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Sorry for being dense. 01:36:38 frx: function-lambda-expression, _if you are lucky_ 01:36:55 ..use a third return value 01:36:57 hmm, no portable way to do it? 01:37:35 You could macrotize defun, etc. 01:37:47 Well, shadow, I guess. 01:38:16 it had to work with existing function. but no big deal I don't really need it 01:38:21 +s 01:38:36 given that we can (setf (fdefinition new-name) #'old-name) and (fmakunbound 'old-name), reliable solution is hardly even possible 01:39:03 I see 01:39:27 Daditos [~kvirc@unaffiliated/daditos] has joined #lisp 01:46:55 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:51:28 -!- alkoma [~alkoma@98.207.166.94] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:56:00 pnathan [~Adium@76.178.165.160] has joined #lisp 01:57:14 -!- pnathan [~Adium@76.178.165.160] has quit [Client Quit] 02:02:25 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:02:38 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@112.3.255.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:06:28 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:06:54 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-185-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:07:09 superflit [~superflit@71-33-185-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:36 -!- fluffycms [~cms@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: 'bye.] 02:09:25 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:14:22 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has joined #lisp 02:14:28 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:15:36 trying to test if my library works on ABCL for fun, but I have trouble getting CFFI to load. "Class not found: com.sun.jna.Native". anyone knows what to do? 02:16:31 fluffycms [~cms@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:32 frx: (java:add-to-classpath "/usr/share/java/jna.jar") 02:16:32 02:16:54 -!- Kron [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:17:27 frx: you may have to install a package with JNA (libjna-java in Debian GNU/Linux) 02:19:31 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:21:08 thanks, let me try 02:24:01 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A00C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:24:56 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 02:27:59 -!- karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:30:15 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:30:32 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:30:48 -!- Joreji 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host closed the connection] 03:57:42 Kron__ [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has joined #lisp 03:57:49 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-44-072.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:57:59 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-44-065.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 03:58:43 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:00:36 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.213.183] has joined #lisp 04:01:19 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-131-40.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:01:20 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 04:05:02 -!- drdo [~drdo@85.207.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:12:26 does ABCL run mcclim yet? 04:12:30 and evening folks 04:15:53 Kajtek [~nope@91.150.221.230] has joined #lisp 04:16:22 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-67-201.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 04:16:30 dmiles [~dmiles@72.19.53.178] has joined #lisp 04:17:07 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-44-065.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:17:23 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 04:20:29 jesusito [~user@147.pool85-49-35.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 04:20:43 zacho_yard [~resu@97.72.154.166] has joined #lisp 04:22:37 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:43 paul0 [~paul0@177.16.110.25] has joined #lisp 04:27:30 -!- jesusito [~user@147.pool85-49-35.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:31:13 alkoma [~alkoma@c-98-207-166-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:05 hi, could someone help me with this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125205 - why is 'var' wasn't set to NIL after the first call to clean-up ? 04:38:45 I would expect to see only one "clean-up" message 04:40:03 easyE [11LTLICO81@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 04:40:15 alkoma: Each call to do-work has its own VAR, basically. And you can do (funcall (do-work)), by the way 04:41:17 Bike: don't you see there's only one call to do-work (for 5 calls to its result) 04:41:35 oh, yes. 04:41:42 the code works as expected here, btw 04:41:45 What's a happening peoples? 04:42:02 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 04:43:21 akovalenko: are you using sbcl? 04:43:27 alkoma: yes 04:43:47 hmmm, so odd, I am also running with sbcl. 04:43:51 and I see one "do-work" & one "clean-up" message 04:44:25 -!- vert2 [~vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-jwceketjcszxfqqy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:44:30 maybe there is a way to screw it up by proclaiming some variables special.. (describe 'var) 04:44:41 alkoma: I see only one clean up on sbcl as well 04:46:51 alkoma: defvar ===> defparameter 04:47:35 alkoma: (maybe it was already defvar'red earlier to the previous version of your code. Defvar never reassigns). 04:47:53 akovalenko: wow, that's it. hmmm, i need to read up on that two forms (macros?) 04:47:58 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:41 i see, it did c-xc-e it a couple of time, before the c-cc-k 04:49:40 akivalenko: thank you. 04:49:44 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-98-150.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 04:49:50 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.16.110.25] has quit [Quit: paul0] 04:53:34 What is the proper way to 'include' another lisp file? 04:54:07 Ie, ive got a foo.lisp which has a package in it, an in main.lisp I want to use said pacakge. 04:54:17 Do I just go (load "/blah/foo.lisp") ? 04:55:35 -!- Kajtek [~nope@91.150.221.230] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:59:40 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 05:00:31 jsoft: LOAD binds *package*, so that's not enough. (load "/blah/foo"), then (in-package :foo) ;; or what's its name 05:01:35 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:02:57 Coolies, thanks 05:03:26 jsoft: within REPL, you may (or even may _have_ to) use something REPL-specific instead of IN-PACKAGE: ,p command in SLIME, :package command in SB-ACLREPL,... 05:03:55 jsoft: *SLIME command is ,+p 05:05:33 cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 05:05:49 -!- gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:06:00 gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:01 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:13:35 hey, does Lisp have "message passing" like Smalltalk ? 05:15:09 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:18:34 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-81-206.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 05:18:39 -!- sykopomp 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[Quit: Verlassend] 07:49:56 ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:11 good morning everyone 07:57:24 alkoma: you can't because CL is a lisp-2. See: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 08:00:00 -!- DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@184.99.13.214] has quit [Quit: DaDaDosPrompt] 08:00:13 newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has joined #lisp 08:00:19 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:00:19 morphling: CL has CLOS, the CL Object System. The terminology is different, but you can write OO programs all the same. So what we have are generic functions, and methods for generic functions, with multiple dispatch (of course, you can write your methods to dispatch on a single parameter class). [o doSomethingWith:a and:b] --> (do-something-with-and o a b) 08:02:46 KingNato_ [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 08:03:13 -!- frx [~frx@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Session timeout)] 08:04:26 Xach: has quicklisp really only been a year? feels much longer ... 08:05:03 I started to use it much later, so it feels much shorter... 08:05:42 flip214: perhaps you started to use it earlier? 08:05:48 -!- KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:05:48 -!- KingNato_ is now known as KingNato 08:05:59 well, no, I thought that I didn't use it for some months, too ... I think the first use was in February? 08:06:06 I'm just getting old ... 08:06:42 (lisp-implementation-type) --> "H.G.Wells Common Lisp" (list-all-packages) --> ("CL" "CL-USER" "FUTURE") 08:07:36 IIRC, there was a FUTURE-CL package on Lisp Machines... 08:08:03 -!- KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Quit: KingNato] 08:10:53 BlankVerse [~pankajm@103.246.106.35] has joined #lisp 08:11:17 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 08:13:12 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 08:14:43 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:15:05 quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-0-99.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:19:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-0-99.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 08:19:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:19:19 -!- 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#lisp 09:33:18 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:37:43 dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-81-206.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 09:38:49 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-208-128.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39:25 -!- Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:40:13 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-81-206.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:41:32 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:35 akovalen` [~user@95.72.45.114] has joined #lisp 09:43:11 -!- akovalenko [~user@95.72.47.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:45:07 cfa [~cfa@unaffiliated/cfa] has joined #lisp 09:45:08 morning all 09:53:57 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 09:54:23 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:54:27 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.61.212.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:57:44 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 09:59:01 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:14 gienah [~mwright@ppp121-44-52-242.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:13 -!- newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:06:10 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:25 gaidal [~gaidal@59.42.112.12] has joined #lisp 10:11:32 venk [~user@r49-2-6-166.cpe.vividwireless.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:23:29 flip214: more than a year now 10:23:34 1 year 1 day! 10:24:32 Too bad I won't go to ECLM, I would have brought a birthday cake. 10:25:45 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 10:28:47 newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has joined #lisp 10:35:23 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:38:00 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:39:39 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 10:39:59 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 10:41:49 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:47:25 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:48:23 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:52:14 Xach: don't believe him, the cake is a lie! 10:52:37 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.22.221.74] has quit [Quit: marsell] 10:53:25 the cake's not a lie, but you may only eat it if you eat all other cakes that have been made from this recipe 10:53:37 gdmorning [~nick@119.185.69.228] has joined #lisp 10:54:09 congrats Xach 10:54:41 wolfpython [~wolf@112.3.255.7] has joined #lisp 10:55:56 -!- gdmorning [~nick@119.185.69.228] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:56:55 X-Scale [email@89.180.170.253] has joined #lisp 10:57:21 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest42831 10:59:27 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:59:55 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-67-201.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 11:02:22 -!- H4ns [5b3d51a4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.61.81.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:05:06 leyyer_su [~user@221.237.8.222] has joined #lisp 11:06:30 Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 11:09:23 add^_ [~add^_^@h188n1c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 11:09:28 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-81-206.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 11:09:33 -!- Guest42831 [email@89.180.170.253] has quit [Quit: Time left until the Epochalypse: 26yrs 14wks 3days 4hrs 4mins 34secs] 11:10:06 X-Scale` [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:06 -!- mogs [~mogs@119.64.49.14] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:10:48 -!- X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 11:11:27 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 11:11:57 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-81-206.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:18:32 mogs [~mogs@119.64.49.14] has joined #lisp 11:20:12 dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-81-206.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 11:21:31 Xach: I really like your new Common Lisp Tips-blog. 11:22:32 johs: thanks 11:22:34 Xach: (Never really properly learned the intricacies of format strings.) 11:23:00 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-81-206.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:23:23 I promise that only 40% of the tips will be about format 11:23:54 johs: that's likely true for most folks 11:25:48 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:26:20 It's a little bit lazy. Not proud of it. :) 11:26:47 For example, it's fairly likely that I've done some horrible stuff instead of using e.g. ~vT. 11:27:03 Because it was faster than looking it up... 11:29:18 BlankVerse [~pankajm@103.246.106.35] has joined #lisp 11:31:42 hakzsam [~hakzsam@64.120.44.106] has joined #lisp 11:33:27 pnq [~nick@AC81CA80.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 11:34:42 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81CA80.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:36:50 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:37:18 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 11:41:32 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.164.23] has joined #lisp 11:43:58 -!- mogs [~mogs@119.64.49.14] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:45:55 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:48:22 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:48:38 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:49:04 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:51:40 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:51:57 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:52:14 e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-dtrnwhfxkekiujse] has joined #lisp 11:54:31 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:54:55 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:56:31 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.231] has joined #lisp 11:57:38 KingNato_ [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 12:00:37 How would I determain what slots a class has? 12:00:46 Using the MOP. 12:01:24 -!- KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:01:24 -!- KingNato_ is now known as KingNato 12:01:27 ... and MOP isn't part of standard CLOS. 12:01:33 Right? 12:01:53 right. Use closer-mop. (clos:class-slots class) 12:02:00 Thanks 12:06:03 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-43-174.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:06:16 H4ns [4ffc95ad@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.252.149.173] has joined #lisp 12:08:15 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:10:06 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:12:27 ZabaQ1 [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:39 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:17:46 lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 12:24:39 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:25:45 I habitually use keyword symbols for go tags. It makes them stand out a bit more to me. Anyone else do that, or have a preference for something else for some other reason? 12:26:29 emacs should be able to indent tags differently than forms. 12:26:40 indentation helps, yes. 12:27:27 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 12:27:53 pjb: in my emacs, there are tagbody situations that do not indent tags differently. 12:28:16 Try M-q ; it works both in emacs-lisp-mode or in lisp-mode. 12:28:52 pjb: no effect 12:29:25 lisp-mode + slime-mode + paredit-mode here. 12:29:44 pjb: and you have different indentation for tags in e.g. dolist? 12:29:52 dlila [~dlila@72.53.74.234] has joined #lisp 12:30:09 No. Just in tagbody. 12:30:15 for me, dolist does not indent correctly either. http://paste.lisp.org/+2OLZ 12:30:17 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:30:26 A bug report is in order... 12:30:28 pjb: ok, then it's not just me. 12:30:52 pjb: So do you use plain symbols? 12:30:54 one would wish to see the label to be indented one character to the left, right? 12:31:58 I don't use tags often enough to remember... 12:33:24 a grep seems to indicate that I use keywords. 12:34:15 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:34:25 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 12:36:33 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@112.3.255.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:38:20 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ptgszxvauaeqqagb] has left #lisp 12:45:11 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:28 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.231] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 12:48:35 xan_ [~xan@modemcable210.225-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 12:48:58 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.139.180.200] has joined #lisp 12:50:27 urandom__ [~user@p548A56B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:19 -!- hugod [~hugod@70.24.182.228] has quit [Quit: hugod] 12:53:28 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.139.180.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:53:41 wolfpython [~wolf@121.237.209.162] has joined #lisp 12:56:48 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:58:08 dwim [~dwim@114.Red-83-61-35.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:57 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.164.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:03:11 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.136.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:03:22 hugod [~hugod@70.24.182.228] has joined #lisp 13:03:33 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.164.23] has joined #lisp 13:04:25 superflit_ [~superflit@71-33-189-5.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:30 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-185-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:04:30 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 13:05:28 leyyer_s` [~user@222.212.185.4] has joined #lisp 13:06:13 -!- leyyer_su [~user@221.237.8.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:09:49 -!- redline6561_nop is now known as redline6561 13:10:09 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:11:22 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:14:23 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.164.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:15:17 -!- xan_ [~xan@modemcable210.225-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:15:29 francogrex [franco@216.86.77.194] has joined #lisp 13:15:44 Hmm, is there an inverse of array-row-major-index? 13:15:55 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:17:14 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-161-45.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:59 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.56] has joined #lisp 13:23:32 Snaffu [~Snaffu@oh-69-34-16-39.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:18 -!- troydm [~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:25:37 hikarudo [~hikarudo@201.86.36.191.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 13:25:56 -!- ZabaQ1 [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:29:06 Xach: like array-col-major-index? 13:29:50 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h188n1c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: add^_] 13:31:40 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:32:38 No, like given an index, returns subscripts. 13:33:27 dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-vqjkiphykafimiqy] has joined #lisp 13:33:30 am0c [~am0c@121.161.159.145] has joined #lisp 13:34:23 or ((lambda (index a) (reverse (rest (reduce (lambda (c d) (multiple-value-bind (q r) (truncate (car c) d) (cons q (cons r (cdr c))))) (array-dimensions a) :initial-value (list index))))) 13 (make-array '(2 3 4))) --> (1 0 2) ; 13:35:04 -!- Daditos [~kvirc@unaffiliated/daditos] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:35:31 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.166.143] has joined #lisp 13:38:28 nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.91.57] has joined #lisp 13:39:12 Kron [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has joined #lisp 13:39:34 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:49 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 13:40:11 is that available in com.informatimago.lisp.utils.arrays.row-major.subscript-related? 13:40:30 Perhaps in com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.array 13:40:41 G'morning all. 13:41:08 No, it's not. But I remember having programmed this function somewhere... 13:42:28 -!- leyyer_s` [~user@222.212.185.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:44:24 Xach: anything under com.informatimago.common-lisp should be programmed in pure conforming CL, and therefore usable on all conforming CL implementations. 13:48:54 xharkonnen [~xharkonne@2.26.51.144] has joined #lisp 13:51:19 -!- dontbehero [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:51:21 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:51:49 dontbehero [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:52:08 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.176] has quit [Quit: Offline] 13:52:20 well, that is a relief 13:52:57 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.166.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:53:36 paul0 [~paul0@177.16.110.25] has joined #lisp 13:56:29 Yuuhi [benni@p54839C86.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:15 X-Scale` [email@89.180.170.253] has joined #lisp 13:59:56 Whitesquall [~notwhites@94.242.156.143] has joined #lisp 14:00:43 Xach: You're probably most likely to know this one... How many things do you think are likely to break if SBCL on x86-64 moves to 63-bit fixnums? 14:01:25 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:01:41 it doesn't already have 63-bit fixnums? 14:01:57 dlowe: No, right now it has 61-bit fixnums. 14:01:59 boggle. 14:02:08 that's a lot of tag bits for a fixnum 14:02:17 63 is more! 14:02:20 nyef: I don't know in advance, but I can test easily enough. 14:02:38 Would this change improve anything? 14:02:40 Well, I can test build-time assumptions, not necessarily run-time assumptions. 14:02:41 I thought SOP was to make a fixnum have a single 0 tag bit so you get your additions for free 14:02:49 Xach: http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git/shortlog/refs/heads/wider-fixnums--rebase is my current tree. 14:03:22 nyef: what's the easiest way to use that link to get an SBCL tree to build? 14:03:35 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 14:04:08 Xach: That... I'm not sure. The clone URL is git://repo.or.cz/sbcl/nyef.git and the branch is wider-fixnums--rebase. 14:04:55 And there's some --reference option to git clone to allow it to pull common objects from another repository? 14:05:10 -!- dwim [~dwim@114.Red-83-61-35.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dwim] 14:05:56 dlowe: SOP is to have your fixnum tags be some number of 0 bits at the low end of the word, but it's not quite as simple as just using one bit for fixnums. 14:06:43 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.154.164] has joined #lisp 14:07:56 dlowe: For example, SBCL on 32-bit platforms has three bits for lowtags, giving eight lowtags total. There are two "other immediate" lowtags, two "fixnum" lowtags, and four pointer lowtags. 14:08:24 nyef: I see. Interesting 14:08:42 and a hightag lowtag, I presum 14:08:46 And there are a number of constraints to their layout... 14:08:53 no, I guess no 14:09:07 I'm getting into a bad habit of missing the last char in a lin 14:09:09 robert[] [~robert@pool-173-66-142-19.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:11 hi lisp 14:09:15 Not really, the "other immediate" lowtags are associated with a "widetag". 14:09:26 -!- X-Scale` [email@89.180.170.253] has quit [Quit: Time left until the Epochalypse: 26yrs 14wks 3days 1hr 4mins 40secs] 14:09:36 is it possible to create a high quality GUI program for GNU/linux using common lisp? 14:09:40 robert[]: yes. 14:09:57 a simple matter of programming 14:10:01 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:03 you mean it's impossible 14:10:11 I don't mean it's impossible 14:10:12 yes. 14:10:19 It's something I would like to do 14:10:19 robert[]: It's possible, but it's rarely done, perhaps? 14:10:20 robert[]: there are both gtk and qt bindings, as well as some others 14:10:26 robert[]: Abandon hope all ye who enter here. 14:10:30 robert[]: You will get to be a pioneer. 14:10:35 ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:09 pjb: Isn't that the sign above the office of one of the Microsoft founders? 14:11:14 how about if I can just code the logic in lisp 14:11:31 robert[]: you could do that too 14:11:41 robert[]: I've used the gtk bindings and they worked fine 14:11:55 nyef: I'm afraid I don't know the magic words and the stuff I'm trying is failing when trying to generate a version. 14:12:32 nyef: I don't know, I never worked at Microsoft. 14:12:37 robert[]: I guess my point is that writing a high quality gui app is hard in any language. 14:12:55 Xach: Hunh. I don't know how to diagnose that, either, since I've basically been offline since shortly before the switch to git as system-of-record. 14:13:34 that's true 14:14:15 Xach: It was worth a shot, at least. Thanks for trying. 14:14:34 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16:50 Xach: which words fail you exactly? 14:17:10 i successfully added a remote nyef have, and it started compiling ok 14:17:59 dlowe: Anyway, when the initial x86-64 port was done, the lowtag space got even crazier, with two more other-immediate tags and six "pad" tags. And the ordering was chosen to minimize the amount of code changes required to get things running. 14:18:11 git clone git://repo.or.cz/sbcl/nyef.git sbcl-nyef ; cd sbcl-nyef ; git checkout origin/wider-fixnums--rebase ; sh make.sh 14:18:26 robert[]: The other problem is that there's no big-commercial backer for GUI libs, only few creators who might also do consulting for them. If you're willing to pay for commercial CL environment like LispWorks or Allegro Common Lisp, you can get well-supported GUI easily 14:18:39 Can't run 'git describe' and version.lisp-expr is missing. 14:18:43 Xach: hmm, i added a remote to my existing git repo 14:19:29 Xach: this err' reminds me that your git version is to new/old I think. they seem to have changed the syntax of 'git-describe' 14:19:50 Xach: try making a local branch instead: after cloning, git branch fixnum-widetags origin/wider-fixnums--rebase; git checkout fixnum-widetags 14:20:07 nyef: I see. So you're attempting to remove the porting cruft from the x86-64 tag layout 14:20:09 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 14:20:25 Xach: your command should end you up in a detached head 14:21:13 jdz: no luck. i'll just use a fake version 14:21:42 dlowe: And a further complication is that some internal code assumes that an unboxed, aligned byte-pointer, when interpreted as a boxed value, is a fixnum that is a word-pointer. 14:21:58 Xach: that's too bad. on the bright side, i'm running the self tests now. 14:22:09 aliao [~user@115.63.132.116] has joined #lisp 14:23:51 -!- aliao [~user@115.63.132.116] has left #lisp 14:27:29 -!- fluffycms [~cms@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: 'bye.] 14:30:58 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.213.183] has joined #lisp 14:31:17 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:31:28 -!- Oladon [~Oladon@c-71-237-71-104.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:31:42 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:03 Joreji [~thomas@75-032.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:32:06 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest76393 14:32:27 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-oxcfaoccokkpwigy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:32:49 pnathan [~Adium@76.178.165.160] has joined #lisp 14:33:06 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:33:22 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:33:44 -!- otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:33:57 otakutomo [~otakutomo@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:35:45 xan_ [~xan@132.207.221.199] has joined #lisp 14:35:48 -!- am0c [~am0c@121.161.159.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:38:49 http://www.gtk.org/language-bindings.php 14:38:52 lisp not mentioned 14:38:56 I wonder why 14:39:14 that's not exactly unusual 14:39:20 Because apart from lispers, nobody knows anything about lisp. 14:39:21 Too many lisp bindings to single out just one 14:39:30 robert[]: search on http://cliki.net/ rather. 14:39:50 are there so many lisp bindings, because each one is so hairy that nobody can face to touch it 14:40:00 so they invent a new one each time 14:40:14 nah, everyone just thinks they can do it better 14:40:17 robert[]: but as I said, forget lisp. Choose one of those languages for which there's a Gtk binding. 14:40:37 I think the best thing is to use python, but I really don't like it 14:40:42 it's the closed to lisp I can see 14:40:57 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has joined #lisp 14:41:01 I would have choosen C++... 14:41:05 <|3b|> isn't guile a scheme? 14:41:32 ... isn't guile a video game character? 14:41:43 <|3b|> even better reason to use it 14:41:44 -!- Guest76393 is now known as X-Scale 14:41:52 robert[]: what will your program do? 14:42:04 I want to make a board game 14:42:30 clisp has a sokoban example. 14:42:45 http://clisp.hg.sourceforge.net/hgweb/clisp/clisp/raw-file/default/modules/clx/new-clx/demos/sokoban.lisp 14:42:57 fluffycms [~cms@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:35 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 14:43:43 cool 14:43:46 Joreji_ [~thomas@75-032.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:43:59 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 14:44:05 robert[]: also, ask on #lispgame. 14:44:22 #lispgames ? 14:44:27 thanks everyone 14:47:46 am0c [~am0c@121.161.159.145] has joined #lisp 14:49:03 -!- hikarudo [~hikarudo@201.86.36.191.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:50:46 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:51:46 -!- fluffycms [~cms@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: 'bye.] 14:52:05 -!- KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:14 KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:26 hikarudo [~hikarudo@201.86.42.40.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 14:55:51 robert[]: or try http://gtk-server.org/ 14:56:15 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.56] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 14:57:04 The intro page lists support for "Steel Blank Common Lisp", maybe somebody should mention the mistake to them... 14:57:08 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-205-53.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:57:39 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:58:03 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 14:58:17 Sounds like you could forge anything you wanted out of it. 14:58:49 heh 14:58:52 LiamH: Well said. 15:01:26 blackwol- [~blackwolf@ool-43568cfa.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:54 -!- blackwol- [~blackwolf@ool-43568cfa.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 15:02:03 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-43568cfa.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:03:11 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-43568cfa.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:15 -!- pnathan [~Adium@76.178.165.160] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:03:17 frx [~frx@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 15:03:53 hello. is it possible to get all the exported functions in a package? 15:04:00 pnathan [~Adium@76.178.165.160] has joined #lisp 15:04:11 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:04:16 -!- wolfpython [~wolf@121.237.209.162] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:04:22 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-198.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:04:24 frx: Yes. Combine DO-SYMBOLS with FBOUNDP... Or something like that. 15:04:49 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:05:07 It's been a while since I've had to do that, so I forget the actual details. 15:05:10 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:05:30 do-external-symbols 15:05:50 See? That's one forgotten detail already! 15:05:53 or loop 15:06:24 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.56] has joined #lisp 15:06:30 nyef: that's what the internets are for 15:06:33 (loop for sym being each external-symbol of package when (fboundp sym) collect sym) 15:06:34 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:56 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest55289 15:07:13 i am getting macros too. should I do functionp instead of fboundp 15:07:33 No, but... have a look at MACRO-FUNCTION and similar. 15:08:59 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:09:44 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 15:09:56 -!- Guest55289 is now known as X-Scale 15:11:22 actually it's fine that i'm getting macros too i suppose. what i want is to get all the exported macros/functions that don't have docstring (so I can add it). should (documentation var 'function) be able to get docstring for all the symbols that evaluate to true with fboundp 15:11:59 do what? that sounds suspiciously useful ... 15:12:07 Umm... Not absolutely certain. How much can you live with false negatives? 15:12:57 <|3b|> isn't documentation independent of whether the symbol is fbound anyway? 15:13:23 I want to see what functions I forgot to add docstring to 15:13:32 doesthiswork [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:36 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:13:44 my code base became too big to do it manually 15:13:47 |3b|: Yes and no. In SBCL, I believe that the primary location for function documentation is actually a literal slot within the function object itself. 15:14:08 (Well, a slot in the debug-fun structure that in turn is in a slot within the function, but whatever.) 15:14:51 <|3b|> sbcl doesn't seem to object to setting function documentation on keywords at least 15:14:52 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.139.180.200] has joined #lisp 15:14:56 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-198.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:15:15 There shouldn't be any reason you can't define a keyword as a function, either. 15:15:44 <|3b|> right, just saying that if we are looking at symbols, it doesn't matter if ther are actually fbound or not 15:16:35 Another question is, "what about setf-functions and setf-expanders"? 15:17:04 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@50.131.44.231] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:17:44 kpavn [~kpavn@77.41.103.59] has joined #lisp 15:17:54 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:39 -!- am0c [~am0c@121.161.159.145] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:23:15 -!- Snaffu [~Snaffu@oh-69-34-16-39.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:25:04 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.56] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 15:25:14 nyef they should be caught too, but i suppose they aren't 15:27:15 frx: try (loop for s being each symbol of :package if (and (fboundp s) (null (documentation s 'function))) collect s) 15:30:00 -!- robert[] [~robert@pool-173-66-142-19.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:31:44 frx: It's a different documentation-type, setf instead of function, and if you have a "complex" setf-expander then the arglist isn't recorded anywhere useful, so DESCRIBE is a touch underwhelming... 15:36:14 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-81-206.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 15:37:05 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has joined #lisp 15:37:36 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.213.183] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 15:38:33 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-81-206.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:39:26 -!- gienah [~mwright@ppp121-44-52-242.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:41:17 help 15:42:48 thanks all 15:42:52 Younder [~john@61.201.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:43:19 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:43:46 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 15:43:51 I am having trouble with a primitive tail recursive model of flatten. 15:46:00 http://paste.lisp.org/+2OM5. 15:47:05 I need it for Isabelle. Otherwise I would just use my ordinary idiom. 15:47:47 I can't for the life of me come up with something that orders at (A B C) 15:48:38 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:48:38 <|3b|> cons e onto (flatten ...) instead of list? 15:49:12 nyef: compiling your branch gives one more error than the master (1.0.52), which is signals.impure.lisp / SLEEP-MANY-INTERRUPTS 15:49:25 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:49:25 -!- redline6561 is now known as redline6561_nom 15:50:14 nyef: i did only one test run on each of them, so might be just by accident 15:50:59 -!- cfa [~cfa@unaffiliated/cfa] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:51:15 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 15:52:26 |3b|, the problem I can't use nconc and yet it has to be O(n) 15:52:55 KingNato_ [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 15:52:55 -!- KingNato_ [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:53:04 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:53:09 |3b|, in fact it MUST be functional 15:53:44 -!- xan_ [~xan@132.207.221.199] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:54:29 <|3b|> ? 15:54:31 urandom_ [~user@p548A4B80.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:24 <|3b|> not tail-recursive either way, since you recurse on rt anyway 15:56:00 *|3b|* might be underestimating the space usage or something though 15:56:31 -!- KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:56:31 -!- Whitesquall [~notwhites@94.242.156.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:56:33 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A56B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:56:50 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 15:59:09 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:00:03 -!- redline6561_nom is now known as redline6561 16:00:29 jdz: That's expected, the branch point is something like three revisions behind 1.0.52, and one of those is removing the SLEEP-MANY-INTERRUPTS test. 16:00:41 Younder: your function works perfectly well as programmed. 16:00:44 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:01:02 Why would you owant (a b c), since you explicitely implemented it to give a right-left post order? 16:01:45 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:03:52 pjb: I am aware of that. It needs to work as (defun flatten (tree) (loop for element in tree if (consp element) nconc (flatten element) else collect element)) 16:03:52 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 16:04:21 nyef: how does one run the compiled sbcl without installing it? i could try running my project here with your branch 16:04:24 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has joined #lisp 16:04:31 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:04:48 -!- francogrex [franco@216.86.77.194] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:04:51 jdz: sh /path/to/sbcl/run-sbcl.sh 16:05:01 -!- Kron [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:05:23 pjb, It is used in a Isabelle proof which assumes it is in infix order 16:05:33 jdz: Explicitly invoking a shell at least used to be important, I don't know if it still is. 16:05:46 is that what you want? 16:06:16 nyef: i'll try without first 16:06:37 jdz: You might lose your running shell when it exits in that case. 16:06:41 nyef: well, the file is not executable here 16:07:26 -!- oiiii [~oiiii@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:26 nyef: got some funions for you 16:07:32 Xach: Oh? 16:07:34 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 16:07:48 Younder: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125213#1 16:08:12 nyef: i'll collect 'em 16:08:16 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has joined #lisp 16:08:49 xan_ [~xan@132.207.221.199] has joined #lisp 16:09:25 pjb, duh! (I feel like an idiot..) Thanks 16:11:44 Younder: the foremost lesson here, is to always write a docstring specifying what the function does. 16:11:49 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-67-201.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 16:12:01 Without that, whatever the function does is what it should do, so there cannot be any bug. 16:12:41 nyef: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125214 16:13:28 not a lot of bad packages... 16:13:38 not at compile-time, anyway 16:13:49 Hrm... N-FIXNUM-BITS... I vaguely recall something about that. 16:14:02 the hu.dwim failures are cascaded from the hu.dwim.util failure 16:14:20 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 16:14:34 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.154.164] has left #lisp 16:15:54 The hu-dwim failure is from having used an internal symbol of a deprecated "semi-public" package. 16:16:25 -!- Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:16:30 "62 fell through ECASE"? 16:16:53 Why is someone dispatching on the length of most-positive-fixnum? 16:16:53 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 16:17:10 And, especially, why do so in such a fragile manner? 16:17:14 nyef: seems to be working fine, with all 70 dependecies 16:17:55 tsuru` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:23 nyef: i'll be able to give more assuring diagnosis when i have automated tests 16:18:32 nyef: i don't rightly know 16:18:35 Xach: So, aside from the CASE-FAILURE and the PACKAGE-LOCKED-ERROR, are the other package names listed something to worry about? 16:18:41 nyef: no 16:18:54 Okay, so just the two, then? 16:19:21 nyef: yes. 16:19:32 Sweet. Thank you. 16:19:36 nyef: some weird optimizations? 16:20:24 -!- Younder [~john@61.201.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 16:20:37 p_l: Nothing strikes me as especially reasonable. 16:22:20 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: going home] 16:22:50 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:24:31 HG` [~HG@tmo-103-7.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 16:25:05 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-161-45.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:27:51 -!- anonchik [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:28:04 -!- HG` [~HG@tmo-103-7.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:29:03 -!- kpavn [~kpavn@77.41.103.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:29:07 anonchik [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 16:29:14 nyef: http://xach.com/tmp/port.lisp is from fset 16:29:32 see Tuple-Key-Number-Size 16:30:27 Hrm... That's kindof neat. 16:31:28 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 16:31:32 Using (integer-length most-positive-fixnum) is smarter than just grabbing a random internal symbol, to be sure. 16:32:54 At the same time... is that two thirds of the length to the key number (with some rounding) and the remaining bits to the value index? 16:33:04 only mikel evins can say for sure 16:33:31 Mmm. Well, it's /roughly/ two thirds, just by inspection. 16:33:53 he has been pretty receptive to bug reports in the recent past 16:34:10 -!- lonstein [lonstein@173.11.229.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:35:34 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:10 littlegiraffe [~littlegir@64.151.208.2] has joined #lisp 16:36:51 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:37:33 Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 16:39:02 jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-67.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:40:22 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 16:41:43 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 16:42:27 Hrm. The correlation isn't as good at 31 bits and lower. 16:42:58 that's an interesting trick. 16:43:13 Which trick? 16:43:29 tuple-key-number-size 16:43:46 etc 16:44:06 Anyone heard anything about that Irvine Sensors gig? I talked to them and then they went dark. 16:44:10 Oh, you mean packing everything into a single fixnum? 16:44:17 yeah 16:44:37 -!- df [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:45:16 gigamonkey: Only the existence of a job ad for it. 16:45:28 Not even sure if said job ad had been posted, either. 16:46:23 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 16:46:27 df [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 16:46:37 They're looking for folks who know how to deliver product-quality code on SBCL that goes fast. 16:46:38 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:48:19 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:59 Right, time I went looking for food. Back in a few, hopefully. 16:55:14 zimb0 [~boss@41.221.159.83] has joined #lisp 16:55:25 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-173-239-81-206.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:57:07 -!- zimb0 [~boss@41.221.159.83] has left #lisp 16:59:48 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@103.246.106.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:59:51 -!- gcentauri [~gcentauri@76-85-192-184.cable.inebraska.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:00:02 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:01:50 gcentauri [~gcentauri@76-85-192-184.cable.inebraska.com] has joined #lisp 17:03:10 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:04:53 Amazingly enough, most of the restaurants around here are closed, almost as though it was a holiday or something. 17:05:07 -!- bieber [~quassel@162-78.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:05:25 nyef: what country? USA? I heard something about celebrations of this guy who stumbled upon Cuba trying to get to India ;-) 17:07:40 kazagistar [~kazagista@host-174-45-76-252.bzm-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:38 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:08:47 Sounds about right. 17:08:51 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:09:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:10:41 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-tqdhveetoukwykpc] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:11:47 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.1] has joined #lisp 17:12:42 p_l: and there's the issue of the slave trade columbus set up in the west indies. just the kind of guy to warrant a national holiday. 17:13:09 oh I must have joined the wrong channel 17:13:20 could have sweared it was #lisp, hehe 17:13:23 Wasn't there something about him having handed out blankets that would give people smallpox? 17:13:27 swore* 17:13:53 Guthur: At least it's not gun control debates. We used to have those on a semi-regular basis. 17:14:31 well if the Americans are shooting each other at least it's not the rest of us 17:14:38 sorry bad taste joke 17:14:50 blackwolf: dunno, didn't hear much about it, discovery of America was mainly a footnote about end of medieval age for me :) 17:15:17 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-166.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 17:15:22 nyef no, that was Lord Jeffrey Amherst, with the blankets. 17:15:29 (also, some polish guy wandered into Canada some years before Columbus embarked... we're a wandering bunch) 17:15:35 (probably not the first to think of it, but he's famous for it) 17:15:37 does (make-array 0 :fill-pointer t) implies :adjustable t? the extra effort of tying :adjustable t is killing me :-) well not really but I'd rather not if its reduract 17:15:38 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:50 redundant that is 17:15:51 -!- kazagistar [~kazagista@host-174-45-76-252.bzm-mt.client.bresnan.net] has left #lisp 17:16:24 sykopomp: Oddly enough, New Hampshire, New York, and Massachusetts all have towns called Amherst. 17:16:29 -!- H4ns [4ffc95ad@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.252.149.173] has quit [] 17:16:49 was the transmission of disease really understood then though 17:17:08 would he actually have known the blankets would transmit the disease 17:17:20 Guthur: Mechanism? Possibly not. But vector? Oh, hell yeah! 17:17:36 Guthur: transmission by contact is one of the stuff we tend to assume automatically, with biological template in our brain for that. 17:17:46 nyef: Yup. I know there were occasional movements to rename Amherst, MA, but they never made it through (I lived there for a few years). 17:18:07 p_l: contact with the carrier, but the blanket? 17:18:27 Guthur: "Flea on sight!" 17:18:28 not really a worthwhile debate tbh 17:18:35 sykopomp: Neat. 17:18:37 maxm-: I don't think it does. 17:18:44 nyef: Flee? 17:18:50 maxm-: whether you get an actually adjustable array as a result is implementation-specific 17:18:59 Guthur: Umm... No. Flea. 17:19:13 oh well, silly to make a macro for such a small thing. 17:19:14 Guthur: We're talking about disease transmission, remember? 17:19:46 yeah I thought you meant run(flee) when you see the diseased person, hehe 17:20:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-25-172.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 17:20:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-25-172.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 17:20:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:20:13 More when you see the infectious blanket, but yeah. 17:20:14 maybe it's suppose to work like that, sorry, it was lost on me 17:20:15 -!- Amyn [~abennama@64.208.49.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:20:28 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:20:47 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:21:33 maxm-: in one of my projects i have something like make-adjustable-array meant to produce things for vector-push-extend. 17:21:55 *Xach* also has make-string-table for making tables intended to be keyed by strings 17:22:36 *attila_lendvai* reads the backlog 17:22:44 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.140] has joined #lisp 17:22:53 yea I should use vectors more extensively, I have a bad habit of always starting with lists, and later running into performance problems 17:23:11 So... who's in charge of the hu.dwim stuff, anyway? 17:23:19 nyef: what a coincidence! 17:23:21 hopefully I'm not gonna hit any hidden bugs using (map 'vector) a lot rather then mapcar 17:23:27 programming related question: I see a lot trumpeting, especially on LTU, about typing being the solution to bad programs, paraphrasing immensely, but surely it does negate the need for proper testing and if you have proper testing methods then the lack of compile time type checking in dynamic languages is largely negated, no? 17:23:29 nyef: me 17:23:46 nyef: although, that was levy, I wouldn't have written it that way... :) 17:23:53 I understand there may be bias here, and indeed I am considering asking the same question in #haskell 17:24:02 attila_lendvai: Fair enough. You know how to fix it, I hope? 17:24:06 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:24:06 Guthur: religious war time 17:24:15 Guthur: "surely it does negate"? 17:24:35 *maxm-* hits below the belt, what _working_ software had haskell ever produced? 17:24:39 Guthur: the trumpeting is probably mainly due to how nice expansive type systems fit with certain methods designed for code review/testing 17:25:11 maxm-: outside of XMonad, there is quite a bunch of it running in algorithmic trading afaik 17:25:13 Guthur: All the static typing in the world won't help if you're solving the wrong problem. All the testing in the world can't prove that your program doesn't have bugs. 17:25:23 -!- xan_ [~xan@132.207.221.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:25:43 (software whos manual has a section on what to do if your data cause it to blow up with combinatorial explosion does not count) 17:26:02 p_l: well, I actually forgot about x-monad, never used it.. 17:26:38 Xach: sorry I might not have been clear 17:26:41 maxm-: also, I heard of some team that used Haskell in "Enterprise" environment as components in big ERP/CRM/etc integrated systems 17:27:09 nyef: I guess #.(truncate (log most-positive-fixnum 2)) ? 17:27:11 an "implementation/consulting" team, not manufacturer of the main software 17:27:22 attila_lendvai: INTEGER-LENGTH. 17:27:31 fwiw, xmonad hasn't crashed for me, which is more than I can say for stumpwm. 17:27:47 p_l: any links on the haskell / quant stuff, google search on "haskell algorithmic trading" actually produces some "don't do it" results 17:27:57 nyef: I remembered something about such a function, but my google skill failed me... :) 17:28:26 (Really, though... grabbing an internal symbol from a semantically-unrelated implementation package? Eesh.) 17:28:33 sykopomp: XMonad actually did the whole shebang - not just used typing, but also did whole formal verification on the core 17:29:12 attila_lendvai: Feel free to make sure that whatever solution you come up with will handle 62-bit fixnums, as that's actually a build option on the wider-fixnums branch. 17:29:12 maxm-: mainly stuff from people in #haskell and job offers. Mind you, it might not be in the front-line trading software, but various internal analysis/modeling tools 17:29:32 and they still can't seem to handle funky window sizes well 17:29:36 p_l: so maybe it was just made by more thorough developers rather than any inherit benefit in static typing? 17:29:37 *sykopomp* shakes his head. 17:29:38 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.41] has joined #lisp 17:30:17 Guthur: thorough devs who actually got some idea how to use that typing infrastructure of just trumpeting it? 17:30:33 Guthur: the biggest lesson I learned from C@W is that static vs dynamic typing doesn't seem to matter in an of itself... just whatever happens to work best for particular devs. 17:30:45 Some people can't stand arguing with a compiler. 17:31:01 Some people can cook up the entire program in their heads, write it down, and tweak a few things the compiler helpfully reminded them of. 17:31:15 sykopomp: yeah that was kind of my view, I think it's ltu getting my back up a little 17:31:30 and all C++ devs at work 17:31:53 though not many typing theorist would hold up C++, as far as I understand 17:32:08 I've been finding that what I want is to be able to specify a /test case/ that does some static analysis. "Does this function always return when invoked with arguments in this range? Do these invariants hold over these functions across multiple threads?" Stuff like that, but as test-cases. 17:32:52 nyef: quickcheck or whatever it was? 17:33:16 sykopomp: Maybe, I don't know. 17:33:27 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:39 sykopomp: Does that do things like check multithread synchronization invariants and whatnot? 17:33:41 MimiEA [~Mimi@97-88-12-49.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:45 Xach: n-fixnum-bits fix pushed 17:33:48 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-161-45.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:06 1 is not a fixnum 17:34:07 nyef: it's more for autogenerating tests... 17:34:09 2 is 17:34:16 2 is integer 17:34:18 not fixnum 17:34:20 it may not be what you have in mind, exactly 17:34:22 -2 is fixnum 17:34:32 eheh 17:34:40 nyef: sounds like you'd want some variant of bounded model checking. Something like Alloy. 17:34:44 *maxm-* has tons of tests for C++ side of my framework, and very easy to use test harness, over 300 tests, its very helpful.. Still tests not always able to catch anything. 17:34:57 sykopomp: Mmm. What I want is more of a semantic check, not spamming random test cases. 17:35:12 1 is of type BIT 17:35:14 pkhuong: That sounds good. 17:35:26 You specify invariants and assertions, and the program looks for an instance that satisfies the invariants but not your assertions 17:35:29 pkhuong: So, I'm thinking to commit wider-fixnums "soon". 17:35:30 my last example was a bug that kept appearing and disappearing randomly, ended up being that I have a std::set, (needed fast removal) 17:36:00 If it finds one, either your model or your program is borked. If it fails, you're more confident that things are correct than with an actual test. 17:36:05 and iterating it, obviously depends on pointer values, which are kind of random, depend on other code being run before.. And the bug ended up depending on the order of iterating that set 17:36:07 nyef: cool. 17:36:36 nyef: are you going to touch base with mikel evins about fset? 17:36:37 pkhuong: Up for a round of "what's wrong with threads.impure.lisp / binding-stack-gc-safety"? 17:36:48 nyef: probably not. 17:37:22 Xach: I... don't know? 17:38:04 nyef: Well, who do you think is responsible for letting him know that wider fixnums have broken his software? 17:38:11 pkhuong: Fair enough. It's fairly well up there on the "how on earth did this EVER work?!?" scale. 17:38:13 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:38:16 Should he be testing himself? Should someone else email him? 17:39:33 -!- hikarudo [~hikarudo@201.86.42.40.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:39:49 Xach: Good questions. Expecting him to be testing with every release of every lisp system that comes down the pipe is a bit much. 17:40:40 Whitesquall [~notwhites@94.242.156.143] has joined #lisp 17:41:10 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:53 -!- alkoma [~alkoma@c-98-207-166-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:42:08 Xach: Hrm... Looks like fset is originally by someone else? 17:44:34 Scott Burson, iirc. 17:44:53 Hmm, maybe I'm getting people mixed up. 17:45:14 mikel evins wrote folio, but maybe there is no relationship to fset. 17:45:36 From what I saw, the folio source control contains a mirror of some version of fset. 17:46:02 hikarudo [~hikarudo@187.112.223.125] has joined #lisp 17:46:58 Ok, I was mistaken about mikel evins having any control over fset. I wonder if scott burson is interested in patches. 17:48:18 kpavn [~kpavn@77.41.103.59] has joined #lisp 17:48:50 acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 17:48:55 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-67-201.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 17:52:50 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 17:53:53 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 17:54:04 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 17:54:13 -!- hikarudo [~hikarudo@187.112.223.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:54:37 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:54:54 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: under the bit stream] 17:55:56 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 17:57:09 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.41] has joined #lisp 17:57:24 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-2-131-32.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:30 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 17:59:22 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A4B80.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:00:39 hikarudo [~hikarudo@201.86.41.191.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 18:01:55 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:03:27 Younder [~john@61.201.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:09:21 -!- e-user [e-user@nat/nokia/x-dtrnwhfxkekiujse] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:10:25 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-189-5.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:12:13 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has quit [Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...] 18:15:10 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:15:31 alkoma [~alkoma@c-98-207-166-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:00 cfa [~cfa@unaffiliated/cfa] has joined #lisp 18:16:02 evening all 18:16:24 is there an up-to-date (for some value of up-to-date) list of TCO support in the main CL implementations? 18:16:39 or do i just need to rummage in their respective manuals? 18:17:12 cfa: Hmm, I don't think I've seen a single document that describes under which circumstances it will take place in all implementations. 18:17:22 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:17:34 cfa: You could really help future generations by making, publicizing such a thing! 18:17:41 Xach: yeah, not a bad idea! 18:18:16 TCO? 18:18:30 oh tail call 18:19:41 yeah 18:20:49 -!- kpavn [~kpavn@77.41.103.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:21:25 -!- benny [~benny@i577A3FA0.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:21:25 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:22:35 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-166.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:22 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-166.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 18:23:43 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:25:50 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:26:58 Xach: in backlog you mention having a function MAKE-STRING-TABLE. Where might this be located? TIA 18:27:28 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:39 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 18:28:21 Xach: nm I found one in usenet-legend/utils.lisp 18:30:10 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@2620:0:2820:b03:214:22ff:fe45:5204] has joined #lisp 18:31:53 Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:19 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:21 *redline6561* has been meaning to read the usenet-legend code 18:33:10 redline6561: I have found it to be really useful/informative. Like the entire thing is a giant tip-o-the-day :) 18:33:27 -!- alkoma [~alkoma@c-98-207-166-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:33:32 That's about what I expected. :) Friggin' xach. <3 18:34:12 When I read the about info on the naggum archive and heard about the clever bitvector usage, I knew I wanted to read it. 18:34:26 usenet-legend is a bit of a rewrite 18:34:31 still needs to be finished. 18:34:59 gabnet [~gabnet@149.63.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:00 Did Rob Warnock ever give permission to also be 'archived'? :) 18:35:10 He did 18:35:20 Also, is there list of what needs doing on usenet-legend somewhere? 18:35:21 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.187.102] has joined #lisp 18:35:22 kent pitman too. i have to get that done sometime. 18:35:28 -!- littlegiraffe [~littlegir@64.151.208.2] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:35:30 Xach: I noticed recently that alot of Pitman articles are split on C.L.L 18:35:44 redline6561: no. it mostly amounts to how best to slap a web interface on. 18:35:56 mon_key: what does that mean? 18:35:58 Aha. 18:35:59 e.g. they have become separared from the context of the original thread 18:36:16 oh. he doesn't post much any more, i hadn't noticed that pattern. 18:36:21 redline6561, You might want to read Hackers Delight by Henry S Warren Jr. It contains many references to bitmap sets 18:36:59 Amyn [~abennama@LSt-Amand-152-33-14-65.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:37:00 Younder: Duly noted, thanks. :) 18:37:04 Hackers Delight was fun. 18:37:30 Some of the material is pretty much the same as in the PPC Compiler Writers Guide, but that's not entirely a bad thing. 18:38:39 -!- elurin [~user@85.99.35.200] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:38:55 k9quaint-wk [~k9quaint-@64.197.122.130] has joined #lisp 18:39:10 elurin [~user@88.227.115.42] has joined #lisp 18:39:26 -!- akovalen` is now known as akovalenko 18:40:43 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 18:40:53 -!- Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:41:47 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@72.168.55.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43:38 nyef, the bit about prime numbers was new to me. I had much fun with that. 18:43:49 -!- Amyn [~abennama@LSt-Amand-152-33-14-65.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:44:56 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 18:45:01 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:46:46 what are the best lisp books? 18:47:02 It rather depends on the context 18:47:22 killerboy: Practical Common Lisp is a nice Common Lisp book. Paradigms of AI Programming too. 18:47:38 killerboy: if you want to write a Lisp, Lisp in Small Pieces is a good read. 18:47:59 ok, thank you 18:48:21 Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 18:49:46 benny [~benny@i577A3891.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:49:59 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:50:21 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:28 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-213-143.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:53:14 Amyn [~abennama@LSt-Amand-152-33-14-65.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:53:35 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.139.180.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:59:08 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:59:26 if I do (defclass person (:name :accessor name)) does that implicitly create NAME generic function? or I have to create it myself first for portability? 19:00:04 It does implicitly create the generic function. 19:00:10 It produces a syntax error. 19:00:26 so i dont have to do defgeneric name first? 19:00:28 Okay, right. But after that's sorted out it creates the generic function. 19:00:39 You don't have to, but it's strongly recommended. 19:00:55 why? 19:01:02 (SBCL might even be verbose if you don't.) 19:01:09 SBCL doesn't complain. 19:01:14 Really? 19:01:25 Hrm. Don't have an SBCL running right now. 19:01:55 Though I did run into something interesting recently. I created a generic function and added an incompatible method via :reader. It complained when compiling the defclass and then errored at runtime. 19:02:20 Reason number one to use DEFGENERIC: It lets you pick your parameter names. Reason number two: It gives you a place to hang a docstring. There are probably more reasons. 19:02:29 yeah sbcl doesnt complain, it complains about doing defmethod before defgeneric though 19:02:36 superflit [~superflit@71-33-189-5.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:42 Xach: Errored at runtime, and not load-time? 19:02:46 It can help you avoid thinking about classes as a bucket of slots, rather than as participants in a protocol. 19:02:47 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.16.110.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:02:53 Xach: thanks for adding the hh-aws to quicklisp for me 19:02:54 nyef: I did it all at the repl, not sure. 19:03:00 Ah. Fair enough. 19:03:01 wccoder: no problem 19:03:21 *Xach* sticks it in a file to see what happens 19:03:43 so how would you do it? defgeneric before the defclass? 19:04:04 do you create generics.lisp or something 19:04:11 frx: it depends. 19:04:51 frx: I might even go so far as to defgeneric in a separate file, that establishes the generics and any abstract classes for a protocol, then have another file for the concrete classes and other implementation details. It's pretty situational, though. 19:04:57 nyef: Hmm, I guess I must remember wrong, because I can't reproduce it now. 19:05:13 neither in a file nor in the repl. 19:05:28 Xach: Or it got changed in the meantime. Or something else was going on at the same time... 19:06:07 nyef: could be, though it's a pretty small window of fix and it would be a pretty big coincidence that this minor thing that i never mentioned to anyone got fixed the same week as i ran into it... 19:07:32 ooh, now i have to add compressed core support to buildapp 19:08:16 paul0 [~paul0@187.58.226.227] has joined #lisp 19:08:46 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:09:04 dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-166.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:44 vpit3833` [~user@r49-2-6-166.cpe.vividwireless.net.au] has joined #lisp 19:09:57 petekaz [~user@c-71-235-173-87.