00:00:24 -!- xan_ [~xan@75.Red-95-122-109.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:04:32 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189-38-236-209.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:04:34 fisxoj, try this: `'(,c 1) instead, maybe it works? 00:05:53 -!- Bahman [~user@2.146.44.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:07:46 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-111-231.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:07:59 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-255-43.as43234.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:08:25 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-255-43.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:33 scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has joined #lisp 00:08:56 is there a function to split a string by newlines and return a list of strings? 00:09:39 http://www.cliki.net/SPLIT-SEQUENCE 00:11:05 anything built-in (or something builtin that can get me close)? 00:13:35 scottj: not really. easy to roll with position, subseq 00:14:44 actually I just noticed stumpwm already has cl-ppcre loaded so I can just use it's split 00:17:09 -!- dlowe_lt [dlowe@nat/google/x-yckdrwsiodqbdlaz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:20:37 XiOnn [~simonhj@ip-44-60.bnaa.dk] has joined #lisp 00:21:23 -!- XiOnn [~simonhj@ip-44-60.bnaa.dk] has left #lisp 00:22:04 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 00:23:52 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.243.29.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:24:08 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.243.29.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 00:28:20 JoHNMiDGLeY [~crazeddy@173.242.123.82] has joined #lisp 00:29:56 (loop with sstream = (make-string-input-stream the-string) for line = (read-line sstream nil :eof-value :eof) until :eof collect line) or something like that 00:34:12 -!- p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:36:00 p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has joined #lisp 00:36:57 pspace [~andrew@adsl-75-10-149-144.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:17 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:37:22 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.3.115] has joined #lisp 00:41:12 -!- ThomasH [468228d8@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 00:42:11 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:43:25 knob [~knob@66.50.244.130] has joined #lisp 00:44:05 kennyd [~kennyd@93-142-33-240.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 00:44:59 Hello everyone! =) 00:45:22 hi knob 00:47:54 benny [~benny@i577A313E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:49:06 SwashBuckla [~simon@unaffiliated/swashbuckla] has joined #lisp 00:51:19 anyone know of a minifier and a (possibly separate) beautifier tool for lisp source code? 00:53:09 Kron [~Kron@69.166.21.48] has joined #lisp 00:53:36 -!- Kron is now known as Guest70494 00:53:42 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.21.48] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:54:49 chp [~chp@c-68-45-180-238.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:50 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.21.48] has joined #lisp 00:55:50 -!- Guest70494 [~Kron@69.166.21.48] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:56:59 #'read and #'pprint ? 00:58:29 -!- cnl [~cnl@95.106.65.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:00:07 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-40.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:00:23 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-90.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:01:03 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-90.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:01:10 cnl [~cnl@95.106.65.176] has joined #lisp 01:01:30 SwashBuckla: why would you want to minify lisp? 01:02:39 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-40.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:04:22 I mean, vim nicely formats my code as I go along, but I wish to write (or adapt an existing) tool for formatting scheme to make marking students work less painful 01:04:31 I thought lisp would be similar 01:05:21 SwashBuckla: pprint probably does what you want, but I was asking about minifcation, not formatting. 01:07:21 I plan on minifying an example so I don't embarrass a specific person 01:07:43 I could just do it manually 01:09:05 it's for scheme and someone has already informed me of a useful beautifier: DrRacket 01:10:44 (pprint (read)) will execute reader-macros. 01:10:56 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:11:16 SwashBuckla: Oh, there's a dedicated channel for #scheme :) 01:11:18 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:17 -!- p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:13:21 naryl: I doubt students so new to lisp as to be mangling their formatting will be doing much reader macro use 01:13:26 but good point nonetheless 01:15:38 cerebral_monkey [~berkley@fl-184-1-93-113.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:07 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@175.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 01:16:13 -!- pspace [~andrew@adsl-75-10-149-144.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:24 p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has joined #lisp 01:17:13 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:22:45 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-10-10.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:23:00 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-10-10.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 01:28:38 -!- Farzad [~root@46.225.97.187] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:30:31 naryl: thanks :) 01:40:33 msponge [~msponge@31-35-129.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 01:49:36 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:53:45 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 01:55:03 samvelst [~Adium@c-24-16-70-10.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:53 -!- samvelst [~Adium@c-24-16-70-10.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:00:17 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-142-33-240.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:01:12 -!- Whitesqu_ [~notwhites@94.242.138.61] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:01:39 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:03:13 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.77.20] has joined #lisp 02:06:45 -!- S1am [~guest@eth-209.20-homell.natm.ru] has left #lisp 02:07:32 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-222-161.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:11:58 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:17:54 stratobacker [~user@c-98-202-137-87.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:34 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.21.48] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 02:20:54 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.21.48] has joined #lisp 02:21:49 -!- bhaskara` [~user@gw.willowgarage.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:21:54 gko [~gko@42-73-208-110.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:07 -!- felideon [~felideon@184.105.242.75] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 02:30:18 yours_truly [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #lisp 02:30:39 -!- lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:30:58 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:31:43 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483B2BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:13 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:33:28 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B278.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:36:29 how does one exit cmucl? 02:36:37 (ext:quit) i believe. 02:37:32 thanks 02:38:07 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:42:16 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.243.29.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:46:18 -!- dmiles_afk is now known as dmiles 02:46:18 -!- dmiles is now known as dmiles_afk 02:46:50 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-10-10.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:47:05 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-10-10.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 02:49:08 Hello... I'm on the very basics of LISP. Have a question about "what" is happening 02:49:13 This is from the book::: http://pastebin.com/UihFgZMF 02:49:27 Just trying to follow the 'process' of whats going on. 02:49:43 pspace [~andrew@adsl-75-10-149-144.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:50 From what I take, we 1st define the function called my-length, and feed it list 02:50:05 What book are you reading? 02:50:11 Land of LISP 02:50:27 with the odd alien guy (Henry!) and the comics =) 02:50:48 My big doubt is inside the if 02:51:12 knob: (if A B C) is like if A then B else C 02:51:22 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: short is good.] 02:51:40 -!- SwashBuckla [~simon@unaffiliated/swashbuckla] has left #lisp 02:51:49 Ok, thanks... and specifically on line 3 02:52:03 Where it says (1+ does that mean we are starting out in 1, and then adding to it? 02:52:13 Or we are "adding 1" to the value? 02:52:16 lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:26 knob: 1+ is the name of a function that returns its argument + 1 02:52:27 the latter, it's like (+ 1 02:52:35 -!- yours_truly is now known as Nisstyre 02:52:36 (1+ 1) => 2 for example. 02:52:42 Jesus christ that's eye opening. 02:52:54 So 1+ is an actual Lisp function? 02:52:59 Yes. So is +. 02:53:02 yep 02:53:13 That explains a lot. What would +. do? 02:53:51 + returns the sum of its arguments, or 0 if there are no arguments. 02:54:03 (+ 1 2 3) => 6 02:54:08 (+) => 0 02:54:16 ahh... ok ok 02:54:46 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.214.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:55:00 So on (1+ (my-length (cdr list)) || cdr will take the first "atom" of the list... and add it to my-length? 02:55:43 (cdr list) gives you a list with all but the first element of list 02:55:51 knob: Nope. It's a recursive call to my-length with the tail of the list. 02:55:56 so (cdr '(1 2 3)) => (2 3) 02:56:06 At the end of the list, (cdr list) will return NIL. 02:56:42 So ... sorry, but how does the my-length counter increase? with the 1+? 02:56:42 I don't think SICP is great for learning Common Lisp, but it does cover basics like this. 02:56:56 my-length is a function 02:57:34 (( I'm thinking over here... =) thanks for the help... trying to visualize this )) 02:57:49 (my-length ()) -> 0, (my-length '(singleton-list)) -> (1+ (my-length ())) 02:57:55 knob: how about this: what does my-length do if you call it with the empty list? 02:58:28 0 or NIL ? 02:58:36 (( also, Vivitron's example helped =P )) 02:59:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.15.185] has joined #lisp 02:59:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.15.185] has quit [Changing host] 02:59:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 02:59:57 knob: so you've got it now? 03:00:16 So on that pastebin, when the if evaluates as true, automatically it adds 1 from the 1+, and that's the start of the rest? 03:00:33 I'm... almost there. I'm just wondering... 03:00:43 -!- natesm [~pelican@nate.xen.prgmr.com] has left #lisp 03:00:54 knob: work from the inside-out 03:00:55 OK 03:00:59 yes! 03:01:04 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:01:10 sty [~quassel@bas2-toronto61-2925399486.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:01:13 knob: I'm not a big fan of SICP for learning Common Lisp, but it does cover how recursive evaluation works fairly clearly. 03:01:18 Ok now... so if list was, liek you guys say, (), then it'll return 0 03:01:24 knob: you might want to check out the beginning of the book. 03:01:37 SICP... .. on my way to google 03:01:51 knob: structure and interpretation of computer programs 03:02:01 I'm there... awesome =) 03:02:52 or you could just put that pastebin into a REPL and (trace my-list) 03:02:59 er my-length 03:03:04 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:03:07 Ok, final n00b question: So the answer 4 ((@ http://pastebin.com/UihFgZMF ))... it wasn't saved in any variable... it's just what "lisp evaluates to" ? 03:03:21 trace my-list? 03:03:25 that...s ounds... 03:03:28 on my way 03:03:29 =) 03:03:31 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 03:03:43 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:03:54 knob: Yes. 03:04:18 (trace my-length) then (my-length '(a b c)); I think you'll find the output illuminating 03:05:43 knob: but yeah, it's not stored in any variable. 03:05:45 I'm on CLISP, and (trace my-length) just came back (MY-LENGTH)... ye tthe other one... that... that I can study now 03:05:50 Ok! 03:06:22 That was a big wth... I thought it was stored like "inside" list or something. It's just stored inside "imaginary temporary cute lisp bucket" 03:06:26 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dirgkzynswlvifss] has joined #lisp 03:06:56 So on the (my-lenght '(a b c)) ..... 03:06:57 ahhh 03:07:15 so first the cdr took care of the three characters... it got to NIL 03:07:35 then 03:07:40 those are symbols, not characters. 03:07:49 then... then 1+ time the quantity in the "imaginary bucket"? 03:07:55 *symbols... thanks =) 03:08:07 then 1+ times the quantity... ? 03:08:28 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:08:54 no wait... haha... I'm almost there 03:09:14 cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-7-83.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:22 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-7-83.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:11:09 Ok, so on the (my-length '(a b c)) ..... when the trace goes (A B C) --> (B C) -----> NIL 03:11:21 are we still inside the if ? 03:11:39 what happens inside the if? Do we call a function? 03:11:44 (( oh, and I just realized that the (trace my-length) DID in fact actually do what had to be done )) 03:12:02 Yes... my-length 03:12:23 and for this second round... list is now modified with one less symbol? 03:12:48 basically 03:13:00 Kron__ [~Kron@69.166.21.48] has joined #lisp 03:13:12 cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-7-83.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:45 I think that's where I am. So after evaluating (1+ (my-length (cdr list))) ..... do we go "out" all the way back to the top @ defun my-length (list) ? 03:13:56 Or are we still "in loop" inside the if ? 03:14:14 from the trace... i think we're still inside the if 03:14:21 after we evaluate it we are out, but we aren't done evaluating it yet 03:14:30 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:14:35 *mind blown 03:15:01 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:15:02 each trace print is a new call to my-length 03:15:13 but we haven't finished the first call yet 03:15:27 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 03:15:45 from the inside out... inside out.... okok 03:15:48 well, the first four are calls, the last four are return values not calls, and it appears that the numbers on the calls and returns corredspond to each other 03:15:57 Cloud_ [~cbolano@187.193.255.61] has joined #lisp 03:16:21 knob: This is where you look up "tail call". 03:16:34 Zhivago: actually this is not a tail call 03:16:38 knob: First try to understand the form (1+ (1+ (1+ 0))). Work your way from the inside out one step at a time. 03:16:40 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:16:55 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.21.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:17:43 That's why you look up "tail call". 03:18:24 Ahhhh! DANG thanks... I think now. 03:18:51 So, when we go back to the (if list , if list still has 2 symbols (after the first "run") 03:19:01 So she runs again 03:20:25 Cloud__ [~cbolano@189.227.234.244] has joined #lisp 03:20:31 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-7-83.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 03:20:33 Ok, another ?... the output of the trace, it goes 1, 2, 3, 4, and then 4, 3, 2, 1. 03:21:01 Is the 4 corresponding to the other "step 4"... or just ... 03:21:07 That's because you're going there and coming back again. 03:21:26 You can re-organize it so that the return trip can be skipped. 03:22:37 Think of a function call as stepping to the left, and a return as stepping to the right. 03:22:45 -!- Cloud_ [~cbolano@187.193.255.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:22:54 hmmm I see.. 03:22:57 So you step 1, 2, 3, 4 meters left, and then step back 4, 3, 2, 1 to the right to get back to where you were. 03:23:19 ThomasH [468228d8@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 03:23:24 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-208-220-16.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:23:24 Greetings 03:23:31 ahhh okk 03:23:38 Hello Thomas =) 03:24:42 Hello 03:27:25 superflit [~superflit@71-208-220-16.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:30 -!- sty [~quassel@bas2-toronto61-2925399486.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:27:52 ((I'm still looking at all this info =) )) 03:28:30 Zhivago: I think he needs to get recursion before he gets tail-calls, but that may be just me 03:28:47 -!- gko [~gko@42-73-208-110.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:29:05 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.3.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:29:22 *knob* thinks tail-call would be an awesome name for a cool car 03:30:28 yeah, at least then you know you won't blow your stack 03:30:44 -!- lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 03:31:31 Wow... I think it clicked. So, on my original pastebin (pastebin.com/UihFgZMF), it would be like writing (defun my-length (list)...etc four times... until the list gets to NIL 03:31:49 yep 03:31:56 Then, as Zhivago said, step back the 4 steps 03:31:58 ahhhhhhh 03:31:59 wow 03:32:15 when it gets to NIL you return 0 and each time you step back, you add 1 03:32:22 I'm so freaking happy I got this. I have been looking at this since yesterday =D 03:32:30 Yes! And that 1, from the 1+ 03:32:35 gko [~gko@42-73-208-110.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:47 then THAT "copy/paste" is done with, and on to the next one... 03:33:23 so "list" gets mangled all the way to the bottom 03:33:26 awesome 03:33:36 Thank you very much everyone... this has been... uff... awesome 03:33:50 I'm checking out SICP now. 03:34:31 oh, one more clarification: cdr doesn't actually modify anything, it just points you a bit farther into the list (the whole original list is still there) 03:34:58 just like (1+ 2) doesn't modify 2 to be 3 03:35:21 That clarification is worth a LOT. I was headed down the wrong impression 03:35:47 So list is 'original' all the time... it's just that we're moving along "into" it 03:35:50 cool 03:37:14 Oh wow... SICP is the Knuth book? The one he sends out checks if you find an error? 