00:00:25 Xach: Around? 00:00:39 Younder: even more awesome is that both run quicklisp, and that's ontopic :) 00:01:51 -!- gtrak [~gtrak```@173.13.240.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:02:35 Actually the newest Hunchentoot doesnt. I tried to bring that to Zach's attention yesterday but was ignored. Glad inconsuquent trivia is more interestin 00:03:50 that should be noted to h4ns, not to xach. be sure to attach the lisp implementation and version to the report. 00:04:57 or did you try to install through quicklisp? i don't think quicklisp has the latest&greatest hot bleeding edge hunchentoot that has just been released. 00:05:19 madnificent, acually it has to do with versions of various libraries i Quick Lisp 00:05:39 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:05:44 so are you running everything through quicklisp, or not? 00:06:29 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:06:44 madnificent, well acually not the latest version of huchentoot. But I thought he might want to upgrade and know the difficulties 00:06:48 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:08:01 madnificent, I mean I run the latest version of huncentoot and other library versions cause problems. 00:08:24 Younder: I assume the next update to quicklisp's dists will contain the new hunchentoot and that all needed libraries which need upgrading will be upgraded as well. but if it's an error specific to mac, then there's a bigger chance that a bug crawls by and isn't noticed. or so i'd assume. 00:08:45 Before we get the awesome 1.2 release. 00:09:35 I run Linux on a PC madnificent 00:10:44 which lisp implementation(s) do you use? 00:11:36 SBCL 00:12:47 and you're running a recent release of that? and you're not using common-lisp-controller or anything odd? if all that is true, then it should all start working when quicklisp updates. it may be wise to create a paste with the error though. 00:13:11 what's odd about common-lisp-controller? 00:14:01 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 00:14:05 DaDaDosPrompt: What isn't? 00:14:06 madnificent, I get the release off the version control system. I might have missed a couple of weeks. 00:14:12 DaDaDosPrompt: nothiing, it's just *broken* 00:14:17 guess I couldn't easily say 00:14:28 I don't know too much about specific lisp packages 00:14:34 incf p_l 00:14:51 just wondered if it somehow broke the interpreter in some way if loaded 00:14:59 DaDaDosPrompt: it's basically something that your unix distribution may offer you in order to help you out installing lisp stuff, only it doesn't help you out. 00:15:07 ah 00:15:22 sounds like the typical OS X package manager :3 00:15:28 Younder: you get the release of what off the vcs? 00:15:31 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-226-231.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:15:31 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-226-231.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 00:16:08 Younder: of sbcl, or of hunchuntoot? fwiw, i always download the latest release of sbcl and install that. it works just fine. i don't know about the stability of the revisions in the vcs. 00:16:27 madnificent, 10.10.11 00:18:34 (/me should've known better) that's a date, i presume. and it's the date of which software package? of sbcl or of hunchentoot? 00:18:37 Perhaps it is my fault. I have beenlazy and hen't followed the latest newsgroup updates. I might have got a unstable version.. Anyhow madnificent thanks! 00:19:50 -!- Houl [~Miranda@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 00:19:53 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:05 Younder: what should work is this: you go to sbcl.org, you download the latest binary for your architecture, follow the installation instructions. then you install quicklisp and you let it take care of /everything/, unless it's a library you wrote yourself, or if you explicitly want to run something that either isn't in quicklisp or of which you want a newer version. in almost all cases that should work. 00:20:24 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:47 Younder: i haven't tried the latest hunchentoot, i may try if that setup should work (under linux at least) if it's really important to you :) 00:21:01 rtoyg: hi! 00:26:26 -!- rcharle2 [~rcharles@dhcp145.gradapt1.iit.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:26:46 Milano Italy 00:27:24 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@94.144.63.7] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:28:13 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:27 chenbing` [~user@125.122.211.164] has joined #lisp 00:30:48 knob [~knob@66.50.243.24] has joined #lisp 00:30:52 Good evening everyone =) 00:31:46 Sorry for the ultra-n00b question, yet I'm trying to install CLISP in an OpenBSD machine... 00:31:46 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 00:31:56 and I am lost, even after searching google for a good while 00:32:07 knob: what does it do and what doesn't it do? 00:32:16 Thanks for the help! 00:32:17 WEll 00:32:21 I don't know even where to start 00:32:22 knob: and welcome to #lisp 00:32:23 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:32:27 thanks XD 00:32:31 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has joined #lisp 00:32:47 I have the openBSD VM open... yet, don't know how to add CLISP... 00:33:03 I'm going with CLISP specifically because I'm starting out a book on it... the green alien book 00:33:15 -!- chenbing [~user@125.122.209.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:33:20 my guess would be: download clisp, follow the installation procedure :) 00:33:20 Land of Lisp (( they convinced me with their YouTube video lol )) 00:33:33 sadly, i haven't read Land of Lisp 00:33:43 *madnificent* wonders why they advise clisp, and not sbcl 00:33:59 you mean: common lisp, or do you mean the clisp implementation of common lisp? 00:34:06 Well, here's the link to the OpenBSD clisp page 00:34:11 o_0 00:34:18 don't know... 00:34:22 knob, what OS are you using? 00:34:27 http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/ports/lang/clisp/ 00:34:28 ah, point me please :) we'll look at it together. perhaps we'll sort it out 00:34:30 OpenBSD 4.9 00:34:49 thanks ... I'm a n00b to BSD, and I just don't know even *how* to add something 00:35:00 Yet a general direction, and I'll go reading 00:35:31 knob: this sounds more like a question for #openbsd then, let's head over there and ask 00:36:54 Was the SBCL threads issue ever solved for BSD? 00:37:44 ... was any threads issue ever solved for openBSD? 00:38:33 p_l: you're narrowing the field by picking openBSD... it used to work on FreeBSD iirc 00:38:50 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 00:39:29 pthreads is Linux are simple. Threads are just processes with shared memory and resources. 00:40:19 madnificent: I figured FreeBSD could be workable with the newer simplified threads. NetBSD afaik still keeps MxN system that sometimes doesn't work (hard to implement reliably). And openBSD usually didn't have concurrent threads 00:41:05 Younder: that's actually not pthreads, it just happens that glibc-provided pthreads call the current threading API (nptl) 00:41:07 iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:48 (you can sometimes encounter GNU pthreads, which doesn't do that, and thus doesn't have concurrency) 00:43:00 Xach: Hey! Just wanted to ask you about the *d-p-d* bugs. 00:43:03 p_l: i wonder if nikodemus' work will include support for FreeBSD 00:43:18 rtoyg: sbcl had one in delete-file. 00:43:45 Xach: Yeah, someone mentioned that one, but that doesn't appear happen in cmucl. 00:43:52 Er, appear to 00:44:46 rtoyg: yeah, i think you cleaned up all the cmucl ones last year. 00:44:54 don't remember if delete-file was among them 00:45:34 -!- DataLinkDKT [~AndChat@1.148.36.249] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:45:34 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:46:46 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 00:49:50 ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has joined #lisp 00:53:06 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS008.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: :s] 00:54:01 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.33] has joined #lisp 00:56:17 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.188.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:58:31 rtoyg: what's up with the nat/google stuff? 00:59:35 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59:42 -!- jaminja [~jaminja@unaffiliated/jaminja] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:00:05 -!- Zulu_Inuoe [~zulu12@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:01:18 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:02:27 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:03:33 hmm found problem with clisp/slime 01:03:39 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 01:03:56 if you have a macro that calls a function that signals an error, it disconnects with stack overflow 01:04:29 actually not a macro, but a stefil:deftest 01:04:34 when its inside of a macro, its fine 01:05:34 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-139-233.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:50 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:01 jaminja [~jaminja@unaffiliated/jaminja] has joined #lisp 01:07:10 minimum example: 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240 seconds] 01:22:57 billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has joined #lisp 01:26:14 -!- tsuru``` is now known as tsuru` 01:26:42 cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.188.145] has joined #lisp 01:29:52 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:31:29 mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has joined #lisp 01:31:54 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has quit [Client Quit] 01:33:25 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.188.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:35:45 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.47.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:36:36 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:37:32 tanglisha [~tanglisha@c-71-231-137-202.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:38 Zulu_Inuoe [~zulu12@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:11 jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:20 Xach: you around? 01:42:35 -!- jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] 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[~gko@27.247.68.125] has joined #lisp 03:56:02 how do i return a "true" from a dotimes loop if a condition is true? 03:56:19 it always returns nil 03:57:04 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:57:16 wildnux: there's an optional return value form. Otherwise, dotimes includes an implicit NIL block, so you can RETURN from it. 03:58:23 pkhuong: can i return as soon as the condition is true? 03:58:37 wildnux: why don't you just use 'some'? 03:58:57 oh wait 03:58:59 dotimes, not dolist 03:59:04 disregard 03:59:09 todun [~todun@SEAS008.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 03:59:26 -!- nicdev_` [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:59:34 wildnux: if that's what you want to do. 03:59:46 http://pastebin.com/p9NBrJvY 03:59:52 pkhuong: ^^^ 04:00:40 -!- lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:00:59 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.80.203] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:01:24 lemoinem [~swoog@11-74-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:47 pkhuong: board is a 3x3 array , player is just a "X" (its for tictactoe) 04:03:43 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5DE8F553.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:03:56 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 04:04:55 wildnux: won't you also check colums and diagonals the same way? Why not generalize it, then? Why do it separately? 04:05:46 akovalenko: please show me the right path.. I am trying to learn, and was trying to simplify :P 04:07:14 -!- smartviking1 [~smartviki@ti0069a380-0901.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 04:10:35 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:10:50 -!- armence [~armence@unaffiliated/armence] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:10:56 el-maxo [~max@p57A569BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:06 *maxm-* is fixing up his log library for the public 04:12:28 wildnux: let's start with the task at hand, not with lisp-specific constructs. What is a row/column/diagonal? it's the set of 3 locations, which can be specific as two functions, x(i) and y(i): i \in (0,1,2).. 04:12:38 any suggestion for the name? it seems everything is taken... my internal name is cl-log, but there are already abondanware cl-log, log4cl, log5 etc 04:13:16 -!- gko [~gko@27.247.68.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:13:24 wildnux: for each row/column/diagonal, x(i) and y(i) are both linear 04:13:35 maxm-: buche. 04:13:38 library itself pwns.. in slow path its as fast as log4j with default setting, in the fast path (logger has no appenders) its around 10 times faster then log4j, and it conses peanuts comparing to anything else 04:14:03 pkhuong: hmm whats buche? 04:15:02 french for log (as in timber). The corresponding verb is also Quebecois slang for pwn. 04:15:41 not really sold on it, ppl not gonna find it when searching for logging 04:16:07 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-156-49.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:16:14 superflit [~superflit@71-33-156-49.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:17 People looking for timber might. 04:16:53 maxm-: imo, you there's nothing wrong with stealing a project name from abandonware 04:16:54 FWIW, I don't think the *project name* matters as much as having a useful description of the system. 04:16:57 at least if they're named so generally 04:17:09 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-156-49.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:17:30 there are like three variations on "cl-llvm" (sellout's is currently the recommended one) 04:18:12 but I agree with pkhuong that the project name is not important for googling purposes 04:18:18 akovalenko: this is what i did just now.. http://pastebin.com/bq1PVV8f 04:18:23 after all, hunchentoot and drakma are quite successful 04:19:39 wildnux: Now, start eliminating repetition  04:19:41 -!- setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@118.45.149.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:19:46 Ralith: i'll email cl-log guy, see if hes ok with me reusing the name 04:20:03 daniel__ [~daniel@p5B326BFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:12 actually probably log4cl is better, it seems have no updates since 2006 04:21:01 I like buche. 04:21:21 wildnux: (defun won? (b p) (some (lambda (indices) (every (lambda (r c) (string-equal (aref b r c) p)) indices)) '(((0 0) (0 1) (0 2)) ((1 0)..)))) ;; that's if we keep your data representation intact, and just make your solution data-driven.. 04:21:26 I'm kind of confused as to what an ultra-performant logging system is useful for, thouh 04:21:44 if you're logging so much that performance is a problem, I think you might be doing logs wrong. 04:21:51 well, you can start sprinkling your code very liberally with log statements 04:21:53 Ralith: minimising the difference between debug and release builds. 04:22:21 Ralith: and the continuum of build types inbetween. 04:22:48 I suppose 04:22:50 it also auto-names loggers (under SBCL).. So (log-debug "blah") inside of package foobar.test and defun moo, automatically goes to logger foobar.test.moo 04:22:57 -!- chenbing` [~user@125.122.211.164] has left #lisp 04:22:59 -!- daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082BA9F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:23:05 handy 04:23:24 got an API doc? 04:23:28 there are multiple hierarchies (so you can have separate config for lets say virtual hosts) 04:23:48 How about calling it "forest"? Because people exploiting your library will soon have logs. ;) 04:23:50 its log4j compatible 1-for-1, ie appenders, additivity, works the same way 04:24:27 Ralith: not yet, you can pretty much reuse log4j docs 04:24:29 Paul Bunyan (he was pretty fast at logging, right?) 04:24:42 *maxm-* has to finish rollingfileappender and such 04:24:47 pinterface: that's even the correct formal term 04:24:54 lumberjack? :-) 04:25:30 actually I like lumberjack, thanks for "good at logging" angle 04:25:46 I hope you didn't bind yourself to the log4j API too tightly 04:25:58 (log-debug "blah") instead of (log :debug "blah") seems a bit odd, for example 04:26:27 Ralith: no its lispy where needed (ie writing your own appenders or layouts)..But I doubt anyone going to be writing their own layouts/appenders if pattern layout works fine 04:26:59 can it produce a stream to write to for convenient use with princ/format/etc? 04:27:15 akovalenko: am I suppose to expand those dots for rows, columns and diagonals? 04:27:19 can't use (log) 04:27:22 ? 04:27:33 its cl:log, math op 04:27:42 ...okay? 04:27:46 oh 04:27:47 right 04:28:04 well you could name it something else but I'm way more interested about streaming 04:28:04 wildnux: Yes. 04:28:16 sellout-: thank you :) 04:28:43 streaming works fine (make-instance stream-layout :stream whatever) 04:28:45 wildnux: you just list everything as you coded everything, and then you'll have data repetition, but at least you don't repeat youself in the code.. 04:28:49 err stream-appender 04:29:19 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-qwrzvazbjlczpcrw] has joined #lisp 04:29:19 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-qwrzvazbjlczpcrw] has quit [Changing host] 04:29:19 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 04:29:19 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 04:29:47 maxm-: no way to do it without consing? 04:29:56 Ralith: it uses formatter macro 04:29:59 ? 04:30:47 I have no idea what you're talking about 04:31:18 (log-debug "blah=~d" cnt) expands into this http://i.imgur.com/2t7S0.png 04:31:23 npat [~npat@77.49.152.215] has joined #lisp 04:31:54 no consing in both logging and no logging case 04:32:39 it passes the lambda that when called, writes log statement to stream 04:32:45 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:34:50 setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.92] has joined #lisp 04:35:08 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xyikqjnewzgysgsi] has joined #lisp 04:35:47 maxm-: right. I'd like to have the option to write the body of that lambda myself in literal form. 04:35:54 were I to use this. 04:37:07 (well (log-debug [) expands to true/false if logger has any appenders 04:37:13 what? 04:37:14 maxm-: log:debug, or log:it. 04:37:26 packages don't have to be USEd 04:37:37 nice 04:37:58 so you can do (when (log-debug) ... need to think of a good API to retreive a stream) 04:38:12 maxm-: exporting a wrapper of log-with-logger that takes care of the first two params on its own, along with a matching macro wrapper along the lines of (log:stream (s) (frob s)), would be quite sufficient. 04:38:46 where frob is some code that writes to s 04:39:38 akovalenko: had to make a slight change, for first and second of indices and it worked thank you http://pastebin.com/bq1PVV8f 04:40:33 maxm-: also: how's the concurrency support? 04:40:33 wildnux: now for row/col/diag: (defun winnerp (field player) (flet ((test-fields (row-major-index delta) (loop for index from row-major-index by delta repeat 3 always (string= player (row-major-aref field index))))) (some #'test-fields '(0 0 0 2) '(1 3 4 2)))) 04:41:26 Ralith: its up to appenders.. Default abstract appender has a lock, and wraps logging to the appender in with-recursive-log 04:41:34 reconfiguration uses global lock 04:41:40 akovalenko: bitvectors (or fixnums), mask and equality tests (: 04:41:48 or logcount. 04:41:49 wildnux: and now about data representation -- using strings for players is not brilliant. .. 04:41:51 two threads can log into same logger (with different appenders) concurrently 04:42:01 what is an appender? 04:42:07 I guess I shoul djust read the docs 04:42:12 1.2 or 2.0? 04:42:18 you need to read intro to log4j 04:42:19 pkhuong: yeah, something like that. But if we think of multiplayer tic-tac-toe on infinite field... 04:42:42 appender is a thing that writes log message (the decision already been made that it needs to be logged) somewhere 04:43:50 you have loggers.. each logger can have log level, based on log level the decision is made if logger is enabled or not.. If its enabled, log message is passed to each of the logger appenders, which are opaque objects that can do whataver with message (usually print it, or write to a file etc) 04:44:20 right, reading the intro 04:44:33 its actually quite elegant and production proven 04:44:42 you should totally use pkhuong's suggestion for interface naming, btw. 04:44:54 it closely matches the java one, even. 04:45:52 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177698375.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:46:21 chenbing` [~user@125.122.211.164] has joined #lisp 04:46:24 hmm actually log:debug is not a bad idea 04:46:34 it solves the problem with cl:log, too 04:46:48 shadow it in your package, and discourage users from USEing it 04:47:12 (defpackage "LOG" (:use )) (defpackage "LOG-IMPL" (:use "CL" ...)) 04:47:45 LOG only has to export symbols. 04:47:58 can't he just (:shadow "log")? 04:48:05 maxm-: how about one of: log-cl log-for-cl log-4-cl 04:48:10 "LOG" rather 04:48:33 eMBee: yea thats what I'm thinking, log4cl seems to be the most abandoned, so I'm going to pickup that 04:48:48 Ralith: not USEing packages is a different way to do things. It's often easier to use a package only for external symbols than to remember which you've hidden 04:48:59 or log5cl :-) 04:49:08 also, with a name like LOG, you probably want that to be a nickname 04:49:33 pkhuong: I don't follow. I'm not suggesting anyone USE his package, just observing that it isn't necessary to have an internal one. 04:50:02 or do you mean there's something useful about having a package have *only* external symbols? 04:50:17 Ralith: what if he wants to use cl:log? It's bug-prone (from experience). 04:50:26 okay 04:50:32 pkhuong: I'm thinking... fatal,error,warn,info,debug,trace are the levels 04:50:45 Ralith: or cl:error, cl:trace, etc. 04:50:50 kind of common words to export 04:51:06 maxm-: perfectly unambiguous if there's no USEing going on. 04:51:44 did the stream interface I described sound decent to you? 04:52:05 hmm I guess, /me never written a package that I did not :use so I'm kind of rusty with the concept 04:52:12 (you'd want to be able to specify the level in the macro too, of course; (s :debug) for example) 04:53:36 Ralith: well I want to save typing, a lot of stuff quickly gets verbose.. ie (log:it :debug :custom.logger.name "message") kind of busy looking comparing to my current (log-debug :custom.logger.name "message") 04:53:53 maxm-: the suggestion was (log:debug :custom ...) 04:54:11 you're just replacing the hyphen with a colon. 04:54:20 pkhuong: yea your suggestion is log:debug, Ralith's one is to have log level as separate argument 04:54:27 maxm-: it's to have both (: 04:54:30 ^ 04:54:31 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.54.87] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 04:54:42 log-log:log-log-loger-log 04:54:51 well actually why not, I'm defining all (log-whatever) things via a macrolet anyway 04:54:54 maxm-: because the latter is a bit more regular and can help with macros. 04:54:59 so its 3 lines to add another set 04:55:09 maxm-: I was referring specifically to the log-to-stream macro, too, given that it's likely to be infrequently used. 04:55:39 under log4j you can't really log to a stream, because you log into a logger, which can have mulitple appenders active 04:55:56 Personally, I suggest considering a package to represent an authoring entity, rather than using it as a namespace. 04:56:14 the farthest expansion expands to (lambda (stream) ...writing log messages...), you can just use that 04:56:53 Zhivago: well the automatic logger naming is actually specialized on package 04:57:14 default is to use implementation-specific function to try to come up with a name from lexical env 04:58:16 maxm-: your interface does not currently provide an interface to that level of the expansion. 04:58:19 but you can use (defmethod expand-logger-name-form ((pkg (eql (find-package :my-package))) 1st-arg retst) ... returns whatever) 04:58:38 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.207] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 04:58:48 Hi. Anybody using Ubuntu (11.10)? I installed package (deb) "cl-asdf", but (require "asdf") fails from the CLISP top-level. I also tried (clc:clc-require "asdf"), which fails too. Any hints? 04:58:59 Ralith: (log-debug is a macro).. It calls the above method to get the form, that is put into the (let ((,logger so you can customize custom logger naming per-package by doing eql-specializer on *package* 04:59:29 I don't care about logger naming. 04:59:47 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 04:59:51 I care about being able to cheaply write to a stream. 05:00:18 since your system uses one internally, I see no reason why you can't make this available via an interface such as the one I described. 05:00:41 nostoi [~nostoi@253.Red-81-44-158.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:07 npat: most implementations ship with ASDF. 05:01:18 Ralith: you still have to laod it in. 05:01:32 true 05:02:20 well anyway, I need another 5-7 days to finish cleaning up, and implementing missing log4j features (rolling daily appender etc) (got to have tested on CCL, ECL etc), then will release and accept patches if you want guys.. 05:02:26 I don't think clisp is one of the implementations that ships with asdf. 05:02:35 Ralith, if that's what you mean, then (asdf:asdf-version) also fails 05:02:53 npat: many people here use SBCL and quicklisp. 05:03:28 they have a nice quanitity of Just Worksiness. 05:03:53 rtoy, pkhuong: So all these cl- packages in debian (including the CLC) are for sbcl? 05:04:12 npat: I don't think that's how debian does it. 05:04:23 npat: you'd use quicklisp to install Lisp libraries, not the package manager. 05:05:10 debian's lisp packages tend to be quite old, iirc. 05:10:12 Ralith: that's true, but I think it's getting better in sid. If there were no quicklisp yet, I could even prefer some of debian sid cl-* instead of clbuild now. 05:11:09 good to hear 05:12:14 -!- RDove [~ronnie@unaffiliated/rdove] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:16:59 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-153.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:48 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-43-129.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:20:34 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 05:24:43 -!- tanglisha [~tanglisha@c-71-231-137-202.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tanglisha] 05:34:30 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-106-67.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:38:59 wolfpython [~wolf@117.89.169.97] has joined #lisp 05:39:41 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-72.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:42:09 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@117.89.169.97] has quit [Client Quit] 05:42:13 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@253.Red-81-44-158.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 05:42:16 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has joined #lisp 05:45:57 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 05:49:48 whats the exact difference between :foo and 'foo? 05:51:40 symbol-package 05:54:55 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:54:58 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-160.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:00:51 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:01:10 hmm 06:01:33 are there guidelines when to use which? 06:01:41 sometimes I am confused 06:03:10 :foo when referencing a 'global' symbol and 'foo when referencing a package internal/imported symbol, and bar:foo when referencing an external symbol? 06:05:15 Cloud__ [~cbolano@187.193.220.143] has joined #lisp 06:07:45 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.188.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:08:51 el-maxo: there are different opinions on when/whether to import symbols, or use other packages (making their external symbols accessible), or use fully-qualified names. Aesthetics and personal preferences may matter here, as well as technical reasons (like the specific library's policy on versioning and compatibility) 06:10:54 el-maxo: as of keyword ("global") symbols and other symbols, the choice is made when you decide which one to /use/ for the specific purpose, and then you have no such choice when you reference that symbol (well, you can import a keyword to another package, but I've never seen it in real code). 06:13:23 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:16:27 The inability to import symbol X as Y is significant, although you can work around that with macrology. 06:16:40 -!- Cloud__ is now known as cesarbp 06:19:11 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:19:37 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:20:23 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:21:46 anyone know a good book or something similar that covers types/performance, etc? 06:25:39 gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:45 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-44-148.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:27:16 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-44-148.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 06:29:12 z1l0g [~jgw@216.99.214.24] has joined #lisp 06:30:22 -!- z1l0g [~jgw@216.99.214.24] has left #lisp 06:37:04 H4ns [5b3d467f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.70.127] has joined #lisp 06:38:31 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-nwrqripsylovepmb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:39:02 -!- Younder [~john@49.157.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:43:04 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:43:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-84-51-137.customers.almanet.kz] has joined #lisp 06:43:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-84-51-137.customers.almanet.kz] has quit [Changing host] 06:43:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:44:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 06:45:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:45:20 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-110-173.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:46:27 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-110-173.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:17 KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 06:47:19 -!- KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:48:01 KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 06:49:04 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:52:20 i know howto C-c C-d d for hyperspec ,and how can i jump into the source code of implemetion of sbcl 06:52:52 ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has joined #lisp 06:56:12 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:56:36 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.50.149] has joined #lisp 06:58:28 -!- Amyn [~abennama@m328eth.crans.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:58:34 chenbing`: M-. 06:58:58 chenbing`: you'll have to set up your logical pathname host for the source correctly, let me find it 06:59:30 chenbing`: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Lisp-Pathnames.html 07:01:30 chenbing`: here is an example. you'll have to figure the rest out yourself: http://paste.lisp.org/display/124916 07:02:31 passionke [~Administr@60.176.46.43] has joined #lisp 07:03:54 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:01 -!- chrnybo` [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:07:41 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-72.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:08:08 thank H4ns,letmeatry 07:12:04 chrnybo` [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 07:12:49 Phooodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 07:13:24 -!- billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:13:24 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:15:16 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:16:03 no query? 07:16:15 use the channel, i don't give private support 07:17:16 ok,still dont understand what u paste ,seems nothing about cl inplemention path 07:18:05 read the manual, look at the example that i pasted. you need to set the translation for the SYS logical pathname host. 07:20:15 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 07:20:51 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:26:57 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-110-173.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:31:20 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:57 qizwiz [~user@cpe-66-25-60-240.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:32:30 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:39:49 -!- udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:44:29 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-26-8.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:45 mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 07:49:50 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-pqvohhdqfgfwjxtd] has joined #lisp 07:53:35 marsell [~marsell@120.20.250.240] has joined #lisp 07:55:45 -!- qizwiz [~user@cpe-66-25-60-240.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:59:30 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:00:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:01:34 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:02:35 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:04:17 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:04:41 tsuru``` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-31-140.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:19 -!- tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-153.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:07:12 (subst #\a #\b "abcde");;not worked wrong 08:07:50 how replace string with substring? 08:08:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-84-51-137.customers.almanet.kz] has joined #lisp 08:08:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-84-51-137.customers.almanet.kz] has quit [Changing host] 08:08:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:08:49 chenbing`: easiest way might be to search for the position, then use subseq. or use cl-ppcre 08:09:13 chenbing`: subst operates on trees, not strings. 08:09:16 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 08:09:28 also, #\a and #\b are characters, not (sub)strings 08:10:05 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 08:10:15 a string sequence is not a tree? 08:10:29 chenbing`: no 08:10:47 a tree is a directed acyclic graph. 08:10:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-84-51-137.customers.almanet.kz] has joined #lisp 08:10:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-84-51-137.customers.almanet.kz] has quit [Changing host] 08:10:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:10:52 a string is not a graph at all. 08:11:17 chenbing`: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/26_glo_t.htm#tree 08:11:18 it could be a directed acyclic graph of characters :D 08:11:31 chenbing`: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/26_glo_s.htm#string 08:12:03 well, I'd have thought that a sequence of characters is a very special tree ... of course, a string is an array of characters, and so is _not_ a tree 08:12:28 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:14:36 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:16:19 Amyn [~abennama@64.208.49.22] has joined #lisp 08:17:19 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 08:21:37 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 08:21:39 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:27:26 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:27:26 -!- DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@184.99.15.205] has quit [Quit: DaDaDosPrompt] 08:30:28 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:32:25 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-14-161.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:32:25 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-14-161.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 08:32:26 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 08:34:31 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:35:27 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:35:28 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:36:00 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:37:22 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:41:05 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:42:41 e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-bspjanzjghwugwpn] has joined #lisp 08:44:14 -!- H4ns [5b3d467f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.70.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:49:44 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS008.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: :q] 08:52:49 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-hwybebbanvzwedue] has joined #lisp 08:53:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:55:09 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:00:04 good morning everyone 09:00:34 -!- Gertm [~Gertm@dD576D0D2.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 09:01:02 'morning 09:01:03 -!- easyE [nIRPU7SdXo@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:01:46 :d 09:01:48 :D 09:02:48 H4ns [5ce7dd01@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.231.221.1] has joined #lisp 09:03:49 bookses [~bookses@freeshell.de] has joined #lisp 09:04:16 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.220.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:04:21 Print-unreadable-object lets me hide the built-in identity representation of an object. OK simply not to print it as long as there are app-specific identifiers for the object in question, or would you expect a facility for printing it? 09:04:52 -!- bookses [~bookses@freeshell.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:07:41 chrnybo`: debugging gets much easier if some key points are printed 09:09:17 chrnybo`: I like to think of it as a shortcut to portably get a human-usable printable representation, but which won't be mistaken by reader for something useful which could introduce a weird bug 09:12:33 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-vfkweirvtkvigzvb] has joined #lisp 09:12:52 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 09:20:33 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:21:25 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:23:36 nicdev_` [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:41 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 09:27:13 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:27:50 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:28:17 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:28:58 bookses [~firerghos@123.145.9.252] has joined #lisp 09:30:30 *bookses* loves lisp! 09:30:31 -!- nicdev_` [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:33:48 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:35:15 -!- bookses [~firerghos@123.145.9.252] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:35:55 easyE [AXqtLJc0Zh@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 09:38:21 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:40:32 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:41:23 benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:dccb:6ac0:9120:6089] has joined #lisp 09:42:28 ngz [~user@83.131.77.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:50 H4ns_ [5ce7dd01@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.231.221.1] has joined #lisp 09:42:56 -!- H4ns [5ce7dd01@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.231.221.1] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:42:58 -!- H4ns_ is now known as H4ns 09:43:57 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d1a3c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:18 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-160.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:50:18 benkard_ [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:8d65:ffeb:a86f:e5b0] has joined #lisp 09:50:31 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:dccb:6ac0:9120:6089] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:50:31 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 09:50:51 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:52:30 substitude isnot a function in hyperspec? 09:52:39 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:53:06 chenbing`: you need read properly. or use copy and paste. 09:53:09 *Neronus* had an Idea this morning while riding the bycicle to work. People always say "the best code is no code at all" and so on and so forth, and complain about the lack/quality of libraries of lisp. Has anybody ever attempted to embed cpython in lisp, so that we could use their batteries? I'm only awayre of cl-python, but this is not what I want 09:54:15 Neronus: I don't think so. What batteries did you have in mind? 09:55:39 benkard_ [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:56:19 (substitude 'x 'y '(...)) is a example in ansi common lisp by paul graham Page41 09:56:42 chenbing`: substitute ... with a t instead of a d 09:57:16 oh my god 09:57:45 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:8d65:ffeb:a86f:e5b0] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:57:45 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 09:58:06 Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-196-91.uio.no] has joined #lisp 09:58:52 -!- jasom [~aidenn@ip98-182-25-247.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:00:23 jasom [~aidenn@ip98-182-25-247.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:34 Joreji [~thomas@91-249.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:00:40 good morning lispers :) 10:01:01 cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.216] has joined #lisp 10:01:23 good morning fe[nl]ix 10:01:36 hi trebor_dki 10:02:04 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.216] has quit [Changing host] 10:02:04 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 10:03:07 Xach: Everything their standard lib has that lisp currently doesn't have. One example: NumPy. I'm currently not aware of a high performing and complete linear algebra package in lisp. I haven't looked at GSLL, though 10:03:19 OK, NumPy is not in the python stadard library 10:03:26 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:04:40 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 10:05:23 In general, people seem to be really impressed with the python libraries. If we could leverage the python community by easily embedding python in lisp, we would have a huge amount of libraries to use. 10:05:47 http://common-lisp.net/project/python-on-lisp/ exists, seems to be dead since 2006 10:06:19 Neronus: in my experience, using libraries written in one language from another is often rather clumsy and rarely feels like having the real thing. 10:06:58 Neronus: this is not to say that it can't work. i would not set my expectations too high regarding what such a thing can do for common lisp as a whole, though. 10:07:10 H4ns: That's for sure, and writing a wrapper that feels good is hard work. 10:07:26 Though we can do it for C libraries, to some extend 10:09:08 imo ,lisp lack some public library,not like java and pythong and perl,someone have said so 10:09:28 I may think about it again once I've got a problem with a library I need. So far I've almost always been happy with what cliki provides. What's lacking is a nice binding to CUDD, but nobody else has one either :) 10:09:59 such as php win at orgnization and sales 10:10:30 even google say no to lisp,hehe 10:11:19 why is such a whining useful here? 10:11:35 who's whining? 10:11:58 not yours 10:12:05 -!- jaminja [~jaminja@unaffiliated/jaminja] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:12:08 i'm not whining either. 10:12:14 yep 10:12:35 i just refer someone-else 's opion,i just a newbie 10:12:48 and i love lisp 10:12:48 chenbing`: don't 10:13:06 *Neronus* goes into the depths of easychair now and sign frightening copyright clauses 10:13:34 s/sign/signs/ 10:14:46 it's a trap! 10:15:37 Yepp, but either I get my foot bitten or I don't go to Philadelphia :) 10:15:59 how to M- pick a word? 10:17:07 chenbing`: what do you mean? 10:18:02 e,my bad english ,difficult to express my real meaning 10:19:32 lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:52 tsuru```` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-25-197.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:02 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 10:21:17 -!- tsuru``` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-31-140.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:23:28 akovalen` [~anton@95.73.220.116] has joined #lisp 10:24:35 -!- akovalenko [~anton@95.72.168.23] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:24:43 -!- akovalen` is now known as akovalenko 10:25:16 how to choice a english word in a sentense(.) with short-key 10:26:40 choice a word with region 10:27:02 Can you give us an example? 10:27:21 chenbing`: in Emacs? then something like C-SPC M-e (where C-SPC starts selection, M-e is forward-sentence) 10:27:56 oiiii [~oiiii@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 10:27:57 M-@ works for that as well :) 10:28:02 there's also M-x mark-end-of-sequence, but it's not bound to any key, iirc.. 10:28:56 M-@ is for words, M-a and M-e are for sentences.. 10:29:21 yeah ,M-@is what my want ,C-space used in non-english input 10:29:25 oh, sentence. you win :) 10:29:31 thank you ,you are so helpful 10:31:07 there's a wonderful facility, M-x apropos-command. It asks for keywords or regexp, you enter (for example) sentence or paragraph or word or ^forward... and it shows a list of all matching emacs commands (with their key bindings where appropriate) 10:31:16 emacs as a lisp machine :) 10:32:24 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:34:22 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 10:34:53 -!- drdo`` [~drdo@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:38:27 -!- knob [~knob@66.50.243.24] has quit [] 10:39:16 -!- benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:39:26 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:40:15 benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:7dda:ae59:9ade:1252] has joined #lisp 10:40:21 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 10:40:21 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:43:53 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 10:44:12 jaminja [~jaminja@unaffiliated/jaminja] has joined #lisp 10:45:17 understand difference between tree and list ,list can form multiple datastructe,not only sequence 10:45:32 so the substitute and subst is so different 10:46:29 mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 10:47:09 short answer: subst descends recursively on the CAR and the CDR of a cons cell, while substitute only decends on the CDR 10:47:34 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:47:59 A list is a list, a tree is a tree, and a cons cell is just a thing with two pointers 10:48:16 More truisms after lunch 10:54:07 -!- Guest47704 [~quassel@bas2-toronto61-2925081504.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:55:23 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:57:01 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:59:37 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d1a3c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:02:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@91-249.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:07:11 mobydick [~textual@124-171-177-187.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:10:09 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:10:22 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:10:23 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.216.150] has joined #lisp 11:10:30 -!- drake01 [~drake01@115.246.216.150] has quit [Changing host] 11:10:31 drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has joined #lisp 11:11:09 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-236-79.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:11:44 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 11:12:08 hey does anyone recommend "Hunchentoot" as a complete web server for a lisp web app (static & dynamic html pages), or would you recommend running it behind "Apache"? 11:12:09 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 11:14:12 i think it is better to run it behind a reverse proxy; admins will not want to configure hunchentoot, and other servers are probably better suited for serving static content anyway (i have not done any benchmarking, thougH) 11:14:24 mobydick: depends on your scaling requirements ... for really high-performance data you might want to put static data behind nginx or something else 11:14:46 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:17:59 Is nginx preferable to Apache to serve static pages? 11:18:07 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:18:35 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:7dda:ae59:9ade:1252] has quit [Quit: benkard] 11:18:54 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:19:31 MrMc [~user@brln-4db9c69a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:24 mobydick: it's afaik lighter and deals with large amounts of connections easier 11:21:48 mobydick: ah sorry, I meant lighttpd ... but it won't matter for small volume sited 11:22:05 Guest4195 [~Guest4195@app23.chatmosphere.org] has joined #lisp 11:22:23 hi 11:23:44 -!- Guest4195 [~Guest4195@app23.chatmosphere.org] has quit [Client Quit] 11:24:56 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:25:29 ahh ok thanks might look into that one then 11:25:49 it is used for youtube and wikipedia must be alright 11:25:50 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:40 I think youtube is for a long time running on Google HTTPd :) 11:27:52 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.20.250.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:28:08 what are the advantages to Apache then if your not worries about large volumes of traffic? 11:28:10 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xyikqjnewzgysgsi] has left #lisp 11:29:09 mobydick: apache is like using a nuke to kill a fly 11:29:16 mobydick: in case that question was directed to me --- for small volume I might just use hunchentoot directly. 11:29:55 for high performance needs I'd split up the traffic (statics, ads, whatever is easy), and process these loads with eg. lighttpd 11:31:00 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@77.109.119.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:31:07 I was just asking in general, i've been using Hunchentoot to serve pages generated by a Lisp process on my local machine, now I'm moving it to a VPS and looking at my options.. 11:31:10 how about clhttp? 11:31:14 Its only a small web-app 11:32:04 xyxu [~xyxu@124.79.89.180] has joined #lisp 11:33:21 well I might as well do it properly.. I was thinking the static stuff directly by something like Apache, or maybe this Lighttpd and going via Hunchentoot for the dynamic content.. 11:34:48 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@GGZYMKCCCVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:35:17 mobydick: I'd think that for typical sites hunchentoot is "properly" ... if you've only got a single address and want to use apache and only one port you'll have to have mod_proxy 11:35:24 but I think hunchentoot alone is fine 11:35:55 gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:11 If you anticipate high volume you might also look at http://common-lisp.net/project/teepeedee2/ or HHHPHP (new hunchentoot branch by Hans Hübner, on github somewhere) 11:37:31 flip214: you are fantasizing. there is no "new hunchentoot branch" and also no new name, except for toot by peter seibel. thank you for not talking bullshit. 11:38:03 mobydick: i use hunchentoot for everything behind squid. that way, i only have hunchentoot to configure. 11:38:21 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:38:45 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.2.33] has joined #lisp 11:38:49 theBlackDragon [~dragon@77.109.119.34] has joined #lisp 11:38:49 peterhil [~peterhil@GGZYMKCCCVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 11:39:27 H4ns: sorry, seem to have confused some things ;) 11:39:38 flip214: quite obviously. 11:39:40 but why did we speculate about HHHPHP a few days ago 11:39:42 ? 11:40:30 myrice [~myrice@2001:da8:200:900e:0:5efe:a66f:4f8c] has joined #lisp 11:40:42 flip214: i don't know why you did, but as far as i remember it was you that "coined" this name. we were discussing good vs. bad names, theoretically. 11:40:54 gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:41:26 -!- MrMc [~user@brln-4db9c69a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:42:20 MrMc [~user@brln-4db9c69a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:21 -!- MrMc [~user@brln-4db9c69a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:43:44 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:57 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:47:18 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 11:47:32 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:52:02 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-26-8.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:56:47 Sulimo [~angel@host133-226-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:58:43 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:59:17 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:00:44 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:01:21 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:03:16 how to copy the text in minibuffer? 12:04:52 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:05:07 hajovonta [vhojmv@83.170.105.241] has joined #lisp 12:05:23 hi 12:08:28 -!- drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:14:59 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:21:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:22:31 -!- tsuru```` is now known as tsuru` 12:25:44 chenbing`: exactly like in a normal buffer. 12:27:07 If you curstomize the variable enable-recursive-minibuffers you can even M-x replace-string and other in the mini buffer! 12:29:42 -!- mobydick [~textual@124-171-177-187.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 12:32:05 -!- blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:33:22 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@124.79.89.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:35:06 -!- surrounder [~surrounde@d130031.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: brb] 12:35:38 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:35:45 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@222.126.197.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:36:24 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-14-161.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:36:24 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-14-161.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 12:36:24 insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 12:36:36 surrounder [~surrounde@d130031.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 12:38:03 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:48 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 12:44:20 oudeis [~oudeis@27.38.152.209] has joined #lisp 12:45:58 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-pqvohhdqfgfwjxtd] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:49:36 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:50:11 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-196-91.uio.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:55:26 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:57:06 Eek, now hunchentoot's own docs have a broken link to the download 12:57:19 http://weitz.de/files/hunchentoot.tar.gz shows some kind of file-eating creature 12:57:38 am0c [~am0c@119.192.218.97] has joined #lisp 12:57:53 -!- myrice [~myrice@2001:da8:200:900e:0:5efe:a66f:4f8c] has left #lisp 12:57:53 Haha 12:58:13 -!- am0c [~am0c@119.192.218.97] has quit [Client Quit] 12:58:30 -!- allandee [~allandee@212.45.113.84] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:58:43 Xach: i guess edi failed relocating hunchentoot to github. i'll talk to him. 12:59:02 Xach: the 1.1.1 release is available from github now, too. sadly, https only :( 12:59:24 I have a copy :) 12:59:33 Xach: ok. 12:59:34 *Xach* will get self-referential and pull from quicklisp's archives for now 13:00:40 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.132.191] has joined #lisp 13:02:46 This is when I need a sophisticated system that lets me say "Roll back project X and all its dependencies to the working state" on the build side. 13:03:01 *Xach* has an unsophisticated system instead 13:03:12 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:03:27 am0c [~am0c@119.192.218.97] has joined #lisp 13:05:07 drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:45 Xach: Awesome fileeating creature 13:07:13 -!- waveman [~tim@124.170.43.134] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:11:58 Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-196-91.uio.no] has joined #lisp 13:18:15 acelent` [~user@sigma02.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 13:18:39 gtrak [~gtrak```@pool-173-67-58-11.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:39 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:19:06 allandee [~allandee@212.45.113.84] has joined #lisp 13:19:55 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:20:54 bhyde_ 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attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:28:55 -!- H4ns [5ce7dd01@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.231.221.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:32:01 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:32:52 nicdev_` [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:29 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:34:49 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125651 13:35:05 iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:33 a enigma function doubt 13:39:58 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 13:40:31 benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:41:29 H4ns [5ce7dd01@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.231.221.1] has joined #lisp 13:41:37 narf 13:42:41 chenbing`: it returns true when x is a list and there is a NIL element in it. 13:43:26 aren't people supposed to do exercises on their own? 13:43:47 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.156.113] has joined #lisp 13:44:32 akovalenko:you are smart man 13:49:09 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:50:29 duomo [~duomo@d90h103.public.simons-rock.edu] has joined #lisp 13:51:21 arstoien [~user@c-98-229-29-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:50 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.84] has joined #lisp 13:51:50 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.84] has quit [Changing host] 13:51:50 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 13:56:33 -!- am0c [~am0c@119.192.218.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:57:32 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 13:57:44 -!- xjrn [~chatzilla@c-76-21-48-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:20 dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-wotdraiylcdyxydd] has joined #lisp 14:01:41 H4ns: what's the issues with downloads only being available over https? 14:02:04 madnificent: Xach's quicklisp dist builder can't use https atm 14:02:21 actually, it can, now 14:02:35 *Xach* just added a call to curl 14:02:58 S1am [~guest@eth-209.20-homell.natm.ru] has joined #lisp 14:04:25 there's no library to handle the encryption within lisp then, i assume? 14:05:00 You assume too much. 14:05:36 either case, i couldn't find anything https specific on cliki 14:06:08 Xach: You asked for a python library I was thinking about that I'd like to call from lisp. Here is one: http://pytools.codeplex.com/wikipage?title=PyKinect Let's handwave parantheses :) 14:06:10 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:06:22 centipedefarmer [~centipede@68.91.203.34] has joined #lisp 14:07:10 madnificent: drakma is a library that can handle https. 14:07:12 madnificent: drakma can handle https urls. 14:07:21 Xach: *5* 14:07:31 should i say that drakma has https support? 14:07:42 jdz: you'd be too late. 14:07:49 ok, then i won't 14:07:59 jdz: not that i'd expected it not to be so, but it's not exactly bad to have it mentioned 14:08:03 jdz: btw, did you get my question regarding rfc2388 and modern mode? 14:08:08 Neronus: you don't like the existing CL kinect library? 14:08:32 -!- nicdev_` is now known as nicdev_ 14:08:38 H4ns: oh yes, i did. i also included the patch, but forgot to reply to your mail. sorry about that. 14:08:41 *madnificent* just realizes that this argument can only go about semantics. you always need to connect to non-standard stuff for https, as you need sockets. 14:09:01 jdz: thanks, so i can assume it will make it to quicklisp eventually, right? 14:09:12 benkard_ [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:f53f:81f4:4eeb:c6b3] has joined #lisp 14:09:14 Xach: OK, I give up :) 14:09:16 Xach: there's a new release of rfc2388 (1.4); i hope it does not mess anything up. 14:09:23 jdz: we'll see! 14:09:49 i guess i have the "messed up quicklisp" batch of this month :( 14:10:04 H4ns: it has found its way into quicklisp without much of my support until now, so i guess automagic is still there. 14:10:15 jdz: ok, cool 14:10:35 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 14:10:37 Neronus: well, i don't know how it compares to the python library. maybe it is inadequate or substandard in some way. have you checked it out? 14:10:57 jdz: when was it updated? 14:11:12 btw, i have a question i have not received any reaction here last time i asked: does anybody have experience converting from cvs to git on common-lisp.net 14:11:16 Xach: yesterday i think 14:11:33 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12:51 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:13:23 -!- benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:13:23 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 14:14:13 -!- newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:15:14 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has joined #lisp 14:15:46 cl-oauth was fixed just as i was preparing to go back to hunchentoot 1.1.1. 14:15:55 *Xach* waits for the current build to finish, rebuilds with 1.2.0 14:16:17 \o/ 14:17:05 agumonkey [~dummy@34.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:59 -!- xan_ [~xan@62.Red-2-138-181.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:21:16 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@68.91.203.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:21:19 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:f53f:81f4:4eeb:c6b3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:21:36 benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:f53f:81f4:4eeb:c6b3] has joined #lisp 14:25:07 Graah, slimv messed up my vim -.- I can't insert tabs anymore, and to be able to add a pair of parantheses when I forgot one I had to kill of that damned paredit mode, too. 14:26:30 centipedefarmer [~centipede@68.91.203.34] has joined #lisp 14:26:36 "can't insert tabs" seems like an improvement in CL source code. 14:26:44 <3 emacs 14:27:08 phryk: you meant vim tabs, as in multiple files/buffers, right? 14:27:49 no as in the tab key just gives me that code completion feature instead of inserting a tab. 14:27:54 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:28:26 phryk: do C-v Tab 14:28:30 Well, that is not so great. 14:28:59 herbieB_: Did you read what I wrote? 14:29:43 phryk: did anybody tell you that tabs are evil? 14:29:44 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.33] has quit [Quit: Offline] 14:29:46 phryk: I believe so. To insert a tab character (^I) and bypass the imap decrlaration, you can use C-v to escape it 14:30:33 -!- npat [~npat@77.49.152.215] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:30:33 herbieB_: If you read what I wrote, you should realized that I do not use emacs 14:30:37 phryk: But it's probably not slimv doing it, it's probably vim when you enable certain autocompletion features (as in, for me it also happens and I dont' use slimv) 14:30:42 phryk: ... 14:30:47 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:53 G'morning all. 14:31:03 phryk: He is giving you vim control sequences. 14:31:06 phryk: My guess is that you did not try what I said when in insert mode... 14:31:29 And xach knows what I'm saying better than the vim user. I give up. 14:31:46 C-v is actually quite an ancient quoting mechanism. 14:32:01 With C-v you do mean Control+v, don't you? 14:32:08 I do. 14:32:30 Then what do you mean with ^I ? To me ^ means control 14:32:31 *nyef* remembers "echo C-v ESC c" to reset a messed-up terminal. 14:32:50 phryk: Oh, ^I is just the ascii representation of the tab character 14:32:57 Ah 14:33:04 phryk: I guess I coudl have used \t 14:33:21 C-v in insert mode cancels the insert mode and puts me into visual mode 14:33:49 oh wai 14:33:51 t 14:33:59 ... in command mode? :P 14:34:18 ah that works, I'm confused by the C-v notation, to me that would be noted ^v 14:34:38 Sorry, in vim maps and whatnot, you use 14:34:52 No problem, my fault there. 14:35:06 Mhh I seem to have found a nice solution on vim.wikia.com 14:35:16 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1176449448.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:35:45 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-196-91.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:35:49 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:37:41 mphf or not 14:38:00 phryk: ^I actually IS control+I. try hitting it at the shell prompt 14:38:34 phryk: ^I is an old work-around for keybords not having a tab-key 14:38:46 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.176.220.95] has joined #lisp 14:38:54 spacefrogg: i don't believe you 14:39:10 krrrcks [~user@mail.systemhaus-brunner.de] has joined #lisp 14:39:18 jdz: what do you believe? 14:39:21 spacefrogg: is ^j for keyboards not having the enter key? 14:39:48 No, that's ^m. 14:40:01 nyef: no, i think it's ^j 14:40:15 jdz: it is for false mappings. yes. it is from times where you used teletype terminals 14:40:22 ^j is line-feed, ^m is carriage-return. 14:40:23 nyef: at least because with the DOS file endings i see ^Ms 14:40:27 -!- H4ns [5ce7dd01@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.231.221.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:40:35 jdz: ^j is \n ^m is \r 14:40:58 jdz: Try old-school mac file endings. It's all ^M without any ^J. 14:41:03 spacefrogg: I tried for a few weeks to start using ^] instead of escape to exit insert mode without leaving the home row. 14:41:04 spacefrogg: i have not seen any teletype terminal. do they only have letter keys and a control key? 14:41:06 spacefrogg: It didn't take :( 14:41:12 rstandy [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:41:23 herbieB_: ;) for me it id. 14:41:26 did* 14:41:51 Somethign is just so satisfying to finish typing by slamming the upper left hand of my keyboard 14:41:56 nyef: but on unixoids enter key is supposed to be linefeed, right? 14:42:15 jdz: keyboard mapping weren't always standardised. 14:42:19 mappings* 14:42:26 Cooked? Yes. Raw, sometimes not. 14:44:23 Oh wait 14:44:35 I just noticed shift+tab still inserts a shift. 14:44:51 Aka "Holy shit, someone thought this through!" 14:46:01 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:47:54 benkard_ [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:b0aa:b85a:3ccf:7490] has joined #lisp 14:48:42 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 14:49:03 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 14:50:07 jsarrel [~jsarrel@66-191-161-122.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:50:13 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:50:18 dnjaramba_ [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 14:50:50 -!- rtoym changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: CMUCL 20c, Hunchentoot 1.2.0, ABCL 1.0.0, SBCL 1.0.52, R.I.P John McCarthy. 14:50:55 Woooo cmucl! 14:51:17 Woohoo! 14:51:44 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:f53f:81f4:4eeb:c6b3] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:51:44 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 14:52:07 ... that reminds me, I really do need to see about raiding the CMUCL copy of CLX for build fixes at some point. 14:52:15 www.cmucl.org is not yet updated :( 14:52:34 but at least #lisp is 14:53:43 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:55:20 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f208:b0aa:b85a:3ccf:7490] has quit [Quit: benkard] 14:56:22 -!- chenbing` [~user@125.122.211.164] has left #lisp 14:57:14 Is there a difference between (if) and (when) besides that (when) doesn't take an else-form? 14:57:36 H4ns [5b3d467f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.70.127] has joined #lisp 14:57:40 phryk: implicit PROGN in case of WHEN 14:59:20 jdz: That means I can provide more then one form that are evaluated when the test-form evaluates as true, right? 14:59:30 s/then/than/ 14:59:38 yes 15:00:26 KingNato_ [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 15:00:26 -!- KingNato_ [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:00:32 I'm doing my first batch of C programming since I really started to understand Lisp... Man I hate it. 15:00:41 Every single thing I do is so ugly :-) 15:01:05 I used to have a truck like that, too. 15:01:15 Xach: and now? 15:01:41 i was thinking about http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/msg/bfa9c2f188d98e6d 15:01:44 to make things worse, the code I'm writing is mostly JNI 15:01:46 -!- KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:03:47 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 15:04:22 arstoien` [~user@c-98-229-29-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:24 -!- arstoien [~user@c-98-229-29-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:05:23 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:06:32 hugod [~hugod@70.24.180.190] has joined #lisp 15:06:47 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@27.38.152.209] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:09:23 loke: do c++, use boost 15:09:32 its reasonably good 15:09:55 maxm-: it's 15:11:39 *maxm-* is being persecuted for his folksy interwebs grammar 15:11:41 maxm-: No. C++ is never good 15:12:09 a right tool for the right job had been my approach.. Death to the purists :-) 15:12:10 This is just glue code in native Android to interface with an underlying library 15:12:30 xan_ [~xan@65.Red-95-122-110.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:42 maxm-: exactly. C++ is never the right tool for any job. If you think you need it instead of C, you should go to something higher level 15:13:03 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:14:03 loke: you are wrong. c++ is great, and i enjoy c++ programming much more than c programming. 15:14:05 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has joined #lisp 15:14:24 H4ns: good for you 15:15:20 H4ns: you are wrong. etc. 15:15:40 oudeis [~oudeis@222.126.197.129] has joined #lisp 15:15:43 dlowe: just blowing the same horn. 15:15:46 one of the most valuable habits one can develop is to learn to recognize people who are just itching / trolling for an argument... 15:15:53 H4ns: :) 15:16:08 this is what's wrong with c++: /Modern C++ Design/ (Alexandrescu) 15:16:31 I happen to agree with loke, but no one's opinion is going to be changed on irc 15:16:42 so there's not really any point 15:17:01 and this isn't the anti-C++ channel 15:17:05 dlowe: exactly. 15:17:07 my answer to this: if you are so smart, why are you so poor. At which point they usually tell me they are self-made millionairs, irc'ing via butler at their poolside :-) 15:17:07 I will certainly use the statements to form opinions, but not usually about the languages in question. 15:17:08 dlowe: no it is 15:17:15 dlowe: is there an anti-C++ channel? :-) 15:17:22 loke: I think that's #c 15:17:32 Xach: haha 15:17:37 dlowe: But I want to somewhat hate C as well 15:17:45 at least a bit 15:17:55 loke: post on a newsgroup 15:18:01 dlowe: Good idea 15:18:19 dlowe: I'm sure there are plenty of people ready to change their opinion once they hear my arguments. 15:22:34 cgo [~user@99-123-152-51.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:38 npat [~npat@77.49.152.215.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:28:25 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-153-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:28:46 -!- npat [~npat@77.49.152.215.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:29:16 chenbing` [~user@125.122.211.164] has joined #lisp 15:29:38 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 15:29:53 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125652 15:30:13 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-153-16.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:31:07 chenbing`: you have no termination condition 15:31:33 e,let me think about 15:31:48 loke: I mentioned you in my ELCM talk, by the way. Though I think I had a brain freeze and got the country wrong. 15:31:58 -!- bhyde_ [~bhyde@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 15:32:28 linux kernel, gcc, pretty much entire gnu toolchain is a pretty good evidence you can write good software in C 15:32:37 Xach: thanks. nice :-) 15:32:43 Xach: why did you mention me? 15:32:55 loke: Was talking about the benefits of using amazon's CDN. 15:32:59 altho its more painful then c++, without using a nicely developed utility library for lists/hashes etc 15:33:49 Xach: oookay 15:33:58 Xach: so where do I fit in? 15:34:48 Hmm, maybe I got the user wrong. I had someone say that everything they downloaded would time out. 15:35:01 Xach: yeah, that happened to me 15:35:18 But then it worked ok when I switched to the CDN. 15:35:23 Ok, phew. 15:35:36 You might have talked to other people about it too 15:35:41 oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:54 -!- hajovonta [vhojmv@83.170.105.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37:19 Wow, the Singapore region was almost 3x the traffic of Japan for October! 15:37:26 *Xach* wonders if that was all loke 15:37:30 :-) 15:37:36 Possibly 15:37:48 How many downloads was it? 15:37:50 Check the standard deviation. :) 15:38:19 loke: about 10,000 15:38:28 Xach: By the way, at what point do you consider a library complete enough for inclusion in QL? 15:38:36 Xach: 10k from Singapore? 15:39:00 Ask a career question ,is it possible for Western World programer get a part time contact for work at home? Don't laugh at me ,i from eastern 15:39:06 loke: the singapore region, i.e., anything that amazon decides is best served by its singapore content cache location. 15:39:24 Xach: Hmm... That would possibly cover Malaysia and Indonesia as well 15:39:37 and likely Brunei, if there are any lispers there 15:39:43 chenbing: Yes. 15:40:08 Thailand as well? 15:40:23 Thailand should definitely have their own though 15:41:13 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:41:31 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has joined #lisp 15:41:53 The bill is broken into US, Europe, Tokyo, Singapore, South America. Not especially consistent. 15:42:06 US & Europe each have about 21,000 requests. 15:42:26 Hmm... 15:42:33 and for September, Singapore had about 3,700 requests. 15:42:37 OK, so Singapore would cover all of South East Asia 15:42:45 Xach: nothing for Australia? 15:42:46 thanks Zhivago ,from which kind sites(company?career?job) can search for these infomation? for example a site? 15:42:52 loke: not in the bill. 15:42:56 hmm 15:43:08 chenbing: I don't know. 15:43:14 I don't think AU has an Internet yet. 15:43:20 -!- arstoien` is now known as arstoien 15:43:21 sellout-: you're right 15:43:42 sellout-: they have something, but it's a far cry from what the rest of us call Internet 15:43:50 npat [~npat@77.49.152.215.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:46:29 Xach: May I ask how much it costs you to serve quicklisp? 15:47:30 Neronus: the amazon bill is about $1/month. 15:47:46 ah, right, that's acceptable :) 15:47:54 It's a good deal 15:48:01 Xach: can you afford it? 15:48:06 *loke* would like to donate 15:48:18 I donated for SBCL, might just as well donate for QL 15:48:37 -!- BrianRice [~water@174-21-117-191.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:49:21 I can afford the amazon bill. I have used donations to pay for things like improved hardware for the build server, backup disks, UPSs. 15:49:39 I also used donations to help travel to ECLM to speak about Quicklisp. 15:49:59 -!- lanthan__ [~ze@pD9E3ABFE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:50:00 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.156.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:50:15 *Xach* rattles his tip jar at http://www.quicklisp.org/donations.html 15:50:26 Cool. I'll drop something in there later 15:50:58 BrianRice [~water@174-31-148-97.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:07 lanthan__ [~ze@pD9554505.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:21 done 15:51:38 how much do you want, by the way? 15:51:47 I just donated a bit now 15:52:20 Whatever you like - I do not have any pressing Quicklisp needs that I can solve with more money right now. 15:52:41 If you get enough money you can hire a minion :) 15:52:49 cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.220.143] has joined #lisp 15:52:56 (typep 2 'bit) ;; better donate a most positive fixnum 15:52:57 That would take a lot of money, not something I think is realistic any time soon. 15:55:39 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:56:05 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:56:29 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 15:57:52 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-220-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 15:58:12 -!- Amyn [~abennama@64.208.49.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:58:22 tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-220-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:24 good bye 16:05:28 http://nikodemus.github.com/sb-texinfo/ # getting there... 16:05:38 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0/20111026191032]] 16:06:58 nikodemus: https://gitorious.org/iolib/texinfo-docstrings has some patches from luis 16:08:12 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:10:12 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:10:36 fe[nl]ix: hm. looks divergent enough to be painful to pick through :/ 16:11:49 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:13:47 xjrn [~chatzilla@c-76-21-48-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:36 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:19:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:24:16 -!- duomo [~duomo@d90h103.public.simons-rock.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:26:50 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:23 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-220-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 16:28:53 tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-220-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:02 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:30:18 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:33:46 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:34:01 duomo [~duomo@d90h103.public.simons-rock.edu] has joined #lisp 16:34:45 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@93-63-185-248.ip29.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:34:54 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:38:47 akovalenko: chipz! so would it suffice to pull from git, or are there additional steps? 16:39:10 -!- levi` is now known as levi 16:39:19 Xach: it would suffice (if you mean Nathan's github repository) 16:41:15 tanglisha [~tanglisha@c-71-231-137-202.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:26 aye 16:41:33 *Xach* goes git for chipz just this once 16:41:38 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.231.148] has joined #lisp 16:42:19 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.132.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:48:29 -!- passionke [~Administr@60.176.46.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:49:05 passionke [~Administr@60.176.46.43] has joined #lisp 16:51:05 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.2.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:52:37 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:56:34 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.169.81.241] has joined #lisp 16:56:34 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.169.81.241] has quit [Changing host] 16:56:34 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 16:57:06 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:57:40 jayar [~jrbass@c-71-230-45-98.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:00 can anyone help me turn write protect off on this usb? 16:58:12 jayar: wrong channel. 16:58:30 oh whoops 16:58:39 -!- jayar [~jrbass@c-71-230-45-98.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:00:04 -!- passionke [~Administr@60.176.46.43] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:01:31 loke: I don't really filter like that. If someone asks for a library to be included, and it has a license that permits it, and a little bit of info about it, I will probably add it. 17:01:43 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:02:19 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:02:44 is there a conventional extension for a file that contains sexprs that are not lisp code? 17:03:00 df_aldur: I don't know if there is a conventional extension. I use .sexp. 17:03:11 sbcl uses lisp-expr. 17:03:15 Some SBCL files use .lisp-expr, which I find too ugly to contemplate. 17:03:50 .lisp and a comment at the top could be fine too. 17:04:14 thanks 17:04:26 I suggest .sex for ms-dos compatibility. 17:06:14 passionke [~Administr@60.176.46.43] has joined #lisp 17:09:46 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-236-79.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 17:09:53 i use sexp as well 17:10:05 Xach: Well, I was thinking about what I should focus on in order to get my gdata stuff into QL 17:10:16 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@68.91.203.34] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:10:36 loke: ah. well, if it does something useful, that's a start. 17:10:44 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: gogogo!] 17:10:49 Xach: Well, it dones. Kinda :-) 17:10:58 -!- oiiii [~oiiii@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:11:08 Xach: I suppose I should focus on getting at least one of the products "complete" 17:12:20 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:28 -!- e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-bspjanzjghwugwpn] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:14:55 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:15:42 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:18:38 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:18:50 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-72.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:21:04 loke: have a look at http://www.informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html 17:23:28 pjb: I saw that one before 17:23:41 pjb: to me, that's kind of a "worst of both worlds" solution :-) 17:28:05 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 17:28:25 loke: unfortunately, it turns out like that, yes. 17:29:03 loke: Are you writing a driver or a new unix kernel? 17:29:19 pjb: you mean my current ventures into C? 17:29:22 Yes. 17:30:59 pjb: I'm writing an SNDH audio player for Android. I'm using a pre-existing decoder library which contains a CPU emulator (SNDH songs are actually M68k programs). This library is written in C, so the backend player part also needs to be C. Basically, I'm forced to do JNI as well as OpenAL, both of which are terribly painful API's :-) 17:31:05 I mean :-( 17:31:42 I'm still trying to get slimv to work correctly. 17:32:27 -!- krrrcks [~user@mail.systemhaus-brunner.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:32:53 I set g:slimv_swank_cmd in my .vimrc and :scriptnames indicates that slimv is loaded, however I do not get the menu depicted in http://kovisoft.bitbucket.org/tutorial.html nor do I get any other change besides that it changed some of the options (like activate omni completion) 17:33:07 loke: You can call foreign libraries from Lisp too... 17:33:13 pjb: Yep 17:33:24 pjb: You can't (yet) run Lisp on Android though 17:33:36 You'd have more fun porting a CL implementation to Android. 17:33:43 pjb: That's true 17:34:08 Instead of spending X time hacking C, you could spend X*0.9 time porting a CL implementation to Android, and X*0.1 time writing your stuff in lisp. 17:34:14 pjb: Actually been looking into that. Actually being able to bring compiled fasls from ABCL into Android 17:34:46 loke: did you sent your findings to ehu? 17:34:57 lain_ [~lain@p5795BBAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:01 p_l: I've been talking to easye about it 17:35:31 pjb: why has that not been viable even in Clojure? (very slow load time) 17:36:01 p_l: but, I haven't got anything to show for my efforts yet 17:36:22 felideon: clojure murdered Android's GC 17:37:11 loke: actually, kawascheme looks pretty good in android 17:37:20 there was a fix for initial load time, and someone even got runtime code emit, i think, but overall the GC costs were making it *slooow* 17:37:35 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.176.220.95] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 17:37:40 p_l: My idea is to have a REPL running on your computer, talking to the backend on Android. For actual deployment, there would be no REPL, nor a compiler on it. You'd run the fasls through the dexer and then generate an APK (androig application package) from it. So, no compiler nor a REPL on the android device itself 17:37:43 p_l: how would that be avoided with a CL implementation? 17:38:18 p_l: that would work around the slowness, as the slow stuff (compiler, loader, etc.) is only used during development. 17:38:51 felideon: ehu mentioned using preallocated cache of objects 17:38:55 loke: some of my programs use those in runtime 17:39:09 dlowe: well, then those programs would not run on Android 17:39:15 :'( 17:39:18 dlowe: it's rare though 17:39:18 -!- passionke [~Administr@60.176.46.43] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:39:22 you'd be able to work around that 17:39:49 Essentially, LOAD, COMPILE, EVAL and a few others would be off-limits 17:39:55 passionke [~Administr@60.176.46.43] has joined #lisp 17:40:06 p_l: ah this is where my ignorance kicks in, but nice to see there is an interest. 17:40:20 Disregard my problem, I'm retarded. only gvim has menus m( 17:40:57 nikodemus: Will sb-texinfo ever be a portable project? 17:41:25 iwillig [~ivan@ool-44c473a8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:25 well, time to go to sleep 17:49:41 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:50:39 lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:53:37 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:54:56 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-44c473a8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:55:16 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:55:41 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@pool-96-226-69-239.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:57:08 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:58:13 wildnux [~wildnux@pool-96-226-69-239.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:01 iwillig [~ivan@ool-44c473a8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:02 -!- dnjaramba_ [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 17:59:20 Xach: did you decide on which Hunchentoot release is going into the next quicklisp dist yet? 18:00:21 H4ns: leaning 1.2.0 18:00:33 The build is clean right now. 18:01:11 Xach: would you still consider 1.2.1? the code changes are minor, and the documentation updates are important. i'd make the release tomorrow or tonight, if required. 18:01:28 I can do that. 18:02:08 Xach: ok, i'll do the release tomorrow if that suffices. 18:02:27 centipedefarmer [~centipede@68.91.203.34] has joined #lisp 18:02:32 Should be fine. You are hours ahead of me, anyway. 18:02:32 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@pool-96-226-69-239.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:02:39 Xach: ok, thanks. 18:02:40 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:02:56 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has joined #lisp 18:03:02 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has quit [Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...] 18:03:30 -!- arstoien [~user@c-98-229-29-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:03:35 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:04:54 arstoien [~user@c-98-229-29-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:58 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-81-125-196.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:07:50 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has joined #lisp 18:10:35 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:11:19 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:11:29 Xach: possibly. i'm open to patches, but i do want to keep it so that on sbcl it has no external deps, so that we can use it to build the sbcl manual 18:12:22 -!- lain_ [~lain@p5795BBAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:12:22 the amount of sbcl specifics isn't huge, really 18:12:46 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:15 ...but i'm not likely to spend time porting it very soon myself. possibly later, though 18:13:40 Why do people copy it into their own source? 18:14:43 because otherwise their doc-build looks like "sbcl --load magic/path/to/sbcl/doc/manual/docstrings.lisp, i guess 18:15:08 i know that's why i copied it -- originally i did that, but people complained... and not without reason 18:15:31 possibly also because they tweak it in some sbcl-manual hostile way 18:15:38 ah, so if it's a contrib, they can just require it. 18:15:44 exactly 18:16:07 *Xach* attains Context 18:16:12 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:16:47 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has joined #lisp 18:19:17 -!- passionke [~Administr@60.176.46.43] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:22:17 situ [~quassel@223.191.86.240] has joined #lisp 18:22:48 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:23:53 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-194-178.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 18:25:28 paul0 [~user@200.146.127.182.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 18:26:33 -!- xjrn [~chatzilla@c-76-21-48-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:27:30 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:52 Fare [~Fare@74.125.59.116] has joined #lisp 18:29:01 ... Bwah? I wrote out my data model using DEFSTRUCT? Why the heck did I do that?!? 18:29:37 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-44c473a8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:30:32 It's easy to switch to CLOS. 18:30:49 my-clos:defstruct instead of cl:defstruct 18:31:25 udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 18:32:08 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-vfkweirvtkvigzvb] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:32:56 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: run away] 18:36:09 Is there any portable defadvice-style thing for CL? I'll soon become tired of custom one-time-redefinition hacks.. 18:37:08 pjb: Sure, or I could just do it manually. But moving over a live image is a bit tricky. It's going to be easier to just kill the fasls, update the sources, and bounce the server. 18:37:24 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@68.91.203.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:37:25 akovalenko: it's easy to implement it. Apart of course on CL functions. 18:37:39 nyef: yes. 18:37:49 nyef: what are you modifying? 18:38:17 nyef: unless you can walk your whole data structures to substitute standard objects for structure objects. 18:38:20 akovalenko: I thought someone had done something like that before. But I can't remember where. 18:38:28 pjb: my-clos:defstruct? nice. Where is it? 18:38:33 it's not so easy to reimplement it with acceptable quality, however, so I wanted to ensure that I'm not reinventing the wheel, or at least I'm not alone in reinventing /that/ wheel. 18:38:37 Fare: under your fingers :-) 18:38:39 pjb: I can do that, actually, but it's a bit of a nuisance. 18:38:46 pjb: thanks 18:38:53 Fare: otherwise, I have various define-structure or define-entity macros to offer. 18:38:59 sure 18:39:13 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-138.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 18:39:20 a one-package-prefix upgrade would be nice, though 18:39:23 that's a great idea 18:39:48 p_l: The app server for work. Still in the early prototype stage. 18:39:57 akovalenko: well, if the question is whether there's a defadvice available thru quicklisp, I don't know any. Perhaps you could contribute one to Alexandria? 18:40:26 akovalenko: but with enough googling, I think you'll find a couple of honest defadvice implementations. 18:40:29 *Fare* is looking for alpha-testers for xcvb as a replacement of asdf. 18:41:09 -!- H4ns [5b3d467f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.70.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:41:20 nikodemus [~Nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:42:20 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:44:14 Fare: what does being an alpha tester involve? 18:45:05 Trying to use it to compile stuff at the REPL, and telling me what most important features to write next (or whether to throw the whole thing down the ditch) 18:45:25 H4ns [5b3d467f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.70.127] has joined #lisp 18:45:26 Right now, I'm adding a feature "load an ASDF system directly". 18:46:02 as in, naming things from command line that haven't been converted to xcvb yet. 18:47:26 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-218-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:26 I've seen an encapsulation-based stuff for cmucl/sbcl, but to make it efficient, I'd have to work with even lower level than sb-int:encapsulation -- otherwise it uses eval en each call. That fdefn-stuff is great for redefinition support, etc., but then portability becomes out of question.. 18:47:57 akovalenko: So do unportable stuff on various implementations, and provide a portable interface? 18:49:08 (in general, I'm trying to make xcvb more of a drop-in replacement for asdf) 18:49:22 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Quit: Time left until the Epochalypse: 26yrs 10wks 6days 20hrs 24mins 15secs] 18:50:33 Fare: are there specific asdf features in active use that make it difficult? 18:50:43 no. 18:51:05 Wow, that is contrary to my expectation. 18:51:09 Interesting. 18:51:10 the asdf maintainer is playing well with me, so far 18:51:28 what difficulties are you having? 18:51:40 It's not the asdf maintainer you have to play with, it's the people who write the .asd files, now and in the past. 18:51:44 Xach: would an additional option to find-system that doesn't load the system help you? 18:52:02 oh yes, I'm trying to view .asd files as mostly black boxes 18:52:12 akovlenko: i have sketch somewhere which gets rid of the eval, but it never got urgent enough to finish - the story of my life... 18:52:26 it's lisp files, and pretty much the only constraint is that in foo.asd there must be a defsystem foo. 18:52:33 Fare: I think it would be a good thing to have, though if I wanted it in the past for something specific, I can't remember what. 18:52:36 in addition to arbitrary crap 18:53:08 Fare: That's what I mean. Are there things in .asd files that are hard to work with? 18:53:42 The difficulties I have are arbitrary CL code to conditionally load build-time requirements, for example. 18:53:45 defining multiple systems; defining plenty of methods on which the build depends; creating packages and utilities used during the build itself 18:53:58 when converting to xcvb, the latter is the worst. 18:54:29 I basically have to either load the .asd when building with xcvb (yuck) or move the code to a new .lisp file that the .asd will specially load 18:54:41 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:54:43 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909]] 18:54:56 Feh, no nick completion on this client. was to: akovalenko 18:55:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:55:44 I am considering modifying xcvb so it will dynamically intercept the attempts to load systems, and build an *actual* graph of build dependencies, including implicit dependencies from the .asd file. 18:56:17 Fare: what will you do with that graph? 18:56:41 obvious application: build lisp code in parallel, with system-level granularity. 18:56:56 or just building dependency graph 18:57:01 Heh. So when I'm done with Toot I'll build a blog engine on top of it and call it Horn. As in "toot your own ..." 18:57:10 So you will save it away somewhere for future use? 18:57:11 maybe you already have this dependency information with quicklisp? 18:57:22 or do you trust the :depends-on in the defsystem objects? 18:57:27 Ha ha ha. 18:57:56 I'm not sure how to interpret your laughter. sounds sinister. 18:57:59 I use the dependency graph to download everything for a system before it is needed. That helps for projects that are in Quicklisp, but does not help much for external/local libraries. 18:58:18 centipedefarmer [~centipede@68.91.203.34] has joined #lisp 18:58:27 Oh, wow, someone managed to update lisp.org. 18:58:37 -!- lanthan__ [~ze@pD9554505.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:58:44 "someone" is Daniel Herring, I believe. 18:58:46 how do you build your graph? load a system from "scratch", see what was pulled? 18:58:53 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1176449448.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:00:36 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@94.144.63.8] has joined #lisp 19:00:39 Fare: something like that. 19:01:53 ultimately the only reliable way. I just want to do it incrementally, for O(n) performance and applicability to building stuff in parallel 19:02:20 One additional problem with building stuff in parallel, is ASDF that accept magic configuration through either features or environment variables 19:02:44 it means that two compilations of foo.asd by the same compiler can have wildly different meanings. 19:02:59 I think that's the thing I hate most. 19:03:35 -!- situ [~quassel@223.191.86.240] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:06:13 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:07:18 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp 19:08:30 sanitize the environment, problem solved 19:08:42 and the features aren't going to randomly change, are they? 19:10:26 nikodemus_ [~Nikodemus@GGGKMMCCCXXXIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 19:10:46 jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:32 situ [~quassel@223.183.135.68] has joined #lisp 19:13:42 -!- nikodemus [~Nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:15:44 foom: that's more or less what I'm doing 19:16:04 xcvb takes -D and -U arguments, a la CPP, if you want to tweak your features. 19:16:52 it's a bit trickier when xcvb is used from a REPL: how do you tell which of the *features* are intended by the user to be passed as -D or -U ? 19:17:26 especially as they change between to calls to xcvb 19:18:04 Administrator [~quassel@bas2-toronto61-2925081504.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:18:25 I suppose XCVB will cop out, and require the user to explicitly configure xcvb variables if he wants to tweak -D or -U in his systems. 19:18:29 -!- Administrator is now known as Guest43544 19:18:50 and normalize by sorting the features being -D'ed and -U'ed. 19:19:04 pspace [~andrew@adsl-75-10-158-45.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:21 I was discussing eval, meaning, etc., with friends recently 19:21:03 it struck me that all our software is very brittle wrt context, and that the only tools we have so far to make it less brittle are protective membranes to protect from the context, and never the fluid adaptations we dream of building to embrace the context. 19:21:24 DelPuerto [~youguy@139.pool85-56-116.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 19:21:59 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@139.pool85-56-116.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:02 well, you can always use the context in the build-key if you like rebuilding excessively often... 19:22:17 -!- surrounder [~surrounde@d130031.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:22:34 I got a tiny project with a package of its own, and I'm reading some persistent data stored in a plist in a file. When I (read) the contents of the file (for storing in a variable) some symbols in the plist get read as common-lisp-user::foo, others as-is. How can I make sure all symbols land in my package when reading them? 19:23:37 DelPuerto [~youguy@139.pool85-56-116.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 19:24:04 antoszka: bind *package* for the duration of reading 19:24:16 surrounder [~surrounde@d130031.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 19:24:48 Xach: OK, but *package* expects the PACKAGE struct, should I just (make-package) and pass it to the let binding? 19:25:05 antoszka: FIND-PACKAGE. 19:25:09 antoszka: (let ((*package* (find-package ...))) ...) 19:25:15 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-138.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:25:16 ah, find. 19:25:23 -!- nikodemus_ [~Nikodemus@GGGKMMCCCXXXIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:25:28 thx 19:25:55 foom: I'm doing (part of) that: using the asdf:implementation-identifier in the build-key. 19:26:03 and the *features* 19:26:36 (well, not yet the *features* in the committed repo) 19:26:50 Honestly parallel builds had been solved in C land long time ago... 19:27:11 maxm-: yup 19:27:15 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:27:15 bjam works absolutely beatifully with it, as is linux kernel kbuild 19:27:18 distcc and ccache do it 19:27:34 lisp is tricky with inter-dependencies 19:27:34 what does bjam do? 19:27:47 one thing is knowing how to do it 19:27:55 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2430.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:28:01 bjam => crazy build system boost uses.. DWIM make system, what Makefiles sohuld have been 19:28:06 another thing is knowing how to do it in a way that leverages the existing code base. 19:28:21 exe myexe: *.cpp subproj... Thats all 19:28:28 Xach: Hm. I'm still getting a mixed package: (:TYPE COMMON-LISP-USER::CLIENT :NAME "foo" ) 19:28:42 all the dependencies, subdependencies, variants (debug build release), flags etc handled automatically 19:28:46 build from any directory 19:28:49 antoszka: where the file just has (:type client :name "foo")? 19:28:49 like git 19:28:59 lanthan [~ze@pD9FEB93B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:10 Or, just like automake. 19:29:13 Xach: More or less. 19:29:21 antoszka: what does your reading code look like? 19:29:32 previously with xcvb I focused too much on getting it done at all, not enough in integrating in existing workflows. 19:29:38 foom: kind of but it does not have intemediate step of generating makefiles, it just builds it right away as one tool 19:29:47 yea, well, bjam really pissed me off the couple times I've intersected with it. 19:30:10 documentation is a bit weird for it, but once you learn the basics it works pretty great 19:30:14 antoszka, missing (in-package) somewhere? 19:30:36 Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125658 19:31:01 foom: do you have suggestions on object cache management? 19:31:09 I was considering using the filesystem as a database 19:31:10 antoszka: you are undoing your careful package binding by using with-standard-io-syntax, which binds *package* 19:31:29 Xach: Ah, that explains it :) 19:31:53 antoszka: save yourself some time, check out cl-store 19:31:54 -!- DelPuerto [~youguy@139.pool85-56-116.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:32:26 maxm-: I'll have a look at that. Currently that code is partly based on some snippets I learned while reading PCL. 19:32:26 20 times faster, and handles clos objects/structs and whats not 19:32:33 cache/by-content/V/Y/VY5TTHSUM5HASH5OF5THE5CONTENTS 19:32:48 maxm-: But I wanted the file to be easily editable by hand. 19:32:53 ah 19:32:58 (which is why I stuck with plists) 19:33:09 and hardlinks (or symlinks?) in cache/by-intent/Z/Z/ZZ5TTHSUM5HASH5OF5THE5BUILD5KEY 19:33:30 well as long as db is small, then you good, but once you approach 10+meg files you will start hitting performance problem 19:33:47 or maybe neither hardlink no symlink, but a description file with a plist of metadata 19:34:04 and then your workspace would have symlinks to the cache 19:34:10 (or hardlinks?) 19:35:18 anyway. I suppose I will first try to just use blaze as a backend. 19:38:43 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-138.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 19:40:16 maxm-: Yeah, certainly a big linked-list-based struct will be shitty for large data. 19:41:21 aren't CL structs required to be backed by something O(1)? 19:41:57 -!- duomo [~duomo@d90h103.public.simons-rock.edu] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 19:42:02 Ralith: Linked-lists aren't O(1). 19:42:08 yes. 19:42:11 that's the point. 19:43:08 Ah. Try s/struct/structure/, meaning the overall storage and not just the individual nodes/records/whatever. 19:44:32 I don't quite follow 19:45:08 I meant to ask if CL structs are specified as backed by a data structure that ensures access to slots is O(1) 19:45:13 Oh, sorry. 19:45:38 Ralith: no. 19:45:42 interesting. 19:45:54 Ralith: I don't remember the syntax, because I don't use it, but you can explicitly back them with a list. 19:46:02 (defstruct (my-struct (:type list) ...) 19:46:04 or something 19:46:09 Oh! Right, there's the list structure option thing. 19:46:26 ...) 19:46:40 Or you can use vector-backed structures. 19:47:10 *Ralith* reads clhs 19:47:30 but vectors aren't guaranteed to have O(1) access either. 19:47:39 Otherwise, you end up with a STRUCTURE-CLASS... 19:48:38 You could argue that vectors are virtually guaranteed to NOT have O(1) access time on a modern system, with the variables being /a priori/ largely unpredictable. 19:49:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-218-135.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:50:10 pkhuong: they aren't? o.O 19:50:14 Ralith: Sorry, I used the word struct in a general way, rather than meaning a CL-struct. 19:50:27 Ralith: Just a linked-list-based data structure. 19:50:56 antoszka: I expected as much; I wasn't commenting on your statement so much as expressing idle curiosity it had invoked. 19:51:04 Uhm. 19:51:27 ? 19:51:39 As in yeah. 19:51:52 never heard 'um' used to mean 'yeah' before o.O 19:51:53 Polish uhm isn't portable :). 19:51:59 Ralith: they're not guaranteed to. But it's extremely likely that they do, modulo cache effects and whatnot than nyef is presumably alluding to. 19:52:01 oh 19:52:39 gigamonkey: I'm trying to imagine what possible gain there could be from *not* guaranteeing that 19:53:06 cache effects, random interrupts, clock scaling, someone putting the entire machine to sleep for their commute home in the middle of the operation, stuff like that. 19:53:40 if you consider those relevant, doesn't that mean you can make no guarantees (or even reasonable estimations) of complexity at all? 19:54:18 as I studied it, computational complexity is usually expressed in some abstract unit of CPU operations, too, not wall-clock time 19:54:44 You can mostly control for cache effects, but the rest really isn't something you can account for. 19:55:24 unless I'm deeply misunderstanding something, the rest isn't conventionally considered relevant. 19:56:30 xjrn [~chatzilla@c-76-21-48-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:00 And yet, sometimes it's important. 19:57:00 similarly, unless there's some corener case of caching which slows an operation by an unbounded amount, I'd think that issue could be outright ignored when wall-clock time isn't of direct concern. 19:57:05 sure 19:57:13 is there an asdf function that will tell you if a system is loaded (ie loaded-p), obviously I can test for stuff that should have been loaded with the package, but I was curious if asdf thought it had loaded something 19:57:17 but I'm not asking if the spec makes guarantees about wall-clock time 19:57:20 Well, my understanding is that you are right: for Big O analysis you typically imagine an idealized machine. The question is whether there are characteristics of modern machines that make that analysis less useful than when machines were more like the idealized version. 19:57:24 but rather algorithmic complexity 19:57:40 s/package/system/ 19:58:03 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:58:42 E.g. If your data structure with theoretical O(1) data structure loses in practice to an O(N) data structure because of caching effects, then it just means that Big O analysis is not the only useful thing to think about. 19:59:24 And as to why the standard doesn't specify that vectors have to be O(1) it's presumably either because they figured it was so obvious or that simple market forces would take care of it. 20:00:17 I suppose that works; I'm used to thinking of standards as formalizing that sort of de-facto stuff explicitly, though. But I guess you have to draw a line somewhere. 20:01:17 it's certainly useful information to have still, e.g. if you're designing a system to scale massively, then being aware of algorithmic complexity concerns will save a lot of pain avoiding major design errors before a lot of work goes into them. 20:02:07 an awareness of when it's important to get hard numbers is probably increasingly important as well, though. 20:02:38 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:02:56 but I suspect it's harder to use experimental data to predict the behavior of a system under untested circumstances than it is to account for the subtleties of modern hardware in a more abstract analysis. 20:03:20 (of course, that's as much an argument for more thorough testing as anything else) 20:03:51 Neronus: Assuming my backscroll from ten hours ago is still relevant, cpython embedding has been attempted several times: pyffi, Python-on-Lisp, and my own burgled-batteries--the latter of which is the most recent, and probably the most complete, though it still has a ways to go (e.g., it still lacks a few things from PoL like redirection of stdout to a lisp stream and the ability to define lisp functions callable from Python). 20:04:06 (but sometimes you want to know if something can run on a big EC2 cluster before spending time implementing it and money renting the CPUs) 20:04:18 s/can run/is worth running/ 20:05:37 -!- situ [~quassel@223.183.135.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:07:49 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.231.148] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:11:40 also how could it be that a symbol is in a package's exports list but find-symbol and find-all-symbols both fail to return the symbol. Inspecting the symbol shows it bound to the macro function I expect. -- Sorry I am having a totally brain melting day, and was hoping someone could point out where that piece of it dribbled off to 20:12:25 bobbysmith007: Case-sensitivity? 20:12:43 bobbysmith007: how can you tell if it's in the package's export list? 20:13:03 nyef: thanks! , Xach: inspecting the package 20:13:08 gigamonkey: in acl2 vector accesses are O(n). Ok, acl2 is not CL, only a provable subset of CL. 20:13:40 Is there a function that lists a package's exports? Or is it only there via do-external-symbols? 20:13:52 lain_ [~lain@e178068050.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:14:03 -!- lain_ [~lain@e178068050.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:14:28 gigamonkey: my point is that perhaps there's more important things for a language to specify than a target efficiency for implementations. 20:14:55 A language, even called a programming language, might be used for something else than to build efficient machines. 20:15:34 Xach: the later. 20:15:34 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:16:54 Xach: of course, you can also use com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:package-exports 20:16:56 -!- pspace [~andrew@adsl-75-10-158-45.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:08 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0139eb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:43 hi 20:22:18 pjb: I don't disagree. That's another good reason to not specify things 20:22:34 --to leave them open for unforseen use cases. 20:24:45 nha [~prefect@5-74.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 20:26:29 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-72.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:36:54 francogrex [~user@109.130.95.81] has joined #lisp 20:40:19 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46:38 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-138.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:48:53 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:50:17 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 20:54:17 gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:48 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 20:55:30 -!- Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:55:47 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:57:06 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1176449448.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:00:12 -!- jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:57 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:50 astalla [~alessio@dynamic-adsl-94-36-45-245.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 21:05:48 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 21:06:08 mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 21:07:58 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:08:38 millerti [~millerti@dhcp-128-146-115-8.osuwireless.ohio-state.edu] has joined #lisp 21:10:11 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:03 Hey, guys. Please correct me if I'm not understanding quite right. The LISP macro system is so powerful because, at compile time, you can execute arbitrary code so as to generate arbitrary code, and this is facilitated by the fact that code and data use the same syntax/structure. You could conceivably do something similar in other languages, but less conveniently because code is not data in quite the same was as it is in L 21:11:40 millerti: thats pretty much the long and short 21:11:49 -!- agumonkey [~dummy@34.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:11:50 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-153-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:11:54 most of the time in other languages, it's not just a matter of representation 21:11:56 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-153-16.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:12:25 the code/data thing aside, lisp macros are hooks for altering compiler behavior. 21:12:25 sometimes you have to shell out to external compilers, or generate bytecode internal to pass to the same dynamic loaders you use for dlls/jars/etc 21:12:48 if another language offers that, then yeah, it's kinda similar. but code=data makes everything much more convenient (: 21:13:06 -!- dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-wotdraiylcdyxydd] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:13:19 millerti: the one bit that your description misses is that macros can operate at any granularity and can be composed in a reasonable way. 21:13:26 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-218-135.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:41 Something that's harder to do in other languages where you have to generate a whole source file and then compile it. 21:13:57 Well, and the fact that, IIUC, Lisp pulls the compiler or an interpreter along with your program so that if you generate code at runtime, you can easily execute that as well. To do that in C, say, is a huge pain, and only slightly more straightforward in Java, perhaps. 21:14:49 I'm not sure how unique this is to Lisp, but it's nice to have code as sort of a live, manipulable object. 21:14:50 LLVM has the potential to get a little closer from C, but it's still not something you're just going to drop in & have running in a day 21:14:54 millerti: though that's orthogonal to macros. 21:15:07 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 21:15:19 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@68.91.203.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:15:26 I.e. you could have macros without having the compiler available at runtime. 21:15:40 I mean, other languages have functions as first-class data (e.g. Haskell and even C to a certain extent), but that only goes so far, because you can't change it at runtime. 21:16:20 Yes. But that has nothing in particular to do with macros. 21:16:24 Well, macros are something that people tout as a great feature of Lisp. I've tried to imagine how you could do something that convenient in another sort of language (procedural, OO, etc.) 21:16:34 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@242.Red-88-24-175.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 21:16:39 Lisp is more than just macros, I guess, is what I'm saying. :) 21:17:52 benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has joined #lisp 21:18:11 One thing that I'm starting to understand about Lisp is that, yes, it's a functional language, but nobody is a purist about it. You can have side-effects, do procedural things, etc. Even the LOOP macro uses a domain-specific language that isn't functional in nature. 21:18:26 are some cffi-grovel developers here? grovel.lisp: (case (cffi:foreign-type-size :long) (4 (list "-m32"))) ; oops, should be :uintptr -- 32-bit long doesn't mean 32-bit system on Windows. 21:18:39 lisp is a general purpose language that has decent support for functional programming style 21:19:03 -!- tanglisha [~tanglisha@c-71-231-137-202.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Where did everyone go?] 21:20:15 I've been reading about Haskell recently. I think it's very interesting, but I find it amusing how they tout their quicksort implementation as an example of how great the language is. Even with the most clever compiler with perfect lazy evaluation, I can't imagine how that quicksort could be anything better than much worse than O(n^2) time, because of unavoidable copying and iterating to the ends of lists to concatenate. B 21:20:15 perhaps I'm just not thinking cleverly enough. 21:21:07 haskell isn't c++ template metaprogramming, which could escape the runtime bounds of a static testcase inside the compiler 21:21:08 ... Why would you need to iterate to the end of a lazy list to concatenate it? 21:21:10 I think their point is that you can just specify where results come from, and the compiler does a good job at picking what to run where on its own 21:21:30 instead of the programmer being burdened with that (to some point) 21:21:35 Phooodus: Yeah, so that's something that I think confuses those who were taught early LISP as a functional language, from an academic perspective. Common Lisp is not the same animal. 21:22:00 right, Common Lisp is a very plastic and multi-layered procedural language 21:22:11 on top of which many other paradigms can be built (or are built-in) 21:22:45 I would love to have a LISP-like hardware description language. 21:22:57 I think someone on this channel mentioned that that's done already, actually. 21:23:02 So never mind. :) 21:23:03 millerti: It's been done a few times before. 21:23:18 millerti: you are spelling lisp in all-caps (: 21:23:29 millerti: that's really not necessary anymore! it's not the 70s anymore (: 21:23:38 antifuchs: Not always. :) 21:23:48 Yes, sometimes I make that mistake. 21:23:56 hah 21:23:59 -!- Sulimo [~angel@host133-226-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:03 Although, to me LISP and Lisp are two different things. 21:24:09 well, yeah (: 21:24:20 ... not if you have a case-folding reader... 21:24:23 LISP is an abstract idea, of which Lisp is an implementation. :) 21:24:40 there is no implementation called "Lisp" anymore 21:24:48 (if there was one to begin with) 21:24:48 Well, Common Lisp... 21:25:04 ...is not called "Lisp" 21:25:18 schoppen1auer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:25:18 -!- schoppen1auer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 21:26:01 Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:04 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: 1/0] 21:26:08 I think it might even be backwards from that, where old implementations were called LISP and the family/style of languages is called Lisp :) 21:26:28 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:28:06 or lisp. 21:28:15 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:17 l'isp.. 21:28:25 LISP has that eerie dot-matrix sound to me 21:28:26 LisP, List Processor 21:28:34 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.95.81] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:28:49 akovalenko: what about the isp? 21:29:04 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has joined #lisp 21:30:56 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:32:25 millerti: macros were invented a few years after LISP. The first application of "code as data" has been in implementing LISP itself; code was written as first[x], data as (FIRST,X) and soon (FIRST X). 21:32:28 le 'ispe, en français :> 21:32:45 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:17 millerti: and indeed, even without macros, the fact that code has a uniform aspect is already something quite agreable. 21:33:39 Well, I certainly find it to be an elegant idea. :) 21:34:04 millerti: In normal language, if you don't like a[i], or need it to do something else, or you're implementing a higher level kind of array, you have to write ref(a,i) instead. In lisp, you write (aref a i) or (ref a i), it's the same thing. 21:34:07 -!- Fare [~Fare@74.125.59.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:34:48 In a grad course, we had to write a Lisp interpreter, and since it was interpreted, I monkeyed with run-time generated code, because my functions were just ((param param) code code) that is, any list starting with a list was a lambda, and you could assign that to a variable. 21:34:50 millerti: so even without macros, you already have some advantages from this, since you can abstract low level operators and replace them with high level operators without any psychological shock. 21:34:58 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:35:25 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:35:25 -!- easyE [AXqtLJc0Zh@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:36:18 sepuku [~sepuku@83.212.47.63] has joined #lisp 21:36:46 pjb: Do you mean something like 'overloading' + ? 21:37:39 No. If you want to write a matrix + in C, you have to write plus(b,c,a); This is a cognitive dissonance, wrt a=b+c; 21:38:26 -!- sepuku [~sepuku@83.212.47.63] has quit [Client Quit] 21:39:41 If you want to write a matrix + in LISP, you write (SETQ A (MPLUS B C)) instead of (SETQ A (PLUS B C)) it's the same thing. 21:40:40 I think you should be comparing (setf a (+ b c)) versus (setf a (mplus b c)). 21:40:52 Even if you consider that in later lisps, symbols named with special characters are introduced, so that you write in CL (setf a (+ b c)), you still have the similarity with a (setf a (m+ b c)), or you can even define a function named + in your own package (shadowing the symbol CL:+). 21:41:58 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:42:52 There's no aspect difference between (setf a (cl:+ b c)) and (setf a (matrix:+ b c)). It's relaxing. 21:44:05 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:53 iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:18 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 21:45:18 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 21:45:47 Why limit it C? C++ gives a=b+c. I think Fortran 90 allows that too. Where's the dividing line? 21:46:23 -!- cgo [~user@99-123-152-51.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:58 rtoyg: experimented C++ programmers will advise you not to overload operators other than for matrix. My point is of course more general than matrix arithmetic. 21:47:14 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has joined #lisp 21:47:25 It's (aref a i) and (ref a i) vs a[i] and ref(a,i). 21:47:46 It's (setf (aref a i) v) and (setf (ref a i) v) vs a[i]=v and set(a,i,v). 21:48:03 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:48:17 does C++ also allow overloading []? 21:48:29 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.50.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:48:29 Phooodus: yes, and also the , 21:48:35 right, thought so 21:48:42 Yes. but I'm not speaking of C++ either, but of all non lisp languages in general. 21:48:43 C++ is not the best example for this ;) 21:48:57 Phooodus: C++ allows to write Intelib. 21:49:05 #define PAIN(...) 21:49:16 Phooodus: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html#intelib 21:49:43 unintrinsic [~x3@cpe-173-174-58-152.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:59 -!- unintrinsic [~x3@cpe-173-174-58-152.austin.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 21:51:21 And even a=b+c; vs sad(b,c); is disputed, compared to (setf a (+ b c)) and (fun b c) 21:51:49 But this is another argument. 21:52:15 rtoyg: do you by chance know which maxima distribution includes the grid-restrained nelder mead impl in lisp as a contrib? 21:54:11 does anyone here have any strong feelings about clojure? 21:54:18 prxq: No, but if you give me the name of the actual file, I can probably look it up for you. 21:54:27 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:54:49 arstoien: I strongly ignore it, for not being a CL superset. 21:55:42 interesting--i war thinking of doing the same :) 21:55:53 *was 21:57:24 rtoyg: I didn't find it in the official maxima repository, but I got a mail for someone saying that it doesn't work anymore with maxima, and the errors he gets refer to the contrib dir. 21:57:32 maybe he put it there himself. 21:57:38 one file is called la.lisp 21:57:55 pibako [~user@77-255-43-26.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 21:58:03 another one is neldermead.lisp 22:01:21 marsell [~marsell@101.116.57.104] has joined #lisp 22:02:45 -!- ngz [~user@83.131.77.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:05:58 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d1a3c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:43 kovolvo [~user@p4FDACFB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:55 superflit [~superflit@71-33-156-49.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:18 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:13:56 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.207] has joined #lisp 22:14:34 -!- kovolvo [~user@p4FDACFB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 22:15:43 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:16:49 minion: negative capability -. 22:18:06 -!- acelent` is now known as acelent 22:18:30 -!- benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has quit [Quit: benkard] 22:19:50 arstoien: I've been keeping clojure on a back-burner interest. Hickey's "Are We There Yet?" talk really matched with the development model we use 22:20:54 bhyde_ [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:34 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has joined #lisp 22:22:41 -!- nha [~prefect@5-74.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:23:13 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@11-74-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:23:42 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.93.87] has joined #lisp 22:23:54 mishoo_ [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 22:24:42 gringomorcego [~gringo@c-24-63-173-131.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:44 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:26:23 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:27:38 -!- lanthan [~ze@pD9FEB93B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 22:28:38 lanthan [~ze@pD9FEB93B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:33 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:29:40 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-87-194-178.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:32:43 prxq: Can't find either neldermead.lisp or la.lisp in the current git version of maxima. I think the best bet is to either figure out what the error is or to post to the mailing list that some recent version of maxima broke his code. 22:35:11 rtoyg: I'll try to find out first where he did get it. Maybe my latest version will help, too. I am not sure he is aware of the difference between lisp and maxima. 22:36:11 -!- pibako [~user@77-255-43-26.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:37:22 he seems to be a power user, though 22:38:53 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.207] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:39:16 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.207] has joined #lisp 22:39:31 prxq: Ok. It's very possible that some internal changes to maxima have broken his code. It's quite easy to break someone's code. 22:39:32 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.220.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:39:49 indeed :-) 22:40:01 Phooodus: Thanks--I'll have a look at that talk. Clojure seems to be getting popular and I wonder if it will cause more people to take another look at lisp in general. 22:40:08 *prxq* wonders if he should make a project of the nelder mead code. 22:41:16 arstoien: you're aware that there's CL on the JVM as well, right? 22:41:33 arstoien: so, there's really no need to go with Clojure, if that's your goal. 22:41:47 -!- millerti [~millerti@dhcp-128-146-115-8.osuwireless.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Quit: millerti] 22:42:25 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:02 ehu: It's not my goal--I was just curious to see what people think about it since a number of my students are using it. 22:43:16 Kron [~Kron@69.166.22.207] has joined #lisp 22:43:42 -!- Kron is now known as Guest4207 22:44:02 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 22:44:44 pinterface: Duly noted. Anything to tell about your implementation? I'm still interested and might come back to it if I ever want to do something obscure. Or just something where the lisp alternative is somehow lacking :) 22:46:06 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:46:51 -!- lanthan [~ze@pD9FEB93B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 22:47:30 pinterface: Looks cool, though :) 22:47:46 lanthan [~ze@pD9FEB93B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:34 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-ad03c1a0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:50:27 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:51:35 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0139eb.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:52:59 pinterface: Is your blog featured on planet lisp? Otherwise I vote for its inclusion 22:54:14 Neronus: It is not. Xach's the guy to talk to about that sort of thing, I believe. 22:54:39 -!- astalla [~alessio@dynamic-adsl-94-36-45-245.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 22:56:57 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:58:24 -!- oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:00:34 Neronus: Right now most of the docs for burgled-batteries are tied up in docstrings and comments in the code. The basic goal is as-seamless-as-possible integration. Ideally, you won't know you're using Python under the hood. :) 23:02:40 pinterface: That was what I was hoping for. Make it easy to thinly wrap python libraries and make the result look like native lisp. As H4ns said, though, writing bindings that feel natural is not easy 23:02:45 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 23:03:18 Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:57 I'm having a little problem with cl-ppcre. I have (print (register-groups-bind (key) ("(.)" line))) with 'key' being an empty string and line being "foo". Still this prints NIL and key is empty afterwards. 23:04:16 And I guess that the overhead of calling into python and converting datatypes (assuming there is such a coercion going on) is small enough. We're not going to write high performance code with python anyway 23:04:21 This should just match an arbitrary char and put it into key. I have no clue where I'm going wrong. 23:05:13 mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 23:05:28 mishoo_ [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 23:05:39 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Client Quit] 23:05:40 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Client Quit] 23:06:12 oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:12 style question: special variables that are logically constants (i.e. always equalp) but not eql do you name them +foo+ or *foo* or something else? 23:06:25 -!- oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:07:02 phryk: you didn't put in a body? 23:07:13 oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:14 mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 23:07:14 Xach: What do you mean by body? 23:07:26 phryk: register-groups-bind introduces a scope during which the vars are bound. 23:07:29 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 23:07:34 phryk: like LET or MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND. 23:07:36 jasom: I alternate between ++ and ** muffs 23:08:00 phryk: it returns the value(s) of the last form in body. 23:08:10 argh 23:08:15 I realized that now. 23:08:16 jasom: oddly enough, for me it depends on availability of a useful defconstant macro that allows non-eql value handling (: 23:08:19 (Not so much on usage 23:08:37 Thanks, Xach. 23:08:47 if that macro isn't there, I just do defvar and ** muff them. 23:08:51 *Xach* lives to serve 23:09:25 Xach: Do you have any tips for not tripping over single parentheses when reading doc in a browser besides copying the examples into an editor that does parens-matching? 23:09:48 phryk: no 23:10:02 Darn. I've tripped over that a few times now. It's kinda frustrating 23:11:08 Neronus: Yeah, it's definitely a lot of work making it feel natural. And if the type coercion does turn out to be a performance issue, most everything has a non-converting variant which gives back a CFFI pointer instead and you can convert just the part you need (or operate on the cpython-native type) rather than everything in the structure. Though of course that's somewhat less natural feeling, and you get to deal with reference counts 23:11:17 -!- oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:12:20 \o/ reference counts 23:12:28 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:12:45 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:13:12 antifuchs: I've always used defparameter with ++ but I don't know where I picked that up 23:13:32 yeah, that makes sense 23:14:15 I guess it's ideal to just use http://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/draft/alexandria.html#Data-and-Control-Flow and ++muff (: 23:14:56 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@94.144.63.8] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:15:27 benny [~benny@i577A3368.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:16:09 -!- elliottcable [~me@ell.io] has quit [K-Lined] 23:18:33 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:19:30 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:19:45 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 23:24:18 *Xach* stumbles across https://github.com/CMPITG/cl-rp-lisp when investigating missing repos 23:26:51 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 23:27:06 Xach: it's some pieces of arc implemented in lisp? 23:27:37 -!- lanthan [~ze@pD9FEB93B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:27:46 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 23:28:00 DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@184.99.15.205] has joined #lisp 23:30:41 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 23:30:41 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:34:25 -!- acelent [~user@sigma02.ist.utl.pt] has left #lisp 23:35:12 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:35:26 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.173.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:36:27 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-106-67.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:31 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:36:47 Hi! I have a question about performance / compiling in Lisp: I just tried calculating samples for an 1 Hz oscillator at 44100 Hz sample rate (in other words the complex 44100th roots of unity) using both Matlisp and map with arrays in Lisp and compared to results from Numpy -- in Lisp I got times around 30-40 ms for taking one value (in order to not use much time for printing the results) and in Numpy I got results around 3.3 ms. I on 23:36:47 ly C-C C-C compiled the functions in Lisp -- are they still interpreted in this way? 23:37:17 mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 23:37:32 On the other hand, I can get the samples in Numpy in around 72 microseconds using a slightly different method... 23:37:32 ... It depends on the lisp. 23:37:37 Using SBCL 23:37:41 Or it depends on what you mean by "interpreted". 23:37:52 IIRC, SBCL compiles all functions by default. 23:38:25 So, maybe using type declarations and optimization directives would help? 23:38:33 If you have SBCL recent enough that :SB-EVAL is on *FEATURES*, then have a look for *EVALUATOR-MODE*, but I doubt it'd be set to :INTERPRET. 23:38:41 And otherwise optimizing the functions 23:38:47 Yes, optimization usually helps. 23:39:14 Boxing and unboxing is painfully expensive. 23:39:33 What is boxing? 23:40:06 Adding type information (tags) to a data value so that it can be stored on the heap or passed to another function. 23:40:07 I guess now, most of the time went into copying and making new arrays 23:40:17 Ok 23:40:43 You're trying to initialize one array with a sine-wave? 23:41:11 Kind of, except I want the complex samples 23:41:16 So it's a circle 23:42:19 kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 23:42:35 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:42:37 Why? 23:43:07 Thinking about what's actually involved in initializing such an array. 23:43:35 lanthan [~ze@pD9FEB0BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:40 So, you allocate your array, and then loop over the indices setting each value? 23:46:32 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-44-78.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:34 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 23:47:39 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 23:48:05 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-25-197.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:49:08 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-218-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:49:56 Using a specialized array type, and suitably declared angular frequency measure, should do most of the trick. 23:50:00 ... I think. 23:50:16 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:50:50 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 23:51:20 Yeah, that's actually quite close to how the Numpy works. 23:51:49 peterhil: Are you using matrix-ref to set the elements of the array? 23:51:56 I did it quite dumbly with many maps, and not with setf aref. That's probably the reason 23:52:19 pinterface: When burgled-batteries doesn't know how to translate a return value I get a pointer (which is fine). Is there any way to call methods of this thing pointed to, or to call, for example, "dir"? 23:52:50 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 23:55:18 rtoyg: No, I didn't. It seems I should've used matrix-ref... 23:55:26 Or aref for arrays 23:56:03 peterhil: If you want to be fast, don't use matrix-ref. Use the matrix-map (or whatever that's called). 23:56:06 Neronus: Most of the C API functions are available in the python.cffi package (e.g., PyObject_Dir is python.cffi:object.dir). 23:57:21 rtoyg: I did (mexp (m* (* 2 pi #C(0 1)) (m/ (vec 0 1 44100) 44100))) 23:57:34 pinterface: Great, thank you 23:58:06 It took 0.027 seconds of real time, 76,936,902 processor cycles and 14,107,504 bytes consed 23:59:38 peterhil: That ought to be pretty fast, but a bit consy. But I don't have a copy of matlisp here right now to look at the code.