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:08 -!- venk [~user@r49-2-6-166.cpe.vividwireless.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:11:27 HG` [~HG@tmo-111-92.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 19:11:49 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-166.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:12:51 You can also define methods in the defgeneric form. When the methods are more centered around the generic function, it's good to do so, rather than spread them over several defmethod forms. 19:13:50 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 19:13:54 -!- HG` [~HG@tmo-111-92.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:14:28 I find that my usual pattern extends to using SLOT-VALUE instead of accessors much of the time. 19:14:47 -!- vpit3833` is now known as venk 19:15:22 -!- Amyn [~abennama@LSt-Amand-152-33-14-65.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:15:37 HG` [~HG@tmo-111-92.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 19:16:50 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 19:17:03 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:18:40 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:19:38 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 19:19:44 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:19:46 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:14 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 19:24:27 right, made some progress on documenting that 19:24:29 more after dinner 19:25:10 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has joined #lisp 19:26:54 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@c-68-58-147-105.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:27:11 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-67.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:29:19 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:30:51 xan_ [~xan@modemcable210.225-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:31:34 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:31:56 Amyn [~abennama@LSt-Amand-152-33-14-65.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:33:35 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-133-72.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:33:40 frozencemetery [~frozencem@128.237.254.205] has joined #lisp 19:34:16 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-36-75.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:36:06 nyef: that's not prudent. 19:36:37 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:36:53 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 19:37:15 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:42:34 pjb: What's not prudent? 19:42:43 To use slot-value. 19:43:27 Within the scope of a single file, also containing the class definition, and strictly limited to less than 1024 lines (and typically less than 384 lines)? 19:43:32 This locks in access to that slot. If you add later a subclass, it won't be able to override the access. It might have stronger pre-conditions, and may want to manage the data differently. 19:43:33 It's not part of the public interface. 19:44:32 I always expect subclasses. 19:44:45 Never adhere to absolute rules! Ever! 19:44:59 *akovalenko* is not prudent. 19:45:12 does anyone have a nice cheat sheet for the different data types used in common lisp (describe how to access/copy/modify/... trees/alists/plists/...)? 19:45:35 if you google a bit, there's a CL cheat sheet, on some 50 pages 19:45:43 in a nicely typeset pdf 19:45:43 -!- HG` [~HG@tmo-111-92.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:45:43 http://devcheatsheet.com/tag/common-lisp/ 19:45:46 naeg: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_conses.htm perhaps 19:46:12 http://clqr.berlios.de is the best quick-reference for CL i've seen, though I don't use it myself. 19:46:38 Mmm. I expect alternate implementations of the public protocol. I expect mixins. I do not expect my mixins to be subclassed. I tend to not expect my concrete classes to be subclassed. 19:47:03 (Wait, don't expect my mixins to be subclassed...? That's not quite right.) 19:47:29 hi 19:47:48 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 19:47:52 I'm really sorry but I forgot the line which displays a list in ascii art, do you have that in your mind, please ? 19:48:03 I count mixins as chunks of functionality providing an implementation of a protocol. I expect their internals to not be messed about with. 19:48:50 umm interesting, when I used slot-value it was often as a form of pseudo private slot 19:49:07 Seems to be some variation or application of the "Open Closed Principle". 19:49:20 I use it only to implement special accessors. 19:49:36 hakzsam: maybe pjb knows 19:50:21 (COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.PICTURE.CONS-TO-ASCII:DRAW-LIST list :title (format nil "~S" list)) 19:50:44 pjb: hi 19:50:51 Hi! 19:51:02 Xach: clqr looks nice indeed, I'll print that one - thanks 19:51:35 pjb: # Case studies, Analysis 19:51:44 gave me server overload error 19:52:11 anvandare [~anvandare@78-21-51-40.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 19:52:28 Things happen. 19:53:07 Things do indeed happen, I've seen it 19:53:12 pjb: do you know offhand what the clisp init file is named? 19:53:24 ~/.clisprc or ~/.clisprc.lisp 19:53:24 pjb, thanks 19:54:10 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-161-45.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:54:49 pjb: are there any other names that work, that you know of? 19:54:58 (that is not a variation of .clisprc 19:54:59 ) 19:55:08 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 19:55:12 I don't remember any other for clisp. 19:55:23 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-2-131-32.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 19:55:24 pjb: The weatherspud CL cheat sheet link seems to be broken (I've created an account and logged in there, too). 19:55:31 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 19:55:57 -!- levi [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:56:10 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:56:28 I don't manage those webpages and servers... 19:58:43 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:01:39 I have a question, this list (1 (2 3) (4 (5 6))) is built by 9 cons cells, I'm right ? 20:02:38 (defun count-cells (sexp) (if (consp sexp) (+ 1 (count-cells (car sexp) (cdr sexp))) 0)) 20:02:58 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@128.237.254.205] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:03:07 (defun count-cells (sexp) (if (consp sexp) (+ 1 (count-cells (car sexp)) (count-cells (cdr sexp))) 0)) 20:03:17 (count-cells '(1 (2 3) (4 (5 6)))) --> 9 ; correct. 20:03:32 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:05:53 -!- lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:05 thanks for this very useful function 20:08:06 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 20:10:57 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:42 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-166.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:35 easyE [b43wkg9l0Q@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 20:17:24 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-166.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:17:57 pjb what would we do without you? 20:18:47 You would have to start thinking and program yourself? :-) 20:19:34 *GrayMagiker* would implement the count-cells function, but poorly and probably not returning correct results on all input. 20:20:25 GrayMagiker: For extra credit, explain what sorts of input pjb's version will return an incorrect count for... or not return at all. 20:20:34 pjb, I already have. But sometimes I come to a short. A short iswhere my mind knows I can progress further but my coding will not follow. You saved me today.. Thank you 20:21:16 Yes, nyef's is a good question! Who'll give an example of input that break it first? 20:21:31 I will accumulate it. Never to sak that fromyou again. 20:21:31 what is the difference between (append '(1 2) '4) and (append '(1 2) 4) ? 20:21:50 hakzsam: The former uses QUOTE. 20:21:51 they give the same result. 20:21:57 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:03 none 20:22:15 ok 20:22:31 4 and '4 give the same result 20:22:43 hakzsam: Thus, the former doesn't evaluate the 4 before passing it to APPEND, while the latter evaluates the 4, resulting in a 4, which is then in turn passed to APPEND. 20:22:47 yes, I saw that, thanks to you 20:22:52 hakzsam: apart for symbols, all atoms are self-evaluating. So the only difference between '4 and 4, is the branch taken in eval. 20:23:55 pjb He doesn't understand that 20:24:45 pjb You are too tecky 20:24:53 Younder, indeed, it's hard for a newcomer as me :) 20:25:43 hakzsam: (defun eval (form) (cond ((symbolp form) ...) ((atom form) form) (t (case (first form) ((quote) (check-arguments form 1 1) (second form)) ...)))) 20:26:25 when you (eval '4), you go thru the (atom form) branch. When you (eval ''4) you go thru the (quote) case. In both cases, the result is 4. 20:26:37 hakzsam, pjb is the greatest code wizard in here. But he does not take likely to newcomers. 20:27:02 pjb, ok, I will study this function 20:27:28 hakzsam: you may read AIM-8 for the historical introduction. 20:27:28 Younder, yes, pjb seems to have very good skills in lisp 20:27:33 :) 20:27:41 http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/index.html 20:27:46 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-219-19.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:28:10 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 20:28:31 ok 20:28:52 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.91.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:28:55 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-205-53.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:30:11 how do I exit the lisp prompt? 20:30:22 ch077179: control-D works for me 20:30:27 I am on common lisp fedora edition 20:30:38 there's no such thing :p 20:30:48 0] End-of-File on # 20:30:48 Error flushed ... 20:30:48 0] 20:30:59 ch077179: your common lisp has its own name, too. 20:31:07 ch077179: depends on the implementation Sometimes it's (quit), sometimes (exit). 20:31:07 ch077179: try (quit) 20:31:12 dlowe, maybe, but that's what's printed when I type lisp and hit enter on the cli 20:31:15 ch077179: try (apropos "QUIT") (apropos "EXIT") 20:31:42 (quit) did it thanks akovalenko 20:31:53 ch077179: you can know what implementation you have with: (list (lisp-implementation-type) (lisp-implementation-version)) 20:32:07 thx, will try 20:32:45 ch077179, (exit) 20:33:38 ch077179, I am talking SBCL 20:33:42 *akovalenko* would know that Lisp is really popular when it will start "I've bought a new PC, clicked on the friendly Lisp Alien icon, now how I may quit?" 20:33:52 http://pastebin.com/rZVQKWtB 20:34:01 can someone explain what type of lisp I have? 20:34:09 "CMU" is the thing to note. 20:34:20 ch077179, no 20:34:35 Oh, wow. I'm always surprised to find someone using CMUCL. 20:34:36 -!- acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:34:37 acelent` [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 20:34:41 and whether I need something else to do this lisp trainer http://mypage.iu.edu/~colallen/lp/lp.html 20:35:58 SBCL and CMUCL, in what way do they differ, do I need to worry? 20:36:37 ch077179, http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 20:37:03 ch077179, is way better 20:37:25 SBCL was forked from CMUCL some time ago. It has fewer extensions, is more "portable", and has more than one maintainer. 20:37:43 --buy the book or read it online 20:38:19 So I think that the time for extra credit has expired, but I believe the following (pastebin) would break pjb's COUNT-CELLS function: 20:38:53 which one? 20:39:19 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: checking configuration] 20:39:27 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:39:30 GrayMagiker: In which way does it break COUNT-CELLS? I can think of three basic approaches, each with different effects. 20:39:34 nyef, but what are they? different implementations, i.e. when I use one my code breaks in the other? 20:40:00 (defvar x '(b))(setf (rest x) x)(count-cells x) 20:40:03 ch077179: if you write conforming code, it will work the same in all conforming implementations. 20:40:10 ch077179: They're different implementations of the same language standard, to varying degrees of conformance. 20:40:19 k 20:40:22 It creates a cycle, so the recursion doesn't end (at least not before I ran out of space and clisp errored} 20:40:35 ch077179: there may be implementation specific things, and you should avoid them, by learning the Common Lisp language instead of learning the specific implementation. 20:40:43 -!- Martiini [~martin@88-196-141-145-dsl.rpl.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:40:52 GrayMagiker: Yes, (count-cells '#1=(b #1#)) causes infinite recursion. 20:40:56 Younder, thanks for the link, what I like about that tutorial is the amount of excercises which I think will do me good 20:41:00 Yes, #1=(#1#) will make my function loop until the stack is full. 20:41:01 I have only used SBCL ACL LispWorks CCL 20:41:01 to get the basic concepts 20:41:02 GrayMagiker: Good work, now find two more! 20:41:23 Ah! A fourth method, yes. 20:41:41 Hrm... No, wait... TCO doesn't apply here. 20:42:05 alkoma [~alkoma@c-98-207-166-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:35 So, two more. 20:42:37 ch077179, They were way awakener’s to me. Here I came and knew it all. These abes were humbeling 20:42:38 GrayMagiker: so, now, write a function that gives the correct result even on circular lists. 20:42:47 Anyone else want to try for the extra credit? 20:43:01 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:43:13 nyef: do you think about (count-sexps '(#((a . b) (c . d)) . e)) ? 20:43:21 apart from that lisp interpreter, what else do I need? Bc I fear that the top couple of lines of chapter 2 in the gigamonkey book are not up to date. 20:43:22 ch077179: I haven't tried that tutorial, but if it depends on a specific implementation of CL it should explicitly state that it does. Many of the usual introduction subjects (for example basic functions on lists) are well specified by the standard, so any implementation will work for them. 20:43:26 pjb: Yes, that was one of the ways. 20:43:39 pjb: And I'm counting #S in with that as well. 20:43:45 ch077179: you may wan to use emacs with slime and paredit. 20:43:47 want 20:43:59 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:44:26 So, that leaves one more. 20:44:28 nyef: for #S there's no conforming way to find the value of the slots... 20:44:28 if possible I'd like to have a foss lisp environment 20:44:32 ch077179: 20:44:41 is lispwork obtainable for fedora? 20:44:42 nyef: (well, there would be a kludge, prin1 the structure, and parse it...) 20:44:52 pjb: Do I care? It'll still hide any cons cells in the slots from COUNT-CELLS. 20:45:03 kruth [~chatzilla@c-76-20-179-83.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:06 ch077179: CMUCL, emacs+slime+paredit is entirely foss. 20:45:21 pjb: Surely that can be defeated with a PRINT-OBJECT method? 20:45:22 ch077179: chapter 2 is up to date. The standard hasn't canged since 1994 20:45:36 nyef: well, the question now is that of the specification. Do we want to go thru non-cons atoms? 20:46:04 nyef: you cannot define a print-object method on structure, since prin1 may or may not use it anyways. 20:46:05 pjb: Indeed. Push that one back to the spec. Still, there's another failure mode. 20:46:17 qeed [~qeed@adsl-98-85-61-74.mco.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:41 -!- alkoma [~alkoma@c-98-207-166-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:46:50 ch077179: yes LispWorks does multi processing 20:47:11 Most free CL implementations too. 20:47:15 nyef: If i understand the second example correctly, (count-sexps '(#((a . b) (c . d)) . e)), it fails because it does not end with an atom? 20:47:28 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47:29 ch077179: Mac, Linux or Windows.. Yes 20:47:30 dwim [~dwim@83.61.35.114] has joined #lisp 20:47:41 GrayMagiker: No, because there are two conses in the array that don't get counted. 20:47:44 GrayMagiker: no, it fails because #(...) is a vector, ie. an atom, which is not a cons cell. 20:47:47 risking to offend some maybe :) is it absolutely necessary to use emacs? (long standing vim user) 20:47:49 -!- hugod [~hugod@70.24.182.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:48:11 ch077179: no, it's not absolutely necessary. But it's the most practical way to develop lisp programs. 20:48:12 ch077179: No, it's not absolutely necessary. It's exceedingly convenient, which is why we recommend it. 20:48:13 Davidbrcz [~david@193.54.120.175] has joined #lisp 20:48:14 Ah ha! I suspected my understanding was incorrect, I just couldn't see how. Thanks! 20:48:19 Younder, I expressed myself poorly. I meant is it free of cost (LispWorks) 20:48:25 ch077179: an alternative would be to use Hemlock (which comes with CMUCL). 20:48:36 ch077179, nop you can use eclipse 20:48:45 ch077179: or some other editor, even vim would do, if you have some degree of masochism. 20:48:49 ch077179, no it is not free 20:48:50 nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:26 hm, so if I want foss and no fancy gui-ide, the emacs way remains, correct? 20:49:27 nvi (but REAL programmers use ed) :-/ 20:49:30 ch077179: not necessary, but SLIME+emacs is something that we are recommending as more of an IDE than a text editor. SLIME does quite a bit of nice stufff. SlimV has been recommended here as a partial vi alternative in the past but I haven't tried it 20:49:31 ch077179: vim is nowhere as convenient as emacs for lisp programming, but it's usable. 20:50:03 kk 20:50:07 ch077179, let's put it this way.. Most of us would use Emacs 20:50:33 is there a pretty printer for lisp? 20:50:36 ch077179, we like SLIME 20:50:39 Even lispworks and franz provide emacs modes for their users... 20:50:48 qeed: (cl:pretty-print form) 20:50:54 thanks 20:50:56 ^*pprint 20:51:05 does this warning of inconvenience also apply if I only try to learn some lisp (with the gm book and maybe some other tutorials)? 20:51:06
From the point of view of a *user* of a function, is there any difference between specifying &key and both &rest and &key in the function's lambda list? Does the user have to (ever) know that &rest was specified in the function's lambda list ? 20:51:15 right, fatigue... (cl:pprint form). 20:51:40 dl: Nope. The caller is allowed to ignore &rest in the presence of &key. 20:51:53
nyef: Thanks! 20:52:06 dl: Internally, &key is typically implemented by grabbing an &rest list and parsing it. 20:52:23 dl: notice however that &key has precedence: if you have keys, you must have an even number of &key arguments, collected in the &rest. 20:52:38 ch077179, Might I recomend SBCL, which is free 20:52:39 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.187.102] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:52:51 CMUCL is good to. SBCL is a fork of CMUCL. 20:52:56 too 20:53:01
pjb: right, so the user should ignore the presence of the &rest when trying to decide what arguments to pass 20:53:10 exactly. 20:53:16
... pretend that only &key was specified 20:53:28 &allow-other-keys is handy too. 20:53:43 Moral this is a mess.. 20:53:48 So is :allow-other-keys t. 20:53:54
sweet! Thanks! (that was my reading of the hyperspec, but I needed confirmation so that I can sleep ;) 20:54:09 &allow other keys is sceice 20:54:09 #lisp = Le marchand de sable. 20:54:29 total shit 20:54:56 Oh, I dunno. I figured &allow-other-keys to be &A-O-K. :-P 20:55:28 I rest my case 20:55:36 pjb, you are french ? 20:55:40 I am. 20:55:46 me too :) 20:56:04 Soon we'll be able to create a #lisp-fr. 20:56:07 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 20:56:28 Amyn1 [~abennama@LSt-Amand-152-33-14-65.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:56:46 mmh... I don't think there is lot of lisp programmers in France but we can try to do that 20:56:48 ... We're going to have to hack minion to provide real-time translation between #lisp and #lisp-fr, aren't we? 20:57:21 hakzsam: well, Robert Strandh is teaching a number of new lispers in Bordeaux :-) 20:57:21 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 20:57:31 nyef: that would be useful. There's also #lisp-pl IIRC. 20:57:31 Unepeu ouu der participiant 20:57:34 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.187.102] has joined #lisp 20:57:49 ce pas la ligne 20:58:46 -!- Amyn [~abennama@LSt-Amand-152-33-14-65.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:58:46 pjb, I know... I'm at Bordeaux university :] 20:58:50 splittene non vous 20:59:15 P(at-bordeaux|french-lisper) >> 0.5 :-) 20:59:29 dwim_ [~dwim@91.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:32 -!- dwim [~dwim@83.61.35.114] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:59:35 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:59:36 -!- dwim_ is now known as dwim 20:59:49 My French is terrible but you get the point 21:00:01 Younder: yes, but no. :-) 21:00:21 Xach: ping 21:00:31 rootzlevel [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 21:00:34 Younder, "ce pas la ligne", what do you mean by that ? :) 21:00:53 ... Speaking of Bordeaux, has beach been around recently? 21:00:57 Don't split our Lisp group. We are to few as itis.. 21:01:19 Younder: well, if you judge from fcll traffic, there's no risk. 21:02:11 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 21:02:21 Kron [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has joined #lisp 21:02:24 Xach can be somewhat of an ass-whole agreed 21:02:57 Show some respect for the author of quicklisp! 21:03:04 Present your excuses! 21:03:36 I get kicked off this group often enough 21:03:52 But yes Quicklist is great' 21:03:57 nyef, the beach around Bordeaux is horrible, I prefer the mediterranean sea :) 21:04:04 Younder: that's because you're unpleasant to be around and you don't care. 21:04:04 nyef, do you live at Bordeaux too ? 21:04:46 hakzsam: I'm in the US. But I was asking after a person, not a sandy chunk of shoreline. 21:04:46 dlowe, something like that 21:05:08 rimmjob [~king@adsl-108-207-193-83.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:08 a 21:05:45 is it fair to say that continuations are just when you store state 21:06:15 by how you pass a function as an argument in another function's recursion? 21:06:21 closures store state too. 21:06:31 rimmjob: (f (function g)) 21:07:18 *Guthur* needs to spend a little time to actually fully grok continuations 21:07:22 -!- dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-vqjkiphykafimiqy] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:07:28 (defun f (g) (mapcar g '(1 2 3))) (f (function 1+)) --> (2 3 4) 21:07:34 I keep meaning to 21:07:41 rgrinberg [~rudi@24.52.246.61] has joined #lisp 21:08:57 francogrex [~user@109.130.156.70] has joined #lisp 21:08:58 codelurker [~codelurke@c-65-96-210-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:44 I prefer logic! 21:10:09 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-189-5.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:10:38 (X-1) | X .. what does that do? 21:11:15 superflit [~superflit@71-33-189-5.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:49 cfa: what's up? 21:11:51 -!- nicdev [~user@c-76-24-21-219.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:12:05 Xach: can i send you a link a query (just looking for preliminary feedback)? 21:12:14 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 21:12:21 cfa: sure 21:12:24 cfa: wait, for what? 21:12:39 10100111=>10101111 21:12:55 tco stuff 21:13:04 Hackers Delight 21:13:16 tfb_ [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:26 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:13:43 Younder: You're becoming less coherent over time. 21:13:51 Bit hacking can be addictive 21:13:54 -!- tfb_ is now known as tfb 21:14:04 mobile [~tfb@80.176.160.39] has joined #lisp 21:14:05 Younder: yes, but in 680x0 assembler... 21:14:08 -!- mobile [~tfb@80.176.160.39] has quit [Client Quit] 21:14:53 pjb, 32 bit 21:14:53 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@149.63.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 21:14:57 -!- kruth [~chatzilla@c-76-20-179-83.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238]] 21:17:33 Donald Knuth has done his TAOCP. In 4 he does a bit of them things in Hackers Delight 21:18:46 -!- hakzsam [~hakzsam@64.120.44.106] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:19:38 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-198.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:19:41 Xach: obviously that needs rewriting (just bullet notes at the moment) 21:19:44 Nevertheless Warren's non-presumptive angle is refressing 21:19:44 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-198.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:20:59 -!- frx [~frx@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)] 21:21:43 -!- Kron [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:21:51 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.84.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:22:09 Kron [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has joined #lisp 21:22:13 I love programming and I think you are not much different. 21:22:27 nuff said 21:24:13 -!- hikarudo [~hikarudo@201.86.41.191.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: hikarudo] 21:24:54 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:25:20 hikarudo [~hikarudo@201.86.41.191.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:25:45 -!- hikarudo [~hikarudo@201.86.41.191.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 21:27:22 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:30:27 dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-166.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:35 ok, I have familiarized with emacs and got slime running. what about paredit, pjb? 21:30:42 what is it for? 21:31:16 http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ParEdit 21:31:20 parethesis editing ... Duh 21:31:37 @anyone: if you ever used random file access (like file-position), in what context ? 21:31:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-213-143.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:31:56 seek 21:32:38 You are truly vague 21:32:59 francogrex: In-place updates of a binary-format data file. For anything parsing, I'm more likely to just read up the whole thing into a vector and work in-memory. 21:33:01 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-166.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:33:43 Younder, is this something a beginner needs? 21:33:51 Oh! And there was that one hack to... No, wait. That was in-place update of part of a win32 executable header. I think that counts as a data file. 21:34:04 adam311234 [~user@ool-4352cdab.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:09 on akovalenko's page I don't even see where to put the paredit.el file 21:34:21 nyef: Re PE32[+]: same here :) 21:34:32 nyef, secure that sarcasm 21:34:45 Oh, and then there was when I was messing with a database file too large to just load into memory. That involved a function to seek to a specific page in the file and read it in. 21:35:14 akovalenko: Ever written your own debugging tools for monitoring what an SBCL process does? 21:35:19 ok 21:35:38 ch077179: you may use package archive at http://tromey.com/elpa/ , paredit is available there 21:35:39 Ahh a nit pick pin prick 21:36:16 urandom_ [~user@p548A4125.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:38 Xach, please ban me again 21:36:58 Younder: just type /leave I'm banned. 21:37:12 akovalenko, but that's emacs lisp. I think I am using common lisp 21:37:32 ch077179: slime and paredit are emacs lisp programs. 21:37:34 pjb you are adiaond.. you are the reason I keep coming back 21:37:38 nyef: No: one of the first things I've done was to allow sbcl.exe recompilation without re-dumping the core, so stuffing my own debug code became much easier 21:37:47 oh.. I get it 21:37:52 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.156.70] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:37:59 pjb, where do I put paredit.el 21:38:19 akovalenko: But... re-dumping the core isn't that hard... is it? 21:38:29 ch077179: I have a ~/emacs/ directory where I put those random el files... 21:38:47 Then I put: (require 'cl) (push "~/emacs" load-path) ; in ~/.emacs 21:39:09 MrMc [~user@brln-4db9d99e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:11 and (require 'paredit) (require 'slime), etc. 21:39:29 akovalenko: The real problem was in trying to bootstrap the system, when the slightest mistake caused the SBCL process to simply vanish without a trace. 21:39:29 pjb, I'd rather kill myself 21:39:33 -!- cyrillos [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:42:45 pjb, I am using akovalenko's package manager, it created a .emacs.d/ in my ~ 21:43:21 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:43:23 Good. 21:43:27 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@216.155.213.166] has joined #lisp 21:44:47 nyef: 2 seconds to rebuild an *.exe vs. a minute(?) of make-target-2 if you have after-xc-core _do_ make a difference, especially when you're hacking C parts 21:45:04 akovalenko: Fair point. 21:45:39 nyef: and "not that hard" from people who were willing to live with win32-os.c:Scratch() for years wouldn't convince me, anyway :) 21:45:52 Hah! 21:45:55 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-166.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:46:11 akovalenko, agreed use Linux 21:46:18 ok thanks guys, I guess I am ready :) 21:46:20 And given the amount of trouble I had just dealing with calling MessageBox() from the REPL... 21:46:38 (That one cost about a year before I figured out what was going on.) 21:47:09 nyef: OutputDebugString() can be handy, especially if you're using real Windows and don't have strace & friends 21:47:11 -!- adam311234 [~user@ool-4352cdab.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:47:34 "If I call directly from the REPL, it crashes after dismissing the message box, but if I wrap the call in (let () ...) it works just fine... WTF?" 21:47:38 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@193.54.120.175] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:01 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 21:48:08 Oh, yes. Another one was to get some basic information about the register context and trace the SEH chain every time an exception occurs. 21:48:31 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:50:10 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:50:47 ch077179: I find show-paren-mode useful 21:51:09 use M-x show-paren-mode to try it out 21:51:47 and if you like then add (show-paren-mode t) to you .emacs file or where ever you do you customizations 21:58:23 -!- cfa [~cfa@unaffiliated/cfa] has quit [Quit: bed] 22:01:42 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-55-134.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:01:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:02:06 dwim_ [~dwim@128.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:07 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 22:02:19 -!- dwim_ [~dwim@128.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:54 Guthur, what's that mode useful for? Thanks for the hint. 22:03:11 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:03:24 got it :) 22:04:31 -!- dwim [~dwim@91.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:05:07 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:06:09 Guthur: careful, most modes activate unconditionally if you pass a positive integer; ISTR passing nil or t just toggles them. 22:06:16 (or something dumb like that) 22:06:47 M-x customize-variable show-paren-mode 22:07:31 My usual configuration involves show-paren-mode, no menu bar, no tab bar, no scroll bars, column-number-mode, and probably a small handful of other tweaks. 22:09:39 ditto for me 22:09:54 though the actual config files are rather extravagant 22:09:59 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:10:05 antifuchs: did not know that 22:10:26 I nearly sure M-x show-paren-mode is fine though 22:10:38 without have to go through customize-variable 22:10:51 I meant the M-x suggestion as a try it and see setup 22:11:12 Mmm. In the .emacs. And in the .XResources or whatever file it is. And probably somewhere else as well... 22:11:19 I did wonder about the use of 1 that I often seen though 22:12:48 ditto on the no -bars settings 22:12:58 should be default, hehe 22:13:12 *p_l* has literate elisp config files... 22:13:25 technically I can make them render themselves into LaTeX 22:14:07 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:14:14 Guthur: it bites me every time I try to turn off a mode. First instinct is passing nil, then I restart a couple of times, annoyed, then slap my forehead (: 22:14:17 p_l: could you paste a sample 22:14:36 and then I pass a negative integer 22:15:43 I've only really started explorer emacs and elisp in earnest recently 22:15:50 exploring* 22:16:21 Guthur: it's based on this: http://github.com/eschulte/emacs-starter-kit/ 22:16:30 decided to really ramp up my knowledge of what has become a reasonably important productivity tool 22:16:47 look up its page as well... it's generated from its source (along with docs) 22:17:56 hikarudo [~hikarudo@201.86.41.191.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 22:18:17 http://eschulte.github.com/emacs-starter-kit/ <--- this 22:18:19 vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has joined #lisp 22:22:58 interesting, cheers for the links 22:23:56 *akovalenko* uses [something like] http://paste.lisp.org/+2OML to define a bunch of turn-on--mode and turn-off--mode for Emacs 22:24:43 ah I might just take that from you akovalenko 22:24:55 for my fullscreen toggle 22:26:08 btw fullscreen emacs is pretty nice, specially for laptops 22:26:42 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:00 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:23 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:28:57 Yes. Vive ratpoison! 22:32:46 well I'm not that hardcore I just use wmctrl, hehe 22:33:10 http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/FullScreen#toc6 22:33:50 suppose it depends on what WM you are using 22:34:19 I was disappointed I could not find a working solution for my cygwin env at work 22:35:01 ... So, does emacs for OSX support the new "Lion" fullscreen yet? 22:35:10 LiamH [~healy@64.134.70.59] has joined #lisp 22:36:45 that page i linked doesn't sound too encouraging in that regard 22:36:45 nyef: I think HEAD does 22:36:56 but it fails for me in other areas, so I'm on the last release still 22:37:27 Hmm... Joy. I think my current setup should limp along well enough for a while. 22:38:13 (when using synergy, it messes up alt-as-meta. that's pretty much all) (: 22:38:47 Oh, god. I clean forgot about the atrocious OSX keybindings. 22:39:53 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 22:39:54 Why, oh why, must they have moved meta to where super is supposed to go, and then put some godawful "command" button where meta goes? 22:40:20 One "fill-paragraph" later and your emacs window is gone! 22:40:29 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 22:41:23 I bind it to query-kill-emacs (-: 22:41:27 -!- doesthiswork [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has left #lisp 22:41:33 (one fill-paragraph and "y" later...) 22:42:35 Meh. I'm running emacs in virtual box, with some gnome option to switch the keys back to the way they should be, and a binary patch to keep virtualbox from taking command-q and command-h keystrokes to itself instead of passing them to the VM. 22:42:46 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:43:12 I'm using a Mac keyboard with Ubuntu on work, and find myself using ctrl-key often for keyboard shortcuts in Chrome... And sometimes use command accidentally at work. It's really disruptive. Luckily Emacs has kaybindings of it's own. :-) 22:43:45 -!- duomo [~duomo@cpe-69-204-169-245.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 22:44:16 (I use Mac at home) 22:44:41 Mmm. I use a PC keyboard with my G4. 22:44:51 I mean I try to use ctrl shortcuts with Mac at home... 22:45:01 ... Which I'm going to have to drag into the office soon. 22:45:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:46:22 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.235] has joined #lisp 22:47:27 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:49:07 Right, I'm gone for the evening. 22:49:09 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 22:52:09 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-032.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:52:29 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@75-032.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:54:11 -!- tsuru` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:55:48 -!- Amyn1 [~abennama@LSt-Amand-152-33-14-65.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:56:28 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:56:55 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has joined #lisp 22:56:58 alkoma [~alkoma@c-98-207-166-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:26 Amyn [~abennama@LSt-Amand-152-33-14-65.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:57:55 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.137] has joined #lisp 22:59:07 -!- Kron [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:59:46 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:25 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:01:40 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:03:26 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:52 frx [~frx@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 23:06:43 hello. given (defmethod foo ((obj base-class) how can I make-instance sub class passed to it? 23:07:00 -!- Amyn [~abennama@LSt-Amand-152-33-14-65.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:07:20 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-104-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:10:14 OBJ will be an instance of base-class; so, (make-instance (class-of obj)) 23:11:07 (an instance of base-class or a subclass, I mean) 23:11:43 thanks. after asking I just figured that (type-of obj) worked too 23:12:16 type-of gives you something different than class-of, but usually they are compatible (: 23:12:49 yes it gave a symbol. still worked with make-instance 23:13:07 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:11 yeah, the class and the type usually have the same name; for built-in things, type-of gives you things that aren't compatible with make-instance, though (but so are their classes) 23:14:16 think arrays, and so on 23:14:45 -!- LiamH [~healy@64.134.70.59] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:15:04 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:15:09 schme [~marcus@c83-254-205-42.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:15:09 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-205-42.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 23:15:09 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 23:15:11 BlankVerse [~pankajm@103.246.106.35] has joined #lisp 23:15:47 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:15:54 for arrays neither worked 23:16:03 it's ok though I need it for my classes 23:16:13 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.237.227] has left #lisp 23:17:06 Amyn [~abennama@LSt-Amand-152-33-14-65.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:21:07 LiamH [~healy@64.134.70.59] has joined #lisp 23:21:28 -!- rimmjob [~king@adsl-108-207-193-83.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:22:39 -!- Younder [~john@61.201.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:24:00 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:02 Kron [~Kron@69.166.20.161] has joined #lisp 23:25:18 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-104-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:25:33 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:02 DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@184.99.13.214] has joined #lisp 23:28:03 -!- DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@184.99.13.214] has quit [Client Quit] 23:28:34 DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@184.99.13.214] has joined #lisp 23:35:46 Oladon1 [~Oladon@c-71-237-71-104.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:03 -!- Oladon1 is now known as Oladon 23:36:08 -!- alkoma [~alkoma@c-98-207-166-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:37:51 -!- MrMc [~user@brln-4db9d99e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:40:25 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-137-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:30 duomo [~duomo@cpe-69-204-169-245.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:45:46 how can i get a list of slots of a class 23:47:02 frx: (ql:quickload :closer-mop) (c2mop:class-slots (find-class 'oh-my)) 23:47:10 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@103.246.106.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:47:27 thanks 23:50:02 *Oladon* loves quicklisp. 23:51:06 -!- LiamH [~healy@64.134.70.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:51:18 LiamH [~healy@ip-64-134-70-59.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:02 frx: you may need (c2mop:ensure-finalized (find-class <...>)) for class-slots to succeed 23:53:58 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-104-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:56:52 -!- dontbehero [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 23:56:55 -!- k9quaint-wk [~k9quaint-@64.197.122.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:58:45 -!- LiamH [~healy@ip-64-134-70-59.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:58:56 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:50 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp