00:00:26 prip [~foo@host214-124-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:02:14 me345 [~me345@adsl-71-131-134-78.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:31 [6502]: there are too lawyers even here :) 00:02:31 -!- __mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:05:48 __mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 00:09:54 earlgray [~Adium@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:28 -!- snearch [~snearch@e178123067.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 00:11:02 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:11:25 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:13:20 cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.181.76] has joined #lisp 00:14:10 -!- hagish [~hagish@pD9FBE0C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:14:56 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-173-50.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:14:59 -!- earlgray [~Adium@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:15:03 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:21:33 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-166-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:21:56 -!- __mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:22:50 I'm happy, I got LISP 3rd Edition in the mail :D 00:23:50 optikalmouse: Would you say it's worth it? :) 00:23:58 might be interested in something similar 00:25:04 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:28:25 optikalmouse: winston & horn? 00:30:01 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.4.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:30:40 -!- drdo [~drdo@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:30:48 drdo [~drdo@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 00:30:55 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:33:46 -!- [6502] [4e0ce17d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.225.125] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:36:40 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.111.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:37:28 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.2.203] has joined #lisp 00:38:42 Xach: yes 00:38:58 Iceland_jack: I bought it used for $6 so yeah definitely lol 00:39:24 I like how it progresses; starts with the basics and examples of the commands and the 2nd half is applications (Prolog, AI stuff like blocks world, etc.) 00:43:06 optikalmouse: Jolly good price you got it for. I have it on my Amazon wishlist and it runs for ~40USD (2nd hand). 00:48:35 -!- allandee [~allandee@212.45.113.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:50:40 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-21-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:51:39 antoszka: really? they used to be a dime a dozen 00:52:02 optikalmouse: i thought it looked good but i didn't read it thoroughly, i had already read a lot of books by the time i got to it 00:55:17 -!- TannerB [~tanner@S0106f4ec38fdc4d8.wp.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:57:57 -!- p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-nljcmskphguickhb] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:58:12 Xach: I only have a few lisp books so...I have LISP 1.5, Land of Lisp and that's pretty much it. it's nice to have a physical book that goes through the basics and also includes slightly harder material. 00:58:48 Xach: Hm... Yeah, I think I looked in the wrong place. 55 Used from $1.92. The only remaining problem is that most of the 2nd-hand affiliated sellers won't ship overseas. 00:59:35 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:30 antoszka: i'll ship overseas 01:00:34 allandee [~allandee@31.25.16.126] has joined #lisp 01:00:39 if you really want it 01:01:03 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:21 -!- Quaydon [~aaaaaaa@cpe-071-068-114-143.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:03:14 Xach: Thanks a lot -- I'm browsing the second hand sellers and some of them are able to ship overseas, so I won't need to trouble you with that particular book, it seems :). 01:04:48 I think the used book cost for Object Oriented Common Lisp was still pricey and the cheaper ones only shipped in the U.S. 01:05:01 optikalmouse: Sonya Keene's book? 01:05:54 antoszka: the slade book 01:05:57 http://www.amazon.ca/Object-Oriented-Common-LISP-Stephen-Slade/dp/0136059406/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1321232744&sr=1-1 01:06:16 Ah. 01:06:23 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:06:49 I was thinking of buying the keene book but I figure that OO LISP is a newer book and will contain more updated info? 01:07:17 I hope it isn't 800 pages of filler at least... ;p 01:07:57 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 01:08:17 It's the first time I'm hearing about this book, and I've seen Keene's book recommended in a number of texts (for a number of reasons), so there might be something to it. 01:08:23 optikalmouse: I've had Slade specifically disrecommended to me 01:08:31 Keene, on the other hand, is great 01:08:39 ...damnit 01:08:48 I should have asked here about the books before I ordered them... 01:09:01 I got Keene new from Amazon for a reasonable price, AFAIR. 01:09:24 what other CLOS books are solid? 01:09:27 *antoszka* off to bed, 'night. 01:09:54 is clos really complicated enough that it requires it's own book? 01:10:07 its 01:10:29 catphive: I don't see the implication. 01:10:39 p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-sopvvfspgyaovobb] has joined #lisp 01:10:50 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:11:20 tiglog [~topeak@61.149.229.49] has joined #lisp 01:13:04 optikalmouse: Lisp, 3rd Ed has good CLOS material, too 01:13:17 Xach: oh? *checks table of contents...* 01:19:52 -!- zmv [~zmv@c9533879.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:21:57 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 01:22:05 iok [~user@h-205-141.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 01:28:13 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:30:17 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.205.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:30:37 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.205.204] has joined #lisp 01:31:09 ifnspifn [~ifnspifn@173.204.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:38:09 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-21-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:32 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:40 holycow [~holycow@host-64-151-208-2.bchsia.in2net.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:36 senj [~senj@S01060026f323bcdf.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:44 -!- troydm [~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:43:56 If you have a fuction that normally returns say, two values, but in some cases returns nil is it better style in the latter case to just return nil or to return (values nil nil) 01:44:50 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.90.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:45:38 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:46 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.181.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:49:21 gigamonkey: practically, does it ever make a difference? 01:49:47 m-v-call and m-v-list aren't used much or at all by most people. 01:50:46 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0/20111104165243]] 01:50:59 pkhuong: no, purely a matter of style. 01:51:43 I'd stay consistent. 01:52:03 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-166-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:07 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.90.181] has joined #lisp 01:54:01 pkhuong: meaning (values nil nil)? 01:54:48 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@175.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 01:59:04 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d1a3c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:59:28 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.66.69.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:59:56 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 02:01:33 cmm [~cmm@109.65.202.123] has joined #lisp 02:02:26 -!- me345 [~me345@adsl-71-131-134-78.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:02:33 might someone confirm for me if it is possible to install cletris via quicklisp? see: http://www.lamirault.info/nicolas/projects/cletris/ 02:02:52 ql:quickload says package not found but quicklisp.org lists the pacakge 02:04:19 Emacs quick question: how does one remove a window that's taking up half the screen (i.e. debug)? 02:04:25 I don't have a mouse3 button on my mouse 02:04:56 c-x 1 02:05:09 c-x 2 and c-x 3 split the window 02:05:14 i hope that is what you were asking 02:05:32 it is, thanks! 02:05:47 still getting used to memorizing these key combos 02:06:14 yeah. you only need to remember about half a dozen to a dozen of the basic ones to get started 02:06:18 the rest is self discoverable 02:08:31 also, I seem to be getting a style-warning when loading a CL file, saying I have an undefined function when I define it later on 02:08:43 as in, I reference a function at the top of the file that I define later on 02:08:48 i get that too, i don't know the proper way to handle that 02:08:52 hm 02:09:08 I could move it up, but the function I define calls the function that calls it :| 02:09:25 so I'd just get the other function as 'undefined' 02:10:26 Phooodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:06 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:11:59 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:13:55 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:03 gko [~gko@111.81.247.146] has joined #lisp 02:17:14 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:19:00 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A598E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:01 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:24:46 -!- MjrTom [MjrTom@azureus/MjrTom] has quit [Quit: Planet Earth is blue and there's nothing I can do] 02:25:03 -!- senj [~senj@S01060026f323bcdf.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 02:25:50 might someone be able to tell me why pal refuses to load in quicklisp? it is listed here: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects ... but quicklisp insists that "System "pal" not found. 02:26:04 -!- gko [~gko@111.81.247.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:20 -!- ifnspifn [~ifnspifn@173.204.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:48 holycow: do you possibly need to update your dists? 02:26:51 gigamonkey: right. 02:27:24 oh, i may have screwed that up then. okay on to google how to fix. thank you. 02:31:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.5] has joined #lisp 02:31:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.5] has quit [Changing host] 02:31:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 02:32:08 MjrTom [MjrTom@azureus/MjrTom] has joined #lisp 02:32:19 -!- optikalmouse [~user@bas1-toronto07-1176324795.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:32:47 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B495.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:34:17 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B4F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:02 gko [~gko@111.81.247.146] has joined #lisp 02:35:43 lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:32 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 02:39:04 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:41:56 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.205.204] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 02:43:50 akovalenko [~anton@95.72.170.200] has joined #lisp 02:52:06 reinstalled quicklisp, pal is not there. how odd 02:54:35 holycow: PAL broke with sbcl updates, author never kept up 02:54:50 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.205.204] has joined #lisp 02:55:36 oh! 02:56:22 what happens to these sorts of projects: do they ever disappeaer from here: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects? 02:57:13 perhaps a quicklisp-projects-deprecated might be useful at some point 02:58:17 holycow: they disappear from http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/releases.html 02:58:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 02:58:53 right. my apologies. that makes sense. thank you kindly. 02:59:04 holycow: anyway, it's not deprecated - if it's ever fixed, it'll be automatically added back in 02:59:26 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-65-6.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:01:42 centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-172-67.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:23 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 03:07:53 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:08:14 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:09:49 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:46 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 03:14:25 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:15:34 -!- iok [~user@h-205-141.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:17:26 ifnspifn [~ifnspifn@184.91.204.173] has joined #lisp 03:17:49 anybody terribly bored and thrilled at the prospect of critiquing a newbie's code? :D 03:18:02 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 03:18:52 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-141-20.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:39 Can another n00b participate? 03:19:40 =P 03:20:01 sure thang! know anything about the minimax algorithm? 03:20:23 it's not terribly important that you do, but it'd definitely help me skip some explanation 03:20:27 absolutely... nothing =\ 03:21:07 no worries! although I'm sure wikipedia would explain it better than I, it's a way of letting a game AI know which move to make in a 2 player game 03:21:10 like chess or go 03:21:21 kk 03:21:58 imagine we're playing tic tac toe, and it's my turn 03:22:03 ok 03:22:10 I can make, at most 9 moves on the first turn 03:22:46 so I write all 9 possible moves as children of some root node of a tree (i'm assuming you know about trees!) 03:23:24 then, from each of those 9, you can make 8 moves, meaning each one of my 9 moves has 8 children 03:23:40 Man, I'd love to help you... yet I'm already lost. 03:23:40 in other words, I'm writing out every possible game anyone could ever play of tic tac toe! 03:23:46 I'm like a super, suuuper n00b to lisp 03:23:47 haha, ain't no thang :D 03:24:02 it's sorta lisp agnostic, just a general artificial intelligence idea 03:24:11 i'm just implementing it in lisp 03:24:22 I'm pretty sure it predates usable computers. 03:24:35 minimax? or lisp? 03:24:41 Minimax. 03:24:53 oh yeah, probably 03:24:56 it's game theory stuff 03:25:23 well I can phrase it this way, if you know about trees in general (?) 03:25:49 I've got a tree, and I'm trying to search for an optimal path 03:26:01 at the leaves of the tree, there are values, and those percolate up in a specific way 03:26:39 basically their parent nodes alternate between picking the minimum child, and the maximum child 03:27:03 so my program takes a list like this: (1 5 2 (2 6 10) (2 3 1)) 03:27:21 and then returns the max element to pick 03:27:39 the catch being that if you go one level down (like that list of (2 6 10), that list really amounts to the minimum value there 03:27:50 so the example list reduces to (1 5 2 2 1) 03:28:04 so my best path is the max of this, which is 5 03:28:22 I dunno if I'm making sense or not :( 03:30:26 ifnspifn: what's your minimax search function's argument list? 03:30:56 it's just the tree 03:31:35 i.e. (x1 x2 (y1 y2)) 03:31:56 where x1 and x2 are the first children of the tree, and y1 and y2 are the children of a node on the first level 03:32:16 ifnspifn: that doesn't make sense. 03:32:43 hm 03:33:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Minimax.svg 03:33:11 actually, scratch that example, it's huge 03:33:44 rukubites [~user@d211-30-71-110.meb9.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:33:47 I'm not sure how else to explain it. The input is a search tree represented as a list 03:33:57 ifnspifn: I know how minimax works. Having the search tree as input doesn't make sense. 03:34:28 When using quicklisp, is there a way to force-recompile systems? 03:34:47 something like (ql:quickload "foo" :force-recompile t) 03:35:27 pkhuong: I'm not sure what you mean. Here's the URL of my assignment (don't worry, I'm not asking anyone to do it for me, just to analyze my solution) http://www.cs.ucf.edu/courses/cap4630/fall2011/lab3-i-f111.l 03:36:11 I suppose calling this assignment an 'implementation' of minimax is misleading 03:36:26 since the heuristics are already calculated 03:36:58 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:38:10 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 03:39:30 and the graph is an explicit tree. 03:39:40 does the assignment description clarify anything? The search tree has its leaf nodes being the heuristic values 03:39:41 yes 03:39:44 Given that the assignment doesn't specify the tree layout, I can't help you. 03:40:35 Ah. I see what it means. 