll parse
19:57:12 <Xach> I haven't found a use for them until now!
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19:57:35 <dlowe> wait. no.
19:57:37 <Blkt> dlowe: I'm going to try cl-ppcre with multiline match first
19:57:43 <dlowe> Blkt: sure thing
19:58:05 <dlowe> < and > are escaped properly
19:58:59 <dlowe> and accented chars. just not ampersands
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19:59:25 <dlowe> well, if nothing else, you'll get excellent industry experience dealing with crummy format
19:59:35 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
19:59:44 <dlowe> and attempting to normalize it to something that can be processed
20:00:08 <Blkt> dlowe: how comes?
20:00:35 <dlowe> Blkt: an awful lot of business coding is doing just that
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20:05:36 <Xach> Blkt: what is your filtering criteria?
20:06:14 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp
20:06:14 <Blkt> I have a list of TWEET-****** that I need to keep
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20:07:47 <Xach> grep -B 1 -A 3 'TWEET-\(...\|...\)' tweet.TREC | grep -v ^-- > filtered.TREC
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20:10:05 <Xach> Hmm, needs some tuning.
20:10:12 <Blkt> how could I make it work with a file containing the TWEET-123456 rows?
20:10:29 <Xach> What file?
20:11:01 <Blkt> I have a file containing the DOCNOs I need to keep
20:11:17 <Xach> For that you will have to use your brain.
20:11:28 <antifuchs> use join(1) to construct a regex (-:
20:11:30 <Xach> Better yet, write a lisp program that constructs the shell script for you.
20:11:33 <nyef> There's some way to grab each line of a text file into a variable in succession in shell script...
20:11:38 <antifuchs> (this is when yo go insane)
20:11:48 <nyef> But, really, find a shell scripting howto or something.
20:12:22 <antifuchs> ah, not join, I meant paste.
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20:12:51 <Blkt> I'd rather insist with CL for now
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20:14:14 <Xach> Fair enough: (sb-ext:run-program "/bin/bash" (list "-c" (format nil "grep -B 1 -A 3 '~A' tweet.TREC | grep -v ^-- > filtered.TREC" (file-line-regexp file))))
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20:16:31 <_schulte1> this almost gets there, but leaves a dangling "," which I can't track down https://gist.github.com/1406278
20:16:41 <Iceland_jack> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_abaca.htm : why does (item) destruct the first(?) of the list?
20:17:47 <Xach> Iceland_jack: that is how loop destructuring works.
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20:18:13 <Xach> _schulte1: oh, old news. no need to mash it into xml at all.
20:18:18 <Blkt> _schulte1: oh my god :D
20:18:22 <Iceland_jack> Xach: I get the logistics of something like a = 1, b = 2 from (a . b) of (1 . 2)
20:18:33 <Xach> Oh, right, that's not mashing into xml.
20:19:01 <Iceland_jack> but as I understand it, (item) is destructed from (1 2 3) (2 3) and (3)
20:20:14 <Xach> Iceland_jack: see http://l1sp.org/cl/6.1.1.7 particularly "Detructuring allows ..."
20:20:23 <Iceland_jack> Thank you
20:20:27 <Xach> ŧ If there are more values than variables listed, the extra values are discarded.
20:20:55 <Iceland_jack> ah
20:20:56 <Xach> It's not like destructuring-bind in that way (and in others, like using NIL as a variable name)
20:21:04 <Iceland_jack> I see, that's what threw me
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20:23:18 <LaPingvino> hello y'all, some time ago I was here...
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20:24:03 <LaPingvino> in the meantime Pomo here learned some lisp and he got to know most of freenode just today. be nice to him ;)
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20:24:35 <Xach> LaPingvino: How is your lisp game IDE going?
20:25:21 <LaPingvino> stalled
20:25:30 <LaPingvino> very slow internet here :(
20:25:44 <Pomo> When did you start that project?
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20:31:50 <LaPingvino> 1 or 2 years ago I guess...
20:32:33 <LaPingvino> I gotta leave soon, Xach, can you point to the climacs stuff out there?
20:33:20 <LaPingvino> I fiddled a bit with Lispbuilder and need to create a better basis still... the Climacs part will have to wait I guess :S...
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20:35:29 <_schulte1> Blkt: ok, this may already be solved, but had to fix my shell script
20:35:41 <_schulte1> Blkt: this updated script works for me https://gist.github.com/1406278
20:36:26 <Blkt> let me try it
20:36:50 <LaPingvino> Xach: Pomo started a bit with C++ when I showed him lisp, so he could concentrate more on datastructures and design. He is very smart, self-concious but sometimes lacking some social clue. I hope he can get some tutoring from more people than just me here ;).
20:37:04 <LaPingvino> I am going to leave soon, so if I don't answer it's because of that
20:37:19 <Pomo> lol, thanks for that introduction
20:37:40 <LaPingvino> Pomo: not to offend you of course :)
20:38:30 <LaPingvino> Pomo: the people here are nice, but as far as I know will insist on some basic things you might not see yet, at least some people, I think you will like it :)
20:38:40 <LaPingvino> going to eat now, and then off!
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20:58:55 <Blkt> _schulte1: it is perfect
20:59:18 <Blkt> I can handle that now
20:59:37 <_schulte1> Blkt: great, happy it works
21:01:21 <kilon> hi sorry for the super noob question, but how easily does lisp interface with c and c++ libraries ?
21:01:30 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp
21:01:35 <pjb> Very with C, hardly with C++.
21:02:17 marsell [~marsell@101.116.32.98] has joined #lisp
21:02:21 <kilon> pjb thanks for the reply, i am a python developer, now learning smalltalk and lisp keeps mentioned alot so i am curious about it
21:02:30 <nyef> It varies a bit with C, depending on how much macrology there is.
21:02:38 <pjb> kilon: check http://cliki.net/
21:02:40 <blackwolf> kilon: see cffi
21:03:24 <Xach> kilon: I remember being impressed by the ability to define interfaces to C libraries and then immediately call C functions with just a couple lines in the interactive REPL.
21:03:37 <kilon> squeak (smalltalk dialect) interfaces very easily with its own FFI with c, and python with ctypes (another FFI) and yes i have checked CFFI , but it seemed to me too complicated
21:03:41 <Xach> I thought there would be more song and dance, some kind of intermediate translation, or something. Nope!
21:03:54 <kilon> ok so you dont need wrappers
21:04:04 <kilon> you wrap the dll with lisp code ?
21:04:05 <Xach> Well, it depends on the library.
21:04:34 <kilon> CFFI mentioned problems with structs
21:05:01 <Pomo> So if I'm porting a C program to lisp, how would I go about using the headers the original C program used?
21:05:11 <blackwolf> kilon: you load the library into the running Lisp, then interactively call APIs in the library/DLL/.so - neat stuff.
21:05:11 <pjb>  Why would you want to do that?
21:05:25 <Xach> kilon: not many APIs use structs in the ways that are problematic, from what I can tell.
21:05:37 <kilon> ok i see
21:05:45 Guthur [~user@212.183.140.53] has joined #lisp
21:05:46 <blackwolf> Pomo: swig
21:05:53 <blackwolf> (generally)
21:05:53 <kilon> that is exactly what i want, a direct and easy way to call c libraries
21:05:54 <pjb> Pomo: rewriting a C programs in Lisp usually involves 1/10 to 1/30 the LoC.
21:05:59 waveman [~tim@203-214-39-56.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp
21:05:59 <Xach> kilon: Why?
21:06:21 <kilon> well i dont know if lisp has the libraries i want
21:06:36 <Xach> What do you want?
21:06:46 <kilon> by the way i am extremely new with lisp so excuse my vast ignorance
21:06:50 <blackwolf> kilon: that's the cool thing: just use the C libraries.
21:07:00 <kilon> i am just investigate if i really want to learn lisp
21:07:02 <pjb> kilon: check http://cliki.net/
21:07:10 <kilon> yes i do pjb
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21:08:00 <kilon> by the way I have been to CFFI website
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21:08:13 <kilon> before coming here, and i have read the tutorial
21:08:34 <kilon> it seems it took to many step to just call a c function
21:08:49 <pjb> swig generates the cffi automatically.
21:08:57 <gigamonkey> kilon: if you're maybe interested in learning Lisp why worry first about whether you can still use C?
21:09:16 <kilon> i dont like c , and i dont want to use it
21:09:27 <gigamonkey> So don't. Use Lisp!
21:09:29 <kilon> the only thing i care is that i have the libraries i need
21:09:43 <gigamonkey> kilon: so why assume you're going to have to run back to C for them?
21:09:49 <pkhuong> kilon: In Lisp, libraries are mostly written in Lisp.
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21:10:03 *blackwolf* huffs ... does't like C ... *hrmph*.
21:10:20 <kilon> well for example , i am trying to make a painting application, and i will need tablet support for wacom tablet
21:10:37 <kilon> i also need a very flexible skinable GUI api
21:10:39 <LaPingvino> you can call the kernel directly if you so wish
21:10:45 <kilon> i can ?
21:10:47 <kilon> wow
21:11:07 <LaPingvino> and (sorry if I offend someone) you could look into Clojure for GUI stuff
21:11:31 <LaPingvino> it's not Common Lisp, but it's lisp ;) (or ABCL of course, but that has less the community...)
21:11:36 <Pomo> LaPingvino likes Clojure
21:11:37 <LaPingvino> (i believe...)
21:11:46 <LaPingvino> I got to Common Lisp by Clojure
21:11:58 <LaPingvino> learned Clojure first, then got a Common Lisp job :P
21:12:40 <kilon> well i dont mind if it is 100% lisp, i just want to satisfy the needs for this particular programm
21:12:54 <kilon> also is there an ide for lisp ?
21:13:15 <kilon> i am a big fan of ides and visual ways of programming
21:13:15 <pjb> kilon: several.  emacs+slime and others.
21:13:32 <kilon> emacs is a text editor like vim , no ?
21:13:38 <pjb> No.
21:13:41 <kilon> i have used vim , not emacs
21:13:49 <pjb> emacs is a lisp machine.
21:14:01 <markskilbeck> on which you might edit text
21:14:02 <kilon> ah yeas i know emacs is made on lisp
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21:14:27 <kilon> but does it use gui elements to browser through code, map objects, search functions etc ?
21:14:36 <pjb> Yes.
21:14:51 <kilon> ok then definetly i will take a look at it ASAP
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21:14:57 <kilon> thanks pjb
21:15:19 <kilon> i thought emacs was similar to vim , but with shortcuts instead of text commands
21:15:32 <kilon> no idea it used guis
21:15:34 <pjb> No, it's entirely different.
21:16:00 <kilon> downloading it ;)
21:16:07 <dlowe> well, there's gvim if you want a gui vim
21:16:10 <Pomo> It can run in text mode too with the -nw option
21:16:19 <kilon> gvim is still a text editor
21:16:27 <kilon> its not an ide
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21:16:35 <markskilbeck> it can be
21:16:40 <kilon> i used macvim
21:16:52 <markskilbeck> emacs isn't an IDE until you make it one.
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21:17:00 <dlowe> markskilbeck: in the sense that you can add C code to it until it is one
21:17:13 <LaPingvino> but then, you can use it as an IDE, especially for lisp. SLIME gets close :P
21:17:13 <austinh> kilon: Emacs is probably not what you are thinking of when you say you want a big visual IDE, but it's still your best option, especially for Lisp.
21:17:19 <kilon> no i want something that is a true IDE, not something that is a text editor with the potential to become an IDE
21:17:36 <pjb> kilon: emacs is the lisp machine. The ide is slime.
21:17:37 <Xach> kilon: LispWorks has something more like that.
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21:17:43 <kilon> well to be clear i am looking for semthing similar to DELPHI
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21:17:46 <LaPingvino> kilon: emacs + slime is very much better than most other IDEs
21:18:08 <kilon> squeak is close to that, but i am also considering other languages thus my interest in lisp
21:18:13 <Pomo> Yes, it's very easy to compile and test code
21:18:16 <LaPingvino> kilon: but yeah, you can try LispWorks etc. Most of the interface is copied from Emacs though :P
21:18:16 <ehu> LaPingvino: the advantage of ABCL is that you have the full common lisp community to help you with your coding issues.
21:18:33 <ehu> the *only* reason you'd need ABCL specific help is with bugs
21:18:33 <LaPingvino> ehu: have you seen the Clojure-community?
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21:18:53 <kilon> LaPingvino: i heard that vim is better than IDEs but for me it was not
21:19:02 <LaPingvino> ehu: Clojure even has commercial support and training now
21:19:15 <austinh> kilon: No offense, but I think there is a good chance that you don't know what you are missing with Emacs + Slime. You ought to give it a go.
21:19:17 <ehu> LaPingvino: ABCL has commercial support.
21:19:27 <ehu> it's even on their webpage.
21:19:35 <LaPingvino> ehu: ah okay :)
21:19:36 <kilon> austinh: already downloading
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21:19:55 <LaPingvino> ehu: just for curiosity, is there a working .NET Common Lisp?
21:20:02 <Xach> LaPingvino: no.
21:20:12 <LaPingvino> because Clojure works there too
21:20:38 <LaPingvino> for me basically if I want bare-metal stuff that runs fast (including games) Common Lisp is better
21:20:51 <kilon> i assume emacs works on macs ? ;)
21:21:02 <LaPingvino> but for most web-stuff, Clojure is very very nice :)
21:21:02 <pjb> http://emacsformacosx.com
21:21:09 <Xach> kilon: yes.
21:21:17 <_schulte1> kilon: http://emacsformacosx.com/
21:21:28 <ehu> LaPingvino: no. we don't run on .Net (well, we do, through Mono, but that doesn't count).
21:21:34 <kilon> pjb ah i was downloading gnu emacs
21:21:34 <LaPingvino> I have worked on a Common Lisp webservice, and Clojure makes it just 100% nicer to work with web-stuff
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21:21:53 <LaPingvino> ehu: how on Mono? that does actually interest me :P
21:22:03 <Xach> LaPingvino: If you make things better for Common Lisp, please share your work.
21:22:10 <kilon> thanks
21:22:13 <tyson1> LaPing: you mean nicer than Common lisp?
21:22:34 <ehu> LaPingvino: but the point is that Clojure was reimplemented to run on .Net, if you're willing to spend the effort, you could do the same for a CL implementation.
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21:22:49 <LaPingvino> ehu: well, it was the plan from start to run on .net
21:22:53 <ehu> LaPingvino: dmiles_a1k has the details.
21:23:00 <LaPingvino> and it's getting more and more all implemented in Clojure itself
21:23:06 <ehu> he has done it more than once.
21:23:10 <kilon> parentheses syntax makes me very worried , but a language that can modify itself is very appealing
21:23:13 <LaPingvino> they are now talking about implementing it on PyPy and LVMM
21:23:58 <kilon> but would love to give it a try
21:24:01 <LaPingvino> kilon: parentheses syntax is addictive, believe me. Especially with tools like emacs that indent your code for you based on those parentesis
21:24:24 <LaPingvino> and the only place where it looks off place is in maths, I guess, but there is also the biggest advantage
21:25:00 <LaPingvino> because evaluation order is documented in your code, not just in the rules of the language and in your head
21:25:10 <kilon> no i mean i dont know if i can get use to it, i always find too many parentheses confusing even in python
21:25:28 <LaPingvino> the same rules as with python apply
21:25:31 <austinh> The parens only look weird at first. It's very easy to get used to.
21:25:40 <pjb> kilon: there are less parentheses in Lisp than in most other languages, such as C or C++.
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21:25:49 <LaPingvino> just indent well and you will get confused with code that doesn't have it
21:25:52 <pjb> kilon: in C/C++ you have to count []{}() and <>.
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21:25:56 <LaPingvino> yep
21:26:08 <pjb> kilon: in lisp there's only () and you cannot add gratuituous parentheses.
21:26:16 <blackwolf> pjb: and , and ;
21:26:22 <pjb> right.
21:26:30 <kilon> ok i take your word, i dont like to prejudge things and the verdict for my is far from being complete ;)
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21:27:05 <austinh> kilon: Also, a good editor makes the parens actually a blessing. They are very easy to navigate around and indentation is automatic (which allows you to ignore them).
21:27:18 <antifuchs> some lisps might let you add an fdefinition to nil though, which you can then abuse to return nil (-:
21:27:20 <kilon> i see
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21:27:35 <kilon> automatic indentation certainly makes code readable
21:28:08 <blackwolf> consistent too
21:28:13 <kilon> another question is how much lisp is used for graphics and music
21:28:24 <pjb> kilon: a lot.
21:28:26 <kilon> these are the 2 areas that interest me
21:28:35 <austinh> kilon: Fair warning though, diving into Emacs + Slime + Lisp takes some patience and effort.
21:28:37 <kilon> great
21:28:38 <pjb> kilon: graphics and music were basically invented in lisp, on lisp machines.
21:28:43 <LaPingvino> kilon: the coolest thing is that you can paste code in an environment that cuts out whitespace, and emacs can add the whitespace back without trouble ;)
21:29:00 <pjb> kilon: again, check cliki.net
21:29:04 <kilon> i dont mind be patient when i am rewarded for it
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21:29:20 <kilon> bookmarked
21:29:23 <kilon> ;)
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21:30:17 <kilon> i dont need great deal, tablet support, opengl, and some access to os libraries
21:30:26 <blackwolf> kilon: knocking out simple utilities with a handful of lines of lisp is worth it. I'm verifying the output of 250K C++ apps with Lisp procs that are less than 50 lines
21:31:00 <kilon> i hear that lisp and squeak work nicely together so i would not mind using both for my project
21:31:28 <kilon> blackwolf: wow that is impressive
21:31:51 <blackwolf> kilon: ... or an indicator that the C++ sucks donkey balls
21:31:51 <anvandare> 250k c++ ? o_O
21:31:53 <kilon> yeah i read that lisp excels on processing source code
21:32:02 <blackwolf> +code
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21:32:44 <kilon> taking bath and will be back in 10 minutes
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21:36:23 <blackwolf> anvandare: 250K+ lines of C++, and most of it is templated, multiple inheritance, etc. fun to debug.
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21:44:17 <Pomo> I've been wondering for the longest time how to get lisp to draw on the screen without using a library like sdl or opengl
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21:44:58 <homie> you'd have to implement all of sdl or opengl in lisp then......
21:44:59 <gigamonkey> Pomo: how would you do it some other language without using a library?
21:45:01 <pjb> Pomo: depends on your screen. If you have a X screen, the use X primitives.
21:45:06 <homie> or something like it at least.....
21:45:21 <Borbus> Was just looking through some of my commits on my last lisp project, noticed I stopped quoting lambdas at one point, but it seems I've started again and can't remember or seem to find whether you should quote them or not.. so, should I?
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21:45:34 <gigamonkey> Borbus: matter of taste.
21:45:36 <homie> and ncurses and Xlib library you'd need anyway....
21:45:45 <homie> erm s/and/or/
21:45:49 <Pomo> gigamonkey I haven't done it in any other language
21:46:02 <gigamonkey> I assume by "quoting" you mean #'(lambda ...) vs (lambda ...)
21:46:10 <Borbus> Yep
21:46:26 <homie> setq is a macro, lambda is a macro......
21:46:45 <gigamonkey> LAMBDA is defined as a macro that expands into (function (lambda ...)) (i.e. #'(lambda ...))
21:47:11 <gigamonkey> It was put in mostly so ISLISP could be written as a portability layer in pure Common Lisp.
21:47:12 <nyef> ... SETQ isn't a macro.
21:47:20 <blackwolf> homie: setq is a special operator
21:47:42 <nyef> IIRC, LAMBDA originally was a macro, then it was taken out, then it was put back in for ISLISP compatibility.
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21:48:16 <Borbus> So by doing #'(lambda ...) it may compile quicker?
21:48:27 <gigamonkey> Borbus: if you can notice the difference you have super powers.
21:48:31 <pjb> Borbus: yes, but it's a premature optimization.
21:48:51 <Borbus> I may as well keep doing it then, it makes sense to me to do that anyway
21:49:00 <pjb> By doing (lambda ...) instead, you have the opportunity of shadowing lambda, and defining it as a different macro.
21:49:11 <gigamonkey> I used to use #'(lambda ...) on the grounds that it was more in tune with CL's Lisp-2 nature.
21:49:16 <pkhuong> pjb: as much as you can shadow FUNCTION.
21:49:30 <blackwolf> oooooh ... shadow lambda .... sounds like fun.
21:49:33 <homie> jep, special op, not macro
21:49:48 <homie> setf is macro
21:50:02 <Pomo> pjb: Yes, I have an X screen, so the primitives are all those things contained in the X11 folder?
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21:50:16 <pkhuong> Ah. You mean shadow the symbol itself. That would be a nice obfuscation trick.
21:50:31 <pjb> Pomo: I don't know what you mean by "X11 folder".  I'd rather have a look a the clx package...
21:50:43 <pjb> or it may be named xlib.
21:50:44 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
21:51:09 <nyef> ... The module is CLX, the package is XLIB.
21:51:34 <nyef> ... and the bifurcation is sometimes confusing.
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21:52:26 <Borbus> Maybe check the stumpwm project to see how it does it
21:53:32 <Pomo> Or perhaps sawfish?  I use that wm and it's lisp-based
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21:54:38 <Borbus> I may end up with a machine with a C compiler but no lisp, where do I start in order to be able to build sbcl?
21:55:32 <Borbus> I suppose I could find binaries, but that doesn't seem as fun
21:55:34 <pjb> Borbus: clisp.
21:55:45 <homie> another lisp binary together with it's core or another sbcl binary
21:55:57 <pkhuong> xcl, or a cross-compile.
21:55:58 <pjb> Borbus: the "c" in clisp means it's written in C.
21:56:02 <blackwolf> Borbus: download the binary, install to $TMP, then grab the source (what I did)
21:56:11 <Borbus> So CLisp doesn't need a lisp at all to build?
21:56:17 <pjb> Borbus: it doesn't.
21:56:26 <homie> clisp not
21:56:38 <Borbus> Cool, will keep that in mind then
21:59:08 <kilon_away> is lisp like smalltalk , written in itself ?
21:59:19 <gigamonkey> kilon_away: much of it.
21:59:28 <gigamonkey> Depends on the impl.
21:59:29 -!- kilon_away is now known as kilon
21:59:31 <pjb> kilon_away: lisp is a language.  Implementations can be written in any language.  Turing Machine equivalence.
21:59:36 <kilon> beautifully
21:59:40 <gigamonkey> I don't think there are any that go so far as Squeak.
22:01:03 <kilon> well squeak kinda "cheat" as it relies heavily on slang which is a smalltalk dialect but converts itself into C which is then compiled
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22:02:35 <Borbus> Bootstrapping is one of the things I find cool about computers
22:02:59 <kilon> emacs installed, looking through tutorial
22:03:41 <blackwolf> kilon: #emacs fwiw
22:03:57 xan_ [~xan@191.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp
22:04:05 <kilon> fwiw ?
22:04:32 <blackwolf> for what it's worth ... in case you have questions re: emacs
22:04:42 <kilon> oh sure
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22:04:48 <blackwolf> s/in case/when/
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22:04:52 <kilon> i guessed so , as with #vim
22:05:24 <Borbus> The next thing to do is install SLIME btw
22:05:47 <blackwolf> and quicklisp
22:05:47 <Vivitron> I might recommend installing slime through quicklisp
22:05:51 <Borbus> Even if you hate emacs for some strange reason you should still use it for slime
22:06:08 <samebchase> kilon: may you not be misled by heretical editors on the road to emacs mastery
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22:07:01 <kilon> sorry to sound impatitent, but where are exactly the ide tools, because so far the tutorial is all about text processing
22:07:15 <pjb> kilon: slime
22:07:47 <pjb> http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/
22:08:01 <gigamonkey> kilon: though SLIME will probably not be what you're looking for if you're expecting something with lots of menus and icons.
22:08:02 <blackwolf> kilon: emacs isn't like a standard text editor, it's a lisp engine with extensions for text processing.
22:08:29 <kilon> exactly why it appeals to me, i want an ide that i can customise and even extend
22:08:49 <blackwolf> think he wants "Eclipse for Lisp" ... :)
22:09:10 <samebchase> eclispse
22:09:10 <Borbus> Menus and icons make you a slower programmer ;)
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22:09:35 <Borbus> Turning that stuff off is the first line in my .emacs
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22:09:45 <kilon> no i want Delphi , or something like squeak
22:10:07 <kilon> i dont need much, just a debugger, a gui builder and browsing through objects
22:10:29 <blackwolf> kilon: ah, then Emacs might be what you want. Like Lisp, most of Emacs is written in Emacs Lisp. part of getting a comfortable environment is writing Emacs Lisp code to configure/extend the base editor.
22:10:36 <Borbus> I don't even know what browsing through objects means
22:10:50 <pkhuong> Borbus: an inspector.
22:10:59 <pjb> Borbus: (inspect object)
22:11:29 <kilon> well its for OOP, an object browser hides code from you and keeps only names of clases and methods
22:11:39 <pjb> Borbus: or C-c I in slime.
22:11:53 <nonduality> kilon: ecb is quite nice if you want some gui-like object browsing in emacs
22:12:16 <kilon> let me explain my problem
22:12:17 <pjb> kilon: in CLOS, methods are attached to generic functions.  Classes don't have methods.  Therefore there's no point to browse classes-and-methods in CL.
22:12:27 <kilon> i am not good at understanding code line by line
22:12:33 <felideon> nonduality: does that hook into swank?
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22:12:40 *nicdev_* could never get ecb propery configured..should give it another shot..
22:12:57 <kilon> what i am good at is understanding structures level by level
22:12:57 <Borbus> Oops I bound C-c I to magit
22:13:12 <kilon> so i like to have a birds eye view of the code
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22:13:34 <felideon> the AllegroCL IDE has a class browser, fwiw
22:13:43 <gigamonkey> If you want a GUI builder I think you may want Lispworks.
22:13:48 <kilon> to understand its basic structure , then move to the actual code
22:14:06 <kilon> i like to you work in layers
22:14:08 <felideon> in the sense that it shows you class hierarchies and such, not sure it's the same you're used to from Smalltalk
22:14:35 <pkhuong> kilon: different languages structure programs differently.
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22:14:37 <nonduality> felideon: nafaik
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22:14:54 <kilon> ok checking clos, alegrocl and ecb
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22:15:20 <kilon> pkhuong: that is why i dont want Eclipse for Lisp
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22:15:27 <kilon> i want an ide that is made for lisp
22:15:31 <felideon> kilon: throw LispWorks in there
22:15:42 <kilon> not an ide that try to fit in lisp
22:15:51 <kilon> felideon: will do
22:15:54 <pkhuong> kilon: you're describing tools that don't make sense in CLOS.
22:16:15 <Borbus> I find CLOS pretty awesome and never wanted anything like that
22:16:17 <kilon> CLOS is ?
22:16:25 <Borbus> It's much better than C++ and Java if you're used to them
22:16:37 <Borbus> CL Object System
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22:16:56 <Borbus> Which is pretty awesome because it's all written in Lisp macros
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22:17:05 <pkhuong> Borbus: not quite.
22:17:26 <Borbus> But it could be...
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22:17:52 <kilon> I dont want to look on the internals of an object, i just like to see only a map of objects first to get a feel of what is happeing with the code
22:18:02 <kilon> then move to the code
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22:18:29 <gigamonkey> kilon: problem is "a map of object" doesn't have as much meaning in a language based on generic functions than one based on singly-dispatched methods.
22:18:41 <kilon> i also like a tool that keeps my code in small fragments that are easy to digest but also helps me jump around with ease between fragments and informs me of the relations of those fragments
22:18:48 <blackwolf> Brooks, Chapter 9 (``The Mythical Man-Month''?): ``Show me your [code] and conceal your [data structures], and I shall continue to be mystified. Show me your [data structures], and I won't usually need your [code]; it'll be obvious.''
22:19:07 <gigamonkey> If that's really what you want, you want Smalltalk.
22:19:13 <pkhuong> blackwolf: sure. It's not talking about class hierarchies though.
22:19:36 <Vivitron> kilon: slime does have some nice jumping, for example jumping to the definition of a function is a simple keystroke
22:19:46 <kilon> i am not saying hide code forever, i am only saying , understand the structure first and then understand the code
22:19:48 <nonduality> kilon: ecb again :)
22:20:04 <Vivitron> kilon: the debugger/compiler integration in slime is also nice
22:20:14 <gigamonkey> Lisp is incredibly flexible but that comes at the cost of not lending itself as well to simple hierarchical browsing the way Smalltalk does.
22:20:48 <gigamonkey> In Lisp you can make your fragments as small as you want and then use M-. to jump from definition to definition.
22:20:48 <pkhuong> I just read code and jump around with M-. If it makes sense to assimilate the class definitions first, that's what I read first.
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22:21:53 <pkhuong> Then again, it seems I'm a low-tech programmer.
22:22:02 <kilon> gigamonkey: that is what i love about squeak the zoom in and zoom out of the code at any level you want and the way it shows you what functions is implemented where and send you there and also shows which function uses that function and the same aplies for variables too
22:22:18 <pkhuong> kilon: slime has that.
22:22:33 <gigamonkey> pkhuong: what's the SLIME magic to get a who-calls list?
22:22:39 <kilon> so in a matter of a minutes i know exactly the flow of execution
22:22:52 <gigamonkey> (I belive you, I just don't know what it is.)
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22:23:01 <kilon> ok will look at slime closely
22:23:06 <pkhuong> gigamonkey: M-x slime-who-calls ?
22:23:10 <gigamonkey> duh.
22:23:25 <kilon> i cant find ecb by the way, if one can point me i will apreciate it
22:23:42 <nonduality> ecb.sourceforge.net/
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22:23:55 <pkhuong> kilon: a huge difference is that the class hierarchy isn't central to the exploration.
22:24:31 <Borbus> I started to use ecb when I first started to use emacs but quickly realised I didn't need it
22:24:40 <kilon> what is central then ? i must confess i dont even know if OOP or even procedureal programming works similarly as in other languages
22:24:46 <kilon> in lisp.
22:25:04 <kilon> so maybe all the tools i request are not that needed
22:25:06 <pjb> abstraction
22:25:11 <pjb> in various guises.
22:25:38 <kilon> i am no fan of abstraction
22:25:46 <pjb> kilon: then forget about lisp.
22:25:55 <kilon> :(
22:26:06 <albino> no fan of abstraction?  isn't that the point of programming at all?
22:26:09 <nonduality> Borbus: i find it usefull when having some file to get a quick overview of its content
22:26:13 <markskilbeck> wat.
22:26:26 <kilon> no i mean i dont like when programms get too abstract
22:26:29 <Borbus> kilon: you program in machine code then?
22:26:38 <kilon> no of course not
22:26:50 <Odin-> Borbus: Even that is pretty abstract.
22:26:50 <Xach> kilon: Better to say what you mean.
22:26:54 <kilon> what i mean is that i try to keep it simple
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22:27:19 <kilon> i dont want to create a huge amount of objects just to implement a simple feature
22:27:24 <Borbus> That's what abstractions do!
22:27:40 <Borbus> You build tiny steps higher and higher until you can do somethign useful
22:27:51 <pkhuong> kilon: sometimes I don't even create any class to implement full programs!
22:28:01 <Xach> what you say!
22:28:22 <gigamonkey> Xach: read your script yesterday. Good stuff.
22:28:22 <kilon> i dont know lisp so i dont know how to reply
22:28:39 <Xach> gigamonkey: thanks. i was reluctant to share, but that audio..
22:28:49 <Xach> gigamonkey: now how about your ILC2010 script? :)
22:28:50 <gigamonkey> kilon: abstraction is nothing more than hiding irrelevant details.
22:28:53 <gigamonkey> Heh.
22:28:57 <kilon> but for me more objects make code more difficult to understand
22:29:09 <Borbus> Me too :P
22:29:12 <gigamonkey> And in Lisp we have many ways of hiding irrelevant details.
22:29:23 <gigamonkey> Xach: don't even remember what I said. ;-)
22:29:26 <pjb> kilon: nobody forces you to use objects in lisp progras.
22:29:27 <H4ns> kilon: with lisp, you can avoid objects totally if you donīt like them.
22:29:31 <pjb> s/progras/programs/
22:29:34 <gigamonkey> Wasn't there video of my talk?
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22:29:45 <kilon> well i love OOP
22:29:45 <Xach> gigamonkey: only your audio
22:29:54 <gigamonkey> H4ns: for a non-Lisp definition of "object" of course. ;-)
22:29:57 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.87.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
22:30:08 <H4ns> gigamonkey: of course. like in "clos is optional"
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22:30:19 <kilon> objects make sense to me, but already wikipedia says that lisps does OOP diferently
22:30:25 <pjb> kilon: you're silly. You want to program in lisp, but don't like abstraction.  Objects make code more difficult to understand, but you like OOP!
22:30:27 <gigamonkey> kilon: you might want to take a peek at Chapters 16 and 17 of http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
22:30:37 <fisxoj> can I store lists in sql?
22:30:41 <pjb> kilon: programming is hard, go shopping!
22:30:54 <kilon> pjb: i did not say that
22:30:54 <nowhere_man> hi, did someone recently use hunchentoot?
22:30:54 <H4ns> kilon: lisp does not "do" objects. it has a very sophisticated object system that you can use, if you want.
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22:31:03 <H4ns> nowhere_man: yes.
22:31:06 <pjb> fisxoj: it's usually done by storing each element in a different row.
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22:31:07 <Borbus> Lisp is a multi-paradigm language, you can even do the most beautiful of programming which is functional
22:31:10 <nowhere_man> I just quickloaded it, and it doesn't compile
22:31:12 <kilon> i did not say i dont like objects
22:31:15 <fisxoj> nowhere_man, I'm playing with it right now!
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22:31:26 <pjb> kilon: I just copy and pasted what you wrote.
22:31:28 <gigamonkey> H4ns: FSVO "optional" (Search google to see me getting reamed by Erik Naggum for suggesting such a thing.)
22:31:38 <fisxoj> pjb, but what if I don't know how many elements the list will have :)
22:32:17 <H4ns> gigamonkey: you can write meaningful, beautiful lisp programs without every using defclass.  or even defmethod/defgeneric.
22:32:19 <fisxoj> nowhere_man, you're going to need to tell people some output to get help, maybe pastebin your errors?
22:32:20 <pjb> fisxoj: you write a loop that will iterate a variable number of time depending on the length of the list.  Ie. you will be doing what's called "programming".
22:32:39 <kilon> i dont find coding hard
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22:32:49 <fisxoj> pjb, snarkiness aside, my problem is more how to put that into sql, which I'm not very familiar with
22:32:57 <GrayMagiker> nowhere_man: have you seen this? http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/11/word-of-warning.html
22:32:57 <kilon> its time consuming , it needs patient , but is not that hard
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22:33:21 <Borbus> "Coding" is easy.. it's the design of the algorithms and program that is hard
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22:34:06 <gigamonkey> H4ns: yeah, sorry. I totally understand what you're saying. I'm just pointing out that it's hard to say it in a way that can't be disptued.
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22:34:21 <nowhere_man> actually, that's when I was typing the error I was seeing that I realized what the culprit was
22:34:28 <kilon> all i am saying is that with OOP, its easy to go down the route of creating to many objects and making a really complex structure, this of course can happen with procedural programming as well, but i think OOP is abit more tempting in that respect
22:34:29 <H4ns> gigamonkey: i'm very bad at saying things about lisp that can't be disputed :) :(
22:34:34 <nowhere_man> I had a ancient version of bordeaux-threads lying around
22:34:39 <Xach> nowhere_man: what is the culprit?
22:34:42 <Xach> ah
22:34:54 <Xach> jeers to that
22:35:10 <pjb> kilon: I don't know how you can create too many object. My programs always create the exact number of objects they need.
22:35:25 <kilon> then you are a good coder
22:35:29 <kilon> ;)
22:35:45 <pjb> kilon: if you have two windows in your app, why would you create 3 window objects???
22:35:45 <Ralith> pjb: I think it's normally referred to as a memory leak
22:35:51 <Ralith> so long as we're being factious anyway
22:35:54 <Ralith> facetious
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22:36:13 <gigamonkey> kilon: just so you know, people have moved into "confuse the newbie" mode.
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22:36:27 <H4ns> :D
22:36:37 <gigamonkey> Your best bet is to start hacking some Lisp and maybe read some stuff until you learn a bit more about Lisp.
22:36:39 <kilon> for example in a gui you got a world class, that is a dummy class, then another that is called, generalpanel, again dummy maybe with one function, then panel, than windows , then frame, then .... to lead to a button
22:36:49 <kilon> for me this is abstraction turn bad
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22:37:24 <gigamonkey> kilon: yes. Nobody disagrees. But saying "abstraction" is bad is a very odd thing for a programmer to say.
22:37:24 <kilon> when you use object not to encapsulate code but more to describe designe , you make complex unecessary structures
22:37:45 <pjb> kilon: what I would agree is that in some non-lisp languages, there are libraries that contains way too many classes to do some simple things.  I never saw that in Lisp programs.
22:37:50 <H4ns> gigamonkey: i know of a top-notch programmer who repeatedly said "i don't like typing"
22:37:58 <gigamonkey> pjb: you haven't looked at the Hunchentoot code. ;-)
22:37:58 <Borbus> :O I just read the topic.. McCarthy died... shocking that I hadn't heard
22:37:59 <kilon> well english is not my mother tongues and i intend to right stupid things i dont mean
22:38:11 <kilon> sorry for that, i did not mean all abstraction are bad
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22:38:40 *gigamonkey* feels he can say that after paying the dues by grokking it.
22:38:41 <pjb> gigamonkey: and on the other hand, some of my own code also have a lot of small classes, but they're internal.
22:38:48 <kilon> i can certainly see the use of abstraction especially for designes that are meant to be extended in the future and need to be flexible
22:39:21 <gigamonkey> kilon: just so you know, every time you define a function (or method or subroutine or whatever you want to call it) you are creating an abstraction.
22:39:23 <pjb> kilon: You need to read "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs"   http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html  and watch the videos:  http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/
22:39:44 <pjb> All the tools lisp provides are about abstraction.
22:40:22 <kilon> i was only talking about classes by the way
22:40:25 <GrayMagiker> pjb: couldn't you say that about most any programing language though?  (though perhaps lisp provides better tools for better abstractions than most languages)
22:42:06 <gigamonkey> Hmmm. Maybe SBCL should record the location of an implicit DEFGENERIC at the site of the first DEFMETHOD it reads.
22:42:29 <pjb> GrayMagiker: perhaps, but lisp has more of them, since it has macros and reader macros.
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22:42:49 <gigamonkey> I get a ton of "Unknown location ..." warnings from underlying libraries that don't define generic functions explicitly. It'd be nice to see where they're coming from.
22:43:17 <gigamonkey> (Better yet would be a way to tell ASDF or SLIME to not tell me about warnings coming from systems other than the one I'm currently loading.)
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22:44:03 <kilon> pjb
22:44:07 <kilon> thanks
22:44:35 <kilon> maybe my use of term "abstraction" is wrong
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22:46:27 <kilon> oh it is not, i know though what you mean
22:46:45 <kilon> yes you are right of course , reading your link makes sense, functions are abstractions
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22:48:41 <kilon> very nice book, i thought it will bore me with theories but it makes lisp so clear and easy to digest, thanks again
22:49:18 <pjb> Also, since lisp uses a uniform syntax for special operators, macros, and functions, the code itself is quite abstract.  There's no apparent difference between accessing an array element, or fetching a value from a database: (aref a i) or (fetch d k) have the same form.
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22:49:45 <homie> sicp uses scheme syntax, but the syntax is very near of common-lisps
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22:50:10 <homie> (define (blah a b c)....) is (defun blah (a b c)....) for example....
22:50:16 <Ralith> kilon: if you think theory is boring, programming is not for you.
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22:50:40 <Iceland_jack> Ralith: you can program without theory
22:50:44 <Ralith> Iceland_jack: not very well!
22:50:51 <Iceland_jack> Didn't qualify that!
22:50:53 <Iceland_jack> ;)
22:50:53 <pjb> (in c-like languages, it would be a[i] vs. d->fetch(k) ; in C++ you could use a[i] and d[k] however, but C++ has a lot more problems).
22:50:54 <Ralith> :P
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22:51:03 <Iceland_jack> but just saying, for some it may be a neccesary evil
22:51:13 <Ralith> gigamonkey: can't you catch style-warning, inspect the compilation state, and quash or re-signal as appropriate?
22:51:27 <Ralith> Iceland_jack: these are what we usually call "bad programmers"
22:51:28 <Ralith> :P
22:51:32 <Iceland_jack> hm, maybe
22:51:40 <kilon> Ralith: i have been programming for 23 years now, mainly for fun, i dont think that will change any time soon and yes i dont like theories , i am a practical person
22:51:50 <homie> there are more prominent differences ofc......
22:51:51 <Ralith> and it's entirely reasonable to say "if you [are likely to become a bad programmer], programming is not for you"
22:52:09 <Iceland_jack> I don't agree that it follows
22:52:18 <pjb> kilon: have you noticed "Practical Common Lisp"   http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/  (It's mentionned in cliki.net in various places).
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22:52:25 <Ralith> kilon: solving nontrivial practical problems requires strong theory.
22:52:27 <Iceland_jack> think theory is boring  bad programming
22:52:57 <kilon> theory # knowledge
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22:53:19 <pjb> kilon: theory is a mapper's knowledge.
22:53:28 <gigamonkey> Ralith: yeah, but how do I set that up when I do, in SLIME, ,load-system foo<return>
22:53:32 <Ralith> Iceland_jack: application of theory is necessary for any unsolved problem
22:53:53 <kilon> what is a "mapper" pjb ?
22:53:55 <Ralith> gigamonkey: stick an :around method on asdf's load op?
22:54:06 <Iceland_jack> Where did unsolved come from?
22:54:17 <Ralith> presuming that's not excessively global
22:54:19 <pjb> kilon: google for mapper vs. packer.
22:54:34 <pjb> the first two links are good.
22:54:34 <Ralith> Iceland_jack: unsolved, nontrivial, etc
22:54:49 <Iceland_jack> The two are not synonymous
22:54:54 <Ralith> Iceland_jack: I don't consider cranking out boilerplate and redundant systems to be worthwhile.
22:55:15 <Iceland_jack> Ralith: Please stick to what we were discussing
22:55:21 <Ralith> Iceland_jack: no.
22:55:22 <Ralith> ^^
22:55:25 <Iceland_jack> Fine.
22:55:59 <kilon> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?MappersVsPackers
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22:56:28 <kilon> i am mapper
22:56:48 <kilon> from what i read, actually my memory is too bad to be a packer
22:57:02 <Iceland_jack> > Oh good, another BinaryDivision.
22:57:30 <pkhuong> let's not repeat the whole history of ward's wiki here.
22:58:09 <kilon> when i say theory, i mean assumption based on knowledge , for me theory can never be knowledge
22:58:24 <kilon> but anyway i dont want to turn to philosophical
23:00:20 <gigamonkey> Ralith: might work.
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23:00:36 <kilon> thanks for all the help guys you are amazing
23:01:02 <Ralith> gigamonkey: I enjoyed having such a mechanism to rebuild FASLs as needed back when SBCL cached them in the local FS
23:01:37 <kilon> i have bookmarked all your suggestion and already go through them
23:02:56 <kilon> i can already see the appeal for lisp, maybe its the right programming language for me maybe it is not , but i want to give it a serious try
23:04:01 <gigamonkey> Woot! toot is the most watched CL project on github this month
23:04:49 *GrayMagiker* claps
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23:17:09 <nowhere_man> gigamonkey: do you have somewhere a text describing how and why you made toot from hunchentoot?
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23:17:45 <nowhere_man> gigamonkey: neverming, I just stumbled on notes.txt
23:18:03 <gigamonkey> nowhere_man: note, however, that those notes are probably somewhat out of date.
23:18:38 <gigamonkey> And many sections are really just scribbles to myself
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23:20:21 <gigamonkey> Basically I took hunchentoot and deleted everything I never used myself (e.g. easy handlers) and then started making generic functions non-generic wherever I could.
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23:20:52 <gigamonkey> And then went to town renaming things to suit my own sense of style
23:21:27 <Ralith> perfectly normal "oh god this library annoys me I am going to CUT OUT THE BAD" reaction
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23:23:01 <gigamonkey> Ralith: something like that.
23:23:06 <nowhere_man> I actually like the idea of removing special variables
23:23:17 <gigamonkey> nowhere_man: oh yeah, that was another major phase
23:23:38 <gigamonkey> There's still a few left that can probably be moved into the acceptor object.
23:23:56 <nowhere_man> now that object-capabilities idea are deeply embedded in my brain, special variable make me cringe
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23:29:23 <kilon> i watch a video demostration of slime, emacs and lisp of course and I love what i am seeing, obviously there many tool here that are not available in squeak, very exciting stuff
23:29:26 <Ralith> all those specials did bother me
23:29:36 <Ralith> kilon: share the video?
23:29:38 <kilon> http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov
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23:29:47 <Ralith> I keep meaning to find a good one of those to show off to people who wonder why I use slime+emacs
23:30:27 <kilon> its almost an hour long and he uses slime and emacs in diffirent computer across a network
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23:31:26 <Ralith> that sounds rather longer than I had in mind for attracting newbies
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23:32:33 <kilon> i am a newbie
23:32:43 <kilon> :) and it does not scare me off
23:32:52 <kilon> but yes of course i know what you mean
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23:33:41 <Ralith> it's more a matter of people generally not being invested enough at that point
23:34:36 <kilon> well i watch it for getting an idea on lisp too
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23:35:33 <kilon> Ralith: this is shorter ---> http://www.unixuser.org/~euske/vnc2swf/slime.html
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23:46:29 <kilon> clozure looks very neat as well
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