03:37:58 knob: No, that is The Art of Computer Programming (TAOCP) 03:38:12 Ahh.. ok. =) 03:38:31 knob: SICP was originally written by Abelson and Sussman from MIT. 03:38:51 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125900 03:38:59 good info 03:40:15 knob: there's one without lists. It's not a very useful function, but maybe you can see how each recursive call binds the argument to a different value 03:40:59 just typed it in... 03:41:18 starting to play with... and messing up CLISP already.. lol little by little =) 03:41:30 I'm going to trace this one too... that was helpful 03:41:33 (>= A B) is true if A is greater than or equal to B 03:41:53 and 1- is a function that subtracts one from its argument 03:46:45 still looking/studying =) 03:51:25 -!- knob [~knob@66.50.244.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:58:42 Cloud_ [~cbolano@187.193.244.127] has joined #lisp 03:59:14 scombinator [~user@cs-gw-private.otago.ac.nz] has joined #lisp 03:59:18 Hello 03:59:22 -!- Cloud__ [~cbolano@189.227.234.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:59:38 Can anyone help me get a useful backtrace out of SLIME with SBCL? 03:59:45 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:00:44 I always get the same backtrace no matter what the error is, and it is never very useful 04:01:44 -!- scombinator [~user@cs-gw-private.otago.ac.nz] has left #lisp 04:05:02 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5DE8C452.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:06:13 -!- p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:06:18 p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has joined #lisp 04:06:31 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.12.24] has joined #lisp 04:07:08 el-maxo [~max@p5DE8D801.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:25 -!- cerebral_monkey [~berkley@fl-184-1-93-113.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:15:15 -!- stratobacker [~user@c-98-202-137-87.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:17:49 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:35:31 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:35:50 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 04:36:37 marsell [~marsell@maslip.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:13 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has joined #lisp 04:40:45 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.54.87] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 04:41:25 -!- marsell [~marsell@maslip.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:41:28 coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-230-13.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:28 -!- coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-230-13.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:41:28 coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 04:42:09 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:42:22 -!- kdas_ [kdas@nat/redhat/x-rwcfcnmlalklumvv] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:45:33 psilord2 [~psilord@76.201.144.59] has joined #lisp 04:45:33 -!- akovalenko [~anton@95.72.168.38] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:45:38 -!- psilord2 [~psilord@76.201.144.59] has left #lisp 04:46:01 akovalenko [~anton@95.72.175.8] has joined #lisp 04:48:08 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:49:59 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:40 -!- p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:51:08 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-222-161.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:46 p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has joined #lisp 04:53:44 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:57:04 evening 05:01:49 Evening. 05:03:39 -!- beslyrus [~Brucio-12@adsl-99-35-53-209.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:03:56 nostoi [~nostoi@118.Red-83-50-3.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:15 -!- csdserver [~csdserver@unaffiliated/csddesk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:10:54 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:10:54 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@118.Red-83-50-3.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 05:11:42 csdserver [~csdserver@76.177.111.55] has joined #lisp 05:12:04 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p4FE314C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:49 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 05:15:59 -!- sacho [~sacho@90-154-148-222.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:23:58 hey gigamonkey, how's toot coming along? 05:24:42 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:24:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-12.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:27:29 kdas_ [kdas@nat/redhat/x-ozloibmnlhbnwcbo] has joined #lisp 05:27:38 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-90.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:28:04 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-90.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:28:40 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-208-220-16.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:31:25 superflit [~superflit@174-16-47-177.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:14 akovalen` [~anton@95.72.175.8] has joined #lisp 05:32:40 -!- akovalenko [~anton@95.72.175.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:34:52 slyrus: pretty well. 05:35:20 I've started actually building some simple websites on top of Whistle, which sits on top of Toot, and that's shaking some things out. 05:37:31 is there any lisp with a readline in their repl that has history? 05:39:17 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@69.166.21.48] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 05:39:56 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 05:40:08 jaimef: clisp 05:40:45 jaimef: Slime keeps a history. 05:41:30 or: rlwrap sbcl in a terminal. 05:46:58 gigamonkey: sounds encouraging. code released yet? 05:48:32 https://github.com/gigamonkey/toot https://github.com/gigamonkey/whistle 05:50:32 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:50:54 m801 [~user@ip68-7-188-238.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:28 -!- wccoder [~wccoder@S01060026f3c6bad7.no.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:56:00 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p4FE314C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:57:32 gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 05:59:57 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 05:59:57 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:00:19 jaimef: or just install that alternat repl that I forget the name of into the lisp of your choice 06:00:33 gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 06:01:19 rlwrap -q "\"" sbcl 06:01:21 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:01:21 :) 06:02:01 Ralith: I was also trying to remember the name of that. I've never tried it because it claims to be experimental. 06:03:01 I'm of the opinion it's just as easy to use Slime, whether locally or remotely. 06:03:36 slyrus: What parabolize said. Though it's still rough enough that there are no guarantees that it is working at any given moment though I try to to check in stuff that I know is busted. 06:04:33 Is there any way to programatically tell whether a symbol which is fboundp and whose symbol-function is a generic function was defined as a :reader of some defclass? 06:04:50 gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 06:05:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:05:30 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:05:49 gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 06:07:52 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-48-53.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:07:52 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:08:52 gigamonkey: check if it's a generic function, get the gf's methods, look at the methods' class and method-specializers. 06:11:19 cool, thanks gigamonkey. 06:13:23 pkhuong: though there's no particular difference, from that point of view, between a gf defined due to a :reader and any gf that takes a single argument and happens to have methods specializing that argument on various classes. 06:17:29 gigamonkey: look at the methods' class. 06:23:31 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:24:07 gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 06:24:50 aww, man. what happened to the third eclm video on blip.tv? I finally got the kids to bed and was all excited as hell to watch it. 06:24:51 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:25:02 -!- kdas_ is now known as kushal 06:25:14 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-ozloibmnlhbnwcbo] has quit [Changing host] 06:25:14 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:25:26 gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 06:26:32 -!- ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:26:33 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:26:56 gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 06:27:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-111-231.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:27:27 ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has joined #lisp 06:27:28 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:27:55 gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 06:28:36 pkhuong: Ah, is it different? (I haven't yet figured out the MOPery necessary to do everything you said.) 06:28:36 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:28:54 gigamonkey: on SBCL it is. 06:28:57 gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 06:29:05 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 06:29:55 Okay, cool. Thansk. 06:29:56 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:29:59 Goodnight all. 06:30:18 gigamonkey, good night :) 06:30:27 gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 06:31:56 -!- chp [~chp@c-68-45-180-238.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:31:57 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:37:22 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-10-10.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: Eish] 06:40:10 -!- pspace [~andrew@adsl-75-10-149-144.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:41:48 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:42:46 jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-92.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:43:23 gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 06:47:43 -!- ThomasH [468228d8@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 06:50:46 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:55:26 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:59:55 -!- ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:00:31 ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has joined #lisp 07:01:15 -!- ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:01:42 ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has joined #lisp 07:03:15 -!- pnathan [~Adium@98.145.116.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:03:15 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:04:13 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.12.24] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:06:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-12.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:07:58 chenbing [~user@125.118.7.72] has joined #lisp 07:09:11 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:10:31 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:10:43 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-012-176.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:58 -!- BrianRice [~water@174-31-148-97.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: BrianRice] 07:12:16 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-92.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:18:18 BrianRice [~water@174-31-148-97.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:06 typo [557a1793@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.122.23.147] has joined #lisp 07:20:04 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007013.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 07:21:39 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 07:24:38 -!- typo [557a1793@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.122.23.147] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:24:47 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:24:56 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-193.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:26:33 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:26:39 -!- easyE [OUFtfSXT8a@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:29:39 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-48-24.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:51 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007013.public.telering.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:33:20 function #'with-open-file has a first argument which point to a Stream 'str .since 'srt already defined with keyword ":direct" & ":if-exists",why #'with-open-file should redifine these two keyword parameters ? 07:33:43 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 07:38:48 H4ns [5b3d4147@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.65.71] has joined #lisp 07:40:11 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-255-43.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:45:58 chenbing: I'm not sure I totally understand your question, but with-open-file is a macro, i.e. using an unwind-protected close 07:47:27 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007013.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 07:48:45 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:49:05 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 07:49:17 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 07:50:07 -!- gko [~gko@42-73-208-110.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:50:49 phadthai: with stream 'str we indicate the direct and if-exists,but we have to redefine both keywords parameters again ,especially when (with-open-file str ) where 'str is the first variable. 07:52:55 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007013.public.telering.at] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:53:21 gko [~gko@42-73-208-110.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:59 an implementation should ensure that every argument be only evaluated once, and from left to right, as well as make sure to backup str such that it can really be closed, and will need to use gensym and let for that 07:56:41 but again I'm unfortunately unsure if that answers your question :( 07:58:43 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 07:59:14 -!- hydo [~cmoore@c-71-227-138-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:01:31 here comes the codes,http://paste.lisp.org/display/125903 08:02:56 chenbing: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm - also, are you reading other people's code at all? 08:03:33 -!- scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:03:40 scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has joined #lisp 08:04:50 oh... with-open-file will already open the file for you, indeed 08:06:11 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.111.128] has joined #lisp 08:06:47 chenbing: when you are unsure about how a function is typically called, try google codesearch: http://google.com/codesearch#search/&q=with-open-file%20file:.*%5C.lisp$&type=cs 08:07:16 H4ns: I haven't ,am a niebie reading books.I'll then 08:11:34 chenbing: I already told you to read CLHS. 08:11:44 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:11:52 as a reference to learn about the operators you have doubts about. 08:12:00 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 08:13:32 chenbing: configure your emacs so that M-x common-lisp-hyperspec RET with-open-file RET opens the browser to the right page. 08:18:16 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:18:16 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:19:22 pjb: thank you 08:20:17 insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 08:21:08 chenbing: also, put (global-set-key (kbd "C-h y") (function common-lisp-hyperspec)) in your ~/.emacs, so that you can just type C-h y with-open-file RET 08:26:59 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.207.97] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 08:27:33 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:28:15 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-102-215.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:28:25 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dirgkzynswlvifss] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:31:01 -!- Cloud_ [~cbolano@187.193.244.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:32:18 dacoda [~user@gate.cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:34:30 e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-obvvursqibztwjpw] has joined #lisp 08:35:59 anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has joined #lisp 08:37:17 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 08:46:26 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:46:42 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:46:55 GK0199 [~qw1478@rrcs-24-43-27-201.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:49:18 -!- GK0199 [~qw1478@rrcs-24-43-27-201.west.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 08:53:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:55:35 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:57:36 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:58:31 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:59:27 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:00:43 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 09:01:49 gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:06:48 -!- gko [~gko@42-73-208-110.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:07:57 Is there a way to _download_ the ECLM 2011 videos from blip.tv for later viewing? 09:09:06 -!- chenbing [~user@125.118.7.72] has left #lisp 09:09:18 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 09:12:22 chenbing [~user@125.118.7.72] has joined #lisp 09:13:13 gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 09:16:21 never mind, got it 09:21:25 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-9-66.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:22:16 easyE [p6J93NaCeM@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 09:28:44 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-lsbrzexcyheowbva] has joined #lisp 09:29:00 -!- msponge [~msponge@31-35-129.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: msponge] 09:30:09 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-202-80.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 09:39:46 DamienCassou [~cassou@2001:638:807:20d:7a84:3cff:fe05:3a9d] has joined #lisp 09:39:49 hi 09:40:52 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 09:42:00 is there any way to plug some code after setq? I mean it in the same as it is possible for CLOS's slots 09:43:16 DamienCassou: you mean setf? 09:43:22 Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-10-10.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:43:23 yes 09:44:15 DamienCassou: as far as i understand you - the answer is yes, too ;) 09:44:38 could you please point me to the documentation? 09:45:59 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:46:15 i only use the ansicl-info-files there is a chapter about setf, psetf (Macro) 09:46:44 (chapter 5 Data and Control Flow -> Dictionary -> setf,psetf) 09:46:57 trebor_dki: thank you 09:47:35 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:47:37 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 09:49:00 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-177-65-14.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:49:21 FYI: The converter to make ansiCL-info-files is available from `http://purl.org/harder/dpans.html 09:49:56 *trebor_dki* afk 09:50:03 DamienCassou: there is no way to plug into setq on a plain variable 09:50:28 H4ns: but it's possible with setf right? 09:50:36 DamienCassou: for a plain variable, no. 09:50:42 oh :-( 09:50:51 only for slots? 09:51:11 -!- guaqua_ is now known as guaqua 09:51:19 DamienCassou: you can write all sorts of setf expanders, just not for plain variables. 09:52:10 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:53:21 H4ns: my idea is to define a actWhen macro that takes a condition and a body, and evaluates its body as soon as its condition becomes true. 09:54:45 DamienCassou: i understand. you can't get triggers for arbitrary variable changes, though. 09:56:14 so it's not possible to understand such kind of reactive programming in common lisp? 09:56:17 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:57:01 DamienCassou: you can write yourself such an environment in common lisp, but it is not possible just by hooking into variable changes. 09:57:05 ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:18 H4ns: thanks 09:57:43 DamienCassou: one way is to use clos and monitor only slot changes. if you want to do it for plain variables, you need a code walker that finds all variable accesses and sets up the triggering. 09:58:15 schme [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:58:15 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 09:58:15 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 09:59:01 DamienCassou: maybe you could think about the performance implications for such a system a bit. that will make you understand why there are no provisions for this in common lisp as it is. 09:59:41 H4ns: I thought about it, don't worry. I'm just illustrating some meta programming facilities for my lecture 10:01:44 DamienCassou: i don't worry at all. i just sense that you are not thinking very deeply. 10:02:21 ehu [~ehuels@109.38.112.96] has joined #lisp 10:02:40 DamienCassou: explain to me how a compiler would be able to generate fast code when every variable access could potentially trigger calling arbitrary hook functions. 10:02:58 DamienCassou: in that world, would every variable have a "hooks" shadow variable? 10:03:08 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:03:17 DamienCassou: would every variable access result in another access to a global hook registry? 10:03:27 DamienCassou: how would the garbage collector deal with the hooks? 10:03:34 schme [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:03:34 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 10:03:34 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 10:03:42 -!- daniel__2 [~daniel@p5B326C84.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:04:02 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:04:11 daniel [~daniel@p508295DF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:31 DamienCassou: as i said, you can implement such a scheme yourself. it should be very obvious that it can't be standard in a language that is designed to be useable for writing fast programs, though. 10:07:07 H4ns: a C++ programmer could ask you: "explain to me how a compiler would be able to generate fast code when every method call requires looking for all possible pieces of code that should be executed" 10:08:04 DamienCassou: i know how function dispatch in c++ works, but you are trying to add the same sort of overhead to any variable access. 10:08:29 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:08:43 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:09:03 DamienCassou: imagine you have an array of a million integers, would you also have a million hook functions? 10:09:04 and not all function dispatch in C++ is virtual 10:09:10 xan_ [~xan@75.Red-95-122-109.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:25 H4ns: I just mean that it's not because I can't or you can't see any fast way to do something that none exists. Please have worked on optimizations for years 10:10:07 Actually, there's an easy way to do it quite fast if you have a run-time compiler... 10:10:15 DamienCassou: right. common lisp does not have it, though. 10:10:57 pjb: that's what i say. you can implement such a scheme, but it will have significant overhead. 10:11:16 *p_l* doesn't get the C++ thing. C++ either calls the function directly, or calls the function under offset (Y-sizeof(void))+X*sizeof(ent_s) ... 10:11:20 H4ns: I think your "you are not thinking very deeply" what a bit rude 10:11:35 I mean, with no run-time overhead. 10:11:49 Soulman [~knute@175.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:11:50 DamienCassou: sorry. 10:11:55 H4ns: :-) 10:13:15 I guess that for the purpose of my lecture I could define mySetf that checks all conditions 10:13:37 There was a paper about a system where the objects had specific methods compiled at runtime, therefore taking advantage of the object position in memory, the methods could use relative short addressing and be faster than a normal system, event counting the runtime compilation. 10:17:52 DamienCassou: mySetf is not very meta, if you ask me. 10:18:23 H4ns: yeap, you are right 10:19:08 pjb: attila_lendvai and H4ns talked about your reader implementation and they think it could help me for my slides dsl 10:19:25 Probably :-) 10:19:47 pjb: the idea of this DSL is to define slides which contains common lisp code using common lisp. And your reader could help me use s-expressions instead of strings to get formatting right 10:20:31 Indeed. Somebody else already implemented with it an indentation preserving reader with it. 10:21:03 pjb: I thought it was already indentation preserving. How is your reader different from the standard reader then? 10:21:13 It is not. 10:21:22 It implements strictly the standard. 10:22:02 Well, it has a hook to intepret the tokens, so that you can avoid interning symbols. I should design a public interface and write a CDR for it thought. 10:22:20 pjb: ok. Where can I find this indentation preserving reader please? 10:23:00 I'm not sure. Was it Levente Mészáros who did it? 10:24:20 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:24:21 DamienCassou: I think it's at http://dwim.hu/ 10:24:46 mdh`` [~user@cpe-98-155-87-40.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:24:51 Soulman1 [~knute@175.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:25:05 -!- H4ns [5b3d4147@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.65.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:25:17 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.187.139] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:25:32 PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@cpe-74-76-135-40.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:25:33 -!- Soulman [~knute@175.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:25:33 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@cpe-74-76-135-40.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:25:33 PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 10:25:33 tarmil [~user@business-178-48-18-229.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:25:42 -!- Soulman1 is now known as Soulman 10:25:43 |3b|` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:26:15 -!- Harag [~phil@iburst-41-213-10-10.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:26:20 pjb: do you the name of his reader? 10:26:23 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@cpe-74-64-109-53.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:26:44 *attila_lendvai* is looking for it 10:26:49 -!- |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:26:55 -!- duomo [~duomo@cpe-69-204-170-230.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:26:55 -!- mdh` [~user@cpe-98-155-87-40.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:26:55 hu.dwim.reader seems to be only pjb's reader 10:27:14 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:27:18 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-lsbrzexcyheowbva] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:28:21 this is the repo history though: http://dwim.hu/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=HEAD%20hu.dwim.reader;a=summary 10:29:42 attila_lendvai: thanks. 10:29:42 -!- superflit [~superflit@174-16-47-177.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:31:38 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@cpe-74-64-109-53.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:32:48 don't know, it's convoluted. but hu.dwim.presentation has some code somewhere to render fancy lisp, presumably preserving the original indentation 10:33:00 it's too much factored out and I can't find it right now 10:33:41 -!- akovalen` is now known as akovalenko 10:34:22 the integration code is in hu.dwim.presentation/integration/reader.lisp 10:35:10 apparently source-text:source-read has a preserve-whitespace-p, but I think that's also in pjb's version, no? 10:35:45 -!- ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:36:30 *attila_lendvai* can't check because the original wasn't in a source control, so it's all under levy's name 10:38:48 Harag [~phil@wbs-196-2-108-115.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:40:35 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.16] has joined #lisp 10:41:49 pjb: it's true, in your version there is read-preserving-whitespace function 10:43:44 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:03 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:44:06 nikodemus_ [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:44:36 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:48:13 o/ 10:49:20 DamienCassou: clhs it, it's not what you think it is. 10:49:41 DamienCassou: to remember the spaces, you need to use file-position between each token. 10:50:33 pjb: ok :-(. Thanks anyway 10:54:16 -!- csdserver [~csdserver@76.177.111.55] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:56:27 superflit [~superflit@174-16-47-177.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:32 H4ns [5b3d41f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.65.246] has joined #lisp 10:57:46 csdserver [~csdserver@CPE-76-177-111-55.natcky.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:00:52 DamienCassou: you may consider dropping levy a concise mail listing your assumptions and asking for guidance. I may be wrong about the whitespace preserving stuff, but it does render fancy lisp forms (except that the filesystem under dwim.hu is corrupted again and it crashes the lisp vm) 11:02:34 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ledyohxwnbclefom] has joined #lisp 11:03:18 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@server.199.79.itcsa.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 11:04:32 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:08 -!- knobo [~bohmer@92.80-202-64.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:07:12 -!- waveman [~tim@124.170.43.134] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:07:43 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-202-80.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:08:14 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:13:29 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.16] has joined #lisp 11:21:07 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:21:09 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:21:26 gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 11:24:34 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:24:54 Anyone had any experience running SBCL inside a third party debugger? 11:24:55 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:24:55 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:25:05 (intended for C) 11:25:22 gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 11:25:39 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-sxlzleaveczduhbe] has joined #lisp 11:25:39 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-sxlzleaveczduhbe] has quit [Changing host] 11:25:39 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:25:42 Ralith: plenty 11:25:44 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 11:25:49 gdb, specifically 11:25:49 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:26:21 gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 11:28:24 I'm trying to use an OpenGL debugger, which appears to be implemented on top of GDB 11:28:24 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:28:47 my goal is to have SLIME attached to swank running on the debugged SBCL, and to then be able to use SLIME as normal 11:29:22 however, the swank port doesn't seem to be opening when launched by the debugger 11:29:56 jaimef: linedit for sbcl also has history, linedit is a bit nicer than rlwrap 11:30:15 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:31:56 Ralith: have you tried running the debugger and sbcl in a separate terminal, and use (swank:create-server :port 4005) explictily? 11:32:02 Ralith: not sure if my experience is of much help then. mostly when i use gdb it's because SBCL is dead in the water and i'm doing a post-mortem 11:32:20 H4ns: that's what I'm doingwasn't aware there was another way 11:32:26 H4ns: but i do have one golden tip for you: build with :ud2-breakpoints 11:32:47 nikodemus: i guess you meant ralith 11:32:59 oops, yes. Ralith 11:33:10 otherwise SBCL uses SIGTRAP for things like type-errors, which confuses the hell out of GDB as it wants to use it for its own breakpoints 11:33:29 -!- drdo [~drdo@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:33:38 ah, that's good to know 11:33:50 ie. echo "(lambda (f) (cons :ud2-breakpoints f))" > customize-target-features.lisp 11:34:05 thanks 11:34:10 I'm seeing a SIGUSR1 and segfault in the output log just from the start, which strikes me as odd 11:34:13 the segfault, anyway 11:34:32 Ralith: GC page protection causes lots of sigfaults 11:34:43 you should ignore them and pass them to sbcl's handlers 11:34:58 I thinkhopethat's being done by default 11:35:21 Ralith: info signals will tell you 11:35:35 I'm walled off from the actual gdb session, unfortunately :/ 11:35:59 ouch 11:36:17 you can put a breakpoint on unhandled_sigmemoryfault to catch memory faults outside sbcl's heap 11:36:43 handy for the next time I kill a C lib 11:37:04 (actually somewhat common) 11:38:22 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:38:41 the SIGUSR1 is generated to test if SA_NODEFER works properly 11:46:12 gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 11:46:48 A macro question: how do I do what dolist for example does but in this special case: (defmacro definer ((token tokens) &body body) `(progn ,@(loop for token in tokens.... but token should be whatever symbol is passed for the token argument? 11:48:21 el-max: wouldn't you better create a (let) form containing the token as local variable? 11:49:27 el-maxo: what do you want the expansion to be? 11:49:28 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:50:04 gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 11:51:09 well basically I want a macro, that defines a macro for every token. The defined macros body should be the body argument. 11:51:09 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:51:25 gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 11:51:44 el-maxo: could you show a small hand-expanded example in paste.lisp.org? 11:51:44 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:52:00 yeah 11:52:04 gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 11:55:55 first steps on the way to understand ``(foo ,,@) and friends... :) 11:57:10 -!- B`rendan [~Brendan_T@repo.parabolagnulinux.org] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 11:57:31 Brendan_T [~Brendan_T@repo.parabolagnulinux.org] has joined #lisp 11:58:20 attila_lendvai: is ,@) even legal? 11:59:06 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 11:59:06 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:59:27 gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 12:00:23 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:03:37 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:03:38 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:04:06 Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/+2P5I 12:04:09 gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 12:04:45 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:04:46 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:05:07 gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 12:05:46 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.16] has joined #lisp 12:05:46 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:06:07 gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 12:07:31 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:32 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:11:32 sacho [~sacho@92-247-208-87.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 12:15:55 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:05 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:16 Xach: so what do you think? 12:22:23 -!- DamienCassou [~cassou@2001:638:807:20d:7a84:3cff:fe05:3a9d] has left #lisp 12:23:34 el-maxo: one obvious error is that you don't return anything from your definer loop 12:23:49 el-maxo: maybe you want collect instead of do? 12:23:52 attila_lendvai: as I thought; that's not a valid expression :P 12:24:32 gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 12:25:42 xmaster [~xmaster@78.186.133.79] has joined #lisp 12:25:43 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:26:12 gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 12:27:35 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:27:35 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:30:26 H4ns: ok but the main question was how do get loop to use the variable token isntead of token as a literal 12:31:34 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 12:31:54 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 12:32:05 el-maxo: i don't really understand what you mean. in your macro, the macro argument "token" is never used because you establish a new variable "token" by the loop 12:32:33 el-maxo: but what do you want to achieve? xach asked you to provide a sample usage of the macro together with a sample, hand-crafted expansion 12:35:02 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-48-24.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:35:59 gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 12:36:07 S1am [~guest@eth-209.20-homell.natm.ru] has joined #lisp 12:36:22 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 12:36:22 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:36:43 gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 12:37:50 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:37:51 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:38:15 gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 12:38:39 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:38:40 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:41:03 Xach, H4ns: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125910#1 12:44:27 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125910#2 12:47:14 yes I did 12:47:59 hmm I've seen similar macro building macros for sgml/xml yet the approach I personally used was to write a symbol tree to string "compiler" function and then write a macro calling it so that conversion can be made at compile-time, which seemed simpler (just an idea you also could explore) 12:50:20 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 12:50:32 oudeis [~oudeis@82.80.128.199] has joined #lisp 12:52:20 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:54:21 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@82.80.128.199] has quit [Client Quit] 12:55:36 gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 12:55:36 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:19 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125910#3 12:56:19 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:56:36 i changed you syntax a bit so you need to figure it out yourself :) 12:56:41 so for litteral/static elements the compiler issued WRITE-STRING calls, and for non-sgml elements (i.e. embedded lisp forms in the symbols tree), FORMAT calls were issued 12:56:47 s/you/yours/ 12:59:17 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.59] has joined #lisp 12:59:53 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.59] has quit [Client Quit] 13:00:07 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.59] has joined #lisp 13:02:24 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.59] has quit [Client Quit] 13:03:41 -!- dacoda [~user@gate.cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:06:49 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:03 churib_home [~tg@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:05 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:13:17 -!- H4ns [5b3d41f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.65.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:13:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:14:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.49.245] has joined #lisp 13:14:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.49.245] has quit [Changing host] 13:14:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:15:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-111-231.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:17:04 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:21:05 fmeyer [~fmeyer@201.87.5.32.user.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 13:25:38 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 13:29:09 capitaomorte_` [~user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 13:29:11 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.243.29.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 13:29:28 -!- Kovensky [kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:31:12 -!- capitaomorte_` [~user@mail2.siscog.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:33:31 capitaomorte [~user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 13:35:19 antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-cowmnnnoexfxlvhw] has joined #lisp 13:35:28 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.243.29.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:36:15 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has joined #lisp 13:37:33 H4ns [5ce7cdf1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.231.205.241] has joined #lisp 13:40:10 Kovensky [kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:40:12 msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has joined #lisp 13:41:25 *Xach* feels excitement regarding Lisp 13:42:08 -!- capitaomorte [~user@mail2.siscog.pt] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:43:09 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-181-128.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 13:43:26 pon1980 [~pon@195-67-88-105.customer.telia.com] has joined #lisp 13:43:38 Xach: any special reason? 13:44:05 what is this buoyant emotion borne of? 13:45:05 Just a general crackling in the air! 13:45:24 I wish there was a Lisp meeting on Saturday. 13:45:39 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@201.87.5.32.user.ajato.com.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:48:04 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:18 -!- churib_home [~tg@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 13:49:04 Geography is a pain in the ass! 13:49:21 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:49:21 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 13:49:44 and there's so much of it! 13:49:59 Agreed. If tokyo was next to Grenoble I would go to ILC 2012 13:50:02 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 13:50:06 fmeyer [~fmeyer@201.87.5.32.user.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 13:51:25 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:49 How about a plan for all Lisp hackers to move to New Hampshire? 13:51:55 It is a pretty good place. 13:52:12 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.243.29.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 13:53:26 If you find a job for me there and convince the US that I am perfect for the job, then why not? After my PhD that is :) 13:53:33 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-111-231.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:54:46 Xach: maybe we should organize a sharplispers pub-night on skype or other less keyboard-oriented medium 13:55:29 -!- msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has quit [Quit: msponge] 13:55:40 fridim [~fridim@dafuckingbox.fridim.org] has joined #lisp 13:55:42 hi 13:56:22 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@201.87.5.32.user.ajato.com.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:56:30 hi fridim 13:58:01 it's all about the keyboards 13:58:07 I miss the #lisp eurovision song contest parties 14:00:01 joaot` [~user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 14:00:50 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:23 fmeyer [~fmeyer@201.87.5.32.user.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 14:03:49 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:04:02 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:04:45 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:05:11 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-209-2-236-73.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 14:05:21 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:07:10 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@201.87.5.32.user.ajato.com.br] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:07:22 Kryztof: if you're writing into irc you can't code while lifting your pint... 14:07:25 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:07:39 so clearly a voicecomm system is indicated 14:08:52 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:09:00 fmeyer [~fmeyer@201.87.5.32.user.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 14:10:22 *Neronus* thinks that the :full keyword of sb-ext:gc should be explained ala "when full is not NIL, then all generations will be cleaned" 14:10:59 Neronus: please submit a patch that improves the docstring 14:11:30 deech [~user@71-11-140-18.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:11:57 yes sir :) 14:12:00 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 14:12:03 \o/ 14:12:24 Hi all, is there a way to develop in CL so that data structures are immutable by default? 14:12:28 via launchpad? 14:12:51 deech: you can define classes that have no writer methods by default .... is that what you mean? 14:12:55 Neronus: that's probably idea 14:13:01 but sbcl-devel is fine too 14:13:05 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:13:53 flip214: I meant more in the vein of Clojure and even Haskell. It seems to be the best base on which to write concurrent programs. 14:14:00 deech: if you're asking is there a global switch you can flip, no. but see eg :read-only option for defstruct slots 14:14:31 deech: just don't use SETF and you'll be fine 14:14:45 deech: side-effects are always available in CL. restricing yourself to a subset without them is a matter of ... not using the parts with side-effects 14:15:36 like distinguishing remove and delete 14:15:37 Well, there's another part to that; do the compiler and runtime do anything useful wrt concurrency if you don't use side effects as a matter of policy? 14:15:43 nikodemus: Is the :read-only like the "final" keyword in Java. Note that in Java it's pretty much worthless because the "final" object itself can't be reassigned but it's slots can. 14:16:16 Xach: It immutable-by-default the compiler can make certain assumptions about your code. 14:16:32 deech: I'm talking about existing CL compilers. 14:16:52 Xach: Oh, ok. 14:16:54 Systems, even. 14:17:04 deech: (defstruct foo (bar nil :read-only t)) means that (setf (foo-bar x) t) will not work -- but obviously (make-foo :bar 42) will, because otherwise it would be pretty useless 14:17:44 oh, now i see what you mean 14:18:19 if you consider that worthless, then :read-only is equally worthless -- if you put a mutable object into a read-only slot it doesn't magically become immutable 14:18:38 Xach: Is the compiler able to detect side-effecting code? 14:19:26 deech: the other way around. the compiler basically has to assume that anything can have a side-effect unless it can prove otherwise 14:19:31 nikodemus: Ok cool. By worthless I only meant wrt immutability not CL itself. 14:19:46 deech: i didn't think you did :) 14:19:59 msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has joined #lisp 14:20:17 -!- joaot` [~user@mail2.siscog.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:21:06 Are there any non-trivial examples of concurrency in CL? Is the common mode then locks and mutexes? 14:21:21 -!- msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:21:37 CrazyEddy [~pensivene@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:21:42 deech: there are some things that are lockless ... IIRC the mailbox in sb-concurrency is 14:21:45 depends on your target implementation 14:21:56 msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has joined #lisp 14:22:16 locking is common in libraries because that's available everywhere 14:22:17 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@2.129.177.57] has joined #lisp 14:22:22 semaphores are common as well 14:22:43 some implementation provide things like CAS and ATOMIC-INCF 14:23:06 some provide higher-level APIs like mailboxes 14:23:23 sbcl, of course, provides all of the above :P 14:24:11 nikodemus: Ah neat and I notice someone wrote an STM implementation as well. I'm curious to see how they make atomic guarantees. 14:24:41 deech: re. the STM impl or things like ATOMIC-INCF and CAS? 14:24:58 duomo [~duomo@d90h144.public.simons-rock.edu] has joined #lisp 14:26:18 in SBCL ATOMIC-INCF implements modular arithmetic and uses (on x86oid arches) LOCK:XADD under the hood. CAS is generalized, but mostly uses LOCK:CMPXCHG under the hood -- on x86oids again 14:26:50 IIRC CL-STM just uses a lock 14:27:13 Cloud_ [~cbolano@187.193.244.127] has joined #lisp 14:27:27 ThomasH [46822acb@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 14:27:37 Greetings lispers 14:27:39 nikodemus: Didn't know about ATOMIC-INCF or CAS until you just mentioned it. They seem cool! 14:27:52 TDT [~user@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:28:13 I just got a lambda in my captcha, how the hell are you supposed to type that? 14:28:22 -!- madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 14:28:44 *ThomasH* waits for someone to kick one out using unicode. 14:28:52 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Threading 14:28:53 (code-char #x3bb) 14:29:01  14:29:02 Thanks Xach 14:29:03 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:10 and Kryztof 14:29:12 G'morning all. 14:30:04 in emacs, C-x 8 RET 3bb RET 14:30:10 Thanks folks, have a good day! 14:30:25 nikodemus: Thanks for the link! 14:30:43 -!- deech [~user@71-11-140-18.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has left #lisp 14:31:51 -!- Cloud_ [~cbolano@187.193.244.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:32:59 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.64] has joined #lisp 14:35:12 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.161.123] has joined #lisp 14:37:05 ThomasH: Interesting example, kinda makes sense. I can see why you used a class for this. So the idea is you create a process that remains open, and you can write to the streamto feed the process inputs, and read the process's output stream. 14:37:26 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-012-176.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:38:03 TDT: Yes, in the example I pasted, the process's output just gets printed to the *TERMINAL-IO* stream, so it usually shows up in the REPL. 14:38:29 TDT: If you need to process the output, you need to change some of the keyword arguments. 14:38:59 TDT: One other thing, if you're just going to be on SBCL, don't bother with the class. 14:40:06 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:40:50 ThomasH: yeah, this is only on sbcl. 14:42:50 TDT: The other thing to do is create a function like (write-command cmd-string cmd-stream) that will properly send the command to the process. Make it a generic function. Then, on the lisp side, you can either use a stream to a process or a stream to a batch file and the write-command function handles it correctly. 14:42:52 felideon [~user@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:46 joast [~rick@76.178.187.139] has joined #lisp 14:46:09 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:37 ThomasH: *nods* I wonder if a library has been written for this already..I mean, while not hard, I can see this being useful for others. 14:48:47 -!- easyE [p6J93NaCeM@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:48:48 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:49:04 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.161.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:49:41 TDT: It is a widely used approach, Ltk, gnuplot, etc. There is trivial-shell, but it doesn't quite do this. I initially intended on abstracting it into a library, but ran into a couple issues with generalizing it that made me decide to shelve it. 14:50:06 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-037-014.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:21 -!- oGMo [~rpav@66.219.59.103] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 14:50:35 oGMo_ [~rpav@66.219.59.103] has joined #lisp 14:50:36 Might be worth a revisit, because I've hashed through the process on LispWorks now and have a decent appreciation for connecting lisp with command programs. 14:51:05 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:51:26 I prototyped it using gnuplot and then found that the prompt of my target program, ANSYS, behaved differently in a fundamental way. 14:51:34 ThomasH: Yeah, if it's really hard to generalize it to the point it works on all systems, having just the easier ones first may still be worthwhile. 14:53:45 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.161.123] has joined #lisp 14:54:38 -!- oGMo_ is now known as oGMo 14:57:37 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-109.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 14:59:26 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.158] has joined #lisp 15:00:16 Cloud_ [~cbolano@187.193.244.127] has joined #lisp 15:01:58 pnathan [~Adium@98.145.116.190] has joined #lisp 15:06:27 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:10:24 -!- antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-cowmnnnoexfxlvhw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:11:27 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:31 easyE [YTKf2PWpnr@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:29 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-209-2-236-73.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:18:33 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:18:52 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:21:16 pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 15:23:25 fezghoul [~user@adsl-75-27-177-19.dsl.ksc2mo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:33 does anyone here know clips ? 15:27:08 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.161.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:27:27 Jeanne-Kamikaze: I don't think that's been a topic of conversation here in the recent past. 15:28:22 ircaa [~user@175.124.95.120] has joined #lisp 15:28:22 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 15:28:36 dlowe_lt [~dlowe@50-77-31-237-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:50 superflit_ [~superflit@174-16-47-177.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:54 -!- superflit [~superflit@174-16-47-177.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:28:55 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 15:31:39 Jeanne-Kamikaze: I have used it in the past but it was years ago and for a school project. If clips is not required LISA as a similar implemenation in common lisp http://lisa.sourceforge.net/ 15:31:51 s/as/is/ 15:31:58 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-134.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:32:14 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-134.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:32:43 bobbysmith007, would you know if it's possible / how to pattern match against the slots of a template in a function ? 15:33:19 markc [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has joined #lisp 15:33:27 hello. given a pathname how can I get both the filename and extension? I see pathname-name, pathname-type, but no pathname-filename or similar 15:33:30 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.207.97] has joined #lisp 15:34:44 Jeanne-Kamikaze: nope, paged too far out at this point. you already got all of my relevant knowledge on this topic :) sorry 15:34:58 alright thanks anyways 15:35:02 gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has joined #lisp 15:35:07 markc: You mean in a single string? 15:35:13 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.215.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:35:24 markc: pathname-name is the name. 15:35:29 P"/tmp/file.txt" => "file.txt" 15:35:29 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 15:35:36 Hello #lisp 15:35:42 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:36:05 markc: ah, FILE-NAMESTRING is one option. 15:36:30 that's it thanks 15:37:17 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.64] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:37:36 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 15:43:31 -!- xmaster [~xmaster@78.186.133.79] has left #lisp 15:43:40 What's a bigger sin, no documentation or incorrect documentation? 15:44:19 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:39 The latter. 15:44:57 incorrect documentation is the worst of all. it's like an application that seems to run perfectly, but which yields incorrect results... it'll take ages to discover. 15:45:23 Xach & madnificent : Agreed, just curious if anyone else felt the same. 15:46:21 -!- fezghoul [~user@adsl-75-27-177-19.dsl.ksc2mo.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 15:46:59 no documentation induces disappointment, incorrect documentation induces rage 15:47:36 *ThomasH* felt rage yesterday, it is residing now that the issue is being corrected. 15:47:47 *madnificent* was a bit scared that it was a rhetorical question for a previously held argument. 15:48:33 bobbysmith007: thanks for your nonregular-expressions post, it saved my day! 15:49:22 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 15:49:53 -!- Cloud_ is now known as cesarbp 15:51:04 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:53:22 -!- ircaa [~user@175.124.95.120] has left #lisp 15:54:40 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 15:55:24 -!- e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-obvvursqibztwjpw] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:56:04 -!- dlowe_lt [~dlowe@50-77-31-237-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:56:31 was anyone bitten by slime-macroexpand-again bug? I just lost entire file content and all the unsaved changes. is there a way to recover? https://bugs.launchpad.net/slime/+bug/777405 15:58:55 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.207.97] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 15:59:18 inspired by nikodemus_ threading efforts, I looked at different multiprocessing APIs and discovered 'stack-groups' which seem to have been a lispm multithreading API. Does anybody have some pointers to how they were implemented? 16:00:38 TDT` [~user@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 16:00:42 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 16:00:52 tyson2 [~Ian@76-10-173-74.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:14 -!- pnathan [~Adium@98.145.116.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:01:36 markc: can't say that's ever happened to me. at least I learned a new command! (g in macro-expansion buffer) 16:02:05 I'd always just M-x s-m-1 in the source file manually, since I didn't know about -again 16:02:20 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@2.129.177.57] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:02:52 -!- TDT [~user@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:05:55 well, g is usually used to refresh display in buffers with generated content 16:06:14 i probably have used it withot being aware of it 16:08:18 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 9.0/20111109112850]] 16:09:05 -!- pon1980 [~pon@195-67-88-105.customer.telia.com] has left #lisp 16:09:27 (values) (ironically) doesn't return a value, are there any other expressions like this in Common Lisp? 16:09:59 Iceland_jack: values-list 16:10:10 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:20 thanks jdz :) 16:10:23 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@128.113.215.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:11:09 dlowe_lt [dlowe@nat/google/x-yakeekfbltqrwaxv] has joined #lisp 16:12:05 jdz: ah, good to know 16:12:13 sacho_ [~sacho@92-247-246-203.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 16:12:48 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.143.5] has joined #lisp 16:13:25 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.38.112.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:13:52 -!- easyE [YTKf2PWpnr@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:14:03 -!- H4ns [5ce7cdf1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.231.205.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:14:57 Iceland_jack: Why is that ironic? 16:15:38 ThomasH: I'm not getting into that discussion :) 16:15:43 -!- pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:15:49 -!- sacho [~sacho@92-247-208-87.spectrumnet.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:15:53 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:16:12 Iceland_jack: I'm not looking for an argument, just curious about what your expectation is. 16:16:16 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:16:18 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-037-014.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:16:24 H4ns [55b38e33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.179.142.51] has joined #lisp 16:16:31 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:16:38 H4ns: awesome!, glad it was useful for other than my own entertainment 16:16:44 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:16:48 ThomasH: Well VALUES being the only function I kn{o,e}w of that didn't return *any* values 16:16:55 an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected. 16:17:03 *jaimef* hunts for one working example of (defvar *db* (connect "disk:/root/DB/foo.db")) 16:17:06 bobbysmith007: very much so. i used it to process multi-line ruby string literals, worked perfectly. 16:17:08 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 16:17:24 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-109.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:18:39 Iceland_jack: I read an article or discussion somewhere recently about using (values) as the last form of a function definition so that you explicitly return nothing. It seemed to be desirable behavior, I didn't fully appreciate the discussion. 16:18:44 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 16:19:36 ThomasH: oh? do you remember when that would be desirable? 16:19:42 ThomasH: returning (values) is generally worse than returning nil. 16:19:50 (defun nihilism (&body everything) (values)) 16:20:37 H4ns: did you end up using the recursive-regex lib or just the cl-ppcre filter functions stuff ? 16:20:53 Hah! Iceland_jack, no, like I said, I didn't fully appreciate the argument. foom : There are some that think otherwise, I'm not prepared to argue the subject. 16:20:54 foom: some consider it helpful to make it explicit that the function is called for effect and doesn't return a boolean 16:21:16 bobbysmith007: just filter functions. i overlooked recursive-regexp, saving that for next time. 16:21:18 ThomasH: Fair enough :) 16:21:29 pkhuong: I would agree, except that no-values turns into nil when you try to use it. So it's not explicit in a useful way. 16:21:44 Also it's slower to use (values) than nil in SBCL. 16:21:47 foom: it's explicit for reading code and exploring at the REPL. 16:21:51 If you find that article again ThomasH, do send it to me :) 16:22:01 Iceland_jack: sure thing 16:22:07 foom: ... the difference is usually noise. 16:22:24 and if it matters, maybe you shouldn't be using a full call in the first place. 16:22:27 ... a couple of register loads slower, isn't it? 16:22:58 We're no longer monkeying the return address on x86oids, after all. 16:22:58 set a flag, xor cx, and a conditional move, I think? 16:23:12 pkhuong: Have to default the other arg-passing regs. 16:23:33 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:24:18 The worst thing about wrong documentation is that your code is littered with logic based on the documentation that you have to remember to correct once you figure out that it is wrong. 16:24:40 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.243.29.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:24:42 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:24:58 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.243.29.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 16:30:01 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 16:31:53 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:32:24 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:26 i like to use (values) for things called from the repl for their printed output 16:33:07 pkhuong: i was just looking at sb-locatives 16:33:32 yes? 16:33:53 pkhuong: if we could make it type-safe, can you think of a reason not to make it a contrib? 16:35:28 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-109.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:35:30 HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db5618f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:37 it's full of x86oidisms 16:37:26 not that bad, actually. 16:37:57 No assumption that MAKE-LISP-OBJ on a pointer is a reasonable thing to do outside of WITHOUT-GCING, is there? 16:38:11 no. 16:38:20 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:38:33 type safety would be hard though. A third argument that does type testing, I guess. 16:38:49 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db5618f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:39:10 make-lisp-obj is never a reasonable thing to do. now...%make-lisp-obj, that's a whole other story. :) 16:40:16 chp [~chp@c-68-45-180-238.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:44 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:45 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-134.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:42:03 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:42:14 pkhuong: i was thinking of generating a type-checking function and stuffing it into the locative 16:42:26 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-134.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:42:32 the call-site of MAKE-LOCATIVE should have all we need to know about the type 16:42:50 but that conses a lot ;) 16:43:21 we'll cache those functions and share them with clos slot typechecking :) 16:43:44 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.64] has joined #lisp 16:43:50 the macro can generate the type checking function. It won't close over anything. 16:44:05 pkhuong: exactly 16:44:18 I went with a multiple-value--based interface to make it easy to push things in preallocated vectors, but meh. 16:44:30 but it can still share the function with the rest of the word so we get only one typechecking function per type 16:44:36 ah 16:44:49 i'll keep thinking about this 16:45:55 it's just that locatives would make it possible to build other nice extensions -- like fairly general lazy evaluation support 16:46:19 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:48:34 if there was a nice way to also handle sb-ext:word-typed slots (!) 16:48:53 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:49:56 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-134.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:50:05 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-134.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:50:21 EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 16:51:45 McRibbit [~user@zaza10.ida.liu.se] has joined #lisp 16:52:52 I am using allegro with emacs. Is there any way to turn off the debugger? 16:54:07 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:23 and to stop the *background-interaction* buffer from popping up 16:54:29 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:54:30 McRibbit: I don't know, but I do know that allegro has both a good manual and a paid staff to help people with such questions. 16:54:53 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 16:55:03 There are a few allegro users here, too, but it isn't a frequent topic. 16:55:11 McRibbit: are you using ELI? 16:55:31 Qworkescence [~quad@184-96-79-161.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:33 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@184-96-79-161.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:55:33 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:56:11 yes 16:56:45 it's just that the default settings is in the way of coding 16:57:32 If I were you, I'd give their support a try. Just not very many allegro users here and even fewer who use eli. 16:58:13 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-181-128.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:58:24 McRibbit: i use slime with allegro, it works fairly well. 17:00:02 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@92-247-246-203.spectrumnet.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:00:33 H4ns: do you get a repl wnd slime-contribs modules or just a *lisp-interaction* buffer? 17:00:48 McRibbit: i get the full slime-repl 17:00:58 McRibbit: installed it through quicklisp. 17:01:13 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p4FE314C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:01 just install slime through quicklisp? no special settings? 17:02:26 McRibbit: (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper") will help 17:03:38 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-105-240.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:03:40 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 17:05:28 -!- duomo [~duomo@d90h144.public.simons-rock.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:06:14 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@ceesit01.nees.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 17:07:33 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:11 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 17:13:50 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 17:14:08 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p4FE314C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 17:15:45 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:16:42 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:16:49 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:19:29 jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-92.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:19:48 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 17:22:11 Xach: quicklisp-slime-helper is awesome, i never liked setting up slime, for some reason i disliked doing it. 17:22:37 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:25:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:30:09 -!- msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has quit [Quit: msponge] 17:30:20 -!- kami` is now known as kami 17:31:17 -!- superflit [~superflit@174-16-47-177.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:31:37 Xach: is there anybody except possibly a few die-hards working at Franz who use eli? 17:32:14 gigamonkey: I suspect it's another "if it ain't broke" situation. 17:32:15 (I remember Steve Haflich, back in 2003 or so, ranting about Lispers inability at PR, using as evidence the name "SLIME".) 17:32:48 Are there any docs for closer-mop other than AMOP? 17:32:51 Well, I can agree with that to a degree. Quicklisp is successful mostly because of the name. Who wants to use "mudballs"? 17:33:08 Don't even get me started on asdf-install. 17:33:14 very true 17:33:59 Yes. Good names (quicklisp) are good. And misleading names (asdf-install) are bad. But nonsense names seem to succeed or fail based on the quality of the thing named. 17:34:02 but hey, unattractive names are traditional. muddle became MDL because the original name was too ... honest? :) 17:34:20 (i spent a while reading the MDL manual yesterday, pointer much appreciated) 17:34:28 gigamonkey: I have a lot of ELI-using co-workers. 17:35:09 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:35:11 -!- gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:35:14 gigamonkey: I have only converted ~10 to SLIME yet. 17:35:45 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:35:51 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:36:15 TBNL was cleverly-named... and cleverly renamed. 17:36:47 BTW, when Nick Levine flashed his advance check in his talk yesterday, did anyone catch the amount. I thought it looked like $750 but that seemed pretty low. Did I miss a zero? 17:37:50 gigamonkey: you did not 17:38:28 sad, I suppose 17:38:56 Wow. Either O'Reilly has a very different method of setting their advances than Apress or they had very low expectations for how that book was going to sell. 17:39:33 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:05 -!- dlowe_lt [dlowe@nat/google/x-yakeekfbltqrwaxv] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:44:07 ignas [~ignas@85-206-22-190.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 17:44:57 nyquist [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 17:45:13 What book is that? 17:45:28 jewel: Lisp Outside the Box, never published. 17:45:55 You mean, to be published? 17:46:16 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.243.29.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:46:18 No. The author gave up (due to health problems) 17:46:48 msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has joined #lisp 17:46:51 -!- H4ns [55b38e33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.179.142.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:47:03 *Xach* once did something similar, the health issue was "sick of trying to write a book" 17:47:07 -!- tarmil [~user@business-178-48-18-229.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:48:30 Nick's talk was really depressing. 17:49:06 Xach: do you have any idea if your talk is going to be posted to blip.tv/eclm ? 17:49:14 Fade: I am under that impression. 17:49:41 *nyquist* thinks it is strange that lispworks editor lacks such simple a feature as paren completion, despite being so higly priced and having builtin prolog etc. 17:50:00 nyquist: What is paren completion? 17:50:16 I dunno if this was answered yesterday, but does lispworks have system threads, or is it green threads all the way down? 17:50:57 Xach: I mean something like paredit 17:51:13 gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:53 nyquist: I think that can be arranged, but I don't know the details. The LispWorks editor is an Emacs, so it can be extended to do it if it can't already. 17:52:30 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 17:52:43 Fade: Lispworks has proper SMP. 17:52:48 nyquist: The lispworks mailing list is also quite friendly, it's possible someone there could explain how to set it up. 17:54:40 luis: I was just curious because the talk given by jack harper seemed to be saying that LW didn't thread 17:55:33 Fade: it might have been added in 6.0, released in 2010 17:55:39 Fade: maybe he was talking about a longer timeframe 17:55:45 *nod* 17:56:41 aww.. luke gorrie's talk isn't on the blip site anymore. 17:56:50 ah well, guess I'll work instead. 17:57:14 superflit [~superflit@174-16-47-177.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:03 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.243.29.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:59:50 -!- nikodemus_ [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:00:04 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:01:04 -!- tyson2 [~Ian@76-10-173-74.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:02:54 Fade: Martin Simmons gave a presentation on LW's SMP support at ECLM 2009. And, what Xach said. 18:04:13 vervic [~vervic@178-191-177-78.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:04:47 situ [~quassel@223.191.92.48] has joined #lisp 18:06:32 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ledyohxwnbclefom] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:08:50 ... can I specialize a method on KEYWORD, or do I have to specialize on SYMBOL instead? 18:09:04 (Or just use a series of EQL-specializers?) 18:09:33 hmm, I'm trying to quickload cl-unicode but it fails http://paste.lisp.org/display/125918 18:09:54 nyef: keyword is not a system class 18:10:14 So, no? 18:10:17 Fair enough. 18:10:18 daimrod: what do you get from (ql:where-is-system "cl-ppcre")? 18:10:44 I think I need all of four specific keywords at this point, so EQL specialization shouldn't be too difficult. 18:10:51 daimrod: or better yet, (ql:where-is-system "cl-unicode") 18:11:33 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.244.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:11:49 Xach: oh my.. it uses an old version. 18:12:02 take that old thing out of the picture 18:13:50 H4ns [5b3d41f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.65.246] has joined #lisp 18:14:46 Hmmm. I'm having an urge to write a Coffee Script compiler in CL for embedding in Whistle. I think I'm going to let that urge pass. 18:14:46 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:56 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:15:31 AR: Lie down until it passes 18:15:46 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has joined #lisp 18:16:07 Well, you only have to actually lie down if you're contemplating inventing a new language. 18:16:15 Have you wrote any compiler before ? 18:16:21 I guess it's not normal for sbcl (32bit) to take 470MB after 2 hours of heavy threaded socket work ? 18:16:21 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 18:16:29 situ: Well, depends what you mean by compiler. 18:16:52 milanj: i think that will depend very much on the application. 18:16:53 nikodemus solve one leak in SB-BSD-SOCKETS:GET-PROTOCOL-BY-NAME yesterday but it looks there is something else ? 18:17:13 milanj: 470 doesn't seem like a whole lot to me without more context. 18:17:34 Xach, just simple zs3:delete-object stuff 18:17:50 ... and it's still growing 18:17:57 Hey, has anyone heard about what happened with the Irving Data Sensors gig? 18:18:04 Did anyone we know get it? 18:18:34 gigamonkey: Hmm, that doesn't ring a bell. was it posted to lispjobs? 18:18:49 I believe it was. 18:18:50 milanj: two hours of delete-object? 18:19:21 hah, don't ask, i need many of more (hours) 18:19:27 Xach: thank you. 18:19:29 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:20:34 daimrod: no problem 18:20:54 Er, here's a link to a mention on alu-discuss though I thought I saw it somewhere more prominent than that. http://web.archiveorange.com/archive/v/5zNjk0qWbIqxCcFDhfYc 18:20:55 *Xach* is glad he added ql:where-is-system 18:21:28 gigamonkey: ah, it was on lispjobs but didn't mention the employer directly 18:21:40 oh, it is "irvine" 18:21:47 i searched the page for "irving" 18:21:48 Ah. 18:21:55 Good thing I have copyeditors. 18:26:55 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:27:56 Okay, how do I get the function object for a setf function dynamically, i.e. the equivalent to this (eval `(function (setf ,sym))) without the EVAL? 18:28:15 dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-kzmcpayzlhjdbczw] has joined #lisp 18:28:45 (fdefinition `(setf ,sym)) 18:29:48 Thanks. I knew that was there somewhere but couldn't remember the name. 18:30:13 -!- situ [~quassel@223.191.92.48] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30:45 http://l1sp.org/pcl/fdefinition 18:31:04 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:31:06 Xach: any lisp projects named "Manifest" you know of. system-apropos says no. 18:31:17 gigamonkey: not that i know of 18:32:21 -!- vervic [~vervic@178-191-177-78.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: vervic] 18:32:45 -!- markc [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Quit: bye] 18:41:09 -!- McRibbit [~user@zaza10.ida.liu.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:42:41 nikodemus [~Nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:45:03 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.143.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:45:43 sacho [~sacho@46.10.5.219] has joined #lisp 18:46:29 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-255-43.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:28 There is now. 18:49:55 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 18:53:21 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 18:53:55 https://github.com/gigamonkey/manifest 18:55:39 I loaded it. Now what? 18:55:49 -!- gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:56:01 (start-server :handler (make-handler ) :port 8080) 18:56:12 Then hit http://localhost:8080/toot 18:56:30 Too many steps. 18:56:41 Yeah, well I just started yesterday. 18:57:57 rbancroft [~rumble@S0106000024ccf2b4.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:04 I get: There is no class named MANIFEST::STATIC-FILE-HANDLER 18:58:59 -!- akovalenko [~anton@95.72.175.8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:59:18 nonduality [~alex@chello084114039189.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 18:59:59 -!- ignas [~ignas@85-206-22-190.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:00:09 Whoops. My toot is perhaps a bit ahead of github. Hang on. 19:00:17 -!- dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-kzmcpayzlhjdbczw] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:00:17 sacho_ [~sacho@46.10.5.219] has joined #lisp 19:00:41 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.111.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:01:09 anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-48-206.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 19:01:29 does anybody work with clsql and db2? 19:01:54 sacho__ [~sacho@46.10.5.219] has joined #lisp 19:02:19 Xach: okay, if you update Toot things *should* work. 19:02:34 nonduality: i haven't heard anything from anyone using that combination. i more frequently hear about postgres or mysql or sqlite. 19:02:40 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.243.29.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:02:41 Oh, and I update Manifest and you can just say (start 8080) 19:03:01 -!- sacho [~sacho@46.10.5.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:03:40 -!- CaZe [~CaZe@unaffiliated/y354c] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:03:41 CaZe_ [~CaZe@unaffiliated/y354c] has joined #lisp 19:03:41 -!- CaZe_ is now known as CaZe 19:04:09 udzinari_ [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 19:04:12 should give an index of (list-all-packages) :) 19:04:17 err, / should 19:04:49 gigamonkey: cool. really highlights that i need to write more docstrings. 19:04:49 Indeed. 19:05:14 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@46.10.5.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:05:20 I'm planning on having a system where you can provide override docs and also provide more meaningful groupings. 19:05:39 Xach: sometimes you don't have a choice :) 19:05:49 Xach: yeah, that's basically why I wrote it. So I could see what I needed to doc in Toot. 19:06:16 gigamonkey: very cool. separation of conditions from other classes would be helpful to me. 19:06:27 -!- udzinari_ [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 19:06:36 Xach: i already thought that there might not be many ppl out there who use lisp with a db2 backend 19:06:38 Yeah. I though of that just haven't written the introspection to do that automatically. 19:07:04 nonduality: good luck with it! 19:07:16 may the gods be with me ... 19:07:55 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-109.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:08:10 -!- msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has quit [Quit: msponge] 19:08:11 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-109.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 19:08:15 CaZe_ [~CaZe@unaffiliated/y354c] has joined #lisp 19:08:16 -!- CaZe [~CaZe@unaffiliated/y354c] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:08:25 -!- CaZe_ is now known as CaZe 19:09:07 gigamonkey: Dunno if it's feasible, but might be nice to have (manifest:start) show the URL to visit, too. 19:12:17 *jaimef* ponders how you ask a question about which lisp has the most users/popularity without coming off as a troll question 19:12:40 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:12:43 haha 19:12:51 common lisp, of course :> 19:12:55 dlowe_lt [dlowe@nat/google/x-dzzkzpsedsnzaply] has joined #lisp 19:13:04 s/lisp/common lisp/g 19:13:14 jaimef: which common lisp? 19:13:17 jaimef: SBCL by far. 19:13:18 yes 19:13:20 -!- alanpearce [~alan@home.alanpearce.co.uk] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:13:20 -!- orangejuice [~orangejui@66.96.251.117] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:13:20 -!- qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:13:21 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:13:21 -!- cpape [~user@cpape.eu] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:13:21 -!- kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:13:21 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:13:21 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:13:21 -!- mal [~mal@www.wimmekes.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:13:21 -!- shachaf [~shachaf@204.109.63.130] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:13:21 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:13:21 -!- Bucciarati [~buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:13:21 -!- tvaalen [~r@67.217.170.35] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:13:21 -!- pokes [~pp@69.164.222.10] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:13:21 -!- adeht [void@common.lisp.su] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:13:21 -!- sshirokov [~sshirokov@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:13:24 -!- nikodemus [~Nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:13:25 shachaf [~shachaf@204.109.63.130] has joined #lisp 19:13:25 cpape [~user@cpape.eu] has joined #lisp 19:13:25 pokes [~pp@69.164.222.10] has joined #lisp 19:13:26 mal [~mal@www.wimmekes.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:28 tvaalen [~r@67.217.170.35] has joined #lisp 19:13:28 pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 19:13:30 kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 19:13:32 Bucciarati [~buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:33 jaimef: on this channel, the most popular implementation is SBCL 19:13:36 ok. I was using xemacs for years before I realized how behind the times it was compared to gnuemacs 19:13:37 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 19:13:37 gz` [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:13:41 alanpearce [~alan@home.alanpearce.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:13:42 that's however caused by various complex reasons 19:13:54 understood. not asking "which is better" 19:13:55 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 19:13:58 SBCL is, in general, the most popular. 19:13:58 qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has joined #lisp 19:14:03 ok 19:14:03 sshirokov [~sshirokov@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 19:14:03 _death [void@common.lisp.su] has joined #lisp 19:14:15 going to need to use linux it looks like 19:14:17 ahinki [~chatzilla@AAmiens-551-1-135-118.w86-207.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:14:26 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:27 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:14:36 jaimef: well, most people here use *nix in the first place, at least for deployment, so... 19:14:39 I've never quite understood why ccl isn't more popular, especially among people on the Mac. 19:14:47 CCL is pretty popular too. 19:14:48 asd files. need to fgure that out 19:14:58 CaZe_ [~CaZe@unaffiliated/y354c] has joined #lisp 19:14:59 ThomasH: I think it's pretty popular on Macs. It probably beats SBCL on windows :) 19:15:04 p_l: ahh yeah finding problems and hangs on netbsd 19:15:10 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.253.114.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 19:15:18 jaimef: I wrote a bit about how I start projects here: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html 19:15:30 Xach: thanks saw your tweets 19:15:35 I need to update it in light of ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ 19:15:45 The one about #RejectedPBSShows? 19:15:52 Nobody picked up the hashtag torch on that one :( 19:15:59 yeah I am using ql now 19:16:02 p_l: Yeah. I ended going with LispWorks on windows for 2 reasons. (1) Good OS support and (2) Easy GUIs. 19:16:08 orangejuice [~orangejui@66.96.251.117] has joined #lisp 19:16:18 ThomasH: If I had money for LW, I'd go for it too :D 19:16:32 -!- CaZe [~CaZe@unaffiliated/y354c] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:16:32 -!- CaZe_ is now known as CaZe 19:16:35 nice to see the options for choice 19:16:42 "Which implementation is most popular" changes as you narrow the context. 19:16:50 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 19:17:45 been a while since I have been excited about a language. 19:18:11 jaimef: CL fortunately is quite coherent compared to Scheme (or even Clojure, as that one is stil evolving) 19:18:44 yeah I took clojure seriously for the last year but the jvm is just too much a pita for me 19:19:05 Xach: update toot and manifest to see some of your wishes granted. 19:19:19 Also, now you can just run (start) and it will pick an unused port and tell you the URL to go to. 19:19:56 any lisp user groups that meetup in SFBay? 19:20:10 jaimef: There were some, but I haven't heard about activity lately. 19:20:15 Bay Area Lispniks IIRC 19:20:28 nikodemus [~Nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:20:36 gigamonkey and antifuchs are in the bay area, maybe they can start a meeting! 19:20:51 Hey, I started Bay Area Lispniks! 19:20:54 And let it die. :-( 19:21:04 There's a meetup now that periodically gets people together. 19:21:15 antifuchs and I can't even get together for beers between the two of us. 19:21:17 cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.207.226] has joined #lisp 19:21:27 You just need a better excuse. 19:21:34 we do! ): 19:22:20 Heh. I just exported the START symbol from MANIFEST and forgot to document it. 19:22:25 -!- nonduality [~alex@chello084114039189.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:23:01 I find that "it's a day ending in #\y" is typically a good excuse for some things. 19:24:03 Hmmm. Maybe I should sort that list of packages by percentage of symbols documented rather than alphabetically. 19:24:09 heh 19:24:12 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:24:33 Am I the only one getting horrid sound on the ECLM videos?... 19:24:56 The sound on Nick's talk wasn't great. But it was audible. 19:25:06 are there lisp conferences? 19:25:27 jaimef: yes. 19:25:30 jaimef: yes. For some reason, more in Europe than in USA, it seems ;) 19:25:31 Yes, audible, but I'm not sure I'm willing to watch this in these conditions :/ 19:26:04 Mine was probably way worse than Nick's. 19:26:08 audio-wise 19:26:37 Cloud_ [~cbolano@187.193.242.62] has joined #lisp 19:26:52 Well, my ears will bear the cost for that one. 19:27:15 Is there anyone using :argument-precedence-order with any sort of regularity? 19:27:34 duomo [~duomo@d90h144.public.simons-rock.edu] has joined #lisp 19:28:28 i think i've used it twice 19:28:38 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.207.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:28:57 *Xach* wonders about re-dubbing his video a la badlipreading 19:29:19 heh, that would be fun 19:29:42 could do it to make nick's talk more inspring :) 19:29:47 salli47 [~l.r.salli@109.52.19.59] has joined #lisp 19:29:51 inspiring, even 19:29:53 list! 19:30:29 pleas list ! 19:30:49 salli47: what's up? 19:31:10 ok 19:31:17 dl` [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 19:32:16 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:33:15 -!- salli47 [~l.r.salli@109.52.19.59] has left #lisp 19:33:22 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:33:24 Hexstream: I've used it once 19:33:31 Xach: is yours online? 19:34:19 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@201.87.5.32.user.ajato.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:34:19 -!- benny [~benny@i577A313E.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:34:37 madnificent: no. but feedback in person was along the lines of "nice talk! ...gee, you sure are quiet." 19:36:39 -!- xan_ [~xan@75.Red-95-122-109.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:38:44 i've heard people liked your talk, i would've liked to see it as well :) 19:39:17 -!- sacho__ [~sacho@46.10.5.219] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:39:17 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:40:04 Ok, so the only generic-function in CL that has an out-of-order argument-precedence-order is DOCUMENTATION... I almost wonder why they even bothered putting that feature in. Hysterical raisins again? 19:40:24 Better just put the arguments in order of specialisation in the first place... 19:40:31 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-109.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:40:39 msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has joined #lisp 19:40:40 There were a lot of features in CL that I never used and that I couldn't imagine using until I read keene and PCL. 19:42:07 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:42:13 Granted, there are a ton of features I didn't see the justification for initially and now use all the time, and likewise there are some features I thought were pretty nice initially but I realized they are much more fundamental and important than I first thought... But that :argument-precedence-order stuff... It just seems like needless complexity that nobody uses. 19:42:25 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:42:49 I can't imagine myself thinking: "Oh gosh, everything would be so perfect IF ONLY I could change the argument precedence order!!" 19:43:37 Hexstream: Until you need it. It can be more important to order the arguments by some external criteria and then specialize in a different order based on the logic of implementing the routines. 19:43:47 Hexstream: Changing argument precedence order? For methods? Yeah, I can kindof see a use for that... 19:43:49 Hexstream: the joys you get from having the interface be the implementation (: 19:44:12 Hexstream: i can imagine refactoring things and thinking that. aside from that, it seems to be just that both do the same thing, but they are different things. hence, it may be good that you can override the one which is inferred from the other. 19:44:21 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-109.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 19:44:27 I'd be interested to know how many gfs there are whose set of methods actually makes use of even the default argument precedence order. 19:44:39 nyef: You mean having methods with difference APOs under the same generic function? 19:45:03 Hexstream: I don't see the extra complexity. 19:45:11 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@AAmiens-551-1-135-118.w86-207.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928224103]] 19:45:25 pkhuong: For the MOP stuff. 19:45:44 Hexstream: For making sure an EMF comes out in the correct order? It's plausible, at least. 19:45:48 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-109.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:45:48 I'm making a new kind of generic function and I'll spend nonzero effort supporting this... 19:45:58 Much of the *MOP* is there for hysterical raisins. 19:46:01 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-109.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 19:46:41 pkhuong: Maybe, but it is or will be tremendously useful now and for the future. 19:47:02 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.111.128] has joined #lisp 19:48:06 madnificent: I don't understand what you're saying... What two things are you talking about? 19:48:31 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 19:49:15 Hexstream: the order in which you give the arguments when calling the generic function and the order of their precedence. 19:52:57 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 19:54:06 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:54:40 ahinki_ [~chatzilla@AAmiens-551-1-135-118.w86-207.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:55:22 ThomasH: The thing is, the argument precedence order pretty much has to be specified as part of the public interface, at least if users are allowed to specialize methods on the generic-function, so it's not just an implementation detail thing... 19:55:52 Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:59 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:03 -!- ahinki_ is now known as ahinki 19:57:19 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:58:59 -!- Cloud_ [~cbolano@187.193.242.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:59:48 Does this appeal to anyone? http://paste.lisp.org/display/125926 20:00:19 I never really liked all that dwim stuff 20:00:41 dlowe_lt: It doesn't have much to do with dwim... 20:00:52 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:01:19 It would be a bit like a new kind of "namespace". 20:02:04 Hexstream: I use it in a library that generates commands for another program. It greatly reduces confusion to keep the argument order, of the required arguments at least, identical between the lisp and the script. The method that I specify the precedence order on is not exported, but it makes maintenance easier to do this. Even if this method was exported, I still want the order the same. 20:02:24 -!- dlowe_lt [dlowe@nat/google/x-dzzkzpsedsnzaply] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:02:37 ThomasH: That sounds like a Valid use-case :) 20:02:38 schell [~schellsci@75-101-46-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:45 -!- schell [~schellsci@75-101-46-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has left #lisp 20:03:23 Hexstream: Excellent! I try to be careful not to use esoteric features just for the sake of using them. 20:03:52 -!- nikodemus [~Nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:04:14 -!- dl` [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:04:16 Sometimes you find out the feature is not really esoteric in the end ;) Well, depends on your definition of "esoteric" I guess. 20:04:42 dl` [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 20:04:51 -!- dl` is now known as dl 20:05:10 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-109.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:07:45 Hexstream: To your point, I initially did not specify the precedence order as a result of faulty logic. Incorrect output from the method quickly corrected my logic. While diagnosing the problem, I was very glad to discover the ability to specify the order. 20:10:20 -!- hugod [~hugod@76.65.142.49] has quit [Quit: hugod] 20:10:22 Hexstream: a comment stating what you were aiming for could've been nice :) 20:11:10 Hexstream: I think phased generic functions look interesting. I've been intrigued by the idea of a 'meta-object lisp' where every function is generic and everything is an object. Actually wrote some preliminary thoughts down, but not much more. I think it could easily be developed on top of CL and then optimized for performance later. 20:11:50 ... Why am I reminded of something called "slate"? 20:12:14 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:12:25 nyef: Is that the library with the 'new' constructor? 20:12:29 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:12:33 madnificent: You mean use-cases and stuff? Yeah, I guess I should specify that, it's probably naive to think a lot of people will see this and immediately recognize: "OMG, it's what I've been waiting for!" (personally it's something I've had in the back of my mind for a few years, I think. I recently realized it's not as hard to implement as I think it should have been.) 20:12:40 No, it was a programming language of some sort. 20:12:53 Had something to do with the tunes project, I think. 20:13:08 Fare might remember more, but he doesn't seem to be here. 20:13:49 BrianRice too 20:14:04 Hexstream: This seems somehow related to your paste -> http://common-lisp.net/project/new-op/ 20:14:47 Hexstream: yup use-cases and stuff. it might be really handy and cool, but i currently don't have a clue. :) 20:14:50 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0108d1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:22 madnificent: Yeah, I'm in the process of writing this down a bit. 20:15:29 Yeah, BrianRice too. 20:15:29 ... it wasn't just a watered-down lisp, was it? 20:16:12 hi 20:16:14 nyef: that is excellent wordplay and a long memory, too. i like it! 20:17:29 Thanks. 20:18:47 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:24:43 hi 20:24:58 hugod [~user@76.65.142.49] has joined #lisp 20:25:11 -!- msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has quit [Quit: msponge] 20:25:20 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.67.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:39 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.77.206] has joined #lisp 20:27:52 gigamonkey: well, now the problem is how to stop the acceptor. 20:29:28 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.253.114.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:29:44 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.253.114.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 20:30:07 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-67-31.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:31:04 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-92.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:32:11 cmm [~cmm@109.67.65.220] has joined #lisp 20:33:52 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-047-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:34 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 20:37:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-111-231.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:38:43 snearch [~snearch@e178118003.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:40:10 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.4.64] has joined #lisp 20:41:17 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:41:58 H4ns_ [5b3d41f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.65.246] has joined #lisp 20:43:16 -!- H4ns [5b3d41f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.65.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:43:46 msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has joined #lisp 20:45:41 Ok, I have some explanations of use-cases for phased-generic-functions now: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125926#1 20:46:46 -!- p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:47:40 Xach: yeah. I just need to have it return the thing. Or stash it in a global var. 20:48:18 p8m [~dmm@64.15.82.28] has joined #lisp 20:48:27 *Xach* would vote for a global, plus smarts in manifest:start to show existing server url if already running... 20:48:34 Sorry, I was away from the keyboard interviewing for a development editor gig that will pay 1/5 of my programmer consulting rate. 20:48:36 This is a situation where it would be awesome to have SBCL running on some server with a bunch of swank ports open that people to connect to and team edit the image. 20:48:36 gigamonkey: if you're talking about an acceptor: it would be beneficial to newcomers if they could stop their server even if they forgot to save the return value 20:48:40 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:49:10 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-255-43.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:49:11 H4ns_: yeah. Maybe a global hash table keyed by port. 20:49:35 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@AAmiens-551-1-135-118.w86-207.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928224103]] 20:50:24 i have a string of the form "sequence of number + a letter" eg: 20:50:24 "45A", "49C" and i want to convert it into something like this, "45A" -> 20:50:24 451, "49C" -> 493 where the letter is converted into it's alphabetical 20:50:24 position. i know (parse-integer :junk-allowed) and subseq can give 20:50:27 access to the letter, is there an easy way to do the conversion of the 20:50:31 alphabet 20:51:17 nicdev_: char-code may be helpful. you'll probably be educated about its portability in a bit, but it will work great. 20:51:28 nicdev_: there are truly many options. you could build a table mapping characters to values. 20:51:41 you could also use digit-char-p with a large radix. 20:51:42 nicdev_: What do you do after I? 20:52:22 you could make a vector of the alphabet and use position. 20:52:25 So many options! 20:53:06 And N-1 incorrect ones. ;-) 20:53:28 and then you'll run into EBCDIC! 20:53:44 Only with char-code. 20:54:06 right. he'll run into ebcdic. 20:54:10 (...) 20:54:10 -!- H4ns_ is now known as H4ns 20:54:23 (- (digit-char-p char 36) 9) 20:54:51 oO 20:55:11 H4ns: is bknr-web dead or just resting? 20:55:40 Xach: it is resting. how does it appear to be dead? 20:56:12 H4ns: Lack of perceived publicity 20:57:14 Xach: well, from that perspective, it was born dead :) 20:57:36 H4ns: oh! i remember fondly the early days of bknr-web, with the slide shows and rainforests and such! 20:57:53 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:57:54 Or maybe that was just the data store. 20:58:08 Xach: ThomasH, let me check the spec on what each of those does and 20:58:08 try them out....the vector solutions sounds neat but i might have to do 20:58:08 a bit of reading on that...still learning so, it's slow progress 20:59:02 Xach: right. it was more of the store that we were talking about. ah, those were the days! with world domination imminent! the glory of learning lisp! writing better defclass macros! 20:59:50 nicdev_: My question was more fundamental, you have a 3 digit code and convert the letter into a single digit, there are 26 letters. 20:59:56 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.77.20] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 21:00:02 I remember the excitement I felt when I saw an eboy graphics project in National Geographic. "The people who made that graphic used to have a website in Lisp!" I said excitedly to my cat... 21:00:45 that bknr pdf was a fun read 21:00:59 Xach: yeah. we were so excited that we talked them into believing they could learn lisp themselves. now they're running on wordpress :) 21:01:04 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.21.48] has joined #lisp 21:02:23 dlowe_lt [~dlowe@50-77-31-237-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:18 Wordpress runs on lisp? (just kidding) 21:05:42 ThomasH: the code can be longer than 3 digits long, just the 21:05:42 examples i gave were such, but "45Z" -> 4526 will be acceptable 21:07:24 nicdev_: Ok 21:07:34 ThomasH: so the (digit-char-p) example Xach gave works for me 21:07:34 now. and i just learned about a use case of another function! 21:08:12 oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:17 TDT`` [~user@dhcpw80ffc145.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 21:09:28 nicdev_: what kind of data is the input? 21:09:35 -!- TDT` [~user@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:10:05 nikodemus [~Nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:12:37 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:13:25 -!- TDT`` [~user@dhcpw80ffc145.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:14:08 Xach: what do you mean? this is classification data that i have, 21:14:08 and the processing program processes the classification groups as only 21:14:08 integers. the letter -> alphabet position conversion, is a legacy scheme 21:14:08 followed...basically, i have a chunk of data i have to process for work, 21:14:11 and i am trying to do some preprocessing with Lisp on it to make my life 21:14:14 easier 21:14:45 nicdev_: i don't think i've seen an encoding of integers like that before. 21:15:54 Hexstream: as for the hooks, you might be interested in Constanza's contextl 21:17:57 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.65.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:18:57 cmm [~cmm@109.67.65.220] has joined #lisp 21:19:24 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 21:19:29 Xach: not that much experience in encoding, would like to know the 21:19:30 right scheme for that kind of mapping for my own future reference if i 21:19:30 have to build something tho! should reading on character encoding point 21:19:30 in the right direction? for this case, the data is saved in some old dbf 21:19:33 files, and the processing programs does just lookups so as long as 21:19:36 things are wired right, it works! is it the best design? don't think so, 21:19:37 nicdev_: Please consider sending messages in less, bigger chunks... 21:19:39 but those decisions are beyond me! it's insurance software btw in case 21:19:42 you're wondering 21:20:10 Hexstream: will do so in the future 21:20:16 i should dig up my dbase file parser 21:20:38 i wrote it so i could process esri shapefiles, which are specified to have index files as .dbfs 21:20:51 Xach: you have one? is the code public, would love to take a look 21:20:52 at it 21:21:54 http://xach.com/tmp/db3.lisp 21:22:17 not as much as i thought. 21:22:33 Xach: it'd be cool if there was an easy way to convert a directory under dists/quicklisp/software/ into a git repo pointing to the original source (assuming the original is in git somewhere) 21:22:37 i had a project in mind to some coastal distance calculations with 21:22:38 shape files, but as am learning lisp 21:22:59 nicdev_: please. use the return key when you are finished with your sentence. thank you. 21:23:00 it was a challenge and focused my energy on PCL at the moment 21:23:08 Something like (ql:checkout "project-name")? 21:23:51 Xach: thanks for the dbase parser, will take a look and try hacking 21:23:51 on it 21:24:00 nicdev_: what irc client do you use? 21:24:05 erc 21:24:12 Hexstream: I guess. I guess my actual use case is sometimes I M-. to some source and muck with it while debugging. So one thing I'd like to do is make sure I've put it back into canonical shape when I'm done. 21:24:15 nicdev_: you are using it wrong. 21:24:15 nicdev_: The wall of text is fairly annoying. 21:24:57 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:25:14 Maybe what I really want is a way to ask quicklisp to make sure I have the original bits in dist/software/ 21:25:35 gigamonkey: i tend to think of the bits in software/ as pristine and read-only. 21:25:38 Having the dirs be git repos is probably just asking for trouble. 21:25:56 Xach: yeah. The problem is if M-. takes me there and I may muck with it. 21:26:15 gigamonkey: i'd like to help people muck. still trying to figure out the best way. 21:26:31 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@dyn-160-39-33-144.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 21:26:36 If I could just tell ql, "Verify the checksum on this dir and if it's wrong, please download me some clean bits." 21:27:00 Maybe make an easy way to grab the canonical version from git and put it in local-projects. 21:27:29 make software/ read only and make it easy to get a hacking copy 21:27:52 Maybe a slime contrib that detects when you start editing a file in the quicklisp directory, and throws an error with a restart to either go ahead and start editing or another restart to make a copy and start editing that?... (but then you need a way to load the new version...) 21:27:56 Then you can reload from there and M-. does the right thing. When you're done experimenting you just wipe out the local-projects version possibly after submitting a patch. 21:29:28 Hexstream, gigamonkey: that could make contributing to and/or forking projects much more common and easier 21:29:41 madnificent: that's a good thing, right? 21:30:04 Does paredit have any facility for rewriting certain forms such as converting a (when foo (stuff) (stuff)) to a (cond ((foo (stuff) (stuff))) (t)) ? 21:30:15 i don't see how you could read anything else into that, but to assert: yes, it is absolutely awesome! 21:30:16 -!- superflit [~superflit@174-16-47-177.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:30:18 gigamonkey: redshank does. 21:31:42 madnificent: Back in the day, son, "fork" was a dirty word. Before these newfangled dvcs came along. Get off my lawn! 21:31:43 are there tools to refactor the name of a function or macro? or to add arguments to them? alternatively, is there something in slime/paredit/redshank that will allow me to replace a specific symbol? 21:32:30 gigamonkey: ah yes, back when forking was a hostile thing :) with merging becoming so much easier, the negative meaning vanished in my perception 21:34:06 -!- ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Quit: brb] 21:34:48 ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 21:35:20 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:35:30 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 21:36:57 In Soviet Russia, project forks you! *rim shot* 21:36:58 lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:07 gigamonkey: how does toot relate to using websockets? i haven't checked out the latter and would like to do so, but i'd also like to check out toot. if both could be combined, that'd be awesome :) 21:37:52 There's a world of difference between a personal fork that's not distributed, a personal fork that's distributed but doesn't really have advertising/support, and a full fork that's distributed and actually tries hard to compete with or replace the original... In my view only this last kind might adversely affect the original project, and given it's the most complicated it won't be really facilitated by such a simple feature... 21:37:56 Farzad [~root@46.225.116.122] has joined #lisp 21:38:03 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:39:16 -!- chp [~chp@c-68-45-180-238.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:39:45 Bottom line, easily forking projects should mostly just enable easy sending of beneficial patches to the original project. 21:39:56 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:40:50 there's the issue of overhead and fragmentation, though. 21:41:03 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:58 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:42:07 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 21:42:23 Xach: with Manifest, we can also check out whether impls document the COMMON-LISP package. 21:43:27 So, what's toot? 21:43:54 luis: gigamonkey's simplified hunchentoot's fork 21:44:20 what does it do better? 21:44:38 Being small and easily understandable... Well, when it gets documented. 21:45:10 Hexstream: we're getting there. Check out https://github.com/gigamonkey/manifest 21:45:14 is it also as easy to use? 21:45:25 schoppen1auer [~christoph@2a01:4f8:101:281:7ad5:1003:0:1] has joined #lisp 21:45:32 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:33 -!- schoppen1auer [~christoph@2a01:4f8:101:281:7ad5:1003:0:1] has quit [Changing host] 21:45:33 schoppen1auer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:45:33 -!- schoppen1auer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:40 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:45:48 -!- nikodemus [~Nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:45:57 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 21:46:05 prxq: it has much less surface area that Hunchentoot. 21:46:13 Which makes it both easier and harder. 21:46:14 frito [~androirc@cpc12-sotn9-2-0-cust535.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:46:16 chenbing` [~user@125.118.7.72] has joined #lisp 21:46:28 Then I'm building Whistle which is a more full-featured server on top of Toot. 21:46:31 So, "Manifest is a sytem (sic) for semi-automatically documenting Common Lisp 21:46:32 pacakges (sic)." 21:46:46 Sorry, that should say Common Lisp pancakes. ;-) 21:46:59 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:47:04 gigamonkey: are you familiar with parse-docstrings? 21:47:38 luis: name rings a bell. 21:47:59 -!- chenbing [~user@125.118.7.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:48:08 gigamonkey: it'd be nice to hook that into manifest so you can have markup in the docstrings. 21:48:15 I must say, I don't really believe in automatically generated documentation... 21:48:39 Hexstream: well, it's mostly just showing you hand written documentation. 21:48:40 Except maybe for collections of "self-contained" utility operators. 21:48:43 literate programming for the win 21:48:48 Hexstream: well, it is better than nothing 21:48:51 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-201-58.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 21:49:01 gigamonkey: I am not volunteering, btw. :) 21:49:03 prxq: Yeah, sure. 21:49:08 And I have a plan to allow you to provide extra information to group things more meaningfully. 21:49:20 maybe a good idea would be to have main text that includes autogenerated parts 21:49:22 luis: so what is (or where is) the one-sentence description of what parse-docstrings is 21:49:29 superflit [~superflit@174-16-47-177.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:04 gigamonkey: Are you aware of closer-mop's c2cl package? 21:51:04 gigamonkey: parse-docstrings inspects a system, extracts docstrings, and parses them. It knows how to handle texinfo, atdoc's format, at least. It's got an intermediate format that you can then convert into whatever your documentation system wants. 21:51:18 My only critique is that when the docstring is too long, it disrupts the flow of the code, visually separating the function signature from the body. 21:51:39 -!- gz` [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 21:51:40 gigamonkey: IIRC, the idea is to use it as the backend for things like texinfo-docstrings (which generates Texinfo manuals from docstrings) and atdoc. 21:51:45 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-193.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:55 Okay, now Manifest throws in the README if there is one in the same directory as the .asd file. 21:53:30 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:53:37 Anyway, Manifest looks cool. 21:53:53 ThomasH: yeah, I also don't like that. You can always (setf (documentation ...) "A long string ...") 21:54:02 I.e. docstrings don't have to be inline. 21:54:09 gigamonkey: http://repo.or.cz/w/parse-docstrings.git 21:54:33 luis: yeah, I found that. Couldn't tell from the description quite what it did. 21:54:43 parse-docstrings also proposes a solution for the dreaded long docstring problem. 21:55:04 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.253.114.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:55:08 the ANNOTATE-DOCUMENTATION macro: http://repo.or.cz/w/parse-docstrings.git/blob/HEAD:/annotate-documentation.lisp 21:55:14 gigamonkey: I never thought of using (documentation ...) that way, for some reason. Have to think about how I would organize that. 21:55:39 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.253.114.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:56:15 I also kinda wonder why docstrings aren't just an arbitrary s-expression... Anyway a lot of docstrings aren't actually plain-text, so they require some amount of correct "interpretation", so why not just structure them with ad-hoc s-expressions instead of ad-hoc string formats? 21:56:44 Hexstream: that's pretty much what annotate-documentation does isn't it? 21:57:30 (defun foo (&rest parameters) (documentation (html-doc-whatever:html (:p "Some HTML documentation")))) 21:58:09 docstrings are a useful 80% solution. 21:58:20 If you need more markup in the documentation, maybe it shouldn't be inline 21:58:42 I like the idea of (defun foo (&rest parameters) (documentation (read-some-external-file)) ...) 21:59:11 if you do it like this, you might as well have a DOCUMENTATION declaration 21:59:14 pkhuong: There is still a coordination problem. 21:59:24 Or synchronization, rather. 21:59:34 Yeah, but we can't (setf documentation) an s-expression... (No need to tell me the various ways of working around that, shadow symbol and whatnot..) 21:59:43 -!- duomo [~duomo@d90h144.public.simons-rock.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:59:57 ThomasH: I don't use or write documentation like you do. 21:59:58 My theory is I'll provide a way to specify docs out-of-line and the fallback to the results of (documentation ...) if nothing else is provided. 22:00:11 also, I find it hard enough to motivate myself (and others) to write even a text string describing stuff. an sexpr won't make that any easier (and it's harder to pick out the actual code from sexps) 22:00:22 pkhuong: Problem solved! 22:00:27 Thus libs with just docstrings will at least have something but a library author who wants to prived better docs can do so. 22:00:54 (out of line documentation is nicer IMHO because it doesn't disturb the code reading flow) 22:00:55 The Right Thing would be to have widespread smart editors that can show documentation interleaved with code or just the code or just the documentation... 22:01:07 ThomasH: I find there's nothing as useless as javadoc style documentation. 22:01:18 -!- felideon [~user@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:01:48 ThomasH: my docstrings are short and describe the function, not the library. I have out of line documentation for that. 22:01:56 javadoc style documentation that lies? (: 22:02:20 all documentation lies. Some more than others. 22:02:33 I mean, intentionally misleads (: 22:02:47 antifuchs: one of the first things I did when I started work on Toot was to delete most of the :documenation clauses and many of the docstrings. Just to avoid clutter. 22:02:48 antifuchs: useful for me! 22:03:14 pkhuong: I waffle around on what I expect and do for documentation. I tend to practice what you describe, but keep thinking I'm doing it wrong. 22:03:45 gigamonkey: very good. I'm very glad there's (setf documentation), and would appreciate a separate file with docstrings (and a build process thing / test that makes sure all things are documented) 22:04:12 (all /exported/ things) 22:04:14 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-134.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:04:26 antifuchs: in the plans for Manifest. 22:04:31 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-84-108-108-191.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:15 *luis* ponders whether to use toot in his project. hmm. 22:05:15 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-gaywotfdaklsoboy] has joined #lisp 22:05:21 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-134.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:05:49 I'd say Toot is approaching early beta status. 22:06:00 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:06:01 For what that's worth. 22:06:39 is that where we try to break it and benchmark it into the ground? ((: 22:07:08 antifuchs: sure, go for it. Don't however be surprised if you can't run your benchmarks because I've accidentally broken some basic functionality. 22:07:13 What's the best way to take a list of strings and create one string that's the all the other strings concatenated, but with a tab character between each? 22:07:24 I'd be interested to know if it's any faster than Hunchentoot purely from the simpler code paths. 22:07:46 ("foo" "bar" "baz") ==> "foobarbaz" 22:08:03 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:46 reb: might use some format ~{ magic for that 22:08:58 reb: sadly the tab is kind of pain. 22:09:30 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: rpg] 22:09:36 You could write (format nil "~{~a~^ ~}" list) where the spaces after ~^ are a tab character. 22:09:44 I'm doing a code review and am unhappy with: 22:09:46 But it may be hard to convince your editor to actually put in a literal tab. 22:09:47 (format nil (format nil "~~{~~a~~^~c~~}" #\tab) strings) 22:09:52 haha 22:10:12 sad that ~T doesn't drop a tab character 22:10:19 Exactly! 22:10:25 Clearly that should be: (format nil #.(format nil "~~{~~a~~^~c~~}" #\tab) strings) 22:10:25 Wasn't there just a lisp-tip about using format that way? 22:10:44 reb: just remove the last #\tab 22:10:48 use ~?! 22:11:17 (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (write-char #\Tab) (write-string (car strings)) (mapc #'write-string (cdr strings))) 22:11:27 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:11:30 -!- scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:11:39 Hah, uh, hold on :/ 22:12:13 Use FORMAT, it will do this. 22:12:15 (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (write-string (car strings)) (mapc (lambda (string) (write-char #\Tab) (write-string string)) (cdr strings))) 22:12:18 Hexstream: thanks ... I thought of that, but it's not clearly superior to the format trick, so long as it uses #. 22:12:50 reb: What? I don't use #.... 22:13:16 I'm saying that I prefer gigamonkey's version. 22:15:45 Hmmm, ~? ... have to look that one up. 22:15:46 try (format nil "~a~c~a" "~{~a~^" #\Tab "~}") 22:16:00 use cl-interpol and you can just do #?"\t" 22:16:02 not MUCH prettier, but could communicate the intent (: 22:16:09 dlowe_lt's solution is best. 22:16:16 cl-interpol wins. 22:16:29 To be honest I like FORMAT, it's FORMAT control strings I really hate. ;P 22:16:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:16:43 -!- dlowe_lt [~dlowe@50-77-31-237-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:16:46 dlowe_lt: thanks for the cl-interpol suggestion 22:17:32 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-047-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:18:40 -!- superflit [~superflit@174-16-47-177.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:18:52 superflit [~superflit@174-16-47-177.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:36 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 22:20:07 oooor use this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125932 22:21:16 duomo [~duomo@cpe-69-204-170-230.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:23:58 antifuchs: That reminds me that I might have something similar. 22:24:03 -!- frito [~androirc@cpc12-sotn9-2-0-cust535.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 22:24:47 alexandria could use a smart "interleave" sequence function 22:27:25 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:27:36 -!- msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has quit [Quit: msponge] 22:29:25 antifuchs: unsplit-sequence (: 22:30:25 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:31:49 msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has joined #lisp 22:31:55 pkhuong: well, not necessarily unsplit! 22:32:07 just, "put this element between all elements of the sequence" 22:32:27 php has "implode" for that, doesn't it? 22:34:38 that's what the join-strings function does, yes. interleave should retain the sequence type and just return a sequence with more elements 22:34:52 -!- blumbri [~blumbri@c-67-181-176-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:35:21 (consing a new one) 22:39:14 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177889983.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:40:29 antifuchs: in Allegro is the class of a method object for a slot reader/accessor different from the class of a method object defined with defmethod? 22:41:05 Nosceteipsum [~merodach@e183232125.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:41:53 gigamonkey: seems to be standard, from closer-mop 22:42:15 I'm not quite able to understand that question right now 22:42:19 (let alone answer it) 22:42:25 antifuchs: I trust pkhuong 22:42:36 that's usually a good policy! 22:43:02 closer-mop exports standard-reader-method, at least. 22:45:34 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:46:12 gigamonkey: my turn. I have to write about two loosely-related topics, and you wanted, for each topic, to present each topic and defend its relevance, and then give an overview of what we know about it. What would you take into account to decide whether to treat each topic in its own section, or interleave them? 22:48:20 cohesion and coupling? 22:48:46 Bike_ [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has joined #lisp 22:48:50 What are the two topics? If it's not secret. 22:48:50 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:49:51 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:49:53 it's not secret, just fairly obscure. An industrial two-level facility location problem and a more abstract uncapacitated two-level facility location problem. 22:50:09 pkhuong: I know you didn't ask me, but I would try both versions in drafts and just go with what feels better. 22:51:21 *prxq* presumes he missed the point 22:51:34 I guess I would say if you can write about them totally separately, you should. 22:51:34 prxq: I wrote one version and it feels awful. I now have to figure out if I can significantly improve the section/topic version, or try doing it the other way. 22:52:06 There are actually three choices. A then B, B then A, and A,B interleaved. 22:52:38 It's also possible you need a more sophisticated structure like common-bits, rest-of-A, rest-of-B 22:52:42 there's also, intersection, and then A and B, or A+B interleaved 22:52:47 -!- nicdev_ [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 22:53:25 I think intersection then A+B interleaved is just A+B interleaved. 22:53:26 thank you. For some reason I haven't thought of doing it separately but in reverse order. 22:53:55 I ran into this problem in PCL where I wanted to write about functions, variables, and macros but couldn't write about any of them without having discussed the others. 22:54:38 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 22:54:39 Eventually that lead to writing chapter 4 that introduced them all briefly. 22:55:16 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0108d1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: good night] 22:55:49 I'd also suspect that if you have a concrete verison and an abstract version, it may be easier to write about the concrete one first and lead the reader to a point where the see the utility of a more abtstract understanding. 22:57:14 -!- nyquist [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:10 nicdev_ [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:16 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.253.114.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:00:51 Can anybody point me to some additional info on stack-groups (more than http://common-lisp.net/project/bknr/static/lmman/fd-sg.xml#stack-group ) ? 23:01:01 benny [~benny@i577A309A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:03:52 kami: CMUCL or some branch has/had support for task groups. It's regular cooperative multitasking. 23:03:55 totzeit1 [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:09 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 23:05:02 It's a historical name as well, the LispMs had stack groups which could be preempted. 23:05:18 -!- totzeit1 [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:44 -!- ThomasH [46822acb@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 23:05:53 Which implies that you could look for "chine nual" and "ssdn2". 23:06:18 totzeit1 [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:35 *stack groups in CMUCL as well. 23:07:30 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@ip21-159.200.109.crimea.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:07:42 grouzen [~grouzen@ip21-159.200.109.crimea.com] has joined #lisp 23:09:26 Seems there was a cmucl hack to yield on sigalrm "for the brave". Some things never change. 23:09:41 Alright, who's naming functions with keywords as names? 23:10:04 gigamonkey: well, macros? I do. 23:10:20 There's a lot of constants in the :keyword package, all of them undocumented. ;-) 23:10:34 Eg, :euc-jp->string-aref 23:11:16 is there something like if then else that can run multiple sexps? i mean if runs only one and cond has no else... maybe like (when ( (eq x y) (do something)) else (something else))) 23:11:43 Ah, that'd be SBCL in its external formats code. 23:12:10 (cond ((test ....)) (t ....)) 23:12:26 the t clause is your else. 23:12:56 ok thanks, i thought i should have missed it somewhere :P 23:13:16 gigamonkey: erm, every symbol in the keyword package is a constant, and usually undocumented... 23:13:20 You could also always do (if test (progn ...) (progn ...)) 23:13:24 kpreid: I know. I joke. 23:13:35 -!- oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:13:47 I've just built a tool that shows you docs for exported symbols and found the page for the keyword package amusing. 23:14:31 Ah. Without that context it was less clear you were talking about two things. 23:14:39 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-84-108-108-191.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:15:31 /leave 23:15:34 23:15:45 marsell [~marsell@101.116.43.168] has joined #lisp 23:16:09 -!- lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has left #lisp 23:19:19 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 23:20:13 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:23:48 How do I clear the slime-repl buffer? 23:24:34 Cc Mo 23:24:40 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:24:46 Thanks. 23:25:07 *nyef* so rarely has to clear the buffer. 23:25:30 really? i clear it often enough i set up a command i can use from any buffer to clear the current repl 23:25:30 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.4.64] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:30:27 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:32:23 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@dyn-160-39-33-144.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: RomyEatsDrupal] 23:35:09 When using postmodern, is there any drawback to setting *escape-sql-names-p* to T? 23:37:55 -!- Nosceteipsum [~merodach@e183232125.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:38:19 nyef: What does that do? 23:38:47 Sets it to always escape stuff instead of only escaping reserved identifiers. 23:39:17 nyef: ah. that might be a slight pain wrt case folding 23:40:04 If it gets me where I want to be with enum types, I'll pay that price. 23:40:25 onlypython [~seven@ool-4357278c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:34 nyef: it's a little like using || all the time for symbols. 23:40:49 -!- onlypython [~seven@ool-4357278c.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 23:41:13 That's fair, then. I don't mind paying attention to case when talking to a database. 23:42:35 Hrm. Moot point, it still doesn't get me to a working program. :-/ 23:43:06 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:43:21 qsun` [~user@123-243-18-22.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:43:48 nyef: well, it might not be an issue for a self-contained program, but if you use some other tool, the names might crop up as an issue. 23:43:54 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:43:57 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.253.114.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:44:03 "error in process filter: Stack overflow in regexp matcher"? That's neat. 23:44:04 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 23:44:05 I don't think the risk is high, just present. 23:44:57 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:47:11 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:51:15 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.154.211] has joined #lisp 23:52:25 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:52:42 -!- dmiles_afk is now known as dmiles 23:52:43 -!- dmiles is now known as dmiles_afk 23:54:01 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:02 pkhuong, nyef: thank you. Especially for 'chine nual' :) 23:58:32 lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:00 Xach: Manifest now breaks out conditions separately from other classes.