03:40:55 the tree layout is derived directly from the input list. so, for (x1 x2 x3), the x's are children of the root, and they themselves can be subtrees 03:40:56 ifnspifn: so, what's the signature of *your* minimax function? 03:41:02 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:09 signature? 03:41:17 argument list and return values 03:42:07 ah, ok. it takes in a tree represented as a list, and outputs a list of two values: the first is a value n, the second is the n'th element of the evaluated input tree 03:42:26 That's not what i'm asking. I'm asking for *your* minimax function. 03:43:20 https://gist.github.com/1363186 03:43:22 You've already stated that, depending on the current player, you have to flip the evaluation function. How can you do that if you don't know the current player? 03:43:52 -!- noidea [~noidea`@cpe-098-026-103-001.nc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 03:43:52 I'm assuming the current player is myself, and as per my textbook's convention, I use the max function 03:44:09 this was more implied in-class than on the assignment spec 03:44:20 -!- mensch [~mensch@c-98-217-184-95.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:44:46 ifnspifn: the current player changes at each level in the tree. 03:44:51 yes 03:45:02 so at level 1, I find the max of the values 03:45:05 at level 2, I find the min 03:45:35 this is done using the functions 'maxi' and 'mini' 03:45:48 gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.212.93] has joined #lisp 03:46:02 not the best names, I suppose... 'maxi' is meant to be mapcar'd to a level of the tree where we're finding the min 03:46:04 That will be harder to extend when you want to really implement a minimax search. 03:46:15 true 03:47:07 There's no need for two functions that do exactly the same thing, except for changing the evaluation function. You can just keep track of the current player and always use the same function. 03:47:57 by passing the player state as a parameter? 03:48:14 -!- lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:48:25 hba [~hba@189.229.226.57] has joined #lisp 03:49:02 For instance. It's often the case that the simplest way to implement a recursive procedure is to implement a generalized version of that procedure... much like with mathematical induction. 03:50:09 I don't quite follow the analogy. In induction, we generalize the statement with an arbitrary k, but here I need two well defined states? 03:53:03 ifnspifn: in mathematical induction, it's often useful to strengthen the induction hypothesis (solve a more general problem). e.g. . 03:55:04 I see now, so reducing this problem to another? 03:55:22 (or would it be reducing the general problem to this? it's been too long since discrete math..) 03:55:27 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 03:56:30 When using quicklisp, is there a way to force-recompile systems? 03:56:31 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@222.126.197.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:56:33 so same thing with minimax. Keep track of whether you want to maximize or minimize with an argument. 03:57:48 since it's a binary state (player 1 or player 2), I suppose I could use T or NIL for the states, and negate them whilst recursing 03:58:03 but that seems ugly. 03:59:44 It fits the symmetry of the game better; hence, less code to debug and less code to write in the next assignment. 03:59:55 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:01:32 alright, I'll work on rolling up those functions.. seems like it makes sense to keep the element analysis separate from the list analysis, though 04:01:33 You could use 1 and -1, and that takes advantage of the (likely) symmetry of the problem. 04:01:56 also true 04:02:04 rukubites: it's tic tac toe (: 04:02:18 Ahhh, okay. I seem to remember the heuristics. 04:02:35 Back in my younger days, I was an AI/lisp tutor for my uni. 04:02:42 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5DE8F24B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:02:48 I've got to run, though; thanks for the advice, pkhuong/rukubites :] 04:05:24 el-maxo [~max@p5DE8EF05.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:47 duomo [~duomo@120-dcmp11.goeaston.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:54 -!- knob [~knob@66.50.164.238] has quit [] 04:18:48 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 04:23:34 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 04:26:47 roadt [~roadt@60.168.94.12] has joined #lisp 04:28:28 hi, i just realize the key difference between macro and fun is that macro doesn't evaluate the argument while func does. can i say like this? 04:28:33 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:29:40 may be it's too naive, wonder if anyone can give me a confirmation. 04:30:00 that is an important difference 04:30:04 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.84] has joined #lisp 04:30:04 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.84] has quit [Changing host] 04:30:04 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:30:13 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:27 daniel_ [~daniel@p5B326ABF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:29 Xach, got it. i'll walk forward in my adventure. 04:31:33 Xach, thank you. 04:31:38 -!- Phooodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:32:40 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5B326621.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:36:25 -!- drdo [~drdo@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:38:25 -!- ehine1 [~ericyoda@rrcs-72-43-70-106.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:40:10 Xach, you'd perhaps be the expert :-) When using quicklisp, is there a way to force-recompile systems? 04:40:44 rukubites: specific systems? 04:41:06 Xach: specific systems is preferred, but a global recompile is acceptable. 04:41:20 rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp/ is a big hammer 04:41:34 it is much more an asdf issue than a quicklisp issue, i'm afraid 04:42:02 I thought so. It is actually just one system of mine, so I figured I might do it at the asdf level if possible. 04:42:49 Essentially I want to recompile it with some different macro definitions, to conditionally not evaluate slow (log5) library code 04:43:41 if your system definition is right, it should just suffice to load it again 04:44:02 alunihil [~chatzilla@111-252-211-231.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:32 I thought I could do some trick that way, add some conditional file. I was thinking of doing the macro redefinition with features. 04:45:32 I might dig in to asdf. The code is called from an sbcl script anyway, so I have some flexibility. 04:45:35 akovalen` [~anton@95.72.171.122] has joined #lisp 04:45:38 -!- akovalenko [~anton@95.72.170.200] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:46:37 Perhaps I can just force an asdf compile-op and be happy. 04:46:55 rukubites: if something has changed it should reload 04:47:00 you need not force it 04:47:19 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qlptegulrrdhskft] has joined #lisp 04:48:03 Does something include an external (pushnew :no-logging *features*) ? 04:48:07 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-164.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:48:18 nope 04:48:20 everybody loves ramond 04:48:54 Hence the desire to force-compile. I need to compile (I think) so the new stub macros will be used. 04:50:01 I think the answer is in asdf, not quicklisp. But thanks for providing your expertise. :-) 04:54:08 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p4FE33B6A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:16 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-166-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:58:40 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-172-67.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:02:12 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:02:12 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 05:02:12 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 05:03:13 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.202.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:04:57 Cloud_ [~cbolano@187.193.181.76] has joined #lisp 05:04:57 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-208-18.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:14 gaidal_ [~gaidal@219.136.212.93] has joined #lisp 05:06:43 ehine1 [~ericyoda@rrcs-72-43-70-106.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:07:29 -!- dnolen 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has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:42:32 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-147-18.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 06:43:20 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:47:52 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:48:40 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-92.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:49:10 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 06:56:28 chenbing [~user@125.118.1.155] has joined #lisp 06:57:20 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:57:41 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:01:31 to denote literally an array and a vector #2a((b nil nil) (nil nil nil)) failed ,#(2 'a "he") works 07:05:55 -!- chenbing [~user@125.118.1.155] has left #lisp 07:06:01 chenbing [~user@125.118.1.155] has joined #lisp 07:06:06 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:06:27 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.187.200] has joined #lisp 07:06:35 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-164.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:08:42 -!- npat [~npat@77.49.56.60.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:15:01 drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:55 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@dsl78-143-210-97.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:19:45 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:20:52 -!- chenbing [~user@125.118.1.155] has left #lisp 07:21:03 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:21:20 -!- robba [~robba@99-9-112-225.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 07:21:35 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.4.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:21:55 chenbing [~user@125.118.1.155] has joined #lisp 07:25:52 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.18.184] has joined #lisp 07:26:05 Hi all! 07:26:12 hello 07:27:41 ps: i might not speak for all with my cheerful response 07:30:28 -!- eMBee is now known as all 07:30:37 who called? 07:31:01 -!- catphive [~brenmill@50-46-167-81.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:31:02 -!- all is now known as Guest15841 07:31:09 -!- Guest15841 is now known as eMBee 07:32:30 agumonkey [~agu@151.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:34:31 npat [~npat@46.12.40.24.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:38:10 -!- easyE` [H9DY6oVnf8@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:39:00 It's a busy weekstart 07:39:48 chenbing: what's the issue with your array? i don't get any errors using #2a((b nil nil) (nil nil nil)) in sbcl 07:40:30 in REPL toplevel will be a error 07:40:46 not here 07:41:25 alesguzik [~alesguzik@195.222.85.160.altoros.com] has joined #lisp 07:41:26 -!- kaiku [mokou@i.orz.fi] has left #lisp 07:42:11 it will be treated as a ilegal funcal 07:42:34 can you paste your whole input and output? 07:43:05 (type-of #2a((b nil nil) (nil nil nil))) -> (SIMPLE-ARRAY T (2 3)) 07:44:05 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125852 07:44:08 -!- Phooodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:45:21 seems sbcl and cmucl are less picky. try #2a(('b nil nil) (nil nil nil)) 07:45:47 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.18.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:45:48 -!- madrik [~user@122.168.6.255] has left #lisp 07:45:55 or rather #2a(('b nil nil) ('nil nil nil)) i think 07:47:03 '#2a((b nil nil) (nil nil nil)) should work too 07:47:40 quotes the whole expression... 07:48:04 'b works ,it's a minum error in my book 07:48:23 minum? 07:48:32 a minor bug 07:48:37 do you understand the difference? 07:48:49 what book? what compiler? 07:49:08 arguably it could be that cmucl and sbcl could be buggy, but i'd be way out of my league to make such a claim 07:49:53 yeah, all of cmucl, sbcl, ccl and acl are buggy in such a fundamental thing. 07:51:53 em ,that is probably a legacy difference in implementions .the author specify hhis cl is clisp 07:52:06 and I have a sbcl 07:52:28 chenbing: and in your sbcl, you see the error that you've pasted? 07:52:48 H4ns: the paste is clear 07:53:03 chenbing: restart your sbcl, try without slime. 07:54:25 H4ns: well that's highly unlikely, so i am not going to make that claim, but i am wondering how come lists in a literal array are implicitly quoted... 07:55:08 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-141-20.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:55:45 H4ns,the sbcl only procede well 07:56:08 eMBee: however it comes, it is safe to assume that this is the way it is meant to be if all compilers except chenbing's treat it that way. this is not some corner case. 07:56:49 chenbing: ok. so you now know that the problem is not the book or the compiler, but something in your environment. 07:57:20 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:57:58 good morning 07:58:12 H4ns: if there are two styles in this issure,which you prefer? 07:58:20 chenbing: ? 07:58:37 two code style when meeting my case 07:59:15 chenbing: i don't know what case you're talking about. 08:01:42 H4ns: of course 08:04:03 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.4.64] has joined #lisp 08:05:53 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:06:52 It's a strange bug in environment .slime is almost essential 08:08:47 -!- hba [~hba@189.229.226.57] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:11:45 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:34 Bahman [~Bahman@2.146.44.190] has joined #lisp 08:18:41 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-90-77.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:18:41 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-90-77.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 08:18:41 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 08:18:55 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:20:25 e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-uyfsfmqhzhqvytsd] has joined #lisp 08:22:16 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:22:16 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:24:31 dacoda [~user@gate.cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:24:32 anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has joined #lisp 08:25:40 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:37:13 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.76] has joined #lisp 08:37:13 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.76] has quit [Changing host] 08:37:13 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 08:39:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:40:48 good morning everyone 08:41:25 superflit [~superflit@71-208-200-173.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:05 hi Blkt 08:44:33 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-31-220.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:36 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 08:45:42 Hi Blkt 08:45:44 ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has joined #lisp 08:47:37 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 08:48:01 -!- DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@75-163-225-197.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: DaDaDosPrompt] 08:49:28 easyE [lWpQ9VBVLY@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 08:50:12 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:53:08 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:53:41 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-217-254.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:04 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.111.128] has joined #lisp 08:57:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:57:52 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-217-254.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:58:19 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:00:38 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 09:01:36 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:02:03 udzinari [user@nat/ibm/x-wviulkduktfhnurr] has joined #lisp 09:02:47 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:03:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:10:41 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-43-248.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.5] has joined #lisp 09:11:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.5] has quit [Changing host] 09:11:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:16:46 hi 09:17:09 hi there 09:19:54 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:19:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:21:08 araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has joined #lisp 09:21:08 -!- araujo 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[~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:39:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.39.71] has joined #lisp 09:39:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.39.71] has quit [Changing host] 09:39:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:39:51 tcr1 [~tcr@95-88-46-7-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:40:47 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-84-232.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:41:17 Hey guys! Thanks for the great time at ECLM. 09:41:45 -!- tcr1 is now known as tcr 09:43:04 hi tcr :) 09:44:18 xan_ [~xan@75.Red-95-122-109.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:30 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-82-121.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:33 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:52:33 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:53:43 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-kggqutessxzkvbxz] has joined #lisp 09:55:21 -!- p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-sopvvfspgyaovobb] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:56:06 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:57:28 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:57:39 snearch [~snearch@g231235178.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:00:25 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5B326ABF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:00:40 daniel_ [~daniel@p50829FDE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:04:08 oudeis [~oudeis@1-65-215-046.static.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 10:05:51 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:09:23 Soulman [~knute@175.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:10:55 -!- gko [~gko@111.81.247.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:11:02 -!- drdo [~drdo@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:11:16 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-84-232.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:11:42 sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-84-232.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 10:12:34 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 10:14:47 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:16:28 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:39 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@109.239.37.119] has joined #lisp 10:17:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@109.239.37.119] has quit [Changing host] 10:17:39 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:22:46 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:25:38 p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-lumwvogrtzqljppv] has joined #lisp 10:26:37 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:27:13 -!- tiglog [~topeak@61.149.229.49] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:27:31 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 10:28:14 -!- udzinari [user@nat/ibm/x-wviulkduktfhnurr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:29:03 udzinari [user@nat/ibm/x-sidkvdwnezeniekk] has joined #lisp 10:33:49 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:34:04 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 10:36:35 troydm [~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm] has joined #lisp 10:36:48 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.2.203] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:36:51 Is it possible to "insert" into a bidirectional file, instead of overwriting contents? 10:37:15 -!- udzinari [user@nat/ibm/x-sidkvdwnezeniekk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:37:29 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-31-250.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:37:47 H4ns_ [57a9e3da@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.169.227.218] has joined #lisp 10:38:01 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 10:38:14 Bahman: not straightforwardly 10:38:43 Bahman: and bidirectionality of a file is not really relevant 10:39:05 jdz: I guessed so. So I better append what I'd like or put them in a new file. 10:39:06 Thanks. 10:39:35 Bahman: the behaviour of files is not really lisp-specific 10:40:02 -!- H4ns [5b3d5d1a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.93.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:40:09 jdz: Yes...I thought there might a be a function that facilitates this weird requirement :-) 10:40:43 Bahman: those things you are looking for are called "databases" 10:40:48 Bahman: yes there are: READ-SEQUENCE and WRITE-SEQUENCE 10:41:16 funnily enough, MS Office binary formats also had this ability 10:42:30 if structures in your file format can contain file offsets, then you can overwrite a number in the file to point to new data appended at the end 10:43:02 Phoodus: Office formats evolved over time into what was essentially a mini-filesystem 10:44:20 OccupyRectum [OccupyRect@yummy.coolwhip.org] has joined #lisp 10:44:57 Well, there are no structures...I'm just learning Lisp and thought I'd better define some exercises for myself to learn the language. I was thinking about a program to read 2nd degree polynomial coefficients from a file (one polynomial per line) and write the answers in the same file in the same line. 10:45:27 jdz: WRITE-SEQUENCE "inserts" into a stream? 10:45:38 Bahman: no 10:45:40 I guess just like every computational program will contain a ad-hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of CommonLisp, I guess every storage metaphor eventually converges on the same re a database 10:45:53 has anybody seen the new Freenode TOS? 10:46:00 -!- OccupyRectum is now known as LinuxNerd 10:46:03 Bahman: but it can be used to move the contents of a file so that there is space to "insert" new content 10:46:09 Bahman: just write into a new file 10:46:16 jdz: I got it. Thanks. 10:46:27 Bahman: more sensible, less crazy etc. 10:46:29 yeah, listen to p_l. Writing a new file is safer and easier 10:46:48 Unless all you have is 2kB and your program already took 1.5 10:46:50 p_l: Now I will do so. But I have to "explore" the library, you know. 10:47:20 http://blog.feenode.net/2011/Proposed-TOS-Modifications 10:47:24 there they are 10:47:28 it changes what is offtopic 10:47:33 and how channels should be run 10:47:37 interesting stuff 10:47:40 LinuxNerd: go away 10:47:44 -!- H4ns_ is now known as H4ns 10:47:55 Bahman: I recommend some of the old Unix books. Also, The Art of Unix Programming, whatever one thinks about ESR, is quite good in language-agnostic patterns 10:48:23 (patterns outside of language scope, like external protocols including files) 10:48:47 Thanks. 10:49:41 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:50:27 also... don't read too much on mental disorders on Wikipedia. Just a general suggestion... :| 10:51:08 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:51:46 p_l: link? 10:52:53 gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:22 flip214: to what? Art of unix programming is sadly a dead-tree book, last time I checked 10:54:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant_personality_disorder <--- and this for last recommendation, though definitely not first nor last related to it 10:54:40 thanks ... that's what I meant 10:55:10 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 10:55:21 it's better to visit a specialist rather than get a self-diagnosis through wikipedia 10:55:40 our introspection model is fundamentally broken 10:55:55 p_l: but in wikipedia there's so much to choose from! everything for everybody .. 10:56:30 p_l: but only the software introspection ... hardware can be looked at with a knife and 1-2 mirrors 10:56:59 flip214: yes, but we have problems on microprogram debugging 10:57:40 and our analysers are too slow for micro analysis instead of macro 10:58:31 p_l: regarding introspection ... it's easier to make a copy and look at that, ie. have kids and watch their behaviour compared to other children 10:58:57 as kids take much of their behaviour from the parents this seems to be a nice, easy indicator 10:58:57 flip214: that's not introspection, and they are actually wildly different 10:59:10 flip214: how many kids do you have, again? 10:59:27 Introspection in general died as part of psychology becoming a hard science 10:59:37 -!- LinuxNerd [OccupyRect@yummy.coolwhip.org] has quit [K-Lined] 11:00:25 *p_l* reminds himself to finally see if he could track that awesome neuropsychology prof from his first year and check if there's a chance of learning a bit more about certain problems in vision pipeline 11:02:34 still, psychology, at least the bran taught at my uni, is quite useful to include in CS curriculum in first year, IMHO 11:03:23 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 11:03:39 due to insistence of teaching us proper experimental methods and such. Quite useful when tracking performance (I don't think anyone mentioned profilers in CS curriculum, though...) 11:05:36 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 9.0/20111109112850]] 11:07:18 -!- billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:07:32 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@1-65-215-046.static.netvigator.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:08:30 peterhil` [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has joined #lisp 11:09:10 killerboy [~mateusz@wifi-out.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 11:10:41 is a (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (86029)) a sequence? 11:11:01 ah. it is. thank you. 11:14:38 earlgray [~Adium@195.238.93.36] has joined #lisp 11:16:50 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:18:15 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:19:37 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qlptegulrrdhskft] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:25:03 billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has joined #lisp 11:28:16 klineme [klineme@protected.chanfix.eu] has joined #lisp 11:29:01 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 11:29:20 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 11:29:23 -!- earlgray [~Adium@195.238.93.36] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:29:57 earlgray [~Adium@195.238.93.36] has joined #lisp 11:30:15 that was very specific 11:31:14 -!- alunihil [~chatzilla@111-252-211-231.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]] 11:32:03 lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:30 -!- klineme [klineme@protected.chanfix.eu] has quit [K-Lined] 11:37:20 -!- lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has left #lisp 11:40:22 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@wifi-out.sdu.dk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:40:40 killerboy [~mateusz@wifi-out.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 11:49:54 ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:28 -!- MjrTom [MjrTom@azureus/MjrTom] has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:52:29 MjrTom_ [MjrTom@azureus/MjrTom] has joined #lisp 11:52:42 -!- MjrTom_ is now known as MjrTom 11:57:44 chenbing [~user@125.118.7.72] has joined #lisp 11:57:45 -!- chenbing [~user@125.118.7.72] has left #lisp 11:58:05 chenbing [~user@125.118.7.72] has joined #lisp 11:58:56 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:00:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:00:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-120-2.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:00:35 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.135.138] has joined #lisp 12:00:58 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:35 drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has joined #lisp 12:03:25 -!- drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:05:52 oudeis [~oudeis@110.4.12.64] has joined #lisp 12:07:16 drdo [~drdo@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:13:01 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:13:16 vervic [~vervic@e213-084.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 12:16:26 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.39.71] has joined #lisp 12:23:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.39.71] has quit [Changing host] 12:23:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:26:23 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 12:26:50 hi 12:29:07 H4ns: well, my kids are described as nice, polite, etc., so there's something that works for us ... perhaps it's just my wife, though ;) 12:30:43 flip214: i see. i don't (and can't) see my kids being "copies" of myself, but maybe that is just me. 12:31:34 H4ns: well, that was meant being funny ... of course they're no 1:1 copies, but I tried to reference RCU 12:32:36 whate is RCU? 12:36:32 how to denote a SPC in function position ,(position #\ str) doesn't compiled because compile recognize ' src' as a Overall 12:36:44 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-31-220.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:39:05 # 12:39:07 # 12:39:14 #\Space 12:39:16 #\Space (gnaaa - sorry) 12:39:26 That's a good gensym. 12:40:01 flip214, H4ns: greetings and felicitations 12:40:27 chenbing: read-copy-update 12:40:45 H4ns: thank you and Xach I was able to build a state machine to scan a netlist file 12:41:56 problem now is different, it is possible to call a Lisp program from a scheme one? 12:42:50 Posterdati: Write a scheme interpreter in CL :P 12:43:08 Posterdati: wrong channel. ask in #scheme 12:43:14 oh, the other way round... 12:43:37 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.238.15] has joined #lisp 12:43:51 gensym: I've got a program, gschem, that uses scheme (guile) as scripting language... 12:44:50 sedena [sedena@unix.gentoo.name] has joined #lisp 12:48:56 -!- ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:49:00 -!- Cloud_ [~cbolano@187.193.181.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:50:35 ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:05 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:59:01 iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:53 ema 13:01:45 -!- ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:01:52 -!- sedena [sedena@unix.gentoo.name] has quit [K-Lined] 13:06:29 knob [~knob@genesis.ballesterhermanos.com] has joined #lisp 13:06:32 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 13:06:47 Good morning everyone =) 13:07:47 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:10:00 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:34 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:13:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-120-2.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:14:33 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:15:10 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:15:12 ehu_ [~erik@62.140.137.131] has joined #lisp 13:15:44 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:17:37 -!- vervic [~vervic@e213-084.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has left #lisp 13:20:35 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007116.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 13:22:20 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:23:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@109.239.37.119] has joined #lisp 13:23:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@109.239.37.119] has quit [Changing host] 13:23:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:24:35 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007116.public.telering.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:25:07 Morning knob! 13:25:21 -!- agumonkey [~agu@151.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:25:54 Is it possible to deconstruct a list in function arguments? Like (defun foo ((x1 x2) y) .... ) 13:26:05 Bahman: no. 13:26:12 Bahman: macro lambda lists can destructure, though. 13:26:25 Xach: Thanks. 13:26:39 and DESTRUCTURING-BIND 13:26:40 Bahman: for a function, you'd need to use (destructuring-bind (x1 x2) x ...) or similar in the body 13:31:22 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:39:44 Bahman: the metabang!-bind package is very powerful... 13:40:33 gensym: Will keep that name in mind. For now I'm just a rookie and don't know how to deal with packages. Thanks. 13:42:40 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:43:19 -!- MjrTom [MjrTom@azureus/MjrTom] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:46:09 ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:13 MjrTom [MjrTom@azureus/MjrTom] has joined #lisp 13:50:35 tyson1 [~Ian@bas1-toronto06-2925210720.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:50:47 -!- earlgray [~Adium@195.238.93.36] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:55:59 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:56:03 bsod1 [~sinan@141.196.20.202] has joined #lisp 13:58:32 -!- alesguzik [~alesguzik@195.222.85.160.altoros.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:05 dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-xitfrwzsccptfvcq] has joined #lisp 14:04:02 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05:56 *Neronus* contemplates using CL in his PhD thesis 14:06:21 Neronus: make it so 14:06:38 no reason not to 14:07:25 That would mean two years of lisp. sounds like fun 14:08:53 If you use Lisp, you will finish in just four months! 14:09:23 is there any CL systems about i18n Date & Calendar 14:09:41 Xach: Want to bet? ;) 14:09:52 -!- xan_ [~xan@75.Red-95-122-109.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:10:22 nicdev_ [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:18 *Xach* wonders about a trip to Kyoto next october 14:12:39 It's a classic culture center 14:13:10 There will be a Lisp conference there 14:13:19 I do so enjoy Lisp conferences! 14:13:29 em ...good 14:13:35 where are u in Xach 14:14:37 There is no 'u' in Xach. 14:14:38 Kyoto is pretty. I had a good time visiting there. 14:15:01 chenbing: I am in the U S of A 14:15:28 birthplace of Lisp! 14:15:29 Xach: but where is the u? 14:15:40 the u is in florida 14:16:06 lucky u 14:16:46 em,wish Macarthy will be in heaven quietly 14:17:38 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:18:13 i wish people would keep their heaven bullishit to themselves 14:19:19 jdz: that's a lot of hostility you've got there 14:19:23 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 14:19:41 dlowe: nope, no hostility at all. 14:20:11 jdz: then perhaps you'd like to rephrase to be less hostile 14:21:11 dlowe: 1) this is offtopic, and 2) i don't see any hostility 14:21:33 centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-172-67.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:52 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.205.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:22:07 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:50 G'morning all. 14:23:45 jdz: That reminds me of the Deep Thought: "Laurie was offended when I used the word 'puke', but to me, that's what her dinner tasted like." 14:24:18 nyef: Are you going to ILC 2012 in kyoto? Trying to work out carpool opportunities. 14:24:34 I'm afraid not, sorry. 14:25:16 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:25:38 they drive on the wrong side of the road there, so better carpool with locals anyway 14:25:52 haha 14:26:44 rstandy` [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:29:11 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:29:44 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.4.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:29:50 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.219.152] has joined #lisp 14:30:01 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:30:19 hi 14:31:00 please I'm reading a sexp data from file and I've got (COMMON-LISP-USER::PROBE :NAME "voltage" :CLASS "voltage-probe" :NODES-LIST 14:31:00 ("N1" "N2" "N3" "N4" "N10")))) 14:31:15 how can I strip COMMON-LISP-USER:: ? 14:31:19 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 14:31:28 Bind *PACKAGE* appropriately before reading or before printing, whichever. 14:31:38 Posterdati: use a keyword symbol (:probe) instead of ('probe) 14:32:00 Or use ~A instead of ~S if you're just looking for cleaner displayed output. 14:32:22 nyef: I'm currenty using quickpackage 14:32:42 sorry 14:32:44 I don't know anything about quickpackage. 14:32:49 quickproject 14:32:54 Or quickproject. 14:33:04 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@wifi-out.sdu.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:33:10 Posterdati: you mean quickpascal, I believe 14:33:22 flip214: no, quickproject 14:33:29 http://lmgtfy.com/?q=quickpascal 14:33:30 ... Heh. I miss turbo pascal. 14:33:38 Posterdati: when writing code to a file programatically, i usually start the file with a correct in-package declaration 14:33:45 nyef: perhaps the environment, not the language 14:34:06 Yes, though the language wasn't horrible either. 14:34:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 14:34:24 madnificent: (in-package :circuit-solver) 14:34:39 Posterdati: do you understand how symbols are read? 14:34:47 madnificent: this is my project start, have I to include cl? 14:35:04 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:35:07 Xach: do you mean sexp expressions in the file? 14:35:13 -!- tyson1 [~Ian@bas1-toronto06-2925210720.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:35:17 Posterdati: you'll likely want to include common-lisp in your defpackage form, yes 14:35:24 what's the easy way to override quicklisps project path? Ie. I've got some project in local-projects (stable), but would like to use the one in ./ (unstable) 14:35:33 Posterdati: I mean what I say. Do you understand how symbols are read? 14:35:42 madnificent: I put (:use #:cl) 14:35:52 Xach: no 14:35:56 asdf:*central-registry* is not enough 14:36:03 flip214: remove the one in local-projects. 14:36:12 ouch ... 14:36:33 is renaming to a .abc name sufficient? 14:36:50 ie. starting with a dot? (unix "hidden" semantic) 14:36:51 Posterdati: when the reader sees a symbol that has no package prefix, e.g. "foo", it consults the value of cl:*package* to determine in which package to intern the symbol. 14:36:54 flip214: no. 14:36:58 hmrpf 14:37:11 *madnificent* pokes Xach about something like a .quickignore file (related to flip214) 14:37:13 Xach: ok 14:37:25 -!- ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:37:45 or, better yet, some way to specify a search list ... ie. ./, then ~/quicklisp/local-projects, etc 14:38:04 flip214: if that'd be in a special variable, it could be rather sexy 14:38:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:38:11 what is a * ,it's a action ? 14:38:21 chenbing: * is a symbol. 14:38:27 madnificent: yes ... how about ql:*central-registry* ? 14:38:40 * madnificent pokes Xach about... 14:38:49 chenbing: yes, that is an irc action. 14:39:12 Xach: renaming the local-projects folder works, too, but is a bit heavier ... 14:39:54 Xach: ok I understood 14:40:25 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:41:19 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:46:19 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:47:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 14:49:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@109.239.37.119] has joined #lisp 14:49:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@109.239.37.119] has quit [Changing host] 14:49:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:51:14 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.117] has quit [Quit: Offline] 14:52:08 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.135.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:53:52 zmv [~daniel@c9533879.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 14:55:25 rstandy`` [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:57:00 -!- rstandy` [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:00:29 incandenza [u726@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mnldqopmbfopmxxh] has joined #lisp 15:01:12 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.177.237] has joined #lisp 15:01:13 Xach: so read expect that sexp are package related? 15:01:17 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-172-67.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:05:19 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:05:45 earlgray [~Adium@195.238.93.36] has joined #lisp 15:06:43 Posterdati: you are reading a form that contains symbols. Interned symbols must have a package. 15:06:46 Posterdati: whan READ reads a string that it recognizes as a symbol name, it calls INTERN on that string. that's all 15:06:53 (you don't want uninterned symbols) 15:07:27 #:yes-i-do-want-uninterned-symbols 15:08:01 :|O RLY| 15:08:07 Ralith: no, I'm reading plain text sexp 15:08:11 jdz2 [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 15:08:37 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:08:42 Posterdati: What is a plain text sexp? 15:08:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:09:19 Xach (name arg1 arg2 arg3 ... argn) 15:09:33 Posterdati: Do you know what a symbol is? 15:09:39 Posterdati: "plain text sexp" is nonsense. you are reading textual representation of a sexp. sexps are objects. the difference between objects and representations is very important to internalize. perhaps you want to read a nice book 15:10:36 Xach: 'test 'antani 15:10:44 Xach: are symbols 15:11:18 Posterdati: "'test"is a string representation of a symbol named "TEST" 15:11:47 Posterdati: those are lists. 15:12:23 -!- jdz2 [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has left #lisp 15:12:56 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.135.138] has joined #lisp 15:13:47 Posterdati: "A gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" might be useful to read 15:14:06 gensym: ... 15:14:45 roflmao 15:15:30 -!- tcr [~tcr@95-88-46-7-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:16:48 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-104-167.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:17:10 Posterdati: read also http://l1sp.org/cl/2.3.4 15:17:31 Posterdati: and http://l1sp.org/cl/2.3 15:17:50 ok 15:18:46 ; caught WARNING: function called with one argument, but wants exactly eleven thousand four hundred seventy-six 15:18:54 That is a new one for me 15:19:03 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:19:10 is Structure (defstruct) useful in lisp software development? 15:19:15 chenbing: yes. 15:19:17 cmm: "'test" is a string representation of a list with two symbols, whose names are "QUOTE" and "TEST" 15:19:49 This is not a pipe. 15:20:34 jdz: right, sorry 15:20:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.39.71] has joined #lisp 15:20:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.39.71] has quit [Changing host] 15:20:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:21:18 chenbing: It's useful, but the usual advice is to default to using a defclass, and only use defstruct when you actually need something that it does and defclass doesn't. 15:22:39 nyef: yep my implicitiy reference to clos 15:22:51 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:58 thank you guys , see you tomorrow 15:23:43 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:45 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 15:27:59 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:30:22 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 15:30:47 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-208-200-173.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:30:54 superflit [~superflit@71-208-200-173.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:43 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 15:34:48 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.100.40.123] has joined #lisp 15:34:50 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: work?] 15:35:43 TDT [~user@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 15:35:46 -!- rstandy`` [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:36:15 xan_ [~xan@94.Red-88-12-35.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:26 ThomasH [468228d8@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:37:42 Greetings lispers 15:38:21 pers [~user@96-25-162-104.gar.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:16 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-adbmxqdmugzehdix] has quit [Quit: gone] 15:40:25 nyef: i am still learning on clos, any pointer on where i could get 15:40:25 examples or just general exposure of situations where defstruct will be 15:40:26 better than defclass 15:41:11 1.) When you need unboxed slots (certain implementations only). 2.) When you need to overlay structured accessors on a list or a vector. 15:41:25 3.) When you are operating in an environment without CLOS. 15:42:02 Hi ThomasH 15:42:15 4.) When you have obscenely tight performance requirements and profiling has indicated slot access to be a bottleneck. 15:42:20 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42:23 I've been operating under the philosophy that it is easier to develop using classes and then switch to structures. 15:42:27 Hello LiamH 15:42:29 Those are the main reasons to use structs. 15:42:31 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1176449587.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:42:45 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.219.152] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 15:42:45 ThomasH: I am getting a warning when I load lisp-unit, to the effect the "Draft" is not an acceptable version number. Do you know why? 15:43:01 Yeah, it's far easier to develop using classes. Primarily because classes have redefinition semantics. 15:43:03 ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 15:43:10 LiamH: Yes, that is an ASDF thing, looks like they are imposing what used to just be a convention. 15:43:55 LiamH: I've actually been trying to convert my ASDF forms that have Draft in the version to an actual number. Lisp-unit has gotten any love lately, so it fell through the cracks. 15:44:23 ThomasH: OK, not a big deal, just wondering what was going on. 15:44:38 nyef: well, those are valid reasons. the main reasons why people use structs is their laziness. 15:44:38 Hmm, I wasn't aware of this, but maybe this is worth asking while I'm debugging this. If we have a list, and use apply on that list (apply #'min ..), and assign it to another variable - the list passed into apply should not be modified, right? 15:45:18 TDT: you mean "by the function that is called"? then no, it won't be modified. 15:45:19 H4ns: Right. 15:45:52 nyef: My thinking on class -vs- struct was that once the class hierarchy settled down and I had a need to convert to struct for whatever reason, I could. But, I've never actually gotten to that point and have started wondering if the conversion is more work than I'm anticipating. 15:46:11 I have a project where I started with just lists, wrapped them up into structs, converted them from list-structs to normal structs, and then had to convert to classes in order to get redefinition semantics. 15:47:07 H4ns: This behavior I'm getting is very interesting then. Basically I have a let* statement, where I define a list, then a generate the minimum number, maximum number, and median value from the list and assign those into other variables. Later, I have a format that prints out the list, and that list changes if I have the minimum/maximum/median based operations commented out. Still debugging this, but it's very weird 15:47:09 ThomasH: Yes, once the class hierarchy has settled down and you have need, then you can, but getting to that point should be unusual. 15:47:38 TDT: You're doing destructive operations somewhere? 15:48:18 Xach: so, if I got a list of symbols '(a b c d e f g h) 15:48:27 Posterdati: that is a list of lists. 15:48:32 Well, a symbol and a list. 15:48:34 nyef: shouldn't be, but it has to be something like that. I'm hoping to get a test case of this generated that's a little simpler than what I'm doing that still breaks. 15:48:54 Xach: should I add the package? '(pack:a pack:b ... ) 15:49:17 TDT: Well, go over your operations, and see if any of them can mutate list structure. 15:49:19 Posterdati: What do you want to get as the result? 15:49:27 Xach: (member a '(a b c d e f)) 15:49:34 Posterdati: in what package is A defined? 15:49:37 ups, LDB 15:49:38 Interned, rather. 15:49:39 Posterdati: it would be for your own good if you stopped using the quote reader macro, and used QUOTE explicitly 15:50:20 Xach: a b c are classes defined in a package say "pack" 15:50:51 Posterdati: you can bind CL:*PACKAGE* around the call to CL:READ if you want the A in the file to EQ PACK::A. 15:51:13 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.177.237] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:51:21 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-147-52.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:51:42 Xach: I got nil if I (member a '(a b c d e f)) 15:52:01 Posterdati: that seems fairly unlikely. 15:52:41 mmmh 15:54:00 Posterdati: I would expect that, your quoting. The first a is evaluated to the class, then compared against a symbol. 15:54:37 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:54:38 D'oh. 15:54:43 Posterdati: and always use earmuffs for varibales, even when testing stuff in repl 15:54:49 for special variables, that is 15:55:06 DAMMIT, *you're* 15:55:07 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-147-52.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:55:18 I've made the error twice, recently. 15:55:20 -!- earlgray [~Adium@195.238.93.36] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:55:40 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0/20111104165243]] 15:55:43 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 15:55:52 ThomasH: even with "you're", the sentence does not make much sense to me... 15:55:52 *ThomasH* drinks more coffee 15:56:48 X-Scale [email@89.180.165.83] has joined #lisp 15:56:55 jdz: Feel free to correct or clarify it, then. My translation from thinking to typing is not always perfect. 15:57:09 -!- X-Scale [email@89.180.165.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:57:14 ok, when i bend over like this (you don't see me bending over) i can make sense out ofit. 15:57:45 Ah, I see. 15:58:07 Posterdati: what's the value of variable a? 15:58:32 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.177.237] has joined #lisp 15:58:46 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:07 H4ns: I'm leaning back to having Toot store the request-uri as a puri:uri 15:59:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:01:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:02:03 jdz: is the output of read 16:02:13 -!- jsarrel [~jsarrel@66-191-161-122.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com] has quit [Quit: I'm outta here!] 16:02:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 16:02:44 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-24-216-51.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:03:11 Posterdati: I thought 'a' was a class. 16:03:26 referencing 16:03:47 ThomasH: read get a sexp from a file 16:04:12 Posterdati: is it a symbol? 16:04:23 jdz: yes 16:04:47 Posterdati: prove it? 16:04:52 Posterdati: Alright, my comment still applies. 'a' references whatever object you received from READ and then compares it with each symbol in your list. 16:04:59 Posterdati: (write-to-string a) 16:05:00 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-21-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:05:01 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-77.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:05:12 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:27 Posterdati: Try (member a (list a b c d e f g)) 16:05:31 (write-to-string 'netlist) 16:05:31 "NETLIST" 16:05:43 Posterdati: wtf, that's not the same as (write-to-string a0 16:05:46 *) 16:06:10 Posterdati: Think about what jdz just wrote. 16:06:23 (write-to-string netlist) -> symbol not defined 16:06:51 Posterdati: Can you paste? 16:06:53 an example 16:06:56 Posterdati: are you trolling? i asked you to give the result of (write-to-string a); where do you get the "netlist" thing in there? 16:07:08 jdz: ok 16:07:14 jdz: a was an example 16:07:28 I don't see trolling, just confusion and poor communication. 16:07:51 ThomasH: I'm pasting the code 16:08:02 A concrete example pasted would go a long ways to clarifying the problem and solution. 16:08:13 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:09:03 ThomasH, jdz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125855 16:10:09 ThomasH: read-netlist just return nil, even it worked before I defined packages for my project :( 16:10:15 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-31-250.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:11:01 Soulman1 [~knute@175.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:11:10 ThomasH: objectify creates a list of objects starting from sexp in the file 16:11:12 Posterdati: reading stuff into random packages is not a good thing to do, in general 16:11:57 Posterdati: your problem apparently is that the value of *package* at the time of invocation of read-netlist is not the same as the package read-netlist function is defined in 16:11:57 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@219.136.212.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:11:58 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.212.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:12:13 -!- Soulman [~knute@175.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:12:16 Posterdati: assuming the other code works 16:12:18 jdz: ok, what shoudl I do? 16:12:30 jdz: it worked before 16:12:33 gaidal_ [~gaidal@219.136.212.93] has joined #lisp 16:12:40 gigamonk`: that i like 16:12:41 gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.212.93] has joined #lisp 16:12:42 Posterdati: bind *package* around the call to read (or around with-open-file) 16:12:56 Posterdati: that's what i meant when i sead "into random packages" 16:13:17 jdz: ok, please what do you mean for "bind *package*"? 16:13:23 Posterdati: you are not specifying what package to read into, so whatever value is bound to *package* at the time of invocation is used 16:13:34 Posterdati: Use LET. 16:13:45 jdz: like cl:read = 16:13:46 jdz: like cl:read ? 16:13:49 (let ((*package* (find-package ))) (do stuff)) 16:13:59 jdz: ah 16:14:52 jdz: (let ((*package* (find-package :circuit-solver))) ...) ? 16:16:48 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 16:18:07 jdz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125855#1 16:18:12 Hi all, I am trying to retrieve the max depth of a directory (directory "X:/**/*.*") for example, but I don't want to save it into a variable; is there wa way that I directlt direct it to a file without clobbering the memory ? 16:18:29 Posterdati: If I understand it correctly now, you are trying to de-serialize a bunch of objects from a file? 16:18:41 Recursively. 16:19:06 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-104-167.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:19:11 Posterdati: And you've already decided that one of the several libraries that does this is not applicable? 16:19:43 ThomasH: righ 16:19:44 ThomasH: right 16:20:21 ThomasH: I don't even know Lisp... So I decide to keep it simple as possible 16:20:45 ThomasH: anyway (let ((*package*) (find-package ... ) didn't work 16:21:19 Posterdati: Ok, I'm thinking some more. 16:21:30 Posterdati: did not work how? 16:21:32 Posterdati: did you type it properly? 16:21:45 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125855#1 16:21:59 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@2.129.193.3] has joined #lisp 16:22:08 (find-package :circuit-solver) 16:22:08 # 16:22:09 Posterdati: did you read the description of with-standard-io-syntax? 16:22:15 Posterdati: it binds CL:*PACKAGE*. 16:22:21 Posterdati: you just undid your binding with it. 16:23:00 Xach: nice catch that one. 16:23:01 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:23:16 It's the second time I've seen that same error in the past few weeks. 16:23:19 Nyef: are bots stable now? It's a bug in cl-irc. 16:23:33 ehu_: I haven't seen evidence that they aren't. 16:23:34 Fixed it yesterday. 16:23:40 earlgray [~Adium@195.238.93.36] has joined #lisp 16:23:40 ehu_: So, what had to change? 16:23:48 i wonder why the WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX is even there.. 16:24:04 Probably accepted some well-meaning soul's advice without thinking about it. 16:24:21 The namreply message hook took the wrong argument as the channel 16:25:09 Meaning it could look up all it wanted, but wouldn't ever match 16:26:02 Xach: I understood, thanks 16:26:43 Xach: WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX was the problem :) 16:26:49 Ahh. 16:27:36 rstandy [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:28:57 drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:12 ehu_: have you emailed cl-irc-devel@common-lisp.net? 16:29:43 dlowe: no, not yet. 16:29:48 dlowe: why? 16:30:06 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:17 ehu: it'd probably get more action than an irc bug report 16:30:33 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest74560 16:30:35 dlowe: I *am* cl-irc-devel :-) 16:30:56 -!- Guest74560 is now known as X-Scale 16:31:10 as in, all I need to do is backport the change and commit it. 16:31:33 ehu: okay, I misunderstood the context of what you were saying 16:31:53 np. 16:31:54 I was fixing the bots. 16:31:54 they were unstable. 16:32:04 it wasn't - at first - apparent that it was a cl-irc bug 16:32:21 now that I've fixed the cl-irc bug, it turns out that it was indeed. 16:32:27 because they seem stable again. 16:32:42 ThomasH: :) problem is not solved yet 16:32:49 hm. I should send some cl-irc patches myself 16:32:59 yes! 16:33:01 Posterdati: Oh, I thought you said it was. 16:33:24 ThomasH: :) ... read-netlist returns nil :( 16:33:34 now that I'm working on fixing cl-irc, I can apply more patches, sure. 16:33:38 Xach: TIL that with-standard-io-syntax binds cl:*package*; maybe worth mentioning in lisp tips. 16:34:41 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:35:06 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:35:20 Posterdati: I think you should embrace that "Code is Data is Code" aspect of lisp here. If I understand your representation of the objects in the file, it is not sufficiently different from the actual lisp forms to justify trying to read it the way your are. 16:35:51 *you are*, my typing seems to be degrading. 16:36:17 -!- xan_ [~xan@94.Red-88-12-35.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:37:30 Posterdati: That approach to creating objects looks, and really seems to be, very error prone. 16:37:30 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@219.136.212.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:37:31 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.212.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:37:37 dlowe: Did you patch cl-irc to handle some freenode response codes? I had to 16:38:20 rstandy` [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:38:37 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:38:48 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 16:38:55 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:39:58 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007116.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 16:40:00 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:40:15 antoszka: haven't tried using it on freenod 16:40:20 ThomasH: are there serialization libraries that could write files in a human readable form? 16:40:43 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 16:40:46 dlowe: Ah. Perhaps we could merge the patches for sending upstream. 16:41:02 Posterdati: there is MAKE-LOAD-FORM 16:41:06 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007116.public.telering.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:41:07 antoszka: I think we should just send patches and let ehu sort it out 16:41:07 (unless the upstream is sitting here and willing to deal with me directly :)) 16:41:12 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Client Quit] 16:41:20 ehu: Ah, so you're the author? 16:41:28 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 16:42:20 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:44:17 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:45:00 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@193-64-22-151-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:47:02 -!- gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:15 ThomasH, jdz: solved 16:48:15 Cloud_ [~cbolano@187.193.181.76] has joined #lisp 16:48:43 Posterdati: yeah, solved by twiddling the code until it works. 16:48:55 ThomasH, jdz: I added a format before the function end :) so it was returned the format value :) 16:49:01 or rather: seems to be working 16:49:13 jdz: maybe 16:50:24 Posterdati: looking at MAKE-LOAD-FORM might be useful to you anyway, even if you cannot use it directly. 16:50:34 rstandy`` [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:50:40 jdz: ok, thanks 16:50:43 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:50:49 antoszka: mostly. 16:51:22 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:52:01 -!- rstandy` [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:52:07 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:14 ehu: Where can I send the patches? A pull request in a github project or something of that sort? 16:53:37 Posterdati: Stepped away for a second. I've not used the serialization libraries. I generally find it sufficient just to specify my data using constructors. Glad you got is solved. 16:53:51 gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.214.208] has joined #lisp 16:54:00 gaidal_ [~gaidal@219.136.214.208] has joined #lisp 16:54:44 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 16:55:24 Posterdati: The whole "Code is Data" concept is very convenient. I never do otherwise for my internal coding. The only time I define any sort of DSL, it is for external use. And then, the DSL looks nothing like lisp and I have to parse all of the data. 16:55:39 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:56:36 -!- roadt [~roadt@60.168.94.12] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:57:17 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:58:16 -!- Hypah [~Hypah^@c-71-205-17-71.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:58:26 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:58:26 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:01:36 ThomasH: ok 17:03:12 agumonkey [~agu@151.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:47 Hypah [~Hypah@c-71-205-17-71.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:48 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007116.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 17:07:58 peterhil [~peterhil@193-64-22-232-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 17:11:10 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007116.public.telering.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:11:16 -!- rstandy`` [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:11:20 I am... perturbed. Having originally decided to use postgresql, I now find that using MySQL has a number of advantages. 17:11:43 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.177.237] has quit [Quit: Offline] 17:12:09 What options do I have for hitting MySQL from an SBCL instance? 17:12:36 nyef: what do you like about mysql? 17:12:40 there's a package 17:12:48 That AWS provides it. 17:12:58 That's the ONLY thing I like about MySQL. 17:13:01 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p4FE33B6A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:20 If AWS provided managed postgres, I wouldn't even consider MySQL. 17:13:41 clsql-mysql 17:14:11 oh, there's another one i see now, cl-mysql 17:14:52 antoszka: you can send patches to cl-irc-devel@common-lisp.net 17:15:09 ehu: k, I'll try to get around with that soon. 17:15:12 antoszka: cl-irc still uses a subversion repository. 17:15:18 thanks! 17:15:41 (I'm not the original author, btw, but I did write quite a bit of code in the current code base) 17:15:50 (and: I *am* the current maintainer) 17:16:04 ehu: Can we talk the current maintainer into migrating to git? 17:17:04 nyef: if only something like pomo existed for mysql :( 17:17:08 heh. then the current maintainer has to learn git :-) 17:17:42 ... what's pomo? 17:18:04 postmodern 17:18:05 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 17:18:05 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 17:18:05 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 17:18:12 the postgresql library 17:18:15 Ah, right. 17:18:25 (pomo is actually its package nickname, too) 17:18:31 ThomasH: problem is that Lisp should be learned as first programming language, not after c/c++ :) 17:18:48 Yes, that's what I used when I was actually using a database instead of a list of instances on *whatever-table*. 17:19:02 the cl-mysql page has "Mudballs deployment" under intended feature support. 17:19:26 Posterdati: Heh, my 'Road to Lisp' (for those that recall that page) -> Basic, Fortran, C, C++, Perl, Python, Java, Lisp. 17:19:37 Ouch. 17:19:59 nooooo, asm, c, c++, perl -> lisp 17:20:11 The other thing I note on the cl-mysql page is "you should definitely not choose cl-mysql if you intend your application to connect to more than one database" 17:20:24 My road to lisp: 3 months of python in intro to cs -> CL :D 17:20:26 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:20:32 well maths before all that ofc 17:20:40 lol 17:20:59 nyef: I used CLSQL last year while doing QA for a company that used mysql. 17:21:14 it worked well enough, but it's nowhere near the smooth sexiness of wonderful that is pomo. 17:21:17 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:21:21 and the reader macros can go to hell. 17:21:44 *Xach* tried to talk luke into a "40% time" for lisp hackers at teclo 17:21:49 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1176449587.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:21:51 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007116.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 17:21:54 so tcr can hack more on named-readtables 17:22:56 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-120-2.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:23:29 ThomasH: my road is commodore 64 basic -> commodore 64 m/l -> fortran, amiga pascal, amos, c/c++ -> various cpus and mcus m/l -> c/c++ on linux -> Lisp 17:24:06 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007116.public.telering.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:24:56 well perl->prolog->lisp->hs 17:25:20 ... my road includes experience with TI Explorer macrocode before managing to use lisp in anger. 17:25:28 Xach: did you start programming in Lisp? 17:26:00 nope, he started with blub 17:26:09 lol 17:26:23 Posterdati: No, but I intend to start soon. 17:26:39 Did you know that Yahoo Store was written in Lisp? That is why I admire its elegance. 17:26:40 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:27:08 Xach: Hey, have you seen brucio recently? 17:27:19 *gigamonk`* misses brucio 17:27:22 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 17:27:30 Brucio is an invited speaker to ILC2012 17:27:41 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has joined #lisp 17:27:44 his talk: "Organizational Optimalities: Lessons from the ALU" 17:28:04 Maybe we can get him elected chairman of the board. 17:28:07 i keeed 17:28:12 -!- e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-uyfsfmqhzhqvytsd] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:28:15 Nobody else is as bruciotic as brucio was. 17:29:05 Xach: lol, I mean when you started programming long time ago 17:29:41 Posterdati: Lisp was not the first programming language i used, no. 17:30:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:31:15 marsell [~marsell@120.18.138.19] has joined #lisp 17:33:22 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.238.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 17:34:39 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:36:48 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:36:52 Uh, www.google.com isn't down is it? I seem to be able to reach everything else I try. 17:36:56 -!- Quadresce is now known as Qworkescence 17:37:08 gigamonkey: not down. does https://www.google.com/ work for you? 17:37:08 gigamonkey: Not here 17:37:19 gigamonkey: I've had problems with the non-SSL site taking a long time to do stuff. 17:37:45 Xach: You are Mr. Details today. I hadn't even noticed that that was the URL. 17:38:00 Xach: nope, https also just "Waiting for www.google.com" 17:38:11 gigamonkey: Are you in China? ;-) 17:38:19 Nope. 17:38:34 Time to switch to Bing I guess. ;-) 17:38:43 Oh look, sheepdogs. 17:39:06 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:08 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:39:19 I just saw an article that tried to empirically demonstrate that Bing results were more biased than Google results. 17:40:08 hopefully not related to their lisp use 17:40:50 -!- Cloud_ [~cbolano@187.193.181.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:41:00 Ah, my threat worked. It's back. 17:41:28 The entire global infrastructure had a gc pause 17:44:46 H4ns: is binding *substitution-char* to around the call to #\? form-url-encoded-list-to-alist really The Right Thing? 17:44:47 17:44:57 -!- ehu_ [~erik@62.140.137.131] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:45:03 When parsing the query string into get-parameters? 17:45:25 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:47:30 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.33] has joined #lisp 17:48:01 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:48:35 gigamonkey: let me see 17:49:49 gigamonkey: maybe it is better to throw an error. 17:50:30 Is the url is spec'd to come in in latin-1? 17:50:46 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 17:51:17 -!- hyde____ [~hyde@a88-113-48-212.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:51:32 *researching* 17:53:29 nachtwandler_ [~nachtwand@p4FE33405.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:47 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p4FE33B6A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:57:26 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-104-167.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:57:38 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:58:19 gigamonkey: hm, i can't come up with a good conclusion right now. 17:58:33 Okay. I'll let you know if I figure it out. 17:58:36 gigamonkey: if i remember right, browsers use the encoding of the page. 17:59:22 gigamonkey: i.e. if the html that contained the form was utf-8 encoded, GET parameters will use that same encoding. i've not verified this, though. 17:59:37 (not verified now - i did when i worked on this) 17:59:45 But the HTTP headers are always latin-1 ? 17:59:59 gigamonkey: yes. 18:00:47 So when you say the encoding of the page, do you mean the page containing the form being submitted by a GET? 18:01:04 So there's no way to actually know what the encoding is (what with HTTP being stateless and all that?) 18:01:04 gigamonkey: yes, that is what i meant. 18:01:19 *gigamonkey* hates the web 18:01:22 k9quaint-wk [~k9quaint-@64.197.122.130] has joined #lisp 18:01:28 ehu [~erik@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:01:36 gigamonkey: heads up you have a PCL chapter on the front page of HN http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3234586 18:01:44 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@141.196.20.202] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:28 Vivitron: cool, thanks. 18:02:46 gigamonkey: i'm not sure. maybe browsers send the encoding in the content-type header of a GET request? 18:03:16 H4ns: that would be the sane thing. So probably not what they do. ;-) 18:03:39 gigamonkey: hey, the web has improved a lot! 18:04:19 gigamonkey: regarding binding to port 80, here is a good hint: https://github.com/edicl/hunchentoot/issues/10#issuecomment-2733973 18:05:10 According to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Query_string non-ASCII chars are encoded in UTF-8 before URL encoding. 18:05:52 H4ns: Yes, it has. But I've been hating it a long time. (Since 1994.) 18:06:01 gigamonkey: i saw that, but found no reference backing that. 18:06:15 alex` [~user@p5098fea8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:07:53 jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-92.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:10:36 ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:44 gigamonkey: with unspecified encoding in the form html page, chrome uses latin-1 encoding in GET parameters 18:10:46 H4ns: okay, request-uri is now a puri:uri. 18:10:59 gigamonkey: that's great! 18:15:36 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.111.128] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:55 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.111.128] has joined #lisp 18:16:40 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:18:21 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #lisp 18:18:25 -!- earlgray [~Adium@195.238.93.36] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:21:04 H4ns_ [57a9e3da@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.169.227.218] has joined #lisp 18:23:04 -!- H4ns [57a9e3da@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.169.227.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:24:31 I am beginning to despise the +/- PI branch cut. 18:25:52 gozoner [~ebg@128.149.8.170] has joined #lisp 18:27:56 *austinh* is excited about the distant possibility of going to Kyoto for ILC 2012 18:29:00 Ah, so is 2012 actually going to be in Japan? 18:29:14 gigamonkey: it's official 18:29:42 gigamonkey: hi! 18:29:49 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.135.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:30:01 gigamonkey: are you commuting from Japan? 18:31:08 Posterdati: What? No. I'm in California. 18:31:22 wims- [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has joined #lisp 18:32:17 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@2.129.193.3] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:32:26 rstandy`` [~rastandy@net-2-32-112-176.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 18:32:35 -!- duomo [~duomo@120-dcmp11.goeaston.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:32:51 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:33:56 gigamonkey: :) 18:35:27 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:35:45 gigamonkey: are you in Los Angeles area? 18:36:17 Posterdati: You're not a very discreet stalker. 18:36:45 ThomasH: ? 18:36:56 Posterdati: I kid. 18:36:59 -!- rstandy`` [~rastandy@net-2-32-112-176.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:37:20 ThomasH: no I'm not, to say the truth I'm looking for a job in the US 18:38:19 Posterdati: nope. San Francisco area. 18:38:29 gigamonkey: ok 18:38:29 -!- wims- [~redmundia@mail.madito.es] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (EOF)] 18:39:34 tcr [~tcr@95-88-46-7-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:44:28 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:44:52 cartan- [~cartan@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 18:45:04 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:45:05 -!- ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:47:21 hello. is anyone using web4r? I downloaded the 0.2.9 version that supposedly ships with all the dependencies, but when I try to load it I'm getting: System "inflector" not found. System "sml" not found. System "my-util" not found. 18:48:34 cartan-: I don't think I have heard of anyone using web4r 18:48:43 cartan-: welcome back, by the way! 18:49:56 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:12 thanks. and I see. so what else is other there? I have tried weblocks too, but seems a bit of an overkill for what I want 18:50:20 out there 18:50:37 -!- markskilbeck [~Mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0] 18:51:00 cartan-: hunchentoot with easy-handlers and xhtmlgen or cl-who? 18:51:03 What are you looking for? 18:52:08 I'd like to write my own html and css, web4r seemed like a convinient way to do it with [html [body .. ]] reader macros 18:52:43 cl-who is similar 18:53:30 marsell_ [~marsell@120.18.176.209] has joined #lisp 18:53:33 except that it does not use reader macros, which i'd say is good. 18:53:36 -!- H4ns_ is now known as H4ns 18:53:52 I used cl-markup, huchentoot, and yaclml for my recent web project in CL. 18:55:27 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.138.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:55:28 -!- marsell_ is now known as marsell 18:57:01 kevin__ [~kevin@46.188.212.18] has joined #lisp 18:57:25 I'm using hunchentoot and st-json for my current web project, and will probably wind up throwing in a small pile of other stuff soon. 18:58:07 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-kggqutessxzkvbxz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:59:28 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.176.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:00:54 thanks all for suggestions 19:01:14 hello. I'm pretty new to lisp, and Im wondering in what cases would you save an image and reload it? 19:01:49 Image as in the lisp heap and running application, or image as in jpeg? 19:01:52 instead of just having an asdf system that you loadin every session 19:02:06 kevin__: loading things can sometimes be slow. a saved image starts much more quickly. 19:02:17 Yeah, deployment is about the only real case. 19:02:19 image as a lisp image 19:02:27 marsell [~marsell@120.18.229.223] has joined #lisp 19:02:50 Or if you're setting up a new environment and you KNOW that you always want several modules loaded. 19:02:52 possibly also for convenient distribution 19:03:16 rsynnott: I think that counts as a deployment scenario. 19:03:51 My current environment is based on a saved core with slime and a couple of other things loaded. 19:04:26 I see. so you usually do that at the end of every session while developing? save an image and then reload it next time? 19:04:52 kevin__: i rarely save images 19:04:56 kevin__: I don't think that's a typical mode in Common Lisp. 19:05:05 kevin__: when i restart, i load the systems that i need. 19:07:05 that's what I'm doing now 19:07:23 kevin__: keep doing that! 19:07:55 ok :) 19:08:18 Mmm. Saving an image is a rare event for me, as well. 19:08:34 Far better to just keep long-running instances, and to reload whatever when you need it. 19:08:36 -!- TDT [~user@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:09:02 kevin__: I even do regular 'sanity checks' by saving all my code, restarting the lisp fresh, and recompiling the system. 19:09:17 reloading from time to time is a good way to see whether the code you have on disk corresponds to the code you're running in core (: 19:09:31 would using images to keep state between sessions (instead of using a database) be abusing it? 19:10:04 senj [~senj@S01060026f323bcdf.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:10 kevin__: no. but nowadays, it is rarely useful because computers are fast. 19:10:38 kevin__: in the old days, one would save an image because that'd be faster than reloading the data. might be the case with your data, but maybe not. 19:11:47 kevin__: +1 antifuchs 19:11:53 I have up to 50 or so records (clos objects) that I'd like to store between sessions and I'm not sure what to use. database seems like an overkill 19:12:04 kevin__: write them to a file? 19:12:11 50 at most 19:12:40 You might find it interesting to consider saving an image as roughly corresponding to hibernating a computer (suspend-to-disk). 19:12:43 kevin__: I don't have that many, so this might be too tedious, but I just have a file of constructors with the data. 19:12:45 kevin__: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_mk_l_1.htm 19:12:49 how? I have to serialized them myself? 19:13:18 kevin__: cl-store might do the trick. 19:13:32 kevin__: with make-load-form/make-load-form-saving-slots, it is really easy to hack something together that works 19:13:45 kevin__: There are serialization libraries, check cliki, but for 50 objects, depending on how complicated they are, you could hack up a PRINT-OBJECT to write the file. 19:13:48 *Xach* tried cl-store for the first time last week and was pleased with the ease and utility 19:14:55 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533879.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:16:06 thanks! checking out cl-store and make-load-form 19:16:13 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:16:46 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:35 I forgot to mention I have objects stored in a hash table. does that make any difference in what i should prefer? 19:18:20 kevin__: no. 19:18:22 i could use assoc list to if it could make serialization easier 19:18:52 If you don't have to serialize or load too often, compile-file and load may be good enough. 19:19:37 markskilbeck [~Mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 19:20:11 -!- markskilbeck [~Mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Client Quit] 19:20:38 user (non-programmer) should be able to add and change records so that wouldnt work i think 19:21:23 markskilbeck [~Mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 19:21:25 Posterdati: you should really pick up a good Lisp book such as the ones people have repeatedly recommended to you. 19:21:42 "build a man a fire" sort of situation. 19:22:22 Dodek_ [dodek@nolajf.pl] has joined #lisp 19:22:54 People call me sick when I use that quote. 19:23:12 you seem to be somewhat confused about how READ and indeed some of the basic CL reader macros work, and the easiest way to solve that is by reading a good book. 19:23:20 ThomasH: that's because you get the ending wrong. 19:23:48 -!- Dodek [dodek@nolajf.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:24:10 Ralith: I'm reading PCL, On Lisp, PAIP, Land Of Lisp and the "A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" 19:24:53 Posterdati: you may be aided by picking one (I advise one of the last two, as the others aren't really introductory) and reading it cover to cover. 19:25:00 Ralith: You say potato... 19:26:09 Ralith: AGISC is very simple and straightforward 19:28:02 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 19:29:14 yes, that's why I recommended it or LoL. 19:29:19 may one say that symbols evaluate to themselves? 19:29:25 no. 19:29:30 would you rewrite records every time they are changed (not often), or before quitting? 19:29:40 Ralith: except keywords? 19:29:49 ^ 19:30:05 felideon: except nil :P 19:30:21 Ralith: so what's a definition for symbol? 19:30:39 Posterdati: symbols are a kind of object in Lisp. Period. 19:31:02 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-51-181.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:31:13 Posterdati: file:///home/ralith/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_symbol.htm 19:31:14 er 19:31:17 right that's local now 19:31:23 dammit where's specbot 19:31:25 -!- nowhereman is now known as nowhere_man 19:31:28 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2639.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:31:30 ehehe 19:31:52 sykopomp: a type of data? 19:31:53 Posterdati: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_symbol.htm#symbol 19:31:58 Posterdati: AGISC is simple and straightforward, so take the time to READ IT BACK TO BACK! 19:32:27 oho! my caps lock key ran wild!1elf 19:32:28 nil doesnt evaluate to itself? 19:32:44 H4ns: yes, not so much time at all, but I'll try 19:32:49 Posterdati: correct. It's a type of data. They are used in a variety of situations, and evaluated to different values (which may be the symbol itself by virtue of symbols having values and being values) 19:33:03 gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:04 (...) 19:33:04 -!- tcr [~tcr@95-88-46-7-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:33:20 Posterdati: and add my vote to AGISC 19:33:26 sykopomp: ok, that's what I want to know, they could be evaluated 19:33:37 that vote includes "go read it instead of asking basic questions" 19:33:41 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-51-181.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 19:34:17 ^ 19:34:36 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-51-181.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:34:43 kevin__: I was thinking that symbols evaluate to themselves. Period. 19:35:16 Posterdati: that doesn't make any sense at all, and if you read AGISC you'd probably find out why! 19:36:09 Ralith: probably? 19:36:40 Posterdati: it's not clear that reading has any effect on you 19:36:43 I haven't read AGISC myself so I can't say with certainty that it explains how evaluation works, but I'd be very surprised if it didn't. 19:37:01 -!- ehu [~erik@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:37:03 or what Xach said I suppose :P 19:37:26 Ralith: ok, but it is a 1981 book, that's why I start reading LoL and leave it 19:37:38 right. 19:37:49 lol is newer, so it must be better. 19:37:54 bsod1 [~sinan@141.196.171.163] has joined #lisp 19:38:16 The principia discordia is newer than the king james bible, so it must be better. 19:38:25 no disagreement here. 19:38:41 :D 19:39:00 Then again, the KJV is /bigger/ than the principia... 19:39:19 benny [~benny@i577A3F26.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:39:22 nyef: it's also one screwed up translation with propaganda leanings 19:39:36 -!- kevin__ [~kevin@46.188.212.18] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:39:47 p_l: Which, the principia? 19:39:54 kevin__ [~kevin@46.188.212.18] has joined #lisp 19:39:56 Posterdati: My copy of AGISC says ©1990, and keep in mind that Common Lisp hasn't changed since it became standardised. The basic lessons of the language remain the same. 19:39:58 Don't we have enough religion in Lisp as it is? 19:40:11 nyef: yeah, it's much better in the original inuit. 19:40:15 Posterdati: AGISC isn't going to teach you modern software development practices with Common Lisp. For that, you should use PCL (which is what I read once AGISC was done) 19:40:25 nyef: no, King James Bible 19:40:30 but you'll need the groundwork that AGISC provide to get the most out of PCL. 19:41:02 Vible? 19:41:09 p_l: I figured, but the principia as a screwed up translation with propaganda leanings would have been funnier. 19:41:13 sykopomp: Version. 19:41:35 o 19:41:40 ok people I'll follow your suggestions 19:41:48 thanks 19:42:17 glhf 19:42:25 -!- cartan- [~cartan@76.73.16.26] has left #lisp 19:47:40 earlgray [~Adium@195.238.93.36] has joined #lisp 19:47:50 paul0 [~user@190.193.97.23] has joined #lisp 19:48:20 -!- earlgray [~Adium@195.238.93.36] has quit [Client Quit] 19:49:20 -!- clop2 [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:50:27 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.33] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 19:53:01 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@cpe-74-64-109-53.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:55:26 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:55:32 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:58:08 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.177.237] has joined #lisp 19:59:41 rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has joined #lisp 19:59:47 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 20:00:55 well, starting to learn lisp, probably common lisp.. any suggestion for resources.. books, e-books, etc.. ? 20:01:05 tcr [~tcr@95-88-46-7-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:01:28 minion: tell rvrebane about PCL 20:01:28 rvrebane: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 20:02:18 minion: tell rvrebane about lispmachine 20:02:18 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``lispmachine''. 20:02:26 minion is back? 20:02:35 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@193-64-22-232-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 20:02:35 no. you are dreaming. 20:02:40 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:02:43 rvrebane: Here is a decent introductory reference -> http://www.lispmachine.net/ 20:02:46 superflit_ [~superflit@71-208-200-173.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:55 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-208-200-173.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:02:56 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 20:03:09 ThomasH: Why would you suggest that he learn about lispmachines? 20:03:10 Hm, that wasn't clear, a list of references, not an actual reference itself. 20:03:22 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:03:23 austinh: Don't be fooled by the URL. 20:03:35 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:03:36 ThomasH: Oh, I see. 20:04:40 sweet.. 20:04:57 thanks a lot.. 20:11:15 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.177.237] has quit [Quit: Offline] 20:11:18 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 20:11:26 Instead of saying "Don't be fooled by the URL", I should have said, "Don't read too much into the URL." I have a knack for unintentionally expressing myself in insulting ways. 20:11:32 huangho [~vitor@189.27.229.54.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 20:11:48 peterhil [~peterhil@MMMXCVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 20:12:33 ThomasH: I'm sorry for assuming you were giving wildly inappropriate advice! 20:13:12 omg what is this, #polite? :) 20:13:21 austinh: Thanks! 20:13:22 xan_ [~xan@75.Red-95-122-109.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:47 H4ns: Trying to raise the bar, at least above the belt. 20:15:04 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-92.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:16:06 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:20:13 clop2 [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:23 -!- tcr [~tcr@95-88-46-7-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:23:21 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.69] has joined #lisp 20:28:45 ehu_ [~erik@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:34:44 -!- Dodek_ is now known as Dodek 20:39:14 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-220.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 20:39:36 rvrebane: what knowledge do you have about computers/programming languages so far? 20:39:55 not that i dislike the PCL, but it isn't the definitive answer if you don't have much (or any) background 20:41:10 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 20:41:21 realitygrill [~realitygr@141.215.80.186] has joined #lisp 20:41:27 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:41:30 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-55-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:42:37 umm.. i've learned java, php in college.. and messed around with python and c a little bit.. 20:45:41 ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:25 -!- dacoda [~user@gate.cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:46:26 rvrebane: have you head sicp ? 20:46:27 http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html 20:46:43 -!- huangho [~vitor@189.27.229.54.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:47:08 iwillig: I've tailed it 20:47:21 -!- ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:48:53 ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:05 *heard of 20:49:16 :) 20:49:29 i can't type... turns out 20:51:01 PROPH3CY_ [4636133c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.54.19.60] has joined #lisp 20:51:17 -!- gensym [~user@dslc-082-082-099-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:51:32 hello all! 20:51:53 thanks, iwillig , 20:52:07 could someone suggest some good learning resources to learn lisp for beginners and then move on to the complicated stuff 20:52:25 minion: tell PROPH3CY_ about gentle 20:52:25 PROPH3CY_: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 20:53:03 -!- literal is now known as chiteral 20:53:10 i also heard of emacs lisp, what is that? 20:53:32 PROPH3CY_: that is the extension language of the emacs editor. 20:53:42 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:53:42 PROPH3CY_: http://lmgtfy.com/search?q=emacs+lisp 20:54:03 PROPH3CY_: you don't want to learn that unless you want to use emacs, but if you want to program in lisp, you want to use emacs as well. 20:54:47 if i learn common lisp first, is it easy to learn emacs lisp or are they completley different 20:54:56 PROPH3CY_: Not that unsimilar 20:55:00 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:12 If you don't use Emacs, I'd recommend you try Common Lisp first 20:55:29 i dont know what emacs are so yeah :D 20:55:33 common lisp it is 20:55:41 any other good resources 20:55:42 -!- chiteral is now known as literal 20:55:49 PROPH3CY_: (you'll probably want to look into Emacs later on though) 20:55:49 Google. 20:56:02 that link that you have sent me, is that for beginers? 20:56:15 is lisp any good for making good games? 20:56:22 PROPH3CY_: it says A Gentle Introduction 20:56:36 Iceland_jack: my bad, thanks I see that now :P 20:56:41 see lispgames.org 20:58:12 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-220.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 20:58:16 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-220.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 20:59:18 you gotta love irc.. 20:59:24 lot of good information.. 20:59:56 rvrebane: not so loud, you'll wreck our reputation 21:00:39 rvrebane: you know as much as us and therefore are a horrible person! 21:00:41 *Ralith* to the rescue! 21:02:03 indeed.. 21:02:20 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-77.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:02:52 -!- rukubites [~user@d211-30-71-110.meb9.vic.optusnet.com.au] has left #lisp 21:03:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:05:52 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-220.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:05:55 rvrebane: if you know java or a similar language (including things like catching errors etc), then I'd advise the PCL 21:09:13 thanks.. 21:09:31 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 21:10:01 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:10:19 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:30 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.100.40.123] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:15:49 -!- __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:17:06 -!- kevin__ [~kevin@46.188.212.18] has quit [Quit: .] 21:17:35 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-220.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 21:20:14 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.100.40.123] has joined #lisp 21:23:27 earlgray [~Adium@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:15 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e1af.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:17 -!- rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has quit [Quit: good night..] 21:24:46 hi 21:25:10 does anyone per chance have an implementation of sobol quasi random numbers laying around? 21:26:16 __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:44 prxq: it might be in gsll 21:26:50 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.111.128] has joined #lisp 21:26:56 -!- nachtwandler_ [~nachtwand@p4FE33405.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:27:15 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:27:31 hm 21:29:28 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.111.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:33:54 -!- knob [~knob@genesis.ballesterhermanos.com] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Nine out of ten l33t h4x0rz prefer it] 21:35:51 -!- k9quaint-wk [~k9quaint-@64.197.122.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:37:22 -!- PROPH3CY_ [4636133c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.54.19.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:39:18 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:39:23 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:41:40 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:37 dru1d [~lukasz@82.177.172.217] has joined #lisp 21:47:45 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@cpe-74-64-109-53.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:50:58 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:51:42 tcr [~tcr@95-88-46-7-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:53:10 nicdev_` [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:16 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:56:16 -!- nicdev_ [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:57:11 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-147-18.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:58:34 Cloud__ [~cbolano@187.193.181.76] has joined #lisp 21:59:31 lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:56 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.21.136] has joined #lisp 22:00:13 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:00:37 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.229.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:01:42 -!- dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-xitfrwzsccptfvcq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:03:36 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.100.40.123] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:05:52 -!- ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:10:51 levi [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:04 -!- nicdev_` [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:12:14 Does anyone run Hunchentoot in single-thread mode except newbies who accidentally installed CLISP? 22:13:08 gigamonkey: i do. 22:13:21 hugod_ [~hugod@70.24.180.190] has joined #lisp 22:13:23 I run one thread per connection 22:13:30 gigamonkey: i don't want no stinking concurrency 22:13:38 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:14:06 H4ns: interesting. 22:14:11 On what impl? 22:14:19 gigamonkey: ccl, sbcl 22:15:05 So I guess you'd think it a regression if I tore the single-threaded-taskmaster out of Toot. 22:15:18 gigamonkey: i'd hate that, yes. 22:15:54 Darn. 22:15:57 :) 22:17:34 What if there was a thread-pool-taskmaster and you could set the pool size to 1? 22:18:56 if that'd be the way, then i'd probably use that. 22:19:16 I guess I'm wondering what about single-threadedness appeals to you? 22:19:29 i'd prefer if the webserver would not insist on creating threads itself 22:19:35 Is it performance, conceputal simplicity, or something else. 22:20:06 erm, i like to avoid concurrency. i never want to have to requests run in parallel. my handlers are fast, and they don't get any faster if they run in parallel. 22:20:49 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-147-52.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:20:55 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-147-52.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:24:25 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@141.196.171.163] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:40 gigamonkey: wouldn't this use case be served just fine by a good multiplexer-based taskmaster? 22:24:56 I guess that's probably what would drive your threadpool 22:29:46 Ralith: I dunno. Depends what you mean by "this use case"? 22:30:00 gigamonkey: not using concurrency. 22:30:35 Well, in a multi-core world I want to have at least as many threads as cores. So I don't want to get totally rid of concurrency. 22:31:04 gigamonkey: that's not always useful. For example, if your requests are blocked on an inherently sequential process, as H4ns seems to have. 22:31:07 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:20 Also if handlers can block (say waiting for a database), threads help keep latency down. (Unless you can multiplex all i/o and move to a totally async i/o model.) 22:31:41 or even if you are running different processes on the other N-1 cores and don't want to compete with them 22:31:50 gigamonkey: my handlers do not block, ever, because i have all my data in memory. 22:32:22 gigamonkey: database I/O, being socket-oriented, can certainly be easily multiplexed, and I think there should be a mechanism for that sort of thing 22:32:23 H4ns: Yes. In that case you are more or less totally CPU bound. Until you start writing down the socket to a slow client. 22:32:27 delimited continuations or such perhaps? 22:32:48 gigamonkey: correct. this is why i run my servers behind a caching frontend 22:33:08 gigamonkey: as a general rule, if a library requires you to use its mainloop, it should provide *some* mechanism to hook into its core multiplexer 22:33:18 otherwise you're very limited by it 22:34:05 Anyway, my actual current point is that I'm trying to write a replacement for the thread-per-connection taskmaster. 22:34:26 Ralith: seda-style pipelines probably fit better with CL. 22:34:29 A complete overhall of toot's internals to be all async is an interesting project but not one I'm tackling right now. 22:34:34 fair enough 22:34:45 there will be seirous problems with anything that blocks, then 22:34:57 The good news is, Toot's internals are much simpler than Hunchentoot's so anyone who wants to take on that project might have a fighting chance. 22:35:00 thread-per-connection actually gets you better performance. 22:35:05 Are any of you (or perhaps the author if he's here) aware whether the cl twilio library has been released for public consumption (http://www.twilio.com/blog/2010/10/cuevox-wins-twilio-anything-goes-with-a-twist-developer-contest.html)? 22:35:06 duomo [~duomo@120-dcmp11.goeaston.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:07 Than? 22:35:20 than thread-per-core with blocking handlers 22:35:22 assuming heavy load 22:35:38 because the OS will (with significant overhead) take over the role of the multiplexer. 22:35:42 via thread scheduling 22:36:07 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-104-167.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:36:11 whereas if you've got thread-per-core, it's very easy to end up in a situation where you can't accept any connections because every single thread is blocked 22:36:33 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:36:55 your requests per unit time is hard-limited. 22:37:09 to a much greater degree than the hardware inherently requires. 22:37:23 gigamonkey: you know, in the end it does not matter to me that much because i can just establish a lock in my dispatcher/handler before calling application code. i still prefer the simple, single threaded model. 22:37:37 basically, you end up unrespnsive *and* with low CPU usage 22:37:40 which is just silly 22:38:07 gigamonkey: would elaborate more but my battery is dying; back in an hour or so. 22:38:19 Ralith: the sad news is that hunchentoot, with its reliance on streams for various important things, can't be made event-oriented. 22:38:30 discuss then! 22:38:39 *ThomasH* images hooking the laptop up to a generator powered by a stationary bicycle. 22:39:44 I wonder how long it would take to charge a laptop that way. That's actually kind of an awesome idea. It would enforce exercise breaks on you. 22:41:04 -!- H4ns [57a9e3da@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.169.227.218] has quit [Quit: good night.] 22:42:14 One thing I want to enable in Toot is hanging GETs without burning a thread. In my (maybe confused) mind implementing a thread pool taskmaster is a step in that direction (because there will be a work queue which "suspended" connections could be put on when the server wants to send a response.) 22:42:37 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-220.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:43:10 -!- hugod_ is now known as hugod 22:43:11 DataLinkDroid [~David@1.148.44.80] has joined #lisp 22:43:39 ThomasH: ash the OCW people. 22:43:45 erh, OWS (: 22:43:49 ThomasH: Based on how long it takes to crank up an emergency radio or an OLPC, I would guess that it would take way too long. 22:44:53 pkhuong: Heh, that would have never occurred to me. austinh: That's why I think it would have to be a stationary bicycle. I saw a guy run a TV with one on YouTube. 22:45:47 It was pretty crude. You could integrate the generator into the wheel. For that matter, you could set it up so that you could pedal while you work and then there would be no breaks. 22:46:11 Brings a whole new dimension to forced labor. 22:46:26 hah 22:46:56 -!- Cloud__ [~cbolano@187.193.181.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:47:55 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:21 Before anyone gets any ideas, I claim copyright. :-P 22:49:30 ThomasH: it's already been (and being, AIUI) done in the Occupy SF camp 22:49:33 You can have copyright, I claim patent rights 22:49:37 Kron [~Kron@98.143.101.17] has joined #lisp 22:50:00 bhaskara` [~user@gw.willowgarage.com] has joined #lisp 22:50:03 -!- Kron is now known as Guest32644 22:50:50 -!- hugod [~hugod@70.24.180.190] has quit [Quit: hugod] 22:51:16 antifuchs: Cool, I've not really been paying attention to OWS. I just googled it and it's not really that original of an idea, as I suspected. I'd like a recumbent setup. That would be awesome. 22:51:43 ThomasH: http://www.los-gatos.ca.us/davidbu/pedgen.html 22:51:52 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.21.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:51:52 austinh: There now. 22:52:28 "Pedal powered washing machine (this is a tremendous workout, especially with the spin/sprint at the end!)" 22:53:22 -!- bhaskara` [~user@gw.willowgarage.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53:37 I'm lucky, my house is located where I can do most everything on my bike, including take the kids to school. I've gone for a couple weeks at a time without getting in a car. 22:55:24 -!- earlgray [~Adium@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has left #lisp 22:56:47 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:58:41 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:59:02 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:59:37 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:00:04 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:04 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 23:00:11 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-205-176.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:11 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-205-176.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:00:11 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 23:00:35 well that took rather less time than usual 23:00:52 and now H4ns is gone :/ 23:01:31 gigamonkey: anyway, thoughts on that problem? I suspect that the majority of webapps are I/O bound. 23:01:34 -!- ehu_ [~erik@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:01:47 which is worst-case for this. 23:07:28 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:08:37 oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:05 hugod [~hugod@70.24.180.190] has joined #lisp 23:10:20 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:57 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-208-200-173.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:13:26 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-147-18.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 23:13:51 Ralith: clearly if you are i/o bound and are using synchronous i/o then you need to have as many threads as possible blocking i/o calls if you want to keep up your throughput. 23:14:15 DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@75-163-225-197.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:18 gigamonkey: yes; the point is there's no real way to do anything but synchronous I/O in hunchentoot. 23:14:36 H4ns seemed pretty sure it would require a major redesign, in fact 23:14:48 The reason I don't like thread-per-connection is that if you're doing something like COMET then you have a whole bunch of threads sitting around blocked waiting for the server to generate a reply. 23:15:01 Ralith: have you *seen* what I'm doing to Toot?! 23:15:01 COMET? 23:15:04 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:15:07 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:15:10 no, I haven't. 23:15:11 Long GETs. 23:15:21 -!- dru1d [~lukasz@82.177.172.217] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:15:25 dru1d [~lukasz@82.177.172.217] has joined #lisp 23:15:27 sounds like you need an event-based system for those 23:15:29 https://github.com/gigamonkey/toot 23:15:40 Ralith: yes. 23:15:58 But you can fake up events with threads. 23:16:17 But without just giving up and having everything run straight through in a single thread. 23:16:52 running in a single thread is fine if you're full-async (though you eventually want thread-per-core of course) 23:17:11 Basically I want a way in the server for a handler to stash request away and then at some time later let a different thread pick up the request and send the response. 23:17:11 is there a way to fake up events with threads *without* ending up with a bunch of blocked threads? 23:17:59 No. But I don't want to have a thread blocked for things that don't have to be blocked--things I can actually turn into events. 23:18:20 I thought you didn't want to refactor into an event-based model, though? 23:18:22 For instance, suppose I have GETs coming in that have to wait on a queue for a message to send out as the response. 23:18:37 Is it possible to use a negative integer as input to FILE-POSITION to rewind the file pointer? 23:18:40 -!- dru1d [~lukasz@82.177.172.217] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:18:49 dru1d [~lukasz@82.177.172.217] has joined #lisp 23:19:02 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:19:07 Bahman: wont a 0 do? 23:19:31 That can be a "real" event in the sense that instead of having the thread handling the request block on a queue it basically register for the event that will be fired when something is put on the queue. 23:19:32 sty [~quassel@bas2-toronto61-2925399486.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:19:33 prxq: What if I need to rewind only 10 bytes? 23:19:41 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 23:20:01 If I have some threads burned up blocked on synchronous i/o, I can live with that. 23:20:30 you're going to need many more threads than one-per-core, though 23:20:46 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:59 Bahman: Check the FILE-POSITION entry in the hyperspec. 23:21:01 -!- dru1d [~lukasz@82.177.172.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:21:02 I don't really understand your usecase or your proposed solution, but it's not clear to me that you can do better than thread-per-request at all. 23:22:02 ThomasH: I am but can't get how to rewind the pointer to a relative position. 23:22:16 Maybe that's simply not possible? 23:22:27 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 23:22:30 Bahman: you have a way to read the absolute position, and a way to set the absolute position. 23:22:33 Bahman: Sure it is possible. 23:22:46 Bahman: Why not: (file-position stream (- (file-position stream) 100)) 23:23:16 -!- alex` [~user@p5098fea8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:24:02 Now I get it. The POSITION-SPEC is an absolute offset...now it's clear. 23:24:07 gigamonkey: Sure it'll work. 23:24:09 Thanks folks. 23:24:17 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@141.215.80.186] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 23:24:34 bhaskara` [~user@gw.willowgarage.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:00 Ralith: perhaps a simple example. Client A issues a "GET /my-messages". There are no messages available so the server is just going to hold onto that connection and not send back a response until there are. 23:25:18 Then client B issues a "POST /message-for-a" which the server wants to take and send back on the hanging GET from client A. 23:25:36 (I.e. I don't want client A polling the server; I just want it to wait.) 23:26:44 When the POST comes in from client B the incoming message a work item to pick up the message and send it out on the waiting connection is put on a work queue and some thread picks it up and does it. 23:27:15 I see 23:27:48 that works just fine, I suppose, given a way to tell the lib not to close the connection 23:28:04 not a very general solution though :/ 23:28:46 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 23:28:48 Well, a work queue is very general solution for anything that can be broken down that way. 23:29:17 async IO frameworks can have heavy overhead too; I've seen many that have worse performance than the straightforward threaded code. Turns out linux is really good at threads these days... 23:29:49 what a country! 23:29:51 foom: that's certainly possible. For my case the important question is how much does a thread that's sitting blocked on a condition variable costs. 23:30:28 gigamonkey: it costs you some RAM and some address space. Other than that, not much. 23:31:28 How much is "some RAM"? 23:32:13 however big a stack you asked for, iirc 23:32:17 I don't actually care about this much anymore, but the last time I was building a system like this we were worried about having tens or hundreds of thousands of waiting clients. 23:32:18 7MB or so by default on linux 23:32:35 Ralith: that's just address space 23:33:38 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34:46 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has joined #lisp 23:34:50 gigamonkey: well did you work on a 64-bit system? 23:36:12 adeht: nope. This was before I wrote PCL. So I'm sure lots of things have changed. 23:36:38 At the time we used to debate whether eventually threads would be cheap enough to not have to worry about using them. 23:40:28 On a 64bit kernel, I would expect you to be able to handle at least 10k threads without issue. 23:41:08 the big issue with thread scalability these days is simply address space for the stack when you're in a 32bit address space. 23:41:21 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:43:40 ... what about file descriptors? Can you manage the 11k FDs that you'll probably need with such a scenario? 23:44:11 right.. I think the standard x86-64 linux per-process address space size is 128TB.. so given a 1MB stack size you can fit more than a million threads (but context-switching may kill you?) 23:44:19 -!- paul0 [~user@190.193.97.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:45:10 nyef: [death@sneeze ~]$ cat /proc/sys/fs/file-max ==> 202403 23:45:11 23:45:18 nyef: but you can set it up 23:45:39 Lovely. Are we still limited by fd-set size? 23:46:16 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e1af.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:47:32 centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-172-67.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:55 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.111.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:48:29 nyef: hehe, my FD_SETSIZE is 1024, but... 23:48:54 that's only relevant to select, no? 23:51:25 Ralith: Relevant to select is relevant if your underlying stream implementation uses select. 23:51:33 ah. 23:51:39 adeht: have you used lredis with anything in particular? 23:52:06 I've been thinking of playing with redis. 23:52:44 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.142.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:53:04 sykopomp: I used it for several utilities 23:57:03 sykopomp: here's an old example http://paste.lisp.org/display/95670 23:58:06 adeht: oh cool. Thanks. :) 23:59:14 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:19 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:22 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-205-176.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:22 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-205-176.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:59:22 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp