00:01:58 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-160-244-114.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:59 -!- dwim [~dwim@212.Red-83-61-34.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:05:28 cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.216] has joined #lisp 00:05:28 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.216] has quit [Changing host] 00:05:28 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 00:07:17 -!- waveman__ [~tim@124.170.43.134] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:07:58 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@pool-74-108-152-36.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:22 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 00:21:34 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26:19 leo2007 [~leo@123.123.255.140] has joined #lisp 00:27:16 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@219.136.212.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:27:26 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:30:37 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-182-114.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:39:42 gaidal [~gaidal@58.62.105.112] has joined #lisp 00:45:33 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:51:47 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:52:40 ISF [~ivan@201.82.136.131] has joined #lisp 00:54:10 superflit [~superflit@71-208-206-27.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:45 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.51.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:09:39 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.123.255.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:17:43 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:19:02 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:20:00 RomyEatsDrupal_ [~stickycak@pool-108-14-220-36.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:23 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@pool-74-108-152-36.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:22:24 -!- RomyEatsDrupal_ is now known as RomyEatsDrupal 01:22:29 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4A55.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24:46 hikarudo_ [~hikarudo@189.26.24.150.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 01:25:55 -!- hikarudo [~hikarudo@200.175.194.51.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:25:55 -!- hikarudo_ is now known as hikarudo 01:26:28 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:29:55 I was surprised to see that CommonQt wasn't mentioned on http://www.cliki.net/Current%20recommended%20libraries, given how fondly it's recommended in this channel, so I added it. However I note that http://www.cliki.net/CommonQt is pretty empty, maybe a fan could give it some love (stassats?). 01:31:23 -!- CaZe [~yrt@unaffiliated/y354c] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:31:28 CaZe [~yrt@unaffiliated/y354c] has joined #lisp 01:32:18 In not-so-related news, I find "Here are (probably incomplete) list of libraries that are available under Quicklisp: cl-containers" (and no other libraries mentioned) on http://www.cliki.net/Quicklisp pretty weird... How do I see a page's history? I thought I'd find a link to it in the footer... 01:33:53 hikarudo_ [~hikarudo@186.212.86.167] has joined #lisp 01:33:58 Hexstream: why are you surprised? 01:34:31 Xach: About what? 01:35:09 -!- hikarudo [~hikarudo@189.26.24.150.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:35:09 -!- hikarudo_ is now known as hikarudo 01:35:20 what is meant by "It does not compose with other metaclasses atm." http://paste.lisp.org/display/85461 01:35:20 01:35:41 what is a composable metaclass? 01:36:31 I've also seen this term referenced by DrewC in his lisp-on-lines manual 01:36:46 (defclass my-new-metaclass (metaclass-a metaclass-b) ...) not working very nicely. 01:37:55 sykopomp: i got the not working yet part. (-: 01:39:31 So for the defclass form of my-new-metaclass assuming it _did_ work does one have to provide a (:metaclass ) class-option? 01:40:14 you use :metaclass for classes that use that metaclass as their class metaobject class 01:40:25 at the metaclass level, you just write classes 01:41:33 arg sorry i didn't actually read that the name of that class contained "metaclass" 01:41:35 Xach: No, seriously. There are 3 things I'm surprised about and I'm not sure which one you're asking about: I'm surprised about the CommonQt non-mention, surprised about the cl-containers reference on the Quicklisp cliki page, and I'm surprised that there's no link to the history in the footer. Since the first of these is the one I explicitly said I was "surprised" about logically that would be the one, but I'd be surprised you'r 01:42:06 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 01:42:41 so for a metaclass to be composable the composition occurs in the "metaclass layer" 01:47:45 e.g. a subclass of STANDARD-CLASS would use (defclass my-standard-composed-class () ()(:metaclass my-new-metaclass)) and the protocols for metaclasses METACLASS-A METACLASS-B would be mediated in lieu of my-new-metaclass? 01:48:55 (defclass my-new-class (class-of-metaclass-a class-of-metaclass-b) ()) can also cause problems... Though because of VALIDATE-SUPERCLASS you can't really miss that one ;) 01:50:23 thats the part where i always get really lost. 01:50:46 mon_key: Me too, so don't feel alone in that. 01:51:02 mon_key: have you read AMOP? 01:51:14 Doesn't the defclass form of class-of-metaclass-b require (metaclass metaclass-b) class-option? 01:51:24 sykopomp: As best I can. 01:51:46 kfrag [~patryk@141.212.182.121] has joined #lisp 01:57:55 mon_key: That makes no sense, that's circular... You can't have metaclass-b as a superclass of class-of-metaclass-b, since metaclass-b requires the pre-existence of class-of-metaclass-b. (Ah wait, maybe with a forward-referenced-class... I just broke my brain :() standard-object does something like that but it's "cheating"... 01:58:23 -!- Amyn [~abennama@m328eth.crans.org] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:58:26 -!- BrianRice [~water@97-126-59-7.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:58:44 Hexstream: heh, go look at how smalltalk does it sometime 01:58:57 BrianRice [~water@97-126-59-7.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:10 oGMo: Can you give an executive summary/appetizer? 02:00:19 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@pool-108-14-220-36.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: RomyEatsDrupal] 02:00:53 Hexstream: I was assuming that metaclass-b was above the standard-class class-of-metaclass-b 02:01:07 Hexstream: a simplified version is that Object is an instance of Class, and Class is an instance of Object 02:02:02 except it's more complicated due to metaclasses 02:02:05 oGMo: Isn't MOP-based CLOS very much like that?... 02:02:15 Hexstream: not really 02:02:28 e.g. a class instance of metaclass-b 02:05:42 standard-class is an instance of standard-class, which has class precedence list standard-class, class, standard-object, t 02:05:50 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.122.177] has quit [Quit: marsell] 02:06:13 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_std_cl.htm 02:06:17 The class standard-object is an instance of standard-class and is a 02:06:17 superclass of every class that is an instance of standard-class 02:06:17 except itself. 02:06:36 oGMo: standard-object is an instance of standard-class, and standard-class is a subclass of standard-object... Isn't that circular in a similar way? Also, every instance of of class T, which is itself an instance of built-in-class, which is an instance of standard-class, which is an instance of itself ad-infinimum... (I might have screwed up somewhere because that's a bit confusing). 02:07:09 Oops, sorry, I was focusing on my buffer and didn't bother to read the messages... 02:08:00 Hexstream: ISTR that AMOP explains the circularity away. 02:08:19 mon_key: Yeah. 02:08:58 Hexstream: though it doesn't help stop the brain bleeding (-: 02:09:00 It's just a matter of special-casing standard-class and the class-slots slot, basically. 02:09:06 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:09:17 mon_key: yes. The tl;dr version is that you construct standard-class by hand during bootstrapping 02:09:32 mon_key: if you're curious about more details and want to read code instead of consuming AMOP, you can check out Closette. 02:09:38 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.152.189] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:09:56 *sykopomp* also had a lot of fun figuring out what a metaobject protocol for a prototype-based system would look like. 02:12:29 That kinda invalidates one of the central assumptions of the CLOS MOP: That class changes won't happen very frequently. (But maybe changing an object's prototype also happens infrequently after all?...) 02:13:05 v8's optimisations rely on that assumption 02:13:18 (and so do Sheeple's optimisations) 02:14:17 sykopomp: I guess what i'd really like to know is if anyone knows of examples of standard code which defines CLOS objects but which have the class option (:metaclass ) 02:14:45 "standard" code? 02:14:54 er "standard code" meant standard libraries 02:15:18 mon_key: composing metaclasses seems tricky in general, but having (:metaclass ) isn't really very different from having (:metaclass ) 02:15:20 Again, what do you mean by "standard" libraries? ;P 02:15:43 -!- hikarudo [~hikarudo@186.212.86.167] has quit [Quit: hikarudo] 02:15:49 e.g. something that exists and runs in the wild. preferably with a toy example. 02:15:59 Anyway, I'm working on a library that would fit your definition, I think. 02:16:47 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:18:11 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-184-222.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:25 I don't get it why you are so hang up on composed? I don't actually know any, real life metaclass example that works very well is qt-class in commonqt 02:18:27 type-maker? 02:18:58 here is example implementing virtual (always calculated) slots: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/LWUG/html/lwuser-216.htm 02:19:20 mon_key: Eh, not that one I'm talking about, though type-maker will use the MOP too... In fact from now on I expect most or all of my projects to rely on the MOP, directly or indirectly. 02:19:37 maxm-: thanks. 02:20:32 It's called clos-featuresets. You define a featureset class of metaclass standard-featureset (or so), then you can add "features" to the featureset. Then you can make instances of the featureset. Basically the featureset is just a wrapped bit-vector, with one bit per feature this featureset-class can have, representing if the feature is "present" in this featureset. 02:22:02 bit-vector is just one possible representation (implemented by a mixin), but there are other possible representations. The other one I'm thinking about is a "sparse-featureset-class" that contains a list of just the features the featureset has, which is more space-efficient if you have tons of very sparse featuresets... 02:22:22 Hexstream: heh I have simular thing in cl-maxlib, it lets you add a class to an object dynamically (it caches the resulting mixin classes so its as fast as defining mixings every time) 02:22:26 Hexstream: cool. Have you discussed this elswehere already or am i dejavu? 02:23:01 The really neat thing is that you can continue adding or removing features from the featureset-class after having instantiated featuresets, and the featuresets will be updated automatically and transparently, perhaps repacked to "reuse" bits... 02:23:06 -!- cgo [~user@99-123-152-51.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:42 maxm-: Hah, I'm (was) thinking of making a library like that, too, for addition/removal of classes at runtime. 02:24:13 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p54839DF8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:24:37 mon_key: I don't remember discussing this elsewhere... Not clos-featuresets, certainly, it's a pretty new project. 02:25:01 (defun add-stats-tracking-to-obj (obj) (change-class 'obj (make-mixin-class (class-of obj) 'stats-tracker))) 02:25:02 02:25:18 basically allow you to make anonymous classes at runtime and caches them 02:25:27 OK. so its in the air. 02:26:03 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:06 Yuuhi [benni@p5483DBB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:17 cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.216] has joined #lisp 02:26:17 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.216] has quit [Changing host] 02:26:17 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 02:26:40 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:41 Yes, I think so. The MOP will absolutely EXPLODE in importance within a few years. 02:27:04 I was thinking more along the bit-vector thing. 02:27:44 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:27:46 mon_key: Oh. Well, clos-featuresets should help that explode a bit, too :) (a "bit", LOL?) 02:27:58 Hexstream: are you serious about EXPLODE? 02:28:41 mon_key: Seriously, let me have a look at the list of my libraries just a minute... 02:29:50 maxm-: with-series-expander is crazy! 02:30:15 mon_key: yea its pretty insane.. I handled around 12 gigs of tick data with it 02:31:17 see the tests.lisp on how its used 02:31:23 ok 02:33:11 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:11 JZs [~jzs@60-240-164-191.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:34:54 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.84] has joined #lisp 02:34:54 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.84] has quit [Changing host] 02:34:54 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 02:35:43 mon_key: Hum. I must be missing some, I can only think of 4 of my libraries that will definitely benefit from MOPification right now: clos-featuresets, formval, flexiconf, type-maker. However, I plan to make extensive use of these libraries in my other projects, particularly clos-featuresets and type-maker. 02:36:49 thats alotamopa... 02:36:52 Particularly, Loopless 2.0 will depend, directly or indirectly, on clos-featuresets, and 100% of my projects will depend on Loopless 2.0 ;P 02:36:56 mon_key: what's with-series-expander? 02:37:06 https://github.com/7max/cl-maxlib/blob/master/defseries.lisp 02:37:19 mon_key: When all's said and done I'll be a MOP master :) 02:38:01 I lack context 02:38:15 that code is a bit embarrassing, but people were asking for how to handle multi-gig packed data efficiently, so I released it, it still works pretty good 02:38:27 Ralith: I mean just look at it! 02:39:03 there is a great deal of code without an clear examples or obvious intuitive interfaces 02:39:08 Oh, haha. I forgot process-declarations, process-lambda-lists and dependent-initforms. 02:39:24 tdlr is: (defseries) is like defstruct, but stores data per-column in typed arrays, so that you can pack unsigned-bytes 8 and unsigned-bytes 32's efficiently 02:39:34 and has very insane iteration macro :-) 02:39:41 maxm-: very 02:39:46 :) 02:40:14 maxm-: oh, I think I see: a row-by-row accessor for column-major data? 02:40:35 allocated in contiguous memory? 02:40:49 Hexstream: do let me know if you ever publish clos-featuresets 02:41:25 Ralith: yea... (with--series (s :at i) (loop for i from 0 below (series-size s) (collect col-a col-b col-c))) 02:41:55 mon_key: You'll see it in the quicklisp-projects stream :) 02:42:00 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:42:28 Hexstream: Great. 02:42:44 maxm-: neat; sounds pretty useful for bulk data processing. 02:42:44 -!- JZs [~jzs@60-240-164-191.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:42:55 Ralith: thats what its for, stock/tick data 02:42:58 JZs [~jzs@60-240-164-191.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:42:59 maxm-: Hexstream: sykopomp: thanks for the input. 02:43:27 is this attached to a system handling real money? 02:43:41 no, but I'm working on one 02:43:49 doing the charting app now 02:45:38 scaphe [~soaexpert@201-95-84-139.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 02:47:02 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 02:50:35 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:51:26 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:48 cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.172] has joined #lisp 02:51:48 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.172] has quit [Changing host] 02:51:48 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 02:56:27 Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:11 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 03:01:27 el-maxo_ [~max@p5DE8C915.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:41 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-155-34.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:48 -!- el-maxo [~max@p5790F5E2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:03:13 qeed [~qeed@adsl-98-85-47-55.mco.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:26 is there any builtin that unflattens one level of a list in lisp? 03:04:22 -!- parabolize [~paraboliz@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:05:29 parabolize [~paraboliz@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:58 -!- JZs [~jzs@60-240-164-191.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 03:08:35 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has joined #lisp 03:09:28 -!- BrianRice [~water@97-126-59-7.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:09:40 neoesque [~neoesque@220-133-153-203.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:50 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-184-222.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 03:09:55 BrianRice [~water@97-126-59-7.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:45 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@220-133-153-203.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:11:05 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 03:17:58 qeed: (let ((list (list 1 2 3))) (list list)) --> ((1 2 3)) 03:20:43 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:20:43 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 03:20:43 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:28:40 is there any tutorial on how to think recursively, im having trouble expressing algorithms that need 2 or more variables to manage stuff 03:29:21 if recursion feels difficult, just use LOOP. 03:29:49 qeed: "The Little Schemer" is the best introduction to recursion, IMO. 03:30:04 thanks 03:31:23 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:34:03 pnathan [~user@64.126.142.148] has joined #lisp 03:37:20 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:37:38 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:44:53 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:32 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:49:27 doesthiswork [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:58 I just made my first custom control structure :) 03:51:09 And what does it do? 03:53:09 it's an extended IF, so when the body of the IF is done you can do some more conditional execution without having to explicitly set a flag 03:53:47 "extended-if" "also" and "also-else" 03:54:37 *pnathan* ponders 03:54:42 Have some sample code? 03:54:55 implementation or usage? 03:54:59 Usage. 03:59:00 (if (typep seq 'list) (setf seq (coerce seq 'vector))) 03:59:08 (shuffle seq) 03:59:36 (also (setf seq (coerce seq 'list))) 03:59:45 if should be extended if 03:59:59 I forgot that enter is send 04:00:58 So is shuffle part of the extended? 04:01:05 no 04:01:20 It's a function to shuffle a sequence 04:01:25 daniel___ [~daniel@p5B3260E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:41 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 04:01:59 what do you mean 'without having to explicitly set a flag'? 04:02:00 Sure, but I was wondering if it was sequenced as part of teh extended-if, or if it just happened after the e-if. 04:02:22 it happened after the if ended 04:02:55 oh 04:03:11 What happens if you do (e-if ...) (e-if ...) (also ... ) 04:03:14 and then the "also" executed because the test part of the if had been 04:03:16 true 04:03:40 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082B004.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:03:41 it defaults to the most recently exited extended if 04:03:48 Ok. 04:03:49 so you can nest them without problem 04:03:51 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.136.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:04:22 *pnathan* doesn't think it's something *he 04:04:45 *pnathan* *he'd* use, but it's cool nontheless. 04:10:07 gaidal_ [~gaidal@58.62.241.199] has joined #lisp 04:11:43 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.62.105.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:12:22 what I mean by "without having to explicitly set a flag" is that the way I would normally do this is by recoding the value an expression into a variable, testing it in an if, doing some stuff that I always want to do, and then checking the value of the variable I set earlier to figure out if I should do something more or not. 04:13:00 -!- karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:15:07 karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:16:47 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:18:01 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:18:36 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has joined #lisp 04:23:54 sharps [~hazel@121-72-240-85.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:53 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 04:26:33 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:32:34 -!- kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:32:57 -!- qeed [~qeed@adsl-98-85-47-55.mco.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:38:21 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:39:24 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@care.boinkor.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:40:12 antifuchs [~foobar@care.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:39 nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:54 ugoubuntu [~ugoubuntu@118.113.146.5] has joined #lisp 04:44:48 rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:58 -!- scaphe [~soaexpert@201-95-84-139.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Quit: scaphe] 04:48:01 what7h3 [~what7h3@cpe-66-108-187-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:50:22 -!- ugoubuntu [~ugoubuntu@118.113.146.5] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:50:32 ugoubuntu [~ugoubuntu@118.113.146.5] has joined #lisp 04:56:20 frhodes [~user@75-173-67-252.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:39 (lisp) 04:58:58 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 04:59:11 -!- frhodes [~user@75-173-67-252.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:06:07 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:51 -!- cheezus [~Adium@70.50.58.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:15:43 wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-216.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:16:31 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 05:16:39 -!- pnathan [~user@64.126.142.148] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:18:15 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:39 pnathan [~user@64.126.142.148] has joined #lisp 05:18:47 xwolf- [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 05:19:17 hello. how do I declare a C function that takes a function with CFFI? 05:19:39 xwolf-: worst case, pretend it's a void *. 05:19:40 what type should I put as a function pointer? 05:19:55 pkhuong so :pointer ? 05:20:24 that's theoretically wrong but practically good enough. 05:21:14 ok good enough 05:22:01 just curious why is it theoretically wrong? 05:22:51 function pointers are not guaranteed to be compatible with data pointers. 05:23:37 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:23:45 They could, for instance, take up two words: one for the address and another for the bank. 05:24:36 I guess it'd take a very esoteric platform where that is true? 05:25:01 -!- wildnux [~wildnux@68-191-210-216.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:25:37 I can't think of any in active use. 05:26:22 maybe an embedded-oriented platform like PIC. 05:27:19 -!- wishbone4 [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:28:46 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:30:52 -!- kfrag [~patryk@141.212.182.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:33:49 unfortunately no lisp there 05:34:30 xwolf-: plenty of lisps there. 05:34:37 really? 05:35:00 sure. Mostly schemes. 05:35:14 had no idea 05:37:25 -!- dto [~dto@96.252.89.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:41:52 -!- pnathan [~user@64.126.142.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:47:04 Didn't 286's in "medium" mode have 32-bit function pointers but only 16-bit data pointers? 05:47:37 Does CFFI have a way to pin a vector? 05:47:59 Ralith: with-pointer-to-vector-data 05:48:19 is there any way to do that without limited scope? 05:50:12 Ralith: start a new thread that will run w-p-t-v-d forever 05:50:25 :P 05:50:48 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:50:53 is there a way that isn't silly? 05:53:24 Ralith: it's not silly at all. Probably any conservative (and partially-conservative) GC can be modified to provide some registration API for unmovable objects, but I've never seen it in actual CL implementations. In many cases, the thread trick is exactly *how* I would do it (on SBCL). 05:56:02 -!- xwolf- [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (EOF)] 05:56:31 xwolf- [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 06:00:15 akovalenko: it's an absurd amount of overhead to toggle an implementation-specific flag. 06:01:01 Ralith: there is usually no flag :) 06:01:07 oh? 06:01:36 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:48 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:04:27 what is there, then? 06:05:49 -!- Harag [~phil@41.146.231.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:08:13 well, on SBCL+gencgc , with-pinned-objects just ensures that a pointer to object is present in the (numeric) stack, so the _page_ containing the object will not be moved.. 06:08:25 is there portable method to see if there is a method for specific parameter types? 06:08:25 note that pinning an object keeps it alive as well. 06:08:36 Might as well just use malloc. 06:09:57 ..on CCL, btw, my advice is likely to fail 'cause CCL's with-pointer-to-ivector just prohibits GC for its body extent altogether 06:10:43 ie something like (defmethod foobar ((type (eql 'whatever)) (s string))... Is there a (is-specialized-p #'foobar '(whatever string)) 06:15:19 pkhuong: what I want is an object I can both pass a pointer of to C code, and manipulate via standard CL accessors,. 06:15:44 using malloc precludes the latter 06:15:46 Ralith: along with manual memory management. 06:16:22 that's a prerequeisite of passing persistent pointers of things to C, yeah 06:16:24 istr fe[nl]ix working on a portability library for static vectors. 06:16:35 sweet! 06:16:48 I woul dlike to find out mor eabout that 06:17:06 unfortunately I need to get some sleep before when he seems to get on; perhaps I'll catch him tomorrow 06:17:40 slash_ [~unknown@p54A8FE62.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:00 06:19:04 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.45.15] has joined #lisp 06:19:16 hm 06:19:21 seems either dead or done. 06:20:38 -!- nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:20:59 it's in quicklisp, and Xach seems to be proactive about trimming dead code, so I assume the latter. 06:21:07 pkhuong: thanks! 06:21:24 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-155-34.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:24:12 nostoi [~nostoi@73.Red-79-151-107.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:23 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:35:52 -!- sharps [~hazel@121-72-240-85.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:38:14 Relatedly, does anyone have suggestions for how I might usefully bind/wrap a C API which takes a void* pointer and later provides that same pointer back to a callback with the intention that that pointer be used to refer to something along the lines of a C++ class? 06:40:23 Ralith: pun an integer and use that as a key in a dictionary. 06:40:59 oo, good call, thanks 06:41:03 should've thought of that 06:42:52 -!- what7h3 [~what7h3@cpe-66-108-187-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 06:44:19 Are there any circumstances under which SBCL will inline CLOS object slot access? 06:45:07 you'll get more efficient accesses when slot-value isn't overridden. 06:53:28 answering my own questions, I can portably figure it out trough mop, #'geteric-function, (generic-function-methods), (method-specializers) and (eql-specializer-object) 06:53:33 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:01:29 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 07:03:55 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-48-195.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:03:55 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-48-195.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:03:55 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:06:01 how can I get cffi:foreign-pointer out of an int? 07:06:45 Dennis Ritchie is dead! 07:07:10 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:07:10 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:08:55 -!- darkerberos [~darkerber@2001:2f8:1c:a515:20b:dbff:fe51:33b7] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:09:16 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-197-154.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:01 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-240-217-89.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:11:36 BrianRice` [~water@174-31-153-63.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:20 -!- BrianRice [~water@97-126-59-7.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 07:13:20 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 07:14:57 -!- karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:15:21 karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:18:33 H4ns [5b3d4968@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.73.104] has joined #lisp 07:19:16 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@ip21-159.200.109.crimea.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:22:15 cheezus [~Adium@70.50.58.10] has joined #lisp 07:23:16 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@73.Red-79-151-107.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:24:29 -!- cheezus [~Adium@70.50.58.10] has quit [Client Quit] 07:24:52 cheezus [~Adium@70.50.58.10] has joined #lisp 07:25:18 -!- doritos [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:26:37 -!- cheezus [~Adium@70.50.58.10] has quit [Client Quit] 07:34:52 cheezus [~Adium@70.50.58.10] has joined #lisp 07:38:43 hm do I have to write a C wrapper function to cast an int to a cffi:foreign-pointer? 07:38:46 Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:40 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-96-235.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:44:13 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:44:18 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-168-54.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:44:18 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #lisp 07:44:46 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-168-54.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:50 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 07:44:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-35.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:45:31 Athas [~athas@ip1.c291.frb32.cust.comxnet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:46:28 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 07:46:57 -!- easyE [n1ij34PBru@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:47:55 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@ool-457138a9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:06 -!- Intensity [jzHEXplkTf@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:49:46 leo2007 [~leo@123.123.255.140] has joined #lisp 07:49:58 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:52:50 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.51.30] has joined #lisp 07:53:35 -!- karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:53:58 karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:55:19 sharps [~hazel@121-72-240-85.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:07 xwolf-: in sbcl it will be (sap-int 1234) 07:59:46 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p54A8FE62.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:59:52 err other way around (sb-impl::int-sap 1234) 08:00:40 xwolf-: cffi wrapper appears to be (cffi:make-pointer) 08:03:38 kleppari_ [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 08:04:00 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:04:20 billstcalir [~billstcla@p-74-209-21-225.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:01 -!- cheezus [~Adium@70.50.58.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:05:18 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:05:33 that's it cheers! 08:06:50 -!- sharps [~hazel@121-72-240-85.cable.telstraclear.net] has left #lisp 08:07:03 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@ool-457138a9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: RomyEatsDrupal] 08:07:25 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:08:25 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:08:45 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has 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[~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:13:47 -!- cfy is now known as cfy2 10:13:49 -!- cfy2 is now known as cfy 10:14:47 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:15:03 cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.172] has joined #lisp 10:15:13 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.172] has quit [Changing host] 10:15:13 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 10:25:48 -!- gaidal_ is now known as gaidal 10:25:58 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-177-201-46.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:40:48 mperillo [~manlio@151.75.62.222] has joined #lisp 10:42:44 -!- DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@184.99.13.214] has quit [Quit: DaDaDosPrompt] 10:43:39 *Xach* wonders what markskilbeck is up to 10:44:37 xwolf-: DMR is dead. Forget about C. 10:45:42 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-193-145.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:46:26 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-193-145.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:46:33 -!- juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:49:07 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-193-145.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:49:15 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-193-145.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:51:13 ngz [~user@201.144.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:14 -!- ugoubuntu [~ugoubuntu@118.113.146.5] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:51:28 ugoubuntu [~ugoubuntu@118.113.146.5] has joined #lisp 10:52:12 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:52:44 doesthiswork: I don't like the fact that also occurs outside of the scope of extended-if. I would rather have (extended (if condition then else) form... (also form...) form... (also-else form...) form...) 10:55:39 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 10:57:40 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-050-168.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:59:09 juniorroy [~dima@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 11:01:49 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.211.140.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:02:36 -!- anonchik [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 11:02:56 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 11:03:34 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-137-134.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:00 theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.188.209.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:07 benkard_ [~benkard@mnch-4d04cbb8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:31 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d857696.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:08:32 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 11:08:58 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.188.209.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:10:21 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-032-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:25 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-35.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:14:03 theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.188.209.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:05 Harag [~phil@41.146.231.191] has joined #lisp 11:16:33 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:23:25 hi guys 11:23:31 pjb, ping? 11:25:47 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 11:26:07 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 11:28:45 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-84.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:28:56 schme [~marcus@c83-254-206-26.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:28:56 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-206-26.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 11:28:56 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 11:33:57 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:34:15 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:38:32 lundis [~lundis@dyn56-31.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 11:38:39 francogrex [tinyirc@109.130.143.41] has joined #lisp 11:42:58 pjb: won't that lead to horrible spagetti code? 11:43:17 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-57-36.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:44:45 pjb: ie if your function is long enough that you need to reuse if statements, I always just lift the predicate into variable (let ((condition-p condition) ... (when condition-p) etc...)) 11:51:55 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:54:48 -!- waveman__ [~tim@124.170.43.134] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:55:01 gienah [~mwright@ppp121-44-44-207.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:05 -!- francogrex [tinyirc@109.130.143.41] has quit [Quit: Bye] 11:58:55 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04cbb8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: benkard] 12:01:24 maxm-: wrapping the specific operators in a single form allows to untangle spaghetti code. You can edit that sexp as a unit, being sure that no spaghetto reaches outside of it. On the contrary, designing a set of syntactically independent, but semantically dependent macros (with hidden dependencies, in that case some kind of hidden variable) makes spaghetti. 12:01:29 hakzsam: pong 12:04:53 gavinharper [~gavinharp@dyn3-82-128-191-12.psoas.suomi.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:19 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 12:07:49 -!- gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:09:22 -!- Harag [~phil@41.146.231.191] has left #lisp 12:11:15 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:16:27 -!- StrmSrfr [~user@208.72.159.205] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:16:53 StrmSrfr [~user@208.72.159.205] has joined #lisp 12:17:15 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 12:18:18 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:20:43 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 12:21:43 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 12:22:39 -!- H4ns [5b3d4968@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.73.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:22:39 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:29:33 how does it come to concurrent hash table access ? 12:37:09 -!- gavinharper [~gavinharp@dyn3-82-128-191-12.psoas.suomi.net] has quit [] 12:38:17 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 12:39:31 benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04cbb8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:20 hi 12:45:34 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:45:46 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:46:39 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-161-239.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:41 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-137-134.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - 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Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 14:48:14 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:33 pnq [~nick@AC820396.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 14:50:41 -!- Guest99711 is now known as Kron_ 14:51:28 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:51:44 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:01:08 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:01:39 -!- killerbo1 [~mateusz@users13.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:05:15 -!- ngz [~user@201.144.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:05:34 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.126.160] has joined #lisp 15:07:22 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.39] has joined #lisp 15:11:46 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-137-134.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:17:14 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-137-134.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:53 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:18:46 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 15:23:34 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-137-134.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:25:40 _6502_ [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has joined #lisp 15:27:03 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-84.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:27:58 -!- churib` [~user@95.156.194.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:28:03 -!- churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:28:20 -!- pnq [~nick@AC820396.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:29:42 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:21 lnostdal [~lnostdal@124.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:42:01 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.45.253] has joined #lisp 15:42:16 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@124.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:42:48 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:08 lnostdal [~lnostdal@124.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:50:08 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-155-34.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:52 benkard_ [~benkard@mnch-d9bdd4be.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:47 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:55 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.39] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55:12 -!- dontbehero [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:55:50 dlowe [~dlowe@50-77-31-237-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:59 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d85a8d1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:57:17 dontbehero [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:17 -!- benkard_ [~benkard@mnch-d9bdd4be.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:03:35 why did mcclim not define iso-level5-shift or so ? 16:03:38 wtf.... 16:03:42 so annoying.... 16:03:59 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:04:39 churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 16:04:45 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:05:01 oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:53 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:42 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 16:12:10 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:15:28 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 16:17:54 -!- oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:19:54 -!- parabolize [~paraboliz@c-75-71-247-61.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:20:16 <_6502_> I don't mean to start a flamewar or anything... but who does agree with http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html ? 16:20:23 superflit [~superflit@71-208-206-27.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:55 ngz [~user@201.144.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:59 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-96-235.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:17 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-027-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:35 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.45.253] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 16:23:15 _6502_: he has a few points, but then, why care? 16:24:15 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:24:46 <_6502_> H4ns: I'm still trying to understand why so few people are using lisp today... and if starting something big in lisp is a stupid idea or not 16:25:40 _6502_: it is not a stupid idea. i think the "lisp curse" article points out a few things that are not completely wrong, but that alone should not stop you. 16:25:45 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:25 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-177-201-46.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:27:17 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 16:27:28 _6502_: lisp is no silver bullet, though. if you start something big in lisp and fail, it is likely not lisp's fault. 16:27:58 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 16:29:45 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.162.171] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:32:37 _6502_: my company just delivered the first phase of a project executed in CL that would have been difficult to deliver with the headcount we had in any other language. 16:33:03 <_6502_> headcount=1 ? 16:33:10 I think people are doing things in Lisp, but i think a lot of those things are kept under wraps for reasons associated with trade secrecy. 16:33:19 (= headcount 5) 16:33:24 Fade: and what makes you think that? 16:33:54 <_6502_> hmmm... i don't buy the secrecy thing 16:33:59 because I know of three trading firms doing analytics in lisp on Bay St. that won't even talk about the software. 16:34:10 <_6502_> hmmm 16:34:13 <_6502_> that's interesting 16:34:14 let alone the language it's delivered in. 16:34:39 I suspect that count goes up when you start to look at bigger markets like new york and chicago. 16:35:49 *maxm-* did a stupid thing 16:35:59 i think lisp has an edge in trading because many trading applications are one-off solutions that are quickly hacked together in response to immediate needs. 16:36:12 sent express mail to company pobox, forgot to check "wave signature" 16:36:42 now they failed to receive it coz its being held in post office, and I can't change it over the phone to tell them to put it into pobox 16:37:11 ISF [~ivan@187.106.48.51] has joined #lisp 16:37:56 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:38:02 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:41 Fade: heh maybe my experience writing a charting app will help me land inside of one of these someday 16:38:58 anyhow, that lisp curse thing seems to mostly be about the years since the "AI winter" where everybody cut out their own parser/webframework/whatever because of "Not Invented Here" syndrome. 16:39:30 maxm-: well, I've had headhunting calls from people who saw lisp on my resume and were very circumspect about what exactly they wanted e to do. 16:39:49 so if you push your software into the world, and put the language on your resume, the search engines will find you. 16:39:52 :) 16:40:07 Fade: how did you put lisp on your resume, as in "i'm interested in lisp did a few open sources projecs etc?" 16:40:31 *maxm-* "hobbies" section is like 5 pages down after list of projects, maybe I should put it on top 16:40:42 I listed CL under languages with which I was fluent. 16:42:23 when I interviewed at google, in the second technical interview they drilled down hard on CL, so it was of interest to them. 16:42:53 Fade: if you can disclose, is gui or web involved, what you are using for gui, and what lisp implementation? 16:43:03 sbcl 16:43:12 there are web and gui components. 16:43:14 pnathan [~Adium@76.178.165.160] has joined #lisp 16:43:18 we're prototyping in ltk. 16:43:25 I want to use commonqt. 16:43:52 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:43:57 I'll release my patches, always getting sidetracked, with so many damn things 16:44:36 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-208-206-27.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:44:44 superflit [~superflit@71-208-206-27.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:19 lisp isn't particularly dead 16:45:33 it used to be deader 16:46:23 zombie lisp rises 16:46:35 muahaha 16:47:13 lisp isn't dead, it's just somewhat balkanized between the two big commercial vendors and the rest of us in the free/open crowd. 16:47:59 /me is making declarative dialog builder http://i.imgur.com/kfuqq.png 16:47:59 16:48:06 there are a few things in allegro and LW that would be a pretty neaat move in terms of enlightened self interest for franz and lispworks to open up. 16:48:17 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-84.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:48:32 *maxm-* is backing declarative dialog builder http://i.imgur.com/kfuqq.png 16:49:35 already done automatic obj/slot connection to controls, so basically (with-model (clos-object) ... make a dialog ...) should pretty much work automagically, with underlaying object being updated, apply/cancel doing the right thing etc 16:49:52 have you looked at contextL? 16:50:09 oconnore [~Eric@nat-wireless-guest-reg-153-51.bu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:50:10 no, what its for? 16:50:39 context oriented programming. showing different things based on the context in which they appear. 16:50:41 *maxm-* found most esoteric stuff kind of difficult/buggy.. #'curry and #'compose is my limit as far as I go 16:50:56 contextL is pretty amazing. 16:54:43 I see where it would be useful, altho there is not always 1-on-1 correspondence between view and model 17:00:30 reminds me of qooxlisp 17:01:27 *sykopomp* has really warmed up to the html/css way of building the look and feel of GUIs. 17:03:20 does qooxlisp work anywhere but allegro these days? 17:03:56 probably not, and the version we were using has a ton of unpublished modifications. 17:05:27 :/ 17:07:39 <_6502_> http://raksy.dyndns.org/jslisp.png 17:07:58 doritos [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:01 <_6502_> this is a snapshot from a browser 17:14:10 That's pretty. 17:15:09 -!- oconnore [~Eric@nat-wireless-guest-reg-153-51.bu.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:16:03 what is the difference between (some) and (every) because the result is always the same ? 17:16:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.51.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:16:52 hakzsam: one computes whether some of the input is true for the given predicate, the other whether every input is. 17:18:49 err... the result is not the same http://paste.lisp.org/display/125338 17:18:56 pkhuong, thanks ! 17:20:54 hakzsam: some = or, every = and 17:21:37 ok 17:22:19 notany = not or, notevery = not and 17:22:52 pnq [~nick@172.129.43.141] has joined #lisp 17:25:37 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-027-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:25:53 ok 17:26:09 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:08 francogrex [~user@109.130.143.41] has joined #lisp 17:29:25 McOmghall [~quassel@178.139.31.54] has joined #lisp 17:30:53 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d868b0a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:32 -!- McOmghall [~quassel@178.139.31.54] has quit [Client Quit] 17:36:23 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:36:42 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:37:18 John_NERV [~John_NERV@218.9.124.34] has joined #lisp 17:38:13 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 17:41:41 -!- John_NERV [~John_NERV@218.9.124.34] has left #lisp 17:42:54 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 17:44:41 aiju [~aiju@unaffiliated/aiju] has joined #lisp 17:44:52 does common lisp have a way to check whether a character is a letter? 17:45:03 alpha-char-p 17:45:09 great 17:45:48 Jan-Jusky_ [~jan@194.24.138.7] has joined #lisp 17:47:29 -!- doritos [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:47:47 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:48:26 and how to convert a string (or list) of digits to a number? 17:48:55 digit-char-p 17:48:58 <_6502_> And now in video :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFavBwPYuxU 17:49:08 -!- dontbehero [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:49:10 pjb: so, manually? 17:49:17 parse-integer 17:49:22 and in libraries parse-number 17:50:05 dontbehero [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:50:15 <_6502_> dinner time... l8r 17:50:32 oconnore [~Eric@nat-wireless-guest-reg-153-51.bu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:51:42 -!- _6502_ [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:53:04 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 17:53:10 Kron__ [~Kron@98.143.102.225] has joined #lisp 17:55:06 -!- oconnore [~Eric@nat-wireless-guest-reg-153-51.bu.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 17:56:17 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:01:51 -!- BrianRice [~water@174-31-153-63.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: BrianRice] 18:02:01 -!- dontbehero [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:04:29 oconnore [~Eric@pool-71-255-172-187.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:43 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@50-77-31-237-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:04:50 -!- karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:05:24 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d868b0a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:05:52 karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:06:01 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d857ba9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:04 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:10:42 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-177-201-46.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:42 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:49 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:13:31 claint [~user@88.236.86.39] has joined #lisp 18:14:45 -!- tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-197-154.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:02 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-197-154.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:23 is there some way to define constants so i can use them in case statements? 18:15:49 aiju: (case ... (#.+foo+ ...)) 18:19:03 aiju: (eval-when (:execute :compile-toplevel :load-toplevel) (defconstant +foo+ 42)) 18:19:27 are the ++ necessary? 18:19:35 It's a convention. 18:19:35 you don't need eval-when if they are defined in another file loaded prior to the file in question, right? 18:19:55 aiju: what's necessary, is to avoid (defconstant foo 42) (let ((foo 1)) foo). 18:20:13 aiju: one easy way is to write (defconstant +foo+ 42) (let ((foo 1)) (list foo +foo+)) 18:20:51 aiju: notice that constants defined in the CL package don't follow this convention: you must know all of them. 18:20:54 -!- oconnore [~Eric@pool-71-255-172-187.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:22:19 oconnore [~Eric@pool-71-255-172-187.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:25 is there some way to check whether an element is in a list? 18:22:33 eh, a built-in function to check, you know 18:22:45 (find elem list) 18:23:28 and if necessary supply :test function 18:24:02 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.136.127] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:24:33 -!- tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-197-154.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:25:00 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-197-154.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:12 easyE [zfhBRmCQGi@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 18:25:35 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1D2C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:26:21 aiju: there are several functions. MEMBER and POSITION can be used too. 18:26:29 haha 18:27:01 and the -if and -if-not variants. 18:27:17 these are deprecated, aren't they? 18:27:22 replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:27:28 No. The deprecation has been deprecated. 18:27:34 hahaha 18:27:50 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:41 how to convert a string to upper case? 18:29:08 aiju: string-upcase 18:29:09 aiju: go search clhs yourself. 18:29:17 aiju: use (apropos "UPPER") etc. 18:29:30 ah 18:29:41 so far i tried google 18:29:43 (apropos "UP" "CL") 18:29:50 aiju: no, just browse the clhs. 18:29:52 dontbehero [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:29:53 rosario [~rosario@217-68-184-160.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:53 -!- rosario [~rosario@217-68-184-160.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:29:53 rosario [~rosario@fsf/member/rosario] has joined #lisp 18:30:16 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.39] has joined #lisp 18:31:41 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.39] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:31:48 is there some function to get documentation about a function? 18:31:56 aiju: again use apropos! 18:32:11 The answer is yes. 18:32:17 describe 18:32:51 (describe 'STRING-UPCASE) 18:33:46 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:35:01 -!- dontbehero [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:35:39 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:36:15 and (documentation 'STRING-UPCASE 'function) but verbosity is not the same in all implementations 18:40:32 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.136.127] has joined #lisp 18:41:19 dontbehero [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:01 How can I tell what type SBCL is deriving for an expression (other than causing it to be output in a compiler error)? 18:43:32 StrmSrfr: (type-of expr); but I guess you'd want an implementation specific answer... 18:44:43 StrmSrfr: look at sbcl/tests/compiler-test-util.lisp. You want something like compiler-derived-type. 18:44:55 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.208.243] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:45:06 blkt [~user@82.84.168.48] has joined #lisp 18:45:41 Yeah, I think I do want an implementation specific answer... also, since type-of is a function, I think it could return something that only intersects with the derived type. 18:46:20 how do I find out why my slime's version is different from swank's version? 18:46:26 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.39] has joined #lisp 18:46:58 -!- rosario [~rosario@fsf/member/rosario] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:47:31 StrmSrfr: For function, I tend to use sb-kernel:%simple-fun-type. 18:48:50 blkt: how did that happen? 18:49:02 blkt: do you run swank and slime on different machines? 18:49:04 oh, that seems like it should work; just put my expression in a lambda 18:49:10 urandom__ [~user@p548A3FE2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:13 no prxq 18:49:18 blkt: or did you update slime and forgot to restart emacs? 18:49:30 I'm on Windows and I just downloaded last slime version from common-lisp.net 18:49:42 I restarted it many time by now 18:50:09 blkt: looks like you have two installs. Make sure emacs and your lisp use the same download. 18:50:14 -!- ngz [~user@201.144.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:50:16 then my bet would be that emacs and your lisp are looking in different places. 18:50:21 right 18:50:53 *Xach* uses quicklisp-slime-helper even on windows 18:51:01 Is it possible to obtain a macro's lambda list? 18:51:37 (function-lambda-expression (macro-function 'dotimes)) 18:51:48 With the usual caveat of function-lambda-expression. 18:51:51 Quadrescence: slime manages to. 18:52:09 maybe is quicklisp-slime-helper... 18:52:56 pjb, The caveat being that it's not necessarily available? 18:53:43 Or the caveat that macro-functions take exactly two arguments. 18:53:44 Quadrescence: yes 18:53:47 t 18:54:20 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:18 Quadrescence: a question usually raised in this case is: "what are you trying to do"? 18:57:03 prxq, I'm experimenting with the idea of turning a macro into a function. Of course it's easy to see that this can't always work, and if a macro could be a function in the first place, it should be. 18:57:15 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:58:02 I'm expanding on this: if M is a macro, then we can have (lambda (x) (M x)) as a "function" version of said macro. But that's terribly incomplete. 18:58:08 -!- Jan-Jusky_ [~jan@194.24.138.7] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:59:52 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:01:10 Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:56 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:04:11 Huh. 19:04:17 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.143.41] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:04:33 Are you thinking in terms of CL, or Lisps in general, Quadrescence? 19:04:33 is the evaluation order of function arguments defined? 19:04:49 pnathan, CL 19:04:52 aiju: yes. It's defined in the clhs. 19:05:03 just because I've always wondered, what does the "&OPTIONAL" in something like "(FUNCTION (INTEGER) (VALUES (UNSIGNED-BYTE 29) &OPTIONAL))" actually mean? 19:05:09 It's all written in there: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm 19:05:20 only 26 chapters 19:05:41 but yeah that particular one is easy to find 19:06:01 aiju: yes. You should read the first 4 entirely, and the initial sections of all the other chapters. In a first reading, you can just browse the dictionary sections. 19:07:11 right there in section 3.1.2.1.2.3 19:07:39 aiju: it's better to read a decent book instead. The reference is a rather hard read, and very good as a ... reference :-) 19:10:05 StrmSrfr: the presence of a &lambda-list-keyword indicates that the values result form is exact, and isn't trailed by an implicit "&rest T". 19:10:22 Quadrescence: that doesn't work. 19:10:45 Quadrescence: or if it does, then M shouldn't be a macro in the first place. 19:10:57 Xach, I know, that's what I said. 19:11:33 Quadrescence: you want Alan Bawden's "First-class Macros Have Types". 19:11:36 pkhuong: oh, that's kind of crazy 19:11:46 Quadrescence: Oh, I missed that bit. 19:12:04 StrmSrfr: it optimises for convenience. 19:14:00 pkhuong, Is it fair to say that macros in CL are first class, in the sense that macro-function provides an object which allows one to expand code? 19:14:22 yes. 19:14:48 not really: you have to go through eval, and that doesn't hook into lexical scoping like macros are supposed to. 19:15:10 first class means that they're objects that can be bound to variables. Nothing more. 19:15:44 Then everything is first-class in every language. 19:15:50 And you can hook a random function with (setf macro-funtion) so you don't need to use maccro-expand. 19:16:00 You just can't do anything with the reified values. 19:16:08 pjb, My definition is a little more strict than that. 19:16:22 pkhuong: not at all. In some language, functions are not first class. 19:16:45 with macro function, you can bind them to a symbol (setf macro-function) you ccan call them funcall, etc. 19:16:46 of course they are. You just can't use them. 19:16:59 pjb: that's not how I use macros. 19:17:45 pjb, I think your definition should emphasize, not that objects can be bound to variables, but said objects are themselves values. 19:18:06 benkard_ [~benkard@mnch-d9bddbbc.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:50 The fact that objects can be bound to variable defines values. 19:19:26 In CL, multiple values are not first class objects. You cannot bind to a variable multiple value resutls. You must use multiple-value-list to convert them into a list object. 19:19:56 pjb, I know, but I don't think your definition emphasizes that. ;) 19:21:19 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d857ba9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:21:20 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 19:23:35 dlowe [~dlowe@50-77-31-237-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:35 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-45-22-54.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:27 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-96-235.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:25:59 At least with SBCL, FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION doesn't seem useful with MACRO-FUNCTIONs. 19:26:11 -!- pnathan [~Adium@76.178.165.160] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:26:19 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:26:25 even if it did, you'd get (lambda (form environment) ...) 19:26:47 pkhuong, Yeah, hence your original comment about the other caveat, which I now understand. 19:27:14 benkard_ [~benkard@mnch-d9bdc753.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:33 I guess the way SLIME extracts the lambda list would by rote recording of them when things are compiled, unless I'm forgetting about something in CL. 19:29:36 is there a printed version of clhs? 19:29:36 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:29:51 Quadrescence: doubtful. every implementation provides something non-standard to provide it. 19:29:57 aiju, of the specification or of CLHS? 19:30:09 Quadrescence: though you could say that something is recording it, it's just not slime. 19:30:16 the spec 19:30:26 aiju: you can buy an awful quality printed copy from ANSI. 19:30:35 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-d9bddbbc.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:30:35 -!- benkard_ is now known as benkard 19:30:43 aiju, http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=431 19:31:22 pnathan [~Adium@76.178.165.160] has joined #lisp 19:32:06 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:32:31 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@dD5770E09.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:32:48 stassats response was the best 19:33:05 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@50-77-31-237-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:33:25 more importantly, it looks like there's HTML in the scrolly sections being displayed as text 19:33:43 jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-21.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:34:35 doritos [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:52 StrmSrfr, I just fixed that. It must have been when I changed around what
 did. Now it's gone.
19:37:22  can i (go) into a tagbody defined by a caller?
19:37:26 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.14] has joined #lisp
19:37:30 francogrex [~user@109.130.143.41] has joined #lisp
19:37:34  glad I could help
19:37:34  (is this was "dynamic extent" means?)
19:37:59  aiju: yes. (tagbody (funcall (lambda () (go end))) end)
19:38:00  aiju: it also has static scope, so yes, but only if the go is in the lexical scope of the caller's tagbody.
19:43:48 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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19:45:40  but does it work outside of lexical scope?
19:45:55  eh you just answered that
19:45:57 *aiju* is getting tired
19:46:11  any similar construct which works outside of lexical scope?
19:46:31  catch/throw.
19:47:52  aiju: or pass functions around.
19:48:18  there's also handler-case/handler-bind and signal.
19:48:39 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-96-235.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp
19:48:53  catch/throw looks just right
19:49:24  aiju: the advantage of signal, is that it's a NOP if there's no handler.  throw would signal an error if there wasn't a corresponding catch.
19:50:24  ah well not quite
19:50:33  pjb: that's the behaviour i want
19:50:42  the latter
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20:00:22  not a lisp question per se; but howcan one convert bewteen two encodings, for example, iso-8859-1 and utf-16le?
20:00:36  francogrex: iconv? :)
20:00:50  francogrex: from iso-8859-1 to utf-16le is easy
20:01:09 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp
20:01:15  you just need to insert a null byte after every byte
20:01:19  aiju: i meant convering using a cl code
20:01:27  ah
20:01:44  i don't know whether this will handle any control code subtleties properly
20:01:51 -!- Cloud__ [~cbolano@189.247.126.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20:01:57 -!- blkt [~user@82.84.168.48] has quit [Quit: cya tomorrow!]
20:02:03  francogrex: you can use babel
20:02:39 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-137-134.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
20:03:39  francogrex: one can either use a direct code translation table (You need N*N/2 tables), or decode and then encode (you need 2N functions).
20:07:18 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.126.160] has joined #lisp
20:12:30  those tables are available online I suppose..
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20:14:34  Isn't iso-8859-1 to utf-16le really easy, as aiju says?
20:14:59  francogrex: there are usually tables, yeah
20:15:46  And most unicode lisps have some sort of string to octets and octets to string function that would be useful.
20:15:48  inserting a null byte after every byte didn't do the trick here
20:16:03  francogrex: how so?
20:16:26  it didn't reproduce the text
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20:17:17  but that's how iso-8859-1 to utf-16le works
20:17:46  maybe you need a byte order mark at the beginning
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20:18:23  FF EF for utf-16le
20:18:29  try this? رخصة المسجد بأسبوع ورخصة الكنيسة بـ5 سنوات!
20:18:37  francogrex: How did it fail?
20:18:42 benkard_ [~benkard@mnch-d9bdc753.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp
20:18:50  this doesn't look ilke iso-8859-1
20:18:50  it produced nonesense
20:19:02 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp
20:19:19 benkard__ [~benkard@mnch-d9bdc753.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp
20:19:32  looks more like iso-8859-5 to me
20:20:11  aiju: it should get this in utf-16le: (if you can read it)      5 
20:20:21  iso-8859-1 doesn't encode arabic
20:20:37  that's what iso-8859-6 does
20:21:21 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.39] has joined #lisp
20:21:50  francogrex: so, do you mean iso-8859-6?
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20:22:52  strange because I used firefox and an option there is to either use windows-1256 or iso-8859-1, so from an arabic newpaper I took the sentence in either windows-1256 (and utf-16le) which produce the correct arabic output... and then the iso-8859-1 , what i posted above
20:23:11 -!- benkard_ [~benkard@mnch-d9bdc753.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20:23:12  iso-8859-1 doesn't encode arabic at all
20:23:34  windows-1256 does
20:23:35  I supposed that firefox was implicitly doing an encoding..
20:23:43  (and it's different from iso-8859-6)
20:23:50  in this case you'll need a table
20:24:02  francogrex: http://www.unicode.org/Public/MAPPINGS/VENDORS/MICSFT/WINDOWS/CP1256.TXT
20:24:26  aiju: I know, iso-8859-1 produces the rubbish above from an originally arabic text
20:24:31 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-137-134.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
20:25:13  good that table will be useful
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20:27:11  how can i store the initial readtable load a package or system and reload the initial readtable ?
20:27:12  hello
20:28:05  (setq *readtable (copy-readtable *readtable*)) ?
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20:29:08  wbooze:  That should work if *readtable is really *readtable and not *readtable*.
20:29:28  oh ok forgot one ear-muff....
20:29:49  rtoym: how do i restore it then ?
20:30:24  Wouldn't (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable *readtable*))) (do-whatever)) work?
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20:30:43  wbooze: You do (setq *orig* (copy-readtable *readtable*)), do your stuff, and then (setf *readtable* *orig*).  I think.
20:30:45  like say (setq *original-readtable* (copy-readtable *readtable*))...blah....(setq *readtable* *original-readtable*) ?
20:30:54  ah ok
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20:32:24  Or you could use the named-readtables package.
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20:39:31  francogrex: You need to read http://www.cliki.net/CloserLookAtCharacters
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20:41:55  pjb: ok, i am reading it now, seems good
20:43:28  there's something fishy about onlisp.lisp and acl2.lisp when i load those my #+ #- macro dispatch macros behave the opposite....
20:43:49  and it's not reversible by just uncommenting the load lines of those....
20:44:01  or lol.lisp
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20:54:11  maybe my .cache/common-lisp/blah stuff got unclean....
20:57:04  ok time to show the stinky finger!
20:57:05  lol
20:57:39  if i do save the initial readtable and restore it my clim-debugger package is not found.....
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21:02:29  hah, all that because of the #+ #- getting swapped somewhere.....
21:03:50  don't know if that happens after i start maxima or so.....
21:04:01 benny [~benny@i577A3927.versanet.de] has joined #lisp
21:04:08  or just by invoking the binary sbcl instead of the one i compiled
21:04:14 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp
21:04:17  in between...
21:04:24 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp
21:06:49  wbooze`: check cl:*features* before and after.
21:08:41  no wait, it was my typo somewhere, but the swapping occurs never the less sometime, just don't know why or when....
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21:41:29  is it possible to have a tilde in mcclim, with the help of the dead-keys table or so ?
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21:43:18 -!- pnq [~nick@172.129.43.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
21:43:29  ah it's in the Backends/CLX/keysymdef.lisp
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22:04:00  Hello. Is it appropriate to ask for help regarding a Lisp problem? I'm reading Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs and I'm mulling over an exercise in the book. And no, it's not homework.
22:04:37  sure
22:04:39 anvandare [~anvandare@78-23-213-140.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp
22:04:42  Rans: SICP is probably more of a #scheme book, but go ahead.
22:05:01  Ah. I wasn't aware that there was a #scheme. I found this place via Google search.
22:05:04 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-169-250.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)]
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22:05:47  there's also a racket channel, the most vital scheme these days
22:06:40  Aaah. That is good to know. I actually do use Racket. Hmmm...
22:06:50 Kron_ [~Kron@98.143.102.225] has joined #lisp
22:06:54  In anycase, you can do the sicp exercises as well in CL as in scheme.
22:06:57  So ask your question.
22:07:14  http://www.codepoetics.com/wiki/index.php?title=Topics:SICP_in_other_languages       http://eli.thegreenplace.net/category/programming/lisp/sicp/
22:07:15  (#chicken is also pretty vital)
22:07:38  Well, basically I'm in a part of the book that talks about how to create an evaluator. In the first part of this section I'm in they talk about doing an evaluator that does a case analysis of the statement that's given to it then it finds the case and then evaluates it according to the tag in the statement.
22:08:15 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@98.143.102.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
22:08:44  Usually they're lists that begin with 'set!, or 'begin, or 'variable. Anyway...
22:09:48 churib` [~user@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp
22:09:55 -!- churib` is now known as gensym`
22:10:14  It gave a way to explain how to do this. But then it goes on to say that this is inefficient since the task of case analysis and then extract the information necessary to actually do the evaluation.
22:10:17  You're making us lose out time. We'll switch away from our irc windows, and you won't get an answer once you ask your question...
22:10:25 -!- churib is now known as gensym``
22:10:40  4 minutes, and still no question.  Aren't  you ashamed?
22:10:57  six minutes, even.
22:10:59  Anyway, so instead of having a procedure (define (eval statement environment) ...)
22:11:16  Rans: re doing SICP in CL, it's not really "as well as", see http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1159208/can-i-use-common-lisp-for-sicp-or-is-scheme-the-only-option/1169169#1169169
22:11:33  (And #scheme would be the channel for such questions.)
22:11:39  eli: tsk, tsk. It's "better than"!
22:11:53  It should do (define (eval statement environment) ((apply statement) environment)))
22:12:17  prxq: Sure, it would be better than, except that the book is not written to take advantage of the "better than" part.
22:12:19  pjb: you comment from about 10 hours ago is absolutely right
22:13:09  And sorry if this isn't an appropriate question for here, but I was told that it would be ok to proceed in asking the question.
22:13:26  eli: in fact, I'm sure it makes more sense to do SICP in scheme. I just wanted to annoy you a little bit :-)
22:13:39  Ralith: so where's your question? :-)
22:13:45  doesthiswork: yes, my comments are usually right.
22:13:52  a, i mean Rans
22:14:13  prxq: Yeah, I know.  The book suffers from a bunch of problems anyway, so I'm not really one to defend it ... or "Scheme"...
22:14:27  prxq, you meant Rans, didn't you?
22:14:33  JuanDaugherty: yes
22:14:40  Rans: yes, but that's already TEN minutes you're talking and we still see no question. You've lost your chance to get an answer, now I'm going away from the computer.
22:14:48  Alright. This is it.
22:14:51 -!- thom_logn [~thom@96.229.226.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:15:02  Why is it better to split it into an analyzer and evaluator instead of an eval-apply loop?
22:15:21  Rans: because you can run the analyse once and evaluate multiple times.
22:15:24  That's called compilation.
22:15:27  eli: what problems are these?
22:15:38  Rans: (The bottom line is that usually lispers of all flavors know about and are fond of the book.)
22:15:53  turns out it was a general lisp query
22:16:31  eli: Ah, well good.
22:16:35  Rans: And re the "analyzing" evaluator, it is a kind of a compiler that translates code into a function -- therefore allows making things run faster, but there's also the usual advantages of compiling code and detecting problems earlier..
22:17:14 *Rans* blinks.
22:17:27  Oh. I guess that does make sense.
22:17:48  But it seems like they both take the same amount of steps.
22:17:54  prxq: It has a bunch of ancient terminology issues, like "normal order" and "applicative order" that are otherwise rare (and imprecise) terms.  Same goes for its attempted distinction between a "function" and a "procedure" (which is nearly useless if you really look into it),
22:18:09  The only thing that looks different is that you can do one step before the other. You can analyze, then evaluate.
22:18:14  what? normal and applicative order are standard term.
22:18:23  Rans: and then evaluate again.
22:18:35  With the eval-apply loop it's done at the same time.
22:18:50  prxq: Then there are a whole bunch of pedagogical problems, like the fact that it spends a considerable amount of effort with mutating conses -- something that has become increasingly unpopular in lisps as well as in other languages,
22:19:32  prxq: Or the complete lack of a methodology for introducing CS -- it's basically a "lets have fun with (functional) programming", rather than trying to provide solid foundations for newbies.
22:19:40  Rans: Take a simple recursive function like fib. You can either fully evaluate each call, or analyse the function once and evaluate the simplified result of the analysis at each call.
22:19:45 -!- sid3k [~user@li298-167.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:19:59  eli: that book is obviously not about computer science.
22:20:04  prxq: (This is an approach that worked well for the MIT context at the time, where one of the major goals of the course was to filter the huge stream of incoming students.)
22:20:11  pkhuong: Yeah, yeah, I know the intor.
22:20:15  s/intor/intro/
22:20:54  pkhuong: That joke is in the past -- "computer science" might be a bad term, but the science is there, misnamed or not, and intro to it SICP is not.
22:21:39  prxq: Then there's the whole section about data-driven programming which is heavily rooted in the pre-OO days (and even OO is becoming more outdated these days anyway)
22:21:40  eli: you say your post is good flamewar material, and it is.. so why post it here?
22:22:03  pkhuong: Ah, well I don't understand how there would be a speed boost if you input the function into the evaluator to be run at that very moment.
22:22:05  eli: OO is becomming outdated?
22:22:45  If anyone is interested, this is er... the page that I'm reading: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-26.html
22:22:54  prxq: Oh and there's also the issue with its flavor of objects, which were implemented bogusly.  (I even pointed that out to the 6.001 instructors that just went on teaching it as is for years, not noticing how bogus the object system implementation is.)
22:22:58  maybe as a research area, but otherwise?
22:23:00  Rans: did you read the last line I wrote to you?
22:23:10  prxq: Yes, OO is on a general decline, and functional is rising.
22:23:22  pkhuong: I did. Maybe I misunderstood it. One moment.
22:24:06  eli: I noticed that functional is rising, which I think is generally good news. But OO seems to have quite a long way to fall before meeting functional on the way up
22:24:31  adeht: (a) I didn't say that it's good flamewar material *here*; (b) I pointed that out to Rans who is obviously a newbie in the Lisp circles, with the only goal of warning him (and people in a similar position) from attempting SICP in CL.
22:24:50  prxq: huh?
22:24:59  adeht: I did say that in the post as a general disclaimer, to keep it (more) balanced.
22:25:13  Ralith: sorry, autocompletion routed a message to you that was for Rans
22:25:31 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04d3de.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: benkard]
22:25:38  i do not see a problem with eli's contribution
22:25:49  o
22:25:51 oconnore [~Eric@nat-wireless-guest-reg-153-51.bu.edu] has joined #lisp
22:25:53  prxq: Well, if you look at practically all modern languages -- their object systems are more similar to glorified hash tables than an attempt at doing "real OO" as in smalltalk...
22:25:54  pkhuong: I think I understand now.
22:26:20  eli: heh well that's true.
22:26:24  IMO, C++ did a huge contribution to the world of programming in making sure OO looks as bad as it does...
22:27:02  Thanks. Sorry that took so long to post the question. I wasn't sure how to post it properly and how much background info to give.
22:27:11  eli: I'm not convinced with either of your points, but I will not argue the issues.. also, I just found out about lambda.org.il lately and saw that you had a presentation there.. cool
22:27:13  eli: while I sympathize with your POV, C++ is also far from being dead
22:27:15  (That joke post that Stroustrup supposedly made is actually very true...)
22:27:24  I was trying to be as informative as possible.
22:28:00  prxq: Well, like most cases, languages take decades to die -- and C++ will definitely take a huge amount of time to get really dead,
22:28:04  privet eli
22:28:08  Rans: pjb was pulling your leg
22:28:29  prxq: But it is way past its glory days, where C++ would be the default choice for any new project.
22:28:41  eli: with the possible exception of Objective C, nearly all modern languages' OO borrow from C++
22:28:52  *major modern languages
22:28:53  Ah, alright. I know some people who get legitimately peeved over any small issue so I was just being wary.
22:28:56  There's some domains in which it's still the dominating language, but it's not growing in popularity.
22:29:19  adeht: Are you Israeli?
22:29:33  eli: yep
22:29:34  FreeArtMan: I'm married to a Russian, but don't speak it...
22:29:38  eli: not falling, either, though, in most of its remaining strongholds
22:29:40  adeht: Where are you from?
22:29:49  eli: the center
22:29:51  eli do you have eli blog? =]
22:30:00  it'll be the standard language for games until the end of time, in particular
22:30:12  rsynnott: Note that I was careful to say "not growing" -- that's the main hit that C++ has seen...
22:30:13  rsynnott: that's quite a prediction
22:30:13 -!- Vutral [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
22:30:37  FreeArtMan: Ah, you're probably confusing me with Eli Benderski -- the guy that did that SICP-in-CL thing...
22:30:47  prxq: I've worked in that industry. In particular, it's hard to see console and phone gaming abandoning it
22:31:08  eli i was checking ;]
22:31:11  adeht: (BTW, I'm from the south -- or was, before I became "from Cambridge"...)
22:31:11  rsynnott: sure, but the future is always hard to see.
22:31:12  (a lot of inertia, and most of the platforms don't allow JIT)
22:31:51  rsynnott: well, there's a lot of space between C++ and something with a JIT
22:32:08  eli: Be'er Sheva?
22:33:29  rsynnott: BTW, re most language borrowing from C++ -- I highly doubt that, the OO system that C++ represent is something that went in a direction that not many others take.  Modern OOs tend to be much more dynamic (hence my "glorified hash table" comment) -- and OO roots are not "C++" anyway.  (Objective C is also an example for something that is very different from C++.)
22:33:40  adeht: No, a moshav next to zeelim...
22:33:49  Moshav Ein Habsor, if you know the area.
22:34:01  eli: objc is smalltalk heritage, of course
22:34:15  eli: what I see is that many languages remain viable despite "being dead" and in fact keep growing. CL would be an example. But I think you could name C and ada and whatnot as examples.
22:34:16  Java and .NET OO is very much like a simplified C++ model
22:34:17 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-169-250.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp
22:34:39  python et al use a similar model, with a bit more wiggle room
22:34:42  rsynnott: Yeah, and that's a more dominant OO system as far as inspiration goes.  But that's just subjective opinion anyway, so noth worth debating much.
22:34:54  eli: the last edition of the algol manual is from 2009
22:35:03  eli: I see.. dunno the area that well.. have friends in BS and Meitar
22:35:39  rsynnott: One thing to look at is the complete lack of C++-style multiple inheritance in any other language.
22:35:41 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-169-250.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp
22:35:46  prxq: C still has hard-to-get-rid-of niches (kernel stuff on nearly all unixes, nicer interop with third languages than most things, etc)
22:36:03  eli: Python's multiple inheritance is very similar to C++'s, IIRC
22:36:13  eli what makes it different from multiple inheritance in other languages?
22:36:24  prxq: I'd argue that CL is much more alive than many others exactly because of the growing factor.
22:36:25  the abolition of multiple inheritance in Java (and by extension .NET) seems to have been deliberate simplification
22:36:43  eli: which growing factor?
22:36:45  adeht: I know BS well, of course -- I graduated from BGU.
22:37:37  prxq: CL is still growing, unlike C++.  If you factor in the sizes of the respective communities, I think that it makes CL a language that is more alive than C++.  In other words, I expect CL to outlive C++...
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22:38:30  rsynnott: Well, they abolished C++-style multiple inheritance -- but you can get the same effect of mixins using first-class-classes, as in Racket.
22:38:43  wtf c++ ?
22:38:54  Then again, if C++ ever became as little-used as CL, we'd likely consider it dead.
22:39:33  oh man, never seen such a thing as putting unicode support into mcclim and then removing it....
22:39:36  pkhuong: which means that the usual definition of "dead" is not very useful :-)
22:39:55  and hardcoding every key combo, and forgetting the half of it on the way....
22:40:05 *Xach* wonders about "the Quicklisp with Deadlisp"
22:40:08  xwolf-: There's the whole thing about inheriting from a base class via multiple ancestors, and leading to some C1:foo and C2:foo (don't remember the particular syntax.)
22:40:11  err, Quicklisp and the Deadlisp
22:40:55  wtf, they forgot ~ in cl ?
22:40:57  lol
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22:42:19  eli: I was also appalled by the Ruby presentation on that website.. :X
22:42:47  adeht: Which one?  The sayeret lambda thing?
22:43:51  and so poorly documented......
22:44:51  eli: yes.. very Steve Yeggeish
22:45:04  Xach: ?
22:45:43  prxq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Quick_and_the_Dead_(idiom)
22:46:04  adeht: Heh...  They do have interesting discussions though -- if you like this kind of stuff then it's worth getting on their mailing list and coming to meetings...
22:46:05  Yegge is getting mentioned alot recently
22:47:05  Xach: ah
22:47:16  well, he caused controversy, through social network privacy confusion
22:47:56  one of this posts was mention on the Register recently, complaining about how Google don't do APIs or something
22:48:08  I think it was accidently made public
22:48:15  this/his
22:48:21  "one of his posts"?
22:48:23  yep; that's the one. He made a mistake on Google+ privacy settings
22:48:43  Guthur: http://siliconangle.com/furrier/2011/10/12/google-engineer-accidently-shares-his-internal-memo-about-google-platform/
22:48:52  yep that's it
22:48:58  It's a good read.
22:49:07 dlowe [~dlowe@50-77-31-237-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp
22:50:30  indeed
22:50:50 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp
22:51:01  what's it about ?
22:51:47  eli: I'll check'em out
22:52:13  wbooze: go ahead and read it :-)
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22:54:39 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
22:55:32  to be fair it was very irresponsible of google to allow internal comms on google+ when it's so easily connected to the outside world
22:55:56 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: under the bit stream]
23:00:30  beyond being slightly embarrassing, nothing bad happened, I'd say.
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23:02:04  Ralith: static-vectors is complete
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23:09:51  fe[nl]ix: great
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23:14:14  erm, so all those products are companies on themselves ?
23:14:18  lol
23:14:28  i thought that was all centralized.....
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23:43:16  actually, Google+ was *first* an internal comm platform
23:43:43  a lot of the meetings in Google apparently are done by hangouts
23:44:00  what are hangouts ?
23:44:02  (at certain level and depending on the group)
23:44:11 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-96-235.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp
23:44:13  wbooze: teleconference stuff in Google+
23:44:17  wbooze: a google+ group chat thing which for some reason only works on phone
23:44:18  ss
23:44:31  oh
23:44:35  rsynnott: that's Huddle/Messenger
23:44:38  (or, er, maybe hangouts are the videochat thing that only work on computers.)
23:44:43  ah, yes, that's huddle
23:44:52  at least one of these thigns should really work on both platforms
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23:46:28  ah it comes from i'm hanging out on the phone thing....
23:46:28  lol
23:49:49  rsynnott: latest version allows for joining hangouts from videocall-capable phones/tablets
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23:51:53  eli: what would be a good foundation for newbies?
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