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topo [~topo@f053040003.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:59:12 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.106.56] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:59:45 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.106.56] has joined #lisp 01:59:47 -!- mooo [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (Session timeout)] 02:03:12 Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:43 gko [~gko@27.53.82.49] has joined #lisp 02:05:43 -!- jjong [~user@58.225.5.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:10:27 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ilxyeqdfdoiaymla] has joined #lisp 02:12:57 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@46.66.105.16.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 02:17:50 drewc [~user@PC687f74269abb-WM0003D709793f.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:18:52 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-35.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:18:55 ok! first time in #lisp since i got out of the hospital... i missed it :) 02:19:14 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-114.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:19:25 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-114.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:19:25 -!- ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:19:42 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483DAC0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:37 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@c-98-227-187-219.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 02:21:51 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-35.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:21:53 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483D99A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:22:13 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.169.146] has joined #lisp 02:22:16 Cam [~i@trivialand/staff/Cam] has joined #lisp 02:25:02 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-152-64.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:26 drewc: ooh, I didn't know. get well if you still have some recovery left! 02:31:26 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-152-64.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:32:12 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:32:26 attila_lendvai: only about 1 or 2 years recovery, though in 2 months i should be ok-ish :) Turns out that being in a coma is not so good, but i survived and i'm doing a lot better! 02:33:15 and i'm coding lisp again, so how bad can i be? 02:33:53 -!- topo__ [~topo@f053033191.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:34:12 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-152-64.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:19 drewc: wow, that sounds scary! but judging from your tone, you'll be all fine... :) 02:34:56 topo [~topo@f053033191.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 02:36:07 i don't remember the incident at all... apparently i fell from a scaffolding that was on a large powerboat.. but yeah, i'll be fine :) 02:36:55 drewc: let me know if I can help you with anything! e.g. you're my guest for a few out of order feature requests for any lib I have the commit bit for... :) 02:37:13 ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has joined #lisp 02:37:38 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:22 well, right now most libs are learn it again, so i probably wont have requests for a while... but when i do i know who to look for :P 02:38:32 and thanks! 02:40:25 drewc: oops, that's scary again. I guess I don't joke around then... but still, it's good to see you here again, even if I wasn't aware of what you've been through! 02:41:17 (I must have been too preoccupied with my struggle to get through the fence to kazakhstan... I haven't been around lisp much lately) 02:41:51 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@56.sub-75-204-224.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:42:02 -!- Tasser [~freak@subtle/contributor/Tass] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:42:15 please feel free to joke around! I am aware of my issues and i'm glad to be here, and glad to be a joke :) 02:42:18 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@56.sub-75-204-224.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 02:42:44 ohh, kazakhstan! 02:44:03 *drewc* looks on wikipedia to find out more about it 02:46:38 <_death> this is not a channel for joking.. it's a channel about Coma Lisp 02:47:15 -!- topo [~topo@f053033191.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:51:01 *drewc* grins but refrains from joking :) 02:51:08 hehh... :) I guess it's a perfect call for me to go to bed at almost 5am here... :) 02:51:20 whoa welcome back drewc 02:52:00 goodnight attila_lendvai, see you tomorrow 02:52:20 drewc: I had no idea! Are you back to boat life, or does that have to wait? 02:52:26 Tasser [~freak@subtle/contributor/Tass] has joined #lisp 02:52:36 good night eveyone, and speedy recovery drewc! 02:52:47 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:52:52 felideon: hey hey, i am glad to be welcomed back :) 02:53:56 topo [~topo@f053033191.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 02:54:23 sellout-: i am living in the shed around my big boat, and soon i should be able to work on it. my little boat is still on the dock, but i'll probably sell it soon 02:54:26 was wondering where the hell you were :P glad you're ok. 02:54:56 hey drewc. Glad you're back. I was wondering where you were. 02:55:49 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@YYMKL.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:55:58 evenin' drewc 02:56:53 felideon: my right arm is a little bit odd, and i need a cane to get around on my right leg, but it shouldn't be that long until it is "ok" and i don't need equipment 02:57:43 austinh and pkhuong: evenin' to you both! 02:58:04 drewc: o7 02:58:05 -!- Cam [~i@trivialand/staff/Cam] has quit [Quit: goodnight] 02:59:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:59:33 sykopomp: salut :) 03:01:58 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@56.sub-75-204-224.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:02:16 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-206-63.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:02:26 drewc: how long were you under? :( if that's not too personal 03:03:20 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-206-63.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:10 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.20.253.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:04:28 felideon: I was in a coma for two weeks, in that hospital for another two weeks, and in another hospital for a month before they send me home though i still go there for 4 days until this week when it will be over-ish 03:04:55 june 16 is when i fell into the deep sleep 03:05:39 manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDD604.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:45 oh wow 03:05:56 *drewc* will note that it's one day after Vancouver, where i live, lost the stanley cup to boston 03:06:36 dextroid [~dextroid@c-67-188-198-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:54 hey, can someone help me with Weblocks? 03:07:00 i'm having problems with the database 03:07:11 drewc: :) 03:07:55 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 03:08:27 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 03:08:51 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-152-64.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:09:04 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-152-64.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:37 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-114.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:09:45 -!- wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-114.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:09:50 felideon: i don't remember the playoffs at all, but i _did_ watch the games and will remember it eventually :) 03:11:14 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-152-64.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:11:32 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-152-64.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:35 anyone? sorry, this is a bit important 03:12:47 dextroid: I think there might be a weblocks mailing list 03:12:47 -!- dextroid [~dextroid@c-67-188-198-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:12:55 dextroid [~dextroid@c-67-188-198-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:13 dextroid: I think there might be a weblocks mailing list 03:14:09 yeah, it's just a bit urgent and mailing list hasn't had activity in weeks 03:14:18 ah 03:14:57 dextroid: But you're still going to post to the mailing list, right? 03:15:04 well your best bet is to ask a specific question. I'm not sure what database access they use, but.. 03:15:29 actually i've found an old google cache article I think may help 03:15:30 one sec 03:16:09 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@86.sub-69-96-7.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 03:23:25 -!- Tasser [~freak@subtle/contributor/Tass] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:28:28 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-179.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:30:24 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:30:27 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:30:50 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:22 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-7-76.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:35:29 hello friends, does anybody here know how to install CommonQt on Ubunu 10.04? I keep getting the following: http://pastebin.com/EetRsnLZ 03:35:34 Ubuntu* 03:36:00 SucklinPig [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-179.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:36:40 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-179.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:38:18 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 03:38:31 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-7-76.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:39:08 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has left #lisp 03:39:35 felideon: i'm using the cl-sql backend 03:39:37 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:39:42 but I get "The function CLSQL-SYS::RELEASE-TO-CONN-POOL is undefined." 03:41:55 seems like it's CLSQL-SYS:DATABASE-RELEASE-TO-CONN-POOL that you're looking for? 03:42:59 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:44:00 daniel___ [~daniel@p5B326CED.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:23 aha, thanks 03:45:44 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082BF9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:48:14 marsell [~marsell@120.20.55.18] has joined #lisp 03:51:32 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ilxyeqdfdoiaymla] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:52:05 -!- SucklinPig [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-179.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:52:35 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@86.sub-69-96-7.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:54:50 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.20.55.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:55:55 felideon: ... hmm, I'm missing clsql-sys 03:56:04 is it in quicklisp? 03:57:24 dextroid: Why not check quicklisp? (ql:system-apropos "clsql") 03:59:50 hmm 04:00:16 aha 04:00:25 it's in the individual database drivers 04:01:37 -!- zmv_ [~daniel@c953332e.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:04:19 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 04:04:58 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:05:19 -!- retroj [~retroj@unaffiliated/retroj] has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:05:40 retroj [~retroj@unaffiliated/retroj] has joined #lisp 04:05:49 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 04:07:01 *drewc* finishes lisping for today 04:07:35 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 04:08:10 It turns out that a few months not lisping actually made me a better lisper... i like that. 04:09:32 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:09:40 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has joined #lisp 04:10:23 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-211-210.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:15:40 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:16:18 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:16:36 drewc: I should try Pascal again and see how good I've gotten, then. 04:17:21 -!- tsanhwa [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:17:27 sellout-: i tried python just the other day... not that good at all. 04:17:35 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-153-103.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 04:18:18 drewc: the language, or your skills with it? ;D 04:20:51 sykopomp: both i say 04:22:00 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:24:36 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 04:24:48 arrrgh it's still not working << 04:26:00 http://pastebin.com/YYufmjNc 04:26:10 -!- ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:28:40 elliottcable [~me@ell.io] has joined #lisp 04:28:48 can someone help me parse the backtrace? 04:30:55 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:33:38 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 04:34:55 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76.10.183.155] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:39:41 -!- retroj [~retroj@unaffiliated/retroj] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:40:47 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:48:00 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:50:54 -!- fihi09` [~user@pool-71-190-69-39.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:52:06 spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.46.182] has joined #lisp 04:56:25 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@117.192.46.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:57:54 ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:03 -!- __mal [~mal@www.wimmekes.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:02:47 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:02:47 -!- dextroid [~dextroid@c-67-188-198-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:03:04 dextroid [~dextroid@c-67-188-198-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:34 HG` [~HG@p579F77DF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:27 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:10:57 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F77DF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:11:29 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cqqfegecgmhzunkg] has joined #lisp 05:11:51 -!- ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has quit [Quit: away] 05:14:38 rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:52 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 05:20:25 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cqqfegecgmhzunkg] has left #lisp 05:28:54 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-rqdhyxyujurxqdpb] has joined #lisp 05:28:57 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-rqdhyxyujurxqdpb] has quit [Changing host] 05:28:57 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:30:58 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 05:31:23 Tasser [~freak@subtle/contributor/Tass] has joined #lisp 05:36:04 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:36:50 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:37:09 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 05:37:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:38:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 05:38:08 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:39:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 05:39:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 05:40:09 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 05:40:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 05:41:09 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 05:41:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:42:09 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 05:42:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:42:51 spotted in production code: http://codepad.org/ZwRiqkr9 05:43:09 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 05:43:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:43:35 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.136.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:44:09 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 05:44:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:44:59 Qworkescence: Is it at least true? 05:45:09 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 05:45:10 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 05:45:31 Bike, I guess, sort of. 05:45:44 Qworkescence: haha, nice box! 05:46:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 05:46:09 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 05:46:23 -!- blumbri [~blumbri@c-67-181-176-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:46:25 mal [~mal@www.wimmekes.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 05:47:08 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:48:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 05:48:08 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:49:09 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 05:49:55 gensym [~user@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 05:50:52 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.75.65] has joined #lisp 05:52:16 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-183-220-55.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:38 -!- ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:53:49 -!- jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:55:52 jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has joined #lisp 05:56:00 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.169.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:59:09 blumbri [~blumbri@c-67-181-176-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:37 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:09:44 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-216-37.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:12:18 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 06:16:26 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-224.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:16:32 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-245-44.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:16:35 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:17:01 good morning 06:20:26 hi 06:27:18 -!- kpal [eart0186@raven.linux.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:29:57 jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-61.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:36:31 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:39:03 kpal [eart0186@raven.linux.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 06:40:23 nostoi [~nostoi@27.Red-79-157-251.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:27 ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 06:43:28 -!- Amyn [~abennama@cac94-2-87-91-21-215.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:47:43 -!- _danb_ [~user@203.38.189.126] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:47:49 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.226.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:51:47 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.53.247] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 06:54:33 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:57:44 ihyoyoung [raster@enlightenment2.osuosl.org] has joined #lisp 07:01:13 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-drzpvyweefrcswrr] has joined #lisp 07:06:14 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-61.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:07:25 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:11:21 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.237.107] has joined #lisp 07:22:03 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.237.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:22:06 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 07:23:14 marsell [~marsell@120.20.163.114] has joined #lisp 07:23:39 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-39-118.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:23:39 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-39-118.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:23:39 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:24:17 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:25:48 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 07:27:23 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:27:23 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:30:57 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-48-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:35 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:32:01 Someone please inspire me with an interesting piece of code. :) 07:32:10 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 07:33:09 hello Qworkescence 07:33:19 Hello dto 07:33:40 you mean you want to see source? or video 07:33:47 Source 07:33:53 http://vimeo.com/29387437 07:33:54 oh 07:33:56 one moment. 07:34:30 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@27.Red-79-157-251.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:35:06 I'm tired of seeing this ugly stuff I'm writing. :S http://codepad.org/m2ig1Efg 07:35:15 https://raw.github.com/dto/blocky/master/quadtree.lisp 07:35:25 this code is used in that video. 07:35:38 -!- dextroid [~dextroid@c-67-188-198-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:36:14 it's odd how a pascal-esque assignment operator happens to appear as a consequence of using keywords as arguments to loop 07:36:18 dto, I think you can do: (reduce #'min objects :key #'left) instead of that (reduce (mapcar ..)) 07:36:37 It might be a tad more efficient. :) 07:36:50 i don't even use that function at the moment. 07:36:53 but yes :) 07:37:39 dto, I was contemplating implementing full R-trees 07:37:59 dto: Just imagine if the package-symbol separator were ! instead. 07:38:13 But alas we have SPATIAL-TREES. 07:38:23 what are R-trees 07:38:31 Zhivago: yeah that would suck 07:38:53 check the video link for application of quadtrees.lisp 07:39:06 dto, Something similar to quad-trees except they're a bit more general 07:39:53 an R-tree partitions a set of points into several bounding boxes. Each bounding box is a subset of a larger one 07:40:02 So we can locate a point via a sequence of bounding boxes. 07:40:24 ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:42 bozhidar [~user@84.40.101.143] has joined #lisp 07:40:55 dto, Implement Gosper's HASHLIFE function using your quadtree implementation. :) (I assume it's yours) 07:41:16 Qworkescence: cool :) 07:41:18 yep. 07:41:50 https://raw.github.com/dto/blocky/master/blocks.lisp 07:43:47 dto, Oh, I've seen some of the hubbub about blocky. Unfortunately I've not been able to check it out. 07:44:44 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has left #lisp 07:45:05 i wouldn't call 5 or 6 reddit comments a hubbub :) 07:45:22 If I recall correctly, I've seen it more than just on Reddit. 07:45:34 I've seen it mentioned at least three (3) times. 07:45:44 BUT i do have several people whove been trying it out and who want to participate in the betas 07:46:14 i'm trying to improve my commit messages now that a bunch of people started following the github repo 07:46:15 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:46:22 dto, is DEFINE-METHOD a single-dispatch thing? 07:46:32 yep. 07:47:05 thats defined in https://raw.github.com/dto/blocky/master/prototypes.lisp 07:49:40 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:49:46 akovalen` [~user@95.72.102.154] has joined #lisp 07:50:11 -!- gko [~gko@27.53.82.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:51:44 -!- akovalenko [~user@95.73.220.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:51:45 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.232.175] has joined #lisp 07:51:51 hey guys 07:52:54 gko [~gko@110-26-160-48.adsl.fetnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:58 *macobo* slaps morphism 07:53:39 how to turn socket data like "#\H" into standard io syntax ? 07:54:03 it's kind char array sent from socket 07:55:50 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:57:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-224.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:05:46 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-152-64.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 08:12:37 -!- X-Scale [email@89.180.208.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:17:22 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-skosazrmonmxmdpi] has joined #lisp 08:17:27 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xjyxipkyeyvrbmbs] has joined #lisp 08:19:09 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:19:23 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 08:27:18 Can I ( cons (format t "~a" char) my-string) ? 08:27:32 Amyn [~abennama@62.23.212.21] has joined #lisp 08:27:54 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@46.66.105.16.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:28:44 morphism: (concatenate 'string ...) 08:29:00 or do you want to build a list? 08:29:08 yes 08:29:30 because those chars are alike to (a b c) 08:29:40 but when transferring via socket 08:29:47 it became "#\\a" 08:30:30 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.17] has joined #lisp 08:31:05 -!- manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDD604.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: manuel_] 08:31:29 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:31:59 morphism: depends on what exactly you are putting into the socket 08:36:12 I send char array via socket 08:36:23 send(proxyBotSocket,(char*)ack.c_str(), ack.size(), 0); 08:36:31 it's from a C++ dll 08:36:37 -!- macobo [~Karl@233.24.190.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:37:12 ok, so how do you read from the socket? 08:37:27 apparently you're reading character by character 08:37:58 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 08:37:58 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:38:03 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:08 oops. 08:38:18 hey there are 333 people in here 08:38:39 dto: because of you! 08:38:56 yes 08:38:59 I AM THE ONE 08:38:59 morphism: so what exactly is the problem? 08:39:07 *dto* rains on arrakis 08:39:12 dto: halfway to 666 08:39:35 1/3 of the way to 999 08:39:43 when i quit my old job i used emacs calendar's count-region thing to determine that i had worked there for 666 calendar days 08:40:19 gota love lisp. 08:40:31 jdz, the problem is when the data arrived 08:40:43 I need it to fit the standard-io-syntax 08:41:02 morphism: #\H is how characters are printed readably in standard io syntax 08:41:49 clhs with-standard-io-syntax 08:42:31 morphism: www.l1sp.org/cl/with-standard-io-syntax 08:43:26 X-Scale [email@89.180.133.11] has joined #lisp 08:43:46 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest86810 08:44:13 -!- Guest86810 [email@89.180.133.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:44:46 jdz, oh. thanks 08:45:10 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@46.66.105.16.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 08:46:55 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 08:46:55 X-Scale` [email@89.180.133.11] has joined #lisp 08:47:11 morphism: (list (princ-to-string #\H) (prin1-to-string #\H)) 08:47:12 newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has joined #lisp 08:48:44 -!- X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 08:49:15 -!- X-Scale [email@89.180.133.11] has quit [Client Quit] 08:51:51 X-Scale [email@89.180.133.11] has joined #lisp 08:52:52 but 08:53:01 I want to remove "#\" 08:53:14 no, you do not want to remove it 08:53:17 you want to not print it 08:53:21 in the first place 08:53:49 :-? 08:53:54 why ? 08:53:55 what you have to understand is the reason why you see the #\ 08:54:04 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 08:54:05 it's a character ? 08:54:15 no, it is the printed representation of a character 08:54:24 one of the representations actually 08:54:35 the readable representation 08:54:43 and that's the one you do not want in this case 08:55:27 so, bind *PRINT-READABLY* to NIL around the code that outputs your characters and see the magic 08:57:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:57:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 08:57:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:59:29 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 09:03:50 tfb [~tfb@80.238.0.145] has joined #lisp 09:05:14 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@46.66.105.16.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:05:42 arbscht [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 09:07:20 hi arbscht 09:07:40 hi dto 09:08:01 whats been up? 09:09:11 quite a lot. my personal computer is recovered and reasonably stable now. still working on rebuilding the web server 09:10:23 hey cool. 09:10:40 _danb_ [~user@124-149-162-79.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:11:30 MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-10-148.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:45 Well, while playing abut with abcl I've made the horrifying discovery that java doesn't let you touch environment variables. 09:12:48 Nice one, sun. 09:13:08 touch? 09:16:41 they're read-only in java 09:18:03 although in practice it's not *that* useful to change them. when you create a process you can pass it a new env (if you're using ProcessBuilder) 09:20:21 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp2618.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 09:29:15 http://developer.ubuntu.com/publish/ <---- ubuntu is going appstore-ish 09:29:44 how do I turn a string into a list ? 09:31:39 morphism: coerce 09:31:51 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-120-3.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:32:08 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-120-3.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 09:33:09 morphism: I found the CL Cookbook being practical for questions like this 09:33:37 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:36:51 not exactly what I want 09:37:11 I want to turn a String like "(A)" into ( A ) 09:37:28 or " ( + 1 1 ) " into ( + 1 1 ) 09:37:39 I checked the document about coerce 09:38:04 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38:42 morphism: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/strings.html 09:39:01 morphism: read-from-string 09:39:03 there you get a list of charackters 09:39:10 morphism: but be careful with what you want 09:39:32 -!- martisj [~martin@14-201-64-38.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: martisj] 09:39:46 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.53.247] has joined #lisp 09:40:32 that's right 09:40:32 :P 09:40:35 now it's done 09:41:03 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:42:00 morphism: make sure you read about *read-eval* and *read-suppress* 09:46:17 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:50:06 altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:00 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:55:56 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:05:54 kaidw [~kaidw@199.68.199.101] has joined #lisp 10:06:11 -!- bozhidar [~user@84.40.101.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:06:22 -!- deke [~deke@fl-71-54-184-132.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08:08 hey about 10:08:18 the usocket:listen 10:09:16 why it cause me error each time I eval a function from a file ? 10:09:27 but if I define the function inside the interactive REPL 10:09:35 it won't complain anything 10:14:16 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:21:33 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.53.247] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 10:24:15 morphism: what error? 10:24:24 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:24:29 *Xach* guesses: the binding of cl:*package* 10:27:42 gcentaur1 [~gcentauri@76-85-193-191.cable.inebraska.com] has joined #lisp 10:30:16 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.53.247] has joined #lisp 10:31:09 -!- gcentauri [~gcentauri@76-85-193-191.cable.inebraska.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:40:33 -!- topeak [~topeak@123.114.125.79] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:49:49 Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-198-113.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:52:57 Xach: it's There is no applicable method for the generic function: 10:52:58 # 10:52:58 when called with arguments: 10:52:58 (NIL) 10:52:58 [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR] 10:53:16 bozhidar [~user@84.40.101.143] has joined #lisp 10:56:52 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:57:20 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:58:28 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:58:45 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:01:54 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xjyxipkyeyvrbmbs] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:02:34 macobo [~Karl@193.40.12.10] has joined #lisp 11:04:05 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:06:52 -!- kaidw [~kaidw@199.68.199.101] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 11:07:00 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-drzpvyweefrcswrr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:07:35 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.20.163.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:07:57 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-npxnxwcaoxltekfm] has joined #lisp 11:08:07 morphism: what does the file look like? 11:09:51 oh, it's done 11:10:07 it related to homony use of same functions name 11:10:24 so it always ask me to use the definition from which package =.= 11:10:42 bozhidar` [~user@84.40.101.143] has joined #lisp 11:10:58 -!- bozhidar [~user@84.40.101.143] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:11:43 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.232.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:12:31 ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has joined #lisp 11:14:39 EyesIsServer [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has joined #lisp 11:20:39 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:23:07 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 11:23:59 -!- macobo [~Karl@193.40.12.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:24:23 macobo [~Karl@sein.ut.ee] has joined #lisp 11:29:18 Xach: when will be the next quicklisp release? 11:31:08 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:33:06 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-npxnxwcaoxltekfm] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:33:57 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-162-79.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:34:10 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:36:07 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:36:49 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 11:37:19 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-qdrlnbymtfjtqwnx] has joined #lisp 11:44:47 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-48-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:49:16 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 11:51:00 aaabcd [~aaabcd@mailserver.equitystory.de] has joined #lisp 11:51:32 How do I get the documentation associated with a generic function? Should (DOCUMENTATION 'gf 'function) return what was set in the DEFGENERIC form? 11:51:59 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.169.146] has joined #lisp 11:52:45 -!- aaabcd [~aaabcd@mailserver.equitystory.de] has quit [Client Quit] 11:55:50 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:56:45 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.169.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:57:37 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-224.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:58:15 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:00:58 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:01:48 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:03:21 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:03:28 ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has joined #lisp 12:04:56 gensym: I'm not sure. Maybe this weekend. 12:05:17 easyE: I think so. A gf is a function. 12:05:30 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-183-220-55.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:05:54 gensym: there are some lingering project issues I really want to resolve. 12:06:51 Xach: Yes, it works that way. For some reason lots of SBCL SB-MOP's don't seem to have documentation which was confusing me. I thought *everything* in SBCL has a docstring at this point (at least for exported symbols). 12:08:16 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-udfpjkijqciewltc] has joined #lisp 12:08:17 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.106.56] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:08:22 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-183-220-55.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:25 are you suppose to set the docstring during defgeneric declaration? 12:08:46 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.106.56] has joined #lisp 12:08:51 kennyd: when else would be a good time? 12:09:15 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 12:09:17 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.106.56] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:09:26 easyE: you can get it's definition iif there's no doc-string 12:09:32 what about docstrings of individual methods of that generic function, they are just ignored I suppose 12:09:45 gaidal [~gaidal@61.144.106.56] has joined #lisp 12:09:56 kennyd: why? they are documentation for the specific methods. 12:10:17 how can 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[~Karl@193.40.12.10] has joined #lisp 14:26:32 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:26:43 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 14:27:22 is this possible?: (loop for (values a b) = (floor x y) ...) 14:27:57 acelent: it'd be cool, wouldn't it. But it doesn't work. I think the ITERATE package does that, though 14:29:07 dlowe: thanks. just tried it and loop tries to destructure the result of (floor x y) into the variables values, a and b 14:29:21 i don't think even iterate does it, but you can nest iterate clauses, so you can m-v-b 14:29:32 acelent: right. you can do (loop for (a b) = (multiple-value-list (floor x y)) 14:29:40 dlowe: i was hoping there was some other construct for multiple value binding 14:29:57 dlowe: hm, might try that, this isn't really performance sensitive 14:30:21 dlowe: thanks 14:30:42 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@141.212.58.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:31:20 -!- macobo [~Karl@193.40.12.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:33:41 macobo [~Karl@193.40.12.10] has joined #lisp 14:34:38 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34:54 -!- cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: Yow! Legally-imposed CULTURE-reduction is CABBAGE-BRAINED!] 14:36:14 gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:40 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:37:50 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:24 -!- __main__ [~main@76-220-16-41.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:38:45 -!- akovalen` is now known as akovalenko 14:38:48 acelent: Just put it inside a MULTIPLE-VALUE-LIST 14:39:13 loke: great idea! 14:39:16 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 14:39:27 __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:43 -!- macobo [~Karl@193.40.12.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:39:51 -!- __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:40:12 Oh, he already suggested that :-) 14:40:30 __main__ [~main@76-220-16-41.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:20 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:44 macobo [~Karl@sein.ut.ee] has joined #lisp 14:45:47 altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:38 -!- StrmSrfr [~user@208.72.159.205] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:46:46 StrmSrfr [~user@208.72.159.205] has joined #lisp 14:48:15 -!- macobo [~Karl@sein.ut.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:51:12 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-3c90e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 14:55:56 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-216-37.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:56:46 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 15:00:15 billstclair [~billstcla@p-209-105-143-167.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:21 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-209-105-143-167.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:00:21 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 15:02:25 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9518c5d.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:03:31 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:03:57 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:06:22 topeak [~topeak@118.186.129.143] has joined #lisp 15:08:23 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:08:49 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 15:09:06 coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:06 -!- coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:09:06 coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 15:09:20 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.226.67] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 15:10:20 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:14:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-224.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:14:33 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.157.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:16:18 pnq [~nick@AC8450E7.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:16:25 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-152-77.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:19:22 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 15:21:22 how can I create keywords from strings or symbols? 15:21:37 gensym: intern 15:21:45 -!- tfb [~tfb@80.238.0.145] has quit [Quit: gone] 15:22:03 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22:13 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:22:25 gensym: also the symbol-munger package may or maynot help 15:22:34 gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-mfxnhwzsjsifzshz] has joined #lisp 15:22:42 bobbysmith007: thanks! 15:23:10 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 15:23:53 you'll have to specify :keyword as the package, though. 15:23:56 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:24:34 yes - at first i was wondering about the answer, but clhs helped me :) 15:24:54 tfb [~tfb@80.238.0.145] has joined #lisp 15:26:06 HG` [~HG@p579F77DF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:19 btw, i resolved the loop for multiple values as (let (a b) (loop do (multiple-value-setq (a b) (floor x y)) ...)). not as easy, especially if i wanted a `then' form 15:29:35 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 15:31:59 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:33:16 jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has joined #lisp 15:34:48 -!- fortitudeZDY [~fortitude@123.103.66.133] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:35:32 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:36:39 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:38:29 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 15:39:59 jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:40:44 martisj [~martin@14-201-64-38.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:43:09 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@75-138-73-64.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:43:40 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:44:15 hun` [~user@178-27-102-152-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:47:03 ISF_ [~ivan@143.106.196.83] has joined #lisp 15:48:31 -!- hun` [~user@178-27-102-152-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:50:07 oudeis [~oudeis@2.54.254.4] has joined #lisp 15:50:40 EyesIsServer [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has joined #lisp 15:51:12 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@2.54.254.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:53:29 LordH [5ac58a4e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.197.138.78] has joined #lisp 15:53:35 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 15:54:02 hey guys, is practical common lisp a good book for someone who is new to programming? 15:54:49 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:55:03 I think it assumes some prior knowledge, but you could always read a couple of chapters and see how you get on 15:56:05 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:56:11 i know the basics like variables and functions and data types, but never made anything. 15:56:43 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:58:18 can i get the book in pdf form? i dont normally like hyml books 15:58:23 html* 15:58:38 LordH: apress.com sells the pdf. 15:59:24 Xach: oh ok 16:00:11 wouldnt land of lisp be a better fit for a beginer in programming? thats what i have hears anyway 16:00:22 heard 16:00:32 Land of Lisp is very neat imo 16:01:56 i emailed the author of land of lisp and he said he never really intended it as a beginners book. though it might be possible 16:02:49 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:02:50 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:03:10 -!- bozhidar` [~user@84.40.101.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:05:45 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:06:14 Xach: i notice the site of PCL quotes you :p 16:07:13 ace4016 [~ace4016@99-120-69-226.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:33 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:08:34 LordH: Have a look at Touretzky's Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation. 16:08:57 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 16:09:14 antoszka: that one is good, if you have absolutely zero understanding of programming beforehand. I do feel it's a bit too gentle though ;-) 16:10:50 altsrid [~altsrid@remote.activestate.com] has joined #lisp 16:11:09 psyllo [~benjamin@69.59.136.174] has joined #lisp 16:11:49 qubz [~matt@60-240-172-96.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 16:12:46 -!- LordH [5ac58a4e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.197.138.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:12:48 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:13:35 loke: I kind of disagree. I knew C#, VB.NET, and some JavaScript and thought Gentle was a nice intro to Lisp 16:13:39 lordH [5ac58a4e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.197.138.78] has joined #lisp 16:13:52 hey guys, what was my last message? 16:14:09 "that one is good ..." 16:14:20 er, sorry 16:14:36 lordH: "i notice the site ..." 16:14:58 my mental nick hashing is apparently down to two characters 16:15:07 loke: hehe. I think it tunes the mind well for some lisp-specific thinking. Otherwise PCL and Barki's LoL seem very good, as well as Norvig's PAIP. 16:15:46 my client must have crashed so i missed any replies i got 16:15:59 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 16:16:33 yeah like a said earlier i asked the author of land of lisp and he said his book wasn't really intended for beginners, but it may be possible 16:16:45 lordH: 16:16:55 -!- Amyn [~abennama@62.23.212.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:17:04 and there aren't that many good introduction to programming books in general, you might as well just jump in head first 16:18:14 pkhuong: seems that link is broken? 16:19:12 not broken here. 16:19:34 -!- qubz [~matt@60-240-172-96.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: qubz] 16:21:08 ah thanks pkhuong 16:21:31 yeah i heard the first few chapters of Land of Lisp and didnt get the impression it was for new programmers 16:21:50 s/heard/read 16:24:45 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 16:25:03 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-qdrlnbymtfjtqwnx] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:25:16 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:25:35 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 16:26:30 yeah i will check out the Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation if PCL doen't work out 16:28:50 danlei [~user@unaffiliated/danlei] has joined #lisp 16:31:22 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has joined #lisp 16:33:46 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 16:37:06 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 16:37:54 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.182.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:38:24 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39:11 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 16:39:25 -!- lordH [5ac58a4e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.197.138.78] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:40:39 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Client Quit] 16:40:52 lordH [~sogeking9@5ac58a4e.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:05 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 16:42:08 so you call functions like this 'hello-world' and not like in most 'hello-world()' 16:42:38 lordH: where did you get this impression from? 16:43:25 holycopralite [~ray.still@12.104.144.2] has joined #lisp 16:43:34 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 16:43:42 felideon, thats how he does it in PCL, or is that only if your using the listener? 16:44:15 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:45:16 ok I see the part you're talking about. "hello, world" is just a string 16:45:35 lordH: I learned to program with Gentle Intro. It's a fine book. :) 16:45:38 when the reader evals a string, it returns it. 16:45:58 lordH: If you had a function named hello-world, you would call it like: (hello-world) 16:46:10 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@75-138-73-64.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:03 felideon, sorry i mean this CL-USER> (hello-world), thats the call right? in other languages i've seen the call is always followed by '()' so it would look like (hello-world()) 16:48:47 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:49:01 sykopomp, yeah i might read some of that, does it have any practical work? or is it all theory? 16:49:41 the "CL-USER>" is just part of the interface. But yes, in Lisp, calls usually look like (function-name ...args...) instead of function_name(...args...). 16:49:54 it's fundamental things you need to know 16:50:16 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 16:50:29 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:46 lordH: It has the basic concepts that you need in order to be able to do anything real. Don't think of it as theoretical blather. 16:51:44 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.139.236.1] has joined #lisp 16:51:50 nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.171.218] has joined #lisp 16:52:01 ok thanks 16:52:19 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@67.194.217.69] has joined #lisp 16:56:24 oudeis [~oudeis@192.117.22.140.static.012.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:57:54 -!- loderunner [~loderunne@adsl-074-229-197-048.sip.mco.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:30 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:01:31 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:37 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@67.194.217.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:02:38 ZabaQ1 [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:20 -!- tfb [~tfb@80.238.0.145] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 17:03:39 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@67.194.217.69] has joined #lisp 17:03:46 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:04:29 dans [~daniel@92.80.89.31] has joined #lisp 17:05:14 -!- danlei [~user@unaffiliated/danlei] has quit [Quit: Ein guter Abgang ziert die Übung.] 17:08:43 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:58 housel [~user@ip70-187-191-250.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:10 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 17:10:52 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@192.117.22.140.static.012.net.il] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:11:49 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@67.194.217.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:12:24 -!- topeak [~topeak@118.186.129.143] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:12:30 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:15:05 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@67.194.217.69] has joined #lisp 17:16:49 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-126-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:17 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:19:45 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:20:05 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 17:20:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 17:20:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:21:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 17:21:39 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:21:43 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-198-113.uio.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:22:37 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:22:51 replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:24:25 oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:40 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has joined #lisp 17:24:46 superflit [~superflit@71-208-222-174.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:31 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:27:59 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@67.194.217.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:28:03 hun` [~user@178-27-102-152-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:28:26 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:32:34 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@67.194.217.69] has joined #lisp 17:34:32 -!- H4ns [41173d62@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.23.61.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:40:11 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-mfxnhwzsjsifzshz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:42:45 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:48:13 H4ns [41173d62@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.23.61.98] has joined #lisp 17:49:55 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc1-midd16-2-0-cust160.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:50:09 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-skosazrmonmxmdpi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:50:34 lordH: one of the beauties of lisp is the universality of sexps. if a list is unevaluated it is simply a list. if it is evaluated, then the first element in the list is (typically) the function, and the remaining elements are the arguments. there are some special forms which break the evaluation rules, and macros may behave as special forms. 17:52:11 tali713, oh i see thanks. what is the macro feature in lisp? is it saving code and reusing it? 17:53:18 lordH: it's a function run during compilation that takes code as input and outputs code 17:53:46 Hello Dragons! 17:53:58 mon_key: hello, tasty knight 17:54:02 lordH: normally in lisp if an argument is itself an sexp than it is evaluated (in a normal form) and it's return value is used by the function. in a macro, you turn off evaluation of arguments (roughly) and return a list which will replace the macro call. it's powerful and is probably best saved for later. 17:54:33 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 17:54:36 Cloud_ [~cbolano@189.139.236.1] has joined #lisp 17:54:42 that list, of course will be in an evaluation context and will be treated as such. 17:54:55 -!- holycopralite [~ray.still@12.104.144.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:54:58 tali713: that's a lot of big words there 17:55:01 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:07 ah right 17:55:29 actually macros take non-code as input too. meaning you can extend the language with new syntax 17:55:31 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8450E7.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:56:03 dlowe: perhaps, but the fact that a macro takes in arguments and returns a list to be evaluated later is important. because lisp has a lot of functions for manipulating lists, and it's code is itself lists. and i don't think this can be over emphasized. 17:57:14 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.139.236.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:57:17 -!- ZabaQ1 [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:57:39 gkeith_glaptop_ [~gkeith@pool-108-20-97-221.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:52 Are there any ill consequences to _not_ calling CL:GET-OUTPUT-STREAM-STRING on a local variable bound to return value of CL:MAKE-STRING-OUTPUT-STREAM. e.g. I have a class with a slot that has an :initform (make-string-output-stream) and just want to make sure that when a class instance is gc'd the output-stream is too. 17:58:28 lordH: but really, don't worry about it, macros aren't that difficult once you are already comfortable with the rest. 17:58:45 mon_key: objects are generally garbage collected if they are unreachable. 17:59:02 yeah i think for now i will go through gentle introduction. 17:59:20 Xach: Thanks. paranoia getting the best of me :) 18:01:49 holycopralite [~ray.still@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 18:02:12 -!- Cloud_ [~cbolano@189.139.236.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:02:57 Xach: there is a little voice in the back of my head which likes to whisper, "Hey, you just opened a stram, whatabout that PCL footnote...?" e.g. the one on page 167 of chapter 14 18:03:56 er stream -- apparently my little voices can't spell either :( 18:05:33 acelent` [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 18:06:40 -!- acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:06:51 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp2618.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:07:46 rosario [~user@fsf/member/rosario] has joined #lisp 18:11:29 I sent my hardcopy of PCL to a Hungarian CL hacker. 18:11:55 Xach: Attila? 18:12:17 Amyn [~abennama@cac94-2-87-91-21-215.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 18:12:38 It's a secret. 18:12:42 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 18:14:39 Hi guys, I just recently finished PCL by Peter Seibel, borrowed "On Lisp" by Paul Graham from my university's library now and found a book called "Object-Oriented Programming in COMMON LISP" by S. E. Keene as well. Are there any other book you'd recommend? 18:14:58 *books 18:14:59 Paradigms of AI Programming is quite nice 18:15:25 -!- benny [~benny@i577A21A6.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:16:13 Art of the Metaobject Protocol is gravy 18:16:16 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp2618.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:17:03 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:17:22 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 18:19:48 not CL, but the fundamentals are nice in The Little Schemer 18:20:42 even if you intend to program in CL I recommend it heartily 18:21:11 Too bad it's not possible to borrow either of them since reading 1300 pages at the library is nearly impossible... 18:21:12 Let Over Lambda is a cake made entirely of frosting 18:21:20 tsuru` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:19 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 18:23:42 urandom__ [~user@p548A1EAA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:45 dlowe: I believe those are called cupcakes nowadays ;) 18:28:20 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:23 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@67.194.217.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:29:49 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp2618.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:30:37 Common Lisp is full of delicious funions 18:31:01 yum yum daddy like 18:32:07 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 18:32:39 -!- billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:33:09 pnq [~nick@AC8160C6.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:33 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-15-185.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:33:45 Cam [~i@trivialand/staff/Cam] has joined #lisp 18:34:11 look, everybody 18:34:22 wait wrong chat 18:34:24 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-15-185.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 18:34:47 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp2618.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:35:38 jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:36:10 benny [~benny@i577A2DB5.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:36:28 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@99-120-69-226.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 18:36:34 -!- holycopralite [~ray.still@12.104.148.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:36:41 holycopralite [~ray.still@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 18:36:53 Is tail-recursion desirable as Graham says? 18:37:44 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:37:51 desirable in what context? 18:38:46 rlmn [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:56 In that a tail-recursive function is more elegant and can be optimized away be the compiler anyway? 18:39:01 *Xach* shudders 18:39:17 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #lisp 18:39:25 *by 18:39:36 rosario: it depends. 18:39:49 rosario: It might be sometimes and might not be some other times 18:40:14 rosario: although, if there's a natural way to express the operation tail-recursively, it's often even more natural to express it as a loop. 18:45:29 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47:39 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 18:48:26 tali713` [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:13 On Lisp has this bit: This is what fast Common Lisp code looks like. At rst it may not seem natural to write functions this way. Its often a good idea to begin by writing a function in whatever way seems most natural, and then, if necessary, transforming it into a tail-recursive equivalent. 18:49:41 -!- tali713` [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:20 *sykopomp* squints. 18:50:26 tali713` [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:30 But PG used clisp, and clisp doesn't even do TCO? 18:50:31 Xach: I read it just this minute. 18:50:34 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 18:50:48 rosario: It struck me when I read it as either severely misguided or severely outdated. 18:51:36 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:51:43 -!- tali713` [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:53:57 So it's better to use loops these days in case it seems even more natural to do so? 18:56:21 sykopomp clisp the common lisp implementation? 18:56:27 yes 18:56:31 it does TCO 18:56:36 rosario: best to use what fits the problem best. 18:56:55 sykopomp you just have to compile the function 18:57:00 rlmn: oh. I didn't know it did. 18:58:49 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:58:50 also a lot of common lisp implementations don't to tail-call elimination on the default optimization setting 18:59:44 which ones? 18:59:51 also, tail call optimized code is hard to debug as you can't trace re-invocations of tail call optimized functions. 19:00:07 H4ns: same is true of loops though 19:00:28 jasom: you can't trace loops, but you'd not expect to be able to do. 19:00:32 are any popular implementations not doing TCO with default settings 19:00:35 I don't see how one can talk of "fast Common Lisp code". It's possible to write code that's gratuitously slow on nearly any implementation, but cross-implementation high-performance code is a mirage. 19:00:49 jasom: with a eliminated tail call, the behavior of trace often is non-intuitive. 19:00:54 kennyd: ABCL never does TCO. 19:00:55 -!- antgreen [~user@12.10.75.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:01:08 pkhuong: in any language, too 19:01:09 I mean, I could write e. g. the faculty function this way but using loop constructs is more obvious than that: http://paste.lisp.org/display/124907 19:01:28 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:12 factorial 19:02:15 dlowe: I'm not so sure. icc, gcc and clang is doable, and I've seen some who can add MSVC. 19:02:31 rosario: what's wrong with factorial recursing into itself (ie fac calling fac)? 19:02:58 pkhuong: you won't be squeezing every last bit of performance, though, unless you focus on one implementation or have a ton of conditional compilation 19:03:34 ehu: It's not tail-recursive then, is it? 19:03:35 dlowe: it'll likely be better than any unportably-optimized CL program ;) 19:04:11 if a c function calls itself.. does that mean the call has push CPU registers? 19:04:13 rosario: you'll probably run out of time/batteries better you run out of stack space. 19:04:20 dmiles: what? 19:04:47 pkhuong: this TCO fretting is based on the fact we are worried about stacking the CPU? 19:05:01 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.157.171.218] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:05:05 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-216-37.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:05:10 pkhuong: JSR/RET 19:05:19 right? 19:05:42 dmiles: I don't understand, sorry. 19:05:43 dmiles: you only need to push any caller save registers that you want to use after the function call, which is why you can do tail calls without blowing the stack 19:05:44 or is it that we are afraid we are reserving memory for local vars ina Lisp/C fuinction? 19:06:47 -!- df [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:06:49 jasom yeah, the reason we usually push is so we have freed up registers for use 19:06:49 pkhuong: I don't understand "running out of time...". What do you mean? 19:07:15 jasom: we pop ussualy for consistancy upon return 19:07:23 jasom: the tail call usually unrolls the local stack frame, including the saved registers. 19:07:43 jasom: i know you nknow i am just mentioning it for others understanding where i am about to go with this 19:07:44 the next callee will save its own registers again 19:07:58 rosario: "run out of time/batteries *before* you run out of stack space", sorry. 19:08:10 where i plan to go is TCO is often overarated and actually not nesiary 19:08:36 -!- rlmn [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (EOF)] 19:08:36 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:08:44 I find it nice to e.g. implement state machines. Also some functions are more readable in tail-recursive form, others in looping form 19:08:44 "a function calling itself" may or may not ever imply a push/pop or ever need TCO 19:09:08 dmiles: yeah whether the function calls itself or another function is irrelevant for whether or not it is a tail call 19:09:10 rosario: multiplying large integers is pretty slow. 19:09:35 df [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 19:09:35 dmiles: well, when traversing lists in a recursive way, it's very practical to have TCO 19:09:55 dmiles: also, TCO works also for functions which don't call themselves recursively *directly*, but in a TC manner in other functions. 19:10:06 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:10:27 ehu: yes true. though this need for TCO is often caused by the JVM or .NET or some VM careing to make frames 19:10:30 TCO recursive calls can be unrolled with some clever compiler trickery, but the same can't be said for more complex cases. 19:10:31 pkhuong: I know but that applies to iterative versions as well, doesn't it? 19:10:41 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@ti0030a380-dhcp2618.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:11:06 ehu: i am hopong that TCO can be done in precompiler pass btw 19:11:39 sure. by rewriting "the world" into one big function. 19:11:43 dmiles: how do you do it in precompiler pass when it's not recursive? 19:11:46 ehu: if everything can be converted to the bestcase do loops in alispy form then ABCL woould be super 19:12:15 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:12:42 the non-self-calling case is pretty tricky. 19:12:53 jasom: many things can be converted to loo form.. even w/o recursion possibl 19:12:54 rosario: my point is that it's very likely a non-issue, because the amount of work to perform grows fairly rapidly. 19:13:18 I believe there's some Scheme variant running on the JVM which unrolls stackframes on tailcalls by using a calling trampoline. 19:13:19 jasom: loop form 19:13:26 that's not fast, just safe. 19:13:28 ehu: bigloo, in slow mode. 19:13:45 pkhuong: thanks. I was looking for that name. 19:13:52 hehe. slow mode. nice name :-) 19:13:57 ehu: i pasted code in #abcl one day showing how that worked 19:14:06 *dmiles* sees if its in history 19:14:10 unrolling stack frames? 19:14:13 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:16 I can imagine how it works. 19:14:18 yes.. not ever using them 19:14:29 -!- wccoder [~wccoder@S01060026f3c6bad7.no.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:14:49 hmm. not using stack frames is pretty impossible: there's only 64k of code in 1 method. 19:14:51 IIUC, the JVM's access control model depends a bit on stack traces, so tail calls are hard to support. On .NET, tail calls are *slower* than regular calls. 19:15:01 basiccally using switch (cur.next()) { case proc1: {} case proc2: {} } etc 19:15:32 proc2: code use continue: to mean goto next 19:15:34 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:15:45 pkhuong: IIRC I ran out of stack with with the non-tail-recursive version once whereas the interative one returned in time. 19:15:46 pkhuong: right. the same would be true for ABCL/JVM languages; except that we need to implement it ourselves. 19:15:54 -with 19:16:00 switch(TODONEXT) { ... } 19:16:15 rosario: you are a patient person (: 19:16:18 any proc can set the variable TODONEXT 19:16:36 ehu: any proc is a static method call 19:16:51 pkhuong: Sorry, didn't mean to offend. 19:16:53 in abcl? 19:16:53 with a exit state to set TODONEXT 19:16:56 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F77DF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 19:17:07 or in general? 19:17:22 (because in ABCL it's not actually true) 19:17:29 ehu: this is how java efrfectiently implemntants these things in general 19:17:31 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:17:39 ha. 19:17:41 ah. 19:17:44 You really want a calling convention specially made for tail calls to implement guaranteed TCO; that's why LLVM has the GHC calling convention. 19:18:13 dmiles: make that work with a funcall in tail-position. 19:18:20 -!- gko [gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:19:11 rme [~rme@50.43.156.82] has joined #lisp 19:19:15 pkhuong: right. that's why bigloo really needed the trampoline. As soon as it hits a TCO count of 5000, it unrolls the stack frames. 19:19:20 pkhuong is right about some of the JVMs internal security and just internal desision making.. he just pointing out i think how intrinsic jvm maintains this metainfo\ 19:19:28 however, that requires a TCO count to be maintained. 19:20:19 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:20:31 pkhuong: tail position its a break; instead of continue ;) 19:21:13 pkhuong: though really i am saing serveral functions.. infact the total call depth possible gets put into one switch statement 19:21:39 ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 19:21:49 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:21:56 Right. but I still think that doesn't fit into 1 method. 19:22:17 -!- jikanter [~Adium@66.146.192.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:22:24 computing the right call extent in some saneness tjhough is not easy.. that why often each switch is a sigle call to asingle external method 19:22:49 ehu its moire so than inlining :) 19:23:05 just use a regular trampoline then. 19:23:06 Is anyone here sending emails in their application? Is cl-smtp the main accepted way to do so? 19:23:07 or unrolling + inlining 19:23:10 xharkonnen [~charles@host86-128-227-166.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:23:21 sykopomp: run-program ? :) 19:23:34 yes many case a regulalar trampoline ( a call to a static method) is best 19:24:01 the more calls that hit the same trampolines the hotter JIT does 19:24:59 re: switch case program flowing uses less space than inlining 19:25:34 dmiles: does bigloo use the same 'exception speed up' trickery we do? 19:25:39 (any idea?) 19:25:42 nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.185.6] has joined #lisp 19:25:57 eho: throwing a Goto? 19:26:04 macobo [~Karl@sein.ut.ee] has joined #lisp 19:26:11 yea, without generating the stack fram. 19:26:13 frame. 19:26:20 stack backtrace 19:26:35 if not, that might mean their slow mode might perform considerably better in ABCL. 19:26:53 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:28:06 ehu: not sure about biglo 19:28:27 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@67-194-15-207.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 19:28:30 the examples of flow cotrol via switch case are doene in other jvm compiled langauges though 19:30:30 in larkc the trick is programmers whereencouraged to use lisp loops 19:31:01 I'd back up a step, define a "virtual machine" on the JVM that had restartable stack frames. In its implementation one would be able to optimize stack calls. This is more or less what dmiles is suggesting, with the added advantage that ABCL could then pop/push stack frames. 19:31:03 so the compiled forms used while loops for everything 19:31:05 in emacs with slime, is there a way to get all the stuff i've written in the REPL to the source file im working on? 19:31:18 frhodes [~frhodes@75-173-95-58.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:33 lordH: No. You should write things into files and send them to the REPL instead. 19:31:46 lordH: Not except cut and paste 19:32:07 oh right with c-c c-c to compile 19:32:15 C-c C-c compiles, yes. C-x C-e evaluates. 19:33:01 samlander [~a@wan1.dawatt.com] has joined #lisp 19:33:05 easyE: sure. but what about the cost? we have an interpreter in our implementation. It's not too fast, I'd say, but I don't see how to make it faster. 19:33:14 o k thanks 19:34:13 some jvm languages do i9t as step1().step2().step3().step4() .. or while(nextStep != null) { nextStep = nextStep.DoAndGetNext() } ; 19:34:45 dmiles: yes, that's the classic trampoline trick. 19:34:45 gabnet [~gabnet@149.63.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:08 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:11 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@2.149.154.167.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 19:35:21 pkhuong: whats neat about that is on teh JVM that doesnt have to consume stack even 19:35:50 that's the point of using a trampoline. 19:36:03 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:36:10 if state is needed: while(nextStep != null) { nextStep = nextStep.DoAndGetNext(currentEnv) } ; 19:37:23 pkhuong: yeah i forgot that this is also called a trampoline.. in LarKC a trampoline is a a native jvm call from lisp 19:37:24 ehu: Agreed that my suggestion doesn't suggest how to optimize such an implmentation. I guess the question is "Why is our interpreter slow?" (other than its an interpreter). 19:38:01 (and the answer to that probably comes after a lot of profiling) 19:38:10 easyE: three reasons 19:38:28 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:38:36 dmiles: is "larkc" a typo? 19:38:56 Xach: is the public name of the javalisp project at cycorp 19:39:03 emacs with slime is so fast to test your source. really amazing. 19:39:20 francogrex [~user@109.130.146.198] has joined #lisp 19:39:31 easyE, :-) hi.. i'll try to enumerate at least 3 reasons.. i can only prove a coulpe 19:39:52 easyE: too much use of arrays 19:39:58 billstclair [~billstcla@p-68-237-141-104.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:54 easyE: in JVM arrays are really really slow.. they require derefs and index bounds checking with excpoetion creation metacode in case the index is wrong 19:40:57 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-68-237-141-104.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:40:57 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:41:43 easyE: larkc went thru at least 2 years of rewriting to fix this 19:41:56 easyE: to fix all dependancies upon them 19:43:26 easyE: the problem is on this porofiling will not actuallt show the 4% lost every single thin operation 19:43:39 or i should say 40% lost 19:44:05 Are you using a spoon to type? 19:44:45 *easyE* snorts. "That's just dmiles' style/" 19:45:06 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.17] has quit [Quit: Offline] 19:45:17 the next problem is compare compiler generated jvm instructions for any lisp set of cunctions.. then ask a java programmer to write it in java.. compare the speed of the two programs 19:46:05 "...only try to realize the truth: there is no spoon." 19:46:22 larkc started with the from lisp translated versions.. now so far 40% of the code is replaced by the java progreammer version 19:46:22 Well, point #2 ain't so much a reason, as a strategy to find readons. 19:46:34 s/readons/reasons/ 19:47:04 As for point #1, hat is one supposed to use for arrays, linked lists? 19:47:33 object with field0 filed1 field2 etc 19:47:44 hmm. according to this research: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&sqi=2&ved=0CDQQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fciteseerx.ist.psu.edu%2Fviewdoc%2Fdownload%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.98.1934%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf&rct=j&q=tail%20call%20elimintation%20of%20the%20java%20virtual%20machine&ei=kCeCTpedFYGg-Abt5JmrDw&usg=AFQjCNEet1GJm2tGVwHGaExRXWsKkWpKXw&sig2=q89zk0pB97JXWjKdT_-vBA 19:47:48 .f0 .f1 etc 19:48:26 for #2 the compiler has improved serveral times .. due to the lively compition between the java programmers and the compiler author 19:48:44 a tco using a counter and an "exiting" exception seems to work well for low (<100) levels of TCO call counts 19:49:52 dmiles: you coming to ECLM 2011? 19:50:07 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [~gkeith@pool-108-20-97-221.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:50:25 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:15 easyE: i'd like to .. 15% likely :) 19:51:42 You would probably need to register pretty soon. 19:51:57 (at least by oct. 1) 19:52:20 loderunner [~loderunne@adsl-074-229-197-048.sip.mco.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:46 so i can declare a global variable with either defparameter or devar? 19:52:52 defvar 19:53:17 marw [~marw@unaffiliated/marw] has joined #lisp 19:53:41 -!- marw [~marw@unaffiliated/marw] has left #lisp 19:54:05 lordH: yes. 19:54:33 is there no difference either? 19:54:40 kpreid [~kpreid@Erics-iPhone.wlan.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 19:54:45 easyE: the #1 thing also when an array was unavoidable a array pool was used 19:55:23 <|3b|> lordH: defvar doesn't reinitialize an existing variable, and can be used to define a variable with no value 19:55:24 lordH: yes, there is a difference. 19:55:39 hi 19:55:57 An array pool would be to reuse arrays rather than defining new ones? 19:56:07 easyE: correct 19:56:21 oh i see thanks 19:56:29 <|3b|> actually, that isn't quite right... it doesn't reinitialize a variable with a value 19:56:33 easyE: since most arrays onl sed for the time it takes of one funcall 19:58:05 the code is compilked to call primtive.execute(p0,p1,p2) etc instead of ever primtive.execute(array3) 19:58:56 is there a way to see compiled code for a Lisp function in sbcl? 19:59:10 <|3b|> disassemble? 19:59:10 oh back tot hat pool.. that pool is used only when array *must* be used 19:59:41 im off, thanks for the help today guys. 19:59:52 with CFFI, is there a way to define a structure member whose count is a #define ? 20:00:19 peterhil` [~peterhil@GYYYKMCDXXIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 20:00:24 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 20:01:00 |3b|: thanks 20:01:00 I can't use :count max-vsm-size (the field is unsigned char vsm_data[MAX_VSM_SIZE]) 20:01:46 galdor: #. 20:02:22 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75dc5c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:36 |3b|: I'd like to write a little repl in c for avr micros 20:02:54 hi 20:03:13 pkhuong: didn't thought about that, thank you 20:03:43 Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:15 Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:18 uhm 20:04:27 i am looking for some suggestions 20:04:47 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-160-22-16.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:58 Blkt [~user@82.84.156.209] has joined #lisp 20:05:03 easyE: #3 much boiler plate code is move to static functions ... compiler emits all static functions 20:05:11 ob how to deploying constraint logic so i can integrate them with rest of environment ^^ 20:05:17 hey dmiles 20:05:22 have you seen curious or so 20:05:35 i remember he was in the same chats as you longer ago 20:05:37 hi Vutral :) been what 10 years? 20:05:42 yeah 20:05:45 we know eachother 20:05:48 ^^ 20:05:52 good evening everyone 20:05:55 i saw him and his strange girlfriend later well 20:05:59 in ircnet 20:06:03 but then lost him 20:06:03 lol 20:06:39 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:06:43 easyE: #3 basicalyl anything you think you kno how to do in byecode.. pretend you dont.. make a static fiunction to call.. and write it in java 20:06:48 probably he managed to install a operating logic on a killer robot which was (killing program not included) 20:07:07 emacs lisp is so easy to use ^^ 20:07:13 and guile 20:07:29 lisp makes my head hurt 20:07:36 -!- anonchik [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:07:37 na 20:07:38 Vutral: that chat robot you had.. was that virterbi model or mokov? 20:07:44 which one 20:07:51 the one the people talkes weeks to 20:07:54 well i guess you had a few ;) 20:07:57 or the boring ones 20:07:59 samlander: just because it's too small 20:08:00 i had many 20:08:01 ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:20 i even have still some code rescured over heavy crashes of filesystem structure 20:08:32 never store a inodeless file system image in a inodeless filesystem 20:08:39 when you try to rebuild the tree 20:08:51 easyE: #3 the static function will jit up very fast since 1000s of function call it 20:09:09 -!- lordH [~sogeking9@5ac58a4e.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:09:12 anonchik [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 20:09:20 call lisp execute system commands ? 20:09:22 lol 20:09:29 wow ^^ 20:09:39 BrokenCog [~danielj@adsl-065-081-078-141.sip.pns.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:44 klltkr [~klltkr@dsl78-143-205-208.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:09:56 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-10-148.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:10:17 dmiles, 20:10:23 you worked with cyc before ? 20:10:46 easyE: #3 though ABCL doesnt have too many of these idiom produced for the compiler.. buti think the problem is is too many problems are trying to be soved from the compiler level 20:10:58 abcl is nice 20:11:02 wish i had enough ram 20:11:04 dmiles: Thanks for the thoughts. All this would apply to the compiler as much as to the interpreter, though. I'm going to read the TCO paper ehu posted now. 20:11:12 conciousness is bloat 20:11:38 *easyE* Goes to the iPad. 20:11:41 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 20:11:56 Vutral: cyc's source is opensource.. that what i was comparing to ABCLs :) 20:12:02 well 20:12:09 i got worrie 20:12:09 ss 20:12:22 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-126-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 20:12:27 i need a easy solution for a constraint rulebased engine 20:12:36 which different programs can access then 20:12:57 to setup knowledge for doing decisions then ^^ 20:13:01 prodrive11 [~AndChat@212.183.128.12] has joined #lisp 20:13:05 and i got some congnitive recursion when trying to solve that 20:13:05 lol 20:13:17 mental blockades 20:13:36 i bet it could be trivial 20:13:44 -!- macobo [~Karl@sein.ut.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 261 seconds] 20:14:43 its hard to know how much of Cyc KB is reallty needed or not 20:14:50 cyc is not needed for it 20:14:55 its just a example what its about 20:14:58 but Cyc is to Lisp as Websphere is to Java 20:15:04 cyc contains useless knowledge 20:15:07 and java is too big 20:15:25 i need a place to store the knowledge 20:15:29 for runtime 20:15:39 and then dump the state and load it again 20:15:43 ^^ 20:15:56 but i cant assume the same lisp program can load itself 20:15:59 Cyc is an application framework .. a mix of AllegroCache/AllegraGraph/AllegroProlog/Whatnot 20:16:03 hrhr 20:16:07 prolog yeah 20:16:16 i solve prolog stuff easier with mathematics mostly 20:16:17 i think 20:16:35 well with a tradeoff in exactness 20:17:05 well one can remove all the data from Cyc.. and just use the lisp programming framework i suppose 20:17:27 well cyc provides a api 20:17:33 for accessing the engine 20:17:37 but eventually whoever does that .. starts wanting to load biuts andf pieces they just blasted out of cyc ;) 20:17:37 in sense of like rpc or so 20:18:19 cyc is not perfect 20:18:41 at the moment it works pretty well setting up a infrastructure for handling the massive amounts of data i try to process ^^ 20:19:04 Cyc on the JVM,Allegro,C uses 18,12,5 gb respectivley 20:19:13 ram ? 20:19:17 yes 20:19:17 ^^ 20:19:31 i dont think that would work for me 20:19:44 i need to create so many entities and logic in cyc afterwards then 20:19:47 to describe the system 20:19:48 deke [~deke@fl-71-54-184-132.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:49 though JVM runs faster than Alegro and C at many things 20:19:59 cyc doesnt support reflection easily 20:20:13 reflection into lisp? 20:20:19 inversion of control 20:20:20 ^^ 20:20:31 callbacks 20:20:43 it does.. but you have to write lots of sublisp 20:21:04 carefully plan when its in prover mode vs raw lisp mode 20:21:08 i guess its easier making emacs talk with rest of the world 20:21:09 oudeis [~oudeis@2.54.254.131] has joined #lisp 20:21:19 ^^ 20:21:30 MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-79-25.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:37 sure emacs can be like an application framework 20:21:42 i know 20:21:53 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@2.54.254.131] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:22:26 emacs is nice 20:22:30 sometimes 20:22:41 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.226.67] has joined #lisp 20:22:46 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-18-79-25.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:49 i once had a nice working emacs state 20:22:51 at least yes emacs you knmow at the get go how much it will or wont do to solve your problems.. cyc sort of harder to know what is already there or not 20:22:58 it seemed to get smarter all the time 20:23:00 lol 20:23:11 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:23:21 well cyc can parse nlp 20:23:29 but all the stuff in it has not a real meaning 20:23:35 its enough when a program can lie to the user 20:23:48 the user usually thinks its smart then ^^ 20:23:57 well emacs you know at start it wont do nlp ;) cyc.. how much is it going to do if you donwload or not?! 20:24:05 and well belief desire intenion 20:24:12 nono 20:24:15 emacs is the other way around 20:24:18 it teaches you emacs 20:24:20 ^^ 20:24:27 and sometime you notice 20:24:31 the others dont understand you 20:24:35 like in stargate or so 20:24:44 when jack oneill only speaks ancient 20:24:45 lol 20:26:01 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-79-25.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:26:04 speaking of belief desire intention... one could rewire emacs menu system and all ports to pass thru a BDI api 20:26:14 good idea 20:26:19 ^^ 20:26:22 i just read the clips source 20:26:37 its nice whats strategies they implement 20:26:49 even thought its a bit impractical 20:27:51 if you read the same code in java you go crazy 20:28:30 it gets somehow much more complicated 20:28:44 but cougaar replicates much from the older expert systems 20:29:48 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-18-79-25.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:30:12 MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-79-25.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:54 i bet running clips and cyc together on the same data is a good thing 20:34:02 letting clipse runb in cyc 20:34:16 yaeh 20:34:22 thats the stuff i think about 20:34:26 but well 20:34:56 i miss one or two good ideas on howto run clips so its accessible bidirectionally for integration with the rest 20:34:56 lol 20:35:01 hm. how to conveniently define equality of structures as memberwise equality ? 20:35:15 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35:17 codelurker [~codelurke@c-65-96-210-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:22 clips does attributes 20:35:30 in the metacell structures 20:35:46 or so 20:35:47 i could give :type vector to defstruct, but is there anything "cleaner"? 20:36:07 what do you want todo 20:36:22 i see atoms and so 20:36:26 lol 20:36:29 drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:37:18 macobo [~Karl@233.24.190.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 20:37:52 fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9518c5d.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 20:38:56 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:39:52 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8160C6.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:43:45 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.146.198] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44:45 zvrba: you want EQUALP, probably 20:44:53 "If two structures S1 and S2 have the same class and the value of each slot in S1 is the same under equalp as the value of the corresponding slot in S2. " 20:45:29 tfb: does that apply to structures, too? 20:45:34 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 20:45:45 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 20:45:55 tfb: oh. i though equalp wouldn't do anything different than equal, since equal === eq for structs 20:46:49 zvrba: it's sort of a half-way house between EQUAL and insanity 20:47:25 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.75.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:47:48 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@c-65-96-210-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 20:48:39 why do there exist both structures and classes? 20:49:00 i've noticed that structs don't have any kind of introspection (e.g., iteration over members) 20:49:00 zvrba: structures are older 20:49:07 because once there weren't classes 20:49:20 though, an option would probably be making a structure a vector 20:49:29 (vector t) option 20:49:39 codelurker [~codelurke@c-65-96-210-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:47 older and simpler :) 20:49:48 BlankVer1e [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 20:49:49 Structures came first. They're easier to implement. They might be faster. I can probably think of more reasons. 20:50:21 -!- jasom [~aidenn@ip98-182-25-247.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:50:29 defstruct is a nice way to add a few accessors to a data structure that uses lists/vectors, too. 20:51:06 sykopomp: oh, nice trick! :) 20:51:06 and is actually quite nice when defining simple objects. 20:51:23 also, even given that the real reason is historical, structures have the obvious you-can-optimize-the-shit-out-of-them advantages 20:51:23 structures can't be redefined at runtime, though, which is why it is often better to use classes. 20:51:37 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@Erics-iPhone.wlan.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: Offline] 20:52:01 the syntax of structure definitions is what many people like, but then, there are loads of definer macros that make the clos syntax easier. 20:52:03 H4ns: yeah, when I did it with slime, it asked me to continue at my own risk (assuming the redefinition is incompatible), or to invalidate existing code. 20:52:12 but: how does it track and invalidate existing code? 20:52:26 portably: it doesn't 20:52:30 implementations might 20:52:30 frx [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:34 sbcl! 20:52:36 zvrba: with close, instances can (and will be) reinitialized when the class definition changes 20:52:37 the defstruct syntax gets very hairy, very fast. 20:52:56 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:32 sykopomp: right. i know many programmers who thought that a simplified defclass thing makes sense, but eventually recognized that it doesn't. me included 20:54:25 everyone has written a simpler-defclass which they no longer use. It's a rite of passage. 20:54:37 :) 20:54:39 *sykopomp* did it, too. 20:55:02 tfb: I even wrote a simpler-defclass for a MFOS 20:55:03 all old-enough people have written a defstruct-that-uses-arrays, which they also no longer use except for some old code 20:55:08 that's gotta get me extra points. 20:55:41 it doesn't help that defclass doesn't have an example in hyperspec >: 20:55:46 MFTOS* 20:55:48 zvrba: if i confused you, i meant to write "clos" above, talking about reinitialization 20:55:50 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@149.63.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 20:55:57 H4ns: i got it :) 20:56:03 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-216-37.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: Good night.] 20:56:03 zvrba: you need to read a real book. two, frankly. keene and amop 20:56:13 keene? 20:56:27 optikalmouse [~user@bas1-toronto07-1176321561.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:56:38 zvrba: http://www.amazon.com/Object-Oriented-Programming-Common-Lisp-Programmers/dp/0201175894 20:56:46 it's a nice book 20:57:04 hrmpf. i think i'll stick to defstruct for the time being 20:57:05 *prxq* bought amop but hasn't opened it yet 20:57:07 any opticl users here? it's taking 17 seconds to read a few PNGs and then to resize one of them. Surely the reading shouldn't take that long and neither should the resize... :S 20:57:23 prxq: how much was it? and is there an ebook version of it? ;p 20:57:32 zvrba: in fact, there are some decent defclass intros out there. 20:57:39 optikalmouse: bought it new on amazon 20:57:41 prxq: yeah, i thought so. 20:57:48 just didn't need any of them yet. 20:57:49 We call it "Keene" because nobody can seem to decide on how to spell her first name. (The book itself spells it at least two different ways.) 20:58:00 I got my copy of AMOP recently as well, again from amazon 20:58:12 only really read the first chapter so far though 20:58:24 hah, keene, amop and lol = $104 :P 20:58:33 bargain 20:58:39 *sykopomp* needs to get a new copy after permanently 'lending' his old copy. 20:58:43 of amop* 20:58:49 zvrba: clos classes are nice and pretty standard for basic use. Slightly more usefull than structs too. Why do you want to avoid them? 20:59:20 (slightly more usefull for standard uses, I mean) 20:59:38 as far as object systems go CLOS is pretty awesome, imho 20:59:44 prxq: i have only recently started with lisp. 20:59:45 oh yes 20:59:53 prxq: going through sicp, solving exercises. 21:00:01 prxq: i don't want to dive deep, yet. 21:00:19 zvrba: ok. Well sicp isn't that common-lisp oriented. 21:00:26 since the problem in question really did need simple data storage, i use struct 21:00:26 but all the wonderful alien creatures are in the depths 21:00:31 :) 21:00:51 indeed 21:00:55 prxq: i know. i tried scheme. i didn't like it. i do know enough programming to easily convert between the two 21:00:56 frito [~androirc@cpc12-sotn9-2-0-cust578.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:03 -!- BrokenCog [~danielj@adsl-065-081-078-141.sip.pns.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:01:22 zvrba: keep doing Common Lisp and that will soon change :) 21:01:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:01:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 21:01:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 21:01:48 gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-ymkbpwleaojbxjil] has joined #lisp 21:01:57 mon_key: what will change? 21:02:00 zvrba: ok. The only thing i dislike of clos classes is the verbosity. :accessor xxx :initarg yyy etc etc 21:02:07 zvrba: soon grokking Scheme will make your brain hurt :) 21:02:16 oh? 21:02:16 mon_key: why 21:02:18 ? 21:02:33 prxq: the verbosity is the price of awesomeness. 21:02:36 one of the main reasons for disliking scheme is its extreme verbosity in procedure names 21:02:53 -!- dlowe [dlowe@nat/google/x-tujonxczfvdpghhs] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:02:56 call-with-current-continuation being the most guilty one, but not the only one 21:02:57 -!- acelent` is now known as acelent 21:03:11 i've been working on a package to make things far more concise 21:03:12 I often find it harder to read scheme than a curly-braced lang 21:03:19 -!- frito [~androirc@cpc12-sotn9-2-0-cust578.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:03:29 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:03:30 mon_key: ya. 21:03:40 i'm surprised someone hasn't already 21:03:57 oGMo: well :-) think about it. 21:04:04 prxq: ? 21:04:20 everybody invents their own abbreviations. 21:04:21 -!- prodrive11 [~AndChat@212.183.128.12] has quit [Quit: Bye] 21:04:23 oGMo: likely, people have done that before a couple of times. 21:04:23 oGMo: thing is, there is a standard, and then there are arbitrary abbreviations. 21:04:25 hooray for nonstandards! :D 21:04:33 oh, well, sure 21:04:37 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:04:52 oGMo: if you want to keep your code readable for others, stick to the standards. 21:04:57 H4ns: eh 21:04:59 i find long names are irrelevant due to M- and helpful otherwise 21:05:03 -!- ISF_ [~ivan@143.106.196.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:05:47 *sykopomp* has been using auto-complete-mode with slime-ac for super-awesome completion. 21:05:49 are methods in lisp just functions? they are not part of a class 21:06:00 cl is pretty close to the point of diminishing returns in terms of cuteness 21:06:12 frx: methods are methods 21:06:13 frx: methods are part of generic functions. 21:06:15 frx: exactly 21:06:35 why bother with fancy dictionary based abbreviations if you can just use dabbrev everywhere? :) 21:06:37 functions with a protocol 21:06:52 prxq: ah, and scheme doesn't have SLIME! 21:07:07 prxq: though, i haven't tried geiser. dunno if it works on windows. 21:07:51 H4ns: readability 21:08:06 frx: clos has a different object philosophy than C++, for example. 21:08:07 oGMo: abbreviations don't make code more readable. 21:08:17 H4ns: disagree 21:08:26 oGMo: abbreviations basically define a _new_ language. 21:08:27 i like the idea of generic functions. 21:08:28 though, i'm not just talking about "abbreviations" 21:08:29 prxq yeah, I'm trying to get my head around it. I'm familiar with C++ and java 21:08:38 H4ns: lisp is _about_ defining new language 21:08:44 it seems conceptually simple, and to me, much more intuitive than class-based OO 21:09:15 oGMo: i disagree. lisp is about having a language that has no borders. 21:09:35 oGMo: that does not mean that the existing language body should be changed, just because you can. 21:09:37 frx: you can think of methods in clos as methods that can be a members in more than one class at once. 21:09:38 oGMo: I would think a new language implies both new _syntax_ and grammar. Abbreviations are only new grammar. 21:09:44 cb` [~user@cpe-72-134-23-187.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:09:45 -!- cb` [~user@cpe-72-134-23-187.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:09:55 frx: that's not entirely accurate but can get you started. 21:10:02 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.237.227] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:10:07 H4ns: no, but it doesn't mean that you shouldn't provide new domain-specific language just because it's "not standard" 21:10:26 oGMo: but if you like more concise, maybe you like clojure or arc better. they try that, in addition to having different semantics. 21:10:28 -!- BlankVer1e [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:10:31 H4ns: the standard is done, i doubt we will see another; but if everyone leaves it at that, nothing happens 21:10:32 oGMo: so, what is your abbreviation for destructuring-bind? 21:10:39 -!- hun` [~user@178-27-102-152-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:10:46 prxq: er wait what 21:10:48 oGMo: right. but just abbreviating lisp will not move it forward. 21:10:52 oGMo: nothing like what happens? 21:11:03 *zvrba* --> sleep. 'night 21:11:16 mon_key: i'm not really talking about just abbreviations so much as more concise syntax for certain things, like defclass 21:11:48 oGMo: yes, i understand you are talking about hungarian DWIM'ing of CL :) 21:11:48 oGMo: many tried, many failed. maybe there is a reason for that. 21:11:53 H4ns: i'd agree, simple abbreviations aren't going to do much, but 21:12:24 mon_key: how's that? 21:12:40 (def (function e) foo (bar) ...) 21:12:40 *sykopomp* thinks the only thing extreme abbreviation is going to get you is eyerolls and lectures about readability. 21:12:50 oGMo: there's a problem with shorter defclass. And it is that you have to infer whatever the macro is doing for you. 21:13:25 and define ways to override the defaults, and soon you have a mess. 21:14:02 otoh, if you come up with something that is really better, it might stick. 21:14:03 mon_key: sortof, but not exactly 21:14:32 prxq: eh .. you could say that about anything. a function does stuff for you, but as soon as you want to do something different, it becomes a mess? 21:15:05 *sykopomp* thinks 'abbreviated defclass' tends to be more of a thinko about how to use CLOS. 21:15:10 prxq: the point is: the standard is prose. most attempts to make CL "shorter" and "more concise" consist of just code. there might be a chance if someone came up with something that is very good and documented, too 21:15:25 just slamming together some macros and tell people "to read the tests" will not do. 21:15:27 oGMo: "sortof, but not exactly" _is_ exactly why a highly DSL'd version of standard ANSI CL operators is a bad idea. 21:16:09 -!- rosario [~user@fsf/member/rosario] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:16:32 C++ has a different Object philosophy than just about every other definition of OO in whatever language 21:16:39 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 21:16:42 *shrug* 21:16:44 oGMo: not in this case, because your "function" has lots and lots of side effects that affect everything else (e.g. accessor definition) 21:17:07 Xach: my atom feed URL may have changed with the octopress move. can planet.lisp.org still get at the feed? 21:17:09 explains it all a lot better than me http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/ 21:17:19 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:17:31 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 21:17:46 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:17:58 (access log says yes, but I don't see the last post in the planet.lisp timeline 21:18:06 I agree with H4ns that the problem might be "well documented and thoroughly debugged" more than anything else. 21:18:11 cb` [~user@cpe-72-134-23-187.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:18:20 Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:35 I like Alan Kay's quote on C++: Actually I made up the term "object-oriented", and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind. 21:20:33 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@dsl78-143-205-208.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:22:19 good night everyone 21:22:28 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.156.209] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:51 jasom [~aidenn@ip98-182-25-247.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:20 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:28:26 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.185] has joined #lisp 21:28:53 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-070.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:30:30 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-177-201-46.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:04 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:31:09 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 21:31:27 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:32:37 Guthur: isn't C++'s (object) philosophy "excuse all the creeping horror in the name of C-compatibility, while not actually being compatible with C" 21:35:10 tfb, Do be honest it lost on me how the justify a lot of C++, but I'd imagine the word 'performance' might be used 21:35:14 -!- samlander [~a@wan1.dawatt.com] has quit [] 21:35:19 Do/To 21:35:35 run fast, write slow 21:35:52 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.237.227] has joined #lisp 21:36:20 It's actually really sad, because C was (is) a *nice* language for what it does 21:36:48 yep, but I found this an interesting quote http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/toddpro/papers/law.htm 21:38:10 I found it via Peter Norvig's site 21:38:37 most people I know that use C++ say something like "it's a nice language if you ignore most of it" 21:39:00 which is a rather interesting thing to say. 21:39:19 but then if you do ignore most of it you might as well use C 21:39:21 (they don't put it exactly like that, though) 21:39:43 A guy at work was more or less saying the same thing 21:39:44 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 21:40:02 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 21:40:11 Guthur: well, the basic classes stuff is indeed somewhat better than emulating that same behavior with structs and pointers. 21:40:11 c++ is great if you grok it. if you don't, it is easy to dismiss it because of "all the complexity" 21:40:19 pretty much the same can be said about any language. 21:40:22 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:40:55 H4ns: so you deny that it has an unusual level of arbitrary complexity? 21:41:03 prxq: absolutely. 21:41:15 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:41:33 H4ns: an undecidable, extremely hard to parse syntax? 21:41:35 prxq: it has been developed with some very real constraints, coming from the desire to be backwards compatible. 21:41:48 prxq: that is what comes with this constraint, yes. 21:41:51 It's not always the complexity for me, but rather the complete lack of some stuff we would take for granted in higher level languages 21:42:16 prxq: but i'm not a compiler writer, so i don't complain about that. the complexity of c++'s syntax has never bothered me much, as a programmer. 21:42:29 such as first class functions and closures, I really miss those the most 21:42:41 Guthur: i don't find that to be true either, at least with c++0x 21:42:56 H4ns, can't use c++0x at work yet 21:42:57 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:43:01 i programmed C++ for quite a while, and the syntax did not bother me either. 21:43:02 ...for me 21:43:17 but when I tried CL I realized that it was a total drag. 21:43:29 I mean C++ syntax. 21:43:35 it's really baroque 21:43:49 prxq: understandably. c++ is a big and mean beast. but then, so is common lisp :) 21:44:08 H4ns: not at in comparable ways. 21:44:10 quick quiz then: why will this not compile list> 21:44:23 Guthur: *yawn* 21:44:39 -!- cb` [~user@cpe-72-134-23-187.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:42 it's related to overly complex grammar 21:44:56 the compiler can determine that the >> is not an operator 21:45:06 can't* 21:45:12 Guthur: the point being? 21:45:14 rvirding [~chatzilla@c213-89-147-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:45:18 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 21:45:19 Guthur: when someone decides that this is not a porblem for him, the discussion is normally over, even if it is actually a problem for him. 21:45:26 that the grammar is FUBAR 21:45:50 prxq, yeah it went that way at work as well 21:45:51 Guthur: grammar, grammar. i write it so the compiler understands it, problem solved. 21:46:20 Guthur: when i look for beauty, i go into an arts gallery :) 21:46:23 H4ns: The whole point of computers is to do things for us, not the other way around 21:46:36 this convo will go no where 21:46:51 drdo: well, if that'd be the case, then we'd not write lisp programs. 21:47:02 what do you mean? 21:47:17 -!- tomaw is now known as 5EXAAKYAN 21:47:31 H4ns: may I take "when i look for beauty, i go into an arts gallery" as a description of your mind set? 21:47:34 drdo: i mean that we're far from having computers do the work for us. in particular if we are programmers. 21:47:50 H4ns: programming is about describing what is to be done 21:48:27 prxq: no. i can appreciate good engineering, and i have followed c++ long enough to understand the constraints in which it has been created. 21:48:30 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has joined #lisp 21:49:23 H4ns: so yes, it is an optimum given the constraints. That, IMO, doesn't say that much, because among other things ignores the issue of constraint justification. 21:49:28 vert2 [~vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-ztqtalhdzbqamuae] has joined #lisp 21:50:08 -!- 5EXAAKYAN is now known as tomaw 21:50:08 it is like a car build out of beer cans. Sure, impressive, but .. ?? 21:50:12 prxq: well, in the end, it is good to get things done and it is bad to complain about things that other people use to get things done. 21:51:30 H4ns: Why is it bad? 21:51:59 drdo: because it usually shows ignorance and lack of knowledge and experience. 21:51:59 drdo: because it wastes time that could be spent getting things done (: 21:52:37 H4ns: Someone saying something is bad shows lack of knowledge and experience? 21:53:06 drdo: in this particular discussion i'd say so. 21:53:07 drdo: apparently, everything must be fair and balanced. 21:53:11 cb` [~user@cpe-72-134-23-187.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:53:56 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:54:01 I learned something today, pointing out the emperor has no clothes shows lack of knowledge and experience 21:54:08 I didn't know that 21:54:13 isn't "saying something bad is bad" saying something bad? 21:54:29 drdo: if that is what you take away, who would i be to complain? 21:54:40 drdo: meanwhile, i'll be productive hacking some c++ later on. 21:54:42 H4ns: frankly, I disagree. Criticizing C++ for its syntax is entirely legitimate. That is done regularly by people who actually know the language 21:55:05 H4ns: that's your call, but that does not remove the validity of the arguments 21:55:06 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:13 Xach: about Paul Graham's quote "This is what fast Common Lisp code looks like" (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22This+is+what+fast+Common+Lisp+code+looks+like%22) 21:55:15 Xach: i think his point of view is that any recursive definition is a natural one. then, there's tail-recursiveness 21:55:27 prxq: "legitimate", well, yes. it is all legitimate. 21:55:28 otoh, it's very easy to look very knowledgeable about C++ if you go "psh, the syntax sucks" (: 21:55:54 antifuchs: so that means the syntax does not suck, automatically? 21:56:29 The syntax of C++ is not the issue 21:56:41 The whole idea is the problem 21:56:41 drdo: but? 21:56:49 it is not the only issue, IMO. 21:56:52 drdo: what is "the whole idea" then? 21:56:54 gtoast [~cdimara@208.106.22.18] has joined #lisp 21:57:00 prxq: not saying that. tons of syntaxes suck, though, and they don't seem to keep people from using the respective languages 21:57:15 *|3b|* thinks arguing about languages is the problem 21:57:27 antifuchs: that is another matter entirely. 21:57:48 H4ns: The whole idea is that we should be programming at such low levels 21:58:14 <|3b|> either do things so cool people want to know how your language helped you do that, or wait for them to find the problems in their language that yours solves, or give up, since nobody is going to be convinced anyway 21:58:15 drdo: this is not a question of "what we should do" but of "what we must do" 21:58:23 H4ns: Why do we must? 21:58:43 drdo: because we want to solve problems that require us to be fast? 21:58:55 drdo: a.k.a. real-life constraints. 21:58:59 Are you serious? 21:59:09 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@c-65-96-210-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 21:59:22 H4ns: so if you want to have fast run time, you have to program in C++? 21:59:26 drdo: in a perfect world, we'd not be programming computers. we'd tell them what to do and they'd understand us and do the right thing. until then, we'll have to live with what we have. 21:59:34 H4ns: i.e. do curly braces imply speed? 21:59:43 -!- xharkonnen [~charles@host86-128-227-166.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:59:56 prxq: sure, man. the curlies are teh speed demon 22:00:02 H4ns: How about investing in compiler technology? 22:00:20 i.e. solving the problem once 22:00:27 drdo: that is being done. some fine day, nobody will program in c++ anymore. 22:00:53 drdo: but i'll tell you what: very good compilers are being written in c++ 22:01:31 drdo: do you suggest that they should not be written in c++ because c++ sucks? 22:01:40 Yes i do 22:02:02 drdo: ah, ok. 22:02:09 in a perfect world, one would program in every programming language and yet create their own ones. however, we die, time is our most precious resource, and here we are discussing philosophy about how to waste our time with languages and compilers 22:02:50 H4ns: Look at the sorry state of computing today, if that doesn't frighten you, i don't know what to tell you 22:02:55 in a perfect world, we wouldn't have to try and express our intentions in something so crude as code 22:03:02 maybe there wouldn't be a "we" at all 22:03:47 antifuchs: it depends on what's perfect. i assumed imortality, sane-minded people with no resource constraints, perhaps even god-powers :D 22:03:56 however, it is not a problem for me to imagine a somewhat better world where nobody programs in C++ but something slightly saner, like ada. 22:04:06 It gets even funnier when the people crying "performance" are the ones designing systems that have fundamental limits on performance 22:04:29 acelent: you could exclude consciousness from perfection (: 22:04:39 +1 for drdo 22:05:01 drdo: of course! are you willing to wait 60 years for a solution, when you can spend the next 40 finding a way to make that solution compute in seconds? 22:06:10 acelent: actually, the trade off is, spend one year on something that computes the solution in a week, figure out it doesn't actually matter, and move on. Alternatively, spend the next 40 finding a way to make that solution compute in seconds. 22:06:11 (60 years if electricity doesn't go down :P) 22:06:40 prxq: thing is, it actually matters 22:07:11 acelent: sometimes it might. But it is still a trade-off 22:07:48 acelent: and, that prototype is likely to give you very valuable insight you will not get with the 40 year project 22:08:11 well, you can write good and bad programs in any language. the larger the program becomes, the smaller the influence of the program language on the overall quality of the program becomes. 22:08:32 prxq: the 40 years was an exageration, but it includes middle-points 22:08:39 H4ns: while i can't relate details, I have evidence to the contrary. 22:08:41 prxq: and thus, writing code quickly rather than writing quick code is usually more valuable :P 22:08:59 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:09:27 oGMo: indeed. 22:09:29 H4ns: very much untrue 22:09:38 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:09:47 oGMo: i thought you were replying H4ns :) 22:10:06 acelent: ? 22:10:16 acelent: What do you mean? 22:10:16 mind the irc jitter 22:10:18 well, i'll need some sleep. good night. 22:10:19 kpreid_ [~kpreid@128.153.215.226] has joined #lisp 22:10:20 -!- H4ns [41173d62@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.23.61.98] has quit [] 22:10:25 -!- kpreid_ [~kpreid@128.153.215.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:29 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.185] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:10:44 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.185] has joined #lisp 22:11:26 acelent: What i meant is more in the sense of "we should spend N+M years finding the solution to broad classes of problems instead of spending N years FOR EACH problem" 22:11:33 oGMo, drdo: " prxq: and thus, writing code quickly rather than writing quick code is usually more valuable :P" 22:11:48 oh 22:11:52 littlegiraffe [~littlegir@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:37 unix is a very good example of what's wrong 22:12:47 drdo: that depends a lot on need and motivation 22:12:50 let's take linux for example 22:13:06 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:13:14 they have this huge code base locally hand optimized to be resonably fast 22:13:28 it's a huge mess 22:13:46 if you took another approach, you get get a nicer smaller solution that's also faster 22:13:59 drdo: like gnu mach? 22:14:05 no 22:14:19 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:14:22 i think that narrative is not entirely correct. A lot of linux was initially about getting things running in the first place 22:15:03 drdo: are you really claiming that a nicer smaller solution could be actually faster with high probability? 22:16:45 acelent: yes, it's a simple idea, write programs in another language (other than machine language) and have the kernel compile them for you 22:16:59 drdo: possibly but perhaps not the best example, as i'm pretty sure linux's goal is to be what linux is today 22:17:14 you immediatly lose the need for most of what unix is about (enforcing permissions) 22:17:22 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:48 drdo: Have you seen "the Unix-Haters Handbook"? It's old and I'm not well-versed in this, but I thought it was an interesting take on the subject... 22:18:04 Bike: yes i have read it 22:18:22 i'm not sure how the lack of permissions in a multiuser networked environment is reasonable 22:18:31 ah, okay then. 22:18:32 oGMo: it's not a lack of permissions 22:18:54 you can enforce the permissions when you compile instead of at every single call 22:19:00 drdo: bad idea 22:19:04 damn, no way! 22:19:13 oGMo: why 22:19:32 drdo: because you have someone who hand-writes code and bypasses the compile-time check 22:19:37 drdo: that would mean you'd know the necessary permissions at compile-time 22:19:39 sounds like you need a pretty decent theorem prover in that compiler 22:19:41 oGMo: The point is that you can't 22:19:46 i.e. alientech 22:19:46 drdo: but you always can 22:20:00 oGMo: go write "hand-written code" in emacs 22:20:02 drdo: the inability to directly address the machine introduces bigger problems 22:20:08 Oberon OS? 22:20:27 you also lose the need for this process isolation shit 22:20:37 drdo: and really, solving the problem at a high level is considerably more complicated than solving it at a few fundamental lower-level points 22:20:38 you can make better global decisions 22:20:42 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:21:11 for example, go try and make a secure common lisp environment 22:21:30 oGMo: What do you mean by secure? 22:21:42 no ffi? 22:21:45 drdo: all permissions enforced at a language level, like you're talking about 22:22:05 something like ruby's $SAFE (which doesn't always work itself) 22:22:13 I have no idea what that is 22:22:20 centipedefarmer [~centipede@city-of-wdsm-007.desm.netins.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:47 drdo: a compiler would have to be able to prove that a piece of code is safe under your system, no? 22:23:04 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23:15 prxq: What do you mean by safe there? 22:23:16 drdo: well, you know what you were talking about earlier, enforcing permissions at compile time; let's say we wanted to designate a number of features as "safe" or "unsafe", and have the ability to "safely" execute untrusted code locally 22:23:31 without relying on OS partitioning 22:23:44 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@city-of-wdsm-007.desm.netins.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:23:57 Java does it to some extent, as i recall 22:24:10 oGMo: just disable the bindings for the unsafe shit 22:24:23 or replace them with something that does something else 22:24:27 drdo: safe = compliant with all permissions 22:24:44 prxq: You need to be more specific 22:24:53 drdo: ah, but it's also pretty easy to recover the bindings, or rebind things unsafely, or call things that use the bindings, etc 22:25:08 drdo: no, it is you who claims that the compiler can enforce permissions at compile time. 22:25:08 oGMo: how exactly do you recover them? 22:26:00 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-21-212.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:01 -!- drewc [~user@PC687f74269abb-WM0003D709793f.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:26:06 drdo: how are you proposing to get rid of them? restrict the reader from interning symbols not in the sandbox package? if you can call INTERN for instance, that's moot 22:26:18 ??? 22:26:20 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-79-25.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:26:24 intern doesn't magically make shit up 22:26:34 it gives you a symbol 22:26:44 right 22:27:00 I can't say (intern "factorial") and suddenly out of magic i have a factorial function 22:27:32 drdo: are you proposing you remove bindings from the common-lisp package? 22:27:40 Who is talking about common lisp? 22:27:45 I never mentioned common lisp 22:27:56 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-152-77.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:03 H4ns [431741ca@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.23.65.202] has joined #lisp 22:28:09 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:28:26 *austinh* wishes everyone was talking about common lisp 22:28:35 drdo: i said what you're asking is very difficult, and if not, demonstrate how it could be accomplished in common lisp 22:28:39 I just gave you the general idea of what i was talking about 22:28:55 I didn't sit down and work out the details of it 22:29:03 But it's not hard to imagine this sort of thing 22:29:22 -!- littlegiraffe [~littlegir@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has left #lisp 22:29:27 ...which is where the problems lie. 22:29:31 it's easy to imagine, and hard to implement .. java tried, mostly successfully, i guess 22:29:44 drdo: I can imagine faster than light travel very easily 22:29:50 but given this is #lisp, that might be a counterexample 22:29:59 prxq: i doubt that :P 22:30:16 i doubt you can even imagine 1/4 the speed of light travel 22:31:08 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:08 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@static-50-43-53-7.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:31:08 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 22:31:14 Also, i'm not saying that this is a one week project 22:31:59 drdo: maybe we have different definitions of "imagine" 22:32:01 maybe I should have "spoken louder", but I'm pretty sure that the Oberon system enforces security with the compiler? 22:32:02 I'm just saying that operating systems like there are today are a dead end 22:32:47 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-ymkbpwleaojbxjil] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:33:22 wbooze` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-71.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:33:29 there was a post on LTU about the SAFE OS recently 22:33:31 Bike: not familiar with 22:33:34 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-71.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:33:34 Bike: the problem is that, pretty soon, you end up having to prove things about the program. This can get fundamentally impossible very fast. 22:33:40 didn't really read it though 22:33:57 prxq: what are you talking about? 22:33:58 I'm not too familiar with it either, but it does at least exist. 22:34:14 actually it was more a platform than an OS 22:34:15 drdo: given the trending idea is to make your browser the OS, things are worse than "dead end" 22:34:18 drdo: enforcing constraints at compile time 22:34:21 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4353 22:34:28 prxq: provide an example 22:34:51 Guthur: that's not at all what i'm talking about 22:35:02 Those guys are proving that the operating system is correct 22:35:05 drdo, sorry I was only half following to be honest 22:35:57 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-240.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:36:01 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-240.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:38:00 drdo: for example, buffer overflows. It is impossible to prove in advance (to full accuracy) that they won't happen. You need run-time bound checks for that. 22:38:10 prxq: that is not true 22:38:18 yes it is 22:38:23 heh 22:38:29 -!- optikalmouse [~user@bas1-toronto07-1176321561.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 22:38:41 drdo: not without bound cheking in place 22:38:56 i mean run time bound checking 22:38:56 prxq: it's possible to check that statically 22:39:04 no it is not :-) 22:39:14 drdo: it is true: if you don't control the input data and you have finite memory, you can always get too much memory 22:39:16 not if the lengts depend on input data 22:39:26 s/memory/data 22:39:28 sorry 22:39:30 prxq: go read about dependent types 22:39:46 that's not the sort of thing i was talking about anyway 22:40:21 drdo: no, you go learn about undecidability 22:40:43 drdo: you were imagining some vague stuff that was supposed to be totally awesome 22:41:17 it's a very important thing though, if your applicatation ever needs to talk to some uncontrolled source, which is close to the same thing as saying "is an interesting application" 22:41:24 prxq: Please go read about stuff that actually exists before saying shit 22:41:25 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:26 drdo: so basically, you either have static arrays with safe compile-time bounds checking or you have dynamically allocated arrays with safe run-time bounds checking 22:41:45 drdo: what acelent says 22:41:45 you can't type-check the user 22:42:20 acelent: no 22:42:51 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:42:59 drdo: it might be possible to prove for specific apps, but not in general 22:43:21 prxq: like i said, go read about type theory instead of saying random shit 22:43:37 drdo: i think it is you who needs to learn something new 22:43:42 drdo: are you suggesting that recompilation happens due to dynamic sized array creation? 22:43:53 acelent: what? 22:44:25 drdo: you said no, please expand. your "go read types and sh1t" doesn't convice me at all 22:44:44 acelent: I'm not just about to explain it to you 22:44:57 there's lots of reading material 22:45:17 drdo: oh ok then, you could at least try to explain this specific case, or give pointers to it 22:45:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin-L%C3%B6f%27s_type_theory 22:46:24 Does this discussion have anything to do with Common Lisp? 22:46:24 drdo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependent_type 22:47:24 joelr [~joelr@159.153.144.23] has joined #lisp 22:47:26 bombshelter13b_ [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:47:28 moin 22:47:46 joelr: hi! 22:47:56 acelent: what about that? 22:47:56 drdo: you can search for "decidable" in both articles 22:48:05 how do you generate #.name from a macro? #. ,name complains that a comma is out of a backquote 22:48:08 or undecidable, for that matter 22:48:15 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:48:24 joelr: what do you mean by #.name? 22:48:35 joelr: #. is applied by the lisp reader, so you can't actually to it that way 22:48:41 given a list of symbols, i'm trying to generate an ecase statement. the symbols are used to create constant names, which are predefined 22:48:57 and i normally do (ecase (#.const )) which is what i'm trying to generate from a macro 22:49:03 oops 22:49:11 joelr: no need to do that, since you have the value at macroexpansion time. 22:49:14 joelr: so (defmacro ... `(foo #.something) ...) actually evals something before the macro is defined 22:49:19 acelent: now go on the other page and read the part "Extensional versus intensional" 22:49:38 drdo: same story 22:49:54 what same story? 22:50:37 type checking in these systems is undecidable. 22:50:39 drdo: static type -> compile-time, dynamic type (e.g. with regard to a value) -> run-time 22:50:53 tfb: no it's not 22:51:32 by the way, lisp compilation is undecidable 22:51:41 drdo: so, for instance, bounds checking at compile-time limits you to predefined array sizes, while dynamically sized arrays require run-time bounds checking 22:51:56 acelent: NO, FOR THE NTH TIME NO 22:52:00 drdo: sure, but we don't care, that's the difference. 22:52:30 drdo: yes, of course. That's the point we're trying to make 22:52:39 drdo: :D ok then. you don't care to minimally explain how a dynamically sized array can be safely acecssed with compile-time bounds checking 22:53:02 acelent: Can you minimally explain nuclear physics to me? 22:53:03 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-153-103.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:53:10 I'm short on time and i don't care to make the effort 22:53:21 -!- tsuru` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:53:21 -!- frx [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org] 22:53:22 drdo: i'm not even trying to 22:53:37 -!- joelr [~joelr@159.153.144.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:55:01 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@67-194-15-207.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:36 *prxq* .oO(ftr, the "we don't care" refers to undecidability of type inference in lisp) 22:57:25 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 22:58:21 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-153-103.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 22:58:21 -!- oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:58:48 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9518c5d.virtua.com.br] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:00:05 gkeith_glaptop_ [~gkeith@pool-108-20-97-221.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:05 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:02:16 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@pdpc/supporter/student/wormwood] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:06:24 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:07:52 lnostdal [~Lars@ti0030a380-dhcp0111.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 23:09:28 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has joined #lisp 23:10:07 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [~gkeith@pool-108-20-97-221.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:10:48 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:11:51 gkeith_glaptop_ [~gkeith@pool-108-20-97-221.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:25 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-21-212.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:13:58 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.226.67] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:15:41 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@75-173-95-58.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:16:16 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 23:17:02 wormwood [~wormwood@pdpc/supporter/student/wormwood] has joined #lisp 23:20:43 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75dc5c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:25:25 -!- Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:25:26 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 23:26:32 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.226.67] has joined #lisp 23:26:56 nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:05 Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 23:28:11 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:28:15 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [~gkeith@pool-108-20-97-221.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:28:57 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-070.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:58 dmiles [~dmiles@66-87-21-212.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:08 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483DAC0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:33:24 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-070.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:38:04 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:39:18 marsell [~marsell@120.20.245.66] has joined #lisp 23:40:42 oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:58 gkeith_glaptop_ [~gkeith@pool-108-20-97-221.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:02 -!- macobo [~Karl@233.24.190.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:43:04 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:45:19 -!- oconnore [~Eric@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:46:55 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-160-22-16.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:47:16 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:51:33 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has joined #lisp 23:51:33 -!- gtoast [~cdimara@208.106.22.18] has quit [Quit: gtoast] 23:53:04 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:53:04 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 23:53:25 Can anyone recommend me a package to turn sourcecode of multiple languages into highlighted html+css? 23:53:34 Like pasting services do 23:54:21 Xach: I didn't see the planet.lisp crawler request my atom.xml lately - I suppose it hit a 404 and backed off? 23:54:24 sea4ever [~daniel@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has joined #lisp 23:54:36 What's the limit of Common Lisp's number type? 23:54:48 sea4ever: integers are limited by your machine's memory 23:55:00 <_3b> phryk: colorize 23:55:10 machine integer limits are +most-positive-fixnum+ and +most-negative-fixnum+ 23:55:12 Oh, that's kind of cool. How are they implemented? I'm doing a research project on unbounded integers 23:55:16 same for -single-float and -double-float 23:55:20 Any resource that I can read about 'em? 23:55:32 sea4ever: every implementation has their own bignum scheme 23:55:45 I guess the cmucl and sbcl ones are historically pretty similar though (-: 23:56:15 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@remote.activestate.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:56:54 Trying to find an article on sbcl bignum implementation 23:57:06 for some historical giggles, check out http://www.jwz.org/blog/2008/03/most-positive-bignum/ (: 23:57:14 I don't think it's documented outside of source code (: 23:57:39 _3b: can i somehow (without writing a parser myself) get it di highlight python as well? 23:57:57 There's this paper on bignum implementation: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=319861 23:58:03 s/di/to/ 23:58:07 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [~gkeith@pool-108-20-97-221.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:58:23 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@67-194-6-151.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 23:58:49 phryk: if you dont hate python: http://pygments.org/ 23:58:52 I can mail it to you if you can't get past the ACM paywall. 23:59:38 <_3b> phryk: colorize is what paste.lisp.org uses, looks like it has an option for python, no idea how good it is though