00:02:39 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:03:01 ok 00:03:25 For the byte-code machine, I just had a simple hash-table to intern symbols, and I implemented the basic operators (I think just from the McCarthy paper) and bound those to symbols 00:04:19 It was dynamic binding only, so had all those issues 00:05:52 -!- benny [~benny@i577A78E5.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:07:53 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-219-175.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:08:47 oconnore [~Eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:56 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 00:10:19 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Client Quit] 00:10:24 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 00:15:36 paul0 [~user@177.16.148.206] has joined #lisp 00:19:49 -!- cheezus [~Adium@bas2-toronto36-1177850063.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:20:31 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 00:21:27 cheezus [~Adium@bas2-toronto36-1177696336.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:21:30 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23:00 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS317.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: :q] 00:23:36 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-143-84.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:23:49 Bike_ [~Glossina@69.166.35.237] has joined #lisp 00:24:09 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:24:11 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 00:24:48 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:25:01 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:29:44 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 00:30:21 alessio [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-78-12-89-54.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 00:30:35 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:30:51 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.162.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:31:41 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-240.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:26 -!- astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-34-131.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:37:35 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:38:27 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:38 -!- mtd_ [~martin@chop.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:44:10 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:44:25 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:45:34 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 00:45:38 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:46:15 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 00:48:19 Guest61307 [~martin@chop.xades.com] has joined #lisp 00:48:30 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:54:30 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@175.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 01:05:41 -!- xwolf- [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (Session timeout)] 01:05:44 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A2B7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:08:45 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:10:23 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:07 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238]] 01:12:11 Bike_ [~Glossina@71-214-101-79.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:55 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 01:16:48 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has joined #lisp 01:17:18 pnathan [~Adium@64.126.142.148] has joined #lisp 01:20:49 -!- pinterface1 [~pinterfac@173-20-55-85.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:20:49 -!- SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:30:38 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-45-22-54.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:37 pinterface [~pinterfac@173-20-55-85.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:39:06 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:39:07 > (values 1 2 3) > * => 1. is there no way to get second and third value? 01:39:37 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@108.60.121.114] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 01:40:00 / 01:40:37 thanks, thought it wasn't possible 01:40:38 -!- Guest61307 [~martin@chop.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:41:02 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 01:41:48 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.227.222.126] has joined #lisp 01:45:15 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 01:46:44 -!- pnathan [~Adium@64.126.142.148] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:47:10 you can also use slime presentations 01:48:12 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.227.222.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:49:21 adeht wow great, didn't even know that existed. it even works with my own classes 01:51:34 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-159-125.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:45 Guest55132 [~martin@chop.xades.com] has joined #lisp 01:54:25 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-28-52.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:54:58 xwolf- [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 01:56:04 hi. I think I did something like this before, does someone know the correct syntax? (defmethod foo ((eql 0)) nil) 01:57:58 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.22.193.130] has quit [Quit: marsell] 01:59:43 pnathan [~Adium@76.178.165.160] has joined #lisp 02:00:00 (defmethod foo ((x (eql 0))) nil) 02:00:45 thanks 02:02:22 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:03:42 maher [~maher@user-387gg6m.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:04:53 claudxiao [~claud@61.180.255.130] has joined #lisp 02:04:54 does anyone have a copy of Barski's "land of Lisp"? Does the 'Interlude: Functional Programming Is Beautiful' consist of the comic poking fun at haskell? 02:05:35 -!- Guest55132 [~martin@chop.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:07:02 -!- S1am [~guest@eth-209.20-homell.natm.ru] has left #lisp 02:07:44 lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-194-148.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:44 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-194-148.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:07:44 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 02:12:07 -!- shaq [~shaq@76.73.16.26] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:12:36 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Client Quit] 02:13:24 -!- kernelpanicker [~pfrench@24.106.207.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:13:45 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:14:26 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:16:47 -!- xristos [~x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:20:47 xristos [~x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 02:20:59 -!- xristos is now known as Guest34174 02:22:30 maher: iirc yes 02:23:54 wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:59 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:28:39 p_l: thanks 02:29:50 bamccaig [~bamccaig@unaffiliated/bamccaig] has joined #lisp 02:30:22 Is there a generic mailing list for beginners (similar in nature to beginners@perl.org)? 02:36:30 -!- maher [~maher@user-387gg6m.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 02:36:48 bamccaig: news://comp.lang.lisp 02:37:09 On the other hands, there are mailing lists for professionnals. 02:38:00 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:41:09 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 02:42:07 pjb: I'm unfamiliar with news groups. Do they work just like mailing lists? :\ 02:42:43 bamccaig: superficially, kinda :-) 02:43:04 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:43:48 thumbflip [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:33 kernelpanicker [~pfrench@rrcs-24-199-157-59.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:44:56 -!- kernelpanicker [~pfrench@rrcs-24-199-157-59.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 02:44:56 kernelpanicker [~pfrench@unaffiliated/kernelpanicker] has joined #lisp 02:45:02 -!- thumbflip [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:47:44 thumbflip [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:12 Guest10873 [~martin@chop.xades.com] has joined #lisp 02:58:13 todun_ [~todun@seasnet-58-02.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 02:59:26 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 03:01:25 -!- Guest10873 [~martin@chop.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:02:31 Gmind [~nevermind@113.190.162.66] has joined #lisp 03:05:07 -!- el-maxo_ [~max@p5DE8EE7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:05:13 bamccaig: if you use gnus to read your mail, yes. 03:06:42 zfx- [~zfx@host86-166-174-138.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:07:09 el-maxo [~max@p57A5708F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:36 -!- gko [~gko@114-136-141-168.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:08:02 gko [~gko@42-72-232-55.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:24 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:08:49 mtd_ [~martin@chop.xades.com] has joined #lisp 03:10:13 kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-1-155-138.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 03:10:25 bamccaig: more like a forum than a mailing list 03:10:33 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-190-102.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:12:02 -!- xwolf- [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (Ping timeout)] 03:12:04 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 03:12:34 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:17:37 -!- kernelpanicker [~pfrench@unaffiliated/kernelpanicker] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:19:26 Well, the point is that a lot of newsreader or mail reader present a very similar interface to both mail and newsgroups. 03:20:45 -!- mtd_ [~martin@chop.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:33:54 -!- cafesofie [~user@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ""] 03:35:07 -!- drdo [~drdo@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:35:29 drdo [~drdo@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 03:35:44 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-45-22-54.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:37:40 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:43 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:37:45 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-159-125.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:18 -!- el-maxo [~max@p57A5708F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:39:34 -!- Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:39:40 Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 03:39:42 -!- gko [~gko@42-72-232-55.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:40:31 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-159-125.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:41:04 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:41:05 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:41:44 el-maxo [~max@p57A5708F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:06 EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 03:45:37 Guest47680 [~martin@chop.xades.com] has joined #lisp 03:46:31 -!- thumbflip [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:47:25 Kron [~Kron@98.143.102.22] has joined #lisp 03:47:50 -!- Kron is now known as Guest29868 03:54:23 -!- coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Quit: I need my meds... >.<] 03:57:33 Yeah, I more or less view a mailing list as a distributed forum. ^_^ 03:59:20 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.227.222.126] has joined #lisp 04:02:35 harovali [~harovali@r190-64-113-134.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:04:34 -!- kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-1-155-138.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:10:16 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has quit [] 04:10:27 Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has joined #lisp 04:11:10 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:11:59 daniel [~daniel@p5082AAAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:05 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-101-79.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: okay, enough of this terrible modd] 04:12:39 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:12:58 -!- _krappie_ [~brain@mx.skitzo.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:14:37 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082BD20.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:15:32 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-219-175.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:53 -!- cheezus [~Adium@bas2-toronto36-1177696336.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:15:53 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 04:20:57 doritos [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:24 -!- Quaydon [~robert@cpe-071-068-114-143.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:31:24 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.239] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:31:24 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:31:24 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:31:24 -!- troydm [~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:31:24 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:31:24 -!- wolgo [~jarrod@184-106-197-125.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:31:24 -!- oGMo [~rpav@66.219.59.103] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:32:33 The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:51 bamccaig: that said, newbie questions are also welcome here, as long as said newbie shows some abilities for learning. 04:32:52 oGMo [~rpav@66.219.59.103] has joined #lisp 04:35:27 In (defmethod foo ((something x) bar) (let ((bar (frob bar))) (call-next-method))), which value of bar will the next method get passed, the original or the frobbed? 04:35:46 The original. 04:35:52 Never mind. I remembered how to read. 04:37:27 Quaydon [~robert@cpe-071-068-114-143.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:37:27 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.239] has joined #lisp 04:37:27 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 04:37:27 troydm [~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm] has joined #lisp 04:37:27 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #lisp 04:37:27 wolgo [~jarrod@184-106-197-125.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 04:37:39 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:39:13 why some Lisp hosting are so expensive ? 04:39:34 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 04:42:08 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.199] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:42:27 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-39-234-229.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:18 Gmind: Use a virtual private server, use quicklisp and never look back. Mine is $7 a month. 04:44:04 -!- oconnore [~Eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:45:11 can I see your website ? 04:48:53 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.199] has joined #lisp 04:51:32 -!- Quaydon [~robert@cpe-071-068-114-143.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:51:53 coderdad [~coderdad@ip72-200-211-242.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:22 Gmind: here's a site running on a VPS with Lisp. http://www.codequarterly.com/ 04:54:36 H4ns: aroundp 04:58:13 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:58:50 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 04:59:48 here's another site running on a VPS with lisp: http://cyrusharmon.org/blog 05:00:00 google+ seems to be swallowing all my new posts though :( 05:00:22 gko [~gko@42-72-232-55.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:09 thumbflip [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:44 -!- claudxiao [~claud@61.180.255.130] has left #lisp 05:08:52 -!- jaminja [~jaminja@unaffiliated/jaminja] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:08:54 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: 1/0] 05:09:38 Quaydon [~robert@cpe-071-068-114-143.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:10:03 -!- pnathan [~Adium@76.178.165.160] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:10:15 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 05:11:00 Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 05:14:08 gigamonkey: t 05:15:09 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@ip72-200-211-242.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:16:27 -!- Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:16:33 http://quickhoney.com/ is on a vps with lisp, too 05:17:11 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-212-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:17:35 tritchey [~tritchey@12.207.196.2] has joined #lisp 05:27:11 -!- gko [~gko@42-72-232-55.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:28:32 gko [~gko@42-72-215-66.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:43 rainyrhy [~rainyrhy@bb119-74-142-101.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 05:29:05 -!- Quaydon [~robert@cpe-071-068-114-143.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:31:04 jaminja [~jaminja@unaffiliated/jaminja] has joined #lisp 05:32:49 benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has joined #lisp 05:32:55 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-193-219.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:35:13 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:40:42 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.176.238.68] has quit [Quit: perchance, to dream] 05:41:23 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:43:03 -!- thumbflip [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:46:19 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:49:15 xyxu1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has joined #lisp 05:58:06 -!- xyxu1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has left #lisp 05:58:37 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:00:27 H4ns: so what's in the tip of master of edicl/hunchentoot on GitHub? 06:00:33 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:43 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has joined #lisp 06:00:57 Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:05 -!- Guest29868 [~Kron@98.143.102.22] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 06:03:30 It seems different than the 1.1.1 I have via quicklisp. 06:04:08 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:04:12 xyxu1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has joined #lisp 06:04:49 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:08:44 -!- benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has quit [Quit: benkard] 06:13:05 _krappie_ [~brain@mx.skitzo.org] has joined #lisp 06:17:00 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:19:45 gigamonkey: master on github is what is going to be the 1.2 release 06:20:05 gigamonkey: i have been committing myself to do that before nov-1 06:20:44 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:21:04 gigamonkey: when i get to that later this week or on the weekend, i will restructure the github repo so that it reflects the release structure. for the moment, there are edi's release tarballs and github, which is the development tree with no branches except master. 06:24:49 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.28.90] has joined #lisp 06:26:07 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-81.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:27:56 -!- alessio [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-78-12-89-54.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Quit] 06:34:36 hba [~hba@189.229.191.177] has joined #lisp 06:37:09 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 06:38:31 thumbflip [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:19 mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 06:41:35 liaoya [~chatzilla@2001:250:3003:80:224:21ff:fe09:750e] has joined #lisp 06:42:18 mishoo_ [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 06:43:01 -!- liaoya [~chatzilla@2001:250:3003:80:224:21ff:fe09:750e] has left #lisp 06:44:51 nostoi [~nostoi@176.Red-79-157-234.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:11 Korntoff [~Korntoff@222-153-69-25.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:45:12 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:45:19 One day I got bored with Java, 06:45:31 so I learned a little Lisp and what I found was a surprise 06:45:41 It is a language so unique and so expressive 06:45:48 That coding never looked the same within my eyes] 06:46:02 Now I eat parentheses for breakfast 06:46:22 And if my program isn't done, I eat parentheses for lunch. 06:48:11 This channel is so active 06:48:15 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-81.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:49:44 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@12.207.196.2] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 06:49:45 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:49:58 Come here, mr. nipples 06:50:22 good morning 06:52:52 Hello 06:54:21 -!- markskilbeck [~Mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:55:13 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 06:55:20 Welcome! 06:56:39 TheMoonMaster [~TheMoonMa@reddit/operator/themoonmaster] has joined #lisp 06:58:26 initself [~initself@li85-41.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:58:36 http://www.paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html 06:58:48 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 06:59:02 when you really understand McCarthy's eval, like a Euclid axiom, what useful thing do you come away with? 06:59:03 mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 06:59:37 A very fundamental understanding of computer science. 06:59:42 markskilbeck [~Mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 07:00:24 It also has a lot of applications, as virtual machines, interpreter "design pattern", domain specific languages, and meta linguistic abstractions. 07:00:39 are you expected to tarry with it for a while in your mind to get to the bottom of it? is it an exercise? 07:01:08 It's a mind changing experience. Like reading SICP. 07:01:23 A mind expanding experience. 07:01:39 i tend to approach programming from an utterly practical point of view - databases, input/output, text processing. 07:02:09 initself: you know sicp? Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 07:02:10 whenever I dabble in SICP or Lispy things, my brain shuts off. Maybe I am not of the caliber of a true engineer? 07:02:15 "utterly practical point of view" <- this is meaningless. 07:02:36 initself: you have a strange brain. Usually programmer brains get all exited on sicp. 07:02:37 Zhivago: i tried explaining what i meant by the following words. 07:03:18 It's strangely comforting to hear that I might have a strange brain when it comes to learning computer stuffs. 07:03:39 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:03:48 Is my strange brain a lazy brain? 07:04:03 Maybe I need to beat my head against eval for like 36 hours or something. 07:04:05 I don't know, but it seems to like to say things that don't mean much. 07:04:10 Some people need 20 years before they get lisp. 07:04:26 It's a shame, because they all regret not having used lisp earlier. 07:04:32 pjb-: like, Norvig learning programing over 10 years type thing? 07:04:41 Yes. 07:04:53 like, I'm not stupid, but I just need to slow it down and learn over the long haul. 07:05:14 One problem is that it seems like perl scratches every itch I have. 07:05:15 cheezus [~Adium@bas2-toronto36-1177696336.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 07:05:16 It's definitely not a question of being stupid or not. 07:05:25 There's a Haha moment to be searched in it. 07:05:35 So it is an exercise! 07:05:47 That may make more sense if you know what a "haha" is. 07:05:52 Like a spiritual exercise, yes. 07:05:59 And probably SICP would be a better approach than the koan of eval. 07:06:09 Although SICP is like a koan, too. 07:06:13 SICP isn't about lisp. 07:06:19 It should help. 07:06:23 To understand lisp, implement a lisp. 07:06:29 Good lord. 07:06:33 A very small one, preferably. 07:06:50 Well, on #scheme I've seen people implementing scheme in strange ways... 07:06:55 Implement a lisp in lisp, not in C++! 07:07:17 But aren't there fundamental starting points that we as engineers have passed through? 07:07:21 Have a look at McCarthy's first lisp and try re-implementing it in visual basic or whatever you prefer. 07:07:36 You know, like in the Asimov story about the computer that no one person can understand because it's too complex at a certain point? 07:07:52 initself: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/index.html 07:07:53 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 07:08:28 Exemple! 07:08:52 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:09:52 whoa, i like the DEFINE lines, that makes sense. 07:11:01 There's nothing cooler than a macro 07:11:45 what does it mean to "implement" LISP? 07:11:46 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 07:12:32 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:12:35 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:12:36 What does it mean to implement Pascal or C++? 07:13:33 headache (for c++) 07:13:41 lol 07:13:41 I honestly dont know, but I'd say something like you define the rules of the language? 07:13:56 You implement them. 07:14:02 lol 07:14:03 mishoo [~mishoo@86.124.148.84] has joined #lisp 07:14:07 It means writing an interpreter or a compiler for that language. 07:14:08 So desciptivew 07:14:17 And you can write a C compiler in C? 07:14:24 Sure. 07:14:26 And compile it with itself 07:14:29 Amazing. 07:14:30 cception 07:14:32 Sure. 07:14:34 So LISP does that as well. 07:14:41 So what's the difference? 07:14:52 LISP is doing something fundamental that the other is not. 07:15:02 Yes. It was the first language for which an implementation written in itself was done. 07:15:03 A c compiler written in c compiled by a c compiler written in c compiled by 07:15:11 (I feel like I'm asking the zen master to explain MU to me in words when I have to experience it myself) 07:15:13 Like Pypy? 07:15:17 No. 07:15:22 Pypy is like lisp. 07:15:36 an implementation written in itself 07:15:36 Pypy does in 2010 what lisp did in 1959. 07:15:37 Pypy 07:15:52 So LISP is first? Is that it? 07:15:56 Yes. 07:16:06 I sometimes wonder why we spent 50 years reinventing what Lisp pioneered in the 50s 07:16:07 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 07:16:23 Then there can be an "Haha!" moment in C too? 07:16:26 In Computers, everything has been invented in the golden decade, the sixties (if you include 1958 and 1959 in them). 07:16:41 initself: Yes, but it's harder to find, and it's a smaller haha. 07:16:46 Isn't that when thw AI boom started? 07:16:54 pjb: this is pretty amazing, man 07:16:59 Define 'Haha!' 07:17:07 Korntoff: yes, but everything else was invented too. 07:17:34 Korntoff: it's a moment of understanding. It's when you get a light bulb shining over your head. 07:17:46 I've had several of those 07:17:48 Korntoff: "Haha!" is when you truly understand how a language can implement itself? 07:18:04 But you speak as thopugh there was a single universal one where everything makes sense 07:18:32 It's probably a fundamental moment of understanding computing. I myself have not had this experience. 07:19:50 What gets me is this: the gap between the language implementation to something for practical use seems so vast, it's pointless to understand it. 07:19:51 . . . I see 07:20:20 It seems in English it's spelled "aha!" http://www.amazon.com/Aha-Insight-Martin-Gardner/dp/071671017X/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1319613596&sr=8-4 07:20:24 Like, for instance, the Perl 5 guys can't snap their fingers and make Perl 6 a reality for everyman. 07:20:30 And they are freaking SMART guys. 07:20:46 It takes them years of collaborative effort. 07:21:02 How is my no CS degree ass gonna compete with that? 07:21:21 initself: a pig does exactly the same as any human during its life. It has about the same genes, it eats the same things, it sleeps, it has sex, children, and he dies. Exactly like any human. 07:21:36 But it doesn;t code 07:21:37 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:21:41 THey don';t know what thay're missing out on 07:21:59 So many typos 07:22:16 i don't think pigs miss the typos 07:22:52 pjb: what are you trying to say? 07:22:53 He's dead. Jim! 07:23:13 47% of the adults in Detroit don't miss any typo too. 07:23:36 initself: you don't need to think, just do your job, be happy. 07:23:48 pjb: shit. on that note, I'm going to bed!@ 07:23:52 & 07:23:57 pjb++ 07:24:09 Good night! 07:24:54 -!- el-maxo [~max@p57A5708F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:28:06 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 07:31:00 -!- H4ns [57a9ea75@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.169.234.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:33:10 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:34:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-106-139.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:34:55 -!- cheezus [~Adium@bas2-toronto36-1177696336.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:35:38 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:36:03 cheezus [~Adium@bas2-toronto36-1177696336.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 07:36:21 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:36:21 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:38:18 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:40:23 ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has joined #lisp 07:43:34 e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-pttlzyhzogemqbot] has joined #lisp 07:43:49 -!- sellout- [~Adium@12.232.236.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:45:05 is there any article on implementing a standard common lisp ? 07:46:45 Gmind: IIRC there are some papers about SBCL. 07:47:06 There's alot more material about implementing a lisp. 07:47:40 There's also Baker's meta-circular paper. 07:47:44 example code or something ? 07:47:57 there is also LiSP 07:48:02 There are a lot of free implementations. What more code examples would you want? 07:48:17 I would like to see the source code 07:48:18 :P 07:48:27 but they are too much 07:48:35 There's sacla and sicl 07:48:52 Seems you don't know what you want. 07:49:07 Start reading http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/index.html 07:49:52 mookin [~moo-kin@h-137-164.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 07:50:01 Gmind: some implementations are easier to read than others. I'd advise reading ccl sources. 07:50:32 -!- cheezus [~Adium@bas2-toronto36-1177696336.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:50:52 I tried sometime with yarr too 07:51:06 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:51:10 since I'm thinking about writing one on .NET 07:51:37 Also you could have a look at lisp500.c, but that's more an exercise in C obfuscation than in CL implementation... 07:53:24 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@176.Red-79-157-234.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:53:32 implementing a toy "lisp" is easy. everyone does it (even more true for scheme). But doing it in a way that it becomes usable for real work is hard 07:53:34 It might also be feasible to write a .NET backend for ccl. 07:54:54 In any case if you plan to write a CL implementation, read LiSP. 07:54:56 pjb, are you kidding me ? =)) C obfuscation is so evil 07:55:13 Gmind: well how else can you implement a subset of CL in 500 lines of C? 07:56:33 you might also consider nils holm's books on lisp / scheme implementation 07:56:44 is that just an interpreter ? 07:56:57 Probably. 07:57:17 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:57:25 -!- hba [~hba@189.229.191.177] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:58:52 there's been a scrennshot showing slime for R ... but I can't find it anymore. Can somebody drop me a hint? 07:59:31 flip214: http://common-lisp.net/~crhodes/swankr/lattice-presentations.png ? 07:59:51 gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:23 you mean this http://code.google.com/p/lisp5000/source/browse/trunk/lisp500.c?r=5 08:01:19 Well obviously it has been pretty printed... 08:01:50 Try this: http://www.s2.org/~chery/projects/lisp500/lisp500.c 08:02:23 thanks! 08:02:31 as an example of what you don't want to do. 08:03:06 Gmind: get ccl rather: http://ccl.clozure.com/download.html 08:05:47 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.243.177.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:08:13 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 08:10:51 H4ns [5ddb9b36@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.219.155.54] has joined #lisp 08:11:25 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.227.222.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:11:40 pjb, but thanks for suggesting that, even when it's C obfuscation, still fairly beautiful 08:12:15 Well it's code written by lispers... 08:12:23 pjb: hi 08:12:33 pjb: are you ready for AI? 08:12:55 pjb, what AI are you working on ? 08:13:06 Not exactly. I'll go to bed soon :-) And ai-clcass servers have still problems... 08:13:12 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:13:13 lol 08:14:29 do you think Yarr is a good example to learn from ? 08:15:31 pjb thrun is just like an electrician that works with me 08:16:58 pjb: I can do a subset of CL in far less than 500 lines of C. 08:17:11 of course, it would be a quite small subset :D 08:20:44 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 08:21:35 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-121-223-183-146.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:23:17 -!- gko [~gko@42-72-215-66.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:24:14 gko [~gko@111.81.198.237] has joined #lisp 08:24:47 Daved [~Korntoff@222-153-69-25.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:25:46 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 08:27:03 -!- doritos [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:27:27 Ralith then see you later when you can show me that :P 08:27:41 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:28:35 -!- Korntoff [~Korntoff@222-153-69-25.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:30:12 -!- H4ns [5ddb9b36@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.219.155.54] has quit [Quit: reconnect] 08:30:13 Thrun sounds like Arnold Schwarzenegger 08:30:34 H4ns [5ddb9b36@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.219.155.54] has joined #lisp 08:31:28 Gmind: int main(int argc, char **argv) { char c[4]; fgets(c, 4, stdin); if(stricmp(c, "nil") == 0) { printf("NIL\n"); }} 08:31:52 -!- Gmind [~nevermind@113.190.162.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:31:58 aerique: hi 08:32:07 aerique: what about ants? 08:33:00 Posterdati: not much, the timing of this challenge is kinda unfortunate for me and i haven't found any time to work on it yet 08:33:01 -!- easyE [5s6hZxLd2F@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:34:09 :( 08:34:19 aerique: your ubuntu image works great 08:34:35 :) 08:34:44 Posterdati: good to hear, thanks! 08:35:05 Posterdati: i had hoped the challenge would have started a couple of months earlier... 08:35:09 Davidbrcz_ [~david@ANantes-151-1-36-23.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:36:04 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-egtueepajqgscflz] has joined #lisp 08:36:18 when does the challange end btw? 08:36:59 jdz: the official response so far is: "somewhere in December" 08:37:39 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 08:37:45 aerique: yeah, i see. navigation for specific information in that page always takes more effort than i expect. 08:38:30 i wanted to sign up yesterday, but could not come up with a nickname so didn't 08:38:37 the lamest reason ever 08:38:48 but it's not too late, anyway 08:38:51 jdz sounds good. 08:39:02 jdz: no, you can sign up until the last day 08:39:07 aerique: let's power on it now! :) 08:39:43 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:40:14 Joreji [~thomas@87-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:41:55 i hate people 08:42:08 sometimes 08:42:29 Consider people are just walking computers, ill programmed. 08:44:50 Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has joined #lisp 08:45:12 RUnning windows? 08:45:18 lol 08:45:33 Of a ntfs partition. SLowly degrading 08:45:37 an ntfs* 08:49:12 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:51:11 pjb: consider a friend of mine fried an hd just only access ever and only one subdirectory 08:51:14 on windows 08:51:58 stupid does not stop on windows. 08:52:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:52:11 EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 08:52:33 H4ns: it was forced to do so... :) 08:52:54 H4ns: most people don't even know what actually a computer is 08:53:28 Posterdati: the world can be glad to have us. 08:54:50 H4ns: they think a computer like a smart container 08:54:59 most people in italy don't know what internet is 08:55:12 H4ns: for useless data lol 08:55:17 jdz: are you saying that italians are particularly stupid? 08:55:20 Posterdati: "lol" 08:55:37 http://speedtest.net/result/1551023274.png 08:55:47 H4ns: they put up with shit like that 08:56:04 H4ns: that's 8 megabits for you (well, me actually) 08:56:17 jdz: just think about your country... :) 08:56:18 lol 08:56:37 el-maxo [~max@p57A5708F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:47 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-212-240.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:56:51 hi folks 08:57:24 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 09:00:35 consider (format t "~{~a~^, ~}" list), what would I do if I wanted ", " to be replaced by an arbitrary string, if not (format t (format nil "~~{~~a~~^~a~~}" foo) list) 09:02:25 el-maxo: i think you'll have to generate your format string first. 09:03:43 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:04:03 is it better to generate format strings using format or sequence format calls? 09:04:25 (format t "~:{~A~^~A~}" '((a ", ") (b "; ") (c ". "))) 09:04:47 nikodemus: hi 09:04:50 nikodemus: how are you ? 09:05:05 el-maxo: and (format t "~:{~A~^~A~}" '((a ", ") (b "; ") (c ". ") (d))) 09:05:22 it's rather useless to use ~^ then. 09:06:03 Also: (format t "~{~A~^~A~}" '(a ", " b "; " c ". " d)) 09:06:52 its not what Im looking for, I have a list of integers which should be delimited by one arbitrary string. 09:07:35 Yes, building the format string first. But don't forget to escape the tildes. 09:10:09 el-maxo: like what you've pasted is the way. 09:12:20 No, rather: (format t (format nil "~~{~~a~~^~a~~}" (escape-tildes foo)) list) 09:13:54 oh, right 09:15:11 -!- Daved [~Korntoff@222-153-69-25.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:15:59 hmm 09:16:06 pretty overcomplicated 09:16:21 el-maxo: true. maybe format is not up to this job. 09:17:12 shouldn't this be possible somehow with "~?"? I can't figure it out. Never used it, though 09:18:08 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:18:21 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:18:43 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.213.122] has joined #lisp 09:19:25 Neronus: my feeling is that inside the iteration format control the arglist is what's inside the list, not what's passed to the FORMAT initially 09:19:50 Neronus: and you probably mean ~* 09:20:03 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-240.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:20:04 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 09:21:03 jdz: I thought that I could create format strings with ~? which would then be processed. I was wrong, sadly :) But thanks for the asterisk :) 09:21:54 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has joined #lisp 09:27:16 Well, the problem is that there's no way with ~* to "push" and "pop" the current position, so you cannot safely use a ~n@* inside a ~{ loop ~}... 09:27:17 Neronus: as promising as the ~? directive looks, it seems that it cannot be applied in this case. but thanks for ~?, i've totally non been aware of it. 09:27:53 even slime ~ documentation does not want to accept question mark 09:28:10 oh, C-q 09:28:25 benny [~benny@i577A869C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:30:57 maybe pretty printing (logical blocks in particular) can be [ab/mis]used to do this, but i've never gone into that territory 09:30:57 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-106-139.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:31:24 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-106-139.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:32:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-106-139.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:33:04 -!- rainyrhy is now known as rainyrhy_away 09:35:02 -!- zfx- [~zfx@host86-166-174-138.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:35:56 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:36:42 good morning everyone 09:39:58 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 09:43:57 if it's only integers, this also does what you want and you don't need escaping: (format nil (format nil "~{~A~^~~A~~:*~}" '(foo bar baz)) " -- ") 09:44:07 it's still ugly, though :) 09:45:42 -!- el-maxo [~max@p57A5708F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:45:44 nurv101 [~nurv101@2001:690:2100:2:4687:fcff:fe91:9c05] has joined #lisp 09:49:34 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:49:53 i'd use mapl: (let ((values '(1 2 3)) (sep " -- ")) (mapl (lambda (list) (princ (first list)) (when (rest list) (princ sep))) values)) 09:50:28 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:43 (maybe) 09:57:59 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 10:00:09 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:01:02 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:04:09 (when list (princ (first list)) (dolist (elem (rest list)) (princ sep) (princ elem))) 10:05:45 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:05:50 -!- BrianRice [~water@174-21-117-191.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:06:08 BrianRice [~water@174-21-117-191.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:32 pjb: smart! 10:08:30 -!- xyxu1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:12:07 stupid question: do you apply a function on an argument or vice versa? 10:12:50 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:13:13 gensym`: you apply a function on arguments 10:13:31 okay, thanks 10:13:59 gensym`: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function_application 10:15:15 oh the question was more natural language than CL related... 10:16:21 but I think one also speaks of aplying functions to arguments... 10:16:36 -!- jasom [~aidenn@ip98-182-25-247.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:18:06 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 10:21:52 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 10:21:56 akovalen` [~anton@95.73.122.127] has joined #lisp 10:23:28 -!- akovalenko [~anton@95.73.216.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:26:29 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-85-72.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 10:28:57 urandom__ [~user@p548A2FA3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:36 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:31:20 Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has joined #lisp 10:33:18 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:34:56 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-106-139.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:35:17 lain_ [~lain@p5797AFC9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:37 ehu [~ehuels@109.38.41.22] has joined #lisp 10:39:36 jasom [~aidenn@ip98-182-25-247.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:51 -!- H4ns [5ddb9b36@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.219.155.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:45:39 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: brb] 10:48:24 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:48:48 Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has joined #lisp 10:51:07 ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has joined #lisp 10:51:08 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:51:11 -!- rainyrhy_away is now known as rainyrhy 10:54:47 Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:57 el-maxo [~max@p57A5708F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:01 hi again 11:03:30 suddenly SBCL's require forgot how to load my ASD 11:03:49 but seemingly similar cases work fine 11:03:53 -!- waveman [~tim@124.170.43.134] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:04:10 is there a way to get a proper error message? 11:04:18 instead of unable to load foo 11:06:22 Try: (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :foo) 11:08:44 codesinverse [~Jaybles@205.185.117.18] has joined #lisp 11:08:46 missing component 11:09:53 H4ns [d4b9ede3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.185.237.227] has joined #lisp 11:10:15 what does missing component mean? 11:10:33 the symlink is right there next to the others pointing at an asd file 11:11:21 some cache inbetween? 11:11:38 el-maxo: no. dangling symlink? wrong asdf:*central-registry*? 11:13:21 -!- mookin [~moo-kin@h-137-164.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:13:49 *central-registry* is nil? 11:13:51 weird 11:14:56 but asdf:search-for-system-definition returns the pathname of the symlink 11:15:32 which in return gets resolved to the correct file with probe-file 11:16:24 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.162.179] has joined #lisp 11:16:51 Yuuhi [benni@p54839D9E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:23 Gmind [~nevermind@113.190.162.66] has joined #lisp 11:19:07 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:19:58 doesn't make any sense 11:20:43 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:20:57 can I somehow clear the fasl cache? 11:21:00 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.199] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:21:33 -!- Gmind [~nevermind@113.190.162.66] has quit [Client Quit] 11:21:34 rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp/ 11:21:57 Gmind [~nevermind@113.190.162.66] has joined #lisp 11:22:35 what the fuck 11:22:37 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:24:11 how can (asdf:search-for-system-definition 'foo) work while (require 'foo) says he dont know nuttin? 11:24:47 can I load a system by supplying a pathname to the asd? 11:26:25 el-maxo: try fixing your asdf:*central-registry*, maybe like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/59709 11:28:11 but there is nothing in my registry and it still finds ALL OTHER systems in the same directory 11:28:26 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 11:29:06 it can't be the registry 11:30:00 el-maxo: Try: (step (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :foo)) 11:31:37 fails with that stupid error after the first step 11:31:45 also says something about an SBCL bug 11:31:49 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:32:14 Error: Don't know how to use a DEBUG-SOURCE without a namestring or a form. This is probably a bug in SBCL itself. (Alternatively, SBCL might have been corrupted by bad user code, e.g. by an undefined Lisp operation like (FMAKUNBOUND 'COMPILE), or by stray pointers from alien code or from unsafe Lisp code; or there might be a bug in the OS or hardware 11:32:19 that SBCL isrunning on.) If it seems to be a burg in SBCL itself, the maintainers would like to know about it. Bug reports are welcome on the SBCL mailing lists, which you can find at . 11:32:30 sorry for the spam 11:33:02 Not too helpful indeed. 11:33:27 its some kind of cache 11:33:29 Somebody more versed in asdf could suggest some asdf function to trace. 11:34:00 ok this SBCL bug is some step related thing 11:34:00 Anyways why do you want to use require. Nowadays we use (ql:quickload :foo). 11:34:36 I have a deep hatred for quicklisp, since noone was ever able to tell me WHY quicklisp is better 11:34:47 plus its really creepy 11:35:01 It's better because it downloads dependencies automatically. 11:35:04 el-maxo: you are swearing and hating too much. 11:35:08 DataLinkDKT [~DataLinkD@123.208.59.133] has joined #lisp 11:35:30 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:35:53 I do not mind being asked for confirmation to download a package 11:36:40 -!- Gmind [~nevermind@113.190.162.66] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:36:55 this step function doesn't seem to work 11:37:20 or it just fails to step through the compiled code 11:37:23 probably the latter 11:38:06 yes 11:40:07 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1] 11:41:09 el-maxo: whatever it is, in the long run, you'll know how to deal with asdf:*central-registry*. to me, it looks as if you have some asdf extension loaded that magically locates systems. maybe you have common-lisp-controller or some such. forget all that. set up your asdf:*central-registry* correctly and be happy. 11:41:46 asdf:*central-registry* 11:41:50 => (#P"/home/max/.sbcl/systems/") 11:42:07 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:42:09 -!- Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:42:16 all my asd files are in there 11:42:24 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has joined #lisp 11:42:28 all work but not the ones I add now 11:42:43 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:42:46 some cache, that's all im saying 11:43:03 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has joined #lisp 11:43:11 and I have to admit I am pretty angry wt whoeever it is that engineered this situation 11:43:21 Gmind [~nevermind@113.190.162.66] has joined #lisp 11:43:21 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:43:37 gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.85.72] has joined #lisp 11:43:47 -!- Gmind [~nevermind@113.190.162.66] has quit [Client Quit] 11:43:54 demand a refund. 11:44:04 i demand justice :D 11:44:05 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.41.114.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:46:33 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:48:19 Brendan_T [~brendan@46.105.251.111] has joined #lisp 11:49:39 -!- lain_ [~lain@p5797AFC9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:50:30 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:51:23 -!- akovalen` is now known as akovalenko 11:52:06 lain_ [~lain@p5797AFC9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:15 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:57:29 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:01:36 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[~setmeaway@118.45.149.199] has joined #lisp 15:00:43 benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has joined #lisp 15:01:26 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.162.66] has joined #lisp 15:01:57 mapcar is interesting! 15:02:15 it feels a little different from map 15:02:23 ...I think it is. 15:02:31 (speaking of the haskell map0 15:03:19 yes, mapcar is only for side effects 15:03:30 kruhft: ? 15:03:42 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:03:43 kruhft: tain't either! 15:03:46 kruhft: I think you're thinking of mapc 15:03:47 kruhft: you mean mapc is. 15:04:00 djanatyn: mapcar is just map specialized to lists 15:04:08 well, haskell's map apparently can't take multiple lists? 15:04:21 oh. nvm. 15:04:24 i stand corrected 15:04:54 i get the mapc, mapcar, map, mapcan, mapwhatevers sometimes mixed up :) 15:05:00 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: do panic!] 15:05:17 kruhft: There's a simple table somewhere to keep most of them straight. 15:06:04 *djanatyn* really likes common lisp. 15:06:18 I haven't had this much fun with a language in a long time :) 15:06:52 yes it is fun, for certain values of fun, sometimes 15:07:09 i find it annoying at times, but i still think it's the best language for programming in 15:07:34 at least for my personal programming, not a chance in hell i could ever use it at work :-/ 15:07:55 harovali1 [~harovali@r190-134-144-198.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:08:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-058.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:08:47 -!- harovali [~harovali@r190-64-113-134.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:09:20 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.227.221.8] has joined #lisp 15:09:31 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:09:39 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.34.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:23 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.153.125.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:11:13 -!- rainyrhy is now known as rainyrhy_away 15:11:41 -!- rainyrhy_away is now known as rainyrhy 15:12:05 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 15:14:19 there's a chance i might be able to use CL at work, but the other lisper is really into clojure and i'm not sure what's so great about clojure since we don't have any JVM tech in our company. 15:14:26 and it's not CL. ;) 15:14:40 i'd be happy with using either at work 15:14:43 the number of Java libraries maybe 15:14:47 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 15:14:52 closure is a bit less long in tooth though, plus the library thing 15:15:07 clojure occupies an interesting place in the design space. 15:15:14 to me it looks like java in lipstick. 15:15:16 kruhft: closure? 15:15:18 clojure, closure, and clozure are all different :-/ 15:15:38 ... wasn't there mention of a "cloxure" as well at some point? 15:15:40 oops, my bad, i meant clojure 15:15:47 I was wondering if you have heard about the unfortunate death of John McCarthy... 15:16:00 sepisultrum: see topic 15:16:30 oh, I overead that. I just wanted to suggest it. 15:16:45 :( 15:18:28 does anyone have any experience with clojure in a prod environment? the framework here at $ORK is all java - i've played with the idea of squeezing clojure in there somewhere as a proof-of-concept ... figure the java-fanboys will shoot it out of the sky, but what the fsck. 15:18:54 blackwolf: ask in #clojure 15:19:17 figure they might be a bit biased. 15:19:24 blackwolf: i think you can use clojure to compile to standard java byte code and integrate the results into jar files so there should be no difference to those that aren't using it 15:20:07 blackwolf: So, you've decided to counter the bias by... biasing your sample to make it less likely to obtain a positive response at all? 15:20:10 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-235.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:20:19 kruhft: Tell that to the startup time. 15:20:51 nyef: startup time? rarely important with lisp-type systems. 15:21:06 H4ns: Occasionally critical with java-type systems. 15:21:35 every piece of 'enterprize' java software i've used, which admitted wasn't much, had startup times in the multiple minutes 15:21:54 nyef: you're not pleased i consider the crows here unbiased? :) 15:22:02 s/crows/crowd/ 15:22:46 blackwolf: this crowd is hardly unbiased 15:23:06 blackwolf: #lisp is really #common-lisp. the number of people here who have real experience with clojure isn't that great 15:23:30 H4ns: confirmation bias 15:23:39 ...hmm! 15:23:45 kruhft: you just gave me an idea 15:23:49 -!- sellout- [~Adium@12.232.236.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:23:52 anyway. talk common lisp! :) 15:24:11 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.162.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:24:31 djanatyn: and what would that be? 15:26:10 kruhft: Well, there's this game called minecraft. 15:26:12 it's written in java. 15:26:34 I've always kinda considered writing a modification for it by putting some class files in the jar 15:26:46 but, I've been turned off by writing java 15:26:49 imo, "lisp" is synonymous with "common-lisp" 15:26:51 but I just realized I could write it in lisp! 15:27:05 ngz [~user@201.144.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:11 djanatyn: you can also use ABCL afaik 15:27:34 oh, cool. 15:27:41 djanatyn: yes, i think that's one of the cool things about clojure and how it integrates into java development 15:27:47 so clojure borrows from lisp, but isn't "a lisp" 15:27:53 I'm going to start learning clojure and common lisp together pretty soon 15:27:59 again, imo 15:28:02 they have had, or will have their 1.0 release soon 15:28:05 i think clojure is a lisp, just not common lisp 15:28:13 also, *man* 15:28:16 macros are so cool >_< 15:28:30 omg wtf 15:28:43 I'm really starting to understand that the difference between data and code is just in your imagination :) 15:29:24 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p54839D9E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:29:47 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9518027.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:31:11 Riviera [~Riviera@gateway/tor-sasl/riviera] has joined #lisp 15:31:34 sepisultrum: check the topic 15:31:50 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 15:32:48 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.122.230.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:33:10 jdz: thanks, xach already told me 15:35:49 sepisultrum: yeah, xach is such a helpful fella 15:36:02 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has joined #lisp 15:36:12 blog about it! 15:36:19 Yuuhi [benni@p54839D9E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:56 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:38:10 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.213.122] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:38:17 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.213.122] has joined #lisp 15:38:53 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@12.207.196.2] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 15:40:11 Xach Considered Helpful 15:41:00 Get used to him.. 15:41:53 We all have our warts. 15:42:06 *j_king* doesn't. wart free. 15:44:12 j_king, clojure is a lisp dialect written i Java. 15:44:18 in 15:44:50 It is not related to Common Lips. 15:45:33 or Common Lisp either 15:45:44 arghh, yes 15:46:08 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:11 Younder: it is related. 15:46:12 it certainly is related to common lisp, but it is not common lisp and thus off-topic. 15:46:21 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 15:47:06 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-2925098629.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:47:26 -!- todun [~todun@SEAS287.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: :s] 15:48:53 (do-symbol ...) 15:49:06 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:49:19 hacking package content is hard. 15:49:51 The real hard part is dividing a package into two separate packages in a live image. 15:50:04 Younder: I know. 15:50:47 -!- rainyrhy is now known as rainyrhy_away 15:50:52 Another nasty case is moving an internal function of one package to become an external function of one of its dependencies. 15:51:25 just have to think of a compelling argument to sway my co-worker back to CL from clojure so I can start getting paid to hack CL all day. :) 15:51:40 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has quit [Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...] 15:51:45 so far all I have is.. "but its not CL" 15:51:51 clojure is at least better than some of the alternatives. 15:53:58 <_schulte_> j_king: CLOS, the ability to use state, and no more (loop ... (recur)) 15:54:36 j_king: large number of native libraries, no need to resort to java stuff that feels just foreign 15:54:36 Well Clojure compiles to Java byte code not (directly) to machine code. 15:54:37 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has joined #lisp 15:54:51 Younder: it is hard to beat the jvm in terms of performance. 15:55:04 if someone prefers clojure for a sole/main reason of JVMness, ABCL could be a good argument for CL 15:55:30 H4ns: till it comes to dealing with intricacies of Java's GC, it seems 15:55:35 And Clojure has the limit's of Java. Like finite number range for integers. 15:55:43 and no tco 15:55:47 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:55:52 H4ns, Only if you don't use C. 15:57:04 Younder: JVM has similar performance to C, actually, for long-running processes 15:57:17 p_l: in practice, the jvm is very fast and the jit helps with real-life code much more than the ability to hand-optimize your code. 15:57:59 H4ns: that's what I meant 15:58:07 p_l: ok :) 15:58:33 the only real performance-related problem I heard about Java is that the intricacies of its memory handling are the biggest problem big installations have 15:59:20 By all means write the Linux kernel in Java and good luck to you ;) 15:59:37 Younder: what are you trying to say? 15:59:40 Younder: irrevelant 15:59:43 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:59:57 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-80-026.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 16:00:08 Younder: and yes, there exist Java-based operating systems. As well as JVM-based Realtime applications 16:00:27 didn't meant to spin off a java-vs-c debate. just want to work with CL all day. 16:00:43 H4ns_ [d4b9ede3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.185.237.227] has joined #lisp 16:01:08 the reason Google, for example, is dropping Java on serverside had more to do with the fact that the employees were getting fed up fine tuning the GC :> (and it was bloody hard) 16:02:31 p_l: google uses C++ server side, and Python for server support 16:04:00 Younder: there's Java, C++, Python (and there was at least one JS on JVM case). C++ has reserved place for latency-critical paths due to lack of FFI costs, both Python and Java show up in web products though 16:04:18 -!- H4ns [d4b9ede3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.185.237.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:04:24 repeated attempts to use lisp failed 16:04:48 -!- gko [~gko@111.81.198.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:04:51 You probably know Peter Norwig is head of technical research. 16:04:54 (ITA Software was described to me as "lisp ghetto" inside Google's infrastructure) 16:05:00 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-egtueepajqgscflz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:05:39 "ghetto" as in "subject only to their own laws", or as in "awful place to live"? 16:05:55 nyef: closer to first 16:06:01 l'awful'? 16:06:27 Younder: "low-rent district", perhaps? 16:06:30 but more like "separated island that runs code not fitting with rest of system" 16:06:51 -quit 16:06:53 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:06:54 -!- H4ns_ [d4b9ede3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.185.237.227] has quit [] 16:07:31 rest of Google services communicating over Protocol Buffers with that island. At least, that's what I got from my inquiry 16:07:35 nyef, In silicon valley? 16:07:45 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189-38-236-217.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 16:08:14 ... in Cambridge, MA. That doesn't sound quite right, either, but there's probably something within the same greater metro area. 16:10:02 I figure I might have to grab some C++ book, sit down and relearn that ... thing 16:10:09 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:10:36 p_l: learn C++11 16:10:40 they' 16:10:41 Well Thomson is still alive and doing useful work for google. (Rithie and Mc being gone) 16:10:46 they finally fixed a bunch of stuff 16:11:04 the STL is actually rather neat now. 16:11:28 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189-38-236-217.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has quit [Client Quit] 16:11:38 j_king: I'll be going with Google's C++ style guide, instead. All for job interview preparation 16:11:47 j_king, I confess to using Boost some times. 16:12:18 *j_king* shudders at memories of Boost. 16:12:33 And gtk-mm isn't half bad. 16:12:37 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-193-219.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:12:54 *j_king* compiles lisp to c++ and learns to love the nuke. 16:13:06 Less chatting, more hacking! 16:13:08 lol 16:13:38 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189-38-236-217.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 16:15:59 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:17:06 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: cya] 16:21:04 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.12] has quit [Quit: Offline] 16:25:08 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:09 SegFaultAX|work [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 16:27:52 xjrn [~chatzilla@c-76-21-48-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:12 tritchey [~tritchey@108.60.121.114] has joined #lisp 16:31:46 nyef: chant! 16:32:02 nyef: you know, since there's not a bot here to do it 16:32:13 -!- akahl [e-user@nat/nokia/x-fzncttutsytpsxpw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:32:24 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.213.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:32:24 -!- e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-pttlzyhzogemqbot] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:32:45 *pinterface* looks at his recent posts, suspects he may be /far/ too intimate with CFFI. 16:32:51 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:32:59 H4ns [57bd7766@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.189.119.102] has joined #lisp 16:33:02 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 16:34:35 pinterface: are you using CFFI to put create assembly code objects and call them as well as provide them as callbacks to foreign code? 16:39:22 p_l: Nah. More mundane things, like mapping C output arguments to multiple return values in Lisp, or replacing missing C functions with Lisp code that operates on the C values. 16:40:01 coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:01 -!- coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:40:01 coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 16:40:09 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.195.159] has joined #lisp 16:41:23 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:42:21 ah 16:43:18 I gave up in my last CFFI-intensive project around the time I figured I had to generate assembly at runtime, load it into mmap()ed space, and call those shims in order to not have everything fail spectacularly 16:44:39 *pinterface* humbly bows to your deeper machinations. 16:45:32 nah 16:45:41 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.71] has joined #lisp 16:45:43 at least your stuff seems to go somewhere 16:46:30 theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.153.125.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:41 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.135.74] has joined #lisp 16:46:43 *akovalenko* used to have x86 machine-code trampolines for CFFI-based stdcall callbacks on SBCL (that's why I prefer to have real support for them :) 16:47:57 akovalenko: I was investigating generating C++ exception stacks inside those trampolines 16:48:01 -!- drake01 [~drake01@115.246.135.74] has quit [Client Quit] 16:48:36 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.135.74] has joined #lisp 16:49:22 I'm not ambitious enough to even start that sort of project. 16:49:23 such stuff made me wish I was running VMS and that C++ compiler would use CHF for C++ exceptions -_-; 16:50:05 -!- drake01 [~drake01@115.246.135.74] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50:18 pinterface: it's disturbingly simple yet complex to pull off. And I'm still unsure about possible requirements for unwind tables... they weren't mentioned 16:50:26 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.38.41.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:51:30 Xach: haven't seen the bag, but maybe you could email Hotel Arena? 16:51:42 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.85] has joined #lisp 16:51:56 p_l: I will try that next. 16:53:28 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:53:37 -!- S1am [~guest@eth-209.20-homell.natm.ru] has quit [] 16:53:51 Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-63.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:54:17 X-Scale` [email@2001:5c0:1000:b::9eff] has joined #lisp 16:54:17 -!- Kron is now known as Guest81557 16:54:31 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:54:45 todun [~todun@SEAS111.wlan.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 16:54:50 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.236.70] has joined #lisp 16:54:54 pinterface: basically, I wanted native C++ FFI (no extern "C" nor Smoke) 16:55:13 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:55:13 -!- lain_ [~lain@p5797AFC9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:55:16 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest97406 16:55:23 all of it is easy except exceptions 16:55:25 -!- Guest97406 [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:55:36 (at least on IA-64 ABI platforms, like G++) 16:55:37 -!- X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 16:55:39 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:55:54 haven't yet seen how it looks in MSVC 16:58:24 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.195.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:58:24 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 16:59:19 I'd guess "scary". ;) But maybe less so for you. 16:59:58 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2FA3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:00:36 urandom__ [~user@p548A5E93.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:20 I had the excuse of being ill while digging into that ;) 17:04:31 tali713` [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:56 -!- tali713` [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:08:38 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:08:38 but something like that would be useful. I just didn't want to be caught without any support in case C++ side fired an exception 17:09:47 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:10:13 xtd8 [~xtd@93-96-235-146.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:11:15 -!- paul0 [~user@177.16.148.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:11:16 H4ns_ [57bd7766@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.189.119.102] has joined #lisp 17:11:40 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-48-138.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:13:16 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 17:14:51 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 17:15:21 -!- H4ns [57bd7766@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.189.119.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:16:23 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:17:02 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:17:04 Sure. It's really easy to end up spending a huge amount of effort crossing a language barrier. 17:18:20 CFFI - for when you really want your lisp image to crash due to a buffer overflow 17:18:22 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:20:07 ltk failed nicely tho! 17:20:08 lol 17:20:21 SBCL has been surprisingly stable for me when I accidentally cause that sort of thing. (Friggin' refcnt bugs.) 17:20:26 can't even get the demo progs to run...... 17:21:19 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-243-0-141.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:21:36 I've wished for a while that someone could make a wire protocol for a high level gui, like X did for low-level guis 17:21:52 then we wouldn't have to futz about with library bindings 17:22:00 or html 17:22:16 html is both more and less than I was hoping for 17:22:33 dlowe_lt: to be clear, that's something we wouldn't have to futz around with either ;) 17:23:01 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181056239.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:23:14 oGMo: sure, if you want your interface to be browser-bound 17:23:15 i remember talk of doing similar back in the late 90s, but then the web took off, sadly 17:23:16 Hm. clisp disconnects slime on debugger loop. "Don't use clisp" probably. But sbcl behaves strange on the debugger :-/ 17:23:21 what's out there too? 17:23:24 -!- nurv101 [~nurv101@2001:690:2100:2:4687:fcff:fe91:9c05] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:23:58 dlowe_lt: there were several such things, including the original lisp motif bindings 17:24:03 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d013924.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:05 dlowe_lt: i must fail at english; html is part of the problem and i wish it would go away for this sort of thing 17:24:10 hi 17:24:21 xml ? 17:24:21 i would much rather a gui protocol or similar 17:24:31 http://www.gtk-server.org/ is okay, but it's implementation defined 17:24:32 homie: *ml 17:24:46 and no one is going to make a compatible kde-server or windows-server 17:24:51 well, so sugar, no fun! 17:24:53 lol 17:25:00 gtk-server also uses essentially C calls, and gtk is fairly obtuse, especially in C 17:25:15 -!- austinh [~austinh@67.189.92.40] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:25:27 -!- thumbflip [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:25:32 yes, but if you have a gui server daemon, it doesn't matter 17:25:57 oGMo: what do you mean by "fairly obtuse"? 17:26:11 you just connect to the daemon and send it your serialized gui spec 17:26:29 and then it sends you back high-level gui events like "user just clicked button 5" 17:26:52 I guess tk does this, come to think of it 17:27:33 the "serialized gui spec" is the interesting part, then. 17:27:39 Cam [~x@trivialand/staff/Cam] has joined #lisp 17:28:20 that's what I said, eh? I want a wire protocol that people then write implementations again 17:28:25 against 17:29:23 well, it strikes me as not as trivial as it sounds 17:30:28 No, I wasn't expecting it to be. Tcl/Tk may be the de-facto wire protocol for this sort of thing 17:30:56 Harag [~phil@dsl-242-251-190.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:31:46 hello #lispers. is this a sensible place to ask about slime + sbcl? i'm just starting out and wrapping my head around it, and to be honest i'm likely doing something awful 17:32:02 sellout- [~Adium@conference/djangocon/x-brqqcvbiojzxywga] has joined #lisp 17:32:04 dsp_: that's fine. Everyone does awful things at the beginning 17:32:24 i have wrapped my application up using quickload from quicklisp, as per Xach's blog 17:32:44 you're just starting out and you have an application? 17:33:00 based on hunchentoot. i came from scheme :) 17:33:25 ah, I see 17:33:28 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-209-159.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:33:39 i'm pulling in about 10 libraries right now. i was using vim up until a few days ago, too 17:33:58 Cloud__ [~cbolano@189.227.234.39] has joined #lisp 17:34:10 my workflow was sort of, edit stuff in vim, fire up a terminal window, sbcl --load loader.lisp, where loader.lisp was just (ql:quickload 'mypackagename) 17:34:14 rinse and repeat 17:34:15 p_l: Some of your info regarding Google is not accurate. There are plenty of servers implemented in Java, for instance. 17:34:19 slow, clunky, etc. 17:34:42 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:34:42 dsp_: yeah, I suffered through that for a year before switching 17:34:53 actually, I'd paste code into a terminal without readline support 17:35:02 nice :) 17:35:18 i recently found slime, and it's neat. but i'm not sure my setup fits in the box. for example, i can't really compile things right now 17:35:23 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: reboot] 17:35:36 dsp_: just load your files into the running image 17:35:37 i get package not found, and that's fine, because they're in an asd file, rather than require'd in my source 17:35:39 compiling things is important 17:36:02 reb: I never said there weren't a lot of them implemented in Java - I just said that latency-critical stuff got C++ because of avoiding FFI switch (things like Ads) 17:36:30 dsp_: hard to tell if you are confused about systems and packages. do you know the difference? 17:36:30 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.227.221.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:36:41 actually, no. perhaps i am confused 17:36:41 dsp_: are you using ql:quickload? 17:36:51 in my loader.lisp, yes, which is how i fire up my stuff 17:36:56 reb: and that from what I got from my inquiries, they are backing off from Java (both because of the GC issues, and because afaik one of the biggest pushers of Java there left the company) 17:36:56 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:37:00 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 17:37:00 it's just one line that quickload's my stuff 17:37:04 dsp_: having a loader.lisp is not a good sign 17:37:21 i figured as much. it was just to save me from using quickload by hand 17:37:24 Xach: ... it's not? 17:37:24 since that's all that's in there 17:37:25 dsp_: i normally use quickload in the repl instead. 17:37:41 dsp_: which package does it say it can't find? 17:37:56 coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:06 nyef: no 17:38:08 well, everything i'm using, when i compile my lisp file 17:38:13 *nyef* has a shell script which kicks off a screen session which starts with an SBCL instance which loads a load-server.lisp. 17:38:21 prxq: compare building a gui with something like OSC and the Lemur or similar to gtk's very api-heavy nature 17:38:37 Ok, I have missed some context. 17:38:58 dsp_: your loader.lisp file? 17:39:14 ah, it loads that fine of course. but to put it into context, my loader.lisp can be completely replaced by 17:39:18 sbcl --eval "(ql:quickload 'tempest)" 17:39:24 prxq: and in C there tends to be a lot more API required, whereas various wrappers abstract it nicely to some extent 17:39:26 Then again, my loader.lisp file is a bit more complicated than just (ql:quickload :my-package). 17:39:29 where tempest is the name of what i made with quickpackage 17:39:42 dsp_: why not type (ql:quickload 'tempest) into the REPL and see if that works? 17:40:01 that would. but i'm wondering, how do i then load my changes? 17:40:08 lain_ [~lain@f052171172.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:40:09 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:40:14 it loads fine like that, but i want to edit my stuff, and then see changes, etc. 17:40:17 if that's even possible 17:40:22 type it again 17:40:39 if it uses asdf, it'll figure out what changed and recompile 17:41:16 -!- bamccaig is now known as bambams 17:41:17 dsp_: although you can insert code on the fly with slime using C-c C-c 17:41:30 and C-c C-k 17:41:39 trying to figure out what on earth i could've done wrong if that's all it is. let me just check ;) 17:42:32 appreciate the help, btw 17:42:37 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:43:17 ok, so i get address-in-use-error. 17:43:25 i guess that's because i'm already listening on that 17:43:43 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:43:58 the last line of my code is (hunchentoot:start *acceptor*), which is the only toplevel function call i believe 17:44:27 so i guess on reload, it tries to run that again, and can't, because the previous run is still there. 17:44:51 i guess it's bad form to do that, and i should stick it in a start-server instead that's exported? 17:45:01 (defvar *do-it-once* (hunchentoot:start *acceptor*)) ;; but it's bad form nevertheless 17:45:04 dsp_: that would be sensible 17:45:13 (indeed, i already have start-server and stop-server exported, but i stuck that last bit in for 'convenience') 17:45:26 since i've never bothered reloading the file in the same sbcl session before 17:48:49 now that's neat. it works. thanks a lot! 17:49:18 should improve my productivity a tonne, seeing as i can live-edit and test now :) 17:50:38 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:52:13 Xach: is there a video recording of your presentation online somewhere? 17:52:55 Guthur: there will be recordings of all presentations, I think 17:52:55 -!- lain_ [~lain@f052171172.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:53:01 the audio might suck, though 17:53:15 dsp_: dlowe_lt's point is important. You can simply send definitions or expressions to the running Lisp; you don't have to load the whole file again. 17:53:16 -!- redline6561 is now known as redline6561_nop 17:53:35 p_l: ok, I'll keep an eye out for them 17:53:38 dsp_: just make sure you save everything before you make a commit to your repo, or you'll have some embarrassing follow-up commits 17:54:42 i'm just using a private darcs repo. nobody's paying me unfortunately, so i only am embarrassed by myself ;) 17:55:25 doritos [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:36 dsp_: I still get embarrassed 17:55:48 this is really quite excellent though. i wonder how on earth i managed to get so far without it 17:57:37 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-48-138.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:57:42 -!- Guest81557 [~Kron@129-97-120-63.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:57:49 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:58:45 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:59:52 Guthur: The videographer said he would put them on blip.tv 17:59:52 _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 18:00:02 Guthur: he also said (and i might have misheard) that he had a 40 hour bus ride home 18:00:09 i hope he meant 4 18:00:30 hehe 18:00:37 he's got some editing to do. 18:00:58 -!- H4ns_ is now known as H4ns 18:01:06 hopefully he will send a notification to the mailing list 18:02:27 Xach: ... I wouldn't be surprised if it was 40h. Had been on one such trip once 18:06:24 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 18:08:20 what a country! 18:09:04 is lisp good for machine learning? 18:09:18 Mustansir [~Mustansir@64.125.182.32] has joined #lisp 18:09:20 i've been doing this online stanford class, introudction to AI 18:09:23 drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.135.74] has joined #lisp 18:09:31 djanatyn: Ooh. That looked interesting. 18:09:41 when they were covering all the different tree searches and networks and such, it was pretty obvious that lisp had an advantage 18:09:50 -!- drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.135.74] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:09:54 nyef: It's really great. 18:10:16 I'm learning lots of new things that I didn't know before. It's kind of difficult to keep up though, since I don't have the prerequisites. 18:11:11 has anyone here used lisp for AI? 18:11:33 what's the name of the predicate to check wherever something is a list? 18:11:45 listp 18:11:47 listp 18:14:17 nyef: yep, I'm alittle gutted I didn't see the ai-class in time 18:14:53 drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.135.74] has joined #lisp 18:15:00 Guthur: IIRC, the materials are going online for free, you only really lose out on the interaction and feedback. 18:15:43 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 18:17:45 and all the people crashing the servers trying to watch the vids at the last moment 18:17:57 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 18:18:23 -!- pavelludiq is now known as pavelpenev 18:18:55 nyef: and the letter if you complete it 18:19:12 which is only really for bragging rights 18:19:32 would have been nice to have on the CV though 18:21:01 -!- drake01__ [~drake01@115.246.135.74] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:21:35 benkard_ [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has joined #lisp 18:22:21 -!- benkard [~benkard@141.84.69.67] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:22:21 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 18:25:18 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.135.74] has joined #lisp 18:26:09 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 18:26:23 Is there a utility library or something that provides a macro that binds a var for each line in a text file? 18:26:36 I wrote one and call it for-each-line, but I'd rather use someone else's now. 18:26:49 mine was named do-lines 18:26:51 "called it", rather. 18:27:06 (must be in quicklisp) 18:28:48 -!- pavelpenev [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:29:35 what's append for elements? 18:29:43 Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-63.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 18:29:43 Tasser: concatenate 18:29:52 Tasser: for sequences, I assume you mean 18:30:01 dlowe_lt, nah, for lists :-) 18:30:03 cons? append/list (aka "don't do that") 18:30:09 -!- Kron is now known as Guest40092 18:30:41 (foo '(1 2) 3) => '(1 2 3) 18:30:42 Tasser: uh, there's the APPEND function... 18:30:47 push and nreverse in the end (aka "do that") 18:30:58 (append (list 1 2) (list 3)) 18:31:10 -!- drake01 is now known as cloak 18:31:24 (push ... (cdr (last ...))) 18:31:25 Tasser: you shouldn't use that to collect items into a list, though 18:31:31 -!- cloak [~drake01@115.246.135.74] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:31:50 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.135.74] has joined #lisp 18:34:19 dlowe_lt, but push? 18:34:41 Tasser: you shouldn't use append to collect items into a list, I meant 18:34:50 dlowe_lt, but? 18:35:43 Tasser: overterse? 18:36:13 huh? 18:36:40 exactly. 18:36:44 Tasser: use more words in your questions. 18:36:54 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-155-138.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 18:37:37 Trying to write some flatten as a bit of lisp juggling 18:38:33 easyE [ARV03j6DPv@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:08 ... So I'm looking for a way to append lists together 18:40:26 what's wrong with append? 18:40:34 appending _lists_ together is exactly what APPEND is for 18:40:39 Houl [~Miranda@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 18:41:01 Tasser: but it's not a good solution to the problem. 18:41:45 (defun flatten (struct) (cond ((null struct) NIL) ((atom struct) `(,struct)) (T (mapcan #'flatten struct)))) 18:41:45 pavelpenev [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 18:41:49 like that sort of flatten? 18:42:35 really? `(,struct) instead of (list struct)? 18:43:03 -!- troydm [~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 18:43:04 to save a couple of chars.. 18:44:04 i'm new at this. are they identical forms? 18:44:09 list is probably more readable 18:44:24 ((null struct) NIL) <- why the NIL? 18:45:10 Tasser: More explicit? 18:45:15 dsp_: they are identical, and it's the first time I see a lisper who uses backquotes correctly and has doubts about LIST vs. `(,..) 18:45:23 Tasser: that's part of the cond. ( ) 18:45:32 dsp_: yeah, they're identical 18:46:23 fair enough! i've never really scratched more below the surface 18:46:31 ahh 18:46:49 for example, setf vs setq -- still not sure which is the best form for assignment for example 18:46:50 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:46:52 rwiker [~rwiker@209.80-202-32.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:47:11 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 18:47:12 setf is a macro, if i'm not mistaken, whereas setq is not? so i guess setf would become a setq form 18:47:25 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:47:39 actually, with that test for NIL in there, (flatten '(NIL)) => () 18:47:51 I think perhaps it doesn't belong 18:48:11 are '(NIL) and '() identical? 18:48:12 dsp_: i prefer to ignore setq entirely. some people use it for "simple" assignment. 18:48:24 i mean, the car is the same of both, and so is the cdr, i think, though i am probably wrong 18:48:31 dsp_: no. '(NIL) is (cons NIL NIL), which '() is just NIL 18:48:46 aha. how does one tell them apart if the car and cdr of an empty list are NIL? 18:48:57 setq also allows you to do multiple assignments in one go; I don't think setf does that 18:49:01 an empty list doesn't have a car or a cdr 18:49:04 rwiker: it does 18:49:15 though (car NIL) => NIL in common lisp 18:49:21 dsp_: consp is one way 18:49:23 dsp_: consp, null? 18:49:27 not in scheme 18:49:30 symbolp ? 18:49:49 yeah, my mistake. i was a schemer up until recently, and have been wrapping my head around the different ways of handling empty lists 18:49:54 i guess i hadn't really thought about it enough 18:50:06 though you could argue that NIL is an empty list and thus should be flattened away 18:50:20 (defun flatten (struct) (if (listp struct) (mapcan #'flatten struct) (list struct))) ;; (flatten foo) => '(foo) might still look wrong.. 18:50:43 hrm? so it does? ok, no reason for using setq, then 18:51:04 dlowe_lt: It looks like a symbol to me. 18:51:31 rwiker: well, i think the reason some people have is communicating "i am doing a simple variable assignment here". i don't think that is a good enough reason for my tastes. 18:51:42 nyef: yeah, well. that's the trick, isn't it 18:52:00 (string= thing :nil) 18:52:12 for me, the fact that setq behaves like setf for symbol macros was the decisive argument against using setq to express simple variable assignments.. 18:52:17 dlowe_lt: No, the real trick is the games played in CMUCL and SBCL with respect to NIL, CONSes and SYMBOLs. 18:52:31 i've not really knowingly used setf in places where setq hasn't also sufficed. i think that means i've not been writing enough ;) 18:52:41 nyef: I didn't know they did anything particularly tricky 18:52:46 (with that) 18:53:42 dlowe_lt: Now you do. Feel free to examine precisely what. 18:54:22 wrt scheme, cons, car, cdr etc, this might be of interest: http://www.apl.jhu.edu/~hall/lisp/Scheme-Ballad.text 18:54:27 nyef: you won't trick me into becoming an sbcl hacker :p 18:54:37 ... yet? 18:54:43 ... so easily? 18:54:51 hehe 18:55:35 kpreid_ [~kpreid@128.153.215.89] has joined #lisp 18:55:53 nyef: I know of a working way to turn laymen into sbcl hackers. Just miss an important feature for a few years, and be good at everything else all these time :) 18:56:17 akovalenko: Clearly, floating-point traps aren't an important feature. 18:56:39 -!- kpreid_ [~kpreid@128.153.215.89] has quit [Client Quit] 18:57:22 nyef: omitted "on darwin" part is probably important in making them not important :) 18:57:58 Sure, sure... PPC was the same, I'm sure. 18:58:02 -!- drake01 [~drake01@115.246.135.74] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:58:09 now i've gone and grabbed the sbcl code from git -_- 18:58:22 a question -- what's with the literal ^L's around? 18:58:30 dsp_: Welcome to the dark side. 18:58:38 Literal form-feeds? 18:58:39 dsp_: it's page separators 18:59:04 s/it's/they're/ 18:59:08 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:59:10 ah. what uses those? 18:59:13 dsp_: emacs 18:59:16 There's some emacs function to jump to the next/previous page. 18:59:23 makes sense 18:59:37 Plus, if you ever print out the source, which people apparently used to do back in the old days... 18:59:43 dsp_: also, many other elder editors. SBCL started from CMUCL, iirc, and CMUCL... has long history? 18:59:57 ^L is a teletype control code that literalyy means "Form feed" 19:00:00 I don't know how much has been rewritten over time 19:00:17 rwiker: as well as ANSI code for that, and thus xterm as well 19:00:18 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 19:00:21 and pp^L makes them look nice 19:00:39 cheezus [~Adium@bas2-toronto36-1177696336.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:00:46 kpreid [~kpreid@Eider.wlan.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 19:00:50 rwiker: It's actually in the ASCII code set. 19:01:17 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-mgjzwqvpctcrhhhd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:59 -!- sellout- [~Adium@conference/djangocon/x-brqqcvbiojzxywga] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:04:01 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:04:13 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-kilhfnjlcpjqonam] has joined #lisp 19:04:26 drake01 [~drake01@115.246.135.74] has joined #lisp 19:05:06 -!- drake01 [~drake01@115.246.135.74] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:11:16 V-ille1 [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:11:49 -!- V-ille1 [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 19:12:00 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-235.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:13:49 ... damn, I didn't notice that Ken Olsen died this year too 19:14:26 looks like a bad year for being a computing pioneer 19:14:47 lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 19:15:58 yeah 19:16:23 TheSeparateFirst [48cf7c02@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.207.124.2] has joined #lisp 19:17:25 -!- Cloud__ [~cbolano@189.227.234.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:22:24 -!- doritos [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:22:26 ArtemRus [~Art@84.23.56.8] has joined #lisp 19:24:01 -!- todun 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all.] 20:49:35 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-101-79.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:41 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:38 hi, any suggestions for good (Linux) lisp *editor*, other than emacs? something with, how should I say, "modern" or "windows-style" default keybindings and behaviour 20:53:29 -!- Quaydon [~robert@cpe-071-068-114-143.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:53:52 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:54:04 pavelpenev [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 20:54:05 the only _other_ text editor has no windows-style bindings by default, too :-/ 20:54:12 :) 20:54:20 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-164-149.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:34 hehe, well, I never got into that, more than very basic editing (if you mean what I think you mean) 20:54:41 Neither would they make much sense there. 20:55:24 FWIW, wine comes with its own version of Notepad.exe.. 20:56:03 I'll try Kate, and maybe Notepad++ on Windows 20:56:23 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-167-159.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:56:28 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:56:29 Funny, I once clicked "open" when Opera showed a download/open/cancel requester for an app/text file, and it launched the wine notepad.exe to actually show it of all things. 20:56:41 I'd be happy with syntax highlighting, parenthesis matching and syntactic code formatting 20:56:57 hyde____: Try able. 20:57:54 hyde____: http://common-lisp.net/project/able/ 20:58:37 Last time I tried it seemed a bit unfinished, though (and seems to have stayed that way). 20:58:37 anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-51-83.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:58:52 hyde____: if you want something that is maintained and full-featured and not emacs, lispworks and the acl ide are pretty much your options. or vim. 20:59:58 kate seems to have at least some common lisp support... 21:00:14 hyde____: emacs has CUA mode, which is what most people mean with modern key bindings 21:00:15 or take on from cusp or lispdev for eclipse 21:00:20 hyde____: an editor that does not integrate the repl is worth nothing. 21:01:05 well, if you have indentation support, and you can compile single functions with a keyboard shortcut, you've come a long way. 21:01:29 sellout- [~Adium@conference/djangocon/x-gpcfjnhcgoclunrb] has joined #lisp 21:01:41 hyde____: interesting. What support does it have? (kate) 21:01:55 kate has at least syntax highlighting 21:01:56 -!- DataLinkDKT [~DataLinkD@123.208.59.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:01:57
hyde____: IMHO, it will be /well/ worth your time to learn Emacs or, if not that, vi(m) if you're planning on using UNIX-like systems in the future (and both will run just about everywhere, incl. windoze and Mac systems) 21:01:58 prxq: M-. is the feature that i would consider essentlial. 21:02:04 and it's "align" seems to do some sort of autoindenting 21:02:48 hyde____: indenting lisp is not hard, but it is also not something that just happen by magic. you want an editor that can indent common lisp properly. 21:03:01 H4ns: M-. is very, very good, but for getting stuff done, inferior-lisp mode is enough 21:03:27 prxq: under that argument, ed should be fine :) 21:03:37 it seems to do indenting properly, but not full auto-formatting (ie. changing newlines and whitespace in the middle of a line) 21:03:56 DataLinkDKT [~DataLinkD@123.208.59.133] has joined #lisp 21:04:00 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:04:08 -!- Guest40092 [~Kron@129-97-120-63.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 21:04:11 -!- DataLinkDKT [~DataLinkD@123.208.59.133] has quit [Client Quit] 21:04:15 -!- Cam_ [~textual@trivialand/staff/Cam] has quit [Quit: Textual] 21:04:24 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:04:44 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:48 *prxq* used inferior-lisp mode for a long time 21:05:04 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:05:21 wnewman did too 21:05:54 ...just going to learn a bit of lisp, let's say as a tribute, I think Kate + xterm will work well enough for the basics and "small stuff" 21:06:34 *akovalenko* once started to write slime-like thing for TCL, but in a couple of hours I realized that I'm writing a mini-lisp on its server side, and decided to switch my "native programming language" instead :) 21:07:31 hyde____: fair enough. O am actually surprised by kate's support for common lisp. 21:07:39 s/O/I/ 21:07:47 todun [~todun@seas558.wireless-pennnet.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 21:08:37 thumbflip [~cmsimon@static-50-43-55-69.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:48 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-096-039.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:08:59 prxq: kate has syntax files for unbelievable amount of languages... I wonder who has made them all... and I think the syntax files also describe stuff like indentation and folding rules, not just highlighting 21:09:51 yeah, I started typing defun and up came a little popup with the full word. 21:10:24 -!- p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-uwxtgcjptyyhuxxh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:10:39 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:10:48 hyde____: does it have paren matching? I can't seem to find it 21:11:15 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:21 it highlights the matching pair... 21:11:39 the color choice is just... bad it seems... more like "lowlighting" 21:12:13 man that is... faint 21:13:38 it's configurable 21:14:19 hyde____: in emacs, in the most basic lisp package, you have keyboard shortcuts to compile and load the file, and to send a definition to the running image that you attach to it. That's incredibly useful. 21:14:56 mcox [~user@203-206-24-113.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:15:36 Well, I was about to say that sbcl.org was down, but now it isn't. 21:17:33 hyde____: maybe you can emulate that with pipe to terminal, as I see kate has that. 21:18:36 -!- gensym` is now known as gensym``` 21:19:03 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-161.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:19:14 -!- gensym`` is now known as churib 21:21:53 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 21:21:54 -!- nicdev_ [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:22:32 -!- lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:59 prxq: hmm, so it does... let's see 21:23:00 lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 21:23:29 hyde____: but in any case, that's a far cry from what emacs does 21:24:40 -!- sellout- [~Adium@conference/djangocon/x-gpcfjnhcgoclunrb] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:28:17 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:28:59 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:30:02 hyde____: which lisp are you using? 21:30:14 well, I installed both clisp and sbcl 21:30:53 these are ok. 21:30:55 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.28.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:31:14 ...and now I've got 3 online books to choose from 21:31:20 "I installed both clisp and sbcl.. but don't use any" 21:31:22 -!- thumbflip [~cmsimon@static-50-43-55-69.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:31:49 akovalenko: I'm in the "hello world" phase, so it doesn't really matter much yet :-) 21:32:49 hyde____: which books? I ask because some of the books out there aren't good for starting out, but it's not immediately obvious 21:32:54 Anyone have a rule of thumb for when to use keywords vs strings for associative structures (hash-tables/alists) 21:32:55 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has joined #lisp 21:33:24 jasom: symbols when you can. Strings when you'd have to find-symbol anyway. 21:33:26 jasom: use strings when the keys come from an external source and need never be literals in the source code. 21:34:11 jasom: if the keys appear in source code, use symbols. make sure that you don't intern arbitary strings coming from outside sources (use find-symbol instead) 21:34:31 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:35:18 prxq: Successful Lisp, Practical Common Lisp, The Common Lisp Cookbook 21:35:41 -!- benny [~benny@i577A869C.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:06 hyde____: you can find Land of Lisp as a download too 21:36:27 thumbflip [~cmsimon@static-50-43-55-69.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:32 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 21:37:53 hyde____: these are pretty decent. PCL is pretty good. 21:38:15 -!- churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has left #lisp 21:38:27 churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 21:38:38 benny [~benny@i577A869C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:38:48 starting with "hello, world" instead of, say, "combinator calculus primitives" is a good indication in favor of PCL :) 21:39:01 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:39:02 the others might give a slightly wrong impression, as the lisp world has been moving on 21:39:19 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.112.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:35 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d013924.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: good night] 21:39:43 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:40:16 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-159-125.as43234.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:40:37 -!- Cam [~x@trivialand/staff/Cam] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:40:43 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-159-125.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:24 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:41:35 i'm likely doing something wrong, yet still. doesn't ecl understand the fixnum type? ecl doesn't compile some code that sbcl does compile. it uses fixnums for declarations, mostly. 21:41:53 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:43:00 the error is "no class named fixnum" if that rings any bells. doesn't sound like it'd be in a declaration though. 21:43:15 -!- lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:17 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:43:50 sellout- [~Adium@conference/djangocon/x-bdqjdkdxaqxgltlx] has joined #lisp 21:44:20 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-193-219.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:46:00 doritos [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:20 -!- pavelpenev [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:47:24 akovalenko: well, by "hello world phase", I meant more the phase to get the basics in place, such as editing source, running it, running lisp in interactive mode... I've even done something (programming 101) with Scheme in some pretty distant past... the robots/daleks game IIRC :-) 21:48:56 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:49:44 p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-nrkkkgwixgratxgk] has joined #lisp 21:50:08 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.176.238.68] has quit [Quit: och aye, the noo] 21:50:24 -!- doritos [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:51:20 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:52:15 -!- coderdad [~coderdad@wsip-70-164-198-85.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:52:48 ah sorry, i had used fixnum in a method definition. that's not allowed by the standard, my bad. 21:52:52 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:53:19 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-51-83.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:55:57 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@Eider.wlan.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: Offline] 21:56:05 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:58:00 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:58:02 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:58:47 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:59:01 pavelpenev [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has joined #lisp 21:59:47 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.236.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:59:48 madnificent: you can use integer, though i guess it doesn't help if you're after some optimization instead of discrimination 22:00:09 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:00:51 -!- sellout- [~Adium@conference/djangocon/x-bdqjdkdxaqxgltlx] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:01:47 -!- pavelpenev [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:51 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 22:02:17 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-250-19.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:36 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-45-21.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:04:28 acelent: it somewhat works without it. but ecl didn't want to compile with threads on my ubuntu box... so sadly, i can't easily run my stuff under ecl. no biggy though, sbcl works fine. 22:05:01 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:06:48 madnificent: why it didn't want to build with threads? 22:07:10 p_l: it erred out whilst compiling, do you want me to try it again and paste the error somewhere? 22:07:30 (i'll have to rebuild, so it'll take a while on this slow box) 22:07:45 madnificent: not right now, just wondered if you had the error handy 22:08:26 i'll try to rebuild, might be good to have the documentation around in case someone cares more for it than i do 22:08:33 anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-54-186.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 22:09:26 p_l: i should ./configure --enable-threads for it, correct? if not, then i did something dull 22:10:28 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:11:52 madnificent: I think so. Usually it worked fine for me, but I rarely build it these days since it got into Arch64 main repo 22:13:21 you and your sensible distribution 22:14:02 as it happens, the only time I tried to install Ubuntu from its installer, the thing couldn't resolve the dependencies of the packages on install CD, so... 22:14:34 Single anectodal evidence  good for proving homeopathy :) 22:14:48 lol 22:15:27 well, it did put me off. And their happy continuation of what RedHat started with D-Bus put me off forever 22:15:50 what's the argument against d-bus? 22:16:25 It's unnecessarily complicated, hard to access the unix way (pipes, anyone) and is (or was) not network transparent. 22:16:48 And replicates things already having been done well for years. 22:16:51 madnificent: not against D-Bus, more against the way it is used, and how the end result breaks system semantics horribly, breaking integration 22:17:16 it's like using a horrible monstrosity to cover an easily repaired hole 22:17:28 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:40 ah, that's the common way things are fixed under linux. 22:17:50 fixed, yes 22:17:53 unfortunately. 22:18:29 madnificent: I think in this case at least part of the reasoning used was "but we don't want to be restricted to linux" 22:19:09 cause linux managed to get necessary parts over time even without interest (and could have it much earlier) 22:19:20 and that sounds a lot like a decision management would make if they wanted to cover their asses 22:19:48 doritos [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:58 My dog tells me (by means of T-bus) he wants a walk. 22:20:08 p_l: odd, i think the build succeeded this time 22:20:09 madnificent: it's plainly a lack of perspective and thinking about the whole design from the point of existing architecture 22:20:20 madnificent: maybe you had something weird left over 22:21:49 a glitch here or there. i did do a make clean though. but it might be 22:22:17 and yes, it seems architectural design leads to bloatware if you aren't cautious. 22:23:39 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:23:54 madnificent: especially if you do it in chunks that are completely unrelated 22:24:06 and not because of functional independence 22:24:33 oudeis [~oudeis@210.21.226.34] has joined #lisp 22:25:39 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:25:56 DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@63-231-108-126.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:00 perhaps the designers had a lack of experience 22:28:35 -!- todun [~todun@seas558.wireless-pennnet.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: :q] 22:28:52 -!- felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: felideon] 22:29:29 -!- Davidbrcz__ [~david@ANantes-151-1-7-180.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:36:27 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:36:34 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 22:39:04 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:42:24 -!- tsuru`` is now known as tsuru 22:42:49 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:43:06 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.79] has joined #lisp 22:44:19 -!- EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@190.244.27.236] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6-rc2] 22:46:13 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 22:46:35 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 22:46:55 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:53:31 -!- jlaire [~jlaire@a88-115-181-148.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:54:42 xwolf- [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 22:54:55 hello. is anyone is using drakma library with clisp, are you getting this condition? (drakma:http-request "http://www.google.com") NODELAY in SOCKET-CONNECT is unsupported. 22:55:57 it's a continuable condition, if I continue twice I get the html source. but it's still annoying 22:56:35 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:09 xwolf-: i get it too. i think i've seen it mentioned on the usocket list. not sure though. 22:57:17 xwolf-: my usual option is to not use clisp. 22:57:20 xwolf-: (handler-bind ((.... #'continue)) ) will save some time :) 22:57:54 thanks :), I was about to ask how to handle that automatically 23:00:52 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-45-22-54.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:12 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:03:24 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:05:35 well this is odd. if I do do continue twice in SLIME rather than in the terminal running clisp it breaks SWANK connection 23:07:13 it's printing the string that is breaking the swank connection 23:07:36 (string that drakma:http-request returns) 23:08:15 xwolf-: which slime-net-coding-system do you use? 23:08:33 utf-8-unix is probably what you want.. 23:08:57 tali713` [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:59 well, I should have asked "are there non-ascii characters in the result" first :) 23:09:07 -!- tali713` [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:13 there are, I'm getting condition in the terminal 23:09:26 #\u0161 23:10:07 -!- DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@63-231-108-126.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:10:35 #\u0161 is not even latin-1, so... try M-x customize-variable slime-net-coding-system , set it to utf-8-unix and try again. 23:10:58 (reconnect after changing slime-net-coding-system) 23:11:28 nice it works now :) 23:11:38 thanks again 23:12:28 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:12:49 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-85-72.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:13:01 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-85-72.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 23:13:19 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:14:30 jlaire [~jlaire@a88-115-181-148.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 23:14:50 -!- jaminja [~jaminja@unaffiliated/jaminja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:15:15 -!- jlaire [~jlaire@a88-115-181-148.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 23:15:25 -!- ngz [~user@201.144.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:16:20 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.54.87] has joined #lisp 23:16:24 DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@184.99.15.205] has joined #lisp 23:16:41 jlaire [~jlaire@a88-115-181-148.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 23:17:04 -!- thumbflip [~cmsimon@static-50-43-55-69.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:21:04 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 23:24:05 -!- cheezus [~Adium@bas2-toronto36-1177696336.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:25:50 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-45-22-54.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:27:59 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-54-186.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:31:18 -!- Houl [~Miranda@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 23:35:20 -!- mcox [~user@203-206-24-113.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:36:50 thumbflip [~cmsimon@static-50-43-55-69.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:26 cheezus [~Adium@bas2-toronto36-1177696336.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:42:09 triliyn [~desmond@76-206-56-151.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:37 anvandare [~anvandare@78-23-214-6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 23:48:36 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 23:49:01 todun [~todun@173-15-156-69-BusName-Philadelphia.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-106-139.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:53:30 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.227.234.39] has joined #lisp 23:56:00 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:56:41 skalawag [~user@c75-111-9-153.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp