00:00:30 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:03:17 and how to loop through all the exported class names in a package? :). is there a fboundp equivalent for class? 00:03:56 frx: (find-class symbol NIL) ;; that is, use ERRORP argument 00:04:18 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:21 good idea 00:05:05 (loop for symbol being each external-symbol in :cl when (find-class symbol nil) collect symbol) 00:05:46 yeah thanks, I did something earlier with functions 00:05:50 something similar 00:06:56 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-62-136-133.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:07:43 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:08:49 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A4125.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:09:10 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-222-56.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:10:37 BlankVerse [~pankajm@103.246.106.35] has joined #lisp 00:10:48 doug11_ [~doug@host213-123-12-26.range213-123.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:14:24 levi [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:27 ISF [~ivan@201.82.136.131] has joined #lisp 00:18:34 I have a bunch of CLOS and CFFI types that wrap around various pointer types in C. what would be a good idea to avoid all the code duplication I'm having here (only pasted relevant parts of the classes)? http://paste.lisp.org/display/125232 00:19:04 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:19:09 Amyn1 [~abennama@LSt-Amand-152-33-14-65.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:19:13 writing some macro. 00:19:54 was thinking about some clever use of inheritance, but I could do that too I guess 00:19:57 -!- Amyn [~abennama@LSt-Amand-152-33-14-65.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:20:11 That too, of course. 00:20:37 But not for foreign types, AFAIK, there's no inheritance there. 00:21:29 I use :wrapper types for validation of function results (handles, booleans, dwords alike) 00:22:11 (defcfun ("CamelCaseHorror" camel-case-horror) valid-camel-handle ...) 00:22:36 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 00:22:47 + with- macros for closing handles 00:23:46 LiamH [~healy@ip-64-134-70-59.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:10 -!- Amyn1 [~abennama@LSt-Amand-152-33-14-65.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:24:21 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:47 ould valid-handle differ in any way from what I have there? 00:29:36 btw it seems that define-foreign-type does support inheritance. http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/define_002dforeign_002dtype.html 00:29:50 supers A list of symbols naming the super classes. 00:30:44 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has joined #lisp 00:30:57 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:32:29 -!- LiamH [~healy@ip-64-134-70-59.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:38:56 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.235] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:39:25 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-189-5.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:40:35 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-67-201.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:45:11 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:50:11 -!- doug11_ [~doug@host213-123-12-26.range213-123.btcentralplus.com] has left #lisp 00:59:22 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-137-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:02:12 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p54839C86.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:02:39 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:07 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:04:03 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.139.180.200] has joined #lisp 01:14:08 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:14:17 screw it I did a macro. :) 01:14:51 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 01:14:53 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125236 01:15:00 looks ok? seems to work 01:15:31 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:22 -!- qeed [~qeed@adsl-98-85-61-74.mco.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:20:22 quackv4 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has joined #lisp 01:23:02 slyrus [~chatzilla@99.62.136.133] has joined #lisp 01:24:13 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:25:34 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:33:28 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 01:42:02 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:46:13 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:59 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:50:18 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:54:51 Daditos [~kvirc@unaffiliated/daditos] has joined #lisp 01:55:28 -!- df [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:57:39 frozencemetery [~frozencem@128.237.119.112] has joined #lisp 01:59:54 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:01:39 hugod [~hugod@70.24.182.228] has joined #lisp 02:04:33 fluffycms [~cms@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:24 gko [~gko@27.240.77.247] has joined #lisp 02:09:25 -!- seangrove [~user@114.205.211.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:14:01 is it possible to specialize a method on a vector of specific size (and perhaps also it's element type)? I have tried this but I'm getting errors. (defmethod foo ((v (simple-vector 2)) v). 02:14:17 "Invalid specializer '(simple-vector2) in lambda list" 02:15:11 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:15:25 frx: no, it's not possible: class precedence list is (vector array sequence t) 02:15:33 am0c [~am0c@175.253.61.143] has joined #lisp 02:18:01 is that true for both the size and type? 02:18:14 -!- fluffycms [~cms@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:19:25 dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-166.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 02:19:53 I'm trying to use #(1 2) as a point literal, would be nice if I could limit the vector to two integer elements 02:22:10 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@216.155.213.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:22:58 superflit [~superflit@71-33-189-5.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:01 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-166.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 02:23:05 complex numbers for points are a classic Lisp pun. 02:23:08 frx: you can't specialize on size (and on _type_ which is not a _system class_) 02:24:16 wolfpython [~wolf@180.109.58.189] has joined #lisp 02:25:48 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-166.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:26:44 -!- am0c [~am0c@175.253.61.143] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:27:24 I want a rect literal too so complex number trick won't work. I think I'll do assert-rect and assert-point on the point and rect methods that accept a vector 02:28:14 wish #p macro character wasn't taken. :) 02:41:20 khisanth_ [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 02:41:23 -!- kleppari_ [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:42:37 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:43:40 am0c [~am0c@175.253.61.143] has joined #lisp 02:44:41 -!- frx [~frx@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: quit] 02:45:43 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has joined #lisp 02:46:39 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@103.246.106.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:47:49 -!- Kron [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:49:49 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:50:10 housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 02:51:06 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:51:11 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 02:54:09 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-67-201.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 02:55:28 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.187.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:58:59 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 02:59:28 df [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 02:59:46 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-55-134.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:00:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-55-134.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 03:00:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-55-134.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 03:00:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 03:00:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 03:01:15 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:01:25 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-98-150.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:17 el-maxo [~max@p5DE8DBE3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:39 dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-166.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 03:04:40 -!- el-maxo_ [~max@p5DE8CD3C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:06:12 DataLinkDKT [~DataLinkD@1.155.212.214] has joined #lisp 03:06:36 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:06:49 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 03:07:07 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 03:07:58 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-166.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:14:05 -!- khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 03:17:35 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kjccspiuhjctbzvw] has joined #lisp 03:18:05 -!- xan_ [~xan@modemcable210.225-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:18:18 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-166.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 03:20:08 -!- hikarudo [~hikarudo@201.86.41.191.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: hikarudo] 03:21:04 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-166.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:28:44 kpavn [~kpavn@77.41.103.59] has joined #lisp 03:31:16 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125242 Dear #lisp, anyone have an idea why this eql-specialized method isn't being found? 03:31:23 I suspect I'm doing something wrong... 03:32:20 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.213.183] has joined #lisp 03:32:20 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.213.183] has quit [Client Quit] 03:32:34 redline6561: does SYMB intern symbols? if so, what package does it use? 03:33:07 akovalenko: It does...I wondered if packages were tied into this somehow. 03:33:13 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:33:23 *akovalenko* would propose (intern (string-upcase ..) (load-time-value *package*)) instead of symbl 03:33:25 It doesn't specify a package. Definition torn from On Lisp. 03:34:13 Gotcha. Thanks akovalenko. 03:34:41 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:35:28 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 03:39:56 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-98-150.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:40:05 Bike1 [~Glossina@71-214-98-150.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:54 dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-166.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 03:44:04 -!- DataLinkDKT [~DataLinkD@1.155.212.214] has quit [Quit: Bye] 03:45:51 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-166.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:47:31 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-166.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 03:48:19 -!- redline6561 is now known as redline6561_nop 03:50:09 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-189-5.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:50:28 superflit [~superflit@71-33-189-5.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:32 -!- dmiles 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[~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:14:37 -!- tty234_ [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-ontadhvjillzezdr] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:14:37 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:15:13 tty234 [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-imgjbfbbqpqiocjs] has joined #lisp 05:15:15 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 05:15:32 -!- vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:16:34 vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has joined #lisp 05:16:46 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125248 05:16:51 Can that be made into a function? 05:17:15 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 05:17:53 Quadrescence: no 05:17:58 My feeling is no, because only the first values produced by FORMS would be sent into the function 05:18:03 -!- ilmari [ilmari@knuth.ping.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:18:07 ilmari [ilmari@knuth.ping.uio.no] has joined #lisp 05:20:37 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 05:22:04 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:22:38 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:22:44 Is that correct reasoning 05:22:47 ?* 05:22:51 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:24:57 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:58 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 05:29:28 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 05:29:55 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:30:02 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 05:31:36 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 05:34:55 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Client Quit] 05:35:07 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has 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06:26:37 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:26:40 quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:03 good morning 06:28:00 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 06:29:19 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:37:05 hakzsam [~hakzsam@64.120.44.106] has joined #lisp 06:37:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-213-143.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:41:40 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 06:47:52 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 06:50:55 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:51:59 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-67.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:55:42 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:58:05 KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 06:58:24 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 06:59:36 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-neaozlusulfdzodv] has joined #lisp 06:59:51 -!- Bike1 [~Glossina@71-214-98-150.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:00:59 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.140.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:07:09 am0c [~am0c@175.253.61.143] has joined #lisp 07:08:14 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:30 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:12:43 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:18:13 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-189-5.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:19:05 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.5.83] has joined #lisp 07:19:53 Is there a good resource for programming beginners to learn CL? I think PCL is too technical. SICP is for Scheme and a bit too mathematical... 07:20:24 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ] 07:21:41 gaidal: http://www.cliki.net/Favorite%20Lisp%20books 07:22:00 "On lisp" is nice, "Ansi Common Lisp" has a good reference 07:22:16 Are they like 30 years old and for computer scientists? :) 07:22:19 There's the "Gentle Introduction", too 07:22:21 -!- Cloud__ [~cbolano@189.247.5.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:22:49 Well, if you want something really new, try "Land of Lisp" or "Let over Lambda" (though the latter is heavily macro-oriented) 07:23:10 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-219-19.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:23:12 Oh right, I read LoL, it would probably work 07:23:18 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.5.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:23:20 If you like (or know) AI you might want to read PAIP, too 07:24:54 Not for me, I just convinced a friend to learn CL instead of Python 07:24:55 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:25:33 He was planning to use the MIT introductory programming material 07:27:04 gaidal: if he understands functional programming then ansi common lisp should be okay 07:27:11 He is a complete beginner 07:27:12 that's what i'm using to learn along the way 07:27:31 gaidal: suggest he first understands functional programming 07:27:37 any language will do 07:27:57 dRbiG: Is there a way to understand functional programming through learning CL? 07:28:28 gaidal: most probably! though i didn't go that path so won't comment further :) 07:28:57 gaidal: give him SICP and this: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 07:29:01 Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-198-133.uio.no] has joined #lisp 07:29:05 dRbiG: ok, thanks for the tip though 07:29:34 that's really fine for beginners, I think - puts them on the right path, no messing around with 10 GOTO 20 and such things 07:29:42 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-133-11.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:59 the video lectures are really good, and with the book to read it should be a very nice journey for him 07:30:12 flip214: I watched a few of those, I really think it's too technical, he's not an engineer or anything 07:30:14 good morning everyone 07:31:06 Amyn [~abennama@62.23.212.20] has joined #lisp 07:31:33 superflit [~superflit@71-33-189-5.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:01 flip214: maybe after Land of Lisp. I think there's a complete CL translation of SICP somewhere. 07:32:45 gaidal: btw. i went ruby -> haskell -> scheme -> lisp and i've never read any 'guide' like book to scheme nor lisp 07:33:50 but, i were a complete beginner around 10 years ago, so i probably have no idea how to learn it fresh :) 07:34:56 dRbiG: sounds like a nice path. But what did you read when learning Ruby? 07:35:05 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-76-84.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:35:07 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-76-84.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:35:07 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:35:44 gaidal: reference, i were using python before that but i've got mad at all the self. and __stuff__ and i've ditch it 07:37:20 and before that tcl, before that perl, before that i were trying to use c but decided that my life is too short to work at such low level :) 07:38:22 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:38:22 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:38:50 dRbiG: so the real beginning is somewhere way back there... :) 07:39:48 gaidal: my feeling is: understand concepts, after that all you need is a reference; a good book should show you best practice but even better is reading quality code 07:42:50 dRbiG: well, yes; the thing is I don't want to scare my friend away, he's expecting a gentle introduction to "programming" and I'm already having him install emacs :P 07:43:02 hehe 07:43:51 Joreji [~thomas@75-032.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:44:27 cl is quite complex so i guess it may be a bit scary if you're not even sure what you want 07:44:46 gaidal: I think that the video lectures are a very nice introduction - they start with really simple things to understand ... 07:45:01 but then, it's better because you don't drag bad habits with you 07:45:33 flip214: maybe you're right, will mention them. 07:46:52 dRbiG: Indeed, I wish I had started with something cleaner than VB4 as a kid :P 07:48:02 -!- DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@184.99.13.214] has quit [Quit: DaDaDosPrompt] 07:49:38 http://reprog.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/where-dijkstra-went-wrong-the-value-of-basic-as-a-first-programming-language/ 07:50:07 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-104-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:51:20 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 07:52:08 gaidal: on the other hand starting with lisp will make you mad whenever you'll have to use anything else :) 07:52:21 nostoi [~nostoi@6.Red-79-153-124.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:41 dRbiG: Or at least anything mainstream. :) 07:53:47 Hmm. I'm not so sure about that, these days. 07:53:50 akovalenko: thanks, interesting 07:54:43 When programming in other languages I tend to re-implement pathnames (except differently), generic functions (except differently) and occasionally wish for macros. 07:55:23 But I find that macros are something that I wish for less and less over time. 07:56:04 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-032.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:56:16 Over time as in, while devoting yourself to the other languages for months while putting CL on the shelf? 07:56:54 I don't devote myself to languages, these days. 07:57:05 Or, as you get used to using the other language 07:57:27 I've been programming for a long time -- it's not a matter of that, either. 07:57:28 Yeah, hm, I was thinking of having to do only one language because of a job or a similar situation 07:57:43 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@64.120.44.106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:57:44 No. I use a bunch of languages regularly. 07:57:49 What "over time" is it then? 07:58:05 Over the time that you wish for macros, you wish less and less for them? 07:58:09 Well, just time spent thinking, working, and doing stuff. 07:58:18 I used to think that macros were a really good idea. 07:58:48 I used to be more concerned with syntax. 07:59:04 Now I don't think in any language any more. I just hmmm... 07:59:26 I think that part of it is as your ability to read code increase the syntax becomes less of an issue. 08:00:00 primeiro_ [1f2ce64f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.44.230.79] has joined #lisp 08:00:10 But more than that, I think that I value being able to look at code in a more superficial fashion and read it. 08:00:22 I deal with a lot of code written by a lot of people. 08:00:44 And this makes be increasingly glad that they don't have a good macro-facility. 08:01:17 json vs. sexps might be a nice, simple case. 08:01:58 wolfpython [~wolf@121.229.42.99] has joined #lisp 08:02:36 How do you represent { "a": [1, 2] } as a s-exp? 08:02:54 (The answer is: however you like) 08:04:08 More restricted syntaxes help more with casual reading. 08:05:52 marsell [~marsell@120.18.33.32] has joined #lisp 08:06:27 gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:01 Sounds worth remembering. I don't read a lot of code. 08:07:25 Zhivago: i guess that's why java is so corporate-friendly choice :) 08:07:56 drbig: Partially. I think it's why corporate-friendly languages have highly restricted forms of extension. 08:09:00 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:09:20 which brings us to the fundamental wisdom: use proper tools for the task at hand 08:09:36 i'm not a corporation, i want lisp, or at least ruby 08:09:38 meh, I wouldn't say language X would be corporate friendly because of sntax 08:09:56 primeiro_: surely not only because of syntax 08:10:49 I think that syntax is a significant part of it. 08:10:51 Zhivago: there're (at least) two good cases for macros - the (with-X) and (do-X) families ... 08:11:14 dRbiG: syntax is a detail... language features are a more important thing, but even that is secondary IMHO... corporates pick languages based on available compatible batteries 08:11:18 flip: Yes, and those can be idiomized ala python's for x in y, etc. 08:12:50 flip: Or you can generally make do with nested functions. 08:13:05 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-198-133.uio.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:13:37 primeiro_: i'd say that batteries are even more important for single programmers like me 08:15:00 I suspect that programmers working their way down bug-lists is the most compelling use-case for corporate development. 08:15:08 dRbiG: if you value that yes they are, I certainly do 08:15:20 Zhivago: how can these sanely be done without a symbol (defining the stream, iterator, ...), and, consequently, without a macro? 08:15:41 on batteries: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3222408140336006@naggum.net.html 08:15:53 of course, the (do-X) family can be integrated in eg. (iterate) .... 08:16:07 flip: with_x(function (x) { ... }) 08:16:53 Zhivago: and now do that for 3 or 4 levels deep ... 08:17:06 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 08:17:17 But I assume that you just comment on the general availability, not on whether macros should be entirely avoided 08:18:08 ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:37 flip: Mostly I wish to say that they're not very compelling argument to me these days, for the above reasons. 08:19:20 flip: And if you look at where the deep thinkers from lisp have gone, they've largely wandered away from them as well. 08:19:53 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-hjczeulidfcvvvgh] has joined #lisp 08:20:19 flip: I think that the nicest thing that you can say about lisp syntax is that it is consistently mediocre, and this makes user extensions largely indistinguishable from system extensions. 08:20:25 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:32:09 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 08:34:05 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 08:34:21 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 08:36:27 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 08:45:52 -!- primeiro_ [1f2ce64f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.44.230.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:47:57 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@6.Red-79-153-124.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:48:07 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 08:49:03 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 08:52:10 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 08:57:24 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:57:55 e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-mmopxvcgmwfvalrb] has joined #lisp 09:00:22 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:00:24 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:18:04 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:22:58 gaidal: for complete beginners, I advise "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 09:24:33 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-189-5.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:24:47 superflit [~superflit@71-33-189-5.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:16 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:26:46 pjb: Thanks, promising title 09:28:33 pjb: Have you read "Practical Common Lisp?" 09:31:19 …… 09:22 There's the "Gentle Introduction", too 09:32:03 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@121.229.42.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:33:13 flip214: sorry, missed that... 09:35:29 francogrex [~user@109.130.156.70] has joined #lisp 09:38:54 spacefrogg: I only browsed PCL. 09:39:30 flip214: I keep full references in my notes.txt files so that I can easily copy-and-paste them here, when minion is not here. 09:40:17 pjb: That would easily be regarded as cheating in some other channels, you know? Not typing everything afresh everytime ;) 09:40:44 One day, I'll write a pjb bot... 09:41:01 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:41:19 pjb: I found it very useful, with contemporary examples. But I didn't want to spoil your advice. ;) 09:41:23 pjb: hi 09:41:43 akovalen` [~user@95.72.97.10] has joined #lisp 09:41:57 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 09:42:02 Posterdati: 10 GOTO 10 09:42:05 -!- akovalen` is now known as akovalenko` 09:42:16 -!- levi [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:42:33 flip214: 10 sys 64738: goto 10 09:43:03 Ha! 09:43:15 doesn't run that often, you know? 09:43:34 -!- akovalenko [~user@95.72.45.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:43:40 flip214: yes 09:45:16 how you you envisage CL program implementing theTwo-Phase, Multiway Merge Sort (example: http://people.cs.aau.dk/~simas/aalg04/esort.pdf) ? 09:45:59 what would the secondary storage be? files? 09:46:08 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:46:26 Joreji [~thomas@75-032.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:46:46 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 09:47:04 francogrex: traditionally secondary storage for merge sort is some storage system, that is, outside program 09:48:38 outside program or disks? 09:49:21 -!- akovalenko` is now known as akovalenko 09:49:24 francogrex: disks/tape/network/whatever 09:50:07 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:50:09 but suppose you would want to do it on your pc, how would you proceed? 09:51:06 disk 09:51:32 (the original algorithm spec used tape, I think, because that's what was available back then) 09:51:36 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:51:40 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:51:49 francogrex: back in DOS times I filled the 640K memory, then put the sorted data into EMS (if available) resp. into files (if no EMS or full); after the first pass I read all files and/or EMS to sort into the destination 09:51:52 ok disk, meaning your hard drive 09:52:03 francogrex: if you have a RAM drive it might be faster ;) 09:52:41 francogrex: basically, storage outside what is known in unix as "core" 09:53:35 wolfpython [~wolf@180.109.157.2] has joined #lisp 09:53:56 let's say using only lisp, what functions you would use to store? write-bytes to files on the disk 09:54:34 francogrex: depends what I was doing. I might even use syscalls through something like osicat 09:55:24 but standard file i/o would be best bet most of the time 09:55:40 yes I thought so 09:55:59 p_l: take a concrete example. You have 4 GB of RAM, merge-sort 250-GB files . 09:56:22 (you have 2TB hard disks, right?) 09:56:25 good, how to do it? 09:56:34 you implement the algorithm. 09:57:07 depending on the kind of files, read-line, write-line, or read-sequence, write-sequence. 09:57:31 If they have a more complex structure, then use your custom read-record write-record functions. 09:58:32 if you have exotic storage, apropriate exotic calls (MPI, Infinipath RDMA, etc.) 09:59:11 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:24 easytiger [~gerry@88.211.44.234] has joined #lisp 09:59:27 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:59:33 lanthan [~ze@i5E878529.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:59:56 -!- anonchik [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:00:32 setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.199] has joined #lisp 10:03:31 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@180.109.157.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:03:45 wolf_ [~wolf@58.212.31.91] has joined #lisp 10:04:03 nice. I think those algorithms are the key for implementing a DBMS in cl. They do not seems overly complicated I wonder why noone has done that before 10:04:26 francogrex: the first version of postgresql was written in Lisp. 10:04:46 do we still have that version somewhere? 10:05:34 would be good to look at src code 10:06:37 I don't know. Engage in some web archeology and see what you can find out. 10:06:57 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-137-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:05 http://db.cs.berkeley.edu/papers/ERL-M90-34.pdf page 30 10:11:27 By a process of elimination, we decided to try writing POSTGRES in LISP ... 10:12:20 Our experience with LISP and two language systems has not been positive, and we would caution others not to follow in our footsteps... 10:12:28 bollocks 10:12:38 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:16 francogrex: they were using Sun workstations with something like 4MB of RAM 10:15:21 long time ago, that made sense 10:15:46 yes I realize, also they say they were not skilled as lisp programmers 10:18:19 "Hence, we would encourage the implementors of other programming languages to study the LISP environment carefully and implement the better ideas." 10:19:07 it's time to do that now 10:20:14 flip214: my program is a broken promise 10:20:22 flip214: I'll be there 10:20:46 flip214: this opens a question 10:21:06 flip214: would programming be a lie? 10:21:30 -!- wolf_ [~wolf@58.212.31.91] has quit [Quit: ] 10:21:51 flip214: have we to trust programs that won't keep a promise? 10:22:07 wolfpython [~wolf@58.212.31.91] has joined #lisp 10:22:20 flip214: 10 sys64738:goto10 10:22:25 flip214: a lie 10:25:18 anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 10:25:22 killerboy [~mateusz@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 10:30:16 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:37:25 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:40:40 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.156.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:42:09 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 10:42:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:43:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 10:43:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:44:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 10:44:08 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:45:09 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 10:45:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:45:50 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 10:45:50 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:46:07 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 10:46:07 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:55:46 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-neaozlusulfdzodv] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:58:06 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.162.12] has joined #lisp 10:59:58 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-eznvyndghctrqldx] has joined #lisp 11:00:09 imagine this: (defmacro foo (arg) `(defmacro ,arg () ...)) 11:00:20 how do I get to the symbol-name of arg? 11:00:23 cfa [~cfa@unaffiliated/cfa] has joined #lisp 11:00:44 ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.69] has joined #lisp 11:00:57 -!- gko [~gko@27.240.77.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:02:36 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:03:00 oh I got it 11:03:57 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:03:57 -!- Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:04:40 turnipseed [~csimonm@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:49 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:05:59 xan_ [~xan@modemcable226.1-37-24.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 11:07:16 Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:17 el-maxo: read "let over lambda" for macro-writing macro-writing macros 11:11:34 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.162.12] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:12:09 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.162.12] has joined #lisp 11:12:16 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.33.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:12:35 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:14:11 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-213-143.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:14:30 el-maxo: its also described in "on lisp" 11:14:34 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-137-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:18:43 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-137-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:31 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-189-5.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:26:10 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:28:03 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.54.193] has joined #lisp 11:29:08 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kjccspiuhjctbzvw] has left #lisp 11:29:42 -!- turnipseed [~csimonm@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: adieu.] 11:32:37 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:33:33 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-46.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:34:06 Harag [~phil@41.146.227.241] has joined #lisp 11:34:38 turnipseed [~csimonm@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:27 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 11:38:13 Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:52 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:42:27 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:42:35 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:43:54 -!- jasom [~aidenn@ip98-182-25-247.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:45:18 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 11:49:53 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@128.237.119.112] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:50:01 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:50:17 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-133-11.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:51:29 jasom [~aidenn@ip98-182-25-247.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:34 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:55:36 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:56:43 if instead of ,@body I wanted to do (let ((v item)) (when v ...)) for each item in body (&body), how would I do that? 11:56:51 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-eznvyndghctrqldx] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:57:56 (loop for item in body collect `(let ((v ,item)) (when v ...))) ?? 11:58:04 not entirely sure what you want 11:58:38 (progn ,@(loop for form in body collect (frob form))) 11:58:51 where frob manipulates form in whatever way you want 11:58:58 why progn? 11:59:24 Depends on context. You may not need it 11:59:47 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:29 Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-202-22.uio.no] has joined #lisp 12:02:53 wicked thanks 12:04:09 *Xach* feels the excitement of another day of Lisp hacking! 12:04:23 H4ns [5ddba44a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.219.164.74] has joined #lisp 12:04:36 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:07:17 lool 12:11:22 lnostdal_ [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 12:12:01 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:13:24 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:19:03 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:20:19 heh 12:20:53 *maxm-* is trying to think if there are any benefits of having embedded repl is his charting/trading program 12:21:39 so far slime works great, but switching between the app and emacs window gets tiresome.. And having emacs-like (define-key) with per-state map hierarchy would be cool 12:22:35 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:30 -!- xan_ [~xan@modemcable226.1-37-24.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:27:03 maxm-: you can't have too many repls 12:28:55 morning Xach 12:30:17 anyone running the emacs build 23.3 from http://emacsformacosx.com/ run into issues with sb-impl::*default-external-format* being set to :US-ASCII? running from Terminal.app it comes up as :UTF-8 12:31:31 tritchey: just curious, what does M-x shell-command locale RET tell you? 12:31:47 tritchey: (i might not be able to help regardless of what it tells you) 12:32:05 Xach: btw, that link was broken last night [sorry] 12:32:15 cfa: it was? i got there ok 12:32:22 ah okay, you checked before i moved it then 12:32:31 i've quite heavily updated it, one sec 12:32:52 LC_CTYPE="C" 12:32:54 interesting 12:33:03 it would have made for quite bad reading yesterday -- just rough notes still 12:33:08 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-aqggehontgzpympq] has joined #lisp 12:33:49 tritchey: last time i had to think about this, it was something to do with an environment.plist somewhere establishing utf-8 for every process in my session, not just those initialized from a shell (which had correct setup in ~/.profile or something) 12:33:52 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@205.233.80.143] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:34:07 tritchey: i so rarely install fresh that i don't remember the exact details, but google is usually helpful 12:34:07 might add some trampoline examples at some point 12:34:18 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.94.240] has joined #lisp 12:34:36 Xach: that should get me close enough - I ran across a reference to plists last night in my searches 12:34:44 just need to find again 12:35:02 -!- H4ns [5ddba44a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.219.164.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:37:35 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:38:10 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 12:39:21 francogrex [~user@109.130.156.70] has joined #lisp 12:40:03 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:41:02 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:29 Xach: found it: echo "{ LC_CTYPE = \"en_US.UTF-8\"; }" > ~/.MacOSX/environment.plist 12:41:45 thanks 12:41:54 no problem 12:42:34 cfa: to be honest, i don't have a stake at the moment. i've never written a program where it mattered. 12:44:13 ah, okay -- not to worry then 12:45:02 Ah, you lucky americans ... not having üäút and so on ... 12:46:00 ahhh, they're just using an inferior character set. ;) 12:46:09 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 12:46:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:46:18 drdo [~drdo@77.54.207.85] has joined #lisp 12:46:47 Xach: i take it you didn't spot any glaring errors though? 12:47:04 I didn't. 12:47:09 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 12:47:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:47:41 cool 12:48:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 12:48:08 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:48:53 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-46.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:49:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 12:49:08 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:50:09 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 12:51:53 H4ns [4ffc9875@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.252.152.117] has joined #lisp 12:54:40 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:56:08 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.156.70] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:57:05 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.199] has joined #lisp 12:57:12 BrokenCog_ [~danielj@adsl-065-081-078-141.sip.pns.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:15 mcsontos_ [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-zkqyspcbvdqxqxpp] has joined #lisp 12:57:20 -!- BrokenCog_ [~danielj@adsl-065-081-078-141.sip.pns.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:57:45 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-ftuykybgbsfurulj] has joined #lisp 12:57:51 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-aqggehontgzpympq] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:01:31 -!- am0c [~am0c@175.253.61.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:07:19 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-137-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:07:45 Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-23.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 13:10:36 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:42 G'morning all. 13:11:29 Good morning. 13:11:40 morning nyef 13:11:58 Hunh. It's 9:11 am on 10/11/2011. 13:12:04 dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-fjqheixkdzplddon] has joined #lisp 13:12:05 (Well, 9:12 now, but still.) 13:13:58 Can't wait to hear your lunch report. 13:14:20 ha ha 13:14:45 I think it's going to be something along the lines of "amazingly enough, there were restaurants open again today, making a nice change from the last three days". 13:15:37 dwim [~dwim@3.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:10 Do people refer to #+ and #- as sheplus and sheminus? 13:16:12 haha 13:16:18 *Xach* doesn't say code aloud enough to know 13:16:37 ... I think I say "hash-plus" and "hash-minus". 13:17:12 Xach: I suppose I might do so, but that's because a lot of sigils get replaced with polish 'sz' when I think of them out loud. 13:17:13 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@141.212.58.64] has joined #lisp 13:17:23 dièze plus, dièze moins. 13:17:52 Octothorpe more, octothorpe less. 13:18:31 Octothorpe positive, octothorpe negative. 13:19:19 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.5.83] has joined #lisp 13:19:51 -!- hugod [~hugod@70.24.182.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:19:58 ifdef, ifndef 13:20:10 flip214: C programmer! 13:20:24 #+(and) #+(or) 13:20:35 #+(and) #-(and) 13:20:42 flip214: And what would you call #+#.(cl:if ... '(and) '(or)) ? 13:20:54 I kid. I do #+nil like a sane person 13:21:32 *pinterface* does #+fixme and #+todo, like a crazy person. 13:21:41 dlowe: that wouldn't work on Nyef's Implementation of Lisp 13:21:50 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:13 pinterface: not a bad idea 13:22:38 nyef: C is and has been a large part of my life. Sadly, I have to say, since I "got" a bit of lisp ... 13:22:51 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:23:15 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:37 #+#:prankster-friendly 13:23:44 I rather like C. I just wish I could get rid of all implicit type conversions. 13:23:50 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.5.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:23:55 pinterface: May I suggest an alternative? (defmacro fixme (reason &body body) (declare (ignore body)) (style-warn "FIXME: ~A" reason)) ? 13:23:56 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:24:11 But, you know, I like lisp better 13:24:19 nyef: slime wouldn't know about it 13:24:23 nyef: not so great because you have to enclose the form you're talking about 13:24:36 stassats: Slime can be taught. 13:24:41 dlowe: That's what paredit is for. 13:24:45 slime highlights disabled features the same color as comments 13:24:53 nyef: M-1 ( is still more keystrokes 13:25:04 (defmacro fixme (reason &body body) (declare (slime (color "rose")) (ignore body)) (style-warn "FIXME: ~A" reason)) 13:25:18 slime could parse declarations to take hints... 13:25:31 nyef: though you could make a reader macro to do it for you 13:25:33 pjb: So, if you redefine the comment-face, that will still do the "right thing"? 13:25:34 #%fixme 13:25:55 If you write: (defmacro fixme (reason &body body) (declare (slime (face comment)) (ignore body)) (style-warn "FIXME: ~A" reason)) 13:26:27 #+fixme (package-to-eventually-depend-on:initialize) 13:27:27 a simple macro won't avoid problems that would cause read errors 13:27:49 #%fixme "this is totally broken" (...) 13:28:26 (pushnew :fixme *features*) ;; let's see what breaks 13:28:29 There's a limit to the read-error-suppressing powers of *read-suppress* as well. (Was it *read-suppress*? Whichever it is.) 13:28:55 How about (defun fixme () ) and looking at xref-calls of fixme? 13:29:36 flip214: Doesn't suppress the following form(s). 13:31:01 (defun fixme () (return-from fixme NIL) .... ) 13:31:09 oh, sorry. 13:31:16 use (defmacro) instead 13:31:25 then they're hidden 13:31:41 gko [~gko@220.135.201.90] has joined #lisp 13:31:51 And dlowe pointed out that you still get read-errors that way. 13:32:35 hi aerique 13:32:37 hi fe[nl]ix 13:32:39 (I'm ignoring the bit about "more keystrokes", it's just touch silly.) 13:33:12 Of course, with #%fixme "what if you don't actually need to kill the following form?" () there are still problems. 13:33:15 next idea ... use cl-interpol and wrap with #?« ... » 13:33:44 #?«FIXME: (wrapped forms, even with unbalanced parens ... ) » 13:34:15 -!- karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:34:40 karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:34:45 Well, then you might as well just do #|FIXME ... |# and avoid the dependency. 13:35:08 not if the form includes "|" ... 13:35:16 pinterface: But then you won't be able to use the compiler to find all of the fixmes. 13:35:23 flip214: Umm... what? #| |# nests. 13:35:30 of course, the cl-interpol is sensitive to unbalanced » « 13:35:45 yes, it may nest ... but doesn't work if unbalanced. 13:35:53 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-126.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:36:23 this is bikeshedding of the highest order :D 13:36:28 Sure. But neither do parens. Although it's easier to unbalance #| |# than parens when using paredit. 13:36:51 dlowe: No, bikeshedding of the highest order would involve an /actual bike shed/. :-P 13:37:03 nyef: a bikeshed running lisp 13:37:21 a bikeshed running lisp with an insufficient commenting system 13:37:42 dlowe: a self-replicating bikeshed running lisp with an insufficient commenting system 13:37:44 that's why I suggested cl-interpol ... this has a wide range of available characters, and everybody will find one ...  13:38:15 ... this lacks only "?????" and "PROFIT!" >_> 13:38:29 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@72.19.53.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:38:48 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-126.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:39:24 you could add a new form of documentation and just query that can't you? 13:40:07 oGMo: Again, no. Part of the point is to be able to suppress evaluation of a following form. 13:40:17 nyef: there are already things that do that 13:40:35 Yes. Some of which are wrong. 13:41:12 #; might be good for a single form comment 13:41:27 hyoyoung [~morris@210.117.152.122] has joined #lisp 13:41:32 #; non open paren text (....) 13:42:11 that would be neat 13:42:14 But suppressing a form, leaving an indication of /why/ the form is suppressed, and making it possible to find forms suppressed for reasons of "fixme" throughout your codebase would be impressive. 13:42:38 nyef: could use grep for #;fixme :p 13:42:51 dlowe: Shh! :-P 13:43:13 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 13:43:19 dlowe: or #; 13:43:37 If you're going that route, how about #-(or "reason") ? 13:43:54 too practical 13:44:15 nyef: undescriptive 13:44:39 but couldn't you just do #-"reason" ? 13:44:44 can you xref features? 13:44:59 oGMo: for what? 13:45:10 oGMo: it's just a special variable 13:45:33 dlowe: Even better. 13:45:42 nyef: "invalid feature expression" 13:45:51 Ah, damn. 13:46:03 right the idea is to find everyplace in your code using the compiler isn't it? how do you do that with features? 13:46:31 oGMo: You don't do that with feature conditionals, because you /can't/ do that with feature conditionals. 13:46:49 oGMo: you'd have to track everywhere *features* might possibly be assigned 13:46:49 nyef: right so that's not going to work for what you were asking 13:46:56 Not introducing new reader syntax would be a bonus. 13:48:16 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/24_aba.htm 13:48:52 I'm not sure strings are outright prohibited by the standard 13:48:52 Mmm. So much for that idea, then, huh? 13:49:11 No, that's a fairly restrictive grammar. 13:49:39 You need new reader syntax if you want to be able to violate normal syntax rules within the active region. 13:49:42 "If a symbol naming a feature is used as a feature expression, the feature expression succeeds if that feature is present; otherwise it fails." - that could be parsed two ways 13:50:43 dlowe: No, because one of the parses is contraindicated by the three list cases following. 13:51:41 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:52:46 My question is, what is supposed to happen if you use a symbol that doesn't name a feature (regardless of its presence or lack thereof on the feature list)? 13:54:30 ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:14 DetroitPowered [d8058d02@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.5.141.2] has joined #lisp 13:56:28 Hello, good sirs; let me introduce myself. 13:56:39 ... you're a man of wealth and taste? 13:57:23 My name is Bill Bonds and I have a big chest, so I think I would write good web apps in Lisp. I currently write my web apps in blub. 13:57:33 DetroitPowered: go away. 13:57:46 So, is anyone using Weblocks? 13:58:00 ... The nature of your game is definitely not puzzling me. 13:58:01 lol Xachs.... 13:58:39 DetroitPowered: People use weblocks. The people who use weblocks don't usually discuss it here. The mailing list is active. 13:59:17 I want to be proselytized to relentlessly about the mystical virtues of Lisp. 13:59:29 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 13:59:31 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*d8058d02@*.216.5.141.2 13:59:33 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 14:03:01 antifuchs: herep 14:04:09 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 14:04:50 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125251 14:06:55 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:08:25 dlowe: *read-suppress* nil? Really? 14:08:41 TautologicalCode [~Tautologi@216.5.141.2] has joined #lisp 14:08:47 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.163.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:09:07 why not use READ-LINE? 14:09:25 Xach: You, ah, may need to adjust your ban line. 14:09:32 (PEEK-CHAR #\Newline ...) ;; don't cons 14:09:34 or (peek-char #\Newline) 14:09:52 nyef: We'll see. 14:09:58 stassats: because I'm dumb, eh? 14:10:05 Xach: Indeed we shall. Hence, "may". 14:10:06 it'll leave the newline, but READ won't mind 14:10:08 -!- redline6561_nop is now known as redline6561 14:10:13 dlowe: and canadian? 14:10:23 stassats: leave the newline? 14:10:33 Xach: in the stream 14:10:49 stassats: Is that true? 14:10:58 Having the newline in the stream shouldn't matter, it's whitespace after all. 14:11:04 of course 14:11:26 *Xach* learns something new every day 14:11:53 nyef: why not *read-suppress*? 14:11:54 Xach: I wouldn't worry about it. 14:12:23 (with-input-from-string (*standard-input* (format nil "abcd~%")) (peek-char #\Newline) (read-char)) => #\Newline 14:12:28 -!- mcsontos_ [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-zkqyspcbvdqxqxpp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:12:45 stassats: oh, sorry, i missed the context. i thought it was read-line, read-char. 14:12:53 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@193.109.18.92] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:12:58 *Xach* missed everything after "adjust your ban line" 14:12:58 ok 14:13:08 were you adjusting it? 14:13:27 stassats: I was scanning irc logs, because I have most join/part/quit activity hidden in my client 14:13:33 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:15:26 dlowe: My question exactly! 14:16:06 *nyef* notes that Xcode is nowhere near as good as paredit when it comes to doing anything with balanced brackets. 14:16:10 Wow, Parenscript looks exciting. :> 14:16:55 In paredit, if I hit a "wrong" bracket key, I can backspace and I get back to where I started. In Xcode, I end up with absolute gibberish all over the place. :-/ 14:17:48 i have a question. disregarding syntax and macros, what makes LISP different from other, "conventional" programming languages. 14:18:10 zvrba: Garbage collection. 14:18:43 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@141.212.58.64] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:47 I would add clos, honestly CLOS is an eye opener.. 14:18:57 everything else you do in lisp you can pretty much do in javascript also 14:18:58 zvrba: LISP-the-idea? Or Common Lisp specifically? 14:18:59 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:18:59 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:00 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:00 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:00 -!- df [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:00 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:00 -!- xharkonnen [~xharkonne@2.26.51.144] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:00 -!- BrianRice [~water@97-126-59-7.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:02 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:02 -!- spacebat_ [~spacebat@ubermonkey.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:02 -!- sbryant [~freenode@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:02 -!- Quetzalcoatl_ [~Administr@cpe-75-186-5-185.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:02 -!- egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:02 -!- limetree [~ircuser@li147-249.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:02 -!- whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pjunukfrsgqzosmz] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:04 maxm-: hmm, i haven't touched it yet. i only know superficially about generic functions. 14:19:09 Okay, yes, GFs are useful. 14:19:18 well that, and that SBCL is able to compile stuff into pretty efficient machine code too 14:19:52 paul0 [~paul0@187.58.226.227] has joined #lisp 14:19:52 Xach: well.. is there anything more to "lisp, the idea" than syntax/macros? 14:19:54 At the same time, that precise inversion (GFs instead of object->method) makes it harder to have "smart" editors. 14:20:04 its not just generic functions, but the ability to redefine classes, inheritance, basically anything on the fly 14:20:14 Xach: by that i mean, "code=data", though that's incorrect if interpreted directly :) 14:20:24 it just blows anything like "hot replace" in java which works only 50% of the time out of the water 14:20:37 nyef: lambda list congruence makes it less hard 14:20:41 what I *personally* find makes LISP very different is sane numerics. 14:21:03 superflit [~superflit@71-33-144-99.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:29 zvrba: I ask because "LISP" as an idea is not very topical, but Common Lisp is. 14:21:37 Xach: ok, then CL. 14:23:08 zvrba: programmable reader, CLOS, conditions, pretty printer, several mature and active implementations, bignums, package system, keywords, format, loop, complex lambda lists, compiler macros, compilation semantics, disassemble, um...more... 14:23:19 complexes and ratios. 14:23:40 What makes Lisp macros special? 14:23:49 Xach: More that you can't as easily start with an object and ask "what functions can I call on this?" 14:23:55 whoops [u549@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-emvpxaolxvhgpoyp] has joined #lisp 14:24:27 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:24:27 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 14:24:27 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:27 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 14:24:27 df [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 14:24:27 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 14:24:27 xharkonnen [~xharkonne@2.26.51.144] has joined #lisp 14:24:27 BrianRice [~water@97-126-59-7.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:27 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 14:24:27 spacebat_ [~spacebat@ubermonkey.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:27 sbryant [~freenode@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 14:24:27 Quetzalcoatl_ [~Administr@cpe-75-186-5-185.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:24:27 egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:24:27 limetree [~ircuser@li147-249.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:24:28 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:24:33 nyef: but it's a little nicer than starting with object.method(...) and not being able to answer "what is allowed to go in the ...?" 14:24:38 TautologicalCode: they aren't simple text substitutions, but manipulate ASTs with full power of the language 14:25:30 Xach: um, wow. thanks :) 14:25:45 Xach: restarts for me, today 14:25:58 H4ns: sorry, i already gave the complete list, no more may be added. 14:26:05 Not even the debugger or trace. 14:26:06 damn. 14:26:14 restarts are pretty awesome and don't exist in any other language that I know of 14:26:19 Xach: hm. almost an operating system. 14:26:21 even superficially 14:26:49 dlowe: they exist in R 14:26:51 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 14:26:53 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 14:27:20 Krystof: R is always full of surprises. Mostly because of its terrible documentation. 14:27:43 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-236-179.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:48 Krystof: I've been using R for years and had no idea :/ 14:28:00 now. has anybody implemented a code walker that could output a somewhat readable C translation of given LISP code (adherring to some chosen subset that is easily mapped to c). 14:28:15 ECL compiles lisp to C 14:28:16 dlowe: ?withCallingHandlers and ?withRestarts 14:28:27 zvrba: Nobody writes it "LISP" any more. 14:28:28 dlowe: also, would you be interested in being an extreme alpha-tester for my slime-for-R? 14:28:43 Xach: ok. 14:29:08 zvrba: I haven't heard of anyone doing that, though there is one that translates something very CL-like to Java. 14:29:09 Fade: it's not readable, though 14:29:14 (actually I don't mean "alpha-tester", I mean "co-hacker") 14:29:21 well... it's C 14:29:23 the "readable" part 14:29:28 ;) 14:29:47 Krystof: I'm afraid my newborn is taking up all my time :/ Otherwise I'd be happy to 14:29:52 newborns 14:29:55 can't you just run it through a pretty-printer? 14:29:55 tell me about it 14:30:56 zvrba: http://voodoo-slide.blogspot.com/2010/01/amplifying-c.html 14:33:07 "But lets look at C as a platform for a minute. ..." boy, he is right. 14:33:10 dlowe: thanks for the link. 14:33:50 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.213.183] has joined #lisp 14:34:32 idea for sbcl: use cl-amplify or some similar system to generate the C code for the runtime 14:36:43 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.213.183] has quit [Client Quit] 14:39:28 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:42:05 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-aphfzyldbzayfdsw] has joined #lisp 14:42:06 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 14:42:27 Wait, I've seen this before... scexp? sexpr-c? Something like that? 14:43:23 hi Blkt 14:43:33 hello there 14:43:48 nyef: chandler had scexp, iirc 14:44:50 Xach: That's probably what I'm remembering. Its name got changed at one point, too. 14:45:58 yeah, that's what I was actually looking for 14:46:26 anyway, sbcl already requires a host lisp. Might as well. 14:48:08 Kajtek [~nope@91.150.221.230] has joined #lisp 14:48:36 Yuuhi [benni@p54839ACA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:39 -!- KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:54:40 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.5.83] has joined #lisp 14:54:54 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has joined #lisp 14:56:29 KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:05 -!- dwim [~dwim@3.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dwim] 14:59:58 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:00:06 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-185-29.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:07 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-185-29.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:00:07 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 15:00:15 no partial match/stream support in cl-ppcre 15:00:17 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:34 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 15:01:53 sbryant- [~freenode@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 15:02:25 xharkonnen_ [~xharkonne@2.26.51.144] has joined #lisp 15:02:30 egn_ [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:17 spacebat [~spacebat@ubermonkey.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:44 Anyone familiar with the NST unit-testing framework? Looks like there was a talk about it at ILC 2010. Just curious what people think  I'm working on a project that uses it. 15:04:13 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@58.212.31.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:04:38 ramusara_ [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:05:09 limetree_ [~ircuser@li147-249.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:05:34 -!- sbryant [~freenode@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:05:34 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:05:34 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:05:34 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:05:34 -!- xharkonnen [~xharkonne@2.26.51.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:05:34 -!- Quetzalcoatl_ [~Administr@cpe-75-186-5-185.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:05:34 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:05:34 -!- spacebat_ [~spacebat@ubermonkey.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:05:34 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:05:35 -!- egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:05:37 sellout: ask rpg 15:05:43 -!- limetree [~ircuser@li147-249.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:05:54 oudeis [~oudeis@89-139-13-130.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:06:35 -!- pnathan [~Adium@76.178.165.160] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:07:03 sellout: I'm on the phone right now. I could probably discuss it with you in a minute. 15:07:37 Quetzalcoatl_ [~Administr@cpe-75-186-5-185.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:08:02 rpg: Well, I found the ILC paper and am going through it. Was just looking for general thoughts/opinions at the moment. 15:11:15 hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:28 KingNato_ [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 15:12:28 -!- KingNato_ [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:14:52 -!- KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 15:17:42 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 15:18:20 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@89-139-13-130.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:22:23 oudeis [~oudeis@89-139-13-130.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:22:41 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:24:00 I think there are two challenges working with NST: (1) it was written under ACL at first, and so is not especially SLIME-friendly. 15:24:21 It heavily uses the ACL REPL, and it turns out that SB-ACLREPL cannot be used with SLIME 15:24:48 SLIME commands for NST have been on the todo list for a very long time, and seem unlikely to move to "done." 15:25:59 -!- Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-23.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:26:27 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:27:57 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:28:32 why is sbcl now showing only the last line of the documentation string ? 15:28:46 it does not anymore show docstrings fully...... 15:29:46 wbooze: maybe (describe ...) (FORCE-OUTPUT) ? 15:29:57 uhh, why's that ? 15:30:41 Only the last line, and not everything but the last line? 15:30:46 or maybe not 15:30:47 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@89-139-13-130.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:30:47 yes 15:30:52 only the last line 15:30:53 In what context? The REPL, SLIME, something else? 15:31:00 BlankVerse [~pankajm@103.246.106.11] has joined #lisp 15:31:22 in repl 15:31:25 no slime 15:31:25 rpg: Why can't SB-ACLREPL be used with SLIME? 15:31:29 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: under the bit stream] 15:31:38 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 15:31:49 only linedit is enabled i think..... 15:31:57 nyef: I think you may be able to use the commands in the *inferior-lisp* buffer, but the parser doesn't work in the slime buffer. 15:32:03 nyef: it can be used, it's just not integrated with SLIME REPL 15:32:08 (unless, as is possible, things have changed) 15:32:17 Ah, so it's more a "slime is being stupid" thing than anything else? 15:32:47 nyef: I don't know whether it's because slime can't hook up with the newly spawned repl from aclrepl or whether its own parser is confused. 15:32:52 Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-23.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 15:33:06 uhh, wait sorry, that's the repl of maxima..... 15:33:21 in sbcl repl all worky 15:33:25 extended-repl from GBBopen provides ACL-repl-like user experience _and_ integrates with SLIME 15:33:32 Someone who is interested should find it relatively easy to set up the SLIME commands. I don't use it often enoiugh to have done it, myself. 15:33:33 wbooze: Tested with a bare REPL, SBCL 1.0.51.42.wider-fixnums--rebase-12-4feed08, (describe 'with-alien) displays the full docstring. 15:33:52 nyef: yes sorry, i was in the maxima repl 15:34:10 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-72-43-20-246.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:34:11 nyef: just tested with (describe 'gensym) in sbcl repl too now, and it works ok 15:34:27 Second issue is that NST eagerly *compiles* a lot of its tests (instead of simply using EVAL on s-expressions). In practice, this seems often to be a poor tradeoff. 15:34:34 wbooze: Fair enough, then. Feel free to file a bug with the maxima people if you want. 15:34:51 so either maxima's is broken or my linedit interferes badly or so....don't know... 15:35:59 trying to comment in the linedit lines in my .sbclrc and restarting maxima..... 15:36:09 sellout: my biggest problem with NST is that it's GPL. all the rest can be easily fixed 15:36:37 aha 15:37:29 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 15:37:50 -!- gko [~gko@220.135.201.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:37:56 sbcl 1.0.52 has been tagged. /topic update? 15:38:11 wah, it works in the console but not when in emacs...... 15:38:21 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-aphfzyldbzayfdsw] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:38:27 wait gonna restart emacs 15:39:14 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:39:20 -!- fe[nl]ix changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.52, usocket 0.5.4, ABCL 0.27.0, anaphora 0.9.4, SBCL officially in Git, slime-indentation changes in CVS 15:39:28 hmmmmmm, using real tabs instead of spaces cannot be the cause or ? 15:39:35 thanks 15:39:40 :) 15:40:49 oh, it's the tex interace again, which cuts some lines and only displays the last..... 15:41:01 when i disable display2d it prints ok 15:41:13 hmm 15:41:41 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:42:45 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@67-194-7-236.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 15:44:12 -!- egn_ [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:44:13 spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.38.175] has joined #lisp 15:44:34 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:45:23 pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has joined #lisp 15:48:46 anyone know of a delimited read function similar to read-line? e.g. `(read-delimited DELIMITER &optional INPUT-STREAM EOF-ERROR-P EOF-VALUE RECURSIVE-P)' => STRING 15:49:30 tsuru` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:45 kpavn [~kpavn@77.41.103.59] has joined #lisp 15:50:42 blackwolf: READ-DELIMITED-LIST, maybe? 15:51:04 blackwolf: there isn't one. roll your own :) 15:51:54 nyef: close, but thinking it won't be efficient. need to read lots of blocks of market data. 15:52:08 Are you ever going to want to escape your delimiter? What style of escapes will you want to use? And so on. 15:52:09 dlowe: was hoping to avoid that .... 15:53:02 blocks of ASCII text, with block prefix (STX) and suffix (ETX) terminators 15:53:11 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 15:53:12 -!- Amyn [~abennama@62.23.212.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:53:36 coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:36 -!- coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:53:36 coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 15:54:10 Looks easily-parsed to me. Writing your own function should be simple enough. 15:55:51 should be. seems that something like READ-DELIMITED would make a good util function - READ-LINE would be (read-delimited #\newline), etc 15:56:23 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 15:56:29 could anyone link me a good open source project that makes heavy use of CLOS? 15:56:30 started to look at sbcl's source for read-line - could hack that up. 15:57:00 electriceel [~chatzilla@59.92.167.250] has joined #lisp 15:57:30 It possibly would be a good util function, but at the same time there are so many different scenarios for delimiters, escapes, nesting, and whatnot that creating just one util function may not be practical. 15:57:37 Blkt: "good" in what sense? 15:58:25 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-191-24.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:58:34 good use of CLOS 15:58:36 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-191-24.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:58:58 Should DIGIT-CHAR-P return non-NIL for numbers which are not in the BASIC LATIN block? (I'm referring to things like arabic numbers, or subscript numbers) 15:59:03 Blkt: I mean, there's McCLIM, which is heavily CLOS-based, but has some truly icky parts... 15:59:14 :) 15:59:17 I see 15:59:18 nyef: generally, possibly. read-line doesn't do escaping though, correct? 15:59:19 I was about to say that 15:59:21 Blkt: quite a bit of CLOS in Hunchentoot 15:59:23 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:28 ah nice 15:59:38 I'll look for Hunchentoot then 15:59:40 loke: So far as I am concerned, I'd be happy if DIGIT-CHAR-P only ever returned non-NIL for "standard characters". 15:59:46 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:00:05 Blkt: hunchentoot has been converted from being function based to clos based, so its design could be cleaner. 16:00:14 hugod [~hugod@bas3-montreal50-2925371414.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:00:18 Blkt: just keep that in mind. 16:00:22 blackwolf: Correct, read-line shouldn't escape. The string-reader should. The #| |#-comment reader needs to deal with nesting and a multi-character terminator. And so on. 16:00:48 loke: I vaguely recall that clisp uses digit properties from unicode tables. 16:00:50 thank you 16:01:06 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-126.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:01:15 loke: i don't think the specification of digit-char-p is explicit on that topic. the glossary is very clear about what "numeric characters" are but that is not mentioned in digit-char-p. 16:01:18 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-126.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:01:25 Xach: yeah, I was looking at SBCL and there seems to be code that's supposed to do that, but things like (digit-char-p #\ARABIC-INDIC_DIGIT_EIGHT) returns NIL 16:01:37 So I was curious as to what the intent is 16:02:10 I think the intent is to be the building-block for parsing the sort of numbers usually used in source code. 16:04:45 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 16:05:53 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-202-22.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:06:06 dwim [~dwim@3.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:14 I find CLIM in general to be a very interesting design, and an impressive use of CLOS, but the implementations tend to suck, and the spec has some rather nasty holes in it. 16:06:55 Didn't CL-GTK have some interesting mapping from Gobject to CLOS? 16:06:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-178-48-172-189.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:06:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-178-48-172-189.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 16:06:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:07:03 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:07:27 Was that the one which broke at some point due to the GTK class hierarchy changing? 16:07:39 I have no idea. I never used it. 16:07:42 And the error message on the lisp side being almost completely opaque? 16:08:09 urandom__ [~user@p548A5840.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:14 Actually, I think it's almost traditional now for GTK bindings to include some custom FFI wrappers based on the GObject meta-information. 16:08:42 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-191-24.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:09:11 nyef: it's actually the correct way to map to GTK3 16:09:48 Fair enough. 16:10:25 Blkt: cl-irc uses CLOS quite a bit as well 16:10:48 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-032.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:11:09 Across all of these projects, you probably have four or five completely different styles of using CLOS. 16:11:23 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-191-24.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:11:28 dlowe: I'll take a look at it 16:11:42 cl-irc's use of clos made me cry a little, many years ago. 16:11:49 nyef: Isn't that the intention of CLOS though? To acommodate all kinds of programming styles? 16:12:21 loke: To a limited degree. It's more the intention of the MOP, which isn't actually part of the standard. 16:12:28 Mmm 16:13:05 I tend to use CLOS classes at the very least when creating data structures. I don't like having unstructured data in lists. 16:13:43 Then I can immediately take advantage of the rest of the CLOS features if and when it's needed. And yes, I like the MOP 16:14:01 Heh. I still use DEFSTRUCT. I still get GF's, but not redefinition support. 16:14:12 nyef: I never use DEFSTRUCT 16:14:21 No point. Just use DEFCLASS 16:14:29 loke: nyef is old school. 16:14:38 I have, actually, been known to start with DEFSTRUCT :TYPE LIST, and progress from there. 16:14:39 he still uses cmucl on hpux. 16:14:39 Xach: :-) 16:14:42 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-191-24.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:14:48 ok, that last part is a lie. 16:14:50 Xach: Oh. Not MacLisp? 16:15:10 I was thinking of going back to basics. ANyone have a copy of LISP 1.5? 16:15:32 jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-67.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:15:53 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-191-24.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:16:11 loke: there's 1.0 floating around 16:16:12 pjb does. 16:16:27 oh, sorry. i think pjb's is aim-8 based. 16:16:42 Hmm... I found it here: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/lisp1.5 16:16:56 However, it seems to be binaries. What are .dck files? 16:17:18 loke: Card decks! 16:17:22 Yay! 16:17:34 Yeah, the readme says it's a bootable card deck 16:17:39 now I just need an emulator 16:17:49 what kind of machine was it running on? 16:17:51 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@67-194-7-236.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Quit: ] 16:17:58 loke: Do what I did when I wanted to try out an old-school lisp: Write your own emulator in lisp! 16:18:04 dunno, I had Lisp1.0 for PDP-1, that was a paper tape 16:18:16 p_l: File extension .ppt ? 16:18:26 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:18:58 nyef: don't think so 16:19:16 it's on trailingedge 16:20:01 sources of LISP 1.5: ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/pub/free/develop/lisp/lisp15-0.0.2.tar.gz 16:20:14 -!- electriceel [~chatzilla@59.92.167.250] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 16:20:14 Patches welcome (there may remain typoes). 16:20:21 -!- H4ns [4ffc9875@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.252.152.117] has quit [Quit: oo] 16:20:40 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has joined #lisp 16:21:20 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:24:08 loke: but I wouldn't say LISP 1.5 is "basics". Of course, all depends on what you mean by "basics". scheme (r5rs) looks more like "basics" to me. Or perhaps ISOLisp. 16:24:55 jdz [~jdz@host65-16-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:25:35 hmm 16:25:40 Is this PDP-1 code? 16:26:24 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:27:34 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: going home] 16:28:33 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 16:29:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:30:01 -!- easyE [b43wkg9l0Q@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:33:37 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 16:33:46 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:34:33 pjb: Kernel is basics :) 16:34:45 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 16:35:51 loke: no, it's 704/7090 code. 16:36:18 loke: LISP is much older than the PDP-1... 16:36:40 I'm reading this... http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/history/lisp/node4.html 16:37:11 So, property lists were new in 1.5... Which leads me to wonder... Has anyone used them in the last 20 years or so? :-) 16:38:07 -!- Guest31252 [~foo@host55-122-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:38:13 They're used a lot in emacs. 16:38:58 levi [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:45 In my current lisp image, there are 37645 interned symbols, 103 symbol plists (0.273 %). 16:41:02 pjb: what are those plists used for? 16:41:07 is it SBCL? 16:41:22 ccl. But this doesn't matter. 16:41:27 I've got 122 packages loaded. 16:41:38 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has joined #lisp 16:41:39 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:41:46 loke: now would be a good time to search your own plists and see what there is on them. 16:42:01 pjb: I don't know how :-( 16:42:19 LOOP over all symbols and check their repsective pslists i suppose.. 16:42:20 There seem to be a lot of swank stuff there. 16:43:12 If you don't know how to find them, why are you asking about them? 16:43:14 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125252 16:43:52 Oh thanks 16:43:53 -!- turnipseed [~csimonm@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: adieu.] 16:45:36 Xpath seems to use it too 16:45:48 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-178-48-172-189.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:45:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-178-48-172-189.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 16:45:48 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:46:19 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:46:23 milanj [~milanj_@109.93.205.53] has joined #lisp 16:46:57 [jast] [~jast]@dslb-178-002-130-171.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:07 Guthur [~user@212.183.140.51] has joined #lisp 16:47:21 -!- [jast] [~jast]@dslb-178-002-130-171.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:47:35 [jast] [~jast]@dslb-178-002-130-171.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:49 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@103.246.106.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:48:08 -!- [jast] [~jast]@dslb-178-002-130-171.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 16:48:41 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.38.175] has left #lisp 16:49:00 -!- Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-23.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50:45 Guest31252 [~foo@host233-122-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:52:06 francogrex [~user@109.130.156.70] has joined #lisp 16:52:42 what other function take :external-format as key as open? 16:52:52 francogrex: LOAD 16:53:12 -!- ramusara_ [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:55:23 -!- e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-mmopxvcgmwfvalrb] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:55:36 write-to-string.. no it doesn't... how would I write to the stdout with an specific external format... does format not take such a key; it doesn't seem 16:56:20 Have you considered trying to use (setf stream-external-format) ? 16:56:50 now i consider it 16:57:11 francogrex: FLEXI-STREAMS can help 16:57:31 I'd like a function that tells me how much RAM a value occupies. Anyone have such a thing for SBCL? 16:57:33 H4ns [57bd7ec7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.189.126.199] has joined #lisp 16:57:36 loke: On what amounts to *terminal-io*? A little bit tricky. 16:57:46 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 16:58:19 reb`: That's a little bit of an underspecified problem, you realize? 16:58:20 nyef: well, no. but isn't *terminal-io* only to be used for character strings anyway? (meaning that the encoding is irrelevant) 16:58:45 loke: The encoding is /absolutely/ relevant for character strings. 16:59:11 loke: Is that EUC-JIS or UTF-8? 16:59:28 nyef: What I mean is that it's irrelevant from the point of view of the Lisp program, since it just writes text. 16:59:54 nyef: the encoding issues would happen in the Lisp implementation, so it's outside the scope of the program 16:59:55 Once again, not always. 16:59:57 encode what you say and decode what you mean 17:00:20 reb`: like http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-dwim/darcs/wui/_darcs/pristine-old/src/util/object-size.lisp ? 17:00:36 nyef: Sure, but an estimate would be nice .... 17:00:37 *maxm-* has no idea why he just typed that 17:00:51 or non-recursively? 17:01:14 -!- jdz [~jdz@host65-16-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:01:37 jsnell: Thanks! 17:02:43 ... I'm trying to figure out why my heap space is exhausted. 17:02:49 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas3-montreal50-2925371414.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 17:03:05 ... because it's been working too hard? 17:04:02 frozencemetery [~frozencem@128.237.121.249] has joined #lisp 17:04:04 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has joined #lisp 17:04:26 -!- kpavn [~kpavn@77.41.103.59] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:04:37 ... because you're running on a gencgc platform with actual conservatism, and there's some garbage on the stack keeping lots of data from being collected? 17:05:45 reb`, jsnell: unfortunately dwim.hu is down again due to hw issues. the latest version of that code is in hu.dwim.presentation 17:06:25 Is there a copy somewhere in a quicklisp distribution? 17:07:16 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:07:22 reb`: and we also have a path-to-root that can give you a path of references from an object to a root object, that keep objects in the heap... that's in hu.dwim.debug 17:08:02 the version in wui shouldn't be too much behind, but it may be broken on recent sbcl's if things changed meanwhile 17:08:11 reb`: you can get an object's address: (sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address object) but can this help you? 17:08:42 francogrex: Combine get-lisp-obj-address with access to sizetab[], maybe? 17:08:49 -!- coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Quit: I need my meds... >.<] 17:11:33 nyef: maybe, I haven't tried those. Honestly when I want to inspect something I try to call lisp from a C function on which I use gdb 17:11:57 Heh. Fair enough. 17:12:07 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:12:18 why is it that member member-if returns the tail of the list in addition to the member satisfying the predicate ? 17:12:33 wbooze: member does the same (: 17:12:36 I rarely need this sort of memory access anymore these days, myself, and avoid gdb as much as possible. 17:12:37 wbooze: it's not named memberp. 17:12:38 felideon: you pang? 17:12:46 attila_lendvai: at least the highlighting thing goes both ways. :) 17:12:53 yes but i don't get the logic behind it 17:13:09 easyE [uwwhBBsWXn@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:18 wbooze: because it's more useful like this. 17:13:19 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:13:31 pjb: how ? an example ? 17:13:32 wbooze: if you have the list starting at the matching element, you can modify the list 17:13:34 dwim: heh, you also get the alarms when we talk about our dwim stuff? :) 17:13:38 EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 17:13:38 Also, it allows to ask (member nil '(1 2 nil 3)). 17:13:39 wbooze: if you want just the element, try FIND 17:13:42 turnipseed [~csimonm@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:44 Yep. :) 17:13:50 aaah 17:13:52 antifuchs: yes I pung 17:13:59 what's up? (: 17:14:21 *felideon* tries to remember 17:14:22 dwim: oh well... you better get enthusiastic about our libs and then the problem is resolved... :D 17:14:37 Heh. :) 17:14:55 ah yes, have you had any issues with full-ack where .lpr files are ignored? 17:15:06 oh man.... 17:15:09 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@128.237.121.249] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:15:19 weird 17:15:26 so like M-x ack RET mycode.lisp never returned anything 17:15:48 felideon: could be! ack typically searches only those files that have known types 17:15:49 oh wait, you probably only use asdf :/ 17:15:57 antifuchs: ah! 17:16:10 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 17:16:12 (to search all files, use --all, or add the files you want to match to the language type definition) 17:16:13 I'll google that angle :) 17:16:19 cool, thanks 17:16:27 I have "--type-set=lisp=.cl,.lisp,.asd" in my ~/.ackrc 17:16:31 could use more (: 17:16:48 yeah like .lpr, you should eat your own dogfood! 17:16:51 :P 17:16:57 muhaha 17:17:05 kpavn [~kpavn@77.41.103.59] has joined #lisp 17:17:48 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 17:18:27 antifuchs: success! thanks. 17:22:38 alkoma [~alkoma@c-98-207-166-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:47 yay! 17:22:52 hahaha 17:24:03 attila_lendvai: Thanks for the pointer to hu.dwim.debug 17:24:53 nyef: I'm not sure what my heap out of memory problem is. 17:25:47 I'm running code that's not mine ... and it uses big arrays of doubles. 17:25:49 wbooze: here is an example: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125253 17:27:02 reb`: dwim.hu is back up temporarily with a damaged filesystem 17:27:14 darcs pull should work, though 17:27:47 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 17:28:04 -!- cfa [~cfa@unaffiliated/cfa] has quit [Quit: home] 17:28:41 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.5.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:28:45 pjb: erm, what does it do ? 17:29:05 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:29:42 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:29:47 wbooze: it returns a list whose sum is the target number, choosing the "best-fit" first, ie. the closest number to the target. 17:30:10 The sizes should be given in decreasing order. 17:31:09 (setf (stream-external-format *standard-input*) ... that's not how it should be right because giving errors 17:31:40 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 17:31:58 francogrex: it is not an accessor. the external-format must be set when the stream is created. 17:31:59 *standard-output* that was 17:32:19 attila_lendvai: I trid checking out http://dwim.hu/darcs/hu.dwim.debug 17:32:38 man commonqt continues rocking so much... (defun make-combo (list model slot) (let ((c (new QComboBox))) (c.addItems list) (connect comboBox "currentIndexChanged(int)" (lambda (n) (setf (slot-value model slot) (elt list n)))))) 17:32:52 I got a couldn't connect to server error. 17:32:55 stuff just writes itself 17:33:08 Xach: such as (with-output-to-string (s) (setf (stream-external-format s) .. ? 17:33:23 reb`: oh well, fs is too damaged to start our server 17:33:51 ssh works, but the web server doesn't 17:34:07 no 17:34:52 francogrex: you cannot use setf with stream-external-format. 17:34:58 francogrex: what are you really trying to do? 17:35:33 :external-format ... is used with open to a file. I wanted to change that used to stdout 17:35:46 *standard-output* 17:35:51 attila_lendvai: Thanks for your help ... 17:36:01 francogrex: Too low-level. What is your overall project and goal? 17:36:44 no project, goal is to print non-latin characters to stdout 17:36:53 francogrex: Thinking about it, SBCL has fd-stream-fd and make-fd-stream. Possibly nasty, but workable. 17:36:54 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has joined #lisp 17:37:12 you can open /dev/fd/1 with the right external format? (-: 17:37:15 francogrex: You know, you could "just" arrange for LOCALE or LANG or whatever it is to be set appropriately before starting SBCL. 17:37:22 nyef: ok. Xach: what do you mean by too low level? 17:37:41 jdz [~jdz@87.8.16.65] has joined #lisp 17:38:08 francogrex: For example, your goal might be "I want to go to the store on the corner of Oak and Ridge" not "I want to break down this brick wall at the end of this alley." 17:38:34 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:38:59 francogrex: You can control the external format of *standard-output* by configuring your locale-related environment variables before starting SBCL. 17:39:17 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:39:58 francogrex: on my system, I use something like exporting LANG=en_US.utf8. 17:39:59 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:40:10 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 17:40:22 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-185-29.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:22 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-185-29.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:40:22 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 17:43:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:43:51 pjb: what's :test (function >=) is that test function greater equal and if so does that apply to the target or the car of the sizes list ? 17:45:48 pjb: target is a member in sizes and it is greater equal to that member ? so it filters all which is less then say 12 on the first recursion ? 17:46:42 pbj: uhh, i think i didn't get it ..... 17:47:10 ok 17:48:26 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-hjczeulidfcvvvgh] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:49:17 left is 13 17 as candidates, wait 17:49:21 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.187.102] has joined #lisp 17:49:35 -!- MimiEA [~Mimi@97-88-12-49.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:52:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@BC24D51B.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #lisp 17:52:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@BC24D51B.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Changing host] 17:52:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:52:38 then it conses a 13 onto 17.nil 17:52:54 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: under the bit stream] 17:53:02 err, on the first recursion so 13 17 is not changed, but the second recursion is begun 17:53:09 hrm 17:53:43 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 17:54:04 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.156.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:54:12 and the second recursion begins with 12-13, -1 17:54:41 since that's not greaterequal 12, it's no candidate, and then it hops onto 17 17:54:50 bleh 17:54:52 lol 17:55:00 loderunner [~loderunne@adsl-074-229-197-048.sip.mco.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 17:56:12 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:57:02 noooooo 17:57:05 i got it wrong 17:57:19 please stop broadcasting your inner monologue 17:58:54 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.140.51] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:59:12 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:00:21 Guthur [~user@212.183.140.51] has joined #lisp 18:01:02 hugod [~hugod@70.24.181.111] has joined #lisp 18:04:53 -!- hugod [~hugod@70.24.181.111] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:06:35 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.162.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:09:53 HG` [~HG@tmo-111-92.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 18:12:32 bleh, so >= is less than equal 18:12:50 not greater equal! 18:13:18 got it ok 18:14:19 wbooze: What? 18:14:42 CL-USER> (>= 4 3) 18:14:43 T 18:15:24 lol 18:15:28 wahahaha 18:17:29 -!- HG` [~HG@tmo-111-92.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:18:07 (member 12 '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14) :test (function >=)) gives me the whole of '(1 2 3 ....14) 18:18:33 but (member 12 '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14) :test (function <=)) gives me only (12 13 14) 18:18:57 wbooze: yes? that's what member does 18:19:41 benny` [~benny@i577A8D92.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:20:16 wtf 18:20:23 rtfm 18:20:46 wtf wtf wtf, i wouldn't expect the first one to give me more then 12 onwards..... 18:20:48 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:20:54 or rtfhs (read the fucking hyperspec) 18:20:59 lol 18:21:08 weird weird weird 18:21:25 wbooze: fix your expectations. 18:21:30 it won't be once you read the fine manual. 18:22:02 wbooze: just go read clhs and then come back with questions from 18:22:02 there cause it's pretty clear in my opinion and everyone else here 18:22:21 wbooze: maybe you actually want the find or remove-if-not functions 18:23:11 -!- benny [~benny@i577A3891.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:23:23 -!- benny` is now known as benny 18:24:13 coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:13 -!- coyo [~unf@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:24:13 coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 18:25:00 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:25:07 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:26:07 dwim_ [~dwim@3.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:54 hi 18:28:10 Lisp Machine Lisp Machine 18:28:25 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:29:01 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.136.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:29:35 -!- dwim [~dwim@3.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:29:59 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.136.127] has joined #lisp 18:30:15 -!- elurin [~user@88.227.115.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:33:35 -!- dwim_ [~dwim@3.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dwim_] 18:37:10 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:38:05 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:40:05 Posterdati: malkovich malkovich? 18:40:41 -!- TautologicalCode [~Tautologi@216.5.141.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:41:18 TautologicalCode [~Tautologi@208.122.35.145] has joined #lisp 18:42:05 hello lispers, i found a book "object oriented prog. in common lisp" by Keene, Sonya E. look like it was published in 1989 - i wonder if the content is still relevant to the current CLOS, is it good time spent reading it? 18:42:19 Yes, it is. 18:42:28 alkoma: yes. 18:42:30 alkoma: that's a pretty good book 18:42:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@80.98.25.142] has joined #lisp 18:42:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@80.98.25.142] has quit [Changing host] 18:42:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 18:42:55 -!- kpavn [~kpavn@77.41.103.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:43:08 wow, thanks! I will spend sometimes chewing it ;) 18:43:14 CL never changes, all the old books well be relevant for a long time, hehe 18:43:39 antifuchs: Tin Machine Tin Machine 18:44:21 which makes me think, a colleague was complaining about the constant change in some programming domains, I really should have recommend CL at that point 18:44:46 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.54.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:44:46 That's why CL is not promoted, nobody has any commercial interest in it. With the other languages, every year or two, there's a new version, so there are new books to be written, new compilers to be sold, and a lot of secondary interest in promoting them... 18:45:45 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 18:46:00 I have a commercial interest in it! Quicklisp Gold! 18:46:19 Guthur: I've got a Queinnec book on lisp, it is quite different from LIsp 18:46:21 A gold edition? At what price? 18:46:54 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:46:59 Xach: the reddit business model? (: 18:47:07 Posterdati: LiSP? 18:47:14 pjb: 1/10 oz of actual gold. 18:47:49 I was actually considering ordering LiSP today 18:48:01 LiSP is a fantastic book. 18:48:04 Is the English translation decent? 18:48:16 antoszka: suppose to be 18:48:28 Still got most other books to chew on. 18:48:32 Yes, it's good enough. But I don't know if there's a translation of the 2nd edition. 18:48:37 if it wasn't price tag I would have ordered it 18:48:44 still considering it thoough 18:49:13 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 18:49:15 ... speaking of the English translation of LiSP, has anyone seen beach lately? 18:49:41 Is it his translation? 18:49:50 his wife's 18:49:51 http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Lisp-Small-Pieces-Christian-Queinnec/9780521545662 18:49:53 Ah. 18:50:03 does that look like the 2nd Ed 18:50:05 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:50:15 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 18:50:38 Doesn't come cheap. 18:50:59 nope, that's the only reason I don't have it currently ordered 18:51:02 nyef: beach will be in amsterdam next week 18:51:12 nyef: he was here in mid-september but I don't see anything in the logs after that 18:51:13 but I want to play around with implementing a Lisp and I thought this would be invaluable 18:51:23 so really tempted to cough up the coin 18:51:28 Okay, cool. 18:51:36 -!- H4ns [57bd7ec7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.189.126.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:51:36 -!- DetroitPowered [d8058d02@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.5.141.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:51:39 Guthur: indeed if you want to implement a lisp, LiSP will be invaluable. 18:51:40 Guthur: you missed the very tiny window of being able to get it for under CAD$5 18:52:21 Guthur: lisp 18:52:31 Guthur: not common lisp 18:52:41 Guthur: de not defun 18:53:23 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:53:50 -!- TautologicalCode [~Tautologi@208.122.35.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:53:55 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 18:54:17 Xach: was that when someone was moving? 18:54:34 I seen the announcement, and indeed LiSP was something I would have went for 18:54:44 but it was gone at that moment 18:54:45 Guthur: http://xach.livejournal.com/133661.html - a pricing glitch. 18:55:07 Guthur: as far as i know, only one or two people got it at that price. everyone else got amazon store credit and no book. 18:55:20 there was enough demand to make it #1 in amazon.ca for a while. 18:55:29 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:55:34 disappointing for them I am sure 18:55:34 hehe 18:55:40 that's pretty cool actually 18:55:43 cfa [~cfa@unaffiliated/cfa] has joined #lisp 18:55:46 evening all 18:55:49 My supervisor came up to me that day and said "You're a lisp guy, did you see that Lisp book was #1 on amazon?" "Yeah. That was me." 18:56:19 haha, the 2.5th programming language proficiency level 18:56:24 added a little more to that TCO doc; feedback would be appreciated -- http://tinyurl.com/6xxzjxc 18:56:43 between "read the book" and "wrote the book", there's "top-10ed the book" (-: 18:56:44 the idea is just to document, in a singke place, which implementations support full tail-call optimisation (elimination), etc. 18:57:10 it's still rather rough though 18:57:27 cfa: let me guess - org mode? (: 18:57:33 yeah 18:57:37 thought i'd give it a go for this 18:57:48 i have mixed feelings about the results 18:58:35 the html is cool, but I'm pretty sure the org document looks nicer than the html (: 18:58:53 yeah, i can upload that too if you like 18:59:26 -!- nicdev_ [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:00:10 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@213.141.130.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:00:22 npoektop [~npoektop@213.141.130.13] has joined #lisp 19:00:37 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@213.141.130.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:00:52 Posterdati: it would probably lean more to CL and scheme, if I implement it 19:00:56 npoektop [~npoektop@213.141.130.13] has joined #lisp 19:01:11 also, i could probably be more consistent with function names throughout [so foo is always the same function in all the example, etc] 19:01:17 i don't think that's a big deal thoughj 19:01:18 But it's more as an exercise and hopefully will provide me something useful for work 19:01:51 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@213.141.130.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:02:08 npoektop [~npoektop@213.141.130.13] has joined #lisp 19:04:07 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:10 Guthur: would clos be usable in that version of lisp? 19:04:11 cfa: Interesting summary of the situation across multiple lisps. 19:05:09 nyef: thanks. 19:06:21 as a ps -- i'd forgotten how user-friendly the clisp repl is 19:06:43 (i did a lot of these tests using a terminal instead of slime) 19:07:25 cfa: i still use emacs even when i don't use slime. M-x shell is preferable to a bare repl in a lot of cases. 19:07:44 linedit helps for sbcl. 19:08:21 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-049-042.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:25 Xach: good point. 19:08:39 re: sbcl; i usually just rlwrap it if in a terminal; similarly with ccl 19:09:57 frozencemetery [~frozencem@128.237.121.249] has joined #lisp 19:10:26 Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 19:11:44 dodo [~dodo@80.87.92.42] has joined #lisp 19:14:07 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 19:14:15 For SBCL, I tend to just be careful with my typing if I'm in a terminal. The primary use-cases there are long-lived server processes living in a screen anyway. 19:14:52 And even there I usually have swank resident, if not running. 19:15:00 *cfa* nods 19:17:14 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-177-201-46.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:46 -!- Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:19:18 Serpens [~Serpens@212-87-13-77.sds.uw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 19:22:34 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:22:55 peterhil [~peterhil@gw.maxisat.fi] has joined #lisp 19:25:56 nicdev_ [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:14 damn 19:26:18 i was in the wrong channel 19:27:02 ? 19:27:03 -!- alkoma [~alkoma@c-98-207-166-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:27:30 i was on #maths talking about why i got the whole of (1...14) instead of (1..12) 19:28:11 and that semantically it makes no sense....that tail thing getting appended.... 19:28:28 *Xach* can think of something else making no sense 19:28:33 wbooze: member doesn't return a single value 19:28:40 drewc [~user@PC687f74269abb-WM0003D709793f.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:41 well, it does 19:28:45 but it's not the value you're thinking 19:28:49 yes yes, but it's confusing 19:29:00 Xach: nick makes more sense however 19:29:03 so stop thinking about it and use find 19:29:22 ok, just one thing, how often is member used in code ? 19:29:27 often not often ? 19:29:47 i hope to not see it much......... 19:29:47 -!- dodo [~dodo@80.87.92.42] has quit [] 19:29:48 wbooze: fairly often. Look, it just returns the cons instead of the value 19:29:56 *nyef* uses MEMBER approximately as often as he needs it... but has no statistics as to how often that really is. 19:29:58 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:30:07 bgs100 [~ian@h173.116.187.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:09 -!- bgs100 [~ian@h173.116.187.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:30:09 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:30:15 ja but it makes the whole constructs meaning .....useless....somehow..... 19:30:26 huh? 19:30:29 I think I find ASSOC to be more frequently used than MEMBER. 19:30:29 *dlowe* uses MEMBER almost exclusively to test for presence in a list 19:30:44 wbooze: nonsense. it returns NIL if nothing was found 19:30:53 that's a useful result 19:31:29 Is there a good use for having MEMBER return the rest of the list (at the located position) instead of just T/NIL? I don't think I've ever found a use for that 19:31:51 wbooze: Might I suggest that MEMBER is something like a hammer... And the things you've been applying it to are SCREWS. 19:31:53 -!- Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:31:56 Qworkescence: list surgery 19:31:58 -!- Serpens [~Serpens@212-87-13-77.sds.uw.edu.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:32:19 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 19:32:40 it's also cheaper 19:32:43 Qworkescence: Consider its application to plists, or even crazier data structures. 19:33:01 nyef, plists is a good example 19:33:09 are* 19:33:13 yes it makes only sense with structures and recursion or so, but else it's confusing just...... 19:33:13 -a +s 19:33:22 They are... until you realize that GETF exists. 19:33:31 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-177-201-46.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 19:33:44 look (member 12 '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14) :test (function >=)) giving me (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14) is a nonsense, meaningwise..... 19:33:47 that's all i say 19:34:03 wbooze: Because THAT'S NOT WHAT MEMBER IS FOR, as we keep telling you. 19:34:08 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-177-201-46.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:14 but why is it called member then ? 19:34:15 lol 19:34:19 dmiles_afk [dmiles@dsl-72-19-48-033.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 19:34:51 Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 19:35:29 wbooze: perhaps try java if this is causing you such consternation 19:35:32 i think i should give up on the meaning of function names...... 19:35:36 wbooze: it's to test for membership in a list. 19:35:36 Qworkescence: plists are not a good example when keys may be confused with values. 19:35:48 wbooze: have you read the hyperspec on the subject? 19:35:53 yes 19:35:55 (am I going over stale ground?) 19:36:05 it's the tail appended to the result list (1....12) 19:36:07 wbooze: you're not supposed to care what sort of value it returns 19:36:21 wbooze: no it isn't. 19:37:00 Xach, Of course. 19:37:03 :test >= holds from 1 to 12 19:37:09 for 12 19:37:22 wbooze: it holds for 1 19:37:22 xan_ [~xan@modemcable210.225-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:37:23 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:37:26 Does CLtL have any good verbiage about why it's called MEMBER? 19:37:38 wbooze: so it's returning the first element of the list that matches 19:37:53 "If some element satisfies the test, the tail of list beginning with this element is returned; otherwise nil is 19:37:56 " 19:37:59 returned. 19:38:03 dlowe: nonsense, it returns all that fit and the tail 19:38:11 (I can't help but think of it in the context of set membership, but that's clearly not quite right... Possibly something to do with MEMQ, though...) 19:38:13 the semantics are clear. what's the problem? 19:38:23 wbooze: the first element of a list is a cons 19:38:25 wbooze: incorrect. 19:38:40 nyef: from the name, I would think it returns the CONS pair whose CAR matches 19:38:40 everything but nil is true, so it's a predicate and a useful return. 19:38:53 wbooze: and the cons contains a value and the rest of the list 19:39:08 the or my expected result is a subresult of what sbcl/common-lisp gives me, i'm ok with that, i think i got it ...i was just confused....as hell 19:39:11 (member 4 '(1 2 3 4)) => (4) 19:39:26 unfortunately, the glossary doesn't define "item" 19:39:45 (which I'd take as the cons pair, not the CAR) 19:39:45 *Xach* is reminded of the "deep C" slides that made the rounds this week 19:39:51 Xach: hah 19:40:00 you can use MEMBER to find items repetitively 19:40:20 I'm pretty happy about the compressed cores in 1.0.52 19:40:42 *Xach* too 19:40:46 (thanks pkhuong) 19:41:07 stassats's hard-disk isn't impressed 19:41:10 The clhs entry for member seems to be missing a word: The argument to the predicate function is an element of list. 19:41:32 first? second? you decide! 19:41:50 dlowe: which section has the "rules for test functions"? 19:42:14 i think it's covered there, but i can't remember the section number. 19:42:19 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/17_ba.htm 19:42:41 still, that's pretty obtuse 19:43:11 If you look at it from the other side, is it acute? 19:43:43 it's like a composition (member 12 '(1....14)) gives me (12..14) and member with :test >= gives me those which hold for the test, in addition to the pure membership 19:44:16 wbooze: I imagine what you really want is (remove-if-not #'>= 12 seq) 19:44:20 wbooze: completely incorrect. 19:44:41 wbooze: forget about member entirely. please. 19:44:47 Xach: in what respect incorrect ? 19:45:05 ITYM (remove-if-not 12 seq :test #'>=) 19:45:05 Xach: that's what i get on my repl 19:45:09 wbooze: MEMBER is returning the tail of the list that starts with the first element that satisfies the test. 19:45:12 s/if-not// 19:45:30 yes the found-one + tail, i told already 19:45:36 stassats: yes, thank you 19:45:38 wbooze: Sure, but you can't say that (+ 1 1) is giving you the square root of the arguments added to 2. 19:45:42 and if there's a :test + those which hold the test 19:45:54 wbooze: It is giving you the sum of its arguments. 19:46:03 wbooze: no, it's not returning a list where the predicate holds across the board 19:46:15 wbooze: Similarly, you are giving a completely inaccurate description of the means by which your result is reached. 19:46:17 it's returning the tail where the car satisfies the predicate 19:46:22 i find this point of bafflement rather baffling. 19:46:25 *dlowe* gives up now. 19:47:03 *Xach* is reminded of brucio's analysis of RANDOM 19:47:05 *austinh* just wants less LOL and weird weird weird as wbooze wrestles with Lisp 19:47:08 the predicate holds only up until 12 i told from 1 on...,ofc it does not hold for 13 14, but member is returning 12 13 14 anyway.....so it's like the result is just a cons of both..... 19:47:14 that's what i told 19:47:21 wbooze: go away. 19:47:23 what was brucio's RANDOM thesis? 19:47:27 Are you still on the topic of (member )? 19:48:03 Fade: http://web.archive.org/web/20070712062436/http://brucio.blogspot.com/2007/06/exploration-and-experimentation.html 19:48:17 ah, excellent. thank you. :) 19:48:33 wbooze: if i do (member 5 '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)), 6 is _never_ tested 19:48:41 does that clarify anything? 19:49:14 cfa: (member 5 '( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) :test (function >=)) try that 19:49:19 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 19:49:42 yeah, 1 passes the test, so that list is returned 19:49:50 where 1 is in the car position, etc. 19:49:59 2 is never tested, etc. 19:50:00 and the 2 passes etc... 19:50:03 NO 19:50:04 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75dce5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:04 oh 19:50:11 there you go 19:50:19 *Xach* hopes it sticks 19:50:30 bleh bleh bleh 19:50:33 tests tend to short-circuit and return early in CL> 19:50:38 ok 19:50:45 wbooze: happy with that explanation? 19:50:48 yep 19:50:50 cool 19:51:05 Posterdati: sorry was afk for awhile, well I would be just pleased to have a workable Lisp that fulfills some functionality let along CLOS 19:51:20 *Xach* wonders if he should list brucio on his lisp resume 19:51:26 but I do have AMOP which would complement LiSP nicely, I think 19:51:34 I miss brucio. :( 19:51:54 alanpearce [~alan@home.alanpearce.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:52:06 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 19:52:15 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.137] has quit [Quit: Offline] 19:52:56 *Fade* laughs at this post 19:53:01 brilliant. 19:53:30 -!- Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:53:33 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:01 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 19:54:20 oh my. 19:54:56 hugod [~hugod@70.24.181.23] has joined #lisp 19:55:06 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:06 Quintessentially bruciotic. :-) 19:56:15 it's sort of sad that brucio didn't have a final "that's it. I'm leaving lisp. Haskell is the one true path!" goodbye post. 19:56:41 hi 19:56:42 when was there a 2nd edition of LiSP 19:57:03 I can't seem to find it, and whether or not it was translated to English 19:57:15 Fade: which post? 19:57:25 there was none. i'm saying there should have been. 19:57:29 he just disappeared. :) 19:58:35 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:58:39 There was a goodbye post, it just wasn't very funny. 19:59:05 did he have any points as to why he preferred Haskell over lisp? 19:59:46 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 20:00:14 it's more pure, I would bet, without knowing who you are talking about. 20:00:15 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.177.159] has joined #lisp 20:00:16 I enjoyed the brucio posts, but it was the comments that revealed the stark raving insanity of arbitrary Internet denizens 20:01:27 -!- hugod [~hugod@70.24.181.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:03:47 Krystof: indeed, those comments are right out of the top draw of not so intelligent commentary 20:04:54 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:05:50 marsell [~marsell@120.20.237.253] has joined #lisp 20:06:21 I feel I've grandly wasted way too much of life by actually reading, and then commenting on them 20:06:26 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-123-220.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:06:27 sellout1 [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:27 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-67.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:07:35 -!- loderunner [~loderunne@adsl-074-229-197-048.sip.mco.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:07:58 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:07:58 -!- tic_ [~tic@c83-249-198-162.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:08:15 kooll [samson_t@sp1.kooll.info] has joined #lisp 20:08:24 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.140.51] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:27 -!- koollman [samson_t@sp1.kooll.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:28 Guthur` [~user@212.183.140.51] has joined #lisp 20:08:30 Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:31 tic [~tic@c83-249-198-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:09:14 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:10:22 loderunner [~loderunne@adsl-074-229-197-048.sip.mco.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:01 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:13:15 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@128.237.121.249] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:13:48 H4ns [57bd7ec7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.189.126.199] has joined #lisp 20:13:56 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:13 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-049-042.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:17:29 nyef_ [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:01 alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-123-220.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:31 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:22:33 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909]] 20:23:09 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 20:28:52 hugod [~hugod@70.24.178.204] has joined #lisp 20:28:55 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-048-226.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:29 eval ignoring the lexical environment makes me sad. :( 20:32:48 marsell: it makes me happy for not making a mockery of lexical scoping. 20:33:02 srs 20:33:05 er 20:33:10 seriously. 20:33:17 *j_king* beats self with english stick. 20:34:59 How does it ignore the lexical environment? 20:35:45 antoszka: it works at the toplevle. 20:36:10 it doesn't ignore anything, but it's just a function 20:36:18 (let ((x 1)) (eval 'x)) doesn't work, even at the toplevel. 20:36:36 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:37:12 rryoumaa [~unknown@ip68-226-111-195.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:23 i'm curious if something exists in cl lore. suppose x = '((a b c) (d e f) (g h i)). i want something like (with-match x (('a input) ('b input) (three output)) ...) which binds three to c because 'a and 'b match the first tuple's first 2 elements. (i might want different syntax but you get the idea.) 20:37:43 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_eval.htm 20:37:46 rryoumaa: there are several pattern matchers. One in cesarum, one in Faré's library, and others. 20:38:40 i'm aware that there are various matchers out there, but is there any that works vaguely like this and is kind of standard? 20:39:06 a fancier thing is to put a predicate in for input too 20:39:07 rryoumaa: the API is easily adapted with a macro. 20:39:16 pkhuong: yeah, I know you compiler guys all dislike eval with the power of a hundred suns. :) 20:39:26 For iterative development it'd sure be handy though. 20:39:28 so you're saying the samantics are equivalent? 20:39:38 yes. 20:40:52 So eval creates its own top-level environment within? 20:40:54 a non-null lexical environment would pose too many questions on the evaluation of the form given to eval 20:40:59 However, you can wrap your form into a binding form to pass the environment subset you want to pass: (let ((x 1)) (eval `(let ((x ,x)) x))) 20:42:13 antoszka: just like any function does 20:42:55 -!- jdz [~jdz@87.8.16.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:43:03 antoszka: it is evaluated in the null lexical environment, which is an environment that has no bindings. 20:43:32 Daditos [~kvirc@unaffiliated/daditos] has joined #lisp 20:43:33 Clera. 20:43:35 Clear* 20:44:50 so what will be the result ? 20:45:00 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@67.194.218.251] has joined #lisp 20:45:01 only value passed ? 20:45:13 the result of what? 20:45:25 Is there some way to capture or list all bindings in the current environment? 20:45:40 no and yes 20:45:42 -!- xan_ [~xan@modemcable210.225-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:46:09 there's no portable way to work with environments, but many implementations provide extensions 20:46:49 Thanks, I'll go dig in CCL's docs then. :) 20:50:13 marsell: what do you mean with "iterative development?" 20:50:20 I can't help but there will probably be better ways of doing what you want without messing with env 20:50:34 maybe I'm just becoming overly conservative in my old age 20:50:57 marsell: in my experience, eval really is useful only on rather rare occasions. 20:51:02 ITYM "more reasonable" 20:51:07 prxq: being able to directly eval expressions in a given lexical scope. 20:51:26 I used it all the time with Ruby and Python. 20:51:35 marsell: why would you want to do that? 20:51:45 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@67.194.218.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:52:02 Because it's an easier and simpler way to understand what's causing a bug. 20:52:11 After that write the test. 20:52:41 i don't really see what are you talking about 20:53:13 The workflow usually goes like this: a test somewhere failed. 20:53:23 marsell: in that case, you may want to use the debugger of your implementation, which usually can access the lexical environment at a breakpoint 20:53:26 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.177.159] has quit [Quit: Offline] 20:53:39 Right, you can do that as well. 20:53:43 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:06 It's just that being able to eval is more pleasant, since you can call actual expressions and experiment a bit. 20:54:07 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 20:54:11 and it would probably me 'more reasonsable' 20:54:20 marsell: you can do that in the debugger 20:54:21 if you have access to the code you also have access to the lexical environment 20:54:50 Yup, that's why I was asking how to get a list of bindings. 20:54:52 you can recompile the code, insert PRINT statements, or whatnot 20:55:11 marsell: and without paying the performance price that is associated with it. 20:55:13 Right, but what if it turns out you're printing the wrong things? 20:55:28 recompile the code with the right things 20:55:46 i don't really see how eval may help here in any way 20:55:52 Which is unnecessary with eval. 20:56:15 recompiling a function is not much of a chore 20:56:31 marsell: you can call expressions in the debugger. What else do you want? 20:56:34 eval cannot do this to begin with, but even if it could, you still need to recompile the code to place EVAL in it 20:56:43 But recompiling and rerunning is more of a chore than eval. 20:57:00 what if you placed it in the wrong place? how would your eval know what to evaluate? would it be a REPL? 20:57:06 prxq: yes, but the debugger works in the null lexical context, as far as I can tell. 20:57:08 marsell: nonsense 20:57:25 stassats: what is nonsense? 20:57:40 nothing you said so far makes any sense 20:57:48 And yes, a REPL is exactly what I'm after. 20:57:56 a modicum of civility would not be bad either 20:58:09 marsell: what impl are you using? 20:58:14 prxq: whoa, what? 20:58:22 I thought I'm being civil? D: 20:58:26 marsell: lisp debuggers can evaluate expressions in the lexical environment of the breakpoint. 20:58:36 marsell: there is no need to resort to eval for that 20:58:44 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 20:58:45 marsell: i did not mean you 20:58:49 H4ns: I've been unable to do that. If you can, thank you god! :D 20:59:13 H4ns: can SBCL do it? I've been trying to with CCL, and so far I haven't figured it out. 20:59:14 marsell: i'd suggest that you familiarize yourself with lisp more rather than to apply hacks that you learned from lesser languages :) 20:59:23 marsell: if you're using slime (and sbcl), you can navigate to the stack frame you want and press "e" there 20:59:35 sigi-ntb [~sigi@host-213-189-171-25.brutele.be] has joined #lisp 20:59:37 both CCL and SBCL can do that 20:59:41 this will evaluate the expression in that stack frame's environment 20:59:42 Yeah, I'm only trying that hack -solely- because I couldn't figure it out. It's not that I want to. :) 20:59:42 marsell: in the debugger, go to the frame that you want to evaluate something in, type e and then your expression. (with slime) 20:59:52 lack of civility and smugness you know you have arrive in Lisp land, hehe 21:00:14 Guthur`: we're working on improving this ): 21:00:18 (at least I hope) 21:00:31 Okay, this is great news. I'm using SLIMV, not SLIME, but if SLIME can do it, then there's a way somehow. 21:00:36 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@aqu33-5-82-245-96-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:00:39 Anyway, thanks guys. This is great news. :) 21:01:15 marsell: the debugger has a command line you can use to navigate stack frames. 21:01:53 marsell: also, availability of bindings may depend on the optimization settings (i.e. some bindngs might not even exist) 21:01:57 -!- Guthur` is now known as Guthur 21:02:38 dwim [~dwim@3.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:03 Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 21:04:10 vjacob [~vjacob@78-105-184-157.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:04:52 -!- Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:30 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:05:43 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75dce5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:06:15 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 21:07:40 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-048-226.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:07:54 -!- dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-fjqheixkdzplddon] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:08:59 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@67.194.218.251] has joined #lisp 21:10:06 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:40 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@dancol.org] has left #lisp 21:22:43 dlila [~dlila@72.53.74.234] has joined #lisp 21:26:06 elurin [~user@85.99.69.174] has joined #lisp 21:28:53 dwim_ [~dwim@238.Red-83-33-83.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:21 -!- dwim [~dwim@3.Red-83-42-45.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:30:23 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.140] has joined #lisp 21:31:01 frozencemetery [~frozencem@128.237.121.249] has joined #lisp 21:31:22 -!- dwim_ is now known as dwim 21:32:24 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-72-43-20-246.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:32:59 does anyone know of some simple asdf system that calls an external command during load-op? i'd like to build a TAGS file automatically. 21:34:49 alkoma [~alkoma@c-98-207-166-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:19 H4ns: http://common-lisp.net/project/trivial-shell/ is what i use for such things 21:35:46 H4ns: Something like sb-grovel? That's probably not LOAD-OP, but... 21:35:50 drewc: hm, i think i don't need an extra run-program as asdf's should be good 21:36:03 nyef_: ok, i'll have a look 21:36:05 thanks! 21:37:20 H4ns: yeah, good point. 21:37:35 The soon-to-be deprecated asdf run-program? 21:37:53 Deprecated in favor of what? Doing everything in Lisp? 21:38:02 xcvb-driver! 21:38:10 quicklisp does everything in Lisp, AFAIK. 21:38:29 This accounts for its succcess, IMO. 21:38:42 I'm not sure it's really going to be deprecated. I don't remember what the final suggestion was. 21:38:47 H4ns: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/blob/master/grovel/asdf.lisp 21:38:53 ah yes, http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/asdf-devel/2011-October/002201.html 21:39:10 -!- dmiles_afk [dmiles@dsl-72-19-48-033.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:39:12 pjb: I though it was the name 21:39:36 fe[nl]ix: thanks! that's what i needed. 21:40:17 pjb: I thought it was the way it just plain worked just about everywhere? 21:40:37 that's a consequence. 21:40:41 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-169-234.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:30 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.84.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:41:38 Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 21:42:05 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:42:18 -!- Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:42:56 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-174-11.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:43:03 dontbehero [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:43:04 hei 21:43:15 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:43:21 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:43:33 is it simple to make a list of words with deffinitions and the search them? 21:43:41 like a dictionary. 21:43:45 I've been quite lucky in that when I ask implementors to add things for me, they have. 21:43:54 dontbehero: yes, very simple. one easy way is with a hash table. 21:44:29 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:45:49 -!- nicdev_ [~user@static-72-74-85-37.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:46:53 phax [~phax@5e01214f.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 21:46:53 -!- phax [~phax@5e01214f.bb.sky.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:46:53 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 21:47:17 does lisp evolve? like for instance python latest version is 3.2. 21:47:23 which lisp is latest version? 21:47:44 dontbehero: common lisp does not evolve. it is fixed. libraries evolve, though. 21:47:49 I have mixed stable/testing. 21:48:00 oops wrong chan 21:48:18 so how to upgrade the libs? 21:48:22 Our understanding of lisp evolves, our implementations of that understanding evolve, but the standard never changes. 21:48:24 how many are they? 21:48:42 dontbehero: there are loads of libs. use quicklisp to install them 21:49:09 dontbehero: quicklisp is a centralized library repository. it is released in regular intervals. 21:50:15 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:50:39 can programs run from command line? or always need to run within sbcl? 21:51:05 -!- Kajtek [~nope@91.150.221.230] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:51:20 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has joined #lisp 21:51:23 dontbehero: you can create standalone programs. during development, most lispers use a long-running lisp process, though. 21:52:09 -!- cfa [~cfa@unaffiliated/cfa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 21:52:46 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has quit [Client Quit] 21:52:51 During deployment, a number of lispers use a long-running lisp process. 21:52:52 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-191-24.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:52:59 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-191-24.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:53:00 (Typically, a webserver.) 21:53:09 lolwut?? 21:53:14 like apache?? 21:53:29 sulrich [~sulrich@2607:f2f8:a2d0::2] has joined #lisp 21:53:40 dontbehero: what do you mean by "lolwut"? can you rephrase? 21:53:40 I have a hunchentoot server behind apache mod_proxy now. 21:53:41 dontbehero: like hunchentoot 21:53:53 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:07 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:54:08 -!- sulrich [~sulrich@2607:f2f8:a2d0::2] has left #lisp 21:54:10 H4ns: http://lolwut.com/layout/lolwut.jpg it's a thing kids say these days. 21:54:15 (In fact, just reset the data store back to the initial dummy data load twice in the past hour.) 21:54:20 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 21:54:50 sykopomp: it is a pear saying the "words" "lol" and "wut"? what does it mean? 21:55:00 *H4ns* feels like old. 21:55:16 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has joined #lisp 21:55:18 H4ns: "haha I don't understand a word you are saying/you are speaking nonsense and I am making fun of you" 21:55:30 sykopomp: ah, comprendre! 21:55:41 dontbehero: no. he was serious. 21:55:49 sykopomp: thank you for translating! 21:56:02 ;) 21:56:28 I am sorry but this is the first learning about 'long running process' 21:56:40 and using a webserver to code. 21:57:03 this looks like trolling :) 21:57:25 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.187.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:57:29 I am not trolling. 21:57:47 *dontbehero* currently reading over http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/ 21:58:18 dontbehero: good choice! 21:59:25 dontbehero: Developing with CL is a little different than with most other languages. Instead of changing a few lines and recompiling/rerunning a script, you change the state of the running program (the definitions, variables, etc), and rerun functions without shutting down. 22:00:36 marsell_ [~marsell@120.20.248.241] has joined #lisp 22:01:15 well I was aware of this behavior applying live changes, but didn't know using a webserver. 22:01:21 I thought sbcl did that. 22:01:34 Umm... Does hunchentoot do any logging by default, or have built-in logging capabilities? 22:01:49 nyef_: no/yes 22:02:03 nyef_: the release is a bit bad in that respect. the git version is much saner 22:03:05 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.20.237.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:03:05 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:03:06 -!- marsell_ is now known as marsell 22:03:40 Fair enough. 22:03:40 time to release the git version! (-: 22:03:50 antifuchs: right!!!! 22:04:40 antifuchs: i'll do it before november quicklisp, promised. 22:04:42 The problem I'm having is that my app is sending useful error messages, but the client merely reports that it didn't get a JSON-format response... And not having any logging on the server means that the message is basically lost. 22:05:47 nyef_: have you actually looked at the documentation for logging? 22:06:00 Nope. 22:06:02 nyef_: i think it should work if you enable it, but it is not enabled by default. 22:06:17 I did just find the apache logs, but they're not quite helpful either. 22:06:23 nyef_: the git version logs to *standard-output* by default, at least as far as i remember. 22:06:28 Okay, thanks. 22:06:29 H4ns: yay! (: 22:06:31 -!- sid3k [~user@li298-167.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:32 (no rush) (: 22:06:53 I'm probably going to have to start putting my own condition classes and whatnot in anyway. 22:06:55 fmeyer [~fmeyer@c95185de.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 22:06:58 antifuchs: well, i think it should go out, finally. it has been far too long since the release. 22:07:05 agreed 22:07:27 Right now I'm just doing (error "Whatever ~S, blah blah ~S" ...) sort of thing. 22:07:27 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-219-19.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:08:04 nyef_: that'll end up as a 500 error that is not meaningfully logged in the release under most circumstances :( 22:08:15 Joy. 22:08:49 So, my first line of defense is going to be to talk the client developer into doing better error reporting, at least for the initial versions. 22:09:09 And my second line of defense is going to be to produce more meaningful errors on the server. 22:09:34 Possibly even sending them back as some sort of JSON response. 22:10:01 Anyway, not a major priority right now. Thanks for the help. 22:10:04 nyef_: that'd make a lot of sense anyway. 22:12:37 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:12:57 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.140.51] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13:07 Mmm. Phase one in process, but the server work gets to be delayed until I get some higher-priority work done. 22:13:32 nyef_: if you set hunchentoot:*show-lisp-errors-p* to t, lisp error messages will be sent to the client 22:14:00 Yeah, that's how I'm getting my error messages out now. 22:14:41 -!- mtd [~martin@chop.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:15:27 nyef_: (setf *message-log-pathname* "/tmp/hunchentoot.log") will create a log file, containing error messages and backtraces 22:16:08 nyef_: there is also *access-log-pathname* that you can set for an apache style access log file, if you need that. 22:16:16 Sweet! I'll take a look at those. 22:16:31 nyef_: *verbeug* 22:16:37 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:17:11 gesundheit 22:17:47 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:18:06 mtd [~martin@chop.xades.com] has joined #lisp 22:21:16 Is there any MacLisp emulator/implementation available (for any of: linux/windows/bsd x86)? 22:22:02 dwim: there is simh, which can emulate a pdp-10, which can run maclisp 22:22:16 dwim: but the path is not like in "./configure; make install" 22:22:34 H4ns: I'll take a look, thanks. 22:22:41 dwim: i guess you'll have to find your way through an its install firs. 22:22:42 t 22:24:48 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A5840.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:55 dwim: you made me look. "maclisp simh" is fruitful 22:25:51 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@c95185de.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:26:22 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:26:27 Found it, great. :) 22:26:28 Thanks. 22:26:34 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:30:06 dwim: There are LispM emulators as well, if you want to go that route. The CADR and the TI Explorer. 22:31:06 nyef_: It's ok too, I just want to explore old-ish constructs from the early dialects. 22:31:23 dwim: Mind the "E lambda-list keyword. :-P 22:31:45 That's one of them, yes, and Fexprs in general. 22:31:59 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:32:03 dwim:http://www.unlambda.com/download/genera/ 22:32:52 Didn't that need a x86_64 system? (the genera emulator) 22:33:04 dwim: it does indeed. 22:33:06 It does. 22:33:20 Maybe I can get away with a VM... 22:33:26 And it doesn't seem to cooperate with newer X-server versions (for whatever reason). 22:33:54 in any case, genera is the way to play with like a cadillac style 1990ies commercial lisp system. 22:34:40 Probably give you a better idea of how the environments work than either of the TI Explorer emulators. 22:35:27 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:35:30 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109.93.205.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:37:13 -!- karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37:34 karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:37:36 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@128.237.121.249] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:38:40 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@ZKMCDVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:39:03 H4ns: The backtrace is overkill, but the message file seems otherwise good. Thanks again! 22:39:21 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.187.102] has joined #lisp 22:39:28 nyef_: you can switch off the backtrace if you don't want it, (apropos "backtrace" :tbnl) 22:41:05 Wonderful! 22:41:33 Okay, that's about as useful as that's getting this week, I think. 22:43:29 peterhil` [~peterhil@GZYYMCCCXXXIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 22:46:34 attila_lendvai: is d. :-P 22:46:34 18:31 That's one of them, yes, and Fexprs in general. 22:46:34 18:32 dwim:http://www.unlambda.com/download/genera/ 22:46:34 18:32 Didn't that need a x86_64 system? (the genera emulator) 22:46:34 18:33 dwim: it does indeed. 22:46:36 18:33 It does. 22:46:38 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:47:22 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 22:47:33 Sorry... 22:47:38 attila_lendvai: is dwim.hu dead? 22:48:01 Xach: yes, the same hw failure corrupted the fs, or at least that's the theory 22:48:03 -!- tsuru` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:48:26 same? 22:48:27 Xach: ETA is a day or two, hopefully not more 22:48:37 *Xach* missed earlier context perhaps 22:49:08 yeah, last time we saw some fs corruptions and thought that it's a kvm regression, downgraded, and then saw the errors from the ssd 22:49:41 it is a star-crossed server 22:50:03 Okay, I think my time is up for tonight. 22:50:04 I mean, it's always been the ssd, or the sata controller... 22:50:06 -!- nyef_ [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 22:54:16 -!- paul0 [~paul0@187.58.226.227] has quit [Quit: paul0] 22:55:16 dmiles_afk [dmiles@dsl-72-19-48-033.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:12 Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:35 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:02:43 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 23:02:43 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-219-19.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 23:09:23 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:07 -!- sellout1 [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:10:48 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:13:43 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@67.194.218.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:13:59 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has joined #lisp 23:14:05 -!- sigi-ntb [~sigi@host-213-189-171-25.brutele.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:20:08 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@GZYYMCCCXXXIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:21:03 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-67-201.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:25:11 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:25:38 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:27 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@67-194-12-119.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 23:28:47 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:33:43 Kron [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has joined #lisp 23:33:43 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:34:06 peterhil` [~peterhil@YZMCDXL.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 23:34:28 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.157.224] has joined #lisp 23:36:15 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:38:17 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 23:39:32 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 23:40:37 codelurker [~codelurke@c-65-96-210-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:54 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@c-65-96-210-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:42:07 codelurker [~codelurke@c-65-96-210-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:54 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:46:23 frozencemetery [~frozencem@128.237.121.249] has joined #lisp 23:59:12 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:59:37 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp