00:00:19 akovalenko: how so? 00:00:36 -lGL works fine for C programs 00:00:47 Ralith: "libGL.so.1" should be set up via alternatives to point to a specific system library 00:01:20 akovalenko: why .1? And set up how? 00:01:25 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:01:33 My system doesn't *have* a /usr/lib/libGL.so* 00:01:35 -lGL is for binutils' ld. It looks up libGL.so, _then reads its soname and records it to elf_, and that soname for libGL is libGL.so.1' 00:02:11 Ralith: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libGL.so.1, perhaps? 00:02:56 akovalenko: that, without the .1, is linked to the Mesa libGL. 00:03:17 Ralith: does fglrxinfo return correctly? 00:03:25 Ralith: that's a reason, among many, not to use non-versioned "ld names" in CFFI 00:03:37 akovalenko: I still don't understand. 00:03:39 tsuru`: yes. 00:03:55 timack [~timack@hlfx59-2a-231.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 00:03:56 :0.0, ATI, radeon, 4.1.11005 00:04:03 Ralith: ldd `which glxgears` probably depends on the libGL.so.1 which you should load 00:04:32 akovalenko: yes, it does, as does the C program I linked with -lGL 00:04:45 why does ld find the correct library while SBCL/CFFI does not? 00:05:02 sorry, I have no idea where to find a good introduction to ELF/binutils/soname thing. It seems surprisingly hard.. 00:05:24 I thought SBCL used the same infrastructure via dlopen? 00:06:14 Once more. LD looks up libGL.so, but it doesn't make your binary depend on libGL.so. Instead, it reads a _soname_ from libGL.so which it finds (that's why unversioned .so symlink is in -dev packages), and writes that soname (which is versioned) into newly-created binary. 00:06:39 what does that have to do with anything? 00:06:41 so, after linking with -lGL, ldd ./your-program shows dependency on libGL.so.1 00:06:46 yes 00:06:59 if I tell CFFI to use libGL.so.1, it will find the right one? 00:07:07 despite the fact that there is no difference in the locations at all? 00:07:20 ls -l and see there _is_ a difference in targets 00:07:29 no, there's not. 00:07:54 Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has joined #lisp 00:07:59 is your locate db working? locate libGL.so.1 00:08:08 /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libGL.so points to mesa, and there is no other libGL in that dir 00:08:15 that was the first thing I did. 00:08:29 I assumed that glx alternatives are common to current debian and ubuntu, but, apparently, they diverged somewhere.. 00:08:32 there's the mesa one, the fglrx one, the 32-bit fglrx one, and some matlab thing 00:08:52 which is in /opt/ and is probably irrelevant 00:08:54 Hmmm. There's a comment in Hunchentoot about some bad client (e.g. ASDF-INSTALL) sending some kind of messed up request. I wonder if there are any other clients that one would actually care about that do that. 00:09:07 ldd `which glxgears` ;; what does it load? and does it use direct rendering? 00:09:19 the same one as my C program: the 64-bit fglrx lib 00:10:05 well, then CFFI _can_ do fine with libGL.so.1, even without explicit directory. 00:10:08 it runs at 500-600 FPS, which seems slow for a HD5850 00:10:37 in fact, the cl-opengl gears example runs at about twice that 00:11:11 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 00:11:26 Apparently, fglrx's libGL.so.1 is earlier on search path for LD interpreter, so if CFFI or underlying FFI doesn't try to second-guess library path, "libGL.so.1" would do fine. 00:11:45 *for ELF interpreter 00:12:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:12:45 one more thing: after you load "libGL.so.1", take a look at /proc//maps for lisp process to see which libGL.so.1 were really loadede. 00:12:48 *loaded. 00:12:54 akovalenko: okay, switching to that worked; I guess ubuntu implements alternatives by modifying ld's search path now. 00:13:01 oooh, handy 00:13:25 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-156-49.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:13:55 superflit [~superflit@71-33-156-49.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:07 three references to the correct lib after I changed the cffi info for glop and cl-opengl both 00:14:10 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 00:14:20 Ralith: whenever you see people loading something unversioned in CFFI, please explain the things above to them, or invite them to #lisp :) 00:14:33 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:39 will try! 00:14:44 Patzy, |3b|: see above 00:15:20 the real problem is that it seems to work most of the time (on systems that have -dev/-devel packages installed), so there's not enough clues that it's wrong.. 00:15:43 why is it implemented this way? 00:16:38 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.48.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:17:09 The goal (well, kind of) is to have a single "development" package for only one minor version per major version installed in each moment, while allowing the binaries built against other versions to work with _their_ favourite libraries. 00:17:39 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:17:39 akovalenko: the problem is that it's not possible to know which file to load 00:18:06 different linux or berkeley distributions give different sonames to the same library 00:18:29 how does (:or "libGL.so.1" "libGL.so.1.2" "libGL.so") look for a safer foreign library designator? 00:18:37 fe[nl]ix: no, that's not a problem. There is no such thing as "libGL.so API", only "libGL.so.1" api 00:19:03 libGL.so.1 is normally there (and correct) whenever libGL.so.1.N is there. 00:19:09 I don't care about this specific case 00:19:24 you made a general statement before 00:19:38 -!- codesinverse [~Jaybles@205.185.117.18] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 00:19:55 fe[nl]ix: initially, libZZ.so can be a good _fallback_, but it should be fixed on each platform. 00:20:10 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 00:20:11 and what is a platform ? 00:21:04 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.207] has joined #lisp 00:21:09 I've seen libraries with different sonames on debian, redhat, suse 00:21:19 and the BSDs do their own versioning 00:21:46 fe[nl]ix: that's _different libraries_, i.e. their interface is different enough to adjust a major version. 00:21:58 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:21:58 nope, not different libraries 00:22:01 I guess I should favor loading the newer version of the lib first? 00:22:03 same source version 00:22:11 -!- xshoppyx [~xshoppyx@24-180-7-158.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:22:29 when a subset used in CFFI bindings is small enough that you don't see the difference, you just list all possibilities (newest first, yes) 00:22:37 xshoppyx [~xshoppyx@24-180-7-158.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:22:56 but I don't know all possibilities 00:23:09 the subset in this case consists of a very few basic functions which I'm pretty sure are required to be exported, so that sounds good 00:23:27 well, fix-as-you-go when it fails (or fix-as-you-go when it falls back to libZZ.so). 00:23:55 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 00:24:00 -!- lonstein_ is now known as lonstein 00:24:09 you can be pretty sure "for major versions up to 10", maybe "for future 3 years' major releases", but not _forever_, probably. 00:24:23 okay, now why am I getting a divide-by-zero when calling GL functions :/ 00:24:33 which turns into a segfault on the second try, no less 00:24:56 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has joined #lisp 00:25:18 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:25:48 seems like you have to debug it :-/ shared library loading is unlikely to be too relevant here, but incorrect cffi bindings may be the cause.. 00:26:12 plausible 00:26:19 ..especially if it was developed on 32-bit system, and you use 64-bit one 00:26:20 wish SBCL gave better backtraces 00:26:22 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 00:28:37 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.167.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:29:31 DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@184.99.15.205] has joined #lisp 00:30:10 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.212.207] has joined #lisp 00:30:41 MjrTom: What's a Level III? (re: dead end security jobs) 00:30:50 Ralith: it has solid backtraces if you don't -fomit-frame-pointer. 00:31:19 i.e. if I compile it myself 00:31:41 so, guess I should say "wish distro maintainers didn't bungle sbcl builds" 00:31:45 fwiw, linux kernel devs agree with that philosophy of debugging (: 00:31:53 ? 00:31:55 snearch [~snearch@g231108222.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:32:30 Ralith: the build script has -fno-omit-frame-pointer by default now. And linux's tools (e.g. perf) don't do backtraces without FP. 00:32:56 why does it have that by default? 00:32:59 -!- timack [~timack@hlfx59-2a-231.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:33:14 Ralith: 4.6 omits frame pointers by default. 00:33:17 to get good backtraces for SBCL runtime, at least 00:33:17 00:33:18 oh 00:33:40 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:33:48 I installed the cl-gtk2 suite, and I noticed it's dreadfully slow the first time in a session it opens up windows. Does anyone know of a way to speed this up? 00:34:19 there's usually a debug builds for normal libraries available (-dbg packages on debianoids), but we might be out of luck with fglrx's libGL.so.1.. 00:34:38 I wasn't planning on debugging into the driver itself 00:34:49 akovalenko: they might just include table-based debugging info. 00:35:31 Zulu_Inuoe: i haven't noticed that, what lisp? 00:36:16 oGMo: I am on SBCL on windows. 00:36:18 Zulu_Inuoe: it takes forever to load, at least in sbcl, but once it is it should generally run quickly 00:36:53 ahah 00:37:03 bad cffi decl indeed, looks like 00:37:04 Zulu_Inuoe: which version? also, 00:37:27 Zulu_Inuoe: i'm not familiar with windows sbcl, but i can dump a core with cl-gtk2 loaded in linux and it seems to work fine 00:37:28 oGMo: Yes after each window has been created at least once it'll run smoothly, but the first time any window or menu is selected it has a hiccup 00:37:31 instant load 00:38:05 Zulu_Inuoe: that sounds like other issues ;/ 00:38:23 -!- arborist [~arborist@e182027172.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:38:28 ffffff 00:38:29 still explodes 00:38:49 akovalenko: It's version 1.0.48, off of the sbcl.org as opposed to the windows fork because I don't know any better 00:38:54 oGMo: cl-gtk2 (or underlying gobject stuff, more likely) has an annoying finalizer-related bug (finalizers without :dont-save). It may be bad for dumping, and on Windows this bug has more chances to bite you 00:39:07 oGMo: I had the same issue when I tried it out on my Ubuntu machine 00:40:11 akovalenko: yeah while i've never had an issue myself (more thread deadlocking), i've always figured it was iffy 00:40:50 Zulu_Inuoe: odd 00:40:52 Zulu_Inuoe: even mainline SBCL provides 1.0.52 for windows now. Is there any specific reason to stick to 1.0.48? 00:41:08 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.234] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:41:45 oGMo: With the gtk-examples:test-dialog, the initial window takes a while to boot up, and there's hiccups the first time I click on the 'About' button and anything in that. Though once each has been clicked on at least once it runs perfectly without hiccups. 00:41:56 akovalenko: Laziness 00:41:57 Zulu_Inuoe: well, I recommend to just live with it being slow while you're developing. Probably someone will fix this stuff (/me would hate to do it myself, but looks like I have to...) 00:42:18 laziness is fairly compatible with slow libraries :) 00:42:49 akovalenko: Haha, indeed. I think I'll go ahead and pick-up 1.0.52 right now before I forget 00:43:06 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:43:18 brandelune [~suzume@pl316.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:44:15 nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.191.2] has joined #lisp 00:45:46 jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:06 Xach: you around? 00:48:34 ehine1 [~ericyoda@rrcs-72-43-70-106.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:50:08 Zulu_Inuoe: i'd worry more if your own code has that problem .. i think the demo code builds a lot of data, but the windows probably don't get destroyed so they're easy to unhide 00:51:33 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.20.250.242] has quit [Quit: marsell] 00:52:15 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.191.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:53:00 -!- jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:54:37 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-45-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:55:04 oGMo: I experience the same behavior in my own code (both on Ubuntu and Windows). I haven't tried a core dump -after- creating the windows and all though 00:57:38 -!- brandelune [~suzume@pl316.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune] 00:59:49 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS302.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:00:24 jmckitrick, c'mon! 01:01:54 todun [~todun@SEAS302.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 01:02:21 -!- MjrTom [~mjrtom@azureus/MjrTom] has quit [Quit: Planet Earth is blue and there's nothing I can do] 01:03:54 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:58 xshoppyx_ [~xshoppyx@24-180-7-158.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:04:46 -!- syrinx_ is now known as mrderp 01:05:35 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:07:12 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:07:13 -!- xshoppyx [~xshoppyx@24-180-7-158.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:07:14 -!- xshoppyx_ is now known as xshoppyx 01:12:10 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:13:13 nanoc [~conanhome@186.12.108.246] has joined #lisp 01:14:55 -!- udzinari` [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:16:11 MjrTom [MjrTom@azureus/MjrTom] has joined #lisp 01:16:52 mjs2600 [~user@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:16:58 -!- mrderp is now known as syrinx_ 01:20:07 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:20:45 Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has joined #lisp 01:29:07 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:30:00 -!- xshoppyx [~xshoppyx@24-180-7-158.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:31:16 tmh [4b25e09f@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 01:31:27 Happy Halloween lispers! 01:33:24 xshoppyx [~xshoppyx@24-180-7-158.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:36:15 SBCL LLVM IR backend, Good, Bad, Fundamentally Flawed? Discuss. I have to put the kids to bed, be back in a bit to see if anyone is here. Thanks. 01:36:32 -!- snearch [~snearch@g231108222.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 01:37:04 tmh: doable, lot of work, but we'd have to either go against the LLVM grain a bit or rewrite the runtime. 01:37:20 probably a good idea in the abstract. 01:42:04 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:42:29 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:53 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS302.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: :s] 01:48:48 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-125-209.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:49:08 pkhuong: Thanks, that's what I suspected. Read some second hand info on a Haskell frontend. Ended up getting completed as part so some guys graduate work, required some limited modifications to LLVM. 01:50:43 oh yeah. calling convention. That would be hell to get right. 01:55:27 -!- kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-0-219-220.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:55:52 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:56:52 also, it looks more like msc than phd work from here... That cuts your candidate pool a bit ;) 01:57:54 -!- drdo [~drdo@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:58:09 drdo [~drdo@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 02:02:12 -!- ehine1 [~ericyoda@rrcs-72-43-70-106.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:02:52 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-102-57.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 02:03:07 mdh [~user@cpe-98-155-87-40.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:04:34 xshoppyx_ [~xshoppyx@32.152.238.119] has joined #lisp 02:05:06 -!- mtd [~martin@chop.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:06:02 -!- xshoppyx [~xshoppyx@24-180-7-158.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:07:33 -!- lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:08:48 -!- xshoppyx_ [~xshoppyx@32.152.238.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:10:56 is there a clisp repl for emacs? 02:13:16 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.207] has left #lisp 02:20:53 Ober: SLIME supports clisp and includes slime-repl module. Or do you have some specific "native" clisp REPL features in mind? Using clisp directly in inferior-lisp mode is another option. 02:21:03 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:22:10 coderdad [~coderdad@ip72-200-211-242.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:35 todun [~todun@SEAS302.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 02:26:48 pkhuong: yeah, I think it was masters level work. Looks like the only real win for SBCL on LLVM at the moment would be on Mac OS X. Probably not worth the effort at the moment. Definitely something to watch, though. 02:27:56 LLVM development, that is. If LLVM became the defacto target across many platforms/OS's, that would be the the time to consider it. 02:28:08 cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.210.120] has joined #lisp 02:28:35 MIT still has classes on Lisp, right? Or classes one might take after learning Lisp? 02:29:04 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-194-68.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:29:12 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-81.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:29:25 Schlumberon: Check the MIT open courseware site. If there is anything, you can do it self-study. 02:29:37 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-81.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:29:42 *Schlumberon* is looking, there's a lot of stuff there. 02:29:59 I'm going to (probably) be able to take a single class at MIT during college. 02:30:24 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B11A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:30:38 ska` [~user@203.146.146.169] has joined #lisp 02:31:33 OH MY GOD AERONAUTICS *om nom nom nom* 02:31:38 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-194-68.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:31:46 I will learn them all! 02:32:16 Schlumberon: study sicp. 02:32:31 Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs 02:32:31 http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html 02:32:31 http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 02:32:46 I've got a copy, but I was under the impression that the SICP class (6.00 or something) wasn't offered any more? 02:33:15 sicp is still the best to blow your mind. 02:33:31 Also I'm having a religious experience at the moment, going over the aeronautics courses. *sheds a tear* give me a moment, please 02:33:46 Sure. Put it in the queue. 02:34:31 but okay, I'll dig up my old copy of SICP :) I can probably find some assignments to chew on, too. OCW definitely has that class in there. 02:34:52 Schlumberon: I'm confused, why are you only taking a single course and why not pick the course based on some charismatic professor? If I only took one course, I'd pick it based on the professor, not the subject. 02:35:28 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B47E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:56 Harvard students can enroll concurrently at MIT. Because of my particular circumstances, I will almost certainly only be able to take a single MIT class during my time at Harvard. 02:36:05 And that's a good idea, actually. 02:37:44 xshoppyx [~xshoppyx@24-180-7-158.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:38:30 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.210.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:38:35 If you can choose the year, do it in your final year, something to fill out the spring and enjoy. 02:38:43 cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.183.94] has joined #lisp 02:39:01 yeah, senior year for sure 02:41:16 What's the canonical feature keyword? 02:42:40 Ralith : :common-lisp ? Not really sure what you mean. 02:42:59 er 02:43:00 wow 02:43:09 how did I manage to leave out the critical word 02:43:19 I meant to ask: What's the canonical OSX feature keyword? 02:44:10 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-156-49.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:44:45 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.183.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:45:09 Ralith: Ah, that makes more sense, no clue. 02:45:48 Ralith: if you depend on cffi, there are some cffi-features (and some features from trivial-features) that are more reliable than traditional implemention-dependent ones.. 02:46:20 I do. 02:46:51 well, I have #+CFFI-FEATURES:WINDOWS T here. There's definitely something similar for osx.. 02:47:03 -!- Schlumberon [a3bc2774@gateway/web/freenode/ip.163.188.39.116] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:47:34 looks like cffi-features:darwin 02:49:08 yep (they're all exported anyway, even those not pushed into *features*) 02:49:38 cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.183.94] has joined #lisp 02:49:45 <|3b|> akovalenko: are you saying that a link from say /usr/lib/libGL.so to /usr/lib/libGL.so.1 means code compiled with -lGL should load any random libGL.so.1 it finds on the system, even if it isn't /usr/lib/libGL.so.1 ? 02:50:18 |3b|: yes (and that's actually what happens with libGL + proprietary drivers) 02:51:58 dyba [~dyba@adsl-99-48-211-209.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:33 |3b|: additionally, an elf executable can have DT_RPATH to tell dynamic loader where to find its dependencies, but it's typically not present (-Wl,-rpath has to be specified explicitly) 02:53:01 <|3b|> so rather than just linking /usr/lib/libGL.so.1 to whatever driver you actually want, you need to guess at some magic linker path order, and make sure the one you want is first? 02:55:04 first, unversioned libGL.so is usually the one from Mesa: that's what is seen by LD when we build a program. libGL.so.1 that is "near" can be always from Mesa (with proprietary stuff installed into some other directory which is searched earlier by ld-linux.so), or it can be a symlink to proprietary driver indeed. 02:56:32 When writing in C, the right way to load working libGL dynamically is dlopen("libGL.so.1", RTLD_..), without any explicit directry name. 02:57:10 I'd expect any sensible FFI to support this option under unix. 02:59:34 mtd [~martin@chop.xades.com] has joined #lisp 03:01:31 Ralith: there's no standard for features. cliki.net has a table of features by implementation. 03:02:30 Ralith: OSX is a unix so you'd get :unix. 03:04:28 oh :/ 03:04:29 -!- djanatyn is now known as djanatyn|afk 03:05:10 -!- mtd [~martin@chop.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:08:05 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:10:05 well, there is some correlation between a desire to know OS type and usage of FFI, so having cffi-features:something have a great chance to be good enough.. 03:10:29 if trivial-features pushes :linux, which I expect it will, I should be good 03:10:31 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 03:12:56 and without FFI, e.g. if we just want to run external programs, it can be appropriate to test some specific things in runtime instead. E.g. if a system has (probe-file #P"/bin/sh"), usually it's "unix-like enough" even if there's no :unix. 03:16:30 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:16:36 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:16:37 Is there a way to specify an array type whose dimensions satisfy a > constraint? 03:18:56 (SATISFIES my-check-array), or better (AND (ARRAY ...) (SATISFIES my-check-array)) 03:20:09 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:20:15 with (defun my-check-array (array) (let ((dimensions (array-dimensions array))) (every #'> dimensions (rest dimensions)))) ;; not tested 03:20:41 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 03:20:43 cleverfragment [~user@130.85.224.179] has joined #lisp 03:20:48 nothing native, then? ah well. 03:21:15 Guest85572 [~martin@67.207.131.107] has joined #lisp 03:21:34 <|3b|> Ralith: does webgl work on firefox on the machine with strange libgl links? 03:22:11 let's find out! 03:22:48 ooo, pretty 03:22:51 |3b|: yep! 03:23:04 talking to yourself? 03:23:11 <|3b|> some ff dev was asking about whether it should use .so or .so.1 on ##opengl a few weeks ago, and they said to just use .so :/ 03:23:34 sure they weren't asking about link-time? 03:23:53 to link against, or to load dynamically? For the former, .so is perfect. 03:24:13 <|3b|> "is it OK to just always dlopen libGL.so" ... "it's fine to do that" 03:24:23 ooh 03:24:31 <|3b|> and linked to www.xfree86.org/4.8.0/DRI11.html which also seems to think it is reasonable 03:24:43 <|3b|> and apparently lots of GL games did so as well 03:25:00 *Ralith* shrug 03:25:07 everything Just Works on this machine except cl-opengl 03:25:12 <|3b|> but also seems to be lots of bug reports for various projects saying dlopen libGL.so doesn't work so use .so.1 03:25:18 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:25:23 <|3b|> is it sbcl? 03:25:33 libgl1-mesa-dev: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libGL.so 03:26:15 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 03:26:15 I'm running SBCL, yes 03:26:38 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-110-173.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:48 so anyone who dlopen's libGL.so relies on *-dev package being present (and dev packages depend on a bunch of utilities, tools and headers that are useless when you're not compiling anything).. 03:27:19 I think the -dev package *is* present 03:27:25 "You may dlopen libGL.so" === "Any linux gamer uses gcc and compiles things anyway" :) 03:27:25 I mean, I certainly have GL/gl.h 03:27:51 Ralith: it's present, but it's not fglrx. 03:27:57 * most likely 03:29:00 Ralith: the point of it is to isolate build environment in such a way that your video card and your favourite driver doesn't affect packages you build in any way. 03:29:03 <|3b|> in that firefox, at the bottom of about:support does it look like it is finding the gfx card drivers? 03:29:05 -!- xshoppyx [~xshoppyx@24-180-7-158.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:29:14 xshoppyx [~xshoppyx@24-180-7-158.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:29:17 I don't think an fglrx dev package exists. 03:29:27 but yes, that makes sense 03:29:39 |3b|: yep 03:33:25 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:33:51 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:35:30 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.107.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:35:33 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 03:36:28 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #lisp 03:37:12 *|3b|* gives up and just ignores the issue 03:37:48 misosoup [~misosoup@KD210249050163.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:39:05 -!- misosoup [~misosoup@KD210249050163.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:40:20 pull requests are up, btw 03:40:41 schme [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:40:41 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 03:40:41 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 03:41:25 *Ralith* leaves the broken glop bindings for later 03:42:11 <|3b|> do you have systems with .so.3 or .so.4? 03:42:55 Various BSDs appear to have those 03:42:55 libGL? Do we have systems with .so.2, even? 03:43:20 apparently! 03:43:34 *|3b|* vaguely remember seeing .so.2 at some point, and that was already there so don't object to it as much 03:44:08 well, full target pathname of my nvidia stuff ends with libGL.so.290.03, but it's a.k.a. libGL.1.so nevertheless.. 03:44:35 in my googling about the problem I ran into the others, and support costs nothing, so I figured why not 03:45:10 btw, |3b|, that xfree86.org page you link looks positively ancient 03:45:25 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:45:25 <|3b|> yeah, probably 03:45:39 well, if you think the API will be stable /forever/, just generate *.so.1 - *.so.42 programmatically, and sleep well for some years.. 03:45:47 <|3b|> well, costs nothing unless the other option would have worked :p 03:46:11 I ran into them in the context of an analogous bug to this being reported 03:46:40 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.106.123] has joined #lisp 03:46:47 akovalenko: considering that large parts of GL have been deprecated (the statically exported parts, in fact), I wouldn't like to bet on that. 03:46:56 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:47:02 btw, similar issue with libncurses (and its CL binding) was discussed here a day or two ago.. 03:47:53 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 03:48:02 ..and it was even worse: on Linux, libncurses.so is not dlopen-able at all :) 03:48:09 hah 03:51:22 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:52:22 -!- cleverfragment [~user@130.85.224.179] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:52:41 ..if we depend on libtool's wrapper and load libltdl.so.7 first, we get something more clever and (maybe) portable... but it's not easy to use libltdl for FFI in most lisps, and even impossible in some.. 03:52:45 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.172.81] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 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04:49:58 What are some interesting systems on Quicklisp to play with? 04:51:47 Amyn1 [~abennama@m328eth.crans.org] has joined #lisp 04:52:22 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:52:23 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@YYDCCLXIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:54:15 Quadrescence: 1. zpb-ttf, zpng, skippy, vecto -- draw wonderful antialiased stuff with vector graphics and TTF fonts, export it to pngs, import gifs.. 04:54:33 -!- Amyn [~abennama@m328eth.crans.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:54:49 akovalenko, those are good choices and have played with them a good amount. :) 04:56:03 2. hunchentoot, weblocks, simple-blog (and intermediate dependencies of the latter) -- web server and some complex stuff on top of it 04:56:56 3. telnetlib -- useful if you have a very dumb router or dsl modem. You can build a lisp system to control it and make it do funny things automatically 04:58:48 4. sqlite, postmodern, plain-odbc, cl-mysql -- database interfaces (postmodern is native, socket-based). Try them /before/ cl-sql stuff if you want a database interface.. 05:02:05 xwolf- [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 05:03:12 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5091E65F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:04:48 hello, did anyone get closure-xml's klacks parser to work with html? I like it's interface much more than dom or stp, both which ship with closure-xml and work fine with html 05:04:54 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d1a3c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:05:08 here's the code that fails: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125582 05:06:44 perhaps this is the problem: (cxml:make-source (chtml:parse html (chtml:make-string-sink). examples on closure-html page that works with stp did this: (chtml:parse html (cxml-stp:make-builder)) 05:08:07 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:09:28 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:09:53 -!- xjrn [~chatzilla@c-76-21-48-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:10:53 xwolf-: why not (cxml:make-string-sink) with (cxml:make-source) ? 05:12:50 you mean (cxml:make-string-sin (cxml:make-source html-string)) ? 05:12:55 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS302.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: :s] 05:14:06 smartviking [~smartviki@unaffiliated/smartviking] has joined #lisp 05:14:37 Are there any graphical "tree" implementations for lisp? 05:14:41 xwolf-: I mean, use cxml:make-string-sink instead of chtml:make-string-sink 05:15:01 That would be a very different way at looking at your software 05:15:41 So you could drag lines from a dot to operators, operands and so on 05:15:59 and that dot, is what the expression finially evaluates to 05:16:28 and that dot could be an operand to some other expression 05:16:54 It would be very cool to program like that, and see how your program looks graphically like that 05:17:43 akovalenko awesome, that worked! can't believe I didn't try that 05:17:54 jack_rabbit [~jackrabbi@c-67-175-254-108.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:58 smartviking: openmusic, maybe? I haven't used it, and it's domain-oriented, obviously 05:18:05 thanks again 05:18:42 I have a question: Can function definitions destructure parameters? 05:18:57 Or only macro definitions? 05:19:40 Bike: Yeah, something like that 05:20:42 I imagine it a little less graphical, like the lines from the dots are all it is, it should look like lisp 05:21:00 jack_rabbit destructure parameters? 05:21:35 (defun some-function ((a b c) &rest theRest) ...) 05:21:42 smartviking: puredata I have used, and it's basically all text connected by lines. Though it's not Lispy at all. 05:21:43 jack_rabbit: no, /ordinary/ lambda lists can't do it 05:21:57 Where the first argument is a list containing 3 elements? 05:22:08 jack_rabbit: there is destructuring-bind, so it's easy to accept a &rest parameter and descruture it immediately. 05:22:42 Thanks. 05:22:45 (defun foo (&rest args) (destructuring-bind ((a b c) &rest rest) args ....)) 05:23:06 That's handy. 05:23:31 Out of curiosity, is there a reason functions don't support automatic destructuring like macros do?> 05:25:30 Bike: Man it would be awesome to make my own idea with like, SDL or something. I wish I were a better programmer :P 05:25:54 smartviking: well, there's an obvious way to make that happen! 05:26:55 jack_rabbit: I have no idea (well, maybe some unsubstantiated guess like "they didn't want people to write inefficient functions with complex arguments", but that's not too convincing...) 05:27:15 I could make it with pygame, and translate the graphical lines and dots and text into lisp code 05:27:16 s/complex/complicated/.. 05:27:48 I guess it does complicate things. At the same time, it's a larger body to call the destructuring-bind, or disassemble the list by hand. 05:30:15 you can make a defun-like macro that checks for non-ordinary lambda lists and wraps body into destructuring-bind when ordinary lambda list is not enough. Obviously, compiler could do even better.. 05:31:25 That's true. I keep forgetting I can define my own syntax! 05:32:34 cyrillos [~cyrill@ppp78-37-246-60.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 05:34:47 lanthan [~ze@pD9555B0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-84-51-137.customers.almanet.kz] has joined #lisp 05:35:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-84-51-137.customers.almanet.kz] has quit [Changing host] 05:35:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:35:47 -!- lanthan [~ze@pD9555B0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:37:42 msxx [~msxx@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 05:38:29 lanthan [~ze@pD9555B0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:48 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.12.108.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:39:14 hello, did anyone get commonqt working reliably under windows? what CL did you use? the process of getting it to work seems pretty involving, so if it doesn't work well I won't even try it 05:41:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:43:05 superflit [~superflit@71-33-156-49.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:07 -!- troydm [~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:44:41 msxx: is there any C compilation involved? If you do that part and share its results, I could look at Lisp-level problems (if any) on my threaded SBCL/Windows. 05:44:41 05:45:44 akovalenko it seems that there is. it requires visual C++, which I'll have to install first. 05:45:51 http://common-lisp.net/project/commonqt/ 05:47:01 msxx: well, that's why I'm not so enthusiastic about it. Feel free to inform me if/when you run into a problem with SBCL, though. 05:47:50 ok I will 05:48:21 I guess sbcl I use has to be compiled with Visual C++ too? 05:48:34 I didn't even read commonqt page, btw, I just concluded logically that there _has_ to be intermediate C layer.. 05:48:53 no, C calling conventions are the same, so mingw-built SBCL will be ok 05:49:30 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-45-19.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:36 -!- xshoppyx [~xshoppyx@24-180-7-158.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:49:41 slyrus: herep 05:49:49 msxx: and it's probably easier to port SBCL to a brand new OS/CPU combination than to get rid of gccisms there :) 05:50:32 :) 05:51:05 ..so I expect msvc to die out _before_ it could compile SBCL 05:51:46 I'm curious, how much of SBCL source code C and how much lisp? 05:51:52 is C 05:52:10 There are much more Lisp 05:53:02 didn't count source code lines, but it certainly /feels/ this way. And if we speak of cognitive load, the amount of C is negligible.. 05:57:04 msxx: but it's harder to refactor C code, just because it's so C. during my SBCL/windows activity, C part acquired some ugly kludges and became slightly more complicated, while most Lisp parts that were seriously affected were simplified.. 05:58:13 ..and I'm a total lisp newbie if we compare my CL vs. C experience. 06:00:53 heh, debian/sid lisp packages are catching up. Looks like it will be possible to use them when you're on unstable... 06:00:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-84-51-137.customers.almanet.kz] has joined #lisp 06:00:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-84-51-137.customers.almanet.kz] has quit [Changing host] 06:00:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:01:37 was adding threads to SBCL mostly done at C level or lisp? 06:02:07 both. 06:03:30 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@ip72-200-211-242.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:04:24 getting them right (fixing bugs) took more C time, however (after 6 months something were still conceptually wrong on C level!) 06:04:24 06:12:20 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 06:13:57 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:17:45 mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has joined #lisp 06:19:38 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-001-149.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:48 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:21:39 -!- ska` [~user@203.146.146.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:21:46 ska` [~user@203.146.146.169] has joined #lisp 06:26:25 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-44-148.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:26:52 Xach: have you seen a zpb-ttf-based snippet that redefines PDF:READ-TTF-METRICS, so I can load TTF fonts directly without any font metric files? (or maybe you wrote it? I can't recall where I found it) 06:27:11 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-44-148.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 06:30:13 -!- Zulu_Inuoe [~zulu12@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:31:14 -!- ska` [~user@203.146.146.169] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:31:25 ska` [~user@203.146.146.169] has joined #lisp 06:34:09 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-235.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:38:02 xjrn [~chatzilla@c-76-21-48-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:41 -!- ska` [~user@203.146.146.169] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:38:59 ska` [~user@203.146.146.169] has joined #lisp 06:42:12 -!- xjrn [~chatzilla@c-76-21-48-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:42:46 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@ppp78-37-246-60.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 06:46:34 -!- xwolf- [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (EOF)] 06:47:03 -!- msxx [~msxx@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:47:57 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-235.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:49:32 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 06:50:43 -!- ska` [~user@203.146.146.169] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:50:48 ska` [~user@203.146.146.169] has joined #lisp 06:54:07 -!- markskilbeck [~Mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:56:59 markskilbeck [~Mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 07:01:41 My (directory ...) returns P#"/home/user/whatever" which I cannot in turn plug into another (directory ...) call. 07:01:46 What can I do about this? 07:03:49 easyE [QCIoV1eK7M@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 07:04:23 I'm using it in a (make-pathname ...) function, rather, which is fed to a (directory ...) function. 07:05:05 -!- ska` [~user@203.146.146.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:05:44 directory is supposed to return a list of pathnames 07:05:51 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:06:24 which are the P#"/whatever/" i'm seeing, then. 07:06:29 right 07:06:51 So how do I check if the parameter passed into my function is a string or already a pathname? 07:08:15 pathnamep? 07:08:53 Awesome, thanks. I've been searching on google, but I'm still really new to the language. 07:09:33 jack_rabbit: there's http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/19_.htm, hopefully that helps? 07:10:02 I'll bookmark that. Thanks a ton. 07:12:31 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-28-68.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:12:46 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:13:28 -!- MasseR [~masse@dyn68-323.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:14:55 MasseR [~masse@dyn68-323.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 07:22:21 nostoi [~nostoi@218.Red-83-50-2.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:23 mishoo_ [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 07:29:44 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-110-173.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: That said, I should have slept an hour ago!] 07:32:02 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:37:49 -!- DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@184.99.15.205] has quit [Quit: DaDaDosPrompt] 07:53:04 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-49.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:58:21 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:02:16 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d869fc7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:58 MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-25-69.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:29 cmm [~cmm@109.67.212.191] has joined #lisp 08:08:37 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:08:37 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@218.Red-83-50-2.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:09:37 todun [~todun@seasnet-58-02.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 08:11:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:11:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:12:07 H4ns [5b3d4df9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.77.249] has joined #lisp 08:12:12 akovalenko: aroundp? 08:18:42 -!- msponge [~msponge@18.189.103.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:20:02 I think either p or ? is enough :) 08:20:43 Neronus: you are right. sorry!!eins 08:21:45 -!- H4ns [5b3d4df9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.77.249] has quit [Quit: later] 08:22:01 *akovalenko* is too late.. 08:22:07 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:23:48 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-qghzmntbjdbqqygw] has joined #lisp 08:26:41 gavinharper [~gavinharp@dyn3-82-128-184-20.psoas.suomi.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:12 you forgot elf :P 08:30:14 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.116] has joined #lisp 08:31:19 in the case of (format t "~nT" output), where n is the colnum, can I specify n with a variable easily? 08:32:09 jack_rabbit: yes. (format t "~vT" n output) 08:32:15 -!- easyE [QCIoV1eK7M@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:32:33 akovalenko: wonderful, thank you. 08:35:11 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 08:36:51 akahl [e-user@nat/nokia/x-ydduzvafquqrygaq] has joined #lisp 08:36:51 e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-snedwbnxbzcfxuhm] has joined #lisp 08:36:56 -!- gavinharper [~gavinharp@dyn3-82-128-184-20.psoas.suomi.net] has quit [] 08:37:27 Adios. Thanks to everyone for their help. 08:37:56 -!- jack_rabbit [~jackrabbi@c-67-175-254-108.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:38:00 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:39:49 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-28-171.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:39:49 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-28-171.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 08:39:49 insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 08:46:00 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 08:46:34 easyE [REZ3zwD6b8@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 08:50:00 snearch [~snearch@g231104139.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:52:23 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:53:32 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d1a3c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:42 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 08:54:42 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:54:59 mishoo_ 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[~user@2a01:e35:2e4a:6920:92e6:baff:fecd:2119] has joined #lisp 09:38:55 Maroni [~user@94.245.202.99] has joined #lisp 09:42:47 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:42:54 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:09 mishoo_ [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 09:44:37 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:50:24 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@222.126.197.129] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:51:43 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:53:43 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:58:28 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@210.Red-88-6-232.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:34 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:28 Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has joined #lisp 10:03:31 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 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10:24:48 -!- akovalenko [~anton@95.73.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:25:28 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 10:25:52 -!- akovalen` is now known as akovalenko 10:27:29 -!- H4ns [5ddbb7b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.219.183.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:28:06 paul0 [~user@200.175.63.190.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 10:35:01 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@anderith.bouah.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:35:15 spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.38.176] has joined #lisp 10:36:01 Pepe_ [~ppjet@anderith.bouah.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:31 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:40:23 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:42:30 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 10:43:50 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 10:45:04 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:45:56 akovalenko: not something of mine, sorry 10:53:19 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 10:57:01 Krystof [~user@77-57-187-186.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:00:10 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:16:41 -!- nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d1a3c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:16:43 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.212.207] has joined #lisp 11:22:28 jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:32:17 -!- jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:33:18 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:33:41 tarmil [~user@catv-86-101-68-45.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:34:53 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:35:09 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:43:27 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:26 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 11:49:18 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:53:49 -!- newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:54:24 -!- jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:55:21 jiacobucci [~jiacobucc@gw-asdl.ae.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 11:56:06 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c30a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:23 hi 12:01:27 -!- djanatyn|afk is now known as djanatyn 12:02:42 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d856053.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: benkard] 12:02:46 has anyone here some experience with parsing latex code? 12:03:18 i don't need to parse the mathematics 12:03:37 but transform the document structure a bit 12:04:09 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:04:53 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:18 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest20113 12:08:43 prxq: http://dlmf.nist.gov/LaTeXML/ 12:09:48 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-81.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:09:56 emarsden: thanks. 12:10:03 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-81.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:10:59 my main problem with all these programs is that it is hard to convince them to /not/ do certain things. Like transforming math into mathml, for example. 12:11:27 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:11:41 I want to use the transformed stuff with mathjax, and so the simple latex notation is fine. 12:13:50 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 12:14:38 -!- Guest20113 is now known as X-Scale 12:15:24 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:15:29 ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.83] has joined #lisp 12:17:02 nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.182.144] has joined #lisp 12:17:07 prxq: Why not a lex-yacc-like solution ? 12:17:38 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.182.144] has quit [Client Quit] 12:17:55 daimrod: lots of potentially avoidable work 12:18:15 daimrod: tex can't be parsed without executing it. 12:19:03 -!- tsuru`` is now known as tsuru 12:19:08 cnl [~cnl@95.106.27.202] has joined #lisp 12:21:09 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177698375.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:21:12 -!- waveman [~tim@124.170.43.134] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:21:22 nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.182.144] has joined #lisp 12:25:08 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.212.207] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 12:28:36 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.233] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:29:04 lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.80.203] has joined #lisp 12:30:19 i would settle for transforming certain environments to divs, and itemize/enumerate to ul/li 12:30:31 A full solution does not make sense anyway, IMO 12:31:03 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-30-15.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:31 *prxq* has been unhappy with latex for quite some time now 12:32:24 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-17-132.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:33:00 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:39:33 oudeis [~oudeis@222.126.197.129] has joined #lisp 12:41:58 which one of the lisp parsing libs are easy to use? I am a complete parsing noob, and would rather not spend too much time on this. 12:42:41 Snaffu [~Snaffu@oh-69-34-16-39.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:03 prxq: recursive descent is easy. 12:43:35 prxq: cl-yacc worked for me 12:44:33 arborist [~arborist@e182027172.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:44:49 Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has joined #lisp 12:45:55 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:46:24 drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has joined #lisp 12:46:37 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:49:56 newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has joined #lisp 12:52:34 replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:53:13 prxq: cl-yacc works well, but like most LALR kits, god help you if your grammer is ambiguous. It does produce a very fast / space efficient parser 12:54:10 prxq: here is a blog post I wrote about my experiences with it recently (it also links to an example, working cl-yacc parser) http://russ.unwashedmeme.com/blog/?p=289 12:55:44 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:56:54 todun_ [~todun@SEAS302.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 12:57:05 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:39 Just out of curiosity, is there anything Parsec-like in CL? 12:58:05 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:18 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 12:59:41 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 13:00:14 -!- Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:00:34 -!- todun [~todun@seasnet-58-02.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:00:45 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:00:46 -!- snearch [~snearch@g231104139.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 13:00:59 Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 13:01:18 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 13:01:21 H4ns [5ce7d34f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.231.211.79] has joined #lisp 13:01:38 -!- todun_ [~todun@SEAS302.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:01:39 after some assessment of the work needed, I went with keyboard macros. 13:03:40 tarmil: havnt used it, but googling for relevant keywords there does seem to be some, including: http://common-lisp.net/~dcrampsie/smug.html 13:04:48 also https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/smug.org 13:04:54 todun [~todun@SEAS302.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 13:08:30 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:08:42 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has joined #lisp 13:09:54 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:17:33 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18:18 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 13:18:36 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has joined #lisp 13:20:01 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:20:47 Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-198-51.uio.no] has joined #lisp 13:21:13 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:24:03 -!- arborist [~arborist@e182027172.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:25:29 wildnux [~wildnux@pool-96-226-69-239.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:30 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:26:33 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:29:04 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:29:12 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-084-061-243-194.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:32:34 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 13:32:34 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 13:32:34 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 13:32:36 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 13:32:55 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has quit [Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...] 13:36:02 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-81.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:36:17 ehu: I published an update of project download statistics 13:36:32 great! 13:36:41 same link? 13:37:33 the stats start to make sense. 13:37:38 great news! 13:39:02 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:40:18 bhyde_ [~bhyde@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:49 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-81.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:43:03 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 13:43:41 anyone else experienced and resolved this lisp works problem? i have a nongui version of lisp works which i'd like to run inside of screen connecting via swank- that's works. but if I quit the lisp doesn't actually quit until i reconnect to it's console via screen and feed a line terminator 13:44:26 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.242.218] has joined #lisp 13:44:39 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 13:45:29 it would be interesting to separate projects downloaded explicitely, and those downloaded as dependencies 13:46:21 it would. 13:47:17 todun_ [~todun@SEAS302.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 13:48:44 Xach: link to the download statistics, pretty please? 13:49:56 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 13:50:24 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:55 flip214: blog.quicklisp.org 13:50:59 duomo [~duomo@d90h29.public.simons-rock.edu] has joined #lisp 13:51:33 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS302.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:51:34 -!- todun_ is now known as todun 13:51:45 bhyde_: how are you quiting? screen doesn't quit when you close your terminal. 13:52:41 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.164.109] has joined #lisp 13:53:43 parabolize: thanks for chiming in. actually what's running in screen is a small script that launches my lispworks-console; in a loop  so my hope was that upon (lw:quit) I'd get a fresh session  so yes; the screen session persists and once i feed mr. lisp works his line-terminator he quits and my loop launches a fresh one 13:54:19 Xach: thanks a lot, very interesting 13:55:18 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:57:00 bhyde_: you expect (lw:quit) to execute without typing a return? 14:04:00 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.242.218] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 14:04:21 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-242-218.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:04:59 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:38 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS302.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: :s] 14:07:40 longtheta [u4275@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uvarenktncxkttmu] has joined #lisp 14:09:54 zfx [~zfx@109.174.157.242] has joined #lisp 14:09:54 -!- zfx [~zfx@109.174.157.242] has quit [Changing host] 14:09:54 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 14:10:31 -!- Harag [~phil@41.56.24.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:10:44 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-81.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:10:51 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-81.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:13:05 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 14:14:07 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:14:22 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:14:51 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:16:55 pkhuong: mind if I pm you? 14:17:36 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 14:17:44 adeht: go ahead 14:18:00 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:18:07 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:21:25 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-242-218.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 14:23:32 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:24:18 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 14:25:03 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 14:27:21 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 14:27:39 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has joined #lisp 14:29:59 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:31:05 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:13 G'morning all. 14:31:36 ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.69] has joined #lisp 14:31:37 nyef: 'morning 14:32:36 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 14:36:50 dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-xbmlgcwecpwmwuhb] has joined #lisp 14:40:38 -!- drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:46:43 helly nyef 14:46:50 hello, that had to be 14:47:06 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-5-112.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:48:01 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-5-112.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Client Quit] 14:50:18 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:50:25 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:50:37 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:18 :-) .. thanks, excited 14:53:42 ha, wrong window. 14:53:55 gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:19 pkhuong: (lw:quit) was injected via slime/swank; not in the screen session 14:59:42 bhyde_: ah. Look in the documentation if there's anything about quit and threads. 15:00:12 SLIME also has a command to kill the underlying lisp. 15:02:05 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.164.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:02:14 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:04:30 xjrn [~chatzilla@c-76-21-48-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:59 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.164.109] has joined #lisp 15:05:03 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:05:20 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:05:50 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:08:29 gavinharper [~gavinharp@dyn3-82-128-184-20.psoas.suomi.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:08 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:09:20 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 15:11:44 pkhuong: i get the same behavior with ,sayoonara in slime; and i'm proud to report I did attempt to RTFM  but i failed to find fastidious doc for lw:quit 15:11:52 Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 15:12:02 cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.183.94] has joined #lisp 15:12:29 antgreen [~user@c74-230.rim.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:45 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5091E65F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:16:39 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:21:51 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:22:19 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 15:24:15 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 15:24:28 hagish [~hagish@p5091E3D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:13 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 15:27:10 -!- duomo [~duomo@d90h29.public.simons-rock.edu] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 15:29:39 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-226-231.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 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timeout: 252 seconds] 16:31:35 -!- rcharle2 [~rcharles@dhcp145.gradapt1.iit.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:31:42 duomo [~duomo@d90h29.public.simons-rock.edu] has joined #lisp 16:32:28 panger [panger@14.98.50.193] has joined #lisp 16:32:30 rcharle2 [~rcharles@dhcp145.gradapt1.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 16:33:02 -!- rcharle2 [~rcharles@dhcp145.gradapt1.iit.edu] has left #lisp 16:33:44 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:13 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has joined #lisp 16:34:46 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:35:40 rcharle2 [~rcharles@dhcp145.gradapt1.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 16:36:26 zfx [~zfx@109.174.157.242] has joined #lisp 16:36:26 -!- zfx [~zfx@109.174.157.242] has quit [Changing host] 16:36:26 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 16:38:16 H4ns, madnificent: I moved development of Toot to https://github.com/gigamonkey/toot/ 16:38:53 how can I use a list stored in a p-list as an expression with destructuring-bind please see http://paste.lisp.org/display/125617 for an example 16:39:18 MrMc: that needs to be (&key address ) 16:39:19 -!- panger [panger@14.98.50.193] has quit [Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 16:39:19 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:39:24 (potentially with &allow-other-keys 16:40:02 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5091E3D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:40:40 gigamonkey: if you use markdown (or textile) and name text files appropriately, github will mark them up very nicely 16:40:40 Cloud__ [~cbolano@189.227.235.57] has joined #lisp 16:41:16 -!- Cloud__ is now known as cesarbp_ 16:41:57 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.183.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:44:03 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-103.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:44:06 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-103.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:44:08 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 16:45:08 -!- emarsden [~user@2a01:e35:2e4a:6920:92e6:baff:fecd:2119] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:45:45 antifuchs: sadly, I'm a NIH Markup user. 16:46:05 Though I've been thinking about some Markup <-> Markdown conversion code. 16:46:32 that would be nice 16:46:59 antifuchs: Do you mean in the destructuring-bind lambda list? Please annotate 16:47:11 Or maybe I could write a Markup implementation in Ruby and give it to the Github guys. 16:47:16 my favorite github feature is that it renders (what would otherwise be) text readmes as nice html with headings and links and stuff (: 16:47:24 gigamonkey: I guess that might work, too! 16:47:26 guidj0s [~guidjos@186.204.186.161] has joined #lisp 16:48:22 drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has joined #lisp 16:48:40 Is there a security danger in INTERNing user-provided strings? I seem to remember hearing that. 16:48:49 MrMc: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125618 (huh, that didn't get made into an annotation. weird) 16:49:01 -!- drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:49:38 Bike: I can probably crash your image if you try it. 16:49:48 How? 16:50:02 Bike: INTERN can create symbols, and the GC can't release them because they're referenced by the package. 16:50:10 Spin in a loop, creating gensyms. 16:50:23 They're all held, can't be GC'd, and you run out of memory. 16:50:33 Or just overload the package system implementation. 16:50:33 drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has joined #lisp 16:50:46 -!- H4ns [5ce7d34f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.231.211.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:50:54 Hm. Thank you, nyef. 16:50:57 FIND-SYMBOL is considerably safer. 16:51:24 -!- drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:52:26 drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has joined #lisp 16:52:37 remind me to submit that patch to SBCL that adds a non-interning mode to reader 16:52:40 Harag [~phil@41.56.50.149] has joined #lisp 16:53:22 -!- drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:54:03 gigamonkey: thanks, started watching it. i assume you'll have a commit message or a tag stating when it's ready for some form of beta use? 16:54:27 -!- duomo [~duomo@d90h29.public.simons-rock.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:55:36 madnificent: sure. 16:55:39 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 16:55:50 Guest33906 [~drake01@115.246.216.242] has joined #lisp 16:55:56 BTW, everything is in master now in that repo. I just deleted the toot branch. 16:56:20 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:56:22 -!- Guest33906 [~drake01@115.246.216.242] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:56:27 p_l: submit the patch to sbcl that adds a non-interning mode to the reader! 16:57:44 madnificent: if you want to kick the tires on it, all you really need is to implement a method on handle-request (look in handlers for some examples) or a function that takes a request object and generates a response and then call (start-server :port :handler ) 16:58:05 -!- tarmil [~user@catv-86-101-68-45.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59:00 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.38.176] has left #lisp 16:59:05 antifuchs: I'll add some tests to make sure I didn't screw it up first, but it was rather trivial thing 17:01:06 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:01:08 antifuchs: no joy &key before &optional breaks the rules. Did you notice that my destructuring-bind expression is getting the list of variables from a plist with getf this is where 17:01:29 where are you putting &optional? 17:01:32 (and why?) 17:02:27 antifuchs: as seen in your paste 17:02:32 duomo [~duomo@d90h29.public.simons-rock.edu] has joined #lisp 17:02:40 it says #|optionally:|# 17:02:42 which is a comment (: 17:03:03 I don't think I'd mind too much if &optional just went away 17:03:07 ok so allow-other-key is not optional 17:03:19 well, it depends on what your plist looks like in the end 17:03:39 if your destructuring-bind form doesn't list as &key all the keys that appear in the plist, you'll need &allow-other-keys 17:03:42 otherwise, you won't 17:03:47 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-001-149.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:04:16 -!- MjrTom [MjrTom@azureus/MjrTom] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:04:17 MjrTom_ [MjrTom@azureus/MjrTom] has joined #lisp 17:04:22 gigamonkey: i'm actually having trouble finishing up what i wanted to get done today. but regardless of that, given the abstractions in handlers.lisp, it might be nice to add to the README an example as to how you can host a static directory and how you can 'host' a function (make-exact-path-handler is likely going to be the most obvious abstraction to use as a new user) 17:04:31 -!- MjrTom_ is now known as MjrTom 17:04:34 gigamonkey: and thanks! 17:05:42 madnificent: Certainly the biggest thing needed at the moment is docs. 17:07:06 tangliSabotage [~tanglisha@c-71-231-137-202.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:04 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:08:21 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 17:08:35 gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:00 rpg [~rpg@184-215-112-68.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:43 cods_ [~cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:00 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d856053.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:02 -!- cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:16:15 -!- cods_ is now known as cods 17:16:38 -!- rpg [~rpg@184-215-112-68.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:16:47 H4ns [5b3d4df9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.77.249] has joined #lisp 17:20:05 -!- finnrobi [~robb@xvm-20-190.ghst.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:20:11 finnrobi [~robb@xvm-20-190.ghst.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:38 -!- kooll [samson_t@sp1.kooll.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:20:55 -!- cesarbp_ [~cbolano@189.227.235.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:21:09 -!- aperturefever [20164@ninthfloor.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:21:13 -!- jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:21:56 aperturefever [20164@ninthfloor.org] has joined #lisp 17:22:11 koollman [samson_t@sp1.kooll.info] has joined #lisp 17:23:36 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:00 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:00 -!- dsp_ [~tt@lebesgue.cowpig.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:24:19 dsp_ [~tt@lebesgue.cowpig.ca] has joined #lisp 17:25:17 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.23.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:26:24 -!- ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:26:46 xtd8 [~xtd@93-96-235-146.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:27:01 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:38 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:29:11 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:31:00 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 17:31:50 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:33:14 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:33:51 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-qghzmntbjdbqqygw] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:34:31 -!- MrMc [~user@port-92-198-52-210.static.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:35:20 -!- gavinharper [~gavinharp@dyn3-82-128-184-20.psoas.suomi.net] has quit [] 17:35:22 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 17:38:50 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #lisp 17:41:10 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Quit: Be back later] 17:48:37 -!- drwho [~drwho@208.7.157.62] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:49:40 peterhil [~peterhil@193-64-22-193-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 17:52:06 drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has joined #lisp 17:54:17 -!- akahl [e-user@nat/nokia/x-ydduzvafquqrygaq] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:17 -!- e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-snedwbnxbzcfxuhm] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:57 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:55:24 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:42 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:58:36 udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 18:01:12 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:01:40 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 18:01:48 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:03:43 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 18:03:57 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:59 I'm trying to figure out how to use slimv and stumbled accross this tutorial: http://kovisoft.bitbucket.org/tutorial.html I read like 2 sentences and it says swank-this, swank-that, I have no goddamn clue what swank is and google doesn't help me either. Any pointers? 18:08:36 oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:06 phryk: swank is the CL side of slime 18:09:12 -!- Krystof [~user@77-57-187-186.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:09:35 situ [~quassel@223.191.81.48] has joined #lisp 18:09:46 it is a CL program that accepts a network connection and does the things slime asks and returns useful info 18:10:07 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 18:11:01 Ah so I install that with quicklisp and all is good? 18:11:22 as long as the versions oof swank and slime match, yes. 18:11:46 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 18:12:50 phryk: i don't know. maybe the slimv docs explain how to set it up. 18:13:29 Yes, but it says only to worry if automatic recognition fails. 18:14:43 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:18:29 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 18:18:31 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has joined #lisp 18:21:03 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d856053.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: benkard] 18:21:26 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 18:21:27 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: 1/0] 18:23:14 cesarbp_ [~cbolano@189.227.235.57] has joined #lisp 18:26:22 Guest84570 [~homie@xdsl-78-35-136-103.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:26:35 todun [~todun@SEAS457.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 18:27:09 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 18:28:20 zfx [~zfx@host86-145-66-157.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:28:20 -!- zfx [~zfx@host86-145-66-157.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:28:20 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 18:28:51 zfx- [~zfx@host86-145-66-157.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:31:45 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:32:47 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:34:35 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:34:42 Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has joined #lisp 18:36:07 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 18:36:39 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:46 (biab) 18:38:19 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 18:39:58 -!- rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:40:02 rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has joined #lisp 18:41:33 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:44 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:41:59 Fare [~Fare@74.125.59.116] has joined #lisp 18:49:03 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:49:03 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 18:49:22 pspace [~andrew@adsl-76-241-89-174.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:28 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 18:55:04 X-Scale` [email@89.180.138.130] has joined #lisp 18:55:42 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:56:47 -!- X-Scale` [email@89.180.138.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:00 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:32 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:01:22 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.187.139] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:01:48 hagish [~hagish@p549824F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:02 X-Scale` [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 19:03:12 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS457.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: :s] 19:03:45 huzzah. all external symbols documented: http://nikodemus.github.com/screamer/ # still needs a rewrite, but getting there... 19:04:05 i think this is the first time in 20 years that there has been a complete manual for screamer :) 19:04:44 nikodemus: do you use it? 19:05:00 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:05:01 not much 19:06:09 -!- Guest84570 [~homie@xdsl-78-35-136-103.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:06:15 but now that i have a decent handle on it, i may start trying to apply it more often 19:06:38 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@210.Red-88-6-232.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 19:06:54 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@210.Red-88-6-232.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:21 -!- X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 19:07:31 nikodemus: Nice looking docs. Is that Texinfo? 19:07:44 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:09:07 *easyE* Answering own question: yes, screamer docs are in texinfo. 19:11:37 marsell [~marsell@120.18.87.106] has joined #lisp 19:11:40 So I'm considering reviving the BLM and renaming it to BDSM. Boston Dynamic System Meeting. Boston Dynamic and Static Meaning. Something like that. 19:11:54 And having a next meeting around early-mid december 19:12:37 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-yxodkhwavbtukmhn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:12:46 ... hahahaha 19:14:43 meanwhile, today was a scary day in Warsaw - we nearly had a transatlantic flight crash :/ 19:14:50 Fare: Might as well just make it the Boston Alternative Languages Meeting 19:15:00 or the Boston Hipster-geeks Meeting 19:15:09 BALMy. 19:15:19 BHGM? Doesn't work 19:15:19 Fare: it's easy to use goofy names for something insignificant, but what if the meeting takes off and becomes a nationwide phenomenon? not everyone will understand the humour when seeing "BDSM" in the newspaper 19:15:40 Cambridge Programming Language Nerd Group? 19:15:51 I dunno. I'd go to the meetings more regularly to see who showed up 19:16:03 reminds me of the scene from dodgeball where they get the uniforms mixed up 19:17:10 Where you going tonight? "To my BDSM meeting, also known as 'Lisp and Leather'." 19:17:45 jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has joined #lisp 19:18:13 Boston Association of Lisp Lovers & Schemers 19:18:31 *Xach* isn't interested in speaking at a group with a terminally stupid name 19:20:48 -!- udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:21:15 BALLS isn't bad, but somehow I'd like to extend it to non-paren languages, as long as we're going to learn something useful to programming programming languages. 19:21:45 Not a topic of interest to me either. 19:22:12 What interests you? 19:23:06 (not that I can please everyone, but, oh well) 19:23:25 *Fare* is running more tests of his run-program wrapper on Windows. 19:24:04 I am interested in Common Lisp hacking. 19:24:20 Getting things done, rather than writing papers about it for academic credentials. 19:24:54 Maybe the population just doesn't support it. 19:25:20 todun [~todun@SEAS335.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 19:26:01 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1C61.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:28:48 Maybe it takes a continent-wide net to catch enough actual CL users to make it worthwhile. 19:29:02 *Xach* really enjoyed ECLM 19:31:30 Xach: I'm only interested in writing good software. CL just happens to be a good tool for that... now if only I can convince my employer of said realization... 19:32:42 be your own employer 19:32:49 (and co-worker that Clojure is an acceptable Clojure, but the only acceptable lisp is a CL...) 19:33:35 stassats: i'll definitely be doing that once I can afford to not make money for a year or so. 19:35:59 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:37:32 Daditos [~kvirc@unaffiliated/daditos] has joined #lisp 19:38:03 benny [~benny@i577A8958.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:38:17 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-nwrqripsylovepmb] has joined #lisp 19:39:43 esdentem [~esden@c-174-62-66-19.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:19 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-103.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:42:22 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-103.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:42:34 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 19:47:56 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:48:58 ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 19:49:22 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 19:49:43 -!- guidj0s [~guidjos@186.204.186.161] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:52:01 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.116] has quit [Quit: Offline] 19:53:07 *Fare* decides to write this complete rename-package around method. I think the algorithm is useful in other upgrade scenarios. 19:53:07 SHODAN [~shozan@c-a1b5e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:55:26 -!- nicdev_ [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55:46 -!- esdentem [~esden@c-174-62-66-19.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:01:39 -!- drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:01:39 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 20:03:49 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:05:28 kig [~kig@93.79.184.13] has joined #lisp 20:07:30 -!- kig is now known as kig_01 20:11:48 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.154] has joined #lisp 20:11:52 -!- kig_01 [~kig@93.79.184.13] has left #lisp 20:12:19 kig_01 [~kig@93.79.184.13] has joined #lisp 20:12:21 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:14:57 In case anyone (who cares) missed it https://github.com/gigamonkey/hunchentoot is dead; long live https://github.com/gigamonkey/toot 20:15:57 does it only remove functionality? or does it some? 20:16:15 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:16:25 add 20:16:29 lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-194-148.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:29 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-194-148.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:16:29 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 20:16:37 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:21:45 rtoym: aroundp 20:22:19 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS335.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: :s] 20:22:46 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:22:49 -!- quackv2 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:23:36 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:24:07 quackv2 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has joined #lisp 20:24:19 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 20:25:12 gigamonkey: is really toot stable enough to replace hunchentoot? 20:26:06 lusory_ [~bart@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 20:26:41 hi, is anybody familiar with error "package "ISYS" not found" while installing iolib 0.7.3 in sbcl via quicklisp? 20:26:50 on windows 20:26:56 -!- dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-xbmlgcwecpwmwuhb] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:27:01 pjb: no way. 20:27:19 So I'll stay with hunchetoot until it is... 20:27:46 stassats: my goal is for toot to be minimal so that more pleasant to use frameworks can be easily built on top of it. 20:28:46 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-103.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:28:50 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 20:28:53 -!- quackv2 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:28:55 -!- lusory [~bart@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:28:58 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-103.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:29:06 quackv2 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has joined #lisp 20:29:12 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:29:24 more low-level? 20:29:33 or more fine-grained control for the framework? 20:29:54 -!- kig_01 [~kig@93.79.184.13] has left #lisp 20:30:04 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 20:30:45 More low-level I think. 20:31:21 Basically all I want it to do is read the HTTP requests, parse them into some reasonable form, and hand them off to a handler which can use a resonable API to generate the response. 20:31:38 Logging and dispatching should be separately pluggable. 20:31:42 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082903F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:50 And then you reimplement hunchentoot over toot right? 20:31:50 todun [~todun@SEAS335.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 20:31:54 gigamonkey: possibly a devils advocate type question, but couldn't you just use mongrel2? 20:32:14 pjb: if anyone likes the hunchentoot API well enough to do so, they can be my guest. ;-) 20:32:19 this description is exactly what you get with mongrel2, indeed 20:32:41 df: well, how does mongrel2 hand off to CL code 20:32:42 ? 20:32:56 gigamonkey: it uses zeromq, which is fairly universally implemented 20:33:18 why would you want to use mongrel2? 20:33:34 in fact somebody has implemented a mongrel2 interface: http://www.cliki.net/cl-mongrel2 20:33:35 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:33:38 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082903F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:38 -!- GeneralMaximus [~general@178.63.185.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:33:38 -!- parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:33:40 GnrlMxms [~general@178.63.185.174] has joined #lisp 20:33:45 -!- GnrlMxms is now known as GeneralMaximus 20:33:47 stassats: simply because http is a solved problem, why reinvent the hweel 20:33:47 lnostdal_ [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:33:50 parabolize [~gyro@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:56 df: actually cl-mongrel2 isn't maintained 20:34:04 df: you can say that about pretty much anything 20:34:09 m2cl is (http://github.com/galdor/m2cl) 20:34:19 df: ... I wonder if it would be possible to mix&match different middlewares with that? 20:34:24 thankfully I'm not. I'm just taking then already invented hunchentoot wheel and chipping off some of the (to my mind) pointy corners. 20:34:36 p_l: if I understand the question, then yes it is 20:35:04 oconnore1 [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:35 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:38:56 df: To add more sides, of course! Going from septagonal wheels to octagonal wheels was a great improvement. Imagine what it'd be like with nonagonal wheels? 20:38:57 oconnore2 [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:57 -!- oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:38:58 -!- gensym``` [~user@95.156.194.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:02 joast [~rick@76.178.187.139] has joined #lisp 20:39:12 -!- oconnore1 [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:39:12 -!- dsp_ [~tt@lebesgue.cowpig.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:39:27 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:39 -!- situ [~quassel@223.191.81.48] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:40:13 dsp_ [~tt@lebesgue.cowpig.ca] has joined #lisp 20:40:58 df: I'm also a Jedi programmer. I need to build my own lightsaber. ;-) 20:41:27 nyef: fewer-angular wheels are better. a triangular wheel goes "bump" one fewer time than a rectangular one (: 20:42:28 antifuchs: I'll have a bi-angular one then. 20:42:34 (another less bump) 20:42:35 gigamonkey: that seems to be a common trait in the CL world 20:42:49 df: indeed. I make no claim it's a good way to live. But there it is. 20:42:53 how about an-angular? or do they call it "circle"? 20:43:00 Hey, at least I started from Hunchentoot. 20:43:32 stassats: nah, that has infinite angles, so way more bumps 20:44:36 -!- quackv2 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:45:56 quackv2 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has joined #lisp 20:46:35 df: but they are infinitely small 20:46:43 antifuchs: Really? How about a two-angle wheel, then? :-D 20:47:10 heh 20:47:47 anyway - that mongrel2 includes a version number in its name would indicate that http is far from solved the one true way yet (-: 20:48:11 (especially with a version number not even remotely resembling pi) 20:48:14 just replace HTTP with something simpler 20:48:29 NFS. 20:48:40 \o/ 20:48:45 gofer 20:49:12 j_king: gopher it can't be, people can't even spell it correctly :) 20:49:31 *prxq* has the gopher firefox plugin installed. 20:49:34 H4ns: just realized that after typin 20:49:41 prxq: that must be useful 20:49:43 it just sits there and does nothing 20:49:57 i know of one person who maintains a gopher site. :) 20:50:01 df: it's not intrusive at all 20:50:14 antifuchs: afaik mongrel's version is less about HTTP and more about the other side 20:50:48 and the fact that rails was crashy as ... 20:50:54 p_l: yeah, I think I read about its history once. but still - my point is that the solutions are still evolving. wheel reinvention can get you out of local maxima (: 20:51:05 p_l: rails with mongrel - sure (: 20:51:12 (nobody has been using that in ages though, I hope) 20:51:50 antifuchs: funnily enough, mongrel *did* have HTTP kind of solved... it was probably the one implementation out there that actually adhered to every-single-point of the spec 20:52:13 heh, I didn't know that (: 20:52:24 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 20:53:44 antifuchs: They ended up catching a lot of variations from various software, because Mongrel's HTTP part was built as a giant FSM in Ragel, with Ragel code written with spec in hand till it had all the cases 20:56:52 H4ns, thanks a lot for merging my patches. Sorry my "fix" to the 503 thing was only a temporary fix. The part about latin1 encoding is particularly ugly. 20:57:29 Fare: just another wart :) 20:58:21 I admit I don't understand the desired design enough to do things right. At the very least there should be some with- macro to setup the request/reply environment in a nicer way. 20:58:32 (probably) 20:59:50 antifuchs: leaving local maxima is easy; finding another one is the trick ;) 21:00:51 drwho [~drwho@static-76-160-37-137.dsl.cavtel.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:39 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@pool-96-226-69-239.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:01:52 -!- duomo [~duomo@d90h29.public.simons-rock.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:02:18 anyone interested in using read interception to build some "interesting" language implementation on top of CL? 21:02:44 see reader-interception in fare-utils 21:03:32 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8684be.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:11 pkhuong: true! 21:04:20 -!- cesarbp_ [~cbolano@189.227.235.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:04:32 Is this a magic date (which Hunchentoot sends if you call no-cache): "Mon, 26 Jul 1997 05:00:00 GMT" 21:04:37 better to make something worse than status quo than never to challenge it, though (: 21:05:42 Fare: i'm interested in CL, can you use that to implement CL? 21:06:00 yup - you could implement a better CL with that. 21:06:12 Fare: I'm building a dsl in CL. I want to be able to retrieve the dependency graph from the resulting program to tell the user about circular references. However, the program is converted to CL and compiled and the DSL allows normal CL to be inserted everywhere. 21:06:12 portably in CL. 21:06:31 does your reader interception help there? 21:06:46 ehu: if replacing the CL reader with your own would help, then yes 21:06:46 a friend of mine tells me to go create a new language 21:06:48 otherwise, no 21:07:12 I'm not sure replacing the reader does help, no. 21:07:22 I think I need to implement a CL walker. 21:07:36 there are many walkers around 21:07:41 gigamonkey: google says it's somewhat magicy 21:07:47 ehu: I think you want to review your goals ;) 21:07:49 problem is: every walker is kind of application-specific 21:08:04 depending on what exactly you need to extract from the program or don't 21:08:23 A codewalker is basically an abstract interpreter of some sort, isn't it? 21:08:45 pkhuong: that's a good point. or at least the means I intend to use to achieve my goal, right? 21:08:46 nyef: not really. I don't see the lattice. 21:08:50 understander 21:08:51 ehu: right. 21:09:24 DSL allowing normal CL to be inserted everywhere => you call the CL reader, you use reader-macros for the CL reader to call yours. As long as you can afford a CL macro character or such, you don't need reader interception. 21:09:54 lutok [~user@ip98-169-240-101.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:38 hmm. using the reader to achieve what I currently do using symbol macros might indeed be a good way. 21:10:40 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-174-73.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:11:05 (convert symbols to function calls, that is) 21:11:09 stassats: great, it's some cargo cult programming from PHP http://tumble.brandt.kurowski.net/post/76203674/mon-26-jul-1997-05-00-00-gmt 21:11:43 *Xach* can't build clisp on mac os x lion, is sick of trying new things that do not work 21:11:50 wrapping it all with a compilation-unit, should allow me to track specification errors in the model. 21:12:28 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-180-93.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:32 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:12:37 that's a direction I should explore more. 21:12:41 thanks! 21:12:55 Xach: Are you having trouble building SBCL on Lion as well? 21:13:33 nyef: no problem 21:13:59 (I'm aware of one nasty bug in SBCL that's triggered with Xcode 4.1.) 21:15:07 *Xach* tries Xcode 4.2 21:15:16 I suppose reader interception is more for compiling unmodified files from a foreign language (say, Python, etc.) directly with COMPILE-FILE, rather than embedding a DSL in CL. 21:16:23 Fare: Or cross-compiling a common-lisp system? 21:16:42 yes, if the two CLs have reader incompatibilities 21:16:56 I'm more thinking isolating the two package systems. 21:17:18 OR, if you want to override how symbols are interned to have separate "syntaxes" a la Genera. 21:17:30 which is about what nyef suggested 21:18:47 reminds me of that package renaming hack I had started working on. 21:18:50 DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@184.99.15.205] has joined #lisp 21:20:40 duomo [~duomo@cpe-69-204-169-245.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:20:54 genera had seperate 'syntaxes'? where do i find more about that? 21:21:27 ehu: AFAICT, its "syntaxes" were just mappings for the various packages. 21:22:01 ah. ok. that's not what I hoped from it. 21:22:02 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-106-67.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:27 ehu: so CL-USER would mean something different whether you're using the ZetaLisp syntax, the Common-Lisp syntax (more or less CLtL1) or the ANSI-Common-Lisp syntax (more or less CLHS). 21:22:52 and they could keep running their old code alongside new code without having to rewrite millions of lines of code. 21:23:10 what did you hope? 21:23:17 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:25:02 good question. I guess I didn't know. But I don't expect the solution to be in a package mapping. Currently, I can distinguish dsl and cl symbols from each other as they are already in different packages. 21:25:13 I'm not sure that helps much. 21:25:27 not sure what kind of DSL you mean 21:27:03 well, I'm not sure I should call it a dsl, but I'm currently using symbol macros as syntactic sugar to allow users to specify mathematical functions tied to symbols. 21:27:33 the mathematic expressions can refer to other expressions by just inserting that symbol in the expression 21:27:43 the symbol expands to a function call. 21:28:01 I think I should just change the order of 'compilation' 21:28:10 ... Reminds me of the games I was going to play with LaTeX and a $ reader-macro... :-D 21:28:11 that way, I know all symbols in advance 21:29:03 which should allow me to be more clever on the symbol replacement. 21:29:41 the main issue I'm having is that I'm never actually processing the expressions myself, yet I want to derive a call graph from them. 21:30:05 benkard_ [~benkard@mnch-4d04de4b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:06 so far, I was just passing the expressions to the compiler in an environment with the symbol macros defined. 21:30:25 -!- bhyde_ [~bhyde@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde_] 21:30:26 that'd automatically expand, but not detect circular dependencies. 21:30:49 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 21:32:48 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8684be.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:32:48 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 21:32:48 ehu: what do the users do with those maths expressions? 21:33:03 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:33:37 prxq: it's very much like an n-dimensional excel sheet: they specify the formulas and other users give the inputs in n-dimensions. 21:33:59 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-198-51.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:34:48 prxq: the calculation driver insures computational consistency and aggregation and manages several other states. 21:35:23 prxq: but in order to inform the user/developer he's making mistakes, I want to inform him of this fact. 21:36:57 ehu: i see. 21:37:09 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 21:38:00 -!- Fare [~Fare@74.125.59.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:39:13 *prxq* makes call graphs using overloaded arithmetic 21:39:41 you overload the operators? 21:40:27 ehu: yes 21:40:47 and after that? 21:41:02 you analyze the actual calls? 21:41:18 i have a class of "number" that keeps track of what happens to it. So I call the function, and get a number plus its history. 21:41:30 ehu: right 21:41:48 ok. I'm still in the 'before execution' phase. 21:42:06 Actually, currently I also intercept the calls and determine circularity from that. 21:42:17 but that's not very user/expert friendly. 21:42:34 disallows recursion 21:42:35 they want to hand a fully functional model to their user/user colleagues. 21:43:06 and frankly, so do I (without spending time on their actual model, of course) 21:43:11 ehu: are you implementing apl? :) 21:44:59 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:47:48 prxq: heh. doesn't look like I am. but who knows what turns up at the end of the tunnel :-) 21:48:01 -!- H4ns [5b3d4df9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.77.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:48:03 actually, my solution isn't about arrays 21:48:29 although my solution could probably be written in APL. 21:48:54 when looking at it. but I doubt if my users would actually get going as easily as with my current solution. 21:51:28 lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 21:52:38 -!- xtd8 [~xtd@93-96-235-146.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:53:16 waveman [~tim@124.170.43.134] has joined #lisp 21:53:48 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS335.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: :s] 21:55:03 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has joined #lisp 21:55:59 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:36 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:04:11 todun [~todun@SEAS335.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 22:06:41 bhyde_ [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:03 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:12:32 jaminja [~jaminja@76.76.24.43] has joined #lisp 22:12:32 -!- jaminja [~jaminja@76.76.24.43] has quit [Changing host] 22:12:32 jaminja [~jaminja@unaffiliated/jaminja] has joined #lisp 22:13:41 -!- hagish [~hagish@p549824F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:16:37 oh, oh: two things that would make a custom reader nice. Codewalking can sometimes be replaced with macro-redefinitions of standard special forms: The macros can expand into code that invokes the standard form (admittedly, it would be nicer to do this from inside the macro expander). And, a customised reader would be enough to override symbol resolution and play with package-local case folding and nicknames, hierarchical packages, etc. 22:16:38 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:17:11 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 22:17:49 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:18:51 -!- ski_ [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:21:39 ski_ [~slj@c83-254-21-112.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:21:42 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:22:21 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:23:24 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:23:41 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 22:24:28 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 22:27:03 Okay, I'm gone. 22:27:06 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 22:27:55 nialo- [~nialo@ool-182d1a3c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:24 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:31:08 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@129-97-120-116.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:34:01 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c30a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:35:21 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 22:35:23 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:35:47 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 22:38:25 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@210.Red-88-6-232.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 22:39:07 -!- xjrn [~chatzilla@c-76-21-48-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20111008085652]] 22:39:41 xjrn [~chatzilla@c-76-21-48-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:36 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.62.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:43:52 cesarbp_ [~cbolano@189.227.235.57] has joined #lisp 22:46:48 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 22:49:19 -!- cesarbp_ is now known as cesarbp 22:49:40 -!- Daditos [~kvirc@unaffiliated/daditos] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 22:51:51 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:56:12 BountyX [~andrew@adsl-76-243-180-104.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:19 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.177.4.198] has joined #lisp 22:56:24 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.177.4.198] has quit [Client Quit] 22:57:27 -!- pspace [~andrew@adsl-76-241-89-174.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:00:09 -!- BountyX [~andrew@adsl-76-243-180-104.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:00:27 phryk: did you get slimv running? 23:01:14 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.177.4.198] has joined #lisp 23:02:04 BountyX [~andrew@adsl-76-243-195-235.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:39 Fare [~Fare@74.125.59.116] has joined #lisp 23:07:18 ehu: are you going to compute a same cell many times if it appears several times in the expansion? 23:07:21 pspace [~andrew@adsl-75-10-158-45.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:36 -!- BountyX [~andrew@adsl-76-243-195-235.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:07:47 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04de4b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:08:20 wouldn't it be better to just (1) expand to a delay/force object (2) actually modify the delay/force object to have three states "computed" "not computed yet" and "computation pending" and trigger a circular dependency error if forced while in the latter state? 23:09:03 maybe have the force operation accumulate the current dependency stack in a PDL, so you can print the circularity 23:09:21 (that's essentially what I do in XCVB to detect circular dependencies) 23:09:55 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:11:40 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:12:24 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-103.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:12:30 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-103.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:12:47 another trick to detect circular dependencies statically is that the body of the symbol macro A1 would be wrapped into a (symbol-macrolet ((dependency-pdl `(cons 'a1 ,(macroexpand 'dependency-pdl env))) (a1 (error "circular dependency ~S" (macroexpand 'dependency-pdf env)))) ...) 23:13:43 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:12 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763eb0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:16:44 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.237] has joined #lisp 23:19:42 lanthan_ [~ze@pD9FEA38C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:58 Fare: uh? lazy computations are quite ok with circular thunks. 23:21:44 not always. And ehu was explicitly trying to detect circularities. 23:21:49 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:22:08 obviously x = y + 1 ; y = x will diverge 23:22:11 anfairch1 [~anthony@c-76-22-14-22.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:36 Fare: depends on the implementation. 23:22:44 depends on many things 23:22:51 -!- lanthan [~ze@pD9555B0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 23:22:58 in any case, ehu asked for ways to detect circularities 23:22:58 Not obviously, then. 23:23:05 here are two, at runtime, and at compile-time 23:23:27 -!- anfairch [~anthony@c-76-22-14-22.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:23:43 Fare: but there are various kinds of circularity. Let x = x ... is one. Is Let x = (cons 1 x) ... circular? 23:23:46 none of which require him to write a code-walker or macroexpander 23:23:59 sure. 23:24:17 -!- paul0 [~user@200.175.63.190.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:25:22 it's a kind of circularity, but with some level of "protection" that makes it ok in a lazy / coinductive setting. 23:26:28 is anyone considering a coinductive successor function for "integers"? 23:26:52 0, 1, 2, 3... n... top 23:27:29 reminds me of a book about non-standard analysis "and yet they don't fill up N" 23:27:59 (though it's a different topic from those co-integers) 23:28:53 -!- oconnore2 [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:29:06 Fare: I think Charity meant to allow that. It exposed church numerals and the rest was considered an optimisation. 23:30:25 "Church made numerals; all else is the work of a programmer." 23:31:30 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-99-216.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:08 -!- drwho [~drwho@static-76-160-37-137.dsl.cavtel.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:32:38 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:33:35 Charity: URL? 23:35:21 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS335.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: :s] 23:37:22 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 23:37:55 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:37:58 lanthan__ [~ze@pD9FEAA58.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:11 todun [~todun@SEAS335.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 23:38:49 -!- lanthan_ [~ze@pD9FEA38C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:40:00 -!- Fare [~Fare@74.125.59.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:40:18 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:53 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-76.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:42:58 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:43:25 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:50:26 drwho [~drwho@static-76-160-37-137.dsl.cavtel.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:35 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:54:41 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-87-194-178.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:57:57 -!- easyE [REZ3zwD6b8@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]