00:04:12 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:04:30 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@pool-71-174-46-229.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:11 rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:17 -!- BrokenCog [~daniel@ip98-162-173-207.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:05:26 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:06:23 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:08:17 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:08:56 -!- steveg2 [~Steve@c-71-195-234-222.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:11:53 chee [~rabbits@fsf/member/chee] has joined #lisp 00:11:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ei1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:12:59 -!- chee [~rabbits@fsf/member/chee] has left #lisp 00:13:05 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-199-162.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:05 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-199-162.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:13:05 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 00:13:22 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:14:39 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@pool-71-174-46-229.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:19:39 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:21:57 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26:23 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:29:04 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:12 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-131-97.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:34:39 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 00:40:53 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:28 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:46:37 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:15 altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:14 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:42 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:55:43 -!- alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-126-82.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:03:40 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60B5A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:08:42 -!- deke [~deke@fl-71-54-185-16.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:09:58 alvis [~alvis@tx-71-2-126-82.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:27 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.22.70.125] has quit [Quit: marsell] 01:14:19 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:16:39 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:18:24 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:23:39 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@nc-71-55-67-254.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:51 pipping [~pipping@exherbo/developer/pipping] has joined #lisp 01:36:26 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-5-4.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:36:33 superflit_ [~superflit@71-33-153-24.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:33 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-149-129.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:38:34 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 01:39:08 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39:34 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 01:42:35 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.36.99] has joined #lisp 01:46:48 borkman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:21 -!- borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:49:03 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.154.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:49:44 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:52 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:49:52 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 01:56:14 topo [~topo@f053035129.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:56:45 topo_ [~topo@f053035129.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:58:39 -!- topo_____ [~topo@f053045112.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:59:11 -!- topobot [~topo@f053045112.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:59:29 -!- Soulman [~knute@175.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 02:00:26 Is there any way to force a (unsigned-byte 8) stream to be treated as a unicode character stream? 02:00:31 an* 02:00:50 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:02:36 Relatedly: Is there a way to get QL to dump the dependency tree of a system? 02:03:08 Ralith: You can use babel to convert your bytes into characters. 02:03:27 other way around actually! 02:03:31 Ralith: the alternative is to open the stream as a character stream encoded in some unicode encoding. 02:03:38 Ralith: yes, the other way too. 02:03:50 but yeah, presently trying to find out if I'm already pulling in babel or flexi-streams 02:04:16 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-131-97.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:24 this is a hunchentoot client stream; I believe that the encoding is formally unknown at creation time due to HTTP shenanagans 02:04:37 HTTP is a binary protocol. 02:05:00 right 02:05:10 but sometimes you want to write encoded text over it 02:05:21 That's where babel comes. 02:05:27 *Ralith* nod 02:05:29 thanks 02:05:32 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.36.99] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 02:05:33 any idea about the QL bit? 02:05:41 no 02:05:43 kk 02:06:06 (ql-dist:dependency-tree "hunchentoot") 02:06:22 awesome! 02:06:31 um 02:07:00 somehow CLOS seems to think I am passing nil to it. 02:07:32 Ralith: to dependency-tree? 02:07:36 yes. 02:07:45 try (ql-dist:dependency-tree (ql-dist:find-system "hunchentoot")) 02:08:00 oh wait 02:08:03 Ralith: you might find this macro interesting that I wrote: 02:08:08 and maybe you should install it first 02:08:21 I was trying it on my own system, which depends on hunchentoot; I guess it only works on QL systems? 02:08:27 yep 02:08:30 it only works on ql systems. 02:08:40 http://paste.lisp.org/display/124830 02:08:43 that seems odd, given that it's quite capable of identifying the dependencies of a non-QL system. 02:08:50 Ralith: no, it isn't. 02:08:52 Ralith: that is not odd 02:09:00 oh? 02:09:23 non-QL dependencies are an "addon" 02:09:33 RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@209-6-17-16.c3-0.nat-ubr1.sbo-nat.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:09:36 they aren't of the same kind, in other words 02:09:47 Ralith: it relies on the normal asdf look-as-you-need behavior, plus an error trap to catch systems that require installation from QL 02:09:54 ah! 02:09:55 neat. 02:09:59 loke: seems useful, thanks 02:10:07 Xach just made it too powerful :) 02:10:34 Wouldn't it support non-QL dependencies, you'd notice /nothing/ odd with that, eh? 02:10:36 Ralith: for ql systems, i traced asdf's look-as-you-need and stored the trace in the dist metadata so you can answer questions up front. 02:10:58 like "what is the dependency tree of foo" 02:11:09 was that even necessary? 02:11:09 *without* having to load foo and its dependencies on your end 02:11:30 to predict what you'll have to download before doing so, I suppose 02:11:38 Ralith: not absolutely necessary, no. 02:11:44 but useful. 02:11:58 thanks for the explanation 02:12:45 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.36.99] has joined #lisp 02:12:51 altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:03 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:16:49 What's a good statistics library written in Lisp (i.e. not GSLL or anything R) ? 02:17:00 borkman`` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:15 loke: I'm not sure there's really any reason for that to be a macro, come to think of it. 02:19:20 I'm willing to accept 'exists' as a synonym for 'good' 02:19:22 -!- borkman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:19:31 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483DCA2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:59 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@nc-71-55-67-254.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:20:31 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483D83F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:20:33 Ralith: It's been quite some time since I wrote it, it makes it prettier I guess. No need to use a LET form. But yeah. I see your point. 02:21:02 loke: look at blindglobe's projects on github. 02:21:14 the vast majority of my uses of the hunchentoot stream are cases where I'm passing it directly to another function 02:22:01 for that reason, as well as higher-order uses, it's nice to have aesthetic macros be thin wrappers around functions like this. 02:23:03 pkhuong: did you mean to address loderunner? 02:23:20 ralith: yes. I think. 02:23:42 either that or an odd coincidence 02:23:55 Ralith: right. 02:24:07 The macro I posted is actually part of a much larger thing that I use in a REST-based application. I include support for handling page access based on user groups and stuff like that, and the content of the functions are simply building structures that are passed (by the WITH-... macro) to CL-JSON for encoding 02:24:33 ah. 02:24:55 So I basically do something like (DEFINE-SECURE-JSON-HANDLER (permissiongroups...) (make-json-structure-here)) 02:25:09 then all that is directly mapped to a hunchentoot handler 02:25:38 cesarbp [~cbp@189.247.168.164] has joined #lisp 02:25:39 makes sense 02:26:49 -!- cesarbp [~cbp@189.247.168.164] has quit [Client Quit] 02:27:29 BrokenCog [~daniel@ip98-162-173-207.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:33 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.168.164] has joined #lisp 02:30:11 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:31:38 -!- timack [~timack@hlfx56-2b-23.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:31:53 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.36.99] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 02:33:20 Time to bring the kids to swimming lessons 02:33:25 have fun you guys :-) 02:33:41 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.36.99] has joined #lisp 02:34:03 pkhuong: thanks for confirming, looks like that's the only maintained option. guess I get to go figure out asdf stuff now. 02:34:07 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@nc-71-55-67-254.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:15 pjb: hm, I can't seem to find out how to use babel to wrap the output stream, only flexi-streams 02:34:44 in fact, there's a TODO in streams.lisp that seems to refer to exactly this usecase 02:36:26 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-153-24.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:36:49 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:37:10 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 02:38:07 RAVIOLIDIST [~rdist@unaffiliated/-rix/x-2047892] has joined #lisp 02:39:13 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has joined #lisp 02:40:09 -!- RAVIOLIDIST [~rdist@unaffiliated/-rix/x-2047892] has quit [Client Quit] 02:41:06 superflit [~superflit@71-33-153-24.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:14 -!- Cam [~i@unaffiliated/cam] has quit [Changing host] 02:45:14 Cam [~i@trivialand/staff/Cam] has joined #lisp 02:49:23 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3BD4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:56:02 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:56:20 altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:53 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:00:31 -!- antgreen [~user@12.232.236.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:06:07 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483DCA2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:12 acieroid` [~acieroid@wtf.awesom.eu] has joined #lisp 03:06:16 y3llow_ [~y3llow@111-240-170-138.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:32 housel` [~user@ip70-187-191-250.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:34 |3b|` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:07:03 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483DCA2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:03 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:03 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-155-194.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:03 -!- y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-170-138.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:03 -!- bieber [~quassel@162-78.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:03 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:04 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:04 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:04 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.182.139] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:04 -!- troydm [~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:04 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@YYMKL.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:04 -!- housel [~user@ip70-187-191-250.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:04 -!- mtd [~martin@chop.xades.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:04 -!- blumbri [~blumbri@c-67-181-176-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:04 -!- anonchik [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:04 -!- Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:04 -!- elliottjohnson [~elliott@elliottjohnson.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:04 -!- |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:04 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:05 -!- easyE [7XfJnNR7hh@panix2.panix.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:05 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:05 -!- dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:05 -!- hyoyoung [~morris@210.117.152.122] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:05 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:05 -!- Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:05 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@dD57708DC.access.telenet.be] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:05 -!- rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:05 -!- Borbus [borbus@85.17.58.106] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:05 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:07 -!- egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:07 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:07 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:07 -!- Quetzalcoatl_ [~Administr@cpe-75-186-5-185.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:07 -!- limetree_ [~ircuser@li147-249.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:07 -!- surrounder [~surrounde@d130031.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:07 -!- ``Erik [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:07 -!- acieroid [~acieroid@wtf.awesom.eu] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:07 -!- njan [~james@freenode/staff/njan] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:07:26 bieber [~quassel@162-78.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:07:45 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-183-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:07:54 -!- y3llow_ is now known as y3llow 03:08:21 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@167.sub-70-202-254.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 03:09:11 elliottjohnson [~elliott@elliottjohnson.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:11 Borbus [borbus@85.17.58.106] has joined #lisp 03:09:12 mtd [~martin@chop.xades.com] has joined #lisp 03:09:12 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 03:09:13 Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has joined #lisp 03:09:20 limetree [~ircuser@li147-249.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:09:26 surrounder [~surrounde@d130031.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 03:09:35 egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:09:40 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:09:42 rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has joined #lisp 03:09:43 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 03:09:50 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 03:09:59 nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:03 hyoyoung [~morris@210.117.152.122] has joined #lisp 03:10:04 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:10:14 nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:08 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 03:11:38 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 03:11:44 ``Erik [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:28 troydm [~troydm@unaffiliated/troydm] has joined #lisp 03:13:03 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:00 peterhil` [~peterhil@YYMKL.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 03:14:23 z0d [~z0d@q.notresp.com] has joined #lisp 03:14:23 -!- z0d [~z0d@q.notresp.com] has quit [Changing host] 03:14:23 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 03:14:30 dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 03:16:12 -!- frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:17:18 Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 03:17:23 DrForr [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:18:00 Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:58 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 03:20:32 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:32 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:20:32 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 03:21:02 Quetzalcoatl_ [~Administr@cpe-75-186-5-185.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:21:20 nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.182.139] has joined #lisp 03:21:26 anonchik [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has joined #lisp 03:21:35 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-155-194.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:42 Springheeled-J [~Spring-he@238.sub-70-202-231.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 03:21:47 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 03:21:51 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@167.sub-70-202-254.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:21:55 blumbri [~blumbri@c-67-181-176-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:05 -!- Springheeled-J is now known as SpringheeledJake 03:24:43 anvandare [~anvandare@dD57708DC.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 03:25:53 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:26:24 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: 1787] 03:39:21 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:39:53 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082A5B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:29 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-213-148.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:40:33 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:42:35 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-206-63.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:42:47 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-206-63.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:48 -!- daniel___ [~daniel@p5082996F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:44:53 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:47:33 What could make SBCL give USOCKET:NS-HOST-NOT-FOUND-ERROR in a compiled image and not in repl? 03:49:40 Modius: which platform? 03:49:53 SBCL/Ubuntu/64-bit 03:49:54 Tip build 03:50:46 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-183-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:50:55 Hmm odd - maybe something else is odd here - it's only failing in the thread not called from main - I need to dig further 03:52:20 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:59:50 -!- jfletcher [jf@jamesfletcher.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:02:21 Dang stupid - I had a hardcoded test config, which was being substituted for the file contents (worked fine in the original environment haha) 04:02:24 -!- olliee [~haellman@c80-217-120-177.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:02:49 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.36.99] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 04:03:07 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:03:51 rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:16 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@238.sub-70-202-231.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05:34 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:10:35 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-43568cfa.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:34 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 04:14:27 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-43568cfa.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:14:45 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-236-85.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:43 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-209-149.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:18:00 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:18:06 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA24D74.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:26:49 am0c [~am0c@58.234.251.169] has joined #lisp 04:29:05 -!- am0c [~am0c@58.234.251.169] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:30:02 am0c [~am0c@58.234.251.169] has joined #lisp 04:30:06 -!- am0c [~am0c@58.234.251.169] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:30:44 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:33:13 am0c [~am0c@58.234.251.169] has joined #lisp 04:34:52 mrSpec [~Spec@89-77-77-178.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 04:34:56 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-77-77-178.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 04:34:56 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 04:35:54 -!- am0c [~am0c@58.234.251.169] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:53:39 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.196.254] has joined #lisp 04:55:38 anyone have a parser lib to recommend? 04:57:18 coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:18 -!- coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:57:18 coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 04:58:18 Ralith: (ql:quickload :yacc) 05:02:41 -!- coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:05:45 looks nice 05:05:49 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:06:30 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-177-201-220.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:57 -!- |3b|` is now known as |3b| 05:10:20 -!- BrokenCog [~daniel@ip98-162-173-207.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:11:38 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 05:12:51 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:14:02 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:16:52 hm 05:18:36 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 05:22:37 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 05:26:49 -!- RomyEatsDrupal [~stickycak@209-6-17-16.c3-0.nat-ubr1.sbo-nat.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: RomyEatsDrupal] 05:33:01 Ralith: maybe yacc is not *too* nice, but it's relatively popular, and it increases the probability to get useful advices from people. 05:33:49 Ralith: parser-combinators provide another approach to parsing. (quicklispable, too) 05:37:00 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Quadrescence] 05:38:50 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:40:50 -!- syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:41:11 syrinx_ [~syrinx_@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 05:43:06 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:44:09 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 05:46:38 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:54 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.125.157] has joined #lisp 05:49:11 jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-61.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:49:41 -!- rme [rme@D90970AB.3C99FEF6.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:49:41 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.174.141] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:51:21 akovalenko: how does parser-combinators perform? 05:52:19 Ralith: never applied them to something performance-critical, sorry 05:52:31 'kay 05:52:34 thanks 05:56:59 is there any way to indicate to cl-yacc that two subrules must have equal value? 05:58:00 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:58:49 Ralith: don't understand the question (can you describe a minimal grammar where it comes up?) 05:59:16 anything vaguely XMLish where you want matched tags 05:59:21 blah 05:59:31 been forever since I studied parsers so I may be quite confused 06:00:50 I would let yacc build a tree for me, checking each node for unbalanced tags in the function assigned to production rule 06:00:59 (example coming soon..) 06:02:24 (defun combine (left inner right) (assert (equal left right)) (list left inner)) 06:03:09 then a production: (subtree (tag content tag) #'combine) 06:03:31 sorry, (subtree (open-tag content close-tag) #'combine) 06:03:40 hm 06:03:41 I think I see 06:04:01 the point is, do the balance check in your own functions 06:04:09 yeah 06:04:23 just getting a grip on the intended flow 06:04:51 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:05:24 Ralith: btw, if you want to parse xml or html -- ask ql:quicklisp-apropos for existing solutions 06:05:25 06:05:52 fortunately I know better than to try to do that myself! 06:06:11 mere bbcode here. 06:06:19 wanted to do better than the traditional regexp hack 06:06:33 a good reason and a good idea 06:15:03 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:16:24 hm 06:16:27 can yacc do mutual recursion? 06:16:51 *Ralith* isn't at all sure how to write his lexer 06:18:52 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 06:27:06 Ralith: yes it can (it's the whole point of preferring a real parser to regexps ) 06:27:54 right right 06:28:04 just vaguely remembering strange rules/pitfalls concerning that sort of thing 06:28:31 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-61.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:29:15 your grammar could be ambigious or too complicated (with bbcome, both things are unlikely, though) -- then yacc will warn you. 06:29:21 *bbcode 06:30:36 lexer should detect [tag], [/tag] and text (or atomic text pieces -- if bbcode is newline-sensitive, let it be "fragment w/o newlines" and "newline") 06:32:11 each call to lexer should return two values: (values type semantic-value) 06:32:53 where type is a grammatical "role" (like :tag-open), semantic-value is a "content" (like "Hello there") 06:34:12 I have an example -- a messy module, of about 2000 LOC, that parses a subset of (pre-processed) C 06:34:31 I think I am getting the idea 06:35:16 *that includes parser and lexer for a subset of C, of course 06:35:25 *...and many things unrelated 06:36:32 BTW, you may have [, ] and / as separate tokens instead of a "tag" token 06:36:32 akovalenko: how would things like [url=foo]...[/url] fit into that? 06:36:52 yeah, that seems necessary 06:39:01 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@207.190.0.11] has joined #lisp 06:39:59 fff 06:41:53 why does 06:41:54 (loop for d = (read-char stream) 06:41:54 until (and (or (eql d #\[) 06:41:54 (eql d #\])) 06:41:56 (unread-char d stream)) 06:42:01 argh was expecting that to one-line in irssi, sorry 06:42:26 why does http://paste.pocoo.org/show/481478/ never terminate 06:42:35 I'm a little confused about gensym in macros, if anyone can clarify for me a little 06:42:36 oh 06:42:38 unread-char returns nil 06:43:45 okay, that much works 06:44:22 From what I understand, every time the reader encounters a #: uninterned symbol, it considers it a completely different symbol. So if you use an uninterned symbol returned by gensym in more than one part of a macro, shouldn't the multiple occurences be considered different by the reader, causing the whole thing not to work? Obviously that's not an actual problem, so I'm guessing something is wrong with my understanding of uninterned 06:44:22 symbols... 06:44:41 bieber: macros are not read. 06:44:44 rather, their expansions 06:45:02 Oh 06:45:07 Ralith: maybe you should look at (quicklispable) "lexer" as well -- afair it's regexp-based; but I've never used it 06:45:23 lexing seems to be working now 06:46:13 Ralith: maybe it's time to define a simple grammar (some subset of what you want) and see how yacc works 06:46:16 So then if it's used in macro expansions, whatever is responsible for expanding the macros is feeding the interpreter multiple instances of what it considers the same symbol? 06:47:21 bieber: yes; if you have an uninterned symbol in your expanded source, it will be the same symbol all the way down 06:47:35 Okay 06:48:29 Does anyone have a link to something in-depth about how LISP handles symbols, exactly? Practical Common Lisp gets into it a little, but I'm really just getting enough from there to understand how to use them, not how they really work 06:48:58 bieber: btw, it's possible to reuse the same uninterned symbol, with #n= and #n# read macros 06:49:14 (eq #1=#:thing #1#) 06:49:17 => t 06:49:46 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-177-201-220.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:49:57 bieber: *exactly*? then of course, CLHS is the answer 06:50:38 Oh, I thought that was just a function reference 06:50:48 I guess there's a lot more there 06:51:07 bieber: you can _read_ CLHS from the start, it actually makes sense 06:51:39 (btw, #n# and #n= syntax work on any subforms. #2=(it is a circular list . #2#) ) 06:51:54 Thanks, I'll have to make my way through that once I've got the basics down better 06:51:59 Just getting started with LISP here 06:53:05 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 07:01:59 Xach: please don't forget to make a decision about CHIPZ for next QL update 07:02:10 akovalenko: huh, lexer doesn't use cl-ppcre? 07:02:36 Ralith: doesn't it? then it probably uses cl-regex. 07:02:45 yeah 07:02:50 I didn't know there *was* another regex lib! 07:02:52 Ralith: frankly, I don't recall what does it do 07:03:04 I think I'll just use ppcre directly, as I finally understand what's going on here 07:03:05 Ralith: maybe it /tries/ to use CL-REGEX, but fails. 07:03:09 everything works nicely, btw :) 07:03:10 -!- gcentauri [~gcentauri@76-85-193-191.cable.inebraska.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:03:13 thanks for the help 07:03:33 hm 07:04:45 akovalenko: I'm still having a hard time working out how to handle characters being special in some places but not others 07:05:44 I seem to get shift/reduce conflicts if I try to have meta-rules above string :/ 07:05:46 er 07:05:50 non-terminal symbols 07:06:46 (tag-value equals tag-value (curry 'concatenate 'string)) for example. 07:07:07 I guess precedence comes in now. 07:07:11 lhs of that production is ? 07:08:09 Ralith: declaring precedence and *associativity* (whichi is probably crucial here) may help 07:08:24 production? 07:08:59 production is "something" from (something (rule1 that defines it) (..rule2..) ...) 07:09:11 oh 07:09:13 tag-value 07:09:38 tag-value should be "tag-value tag-piece" or "tag-piece" 07:09:52 i.e. tag-piece should be factored out 07:10:35 then tag-value should be defined -- as being either tag-piece or tag-value then tag-piece 07:11:02 this way, no precedence and assoc will be needed 07:11:52 (whatever is possible to express with precedence and assoc is always possible to express without them by factoring out additional nonterminals) 07:12:25 that leaves me with *more* warnings :/ 07:12:47 try to swap tag-piece and tag-value 07:13:07 i.e. make tag-value right-recursive instead of left-recursive 07:13:31 *akovalenko* thinks that we'll have to look at your parser definition soon 07:13:34 now it's got a reduce/reduce between tag-value and tag-piece 07:13:37 *Ralith* just pastes it 07:13:56 http://paste.pocoo.org/show/481487/ 07:14:22 wait a moment 07:14:34 value-piece shouldn't refer tag-value 07:14:47 huh? 07:14:53 oh 07:14:54 misread you 07:14:55 tag-value is made of pieces (we express it with recursion) 07:15:04 yeah that makes mor esense now 07:15:05 but pieces are not made of tag-values 07:15:50 okay, no errors with (tag-value (tag-value value-piece (curry 'concatenate 'string))) 07:15:55 and (value-piece string equals) 07:16:18 now you see a (minor) downside of yacc -- when it complains about your grammar, it may be non-trivial to find an original cause 07:16:40 but now it's running into a wall when parsing a testcase 07:16:44 expecting no terminals 07:16:49 oh wait 07:16:50 obvious 07:16:51 no base-case. 07:18:02 okay, now the error is even less informative 07:18:25 Unexpected terminal EQUALS (value NIL). Expected one of: (NIL OPEN-BRACKET) 07:18:35 btw, I prefer escaped symbols like |[| and |]| to "meaningful" names like equals and bracket 07:18:52 add tag-value _right after_ equals 07:19:03 huh? 07:19:22 sorry, i'm confused.. 07:19:25 (I went with english names back when I was still sorting out the role of the lexer, to prevent confusion) 07:20:24 Ralith: can you paste what you currently have? 07:20:25 there shouldn't be a single state in this where it is only looking for an open bracket :/ 07:20:29 yeah 07:21:30 http://paste.pocoo.org/show/481488/ 07:22:06 string looks like a terminal, is it? 07:22:19 ah, i see 07:22:48 passing just "=" breaks it 07:23:13 oh 07:23:16 right 07:23:17 Ralith: how do you distinguish between string and value-piece? 07:23:26 it seems that it's impossible on the lexer level 07:23:31 I'm not sure what you mean 07:23:41 dbushenko [~dim@93.125.23.27] has joined #lisp 07:23:44 but in this case clearly the problem is that = is simply not legal in a string, which is what that is 07:24:08 Consider boo [boo=] -- lexer has no business of distinguishing outer and inner boo 07:24:25 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:24:43 ? 07:25:45 boo [boo=boo] boo [[=boo]] ... -- all these boos will necessary be lexed into something similar (whether you call it a piece or tag or string or bareword or something ) 07:26:28 yes 07:27:24 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-75-188.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:27:24 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-75-188.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:27:24 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:27:32 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 07:27:54 hold on 07:28:28 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:28:33 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:28:59 ..string consists of string-pieces, string-piece is a bareword | equals | any-other-char-which-is-neither-=-nor-word-char 07:29:46 argh I'm just making it worse 07:29:51 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:30:04 ..open-tag:: [ bareword = tag-value ] 07:30:48 ..string-piece is really something *other* than [, =, ], / 07:31:35 ..bareword:: one or more chars that are alpha-char-p 07:31:41 ..or alphanumericp 07:31:58 jesus christ 07:32:01 how do I keep doing this 07:32:11 every time I touch it, even to press undo, another conflict sprouts >.< 07:32:28 gaah 07:33:15 okay, back where I started 07:33:40 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 07:33:45 Trying to compile the osicat-posix C-bit on Solaris I get this: http://wklej.org/id/598732/  any hints how to deal with the errors? 07:35:00 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p4FE33F2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:02 antoszka: grep your /usr/include (?) for definition of "struct dirent", look at it and see what it has instead of d_fileno and d_type.. 07:35:06 Seems like a more or less common broken solaris compatibility problem. 07:35:31 Uhm. 07:35:55 akovalenko: okay, seems to be working :) 07:36:23 antoszka: d_fileno is probably d_ino 07:36:46 ino_t d_ino; /* "inode number" of entry */ 07:36:49 Yeah. 07:37:30 any hints on expressing that [ and ] can exist inside tag values? 07:37:48 akovalenko: don't see anything similar to d_type 07:38:24 antoszka: d_type is probably missing entirely 07:38:33 akovalenko: So it seems. 07:38:42 pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 07:38:42 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.14.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:40:20 Ralith: *balanced* [ and ] can exist? 07:40:53 ...hm 07:40:55 I see your point. 07:40:59 that would let it eat the entire input 07:41:06 Ralith: are there *tags* in values, or jast balanced ['s and ]'s ? 07:41:40 Ralith: btw, may value be quoted? "", '', etc? 07:41:41 not tags for the purposes of this parser. 07:41:49 yeah, quoting just occurred to me too 07:42:20 Ralith: then another question: are [] legal in an UNQUOTED value? 07:42:30 Lexer should take care of "" and '' 07:42:43 it doesn't seem feasible to have them be. 07:43:13 btw, is bbcode /specified/ anywhere, or is it just "whatever the PHP code in the wild happens to work with"? 07:43:39 bbcode is not a formal standard 07:43:46 there are some de-facto standard elements 07:44:38 of course, if I quote, then I need to handle escaped quotes, no? :/ 07:45:28 well, I can just lex backslash, and then add a rule for whatever can be scaped, I guess... 07:47:53 damn I'm glad I'm not trying this in regexp. 07:48:06 akovalenko: thanks for all the help; taking a break for now. 07:48:10 I think I have the gist 07:48:23 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-155-194.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:48:32 eyes_ [~eyes@unaffiliated/eyesismine] has joined #lisp 07:49:07 -!- eyes_ is now known as EyesIsServer 07:49:21 akovalen` [~user@95.72.172.36] has joined #lisp 07:49:46 -!- akovalenko [~user@95.73.220.203] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:49:55 -!- acieroid` is now known as acieroid 07:51:17 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 07:51:56 manuel_ [~manuel@pD9FDDE77.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:42 Ralith: perhaps it would be better to complete bbcode *reinvention* first, and then implement what you invented 07:52:49 Ralith: in two separate steps 07:52:55 -!- akovalen` is now known as akovalenko 07:55:58 reinvention? 07:56:01 as in, clearly specify it? 07:56:58 yes. maybe even start with simplified subset... at least with something that may be useful without amending specification in the middle of coding 07:57:49 i.e. when you're asked if \[tag\] is a tag or text, you should be able to answer _immediately_ : "according to what I have in mind, it's ..." 07:58:43 yeah 08:10:20 Cloud_ [~cbolano@189.247.168.164] has joined #lisp 08:10:23 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.168.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:11:16 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@207.190.0.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:11:52 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@207.190.0.11] has joined #lisp 08:17:57 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:18:42 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 08:21:39 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:24:22 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p4FE33F2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:25:19 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-177-201-220.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:19 njan [~james@freenode/staff/njan] has joined #lisp 08:25:34 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:27:07 kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-227-40.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:27:27 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:27:51 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 08:32:32 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:32:42 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:41:29 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 08:47:37 ngz [~user@80.105.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-122-110.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:54:32 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:56:04 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.56.193] has joined #lisp 08:56:29 marsell [~marsell@120.20.10.8] has joined #lisp 08:58:26 Is there a way to ask SLIME to prompt the user for input from Lisp, for e.g. providing an argument for a restart? 09:00:29 Ralith: prompt in the minibuffer? then there is.. 09:00:33 xlq_ [~apropos@89-168-177-213.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 09:00:40 that seems appropriate 09:01:49 Ralith: see SWANK::READ-FROM-MINIBUFFER-IN-EMACS 09:02:02 not exported? :/ 09:02:23 Ralith: (swank::read-from-minibuffer-in-emacs "Who are you? ") 09:02:31 yeah 09:02:47 Ralith: with SLIME, exporting doesn't really say too much :) 09:02:49 it's just nicer to use something you can reasonably expect to be stbale 09:02:52 oh? 09:03:19 Ralith: I'm tracking SLIME development for last ~1year or more 09:03:38 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:04:22 Ralith: and there seems to be no correlation of stability and external/internal symbols there :) 09:04:53 well, works nicely! 09:04:54 thanks 09:05:26 Ralith: specifically of swank::read-from-minibuffer-in-emacs, I'm sure that several "officially exported" symbols will die or change their behaviour before it's touched in any way 09:05:58 kk 09:09:19 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:09:49 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@203.110.240.205] has joined #lisp 09:09:52 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@203.110.240.205] has quit [Changing host] 09:09:52 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 09:11:48 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:13:21 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:14:09 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:16:08 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:17:12 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 09:18:12 dr9002 [6d782464@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.120.36.100] has joined #lisp 09:20:51 -!- Cloud_ [~cbolano@189.247.168.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:20:55 akovalenko: any idea why this works great, but dies if I uncomment quotable-special in quoted-piece? http://paste.pocoo.org/show/481528/ 09:21:13 Culiacan [minarquist@oooooo.massdeop.us] has joined #lisp 09:24:04 having anything at all in quotable-special triggers errors, weirdly 09:28:17 Ralith: how does it die? 09:29:38 produces numerous conflicts 09:30:05 Ralith: string piece may start with literal-special, yes? 09:30:18 *may *be* literal-special 09:30:25 yes 09:30:43 \" may make up a string, for example 09:30:50 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-057-227.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:19 Ralith: well, can't figure out by sight -- I'll try to compile it 09:34:56 well, good to know I'm beyond glaring mistakes, at least 09:35:17 Ralith: string-piece can be bareword, equals, etc 09:35:27 Ralith: quotable-special can be equals, etc.. 09:35:32 Ralith: see the problem? 09:35:48 apropos [~apropos@89-168-178-77.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 09:36:44 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:37:08 ah! 09:37:08 hm. 09:37:13 Ralith: plusp literal-special starts with escape, and quotable-special may *be* escape, eh? 09:37:42 (quoted-piece literal-special open-bracket close-bracket slash equals ) 09:37:59 escape shouldn't be there anyway 09:38:11 -!- xlq_ [~apropos@89-168-177-213.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:38:14 Ralith: then (quoted-piece literal-special quotable-special) 09:38:56 Ralith: (that will work if escape ceases to be a quotable-special) 09:39:18 quoted-piece needs to include non-specials too, though 09:39:48 Ralith: it seems to me that you'll be better off if you don't define nonterminals in terms of other nonterminals *too much* 09:39:50 okay, got it 09:40:04 I think. 09:40:05 *Ralith* tests 09:41:03 *akovalenko* was able to think without *running* your parser up to this point -- it's interesting what will come up next.. 09:41:37 yeah, looks like the only problem was things being in quotable-special that belonged exclusively in string-piece 09:42:15 next up is that I forgot to account in the grammar for strings being places other than the center of the nesting. 09:44:52 whiiiich is proving pretty tricky. 09:45:08 -!- dr9002 [6d782464@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.120.36.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:49:27 okay 09:49:44 it's not obvious to me why adding something as simple as (bbcode (bbcode expression) ()) 09:49:49 triggers errors 09:50:02 oh wait 09:50:10 gah maybe I should start over tomorrow with more sleep. 09:50:17 I keep making embarassing mistakes 09:50:25 ...I think? 09:53:22 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:53:54 no that should have worked. 09:56:02 I can practically remember this from my textbook :/ 09:56:10 Ralith: do you mean something like (bbcode (expression) (bbcode expression)) 09:56:10 (bbcode* () (bbcode)) 09:56:10 09:56:32 (where bbcode* may be empty, and bbcode mustn't) 09:57:13 I'm not sure why that would have any effect, and it doesn't seem to. 09:57:35 Ralith: paste new version again :) 09:58:05 http://paste.pocoo.org/show/481539/ 09:58:09 *Ralith* <3 xclip and wgetpaste 09:59:38 nha [~prefect@5-74.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 10:05:04 Ralith: haven't figure it out yet, but note that "two expressions in a row" already causes conflicts 10:05:45 Ralith: seems to be some ambiguity related to the "end of expression" concept 10:06:04 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:06:25 hm, good find 10:09:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:09:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 10:09:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:09:47 -!- nha [~prefect@5-74.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:11:43 Ralith: string is composed of string-pieces, expression is composed of strings 10:11:54 Ralith: hence the boundaries are ambigious 10:12:11 ahah 10:12:36 Ralith: seems that your string-piece can actually be used in place of string in your expression definition 10:12:55 then expression just consists of string-pieces and tags, and ambiguity goes away 10:13:16 yep :D 10:13:58 *akovalenko* still haven't run the parser.. 10:14:01 hm, doesn't work. 10:14:51 ...sometimes? 10:15:17 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:15:50 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-057-227.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:16:16 okay, this bug seems to follow clearly from the grammar: no string-pieces can go inside an outer but outside an inner set of tags 10:16:17 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 10:16:45 I think 10:16:58 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:17:26 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 10:18:25 it doesn't like stuff getting in between nested tag pairs at all :/ 10:20:30 MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-18-50.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:48 Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 10:22:39 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:25:56 -!- Culiacan is now known as Golliwog 10:26:15 -!- apropos [~apropos@89-168-178-77.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has left #lisp 10:27:05 -!- Golliwog [minarquist@oooooo.massdeop.us] has quit [K-Lined] 10:27:23 Amyn [~abennama@cac94-2-87-91-21-215.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 10:28:19 also broken: tags with no body 10:28:46 Culiacan [minarquist@0-dayz.exploitz.com.ar] has joined #lisp 10:28:48 -!- Culiacan [minarquist@0-dayz.exploitz.com.ar] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 10:29:15 Culiacan [minarquist@0-dayz.exploitz.com.ar] has joined #lisp 10:30:09 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:30:18 -!- Culiacan [minarquist@0-dayz.exploitz.com.ar] has quit [K-Lined] 10:31:18 hi there! So who's going to come to ECLM? :-) 10:32:51 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:33:22 okay, empty tags were easy to fix 10:39:36 ah, expressions need to be able to contain multiple expressions, of course 10:40:07 ...that was a very easy fix 10:41:28 woo mutual recursion 10:43:37 concave [~concave@c-24-118-48-38.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:28 churib` [~user@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 10:48:29 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:51:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:52:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:52:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-25-142.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 10:52:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:57:41 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.56.193] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 10:58:13 -!- Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:59:05 -!- manuel_ [~manuel@pD9FDDE77.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: manuel_] 10:59:16 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:04:16 -!- churib` is now known as gensym 11:09:18 kpreid_ [~kpreid@128.153.215.226] has joined #lisp 11:10:14 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:10:14 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 11:11:21 am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has joined #lisp 11:11:33 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 11:13:08 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:13:09 -!- kpreid_ is now known as kpreid 11:13:49 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:15:10 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:15:49 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:15:57 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:16:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:19:08 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:21:25 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 11:22:43 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:22:53 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 11:27:59 nefo [~nefo@221.238.99.251] has joined #lisp 11:27:59 -!- nefo [~nefo@221.238.99.251] has quit [Changing host] 11:27:59 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 11:43:06 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:43:34 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:47:08 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:47:15 topeak [~topeak@118.186.129.168] has joined #lisp 11:47:48 gko [~gko@42-73-163-251.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:14 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 11:48:23 -!- topeak [~topeak@118.186.129.168] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 11:48:58 topeak [~topeak@118.186.129.168] has joined #lisp 11:49:51 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:52 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:49:52 scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 11:52:15 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:53:04 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 11:54:24 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-227-40.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:56:10 akovalenko: it seems to work perfectly now; thanks for all the help :) 12:02:44 BrianRice` [~water@97-126-59-7.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:44 -!- BrianRice [~water@97-126-59-7.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:02:45 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 12:06:08 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:08:30 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 12:13:09 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.160.151] has joined #lisp 12:14:14 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:14:46 mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has joined #lisp 12:14:58 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 12:14:58 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:15:12 -!- gko [~gko@42-73-163-251.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: -a-] 12:24:47 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.20.10.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:26:43 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-131-97.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:30:23 lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 12:36:20 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-186-129.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:37:32 -!- ngz [~user@80.105.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:40:20 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@nc-71-55-67-254.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:40:25 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 12:47:38 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.160.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:47:52 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:47:58 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.226] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 12:51:37 -!- topeak [~topeak@118.186.129.168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:58:42 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 12:58:42 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.160.151] has joined #lisp 13:01:45 superflit_ [~superflit@71-33-178-18.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:23 -!- superflit [~superflit@71-33-153-24.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:03:24 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 13:03:27 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 13:04:16 manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDDE77.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:01 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:53 -!- Cam [~i@trivialand/staff/Cam] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:15:12 pnq [~nick@AC821C24.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:16:34 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:18:28 what would be my current best bet as a test framework. i used to use 5am, but it seems like some people find it to be too slow. as there are many available, i wonder which one should receive my attention. frameworks available in quicklisp are a plus for me. 13:20:28 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-199-162.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:20:28 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-199-162.static.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:20:28 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 13:20:56 madnificent: there's some replacement for 5am that fixes some issues, but I don't remember the name now 13:21:01 github search might help 13:22:15 https://github.com/adlai/Eos ? 13:22:29 ah, sounds like it 13:22:38 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.160.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:23:22 is eos considered stable now? last time i checked i was advised to wait for it just a tad longer :) 13:24:02 actually, i think adlai was involved in it, has anyone heard from him? 13:24:08 -!- dbushenko [~dim@93.125.23.27] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:32:56 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-122-110.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:33:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-122-110.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:33:51 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.56.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:34:27 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.226] has joined #lisp 13:34:36 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:01 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.212.185] has joined #lisp 13:35:03 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-164-107.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:35:48 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.160.151] has joined #lisp 13:36:13 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 13:38:26 -!- concave [~concave@c-24-118-48-38.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:42:47 aliao [~user@115.50.155.140] has joined #lisp 13:43:38 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:43:43 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.160.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:44:34 -!- manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDDE77.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:45:07 manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDDE77.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-122-110.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:50:40 -!- aliao [~user@115.50.155.140] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:55:53 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-183-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 13:57:55 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:58:05 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 14:01:40 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 14:02:21 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-161-45.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:55 Daev [~KAPITAL@nc-71-55-67-254.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:12 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-192-20.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:08:47 -!- pnq [~nick@AC821C24.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:11:24 madnificent: too slow ? 14:16:09 'morning 14:18:30 hello Fade 14:20:19 heya, fe[nl]ix 14:22:21 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:23:29 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-192-20.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:23:30 altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:33 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 14:27:54 vjacob [~vjacob@78-105-184-157.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:28:16 madnificent: you should write your own test framework, because as Hraban says, with every extra package [you] decide to use in [your] project [you] run additional risk of depending on a project that will eventually be orphaned. 14:28:46 Let's nominate Hraban Troll of the Year. 14:37:35 replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:38:39 -!- blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-43568cfa.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:38:46 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-43568cfa.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:41 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-192-20.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:48:08 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:48:23 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-192-20.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:49:17 -!- loderunner [~loderunne@adsl-074-229-197-048.sip.mco.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:50:51 hunk1974 [xybnod@app6.chatmosphere.org] has joined #lisp 14:51:26 pjb: :D 14:52:27 hi all 14:52:29 fe[nl]ix: can't quite remember what it was exactly, but running the same tests under various circumstances could apparently take a while. i never encountered it, but i rarely test my lisp code sufficiently either. 14:52:33 helly hunk1974 14:52:43 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-183-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:53:13 hi madnifficent 14:54:29 rwiker [~rwiker@187.80-202-32.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:54:58 olliee [~haellman@c80-217-120-177.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:55:01 -!- hunk1974 [xybnod@app6.chatmosphere.org] has left #lisp 14:56:53 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:56:59 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.56.193] has joined #lisp 14:57:22 madnificent: I've used Eos for my test stuff so far. It's pretty fast on implementations that compile fast, iirc. 14:57:36 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 15:01:12 for the record: i haven't ran into performance problems myself. i guess Eos will be it. 15:05:07 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@207.190.0.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:07:01 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@187.80-202-32.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:08:18 madnificent: the main difference between eos and 5am is fewer dependencies. 15:09:10 madnificent: by default 5am compiles tests when running them, if you find that slow you can use :compile-at :definition-time 15:09:10 see https://gitorious.org/iolib/iolib/blobs/master/tests/file-paths-unix.lisp 15:09:53 fe[nl]ix: that probably renders the argument mute. for the record, i haven't encountered issues myself, but it seems dumb to pick a framework which isn't on par with the others (but 5am seems to be on par) 15:13:19 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-213-148.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:16:26 nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:08 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-79-17.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:22:19 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-86-22.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:22:23 herr doktor tarver has released Shen 1.7 15:22:33 have any of you played with it? 15:25:48 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 15:26:14 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:30 -!- lisplearner [~lisplearn@ip68-5-4-32.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: IRC webchat at http://irc2go.com/] 15:27:46 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 15:27:46 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Client Quit] 15:27:57 FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 15:28:26 karswell [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:31:51 seangrove [~user@114.205.211.236] has joined #lisp 15:32:36 Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:54 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:34:25 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 15:35:27 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:37:10 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-158-66.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:37:21 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-98-226.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:58 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:39:17 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Client Quit] 15:39:32 BlankVerse [~pankajm@ec2-184-73-146-129.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 15:41:27 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:41:43 Ralith: For parsing, you might like to investigate https://github.com/nikodemus/esrap and http://common-lisp.net/~dcrampsie/smug.html . Haven't used them but they look promising! 15:41:50 -!- FreeArtMan [~FreeArtMa@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:42:01 smug is pretty sweet. 15:42:13 gcentauri [~gcentauri@76-85-193-191.cable.inebraska.com] has joined #lisp 15:42:52 smug is pretty sweet as a starting point. 15:43:00 I find myself adding/changing a lot of stuff when actually using it. 15:43:11 Packrat parsing as performed by esrap seems to map pretty much one-to-one and intuitively to the recursive descent parsers I've been writing manually... 15:43:34 I think drewc had planned to extend it; he was hurt in a boatyard accident in july, so hasn't been doing anything lately. 15:43:58 oh no 15:44:02 is he doing okay? :( 15:44:20 he's back on the boat, and by all accounts improving daily. 15:44:29 one thing I'm trying to do with smug is making it nicer at error reporting. 15:44:34 he's on a shorter work hours schedule. 15:44:49 are you working out of github? 15:44:53 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@ec2-184-73-146-129.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:44:54 it's a bit annoying that smug just goes "nil" when something goes wrong -somewhere-, for the most part. 15:45:01 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 15:45:19 Fade: no. My copy of smug was pulled in before the project was even on github. Have things improved significantly since the lisppaste? 15:45:40 I don't know. the github project is a complete system. 15:45:45 it runs and loads out of asdf. 15:45:53 I added error handling to smug to allow it to spit out informative messages. 15:46:01 I've only played with it in trivial experiments. 15:47:22 it doesn't look terribly different, no. 15:47:36 there's a couple of useful parsers in there that aren't in the lisppaste, though. 15:48:04 rme [~rme@50.43.174.141] has joined #lisp 15:48:20 yeah. I was hoping that smug represented a new era of drew-ware that included docs. ;) 15:48:35 bahahaha no :D 15:48:53 his systems are tight, but usually completely undocumented. :) 15:49:18 hm. Actually, it looks like his smug.org expanded a bit on the webpage. 15:50:11 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:50:33 well, he's usually pretty good about accepting patches that make sense to him. :) 15:50:39 logging sounds like a good addition. 15:51:27 I might do that once my code's a bit more ironed out. 15:52:14 I basically extended MAYBE and added an EITHER parser, both of which are able to handle errors signaled by FAIL. 15:52:42 cool 15:52:51 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:03 so you can do something like (either (parse-lisp) 'c-code-detected) 15:53:20 and return an appropriate error message 15:54:12 before I read his exposition on monads around smug, I didn't understand monads. 15:54:20 it's a super interesting system. 15:54:37 I still don't understand monads. 15:54:53 well, I understand them to the extent they're used in smug. 15:55:08 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.56.193] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 15:55:11 haskell is still pretty opaque in a lot of respects. :) 15:55:38 I know I know, they're just monoids in the functor category 15:55:40 or whatever the quote is 15:55:59 Best introduction to monads EVER for Lispers: http://dorophone.blogspot.com/2011/04/deep-emacs-lisp-part-2.html 15:56:12 -!- lbc [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56:18 yeah, that tutorial references drew's 15:57:21 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:57:49 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 15:58:00 Oh, sorry, actually it was part 1: http://dorophone.blogspot.com/2011/04/deep-emacs-part-1.html 15:58:10 bookmarked :) 15:58:28 The part 2 was pretty thoroughly uninteresting to me, IIRC. 16:00:11 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.56.193] has joined #lisp 16:01:46 -!- manuel_ [~manuel_@pD9FDDE77.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: manuel_] 16:02:55 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:03:59 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:03:59 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.196.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:04:31 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 16:05:09 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-234-128-70.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:31 ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:09 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:14:47 Cloud_ [~cbolano@189.247.168.164] has joined #lisp 16:15:42 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 16:17:07 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.168.164] has joined #lisp 16:19:12 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 16:23:38 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-183-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:25:48 -!- vjacob [~vjacob@78-105-184-157.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:25:55 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 16:36:25 -!- Cloud_ [~cbolano@189.247.168.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:41:54 tritchey [~tritchey@173-161-75-105-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:01 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-122-110.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:45:11 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45766193.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:11 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:54:46 -!- Daev [~KAPITAL@nc-71-55-67-254.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:57:17 Daev [~KAPITAL@nc-71-55-67-254.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:31 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:57:58 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 16:58:09 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:58:34 -!- nanoc is now known as le0nidas 16:58:45 -!- le0nidas is now known as nanoc 17:05:01 easyE [LRJiZiLYWi@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 17:05:19 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 17:07:25 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:08:17 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:10:37 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-161-45.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:10:48 ngz [~user@80.105.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:30 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:13:22 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:16:05 psilord [~psilord@76.201.144.59] has joined #lisp 17:16:13 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:15 drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 17:17:33 noname_ [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:57 Cloud_ [~cbolano@189.247.5.16] has joined #lisp 17:18:16 frhodes [~frhodes@168-103-96-233.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:12 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 17:20:16 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.168.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:21:55 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:24:39 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:25:58 -!- Cloud_ is now known as cesarbp 17:29:39 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:31:59 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:36:30 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 17:36:47 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.56.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:39:46 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-161-45.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:43 pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 17:47:06 vjacob [~vjacob@78-105-184-157.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:48:31 Hello, i need to do some json, and cliki tells me there are at least 4 libraries for that, is one of them the clear community favorite or clearly superior? Or should i row a dice? 17:49:59 Cloud_ [~cbolano@189.247.5.16] has joined #lisp 17:51:38 hmm 17:51:46 yason is lightweight and straightforward 17:53:25 cl-json is downloaded a lot 17:53:25 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.247.5.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:53:26 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@ram94-12-78-234-200-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:54:15 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:57:46 hm, quickloading both trows an error, because they both have "JSON" as nicknames, how does one resolve nickname conflicts? 17:58:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-53-119.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 17:58:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-53-119.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 17:58:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:58:30 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:58:48 oh, excuse me, both yason and st-json hase "JSON" as a nickname 17:59:16 -!- sunscreen [~sunscreen@unaffiliated/factor45] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:59:17 i think 18:00:13 dealing with packages with very similar names with a small font is hard :) 18:00:47 -!- vjacob [~vjacob@78-105-184-157.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:01:14 timack [~timack@142.177.109.92] has joined #lisp 18:02:07 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 18:04:40 Cam [~i@trivialand/staff/Cam] has joined #lisp 18:13:54 benny` [~benny@i577A1495.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:14:39 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2AA7.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:15:42 -!- benny` is now known as benny 18:16:20 -!- psilord [~psilord@76.201.144.59] has left #lisp 18:20:06 Vivitron` [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:06 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:22:07 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:25:08 -!- Vivitron` [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:27:49 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 18:28:57 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 18:33:19 altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:44 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:41:56 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-161-45.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:42:55 lispm [~lispm@g224047176.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:43:55 -!- lispm [~lispm@g224047176.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:44:08 lispm [~lispm@g224047176.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:51:36 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-016-052.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:38 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:02:49 -!- ngz [~user@80.105.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:06:54 situ [~quassel@223.191.94.150] has joined #lisp 19:09:41 -!- situ [~quassel@223.191.94.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:24 pavelludiq: jsown is the fastest (i don't know, i'm just trying to promote my own lib) 19:20:21 -!- billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:21:36 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 19:22:41 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-016-052.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:24:31 madnificent, a fifth option doesn't really help, but thank you :) 19:25:15 urandom__ [~user@p548A2581.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:58 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-161-45.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:38 -!- Cloud_ is now known as cesarbp 19:28:42 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:30:37 this is somewhat off-topic, but I'd like to bounce a bunch of design questions off the smart folks here 19:30:41 I need to lay out the architecture for an app that needs to keep a DB as secure from unauthorised access as possible, which means a physical key (crypto file on a usb stick + passphrase), but it ALSO needs to serve data and processing results to a variety of clients communicating with it over public network 19:31:13 does anyone feel smart about such a topic, and/or know people who are experienced with whom I could ask in detail about it? 19:31:58 s/with// 19:32:17 mathrick: the major problem with security is that /everyone/ feels smart about it :-) 19:32:28 akovalenko: I don't! 19:32:41 so that's everyone - 1 at least 19:33:13 moreover, I'm *certain* I'm not smart about it enough to attempt doing it on my own 19:33:35 (the problem description as stated seems too vague. I could say that I've "done something similar", but it's probably not really similar..) 19:35:19 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-181-089.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:05 akovalenko: the app in question is an industrial process tracking and automatisation one, and it needs to do a bunch of data acquisition from clients such as smartphone app reading barcodes and parameters from samples, as well as data mining for overall statistics, and also a bunch of tracking and visualisation for customers who want to access the data about their samples with the browser 19:36:47 but the guiding principle is that data WILL be stolen by bad guys, because the customers personally knows people who were victim to data theft 19:37:06 so I want to secure and compartmentalise everything as much as possible 19:39:28 akovalenko: I'd like to avoid having to host my own machines as much as possible, and avoid duplicating code, but I also assume that any machine I don't physically control is untrusted 19:39:30 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-158-66.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41:01 don't store anything on the clients 19:41:40 yes, of course 19:42:05 -!- dfox [~dfox@2001:470:9d8f:0:4261:86ff:fe8e:8446] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:42:07 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45766193.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:43:02 mathrick: the only attack scenario that has anything to do with *both* network and local security is a remote root exploit, followed by physical HDD theft *by the same attacker* 19:43:33 but I also want to have the DB encrypted and only unlocked by someone who owns the keyfile USB stick and knows the passphrase, and it needs to be redone every time the server starts 19:43:53 -!- acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:44:20 put the DB on an encrypted file-system 19:44:23 akovalenko: well, yes, but I don't know how to transmit the key securely to a remote machine 19:44:29 fe[nl]ix: same problem 19:45:13 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-181-089.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:45:13 mathrick: if you don't trust the data center where the machine will work, doing it safely seems to be impossible 19:46:14 mathrick: need to think more about it, but it's a recurring theme, and I seem to recall several discussions among security experts -- with the same conclusion each time. 19:46:47 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:54 mathrick: you go on site and install the OS 19:47:17 akovalenko: it's more that I don't trust my app after it goes down. But if I lock it down so that the only kind of communication with the outside world is dumb data transfer (plus accompanying authentication), I can ensure the key transfer is secure because it happens over a link I control physically 19:47:41 ie. I reduce the attack surface of the code portion that is able to access the unencrypted data 19:48:18 -!- lispm [~lispm@g224047176.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 19:48:43 that's how it seems to me anyway 19:49:04 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:49:21 this is all moot if you don't trust the guy who has access to the hw 19:49:31 encryption keys can be stolen from memory while the machine is live 19:49:35 I do need to trust the data centre at some point, obviously, but my concern is that the box that is physically secured should not be hackable remotely 19:49:48 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 19:50:35 mathrick: I'm just trying to find some point of *intersection* between remote and local security. 19:50:37 xristos: yes, of course. I want to guard against a remote attacker being able to hijack them by compromising the code 19:50:45 mathrick: use some form of MAC, like selinux 19:51:15 fe[nl]ix: hmm, how'd that help me? 19:51:16 selinux has had issues in the past and configuration is nightmare 19:51:31 get professional advice from ppl who do this every day 19:51:46 yeah, I'm basically looking for those people now 19:51:53 I just don't really know where to start 19:51:59 akovalenko: okay, lemme try to rephrase it 19:52:39 xristos: for one-application machine selinux is feasible, but I doubt that it can buy too much against a *targetted* attack in this case 19:53:33 akovalenko: given that the weakest link in security is pretty much always the human factor, and that automated selinux configs are useless, i don't have a lot of faith in it 19:54:06 akovalenko: the app has two core sections: one is encrypted DB and code that accesses it, which needs to have the encryption key. The other is the processing part which does all kinds of operations on the data, communication with the clients, etc. 19:55:06 akovalenko: now I want to ensure that the code which has access to the key cannot be hacked except by gaining physical access to both the data store and the key store (and also stealing the passphrase to the key) 19:55:22 mathrick: userspace encryption seems to make things worse here -- now it becomes possible to steal your key just by breaking your app, remote root is not needed 19:55:52 the code that accesses the key should better be the kernel 19:56:07 so the DB part should not expose anything remotely except a completely dumb protocol that only sends authorisation requests and bytes back and forth 19:56:40 akovalenko: I'm open to anything that makes it more secure 19:57:02 mathrick: you seem to want formal verification 19:57:10 haha good luck with that 19:57:13 in that case CL is not the best choice 19:57:32 fe[nl]ix: nah, I want a design verification by people who actually know about security 19:57:34 ie. not me 19:58:12 mathrick: my employer could be of service to you if you are looking to spend some money 19:58:20 akovalenko: may I ask what it is that you have done that seemed similar? 19:59:01 xristos: possibly, who's your employer and what kind of money are we talking about? 19:59:03 now it doesn't seem too similar, as I expected :) 19:59:46 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:59:54 mathrick: email sales@immunityinc.com, describe your situation and ask for a quote 20:00:01 Is there any way to specify the order in which arguments are passed to the :test function for sequence functions (like assoc)? 20:00:03 akovalenko: ok, good I didn't expect an exhaustive answer immediately 20:00:05 mathrick: you said "I want to ensure that the code which has access to the key cannot be hacked except by gaining physical access to both the data store and the key store" 20:00:21 LiamH: lambda 20:00:32 fe[nl]ix: yes 20:00:37 LiamH: it's in the spec. 20:00:56 mathrick: that sounds like formal verification, i.e. it's not enough to use the right algorithms but you also nee to check that the implementation is immune to side-channel attacks, etc... 20:01:19 pkhuong: where? 20:01:49 mathrick: lambda? 20:02:04 LiamH: 20:02:43 fe[nl]ix: yes, obviously, but I don't expect it to be formally bulletproof, because that's unrealistic, just expose as little attack surface as possible 20:02:47 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 20:03:08 LiamH: (defun yxxy (test) (lambda (a b) (funcall test b a))) 20:04:02 LiamH: (yxxy 'member) => a closure that is like two-arg (member), but with args reversed 20:04:15 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:19 fe[nl]ix: ie. I want to be reasonably confident that the privileged portion cannot be hijacked except by getting physical access, and make it as small as possible, offloading everything that can be offloaded to the non-privileged portion, which can reside on another box perhaps 20:04:34 s/can/should/, really 20:04:42 So the standard says that O is the first argument and Ei is the second? 20:04:55 or perhaps be run in a completely locked down environment 20:05:16 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:05:17 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has joined #lisp 20:05:55 LiamH: yes -- the natural order of test function arguments is like that 20:05:55 20:06:08 (and it's specified to be fixed) 20:06:23 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-177-201-220.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:06:33 akovalenko: OK, so then the use of lambda to swap them makes sense to me; I didn't realize the order was mandated. 20:06:53 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:07:56 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-179-168.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:56 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-179-168.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:07:56 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 20:08:12 xristos: man, your website has truly tiny fonts. Are only people with perfect eyesight eligible for your services? :) 20:08:24 mathrick: perhaps the most important is not to introduce holes in process of making things "more secure". I've seen it happening in real life a couple of times.. 20:08:38 akovalenko: could you elaborate? 20:08:52 mathrick: it's not technically _my_ website but they're aware of the issue ;p 20:09:11 xristos: "you" as in Immunity Inc. 20:09:29 I can use y'all if that makes it less ambiguous :) 20:12:15 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.174.141] has quit [Quit: rme] 20:13:48 Trying to implement a thread-safe way to execute a function after a counter has been incremented n times. Does this seem reasonable? http://paste.lisp.org/display/124845 20:14:05 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 20:14:10 mutexes, semaphores, etc. are all still very new to me 20:14:53 austinh: you'll have to define "thread-safe" in more detail 20:15:12 what are you doing and what are the threads? 20:15:19 austinh: and only called once? 20:15:40 I'm not worried about the function being wrapped. Only that the counter is updated and checked safely. 20:15:42 Golliwog [minarquist@i.am.pr0.us] has joined #lisp 20:15:55 pkhuong: Yes, only once. 20:15:56 mathrick: on what I've seen personally? people were using (russian standard, symmetric) Gost28147-89 encryption, and instead of just *using* it, they added layers and layers of it for "improved security" -- and at some point they were giving away some key bits accidentally, when the intent was to "protect" some 16-bit value that was easy to bruteforce anyway 20:16:05 austinh: if so, then yeah, it's fine. 20:16:28 pkhuong: Thanks! 20:16:40 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:51 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:16:57 *austinh* spent the morning reading memory-barriers.txt before he realized he didn't need anything like that 20:16:57 -!- Golliwog [minarquist@i.am.pr0.us] has quit [K-Lined] 20:17:31 akovalenko: ah. Well, yeah, I know enough not to mess with crypto. What I'm after right now is just the high-level architecture to ensure that I don't end up exposing myself to MitM inherently, or something like that 20:17:44 mathrick: as of your case -- e.g. we've seen that you may be going to use some custom user-level solution in your app instead of kernel-based encrypted filesystems available out of the box... 20:17:51 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.125.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:18:19 -!- scrimohsin [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:19:13 akovalenko: that is a good point, but what I don't think I have mentioned is that I'd also like to have master/slave keys if possible, though now that I think of it, it probably doesn't make sense if I have the DB box physically secured anyway 20:19:33 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:20:33 akovalenko: I guess an encrypted FS + minimal kernel with userspace that boots directly into my app wouldn't be a bad approach, and it'd save me a lot of crypto 20:20:47 -!- noname_ is now known as na[ii] 20:20:50 oudeis [~oudeis@109-186-57-55.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 20:24:00 mathrick: if you control server and clients the best thing is to use SSL with your own CA, and limit ciphers to a very small set 20:24:06 ikki [~ikki@189.247.0.228] has joined #lisp 20:24:28 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:20 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 20:25:22 fe[nl]ix: at least some of the clients will be browsers, but these are not supposed to have access to anything but a small subset of the data 20:28:56 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:29:46 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:30:03 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-164-107.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:31 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 20:32:46 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-212-183.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:46 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-212-183.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:32:46 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 20:33:39 -!- altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:34:23 Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:59 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-48-52.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:27 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:39:28 -!- seangrove [~user@114.205.211.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:39:57 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:42:16 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:42:46 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 20:46:04 acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 20:47:03 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-178-132.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:04 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-178-132.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:47:04 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 20:58:09 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-183-74.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:43 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@c-98-217-188-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 21:14:26 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109-186-57-55.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:14:43 mephisto_ [~mephisto@69-165-217-17.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:41 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:21:23 ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:47 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.121.58] has joined #lisp 21:21:50 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@163.sub-75-203-237.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 21:23:23 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:23:52 rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:40 loderunner [~loderunne@adsl-074-229-197-048.sip.mco.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:45 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:30:48 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-183-74.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:30:59 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:31:05 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-183-74.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:57 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 21:34:43 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-183-74.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:37:01 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:38:23 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:40:08 -!- timack [~timack@142.177.109.92] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:40:48 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:34 wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:51 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-18-50.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:02:07 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-54-12.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:02:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:07:19 marsell [~marsell@120.20.196.177] has joined #lisp 22:07:26 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@163.sub-75-203-237.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:09 the rabbit hole is deep! 22:10:16 *wbooze* echoes from the rabbit hole! 22:10:22 lol 22:10:40 didn't touch the bottom yet..... 22:15:58 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@163.sub-75-203-237.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:29 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.121.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:20:31 rme [~rme@50.43.174.141] has joined #lisp 22:21:39 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-178-238.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 22:21:45 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:22:05 meep meep i'll tell alice too when i met her meep........ 22:22:11 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-161-45.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:22:15 lol 22:24:13 seangrove [~user@114.205.211.236] has joined #lisp 22:26:36 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:26:38 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-136-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:27:41 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-136.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:27:55 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-136.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:28:28 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-136.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:24 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:29:58 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:30:29 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-136.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:30:37 ngz [~user@80.105.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:02 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-136.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:31:35 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-136.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:35:04 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-5-4.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:00 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@163.sub-75-203-237.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:35 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 22:49:04 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:36 -!- Intensity [5slrovgLJf@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:55:23 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:29 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-183-74.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:24 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:44 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:24 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:07:04 vjacob [~vjacob@78-105-184-157.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:08:18 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-161-45.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:21 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@173-161-75-105-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 23:09:52 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-183-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:15:52 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@43.sub-75-253-247.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 23:16:03 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@43.sub-75-253-247.myvzw.com] has left #lisp 23:16:32 altsrid [~altsrid@S010678ca39ff0146.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:56 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@69-165-217-17.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:51 gcentaur1 [~gcentauri@76-85-193-191.cable.inebraska.com] has joined #lisp 23:26:19 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:28:40 SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@12.sub-75-224-44.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:29 -!- gcentauri [~gcentauri@76-85-193-191.cable.inebraska.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:29:51 -!- ngz [~user@80.105.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:32:17 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 23:32:50 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@87.246.58.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:08 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-183-74.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:34:48 tritchey [~tritchey@173-161-75-105-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:01 Intensity [FA3dBcb7Yo@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 23:35:24 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 23:35:32 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-183-74.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:20 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@173-161-75-105-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:36:26 -!- SpringheeledJake [~Spring-he@12.sub-75-224-44.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:31 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:37:17 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:38:29 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-183-74.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:40:36 xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.160.151] has joined #lisp 23:40:49 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:15 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:48:11 deke [~deke@fl-71-54-185-16.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:55 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-18-161-45.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:52:47 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:53:01 ericklc [~ikki@189.247.155.141] has joined #lisp 23:53:11 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.0.228] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:58:15 tritchey [~tritchey@173-161-75-105-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp