00:01:46 -!- df [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:02:09 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:02:26 wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:27 coderdad [~coderdad@ip72-200-211-242.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:17 -!- pon1980 [~pon@h195n2-haes-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:03:36 -!- benny [~benny@i577A869C.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:05:26 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:05:31 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-45-22-54.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:48 yates [~yates@cpe-72-190-94-182.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:13 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:06:18 what is a free CL for the PC/windows and a corresponding GUI library? 00:06:31 wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:01 Obfuscate: eschew obfuscation 00:08:35 free CL for the PC/windows are SBCL, CLISP, ClozureCL, and (iirc) free offerings from Allegro and Lispworks.. 00:08:58 df [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 00:09:10 corresponding GUI libraries are cl-gtk2, commonqt, MCCLIM, ltk... _dis_respectively. 00:09:12 akovalenko: ok thank you 00:09:17 great! thanks 00:09:47 madnificent: How did you get ecl to work at all? 00:10:00 -!- gensym``` [~user@95.156.194.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:10:02 *akovalenko* forgot to mention ECL, which works on Windows, too 00:10:29 *akovalenko* also forgot to refer , just this time 00:10:41 -!- churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:11:10 *akovalenko* forgot to add that has links to up-to-date installers and binaries... 00:13:14 also, ECL has EQL, a direct binding to Qt which might work on windows too 00:14:53 -!- todun [~todun@173-15-156-69-BusName-Philadelphia.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: todun] 00:14:54 -!- Guest47680 [~martin@chop.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:21:11 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:21:48 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:22:11 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.227.234.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:22:27 Guest31989 [~martin@67.207.131.107] has joined #lisp 00:27:21 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.243.79] has joined #lisp 00:27:31 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.227.234.39] has joined #lisp 00:27:40 ikki [~ikki@219-externo-1p5ec.vxn.itelcel.com] has joined #lisp 00:28:38 churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 00:29:30 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:33:12 wildnux [~wildnux@pool-71-96-211-239.dfw.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:53 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.227.234.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:34:53 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has joined #lisp 00:36:56 felideon [~fdelgado@184.105.242.75] has joined #lisp 00:37:30 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:37:47 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7C781.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:38:55 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-129-23.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:41:01 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-101-79.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:42:00 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-88-18.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:42:35 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-101-79.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:37 drdo: in what sense? 00:46:58 Anyone have Scieneer CL handy? 00:47:15 Trying to find out if "EXT" is a nickname of package "EXTENSIONS". 00:48:20 drdo: i must admit that i didn't get hunchentoot running correctly, so my efforts were in vain 00:48:49 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:49:04 -!- thumbflip [~cmsimon@static-50-43-55-69.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:51:08 madnificent: in the sense that i can't build it 00:52:58 daveo [~daveo@97.73.171.234] has joined #lisp 00:53:37 are there any cross-platform text editors (not full IDEs) besides emacs that people build development tools into? I know of notepad++, but that's windows-only 00:53:55 vim 00:54:08 xemacs? 00:54:11 heh 00:54:30 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.243.79] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 00:54:58 so, probably not? :) (re: vim, need something that users of modern text editors would be more familiar with) 00:55:01 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:16 notepad++ on wine? (that could actually work, though I didn't try...) 00:55:19 Phoodus: what's wrong with emacs? 00:55:52 asking about "some good editors" here is pointless, unless "non-emacs" requirement is added. 00:56:09 I'm asking about "some simple editors" for deploying some tools talking to our stuff 00:56:53 Phoodus: You could always use web 00:57:28 drdo: we've used Flash in the past, but there's no decent editable text area for that, even after scouring 3rd party libs 00:57:49 there are advantages in simplifying emacs to the level of notepad.exe with custom bindings: (1) if users want a new feature, you can always enable it back, and (2) you may leave a backdoor like C-M-s-F12 for yourself :) 00:57:50 Phoodus: i meant just a plain html form 00:58:04 akovalenko: true 00:58:48 drdo: we need to hit sockets in order to gain the editor functionality we need. Flash provided us with that, we'd have to write an http acceptor and do a whole different set of webby stuff to enable that 00:59:31 DrRacket? 00:59:38 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:59:39 What do you mean "hit sockets"? 00:59:46 open up binary tcp sockets to a server 00:59:58 bidirectional, long-lived comms through it 01:00:03 and what's the trouble with that? 01:00:11 from a html page? 01:00:14 what does that have to do with the interface? 01:00:21 huh? 01:00:56 google apps? 01:01:18 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:01:19 Well, you could just have your whole application as normal, just with an http server so the browser can connect 01:01:24 they've got client-side libs for hitting real sockets? does that require HTML5 on the client? 01:01:33 Phoodus: You don't need that 01:01:37 <_schulte_> Phoodus: I think you could look at "comet" (a suite of technology for continuous interaction over http) 01:01:45 we don't do anything http yet 01:02:17 but it doesn't sound like there's any Notepad++ like editor that's crossplatform. Emacs with custom bindings to make it more "normal" for people sounds like the best approach so far 01:02:50 drdo: i'm not the one to which questions about compiling ecl should be directed, i'm no expert. it used to fail here as well, though 11.1.1 seems to compile as expected. 01:02:54 wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:27 madnificent: i pulled from git, it's failing here, i remember giving up on ecl some months ago, it didn't build back then either 01:03:59 madnificent: wasn't that some usocket thing? While usocket is not too mature on Windows yet, usocket people aren't lazy about fixing bugs and applying patches.. 01:04:11 and the archlinux package one is missing the executable 01:07:03 Kron [~Kron@98.143.102.22] has joined #lisp 01:07:27 akovalenko: i haven't looked into it. i check ecl from time to time and see if my software runs on it. in most cases it does, but dependencies yield issues. i'm still eagerly waiting for the moment at which something just runs under ECL :-) 01:07:29 -!- Kron is now known as Guest70939 01:08:01 drdo: does the configure stage work? you could try pasting the error and see if someone smart jumps on it. 01:09:09 thumbflip [~cmsimon@static-50-43-55-69.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:13 akovalenko: is ecl supposed to run hunchentooth under linux? i generally only target free platforms. 01:10:55 /bin/sh: ./dpp: No such file or directory 01:10:56 madnificent: no idea: I occasionally use ECL for portability tests and check it out for interesting new features. But if that were a bug and not "not ported yet" thing, I'd take a look at it next time.. 01:11:04 Apparently this is the first error 01:11:28 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-219-175.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:12:00 -!- triliyn [~desmond@76-206-56-151.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 01:14:58 -!- daveo [~daveo@97.73.171.234] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:15:58 cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.213.142] has joined #lisp 01:16:37 drdo: you've done > make clean; ./configure; make; right? 01:16:42 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:44 does it fail after the configure? 01:17:12 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@ip72-200-211-242.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:17:12 fails on make install i think 01:17:24 wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:34 coderdad [~coderdad@ip72-200-211-242.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:27 ISF [~ivan@201.82.133.10] has joined #lisp 01:20:39 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:22:28 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-45-22-54.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:23:49 what 01:23:53 now it built 01:23:54 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.213.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:24:04 The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:12 the only difference is that i didn't use "-j2" on make 01:24:24 akovalenko: cl-gtk2 says its not on windows: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-gtk2/ 01:24:30 hunchentoot on ECL: http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.lib.tbnl.general/3242 01:24:41 see under "not yet complete" 01:24:59 "Support for Gtk+ on Microsoft Windows and Mac OS X" 01:25:08 yates: people run it (on my SBCL fork only, probably -- IIRC it requires multi-threading) 01:25:12 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:26:08 yates: but it's probably not yet for someone who isn't ready to solve problems when they appear.. 01:27:07 -!- thumbflip [~cmsimon@static-50-43-55-69.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:27:15 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@108.60.121.114] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 01:27:54 ok 01:30:23 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:30:26 drdo: probably a dependency didn't get identified correctly 01:30:36 which lead to make parallelizing dependent things 01:31:18 drdo: happened here a bit earlier as well, or so it seemed. 01:32:13 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 01:32:20 akovalenko: i guess that'll be in the next quicklisp release then :) 01:33:06 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 01:34:13 madnificent: there's also a problem with CL+SSL (weak hash table support is required; either there is no such thing in ECL, or TRIVIAL-GARBAGE is not yet aware of it. You may just skip CL+SSL, selecting an ACCEPT restart). 01:35:03 -!- prip [~foo@host53-121-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:35:05 set-timeout thing is what I just ran into when I tried to quickload & run hunchentoot, and I decdided to google before I write my own patch :) 01:38:18 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@210.21.226.34] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:38:42 akovalenko: yeah, that's been the case longer. in testing i've always just accepted that, it's minor. 01:39:26 akovalenko: wasn't there a feature you could enable to make hunchentoot *not* use cl+ssl? 01:39:36 madnificent: as of the next quicklisp release, that's a bit overoptimistic, as Xach doesn't apply third-party patches and is not too fond of including forks & VCS heads when there _are_ maintainers and releases. (heh, should I pretend to take over CHIPZ maintenance? Sleeping on a critical patch for 4 months is something that I'm perfectly capable of doing, anyway) 01:40:22 akovalenko: i'd have assumed hunchentoot would budge quicker, not quicklisp 01:40:25 akovalenko: nathan said he would try to push out updates very soon 01:40:28 :hunchentoot-no-ssl, yep 01:40:51 and hi Xach 01:41:38 Xach: well, then I'm forking/taking over CHIPZ very soon + 2 extra weeks, if nothing happens :) 01:42:18 -!- samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:42:50 samebchase [~samuel@76.73.121.203] has joined #lisp 01:44:52 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-9-153.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:45:59 goodnight #lisp 01:46:09 'morning :) 01:47:31 prip [~foo@host4-125-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 01:49:01 -!- djanatyn is now known as djanatyn|afl 01:49:05 -!- djanatyn|afl is now known as djanatyn|afk 01:51:05 -!- redline6561_nop is now known as redline6561 01:51:44 -!- xwolf- [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC 0.5.CVS (2007/05/06)] 01:51:56 gko [~gko@42-73-145-77.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:24 kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-1-162-17.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 01:56:08 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-155-138.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:57:43 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.136.204.252] has joined #lisp 02:00:48 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.221.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:01:50 ISF_ [~ivan@201.82.133.10] has joined #lisp 02:02:12 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has joined #lisp 02:02:28 -!- gko [~gko@42-73-145-77.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:04:44 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.133.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:04:46 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:06:18 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:19 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 02:10:58 gko [~gko@42-73-145-77.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:59 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:45 -!- gko [~gko@42-73-145-77.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:24:31 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: totzeit] 02:25:00 gko [~gko@42-73-145-77.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:52 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-219-175.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:24 -!- ikki [~ikki@219-externo-1p5ec.vxn.itelcel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:27:51 Okay, make-tmp-file-name in the rfc2388 library is a nasty kludge. 02:28:06 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@ip72-200-211-242.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:30:00 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p54839D9E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:35:49 -!- akovalenko [~anton@95.73.122.127] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:41:56 akovalenko [~anton@95.73.122.127] has joined #lisp 02:49:31 Cloud__ [~cbolano@187.193.245.228] has joined #lisp 02:50:48 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.136.204.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:54:15 -!- redline6561 is now known as redline6561_nop 02:57:26 oudeis [~oudeis@59.37.63.109] has joined #lisp 02:57:52 -!- akovalenko [~anton@95.73.122.127] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:00:10 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@59.37.63.109] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:00:43 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@pool-71-96-211-239.dfw.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:05:23 -!- el-maxo [~max@p57A5708F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:06:53 nicdev_ [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:21 el-maxo [~max@p5DE8C6BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:36 -!- harovali1 [~harovali@r190-134-144-198.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:12:24 Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:39 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-45-22-54.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:41 fe[nl]ix: Does IOLib do async dns? 03:24:06 harovali [~harovali@r190-64-99-240.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:25:14 -!- Cloud__ [~cbolano@187.193.245.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:26:09 oudeis [~oudeis@59.37.63.109] has joined #lisp 03:26:50 cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.245.228] has joined #lisp 03:28:27 -!- gko [~gko@42-73-145-77.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:29:14 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:31:20 gko [~gko@42-73-145-77.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:53 akovalenko [~anton@95.73.122.127] has joined #lisp 03:35:55 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-45-22-54.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:36:31 Quaydon [~robert@cpe-071-068-114-143.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:41:55 tritchey [~tritchey@12.207.196.2] has joined #lisp 03:45:38 Kron [~Kron@69.166.20.172] has joined #lisp 03:46:02 -!- Kron is now known as Guest19317 03:46:23 -!- Guest19317 [~Kron@69.166.20.172] has quit [Client Quit] 03:46:24 -!- Guest70939 [~Kron@98.143.102.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:47:27 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.172] has joined #lisp 03:51:01 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-123-220.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:52:16 holycow [~holycow@host-64-151-208-2.bchsia.in2net.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:20 Kron__ [~Kron@69.166.20.172] has joined #lisp 03:54:48 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:55:04 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@59.37.63.109] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:57:05 Guest71566 [~chatzilla@2001:250:3003:80:224:21ff:fe09:750e] has joined #lisp 03:57:32 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 04:00:38 oudeis [~oudeis@59.37.63.109] has joined #lisp 04:02:18 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 04:04:22 -!- Guest71566 [~chatzilla@2001:250:3003:80:224:21ff:fe09:750e] has left #lisp 04:06:30 saimazoon [~jtk@84.77.83.207] has joined #lisp 04:13:14 morphism [~Nevermind@123.16.98.214] has joined #lisp 04:13:27 mdh [~user@cpe-98-155-87-40.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:13:28 daniel__ [~daniel@p5B32609B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:04 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082AAAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:16:06 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@123.16.98.214] has quit [Client Quit] 04:24:43 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.54.87] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 04:28:17 Zulu_Inuoe [~zulu12@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:59 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@12.207.196.2] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 04:31:11 It seems that the dot character is not set as a macro character in the readtable for SBCL (I can't say for other lisps). I understand that its correct detection (as part of a list) is handled by the read-list function specifically. However, an out-of-place dot (such as typing it alone at the REPL) is detected as a "Dot context error". Is there any way to modify this behavior by read ? 04:33:42 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:36:35 coderdad [~coderdad@ip72-200-211-242.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:52 Zulu_Inuoe: set-macro-character seems to work, but I'm not sure it's legal to modify that. 04:39:08 Zulu_Inuoe: as of "seems to work", in SBCL it's kinda useless, 'cause its macro function is called only when it's seen at top level, while the special handling prevails within lists... 04:39:41 todun [~todun@pool-108-52-34-244.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:29 akovalenko: That's what I was expecting the 'solution' to do, because internally the special handling of the dot in lists is handled by the read-list function, so there's no real way of modifying that other than overwriting the default one 04:40:51 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:40:59 Zulu_Inuoe: then something like (set-macro-character #\. (constantly '|.|) t *my-readtable*) 04:41:06 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 04:41:58 I don't like the idea of a 'hidden' function set to the dot to indicate a dot context error, however. But I suppose this is a solution 04:42:01 also, .3e2 ceases to be a valid syntax for floats.. 04:42:03 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-101-79.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:42:18 akovalenko: Haha, oh no! 04:42:42 as long as it's non-terminating, 1.5 remains valid 04:43:20 ...and #\( reader is not cast in stone either -- just replace it with something not so sensitive. 04:44:17 Bike_ [~Glossina@71-214-101-79.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:22 akovalenko: Yes I know. That's what I suggested.. though I guess 'overwriting' was a poor choice of a word. 04:44:23 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 04:44:29 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:44:43 well, in SBCL dot is special within #(foo . nil) as well (I'm not sure if it's conforming, but...) 04:46:10 akovalenko: That's interesting, I never thought of that. I guess internally it calls read-list to grab all the elements 04:47:23 that's obvious, but this internal thing could accept some dot-special-p and provide other behaviour.. 04:49:34 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 04:49:43 akovalenko: Well, list syntax is part of the language specification so there isn't much necessity to add that customizatibility. And realistically, the applications are few (which could be done with other methods anyway) 04:51:16 akovalenko: I'm honestly more bothered by #\. not having a function attatched to it, but #\) having a very similar one (simply errors). It bothers me for it to be different like that 04:51:47 ..and my |.| should really be something unreadable in any other way, like a standard-object.. 04:52:35 akovalenko: Yes I believe |.| to be incorrect as per what you want it to do. Should probably call intern or something in order to take into account packages. Otherwise you'd return the wrong symbol 04:55:23 Zulu_Inuoe: that's right if we want . to be (or pretend to be) an almost-usual-constituent. However, even if we get rid of "consing dot" semantics, it seems that "." becomes a potential number... 04:57:54 akovalenko: Oh, forgot about that. Then again, I hate floating point numbers anyway so no skin off my nose haha 05:00:16 you'd better hate dots and decline to accept them up front :) 05:01:24 pitlimit [~pitlimit@unaffiliated/pitlimit] has joined #lisp 05:01:37 Is there a function that can compare two lists and tell me how many elements they have in common 05:01:55 -!- cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:02:01 cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 05:02:21 Zulu_Inuoe: anyway, when you need anything from CL reader, there's a portable reader by pjb among com.informatimago packages (GPL). 05:02:27 pitlimit: MISMATCH 05:03:10 thanks akovalenko 05:03:33 pitlimit: read http://l1sp.org/cl/mismatch before use. It's somewhat more flexible than one could expect.. 05:06:58 thanks 05:07:04 akovalenko: Oh wow that looks great. Thank you very much 05:07:12 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-101-79.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:09:52 akovalenko: Welp, I'm off. Thanks again, looks like there's a lot other nifty stuff in there too 05:10:36 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-2925098629.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:10:36 -!- Zulu_Inuoe [~zulu12@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:10:54 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@ip72-200-211-242.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:11:16 Bike_ [~Glossina@71-214-101-79.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:11 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-219-175.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:14:18 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-219-175.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:02 sellout- [~Adium@12.232.236.2] has joined #lisp 05:18:42 -!- gko [~gko@42-73-145-77.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:18:44 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.60.2] has joined #lisp 05:19:24 freecoolringtone [4dbda7a8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.189.167.168] has joined #lisp 05:25:06 -!- freecoolringtone [4dbda7a8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.189.167.168] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:28:05 -!- Quaydon [~robert@cpe-071-068-114-143.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:33:47 coderdad [~coderdad@ip72-200-211-242.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:09 schme [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 05:43:09 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 05:43:09 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 05:44:45 mindbender1 [~chijioke@41.155.22.202] has joined #lisp 05:45:00 hi 05:47:11 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:47:29 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 05:52:41 -!- todun [~todun@pool-108-52-34-244.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: todun] 05:56:47 Quaydon [~robert@cpe-071-068-114-143.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:00:26 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:02:34 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 06:04:53 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:07:46 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-209-159.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:08:13 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:08:51 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-deallqozijsobvqz] has joined #lisp 06:09:02 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:10:36 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:10:37 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.76] has joined #lisp 06:10:37 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.76] has quit [Changing host] 06:10:37 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 06:10:39 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:11:58 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@69.166.20.172] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 06:14:35 mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has joined #lisp 06:14:36 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:14:48 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 06:14:50 rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:24 -!- doritos [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:20:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:20:17 -!- mindbender1 [~chijioke@41.155.22.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:20:58 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-235.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:22:24 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 06:22:24 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 06:26:21 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:27:39 -!- Quaydon [~robert@cpe-071-068-114-143.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:31:15 -!- cheezus [~Adium@bas2-toronto36-1177696336.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:31:54 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.28.90] has joined #lisp 06:36:44 qsun [~user@123-243-18-22.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:37:07 -!- qsun [~user@123-243-18-22.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 06:37:40 qsun [~user@123-243-18-22.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:37:44 -!- qsun [~user@123-243-18-22.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 06:38:39 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@78-23-214-6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:38:48 xwolf- [~xwolf-@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 06:40:49 qsun [~user@123-243-18-22.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:42:15 hello. I'm getting very strange behavior with SLIME + CCL on this function. if I type it in the repl everything is fine, but if I do slime-compile-defun on from the source I am getting this error: value NIL is not of the expected type NUMBER. [Condition of type TYPE-ERROR] 06:42:37 (defmethod foo ((set list)) (sort set #'<) 0) 06:42:55 if I remove sort form problem goes away 06:43:57 if I remove 0 I don't get that error either 06:45:53 -!- Bike_ [~Glossina@71-214-101-79.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:46:59 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has joined #lisp 06:48:48 mindbender1 [~chijioke@41.203.64.130] has joined #lisp 06:52:31 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:54:24 -!- markskilbeck [~Mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:54:27 schme [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:54:27 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 06:54:27 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 06:56:15 -!- mindbender1 [~chijioke@41.203.64.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:59:14 easyE [j4Vd5fhKVV@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 06:59:20 -!- daimrod [~daimrod@sbrk.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:59:34 daimrod [~daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 07:00:07 markskilbeck [~Mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 07:00:43 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:12 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-235.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:03:28 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:06:46 Guest53273 [~quassel@69.158.123.28] has joined #lisp 07:09:36 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:14:34 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:15:41 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@ip72-200-211-242.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:15:43 I'm trying to use the queue library, but when I type "(require :queue)" I get > Error While executing: REQUIRE, in process listener(1). 07:15:52 -!- dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:15:59 nostoi [~nostoi@162.Red-79-155-229.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:04 Can anyone help me resolve that error 07:16:05 dnjaramba [~dnjaramba@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 07:16:13 pitlimit: i avoid require 07:16:35 pitlimit: rather, i use (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op ). that is more predictable and works everywhere. 07:16:48 pitlimit: did you load the queue library through quicklisp? 07:17:11 mindbender1 [~chijioke@41.155.52.101] has joined #lisp 07:18:14 no ccl 07:18:31 I wnat to use something that will work in all environments 07:18:39 pitlimit: right. then use quicklisp. 07:18:45 oh :( 07:18:53 pitlimit: what makes you sad? 07:20:59 well 07:21:18 I'm doing this for an assignment 07:21:27 and the teacher used (require :queue) 07:21:37 pitlimit: ask your teacher then. 07:21:57 lisp documentation is weird 07:22:15 it's not ... everywhere online... like other languages 07:22:31 i usually use http://l1sp.org/ 07:22:52 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:23:36 H4ns, How can I use (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op ) with queue 07:24:01 pitlimit: i don't know what "queue" is. please ask your teacher or look into your course documentation. 07:25:44 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:29:17 good morning everyone 07:32:34 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:32:44 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:34:10 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 07:34:48 Amyn [~abennama@64.208.49.20] has joined #lisp 07:35:19 -!- pitlimit [~pitlimit@unaffiliated/pitlimit] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:35:56 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:35:56 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:36:59 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:38:32 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 07:41:15 good morning! (afternoon here) 07:41:41 good afternoon (here as well, but I just woke up) 07:41:47 hehe 07:41:53 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 07:43:01 MB_HCM [~chatzilla@tupapau.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 07:43:05 *akovalenko* is fighting all that timezone/offsets/DST nonsense by living according to UTC :-/ 07:43:32 akovalenko: I don't think that UTC matches "good afternoon" 07:44:14 whatever happened to that swatch.beat internet time thing from the 90s? 07:44:22 flip214: it perfectly matches "I just woke up", even though it's good afternoon _officially_. 07:45:50 Swatch Internet Time became the official time system for Nation1, an online country created and run by children. 07:45:53 -!- MB_HCM is now known as MBA_Bdx 07:45:57 -!- cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:45:57 cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 07:46:00 brandelune_ [~suzume@pl316.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:46:15 haha 07:46:38 xjrn: i just googled that - thought you were joking! 07:46:50 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:47:59 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:48:06 akovalenko: so you really mean "good afterslumber" ;) Ah, now I get it ... 07:48:07 -!- easyE [j4Vd5fhKVV@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:48:13 ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has joined #lisp 07:49:37 schme [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:49:37 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 07:49:37 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 07:50:40 -!- H4ns [57bd7766@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.189.119.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:51:19 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@162.Red-79-155-229.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:51:20 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:52:04 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has joined #lisp 07:52:10 trebor_dki 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#lisp 09:32:51 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:35:31 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.193.139] has joined #lisp 09:35:31 -!- drake01 [~drake01@115.246.193.139] has quit [Changing host] 09:35:31 drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has joined #lisp 09:35:38 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:36:53 orangejuice [~orangejui@66.96.251.117] has joined #lisp 09:37:26 Oh brothers and sisters, let me tell you: slimv 0.9.2 is near! 09:37:42 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:37:45 hold fast! 09:38:57 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-243-79.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 09:39:29 -!- drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has quit [Client Quit] 09:39:51 drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has joined #lisp 09:40:38 c_arenz [~arenz@dialin-212-144-134-217.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:15 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-159-125.as43234.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:41:33 -!- drake01 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timeout: 244 seconds] 10:22:02 Axioplase [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 10:22:03 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.245.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:22:05 akovalen` [~anton@95.72.96.201] has joined #lisp 10:22:26 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9518027.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:23:36 -!- akovalenko [~anton@95.73.122.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:24:11 Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:30 flip214: Are you in any way involved in vim development itself, esp. their python bindings? I ask because its broken (eating up its own stack somewhere in their python module) and I thus cannot use slimv. 10:26:41 rosario [~rosario@141.44.234.188] has joined #lisp 10:26:41 -!- rosario [~rosario@141.44.234.188] has quit [Changing host] 10:26:41 rosario [~rosario@fsf/member/rosario] has joined #lisp 10:26:43 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:27:24 Yuuhi [benni@p54839A07.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:25 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:27:47 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has joined #lisp 10:27:53 fmeyer [~fmeyer@201.87.5.59.user.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 10:27:55 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@dialin-212-144-134-217.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:28:22 -!- akovalen` is now known as akovalenko 10:33:04 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:33:58 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 10:34:25 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 10:36:51 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125527 <-- This algorithm can overflow but why does it happen for (cubic-root 3 1e-7) in SBCL or CLISP already? Even in Java this does not happen... Is it possible to change the size of the stack in CL? 10:37:25 rosario: tu lo dici il rosario? 10:37:26 -!- sellout- [~Adium@12.232.236.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:37:26 sellout-1 [~Adium@12.232.236.2] has joined #lisp 10:37:32 flip214: sys -64738 10:37:55 -!- gko [~gko@42-73-192-52.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:39:02 Posterdati: Sorry, I don't speak Italian (?) 10:39:40 ok 10:39:56 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 10:41:30 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:41:54 Btw. after compiling this (in CLISP and SBCL) it does not overflow anymore but goes into an endless loop... 10:42:07 Tapioco [~quassel@host133-226-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:43:22 rosario: how do you know the loop is endless? 10:43:27 rosario: maybe your program has a bug? 10:43:30 -!- cheezus [~Adium@bas2-toronto36-1177696336.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:43:30 Well, I don't. 10:43:51 gko [~gko@42-73-192-52.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:53 rosario: you don't what? 10:44:23 rosario: then don't write a recursive function that does not converge to the base case 10:44:28 I don't know whether it's an endless loop or not but I looks like it is. 10:44:48 *it 10:44:55 -I 10:45:00 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:45:01 rosario: well, then what you see is deep recursion because the function does not terminate and endless looping when the tail call is eliminated. 10:45:14 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 10:46:13 nurv101 [~nurv101@2001:690:2100:2:4687:fcff:fe91:9c05] has joined #lisp 10:46:28 spacefrogg: no, I'm not involved in vim -- a bit in slimv, perhaps. 10:46:31 Hm, thanks, I'll check. 10:46:35 -!- rosario [~rosario@fsf/member/rosario] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:46:49 spacefrogg: make _absolutely_ sure that you use the correct python version -- check :version output 10:47:11 is that on windows, linux, macos, ...? 10:47:14 rosario: (1) evaluate single-float-epsilon, (2) think of floats and how they [mis]behave, (3) either use double-float (incorrect but has better chance...), or check that distance decreases on each step (correct). 10:47:34 *akovalenko* was too late.. 10:49:25 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: work?] 10:50:41 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@GGYZKMMDCCLIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:50:45 cheezus [~Adium@bas2-toronto36-1177696336.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 10:50:47 -!- drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:51:22 peterhil [~peterhil@GGYZKMMDCCLIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 10:52:47 -!- Tapioco [~quassel@host133-226-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:54:00 nikodemus_pad [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:55:10 nikodemus_pad: hi 10:55:44 / 10:59:06 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.28.90] has left #lisp 11:05:41 -!- nikodemus_pad [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 11:06:49 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:08:47 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:12:15 mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 11:12:15 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:12:45 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has joined #lisp 11:14:55 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-209-159.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:15:20 gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:30 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@201.87.5.59.user.ajato.com.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:17:47 for testing whether we've reached the end of the list, is it generally preferable to use endp rather than null? i suspect both would suffice just fine, but that endp is specifically for lists, so might be preferred. 11:18:20 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.154.65] has joined #lisp 11:18:37 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:19:04 dsp_: i use neither. 11:19:24 -!- dfox [~dfox@2001:470:9d8f:0:4261:86ff:fe8e:8446] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 11:20:31 ugh. Academics can have some horrible S-expression writing style 11:20:54 fmeyer [~fmeyer@201.87.5.59.user.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 11:21:07 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-253.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:21:24 *p_l* sits in a JESS lecture and sees parens on their own lines 11:23:37 p_l: there was a speaker at ECLM that did that too 11:23:53 marcusk [~mk@kennedy.acc.umu.se] has joined #lisp 11:23:54 not even an academic 11:25:13 I tend to filter those things, but today I'm too sleepy and my pet project of last week... got killed and restarted 11:31:12 -!- gko [~gko@42-73-192-52.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:31:45 gko [~gko@111.81.33.53] has joined #lisp 11:32:03 pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 11:32:21 -!- drdo [~drdo@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:33:37 pjb-: hi 11:36:50 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@201.87.5.59.user.ajato.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:36:54 dfox [~dfox@2001:470:9d8f:0:4261:86ff:fe8e:8446] has joined #lisp 11:42:28 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.20.8.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:44:07 -!- xwolf- [~xwolf-@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Session timeout)] 11:44:44 lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 11:45:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-253.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:45:50 easyE [33dUWaIEgL@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 11:46:42 orangejuice [~orangejui@66.96.251.117] has joined #lisp 11:47:07 -!- dfox [~dfox@2001:470:9d8f:0:4261:86ff:fe8e:8446] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:52:31 mdh` [~user@cpe-98-155-87-40.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:52:39 -!- mdh [~user@cpe-98-155-87-40.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:53:55 Posterdati: hi! 11:57:12 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 11:57:39 -!- H4ns [d4b9ede3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.185.237.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:02:05 todun [~todun@pool-108-52-34-244.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:54 leo2007 [~leo@114.83.247.108] has joined #lisp 12:07:53 p_l: restarted... as a C++ project? 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12:32:19 Xach: i'm writing my own http 12:32:28 Xach: for educational purpose 12:32:50 Xach: i've already implemented thread pooling for request processing 12:32:56 troydm: If I were writing my own HTTP, I think I would write octets to the socket, and encode strings to octets as needed. 12:33:02 Xach: and I have code that parses GET requests with params 12:33:14 replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:33:14 troydm: there are several libraries for encoding strings like that. trivial-utf8 seems like a simple, fast one to use. 12:33:31 Xach: what about cl-unicode? 12:34:08 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:34:23 troydm: It was not my impression that cl-unicode did encoding and decoding of strings. 12:34:33 good morning 12:34:45 hi mvilleneuve 12:34:46 Xach: then what is it for? 12:35:02 troydm: the abstract on its page seems pretty clear to me. 12:35:15 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:35:28 troydm: if you're writing your own http you should have read the rfc and you should know by now that http is a binary protocol.. 12:35:54 You can use babel to convert characters to various binary encodings 12:36:15 pjb: what's the best way babel or trivial-utf8? 12:36:18 pjb: no. Restarted as in "I nuked the disk image and installed from scratch" 12:36:29 babel is able to deal with other encodings, not only utf-8. 12:36:43 -!- dfox [~dfox@2001:470:9d8f:0:4261:86ff:fe8e:8446] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:36:43 p_l: oh. 12:36:53 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:37:00 pjb: that won't be necessary so i think i'll try using trivial-utf8 12:40:43 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:5c0:1000:b::9eff] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:41:22 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:41:51 waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has joined #lisp 12:42:22 -!- waltwhite [~waltwhite@113-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 12:44:33 -!- waveman [~tim@124.170.43.134] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:45:30 when i use trivial-utf-8-read with usocket:socket-stream it complains that socket-stream is not binary input 12:45:38 how do i make socket stream a binary input? 12:46:58 -!- todun [~todun@pool-108-52-34-244.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: :q] 12:48:12 troydm: what if the client requests iso-8859-1 and can't accept utf-8 ? 12:48:42 pjb: i write this http for educational purpose :) 12:49:08 pjb: i'm not interested in requests that come in form of iso-8859-1 12:49:42 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.154.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:49:50 oudeis [~oudeis@222.126.197.129] has joined #lisp 12:50:27 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 12:54:36 I've found something very interesting http://is.gd/OLWpNe 12:55:01 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:55:15 so i basicly need to read-byte from socket-stream then push it to vector and only then read vector as utf-8 string 12:55:48 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.160.197] has joined #lisp 12:57:25 -!- felideon [~fdelgado@184.105.242.75] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 12:57:26 troydm: why use url shortener for that url? 12:57:43 it's actually not url shortener in this case, but url obfuscator 12:58:08 jdz: :) i have a plugin in my irc that basicly shortens all urls that i print automaticly 12:58:17 troydm: that's a bad plugin, then 12:58:23 jdz: why? 12:59:02 troydm: it's nice to get an idea of what is at the other end of the link without having to visit it. 12:59:21 troydm: because 1) people don't see where they will end up, and 2) searching this channel logs will never give the url if i only remember part of it 12:59:47 troydm: is something that reasonable people click on. is something that only some reasonable people with much free time would click on. 13:00:11 troydm: other reasons might be the total screwup of referer HTTP header value, but i'm not sure 13:02:54 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@222.126.197.129] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:03:06 ok i'll disable it 13:04:05 thanks jdz, akovalenko and Xach. I was about to make a similar comment. I'm glad to see that I'm not alone in my opinion on url shorteners 13:05:19 loke: there are senseless and long URLs at times, I'd be ok with shorteners for them (but I'd expect a one-liner explanation, at least, something more than "interesting thing" :) 13:05:32 vervic [~vervic@e215-155.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:06:29 is there any shorter function that to not equal (not (= a))? 13:06:35 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:39 like (!= )? 13:06:44 /= 13:06:44 G'morning all. 13:06:58 evening nyef 13:07:07 nyef: hi 13:07:26 dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-mzhelsawsiqlhcxl] has joined #lisp 13:07:47 nyef: been experimenting with ideas on how to get around your issues with paged memory in SBCL-OS :) 13:08:03 jdz: re the url shorteners, a lot of the channels i am in have some sort of official bot that fetches and prints the title of the page for this exact purpose 13:08:12 troydm: but note that (/= ..) is _not_ equivalent to (not (= ..)) for more than two arguments -- /= means "there are no equal pairs" 13:08:34 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:48 p_l: Remember, whatever you do, that you have to account for the GC code somehow. 13:09:44 SBCL-OS? 13:10:43 loke: A hacked, minimal SBCL core combined with a loader written in forth. Runs on a machine with no other OS, does interrupt handling in Lisp code, and so on. 13:11:01 nyef: That sounds pretty cool. Does it work? URL? 13:11:29 nyef: is there any memory tricks for the gc that you can do in kernel space that you can't in app space? 13:11:38 It works, for some values of "work". 13:12:10 dlowe: Sure. You basically get to DEFINE the app-space interface. 13:13:03 nyef: I'm considering doing a complete reworking of SBCL's GC as my 4th years honours project 13:13:22 p_l: Wow. That could be interesting. 13:13:50 My understanding is that SBCL only compiles code once. The VM can't recompile code as needed? Is this true? 13:14:02 loke: there's no VM 13:14:02 VM? 13:14:30 OK, the "environment", or something. I don't know which word to use. 13:14:51 nyef: I'm hoping to put Dis' concurrent GC to use, and possibly change how it's loaded 13:14:53 felideon [~felideon@184.105.242.75] has joined #lisp 13:14:59 loke: Mostly true. There are a few things (method dispatch functions come to mind) that the system will recompile as needed, but everything else is kept primarily as machine code. 13:15:05 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 13:15:09 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:28 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 13:15:31 Yeah, that's the other thing you can do with kernel memory-management games. Concurrent GC becomes much easier. 13:16:29 loke: runtime, maybe. 13:16:32 nyef: OK. I was just thinking about how SBCL works vs. the Java VM. For Lisp, I was thinking that if a function is defined and it can be inlined, it would be conceivable to recompile the functions that could inline it after the fact. In other words, you'd get inlining to work even if the inlined function is defined after the "parent" function. 13:16:58 -!- LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-162-20.umd.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:17:00 loke: It could be done, but it's a lot of bookkeeping that SBCL just doesn't do. 13:17:02 LiamH1 [~healy@wireless-206-196-162-20.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 13:17:25 loke: that's a lot of effort for a rather trivial bit of convenience 13:17:31 nyef: I see. Are there any lisps that can do this? (I suppose ABCL could, theoretically, given that it comples to the Java VM?) 13:19:09 -!- LiamH1 is now known as LiamH 13:19:10 loke: That is just hot spot optimisation. You could implement it in lisp as sun did in their JVM 13:19:12 loke: I find inlining generally dangerous in lisp 13:19:30 I suppose ABCL doesn't even need to do anything... 13:19:47 loke: Consider it as a cache-invalidation problem, where there can be an unbounded number of caches that contain some element, and you can't easily track the caches nor can you easily check that a cache contains an element. 13:19:48 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:20:07 p_l: Are macros similarly dangerous? 13:20:34 am0c [~am0c@211.217.183.10] has joined #lisp 13:20:40 (subst 'similarly 'much-more ...) 13:20:47 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:55 *(subst 'much-more 'similarly ...) 13:21:04 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:21:06 *nyef* winces. 13:21:16 nyef: I think less so, and they provide much more functionality 13:21:23 ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has joined #lisp 13:21:52 akovalenko: I just fixed that in the interrupt-handling path for building SBCL on OSX, thank you very much. 13:22:18 but inlining isn't much different from what is done in method caching using CLOS, is it? 13:22:22 *Xach* suddenly has the strong desire for the slime repl to honor ansi color escape sequences 13:22:54 Xach: what for? 13:23:54 spacefrogg: For the dispatch functions? It's not, except that the system actually has the cache-invalidation set up for those. 13:24:17 run sbcl in inferior-lisp with ansi-color-for-comint-mode-on 13:24:33 p_l: First obvious case, pretty output. Second obvious case, testing something that will eventually run in a terminal. 13:24:35 Xach: sounds great until your color starts bleeding out all over the place 13:25:06 p_l: i need to review a lot of log data and it would be nice to colorize it for display in the repl. 13:25:08 nyef: that I understand. But my preferred solution for the first one would be an extension to swank protocol 13:25:31 Xach: C-h f ansi-color-apply-on-region is a good place to start :) 13:25:35 dlowe: i will only wash with cold water 13:25:54 and possibly making slime-based buffer an easy to build interface 13:25:55 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:25:56 akovalenko: thanks 13:26:19 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has joined #lisp 13:26:19 -!- ngz [~user@201.144.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:26:50 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:26:50 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:27:05 nyef: as for the SBCL-OS, I actually wanted to leave SBCL out of ring 0 13:27:14 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has joined #lisp 13:27:27 -!- LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-162-20.umd.edu] has left #lisp 13:27:54 p_l: Have a look, there's something like two functions and a couple of assembly-routines that execute in ring 0, everything else is ring 3, and the IOPL is set to 3. 13:28:24 have a microkernel that can forward interrupt handling, a memory manager and possibly your forth thing extended to be DDT for the system :) 13:28:28 (and console monitor) 13:28:28 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:28:35 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:29:32 The one ring-0 function forwards most interrupts to a ring-3 handler that runs with interrupts disabled, and handles a couple of requests by itself (explicit task-switches, for example). 13:30:07 heh, there's unique opportunity for MWAIT-based bare metal futexes :) 13:30:54 ... I've probably got the sbcl-os stuff around here somewhere, I'm just not sure where. 13:31:05 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:31:09 I actually kinda want to play around with building up a lisp similar slightly to Erlang's OS 13:31:10 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has joined #lisp 13:31:23 nyef: on your webpage, perhaps? 13:31:33 xan_ [~xan@203.Red-79-151-118.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:38 Sure, but I mean an actual development tree. 13:32:46 I think it was pointed there as well 13:33:20 hmm... nope 13:33:52 nyef: so what? couldn't sbcl handle inlining just as method-combination? 13:34:01 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:34:15 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:34:42 spacefrogg: No, because general inlining requires tracking more than just all the methods of a generic function. 13:34:55 why? 13:35:09 or, what? 13:35:56 general inlining requires tracking dependencies, aka all the places that you call the inlined function, in case you recompile it 13:35:58 Method-combination operates solely in the context of a single generic-function. Whenever you need to invalidate the cache you already have your hands on that generic-function. 13:36:15 p_l: looked at termite scheme? 13:36:17 -!- gko [~gko@111.81.33.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:36:31 General inlining requires tracking WHO-CALLS information for each inlined function, plus keeping a copy of the source for each caller. 13:36:32 phrixos [~clarkema@unaffiliated/phrixos] has joined #lisp 13:37:03 dlowe: nope, but I do know of it. I wonder however, does it only have Erlang's concurrency model, or does it also have Erlang's operating environment? From what I recall, it was more of the first 13:37:28 gko [~gko@111.81.72.21] has joined #lisp 13:37:39 p_l: what, specifically, is so attractive about its operating environment? 13:37:45 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.28.90] has joined #lisp 13:38:09 todun [~todun@SEAS164.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 13:38:16 p_l: Okay, it seems I forgot a bit about how SBCL-OS works. There's a good chunk of ring-0 code in test.lisp that I had forgotten about, but it's all startup code. 13:38:45 p_l: In normal operation, the only ring-0 code is from interrupt-stubs.lisp and test.lisp / common-interrupt-handler. 13:39:04 but you needn't recompile functions you don't use. and if you use them you can recompile them before use. 13:39:20 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp3702.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:39:29 just like a hot spot optimiser 13:39:48 spacefrogg: You still need to track the source, which isn't cheap. 13:40:14 that can't be true because the JVM can obviously track that 13:40:17 dlowe: Erlang/OTP as a whole is essentially a microcoded computer with its own operating system (OTP) designed for distributed operation 13:40:17 p_l: And test.lisp / boot-kernel is the actual core entry point. The basic page-tables are set up by the forth code, and a small stack is available, but little else. 13:40:19 nyef: could keep the intermediate representation 13:40:28 spacefrogg: the JVM does track that 13:40:40 dlowe: Which is bulkier than the source representation, surprisingly enough. 13:40:41 p_l: How did you decide on dis' GC? Also, you might find this interesting: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/pnkfelix/thesis/ :) 13:40:42 that, I said 13:40:45 -!- redline6561_nop is now known as redline6561 13:40:54 spacefrogg: in fact, these days it decompiles the bytecode back into a parse tree 13:40:57 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 13:41:02 I know 13:41:14 I am argueing in favor of that for lisp. 13:41:24 spacefrogg: and that's why it's a piggy pile of shit 13:41:25 redline6561: Dis' gc is personally interesting to me, especially given its design goals 13:41:32 :D 13:41:49 Gotcha. 13:42:02 redline6561: also, explicit regions is something I want to play with 13:42:33 Sounds like an awesome honours project to me! :) 13:42:35 I can't believe "that's the way the JVM does it" is being used as a favorable argument for anything 13:42:47 cause I'd like to implement purified partial images that can be loaded with explicit "read-only" parts and no unloading 13:43:10 including "no swap" parts :) 13:43:29 sounds like the lisp equivalent of shared libs 13:43:39 ...to what end? I'm a bit slow at putting that together, unsure of implications/applications. Sounds like deployment benefits. 13:43:46 dlowe: Isn't the internal representation of sbcl-lisp capable of that tracking? 13:44:00 spacefrogg: a simple matter of programming 13:44:07 gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:41 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:44:49 oGMo: I want to actually get it to the point where I can mmap() shared files with code 13:44:50 a simple matter of programming and complete disregard for memory efficiency 13:45:01 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:45:18 -!- dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-mzhelsawsiqlhcxl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:45:20 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:45:25 p_l: it'd be neat 13:45:28 dlowe: I'm afraid I'm missing your point. Do you think runtime-inlining is feasable or not? 13:45:41 p_l: Wait, wait... you should be able to get most of that with some careful work on the fasl format. 13:46:00 i was typing 'i wish you could just do that with fasls' 13:46:26 -!- vervic [~vervic@e215-155.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Quit: vervic] 13:46:44 spacefrogg: it's not too easy to be sure in advance, and writing the whole thing just to give it a try is... hmm.. 13:47:33 dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-pyjqnjjqybrqqkkm] has joined #lisp 13:48:36 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 13:48:41 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 13:48:42 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 13:51:06 anyway, I had several ideas which I'd like to play with, and which would probably require deep mucking around in memory model first 13:51:16 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:51:17 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 13:52:32 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:52:40 so many ideas, so little time (and skill ^_-) 13:53:23 is there any reason to not call the libc malloc/calloc vs FOREIGN-ALLOC in cffi? 13:53:58 oGMo: depends on whether you intend for C side to call free() on it or not 13:54:24 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:54:49 p_l: but there's nothing to watch out for on the lisp side? i realized sbcl stopped spitting out "can't optimize: runtime allocation" warnings when i switched 13:54:53 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp3702.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:55:18 oGMo: I don't think there is, but I'm not authoritative source on that 13:55:35 i figure malloc has to work because the C side calls it, but not sure what magic the compiler might attempt 13:55:45 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:48 shouldn't attempt any 13:55:50 p_l: k 13:56:01 when in doubt, disassemble 13:56:15 good point 13:56:56 it would be kinda neat if there was the lisp-compiler-optimization equivalent of sql's "explain plan" 13:57:12 Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-63.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 13:57:38 -!- Kron is now known as Guest3802 13:57:42 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has left #lisp 13:58:34 oGMo: You could consider (setf sb-c::*compiler-trace-output* *standard-output*), but it gets a bit verbose and interpreting it takes some getting used to. Also might not tell you what you need to know. 13:58:49 oGMo: Or, if you're using COMPILE-FILE, there's a :trace-file argument. 13:58:59 jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 13:59:03 (All this applies only to SBCL, and maybe to CMUCL with some modification.) 13:59:42 *p_l* ponders if writing a new SBCL backend, that would actually generate bytecode, would give anything useful 14:00:08 p_l: Talk to foom, he's been looking at doing an LLVM backend. 14:00:44 nyef: I'm thinking of doing literal, classic bytecode thing, with small runtime with tight interpreting loop 14:01:10 er, weird, sb-c::*compiler-trace-output* didn't output for slime-compile-defun, but did for slime-eval-last-expression 14:01:34 also, funnily enough... there might be more chance for special-purpose OSes now than it was few years ago 14:01:35 oGMo: Check the *inferior-lisp* buffer? 14:01:47 nyef: that was my first thought but no it goes to the repl buffer 14:01:54 brb, have to go to practical and connect to power source 14:02:00 p_l: Largely due to the popularity of virtualization? 14:02:01 although it may have gone _after_ the prompt and was obscured 14:02:08 nyef: exactly 14:02:10 brb 14:02:12 vervic [~vervic@e215-155.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:02:44 -!- vervic [~vervic@e215-155.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Client Quit] 14:03:23 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS164.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: :s] 14:04:02 oGMo: that's because of it being run in a new thread, probably. Setting *standard-output* globally may help (and it won't probably hurt unless you disconnect SLIME) 14:05:16 oGMo: Feel free to use some other stream if you want. 14:05:41 -!- easyE [33dUWaIEgL@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:06:15 akovalenko: no it shows up fine, just not for C-c C-c in slime, oddly(?) 14:06:45 that was the point: C-c C-c may be different w.r.t. threads 14:06:57 fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9518865.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 14:07:04 ah 14:08:45 test__` [~user@88.227.117.142] has joined #lisp 14:09:31 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:10:36 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:10:36 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:10:38 oGMo: tested that, and (1) C-c C-c runs in a temporal worker thread, indeed, (2) C-x C-e in REPL runs in REPL thread, (3) C-x C-e in Lisp-mode buffer runs in a separate thread, so I'd expect the problem to reproduce there 14:10:45 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:10:59 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has joined #lisp 14:11:01 oGMo: (defun capture-thread () (load-time-value sb-thread:*current-thread*)) 14:11:14 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:11:18 but nice .. not sure if this has all the information but i'll have to play around with less trivial examples .. a bit more informative than just disassemble 14:11:28 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 14:11:47 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:11:55 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:12:38 jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:46 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp3702.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:12:46 akovalenko: thanks 14:13:16 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:25 Hey all, I just updated SBCL from 1.0.37, and I'm having some ASDF issues on projects that worked fine before. 14:13:44 Is there a FAQ or migration post somewhere on the ASDF update that happened in SBCL recently? 14:13:45 jmckitrick: might help to update the projects too. 14:13:50 todun [~todun@SEAS164.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 14:14:01 gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:04 jmckitrick: i don't think so, but a couple widely-used projects were affected, like cxml. 14:14:54 Hmm. I was hoping to avoid a complete upgrade, but that might be unavoidable. 14:14:56 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 14:14:57 ... 1.0.37 is what, a year and a quarter old? 14:15:16 Maybe a touch older? 14:15:18 Yeah, about. I had something that worked, and hadn't messed with it in a while. 14:15:33 jmckitrick: why avoid? 14:15:34 It's an app server that's down now. 14:15:41 aha 14:16:00 Well, the versions in Quicklisp should all work well together with the latest SBCL. 14:16:00 I used to update every release, but other non-CL projects have taken priority. 14:16:20 Maybe that's the best think to do... check the versions there, and upgrade each. 14:16:40 I'll also start with a simple project, and make sure it's not an ASDF issue itself. 14:16:47 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:16:48 jmckitrick: or just use (ql:quickload "my-app") and see if it works :) 14:16:55 Any reason why (defpackage #:foo) would break things? 14:17:01 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:17:15 BTW, does anyone here use sb-cover? 14:17:24 jmckitrick: i can't think of one re defpackage 14:17:50 nicdev_ [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:13 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-218.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:19:00 -!- sellout-1 [~Adium@12.232.236.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:19:07 I haven't messed with quicklisp at all. This app is on a linode in the ether somewhere, so I'd have to be sure the installation would go smoothly. I don't think I have the common lisp controller installed either. 14:19:09 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:19:30 quicklisp is pretty easy to try and easy to stop trying if it doesn't work. 14:19:32 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-218.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:19:42 a lack of common-lisp-controller is definitely an advantage 14:19:50 c_arenz [~arenz@dialin-212-144-135-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:14 jmckitrick: Your best bet is probably to put the old version of SBCL back up for now, and set up an updated system more locally. 14:21:21 tritchey [~tritchey@12.207.196.2] has joined #lisp 14:21:30 The common lisp controller I used and jettisoned, but a colleague decided to use it after I left the project. 14:21:48 QL seems to be the wave of the future, so I should probably just dive in and update. ;-) 14:22:01 is apply really fold in disguise? 14:22:09 Anyway, I'll work on it locally and see how it goes. 14:22:24 -!- test__` [~user@88.227.117.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:34 If anyone is interested, stassats and I worked on a slime-cover update for sb-cover that's up on github. 14:22:49 We need testers so it can be committed to both SBCL and slime. 14:22:54 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 14:23:01 djanatyn: i don't think so. maybe reduce? 14:23:03 ...or, wait 14:23:13 oh. 14:25:07 Ah. 14:25:27 I got confused, since I ran (apply #'+ '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)) 14:25:49 but then I realized that #'+ takes as many arguments as you like 14:26:01 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@12.207.196.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:26:26 and so does apply! 14:26:40 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:26:43 what do I have to do again to get full stack traces? 14:27:14 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp3702.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:27:17 something with optimizations 14:27:36 el-maxo: (optimize (debug 3)), maybe? 14:28:03 tritchey [~tritchey@12.207.196.2] has joined #lisp 14:28:11 yep thanks 14:28:17 should put that in my .sbclrc 14:28:36 -!- jmckitrick [~user@108-77-157-187.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:28:44 el-maxo: i like to compile individual functions with debug 3 instead, C-u C-c C-c does that. 14:28:45 is there a fold in lisp? 14:28:45 el-maxo: with emacs/slime you can compile with C-u C-c C-c or C-u C-c C-k 14:28:49 with an arcane name? 14:28:52 nyef: regarding sbcl on metal - I was thinking small microkernel core dealing with basic OS services and providing management console (and LDB), running on top of Xen/virtio/VMI 14:29:04 djanatyn: "fold" isn't arcane? 14:29:07 djanatyn: perhaps reduce does what you're thinking of. 14:29:10 hmm 14:29:28 I'm thinking of the haskell foldr and foldl 14:29:36 -!- xan_ [~xan@203.Red-79-151-118.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:29:39 What do they do? 14:29:55 and I said "arcane" because a lot of lisp functions are the same as other functions, but with different names 14:30:03 p_l: That could work, I suppose. 14:30:04 and since lisp came first, it's kind of arcane and mystical 14:30:33 djanatyn: too pejorative for my taste. 14:30:36 p_l: Actually, you could possibly do that in lisp, since you wouldn't need things like a compiler or CLOS or anything. 14:30:42 djanatyn: since lisp came first, it's the others who are arcane and mystical. 14:30:48 Oh. 14:31:44 xan_ [~xan@192.Red-79-157-76.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:20 nyef: now add the fact that quite a lot of new stuff means that you don't really need filesystem support outside something networked... 14:32:22 #'+ doesn't take as many argument as you like (and neither does apply). In CL, functions take at most call-arguments-limit arguments. 14:32:23 hmm 14:32:44 oudeis [~oudeis@222.126.197.129] has joined #lisp 14:32:48 drdo [~drdo@89-180-125-43.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 14:32:49 (there's quite good clojure startup that doesn't actually touch local storage, maybe during indexing o_O) 14:33:03 what do I have to enter in the repl exactly "for" (optimize (debug 3)) 14:33:37 (declaim (optimize (debug 3)) or (proclaim '(optimize (debug 3))) 14:33:59 whats the difference between declaim and proclaim? 14:34:10 p_l: Mmm. There's a possibility of some seriously-cool stuff there, I agree. 14:34:11 declaim is a macro, proclaim is a function. 14:34:14 djanatyn: foldl is reduce, foldr is reduce with :from-end t 14:34:19 el-maxo: macroexpand declaim for further details. 14:34:22 if only there was some kind of reference that could answer questions like that. 14:34:31 djanatyn: 'apply is foldr 14:34:34 el-maxo: if you using SBCL, you can also use (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy) 14:34:43 apply is apply. 14:34:47 spacefrogg: we just got through with that. 14:35:14 ok then. 14:35:18 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@dialin-212-144-135-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:35:22 Why would anybody use an implementation specific operator when there are TWO standard operators? 14:35:27 nyef: btw, VMware uses a filesystem that looks like straight out of IBM mainframe in their high-end products :) 14:36:38 pjb is correct 14:36:50 pjb: Because, when faced with a choice between two options, one strategy is to create a third option. 14:37:44 Is there any library supporting lightweight threads also supporting blocking operations? (similar to erlang) 14:37:53 el-maxo: in files, you would use declaim. 14:38:20 *nyef* has been known to use LOCALLY in some files. 14:38:58 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:40:42 *akovalenko* once had a blind spot about top-levelness of LOCALLY, and then got a very convenient surprise... 14:41:11 qizwiz [~user@64.244.149.252] has joined #lisp 14:41:44 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:34 -!- am0c [~am0c@211.217.183.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:43:06 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-235.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:44:31 okay, cool! 14:44:51 -!- gko [~gko@111.81.72.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:44:51 now I can start to do some serious functional programming in common lisp :) 14:45:17 are there any statically typed lisp dialects? 14:45:39 and no, I'm not sure what I mean by "statically typed" 14:45:39 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS164.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: :s] 14:46:03 djanatyn: All lisp dialects are statically typed. Unfortunately, that static type is quite often "anything". 14:46:12 gko [~gko@42-72-197-109.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:18 djanatyn: Qi/Shen ? 14:46:50 nyef: they are all strongly typed and dynamically typed 14:47:09 djanatyn: no CL 14:47:10 Mmm. Something like that. 14:47:22 i had to reorder display-debugger, debug-backtrace and std-form in clim-debugger to get rid of the style warning things.... 14:47:42 and after that i got another one, implicitly creating generic function expand-backtrace 14:47:44 (open "testfile" :direction :output :if-does-not-exists :create) is this correct? 14:47:52 only a method is defined but no gf 14:48:02 nyef: static typing means type checks before runtime 14:48:18 djanatyn: but because they are strongly typed you can always infer the type. that should be the feature you are looking for. but lisp doesn't help you with that very much. 14:48:23 troydm: it is correct syntax but not a common sight in real code. 14:48:27 homie: but it's all pointless. STYLE-WARNING means "look at this thing _again_", something you aren't supposed to do if you didn't even write that code :) 14:48:32 gensym```: And if the static type is "anything", then the type checks are extremely easy to optimize away. 14:48:34 troydm: oops, it is :if-does-not-exist, not ...exists 14:48:51 else it told me undefined function...., i took all the function defs to just after the defclass thing.... 14:49:03 djanatyn: and there is no pattern matching for you function arguments like in haskell 14:49:11 your* 14:49:30 nyef: you mean explicit/implicit typed 14:49:38 Xach: yea but it throws simple error sayit that file doesn't exists 14:50:06 troydm: ensure-directories-EXIST then :) 14:50:17 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:50:31 nyef: when the language dont type check before runtime, then it isnt statically typed 14:50:34 akovalenko: it would be disturbing never the less if my startup message list is crowded with such things..... 14:50:47 akovalenko: i mean the display 14:51:01 akovalenko: yup that's it 14:51:04 akovalenko: thx 14:51:08 homie: (locally (declare (optimize (SB-EXT:INHIBIT-WARNINGS 3)))) 14:51:18 oh 14:51:25 (locally (declare (optimize (SB-EXT:INHIBIT-WARNINGS 3))) ) 14:51:27 akovalenko: it's that i've started sbcl from slime 14:51:48 akovalenko: and apparently it's working directory is in home catalogue 14:51:51 gensym```: And my argument is that the pre-runtime type-checks are trivial to optimize out under certain circumstances. 14:52:04 troydm: ,cd and ,pwd and other SLIME-REPL extension stuff 14:52:18 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9518865.virtua.com.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:03 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:53:31 troydm: I hope that you learn from the fact that you posted (open "testfile" ...) here, i.e. something where that scenario is almost impossible :-/ pasting real code to is better! 14:54:27 Xach: hey, you there? 14:55:30 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 14:55:57 Dodek: hi 14:56:57 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:57:53 Glad to be able to answer that tricky question. 14:58:24 Xach: but you didn't! Are you *there* indeed? 14:58:40 *Xach* panics, leaves 14:58:44 ... "no matter where you go, there you are"? 14:59:01 "panda eats [,] shoots and leaves" 14:59:26 is there any opencv like package for common lisp? 15:00:22 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has joined #lisp 15:01:37 Posterdati: there was some abandoned CFFI thing for opencv 15:02:03 p_l: do you mean cl-opencv? 15:02:03 there's also some awesome lisp-based computer vision stuff, but might require some work to interface it with modern OS 15:02:27 fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9518865.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 15:03:53 achristianson [~achristia@152.179.75.170] has joined #lisp 15:03:59 p_l: anything loadable with quicklisp? 15:04:19 -!- achristianson [~achristia@152.179.75.170] has left #lisp 15:04:21 don't think so 15:05:00 :( 15:05:34 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:50 cheezus [~Adium@bas2-toronto36-1177696336.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:10:07 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-deallqozijsobvqz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:10:32 -!- harovali [~harovali@r190-64-99-240.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:10:41 cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.245.228] has joined #lisp 15:10:55 drdo` [~drdo@89-180-183-121.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 15:11:59 -!- Amyn [~abennama@64.208.49.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:12:41 -!- drdo [~drdo@89-180-125-43.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:14:18 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.79] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 15:15:20 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:16:46 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 15:18:02 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.160.197] has left #lisp 15:19:39 -!- Guest3802 [~Kron@129-97-120-63.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:20:09 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:21:41 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:51 -!- maxm- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:22:05 cl-blapack exports functions named %xyz. Shall I use them or shall I avoid them??? 15:22:26 are they documented? 15:22:34 nikodemus: hi 15:22:54 does anyone know if there's a cl-v4l2 documentation? 15:23:16 Quaydon [~robert@cpe-071-068-114-143.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:26:18 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.79] has joined #lisp 15:26:19 harovali [~harovali@r190-134-178-121.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:28:57 Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has joined #lisp 15:29:31 It's a CFFI, so I'm reading the original library documentation. It seems from the example, they're to be used. Wonder why they're named with a %... 15:30:18 Posterdati: I guess you have the same problem as me, check the documentation of the original v4l2 library. http://v4l2spec.bytesex.org/ 15:33:04 Xach: so, i wanted to quicklisp a library which uses a C library via CFFI (or maybe UFFI) 15:33:19 Joreji [~thomas@78-058.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:33:27 Xach: but the actual .so is a linker script and not a library 15:34:09 Xach: so it has no success in loading it 15:34:19 Xach: is it quicklisp issue or sbcl one? 15:34:21 Dodek: CFFI vs. UFFI is important (does it involve compiling something intermediat with GCC?) 15:34:39 akovalenko: no, it just tries to load /usr/lib64/libncurses.so 15:34:47 (the actual library is cl-ncurses) 15:35:18 Dodek: I think the linker should be able to load linker scripts... 15:35:31 Dodek: then find a real one (things ending with .so.N and .so.N.M are normally what you really want to load) 15:35:38 pjb: he's wrong, it's a placeholder, not a linker script 15:35:53 H4ns [57a9ef45@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.169.239.69] has joined #lisp 15:35:54 Dodek: i had to fix this yesterday, there's something you can set before loading it, but it might not work permanently .. sec 15:36:29 Dodek: actually, the content of that *ncurses.so should give you an idea of the real library name. 15:36:44 akovalenko: i know perfectly well where to find a real library 15:36:56 akovalenko: the thing is, i should not need to do it. 15:37:03 maxm- [~user@p84-72.acedsl.com] has joined #lisp 15:37:05 Dodek: then you can (1) preload it manually (sb-alien:load-shared-object w/sbcl) 15:37:24 or (2) grep the library source for "ncurses" and fix it 15:37:33 sellout- [~Adium@conference/djangocon/x-fqoqfrsxschuzfct] has joined #lisp 15:37:42 akovalenko: but it's not a solution in my opinion 15:37:47 it should be reported to library maintainers :) 15:38:22 (defvar cl-ncurses::*ncurses-search-path* '("/lib")) or whatnot before loading if you need to load it 15:38:23 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:38:24 akovalenko: the actual library file is just .so.5 15:38:29 instead of .so 15:38:42 Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-63.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 15:39:07 Dodek: did you actually look at the file? what dist is this? 15:39:08 -!- Kron is now known as Guest78230 15:39:18 oGMo: it's gentoo 15:39:22 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:29 OUTPUT_FORMAT ( elf64-x86-64 ) 15:39:29 GROUP ( /lib64/libncurses.so.5 ) 15:39:49 Dodek: right, that's not a valid file, it's a placeholder, set the above to "/lib64" and it'll load 15:39:54 read the comment :p 15:40:44 Dodek: this bad practice is, unfortunately, very common among CFFI users, and it seems to work most of the time, so people can never get the idea they're doing it wrong. 15:40:52 the default search paths in the library need reordered, because it finds the wrong file first 15:41:20 oGMo: but you see, if this is a linker script and ld is perfectly fine with it, then (U|C)FFI should also be able to deal with it 15:41:49 -!- pon1980 [~pon@h195n2-haes-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:41:50 i don't think CFFI uses ld 15:42:06 Dodek: LD is a _development_ tool (and .so is part of development environment). CFFI should have nothing to do with this stuff. 15:42:07 pjb: v4l2 has got a doc for c/c++ programming not for Licp 15:42:10 pjb: v4l2 has got a doc for c/c++ programming not for Lisp 15:42:34 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:42:48 there could be any number of funky distro/platform-specific scripts .. CFFI shouldn't have to know about any of them 15:43:11 oGMo: it has to use ld. Otherwise it couldn't load any .so on linux 15:43:21 p_l: ld-linux.so is not ld. 15:43:24 p_l: er? 15:43:42 well, there's question of which ld was involved then 15:44:09 p_l: there is only one LD, and some ld-linux.so.*'s :) 15:44:19 the linker script in place of .so suggests to me that there's a way that ld.so can interpret them 15:44:26 -!- lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:29 or it's supported by ldconfig 15:44:30 p_l: no, that's wrong 15:44:56 it should just be able to dlopen a file 15:45:08 elliottc1ble [~me@ell.io] has joined #lisp 15:45:18 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:46:03 (declaim (unmuffle-conditions style-warning)) has no effect here in my .sbclrc 15:46:08 hmmm... I wonder if there's some way to get ld.so to search for the library for you 15:46:42 if i try to proclaim instead i get the error that the symbol is not external in the corresp. package 15:46:45 homie: "As with other defining macros, it is unspecified whether or not the compile-time side-effects of a declaim persist after the file has been compiled." 15:46:49 p_l: for real libraries like *.so.N.M, the *.so.N part is called "soname". It's supposed to be a major version, within which ABI compatibility is preserved. When LD has to link against the shared library, it looks up *.so (that could be a script like the above, or a symlink to real library), then it stores the library SONAME into elf... 15:47:20 dlopen actually handles all of the searching, at least on linux .. sbcl at least uses this, i can't imagine why you wouldn't 15:47:20 akovalenko: yeah, I know 15:47:25 on windows or other platforms, i don't know 15:48:00 -!- gko [~gko@42-72-197-109.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:48:01 ld-linux.so, otoh, is not capable to interpret LD scripts ('cause it's not LD, dammit). It loads _elf_ object by its _soname_, that's it. No scripts, no intellect... 15:48:07 yeah, dlopen() consults ld.so.cache 15:48:29 akovalenko: just found out what I was missing 15:48:42 -!- elliottc1ble [~me@ell.io] has quit [Client Quit] 15:48:45 Posterdati: yes, that's what I mean. You need to read the C/C++ documentation to learn how to use the CFFI to that library. 15:48:46 -!- brandelune_ [~suzume@pl316.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune_] 15:49:02 -!- sellout- [~Adium@conference/djangocon/x-fqoqfrsxschuzfct] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:49:02 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:49:13 pjb: :( 15:49:28 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:40 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:49:49 With CFFI you are Calling Foreign Functions, so you need to know how to call them... 15:51:11 ok 15:51:42 pjb: how? 15:51:55 By reading the documentation of the foreign library. 15:52:18 cffi? 15:52:23 No, v4l2. 15:52:51 ok 15:53:00 It may help to read the doc of cffi too, to see how foreign functions are mapped into lisp functions. 15:53:06 there will be function with same names and functionality 15:53:11 Yes. 15:53:27 same parameters and returning values 15:53:39 like gsll 15:54:15 Most of the time, cffi libraries will apply a systematic mapping, so there's a simple rule to map the various kinds of parameters. 15:54:38 But sometimes there are exceptions. Perhaps a char* wasn't a string, but was really an output char parameter... 15:55:27 S1am [~guest@eth-209.20-homell.natm.ru] has joined #lisp 15:55:32 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:58:00 dlowe: does that mean i have to use something like eval-when ? 15:58:36 homie: (1) no, it doesn't, (2) that won't help anyway 16:00:01 homie: what's unspecified here is whether one file's "(declaim ...)" affects subsequent files (those that don't start with fully-overriding declaim, obviously) 16:00:12 -!- akahl [e-user@nat/nokia/x-pxtkvqekrrbyaozr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:00:12 -!- e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-pifzkxerauafcjaf] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:00:44 sellout- [~Adium@conference/djangocon/x-popqctmyyqrbrejn] has joined #lisp 16:02:01 LiamH [~healy@132.250.247.186] has joined #lisp 16:08:47 am0c [~am0c@110.12.29.229] has joined #lisp 16:09:45 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:10:15 akovalenko: ok what's the correct way of disabling some of the warnings then ? 16:10:23 -!- xan_ [~xan@192.Red-79-157-76.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:10:29 akovalenko: say style-warnings 16:11:19 c_arenz [~arenz@dialin-212-144-134-225.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:55 akovalenko: right at the start of the interpreter i mean..... 16:12:16 homie: sb-ext:*muffled-warnings* 16:12:17 -!- akovalenko [~anton@95.72.96.201] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:12:54 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@12.207.196.2] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 16:13:06 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 16:14:10 it shows me only sb-kernel:uninteresting-redefinition 16:14:38 homie: and some reading comprehension. 16:14:57 homie: so push your unwanted warnings onto that list 16:15:01 -!- yates [~yates@cpe-72-190-94-182.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:15:12 -!- pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:15:25 pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 16:15:44 oh i can override it in my .sbclrc ok, i got it 16:15:49 thank you 16:18:37 akovalenko [~anton@95.72.96.201] has joined #lisp 16:18:43 -!- LiamH [~healy@132.250.247.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:19:26 homie: (LOCALLY (DECLARE (SB-EXT:MUFFLE-CONDITIONS STYLE-WARNING ...))) 16:19:28 drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has joined #lisp 16:20:23 -!- drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:21:22 drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has joined #lisp 16:21:22 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-243-79.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 16:22:31 akovalenko: he explicitly doesn't want it locally 16:23:10 first, secondly i want to disable not enable 16:23:20 muffling is enabling the warnings 16:23:25 homie: wrong. 16:23:43 really ? 16:23:55 ok 16:24:00 homie: really. And anyway, sb-ext:unmuffle-conditions should have the opposite effect to whatever muffle does :) 16:24:34 homie: SBCL manual, section 4.1.4 16:24:40 * section 4.1.1 16:24:45 wait, muffle did not have any effect i'll try unmuffle, but i think i'll get errors, due to unmuffling only possible with previously muffled things 16:25:56 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 16:26:27 -!- drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:27:36 homie: "unmuffling only possible..." part is wrong too. 16:28:27 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:29:21 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:31:30 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-2925099342.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:32:05 akovalenko: ok got it i forgot the ** muffles around the symbol before, that's why it wouldn't take effect, thank you, i see no style-warnings anymore 16:34:32 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9518865.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:34:42 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:35:33 fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9518865.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 16:36:31 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-159-125.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:37:52 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 16:38:02 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.176.214.152] has joined #lisp 16:38:29 tritchey [~tritchey@108.60.121.114] has joined #lisp 16:39:03 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@dialin-212-144-134-225.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection refused] 16:39:21 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 16:39:49 ** are usually called "muffs", not "muffles" 16:40:03 ah, oh man....sorry ear muffs i meant 16:40:24 -!- nha_ [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:41:02 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-193-219.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:41:12 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:42:12 morphism [~Nevermind@123.16.98.214] has joined #lisp 16:42:31 hi 16:42:58 I"m compiling lisp500.c by DevCpp but got error at 259 : sprintf 16:43:04 anyone encounter this ? 16:43:07 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:38 I don't know that anyone actually uses lisp500 for anything. 16:43:39 sprintf(r + 2, "g%3.3d", gensymc++); it's said that "1st arg is incompatible pointer type" 16:43:53 I'm just want to see if this work 16:43:56 * I 16:43:58 morphism: the answer: no 16:44:07 Well, what is r in that context? 16:44:30 lval *r = ms0(f, 4); r[1] = 4; 16:44:37 this, I think =.= 16:45:14 ok ... seem like I should look at SBCL src code or CCL rather than this 16:45:17 Hrm... Make it (char *)(r + 2) in the sprintf call, and see if it works? 16:45:24 for example i have asdf definition of my package in file mypack.asdf 16:45:34 nyef let me try 16:45:34 in current dir 16:45:39 how do i load it ? 16:45:47 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-243-98.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:55 morphism: I just checked it out of SVN, and there is that (char*) already :) 16:46:02 doing (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'mypack) says package not found 16:46:19 try :mypack 16:46:32 or "MYPACK" 16:46:38 homie: don't give random suggestions. 16:46:40 troydm: (let ((asdf:*central-registry* '(#P"/my/dir/"))) (asdf:find-system :mypack)) 16:46:48 troydm: then load. 16:47:08 if it's package not found, chances are you might not have asdf loaded. We don't know until we see the whole error message. 16:47:11 akovalenko: can i add current working dir? 16:47:15 troydm: the file should not have .asdf as a suffix, but .asd, for starters. 16:47:15 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:47:44 troydm: you can add the default directory with (pushnew '*default-pathname-defaults* asdf:*central-registry*) 16:48:03 troydm: also, (asdf:load-system 'mypack) is less verbose 16:48:07 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:48:10 Xach: truename *dpd* first? (: 16:48:13 troydm: "current working dir" is the unix thing, or CL:*DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS*? you can add either, but for starters, just try typing it by hand or copy/paste.. 16:48:16 antifuchs: no. 16:48:25 antifuchs: the quote is important. 16:48:45 akovanlenko, oh man, you again :D 16:49:11 I'm spelled differently :-E 16:49:13 akovalenko, actually, I don't know why in my downloaded src code there is no (char*) 16:49:22 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@187.193.245.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:49:37 drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has joined #lisp 16:49:39 morphism: actually, I suspect they've committed it to SVN, but not released yet. 16:49:47 Xach: ahhhh, nice 16:49:51 it's running ... 16:49:55 68 kb 16:50:02 Xach: couldn't make that out at first. yeah, that makes sense. 16:50:07 morphism: heh 16:50:14 quite nice with defmacro and basic function :P wonder if it can load quicklisp too 16:50:25 morphism: lisp500 is a joke that went too far. I'm pretty sure it can't load quicklisp 16:50:32 but it has a MOP, so that's cool 16:50:36 antifuchs: I've been stripping down hunchentoot until the bolts are showing. 16:50:45 antifuchs: why it's a joke ? 16:51:08 antifuchs, lacking support library , perhaps ? 16:51:31 well, 11271 bytes would be taken by symbol names in CL (for 8-bit chars).. 16:51:31 morphism: Literally, it was intended more as a show piece than as a serious implementation. 16:51:52 morphism: it started out as a joke and grew to be a fun toy 16:52:18 antifuchs: hang on, is lisp500 a CL or just a Lisp? 16:52:19 akovalenko: Should be able to use six-bit chars. Seven if you simply *must* support the full standard character set. 16:52:22 but yeah, show piece. nice demo. plus, check out http://code.google.com/p/lisp5000/ 16:52:36 gigamonkey: it's just a lisp with some cl semantics 16:52:47 antifuchs I tried that, and compiling w/ DevCPP gave me some error 16:53:09 and what's MOP ? 16:53:19 a meta-object protocol 16:53:34 meta object protocol. Or maintenance operations protocol ;) 16:53:35 a way to define an OOP layer using the terms of that same OOP layer (: 16:53:35 I'm just looking around to see if I should make a simple Lisp on .NET to intergrate inside my app 16:54:00 you might be interested in http://weitz.de/rdnzl/ 16:54:02 antifuchs, meanwhile it can make class and objects ? 16:54:11 AFAICT, that has been used in a commercial context 16:54:23 antifuchs I knew rdnzl , it is quite like a translator 16:54:29 morphism: Have a look at clojure and similar systems. Clojure at least used to have a .NET version. 16:54:39 using a MOP, you can change how object orientation works (-: 16:54:51 they dumped .net a while ago /-: 16:55:04 Yes, but that could at least be a starting point. 16:55:08 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 16:55:09 I want to take use of token, parser and simple rule to make my .NET talk with SBCL via proxy 16:55:13 They use source control, right? 16:55:18 ( local host actually ) 16:55:28 nyef: yeah, point is that support for it is likely to be as nonexistent as for lisp500 (: 16:55:31 antifuchs: what do you mean dumped? 16:55:42 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:55:51 p_l: dropped, ceased activity on it? 16:56:04 If you just want your .net app to talk to SBCL, you might look at SLIME and the SWANK protocol it implements. 16:56:28 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has joined #lisp 16:56:46 *p_l* lost some context. again 16:56:51 -!- phrixos [~clarkema@unaffiliated/phrixos] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:57:07 in asd i specify package :components ((:file "first") (:file "second")) 16:57:11 p_l: Talking about clojure on .net. 16:57:16 but this makes things problematic 16:57:23 nyef, but buffer processing still a need inside my App on .NET 16:57:25 since it tries to compile first 16:57:27 nyef: ah 16:57:31 which depends on second 16:57:46 how do i specify order in which asdf should compile package? 16:57:51 *nyef* goes looking for food. 16:58:20 troydm: usually you add :serial t, which means start with the first one listed and proceed in order. 16:58:35 Xach: i have that one specified 16:58:56 troydm: so arrange it so that they are in the correct order. 16:58:59 troydm: but if first depends on second, you should swap them :) 16:59:04 wildnux [~wildnux@pool-96-226-69-239.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:18 troydm: make sure that if file a depends on file b, b precedes a in the list. 16:59:31 troydm: if there are mutual dependencies, rearrange your code to eliminate them. 17:00:04 I have a build and a src directory now. Macros and inline functions go in build/, everything else in src/, and the src module in asdf depends on the build module 17:00:05 -!- sellout- [~Adium@conference/djangocon/x-popqctmyyqrbrejn] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:00:09 troydm: and functions-just-calling-functions don't make (mutual) dependencies: forward references are valid. 17:00:16 ngz [~user@132.23.86.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:19 Xach: ok thx had invalid pacakge specification 17:00:30 doritos [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:44 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9518865.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:01:18 I really like a lisp implement on assembly like this forth impl on asm http://bit.ly/tbfxUe 17:02:12 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 17:03:01 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:03:39 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-058.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:04:01 -!- drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:04:38 drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has joined #lisp 17:04:44 anyone ? 17:04:45 ppl might have seen this but if not, it's pretty interesting! the 17:04:45 examples he uses are in scheme tho http://www.infoq.com/presentations/We-Really-Dont-Know-How-To-Compute 17:07:08 morphism: what's the question? Me too implemented forth in assembly. Twice. Some parts of SBCL are written in lispy assembly, btw, isn't it even cooler? 17:07:29 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:07:34 jsarrel [~jsarrel@66-191-161-122.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:05 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:14 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.153.125.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Quit: New kernel.] 17:09:30 fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9518027.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 17:10:04 akovalenko, but making a whole new one in asm is more interesting to me 17:10:20 :( ok, or at least I can see how 17:12:57 Really, the language to use to implement lisp is lisp. From there, use a bit of assembly and whatever other glue you need to provide primitive operations, OS support, whatever. 17:13:29 Any lisp-2 can be considered (with enough library code) a subset of CL. Even a lisp-1 (but with more considerable library code) could. 17:13:46 :-? 17:14:10 See http://paste.lisp.org/display/122296 17:14:11 morphism: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 17:14:31 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 17:14:37 -!- drdo` [~drdo@89-180-183-121.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:14:55 -!- allandee [~allandee@212.45.113.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:16:21 drdo` [~drdo@89.180.126.18] has joined #lisp 17:16:54 -!- ngz [~user@132.23.86.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:17:16 morphism: using assembler you would just write the most basic functions (and perhaps a primitive lisp reader), and then implement the rest of lisp with this primitive lisp. 17:17:40 xan_ [~xan@30.Red-79-150-223.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:07 So, if you started with gas, I guess you'd be coding in assembler the first day, and the rest of the month would be spent writing lisp sexps. 17:18:33 pjb-, yep. Just my curiosity 17:18:53 morphism: you could as well start in lisp the first day, writing a lap assembler. 17:18:54 is there standart function to output formatted timestamp? 17:18:58 it would be easier for my to do this in F# 17:19:00 -!- Younder [~john@49.157.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:19:30 troydm: IIRC, there's something in then localtime library 17:19:33 -!- H4ns [57a9ef45@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.169.239.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:19:37 s/then localtime/the local-time/ 17:19:51 pbj- what is needed for a Common Lisp implementation to load quicklisp ? 17:19:57 troydm: ~/iso:8601/ 17:20:18 ( Just in case I will try to load on a .NET impl one ) 17:20:22 morphism: ask Xah, I didn't read quicklisp sources. But I'd guess most of CL. 17:20:52 Xah? 17:21:02 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 17:21:02 Oh no! Sorry, Xach! 17:21:11 :-/ 17:21:14 no problem, Pascal *Costanza* 17:21:25 if it's possible, I will try to make it be able to load other CL impl library to avoid making again 17:21:53 morphism: if you want to make a real implementation, just write it in Common Lisp with any CL implementation you like, writting a cross compiler. 17:21:59 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:22:18 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:22:33 pjb- , oh no.. I don't want to make a CL impl , I want it on .NET @.@ 17:22:49 ( I mean not really for fun ) 17:23:08 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #lisp 17:23:12 morphism: you'd be a Xach-level hero if you wrote a working CL implementation targetting .NET. 17:23:14 Xach, Can I ask what I will need for a CL impl to load quicklisp ? 17:23:37 *pjb-* would be interested to, for emacs-cl ;-) 17:23:38 pjb-, isn't there Yarr ? 17:23:51 It's not a CL implementation. 17:24:01 *morphism* just don't like how it change things 17:24:15 and it would be more simple to make one in F# :P 17:24:24 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:24:24 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:47 pjb-, is it that hard ? 17:25:17 morphism: defun, defmacro, defclass, defgeneric, defmethod, deftype, define-condition, format, loop. networking, filesystem stuff. speed. 17:25:22 gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:34 *morphism* think he isn't smart enough to accomplish any herotic missions such Xach did 17:25:51 morphism: doing it would make you smart enough. 17:25:55 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-253.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:26:30 Fortunately I am no smart hero, I just like writing CL stuff. 17:26:44 It is not very difficult. If it was, I couldn't do it. 17:26:46 pjb-, you know, I always see myself as a "Half-baked" cake @.@ when I knew everything with just little thing of each 17:27:06 Xach, networking and filesystem ? 17:27:20 What API do you use for networking? 17:27:25 s/API/library/ 17:27:37 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:42 Xach anything else ? Because those above things are basic function that I have to do 17:28:08 allandee [~allandee@212.45.113.84] has joined #lisp 17:28:16 morphism: no, that's it, should take you an afternoon at most. 17:28:25 oh.. and defclass and defgeneric... I am not sure if .NET OOP could be as CL 17:28:27 drwho [~drwhen@c-68-80-157-110.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:38 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-041-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:41 Who knows, maybe it's exactly the same thing and can just be re-used. 17:29:03 *morphism* must learn more about .NET Reflection and Emit 17:29:10 morphism: probably not, you'll have to implement CLOS. Fortunately, there's PCL. 17:29:24 pjb-, is it open-src ? 17:29:29 Yes. 17:29:40 http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/lang/lisp/oop/clos/pcl/0.html 17:30:55 morphism: and serriously, I think you could take ccl and make for it a .NET backend. 17:31:12 So you would only have to implement the low level stuff and compiler backend. 17:33:59 you mean ccl library ? 17:34:10 if that, I would like to :P 17:34:17 sellout- [~Adium@conference/djangocon/x-solwvmwwwtzzogqb] has joined #lisp 17:34:59 Ok, let's see if I can make this real. My target is making a CL that can compile executable app 17:35:15 ... and be able to interact w/ .NET such Yarr did 17:36:03 and then a small plugin like leppie did with his iron scheme to turn VS into a CL Dev environment 17:36:30 .... such a nice dream 17:36:38 Why? 17:37:30 to take use of .NET huge API and lots of Library on Window 17:37:48 What will you make when your dream comes true? 17:38:05 continue my A.I. development on it 17:38:19 When your development is done, what will be the result? 17:38:19 ( Sound silly ? ) 17:38:36 an A.I. , ofcause 17:38:42 For what? 17:39:21 Starcràt 17:39:26 Starcraft 17:39:37 it's just my 1st phase 17:40:02 but if you think it's too much 17:40:16 then... this is for fun, and I can understand more about how CL is made 17:40:16 :P 17:40:19 that's all 17:40:31 Hrm... the Corman Lisp forums seem to have been overrun with spam lately. Sad. 17:40:31 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:40:50 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:41:21 pinterface, ? 17:41:31 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 17:42:01 drdo`` [~drdo@89.180.179.249] has joined #lisp 17:42:37 =.= oh... what are you thinking, Xach, pjb- ? 17:42:57 morphism: I think you are crazy, or maybe naive, or maybe both. 17:43:14 morphism: Sorry, talk of .NET made me think of Corman Common Lisp, so I went checking up on it. 17:43:46 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:44:08 -!- drdo` [~drdo@89.180.126.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:44:11 pinterface, but that serve CL impl reason =| 17:44:50 Xach, oh... =.= you can still stop me when possible 17:45:00 Xach, Why ? ( again ) 17:45:26 morphism: use linux then 17:45:42 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:50 morphism: don't spend your time in .NET or like that 17:46:12 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:46:44 Posterdati, I would like to, but sadly, most of my future jobs will relate to window =( 17:46:50 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 17:47:15 and lots more things too. On Linux, there surely no need a new CL impl 17:47:45 open source is much alive than proprietary technologies 17:48:19 take sbcl, quicklisp or gsll to name few 17:48:35 are there proprietary counterparts? 17:48:42 Posterdati, yay, that's what I am using on Linux too 17:49:06 morphism: I'm thinking that ccl sources cleanly separate lower levels from higher levels, so I'd expect one should be able to write a .NET backend for it rather easily. 17:49:22 I think that Lisp is freedom in the Land of Freedom 17:49:25 heck, I don't like Microsoft domination too =.= But that's life. 17:49:30 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:49:43 pbj, did you try making one ? 17:49:52 I'm no Windows programmer. 17:49:53 morphism: why do you want to run on .NET/CLR, why not JVM for that matter? 17:50:09 There are already implementations on JVM. 17:50:14 felideon, you know, I don't like Java much 17:50:16 I'm not talking about domination or market, simply open source has got a wider sight 17:50:32 Besides. I hear the CLR is a nicer processor for Lisp than the JVM. 17:50:48 Interesting. 17:50:50 Qett [~Qett@ip-178.61.99.216.dsl-cust.ca.inter.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:59 Posterdati, .... yes 17:51:36 well .NET can do TCO 17:51:52 Do I recall correctly that the .NET GC was originally written in Lisp and then ported over? 17:51:52 and there is Mono 17:51:57 Sysop_fb [~bleh@108-66-160-34.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:00 pjb: if there is a .NET CL , would you ever be on window ? 17:52:07 j_king, exactly 17:52:20 morphism: Not me, but my programs ;-) 17:52:34 I only recently started becoming interested in MS tech after reading some stuff on F# 17:52:36 pjb nice :D 17:52:59 j_king, that's what I'm intending to use for the next CL impl 17:53:00 pjb: you're a windows programmer! Tell us the truth 17:53:00 nyef: prototyped in CL, iirc. 17:53:08 I'm not. 17:53:17 I work on Linux and MacOSX/iOS 17:53:31 j_king, it's my favor language on .NET too 17:53:49 morphism: cool. it'd be interesting to see a CL on .NET 17:53:51 Mono performance isn't quite goo 17:53:55 d 17:54:12 mono would be ideal for cross-platformness 17:54:23 j_king, F# would be a wise choice for this ;) 17:54:40 j_king I wish its performance could be just as JVM =( 17:54:43 Would I be wrong to assume that a ".NET backend" would be writen in CIL? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Intermediate_Language 17:54:52 but now even on window, it's quite slooooow 17:55:00 morphism: in time I'm sure. oracle is doing a good job of screwing java/jvm 17:55:04 felideon, not really 17:55:31 .NET has libraries for this so we don't need to deal with real CIL 17:55:37 morphism: in our era, writing a language X in Y is not a wise choice, because only programmers knowing and interested in both X and Y can participate. If you write Lisp in Lisp, all Lispers can help. 17:56:18 pjb the reason I don't do Lisp in Lisp because there already are too many Lisp 17:56:25 phrixos [~clarkema@adsl-83-100-198-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #lisp 17:56:30 Not on .NET. 17:56:43 .... 17:56:44 morphism: build the lisp in Qi and implement shen in .net. 17:57:14 hmm...pjb, you mean Lisp in Lisp but on .NET ? 17:57:17 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9518027.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:57:30 Yes. 17:57:40 Even CL in CL targetting .NET. 17:57:53 morphism: use Linux + sbcl and don't bother you'll do a great job 17:58:09 aeshtaer [~Glossina@71-214-101-79.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:41 sound like when the low-level on .NET is done, the rest of things could be you guys works :P 17:59:10 Qett_ [~Qett@ip-169.62.99.216.dsl-cust.ca.inter.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:31 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:59:45 morphism: it's already done, in each implementation. That's why I advise you to start with ccl. 18:00:05 =( ok , I got one. 18:00:07 heck 18:00:14 clisp is written in C, it's harder to hack. (But you could have a look at the compiler in clisp which is written in lisp and which targets a VM). 18:00:14 but some parts like Threading... 18:00:28 sbcl is written in CL, but I find its sources harder to read and understand than those of ccl. 18:00:46 abcl is written part in lisp part in java and targets JVM. I'm not sure it would help you. 18:00:48 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:01:19 ecl and gcl generate C code instead of assembler. You could use them to hack something with a C->.NET compiler, but it wouldn't be too nice. 18:01:19 I used CCL a lot but haven't looked at its src code 18:01:21 -!- Qett_ [~Qett@ip-169.62.99.216.dsl-cust.ca.inter.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:01:38 -!- Qett [~Qett@ip-178.61.99.216.dsl-cust.ca.inter.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:01:51 I'm a bit worry about threading 18:02:15 morphism: svn co http://svn.clozure.com/publicsvn/openmcl/release/1.7/linuxx86/ccl ccl-1.7-linuxx86 18:02:31 pjb: Is there anything in particular about the SBCL source that makes it hard to understand? 18:03:08 nyef: It's not that it's hard, it's ccl is easier (closer to my expectations). 18:03:20 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 18:03:28 Okay, so how does SBCL not fit your expectations? 18:03:32 morphism: you should worry about treasons 18:03:33 otherwise I didn't spend enough time on either to have a really strong opinion. 18:04:07 Qett [~Qett@ip-169.62.99.216.dsl-cust.ca.inter.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:13 -!- nurv101 [~nurv101@2001:690:2100:2:4687:fcff:fe91:9c05] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:21 nyef: perhaps sbcl implementation is more sophisticated and I'm a naive implementer? 18:04:43 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:05:00 I've got an emacs/slime/swank question ... let's say that I'm inspecting a frame in the SLDB, and there's a gensym in it. 18:05:20 Now there's inspect-in-frame, which IIRC can take an arbitrary expression ... 18:05:23 pjb: That's an excuse. What were you expecting that SBCL didn't do? What were you not expecting that SBCL did? 18:05:23 nyef: it's the name. "Steel Bank" is something polished, regular and simple, and "Clozure" is something convoluted and complicated. Hence the expectations :) 18:05:35 And Armed Bear? 18:05:41 Posterdati, =.= I don't like politic, though. 18:05:56 Xach: I'd expect a lot of puns, type system and otherwise. 18:06:15 Now for SBCL it _might_ be possible to replace gensym names by sb-debug::arg-X, to allow evaluating expressions like (1+ #:g3121) etc 18:06:17 Xach: "Armed Bear" is what we think of what you think about what we see in Russia :) 18:06:19 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:06:57 but how does that work in general? Does swank have a way to refer to arbitrary locals and parameters, even if they're gensyms? 18:07:04 nyef: I'm sorry I can't be more specific. It's not a critic of sbcl. I only feel I understand better the sources of ccl than those of sbcl (and those better than the sources of clisp). 18:07:17 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-243-79.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:07:46 pjb, thanks for your encouragement that would have strengthen my intend :D . 18:07:53 nyef: When you arrive on a new project, either you feel it's written like you would have written it, or you keep encountering surprizing things. For me, ccl is like the former. 18:08:03 *morphism* gonna take a nap 18:08:08 G9 ppl 18:08:10 Mmm. I was hoping for something actionable, really, even if it would have to be a long-term project. 18:08:41 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@123.16.98.214] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:08:42 nyef: If I find time to read again some sbcl sources, I'll take notes and tell you. 18:08:58 Okay, thanks. 18:08:58 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 18:09:09 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 18:09:25 -!- doritos [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:10:25 -!- drwho [~drwhen@c-68-80-157-110.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:10:29 -!- Qett [~Qett@ip-169.62.99.216.dsl-cust.ca.inter.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:11:33 -!- whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xjeulhfkgthmaijq] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:11:41 Qett [~Qett@ip-169.62.99.216.dsl-cust.ca.inter.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:46 theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.153.125.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:08 ... 18:13:40 playing around with bytecode/microcode design after talking about SBCL-OS had unpredicted results :/ 18:13:53 Oh? Do tell? 18:13:59 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:14:14 nyef: I started making a ccNUMA lispm 18:14:24 Nice! 18:14:57 *akovalenko* had to start a kind of fundraising campaign for SBCL/Windows thing: . Anyone remotely interested in keeping the project afloat, in sync and in motion (or maybe not), is encouraged to make a donation. For #lisp'ers, there is additional bonus in it: if I recognize who you are, I'll be polite when telling you here that you're wrong. For cross-platform people: you're my hope, I did it all for you (starti 18:15:10 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:15:31 akovalenko: Cut off at "starti". 18:15:48 (starting with wine support), of course :) 18:15:49 Guthur [~user@host81-151-187-107.range81-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:24 -!- Qett [~Qett@ip-169.62.99.216.dsl-cust.ca.inter.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:16:52 nyef: well, possibly ccNUMA. Basically I started thinking of how a bytecode optimized to nicely support certain operations without being too different from RISC architecture might bootstrap as a cpu, based on some of my old ideas related to MMIX 18:17:24 p_l: You might also look into the old K-Machine stuff. 18:18:03 nyef: the RISC-style lispm from, iirc, LMI? 18:18:13 Yeah. 18:18:21 googles top result for 'wiki k machine' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_K_machine_gun 18:18:37 has the direction of #lisp changed somewhat from the last time I visited 18:18:52 irc networks have several servers. 18:18:53 I think Joe Marshall has interesting notes on that era. 18:19:22 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has joined #lisp 18:19:22 Guthur: Try "lisp k machine". 18:19:59 mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 18:19:59 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:20:37 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has joined #lisp 18:20:40 *akovalenko* imagined a proxy that rewrites google searches for into searches for "lisp ". Then I've searched for "lisp kitten", and... 18:21:04 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d011906.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:04 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:21:33 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has joined #lisp 18:22:08 hi 18:22:29 The variable HI is unbound. 18:23:02 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-199-162.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:23:02 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-199-162.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:23:02 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 18:26:18 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 18:32:04 -!- phrixos [~clarkema@adsl-83-100-198-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:32:37 nyef: one thing which I have already sort-of based on k-machine was type cache 18:33:22 an unholy cross between K-machine and Dis 18:34:12 Any ideas for "WARNING: inconsistent form-number-translations"? 18:34:18 pjb: Thanks. Oh, I'm afraid I won't get a chance to be polite when you're wrong on #lisp -- never seen it happening so far :) 18:35:13 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:35:24 mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 18:35:42 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:36:01 :-) 18:36:35 -!- aeshtaer [~Glossina@71-214-101-79.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:36:50 flip214: It's kind of a record -- I have no idea which code could generate that warning, for starters (is it SBCL?). 18:38:52 flip214: that's cryptic indeed 18:39:04 that's a message given by swank-sbcl.lisp 18:39:04 flip214: lisppaste? 18:39:40 prxq: won't help much, is when trying to get information for a stackframe that's generated by several levels of macros, with slimv ... 18:39:40 upgraded swank without restarting slime? 18:39:47 Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has joined #lisp 18:39:53 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:39:59 er, without also upgrading slimv? 18:40:00 dlowe: no. I suspect that slimv didn't sent the source position correctly 18:40:04 nyef: basically, I had some idea regarding supplying data layout for all non-primitive objects, and used similar trick to C++ vtables, with last few bits being "version" of the type (to invalidate older copies) 18:40:30 dlowe: I've got a hg checkout of slimv, doing updates several times a day, each time restarting vim 18:41:01 I just hoped to hear some easy explanation _when_ that message is given 18:42:10 hmm, the stack frame has (SB-PCL::FAST-METHOD) ... perhaps not a slimv problem after all? 18:43:35 p_l: As opposed to there being a specific "invalidated" flag in the layout structure? 18:43:47 flip214: it asks sb-di:: stuff for some info, and when it's inconsistent... uhm, I'm afraid you already know that much. But you could decorate swank-backend::stream-source-position with prints to see some more details. 18:44:33 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@203.145.92.117] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 18:45:08 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 18:45:23 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:46:50 -!- cheezus [~Adium@bas2-toronto36-1177696336.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 18:47:32 urandom__ [~user@p548A5003.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:44 hmmm, I just though to put a breakpoint there ... but how would I debug that then? bad idea 18:49:28 flip214: there's also (TRACE ...), but it seems like everything interesting happens inside. Maybe tracing those SB-DI: things would be informative. 18:49:53 (unless there's too much noise) 18:50:15 Be very careful, one wrong move in that part of the system, and you'll be in an infinite loop from having traced part of the trace machinery. 18:51:26 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: 1/0] 18:55:23 nyef: an idea here -- how hard it could be to disable traces for the duration of trace? (or maybe queue them). I've runned into a tracing-the-trace loop half a year ago, and it was no good.. 18:55:54 Honestly, it'd be far better to have the debugger in a separate process. 18:56:21 Then you could debug one copy of the debugger using another copy. 18:56:44 akovalenko: I could give you some variable dumps, but I can't really interpret them. 18:56:48 nyef: I wanted to track instances for invalidation - the type cache would be used by GC 18:58:27 flip214: could you lisppaste them? even if I'm unable to see the light now, let it be available for someone else or somewhen else.. 18:58:31 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125543 18:58:40 my change, plus the output 18:59:05 nyef: so far, it's all on paper though 18:59:06 of course I'd paste them ... that's too much for inline paste, would just get me a kick 19:00:04 p_l: are you sketching a design for a Lisp machine? 19:00:05 setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@118.45.149.199] has joined #lisp 19:00:24 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 19:00:45 Guthur: it started out as a design for bytecoded implementation to run on modern hw. 19:00:56 could be extended to run as a whole system 19:01:02 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.199] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:01:34 p_l: now the only thing missing is a good FPGA implementation ... and you've got a contender for the raspberry pi 19:01:36 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:01:41 -!- drake01 [~drake01@unaffiliated/drake01] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:02:29 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:02:58 flip214: it seems that you're examining a source for frame that has no useful source location info (some intermediate lambda compiled by clos internally). SLIME on Emacs reports the same thing as "Error: can't find source location for...". 19:03:00 I fear it would be quite power hungry compared to Pi's 1176, and lacking a GPU ;-) 19:03:43 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:03:55 flip214: so it seems that the only problem is to make error reporting less terrifying, and it probably has to be done on VIM side. 19:03:57 I was reading a Steve Wozniak interview the other day where he was saying how he used to be designing computer on paper long before he managed to actually build one, he had no money to buy the parts 19:04:09 it was an interesting read actaully 19:04:24 akovalenko: shouldn't sbcl just store "no position" in such a case, and report that? 19:04:50 the "problem" is that this is given as a (:write-string "WARNING...") which (currently) just gets printed in the REPL 19:05:21 sorting out that this should be ignored is not nice ... it shouldn't be printed in the first case 19:05:26 Fare [~Fare@74.125.59.116] has joined #lisp 19:05:35 rwiker_ [~rwiker@209.80-202-32.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:06:48 flip214: probably you have to handler-bind warnings, specifically, around the code that is looking up a source location (in swank). Well, I'm looking into SLIME/SWANK.. 19:07:36 hi 19:07:48 what is the preferred way of sending patches to hunchentoot? 19:08:16 Fare: https://github.com/edicl/hunchentoot 19:08:28 Should I send a pull request? 19:08:35 I'd think that pull requests would be nice 19:08:57 Fare: best to ask the mailing list, I think. 19:08:59 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.83.247.108] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.90.1] 19:09:08 Fare: or review its archives for similar discussion. 19:09:49 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-219-175.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:10:23 the website still mentions the mailing-list for patches. I'll ask around. 19:10:29 First, make a nice(r) patch... 19:10:33 or set of patches 19:10:44 The website is out of date. There has been recent discussion on the mailing list. 19:11:17 mikecsh [~mikecsh@203.145.92.117] has joined #lisp 19:12:21 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:13:26 -!- Guest78230 [~Kron@129-97-120-63.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:13:54 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:14:20 Xach: btw, thanks a lot for putting my stuff in quicklisp, and finding bugs along the way 19:14:54 *Fare* wonders: should the xcvb-driver have more magic, to cope with a xcvb binary not being installed, or should I somehow push for the binary to be installed? 19:15:13 Xach: as writer of quicklisp, I suppose you think magic bootstrapping is good. 19:15:15 fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9518865.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 19:15:50 maybe the xcvb-driver should somehow cause the xcvb binary to be created for the next time. 19:16:09 is it ok to assume sbcl is installed, and bork if it isn't? 19:16:12 I don't understand a thing about xcvb and do not want to make a comment that can be construed as an informed suggestion. 19:16:58 xcvb would like eventually to replace asdf 19:17:05 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:17:12 though it currently uses asdf as a bootstrap mechanism 19:17:17 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:17:25 it can bootstrap itself, but only with patched versions of its dependencies. 19:17:35 what does the xvcb binary do? is it equivalent to asdf-install? 19:17:52 the xcvb binary is kindof the equivalent of "make" 19:18:06 though currently xcvb is specialized for building lisp code 19:18:48 so the xcvb-driver calls xcvb, and tells it "please build cl-ppcre, and tell me what files to load as a result" 19:18:59 xcvb does the building, then comes back with a list of files. 19:19:06 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:19:16 the driver loads those files. voila. 19:19:45 unlike asdf, xcvb (at least in its default mode) builds each file from a clean deterministic environment 19:19:59 so you can do incremental builds and not have bad surprises. 19:20:10 jaminja [~jaminja@76.76.24.43] has joined #lisp 19:20:10 -!- jaminja [~jaminja@76.76.24.43] has quit [Changing host] 19:20:10 jaminja [~jaminja@unaffiliated/jaminja] has joined #lisp 19:20:17 is that an actual problem, in practice? 19:20:52 (possibly a stupid question, since you have made that choice :-) 19:20:55 I don't know anymore 19:21:10 I used to think it was. It used to be a big problem. 19:21:25 But I suppose we got used to it here 19:21:33 It can help when you add "at ITA" when appropriate. 19:21:35 xcvb can also build in parallel 19:21:38 "at ITA" 19:22:01 haha 19:22:14 Many of the decisions made for ASDF2 made much more sense to me when phrased as "asdf1 had this problem at ITA, so asdf2 is different" 19:22:30 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 19:22:32 indeed. 19:22:42 sounds neat - I'll try to add "at ITA" at various points in conversations at work tomorrow, and report back if it has any positive effects for me :-) 19:22:54 But asdf2 tried to fix things in ways that are not specific to ITA 19:22:54 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:23:07 before then, we had a pile of add-ons and overrides at ITA. 19:23:25 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has joined #lisp 19:23:55 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 19:23:55 including add-ons that depended on the overrides. 19:24:05 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has joined #lisp 19:24:26 It's not a big problem to have nondeterministic builds, because the solution is always "blow everything away and do a clean build". It's just *annoying* to have to do that. 19:25:02 foom: indeed, and machines and compilers have gotten faster faster than our code has gotten bigger. 19:25:19 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.171.195] has joined #lisp 19:25:22 hey 19:25:23 we have stopped sustaining exponential growth here. 19:25:24 I'm back 19:25:27 Fare: I thought having parallel compilation was the holy grail? 19:25:41 dlowe, it's a good bonus 19:25:45 Well, parallel compilation is easier than deterministic parallel compilation. :) 19:26:02 that usually makes up for the time wasted recomputing things from clean rather than building from dirty 19:26:17 actually, we have had POIU for parallel compilation for a while 19:26:25 pjb, can you give me a good name for a CL impl on .NET ? 19:26:52 the non-deterministic breakage scenarios make it not worth the while to maintain the dependency tree without deterministic enforcement. 19:27:04 IroniCL ? 19:27:20 I bet you could have parallel builds if you just separated compile-time code from your run-time code in your project. 19:27:31 next ! 19:27:43 CL# is instantly recognizable for what it is :) 19:27:54 clhash? 19:27:58 change list number? 19:28:04 neticle? 19:28:14 morphism: depending on your requirements, you may be able to use a non-CLR CL, using RDNZL to access .NET libraries 19:28:19 CL#.NET (as # is non-terminating in standard readtable) 19:28:26 CLRCL? Clerical? 19:28:29 =) 19:28:31 CLRCL, yep 19:28:34 MSCL 19:28:36 how funny 19:28:40 no MS prefix 19:28:42 minuscl? 19:28:49 BTWDPRFRTSMRVWLSTHR.. 19:28:50 miniscl 19:28:51 =) 19:28:57 CLR Morphism Utility for Common Lisp, or CMUCL 19:28:58 mcl ? 19:29:04 mcl is taken 19:29:10 DBCL (Disarmed Bear CL)? 19:29:11 it's only taken twice 19:29:13 hmmm? ok, I see that I misunderstood that question *completely* 19:29:15 akovalenko: is that some sort of german acronym? 19:29:15 =) 19:29:35 kruhft: didn't you see all the verb abbreviations at the end? 19:29:41 Xach, I thought CMUCL is taken ? 19:29:44 kruhft: it's supposed to mean "But I would prefer to see more vowels there"... 19:29:54 on the plus side, I did manage to mention RDNZL 19:29:59 is that important to put "CL" in the end of the name ? 19:30:08 akovalenko: ah 19:30:21 morphism: and com.your-domain.common-lisp in the beginning! 19:30:38 morphism: is the name that important? just pick something dumb and start hacking 19:30:41 pjb, DBCL remind me about Dragon Ball CL ! 19:31:01 akcl :) 19:31:04 BicyCLe. 19:31:07 clogiure.. 19:31:12 dlowe, I thought so. Just a bit more fun to see how ppl will name it 19:31:12 pjb: unicycle 19:31:25 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:31:27 monocl 19:31:32 recycle? 19:31:33 A good one. 19:31:36 MonoCL. 19:31:40 +1 19:31:43 monocl, +1 19:31:44 ramshacl 19:32:23 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 19:33:03 -!- sellout- [~Adium@conference/djangocon/x-solwvmwwwtzzogqb] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:33:28 monoCL ? 19:33:41 plus juan 19:33:47 how about "morph" ? 19:33:58 minus juan 19:34:14 One advantage to MonoCL as a name is that it makes finding a logo fairly obvious. 19:34:24 ahh... 19:34:35 nyef , are you thinking about.... 19:34:40 ;)) 19:34:59 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@203.145.92.117] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 19:35:24 Naming? Yes. Using windows again without being paid an exorbitant hourly rate? No. 19:35:33 nyef: will you be going to ILC ? 19:35:41 o.(o) 19:35:46 fe[nl]ix: Where is it? 19:35:51 Kyoto 19:35:56 ^_^ 19:36:07 Almost certainly not. )-: 19:37:08 fe[nl]ix: are you going? 19:37:30 nyef: what will it take to convince you, apart from a big cheque ? 19:37:32 fe[nl]ix: hi 19:37:49 kyoto is awesome and very pretty. 19:38:10 just so expensive to get there from NA. :/ 19:38:45 *p_l* would need to become an investment banker to pay for it ;-) 19:39:09 Fare: Do you intend to organize further Boston meetings? 19:39:14 drwho [~drwho@c-68-80-157-110.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:23 prxq: I'll most likely go, it all depends on a couple of clients of mine who are having "cashflow problems" and have not payed the invoices 19:40:41 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has joined #lisp 19:41:58 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-041-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:42:28 hi p_l, co syhac ? 19:46:52 Xach: I was considering reviving them. 19:47:02 Maybe extending to other programming languages 19:47:14 Xach: would you talk? 19:47:51 j_king, what's NA? 19:48:08 North America I presume. 19:48:09 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 19:48:47 ngz [~user@201.144.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:49 Fare: I would. My talk in amsterdam took some of the fright out of the idea. 19:49:18 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:28 felideon: a.k.a. "default continent" (enter NA if not applicable :) 19:50:12 Xach: would you be available to speak in November? For how long? 19:50:19 Fare: North America 19:50:28 akovalenko: hehe 19:50:30 Fare: how hard would it be to have live streaming to, say, montreal? 19:50:39 pkhuong, from Boston? 19:50:46 right. 19:50:48 I dunno. Not impossible 19:50:52 Fare: November, yes. I spoke for 45 minutes in Amsterdam and could have spoken for an hour, plus Q&A. 19:51:03 I have to ask around. I believe Google has the capabilities for that. 19:51:17 Fare: MSLUG is trying to reboot itself back to life. 19:51:28 Xach: OK, let me figure out the logistics with Google and I'll get back to you. 19:51:32 pkhuong, nice 19:51:32 Fare: ok 19:51:40 we could do monthlies in duplex 19:52:02 *Xach* would love to visit montreal for lisp discussion non-virtually 19:52:03 Xach was a thoroughly polished performer in Amsterdam 19:52:11 -!- Quaydon [~robert@cpe-071-068-114-143.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 19:52:19 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.79] has quit [Quit: Offline] 19:52:25 fe[nl]ix: I'm personally fine, except for problems with sleeping :) 19:54:00 Fare: we've seen a fair number of presentations with slides in english, but french narration. I'm not sure how well that'd go in Boston (: 19:54:30 I'd be up for it :) 19:54:33 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-035-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:12 Fare: and who else ? 19:55:14 I don't know either, but I'm surprised people who rejected Georges didn't also reject English and switched to French... 19:56:07 :D 19:57:18 sellout- [~Adium@conference/djangocon/x-onspxjizpwgpdzsg] has joined #lisp 19:57:25 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-035-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:57:32 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-035-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:58 Krystof: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=vindex&search=0x84C5E27852D68DF2 ! 19:58:24 -!- Davidbrcz__ [~david@ANantes-151-1-206-15.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:59:21 you are far more efficient than I! 19:59:34 thank you. I know where I have put the little pieces of paper, though 19:59:44 anvandare [~anvandare@78-22-149-4.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:00:01 I managed to lose luis's slip. 20:00:18 of course given that that key is ~10 years old all the crypto nuts in the world are probably telling me that I should make a new one 20:00:35 kpreid [~kpreid@robinjgn-THINK.wlan.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 20:01:11 (also I thought that one of those uids was expired/revoked/whatever but maybe I haven't managed to propagate that everywhere. Oh well.) 20:01:22 [6502] [4e0cf288@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.242.136] has joined #lisp 20:04:41 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:04:57 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Quit: Lähdössä] 20:05:04 *[6502]* hates passwords 20:06:09 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 20:07:05 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:09:35 Quaydon [~robert@cpe-071-068-114-143.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:03 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:47 whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qzoykgbwcuuhsliu] has joined #lisp 20:11:29 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-235.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:15:49 I see ELS 2012 has been annouced 20:16:03 Croatia, nice 20:18:43 morphism1 [~Nevermind@113.190.171.195] has joined #lisp 20:18:43 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.171.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:21:39 Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:15 hmm... is replacing a function (as in the case of redefinition) atomic in SBCL? 20:24:09 p_l: I don't believe so, no. 20:24:59 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 20:25:09 nyef: So I might get bad things happening if I recompile a function while it's called inside an event loop? 20:25:28 p_l: I think there's a 2-3 instruction vulnerable window. 20:25:37 What architecture? 20:25:54 x86-64 20:26:42 isn't the actual redefinition just a case of overwriting a slot in the symbol structure? 20:26:49 It's a single-instruction window on x86-64. 20:26:53 nyef: really? doesn't it go through a single pointer write? 20:27:07 rwiker_: No, it isn't. For a number of technical reasons. 20:27:31 I hoped for an atomic overwriting of function pointer :/ 20:27:41 pkhuong: SYS:SRC;COMPILER;X86-64;CELL, VOP set-fdef-fun, it's two consecutive memory writes. 20:27:50 oh well, I can put a lock around i 20:27:52 *it 20:28:43 Err... /set-fdef-fun/set-fdefn-fun/ 20:28:50 *p_l* wanted to do some interactive OpenGL 20:29:36 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 20:29:55 nyef: only an issue for closures. 20:29:56 Now, the two words written are consecutive slots, and the first is double-word aligned. 20:30:11 pkhuong: Don't you believe it! 20:30:23 pkhuong: Only not an issue if both inbound and outbound functions are closures. 20:30:25 -!- rwiker_ [~rwiker@209.80-202-32.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:30:37 or neither. 20:31:00 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 20:31:13 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-035-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:31:27 Oh, right, no reg_CODE. 20:31:39 Okay, on x86oids only, though. 20:31:48 -!- nicdev_ [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:32:20 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 20:32:27 I'm remembering something about the closure tramp on sparc having an actual function header for some reason, but that could also have been CMUCL. 20:32:31 yup. And assuming a stronger memory model than reality, it might just work for the mixed case as well. 20:33:09 Right, it will tend to work for the mixed case, simply because of cache writeback semantics. 20:33:12 (if closure_tramp works correctly on a simple-fun) 20:33:28 frito [~user@cpc12-sotn9-2-0-cust535.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:33:28 It's -supposed- to work correctly on a simple-fun. 20:33:30 Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has joined #lisp 20:33:42 ... isn't it? 20:33:57 nyef: I think so. It's fundamental for funcallable instances, no? 20:35:12 -!- drdo`` is now known as drdo 20:35:25 -!- frito [~user@cpc12-sotn9-2-0-cust535.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35:34 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:28 *|3b|* finds the odds of actually redefining a function at the wrong time low enough for messing with OpenGL code interactively 20:36:42 Yeah, that's looking likely, at least for x86-64. 20:36:57 <|3b|> even redefining methods usually works 20:37:16 |3b|: methods are fine. 20:37:19 <|3b|> (and that gets a restart, so just a quick trip to the debugger to tell it to try again) 20:37:36 -!- ljos [~mozzyb@login1.uib.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:38:36 nyef: well, on x86-64, if that's broken, so are funcallable instances. 20:38:53 Yeah, exactly. 20:39:15 nyef: are those two slots together forming 16byte? 20:40:03 ljos [~mozzyb@login1.uib.no] has joined #lisp 20:40:12 p_l: Yes. It's an aligned 16-byte block, assigned to over two consecutive instructions. 20:41:06 *p_l* ponders if it could be made atomic 20:41:35 p_l: no need for atomicity on x86ids. 20:42:26 Set the raw-addr to the closure tramp, barrier, set the function pointer, set the raw-addr, barrier again. Maybe barrier between the last two writes. 20:42:32 xtd8 [~xtd@93-96-235-146.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:42:44 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:43:02 Having a known-safe, if a touch slower, value for one of the slots is a plausibly-useful thing. 20:43:24 Now, that doesn't help for competing sets, but you can't actually win there without a lock. 20:43:25 frito [~user@cpc12-sotn9-2-0-cust535.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:44:01 heh. And all I wanted to do was implement the rendering loop in a way so that I could recompile the function and see the differences :D 20:44:08 p_l: you can. 20:44:10 -!- frito [~user@cpc12-sotn9-2-0-cust535.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:44:15 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:44:21 nyef: on x86oids? 20:44:26 pkhuong: for (mod (mod..)) stuff -- if reviewing commits is easier for you than preparing them, feel free to take mine 20:44:32 frito [~user@cpc12-sotn9-2-0-cust535.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:44:36 sorry, wrong window.. 20:44:42 or maybe not :) 20:45:00 pkhuong: On x86-64. At least, I don't THINK you can win without a lock. 20:45:18 <|3b|> p_l: can't recompile the render loop while it runs, but you can recompile whatever it calls 20:45:18 nyef: yes, you can, easily with consing. 20:45:22 -!- dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-pyjqnjjqybrqqkkm] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:45:30 |3b|: that was actually the idea. 20:45:46 ... how does consing help? 20:45:54 <|3b|> make sure to wrap the call in a continue restart for when you break it too :) 20:45:56 |3b|: have a loop that implements a "pipeline" and recompile individual functions 20:46:10 Let me rephrase that. How does consing help without adding another layer of indirection to the function-call sequence? 20:46:22 *|3b|* tends to just recompile 1 big function (or stuff it calls) 20:46:46 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.176.214.152] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 20:46:46 <|3b|> "pipeline" sounds like it would end up being complicated enough to want to change it, at which point you have to restart the loop 20:46:52 nyef: it's a classic lock-free trick. Take a lock with an object that describes how to complete the critical section. 20:47:05 <|3b|> 1 more layer of function fixes that, and 1 call per frame won't matter for performance 20:47:08 |3b|: it's not a serious project, though 20:47:23 and yes, I was considering what you said as well 20:47:34 just playing around with assignment for a course I'm not in :) 20:47:58 I'm still lost, but willing to take your word for it. 20:49:12 <|3b|> p_l: it is much nicer than recompiling and restarting all the time in C/C++, even if it does risk hitting a race in redefinition once in a while :) 20:49:30 |3b|: true :) 20:49:54 *|3b|* likes it enough to go through quite a bit of contortion to do the same in browser dev too :) 20:50:12 haha 20:50:46 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:52:16 nicdev_ [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:10 should a CL give error on input like "-" or "+" ? 20:54:18 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 20:54:22 morphism1: no 20:54:22 <|3b|> with quotes? no 20:54:27 no quote 20:54:33 even without 20:54:35 <|3b|> both are defined as variables in CL as well 20:54:56 ... I can see why + might give an error, though. 20:55:07 -!- [6502] [4e0cf288@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.242.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:55:08 and ( 1 2 3 ) should not be valid without quote or "list" ? 20:55:23 <|3b|> depends on the context 20:55:44 <|3b|> 1 probably doesn't name a function though 20:55:44 <|3b|> (or macro or special operator) 20:55:49 -!- sellout- [~Adium@conference/djangocon/x-onspxjizpwgpdzsg] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:55:55 so operator like that should just be its name or type to be returned ? 20:56:08 <|3b|> 2 could without too much effort though 20:56:33 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 20:56:34 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@pool-96-226-69-239.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:36 (macrolet ((do-nothing (&rest args))) (do-nothing (1 2 3))) ;; success 20:56:37 *|3b|* points at the evaluation rules in CLHS 20:57:02 oh... =.= 20:57:03 waveman [~tim@124.170.43.134] has joined #lisp 20:57:18 <|3b|> anything we say here will either be generalizing or take much too long to convey the details :p 20:57:25 that's when ( 1 2 3 ) is valid 20:57:37 sellout- [~Adium@conference/djangocon/x-hcxnijtrynglxdju] has joined #lisp 20:57:37 <|3b|> and if you want to implement a CL, you really need to learn to read the CLHS anyway :) 20:58:04 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:58:15 akovalenko: you forgot to (declare (ignore args)) 20:58:36 unless you dont mind the warning :P 20:58:42 felideon: you forgot to ignore style-warning :) 20:58:54 |3b| thanks, I will have sometime with that 20:59:35 oh.. now is time for bed @.@ . See you you guys later. 20:59:40 -!- morphism1 [~Nevermind@113.190.171.195] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:00:47
|3b|: now I'm cureous: is it *possible* to create a function (or macro or special operator) with a number as its name? 21:01:12 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:01:12 dl: no 21:01:29 -!- sellout- [~Adium@conference/djangocon/x-hcxnijtrynglxdju] has quit [Client Quit] 21:01:46
OK, I didn't think so, but from |3b|'s comment I thought I might be mistaken... 21:02:20 <|3b|> (setf *read-base* 2) (defun 2 (&rest 3) 3) (2 '3 '4) 21:02:34 <|3b|> bonus points if you can get back to a sane state from there :) 21:02:46
oooh! nice |3b| !!! 21:02:57 (setf *read-base* 1010) ? 21:03:01 <|3b|> easier than recovering from large base though 21:03:19 <|3b|> yeah, not a lot of bonus points :) 21:03:32 Nonsense. (setf *read-base* 10.), surely? 21:03:48
that will be helpful for writing obfuscated code (and probably not much else :) ! 21:03:55 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-218.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:04:25 1010 is easier to type :-/ 21:04:27 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-218.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:04:34 <|3b|> you can also so (defun |2| ...) with normal read base, and the function will still have the same name (a symbol named "2") 21:04:59 -!- am0c [~am0c@110.12.29.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:05:08 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 21:05:12 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.28.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:05:47 Unfortunately, CL doesn't support RADIX-50 (which is 50 in octal, 3 digits per 16 bits).. 21:05:56 <|3b|> the distinction i made about function named 1 is that while you can name it |1|, you can't set the read-base low enough for it to read 1 as a symbol 21:06:17 akovalenko: SIXBIT! 21:07:09 (setf *read-base* 0) ;; unary system. Hmm, but digit 0 is wrong. 21:08:06 CLISP: checks *read-base* on first use and resets it to 10 if it's bogus.. 21:08:13 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:08:54 Isn't *READ-BASE* constrained to be not less than 2, per the spec? 21:09:18 CCL: signals an error on each read after setting *read-base* to 0, even if no number is read.. 21:09:18 21:09:36 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-253.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:38 pkhuong, could it be done in three steps? one - write the first memory cell with a value that makes it invalid and trap, two write the other memory cell, three write the first one with its definitive value 21:09:49 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@GGYZKMMDCCLIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:09:49 (assuming the writes are in-order) 21:09:49 <|3b|> akovalenko: not even a 'potential number'? 21:10:07 nyef: quality of implementation issue. SBCL doesn't _allow_ (setf *read-base* 0), for instance.. 21:10:28 |3b|: I suspect, it tries to check if it's a potential number, and.. 21:10:47 the trap better know how to wait until the value is good again 21:11:37 akovalenko: Java, otoh, allows you to redefine integers 21:11:40 Fare: What you actually do is write the second ("raw address") cell with a pointer to the closure tramp, then write the first cell, then rewrite the second cell if necessary. The closure tramp can handle any kind of function in the first cell, so it's generally safe. The problem comes with competing writes. 21:11:43 Fare: there's probably still an ABA or a lock. 21:13:19 nyef: DCAS on x86oids makes that easy. 21:15:12 -!- Fare [~Fare@74.125.59.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:15:16 Fair enough, I guess. 21:15:37 peterhil [~peterhil@YYDCCLXIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 21:16:11 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@robinjgn-THINK.wlan.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: Offline] 21:17:01 if we only have single CAS, things become hairy. 21:18:21 -!- frito [~user@cpc12-sotn9-2-0-cust535.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:35 frito [~user@cpc12-sotn9-2-0-cust535.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:19:30 lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-194-148.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:30 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-194-148.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:19:30 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 21:20:19 antoszka 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21:31:51 lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 21:34:13 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:34:16 Administrator [~quassel@69.158.121.27] has joined #lisp 21:34:42 -!- Administrator is now known as Guest38762 21:37:21 -!- Guest53273 [~quassel@69.158.123.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:37:33 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:25 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.153.125.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:40:56 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 21:41:25 theBlackDragon [~dragon@77.109.119.34] has joined #lisp 21:44:59 On LtU there is a strange pattern between the relation of number of posts and reads on the threads regarding the deaths of Dennis Ritchie and John McCarthy, the former has 78 comments, and 8950 reads, whereas the latter has 16 comments but 12355 reads 21:46:29 interesting observation 21:53:05 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:53:49 -!- jaminja [~jaminja@unaffiliated/jaminja] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:54:42 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:54:51 Guthur: What's LtU? 21:55:15 antoszka: Lambda the Ultimate 21:55:26 programming blog thingie 21:55:54 Ah, yeah. 21:55:57 Thx. 21:59:01 -!- lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:36 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:21 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.60.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:01:34 -!- jsarrel [~jsarrel@66-191-161-122.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:02:24 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:03:52 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit 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